 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 385, 20 December 2010 |
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Welcome to this year's final issue of DistroWatch Weekly! We conclude the year 2010 with a first-look review of LinuxConsole 1.0.2010 before we highlight some of the more interesting news items from the past week, including a sensational report about an alleged 10-year old backdoor exploit in OpenBSD financed by US government's Federal Bureau of Investigations, an interview with Attachmate CEO Jeff Hawn about the future of openSUSE and SUSE Linux Enterprise, and an announcement by the Debian project that the upcoming stable release will feature a completely "free" Linux kernel. For those who have enjoyed the recent command-line tips and tricks sessions, Jesse Smith has another instalment of useful Bash one-liners. And although DistroWatch Weekly will take a break until early January, the website's news page will continue to receive updates, which should include one or two big-name distro releases before the end of the year. With wishes of enjoyable and fun-filled end-of the year holidays, we conclude with the usual - happy reading!
Content:
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
A look at LinuxConsole 1.0.2010
 The LinuxConsole distribution was my dark horse of 2009. It was a small, French Linux distro which managed to be compact, fast and included an interesting approach to software management. Aside from some translation quirks in the distro's text, I found it to be an enjoyable system to use. Fast forward about a year and I received a few e-mails informing me that a new LinuxConsole release was up on their website. This version, labelled 1.0.2010, was made available in mid-November and boasts improved module management and a new desktop in the form of LXDE. The project's website maintains a fairly simple layout with a black & white theme and six translations (Dutch, English, French, German, Italian and Portuguese). There is a small forum for requesting support, reporting bugs and making suggestions. There is a link to frequently asked questions on the menu, but at time of writing it throws up an error saying the page could not be found. The site has links providing access to the project's source code, a download page and a link to additional modules in a section of the site called the Jukebox.
We'll cover more on modules later, but the Jukebox isn't just for browsing available modules, it's also a method by which we can customize our download image. We can search through the modules by name and by category and click a link to add a given module to our custom ISO download. When we've added all the modules we want, we're given the option of downloading our image file with a regular or real-time kernel. The server puts it all together and gives us a download link. A vanilla image is about 80 MB. However, wanting the default experience, I decided to take the pre-made download, which weighed in at about 230 MB.
When the CD boots, we're shown a menu which gives us the option to run the live disc, perform an install, perform an auto-install, or perform an update. There is also a sub-menu with additional boot options, such as launching the disc with fail safe parameters. I chose to begin with testing LinuxConsole from the live environment and this is where I started running into problems. The first time around I was testing the distribution on a desktop machine (2.5 GHz CPU, 2 GB of RAM, NVIDIA video card) and I found the live disc wouldn't boot. It would chug along for a while and then come to a halt and completely lock-up. Unfortunately even fail safe mode wouldn't get me as far as a login screen. I next moved to my HP laptop (dual-core 2 GHz CPU, 3 GB of RAM, Intel video card) and found LinuxConsole would boot. However, even with the vesa video driver, my desktop environment ended up looking like a crushed kaleidoscope and was effectively unusable. After some trial and error, I gave up trying to get LinuxConsole to boot on my physical hardware and turned to working with VirtualBox.
In the virtual environment LinuxConsole loaded without any problems, asked me to select my preferred language (from a list of the six mentioned above), choose a suitable keyboard layout and then presented me with a desktop. The environment is LXDE, making for a resource-light experience. The menu bar sits at the bottom of the screen and the wallpaper is a pleasant nature shot. Once I confirmed that I had an active network connection and the distro appeared to be functioning well, I went looking for an installer. I didn't find one, not exactly. There's an application for transferring LinuxConsole to another device, but the presentation makes me think the tool is for saving LinuxConsole to a USB drive, not a local hard disk. I rebooted and went back to the original boot menu and took the installer option. The installer took a look at my virtual hard disk and reported it couldn't find a suitable partition on which to install the system, suggested I try the auto-install option and exited. Once again I returned to the boot menu and, this time, chose the auto-install option. The auto-installer took over the entire hard drive (creating a single ext4 partition and a small swap partition) and copied over its modules from the CD to the virtual machine. The entire process was quick, requiring about five minutes.
The install process doesn't include many of the normal steps (setting the time zone, creating user accounts and selecting a place for the boot loader) and so it wasn't a surprise when, with the install completed, I rebooted and was automatically logged into the desktop as root. It strikes me as a poor idea to throw the user into a desktop as the administrator without at least warning them, so one of the first things I did was set up a regular user account and put a password on the root account. Upon rebooting I found that root still logged in automatically and, further, logging out so I could switch users would cause the machine to shutdown. This strikes me as a backward practice as it effectively forces users to function as the system administrator unless they're willing to do some behind-the-scenes tinkering.
