 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 389, 24 January 2011 |
Welcome to this year's fourth issue of DistroWatch Weekly! This week's feature story is a first-impression review of three lesser-known distributions - the independent and minimalist Dragora GNU/Linux, the Kubuntu-based Asturix, and the Fedora-based Fuduntu, which is a very recent arrival at the distro scene. Are any of these worth devoting some hard disk space? Read the short reviews to find out. In the news section, Debian sets a release target for its forthcoming stable release, Mark Shuttleworth suggests adding the Qt toolkit to Ubuntu's default installation, Linux User & Developer gives high marks to the Jolibook netbook and the Jolicloud operating system, and GhostBSD developers announce plans for version 2.0 and beyond. Also in this issue, some clarification about Debian's position on the issue of non-free firmware and a reminder about the upcoming world IPv6 day. Happy reading!
Content:
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
Quick looks at Dragora GNU/Linux, Asturix and Fuduntu
Dragora GNU/Linux 2.0
 The Dragora project produces a Linux distribution which, according to its website, is simple, stable and completely libre. The libre part is supported by Dragora's appearance on the FSF's list of free GNU/Linux distros. The project's website is written primarily in Spanish but features translations to other languages, including English. Information on the site is sparse, but we're given downloadable ISOs, documentation on performing an install and given some information on where to find further help. The provided download image is a light 445MB in size.
Placing my new Dragora CD in the drive and booting brought me to a text boot menu. Pressing Enter launches a quick boot process and we are dumped at a command prompt as the root user. We're shown a brief help message which tells us which disk partitioning tools are available and to run the "setup" command to perform an install. I used the provided cfdisk program to create swap and root partitions and launched setup.
The Dragora installer is a series of text-based menus. Each menu screen generally asks the user to pick one of two options, making the process fairly simple, but long. We're first asked if we want to use a swap file or a swap partition, we're asked which partition to mount as the root directory (/) and we're given the option to select our preferred file system. Next up we point the installer to the Dragora source packages. Once the system finds the source packages we're asked which of the software collections we want to install. The names of the software bundles are b, d, k, l, n and t. I checked the project's installation guide and it makes no mention of what each letter represents. (I'm assuming "b" is for base, "k" is for kernel, and "d" is for development, but we're not given any clues.) We're told that, when in doubt, to install everything, so I did. Later we're given the option to install either GRUB or LILO for our boot loader, we also get to choose the location of the installed boot loader. We're asked if we want to change the login name for the root user and then we set a root password. From there the installer asks us what type of mouse we're using and which background services we want to run. The last few screens request our preferred language and time zone.
Installing is a fairly lengthy process and when it's completed we reboot and get dropped at a text-based login prompt. A helpful tip suggests that once we login we should create a non-root account. I created a regular user account and decided to move to a graphical interface. However, running "startx" as suggested in the project's documentation doesn't work and the system claims no such command exists. Further, trying to configure the system to boot into a graphical login screen (as laid out on the project's website) also fails. I ran through the install again, careful to select all available software packages and, again, found starting an X session wasn't an available option.
The project's documentation doesn't make any mention of a package manager and, so far as I could tell while poking around the OS, it doesn't have one. So what does come with the system? The GNU Compiler Collection is available, as are various other development & scripting tools such as git, Perl and awk. There is the regular suite of GNU tools, but otherwise the system is largely empty and the installed files take less than 1 GB of hard drive space. During my experiment Dragora didn't automatically detect my network card, so getting on-line proved difficult.
When I began this review the latest released mentioned on the Dragora website was 2.0 and that's the release I used. At the end of the week, as I was wrapping up this review, I noticed the download page on the Dragora site had changed and they listed 2.1 as the latest version. At that time I checked the project's download mirrors with the plan of updating my evaluation. However, at the time of writing the mirrors are offering ISO images for Dragora-1.0 and both versions 2.0 & 2.1 are missing.
I was a bit disappointed I couldn't find anything interesting about Dragora and no reason to recommend its use. I don't mind using an extremely light system if it comes with good documentation (such as the OpenBSD project provides), but Dragora doesn't really give us anything with which to work. Given that this experience made for a short evaluation, I turned to some projects I'd looked at previously to see what they've been up to in recent months.
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Asturix 3
 In the first half of 2010 I sat down with Asturix 2, an Ubuntu-based distribution which focused on Spanish localization and being compatible with Windows software and networks. At the time it ran fairly well, though I had trouble with some of the Asturix-specific software, leaving me with the impression that the distro was basically Ubuntu, in Spanish. Fine for people who primarily read/write Spanish, but not particularly appealing to anyone outside that demographic.
A representative from the Asturix project contacted me at the beginning of 2011 and announced the availability of Asturix 3. With promises of fixed bugs and a fresh start urging me on, I downloaded the project's latest offering. I will say this for them: the distro has changed a lot, giving the project a whole new feel. The DVD, which is 970 MB in size, boots into a welcome screen which asks if we'd like to try the software (run from the DVD) or install to the local hard drive. We're also invited to select our preferred language. Taking the live DVD option presents us with a KDE 4.5 environment (Asturix 2 used GNOME) with an attractive green & white wallpaper. The desktop seemed to be in good working order and I launched the system installer.
Asturix is still based on the Ubuntu family (one assumes Kubuntu, judging from the desktop environment) and the installer will be familiar to people who have installed Ubuntu 10.10. We run through the usual process of selecting a language, partitioning the hard drive, creating a user account, setting a time zone and picking a keyboard layout. The process was fairly painless until, near the end, the installer tried to download packages from a slow server. Faced with waiting seventeen hours for the download to complete, I hit the skip button, which didn't accomplish anything. Aborting and running through the installer again landed me a faster connection resulting in a three minute download and a freshly installed OS.
My first impression of Asturix 3 is that it's Kubuntu with its toe dipped into the concept of cloud computing. Most of the items featured in the application menu are local programs, but there's a scattering of cloud items, most of them associated with Google services. Following the Google trend, the system's web browser is Chromium 7. Also in the application menu are OpenOffice.org, the GIMP, a document viewer, Amarok, K3b and VLC. We additionally find Kopete, KTorrent, and KOrganizer. Stirred into the mix are little apps, including a text editor and archive manager. In the background the system features Java and, depending on the settings selected during install, we may also find multimedia codecs and Flash.
While the application menu doesn't feature Firefox, it does include a Firefox installer. Unfortunately the installer didn't work on my machine. Any attempt to install Firefox via the menu short-cut would result in my download reaching 99% and freezing. I ran into a similar issue when using the LinuxConsole distribution and I hope it's not the beginning of a trend. We have package managers and repositories for a reason -- organized, functional software management -- and having a menu littered with malfunctioning launchers for software already included in the repositories does not add value to a distribution.
Speaking of software management, missing from the application menu are the popular package managers (Software Center & Synaptic) usually found in Ubuntu-based distros. Users wishing to use a graphical package manager will find KPackageKit, which is accessible via the menu or as a module of the KDE System Settings suite. The first time I tried to install a package I was told an error had occurred and the process couldn't be completed. A second attempt caused the package manager to crash. The third time I managed to get a package to download and install. I had no problems grabbing updates or removing unwanted software. Looking behind the scenes shows Asturix uses Ubuntu's repositories and some PPAs and that packages can also be managed with the APT collection of command line tools.
Asturix 3 - updating software
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Beyond flirting with cloud-based computing and making package management unnecessarily difficult, Asturix has a few features which stand out. If you have a webcam, Asturix supports facial recognition. The idea being you can take photos of yourself and then the authentication system will compare the person sitting in front of the computer with your photo. If the photo matches the face in front of the webcam, it'll log you in. I haven't tried this yet, but it strikes me as an interesting idea. It would certainly be convenient, and I'm curious as to how well the authentication software handles photographs held up in front of the lens and beards. If you, dear readers, have tried this form of authentication, I'd like to hear about your experiences.
My test machines have low-end video cards and so it was interesting to find Asturix turns on desktop effects out of the box. Even in a virtual environment the effects are all enabled. Some of the effects are quite nice, growing menus and minimizing/maximizing windows were attractive. Depending on your taste, the blue ghostly glow around active windows may be an appealing trick or a distraction. Unfortunately these effects made my desktop quite sluggish and I disabled them. With the effects turned off KDE was responsive and I found my normal day-to-day tasks easy to perform.
It may sound like I'm picking on Asturix and that's not my intention. I have to give them credit for taking something which had problems (some flaky apps and limited language support) and throwing it out to start fresh. It's the sort of move which takes courage & commitment. However, in starting fresh they've introduced a new collection of problems (bad package management and a heavy desktop). The old problems have been solved, but at the expense of a new set. The good news, for the Asturix developers, is these problems are fairly easy to fix if they add Synaptic and Software Center to their app menu and disable desktop effects they'll have a solid platform.
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Fuduntu 14.8
 Fuduntu is a small project I reviewed in the last quarter of 2010 and, at the time, I planned to write a quick review of the distro (which I regarded as being a re-spin of Fedora 14 with some codecs and buggy performance improvements) and not think of it again. However, the project's developer, who goes by the nickname Fewt, had an unexpected reaction to my criticism of his pet project: he welcomed it. In fact, post-review, Fewt set up an on-line poll and invited Fuduntu users and DistroWatch readers to tell him what worked, what didn't and what they would see as improvements. Since then, a handful of minor updates have been released and I took the latest one for a test drive.
The current installation ISO is about 1 GB in size and doubles as a live disc. Where Asturix tossed the baby out with the bath water, giving the project a whole new approach, Fuduntu has taken small steps, tweaking little things and swapping out a few packages. I won't go into the details of the installation process as it's much the same as it was previously.
Once the install and first-run wizard tasks are completed, we are re-introduced to Fuduntu's GNOME desktop. Some minor changes are immediately apparent. Though the wallpaper and theme are the same, I found the desktop was quicker to load this time around. The desktop feels a bit more responsive, perhaps due to fixes applied to the cgroup implementation. I also note the change log mentions the BFS kernel scheduler has been removed. Another minor change is the collection of nicer-looking fonts, which I appreciated after several hours of screen reading. The menu button has been removed from the title bar of application windows, making them appear thinner than before. Netbook users will probably appreciate the thinner bars. A few apps have been replaced, for example VLC is now included at the expense of Totem. The Likewise Open program has been added, allowing administrators to easily join Active Directory networks. Fuduntu features a good collection of pre-installed software including most of OpenOffice.org, the GIMP, Empathy, Thunderbird, a CD burner and the GNOME configuration tools. The distro additionally has Fedora's administration tools for setting up a firewall, managing services and creating user accounts.
Fuduntu 14.8 - applications
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I did encounter a few minor problems, or at least things I would like to see done differently. The most obvious issue being the GUI front-ends for package management. This isn't really Fuduntu's fault, the project uses the same package manager as its base, Fedora. The current GUI package manager Fedora offers is slow, painfully so at times. The update tool works, but doesn't really give us a good idea of what's going on, so during updates we just get a slow-moving progress bar with no sense of how long the process will take or which files are currently being downloaded. The only other quirk I ran into, which isn't a bug so much as, I suspect, an oversight is that the project's website advertises that Adobe Flash comes pre-installed on the system. On my install this was not the case, there was no Flash plugin in Firefox, the distro's pre-installed web browser. Flash and Gnash were both available in the project's repository though, making it a simple install.
Fuduntu has made a handful of small changes since I last ran the distro and I think they've been for the better. Nothing big has been overturned, but each of the little things has, in my opinion, improved the over-all experience. Fewt has taken the bleeding-edge, development platform of Fedora and made a pretty good home OS out of it. It still feels like "Fedora: Desktop re-spin", but in a good way. If the developer takes the extra step of replacing Fedora's crippled package and update tools with something more user-friendly, I'll actively recommend Fuduntu for home users.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Ladislav Bodnar) |
Debian sets release target, Ubuntu warms to Qt toolkit, Jolibook review, GhostBSD update
 Good news for those readers who wait impatiently for the new stable release of Debian GNU/Linux - we now have a target date for a release, set for the 6th of February. This was announced by Neil McGovern from the Debian release team: "Now that a release candidate of the installer has been uploaded and tested, a few issues have been identified today. This should turn into RC2 by the end of the week. This means we are able to begin the final preparations for a release of Debian 6.0 'Squeeze'. Following on from above, we now have a target date of the weekend of 5th and 6th February for the release. We have checked with core teams, and this seems to be acceptable for everyone. The intention is only to lift that date if something really critical pops up that is not possible to handle as errata, or if we end up technically unable to release that weekend. Every other fix that doesn't make it in time will be r1 material." As promised in the above update, the second release candidate of the Debian Installer was also released last week.
One of the hot topics accompanying the new release of Debian GNU/Linux is the issue of non-free firmware. As this is an issue that, judging by various blog and forum posts around the web, is far from clear, Debian developer Alexander Reichle-Schmehl has written an excellent summary of the situation entitled "Myths and facts about firmware and their non-removal from Debian: "Debian's announcement to release 'Squeeze' with a completely free Linux kernel caused quite some attention, which is actually a good thing. However, it also seems to have caused quite some uncertainty and was often partially misunderstood and miss-quoted. I'll try to summarize and answer some of the questions in this blog post. Myth: 'Debian removed all firmware files from its kernels.' Fact: No, it's just about the kernels which will be shipped with the upcoming release of Debian 6.0. The kernels in the current stable release, Debian 5.0, remain as they are... Well, of course we will release security updates for them, but they will still contain the same firmware files as the present kernels. Myth: Debian is ripping stuff out of its kernels. Fact: Debian moved some firmware files from its main archive to the non-free part of the archive. They are still there, just in the part of archive for stuff not satisfying our Free Software Guidelines."
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 The majority of desktop Linux users who prefer one of the more full-featured desktop environments probably run either GNOME (using the GTK+ libraries) or KDE (built with the Qt toolkit). The proponents of these two development tools have not always seen eye to eye, but many end users, including Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth, now recognise that there is no perfect tool for developing Linux applications. As a result, future versions of Ubuntu could include the Qt toolkit as part of the default install: "Canonical's Mark Shuttleworth has announced that plans for future versions of Ubuntu, beyond 11.04 'Natty Narwhal', will now incorporate the inclusion of the Qt user interface libraries and may include applications based on Qt. 'We'll need to find some space on the CD for Qt libraries,' he said, noting that Qt will sit alongside GNOME's GTK+ libraries. The addition of Qt support will allow developers a choice of toolkit when developing their applications for the Ubuntu desktop as 'there's plenty of best-in-class software written with Qt'." The original blog post by Mark Shuttleworth is available here, while Jono Bacon, the Ubuntu community manager, has also commented on the subject.
