| DistroWatch Weekly
|DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 390, 31 January 2011
Welcome to this year's fifth issue of DistroWatch Weekly! The growing popularity of Arch Linux is reflected not only by the interest the distribution generates in online blogs and forums, but also by a growing number of derivatives that build on its solid foundations. One of them is Chakra GNU/Linux, a desktop-oriented live CD with KDE as the preferred desktop environment. Jesse Smith takes a recent version for a ride and discovers that it may still need some work before Chakra can be considered stable and mature. The feature story is followed by a brief news section that covers the much-publicised meeting of Linux distribution developers about a distro-agnostic application installer, gives links to several blog posts about the ongoing FUDCon, the Fedora developer conference, and presents a talk by the current Debian project leader who answers a question about why we should care about the world's largest Linux distribution project. Also in this issue, a quick tutorial about using chroot for a common task, the introduction of Turnkey Linux, and the regular sections about upcoming releases and new distributions. Happy reading!
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|Feature Story (by Jesse Smith)
First impressions of Chakra GNU/Linux 0.3.1|
Despite receiving several requests for a Chakra Linux review, it took me a while to get motivated to write one, mostly due to the project's website. Oh, it's attractive enough and well laid out and there's a wiki and a forum. The site didn't appear to be missing anything, but two things raised warning flags right away. First, the website claims Chakra is alpha stage software and I usually like to wait until after a project drops the alpha/beta/rc designation before I try it. The other warning flag was raised upon reading the Frequently Asked Questions section of the site. (Or rather one of the FAQ sections, there's another in the Wiki.) There are just three questions and answers presented regarding the reason for Chakra's existence and its ease of use. Each of the answers strikes me as being unusually defensive. For instance, in response to a question about whether Chakra is user-friendly we're told that "in contrast to many other distributions, Chakra does not hide the system under some obscure 'administrative layer' (automated scripts, bloated front-ends, funky daemons etc)". The statement ends with: "However, newcomers to Chakra must expect to read and have a do-it-yourself approach to just about everything; anything less and they will be disappointed. We empower you, and you must learn to handle that :-)".
To be clear, I'm not specifically complaining about just the Chakra team, they happen to be one project in a line-up which seem to think it's a good idea to respond to their users in a passive-aggressive manner. Apparently users who don't like Chakra either don't read enough or can't handle being empowered. Really, I'd be much happier if they simply acknowledged their project is targeting more advanced users. Additionally the FAQ tells us that users of "tons of Gtk applications" won't find a good fit with Chakra because "Chakra is a GTK+-free distro", though we're not told why the project isn't GTK-friendly. There is one aspect of the project which intrigued me and that is Chakra claims to be a semi-rolling release distro. The idea seems to be the developers will provide a stable base (the kernel & X) and end-user applications will receive regular updates. This could be a good idea as it would allow users to keep peace with the latest and greatest without worrying about their underlying system breaking.
Moving on to the technology itself, Chakra is downloadable as a 686 MB ISO. We begin our experience of the live CD with a graphical boot menu where we can select our preferred language. From there we're given a variety of boot options, including booting graphically, booting graphically on older machines and booting into a terminal. Taking the default option brought me to a KDE 4.5 environment featuring a blue background and a dark panel. On the desktop is a collection of icons for viewing licenses, reading documentation, visiting the project's forum, launching the installer, seeing a list of installed packages and there's an icon labelled "passwords". I decided to start with the "passwords" icon in case I would need to perform authentication later. Upon clicking the icon my system froze. I rebooted and this time Chakra locked-up before it finished loading the desktop. Going back and trying different boot options didn't get me any further.
At this point I double-checked that my downloaded ISO and burned disc matched the checksum provided by the Chakra developers. The check confirmed my disc was good and, not willing to give up so soon, I moved from my desktop machine to my HP laptop and booted from the Chakra CD. Here things got off to a better start. Once I was back on Chakra's desktop I was able to open files to get the system's default passwords, get a list of available packages and launch the installer.
Chakra GNU/Linux 0.3.1 - the default desktop
(full image size: 678kB, resolution 1366x768 pixels)
Chakra's installer is, so far as I know, unique to the distribution and carries the name Tribe. It starts off with a welcome message and a warning that Chakra is still alpha software and that "it could eat your hamster". Such are the risks we reviewers take. We're then shown the project's release notes and we move from there to picking our time zone & language settings. Though the time zone & language screen looks much like it does in other graphical installers, with an interactive map of the world, Chakra's puts a little spin on the ball by trying to guess our preferred language based on the location we choose. From there we're invited to create user accounts on the system and it's possible to make several. Unfortunately if you accidentally hit the add button more times than necessary there doesn't seem to be any way to remove an account, nor will the installer let you proceed without filling in all the fields for all accounts. In my case this ended up providing me with an account for myself and one for Rex, my vulnerable hamster.
The partitioning section comes next and people familiar with the Ubuntu or Fedora installer will have no trouble tackling this screen. Though the layout is a bit different, Chakra's installer provides an intuitive interface for dividing up the hard disk and assigning mount points. Most popular Linux file systems are supported. From here the installer gives us a break while it performs the partitioning, formatting and installing. We next come to an unusual screen with four sections. These sections allow us to choose whether to install GRUB, customize the ramdisk, install packages and download software. I confirmed I wanted GRUB and went through the ramdisk process. The install section I thought was odd because the installer had just spent 15 minutes telling me it was installing things. But to play along I asked it to install VLC from its list of available desktop software. When it was done I noticed the installer's Next button was still greyed out, so I went to the Download section and asked it to grab Firefox. That finished and, still, the Next button was inactive.
Having gone through all the sections and unsure of how to proceed, I followed the advice on Chakra's website which tells us we should be "willing to read documentation". I went to the site's documentation section, found the part on installation and scrolled down to find there isn't anything in the documentation about this part of the installer. At the time of writing there's nothing on the ramdisk, GRUB, download or package installation; the document jumps from partitioning into first-boot. Discouraged, but not yet ready to give up, I rebooted and launched the installer again, hoping my previous dead-end had been bad luck. This time through I got passed the partitioning stage and waited while the installer carved up the disk and copied over its files. The program crashed at 81% completion, not making it to the four-in-one section I'd encountered before. At this point I gave up on installation and moved on to playing with the live disc.
Since everything included with Chakra needs to fit on a CD, a CD which features KDE, there's a fairly small supply of available software. There's a document viewer, image viewer, instant messenger client and the Kaffeine media player. There's a small backup tool for backing up your KDE configuration, an encryption tool, archive manager and text editor. There's a Chakra Bundle Manager, which on my live disc doesn't appear to do anything, and a partition manager. For web browsing we have access to Rekonq, a small KDE browser. There's no compiler, no Java and no Flash plugin.
The application menu additionally has an item called CInstall which functions as the distro's package manager. This is a separate entity from the Bundle Manager and fills the role we generally expect from graphical package managers. CInstall provides us with a window that is divided into three panes. On the left is an alphabetical list of software, in the upper-right is a description of whichever package we have highlighted. Down in the lower-right corner is a list of pending actions, such as installing, removing or upgrading. The program functions predictably allowing us to check boxes next to packages to install them and uncheck to remove the selected software. The only wrinkle in the experience was each operation required the root password. For example, let's say I try to install gnuchess, CInstall asks for the root password and then performs the installation. If I then decide to install flashplugin I'm prompted for the password again. Otherwise I found operating the package manager to be a smooth experience. Its looks are a bit crude, but the functionality is certainly there.
Chakra GNU/Linux 0.3.1 - the package manager
(full image size: 119kB, resolution 1366x768 pixels)
Though I didn't manage to get Chakra running for more than a minute on my desktop machine (2.5 GHz CPU, 2 GB of RAM, NVIDIA video card) I had no stability problems, outside of the installer, on my HP laptop (dual-core 2 GHz CPU, 3 GB of RAM, Intel video card). Performance was acceptable considering we're looking at a heavy desktop environment running from a live disc. My screen was set to a suitable resolution, audio worked out of the box and my touchpad was handled properly. Unfortunately my laptop's Intel wireless card was not detected.
Having tried Chakra I find myself in a bit of a reviewer's dilemma. The reason I tried Chakra was I had people telling me it was stable, despite the alpha branding, and that it was a wonderful fast, reliable, usable system. My experience was quite the opposite. Chakra failed to remain stable enough to launch applications, or sometimes even to finish booting, on my desktop machine. The installer either refused to complete or would crash, the Bundle application didn't work and the project lacked documentation in a key area. I was further put off by emoticons on the website and in my status messages. I realize these are hobbyists and Chakra isn't a professional distro, but I'm wary about handing my hard drive over to a product that writes messages akin to those found in the average Twitter feed. On the other hand, any criticism I can aim at Chakra can be swept aside with the project's "alpha" designation. The project plainly warns it's still in the early development stages and one should be prepared for bugs, crashes and hasmtericide. It's probably best to wait until Chakra is pronounced stable before giving it a try.
|Miscellaneous News (by Ladislav Bodnar)
openSUSE initiates a cross-disro application installer, Fedora developers gather at FUDCon, Debian talk at LCA
In the absence of any major announcements last week, perhaps the most interesting news story was about a "cross-distribution meeting on application installer", a collaborative conference that included developers from Debian GNU/Linux, Fedora, Mageia (a distribution set up by the former developers and contributors of Mandriva Linux), openSUSE and Ubuntu. Since we don't often see major distributions cooperating in this way, the conference was a fairly surprising move. Will we, one day, have a distro-agnostic website that would provide applications for easy installation? Izabel Valverde reports about the meeting: "Back in October, at the openSUSE Conference, several meetings and hallway discussions occurred on the topic of 'Installation of Applications' on openSUSE. As of today, we still have a very package-centric approach, while users usually do not think in terms of packages but in terms of applications: people want to use Firefox, LibreOffice or Frozen Bubble. We investigated the best way to approach this issue and come to a fast resolution. With several people from various distributions already working on some technologies that are related to this, we realized this could be a prime example of Collaboration Accross Borders."
* * * * *
FUDCon 2011, a three-day Fedora Users and Developers Conference, started in Tempe, USA last weekend. The first half of the conference covered some serious topics, such as Fedora's ARM port, cloud computing, the future of Fedora spins or a "sandboxed" X server, but it also included less formal gatherings in the form of a "FUDPub". Adam Williamson reports: "So far today I've been to Mo's awesome talk on using Inkscape - I think Mo is the only person who could possibly teach me to do anything good in graphics tools. I even made up a logo which you may or may not see pop up on this site when I'm on a network where I can actually get out to my web server. Followed that up with Maria 'tatica' Leandro's talk on photo editing with GIMP and other tools - really interesting to see her workflow and compare it with Mo's similar talk, and with the infinitely worse methods I use. Spot led a session where infrastructure team members pitched their ideas for the next big Fedora project and got feedback from the audience. All the ideas were pretty good and I wound up voting for all of them but one, which probably didn't help the team much, but hey." More blog posts from the conference by Christoph Wickert, Joerg Simon (with photos), Máirín Duffy and Mel Chua.
* * * * *
Another popular gathering of Linux developers took place last week in Brisbane, Australia. The annual Linux Conference Australia (LCA), which is often attended by well-known Linux personalities, was an occasion for current Debian Project Leader Stefano Zacchiroli to explain why people should care about Debian: "Zacchiroli outlined the uniqueness of Debian - it was a non-commercial distribution that was able to compete with other commercial distros, it was built collaboratively by experts and was the first major distribution to be developed exclusively in the spirit of the GNU project. Apart from this, Debian had two unique identifiers - its social contract (adopted in 1997) and its constitution (adopted in 1998), Zacchiroli said. 'The social contract ensures that the software is 100 percent free, that we give back every change to the upstream projects, that we don't hide problems and that our priorities are our users and free software,' he said. Debian was started in August 1993 and 17 years later it had around 30,000 packages, had done 11 releases, had 900 developers and 120 maintainers plus thousands of other contributors. "We have 12 ports and two non-Linux ports," Zacchiroli said. "And there are something like 120 derivatives based on Debian."
|Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith)
Getting-at-the-root-of-the-problem asks: What's a chroot and how do I use it?
DistroWatch answers: According to the chroot command's manual page, chroot is used to "run command or interactive shell with special root directory," which isn't a particularly helpful description. It might help if we envision the Linux file system as one large tree. At the base of the file system we have the root directory. Every part of the file system grows from there, so we can think of the /home directory as one branch and the /usr directory as another branch. Growing off of those are other directories, such as /home/bob and /home/susan. Branching further we might find /home/susan/Documents. All of these segments are attached to the directories above them, all the way back up to the root (/) directory. As far as the file system is concerned, there is nothing "above" the root directory.
The chroot command allows us to set up an environment where we treat a given directory as if it were the root, isolating that branch from the rest of the tree. Traditionally this has been used either to lock an untrusted program into an isolated part of the file system or to test complex systems without risk of harming the rest of the operating system. In recent years chroot environments have also been used to run 32-bit programs on 64-bit operating systems, keeping the 32-bit pieces separate. The difficult aspect of using chroot comes from the isolated directory needing to contain everything a user or program might need. Being cut off from the rest of the file system means users in a chroot environment don't have access to their regular collection of programs and documents. Copies of important files need to be recreated in the branch of the file system chroot will be using. This often includes a shell, system libraries and common commands.
If you'd like to see a chroot environment in action without having to do a lot of work up front, you can generally make use of a Linux live CD. Live CDs (and their ISO images) have a working operating system on them already, making them a good starting point. In the following example I'm mounting a Ubuntu CD image and accessing its live file system. First we create some mount points:
Next we mount the ISO image file:
mount -o loop ubuntu-10.04.iso livecd
In this step we access the compressed file system in the ISO and mount it under the "test-chroot" directory:
mount -t squashfs -o loop livecd/casper/filesystem.squashfs test-chroot
If we now look inside the test-chroot directory we will see a complete, working Linux file system. To lock ourselves inside that file system we can run:
We are now inside the chroot environment. Any commands we run will be trapped in the test-chroot directory. Commands such as rm, cp and apt-get are limited in their scope to our test-chroot branch and the directories below it. When we're done experimenting with our jail we can run "exit" to leave the chroot environment and return to normal. Once we're finished using chroot it would be a good idea to unmount the attached file systems:
As a security measure some network services will perform a chroot command on themselves, locking the program in its own safe corner of the file system. This behaviour is common in FTP servers as a way to protect the host computer in case the FTP program is somehow compromised. This self-containing action usually happens automatically and does not require assistance from the user.
Should you be interested in building your own chroot environment from scratch, I recommend reading through this document which includes tips on getting started.
|Released Last Week
Sabayon Linux 5.5
Fabio Erculiani has announced the release of Sabayon Linux 5.5, a Gentoo-based distribution and live DVD for the desktop: "Sabayon Linux 5.5 GNOME and KDE: stable release. Features: more than 1,000 updated packages and more than 100 bugs fixed; shipped with desktop-optimized Linux kernel 2.6.37 (Group Scheduling patch, TuxOnIce, Aufs 2.1) and glibc 2.11; cutting-edge X.Org graphics stack (Mesa 7.10, X.Org Server 1.9, 2.6.37 kernel, KMS-enabled, Gallium3D, best performance with OSS drivers); providing the best AMD/ATI and NVIDIA Linux desktop out-of-the-box experience; providing extra server-optimized, OpenVZ-enabled, VServer-enabled kernels in repositories; installable in 10 minutes; containing GNOME 2.32 and KDE 4.5.5 (KDE 4.6.0 will be available through updates)...." Read the rest of the release announcement for more details.
TurnKey Linux 11.1
Liraz Siri has announced the release of TurnKey Linux 11.1, an Ubuntu-based set of highly specialised virtual appliances available as installation CD images or virtual images: "Part 1 of the TurnKey Linux 11 release is now officially out, including 45 new images based on Ubuntu 10.04.1. Part 1 mostly refreshes the existing roster of appliances in the library. In the upcoming part 2 we'll release the new appliances the community has been helping us develop over the last year. This will roughly double the size of the library. A handful of new appliances have also been squeezed in: Joomla 1.6, Magento, StatusNet, PrestaShop and vTiger CRM. This was mostly a side effect of the original (misguided) plan to do one big massive release with over 80 appliances." The detailed release announcement includes a list of changes since the release candidate and a few hints about future plans.
ArchBang Linux 2011.01
Willensky Aristide has announced the release of ArchBang Linux 2011.01, a lightweight distribution showcasing the Openbox window manager, based on Arch Linux. Some of the features of this release include: "Lighter than before; new look; login as root works after installation; still a text-based installer but fully functional; documentation included; source files available in the download section; coming with X.Org video drivers for maximum compatibility; we are taking advantage of Openbox's tiling window functions. Once you have installed ArchBang, if you want Thunar to detect all your partitions, install gvfs by typing in the terminal 'packer -S gvfs'." Here is the brief release announcement with a screenshot of the default desktop.
ArchBang Linux 2011.1 - a lightweight distribution with Openbox
(full image size: 1,562kB, resolution 1280x1024 pixels)
Chakra GNU/Linux 0.3.2
An updated stable release of the Arch-based Chakra GNU/Linux, version 0.3.2, was released yesterday: "The Chakra development team is proud to announce our second point release of Chakra GNU/Linux 0.3 series, codenamed 'Ashoc'. This time we moved core-testing and platform-testing to our stable repositories and redesigned our testing repositories. Also X.Org got updated and fixed some known issues. Our tools got fixed and work even better than before. Due some issues with SourceForge we uploaded the images to our backup server. Feel free to mirror the images. What changed: Linux kernel 2.6.37 series; X.Org 7.6 stack with Mesa 7.10; X.Org Server 18.104.22.1681; updated X.Org drivers; KDE SC 4.5.5; updated Chakra tools; known bugs fixed in Tribe." For more information please see the release announcement.
Lucas Holt has announced the release of MidnightBSD 0.3, an operating system (forked from FreeBSD 6) with a goal of creating an easy-to-use desktop environment with graphical ports management and system configuration: "I'm happy to announce the availability of MidnightBSD 0.3. i386 ISO images are available on our FTP server and amd64 should be available in the next day or so. MidnightBSD 0.3 includes exciting new features such as support for ZFS, mDNSResponder for multicast DNS, libdispatch, AMD CPU temperature monitoring, updates to the Linux emulation layer and the OpenBSD sensors framework. This release includes a large merge from FreeBSD 7.0-RELEASE. Several new scripts have been added to make it easier to manage the system. One of these is netwait in rc.d. It allows you to wait for a network interface to come up while booting to ensure network activity is ready." Read the detailed release notes for more information.
* * * * *
Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
|Upcoming Releases and Announcements
Summary of expected upcoming releases
New distributions added to database
- Turnkey Linux. TurnKey Linux is an Ubuntu-based virtual appliance library that integrates some of the best open-source software into ready-to-use solutions. Each virtual appliance is optimised for ease of use and can be deployed in just a few minutes on bare metal, a virtual machine and in the cloud. The growing list of virtual appliances, each of which is available as a CD image or virtual machine image, include Bugzilla, Django, Drupal, File Server, Joomla, LAMP, Magento, Mantis, MediaWiki, MoinMoin, Moodle, MovableType, MySQL, Openbravo, phpBB, PostgreSQL, ProjectPier, Rails, Revision Control, StatusNet, Apache Tomcat, Torrent Server, Trac, TWiki, vtiger, WordPress, Zimra and others.
* * * * *
New distributions added to waiting list
- Parabola GNU/Linux. Parabola GNU/Linux is a 100%-free flavour of Arch Linux. It is built on top of Linux-libre, a kernel without proprietary blobs and non-free firmware, and includes GNU IceCat, a libre fork of Mozilla Firefox that doesn't recommend non-libre add-ons.
* * * * *
DistroWatch database summary
* * * * *
This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 7 February 2011.
Jesse Smith and Ladislav Bodnar
|Linux Foundation Training
|Reader Comments • Jump to last comment
1 • too much bloat (by ix on 2011-01-31 09:10:24 GMT from Romania) |
Desktop environments are becoming too bloated. KDE4 and GNOME3 are good examples.