LinuxConsole 1.0.2010 - running various applications
(full image size: 343kB, resolution 1025x765 pixels)
My next surprise came when trying to run Firefox, or as it's labelled in the menu, "latest Firefox". Clicking on the Firefox icon displayed an error saying the package couldn't be downloaded. The default ISO doesn't come with Firefox, but instead includes a script to download and install the latest version of Firefox from Mozilla's servers. This same approach is taken with the Thunderbird e-mail client. When I brought up the download issue on the LinuxConsole forum, the developer quickly provided me with a fixed script and I was able to install the latest version of Firefox.
Since LinuxConsole is a small distro the application menu is sparse. There's the usual collection of apps, including a text editor, calculator, archive manager and a task monitor. We also find a file manager, image viewer, PDF viewer and the game FooBillard. There's a multimedia player, a CD burner app and a collection of configuration tools. The last category covers system management from changing the desktop's appearance, to configuring the network, to handling packages. In the background, the distro comes equipped to play mp3 files and popular video codecs. There is no Flash player installed by default, but there is a link in the menu which works much the same as the "latest Firefox" option. Selecting the Flash menu item downloads and installs the latest version of Flash on the user's machine. While running LinuxConsole I didn't find any network services operating, leaving that particular door closed.
LinuxConsole 1.0.2010 - changing system settings
(full image size: 182kB, resolution 1025x764 pixels)
Package management on LinuxConsole is a bit of a strange experience when compared with other distributions. There are two ways to approach the modules provided by the project and neither worked smoothly for me. When I clicked the "applications" link in the application menu I was told to use the command line program "lcmtool" for module management. I opened a console and ran "lcmtool" and was given a help message which let me know the program would take options to search for a package, list available packages, and either add or remove a package. All this seems straight forward enough. Where it takes an unusual turn is when searching for a specific package ("chess", for example) the search results are displayed in a GUI dialogue box, not in the console where the command was run. I soon found that asking lcmtool to list all available applications and then filtering those with grep (ie "lcmtool list | grep chess") yielded faster and cleaner results.
While the repository is fairly small, it covers a wide range of applications. There are about 270 packages, spread out over the categories Games, Audio/Video, Internet, Network, Music, Office and Drivers. Attempting to install modules resulted in a package being downloaded and then my console being filled with linking errors, after which I found the module hadn't installed. Going to the LinuxConsole website and manually downloading modules worked a little better. Opening a file browser window and double-clicking on a downloaded module would cause the module to be installed. Whether the module would run or not post-install was hit or miss. Some modules refused to run unless launched from the console, others would run sometimes or fail, regardless of how they were launched.
Updates are handled by a script called "liveupdate", which contacts the LinuxConsole server, pulls down any available updates and installs them. So far as I could tell, the liveupdate script doesn't accept any parameters to filter which updates the system will get, but the few times I made use of the script It worked without any problems.
LinuxConsole 1.0.2010 - browsing available modules
(full image size: 116kB, resolution 1027x766 pixels)
Though there were certainly stumbling blocks along the way, LinuxConsole has some points in its favour. Its memory foot print is very small, using around 50 MB of RAM. LXDE is responsive and attractive for a minimal environment. I like the concept of the independent modules, even if some of them didn't always work properly. The project's greatest asset though is, without a doubt, its developer, Yann Le Doare. Any time I asked for help or posted a bug on the forum, I received a quick reply and a fix. There was a definite enthusiasm and willingness on his part to help get the system working the way I wanted it to work. That's a spirit often times lacking in other projects and I applaud him for it.
Having played with LinuxConsole for a week, I find that it's an interesting approach, but it probably isn't a good choice for home users. At least not installed locally. As a light live CD it performs well, but the requirement of downloading Firefox each time the live disc boots puts a speed bump in the road. My biggest issue was with hardware support. It's not often Linux refuses to run properly on both of my test machines leaving me to wonder where the problems lies and, to date, I haven't had time to track down the issue. I think the idea of a small distro with an ISO builder and add-on modules is a good one, but this release just didn't work gracefully for me.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Ladislav Bodnar) |
OpenBSD on FBI-sponsored backdoor allegations, Attachmate comments on future of openSUSE, Debian "Squeeze" to default to free kernel
 Several readers have emailed us about the well-publicised story concerning FBI-sponsored backdoor exploits in OpenBSD, allegedly inserted some ten years ago by two US government contractors. The Register reports: "Former government contractor Gregory Perry, who helped develop the OpenBSD crypto framework a decade ago, claims that contractors were paid to insert backdoors into OpenBSD's IPSec stack around 10 years ago. Perry recently warned the OpenBSD's Theo de Raadt of the development, years after the event, via an email that de Raadt has published in the spirit of openness. Perry said he had waited until his ten year NDA with the FBI had expired before coming forward with the claims, which remain unsupported by secondary sources. If true the allegations mean that would have an easy way to tap into supposedly secure VPN links and other technologies based on OpenBSD's crypto stack." Both of the alleged coders denied the accusations. ITworld follows up on the story: "I contacted Scott Lowe, VMware-Cisco Solutions Principal at EMC to ask if he had a comment about Perry's statement to de Raadt. Lowe quickly responded via e-mail his denial: 'Mr. Perry is mistaken. I am not, nor have I ever been, affiliated with or employed by the FBI or any other government agency. Likewise, I have not ever contributed a single line of code to OpenBSD; my advocacy is strictly due to appreciation of the project and nothing more,' Lowe replied."