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  Still looking for that perfect netbook? You could do worse than getting the colourful Jolibook, pre-installed with the Ubuntu-based Jolicloud, a distribution featuring an extensive integration of online services. Linux User & Developer has taken a quick look at the recent arrival on the netbook market and gave the Jolibook a perfect five out of five: "It's remarkable to consider that Jolicloud started life as a small project dedicated to producing an easy-to-use operating system to be adopted by schools and a means of recycling old and otherwise defunct hardware. ... What started out as an act of tech philanthropy has metamorphosed into the height of open source chic. That said, the Jolibook is not without its faults, nor is it the cheapest netbook in its class. Still, it's by far the best Linux netbook you'll find on the market today, and one that doesn't compromise Linux's advanced capabilities for the sake of appealing to the masses."
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 GhostBSD is a project developing an easy-to-use, FreeBSD-based live CD featuring the GNOME desktop. FreeBSD News has contacted the project's developers and asked them about their plans for 2011: "GhostBSD will have a new version (2.0) in Q1 of 2011. We are working hard to have the GUI installer finished (the graphical installer) and, if possible, make an application installer (a repository for easy installation and removal of programs) like other operating systems have (but with that we have a little problem, because we want not to compromise the security of the system, so we need to continue working hard in this part). We would like to publish the repository, but we don't want to publish anything incomplete or buggy. For this, maybe (the repository of applications) can come in the next version (after 2.0). Also, we'll start building the first alpha of GhostBSD for servers. At first we thought about starting this at the end of this year, but a few more developers have joined us and we can start this edition earlier, ahead of schedule."
GhostBSD 2.0 beta - a FreeBSD-based live CD with GNOME
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| Advocacy (by Jesse Smith) |
The World IPv6 Day
In place of a Q&A this week, I'd like to talk about an upcoming event. June 8, 2011 has been declared World IPv6 Day. The event, being led by Google, will see a handful of the Internet's large websites enable Internet Protocol version 6. In theory most users won't notice the difference and we'll all be able to access Google, Facebook, Yahoo and others on June 8th, just like we would every other day.
But where theory meets practice there are often sparks, so it's a good idea to see if your system is ready now. To help with that, there's this test site. The site will test your system to see if you can reach IPv4 websites and IPv6 sites. It will also test to see if, assuming you can't reach an IPv6 website, your web browser will properly fall-back to trying IPv4 in a reasonable amount of time. This last point is key because the proposed World IPv6 Day is less about moving everyone from the old protocol to the new one than it is about making sure websites will continue to function, regardless of which protocol is in use. In the past we've seen some websites, such as Google, provide separate IPv4 and IPv6 URLs in an effort to cater to both groups of users. Ideally websites should be able to offer one URL, regardless of client protocols. And, ideally, users should be able to connect to their favourite websites, regardless of which protocol they're using.
For people who are currently on IPv4 (and that's most of us), it is possible to set up a tunnel which allows access to IPv6 websites. Ubuntu's website has a good article on creating an IPv6 tunnel when your computer is stuck with an IPv4 address. I recommend reading the article, which is fairly distro-neutral, because it's good to experiment with IPv6 now to avoid a rushed implementation later.
For more information on IPv6 Day, please see this FAQ page.
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| Released Last Week |
Clonezilla Live 1.2.6-59
Steven Shiau has announced the release of Clonezilla Live 1.2.6-59, a new stable version of the specialist live CD containing an open-source disk cloning utility: "This release of Clonezilla live includes major enhancements, changes and bug fixes. Major enhancements and changes: the underlying GNU/Linux operating system was upgraded, this release is based on the Debian 'Sid' repository (as of 2011-01-13); Linux kernel was updated to 2.6.32-30; live-boot was updated to 2.0.14-1 and live-config was updated to 2.0.14-1; language files were updated; option '-q1' (force to use dd) was added as an option in expert mode for device to device clone, this could be useful if you want to clone an encrypted partition; another example custom-ocs-2 was added, it can be used to save and restore dual-boot systems...." Read the rest of the release announcement for a full list of changes and bug fixes.
Saline OS 1.0
Anthony Nordquist has announced the release of Saline OS 1.0, a lightweight, Debian-based distribution and live DVD featuring the Xfce desktop: "I am proud to announce the immediate availability of the first Saline OS stable release, a fast and full-featured operating system using Xfce as the graphical desktop environment. Debian 'Squeeze' is now in deep freeze, making it stable enough for everyday use on desktop, laptop and netbook computers. Saline OS 1.0 will follow Debian's stable branch and receive automatic updates from the official Debian backports repositories until the subsequent releases of Saline OS 2.0 and Debian 7.0 'Wheezy'. I would like to take this time to thank Debian for being the best base anyone could ever ask for." Read the brief release announcement and visit the distribution's about page to learn more about Saline OS.
Pardus Linux 2011
Gökçen Eraslan has announced the release of Pardus Linux 2011: "Pardus Linux 2011 is now available. Major features in this release are: the latest Linux kernel 2.6.37 provides an up-to-date hardware support; the bootsplash technology used in Pardus 2009.2 is replaced by the new Plymouth engine; YALI, the installer of Pardus, gained LVM/RAID and UUID support; Pardus 2011 comes with the latest KDE 4.5.5; Kaptan, the desktop customization tool, now optionally captures your picture and sets it as your avatar in KDE; GNOME NetworkManager 0.8.2 is now the default networking back-end; all GTK+ applications are rendered with Oxygen style; LibreOffice is the default office suite; Mozilla Firefox 4.0 beta 9 is the default web browser." For further details please read the release announcement.
Pardus Linux 2011 - the new version comes with LibreOffice, Firefox 4 and many small improvements
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Calculate Linux 11.0
Alexander Tratsevskiy has announced the release of Calculate Linux 11.0, a Gentoo-based distribution for desktops and servers: "A new version of the Calculate Linux distribution has been released. Major changes: added binary repositories for Calculate Linux Desktop (CLD, CLDG and CLDX) and Calculate Directory Server (CDS) with rolling-release support; new minimalistic distro Calculate Scratch Server (CSS) is now available; more user-friendly interface; support for the combined storage of user profiles for different editions of Calculate Linux Desktop; better support for netbooks; added support for Canon printers; updated Portage to version 2.2...." Here is the full release announcement
Oracle Enterprise Linux 5 Update 6
Oracle has announced the release of Oracle Enterprise Linux 5 Update 6, an enterprise class distribution with a subscription service based on the recently released Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5.6: "Oracle is pleased to announce the general availability of Oracle Linux Release 5 Update 6 for x86 (32-bit) and x86_64 (64 -bit) architectures. Bug fixes added by Oracle: fix filp_close() race; fix missing aio_complete() in end_io; check to see if hypervisor supports memory reservation change; enable entropy for bnx2, bnx2x, e1000e, igb, ixgb, ixgbe, ixgbevf; add Xen PV netconsole support; shrink_zone patch; fix aacraid not to reset during kexec; patch rds to 1.4.2-20; fix BUG_ONs to not fire when in a tasklet; fix lockup of the tx queue; properly unmap when getting a remote access error; fix locking in rds_send_drop_to(); fix qla not to query hccr...." See the release announcement and release notes for a complete list of bug fixes and other improvements.
Greenie Linux 8.1M
Stanislav Hoferek has announced the release of Greenie Linux 8.1M, an easy-to-use Ubuntu-based distribution pre-configured for use by Slovak and Czech speakers: "Another version of Greenie Linux, an operating system prepared especially for Ubuntu lovers in Slovakia and the Czech Republic, is here. Among the new features, a few applications were added to the Linux distribution (e.g. programs for manipulating PDF files, to see the temperature in console, and to download entire websites) and some useful programs for those who dual boot with Windows (e.g. software for CD/DVD burning and for reading ext4 partitions) were added to the DVD image. A few problems have been fixed, new wallpapers and documentation (especially about digital photography) added. The system is actualised with the newest software in the Ubuntu 'Maverick' branch." Read the rest of the release announcement (mostly in Slovak, with a brief English summary at the bottom of the page).
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
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New distributions added to database
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New distributions added to waiting list
- Conducit Linux. Conducit Linux is a German Debian-based distribution designed for beginning Linux users. The project's website is in German.
- Exherbo Linux. Originally a fork of Gentoo Linux, Exherbo Linux is a source-based distribution for developers and advanced users, designed for "people who know what they're doing with Linux".
- GNUGuitarINUX. GNUGuitarINUX is a lightweight, Debian-based distribution and live CD featuring a real-time kernel and configured to have the smallest latency possible. It has several programs, but the most important one is Rakarrack, a richly featured multi-effects processor emulating a guitar effects pedalboard. Everything is preconfigured to work out-of-the-box, so users can try and enjoy many great guitar programs that are not available on the Windows platform.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 31 January 2011.
Jesse Smith and Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Thanks! (by Fewt on 2011-01-24 15:09:18 GMT from United States)
Thanks for taking another look at Fuduntu! There were unfortunately some bugs that crept into 14.8 causing Flash and Fluendo MP3 to be ignored when I built the live CD which I didn't notice until after it was released. I updated the live media to 14.8-3 this morning which corrects these (and a few other minor) issues and took an action to write a simple test plan to cover all of the basics before releasing so hopefully it won't happen again.
If you install the latest updates, it should self-heal without needing to be reinstalled.
I'll see what I can do about improving the software installation tools. :D
2 • Fuduntu name choice (by octathlon on 2011-01-24 16:23:21 GMT from United States)
Just wondering, why was a name chosen which makes it sound like an Ubuntu-based distro instead of Fedora-based? Does it incorporate anything from Ubuntu? And the beginning of the name, FUD, has a negative connotation (to me), and doesn't make me think of Fedora.
3 • The World IPv6 Day (by Anonymous on 2011-01-24 16:51:27 GMT from Canada)
What about my 5 year old Linksys wi-fi router? Should I toss it to trash now?
4 • Installers (by Anonymous on 2011-01-24 17:07:07 GMT from United States)
I actually liked the installer that came with PCLOS for use with Openoffice, and give the weight of what was installed and the fact that is was a CD sized distro it made perfect sense. On the other hand Asturix using an installer for a small program like Firefox for an all ready DVD sized distro makes absolutely no sense. There is also a good point to what you mentioned about the package manager, although I don't think that that should be an excuse to not try easier ways to accomplish the task of installing needed commonly used software. I do however think that easy install methods should be reserved for things that are much more complicated than a web browser, such as bundles of media codecs, large office suites, etc.. More complicated tasks should be made simple rather than dumbing down certain common tasks.
5 • Fuduntu (by Jeremiah on 2011-01-24 17:42:01 GMT from United States)
"Fedora's crippled package and update tools..."
I'm wondering what exactly makes Fedora's package manager "crippled." yum is by far superior to apt-get. Perhaps packagekit needs work, but yum itself is quite good.
6 • Dragora (by jakel on 2011-01-24 18:11:36 GMT from United States)
I'm sorry to see an unfavorable review for Dragora. I was able to get this release of Dragora up and working in VirtualBox, although to be honest, I did have to do some troubleshooting to get there. It includes an Xfce desktop with a nice green theme, and an interesting selection of apps. To my mind, I see Dragora as a minimalist distro that is a good jumping-off point for working with libre software. Perhaps, for now, I would agree that it is for users not unfamiliar with the command-line or unwilling to do a bit of troubleshooting. However, all in all, I would like to thank Matías for his efforts to advance the state of fully Free GNU/Linux distros and I look forward to each new release.
7 • Pardus 20011 (by zeux on 2011-01-24 18:24:25 GMT from Portugal)
Pardus 2001 is a very beautiful box but with nothing inside. Even the humble compiz-fusion is not possible to install. Total loose of time.
8 • IPv6 and YUM (by Jesse on 2011-01-24 18:35:26 GMT from Canada)
@3:
I wouldn't throw out the router. We should see a few years of websites offering both IPv4 and IPv6 and, during that time, your router should be up to the task. Check out the test site I mentioned in the article to confirm your setup will work on sites with both addresses. I wouldn't worry about upgrading until sites start to go IPv6 only, which should be quite a ways in the future. Even then, you may be able to set up a IPv6 tunnel, if you're opposed to upgrading your hardware.
@5:
I didn't say anything against YUM. I quite like YUM as a command line package manager. I was talking about Fedora's GUI update and package tools only. They're slow, really painfully slow at times, and don't provide much info. Fedora has a habit of throwing out their package manager every few releases and starting over with something else, so their GUI package managers never get to a point where they're polished. I think they really need to pick one package manager and put resources into making it good enough to stand alongside other package managers. Packagekit is just not suitable for the job.
9 • Pardus 2011 (by New Fan Pardus on 2011-01-24 18:42:50 GMT from Canada)
I am a user and as a hobby tester LINUX and BSD system for 4 years now. I tested the latest version of Pardus in 2010 the version 2009.2 release that made me feel good. But with this new version is 2011 I am impressed with this distribution. Facility well designed, well staged and very simple installation for end user. A personalized configuration of the KDE. An excellent manager software, quick and really fast update.
After testing dozens of distributions, I can say that Pardus 2011 is among the best. One of the most pleasant surprise early this year. I believe that this distribution should be known.
Certainly in the Top 5 Distro Out of the box.
Congratulations to the developer and extraordinary community support.
10 • Respins and things.. (by davemc on 2011-01-24 19:25:33 GMT from United States)
Nothing new here. We really should make a name for these as they are not really Distro's in their own right. Distrolets or something like that would be more appropriate, because they are truly nothing more than the parent distro with a few simple user tweaks. They offer nothing beyond what is already out there, and truly are a complete waste of ones time/effort to deal with. They do offer a snapshot as to what can be done to enhance the real parent distro if one has a mind. Beyond that, there is nothing original about them. I think there should be criteria to qualify for what is or is not a Distro. Things like:
1. Package management/package manager. A true distro maintains its own repo's, does updates, and tends to zero in on a specific package management framework and structure of its own.
2. Should have a dedicated core development team that not only develops new unique content, but also maintains a bugtracker and fixes its own bugs and/or works with upstream.
3. Maintains a Developer mailing list and website complete with user forums. The project must also have a documentation section documenting features unique to its own project as well as links to all things common to Linux.
I'm sure you guys can come up with additional criteria. The idea here is not that we wish to exclude copycat distro's or wannabe's, as that is where some amazing new idea's can spring forth and all should be encouraged to try, but that qualifying the term "Distribution" is an important step that should be taken to identify projects that have the ability to stand on their own merits and can support thier userbase properly. All the current big names would qualify under these conditions, but the copycats and wannabe's would not and should be quantified under a different title. This will cut down on a lot of confusion that springs up for new users as well and help point them in the right direction as to which projects have the ability to support their needs.
#9 - It should not matter to Pardus where they sit on the DW rankings. They are a government sponsored project for Turkish interests. I seriously doubt those in power in Turkey study the PHR of DW to determine wether or not they will continue to fund Pardus or not.