Well, at least we have openbox and fluxbox.
2 • RE:too much bloat (by Fossala on 2011-01-31 09:12:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
You fogeting the best ones ratpoison, dwm, awesome, xmonad etc.
3 • @1: Re: bloat (by Stuart on 2011-01-31 09:23:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
What exactly is "bloat"? One hears the word a lot used to criticize software, but it's never a defined term. Both KDE 4 and GNOME provide a lot of convenient features beyond a simple WM, so to most users it's not bloat. If you think the implementation of those features is less than efficient, I'm sure the devs would accept patches.
4 • Chakra being GTK+ free (by jaycee on 2011-01-31 09:32:14 GMT from Australia)
The reason Chakra is GTK+ free is essentially because it's devoted to showcasing KDE. The developers are focused on tweaking upstream KDE to make it modular, and tailor the operating system and desktop environment to each other. The most useful information about it is here:
5 • #3 What exactly is "bloat"? (by ix on 2011-01-31 09:33:26 GMT from Romania)
"Software bloat is a term used to describe the tendency of newer computer programs to have a larger installation footprint, or have many unnecessary features that are not used by end users, or just generally use more system resources than necessary, while offering little or no benefit to its users."
OK, I did compare DE's with WM's. LXDE is a good alternative for bloated DE's.
6 • Bloat.......... (by stag on 2011-01-31 09:42:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
............is doing things less efficiently, in more code, producing the same or worse results, confusing the user and wasting their time and effort (productive capacity in jargo-speak). Most tasks can be accomplished equally well in Xfce/Openbox/JWM.ad.inf., but there are even more efficient, less bloated schemes. Amazing desktops can be achieved with, eg Menuet-Kolibri assembler-written OSes. VB & clones have de-skilled a generation of putative innovative coders allowing less talented operatives to clog up available hardware. Less is more.
7 • Xorg is too bloated (by Anonymous on 2011-01-31 09:52:38 GMT from France)
I went from GNOME to Xfce because I thought GNOME was bloated. Then I realized Xfce was still too bloated and I removed it and just used metacity with no DE. But that solution was still bloated so I removed Xorg all together and just went with the framebuffer. Then I realized I didn't need graphics at all and just went with the tty. When I found out how bash was bloated I installed busybox. Finally I decided to remove all the bloat, erase the hard drive and switch off the computer.
Now I have no bloat but I lack features. I have realized that bloat is a feature and I installed GNOME again. There are many things I don't "need" in GNOME but then again I don't "need" to use a computer at all. Those features are just making my experience more fun.
8 • Arch Linux with X (by old timer on 2011-01-31 10:06:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
Agreed with you about Chakra, been watching it for ages, and tried it once or twice, not impressed.
Arch is great, but sometimes you don't want the hassle of manually setting up all of the X bits, there is a solution: Archbang.
In my experience ArchBang is a very competent effort, a bootable X system based on Arch. It works and is fast.
9 • Chakra hanging @ 81% (by JesterRaiin on 2011-01-31 10:11:47 GMT from Poland)
Taken from Chakra's homepage :
"In case you leave the mark checked and you do have a working connection to the Internet, the best mirrors for your location will be set, but the install will pause for about 15-30 minutes at 81%, finding those best mirrors. So, don't get mad because of that. Just wait. "
source : http://chakra-project.org/wiki/index.php/Tribe_Guide
10 • Bloat?? (by RogueAgent on 2011-01-31 10:24:01 GMT from United States)
#7-Well done. All the whining about bloat this and to much of that and, well, I just don't get it.
Some people will never be happy. Maybe a half hour to download and 75 cents for a quality cd and voila!!!
I guess there are those that aren't happy no matter what. I'm running Ultimate Lite and dual boot with xpeeee.
And if I can get totally comfortable with Linux it is bye bye to that other os. And for free.
FREE!!!!!!! How can ya beat that? Some of you really, and I mean it, you really need to get a grip.
11 • Bloat? (by Becky232 on 2011-01-31 10:28:16 GMT from New Zealand)
It's funny how people get hung up on this business of bloat. If you want to see the real comparison - compare your average CD live disk with Windows 7 or Windows Vista. The commercial product uses a lot of disk space and gives you a few very simple tools that aren't that much use - and the linux live CD usualy gives you a fully featured environment with some highly useful real applications, as opposed to the toys in Windows!
I used to think in terms of the most efficianet code and most 'bang for the buck'..... and then I grew up and realised that software development isn't like that anymore and you go with the flow. If you really want to make your code stand out - do the optimisation on it.... In the mean time - be grateful that there's developers out there who can give you a highly usable GUI that's still way smaller than Windows and doesn't cost you the earth!
12 • bloat, bloat bloat (by MK on 2011-01-31 10:53:25 GMT from Saudi Arabia)
@7: beautiful comment LOL. @11:I agree 100%
13 • Cross-distro application installer... (by Darth Chaos on 2011-01-31 10:56:37 GMT from United States)
Sounds sort of like CNR - the multiple-distro version, not the one just for Linspire/Freespire - which seems to be dead. Hopefully it will be CNR done right.
14 • bloat (by pera on 2011-01-31 11:40:05 GMT from Serbia)
For me bloat of kde4 and gnome3 is in eye-candy things,which slows down system,not in features,which are helpful.
15 • RTFM mentality and DE Bloat (by Troublemaker on 2011-01-31 11:46:08 GMT from United States)
If the RTFM ideal was that is easy, than the Idiots Guide books, For Dummies books, and the thousands of instructional online videos would not be needed. For the RTFM folks; Just label your distro for advanced users only. Stop maintaining a public forum that searchable by the noobs, keep them private.
"Software bloat is a term used to describe the tendency of newer computer programs to have a larger installation footprint, or have many unnecessary features that are not used by end users, or just generally use more system resources than necessary, while offering little or no benefit to its users." Perfect description of a large DE or a Windows Computer. I got into Linux to get away from windows. Why would I want a DE that (almost) mimic's its size , complexity, and resource hungry nature.
16 • Chakra 0.3.1 (by Phil Miller on 2011-01-31 11:47:45 GMT from Germany)
Hi Jesse Smith. First of all thx for the review of Chakra GNU/Linux 0.3.1. We still had troubles with that issue so I pushed 0.3.2 out. This fixes most of the issues you had.
Lets go one by one:
Homepage: Most of the "funny lines" are written by Jan Mette who is now in a different galaxy. Sure we can change them when we find time. We will help our users if they have troubles with our distribution. No doubt in that.
Tribe: This installer is still under heavy development. Partitionmanagement is 89% done. Some quirks are still in there which we will fix too. During the installation process a big squashed image gets extracted to your harddrive. At 81% normally our routine checks for the mirrors. Here comes your problem. It searches also two mirrors who are offline so it hangs. Only way is to plug the line and go offline. Try again without internet connection. This is fixed in 0.3.2 btw. Installing bundles and apps thru tribe is problematic with this version since our repository structure changed. 0.3.2 should do better there. Also you can skip it and do it later. That the Next-button was disabled we have to recheck. Should be enabled after clicking on cancel. We will look into it.
CInstall: We changed the "type your root pw on every task"-routine. If you start cinstall now you get only asked once. Also lots of bugs got fixed in the new version 0.3.2
Maybe you give it a spin later some day.
Keep up your good reviews.
Phil Miller - Project-Leader of the Chakra-Project
17 • Chakra FAQ (by Phil Miller on 2011-01-31 11:57:32 GMT from Germany)
Here is our FAQ from our wiki http://chakra-project.org/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
18 • bloat = crap (by meanpt on 2011-01-31 12:17:43 GMT from Portugal)
With some distros I can login into a gnome desktop withing meager resources, let's say 450 MB, or even withing 236 MB (e.g. Paldo) and being able to work, while that's a sort of mission impossible in others. Not all of us are in the sissy path of "wish to be" the chic's coolest boy of the room. We prefer to be "beast" type right on the bed, not on the desktop :)
19 • Reviews (by Tom on 2011-01-31 12:26:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
Reviewing is tough and can be very frustrating for all 3 sides.
One problem is the time limitation which leads to only 1 release getting tested and that necessarily restricted to a very limited range of machines and limited to fresh installs rather than long-term usage.
I think we (especially distro-hoppers) generally acknowledge that this is less than ideal in real-world trials but for reviews it is difficult to see any other approach that wouldn't lead into a horrible range of other problems such as unwitting bias for or against a distro.
For ages i have been pushing for a comparison review hoping that people might have experience of at least 1 being reviewed and thus giving them an insight into how different things look
a) for a new user or fresh install
b) using the same criteria against the 2 distros they don't know so well.
At long last we got a comparison review last week but it was only then i realised that it meant at least triple the workload for the reviewer and could only deliver a third the value and depth for each distro and audience.
I did very much appreciate the work done by Jesse Smith and the result which did give more depth than is likely to be feasible on a regular basis. Now at last i appreciate the work that goes into producing a review. Also i can just click on full reviews done in previous weeks to get the comparisons i was looking for.
I only just had time to read last weeks DWW last night but have already managed to read this weeks today which feels great :)
Many many thanks to all at DW and regards from
20 • Chakra. A bad review? (by Tom on 2011-01-31 12:33:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hopefully reviews prompt us to try the distro under review to compare our own experiences against the reviewers. Also reviews tend to generate comments from longer-term users on their experiences or how to tweak things or set things up better. All of those comments considerably add to the value of the review but sometimes it can be difficult to filter out the madness that rest of the madness and rants that go on here!
"No such thing as bad publicity"
Regards again from Tom :)
21 • Using chroot (by Don Sanderson on 2011-01-31 12:37:23 GMT from United States)
Thank you Jesse for the well done article on chroot.
Made a complex commands basic purpose quite clear.
22 • Reviews (by Phil Miller on 2011-01-31 12:40:57 GMT from Germany)
There is no bad review. Every review of a product helps also the developers team. Starting a review and test stuff you don't know is great to see. There are so many distros out there and everyone has a different idea. Also how to handle the hardware is different for most distributions. I see lots of Archlinux based livecds using our hardware-detection scripts and other tools we develop. Also we try to find issues due reading reviews also from other distros to see what they do better or we did better. If you fail it is mostly not your fault. Some was missing and it should be fixed. Sure testing a Distro which is stamped with Alpha is hard to do. We know how to bypass the troubles but new users mostely don't. If we get a positive review we know we are stearing into the right direction. If there is some criticism we know we have to change some. (Half)Rolling Releases are harder to review. Sometimes you get a bad image or internal stuff changed so much that the image you currently have don't work. On the other hand: If you installed it once you mostly have not to do it again since your system updates itself.
Reading the review today felt great even for our team. We know that our project has more attention than before.
Keep up the good work, we know we will ;)
23 • To bloat or not to bloat...... (by Don Sanderson on 2011-01-31 12:45:24 GMT from United States)
Is a developer's choice.
Whether to use and support that bloat is our choice.
I don't like very large or very small cars, so I drive a 'mid-size' one.
I don't -complain- about the others, just don't buy them.
Same with my GNU/Linux, only I don't have to 'buy' it. :-)
24 • Chakra (by LinuxtesterGeek on 2011-01-31 12:52:26 GMT from Canada)
Chakra has never been a functional distribution. I tested this distro from the beginning and although we see little effort such as the installer, I never managed to have a stable system. Even fewer managed to install on my test computers (5 in total). Chakra is eternal Alpha ! I'm sorry but there are some distribution that too much attention and coverage. Chakra is a bit like a politician. Everything about the package and nothing in the container!
Many flafla but in the end we just do not do anything with ... Not even install it because your PC will freeze completely. Even liveCD, you will succeed one time on four functional desktop.
For my part, Distrowatch should wait 2 years before they built a new distro. Just a question of credibility. Or have a section reserved for the new comer.
25 • Re:#1,2,14 Bloat (by silent on 2011-01-31 13:11:06 GMT from France)
Yes, ratpoison and dwm and also ion, larswm, wmii, etc are very ergonomical for developers. Xmonad is a great tool for specialists, but a bit heavy with all the haskell dependencies for general use as a lightweight WM. Awesome uses xcb, which is not supported well at the moment. On the other hand for me Gnome2 is like a workhorse: it is not very fast, it is not very small, it is not very nice, it is not very smart and friendly either, but it does quite reliably all the things I need at home. As concerning Gnome3, I think I will just go for the 'fallback' interface for old hardware; although the new look is really nice and simple, stability and speed matter more than fancy effects.
26 • Chakra... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-31 13:13:06 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Agreed about Chakra. It is not stable, only lot of eye-candy. Anyway, we'll wait until they think their pet distro is stable...It is interesting a one-man show like Archbang is creating waves.
27 • Chakra (by stlarcher on 2011-01-31 13:36:17 GMT from United States)
I personally haven't tried Chakra yet, but I started using Arch (which it's based on) about 2 months ago and I love it. I've learned much more using Arch for 2 months than Ubuntu for 2 years. I've read similar criticism about Arch itself in different reviews. The Arch wiki is perhaps the best part of the distro. Nearly everything is covered and easy to follow. I'm sure most of the concepts apply to Chakra and any variant of Arch. Perhaps you should get a grasp on Arch before you review any of the variants and everything will make more sense. Their philosophy is that a system like Ubuntu, that attempts to do everything on the surface is actually more complicated underneath and harder to master. I agree. And judging by the stats on Distrowatch, Arch and Chakra (and Archbang too) are burning up the charts, so I must not be alone. I guess it's not for lazy people, but if you're willing to read a little, you won't be disappointed. I doubt that I will be changing distros anytime soon.
28 • Bloat, another imainagery condition. (by Eddie on 2011-01-31 13:45:01 GMT from United States)
Here we have another word that is popular in the computer world but a word that really has no meaningful definition. The reason being that bloat is a purely subjective word. There are people who would find TinyCord bloated. There are also people who would say that openSUSE is not bloated and runs like a charm. There are people who want eye candy and some who would just like the console and no X. A lot of the meaning of the word bloat will be termed according to what kind of hardware you have. You'll have people who will try to run Ubuntu on a 386 system with 128meg and say that Ubuntu is too slow and "BLOATED".(just a wild example) Like I said the personal definition of bloat in a distribution is only relevant to the hardware it is being installed on. Other than that, it has no meaning, except in our own mind.
Thanks for the article on chroot. Simple and informative.
29 • Arch and its derivatives (by A Doctor`s Linux Blog on 2011-01-31 13:51:00 GMT from Pakistan)
Arch Linux is a complete distribution in itself and it takes 1/4 of the time to install and configure than the time spent on its derivatives which are almost all coming up with some kind of problems.
Arch wiki , Arch team plus the volunteer helpers at #archlinux@freenode are the best support system offered by any distribution.
So in my opinion I will use Arch Linux and always recommend it to everyone who wants a stable and working Linux distribution for her/his daily usage.
30 • Chakra & Arch (by Tom on 2011-01-31 13:56:49 GMT from United Kingdom)
We used to hear the same thing about Slackware based distros. Many were mostly fine but getting to grips with the head of the family made problems much easier to deal with.
I think people that take the time to get to grips with either Slackware or Arch, or both(!) really set themselves up well. Using any of the entry level distros is good for day-to-day stuff until you achieve an understanding of either of those 2.
Chakra seems to provide good in-routes to help people learn the Arch system with a lot less pain. However, i am aware that Jesse is no slouch at this sort of thing so it's just a shame about picking the wrong release and hopefully other people can be stopped from downloading that one?
Regards from Tom :)
31 • Gtk-Free (Re: Phil Miller) (by Leo on 2011-01-31 14:05:02 GMT from United States)
Yes, I think it is important to go over he webpage and clean it up. I think there is room for a KDE rolling distro (particularly if it can be made user-friendly, as opposed to a RTFM one, in which case Arch already filled the gap :) ). But claiming to be gtk-free sounds confrontational and childish. I am a kde user, and I do like kde better than other environments, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with them.
32 • Chakra (by Jesse on 2011-01-31 14:07:05 GMT from Canada)
In regards to the problem I had with the installer stopping at 81%, perhaps I should have been more clear. The installer didn't hang at 81%, it crashed. The process terminated, so it wasn't a matter of "wait for it to continue".
Phil, it's good to hear your team is hard at work and continuing to make improvements. Best of luck going forward. When things get closer to a stable state (or as stable as we can get with a semi-rolling release) I'll be happy to try Chakra again.
33 • Bloat... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-31 14:08:35 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Well, if bloat is a catchword, it is for the Redmond stuff. They are like pregnant cows (sorry, cows!) and still they are only "minimalistic" distros, nothing but few software programs that a end-user might use. If anyone wants to write a nice letter, they have to buy their other bloated MS Office!
Puppy is one of a kind non-bloated distro, and a very efficient one. Have anyone tried the "Teh Gray"?
Other non-bloated distros are Archang and Crunchbang. We can even make them even lesser.
But, if we really look into the word bloated, every distro other than Minuet/Kolibri are bloated! Wish I could find a way to connect to the Internet through Kolibri...Does anyone know how to? Interestingly, this Kolibri is the work of ex-USSR geeks...it says something, doesn't it?
34 • Tired of hearing about BLOAT (by Snowman on 2011-01-31 14:20:28 GMT from United States)
I haven't met a distro that give me exactly everything I want on my computer and doesn't included the stuff I don't want.
So there are "features" or software you don't want? so what?
The cool thing about Linux is that you can customize it to your needs. Remove the offensive stuff and add in what you need or want. I sure that if you did that someone would bitch about your version having too much bloat. I use Ubuntu as my base system, but more than half the stuff is removed and I add in my needed features. Don't like KDE or Gnome ? Use something else, but stop telling me how much better your system is compared to mine. Mine does what I want quickly and without fuss. I'm happy with it.
35 • Bloat, what bloat (by Rayray on 2011-01-31 14:22:14 GMT from United States)
If you are complaining about bloat you are using the wrong distro. I love KDE4 and Gnome 2, but I wouldn't use them on a slow machine with limited disk space.
If you your using a P4 with at least 512 mb of memory there shouldn't be any reason that bloat will interfere with with normal activity.
If you don't like KDE or Gnome you can choose to use another desktop, but with the speed of modern computers most users will prefer to use KDE or Gnome.
That is why most distros use KDE or Gnome as their desktops. But as in all things people get used to one particular desktop and will always find faults in other desktops.
I've installed KDE4 on various P3 machines and as long as you have at least 512mb of memory they work well (much better than Windows XP).
36 • KDE rolling distros (by Leo on 2011-01-31 14:22:52 GMT from United States)
Let me just add to my previous comment: I use Kubuntu as a semi-rolling KDE distro in all machines. I upgrade them every six months with no pain , so kernel and X are always pretty recent, and I update KDE from the Kubuntu PPA for the monthly updates. Life is good :)
37 • Re:#15 (Bloat) (by Leo on 2011-01-31 14:48:56 GMT from United States)
"I got into Linux to get away from windows. Why would I want a DE that (almost) mimic's its size , complexity, and resource hungry nature."
I hate Windows' interface, but I find KDE enjoyable. In terms of resource usage: I run KDE in all my computers, most of which are way under spec'ed for windows. Two of them has 1GB ram and a lowly Atom single core. Try and run windows 7 there :)
Yesterday I put kubuntu in a 7 year old computer I am donating today. Everything works so far. Granted, there are some minimal specs, and some other DE's are better for embedded/very low spec machines. But I think Linux with KDE strikes the sweet spot of low resource usage and great functionality.
38 • Bloat (by Ron on 2011-01-31 15:33:26 GMT from United States)
I am fairly new to Linux. I see complaints about bloat and laugh. Any Windows release are MAMMOTH compared to any Linux distribution without the user getting anything more in return. Am I mistaken, or are there not several minimalist distributions available. Isn't it their purpose to eliminate the bloat. If you do not like your distro, use a different one, geesh!!