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 The openSUSE project has published an interview with Jeff Hawn, chairman and CEO of Attachmate, about the future of openSUSE under the new management. This follows the recent acquisition of Novell (and openSUSE) by the Seattle-based software company. Answering a question whether Attachmate intends to shut down the openSUSE community project, Hawn replies: "No, we don’t. Attachmate intends to continue the sponsorship and collaboration with the openSUSE project. We view the openSUSE project and its extended community as an important part of the overall SUSE business and we value its contributions to the technology that forms the heart of the SUSE offerings." And what is the plan for SUSE? "We cannot speak to specifics until after close, but what we can communicate now is our intention to establish a SUSE business unit on par with the existing Attachmate and NetIQ business units. We believe that establishing SUSE as its own business unit will give greater focus and flexibility to grow within a competitive market. We view SUSE as a well regarded and proven technology in the open source and enterprise Linux community and we want to further build upon that. We intend for SUSE to continue to provide the same high quality open source technology solutions, such as SUSE Linux Enterprise Server, needed to meet users’ demands for scalability, interoperability and cost effectiveness."
In a separate development, openSUSE has "named Alan Clark as new openSUSE Board Chairman: "As you know, Michael Loeffler has left the openSUSE Board to pursue new opportunities, we are sad to see him go and wish him well. With his departure and with the upcoming Board elections, we have a desire to see a new Chairperson selected. The election rules state that the Chairperson be appointed by Novell and yesterday Markus Rex, General Manager of Novell's Open Platform Solutions, presented Alan Clark to us as the new Chairperson. As you may be aware, we have focused a significant amount of our time on the creation of an openSUSE Foundation to be independent and to be able to collect and spread funds. And Novell has been very supportive with our desire to see this come to fruition. Markus told us that one of the reasons he selected Alan is that he has a lot of expertise in setting up foundations. Alan helped to form the Open Source Development Labs (OSDL) and the Linux Foundation, as well as several other open source projects and organisations. We, along with Markus, believe that Alan’s experience and expertise will be an asset of immense value to the Board, and we welcome that as we, and Novell, partner together in forging ahead on an exciting and promising future for the openSUSE Project."
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 Interesting news from the Debian project. According to this recent official communication by Alexander Reichle-Schmehl, the distribution's upcoming stable release, version 6.0 "Squeeze", will ship with a Linux kernel that won't include any non-free firmware. This will be the default kernel. Nevertheless, an alternative kernel with non-free firmware will be made available in the "non-free" repository: "We are proud to announce that, to the best of our knowledge, all issues are solved and that we will be able to deliver a Linux kernel which is completely free, according to the Debian Free Software Guidelines (DFSG), with Debian 'Squeeze'. In accordance with the Debian Social Contract, we acknowledge that some users require the use of works that do not conform to the DFSG and that those works might include non-free firmware bits. For the time being, we have added to the 'non-free' area of our archives alternative installation images and additional packages for Debian 'Squeeze', that include non-free firmware bits needed to enable specific pieces of hardware. They are not part of Debian, they should be looked for explicitly by interested users, and we cannot support them to the same extent of free firmware as we do not have access to the corresponding source code."
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| Tips and Tricks (by Jesse Smith) |
More command-line fun
This week I'd like to cover some command line tips and tricks. There are a lot of tasks which can be completed with one or two lines and I'd like to share a handful that I've found useful.
Have you ever read a report that talked about the number of times a given word appears in a story, a script or a play? You might wonder if the report is correct about the number of times Shakespeare used the term "love" in Romeo and Juliet. There is a quick way to check. The following command will display a list of the words that appear in a given file and a count of how many times each word is used.
cat my_text_file.txt | tr -c a-zA-z '\n' | sed '/^$/d' | sort | uniq -i -c
We kick things off with the cat command and give it the name of the file we want to examine. The cat command then passes the contents of our text file to "tr". The tr command breaks up the file, putting each word on its own line, for easy access. (The '\n' after "tr" indicates we want to add newline characters to our text.) We next filter our file through the sed command, which removes any empty lines. (The ^ immediately followed by the $ mean we're looking for lines that effectively have nothing between the beginning of the line and the end. The "d" on the end of the sed command indicates we want to delete any such lines.) The list of words we have is sorted alphabetically and then passed to the "uniq" command, which performs the actual count for us. Should we want to narrow things down so we just see the count for the word "love" we can append the grep program to our command in this manner:
cat my_text_file.txt | tr -c a-zA-z '\n' | sed '/^$/d' | sort | uniq -i -c | grep -i \ love$
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At times you may be using your computer and wonder which process is using the most memory. To answer that, we can use this line to show us the top ten memory hogs on the system.
ps aux | awk '{if ((NR > 1)&&($5!=0)) print $1, $2, $3, $5, $11}' | sort -k4nr | head -n 10
The ps command will give us a list of all the processes currently running. We then filter out unwanted information, such as headers, from the output using awk. We pass the filtered data to the sort command and tell it to sort our information based on the forth column. The forth column in this case being memory usage. The "nr" at the tail of the sort command means we want to sort numbers and do so in reverse order (largest to smallest). Lastly, we use the head command to limit our results to the top ten items.