11 • Fuduntu again? (by forlin on 2011-01-24 19:42:44 GMT from Portugal)
There are hundreds of distros. Fudunto was reviewed here at DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 382, 29 November 2010. Pardus is my best suggestion for a worthy review.
12 • @10 (by Fewt on 2011-01-24 20:12:53 GMT from United States)
"We really should make a name for these as they are not really Distro's in their own right." Normally they are branded as "spins" and / or "remixes". Fuduntu is branded as a remix, but it fits into your classification as a distribution.
"1. Package management/package manager. A true distro maintains its own repo's, does updates, and tends to zero in on a specific package management framework and structure of its own."
Fuduntu has both a stable and a testing repository. These repositories are further broken down into RPMs and Source RPMs. The repository configuration metadata is hosted in the fuduntu-release rpm.
I do however leverage Fedoras repositories for packages that I choose not to maintain myself.
"2. Should have a dedicated core development team that not only develops new unique content, but also maintains a bugtracker and fixes its own bugs and/or works with upstream."
Fuduntu has a core team, though small. The team currently consists of myself (responsible for the distribution development, website, and forum admin), a seed manager who maintains our torrents, and a forum moderator.
"3. Maintains a Developer mailing list and website complete with user forums. The project must also have a documentation section documenting features unique to its own project as well as links to all things common to Linux."
Fuduntu has mailing lists for developers (https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fuduntu-devel), and for users (https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fuduntu-users) as well as a forum (http://www.fuduntu.org/forum) in addition to the website (http://www.fuduntu.org).
There is also a published project roadmap describing the direction at a high level (http://fuduntu.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=20).
I am working on documentation as time permits. Hopefully someone with interest in writing documentation would be interested in joining the Fuduntu team soon.
"This will cut down on a lot of confusion that springs up for new users as well and help point them in the right direction as to which projects have the ability to support their needs."
I hope this information helps.
13 • Debian Installer and RE: 4-5-11 (by Landor on 2011-01-24 20:17:07 GMT from Canada)
It's nice to see Debian getting closer and closer. That pretty well means anyone who wants to jump on a netinstal should, since any changes this close are just an update away.
I'll be (hopefully) migrating to Debian Testing with the release of 6.0, fully Libre of course. I'll just change the sources.list to reflect testing instead of stable. They're actually really close to when they released 5.0.
#4
You actually think installing an office suite is a more complicated task than is a web client?
No insult intended, since that's the case I guess you're quite happy that PCLOS gave you the easier option. I'd personally recommend exploring how to install it yourself. You may find it's not complicated in any way, for anyone.
#5
I personally don't feel crippled is the correct term. I do find package management in Fedora slow at the very least. It's definitely a lot slower than apt/dpkg. When you add PackageKit to the mix, which is extremely slow, you have one of the slowest package management systems in Linux today. Then factor in DeltaRPMs and the wait time gets even worse. The only advantages that Yum really has over APT is the fact that they took every option needed and built them directly into it. Where APT it's strung across a number of tools. To arbitrarily say Yum is far superior is simply not accurate, at least just by only stating it without any evidence lending to the fact.
#11
Did you read the opening part of the article? Since the distribution had been previously reviewed it wouldn't take much space to do a follow-up. Which of course fits with layout of the article, space-wise. Doing a review of Pardus would simply have not worked in the remaining space, nor would it have been a full and proper review. If you are saying you would have rather read a review of Pardus than the summary reviews of the three distributions then why only make it a point of discussing the one only.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
14 • Fedora's PackageKit Re 5--8-13 (by Vukota on 2011-01-24 20:44:09 GMT from United States)
I recently switched from OpenSuse to Fedora on couple boxes, and I do agree that PackageKit is very slow and hides info from you (what its doing, what is the progress, what its being installed...) and it is very easy to interrupt it by mistake (unless you are used to it being slooooow).
15 • Pardus (by forlin on 2011-01-24 20:55:31 GMT from Portugal)
Camon Landor, don't be evil :)
I'm not pretending to say what anyone at Dww "should" have done. Never did and will never do.
Sorry if I was unclear. I did mean Pardus for a future review.
16 • Pardus (by sudonym on 2011-01-24 21:35:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
As far as I'm concerned, Pardus is an outstanding distro - just keeps improving.
17 • Qt in Ubuntu (by Leo on 2011-01-24 21:37:59 GMT from United States)
It has to be noted that Qt is already a part of Ubuntu. It is officially packaged, and it in the official repos.
Another thing to note is that they plan to use Qt for platforms where a 3D Unity desktop wouldn;t fly (ARM, embedded, etc). It would make a lot more sense to use the Qt toolkit for all Unity development, and at least simplify the code base. Qt has excellent OpenGL/3D capabilities.
Also to be noted: they are working on making the Qt settings to play nice with the Gnome settings/configuration files framework.
Cheers!
18 • #3 (by kilgoretrout on 2011-01-24 22:02:29 GMT from United States)
As previously commented, no need to throw out your ipv4 hardware for some time. However, many linksys routers can be flashed with custom firmware to give them ipv6 capability. Check out the ddwrt project to see if your router is compatible:
http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index
19 • Pardus Distro (by New fan Pardus on 2011-01-25 01:41:44 GMT from Canada)
10: It should not matter to Pardus where they sit on the DW rankings. They are a government sponsored project for Turkish interests. I seriously doubt those in power in Turkey study the PHR of DW to determine wether or not they will continue to fund Pardus or not.
_______________________________________________________________
Pardus is sponsored by the government as well as the Russian Government has decided to favorite Mandriva operating system in Russian Gouverment. This does not detract from the work done by developers. It's a good thing the development a distribution is sponsored. PC-BSD is also sponsored. If I understand your thinking on the classification of Pardus on Distrowatch. Then we must also remove the sponsored distribution such as Ubuntu and it's 3 millon baby Distro, Fedora, OpenSuse, etc. ... I dont thing that a good way. Sponsor us no matter who is behind a distribution
20 • Fuduntu (by ericthered on 2011-01-25 01:50:04 GMT from United States)
Fuduntu looks like a very interesting remix. After the first review I thought I'd give it some time before bothering to take a look. Now I think I will download it and take a serious look.
21 • Future of Gnome ! (by johncoom on 2011-01-25 03:00:32 GMT from Australia)
For those who have not noticed it yet ! Many Gnome lovers may be interested in this ?
GNOME 3.0 will be officially released on April 6th 2011 ! Have you started to plan for your own GNOME 3.0 Launch Party in your region yet ?
See: http://www.gnome3.org/
22 • PHR (by Nobody on 2011-01-25 07:23:41 GMT from United States)
How about changing the Page Hit Rankings so that it shows the parent distro only and clicking on it shows the children? Something like the following:
Rank Distibution H.P.D
- Ubuntu+Children 5817
1 Ubuntu 1862
2 Mint 1697
9 Puppy 777
10 Ultimate 687
20 Zorin 400
22 Lubuntu 394
+ 3 Fedora+Children 1525
+ 4 Debian+Children 1206
Something like this might please those like davemc.
Is this good or bad? Any suggestions?
23 • Re: #21 Gnome3 (by silent on 2011-01-25 08:43:52 GMT from France)
I follow gnome-shell from git and it is really simple. I miss though an option to turn off compositing, I checked www.gnome3. org and from the "Try out" it appears that Gnome3=gnome-shell. Is it really the case?
24 • Fuduntu (by Chdslv on 2011-01-25 09:41:42 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Hey, Fewt, don't worry so much about criticism! It is easy to criticize...testing also easy, but make something...
How about making a minimalist OS? You know, Windows 7 is also minimalist, even though it bloated like a pregnant cow.
Let the end user find out what programs he/she needs and download it, and you give a better way of doing that with YUM or whatever...
Whatever anyone says, there is NO need for the developer to keep a repository...It would take the developer's time and energy, which could be used to produce a high-quality OS...
You have the energy and the desire to produce, so produce a high-quality OS! All these big names, which has money and time may not have the energy and desire...
We'll be waiting...
25 • Linux etc... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-25 09:54:10 GMT from Sri Lanka)
We have .rpm, .deb, etc, etc, but whatever the extension .abc, the program is the same...so, the end result is the same...and the end result is for the user, not for the developer...It's about time learn some good thing from old Bill G...He has only .exe and doing quite well with that!
Demanding Fewt to keep a full repository is not correct, for example, but if he and other developers can produce a gem of an OS, which can download any program and install using one extension .abc like BIll G's .exe, the Linux world would be much nicer and there's be more users!
What can any developer do, if there are no users???
26 • Re:#22 PHR (by TobiSGD on 2011-01-25 11:03:38 GMT from Germany)
LOL, Ubuntu is a child of Debian, so Debian should be in the first place ;)
27 • Re:#26 (by Nobody on 2011-01-25 12:50:51 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu has grown up and kicked Debian to the basement. It is now raising children of its own in the main house. Every 6 months or so it goes to the basement to visit its parent. Is this a good description?
28 • Package types (by Jesse on 2011-01-25 13:28:34 GMT from Canada)
@Chdslv
>> "We have .rpm, .deb, etc, etc, but whatever the extension .abc, the program is the same...so, the end result is the same...and the end result is for the user, not for the developer...It's about time learn some good thing from old Bill G...He has only .exe and doing quite well with that!"
You apparently aren't familiar with Windows. There's also .msi packages and .cab packages too. And zip files, while we're at it.
Linux does have methods for installing packages across distros (close-source companies sometimes take this route), but most people don't use them because of the benefits that come from having repositories.
29 • PHR, etc (by fernbap on 2011-01-25 14:33:48 GMT from Portugal)
This whole issue is getting ridiculous.
Btw, puppy is not and never was a Ubuntu respin. Get your facts right.
But i guess as long as there is people that don't see their pet distros on first place in PHR, there will be people complaining about PHR not being "real" or "accurate". Get over it.
Most distros include Firefox. Shall we call them Firefox respins?
This endless ranting about "real distros" and "respins" and "fake distros" will get you nowhere.
What is a "real distro" and what is not? Who cares? A "real distro" is a distro that works for its targeted users.
What is important is is to classify distros for their objectives: desktop, server, firewall, etc, and also for its target public: beginner, intermediate experienced.
@10
Mint passes your "test" for a real distro with flying colors. Shall we stop saying that it is based on Ubuntu, as it classifies as a "real distro"?
A "distribution" is something that is distributed. period.
30 • Linux etc... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-25 14:48:21 GMT from Sri Lanka)
@ Jesse
Oh, forget about .msi, etc, etc...and concentrate on the gist of what I wrote. it is .exe all the way from the time of windows 3.1 and earlier. Bill G is not that geeky as most of the Open source developers and even the users, but he is brainy enough to carve out a empire, while others fight it out...whose Linux distro is better, etc, etc, instead of developing a good amount of useful programs, rather than putting out hundreds of Linux babies...We still don't have Linux sketchup, nor AutoCad...all these Wine, which is not an emulator, blah, blah, blah...
Come on, these unlimited amount Linux OS flavours won't make the Open Source world better, maybe much more freer as anyone can remaster...And of course, we have lot of websites writing about Linux OS flavours, what is good, what is not good, etc...That,s why I wrote let Pewt try his best, for he is trying and has the energy and the desire...
Users? They just distro-hop, thanks to many websites, right? And they become fan sof one distro or other, which never gives the GNU/Linux OS any good, for there are very little people, who make some good programs to stand against the world domination of Bill G!
How many in Canada, Jesse know about GNU/Linux? Isn't it all Mac and/or Windows 7?
31 • RE:29 Just one time (by Eddie on 2011-01-25 15:22:26 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (FUD).
32 • Canada (by Sean on 2011-01-25 15:42:54 GMT from Canada)
@ Chdslv
I'm in Canada, I use various types of GNU+Linux.
33 • Re 27 (by Anonymous on 2011-01-25 15:52:24 GMT from United States)
No. If Debian ceased to exist, Ubuntu would need to find another real distro to leech off of.
34 • Linux (by Jesse on 2011-01-25 16:46:25 GMT from Canada)
>> "Come on, these unlimited amount Linux OS flavours won't make the Open Source world better,"
I suppose that depends on what you mean by better. Most of us probably wouldn't be interested in Linux if it were limited to one brand. Many of us enjoy the diversity and the flexibility that brings. Tools such as SliTaz, Clonezilla, GParted Live are positive results of that diversity.
>> "How many in Canada, Jesse know about GNU/Linux? Isn't it all Mac and/or Windows 7?"
I don't have any hard numbers. From what I've seen desktop Linux usage is statistically low in Canada. However, there has been enough interest in Linux here to open up government websites to support Linux, Dell now ships Linux boxes to Canada, the bigger super computers here run Linux. It'll also depend on what you measure. Do you mean GNU/Linux desktop/laptop markets, do you include servers, what about Andriod devices, TiVos? Depending on how you count, you could manipulate the numbers to show anywhere from around one per cent up to around forty.
35 • Distro's and stuff.. (by davemc on 2011-01-25 16:52:54 GMT from United States)
#19 - I take it that English is not your language. You misread/misunderstood my comment. My point was that Distro's like Pardus which are privately funded do what they do for special interests and will continue to do what they do even if not one person knows about the distro or not, or even if nobody ever uses it other than a select small group of people. The developers are being paid to support the project regardless of its relative popularity on a questionable PHR chart, and those who pay them to do so most likely could care less what you, I, or anyone thinks about Pardus. The same could be said of Ubuntu, Red Hat/Fedora, SUSE, and Mandriva.
#22 - I see where you are going, but I think that would actually hurt the small projects from attracting users, and that is not my intent with this. I think Fewt actually grasps what I am getting at a little better, as even he mentioned that his project has been branded a respin rather than a Distribution, rightly or wrongly. The problem is that projects like Fewts may very well "fit" the branding of a full fledged Distribution in the customary sense, but are branded differently by someone of repute and it sticks, which is unfair to Fewt and quite probably would detract users and developers from taking a closer look and possibly joining up. The reverse is also true in that projects which truly are nothing more than a different theme of the parent distro waste peoples time because they were branded incorrectly and present a misleading view into what the project actually does/is and what level of support can be offered. This is why specific criteria needs to be applied to each project to qualify for the branding of full fledged Distribution.
#24 - I actually think Fewt understands how feedback works much better than you do judging from your comment. From all accounts he welcomes it so that he can improve upon his project. Discouraging criticism/feedback is counter productive to any project and only serves to ultimately kill it off as it becomes too necrotic, inward focused, and hostile to outside input. There is a difference here that I think you do not understand, unfortunately, and that is that all Open Source projects that have risen to success do so BECAUSE of outside criticism and the receptivity of the developers behind them to change.