39 • @37 • Re:#15 (Bloat) (by Leo (by meanpt on 2011-01-31 15:42:55 GMT from Portugal)
I run a windows 7 starter on a VM with 512 MB. Right, it's sluggish. But the only KDE I can ran in a workable fashion within the same memory allowed is the salix's KDE 4.3 edition. Anything else is equally and even more sluggish than the damned w!""!!""dows 7.
40 • Bloat systems? Eye-candy? No thanks! (by Alessandro di Roma on 2011-01-31 15:43:21 GMT from Italy)
I use Mint 10 with Preferences/Appearance/Background = Black and Preferences/Appearance/Visual Effects = None. So on my not-so-new computer I get a system which takes 1/6 of my 2 GB RAM and has very good response times. Don't be afraid about features you don't need if you can avoid to use them!
41 • Chroot (by JR on 2011-01-31 16:14:19 GMT from United States)
Just when I thought I had grip on these terms, my understanding gets turned upside down. Thanks for the explanation of chroot. So chroot is like an isolated working environment, sorta like a vm for applications, jail, or sandbox.
Noob question: If browsers ran in a chroot session, wouldn't that solve all or most security issues? If its isolated that the browser can do no harm to the rest of the system.
42 • RE #32 (by Phil Miller on 2011-01-31 16:21:55 GMT from Germany)
Thx again Jesse. Your review showed us again what we have to work on.
That tribe broke on your system is sad to hear. We will look into it, thats why it is still alpha.
Till next time ;)
43 • Bloat (by Rudolph Steiner on 2011-01-31 16:22:58 GMT from United States)
Blah, Blah, Blah, Bloat! Is a matter of opinion and not tangible. I personally love KDE 4.6 with all its "BLOAT".
On another topic all together -> who the hell is Chdslv? He sucks!
And I quote "But, if we really look into the word bloated, every distro other than Minuet/Kolibri are bloated!"
What the hell are you talking about?
Please tell me your purpose is to piss me off. If so, your damn good at it. I think you are a total ass or at least come across as one.
Moderators, feel free to block me in the future.
44 • KDE is not bloated enough. (by Anonymous on 2011-01-31 16:25:19 GMT from France)
I have a computer with 4Gb or RAM. That is the minimum you can buy where I live. I could not find less. I use KDE 4.5 with Firefox and OpenOffice. Those applications are nice but I'm still not using even half of the memory I have. I can't share the spare memory with other people, it stays in my computer. I want MORE 3D eye candy. Resources are to be used. RAM is wasted when NOT used, not the other way around. Do you guys know about a more bloated DE?
45 • Chakra (by Archetype on 2011-01-31 16:27:03 GMT from United States)
I don't see a need for Chakra, but have tried it anyway, and several times.
It seems to be in a perpetual Alpha-state of rewriting everything.
This further alienates me from it and leads me to believe it is one of those projects that will simply never be done.
I have been pulling for them since the beginning, but my hope is nearly gone.
Just use Arch.
46 • un chrooting (by Tom on 2011-01-31 16:44:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ok, so if you chroot into a LiveCd session is it possible to return to the normal hard-drive install afterwards easily?
I really like the idea of running it almost like a Virtual Machine. I can see there are significant differences as a VM uses a subset of the resources and exists within the system that is mounted but chroot almost seems to ditch the current system and move to the new one entirely. That does actually suit me better because i get the full amount of ram available to the new system and i don't have much ram on any of the systems where i would need this type of functionality now.
Regards from Tom :)
47 • Bloat (by Anonymous on 2011-01-31 17:16:51 GMT from United States)
I have to agree with #44, I bought my quad core PC w/ 6Gb of Ram for half what I think a typical Mac would cost a couple of years ago. I would prefer that my KDE dance around and amuse me if I have the resources to spare. More realistic and vivid shattering of windows when I set them to explode and close them! Why are my wobbly windows so 2D rather than having pond like 3D ripples through them or lifting like a piece of paper? I do want light distros around for my fixer uper junk PCs, but limitless customization, and eye candy are a big part of what keep me interested in booting up Linux, so bloated things are actually what I want more of for my main PCs Linux distro.
48 • RE: 41 (by Landor on 2011-01-31 17:16:57 GMT from Canada)
You can run a browser in chroot but it's a definite pain. You need pretty well every dependency there too. X, GTK, etc, etc.
A heavily locked down LiveCD is a far better solution, or just a very restricted kiosk build launching the browser on start-up.
Keep your stick on the ice...
49 • Chakra needs real testing (by MacLone on 2011-01-31 17:33:01 GMT from Mexico)
I have been trying Chakra and i might say its a promising distro but releasing small development versions with all those show stopper bugs is silly. You NEED more help, more intense testing, look for more developers/ beta testers before releasing to public.
I was really happy with the Arch base and the Shaman package installer despite the few compatibility problems you had (nothing extreme). Then... you decided to start all over again with your own base (because compatibility problems or whatever) and now we are again with nothing usable. (Cinstall empty, tribe etc). Yes, we know is an Alpha but is far from being public realeases. Now you're at number 15 at Distrowatch's list and you don't even have a really usable distro... what can you say about that?
Your work is really great and interesting but it needs a little more professional direction.
50 • 7 • Xorg is too bloated (by Edward on 2011-01-31 17:42:36 GMT from United States)
That is effin' funny.
51 • Rudolf Steiner (by Chdslv on 2011-01-31 17:43:44 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Well, if you don't know what is Kolibri OS, then you don't know much. So, stop shouting your ignorance!
For other people, who read DW and comment; there is a guy(s), who is making Macbuntu OS, but doesn't really apply for recognition. Interestingly, his 64 bit OS, installed easily in to a 32-bit laptop. Don't know how it happened, but I am writing from that now.
Sabayon KDE did install itself, but has bugs in its face, i.e, you can have a 1/4 size extra screen on your monitor which doesn't go off.
Midnight BSD live CD won't boot up at all. Practically every Open Source new OS will be downloaded and tried as soon as I find them.
Wish I could get Kolibri to connect to the Internet! I too have a 4GB RAM laptop, the minimum we can buy in the market today.
52 • Chakra (by LinuxtesterGeek on 2011-01-31 17:46:20 GMT from Canada)
49# I agree with you. That's exactly what I thought at this time. How can we be at rank 15 and do not have a stable system. Especially when you look at the base on which it is based. I understand the philosophy behind the project developement Chakra. I would go further, that always alpha system presented as a stable version is harmful to the mother distribution. We also see some other phenomenon in * Slackware Distribution *.
For my part, I developed a home-based distro PCLinuxOS but I just pretend it is a distribution either. I just customized packages, look etc. .. I have too much respect for the mother Distro to go throw my nickname Distro. To be realistic sometimes. I am not a professional developer.
53 • Chakra hypocrisy (by Tidux on 2011-01-31 17:47:54 GMT from United States)
"Chakra describes itself as a GTK-free distro."
"so I went to the download section and asked it to grab Firefox"
The developers have to know that Firefox depends on Gtk, so they're clearly talking out of both sides of their mouths.
54 • @53 Chakra (non-)hypocrisy (by Joe on 2011-01-31 17:50:19 GMT from United States)
What they mean is that they have no GTK+ applications in their main repository. Bundles such as Firefox are bit part of the main repository.
Seriously, you can accuse Chakra of lots of things, but not hypocrisy.
55 • Re: 41, 46 (by Jesse on 2011-01-31 17:56:05 GMT from Canada)
In response to the question in 41, you can run a browser in chroot, however it can cause issues. Security and ease of use is a balancing act and adding to one often detracts from the other. It would also mean all the libraries and such would have to be copied in the chrooted directory. That last time I checked, I think Firefox was nearly 200MB, including libraries. So there's a trade-off with resources too.
>> "Ok, so if you chroot into a LiveCd session is it possible to return to the normal hard-drive install afterwards easily?"
As I mentioned in the piece above, `When we're done experimenting with our jail we can run "exit" to leave the chroot environment and return to normal.'
56 • bloat is real (by technosaurus on 2011-01-31 18:00:08 GMT from United States)
Bloat is not imaginary. It comes from devs using what they know instead of learning what is right. Example ... pulling in gnome dependencies for something that gtk can do (compare zenity bloat to yad's) compare X11 to xcb or even pango 1.25+ to <=1.24.5 ( now the entire previously C only gtk toolkit is polluted with C++) who decided harfbuzz was so important that it merits adding c++... or rather a stl... which for most desktop systems is libstdc++ which is bloated on its own merit? Not sure, there was mail list discussion that promised not to bring in c++, but at least most recent versions of gtk will build with pango-1.24.5 ... but packagers would need to pay unduly close attention to catch this.
Back to xcb v X11, mcwm statically compiled with uclibc and xcb is 1/10th the size of any X11 based wm regardless of the c library.
Usually when software gets bloat it remains forever (so we may as well start writing gtk widgets in c++) but yad is a fork of zenity that took the debloat path and is quite stable and active.
57 • Debian (by mik on 2011-01-31 18:02:00 GMT from Italy)
Few days and Debian 6 will be on all my computers!
Can't wait anymore!!
58 • Rank Distro (by LinuxtesterGeek on 2011-01-31 18:03:34 GMT from Canada)
I dont understand how Chakra perhaps before actual of distribution who is very more excellent: Mepis, Vector Linux, gentoo, Pardus, Zenwalk, Frugalware and others.
I had no way detracts from my Chakra but about rethinking the system of awarding rank on Distrowatch. It does not look seriously. But I just understand that it is perhaps not possible.
59 • technosaurus (by Chdslv on 2011-01-31 18:07:24 GMT from Sri Lanka)
@ technosaurus, can you explain more, somewhat less geeky?
In the days of 286 with only 20MB hard disk, there were word processors with dictionaries, whose size didn't reach 1MB...And this Kolibri has everything in a 4MB install!
60 • Bloat/Chakra (by Anonymous on 2011-01-31 18:45:15 GMT from United States)
For once two threads come together.
Everyone is coming close to hitting the nail on the head but no one has hit the nail on the head.
The solution to this is to give some control back to the installer, in this case too much control is taken away at the sake of ease of use.
Too much attention is given to the start of the install routine and almost none at the end. It shows in the documentation, maybe everyone is just too tired.
Boot loader is a good place to start, too many distros don't listen to what the user wants or assumes what they want is not what you want to use. You get the GRUB vs GRUB2 problems or wipe out then config file and boot only your distro. Don't offer the Grub fix routine for mint on your boot loader etc.
Another big problem is the bad handling of the install itself, can it update a previous version of itself? On a KDE4 install it installs everything twice, one from the DVD and uncompressed from the web a second time. Also, on the second time it doesn't ask for a IP or offer to choose a mirror. Then it doesn't tell you what is installed, that is where the bloat is coming from, linking both threads.
Also, some XFCE light distros pull in half of GNOME making them bloated and you can't stop the installer from doing it. The live CD image is more usable than the install sometimes.
They should just update the core live CD and update the package manager and let the user choose what to add. Giving the bloat control back to the users or at least bring up a check box screen.
61 • Bloat (by SoFarSoGood on 2011-01-31 18:48:14 GMT from Germany)
Well, if i install Debian-Gnome, it's 3GB. I dont intend to attach a printer on the machine, but there is cups, foomatic and drivers for printers as common as coconut jiuce with garlic. Hundreds of megabytes. And a 60MB "vector-based drawing program" - omg, i am in the minority of users who are actually not in the vector-based drawing business. And these stupid Gnome Games, 70MB... i never seen anyone playing one of these, ever. Then you upgrade to unstable and from time to time, package dependency tree gets a bit mixed up because of too much complexity there, and all that just because the distro chooses to flood me in an avalanche of stuff i never need, not to mention the time used for installing, upgrading, making backups and sometimes not being able to upgrade because of dependency issues...
I prefer being presented with a base installation and then get drawn into a good software selection "center", offering... "want a browser, click here", showing a list of common browsers, ready for sorting by user ratings, popularity, etc... "read user reviews"... just like a huge warehouse with all stuff being free. And the best thing is, it's only 1.3 GB and not 3 GB and you happen to know your system a little bit better. With Debian/Gnome, no chance. Just like Windows.
I recently stumbled upon Arch Linux and that's what i'm currently using. Installed Gnome-base and only pulled about 3 packages from gnome-extra. Wonderful. Fast. Not confusing. No bloat. And i happen to know a little bit about what is installed, and what for.
My 2 cents..
62 • @61 (by Chdslv on 2011-01-31 19:08:33 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Quite interesting! Maybe I'd try Arch again and make my own OS. Tried Debian, but it asks me to wait 2-3 hours and won't tell me what it is installing...But the ready made Archbang is quite nice, just as CTKArch...Got to go, its past midnight. See you guys tomorrow. Take care!
63 • Addendum.. (by SoFarSoGood on 2011-01-31 19:18:29 GMT from Germany)
Ok i must add that Arch Linux is not the kinda "come get here" dreamland one-click warehouse i described in my "vision" above, it's about editing a few text lines in config files here and there, and they have excellent documentation, but for the total newbie maybe a little bit scaring. But at least one doesnt have to install the whole shebang..
64 • #63 (by anticapitalista on 2011-01-31 19:23:11 GMT from Greece)
Debian net-install can do what Arch-core does (and so can antiX-core only 110MB, smaller than both)
65 • bloat+review=impossible (by Anonymous on 2011-01-31 19:30:54 GMT from Canada)
One assumes that an OS (any OS) incorporates apps that *work.
It does not seem possible for any reviewer to try out each and every app.
Mint 10 will not open the sound on a pps (Impress) in Open Office
According to that forum Mint 8 and Mint 9 will give the sound
How to find out other than by downloading and installing every OS that looks interesting?
Live CDs do not always seem to guarantee to work when installed.
66 • Sound in presentations (by Jesse on 2011-01-31 19:55:05 GMT from Canada)
I would assume disabling sound in a slide presentation would be considered a desirable feature.
67 • Sound (by SoFarSoGood on 2011-01-31 20:00:17 GMT from Germany)
I find it pretty risky to try playing any sound on a totally foreign machine, like while the system is installing.. what if something went wrong with the driver auto-selection and some random data gets blown thru' the speakers at full volume... if i were a distro maintainer, i'd let the user slowly ramp up the volume using a test sound while configuring the sound system and have a big red emergency stop button ready, just in case..
68 • Inconsistent terms in chroot (by Carl on 2011-01-31 20:03:53 GMT from United States)
I often see inconsistencies in descriptions of filesystems, and I see the same problem in your description of chroots. You refer to the root being the base of the tree and everything branching from there. Later in the same paragraph you refer to all directories being attached to the directory above them, all the way to the root directory. So you seem to be implying that the base (root) is the top of the tree, which seems inconsistent to me, or at least confusing. Maybe the problem is that trees are the wrong analogy since trees grow up from their roots.
69 • Debian with NetInstall (by SoFarSoGood on 2011-01-31 20:08:32 GMT from Germany)
@64: really? If i try to uninstall like "gnome-games", i get to choose to either keep it or uninstall the "gnome" or "gnome-desktop" meta packages aswell. They make stuff like that part of the meta package!
I would consider such meta packages as "things you really should have without breaking your gnome system". Sorry for being so direct/blunt/rude (strikeout the inappropriate terms)..
70 • Bloat (by megadriver on 2011-01-31 20:12:48 GMT from Spain)
I've always defined "bloat" as "stuff I don't need that is forced on me". Bloat is the main reason I left Windows six years ago.
For example, when I try to install mplayer from the official Arch repository, it wants me to also install jack (which I don't use), smbclient (which I don't need), lirc-utils (which I don't need), ttf-dejavu (the only ttf fonts I need are liberation and unifont) and libpulse (which I hate and hope it dies).
I hate it when some cute little program I read about, and think "this sounds cool", wants me to install hal (not dead yet!?) and/or those pesky *kit things (don't need, don't want!), not to mention half of gnome...
The bloat of a man is the functionality of other, or something.
The good thing about Arch is that you can easily make your very own mplayer (or whatever) package, with just the dependencies you need. Fortunately, most Arch packages are light on the bloat, so I don't have to recompile everything, a la Gentoo/Funtoo.
RAM is wasted when not used? How about electricity? Is it wasted when not used?
71 • Bloat (by SoFarSoGood on 2011-01-31 20:23:11 GMT from Germany)
@70: lol, ok you're even deeper into the no-thankyou-business than i am. And you're right, unnecessary dependencies are unneccesary dependencies. But at least with Arch it goes a little bit more in our direction. And as you noticed, you can easily roll your own packages, as everything else in the system is as vanilla and unpatched as possible, so there's a high chance that your self-compiled package would run just fine.
72 • File system description (by Jesse on 2011-01-31 20:27:13 GMT from Canada)
>> "I often see inconsistencies in descriptions of filesystems, and I see the same problem in your description of chroots"
It's entirely true, the terms used for UNIX file systems are upside down. The root directory has branches which go down. Running "cdup" takes you further "up" the tree to its root. I completely agree the terminology is backward, but that is the way it has been for years.
73 • chroot and Debian 6.0 release (by Penguin on 2011-01-31 20:38:16 GMT from Poland)
Thanks for excellent chroot description. Really helpful and clear. Could not find the release date of Debian 6.0 in upcoming releases and announcements.
74 • baby steps in chroot (by Tom on 2011-01-31 20:38:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ooops, i hadn't spotted the "exit" command. Presumably i can mount an iso image in the same way? Say for an Ubuntu 10.10 does this look horribly wrong?
mount -o loop /home/user/Public/distros/ubuntu-10.10-desktop-i386.iso livecd
mount -t squashfs -o loop livecd/casper/filesystem.squashfs test-chroot
This should be about right and then escape back to my normal hard-drive install by doing ...
Regards from Tom :)
75 • Bloat (by #47 on 2011-01-31 20:45:04 GMT from United States)
Unused RAM feels more akin to an abandoned building than electricity, it just sits there instead of doing anything useful or entertaining. That being said #56 is right in that bloat from bad program design is also a bad thing and a waste of RAM real-estate. I've also wondered about something like what #60 is talking about. Why not some kind of advanced install tab that lets you do some heavy customization of what is going into your system before you install it? Of course in a world where most new computers come with a minimum 4Gb of RAM I'd still like more shiny & entertaining desktop effects to be available.
76 • Chakra, bloat, and things... (by davemc on 2011-01-31 21:01:22 GMT from United States)
Bloat is real and you see it in the *Buntu's, Fedora, and SUSE. For example, why do all three of these distro's load up the Bluetooth daemons on my machine post install, even though my machine does not have Bluetooth? THAT is bloat. Its a process running on my machine sucking down precious resources that serves no purpose whatsoever. Why do all three of these projects force pulseaudio on me, even though pulseaudio cant work on my system setup?.. In every new install of these bloated Distro's, the first thing I do is, "sudo apt-get remove --purge pulseadio", "YUM remove pulseaudio", etc. After that, ALSA does all that is needed and I am good. One would think that ALL Distro's should have a script that checks for hardware setups and installs only what is absolutely needed and nothing more, leaving the choice up to the user to setup his/her system from there. Any install that installs more than what is absolutely essential for a base system (with or without X) to run is bloat!
I think Chakra gives you that base KDE system on top of a slightly customized Arch base. ArchLinux gives you a base install (CLI only) with absolutely no bloat whatever. After that its up to you how you setup your new system (KDE, GNOME, LXDE, XFCE, etc..) and what apps or system processes you want on your system. You could just as easily (easier probably) setup a base Arch install and then install KDE giving you an even lighter smoother system than Chakra, but Chakra adds in some custom tweaks and scripts and has their own repo's and custom graphical installer (Arch uses ncurses) which gives users a much more user friendly way of installing than Arch does.
77 • Lol (by Tom on 2011-01-31 21:06:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think i was expecting too much there! It was not like running a LiveCd.
The file-system didn't have all the stuff that the scripts create during booting. I couldn't open programs such as firefox or even start an x session. Also my desktop didn't change so i could run firefox from my applications menu and that had all the bookmarks i normally have on my hard-drive. I could still move around my hard-drive's file-system except inside the command-line.
I know that chroot is a good feature because enough people that i regard highly keep telling me it is invaluable and they seem to be able to do some clever things with it.