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Next up we have a command which looks a lot easier to deal with and I mention it here simply because I use it so often. This command returns us to the previous working directory.
cd -
This is a helpful shortcut if you have to frequently change between directories and find yourself performing a lot of these:
cd ~/Documents/shared/work
cd /var/log/security/samba
cd ~/Documents/shared/work
cd /var/log/security/samba
Instead you can use
cd ~/Documents/shared/work
cd /var/log/security/samba
cd -
cd -
Alternatively you can use pushd and popd, which will keep track of directories for you.
pushd .
cd /to/some/other/directory
popd
This second approach is handy because pushd can keep track of directories besides the currently working directory. Instead of using "pushd ." we can use "pushd /any/directory/we/want".
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Fans of word puzzles may appreciate this next item. The echo command can be used to display all combinations of a set of letters. For instance running
echo {a,b}{a,b}
Will output "aa ab ba bb". If we further want to see all combinations of three different letters we can use:
echo {a,c,t}{a,c,t}{a,c,t} | tr -c a-z '\n'
The above command will display all possible combinations and, with the help of the tr command, will put each possibility on its own line. This in itself probably isn't very useful. But what we can do from here is to save the output to a file. Then perform the same command and place any misspelled words in another file. This means that the file with all of the letter combinations, minus the contents of the file with misspellings, will give us a list of properly spelled words. In the following example, we save the complete list of letter combinations, then a list of letter combinations which do not spell anything. The third line uses the diff command to show us the differences between the two files. The final result is a list of words found in the system's dictionary. The awk command at the end of our third line filters out some of the extra data diff can provide which isn't useful to us in this case.
echo {a,c,t}{a,c,t}{a,c,t} | tr -c a-z '\n' > complete_list.txt
echo {a,c,t}{a,c,t}{a,c,t} | tr -c a-z '\n' | spell > misspellings.txt
diff complete_list.txt misspellings.txt | awk '{ if (! (NR % 2)) print $2}'
The above example, tries all three-letter combinations of the letters a, c and t and tells us they can be used to spell act, cat and tat. Technically you could combine this into one large command, but it would be both long and a pain to edit.
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This last example is useful in that it will take a video recording of your desktop. It's particularly helpful if you want to show someone else the exact steps you are performing. The two important parameters here are the "-s" option, which sets the screen resolution. You can either provide your desktop resolution in exact pixels, such as "-s 1024x768", or you can use a pre-defined setting, as I have below. There is a full list of presets in the ffmpeg manual page. The last parameter is the name of the file where we are going to save the video. In this case I am saving the output from my screen to a file in my home directory, called "my_video.mpg". The program will continue to record until you kill the process, so don't forget to hit Control-C when you're done, otherwise this will fill up your disk in a hurry.
ffmpeg -f x11grab -s wxga -r 25 -i :0.0 -sameq ~/my_video.mpg
This command is the odd one of this article because ffmpeg isn't a standard package across the various distributions, but it's quite handy to have.
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| Released Last Week |
Parsix GNU/Linux 3.6r1
Alan Baghumian has announced the release of Parsix GNU/Linux 3.6r1, a new revision of the Debian-based distribution for the desktop: "The first updated version of Parsix GNU/Linux 3.6 'Vinnie' is available for immediate download. This version merges all the published updates into the ISO images. Parsix now offers security updates. Vinnie ISO images are compiled using Squashfs 4.0 with LZMA compression and will fit on a blank DVD. We are back to using isolinux as CD/DVD boot loader, as GRUB 2 has issues such as booting from external USB devices. The updated Linux 2.6.32.26 kernel with improved configuration is patched using the latest TuxOnIce suspension and hibernation and Kon Kolivas's BFS patches. Improved live boot system loads the system faster and this version also ships our experimental USB installer that enables users to run Parsix from USB keys." Read the rest of the release announcement for more details.
Openwall GNU/*/Linux 3.0
Openwall GNU/*/Linux 3.0 is a small security-enhanced Linux distribution for servers, appliances, and virtual appliances. Today's release of version 3.0 marks the 10-year anniversary of the project: "I am pleased to announce that we have made a new major release of Openwall GNU/*/Linux, version 3.0. The ISO images include a live system, installable packages, the installer program, as well as full source code and the build environment. This release marks roughly 10 years of our project - development started in mid-2000, and Owl 0.1-prerelease was made public in 2001. With the 3.0 release, the Owl 2.0-stable branch is formally discontinued. We intend to proceed with further development under Owl-current and to maintain the newly-created Owl 3.0-stable branch until the next release, as usual." See the full release announcement for more information and upgrade instructions.