#25 - The packaging format any project uses is not as important as the repo's of the projects critical packages while providing a support framework for their users to quickly and easily obtain any package they desire to install. All package dependencies should be met within the projects framework and once installed, should work. The problem with depending on another project's repo's is - what happens if that other projects repo's go away for any reason?... The project you are using has no control over what or how other projects manage their repo's. This leaves compiling from source or providing their users with locally controlled binary package repo's as the only reliable delivery method. The second issue is of course what happens when a project diverges infrastructure?.. This is why Ubuntu and Debian are not 100% compatible.
#29 - Whoever said Puppy was a Ubuntu respin?.. Puppy has been around for a long time and Barry designed it from scratch. It is an original Distro in the true sense of the term. Puppy has a version using a Ubuntu base, but it is just one of many.
Your correct that Mint does fit most of the proposed criteria, and that is fine. I do think Mint fits the category of being a full fledged Distro by all accounts. Mint maintains its own repo's for .mint, they provide great support for their users, arguably better even than Ubuntu does. They have a growing and dedicated fiery team of Developers that provide support for their userbase. They maintain wiki's and docs and have a thriving website. Perhaps at one point that project would have fit the mold of being a respin, but it has matured considerably and grown into what it is now.
You can name a Cat anything you like, but its still a Cat. Calling a Cat a different name though can and does confuse people who do not know what a Cat is. What I am proposing is that we provide some general guidelines as to what makes a Cat, a Cat so that when official sources declare a project to be a Cat, we know it really IS a Cat rather than a mouse dressed up as a Cat or vica versa, if you get my meaning, :)
36 • Full fledged distros? (by ezsit on 2011-01-25 18:54:35 GMT from United States)
This discussion comes and goes. I think Ladislav will do what he wants when it comes to defining what a distro is and is not. My opinion, for the two cents it may be worth, is that a distro should be defined as a work which does not depend on another distro for survival. Debian, Red Hat/Fedora, Mandriva, Slackware, Paldo, OpenSuse, Crux, Gentoo, Pardus, Lunar, ALT, and probably many more would qualify. Most so-called distros would not. This is not to say that there is something wrong with them or their value is lessened, just a recognition that derivatives could not exist without the independents.
37 • #36 • Full fledged distros (by anticapitalista on 2011-01-25 19:09:19 GMT from Greece)
My bet is that the vast majority (if not all) derivatives know full well they could not exist without the 'parents'.
Surely a distro is just what it says it is ie a distrubution (of linux) made available for others to use (if they want). Who cares if they are the 'original' or not, and those that do care, use the 'original'.
38 • #37 (by ezsit on 2011-01-25 19:25:40 GMT from United States)
I give the maintainers of all distros credit for knowing their roots. Fanboys are a different matter. When fanboys are under the false impression that Distro U could somehow do without Distro D it really shows their ignorance and utter lack of understanding. That's all for my rant today.
39 • ... distros that provide easy to set up solutions ... (by meanpt on 2011-01-25 20:17:59 GMT from Portugal)
... to cope with the interoperability of devices would be welcomed. Unfortunately i've not witnessed any effort in that direction from the free as in speech communities.
40 • Other ways to look at things. (by Eddie on 2011-01-25 20:18:35 GMT from United States)
Well you have all your base, parent, or whatever you want to call them distros and then you have other distros that build upon them. Now I don't care one way or the other because there is no reason to reinvent the wheel so to speak. I give no more credence to a so called independent distro than I do to a good re-mix. I'm not talking about the ones who just change the wallpaper or icons and add a few new or different applications. I'm talking about the ones who really work to get a special distro that really jumps out at you. All distros had to build off of something sometime in the past. There is a lot of fanboy foolishness here and people need to remember that you do not have to reinvent something when you already have something that works well. Debian is a fantastic base distro and they are right where they want to be. Ubuntu took the Debian base and made it a fantastic distro for general public use and LinuxMint took the Ubuntu base and made a totally different version of Debian/Ubuntu. All I'm trying say is when you have a core that works you do not need to invent another one. That's the way I look at it and of course that's just my opinion.
41 • PackageKit (by PackageKitPython on 2011-01-25 20:25:47 GMT from United States)
PackageKit is so slow cause it is python
42 • Distros or ? (by New fan Pardus on 2011-01-25 20:33:10 GMT from Canada)
#35 : Sorry for my interpretation. Your view is justified...
I also think that we should review the allocation model and separate the original Distro of the baby as good a avenue for Distrowatch. An example: Ultimate Edition is a customized version of ubuntu in look, codecs, drivers etc. .. The result is super! But is this really a proper Distribution ? I dont think so !
Sorry if my english is not perfect..
43 • PackageKit (by Jesse on 2011-01-25 20:52:58 GMT from Canada)
>> "PackageKit is so slow cause it is python"
I don't agree with that. Ubuntu's Software Center is written mostly in Python and it's noticeably faster and the interface is more responsive on my machines than Fedora's package manager front-end.
44 • Installers (by #4 on 2011-01-25 20:57:22 GMT from United States)
@ Landor
I actually see quite a large number of packages related to Open Office in synaptic, and while there may be an easier way to install OOo through the metapackages in the 'tasks' section of synaptic I would contend that to a new user the installer is actually worth it for such a vital item that wouldn't have fit on the burnt CD. As an example, the first time I looked through the package manager at the desktops that could be installed I was bewildered by the number of packages and sat there and wondered how many & which boxes would need to be checked to give me another desktop to log in to. As it turned out there was an easier way in the aforementioned 'tasks' in synaptic, and as for all of the other browsers I've installed, well that all just checking a single box. At any rate, yes I still contend that from my experience that some installers make sense, especially for newbie friendly distros, but it wouldn't make sense for any of the browsers I've installed.
45 • Distributions (by tdockery97 on 2011-01-25 21:07:55 GMT from United States)
While the fanboys seem to enjoy doing everything they can to divide the Linux community, at least the developers do what they can to bring it all together. One need only look at Debian's current project to bring developers together from a number of distros in a free and open exchange of ideas, projects, and coding.
46 • latest austrumi includes LibreOffice (by gnomic on 2011-01-25 21:23:38 GMT from New Zealand)
The latest cut of austrumi (2.2.5) includes LibreOffice. It also has Opera 11. Works OK on a couple of Pentium M era laptops here. Slight caveat in that the network manager gui utility doesn't seem able to do WPA wireless, out of the box at any rate. (This is not NetworkManager but something called Netbox) Did experience a glitch on a desktop machine with an S3 Savage series video card - on trying to switch from the Latvian language desktop to English in a live session everything went dark and the session never resumed. OK on other machines with Intel/ATI video. Quite a bit packed into an iso under 200MB.
47 • @43/41 PackageKit (by PackageKit on 2011-01-25 21:29:09 GMT from United States)
Based off watching 'top' while running PK on f12... python is at the top (using more resources than PK itself), taking a good amount of cpu/mem.
I use YumEx now, which is just as slow, but more verbose
48 • IPv6 test: my ISP flunked (by Candide on 2011-01-25 22:07:16 GMT from Taiwan)
Thanks for the link to the IPv6 test. Depressing though it is, my ISP seems unaware of IPv6 and I resoundingly flunked the test. It just amazes me that it's taking so long for this technology to go mainstream. The IPv6 standard was finalized in 1998.
49 • Re #35 replying to #29 (by MarkSouth on 2011-01-25 22:10:11 GMT from Switzerland)
"#29 - Whoever said Puppy was a Ubuntu respin?.. Puppy has been around for a long time and Barry designed it from scratch. It is an original Distro in the true sense of the term. Puppy has a version using a Ubuntu base, but it is just one of many."
The Puppy community continue to spread this myth of the "immaculate conception" of Puppy. Like Athena, it sprang fully formed from the head of its parent.
Anyone who looks through the startup scripts from earlier Puppy version (before version 1 or maybe 1.2) will know what Puppy was originally based on. Sometime definitely after version 1, maybe around version 2.12, the scripts were cleaned of the original copyright notices, in violation of the GPL. There was a thread about it in the Puppy forums at the time, although it will have been moderated to oblivion by now.
A clue can be found from the claim on the Slackware entry on Wikipedia that Puppy can use Slackware packages. The page has been cleaned of that bit, but it shows in earlier revisions. Anyone with a browser can verify this.
If you want to know the origins, you need the original code. Knowing how to use less and grep is enough.
50 • re 49 shall we split hairs? (by gnomic on 2011-01-25 23:31:54 GMT from New Zealand)
Far be it from me to enter into a hairsplitting contest of the sort sadly all too familiar round here - but if you mean that Puppy is derived from Slackware, why not just say so? In any case, what does it matter?
At this point in time the situation is as I understand it that some versions of Puppy can use Slack packages and some can't.
One might say that Linux itself is derivative of earlier works. I am reminded of the famous words of Isaac Newton - "If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."
By the way I am not a Puppy fanboy, or member of some dread Puppy cabal dedicated to rewriting history. I occasionally run Puppy to take advantage of some of its features. As it happens this comes from a live CD session of Slack Puppy 055.
51 • Crux (by RobertD on 2011-01-25 23:33:32 GMT from United States)
I have been doing some reading up on other Slackware *like* distros and came upon Crux Linux. I am aware of the various Slack type options (i.e., Salix, Zen, Vector, etc, etc) but am more interested in learning something new.
The project seems geared toward the more advanced user and not to interested in holding ones hand through the install process.
I find the "keep it simple" philosophy inline with Slackware as well as the BSD-style initscripts and tar.gz package format.
What I find intriguing is ports and compiling my own kernel.
If anyone has experience they would like to share, please do.
RobertD
52 • @ 36 • Full fledged distros (by Anonymous on 2011-01-26 00:08:14 GMT from Portugal)
"Debian, Red Hat/Fedora, Mandriva, Slackware, Paldo, OpenSuse, Crux, Gentoo, Pardus, Lunar, ALT, and probably many more would qualify."
... like Arch. Well worth to mention too.
53 • Re. 51 (by uz64 on 2011-01-26 03:19:19 GMT from United States)
CRUX is nice, but was a bit above my experience level when I tried it. From my understanding it was part of the inspiration behind Arch Linux, another great distro but above my comfort level. I was able to get a GUI set up in Arch (with some trouble--I have trouble with the way its package management system is set up), but had very little luck getting past a basic console installation in CRUX. If you're somewhat advanced, I'm sure either one has its pros and cons. I respect them for what they are... more choices for those who want them, and even more importantly, something unique and different from the other distros out there. Something that can't be said about Ubuntu and the countless Ubuntu-based distros out there (with the minor potential exception being Linux Mint).
54 • For RobertD and perhaps other slackers (by RollMeAway on 2011-01-26 03:25:11 GMT from United States)
I stumbled upon an interesting one man show, live CD/USB distro, based upon slackware/salix.
"Pocket Writer OS is for creative writers who need a portable operating system that can boot on various PC's and is capable of being burned to CD-R/CD-RW or installed to USB, USBHDD, and Hard Drive in either "frugal persistent" mode or full "hard-drive install" mode. The vision is the idea of having a portable system that has most any application needed for an on-the-go writer."
http://multidistro.com/
I found this searching for a slack based e17. This offers e17, LXDE, Xfce4 and Openbox.
Bookmarks are included within Firefox for various Slackware interests including building your own kernel.
Offered as a diversion.
55 • @54 Pocket Writer (by Jack on 2011-01-26 04:28:03 GMT from Canada)
LOL, do poets know what frugal persistent mode is…or do they try and think of something to rhyme with it?
56 • Distros etc... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-26 05:44:02 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Everything has to be derived from something...Everything is evolving...I tried Mepis, but didn't like it, but tried AntiX-Marek Edelmann and liked it and will keep it. It is evolved from Mepis and Debian..so what? It is pretty good!
Crunchbang Statler is derived from Ubuntu and Debian, and it is pretty good than Ubuntu and Debian.
I believe that people like Anticapitalista and Corenominal can come up with their own Linux "distro", without having to "derive" from other ones, but use them as help...
CTKArch and Archbang is much nicer than Arch itself. Sabayon is better than Gentoo.
OSs like Puppy is a class by itself. If Puppy becomes an "installable" OS, then there is a big chance of taking the world by storm! Even, if Puppy gives us the "minimalistic" look like MS Windows, and asks us to download what we want, if we want, it would still be one of the very best!
And how about Slitaz? What about Kolibri? They prove that all programs DO NOT have to be bloated, do not have to as large as FreeBSD...maybe not large as Debian or Arch or Redhat or whatever...In the days of Atari, Commodore the word processor was so small, measured in bites...
Anyway, I have been reading "reviews" of distros in many websites, and most "reviews" ar epretty biased!
57 • Enough already ... (by jake on 2011-01-26 06:25:10 GMT from United States)
We all know what distros, derivatives and respins are.
A "distro" is a ground-up release, based on nothing but source, with it's own scripting, and artwork that is unique.
A derivative is based on a distro, usually/often with much modified scripting and artwork, using mostly the parent distro's source archive, but occasionally with other packages in a separate archive.
A respin is a personal spin on a distro or derivative, often with modified artwork, and/or additional packages that suit the developer of the release, but rarely with anything remotely resembling technical or usability improvements.
All have their place. All have their users. None are "wrong".
Methinks that continuing to figure out a better way of classifying all the wild & varying takes on FOSS operating systems is a good idea ... but wasting energy on getting emotionally attached/involved is counter-productive.
58 • As for archives ... Both importing software, and saving my stuff ... (by jake on 2011-01-26 06:38:39 GMT from United States)
Wherever possible, I've been using `tar` with compression and scripting on every OS I've used for around 40 years ... So far, I haven't lost anything that I can think of. I haven't had any problem installing new software, either.
Now ask me why I still run Slackware ...
It ain't the tool. It's the user.
59 • distros etc... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-26 06:58:37 GMT from Sri Lanka)
I think Jake is right in a way, but it is the tool and it is the user...and also it is the developer...I think the websites should not overly criticize the developer...it is always easy to criticize...
Btw, Jake, distro is a distribution of one's own and other people's programs. What we are lacking is an operating system, aka MS Windows, MacOs, etc...
Every program in MS Windows is installed with .exe, but it is not that way with Linux. Everyone has their own stuff .beb. .rpm, etc, etc...why not one method, even if it is only tar? Why waste the valuable time and energy of the programmers, developers in redoing everything into .deb or .rpm or whatnot? The end result of a given program is the same, right?
60 • The developer creates the tool, the user uses it ... (by jake on 2011-01-26 07:40:55 GMT from United States)
... and hopefully the user provides bug reports to the developer, thus completing the circle. If you run into problems, and don't file bug reports, you are part of the problem.
"What we are lacking is an operating system, aka MS Windows, MacOs, etc..."