Regards from Tom :)
78 • Developer attitudes and such... (by davemc on 2011-01-31 21:15:20 GMT from United States)
Oh, about the apparent flippant attitude taken by the Chakra Devs on their website/Docs. Arch is not a Distro for the feint of heart. Its an Intermediate level Distro and the Arch Devs make no bones about that fact. You will get no mercy if you don't do the research first. I have found that 99% of the time I have been able to answer all of my own questions/issues within the Arch documentation, sometimes though those answers don't just pop out at you right away as poster #5 pointed out.
I guess you could call Chakra an Intermediate level Distro with a user friendly graphical installer.
79 • RE: 68 (by Landor on 2011-01-31 21:34:34 GMT from Canada)
You're being far too literal in your view of it. You have to view root as the main root and everything else branches off of it. You're right, but wrong. He's mixing two common terms together, which is normal, if you understand them. Directories are like branches on a tree, stemming off from the trunk (main directory/root). It's why it's called a tree. Instead of that being called a trunk, it's commonly known (regardless of the operating system) as the root directory.
Keep your stick on the ice...
80 • Chroot & Bloat (by bodhi on 2011-01-31 21:39:56 GMT from United States)
First, chroot, much more interesting topic =)
chroot can be used for system maintenance (mount your root file system from a live CD and fix packages or grub) , development (packages, LiveCD), and for servers.
You can run X applications from a chroot and forward them to Xehphyr
You can run servers from a chroot to increase isolation or security. To do this you must place then necessary binaries, libraries, and configuration files in the new root directory. To identify the necessary libraries use ldd.
Once you understand the concept of a chroot, you can then look at LCX, or Linux containers. These are then small isolated containers that can be used to run applications (apache) or an entire gues OD (VPS).
Have fun =)
Not so fun - Bloat.
Bloat basically is in the eye of the beholder. New users find bloat invaluable, people expect Linux to work "out of the box", thus you need a large kernel with drivers for any and all hard driver, network cards, video cards, sound cards, wireless cards, etc. Next comes a "Desktop Environment" and all the eyecandy.
Now the thing that is nice about Linux is choice. Once you are familiar with Linux, or if you are wanting to be a kernel hacker from the start, you can configure all or most of this. If you want a lighter DE or switch to a Window manager.
If you like to have a lean mean machine, go with something like a minimal install of Arch, Debian, Fedora, or even Ubuntu and build up.
Or go with a minimal distro such as Tinycore, Slitaz, or Slax.
If you want to get rid of all the bloat in your kernel, compile it yourself with only the drivers you need for your hardware.
If you want to get rid of all the unnecessary libs, go with something like gentoo.
You see, with Linux you get choice. No need to complain about the choice of others, build the system you want and get on with it already =)
81 • Bloat and new users (by SoFarSoGood on 2011-01-31 22:03:29 GMT from Germany)
@80: as a new user, it might be rewarding to build a system from a smaller base instead of getting presented an evreything-out-of-the-box system, for one reason: one can learn what everything installed is good for, without being overwhelmed by a giant system with wrappers over wrappers and a sheer endless list of packages installed. But what's very important there: there has to be a well-sorted software "warehouse", where they stick your nose into everything you may need, well-sorted, with user ratings, popularity numbers, user reviews and so on, so you're not left on your own to find out what's hip. Thats most important, else a smallish base installation would not do the trick for a new user. But with the experience of easily grabbing components of choice, the Linux newbie might quickly become a bit more enthusiastic about the system since it's easier to learn about what's going on on the machine. With a mega-huge all-in-one distro it's back to buisiness-as-usual: easy one-click tasks but with no clue whatsoever. Works, but is not exactly fun to work with, in terms of how the user vies the system and the computer as such. Dunno if i made myself clear enough about this. If the user has an easy time adding a few apps every day and everything works well, it's IMHO the better experience.
82 • #69 Debian with NetInstall/antiX-core (by anticapitalista on 2011-01-31 22:22:11 GMT from Greece)
I just installed antiX-core (which is really Debian Testing base with a MEPIS kernel) and then proceeded to install xorg, gdm and gnome-session all with --no-install-recommends and got a very lean gnome desktop. I then installed gnome-icons and a gtk theme as well. Probably need a bit more, but my point is that Debian can be just as 'bloat-free' as Arch if users use --no-install-recommends and also do not install the meta-packages.
83 • @76 - bloat (by Anonymous on 2011-01-31 22:28:06 GMT from France)
"sucking down precious resources"
This is not precious nor rare.
There are two kinds of bloat:
First one is the bloat that is a resource problem: that is the one you want to avoid in resource constrained devices like mobile phones or netbook.
The second one is the one that is intellectual. This one does not cause any real issue because you have 1Tb hardrive that is used at 10% and 6Gb of RAM that can handle it without even noticing it's there. But you have to get rid of it because of aesthetics. You don't like it being there because you are a techie and you know it's not beautiful. Removing it is not necessary but it's like a sport for you. You want it gone for the sake of it being gone.
84 • Bloat (by SoFarSoGood on 2011-01-31 22:41:51 GMT from Germany)
@83: i can't agree about the bloat. Of course, some ppl don't care about bloat, and that's fine with me. But I don't wish to have the system start unused daemons, because a) booting takes longer, b) these will eat a few resources (apparently not much if you got 6GB ram) and they may be broken and crash or leave the system vulnerable. Less software, less security loopholes. And updating the system takes longer. Updating Debian-unstable (or rolling distros) may break more often. Backing up the system takes longer. And a new user gets a bit more overwhelmed when trying to learn about the system. Yes im splitting a few hairs there but it's just how i see it..
85 • Arch Linux with X (by Pumpino on 2011-01-31 22:48:02 GMT from Australia)
I like Arch's philosophy but always had problems manually configuring X (eg. couldn't get sound working, etc), so your reference to ArchBang has me intrigued. I plan to download it. Is anyone aware of a similar Arch based distro that has Gnome as the default windows manager? ArchBang covers Openbox and Chakra covers KDE, so it seems a shame that Gnome is neglected (although I imagine installing and switching to Gnome in ArchBang is relatively simple).
86 • RE: 80 - 82 - 84 (by Landor on 2011-01-31 22:59:56 GMT from Canada)
Just a note here, you said to build a bloat free system with Fedora start with a minimal install and build it up. I'm guessing you've never tried to build a bloat free desktop system with Fedora. They way the dependencies and such are laid out, Fedora pulls in pretty well the same package (for examaple) in Gnome as it would for the Gnome Desktop Live CD. You may have different applications installed but the whole base desktop system is no different. It's almost impossible to make it lighter unless you start looking at building your own .rpm's for the build. That's my experience anyway.
Debian proper has to be the closest binary distribution I've come to that can be as minimalistic as a source based distribution. Some will say Slackware is the same but it's not really since it's not as simplistic (ie: quick) to install that way as Debian is. I've got an install of Openbox and XFCE panel (with a pile of plugins and such) and some other bells and whistles down to 36 mb at the desktop with Debian Testing. I'd like to see other distributions emulate that. Ones that are not source of course.
You're not splitting hairs at all. You brought up valid points that I was personally going to make myself. People can wave the "New User" banner all they want, everything comes with a price tag, just few pay attention to how much it costs. :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
87 • Bloat (by Patrick on 2011-01-31 23:09:15 GMT from United States)
Let's see, how does bloat affect me on this machine.
RAM: total: 2005MB, used: 438MB, 672MB in temporary use for buffers and caches, 894MB not used since I started this system. Swap not touched, of course.
Disk: puny 78GB (dual boot on this work system), 57GB used of which 50GB is in my home directory, 18GB free.
This is a fully loaded Linux Mint machine with a pile of extra crap. Firefox has 39 tabs open, some of them likely have flash running. This system would likely give bloat zealots a heart attack. Does it matter to me that it's "bloated" in someone else's opinion? Not the slightest bit. My system runs perfectly fine. Could it run faster, lighter? Sure, I might be able to get it to run 2% faster or optimize it so it subjectively seems to respond faster. But I'd have to be willing to babysit it, and I have better things to do than to babysit my system. For me, that was one of the great reasons to abandon Windows: it takes too much time to babysit it, and I don't want to spend my life doing that. If that's what you enjoy, be my guest, and choose a distro that does just that. But don't deny me my nice, "bloated" system where all the stuff I need in my day to day activities is right at my fingertips.
If you want to draw the environmental card and think a light system running on a beast of a computer is "green", think again. Your 4GB of RAM goes through its refresh cycle whether it is used or not. Your hard drive spins unused bits around just the same as it spins used bits. They aren't any lighter. An idle x86 CPU doesn't take even close to zero power, and making a system more "efficient" by continually running your CPU at 100% while compiling system updates is surely not the way to go. If you really want to make a light, green system, you have to change the hardware. Use an Atom, or better yet, an ARM instead of a x86 (think Beagleboard or Sheevaplug). Physically remove some of that RAM if you're not using it anyway. Swap that spinning 1TB hard drive for a small SSD if you're only using 4GB of drive space. And most of all, turn that computer OFF when you leave the office. What's the point of it sitting there burning power while you're not there for 2/3 of the day? But software bloat, that will make squat difference to your use of electricity on pretty much any modern system where you're not coming even close to the limits of the hardware.
88 • #86 Hi Landor (by anticapitalista on 2011-01-31 23:17:18 GMT from Greece)
Give antiX-core a try as it actually is slightly leaner than Debian. (at least in my tests) From the antiX family :)
89 • #87 (by anticapitalista on 2011-01-31 23:21:44 GMT from Greece)
But not everyone has the latest and greatest desktop/laptop/netbook.
And why should they have when an old PIII with 512MB RAM can perform just as well as the latest and greatest for most people's desktop use.
90 • @89 (by Patrick on 2011-01-31 23:45:41 GMT from United States)
Oh, don't get me wrong Anti, I have nothing against small light systems! On the contrary, I love what Linux can do to an old heap of junk and turn it into a very nice system. :)
I am just in favor of using the right tool for the job. Running a nice light system like AntiX on an old PIII is the right thing to do to make it usable. And there is nothing wrong with running it on a brand new system either. But there is also nothing wrong with what can be considered a "bloated" distro on a brand new system. As long as the OS, running the application a user uses, doesn't run into the limits of the system it is running on, it doesn't have to be considered "bloated", even if it is bigger than some alternative.
In my profession, I write code for tiny systems every day. Most of them run on bare metal, some on Linux. Most of my code is written in C, sometimes C++. Bloated code zealots like to attack C++, but in reality it can be just as efficient and fast as C. I even developed a Python app (another favorite target of bloat zealots) that ran just fine on a 32MB RAM, 8MB flash embedded Linux system. Sure, it would have run faster if I had written it in C, but why should I? It did the job just fine and cut my development time in less than half. My point is that there is really no use in NOT using existing system resources. If they exist, leaving them unused doesn't gain anything. If the resources are limited, that's when you need to start worrying about bloat and strip things down.
91 • #90 (by anticapitalista on 2011-01-31 23:52:46 GMT from Greece)
Good points Patrick.
LOL, latest antiX would probably be considered 'bloated' if compared to its first release.
92 • Kolibri (by Rudolf Steiner on 2011-01-31 23:53:45 GMT from United States)
Not only do I know what Kolibri is, butI use it time to time. And I am able to connect to the internet with it. So, hah!
My point is, Kolibri and Menuet are not the only bloat free distro/os's (interchangable) out there as you stated.
93 • @81 (by bodhi on 2011-02-01 00:19:27 GMT from United States)
My first Linux install was Gentoo for exactly the reasons you stated. Took me some time, but I learned a TON !
Since then I have yet to meet a new user (and I have introduced more then a few to Linux) who is looking for any such experience. I know may who want to learn, but they all want to start with a fully functional desktop.
In my experience, most new users want their systems to "just work" (tm) and include all the bells and whistles, from flash to DVD to ipods/iphones.
So while there are some new users who want do do what you describe, they are in the minority. Point them to Gentoo or LFS (Linux From Scratch).
94 • hasmtericide (by Diego on 2011-02-01 00:31:20 GMT from Argentina)
maybe this isn't the right place, but what is "hasmtericide"?
95 • review reactos (by Aswin Hanagal on 2011-02-01 00:35:00 GMT from India)
reactos is a very interesting project as it attepmts to completely reverse engineer redmonds flagship os. It is a 30 meg download and its alpha i suggest you give it a shot its fast
96 • Bloat.. (by SoFarSoGood on 2011-02-01 00:41:07 GMT from Germany)
Alright, we're into one of our favorite discussions now, are we? :P I like to add that i don't complain about desktop systems being bigger than 10 MB install size. I'm not arguing over things like python, which is a bigger package but frankly i dont see how not to have python on board if not targeting an extreme minimalistic/embedded installation. It's so common that developers/maintainers shall count on it being installed. And i won't bash anyone who installs gzip or libsqlite3 by default. I was referring to things like gnome-games, inkscape, an English-Japanese dictionary (KDE3)... hello? Earth to KDEguys, Earth to KDEguys, put the bottle away.. :O
97 • Re: 94, 95 (by Jesse on 2011-02-01 00:49:37 GMT from Canada)
Hamstericide is a made up word, combining "hamster" and "homicide", meaning to kill a hamster. I was making a joke in relation to the warning displayed by Chakra's installer.
I attempted to review ReactOS a while back. It refused to boot on any of the three machines I tried it on. Not a promising performance for a project that has been around for so long.
98 • bloat, is this an issue anymore , i mean really? (by brad on 2011-02-01 01:58:33 GMT from United States)
With fast processors, 3+minimum gigs of ram, with 500gig -2+ tb drives, and 256mb+ video cards.. what is bloat? so what if kde & gnome install everything.. there's plenty of room, plenty of resources, plenty of how-tos, wikis' & lots of googling one can do to streamline things( and if you are using linux on an older computer with limited resources, there's what a million distros now, pick one that's small and go for it, google's your friend.... but bloat is no longer an issue.. i mean gnome and kde are entire suites of programs (thats why kde SC , SC stands for SOFTWARE COLLECTION), bloat and resource hoggin' is not exactly a major (it's even less then a minor) LINUX problem... I could give lots of non linux examples.. like NERO (1+gig dvd, 2.5+gigs of space and 10 programs or more as part of it, i mean there's a nero media player), roxio another one, Nortons anything, even office isnt as bloated as it used to be, considering the sheer amount of features it has.. so bloat is relative.. heck I have some relatives that are bloated.. that's my .02 now I'm broke!
99 • Bloat and the way you write code (by JR on 2011-02-01 02:06:03 GMT from Brazil)
I think bloated environments has nothing to do with being easy to use, has much more to do with the type of programming (high or low level) and with the programming language used, a system "bloated" seems to come from an object-oriented programming language misused, eg ready-made objects that are used many times. You have to write the code and not just click and dragg objects. It is not a criticism, only what I think it happens ...
It does not have to do with systems that try to do everything automatically, but with systems that take too, too long for it even in recent hardware!
Think about it!
sorry for my bad english! I hope you understand what I'm trying to say!
100 • RE: 87 - 88 (by Landor on 2011-02-01 02:45:23 GMT from Canada)
This really doesn't have anything to do with the topic of a system being bloated, only about a comment that you made that I've noticed twice now. Well, the first time it was similar.
"But don't deny me my nice, "bloated" system where all the stuff I need in my day to day activities is right at my fingertips."
Do you take other people's opinions literally to heart? How could someone deny you your nice bloated system? I remember your firmware discussion, you spoke of how the FSF or RMS makes you feel when we discussed it that week. The comment you just made is extremely similar. I just find this really odd because nobody can deny you as much bloat as you want, nor could The FSF or RMS make you feel bad for using proprietary firmware. Very odd.
I have I think the original/first release of your core build kicking around here on one of my drives (I'm literally going to have to look to find it..lol). There's probably a newer release. It was also probably be quicker to download it than find the one I have...lol
Keep your stick on the ice...
101 • Picture the UNIX filesystem (by RollMeAway on 2011-02-01 03:03:11 GMT from United States)
Just think of the root system of a tree, not the stuff above ground.
/ (root) is at the ground level.
All the branches are in the root system (below ground) not above.
Pretty much mirrors what is above ground.
Makes it easier to visualize?
102 • Bloat???....I love bloat. (by Sly on 2011-02-01 05:55:22 GMT from United States)
For a while I thought KDE 3.5 was nirvana, but then KDE 3.5 was nirvana...but then SUSE 11.3 KDE came along and I was on a higher plane of nirvana.
103 • Bloat???....I love bloat. (by SLY on 2011-02-01 06:05:18 GMT from United States)
For a while I thought KDE 3.5 was nirvana,...but then SUSE 11.3 KDE 4.4 and Mint 10 Gnome came along and now I am on a higher plane of nirvana. I can't wait to try SUSE 11.4 with KDE 4.6. All so far on an old.pentium, P4 with 500mb of ram, which runs these two dual booted distros just fine.
BLOAT is good!!!
104 • Kolibri...etc (by Chdslv on 2011-02-01 06:40:35 GMT from Sri Lanka)
@ R. Steiner...If you can get into internet with Kolibri, let us know how to?
@ Davemc..."One would think that ALL Distro's should have a script that checks for hardware setups and installs only what is absolutely needed and nothing more, leaving the choice up to the user to setup his/her system from there."
Hope one day some developer(s) will do just that!
105 • Chakra (by mandog on 2011-02-01 07:44:09 GMT from United Kingdom)
About a year ago Chakra was not only installable but was stable as it cuddled up to Arch then the devs got on their high horse when Arch split up the kde packages for good reason so the end users can decide what to install under KISS, So Chakra then decided to move away slightly Then the leader sadly past away, Since then the whole project has gone into turmoil they now take Arch packages patch them repack them to suit there own weakness, the aim to make anything Arch incompatible, Arch on the other hand uses its well tried tested core and KDE 4.6 vanilla is the most stable version yet and compatible with GTK or what ever. Pardus although polished is no more stable than Arch. As for installing arch takes 90 mins to do a net install to a fully working KDE/Gnome desktop less time than it takes to download install and remove all the non working and unnecessary software from many. Gtkarch/Archbang/Larch are all good projects taking the Arch core and KISS to make some really stable distros in one year or so, How long has Chakra been in developement 3 maybe 4 years and still at early alpha stage.
106 • ---bang types (by Chdslv on 2011-02-01 08:02:01 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Don't forget Crunchbang, form which everything started in this ---bang distros!
And also don't forget Puppy Linux, which is quite magical...
107 • chroot & debootstrap (by Tom on 2011-02-01 09:41:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :) I am looking for a way to boot-up from an ubuntu iso image stored in my file-system rather than on the root of a drive. Is this likely to be fairly easy using the chroot and perhaps debootstrap?
The ldd command suggested earlier would use the older libraries on my current system rather than using the newer ones on the LiveCd?
Re: bloat. Why not have a dual-boot system
1st. fully bloated and ready to use
2nd. Building something from a minimalist approach until it is as 'bloated' as required but usable.
I think this debate shows that we have a definite need of different approaches within gnu&linux. We need some bloated "entry level" distros but it is vital that we also have distros at the other extreme. Then we need distros that give a less bloated version of some "entry level" distros. We need others, such as Chakra, that give faster and easier results but do give people a route into the minimalist ideals. I can't see any of these very different requirements becoming obsolete.
A system with no excess drivers might be difficult for some people that buy a printer or plug in a phone or something.
Regards from Tom :)
108 • Bloat and hardware (by megadriver on 2011-02-01 09:53:15 GMT from Spain)
@87 That's right. Bloat is related to hardware, too! A non-bloated OS allows me to use it quite comfortably on a cheap, underpowered machine, with "just" 1 GiB of RAM (which I find plenty) and a modest, fanless graphics card. Nonexistant RAM sticks and fans won't draw any electricity :)
For me, it's not about being "green" (fashionable as it may be), but about liking small, simple, efficient stuff, and feeling "in control" of my system. For some reason, this gives me peace of mind and makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside (weird, huh?). I'm not exactly affluent, either, so every little penny not spent counts!