PCLinuxOS 2010.12
Billy "Texstar" Reynolds has announced the release of PCLinuxOS 2010.12: "PCLinuxOS 2010.12 holiday CDs are now available for KDE, GNOME, LXDE, Xfce and Enlightenment desktops featuring the latest updates from the PCLinuxOS software repository. All CDs feature Linux kernel 2.6.33.7bfs for maximum desktop performance, NVIDIA and ATI fglrx driver support, multimedia playback support for many popular formats, wireless support for many network devices, and printer support for many local and networked printer devices. 'Addlocale' allows you to convert PCLinuxOS into over 60 languages. 'GetOpenOffice' can install OpenOffice.org supporting over 100 languages. 'MyLiveCD' allows you to take a snapshot of your installation and burn it to a live CD or DVD. PCLinuxOS 'liveusb' allows you to install PCLinuxOS on a USB key disk." Here is the brief release announcement.
Tiny Core Linux 3.4
Robert Shingledecker has announced the release of Tiny Core Linux 3.4, a minimalist graphical distribution in under 11 megabytes: "Team Tiny Core is pleased to announce the release of Tiny Core 3.4. Change log: updated appsaudit multi-select updates and md5 checking; updated fluff to 0.8.5 with integrated file type and associations as well as many UI improvements; updated mnttool to show all drives and mount launch filemgr via FILEMGR env; updated mnttool to support labels and 10+ partitions; updated wallpaper gradients and color preview; updated editor for named new file argument; updated wbarconf for control of text, zoom, and icon size; updated exittc 'Exit to prompt' to be PID driven; updated wbar for fluff startup via '~'; updated fluff .desktop item for startup via '~'; updated ab2tce.sh to terminate if appbrowser is aborted by killing X...." Read the rest of the release announcement for a complete changelog.
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
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New distributions added to database
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New distributions added to waiting list
- Bittix Linux. Bittix Linux is a KNOPPIX-based live DVD with support for the Finnish language.
- HPC-Europa2 Virtual Cluster. HPC-Europa2 Virtual Cluster is a SliTaz-based live Linux DVD. It boots and runs completely from DVD providing recent tools, compilers and libraries for the development of parallel applications. Furthermore, the DVD also includes training material, videos from past virtual surgeries and reports from past HPC-Europa visitors.
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DistroWatch database summary
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 This is the final issue of DistroWatch Weekly in 2010. To all our readers who celebrate the end-of-the-year holidays we wish you a memorable festive season and an excellent and prosperous New Year. DistroWatch Weekly will return on Monday, 3 January 2010.
Ladislav Bodnar, Jesse Smith, Caitlyn Martin and Susan Linton
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Jesse's review of LinuxConsole 1.0.2010 (by Slogger on 2010-12-20 09:17:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
"poor idea to throw the user into a desktop as the administrator"
I, and as we shall doubtless see, beg to differ. Booting into a USER immediately after installation is plain stupid, there being so much configuration and personalisation still to do. Even the *butus are a dog's dinner when it comes to [su -] or [sudo] (on every command. If you aren't confident to work as root perhaps you should choose another OS? Neophytes making mistakes, being the best way to learn(!) will expect to re-install if & when they screw up.
"the idea of a small distro with an ISO builder and add-on modules is a good one"
We already have one/several mature and successful such - Puppy/Quirky/Wary/Woof!!
By-the-by, we all enjoy your reviews Jesse but the indefinite article before a vowel becomes 'an' otherwise it doesn't scan. Most languages adopt similar strategies.
2 • Backdoor in OpenBSD (by bugz on 2010-12-20 09:22:49 GMT from United States)
There's a backdoor in OpenBSD... wow... for ten years... is this really true? Hope not.
3 • Attachmate CEO interview (by Stuart on 2010-12-20 09:43:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
I found the interview with the Attachmate CEO vaguely reassuring. The SUSE developers are one of the biggest contributors to upstream (after Redhat), so if SUSE flounders it would be a huge loss to the community.
Hopefully Attachmate won't later shoot themselves in the foot the way Oracle have been doing recently.
4 • Backdoor in openBSD (by KenWeiLL on 2010-12-20 10:38:07 GMT from Philippines)
Hmmmm.... The record of "there's only 2 hole's found on openBSD" is now broken. If the backdoor is true, then there's a possibility that there are more of that, that we don't know.
Open source, ten years, and it hasn't been discovered for that long?
That's bad.
But, I still hope it's not true.
5 • Attachmate CEO interview (by Andrew on 2010-12-20 10:54:39 GMT from South Africa)
I also was pleased to see Attachmate communicating with the openSUSE community.
and Jesse thanks for the reviews. I am downloading LinuxConsole whilst typing this.
Regards
Andrew
6 • @1 (by Blue Knight on 2010-12-20 11:30:56 GMT from France)
I'm sorry but it *IS* a very bad practice and just stupid! Period. We could expect this from Windows, not from a Linux/Unix OS... Auto-connection is also bad.