The OS exists. It's called Linux. Your computer operates, right?
Perhaps what you mean is that Linux (BSD, Minix, whathaveyou) needs better branding. Here I agree. But I'm not sure how to get the in-cohesive masses to band together ... Especially not when multi-billion dollar global corporations seem to be going out of their way to scatter the effort (are you listening, Canonical?).
(I'm not being antagonistic; I suspect English is not your primary language ... and I also suspect that your use of English is a hell of a lot better than my ability with your primary language!)
"Every program in MS Windows is installed with .exe"
You keep typing this. It's not true. There are many ways to use scripting to install code in MS Windows that have no need of .exe files.
"why not one method, even if it is only tar?"
Kinda my point, no? `tar` has worked for me for ~40 years ... If it ain't broke, why try to fix it?
61 • #57 'We all know what distros, derivatives and respins are.' (by anticapitalista on 2011-01-26 08:49:28 GMT from Greece)
Where did you get those definitions from Jake?
62 • @61 (by jake on 2011-01-26 09:23:27 GMT from United States)
Where'd I find 'em? It's obvious, to anyone paying attention ... Most of us who have been in the business for several decades tend to keep an eye on the vernacular.
There is a lingua franca around these here parts. Ignoring it is contra-indicated if you are planning on making a career of it.
63 • Dragora (by Vignesh on 2011-01-26 10:38:04 GMT from Sweden)
I also had similar experiences with Dragora Linux, I was able to connect online though with my realtek ethernet 8139 card.
64 • ancient history (by nobody on 2011-01-26 11:05:09 GMT from Canada)
The ONE topic which appears in every DW weekly pages:
How can you/I/aunt- Polly come to an agreement on what constitutes an "Original" Distro, Otherwise described as:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Rendundant History Buffs.
So how far back does anyone care to go - Torvalds' monolithic kernel
Linux - the KERNEL - itself a rewritten Unix variant ?
BTW unlesss written in assembler, what use is any w/out a (Gcc) compiler & needed tools
NO iCC (intel's CC) doesn't fully work - but AFAIK, there are others
Thnx to LInus & co-hackers, an eclectic ensemble of tools were gathered, those that knew HOW (not me) gathered all the resources, released onto the unwashed - an quasi-integrated, operating system that actually booted, then did something
Slackware (Patrick-V.) was, if not the first -certainly one of the very few to offer linux as a package that could be installed by mere mortals
So now - how many offshoots were patched together from scratch ?
I mean TOTALLY- not from relatively recent T2. not from a remastered existing
O/system (Knoppix etal)
Not even from LFS which, i read - used any linux Distro as the basic starting point
Nit-picking, but OSX is not linux - it is an yet another unix variant of U of Berkeley Software Development
From which was emulated the sources "ports" system now in use by
Gentoo, Source-Mage, etc.
R.M Stallman (GNU / FSW Org) ) ESP the GPL -
Should go w/out saying, we lowly users owe a BIG debt
Which is a long-winded way of stating : It's all fun and games, but WTH does that matter now - and why care - to natter and rant endlessly on the merits of any Distro's "roots"
We ALL stand precariously - on the shoulders of giants
IMB & the PC standard ~ the Commodore64 ,with it's basic programming - on and on !
@ jake/# - tar just works: Well maybe not now ?
The latest TAR release has a problem: It does not build device nodes
How does that affect users "
Likley not at all - IF only used to compress/extract non-system critical things.
However, if used to back-up a system - NTIM, IMHO i wouldn't as there are better methods) ; of most importance to sources-based systems_
Tarballs are central to the building, as opposed to other distributions "installing",
of it's core, E.G extracting basic "stages" -
(From Funtoo - You know , the "So Gentoo-Foundation-- I can't come back and cure it all for you -
Well then , you don't want me , I'll just start another/'Improved " Gentoo.... so there ! - Drobbins
Seems very strange - how could one of the oldest "nix utilities miss that bug ?
All the time, effort expended on distro hopping, - does it lead to sufficient data to
properly assess any Linux offering ?
Maybe what we really seek - is an embedded system that most, if not all - the goodies
"can't-live-without " "can't/don't_want-to" install myself, sort of thingy
Yep ..been there, done that - but it finally is coming clear -
There is no such animal - unless I can build it myself - (me - fat chance)
We CAN, - now that is - but for now, I will just use the closest and try
to modify to fit
Blehh - seems we all became caught up in the games - forgetting or ignoring - it is NOT life
65 • Distros etc... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-26 11:32:22 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Well, Jake if you are an American, (or a Canadian) English is not your primary language, even though you speak something like English. (For example, if you go to BC, Canada and then to Toronto, you'd find most BC people speak English, while rest speaks Canadian.) And you speak American. hey, I am not being antagonistic, either...Anyway, we are not talking about English here...
Linux is not an operating system (OS), but a kernel, and the OS is what is built on and over it. A distro is a collection of one's own and other people's programs. An OS has to operate the computer coherently, and the end user can add any programs he/she needs, whether it is a music player, or a spreadsheet or even very specialist ones.
For example, Crunchbang, AntiX, Archbang, CTKArch, Unity, etc gives us a simple OS (less than a distro), and if we want we can add anything we like.
Why should I want to use Open Office, if I like Abiword? Ubuntu, OpenSuse, Fedora, etc adds everything and bloats everything. Mint does the same thing. Pinguys for example sends out his version of a respin, and if we like we can use it...
Puppy is a lovely distro, but I'd like it to be an OS.
You are right about .tar stuff, but our developers appear to be hell bent to find new ones - .deb,.rpm, ....abc blah, blah...why not stay at one type?
MS Windows is still .exe...whatever you say. Autocad is installed by a "setup.exe" or "install.exe"...Sketchup too is installed that way...The Open source does not even have a Sketchup, but maybe, just maybe we can install Sketchup by using the Wine, which is not an emulator...what is it then? So, we still have to have Wine with its XP like .exe stuff, right Jake?
I find that all Linux websites are pretty biased towards this distro or that distro! I have seen one website, which is really good and give a real opinion without pushing things down our throat. Distrowatch's reviews are somewhat biased too.
I would like to say, try the new distro or flavour or whatever in so many different types of hardware, before giving an opinion. Not just VM and/or one desktop or one laptop. but try different ones, which are generally sold in the market.
I use Crunchbang, and have AntiX and CTKArch, and also Aptosid in one machine, and have Ubuntus, Mints, etc in another machine. But, I come back to Crunchbang.
Anyway, I am not writing any more until the next Distrowatch Weekly, Jake, let others write too. Take care, guys!
66 • KDE (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2011-01-26 13:28:47 GMT from United States)
KDE SC 4.6 has just been released. The packages have just shown up in the Kubuntu Backports repo for Maverick.
67 • #65 (by Anonymous on 2011-01-26 14:30:12 GMT from Canada)
"...Why should I want to use Open Office, if I like Abiword? Ubuntu, OpenSuse, Fedora, etc adds everything and bloats everything. Mint does the same thing. Pinguys for example sends out his version of a respin, and if we like we can use it..."
Friends keep sending me emails with pps attachments. Ubuntu 10.04 opens them with OO.
Are there any (many?) linux apps that can open pps?
A list would be nice
Thanks
68 • pps... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-26 14:34:00 GMT from Sri Lanka)
There are many that open .pps in Linux, and they don't need all the OO to open them. In Ubuntu 10.04 go to Synaptic PM and write presentation and you'd find many...Take care!
69 • Timelines (by still nobody on 2011-01-26 15:19:16 GMT from Canada)
Jake @ #60 not to pick on you but;
You got me curious, when DID tar 1st appear in Unix
Which licensed Unix market group ?
Unless you worked for AT&T - in the latter years of their research labs, use of tar for 40 years appears to be Approx. 10 too many
Actually, even the implied use was somewhat ambiguous
Originally used as a bitstream archiver - primarily copying to/from tapes _ as a single file.
Tar did not compress - zip at that time could not concatenate (enter pkzip & others)
Unless I am mistaken in reading (again ?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_%28file_format%29
According to below, Unix version five did not even release until 1984
Recall the sysVinit sequence - widely adopted by Linux distributions ?
http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix/history_timeline.htmlx
Calculate Linux v11.0 , all flavours, is announced by DWW
Has nobody used it yet - how about earlier renditions
I have CL"D" KDE desktop v10.9 installed, am still trying to find how compatible
it is to Gentoo
Long being a user of Gentoo w/KDE (3..5.2) am finding newest KDE bundled with akonadi (PIM),.Mysql - too cumbersome, slow using Konqueror - as browser
Seamonkey was installed, not much better
It comes w/Chromium - fast but not to my liking
This version targeted to desktop users, boots in user GUI mode, default install
does not allow tty root log-in then startx as usual habits
Of course, that can be modified - a MUST for me but that behaviour was neither expected nor the "Gentoo" way
Like Sabayon, the core template profile can be altered, user overlays for portage
employed
Always a trade-off, speed of supplied binaries, bloated kernels - or
suffer the lengthy compile times
Full-blown desktops, KDE/Gnome being the worst, OOo (who NEEDS a full office suite)
and X-Org not much better.
Linux Distro offerings are still in hot pursuit of M/S escapees - CD ISO's are too small, Gigs of ram with powerful GPUs/multi-core CPUs almost mandatory
Whatever became of the vision of small, fully portable multi-functional devices,
utilizing programmable mini-O/systems ?
70 • Timelines... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-26 15:50:28 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Oh, I thought of not writing until the next Distrowatch Weekly, but...
You see, Jake didn't know that Linux is kernel, not an OS...so, he was just boasting...didn't you notice that?
71 • Sorry - first URL didn't paste correctly (by nobody - and now no URL ? on 2011-01-26 15:57:34 GMT from Canada)
Unix timelines - alhough probably more descriptive than accurate
http://www.unix.org/what_is_unix/history_timeline.html
72 • IPv6 on Ubuntu (by Andrew Yeomans on 2011-01-26 16:02:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
The Ubuntu IPv6 page is very useful, but its completeness might put you off.
The easy way is near the bottom, using Miredo. If you like to use a GUI interface, start up the Ubuntu software centre or Synaptic, search for "miredo" and install that. (Don't install "miredo-server".) That's it!
That gives you a tunnelled IPv6 connection which also works behind NAT routers.
73 • Linux OS (by #4/44 on 2011-01-26 16:27:33 GMT from United States)
@ # 65
Your right about one thing, Linux isn't an operating system, GNU/Linux on the other hand is, but it's also a large complex family of OSes. FreeBSD on the other hand is a complete package in and of its self and has a standard set of ways of doing things, at least from what I know but I've only used it in a firewall a little bit. There have been some attempts to make Linux into what you seem to seek, for instance you could look up the Linux Standard Base, but of course because the software is open source and no one really has any control distro developers tend to ignore such things and do what they want to. That's the price of freedom, it can get complex and messy and not have uniformity, even the BSDs have over a dozen variants even if many of the base systems are the same. At any rate after you pick a single disto you actually do have a complete OS, even if it isn't the same as other unix clones out there. If you don't want to go straight FreeBSD or something like that then take the good with the bad and just go with it, and perhaps consider what other advantages such a random collection of system components can bring.
74 • Fuduntu (by Barnabyh on 2011-01-26 16:55:50 GMT from Germany)
looks good, def. the best of the three for me. Why not call it Fedonto or Feduntu though?
Whatever, Namen sind Schall und Rauch, as a German saying goes.
75 • Reviews I would like to see in DW (by Mike on 2011-01-26 17:49:17 GMT from United States)
If any of the DW writers are reading count me as a reader who would love to see reviews of CRUX, Lunar, Debian kFreeBSD, Arch Hurd, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and DragonflyBSD from a desktop perspective. I think as Linux becomes more mainstream and user friendly the reviews become very predictable. Most modern hardware is detected out of the box, and differences come down more to polish, looks, package management, etc. I think it would be interesting to look at some of the BSD's from a desktop view as they are known quantities as a server, router, firewall OS. Personally I am trying FreeBSD and I am loving it so far as I try and make it work for me as a desktop.
76 • Reviews (by Jesse on 2011-01-26 18:14:24 GMT from Canada)
Re: 75:
In the past year I've covered most of the BSDs from a desktop perspective, I think. The latest stable releases of GhostBSD, PC-BSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD were all reviewed. FreeBSD was tackled from a server stand-point. I took a look at Dragonfly, but it didn't like my hardware and that review was aborted. If you're interested you can go back through the DWW issues and read them.
When GhostBSD gets an installer I'll probably review it again. And I'm hoping to look at PC-BSD 9 when it arrives.
77 • Re post # 73 - OOPs ? (by nobody on 2011-01-26 18:19:05 GMT from Canada)
A rose is a rose is,,, http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html
Please look again - AFAICT, "Gnu" linux is the GNU foundation use of the Linux kernel
vs their own HURD - still not ready -after how many years - 30 ?
Stallman/Gnu.org preceded Torvalds
Now could you tell us where the Linux kernel does NOT conform to GPL'd standards
My understanding - Individual Distros can include proprietary Apps as they please, meeting licensing requirements, but to my knowledge, not the kernel
-Other than modularised or built-in driver support.
To put it succinctly, I am not aware (whats new right?) of any proprietary -or closed
source code in the linux kernel
http://www.kernel.org/doc/#Standards
Large "Linux " DISTRO community yes - complex no- all are a somewhat dis-jointed
re-mix of ea other
Free BSD - & variants - different beasty - a BSD _UNIX - derivative
Now fully Unix compliant, anyway.. according to already stated/ readily verified sources
More important, may be - how many distributions follow GPL stipulations
They MUST supply readily available repositories for their own sources
NOT just a link to the parent maintainers' sources
Doing so might quiet the "What happens if the "original Deb-Redhat Ubuntu, whatever disappeared" syndrome
OTOH, this gnu/linux vs linux "naming-conventions" of O/sys topic, has been hashed many many times
Guess we have to accept that common useage will prevail - right or wrongly
Mildy interesting - MInix, A. Tanenbaum's pet ukernel project is alive & well as a computer sci. teaching tool for universities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX_3
Also available for download http://www.minix3.org/projects/
That's my yearly quota - sorry for the disruption to usual DWW Distro comments
78 • 68 • pps... (by Chdslv (by Anonymous on 2011-01-26 18:39:45 GMT from Canada)
perhaps not
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=58794&p=360782
Re: No sound in Impress
Postby riki on Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:51 pm
Thanks for your input princeinflorida. I have never used Helena. I am no longer interested in trying to make PPSs play sound in Linux, as stated earlier I have already spent/wasted far too much time on this issue. If it doesn't work out of the box, forget it. The devs know about it, they might decide to find a way one of these days. OOo/Impress with whom I've been corresponding don't appear to be interested either, so blow it.