Of course, to each their own... I actually feel much more comfortable in this small, tidy "Openbox apartment" of mine, than in one of those big, fancy "KDE4 mansions" a lot of people seem to love. Less stuff to "fix" and "clean", too!
I must confess I'm not hardcore enough to move to one of those even smaller and tidier "console apartments" I keep hearing about, though.
109 • Bloat, Opera (by mechanic on 2011-02-01 11:25:38 GMT from France)
1 How come the DWW comment entry box doesn't show in Opera? I have to use Chromium for this!
2. Bloat -> bigger software loads -> more bugs (one of the truisms in software engineering is that more code leads to more bugs).
110 • @85 Arch with Gnome desktop (by Neal on 2011-02-01 12:43:05 GMT from United States)
Take a look at that project. I've never sampled it but you asked...
111 • @104 (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2011-02-01 12:57:28 GMT from United States)
IIRC Mandriva has it where you install the system (in the liveCD environment) and then it offers to remove any unneeded drivers before the actual install starts. Though I wish it could remove all the unneeded i17n stuff, it is something Ilike to see copied by all the major "bloated" systems like *ubuntu, openSUSE and Fedora.
112 • Re:#99: Bloat and the way you write code (by JR) (by Leo on 2011-02-01 13:18:49 GMT from United States)
Your message is very clear. But I disagree in part. I think different people call different things "bloat". But, in terms of inefficient code using too much space in your drive, you can achieve it both with low level and high level languages. And you can write efficient, lean code both ways. But you are more likely to write good code if you use an object oriented language.
I've seen a lot of "C++ sucks, C rocks" messages here. I think this is nonsense. Sure, if you need a full operating system and desktop environment in an embedded system, you may some dramatic compromises. But that's about it.
113 • @70 & 71 (by Barnabyh on 2011-02-01 14:10:54 GMT from Germany)
I am fairly certain that you can blacklist whatever packages you don´t want (in pacman.conf if remember correctly) and then force install of whatever package you want, in this case mplayer, without dependencies.
114 • @87 Bloat (by Rick on 2011-02-01 14:53:41 GMT from Canada)
Patrick, I think you are my long lost twin. I find myself agreeing with every article and comment you make. I couldn't have said it better myself, or ever for that matter!
115 • 64 bit Macbuntu on 32 bit laptop... (by Chdslv on 2011-02-01 15:35:20 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Can anyone tell me how a 64 bit Macbuntu got itself installed on to a 32 bit computer?
I thought it won't work, but the Live Cd also got booted up. Thanks!
116 • More on bloat and stuff.. (by davemc on 2011-02-01 15:46:40 GMT from United States)
#87 - See, I actually agree with this and have found that using a Distro that allows that minimal install with zero bloat best accomplishes the end goal you seek. Its basically an install and forget system when your done. A system you build from a minimal base will be much more stable, run faster, is more secure, updates faster, archives faster, and provides more scalability without all the added bloat or wonky system default settings that some Developer put in there for you. You will have exactly the system you now enjoy but at half the hidden cost in resources and security holes. No muss, no fuss, easy as can be to accomplish and you don't have to babysit like you do with the bloated systems.
117 • @100, @99, 109 (by Patrick on 2011-02-01 16:03:13 GMT from United States)
Wow Landor, I thought this was a place to analyze distributions, not people. :)
Of course nobody can literally deny me my nice "bloated" distro, or my use of binary firmware. It is just that if some specific people would have these ideas, this COULD happen. For instance, if RMS somehow convinced Linus Torvalds to follow his ideas (not going to happen), I could end up with a system where some of my hardware didn't work because of a lack of binary drivers. Debian is a good example. I love the distro but I find their stance on binary firmware very inconvenient, because it causes me extra work when I need to install things I need. As to the bloat discussion, I was just trying to convey that if the bloat zealots would somehow convince distro makers that the only "right" way to go is a lean system, I would not be able to have the nice featured system (bloated in other people's mind) that I have today. Of course, this is not going to happen either. I was just trying to explain why both lean and bloated systems are useful and should exist and try to make the bloat zealots see things from another perspective, and how their perfect world with only lean systems would be less than perfect for me.
Maybe the way I write about things is just weird. Could be because English is not my native language. Maybe I don't express myself in a "normal" English way? :)
More code indeed increases the statistical chance to create bugs. However, I think that only applies when all the code is written from scratch. You can actually decrease the number of bugs by making use of functionality in well-tested libraries, instead of reinventing the wheel yourself. "Ready-made objects that are used many times", as the commenter in @99 likes to call it, are a GOOD thing. It may add some code bloat, as you probably don't use all functionality provided by the code in the libraries, but it greatly reduces the number of bugs in your application. Bloat zealots hate it when things pull in a bunch of dependencies, but writing code that makes use of well-tested library code really is the best way to make quality software, even if the end result is somewhat bigger. The same can be said for scripting languages like Python. They really are just a high-level glue to tie together functionality implemented in efficient well-tested libraries, and the end result is an application with less bugs. Not quite as efficient as writing everything from scratch for sure, but much more functional and generally less buggy. We would not nearly have the rich software ecosystem we have in Linux today if it wasn't for the efficient sharing of libraries and scripting tools that allow the limited number of developers we have to maximize what they can accomplish, instead of continually having to reinvent the wheel.
118 • Bloat (by Eric on 2011-02-01 16:36:56 GMT from United States)
If you find GNOME, KDE, or even XFCE to be bloated, use a lightweight window manager such as IceWM or openbox. If those are too bloated for you, you are free to use a CLI-only installation.
This isn't Windows, people. You have a choice. If you don't like the bloat of GNOME, don't install GNOME. But don't crap your pants because other people are choosing to use GNOME. They have a right to choose bloated software.
119 • @118 One man's bloat is another man's skinny (by Dick on 2011-02-01 18:17:58 GMT from Canada)
"They have a right to choose bloated software."
They have a right to choose what you consider to be bloated software.
120 • Bloated or not... (by Chdslv on 2011-02-01 18:36:25 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Oh, come on!
If anything that bloated, it is Windows 7 and before that Vista. Other than a way to get into the web, watch a DVD, listen a CD, write a simple letter these MS Windows pregnant cows don't give much. Only it allows any other massive software to be installed by just anyone. That's all there to it.
If one takes away all the goodies from a Linux distro, what is left is quite small, not like 6GB minimalistic Redmond stuff!
What GNU/Linux should do is to produce operating systems that can install any Open Source software from any repo.
That way, lot of developers would spend time making excellent software, while certain amount of good Linux operating systems be around for everyone. Today, it is the other way; there are umpteen amount of Ubuntu kids, while few anybody's operating systems around. We still don't have Google Sketchup and AutoCad for Linux! While Google is using Linux for its servers, it can't make Sketchup for Linux. Take free, but not give...
If someone would make such a Sketchup and/or autocad for Linux...
121 • @116 (by Patrick on 2011-02-01 21:10:16 GMT from United States)
You keep assuming that I have problems with my "bloated" system. I do not. I do not have to babysit it at all. It runs very smoothly since my PC has plenty of resources to do so.
Babysitting my system is what I had to do in Windows. It is also what I had to do during the time I ran Gentoo. At the time, I liked the challenges involved and liked playing with it. I didn't have much need for a reliable system that was always available for real work either. I'm not in that situation anymore. I still have a Gentoo install in a VM, for when I WANT to play. I got through the base install but ran out of time at the point where I needed to add a regular user. There's no X yet and I haven't found the time to get back to it. I also have an Arch install in a VM. I pretty much got to the same point on that one, it's just a console install for now. Haven't had the time yet to coax it along to a more functional state. My main system on the other hand is a nice, "bloated" Linux Mint at work and Ubuntu at home. They installed a fully functional system very quickly and don't give me any trouble whatsoever. I have spent way less time on babysitting either of them over several years than I've spent on just getting the base install of Arch and Gentoo done. Your experience may be different, but that's how things turned out for me.
Even though I do like the technical side of Linux for projects, and have put together tiny embedded Linux systems using buildroot, I don't have much interest in what makes desktop systems tick. I'm not a system administrator and don't have too much interest or experience in the security side of things. So unlike you, I'll happily accept the "wonky system default settings that some Developer put in there", because it is very likely that that developer DOES know better than me. Everyone is free to choose what they want to specialize in, and for me, setting up and fine tuning a desktop system is not it. If you enjoy it, great for you. But I would never get a system as functional as the nice "bloated" desktop I use if I had to build it from the ground up, so I'm happy someone else is doing it for me. So what if it takes more disk space or RAM? As long as my system has enough to handle it, it won't affect me in any way I would ever notice.
122 • @121 Bloat, stability, etc. (by Dick on 2011-02-01 21:49:05 GMT from Canada)
Having reached the ripe old age of 46, I find myself looking for a stable system that once set up, just works with a minimum of babysitting. For me, that leaves Debian stable. In my younger years, I would have latched onto Debian unstable or Gentoo or the like. One of the many complaints about Debian is the slow release cycle. Some of us actually like that, we have neither the time, nor patience to re-install, fix things or continually set up the desktop to perfection. As for bloat, it's all relative as discussed above. I guess as we age we also get a little bloated around the middle, so we don't mind if our system does too! And if I ever have some spare time, I can remove that unneeded video driver if it's really bugging me!
123 • Bloat?/Driver (by Anonymous on 2011-02-01 21:53:00 GMT from United States)
Is there a web page that clearly explains what advantages come from a bloated system?
I run windowmaker on a 500meg 1.6g system and it is very snappy.
I have tried gnome and kde before and I don't quite see the advantage, except my same box works much noticeably slower.
I started with computing with a TRS-80 model 1.
I wrote a basic program to play a game much like the arcade space-invaders.
It played well on the z-80 cpu (1mhz?) machine.
Being curious I wrote the same game with z-80 machine code using the T-bug program.
I made it command for command, as close as I could.
When I tried to play the game I realised that I could not.
As fast as I pushed enter to execute the game, it was over.
This demonstrated to me the advantage of pure machine code.
I had to code in some time wasting loops to allow it to be played.
Now I consider basic language bloated and slow, but it was easy to learn to use.
Also does anyone know of a way to use xfree86v3.3.6 with current Linux?
Is there an accelerated driver for cirrus logic 7543 cards in xorg?
Since xorg took over my old laptop is dog slow without accelerated X.
Thanks in advance
124 • Lean machine (by Jorge on 2011-02-01 23:15:23 GMT from Canada)
I have a 16-core 32 GHz Zentium 1024-bit processor with 512GB of sextuple-channel memory and a 500 yottabyte SSD. Yes it is fast, but I want to keep it lean, so I run a trimmed down version of Slitaz, no Xorg for sure on this baby! It's so fast, it finishes typing before I do. I am thinking of upgrading to tiny core linux but tiny core might be a little bloated for me. Any thoughts?
125 • @ 105 • Chakra (by forlin on 2011-02-02 01:30:54 GMT from Portugal)
"How long has Chakra been in developement 3 maybe 4 years and still at early alpha stage."
I'm surprised to know that they were still Alfa at present.
Judging by their release announcements here in DW it seemed they had different projects, some at Alfa stage, but not all of them.
So its 12 Alfa release announcements in 12 months?
126 • @112 @117 (by JR on 2011-02-02 03:40:32 GMT from Brazil)
You're right, using well-tested libraries equals fewer bugs because it is not a newly created code, well observed.
I'm just saying I do not agree with the idea: more features = bloat.
I want a system to autoconfigure itself and does not require me to do everything manually. Before I comment, it seems that the discussion was: less automation and no extra features = system free of bloat (which is probably true) and more automation, and extra features = bloated system (which I do not agree that it is true) . a system can be smart and free of bloat, just can not take so long that we do not know if it is dead or alive:):)
127 • Bufferbloat (by RJ on 2011-02-02 04:10:29 GMT from Canada)
Just sayin' bloat isn't limited to systems, and apparently linux is a leading culprit of bufferbloat because of it's prevalence in residential , consumer grade routers
128 • @124 - Lean machine! (by Chdslv on 2011-02-02 06:12:16 GMT from Sri Lanka)
It is nice reading the comments and such as 124 reminds us that there is more in this life...True enough, what we don't have is patience and we'd want the comp to start before we even push the button!
You are right, bloat or not, it is we, who don't have enough patience...
129 • Bloat (by win2linconvert on 2011-02-02 07:01:45 GMT from United States)
It seems to me that this argument about bloat is the same old argument the "It's the principle that counts" crowd has been having with the "As long as it works" crowd for probably since time began. It's an argument that will never end, at least not in this life time. That's what is so great about Linux, there's room enough for both crowds. If I'm using my main machine, I use Ultimate Edition (I really like bloat... I mean features and eye candy.) or if I'm tinkering with an old door stop I'll try a less feature laden, I mean bloated distro. Isn't choice great! Thanks for another interesting issue of DWW. Keep up the good work.
130 • @109 (by win2linconvert on 2011-02-02 07:45:13 GMT from United States)
Don't know why but here is the solution. Click: Tools - Quick Preferences - Edit Site Preferences - Network - Browser Identification - and either Identify as Firefox or Mask as Firefox. I had this same problem a week or so back and someone (I can't remember who.) was kind enough to help me. Always feels good to spread the love. Think I'll try that one on my wife... It might work.
131 • stats from Steam (by Tom on 2011-02-02 10:52:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
Have you seen the stats from Steam's 'hardware survey'?
Am i right in thinking this shows that 63.05% of Windows users are now using FireFox to visit their site and that 8.69% are using Safari! I wonder what their stats will show for Mac machines. Perhaps FireFox users are more keen to take part in the survey but this is a large poll by a large online resource for gamers i think?
Steam are likely to be heavily biased against Linux as they actively block linux systems so hopefully some of those 'Windows' systems are really Wine trying to fool them.
btw @ win2linconvert, superb post, good to see & good luck there!
Regards to all from Tom :)
132 • weird stats from Steam (by Tom on 2011-02-02 11:03:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
Lol, perhaps something to do with weird MicroSquish licenses but the Steam stats seem to show that 57.26% of their Windows users have MS Office installed but only 46.21% have Word?? OpenOffice appears to be on 14.63% but presumably LibreOffice is identified as being OpenOffice as the code-base is so similar. Heck, these are gamers so it's amazing to see any Office appear on their machines as it would be "bloat" for their gaming system/boot.
19.82% have Internet Explorer! Even Access database is on more machines and that is not even on the standard MS Office! So, that appears to be a dramatic win for FireFox!
Regarsd from Tom :)
133 • Roots of a problem (by Nobody on 2011-02-02 11:17:28 GMT from Canada)
Probably a good thing for DWW readers - most posts are focused of the euphemistic term "bloat" -
There, everybody can have a legitimate opinion, w/no right or wrong answers, as the topic is comletely subjective
Jesse - LOL :)- You must be breathing a sigh of relief to above -after questionable attempt to hastily reply to the chroot query
Esp. since the inquirer was not asked to qualify the useage (Plse note, the FIRST "multiple" question was - what IS chroot !)
Wouldn't it be have been better to direct the user to a fuller, more accurate resource
Not that the reply was all wrong - it seemed "overly simplistic", then exacerbated the outcome by muddying the waters via "upside down" tree terms
The "root" of the chroot problem so to speak
What if the question had been > what is a scheduler, how do I use it, BTW, is real time the same thing ?
See, actually three questions - none giving us much to go on
IMHO - reply as E.G.
"Dear reader, there are more than one, which scheduler did you want, what is being tried"
"If you just temporarily want to prioritise jobs, see use of bash's "ampersand" to background tasks"
"Alternatively, you may find the very useful command nice (please see the man pages > "nice") will work for you "-
"Failing that, the scheduler topic is so intricate, potentionally system damaging, please refer to (then supply good "official" resources)
I.E. Chroot is a very powerful tool, but to be used in conjunction with other utilities, tools, NOT as a stand-alone command
It is widely used for many/varied highly-specific needs - Gentoo commonly uses chroot to install the O/system via stages tarballs
As was obliquely noted, often used for initial file system mountings (initrd, squash, pivot root, etal)
It is respectfully contended, chroot is far too comlicated for DWW comments to do more than just touch on even the better known uses
I.E. FIRST setting the shell, exporting needed support, (sandboxed environement?), installing specific dependecies
all required services - culminating in updating the environment/path -
Readily found URLs:
134 • Bittorrent stats (by Ydobon on 2011-02-02 13:13:17 GMT from Canada)
Another interesting statistic I noticed recently is in the list of peers when downloading using my bittorrent client. I routinely notice that the number of Transmission clients is up to 15% of the total peers and sometimes more. While most of the linux bt clients are cross-platform, I'd wager that most Windows users will use one of the windows-only clients.
So, possibly this shows that among the downloader segment of internet users, Linux is making bigger inroads.
135 • Trimming out all the fat... (by Chdslv on 2011-02-02 14:03:07 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Have a look at below website and the part about "Rationale". He can trim the fat, while others can't of the same package. Mainstream Linux distros package are certainly large, and PC-BSD ones are double the Linux ones. But, .pet packages are very small, and they are the same software programs!
For example Gimp 2.6.8 .tar.bz is ~15MB, while the .pet one is just 6.3M and both work just the same. So, someone is bloating, are they?
136 • Bloat is the wrong term and stuff.. (by davemc on 2011-02-02 16:01:48 GMT from United States)
#135 - I don't think so. Your right in that its the same package, but your comparing a tarball to a Puppy package. The tarball probably contains most of the dependancies while the .pet contains only the packages needed for it to run on Puppy. Since Puppy already has things like GTK installed for example, it is not needed to package that in the .pet package.
Bloat is the wrong term to use here and as a consequence you have many different sidebar discussions that are discussing various aspects of what they consider to be bloat, but no two seem to share the same view of exactly what the term really means.
For example, Patrick thinks running LinuxMint = a bloated system. Hes content running LM but he thinks its bloated. Is it really bloated?.. I have run LM in both the KDE and GNOME flavors and it has never broken 1G in RAM usage, and typically idles at 400M. Once I dump the Bluetooth Daemons it drops to 390M or so. Looking at it from the resource usage perspective, that is certainly not bloated. As a comparison my Kubuntu 10.04 mega system with everything installed that I ever wanted to try and every service enabled that I wanted to try enabling idles at 1G. That's a fat system. The relative thing is that my Kubuntu system is an 8G, quad core, mega video card system so it actually handles the load with a smile and keeps right on zipping along with lightning speed. If I were to put that same load onto my old P4, 256M system, well, on second thought, lets not try that...
As a comparison I now have a Debian Squeeze KDE install and it idles at ~300M and with 42 tabs up in Iceweasel plus 13 other apps running plus Compiz and it hums along at 866M. Apps launch near instantly with zero loading times and they execute their functions near instantly on a dual core, 1G laptop. That same laptop with base LM installed.. well.. there is a very stark and very real noticeable difference in performance. On that laptop running LM from a resource usage perspective just does not make sense because the Laptop performance noticeably degrades by quite a bit. I guess that is bloat?
Others (myself included) have argued that bloat is not necessarily in what is installed on your system, but ~how~ it is installed and configured. Improper configurations leave your system open to attack and can also severely degrade your systems performance overall. Also, having non essential (read - things you wont ever need or use) services running on a system due to base install is "bloat"?
I think others view bloat as any application beyond what is essential for your day to day use installed on your hard drive. So I guess thats hard drive bloating, but not necessarily things that utilize the CPU or RAM... Like having both OOO and LibreOffice installed on your hard drive at the same time, or having both Firefox and Chrome installed, or even KDE and GNOME.
137 • Re post # 135 Chdslv (by Nobody on 2011-02-02 16:06:07 GMT from Canada)
Same - but different ?
OK - i'll bite - so what is missing - something you don't need/want or just have not noticed yet ?