7 • Asturix 3 (by Farid on 2010-12-20 11:34:05 GMT from Pakistan)
The Asturix 3 is one of the best Linux based operating system in my opinion. Only problem is that the download is different for x86_64 and i686 computers.
8 • Backdoor in OpenBSD (by Barnabyh on 2010-12-20 11:34:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
Even if it is not true it certainly brings home what is possible. Trust in open source development will never be the same again. Perhaps this was the intention.
9 • the "freedom" backdoors ... (by meanpt on 2010-12-20 11:44:29 GMT from Portugal)
And now the Chinese government, as it did with Windows, will also put anything containing "BSD" on a shelf. If the find holds true, I wonder how a supposedly free and responsible community didn't find it sooner. Again, if the find holds true, the current discussions around Android or Chrome OS are nothing, and is as bad as the wikIleaks "freedom" prosecution. I hope the WL servers are not running bsd's. Bad move.
10 • Linux console (by Saleem Khan on 2010-12-20 11:49:55 GMT from Pakistan)
Thank you Jesse Smith , This time you reviewed one of my most favourite distribution.
Linux console is DVD is a "must" item on my desk.
Regards,
11 • LinuxConsole (by Barnabyh on 2010-12-20 11:50:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
I remember when it entered Distrowatch but had since forgotten about it again. While the concept is interesting, it's not the only one utilizing modules. Thanks to this article I know now it is not an alternative currently and will give it a miss.
Another one using modules, going by their web site, is the Hadron Project http://hadronproject.org/.
Portability is major feature of Hadron. Basically Hadron is a live Linux distribution which is developed to run on USB sticks. Nevertheless, Hadron can also run on hard disk and cdrom as well.
"In our approach, the modules are file systems that are mounted to root. They are similiar to packages of other Linux distributions. But a module can include many packages. The modules are described by using XML and small Python scripts. lpms tool reads XML spec file and collects files from the host system."
Any chance of reviewing this one soon?
12 • @8 • Backdoor in OpenBSD (by Barnabyh (by meanpt on 2010-12-20 11:57:53 GMT from Portugal)
about this:
"Trust in open source development will never be the same again. Perhaps this was the intention."
I would say I wouldn't trust smaller and for geeks only communities. And I believe Linux will turn more popular on the server side. Moreover, the less "enterprise" it is, the better, as individuals do not have to sign and comply with whatsoever patriotic acts and alike, nor is their activity corrupted by those who were supposed to protect us from malicious behavior, because individuals de per se have nothing to loose on the client and financial markets side, only their freedom.
13 • RE: "Mr. Perry is mistaken" (by Secret guy on 2010-12-20 12:00:55 GMT from United States)
of course they are going to deny everything, admitting to the world that you put a backdoor in a supposedly secure OS for the FBI would not look good on your resume & ruin your career as a software developer
14 • CTKArchLive (by Saleem Khan on 2010-12-20 12:10:12 GMT from Pakistan)
I know about this distro for quite some time now , before it was added to DW distributions waiting list. I tried almost any availble arch linux forks at one stage of my computing life simply because I could not manage to install arch linux intself so i came across CTKArchLive too. But now that I have arch linux running on my system for past couple of months I wonder why do we need all these forks when we have arch linux?
No disrespect to CTKArchLive and other projects but I would like to know what "more benefits" do we get by using these forks than pure arch linux?
Regards,
15 • How many eyes on open source code? (by Al on 2010-12-20 12:14:16 GMT from Canada)
I remember reading something to the effect that one of the strengths of open source code is that many eyes review it, thus it is an infertile breeding ground for malicious code.
Yes, there is truth to this. But having worked as a coder, I also know that code reviews can miss things, even after many revisions and reviews.
In the crypto arena, I suspect it would be easier for an organization like the FBI to insert a backdoor, than it would in the desktop code base for example. Crypto relies on a lot of mathematics and theory, which I think is harder to review than the average desktop app.
In any case, it'll be a real eye-opener if these IPSec allegations prove to be true.
16 • @ 12 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-20 12:20:57 GMT from United States)
You do realize that OpenBSD's IPSEC code is used by just about everyone, right?
If you take issue with just this allegation, how do you feel about the NSA's darling SELinux?
17 • CTKArchLive (by meanpt on 2010-12-20 12:27:40 GMT from Portugal)
For a newbie like me, Arch is one of those things you need to dig through to the other end of earth to find how to install your national keyboard. That was the reason I erased archbang from my system. During the installation I found CTK wasn't different. Went to their faq and didn't find any reference to this. No problem, you don' need me and I don't like you. Installation cancelled. Next!
18 • "backdoor" in OpenBSD (by SlaxFan on 2010-12-20 12:32:49 GMT from United States)
I have more difficulty in believing the FBI could keep a secret for 10 years AND that they would have someone looking at OpenBSD 10 years ago with intent of placing a secret backdoor than thinking the alleged leaker has some weird personal agenda.