Riki
There are other relevant posts at this forum
79 • Apples and oranges, @65 (by fernbap on 2011-01-26 19:12:25 GMT from Portugal)
tar is an universal file tranfer system, similar do DOS's xcopy, but with many, many more options. That is all that tar is.
Setup.exe is an application that installs a pre-compiled package. You are comparing apples with oranges here.
The Linux equivalent to setup.exe is .deb or .rpm. basically. Almost every linux distro uses one of these 2 formats for getting an installable pre-compiled application.
The issue of "linux offering too many formats" is mostly academic. You can find virtually every application in both these formats, depending on the distro you are using. If you are using a debian related distro, you use .deb. For red hat related distros, you use rpm. The user doesn't even need to know if the repositories are offering the applications in deb or rpm format, because their distro is prepared to install from them.
For those that like to build applications from source, you can get the sources using tar or any other format, then compile them. You can do that in windows as well. getting the sources and compiling them to make the executables. However, while exe files get their dependencies from a bunch of dlls that are supposed to be present, linux apps get their dependencies from external libraries that the installer will get from the repositories if needed.
That is an option, not exactly a different format.
In practice, you install a distro, and then you install applications from the distro repositories in a format that is as simple to use as setup.exe. Even simpler, as most have nice guis to do that, from which the user doesn't even need to know the name of any file.
Your issue is a non-issue.
80 • Fuduntu/Fedora GUI package manager (by Andrew Prough on 2011-01-27 01:23:06 GMT from United States)
From the Fuduntu review:
"The current GUI package manager Fedora offers is slow, painfully so at times. The update tool works, but doesn't really give us a good idea of what's going on, so during updates we just get a slow-moving progress bar with no sense of how long the process will take or which files are currently being downloaded."
-- Funny to see that some things never change. This is exactly what I would have written about the Red Hat GUI package manager in 2002 when I finally threw it off my desktop for good. I love the amount of info I get from YAST2's package manager on openSUSE, but I adore the speedy package managers on Ubuntu. A true marriage of Fedora and Ubuntu that used the Ubuntu GUI package managers would be quite interesting to take for a spin.
81 • @73 and @ 79, etc (by Chdslv on 2011-01-27 04:31:27 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Well, I appear to have opened a Pandora's box. The time when Windows 3.1 came up was exiting and the same time Linux was tried by many young guys, including my son, who had gone back to Windows in a big way now and would not even talk about Linux any more. I believe, most of the guys, who comment here are young ones, somewhat geeky or semi-geeky, who has some wish lists...
Most of the people, who read the websites on Linux are of the geeky or semi-geeky kind, and the others don't. It can be seen by the context of the contents of the comments.
Niether comment 65 and 79 is correct, for most probably written by young guys, who had not seen the evolution of Linux distros.
Freedom is good, but freedom also makes people heady!
Freedom to criticize is good too, but when criticizing the developers, whoever they are, I would like the criticizer to look at himself/herself in the mirror. When pointing at someone with one finger, 4 fingers point at you...
All these "reviews" should be "this is what I saw", because of my available hardware, but NOT "this is what I think of other person's hard work". Strangely, most of these 'reviews" don't match the reality, for the things these "reviewers" state don't come up in other person's hardware!
It is actually better to read the comments than the "review"!
There are lot of ONE-MAN-SHOWS out there in the Linux world (Open Source), and the reviewers should let them work without bringing them down!
It is someone's hard work and deprivation of sleep, so if anyone wants their work. When I see lines like "I don't think this distro is good for the newcomer (or Windows convert or whatever)", I find the review is biased and should not be even published.
No one has the right to all the brains in the world.
82 • Re: 69 ... I typoed. Happens, I'm human. But to clarify ... (by jake on 2011-01-27 06:27:18 GMT from United States)
"You got me curious, when DID tar 1st appear in Unix "
Roughly 30 years ago. I first used `tar` at Berkeley and DEC with UNIX[tm] V7.
::mental note:: When using the Wife's laptop, don't assume personal 10-key skills translate to the QWERTY top-row. Mea culpa.
83 • @65 & @70 (by jake on 2011-01-27 06:45:14 GMT from United States)
@65 ... "Anyway, I am not writing any more until the next Distrowatch Weekly"
Why? Oh ... never mind. Short attention-span?
@70 ... Whatever. See:
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb
Meets my personal criteria of an actual OS, but YMMV ... And I'm still sticking to Slackware for the duration, regardless.
84 • @83 (by Chdslv on 2011-01-27 07:09:47 GMT from Sri Lanka)
True enough, but you guys keep on at it...It is a very short life span.
I didn't say, I'd stop reading the comments, did I?
OK, guys, I'll keep my word, and won't write until next DW...
So, stop commenting on me, but write your own! Take care and have a nice day!
85 • @ - 75 • Reviews I would like to see in DW (by forlin on 2011-01-27 08:22:10 GMT from Portugal)
I agree that "... as Linux becomes more mainstream and user friendly the reviews become very predictable"
Its also true that BSD's have been reviewed at Dww often and when needed.
The big distros that release every 6 months, don't always add too many features. keeping in mind that many sites also review those timely releases, its rc''s, betas and alfas, a review update here may be enough.
What many readers may not be familiar, I think, is about the brand new distros.
There are many coming every week to the waiting list.
To keep Dww readers informed about those, it may be enough to focus once or twice a month, on the most important ups and downs of a few of them.
Considering that there are so many distros, it's difficult for developers to promote their new work, even the truly innovative and good quality ones.
Due to its user base, those reviews in the Dww, may enlighten users to try and maybe find promising distributions that suit their needs.
86 • Re: 75 • Reviews I would like to see in DW (by DG on 2011-01-27 08:34:13 GMT from Netherlands)
> count me as a reader who would love to see reviews of ..., Lunar, ...
It will be hard to compare a source based distro like Lunar, which offers experienced
users a text menu-based installer to create a bare minimum system on which you can
build further, against distros with full graphical installers of the complete desktop and
all applications intended for new Linux users or Windows converts.
Lunar lets you set up a minimal server system with no extraneous services running.
Or with a bit more work, you can set up X, and then whichever desktop environment
you want. Some Lunar devs are also Xfce devs, so that's usually well supported. One
dev updates KDE almost as soon as each new version comes out. GNOME is there
too, but it is not as well supported because there is no dedicated dev looking affter it.
Other lightweight window managers are available.
Of course, you won't see regular ISO releases like some of the more mainstream
distros because there is a rolling update of the package repository (or "moonbase").
Many of the key packages are updated within a couple of days of their release.
And obviously because it's a source based distro you will need to spend some time
in compiling packages as you install them.
The package management system is written in bash, and the various files that deal
with download, dependencies, building, etc are all editable by the user. So if the user
needs to create or update a package to get it to work on a particular system that is
quite easy to do. Ordinary users can also submit their new or updated packages to
the developers for inclusion in the main system. You have total flexibility and control!
Some have described Lunar as "an automated Linux From Scratch", and while others
have said that it is "a simplified Gentoo without the USE flags", but I haven't used either.
Lunar is alive and well, despite the fact that the forums are closed [due to spammers].
The documentation on the Wiki is minimal because it only describes issues specific to
Lunar and there are more comprehensive sites about general Linux on the internet.
The development team is small, and can usually be found on the #lunar IRC channel.
It would be brilliant if we could attract some more developers to share the work, but we aren't interested in market share or world domination - we do it for the fun.
87 • Pardus 2011 (by Untitled on 2011-01-27 08:50:01 GMT from Germany)
I'm very impressed with Pardus 2011, especially since it's the first distro I've tried that manages to correctly handle my (apparently) unusual setup: a docked laptop with two external screens. Until now all distributions identified the DVI screen as having the same resolution as the laptop's (disabled when docked) LCD, which caused the DVI screen to be unusable, unless I disconnected and reconnected it. Until now I had to use the proprietary drivers from AMD, but finally I can use the open source drivers. I know it could be that the drivers themselves were fixed, but I'm still giving Pardus the credit of being the first to work for me.
There are other impressive things about Pardus. Trying to run Kate from Krunner isn't possible since it's not installed, but instead of just ignoring you, Pardus actually offers to install the missing packages for you.
Previously my problem with Pardus was that it was missing a lot of packages, it seems to be better, but I'll have to see if everything I need for my daily work is available now before I decide whether I keep it this time.
88 • Re # 82 (by nobody on 2011-01-27 09:39:35 GMT from Canada)
Thnx - how the crazy whirled spins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unix_utilities
Web searches generally work - IF the query is revised
LOL :) That time, both Google and my patience timed out
I would have presumed tar was one of the very first Unix (perhaps version one?) "tools" such as ls, cd, cp
Hard drives were rare/very expensive in those days- Tapes were the norm
Who could have imagined such frivolous pursuits of fellas wanting to play a game - not on huge crude main-frames:
Would culminate in the widest accepted enterprise O/system !
Along that line of thought, what if master - Gates had stayed in school, instead of aspiring to....achieve the "American dream"
Dangers of research - distractions (AKA -Why I seldom ever find a word in a dictionary)
For portability, Unix was re-coded in C - hmmm, then when did C originate
http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Programming_language_timeline/
So now I know much more than wanted - but everything seems stuck
in @!!## tar -balls
89 • switching to IPv6 sounds like a major entrprise (by SileNT on 2011-01-27 11:12:13 GMT from Germany)
Think about all home routers, modems, wireless devices which need to be replaced...
90 • @81 (by fernbap on 2011-01-27 12:05:24 GMT from Portugal)
"Niether comment 65 and 79 is correct, for most probably written by young guys, who had not seen the evolution of Linux distros."
If you want to talk about history, please go ahead, but what does that have to do with what Linux is now? I learned tar from SCO Unix System V.
Also, saying that something is not correct without saying anything about why it is not correct, is what i consider a useless statement, specially in a public place where you are supposed to back your claims with something and those that read the comments are supposed to learn something.
Saying that tarballs suck is the same as saying that zip sucks. Means nothing. It's what's inside that matters.
obviously, developers distribute their work in tarballs. It's up to the distro maintainers to decide to use or not use their work and make or not the pre-compiled installable packages. That doesn't affect the normal linux users at all.
91 • @90 (by Chdslv on 2011-01-27 12:14:31 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Read line carefully!
I am quite at home with tar and zip too!
Take care!
92 • amazing freedom :) (by meanpt on 2011-01-27 12:19:42 GMT from Portugal)
It seems android 3.0 will be launched exclusively with the motorola xoom and be held back for the other manufacturers, until an exclusivity period expires. :) This could be good for other linuxes targeting the tablet market :) ... crazy unregulated world we're leaving in, again ...
93 • @88 (by jake on 2011-01-27 13:00:46 GMT from United States)
nobody wondered: "when did C originate"
My Guinness&coffee-stained, autographed by ken & dmr, first edition of K&R says 1978, but I think C had been around for four or five years prior to that.
It's in a glass display case here in the office, next to my signed-by-John "Lions' Commentary", my nano-second, my wet-ink EWD, an Apple-1, several early Intel CPUs, and raw silicon from the ill-fated Trilliam "system-on-a-chip" (amongst other memorabilia). I'm not a computer-guru junkie, I just happen to have been in the wrong place at the wrong time most of my adult life :-)
94 • DW donation (by Osoloco on 2011-01-27 13:36:36 GMT from Ecuador)
I will like to suggest GIMP for a future donation from DistroWatch, in order to help this outstanding project to promptly achieve the 2.8 version.
Just in case their donation page is: http://www.gimp.org/donating/
Regards.
95 • Re # 93 (by nobody on 2011-01-27 14:33:30 GMT from Canada)
Jake - that pretty much confirms the alphabetical-list "link" in posted URL
I managed to totally avoid computers until ' 94 - then decided anything so pervasive in our lives, should be looked at
My good friend, a master-machinist, worked on the Avro-Arrow project
After moving to B.C. he retired when CAD tooling became De-Facto
for machine shops
Scary to think present day war planes are so unstable they would not fly w/out
.computer guidance
I hate the need to rely on my car's programs for fuel injection & engine sensors to behave
I often went solo deep into B.C.'s seldom trodden wilderness,
fishing. hunting or plain old wandering
NEVER would I depend on computer control of any vehicle under those conditions
Every day we hear of people getting into danger when their vehicle breaks down-
this while still close to major cities, paved highways
They are travelling safely (they think) encased in an artificial environment
Car stops, step out - hello real world ?
Worse, they often are incapable of fending for themselves - skill sets or mental
attitudes
Nature may be beautiful - always fascinating - seldom tolerant of mistakes
Sort of like operating systems, no ?
96 • Linux XP (by Stephen Green on 2011-01-27 15:29:10 GMT from United States)
Hey you guys paying any attention here, your listing of something called Linux XP is actually only a thirty day distro unless you buy it. You get snookered along doing a long and
tedious download install without any clue about its usability until you actually start using
the OS. Not fair, not fair at all. You guys probably don't care either becuase you continue
to foist this thing on users who are not expecting this to occur, perhaps you should have a separate listing for non-free or free to use for thirty days only. If you know what I mean.
Its stuff like this that turns people off.
Deception leaves a bad taste. Mark Twain didn't say this, Stephen Green did.
97 • RE:96 Look before you leap. (by Eddie on 2011-01-27 16:05:59 GMT from United States)
If you would have looked over the reviews and wikipedia information, (links located at Distrowatch), then you have seen that it is a paid distro that you can only use 30 days for free. May you need to pay a little attention to what you are doing. The bad taste was of your own doing.
98 • LibreOffice Cloud (by Tom on 2011-01-27 17:48:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :)
Did anyone know about the development of this?
http://www.libreofficeportable.org/
http://portableapps.com/LibreOfficePortable
From their press-release
"A fully open source and free platform, it works on any portable storage device (USB flash drive, iPod, memory card, portable hard drive, etc) or cloud drive and lets you carry your favorite desktop software with you and use it on any computer."
This would seem to take Cloud computing to a new level and seems to deal with most of my worries about Cloud apps. I think i will be sticking my my trusty usb-stick and a full install of a distro but it is nice to have options!