If you wish to keep lauding Puppy as a paradigm of efficiency... for starters, Plse consider:
By default, the only browser is Midori
I.E. NO Gimp - some common bash commands, Gnu utilities are missing, (see Quickpet offerings)
Does not adhere to linux FSH standards
Woof - bark at this - If binaries are "borrowed" then stripped/modified for Puppy
AFAIK, "They" MUST maintain a GPL'd repository of "packages"
Otherwise, any distro can just say - "See the up-stream maintainers"
B.K. is taking his own way of approach - & Puppy is maturing
But hardly the only minimalist one
I don't know if Barry ever used T2 for a complete build - it was always an uneasy mix of latest ideas.
BTW Puppy "lucid" is not Barry's -Plse see "QUIRKY"
It is interesting, but twenty-one shortcut-icons cluttering up the desktop ?
Not counting the users' discovered drives displayed
Now - if the fans of larger distributions want to run entirely in RAM -aka pupy - they had BETTER have lots
At least 1 1/2 time the size of the image
Want a clean build - roll your own - in a "clean" environment - otherwise ld will trip you up
Might also be good to use fuse, trace points, de-bug tools
Just to try to find where things go awry
138 • @ 137 (by Chdslv on 2011-02-02 17:02:07 GMT from Sri Lanka)
"twenty-one shortcut-icons cluttering up the desktop?'
have you noticed why those 21 (!) shortcut-icons on the desktop? To show that anything and everything is possible with Puppy Linux and Puplets! Do you know that you can delete ALL those 21 icons and still you can find the links by right-clicking.
@136, if there are dependencies, which comes with the tarball, and your distro has the stuff already in it, why do you want to download and fill it with all the "extra" stuff? Every time, you download a program, you'd be just adding stuff you already have inn many programs, right? In other words, you say that Puppy actually found a way out of cluttering the computer, right? Once the dependencies are within Puppy once, it doesn't need to have them brought in many times, right?
You need to write letter, you can Abiword is there, but it is much smaller than in your distro, right? You need a calculator, it is there too. You need to burn a iso, it is there too. Some large distros don't have a pdf viewer, right? The list is long, so have a look at puppy repository...
What would happen, if some Australian billionaires come out to sponsor Puppy?!
139 • Puppy Linux... (by Chdslv on 2011-02-02 17:11:46 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Most reviewers start like this; "The most recent release of Puppy Linux, version 5.1 “Lucid Puppy” has some huge changes which include binary compatibility with Ubuntu 10.04 packages.."
Notice the words "include binary compatibility with..."
It is not that Puppy Linux has compatibility, but Puppy can pull the software from other repos! puppy didn't wait till Ubuntu 10.04 give it the compatibility, but Puppy made it by itself.
It can take software from slackware and others too, and in the near future, if not already .rpm would be pulled in.
This is what I wrote earlier last week. Are there any other operating systems that can do the magic of Puppy and puplets, now Quirky too? There are none!
140 • Pburn 3.3.3 (by Chdslv on 2011-02-02 17:39:28 GMT from Sri Lanka)
There is a iso/CD/DVD/Media burning software named Pburn 3.3.3, which is just 64.2K, and when it started it was ~62,4K.
Now we have Brasero, which fails almost all the time, so I downloaded K3B to my Ubuntu 10.04 and not always it can see the CD-RW to blank it even,but Pburn 3.3.3.pet with a size of 64.2K can do it every time, even with old scratched CDRWs.
How large is Brasero or K3b?
141 • @136 (by Patrick on 2011-02-02 17:53:10 GMT from United States)
"""The tarball probably contains most of the dependancies"""
I highly doubt that. This might be the case for a PC-BSD PBI, but that is exactly the reason I don't like that kind of system. System-wide shared libraries are a much better idea than duplicating them for each application. I'm pretty sure that on most Linux systems, such duplication of dependencies in each package is not done. That's the whole point of the package management system, to make sure that dependencies that live in separate packages in the repository get pulled in when they are needed.
"""For example, Patrick thinks running LinuxMint = a bloated system. Hes content running LM but he thinks its bloated."""
Oh boy, I must be really bad at explaining myself clearly. :) My whole point was that I personally do NOT find Linux Mint bloated on this machine, because the system has plenty of resources to run it just fine. My use of the term "bloated" for Linux Mint was in response to sweeping comments like @1 complaining about the "bloated" size of modern desktop environments.
My opinion is that a system is bloated only if you run software on it that the hardware has trouble handling. That would make AntiX bloated if you try to run it on a 386 and it also makes KDE4 NOT bloated when it is used on pretty much any system you can buy in a store nowadays.
142 • How about stability? (by Leo on 2011-02-02 18:43:43 GMT from United States)
It's funny how extended the "bloat" discussion went. I think it is mostly that you can understand "bloat" in different ways.
Me? I would much rather not see memory leaks and crashes. The formers can be eliminated by the use of smart pointers. The former, in part, can be eliminated with the same tool. Or using higher level programming techniques, such as container classes that check for boundaries.
Many die-hard minimalistic folks will say that all of these things introduce bloat and what not. But I'll rather not see memory leaks and crashes, than have a more unstable/unreliable system that uses 20% less disk and works 10% faster.
143 • Now why didn't I think of that (by Nobody on 2011-02-02 18:58:03 GMT from Canada)
Gee deleting icons - how clever - which to go first - chat, paint, draw, plan or draw.... but wait - certainly THEY are not "feature" bloat ?
Why indeed even use the a taskbar/"start" menu - use icons
Throw away the keyboard - We can always "mouse" (cut/ paste) all code
K3b - I used others - it's the one reliable KDE utility most used besides Konqueror- as a F/Mgr - 'tho MC has all the tools most needed
But, all are GUI front-ends to cdrecord/growiso - IF you know how use the CLI
BTW if you wish to re-write, compare DVD vs CD - technically DVD is vastly superior
PS - I use Gentoo and installed Calculate to assess, after dismissing Sabayon (too bloated) so I guess I could somehow struggle & learn how to delete icons
In truth, Puppy isn't bad - just too "cutesy" woof-bark-bones & all
However, the dog kennel didn't magically become "compatible" by itself - it TAKES from the hard work of others
How quickly some people forget all the vitriole Re - Stems from, What if Buntu/Deb disappeared ?
As for the NEW concept of "woof" - Google the METRO project - then follow last week's topic - the proposed repository #API addressing
# <-- bad choice of acronym, Application_Program_Interface (to kernel ) already exists
Thinking about, it always seemed a bad choice to call the lowest hierarchy directory "/" (root) - then name root (super-admin home directory) as a branch
144 • Tarballs vs. package management (by davemc on 2011-02-02 19:08:23 GMT from United States)
#141 - Exactly, and that was my point. You cant really compare a source tarball to a .pet or a .deb, or a .rpm or whatever packaged binary as #135 did.
I thought that's what you meant about bloat but far be it from me to not take you at your own written word or assume you have hidden meanings.
"But don't deny me my nice, "bloated" system where all the stuff I need in my day to day activities is right at my fingertips."
As I pointed out above, the word "bloat" seems to have a different meaning for different people.
145 • Re #141 (by Nobody on 2011-02-02 19:09:46 GMT from Canada)
Useage dictates need - please Google linux static vs dynamic libraries -then consider embedded systems, &/or co-existing , &/or newer plus older versioning
Space is ONE of the trade offs - once loaded into memory, that distinction is moot
Then consider why pre-linking became popular
146 • @143 extra-saucy lean machine (by Jorge on 2011-02-02 20:49:36 GMT from Canada)
"Throw away the keyboard - We can always "mouse" (cut/ paste) all code"
Heck, I've decided that every time I turn on the computer, I will program a new O/S from scratch in machine code, one that will accomplish the task I want to do at that particular time. Then as I power down, I will delete the bits in reverse order, just to keep it nice and tidy.
I will use a high powered microscope and manually flip the bits on the CPU and RAM, just so I don't need any heavyweight applications to do the programming.
Seriously though, if that doesn't work, I'm sure I can hack a web browser into GRUB to surf the net.
147 • Bloat (by Anonymous on 2011-02-02 20:50:12 GMT from United States)
I used to use Slackware, way back then.
It ran fine with X-windowing on a 200Meg harddrive and 8Megs of ram plus swap (lots of apps installed too).
There also was plenty of un-used space on that same drive (about 50% empty).
Slowly over the years this soon became impossible as the OS and Apps got bigger.
Just think, today people are casually using systems with over 1Gig of ram.
Back then they were saying things like the whole encyclopedia Britanica would fit in about 1Gigabyte.
I really do not care how much ram or drive things need, except for one point.
Back when a system used very little ram, say way less than 1Meg, it was easy to examine and fix. Now with several hundred megs where does one start?
Does anyone here comprehend what 1Meg ,10Meg, 100Meg, or 1Gig of anything requires or does?
The last 4 or 5 generations of Debian that I have used still basically look and feel the same on my desktop. It all does the same tasks for me. But as I up-graded the OS and the apps (FireFox), the basic system requirements have grown.
I went from i386 32Meg system to now 1.6GHz Athlon 500Meg system in small steps over the years. The biggest new capability now is full screen video playback.
The game Doom ran fine on a basic i386-16Mhz box using EGA(or CGA?) graphics.
Now I only have an Nvidia gx4000 and UnrealTournament is a bit slow to render.
Please note that 1.6GHz is 1Billion 600Million Cycles per Second.
Also note modern CPU's do things like pipeline instructions, etc so you may actually get much more instructions accomplished then the actual clock rate (1.6Ghz).
If a modern CPU can't provide a smooth desktop experience with that many instructions per second happening, then I call that "BLOATED!" and really wonder if anyone actually cares about basic programming anymore. I do understand basic I/O is a bottleneck for the CPU, but also why is so much data needed to be shifting on and off the HD?
Indeed why so much ram usage as well?
I know that basically Linux systems are written using high level languages to make it easy to port to other systems or hardware, but I think some of this is just getting bigger than it has to be.
Perhaps someone who actually understands what I am referring to can explain it better.
I know I am not totally wrong in saying any of this, just maybe not exactly clear on it.
Remember when people were saying Linux is far better since Vista needed 2Gigs or ram?
Now just a few years later and people say why don't you have 2 or more Gigs ram in your Linux box, come-on-get-with-the-program!
Looks like Linux is catching up with those Vista people.
Not me I like using something which needs far less to do much more and quicker.
What do you think? Sorry if I mis-spoke about anything.
148 • Kodak printer (by grady on 2011-02-02 22:24:59 GMT from United States)
I need a driver to use Kodak esp3250 printer.
149 • Kodak (by Anonymous on 2011-02-02 23:17:57 GMT from United States)
150 • @147 (by subg on 2011-02-03 00:28:23 GMT from United States)
Point taken, but are the features and game experience of Doom and UnrealTournament comparable? Full screen video unnecessary? What about WYSIWYG word processing? Once again, it comes back to how one defines need and excess. I was happy to throw out my 286.
Efficient and stable code is one thing, but old hardware is just for fun - my old spare is fun to tinker with (e.g. Antix or OpenBSD), but just an amusement nonetheless.
151 • More bloat and things... (by davemc on 2011-02-03 02:17:38 GMT from United States)
#147- "Looks like Linux is catching up with those Vista people.
Not me I like using something which needs far less to do much more and quicker.
What do you think? Sorry if I mis-spoke about anything."
Your point was actually the best of this confused thread. I too remember those days not so long ago and your right. Somewhere along the line programmers decided that adding a host of worthless "features" to all the most widely used apps was the way to go and went got caught up in a fever pitched effort to race each other to be the bloat king of the road. I think if you stripped out all the most worthless of these "features" you would end up with the same app doing exactly what you love it doing and just as well, but the app would probably end up being less than half the size and run 2-3 times as fast, and probably be more secure to boot. It sure would be nice to see an effort like this done to clean up the code of all the major projects and the sooner the better.
152 • Pburn and Puppy Linux (by Chdslv on 2011-02-03 03:40:52 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Check the following link out.
A guy named Zigbert from Norway had made it and as he says; Pburn-3.3.3 (65 kb) - including theme: Mini...
Now, why can't other guys can't make such small good software? Why so large Brasero fails most of the time? Why such programs can't see old scratched CDs/DVDs? How come this small program sees the scratched ones?
I tried to find out, if there is Pburn for Ubuntu, but I couldn't. If anyone can, let me know. It'd be nice to have a good iso burning software for Ubuntu!
153 • Bloat is bad - results in gas (by Nobody on 2011-02-03 04:41:35 GMT from Canada)
286 - not running Linux
I started, completely computer illiterate - on a discarded 286 the wife brought home from work
No web, little help (except magazines) came with Dos 4 something, but a big step up to use - had Xtree-Pro , the original predecessor to MC
Two months later, it ran Dos 6.2 (4 floppies) and W3.5 (6 floppies) Slow as H -- but ran - NO extended mem
Much later, a "state of the art" 486, high mem optimised better than the popular Quarterdeck utility
Recall the A20 gate, and TSR's ?
Games drove the hardware races wars - developers no longer needed to be very careful of tight, efficient code practices
(my :JIT" crude attempts always arrived late)
Instability - often the result of over-optimised compiler flags (see Acovea)
Biggest security gitches - buffer overflows _ careless coding, habitual clicking on embedded graphical links - surfing sites without verifying cerificates
Universally enabling Browser Java runtime & cookies always accepted
Chdslv - did Puppy eat your keyboard ?
Learn to use the CLI unlike M./Soft., there actually is a user_to_ kernel interface
Just don't cut&paste commands from an "Gooey" icon
BTW those YoLinux tutorials are very concice
Summary - if even Aye benefited from the content - (wink) think what an informed lad like yourself might glean
154 • Pburn (by Anonymous on 2011-02-03 04:49:22 GMT from United States)
OK, I downloaded the pburn-3.3.3.pet and looked into it.
In it I found that it is basically a "#! /bin/sh" (bash?) script.
I understand that this is a shell script which automates using other tools like cdrecord,etc.
If you look at the above link in #152, you will see the other dependencies which would be needed to use pburn. It simply doesn't burn all by itself. - cdrkit/cdrtools (522 kb), for example. This is simply the *nix philosophy, use many tools as one bigger one.
Now me personally being a Debian user, I also searched for and found burn_0.4.3-2.1+lenny1_i386.deb, a python (script) burn tool.
On my file system:
pburn-3.3.3.pet _____________ used 66185 Kbytes of space
burn_0.4.3-2.1+lenny1_i386.deb used 28842 Kbytes of space
Please note both require other progams/libraries to function/work.
Also note that the Debian burn package contains setup files and documentation and a man page for the system.
I do admit that I do not know if these two do EXACTLY the SAME THINGS, but I did this small research simply to show package size, and actually not even scientifically at that.
As far as I know, every burn package I have looked at simply is a Front-End for the basic cdrecord tool(package) or the newer wodim tool(package) or others.
I personally have used Xcdroast on many occasions without any troubles.
I have noticed that if I setup my system to use /dev/hda for my burner, there is a long delay when accessing the drive, this is not the case if I use the "idescsi" emulation, it just burns without any delays; go figure...
I hope this helps more than confuses, I too am still learning, thanks.
155 • Addendum (by Nobody on 2011-02-03 05:05:37 GMT from Canada)
Chdslv - if reading suggested URL is too boring, cut/paste:
cdrecord dev="1,0,0" -v -eject speed=4 blank=all
Opps - forgot - Puppy's "efficient" urxvt doesn't have that capability
You Do know how to find your optical device's bus, right
#Dmesg | tail
# Dmesg | grep CD
Too time consuming - Zigbert method - click SR-nx
Happy burning -
156 • Re:153 (by Anonymous on 2011-02-03 05:09:34 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the link.
I also like this one:
Titled: "Why use or switch to Linux?:"
yolinux.com seems to have a lot of info.
157 • @ 153 to 155 (by Anonymous on 2011-02-03 06:14:01 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I know how to use CLI, I may not remember all the commands, but I can always look for them. The first time was with old DOS, quite a long time ago...
Now you guys are in a fighting mood, hey but I am not. I talk, discuss and learn...until, I suppose the last day on earth!
Anyway, you guys had said one thing; there are software, which uses other software, which is in the OS and give the end-user what he wants, for example in my case burning isos in my old CDRWs/DVDRWs.
I had a very bad time with Brasero, and also with K3B. There were times I had to boot up Windows 7 and use Imgburn. It did the work, which Brasero andK3B didn't. Most times Unetbootin fails in a Linux OS - Ubuntu, Mint, LMDE, and even in Crunchbang, which is my main OS.
Actually, I was a Ubuntu user (fan?) from its beginning, But I return to other Ubuntu children always. And Puppy never goes away, and also never eats my keyboard, he, he!
Linux was in my home, when my son and his friends were writing non-stop on 486 comp. They were in love with Linux. Well, today none is there, and they are using Windows 7. (Hey, don't worry that I am writing from Sri Lanka, for my main country is in Europe.)
But, I am still with Linux and will be until Linux will be there. So, don't worry about CLI, etc.
There is not much in the web about how Linux kernel works, or how Debian works, or how Arch works, etc, but you can have a very good article on how Puppy works!
And guys, don't go at animals, for one time or other you had a pet! Let Barry call his Linux Puppy...and he won't mind you use his Puppy base and make a puplet and call it catty or hamster or even crocodile...
Put a smile on your faces, guys, it is sunny outside!
Have a nice day!
158 • yolinux.com/TUTORIALS/ (by Chdslv on 2011-02-03 06:26:24 GMT from Sri Lanka)
It is just talk and some against MS Windows. If he is writing about Linux, what do we want to know about DLL-Hell of MS Windows???
That is Bill Gates problem, not ours.
Yolinux write; "Linux avoids the MS/Windows "DLL HELL", which causes Windows or its applications to fail when a newer or incompatible run-time dynamic linked library (DLL) is installed. (See Microsoft DLL database used to help avoid conflicts.)"
We are here to listen to Linux, not MS windows, right guys?
159 • Post 158 & previous (by Nobody on 2011-02-03 09:12:23 GMT from Canada)
"I know how to use CLI,"
Perhaps just shaky then ? - When your solution is to use Windows to bypass a hurdle you seem to have difficulties to overcome
To unequivocally make statements about "failures" of various Linux GUI utilities - not the underlying user's ability to interface (command interpreter) for kernel ABI calls to applications
Then conclude by linking "bad developing" to how/why any do not work
> Might hold more credence if most other users reported the same results
"We are here to listen to Linux, not MS windows, right guys?"
Post # 156 in essence, remarked it seemed well presented - most Linux advocates would agree
Please think how many newer DWW readers (possibly present windows users seeking relief) may be here
To learn what to expect, differences ~
Quote: "I talk, discuss and learn."
To assess, from your dubious conclusions - the learning part seems to be somewhat
Errm.... in doubt
Quote: "There is not much in the web about how Linux kernel works,"
OMDG - did you try - or Google > Linux Kernel
If anything - there is an over-abundance of data to be found
Perhaps you look in the wrong places -
Quote: " but you can have a very good article on how Puppy works!"
Compared to what -
To paraphrase, "your problem not ours"
160 • Easy CD burning for the CLI (by megadriver on 2011-02-03 09:21:38 GMT from Spain)
Check out Burn-CD (Python2 wrapper for cdrecord & co.)
I swear by it.
161 • Bloat (by fernbap on 2011-02-03 09:49:51 GMT from Portugal)
I had a nice PC. 8088, 8 MHz, 640 Kb RAM, 20 Mb HD. With it i could do word processing, use spreadsheets, it had a nice database, and several programming editors.
I guess all computers after that one are bloated, since they continue to do the same jobs....
162 • Bloat, linux (by mechanic on 2011-02-03 10:19:56 GMT from France)
Yes, we can't agree a definition of bloat, but I'm sure we know it when we see it! And it all started with gnu utilities, just look at the man pages for ls, wget, and many others with far too many parameters and options. One task, one program, it's the Unix way!
163 • Life's to short. (by William Purkis on 2011-02-03 10:53:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
Like Patrick I use a well bloated system (PCLinuxOS) because it gives me what I want unfailingly, and it loads in zero seconds of my life. No magic, I switch-on the PC and go and make myself a coffee; when I return it's there, up and running. Of course, with a fast Distro, I could sit there, glued to the screen, stop watch in hand, measuring my life tick away, but I don't.