19 • @16 by Anonymous (by Anonymous on 2010-12-20 12:32:50 GMT from Portugal)
I don't use Selinux and I doubt anyone raised the same problem with selinux.
20 • Backdoors, again. Learn a little, people ... (by jake on 2010-12-20 13:02:04 GMT from United States)
Read this:
http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
The fact is that if you can't follow the tool chain at a ones & zeros level, you really have no idea if your OS is secure or not. That's ANY OS, not just BSD.
"But many eyes have read the archived source code", you bleat ...
This won't do you any good, at least if you don't have control of the tool chain ... My compiler, assembler & linker can easily leave me a backdoor in the resulting binaries, *EVEN IF* that backdoor isn't in the source code that you feed 'em. Think about it.
"If anyone bothers to read the source, I expect we'll have an answer by ::insert timeframe here::."
Again, I invite all y'all to read ken's ACM paper ... The source code is one thing, but the corner-stone binaries are another. Don't confuse the two.
The jury's still out on whether or not this one is actually out in the wild ... and every OS that we have available is equally vulnerable to this kind of thing. Don't like this concept? Don't use computers. Personally, I'm just going to carry on carrying on as I have since I first realized the possibility in the early '80s ...
21 • CTKArch live (by Neal on 2010-12-20 13:02:11 GMT from United States)
CTKArch was a pleasant surprise for me to use. It was easy to install even though it was text based but very upfront and easy to understand.
It uses Yaourt and there is plenty of good documentation for keeping the system up to date etc...It is a nice addition to DW if you are FR or EN speaking. I don't see any problem with having this in the DW database.....I found it easier to install and use over Archbang.
22 • FSF (by Tom on 2010-12-20 13:02:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
Does anyone know if the new Debian kernel adheres to the criteria of the Free Software Foundation? Is Debian already listed on their site in the tiny list of FSF-approved distros?
Also is Debian still available on the Hurd kernel or would it need an ancient version of Debian?
TinyCore seems to be going from strength to strength and it is always good to see a new release.
Regarding the alleged back-door i have to agree with 18 by SlaxFan. Perhaps the coders reported to their bosses that something was in place that really wasn't. Who knows about all the various agendas of the vaious people involved in this story, and who cares? Presumably the code gets revised from time-to-time. Given that Vista's security was the result of the NSA allegedly helping MicroSquish be less vulnerable i think we can guess just how great such a back-door would be.
Regards from
Tom :)
23 • If you can't crack it publicly discredit it (by That Dude on 2010-12-20 13:05:32 GMT from United States)
Will next year be true crypt's turn in this same FUD campaign.
How often are source code reviews done? Are the results posted?
This Arstechnica comment says exactly what I thought---"One of the basic tenets of open source software is that it is inherently safer than proprietary software because of the transparency and so many people looking at it. If the claims turn out to be true it brings into question that assumption. It may be that everyone assumed because anyone could audit it, someone else already had."
I hope this not one those "I thought you reviewed it, NO I thought you reviewed it, No I thought you did it....... and so on.
24 • Backdoor in OpenBSD (by flond on 2010-12-20 13:23:00 GMT from Brazil)
@4: ..."and it hasn't been discovered for that long? That's bad."
@8: " Trust in open source development will never be the same again. Perhaps this was the intention."
!!!
I say it different: "In this subject, open source is the unique alternative we have!" And it's so good to confirm this! For us individually -- because we have an alternative --, and for all FOS comunities, to increase their work.
There's an obvious question nobody still pointed, _____ "But then, what really happens in closed source systems?"____ Who can endorse them? Or better: who the mad risks his own name in doing this endorsement? Without opening their sources ?
(@4: After all, it isn't an absurd to suppose BSD people solved this issue 10 years ago. We must admit this possibility. Why should they come to tell us that, 'well, the US government' ... etc etc? Nonsense!)
Be it real or fiction, after these news we can suppoose all the hundreds of thousand files in each /thing-x wiil be passed through a fine sieve. Or don't?
(sorry for the wronglishs!) f
25 • Console, English and Reviews (by Jesse on 2010-12-20 13:23:05 GMT from Canada)
>> "I, and as we shall doubtless see, beg to differ. Booting into a USER immediately after installation is plain stupid, there being so much configuration and personalisation still to do."
I think you'll find that depends a lot of which distro you use. Most of the big name projects, I find, do not require a lot of "as root" configuration. Even the ones which do require more admin work can be handled by a simple "su -" at a command line. Running in a desktop environment as root is generally looked on as a big "thy shall not".
>> "By-the-by, we all enjoy your reviews Jesse but the indefinite article before a vowel becomes 'an' otherwise it doesn't scan. Most languages adopt similar strategies."
Thank you, I'm aware of the rule, though it's entirely possible I missed one. Could you point it out so we can update the page?