Regards from Tom :)
99 • @77/OSes (by #4/44/73 on 2011-01-27 17:51:14 GMT from United States)
I was referring primarily to the fact that the Linux kernel becomes an OS with certain tools like GNU added, tools which have their equivalents already supplied in BSD by default. The complaints about being disjointed in this forum came from #65s apparent dislike of things like RPM and DEB files coexisting on the same PC platform, the Linux kernel with those pesky tools that RMS keeps bringing up. Of course there is also Google Android with the Linux kernel which is another kind of Linux OS altogether, but the myriad of pieces that constitute a Linux based PC OS seems to bother some people even before other variants like droid are considered. I for one don't subscribe to the "all Linux distro developers combined would be unstoppable" theory that some seem to have. I just hope that enough of the right projects reach critical mass with out becoming to bloated and bureaucratic to truly innovate and compete. I think that possibility is the real power of Linux in comparison to other operating systems, all options being on the table with lots of groups looking at things in different ways. I think there are several (gnu/)Linux OS distros, (note the phrasing Chdlsv), that can stand on their own as legitimate competitors to other OSes in the PC arena without creating some giant Linux cabal. I also like the fact that if there is a security issue with one distro mine may be completely unaffected. Anyhow, Linux definitely gets a gold star for flexibility and innovation in my book even if it lacks some other virtues that most BSDs have.
100 • weird LiveCd session (by Tom on 2011-01-27 17:55:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi again :)
I am halfway through booting into a LiveCd of Ubuntu. At the stage where you choose between "Try Ubuntu" and "Install ..." it offers to let you see the release notes. These open in Firefox which i am now using to surf even though the distro has not completely booted. I have heard that some bioses are heading this way but it's the first time i have noticed something like this. Presumably other distros have offered this before, does anyone know which ones? There are other things i can do, such as mess around with the sound and network connections, but not much else.
I think it is preventing me from booting further but it is difficult to tell on this crumbling heap of hardware at work! (Hopefully my boss won't read this thread!)
Regards from Tom :)
101 • @96 Stephen Green (by Tom on 2011-01-27 18:02:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :)
I don't foist that distro on anyone. Hopefully within the 30days people realise there are other alternatives that are better supported and move to them instead. Changing between 1 distro and another is a LOT less tough than moving from Windows to Linux in the first place. However i have not even tried Linux Xp so i don't know if it simulates the Windows file&folder structure or puts everything in WINE or what so maybe it is another wrench
My suggestion is "Try Ubuntu now"
Anyway, good luck and regards from Tom :)
102 • Linux XP (by Jesse on 2011-01-27 18:33:36 GMT from Canada)
Re: 96, 97:
One doesn't need to go as far as the Wikipedia page or reviews. The DistroWatch entry on Linux XP states that the distribution is not free. There's no deception here, you didn't bother to look at the price tag. Don't blame others for your unwillingness to read the information provided.
103 • Re: 98 • "Cloudy" computing (by ASD on 2011-01-27 19:20:52 GMT from Denmark)
This is not actually cloud computing. It's a Windows-based portable version of the office suite formerly known as OpenOffice that will run off of a USB key, so you are using a local application that can be carried from computer to computer. I use a number of portable apps (also check out http://portablefreeware.com). I've developed what I call a "cloudy" computer system. I've installed - really just copied - the portable apps on my office computer. At the end of the day, I use cwRsync (a Windows implementation of rsync) to update my cheap Debian VPS (check out http://www.lowendbox.com). When I get home, I use cwRsync to update the programs on my home computer. I don't have to carry an easily lost or broken USB drive, and my data is routinely backed up. I'm also able to use the portable apps I like (FireFox, ThunderBird, EssentialPIM, etc.) and not the slow, watered-down apps Google offers.
104 • not Cloud (by Tom on 2011-01-27 20:30:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ok, so you don't boot of the usb-stick or cloud, just file-browse to where the app is stored and double-click on the .exe file. No data or anything gets left on the computer because the usb-stick or cloud keeps the log-files, settings and tmp files all on the usb-stick or cloud.
Presumably if you have to configure it for a particular printer or something then it remembers that particular configuration at the next computer and you just have to avoid keeping the same default if you use a different machine.
This does still sound pretty awesome although a bit less so than i first thought. It might be great at work where people are not allowed to install anything, or in internet-cafes. I guess i need to test this at work and then check in an internet cafe.
The problem with my works machine is that it has such tiny ram and is so badly fragmented that Windows cannot really cope. Booting into even a full Ubuntu on a usb-stick gives me a radically faster desktop experience, and allows me to install any programs i want. This portable thing solves a lot of problems especially where rebooting is not allowed but doesn't give me everything i want lol
Regards from
Tom :)
105 • Debian-style knobs (by Dick on 2011-01-27 21:27:57 GMT from Canada)
lol, I was looking for knobs for my new kitchen cabinets and saw these at the local Lee Valley hardware store. Too bad they don't go with my cupboards...
http://www.leevalley.com/en/hardware/page.aspx?cat=3,43520,43521,43541,46330&p=46330
106 • Unity Desktop (by Harry on 2011-01-27 23:18:10 GMT from Canada)
Having used both regular and widescreen monitors, I surprisingly find I like the old-style aspect ratio over the newer widescreen. Most widescreens are too wide for regular activities like we browsing anyways. So the Unity desktop seems like a good idea to take up some of that crapola space on the sides.
107 • @99 (by Chdslv on 2011-01-28 06:02:36 GMT from Sri Lanka)
There is NO apparent dislike to .deb or.rpm, or whatever. I sometimes think that the "native" English speakers don't really read what's written.
What I was saying, how about one method, so there won't be this much confusion and people in the world, in other words, end-users will understand and try and stay with Linux. (We talk about Linux here, not BSD, for BSD distros are too large.)
Anyway, Linux is not for only geeks and semi-geeks!
Some here have been writing about Distros and their children..and some had mentioned Puppy Linux.
May I ask you guys to try Puppy Linux 5.2 for one week, without touching your "main" distro? You can either install it into a flash key or to your hard drive. How about trying Puppy for one week (7days) and write about your experiences?
Take care!
108 • Re: 107 (by jake on 2011-01-28 06:32:44 GMT from United States)
"(We talk about Linux here, not BSD, for BSD distros are too large.) "
You are misinformed and/or confused and/or trolling (badly).
Seems to me you were planning on keeping quiet for the rest of the week. IMNECTHO, you should take your own advice. Read. Learn. Then comment. Should be a law.
::sighs::
109 • @108 (by Chdslv on 2011-01-28 09:32:00 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Jake, try PC-BSD and install some software in it, Ok? 40 years, eh?
110 • @108 (by Chdslv on 2011-01-28 09:37:55 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Misinformed, Jake?
Remember...you said that Linux is a distro...And you have been playing with tar for ~40 years...
Trolling? Oh, come on Jake...you too love to read DW and comment, don't you? Of course, Jake there should be a law, for people, who boasts and don't really know what is Linux!
40 years?
111 • non-geeks (by Tom on 2011-01-28 11:39:42 GMT from United Kingdom)
Non-geeks seem to find it easier to switch from Windows to Linux than geeks ime. People who have not established bad-habits don't have to break them before just doing stuff.
Regards from Tom :)
112 • History. (by jake on 2011-01-28 11:45:48 GMT from United States)
History (noun); Something the Nintendo Generation seems to believe can be saved at any given point, and then reverted to after failure ... See also: "Do over", "Religion", and "International Politics".
Chdslv: Yes. I have about 40 years of UNIX[tm] experience (I got to Berkeley roughly when ken did). But only 30 years of `tar`. I typoed. Please see above (#82). So shoot me. And technically, there is a distro that can be thought of logically as "Linux". Again, see above (#83).
You can try to learn, or you can continue to flail about. No skin off my teeth.
113 • deb vs. rpm vs. tar business (by B. Good on 2011-01-28 13:38:05 GMT from United States)
The idea of combining all packaging systems down to one common standard is a really good idea but it's about 10 years too late in coming. Besides, the progression of Linux is moving along quite nicely as it already is. It's like any situation in a marketplace environment...eventually someone will break away from the pack and dominate. The current front runner is Ubuntu (deb). Rightfully so in my opinion, but, hey, I'm biased. If Ubuntu stumbles (say for instance with this switch to Unity...bad idea IMO) and starts to fall in popularity then someone else will step up to fill the void. Maybe Fedora (rpm)...maybe someone else will break away and become the new darling. Who knows. All I can say is Linux is making great strides into the general public as far as operating systems go. Slow, I grant you, but I see it more as a snowball down a mountain.
Later...
114 • TurnKey Linux needs a review! (by Simone on 2011-01-28 15:42:46 GMT from Italy)
Hello guys!
As a web designer/developer and an open-source/free-software lover I must say TurnKeyLinux idea rocks!!!
Actually I was thinking about developing something similar on my own ...but you know how things go... no time, no money for now.
Actually I'm happy to see I'm no the only one with this idea in mind :D
What about a review of this distro (should we call it a distro?)
The concept behind their various appliances is great!
People needs to know about it!!!
115 • dragora (by leers on 2011-01-28 18:26:03 GMT from United States)
Here are two links that mirror the most recent dragora isos:
http://dragora.hamann.com.ar/
http://gnulinuxlibre.net/wp-content/uploads/mirror/dragora/
I found them on the downloads page of dragora's website. You might consider giving it another shot, as I'm pretty sure they've fleshed out the default install a bit. I'll get it up and running tonight and post back as to whether there is an X environment included.
116 • That will be the day ! Maybe? (by RollMeAway on 2011-01-28 20:22:11 GMT from United States)
Linux Vendors Teaming Up For An App Store
"Toward that end, developers from Red Hat, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, openSUSE, Mandriva and Mageia met recently at the SUSE office in Nürnberg, Germany, and discussed ways to build a common application installer API and infrastructure. They've now agreed on an architecture and "will work in the next few months to bring this to all major distributions," Karlitschek wrote."
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/218010/linux_vendors_teaming_up_for_an_app_store.html
Using PackageKit, OH NO!
117 • @116 RollMeAway (by Tom on 2011-01-28 21:58:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
So that means another new packaging system then? Committees that arrive at "to build a common ..." tend to go off and create another new thing that not everyone accepts.
Say people from 2 projects; A & B decide to develop from a 3rd C then if we are lucky we get A, B & C still being actively developed along with the new off-shoot D. But people from A and B might have different ideas and ideals so often we get F & G. Then people from C get on-board giving us H, I, J & K and probably some extra splinter group L. So, a project to reduce the number of alternatives from 2 down to 1 usually ends up with about 9 new ones.
This could be fun :)
Regards from
Tom :)
118 • E (by Tom on 2011-01-28 22:01:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
We don't talk about E. It seemed a good plan but it's being hushed up in embarrassment. People tip-toe around it in case the fanboys start.
119 • Definition of "based on" and the origins of Puppy (by imnotrich on 2011-01-28 22:50:12 GMT from Mexico)
While it may be true that early versions/iterations of Puppy were not based on any other distro, the fact remains that Ubuntu and Puppy are now related.
The current version of Puppy is Lucid. There's a reason the developers named Puppy after Lucid.
Lucid Puppy uses Ubuntu repos.
Lucid Puppy suffers many of the same bugs that bug Ubuntu.
Taken from Puppy's own website:
"Lucid Puppy 5.2 is a Puppy through and through. What that means is that the *architecture* is pure Puppy--it just happens to be that many of the building materials (applications, utilities, libraries) are Ubuntu binaries."
Ok, so the building blocks are Ubuntu but people continue the lu-dicrous claim that Lucid Puppy is not based on Ubuntu.
This twist of semantics is beyond my limited understanding of the English language. Barry K. is a genius and his earlier works should qualify him for the Nobel Prize. But Lucid Puppy is no longer independent when they borrow from another distro as far as I'm concerned.
120 • RE: 116 (by Landor on 2011-01-29 01:06:36 GMT from Canada)
All I see this doing is limiting innovation of the other distributions. We've seen what limitation does to other operating systems. Now, for their userbase, said distributions will be locked-in to a specific application.
Not only that, they'll be clones. People complain that some distributions do not offer much over their upstream parent (if they have one). This will further grey over the lines that define the differences now between distinctly different flavours, such as Red Hat, Fedora, Mandriva, etc, etc.
That's exactly what the distributions need to survive, a good white washing, so they all look nice and generic.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
121 • New package API (by Jesse on 2011-01-29 02:05:57 GMT from Canada)
It appears no one commenting has actually read the article on the concept of the new Linux package API system. It's not so much about changing package formats or getting everyone to use the same repository. It's about offering a way for users to search, install and manage software in a consistent manner across the mainstream distros. There's an article that explains it better, with comments from the developers, here:
http://www.muktware.com/a/1/4/26/2011/709
122 • RE: 121 (by Landor on 2011-01-29 03:59:33 GMT from Canada)
You must have mistaken the meaning of my comment. It's quite easy given the medium, as we've all learned from time to time.
To your comment though, that's exactly what my post was in reference to. "A consistent manner across the mainstream distributions". Clones, whitewashed, innovation compromised for the good of the "product's usage".
Actually, from the sounds of it, it's not really white washed, brown washed, or wait, that's purple now no?
I've watched a lot in regard to Shuttleworth and Canonical and although I already knew the bottom line was his main goal, I didn't know how much until the last year. It's funny how easily he got everyone to believe in his goals for the greater good too. Now he's even got other distributions goose steppin' to his will.
Thankfully with Debian at the least, if this does come to fruition(here's hoping it doesn't), it'll be years before they implement it in a release.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
123 • Re:121 (by jake on 2011-01-29 04:56:56 GMT from United States)
tarballs are really where it's at, at least for the cognizant.
Wrapping them into a single-file downloadable script that upon clicking, does dependency checking and prompts the user for dependency issues and installation destination before compiling and installing is really the holy grail.
Before you comment that "the masses" will never go for that, consider DLL-hell, and video v.s. printer issues (amongst other things), on the platform from Redmond, which most of the planet happily puts up with. Now consider Apple's answer to the problem ... On what is, in essence, BSD.
Think about it. There is absolutely zero reason for multiple variations of installation procedures ... and the bottom-line is tarballs. People who come up with alternates are only trying for product lock-in.
124 • New package API (by RollMeAway on 2011-01-29 05:05:06 GMT from United States)
Here is a wiki with a graphic overview:
http://distributions.freedesktop.org/wiki/AppStream/Implementation
It appears the kde devs are looking for ways to use the akonadi databases they have been generating (and gnome quietly is doing the same.), on all users desktops.
Combine these with what the facebook crowd THINKS (oxymoron !) will determine the popularity of applications.
The interface to these packages will be with PackageKit, which Jesse properly characterized in one of his reviews this week.
I'm sure there is a growing group of newcomers that will appreciate such a thing.
Kind of disturbing isn't it?
125 • The masses, meaning the end user... (by Chdslv on 2011-01-29 09:34:38 GMT from Sri Lanka)
@ 123
Jake, the people, who use the Redmond stuff don't even know what is a dll...one might say that 50% those users had ever downloaded a software and installed them, but are just users of the keyboard, mouse and the monitor...They may know how to make business using the computer, but not know how to install a program...and that's the idea..give the end user a workable solution...I know many people in Asia, Canada and Europe, who are using the Redmond stuff, who had never installed a software program and don't even want to know how to...if something goes wrong they'd ask someone, who knows to correct it...