164 • Life's to short (by RobertD on 2011-02-03 11:59:02 GMT from United States)
I agree completely. Coffee is good, and so is Slackware.
165 • Linux Mint and LMDE (by George on 2011-02-03 18:45:30 GMT from Romania)
Please include LMDE alone in the statistics, not under Linux Mint. LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) is not the same with Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu)... I want to see LMDE`s position...
166 • Say what ? (by Nobody on 2011-02-03 19:12:52 GMT from Canada)
RE # 162
Where DO these notions stem from - not history
Example - you are entitled to your own opinions on subjective matters:
NOT your own uttered as "facts" -Esp where well documented history has been recorded
Show files (ls) was one of original Unix commands - by far preceding Gnu utilities -which also came before the Linux kernel
The comment RE too-many parameters - is so weird, it's silly
Without optional parameters, commands having I.E. single functions only, would be virtually useless.
You are implying , one task _ as what - a simplistic show files (ls) as example ?
THINK for a moment what all takes place when the requested file system is displayed
More complicated processes require any number of parent/child processes - the "functions" of an integrated application
167 • Linux Mint and LMDE (by willi-amp on 2011-02-03 19:56:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
George @165 is quite right, lumped together the hits LM registers currently are meaningless. But it does beg the question, 'how long will this go on'? After all, why should Clem want to maintain two quite separate distros? He obviously sets out to build a quality product aimed at adult desktop users and he has probably become tired of trying to create a silk purse out of a very second-rate sows ear. History tells us that, early on, Shuttleworth persuaded Warren Woodford to use Ubuntu as a base for Mepis and it resulted in a big mess. It took a considerable amount work to recover from that but Mepis got back to Debian roots and it has remained a respected distro ever since. Knowing that, it will be interesting to see by how much Mepis and the finished LMDE will differ.
168 • re: Nothing in particular. (by hab on 2011-02-03 21:31:03 GMT from Canada)
All of this dry discussion about bloat and such led me off plot a bit (mind tends to wander a bit, 'dontcha know) and let me meander to here: http://www.rense.com/ScanningElectronMicrosc.html.
That first image just gives me a chuckle, and we are barely 50 years into the computer/microelectronics age.
And i would be remiss if i didn't point to sheevaplug as they have updated their nifty device here: http://www.plugcomputer.org/. This is one cool little comp and it seems to be getting better with every baking!
169 • re #89 antiX on those P3 machines (by gnomic on 2011-02-03 21:45:47 GMT from New Zealand)
antiX is doing OK here on a P3 Compaq E500 laptop, 600MHz with 320MB RAM in live sessions. Have been using the public test of M11 base version. This allows me to load up SeaMonkey with 10 tabs or so of heavyish web pages like the UK Guardian newspaper. Comes with Flashblock (which should be compulsory in my humble opinion - don't browse without it). Other browsers on sundry lightweight distros won't function on this system - they fall over quickly. Firefox, Chrome, Opera, all too heavy from my observations. antiX w/Seamonkey, just right! Now if only the gui wasn't set up to be so gray . . . . Maybe the final will have a couple of extra style options in Fluxbox ;-)
170 • Re:158 (by Anonymous on 2011-02-03 23:43:13 GMT from United States)
You forgot the line:
"Linux employs version numbers in its run-time shared object libraries, which can therefore coexist on the system with different versions of the same libraries."
Which shows the difference of many versions of libraries(dll's) on a Linux system vs one on a MS system.
Whether or not this is true either way, maybe someone more knowledgable can explain.
171 • Re:162,166 (by Anonymous on 2011-02-03 23:49:52 GMT from United States)
And just recently I wanted to know how many files are in a directory here.
When I read the man page for ls and all of those many many options,
well; it does not do that.
Apparently one of the suggested methods is to pipe ls(list files) to wc(word count).
ls -l | wc -l
to get an answer the *nix way.
which some sites mention (+ or - 1) may or may not be the desired count, depending on how the files are listed. ymmv.
172 • Linux Kernel Search (by Anonymous on 2011-02-03 23:55:05 GMT from United States)
Google: linux kernel
Get: About 7,770,000 results (0.09 seconds)
173 • File Count (by Anonymous on 2011-02-04 00:02:39 GMT from United States)
I did notice that ls -1 is different than ls -l.
ls -l gives one more line than ls -1.
ls -l shows a "total" line.
174 • @159 a Nobody from Canada.. (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 03:23:02 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Boy! You guys appear argue with me for nothing. Sometimes the truth is hard swallow...
OK, as this Nobody is from Canada, I believe he would love to defend Arch...OK, here is an experiment done yesterday...I had time as today is a holiday in Sri Lanka...
I took 3 used CDRWs and used Crunchbang, CTKArch, Archbang, and Kubuntu for this. I had already downloaded Arch core.
I used Brasero, K3B and also the CLI method to try to blank these CDRWs and burn Arch Core to "one" of them. Brasero failed. K#B failed, and strangely, CLI method failed too in ALL these distros!
So, I took my Puppy Linux on a usb stick (this laptop doesn't have it on board - a Lenovo T400, other machine has) booted into Puppy in a jiffy. Got pburn to come up, and...in the first try, it found the old CDRW and blanked it and burned the iso! No hassle, no worries, it just worked! I was actually pretty sorry that my main distro - Crunchbang failed with Brasero...
Now, here comes the Arch Core and let me play with it installing. Hmmm..there is no "Official Installation Guide" after installing.
So far so good...Arch Linux was installed after a lot of questions & answers, and came up with a horrible dark blue Grub screen. Never seen such a horrible colour!
OK, forget the colour, for I can get back the Grub screen of Crunchbang...Let's start adding xorg, mesa, mesa-demos, Synaptics, video drivers etc, etc and a WM and/or a DE. Before that we can, of course, check if X starts...well, X started, but had only 2 "- -" on the screen. Went back and read the whole "Installation Guide"...everything was done exactly as written...but no X, only a blank screen with 2 --s! A WM went in, a DE went in...I read a book while all this rigmarole went on...It was lovely to read a book physically, rather than on the screen!
Nothing! So, I finally went back to my sure Crunchbang, and with the help of Puppy got in to Arch files, and made some changes and got my simple Crunchbang grub screen.
Maybe, I'd go and play with getting Arch on, but when I think about that horrible blue grub screen, I might not. Actually, what for? Archbang Symbiosis and CTKArch works like a charm!
Will I throw away scratched old CDRWs or DVDRWs? No, until I have Puppy Linux around, and if it states that I can't use these CDRWs/DVDRWs, I will use them. It is not the cost of such, for a CD-RW costs less than 17cents and a DVD less than 35cents (US) here.
175 • 161 • Bloat by fernbap from Portugal (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 03:31:11 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I had a nice PC. 8088, 8 MHz, 640 Kb RAM, 20 Mb HD. With it i could do word processing, use spreadsheets, it had a nice database, and several programming editors.
I guess all computers after that one are bloated, since they continue to do the same jobs....
Fernbap is quite right...I had that computer too and the lovely Sinclair...Technology should make things happen in a simple way...
176 • Lack of details (by Nobody on 2011-02-04 05:33:00 GMT from Canada)
Re #174 Chdslv:
You are in good company, we ALL have our pet software peeves
That aside, are you informing us:
~ The mentioned Gui utilities &/or scripts will always fail
~ Those Distros must contain confirmed bugs - because of _
~ A round -about way of asking for assistance ?
(There are more appropriate sites to find out, but DWW staff and it's readers are very generous in helping others)
If the latter, more info is needed - every step taken, permissions used, error Msg's noted
Was the burner not found - if found did you mount it automatically, or manually
I.E. with the previously formatted disc in tray ?
- If tray is loaded, many systems load/ display contents
What command line was used
If legitimate bugs - did you go to the respective forums, ask or report findings
Plse note: Dww's "from" tag may be incorrect - it relies on browser's user agent
Google > Tor Onion
Continue to blog there is no solution = bugs
Take the easier_for_you work around, or work to find the cause of glitches
It may be more "practical" for you not "waste" time on problems found
Others may view them as an opportunity to learn more, consider it a challenge,
testing present level of computer skills
If any one method, O/Sys was idiot proof, all others would soon fade away
Then what would loyal -distribution fans, DWW readers, blog about
177 • Burning to know (by Nobody on 2011-02-04 06:49:15 GMT from Canada)
Keep this, up may have to change the tag-line to TRINITY
Re post #160:
Burn-cd appears to be a very good, light-weight alternative to GUI front-ends
Web data/reviews were lacking - screenshots non-informative of some things
If you would so kind as to pass on more info:
Does the text-based front-end give user a choice of burn method (DAO, TAO, etc.)
IMO - Most App defaults are generally OK - choice is better
What about verbosity - if error Msg's;
Simulated (dummy) burning run
The screen shots showed timed operations, impressive, but scant info on hardware Specs
I always welcome CLI over resource _ hungry, hidden_behind_the_GUI, "conveniences"
Is that yet another less_bloat fixation ?
178 • @Nobody.. (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 07:07:59 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Oh, come on!
I have been reading DWW at least for 6 years, but I never commented. There are other things to do in this world. I have more free time now, so I can come back to GNU/Linux world. I have pretty good machines working for me, Acer, Lenovo, Sony Vaio and one home made two burner desktop, so no worry about quality of machines. I check the integrity of the downloaded iso file. I burn CD-RWs at 4, and DVD-RWs at 2. It takes time, but I read a book.
Cd-RWs/DVD-Rws are very cheap these days,cheaper than in Canada as my pal tells me.
I like a distro, I check it. I don't distro-hop. I let it work for weeks, if good. I don't go at the developer. If I find something that I might inform the developer, I do it politely. I never criticize the fellow.
The developer loses his sleep and his free time to do something good for others. For example, Jeff Hoogeland of Bodhi is trying hard. JuLinux person is trying hard, though he is not loved by the Open Source community. He is the only one, who says go away from MS windows and come to Linux. He is the only guy, who says drop MS Windows. But, people don't like him...why? Is that because he is a devout Christian? Well, I am not a Christian, but I still like his hard work.
On the other hand, I am tired of Chakra Linux, for they are not sure of themselves and are aggressive in their forum.
Why I like Crunchbang? Because they are simply nice, the Forum members. They love all other distros and never criticize another distro. I got to know it after Statler, and I am glad. Because of Its forum members, we have Archbang and CTKArch. many Crunchbang members use Arch too. You ask the silliest question, they don't grumble, for they know that they were once newbies.
Once, i went through one subject of its Forum for 3 days, and every comment was interesting and lively. Lot of knowledge and work goes in there.
Look in some other distro forums to find an answer to a mundane subject, and you'd find many comments to that question and even to the person, who asked, but not a coherent reply!
I find some comments in this thread as pretty foolish too, as it is just bickering, no real talk, but just bickering!
I got into this comment business few month sago and I have very good discussions with few chaps, who run Linux related websites. And there is no bickering! If you look around, you'd notice my name, and how we discuss.
I won't, or is it my fervent desire, that GNU/Linux be top of the world. Btw, Arch with its core doesn't impress me, for I have gone through that in the '80s. What we need is snappy stuff like Puppy Linux and puplets, DSL, Knoppix, etc. Of course, we have to have such large distros like Ubuntu, though.
I like all, and I like who actually work on them and lose their sleep to make better distros. Crunchbang is much better than Ubuntu, and Macbuntu is much better than Ubuntu and even Mint. macpup, Lighthouse Pup are quite nice distros, sometimes I think do we really need all these LARGE distros at all!
179 • Linux "distros" (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 07:30:09 GMT from Sri Lanka)
when we read the DWW distro list, we may think that one distro is at no.2, while another is at no.98, so maybe the one at no.98 is bad. Even though DWW states that we should not take these "rankings" seriously, most people do.
Take for example, Moblin at no.99, while Meego is at no.36...Zorin is at no. 37, but Macbuntu is nowhere in the scene! Austrumi is at 82, while AntiX is at 92!
Hmmm. Antix comes from Greece, while Austrumi comes Latvia, and how many really uses Austrumi, and can you use it that easily?
The new Sabayon KDE has screen problems, but is at no. 6, while Crunchbang is at 19. Anyway, I don't think Crunchees would care about that much!
And why everyone is so agitated that Mark Shuttleworth is going for Unity? Don't we have to go forward, or do we have to stay with old fashioned Gnome? Just because some wobbly windows that Compiz would give it?
180 • Linux "distros" (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 07:42:42 GMT from Sri Lanka)
And Solaris Operating System, Last Update: Wednesday 14 July 2010 00:46 GMT
is at no.71...and do we need that at all?
181 • correcting a typo mistake in#178 (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 09:31:52 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I want, or is it my fervent desire, that GNU/Linux be top of the world
182 • Avoidance (by Trinity on 2011-02-04 10:24:22 GMT from Canada)
LOL quote::" Oh, come on!
> "I have been reading DWW at least for 6 years, but I never commented. "
Sorry- it is on record, discussions you instigated, kept noting as validation for comments were - (possibly un-intentionally) - stated as FACT
Quote: " ~ Sometimes the truth is hard swallow."..
Intent AS WORDED > The mentioned various GUI utilities /distributions are flawed
Which still does not answer queries Re your burn issues
HINT - don't mount the already formatted disc if you wish to blank it
Quote: "Boy! You guys appear argue with me for nothing"..
Caveat: - what is a discussion vs your definition of "argue"
One view - a logic flow of variables
Deflections - Quote:
"OK, as this Nobody is from Canada, I believe he would love to defend Arch."
~ vs? Puppy this, crunchbang that, ad-infinitum - why ??
Any would be subjective, invoke ad-hominem tendencies
What I often "love" is a coherent string of validated facts Re stated premises
vs Broad open-ended subjective comments such as Quote:
"Crunchbang is much better than Ubuntu, and Macbuntu is much better than Ubuntu ~ and and and ....":
Now if you would like to discuss views of validity Re Puppy (or others)
strengths, failings - first decide just how much do you/ I./ others, know
about their systems of choice
The deeper more technical we get, might be wading in deeper waters ill-equiped to swim
183 • @182 (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 10:38:17 GMT from Sri Lanka)
It so appears that you guys have nothing else to do than catch catchword in anything I write...OK, I'll keep silent for sometime, say till next DWW, eh?
BTW, all tries in Ubuntu, Archbang, Crunchbang, CTKArch, failed to burn an iso file downloaded today, but just now pburn of Zigbert did the job. And this trying was done in 4 machines, out of which 3 are only few months old...
Whatever you guys say, I won't touch Brasero, K3B again...
Take care and have a nice weekend, guys!
See you next Monday, or whenever DWW would come out again...
184 • Re:183, Do have any idea what may be wrong? (by Eddie on 2011-02-04 14:10:43 GMT from United States)
@Chdslv. I'm not saying that you don't have problems so don't get me wrong but I was just wondering if you have figured out why you are having the problems burning an iso with Basero or K3B? It is very curious because I've never had any problems with these applications. I did have a problem with Basero about 2 years ago but it was easy to fix. I'm really not wanting to discuss the particulars of one distro over another or anything of a personal nature. I was just wanting information on the technical issues of your burning problems and what the cause may be.
185 • RE: 184 (by Landor on 2011-02-04 15:49:24 GMT from Canada)
I'm not saying it isn't true, but...
Take a look at the relevant line in #183. He's telling us that he tried to burn an ISO on three machine 4 machines with 4 different operating systems (aside from Puppy). The numbers alone are a coincidence, 4 and 4. Then he has 3 new machines, only a few months old. I'm a technology freak and even I don't have 3 brand new machines that are only a few months old. I actually have one, but not three. The one's not even mine, it's my son's. Funny thing too, it runs Brasero and K3B both perfectly well. We prefer K3B here over anything, it's the best of the best, in the paid or open market, as everyone knows.
He also has an, how shall I put it, energetic disposition for Puppy. That in my opinion denotes a zeal that may not be completely accurate when assessing the comments. :)
Anyway, me, I'm taking most of his comments with a grain of salt.
(Side note here: Patrick, if you read this, I'm actually trying to decide if it's even worth my time to reply to why and my view on it all. No offense, I just don't see it really as a benefit for anything in the long run is why.)
Keep your stick on the ice...
186 • While I'm in a commenting mood... (by Landor on 2011-02-04 16:19:27 GMT from Canada)
Jesse, how about a review on Parabola. I'm not a big fan of Arch, but since Libre Distributions are so rare, how about a quick preview of an up-and-coming one, if it is up-and-coming of course.
I'm going to look around myself in the meantime. I'm curious if they're using any Arch repositories, if so, how they're keeping anything non-free out. As it shows, I'm only just about to look at their stuff now. I'm making this comment with absolutely zero information other than the fact they that have a netinstal image and a core image. I'm downloading the former via a torrent. Sometimes it's better to walk into something like this with your eyes wide shut.
Keep your stick on the ice...
187 • Testing the patience (by Trinity on 2011-02-04 16:52:26 GMT from Canada)
Curiouser & curiouser
Questions of this nature are endemic to computer use
Yes IMO, Chdslv has unresolved problems - don't we all ?
But truthfully, he never did ask for help
I SHOULD have shut up - but kept probing, things didn't sound right
Not to wind him up, my curiousity overcame common sense
After all, things like that plague us all in our everyday lives
IMHO, It is our approach that may need examining
Why - we instinctively avoid pain, physical and mental, it's the self_preservation_thingy kicking in.
When we say we are curious, it may be just to see if the problem
can be related to any of #ours - past, present or anticipated
# Much less pain to learn from others experiences than endure on our own
Some, delight in solving problems (use it or lose it ?)
Where the glitch rears it's ugly head, IM-NSHO, appears to be anyones' lack of appreciation of:
The pre-requisite, (universal) Principles of Trouble-shooting
But take heart, patient readers , practiced correctly, routines CAN become (good) habits
~ Get good at it, delight in new-found abilities
~ NOBODY started out life as a specialist
~ Just managed to somehow "dodge the first bullets" ?
Get back to essential basics
Do not assume any as yet unproven facts
Take each approach in a plodding, methodical LOGICAL manner
Test every theory in all possible ways, to prove or disprove
By-passing any, to save time - almost always results in lost effort
Any problem unsolved seems huge until the cause is understood
Solutions are often very simple
" Problems can rarely be solved by thinking in the same manner they arose
" It is not what is looked at that matters - it is what is seen"
Curiouser && > bloat dominates the comments
Litte mention of chroot or Distro happenings
The usual side banters & Distro pet peeves that are rarely technical in discussions
It has been an entertaining week if nothing else
Thnx Dww & readers for your patience
188 • K3B etc. (by #75/47 on 2011-02-04 17:02:05 GMT from United States)
Actually the only time I've seen K3B and Brasero fail consistently was on A PC-BSD DVD burn, and that was actually a feature. I actually got the RC to boot in live mode w/o a problem despite the bad burn; however, when I correctly burned the final release the screen flickered horribly. So almost all of my distro burns through Linux have gone correctly in one way or another despite the fact that I never use Puppy, and at least if things burn wrong half the time it's just leaving off the bad drivers that I don't want on the end of the image file.
Oh and here's my 'good bloat' 3D desktop nirvana in case you were wondering:
--While viewing pics in full screen I delete one, it become translucent while lifting up off the window @ me, and crinkles into at ball with some of the image still visible. The corner of the image viewer window peels down and the 3D ball flies off to the recycling bin, hits the rim and circles the top of the bin before falling in.-- elapsed time 2-5 seconds depending on settings. I think something like Compiz Fusion or the new Kwin could do it on most modern machines if someone who knows how to program it wanted to give it a try.
189 • @ Landor and others. (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 17:37:21 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Well, I thought of not writing till next Monday, but all appear to be interested in what I write and/or against what I write...I have actually 4 machines, as I wrote earlier. 3 are mine, and one is my wife''s. I was curious about why the CD-RWs are not being seen by Brasero and K3B. I understand that everyon eis saying use Cd-Rs, not CD-RWs, but why not, if they are sold in te market?
Anyway, these CD-RWs are used many times. There are a dozen of them, LG, Imation, TDK, so they are quality products. Some are scratched slightly, but work. They should work, for I have seen a Chinese DVD player in Beijing, which played not only scratched but broken CDs and DVDs few years ago.
Anyway, coming back to the Iso burning affair, pburn did the job. Why should I waste time waiting for the Brasero and K3B to think that they might see the CD-RW/DVD-RW?
Btw, I downloaded Austrumi 2.2.1 and burned it on a worn CD-RW using pburn, and then downloaded Austrumi 2.2.5 from Austrumi 2.2.1 and burned that on to the same CD-RW using Austrumi'š simple burn. No problem whatsoever!
I am writing from Austrumi2.2.5, and I really like this small distro, or may I say fully-fledged distro!
Well, I too am a technology freak, as you are Landor, but I cant believe you do these reviews using your son'š computer!
I shall not write, even if anyone wants to criticize me until the next DWW.
Take care, guys! Good night!
PS: @ 188, There is no "desktop nirvana"...If you need Nirvana, you have to become a Buddhist, and you can attain Nirvana, only after death, so I suppose you wont have with you your desktop there! Good night!
190 • RE: 189 (by Landor on 2011-02-04 18:01:02 GMT from Canada)
You actually said you owned three "new" computers. No matter, means little to me, if anything.
You say you can't believe I use my son's computer? Where did I say that? You understand English well enough to write it, but not in comprehension I see. I did notice that you stated you used your wife's computer for these reviews you're doing! I can't believe it!
You like to assume a lot of things too, as I've noticed. I strictly only use high-quality CD-RW and DVD-RW. I don't like to throw away money, no matter the cost. The savings in disks alone help me buy small parts that I either want for myself, or for systems that I donate to others. So, you'll have to come up with another reason why you can't use Brasero and K3B when they are nothing other than a front-end to the cli tools.
Keep your stick on the ice...
191 • Your post (by Chdslv on 2011-02-04 18:12:10 GMT from Sri Lanka)
"185 • RE: 184 (by Landor on 2011-02-04 15:49:24 GMT from Canada)
I'm not saying it isn't true, but...
Take a look at the relevant line in #183. He's telling us that he tried to burn an ISO on three machine 4 machines with 4 different operating systems (aside from Puppy). The numbers alone are a coincidence, 4 and 4. Then he has 3 new machines, only a few months old. I'm a technology freak and even I don't have 3 brand new machines that are only a few months old. I actually have one, but not three. The one's not even mine, it's my son's."
This is definitely the last post until next DWW...
192 • Time out ? (by Trinity on 2011-02-04 19:09:00 GMT from Canada)
We may be raking a dead-horse -an futile exercise using redundant academia spurs
But, WTH - it's all in good fun. right ?
IIRC _ His original statement was - trying to BLANK "dubious quality" pre-used discs
That changed - he couldn't burn an ISO
NOT the burns were coasters - or what those failures were
OTOH _ to state I -WE had no problems using the same utilities ~ does not validate anything as proof-positive
Version variances, Distro oddities, who knows - until all is thoroughly tested
Hey Landor - nice to hear you again - and M.South -
Could have guessed incessant Puppy references might bring a response
K3b is my favorite too - pity it needs so many KDE-libs
Not having tried all burn tools - I hesitate to say > it is the best
That would require tedious testing to come to ANY useful "ranking" conclusions
So any meaningful insights are low on priorities - OTOH, assessing shell terminals - or F/Mgrs. > they are vital !
A real oddity recently occurred - Mint 9 -Flux & Mint 10-Gnome was
burnt, run in live mode
INITRD shows boot options all should use : Test mem, verify disc, load into RAM
By habit, I md5 all downloads - even though K3b by default does before burning -and best feature - it can verify content AFTER burn
(hey who knows- K3b might fail -then where would I be) Pburn ????
Subsequent Boots (of Mints) then in-frequently failed
Mint's test-disc reports one file error - whatever it is, it is intermittent - once the device kept spinning up, seeking - something
No error Msgs logged - bootup never got far enough to load needed tools
If boot OK - NO errors were logged
I Prev. had a brand new SONY CD do same - horrors - so checked as much
Ran hdparm, mem- test passes, re-burnt ISO on blank discs
Same results - no other ISO has ever acted up (to date)
THESE discs are pristine - one a CD write_once, the other, first on Re-write DVD. then a write-only DVD
DVD seems oK - K3b warns NOT to re-format ~ just burn over
The re-write media is thinner, spacing of data much smaller, so made sense - but not RE the CD -write only
Who cares - I'm satisfied the burner, utilities are copasetic
'Tho I do get a-wee-bit nervous now before a burn session
How do you keep your stick on the ice -
Tough to dog sled in hotter climates
193 • Chdslv (by Anonymous on 2011-02-04 20:09:15 GMT from Portugal)
I've been looking at your comments since maybe two weeks ago. The same about answeres to yours. Not allways exaustivelly, sometimes what's enough to get the overall picture. I've offten thought to be wise the moment you choose when you state the first time that you'll pause up to the next week. When not, after that moment things use to come down to a "circular formula" kind of effect. Remember the say. Loose one battle doesn't mean loosing the war (in case that's why you end not doing it).
194 • RE: Everything (by Landor on 2011-02-04 20:13:32 GMT from Canada)
The best definition I've read thus far was where the commenter wrote that everyone knows what bloat feels like. I am a die-hard Firefox user, though I've been migrating to IceCat. Want to understand bloat? Boot up Firefox and watch how it loads, it's that simple. there's your definition. Enough said.
Again, I ask you, where did I say I use my son's computer to review things? For one, my son is now an adult (though I use that term loosely), and since I raise my son, I don't even need ask to use his brand new laptop for anything. To be quite frank though, I have not used it for anything at all. I simply stated (comprehension works here) that the only new system "available" to me is not even mine, it's my son's. I think that's quite obvious.
You've go on and on about Puppy and ask why Puppy can do this or that and others can't. I beg this question of you, why haven't you attempted to learn for yourself. Since you haven't though, I'll give you one instance on the greatness of Puppy in comparison to other distributions and why its packages/overall size are/is smarller. Type this at the command line of any of your installed distributions that you listed you tried to burn a CD on with Brasero and K3B, Ubuntu, Archbang, Crunchbang, CTKarch. Here's the command: free -m .
Now, do the same thing in Puppy, the exact same command of: free -m , and let us know what you get. Maybe you'll learn something instead of asking us why it can do this and can't do that when you are the one running it and not us., you follow?
That's what I said last week, good to see both of you. :) I spotted your return instantly. :) I like Mark as well, a very well spoken and intelligent man, it's a shame he doesn't contribute to at least the comments section here.
I've had the odd issue with an ISO as well. Very rare though. I actually just had one somewhat recently (Fedora 14 development release, if you can call that recent, the days turn into weeks, into months so quickly don't they?). To have an issue with every single CD or DVD I tried, that were different brands, across 4 machines, using 2 different applications has to what, worse odds than winning the lottery or getting struck by lighting? I know a person working on their degree in math. I should ask them if they could come up with the 1 in X chances for me..lol Chdslv will have to come up with a bit more information on how many CDs and DVDs he tried, how many brands, the actual amount of computers and if they all have different drives before my friend could give us an accurate number. I still betting its easier to win the lottery or get hit by lightning though.
What are you thoughts on the ruling of the CRTC for Ontario? If it comes into play it's definitely going to hurt how much I test and use multiple distributions. The 25 GB cap is ludicrous given the fact that I have a 60 GB cap right now, like the rest of Canada. The funny thing is, everyone else will still have the 60 GB cap as is my understanding. Only Ontario will get the cap dropped to 25 GB, due to our size of course. A major cash grab. I honestly wonder how other people with restrictions worse than that deal with using and testing various distributions.
With the weather we've had down here the last couple weeks It's only on ice..lol Today's a lot warmer though.
Keep your stick on the ice...
195 • nirvana (by #47/75/188 on 2011-02-04 20:32:18 GMT from United States)
Did you see #102, I mean if you want to argue about it why not start at the beginning? I also don't see a holy war brewing over my album containing said word on cover and a baby swiming after a dollar.
As for desktop enjoyment, I also wonder it there could be a way to something like firefox persons work on different programs in KDE. The code for the browser was GPL right? I wonder if it could be recycled into a DE without reinventing the wheel so to speak. I'm sure it would be considered feature bloat by some as it was with firefox, but there seem to be a lot of people using it on firefox so i don't think it hurt Mozilla any.
196 • Never say never ? (by Trinity on 2011-02-04 21:23:55 GMT from Canada)
"This is definitely the last post until next DWW..."
It remains to be seen whether that statement holds true -or if he cares to clear up our confusion::
For the more technically addicted reader - several items are of relevance:
> " I was curious about why the CD-RWs are not being seen by_ "
> " a Chinese DVD player in Beijing, which played not only scratched but broken CDs and DVDs few years ago. "
As per (expected?) postings on matters, - vital info was left out
~ Recall the query if burn devices were detected by utility ?
~ Whether they had automatically been mounted by O/sys
~ If they were pre-used (formatted )
~ What was previous content
To my understanding, Re-Write discs use different TOC (table of content) for lead-in tracks:
> Dependent on whether content has been "fixated" or in re-write mode
There is a difference to "fast blank" vs re-formatting
TOC is Re-burnt
But remember- optical discs "burn" thin media layers, not reset MEM flags
as per hard drive content
What was contents of disc on that "player" in Beijing
Audio streams do not use file systems - so yes, IF audio was the content, the player "might" work
Which also left out - was it a "player" or did it have burn, play capability
And if so good - why no brand mention
The advantage to CD audio discs was - any missing data can be "simulated"
The listener will never realize there is missing streamed data
So a lack of info for us - coupled w/a possible technical understandings on his part - can lead to incorrect assumptions
197 • Bodhi Linux (by sean hunt on 2011-02-04 21:40:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
I accidentally bumped into Bodhi Linux an Enlightenment distro, probably by googling a few months ago, and I was watching Distrowatch daily to see what new developments there were. I have been interested in Enlightenemt for years and was frustrated by the available Enlightenment distros because they cost something or they were inactive. I am REALLY glad I found Bodhi because it is exactly what I want and need. I am sure that many people are wishing for Bodhi and it is a big shame that it is not popping up in Distrowatch. I think it is definitely big news in the Linux world and should be shared. The releases are extremely stable and the Forum is extremely helpful, though it is slowly growing. It would be very helpful if Distrowatch could pass the news on about this wonderful distro!
198 • Bodhi Linux (by RobertD on 2011-02-04 21:49:55 GMT from United States)
see DWW waiting list or meander on over via this link
199 • GnomeBaker (by Tom on 2011-02-04 22:01:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :) I have always had quite a lot of success with GnomeBaker although generally Brasero is good enough for me. Perhaps my requirementas are different from most people that have commented so far.
Regards from Tom :)
200 • Pick a number (by They still call me nobody on 2011-02-04 22:41:55 GMT from Canada)
Hey Landor - Thnx - I figured you would recognize me
(I've mellowed - but not so it's noticeable )
Last night's news - (Conservatives need votes) it's all about "staying in power"
I must have missed salient parts - last I knew:
"We will overrule any CTRC decision to increase fees"
NO comment on why Canada now pays more than ...... for less B/width
CRTC mandate - is not to ensure rights of users - they rubber stamp for the business sector
Cash grab - never realised until lately we pay 10% re-cycling fees on computer items
Goes to Gov't coffers, municipalities have to pay for recycle costs
The things they sneak pass in guise of of environment or security
Don't get me started on "mandatory" phasing out of incandescents
~ Mercury - OMDG - What are they thinking of - that is scary as life expectancy of nuclear waste dumps
China takes (deserved) heat over leaded paints for toys, meanwhile, @ home, everyhour TONS in weight, toxins are "filtered?" released into air or diluted into water
Gloat - On "wet coast" winter is in last throes
Already thinking about the early March-brown hatch on the Cowichan .R
I love coastal rivers - no computers no PEOPLE -just the fascination of hidden life cycles
"How to have fun standing in water waving a stick"
201 • re #197 current Enlightenment offerings (by gnomic on 2011-02-04 22:48:45 GMT from New Zealand)
There are a couple of recent and active distro releases using the Enlightenment desktop. PCLinuxOS has a light and a full CD Enlightenment offering last refreshed in December 2010. These provide a wider software range than Bodhi. There is also Macpup, a Puppy version which has a release from the last quarter of 2010 if I recall correctly.
I have had a look at Bodhi, but I'm not sure stable is the word I'd use. Firefox is in a beta version for example. I also found that when I closed my ThinkPad lid, Bodhi suspended but on opening the lid, Enlightenment crashed and then everything went black. Not saying Bodhi is rubbish, but I feel sure the devs would agree it is a work in progress at this stage.
By the way, I think someone (was it Landor?) commented recently on Bodhi that it didn't seem to be quite finished as the user had to do some configuration during startup. I think this may be an exercise in user choice, the desktop the way you want it, I have seen this approach used in SOAD which is an Enlightenment on SUSE project. Haven't checked on the current status of that one lately.
202 • @194 distro-hopping and bandwidth (by subg on 2011-02-05 01:11:59 GMT from Canada)
Landor - what model would you suggest the CRTC use that doesn't involve cross-subsidies from less intensive users?
Besides, I doubt that distro-hopping seriously affects caps as much as movies and youtube for a typical user.
User pay seems logical...same as if you water your lawn and I don't.
Now, greater competition would certainly help....
203 • @198 • Bodhi Linux (by Anonymous on 2011-02-05 01:19:48 GMT from United States)
Some distros stay in the waiting for years. Some stay one or two weeks before going into the data base.
If sean hunt question @ 197 is about the DW data base, that's really up to Landislav to decide.
204 • Stresslinux (by Anonymous on 2011-02-05 02:28:22 GMT from Germany)
Has anybody had success in downloading the latest version of stresslinux 32-bit (http://www.stresslinux.org/sl/downloads/34) or 64-bit (http://www.stresslinux.org/sl/downloads/37) yet? No matter what browser I use (Firefox, Opera) or if I use any download manager at all, I can only download a view kb before the connection speed goes down to zero. The stresslinux server doesn't support resuming, so pausing and resuming the download in the download manager doesn't help, either.
205 • RE: 194 (by Landor on 2011-02-05 02:46:00 GMT from Canada)
This is no different that net neutrality, in a sense anyway..lol
I can tell you as a fact that testing and using distributions definitely has a major impact on my bandwidth. I usually sit around 35 GB a month. Some months I spike very close to the 60 GB cap. Nor do I hang out at YouTube or view/watch any television shows or movies on-line, at all. Also, you have no idea the amount of distributions that I am currently testing. Factor almost every major distribution's stable and development versions being used and updated daily. Then add in testing other various distributions and you might have an idea. Especially when some of those distributions are released in DVD only. Starting to get the picture?
Now, you spoke of watering lawn as an example. So let me understand this. If you gave cable say, and you're already paying (we'll round this off) $50 dollars a month and have a 60 GB cap, then as of March 1st you are still paying 50 dollars a month and have a $25 GB cap (while the rest of the country has a 60 GB cap) how is that the same as me paying more to water my lawn than you? You're now paying more for less, and for what?
With communication growing. With video presentation and such expanding, the CRTC (or any other country that goes backward) reduces the allowed numbers instead of expanding it to encourage growth? You don't see that? You talked about greater competition, you obviously don't see how much of a threat companies like Netflix and any other company providing real, competitive alternatives to how we receive broadcasts right now are real threats to Bell, Rogers, Shaw, Cogeco, etc, etc. In Ontario where the numbers of people going over to such on-line services are rapidly growing, the big boys are doing everything they can to shut them down. This bandwidth cap will effectively do that.
If you really believe in competition, growth, you'd be against the CRTC's recent mandate as much as anyone else is.
Keep your stick on the ice...
206 • @204 (by subg on 2011-02-05 02:51:39 GMT from Canada)
Downloads fine with wget - 175K/s
207 • @205 (by subg on 2011-02-05 03:13:41 GMT from Canada)
That's serious distro collecting....? Sounds like you have quite a library. How far back does it go?
Where in the CRTC proposal does it say that consumption charges are in addition to the flat rate you pay now?
Keep in mind that Netflix isn't an ISP - and the big ISPs own and maintain the transmission equipment and are geographically constrained. They also pay huge mandated subsidies towards money-losing rural broadband services.
Still not sure how this differs from electricity, water or long distance charges - a utility is a utility. Basic economics.
Number of Comments: 207
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|• Issue 796 (2019-01-07): FreeBSD 12.0, Peppermint releases ISO update, picking the best distro of 2018, roundtable interview with Debian, Fedora and elementary developers|
|• Issue 795 (2018-12-24): Running a Pinebook, interview with Bedrock founder, Alpine being ported to RISC-V, Librem 5 dev-kits shipped|
|• Issue 794 (2018-12-17): Void 20181111, avoiding software bloat, improvements to HAMMER2, getting application overview in GNOME Shell|
|• Issue 793 (2018-12-10): openSUSE Tumbleweed, finding non-free packages, Debian migrates to usrmerge, Hyperbola gets FSF approval|
|• Issue 792 (2018-1203): GhostBSD 18.10, when to use swap space, DragonFly BSD's wireless support, Fedora planning to pause development schedule|
|• Issue 791 (2018-11-26): Haiku R1 Beta1, default passwords on live media, Slax and Kodachi update their media, dual booting DragonFly BSD on EFI|
|• Issue 790 (2018-11-19): NetBSD 8.0, Bash tips and short-cuts, Fedora's networking benchmarked with FreeBSD, Ubuntu 18.04 to get ten years of support|
|• Issue 789 (2018-11-12): Fedora 29 Workstation and Silverblue, Haiku recovering from server outage, Fedora turns 15, Debian publishes updated media|
|• Issue 788 (2018-11-05): Clu Linux Live 6.0, examining RAM consumpion, finding support for older CPUs, more Steam support for running Windows games on Linux, update from Solus team|
|• Issue 787 (2018-10-29): Lubuntu 18.10, limiting application access to specific users, Haiku hardware compatibility list, IBM purchasing Red Hat|
|• Issue 786 (2018-10-22): elementary OS 5.0, why init keeps running, DragonFly BSD enables virtual machine memory resizing, KDE neon plans to drop older base|
|• Issue 785 (2018-10-15): Reborn OS 2018.09, Nitrux 1.0.15, swapping hard drives between computers, feren OS tries KDE spin, power savings coming to Linux|
|• Issue 784 (2018-10-08): Hamara 2.1, improving manual pages, UBports gets VoIP app, Fedora testing power saving feature|
|• Issue 783 (2018-10-01): Quirky 8.6, setting up dual booting with Ubuntu and FreeBSD, Lubuntu switching to LXQt, Mint works on performance improvements|
|• Issue 782 (2018-09-24): Bodhi Linux 5.0.0, Elive 3.0.0, Solus publishes ISO refresh, UBports invites feedback, Linux Torvalds plans temporary vacation|
|• Issue 781 (2018-09-17): Linux Mint 3 "Debian Edition", file systems for SSDs, MX makes installing Flatpaks easier, Arch team answers questions, Mageia reaches EOL|
|• Issue 780 (2018-09-10): Netrunner 2018.08 Rolling, Fedora improves language support, how to customize Kali Linux, finding the right video drivers|
|• Full list of all issues|
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The TrianceOS operating system was a full-featured, open source, UNIX-like operating system descended from FreeBSD 5. Currently, TrianceOS runs on Intel i386 architectures. TrianceOS was a highly integrated system. In addition to its highly portable, high performance kernel and derivation from FreeBSD, TrianceOS features a complete set of user utilities, compilers for several languages, the X Window System, kernel firewall software and numerous other tools built especially on top of GUI (Graphical User Interface), all accompanied by full source code. The TrianceOS Packages Collection contains over 175 pre-compiled open source software binary packages and thousands of softwares available around the world.