Well, all the drivers don't know how to change a flat tire...
it would be good for all of us, if Linux stops being a tool for geeks and semi-geeks, but for all of us, including my grandma!
Btw, you cannot know about tar 30 years ago, for you write like a young man...English language, eh?
126 • contender for DW?? (by Tom on 2011-01-29 18:52:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
Usually when i find sites listing distros they are flashy and fancy but woefully inadequate and i almost feel compelled to write to them to ask if they would rather have a complete and up-to-date list instead and then point them to DW.
LWN seem to have almost as many distros listed as DW
http://lwn.net/Distributions/
DW scores more highly because of all DW's flashy fancy features!
Regards from
Tom :)
127 • Standard - bearers ? (by Nobody on 2011-01-29 19:33:56 GMT from Canada)
Jesse - so you made an in-depth anlysis of the proposed new API approach
Carefully pondered all alternatives, presented your readers with an essence of facts
Or passed it on as an item of interest - ala yet another "in-depth" one-hour-of-distro-use - review ?
On the surface - shiny but hardly new, 'IT" is dependent on an assumption of accord unlikely to be attained
More probably, any aggreement would be yet another loose alliance, w/breast- beating calls of "ISO standard"
Any stance is often justly viewed with suspicions - vested interests are seldom revealled
But that only one jaded view - of more interest, one might be forgiven for wondering
- where does this holy-grail quest stem - a loathing of what ?
Perhaps as it sounds, a near religous fervor for universal one-ness.
For some, nature must be amoral or at very least, amnbiguous
AFter all, bio-diversity as the corner-stone of life's continued evolution -
is rather messy and "unmanagable" - With heavy stress on the man part
Jake - you rather surprise me. you know the limitations of tarballs
Concatenation of files does NOT constitute a package Mgt system.
The OsX (BSD) statement is incomplete - what was the message
"Ports" is merely an alternative to other Mgt sytems
Which . BTW - was developed to accomodate a user's fine-grained "sources" manipulations
Zero reason for variations - see above - then ponder WHY any deviance occurs
In example, WHOSE... "standard" SAE, metric,
Both are addressing known physical, manufacturing demands, realities
Concurrent development, global disparate approaches - who cares
Who then has the RIGHT to state - xxx is all anyone "Needs"
(Porridge is good for you - eat it and shut up ?)
If developsers adopted that attitude, you would STILL be in a frock,
but dissecting frogs with univsity grants
No fundings for agreed-upon standardisations of fully matured computer API calls
Chdslv - where DO you get your definitive numbers - the same place that told you how,
let alone - WHY I or anyone else - uses linux, M/Soft, whatever.
As for what is "good for all of us" - please stop categorising that which you have little grasp
If any wishes to disagree, fine - but be prepared to explain your rationale
(geeky - hey-sus key ripes.... if you wish to disparage, at least TRY to be original)
Thnx
128 • PackageKit (by Anonymous on 2011-01-29 21:20:32 GMT from United States)
After reading the above links, I am relieved to see that it is more of a tool to control an already existing package system, not to replace any.
I myself use only Aptitude simply because it is the only system on Debian that I have found to actually keep track of automatic or manual (I change their flags to auto) dependencies.
This means that when I remove a package from my system, Aptitude will also remove the things which came in as needed automatic dependencies.
I have it set to stop after every major operation. This allows me to see the list of things it will remove and then I can either allow it to go ahead, or stop and keep some packages, or change the delete flag to purge completely.
This really helps to keep cruft or unused packages from taking up space.
I would use Synaptic if it only had this capability, I don't believe it does.
I also do not run Dbus.
As stated on:
http://www.packagekit.org/pk-intro.html
"Formally, PackageKit is a D-Bus abstraction layer that allows the session user to manage packages in a secure way using a cross-distro, cross-architecture API."
So if I have read correctly; PackageKit is an interface to existing systems trying to make it easier for (new)users to get applications set up on their computers.
It is not a replacement or mandatory new method. All old packaging systems will still exist and still be doing the actual package management.
Thanks for the insight, and thanks for DWW.
129 • RE: 15-49 and some odds and ends (by Landor on 2011-01-30 01:20:25 GMT from Canada)
First thing, I want to clarify a point I made about Shuttleworth/Canonical, and his goals(See 122). It's a simple point too, but I'm guessing many won't really get it. The whole driving force for Ubuntu in our community has been brand recognition for reaching out into profitable markets, nothing more.
Quite some time ago I spoke of people using one of the bigger distributions as to promote FLOSS usage by something that has a driving force. I spoke of Ubuntu for that, and that a friend of mine argued that point with me and made me see his point about it. It's changed now. I've even discussed the above with him and he has to agree that over the last year it's become obvious the direction and goals behind the drive of Ubuntu have very little to do with FLOSS and its community.
#15
As I stated in my last post here this week, things can easily be misunderstood given the medium in which their posted. But, in regard to being mean...
I noticed (last week maybe?) recently you asked that Ladislav change his mind about Bodhi, and against my previous statement in my blog post ( http://landorsplace.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/not-so-busy-with-bodhi/ ) that I wouldn't even look at it again based on the developer's response to my quick review of it, I did indeed look at it again. The very first thing that happened, it still wouldn't boot to a proper menu. He's had months to fix it, and has all the time in the world to mess with artwork and the like and still couldn't fix how it boots? Seems to me he probably doesn't know how. It's not that hard either, nor am I going to explain how to do it. If he's developing a distribution and wants to be ignorant and ill in his response to criticism, on both points, he should learn to deal with the issues himself. That said, I did boot to the desktop and I found it kind of ironic that a couple of the key points which he was most upset about that someone using his distribution should fix on their own, he fixed. That tells me he knew how it should be fixed and wasn't willing to take responsibility for what was obviously a development issue at the time. I didn't look any further into the distribution, I had no need. It's far from fixed, the menus are still messed up, booting isn't cohesive, yet woohoo, it's got new artwork. Enough said in my opinion.
---
It's nice to see a couple old faces/names return to DWW this week, and the same week in fact. :)
Mark South: I have to agree with gnomic on this, you've been outspoken before, I don't see any reason to not just come right out with what you were obviously implying. It's nice seeing you again though, sadly it had to do with Puppy to see a post from you.
I noticed people talking about seeing distributions on computers in stores. Jesse (maybe) said he hasn't seen any (I think, I'm not going back to look) A growing chain in Ontario, Canada called Canada Computers (good deals at times) showcases a distribution on full row of barebones systems in-store (at least one of the two in my city). I talked to the guy as I watched him install Ubuntu 10.10 on one. He told me that they don't promote it, it's only to have something on the system for people to get a feel for how the system performs, and to let them check out how the monitors they're selling look too. I found that kind of fitting, Canada Computers, Ubuntu, both only looking out for their bottom lines.
I keep finding myself enjoying my Gentoo and Debian installs on the netbook a lot. So much that I'm going to be using both on my main system very shortly. I'll most likely return to Gentoo as my main distribution (which is fairly easy to make totally FLOSS as well) and have Debian around for when I want to mess around testing something out quickly. I really don't like where the community is headed, nor the views of the community in general. It's time to ease back into the comfortable chair that I know so well.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
130 • Linux in stores (by Jesse on 2011-01-30 01:38:33 GMT from Canada)
>> "I noticed people talking about seeing distributions on computers in stores. Jesse (maybe) said he hasn't seen any"
That is entirely true, I have not encountered any retails stores that sell Linux pre-installed. There are a handful which will sell machines with operating systems, but I haven't found a physical store that deals with Linux. One manager told me they would like to, but there isn't enough demand for it. Most tell me they have no interest in offering Linux as an option, nor OS-less machines. Again, virtually no demand.
Usually I'll ask if a store offers a Linux option or, if not, a blank hard drive option. If neither I politely tell them one or the other is a requirement for me and I'll shop elsewhere. I'm hoping other Linux users do the same to demonstrate the potential market.
On a different note, I don't think it's accurate to say Ubuntu is only looking out for their bottom line. Partly because they're still in the red. And mostly because of the vast amount of money and infrastructure they're brining to the table. The donations they make to projects, the availability of Ubuntu One for all Linux users, LaunchPad, the free CD shipping, letting other distros easily and freely use their repositories, the usability testing, the ISV deals... all of these things benefit the entire Linux community, not just the folks behind Ubuntu.
131 • My criteria about Dragora GNU/Linux (by molinero on 2011-01-30 03:32:21 GMT from Mexico)
Dragora 2.0 is a development version, which implied a base for the next version (2.1);
was compiled for machines of the architecture ¡486 with optimization and introduces runit as default boot system.
Runit, is a start system that can tracing a process or daemon once it is released, something that is not present in the traditional sysvinit.
The version 2.0 is a larger version, which improved the previously written tools along with the installer.
It is true that a have little documentation, because the distribution was created entirely from scratch, which means a longer develop, in every way. Is currently being working on documentation and testings any bugs.
I recommend the use of Dragon for that realize their own experiences.
132 • "Landor @ 129 misunderstoods... (by forlin on 2011-01-30 04:25:21 GMT from Portugal)
• RE: 15......given the medium............ to being mean.
"I wouldn't even look at it again based on the developer's response to my quick review of it,"
Landor: I did read your review and the developer response to it.
It's true that its response (something like "if you don't like, don't use it") wast not correct at all. My thought was about placing a short comment at your review, only to say it did look like someone who's selling a product and places a board close to it saying "if you don't like it, don't buy :)
I ended not doing so because before it, I started writing a short comment about that distro that I posted here, and the momentum passed.
I could say much more about Bodhi, but I will not.They passed already the stage where a new distro most need DW to have its readers to get known about its existence.
In fact its the opposite. DW purpose is to show distros to bring users to both. Certainly it would not void a popular distro because some of its users don't like it.
Disclaimer: I've zero personal interest about Bodhi and all I say here are is only my opinion.
I'm just one of its users. One way or other, users will find Bodhi in case is doing ok, and they are doing well. Very well indeed. So far at their own effort with the help of the users. If you visit the site you'll see they're not even yet asking for donations, witch makes sense, as before that, they need to proof their utility to the users, and they can yet improve.
133 • @ 127, and a side-note to 125 (by jake on 2011-01-30 06:01:13 GMT from United States)
Nobody comments: "Jake - you rather surprise me. you know the limitations of tarballs"
Re-read mine. Do you know what a self-extracting archive is? You can do the same thing using scripting on Linux[1] ... Basically, a single shell script with self-contained dependency checking for the embedded, compressed tarball (or tarballs, for those who want to do a single download (or get a CD/DVD) with all the potential dependencies). If run as root, the software installs globally, if run as an ordinary user ... well, you get the drift. All so-called "installers" and "package managers" could dip into any software pool.
This way you could have a single world-wide group of mirrors with archives of software that could (in theory) run on any distro. Kinda like the Simtel UNIX[tm] and C collections in the early-late 1980s. Obviously, developers could maintain collections on their own servers, SourceForge & the like.
All you need is for all the distro developers, world-wide, to agree on this simple standard. Which isn't going to happen. Thus my "holy grail" comment.
This whole "package management" issue is the one of the basic things that is stopping wider desktop take-up of FOSS ... and in fact, in my my mind it's "unix-wars, Mk IV" ... The egos of the entire community have been shooting themselves in the foot for as long as I've been using UNIX[tm] ...
Chdslv: I don't have any idea why you are hung up on my age and background. Perhaps you should look within? With that said, it was Theodore Sturgeon[2] who commented that "90% of everything is crap" ... To which I add a corollary, to whit "Likewise, 99.99% of everything you read, see or hear on TehIntraWebTubes[tm] is crap". So statistically, by my own very admission, I am full of crap. The fact that I'm not has no bearing on this ... Believe what you like, it doesn't bother me one way or another. Again, no skin off my teeth.
[1] Ever play around with using DOS batch files feeding internally embedded assembler strings to `debug`, along with selected environment variables & command-line variables in order to create machine-specific .com files?[3] Same basic idea, only orders of magnitude more powerful ... and end-user friendly.
[2] If you don't know who Ted was, I feel very, very sorry for you. On the bright side, that can be fixed; get thee to a library.
[3] I used to do a lot of industrial control stuff ... Don't ask. It was ugly ;-)
134 • Nothing is absolutely so ? (by Nobody on 2011-01-30 07:04:09 GMT from Canada)
You man "Waldo" ?
(had to look that little tidbit up - Sturgeon I knew - not one of the better Sci-Fi authors)
You mis- quoted - (albeit not just restricted to excited_states_of.) .. is a
fondness of those residents to rewrite history
Besides you should be aware of a better known homily -
There are lies, damn lies and theon topof the heap worst of all -statistics
135 • Linux (by Chdslv on 2011-01-30 07:05:16 GMT from Sri Lanka)
@127,
50% is not a definitive number, it is 50-50...If we are talking about Redmond stuff, the end-users usually don't know anything other than using the keyboard, a mouse and the monitor. They may know how to copy and paste, and play a DVD/CD etc and surfing the net. Some don't want anything other than surfing the net. If anything goes wrong they call for help. They don't want to know how the innards of the Redmond stuff works, they only want it to just work. And they don't care much about Open source or closed source, all they want the machine to work. You don't have to believe me, ask around!
@ Jake, you do write like a young man, so you can't have this much age and you can't know enough to play with tar that long...You are talking about Atari and commodore times, pal.
136 • @135 &@136 (by jake on 2011-01-30 07:40:33 GMT from United States)
"Nothing is absolutely so ?"
No. My quote was correct, in context. I paraphrased "crap" instead of "crud", to fit more into the modern vernacular ... The world moves on. Taste in SciFi is subjective, at best, but Ted's work is still worth reading. IMO, of course.
Chdslv: Define "write like a young man". I'm seriously curious where you are going with that, because you aren't actually commenting on my content ... and I suspect you are going to piss-off the moderators. (Note to moderators: Don't nuke Chdslv's comment's for my sake ... I'm honestly curious where s/he's coming from!)
137 • @ Jake (by Ch on 2011-01-30 08:06:29 GMT from Sri Lanka)
Oh come on, Jake!
Do you think I worry, if I make someone angry. That's not my desire...Btw, I am not a she, and my actual name is known to the moderators and Chdslv is apart of my name without the vowels.
Anyway, let's get back to Linux and Open Source. I am waiting for the new DW today.
I am one of the few semi-geeks, who would love to see Linux being spoken about by everyone, even by my grandma!
Do you remember how the compact camera was called those days? A fool's box, nothing to do, just click and get your picture. Now, the whole world is full of mobiles, which does the same thing and for many a comp is just the same...some even don't know that MS Windows is an OS! Ask around, no need to believe me...Take care guys!
Number of Comments: 137
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