Strictly speaking the rule doesn't place "an" before words beginning with a vowel, it has more to do with the sound the following word makes. The word "hour" is a common example of a word requiring a leading "an" where "utopian" is lead by "a".
>> "Portability is major feature of Hadron. Basically Hadron is a live Linux distribution which is developed to run on USB sticks. Nevertheless, Hadron can also run on hard disk and cdrom as well."
I won't make any promises for a review, but I will take a look at the project. It sounds interesting.
Speaking of project suggestions,feel free to e-mail me during the next few weeks with ideas.
26 • re: RE: "Mr. Perry is mistaken" (by troll on a moose on 2010-12-20 14:31:42 GMT from United States)
> you put a backdoor in a supposedly secure OS for the FBI would not look good on your resume & ruin your career as a software developer
I didn't read anywhere that the alleged participants were patriotic volunteers.
Now, if people are going to start analyzing (not merely verifying - which is rare enough) every entry in a potential team member's opus, and eliminating everyone who's worked for the government, everyone who's worked for a government controlled (e.g. regulated) company, everyone who's worked for a company that's done government contract work, and on down the money chain, then I might consider it a career issue (just like the *GPLs).
But, as long as everyone's willing to accept the code that works (any code that works) from the lowest bidder, even being "outed" won't affect your personal bottom line (just look at the "tempest in a teapot" over uTorrent). And, (shocking!) truth be told, government contracts tend to actually throw around cash like it's worthless (go figger).
27 • wronglish (by Tom on 2010-12-20 14:58:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :) English seems a bit dull sometimes and i think the 'new' language "wronglish" could be an interesting alternative ;) The "a" or "an" rules seem to be largely made up on the spot but Jesse's rule sounded interesting too :) Is it "a historic" or "an historic" or does it depend on the gravitas of the event? Surely there are various famous people for whom it should be "a herstoric" instead?
About the back-door: does anyone who asserts that there was one actually show how to access it? Have people been seen lurking around it hoping for autographs? Has there been reported instances of it being used over the years? Has malware been exploiting it?
Regards from
Tom :)
28 • Root or User (by RayRay on 2010-12-20 15:49:57 GMT from United States)
As I am the only user on my computer the first thing I do is enable the root user login, how else can we mess around (oops, lets reinstall the distro again. Ohoh I just wiped out the MBR. Sh**ucks, messed up X, now I have to use the CL0).
Once Linux Console stabilizes I'm sure they'll boot up to a regular user. I haven't used it in a while but it looked good and worked fairly well.
29 • Root User (by Tom on 2010-12-20 15:55:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
@28 RayRay
I am sure they wont. Many distros, particularly LiveCds or Slackware (or both) ones tend to have only root user and establishing a normal user is quite challenging for noobs. I really think it should be the other way around. Most of the rest of linux desktops are designed so that noobs can't get themselves into too much trouble and can't access potentially dangerous systems until they learn how-to ;) It is somewhat bizzare about this whole issue of root-user but herding cats is very tricky ;)
Many regards from Tom :)
30 • Backdoor and CL0 (by RayRay on 2010-12-20 15:59:43 GMT from United States)
Whoops CL0 was supposed to be CL.
They put in a backdoor that was never discovered! If false they have every right to deny it, if true they won't ever have to worry about submitting a resume.
31 • Debian and English (by Jesse on 2010-12-20 16:10:00 GMT from Canada)
@Tom:
You asked about Debian being on the FSF's compliant distro list. Debian is not on the FSF's list of pure distributions. The kernel in Squeeze may be completely free software now, but the rest of the distro is not. Specifically the FSF points out that Debian has non-free repositories, which disqualifies the distro, according to the FSF. You can read more about the subject here: http://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html
As for the "an" and "a" rules, it's a bit hard to explain, but the basic rule is to check the sound of the word following the article. Strong vowel sounds at the beginning of the noun mean you use "an", other sounds require "a". Which results in an hour, a cat, a UFO, an American. Hope that helps.
32 • @27 Backdoor (by Ron on 2010-12-20 16:12:59 GMT from United States)
Yes. There is proof. My girlfriends brothers wifes aunts friends uncles second cousins husbands daughters boyfriend knew a person who worked for the FBI that verified it all.......
I love internet rumors/gossip. Doesn't take much. I personally am going to just sit back and wait for the proof. While possible, is it all probable? Maybe. but I still want the proof.
33 • No.31 (by Slogger on 2010-12-20 16:34:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
34 • Backdoor in OpenBSD (by Victor Barbicane on 2010-12-20 17:02:27 GMT from United States)
In the past the FBI and CIA have probably done some less than wise things, but to muck around with EOUSA (Courts - Lawyers - US Justice Department, and the supposed boss of FBI, well duh!
35 • OpenBSD (by Anonymous on 2010-12-20 17:21:47 GMT from United States)
If this backdoor thing proves true it will be a massive disappointment. I know that things started to get crazy in the security world around 2001, but this? How widely used is the OpenBSD code in question, and can it even be used to do anything to enhance national security? It may have more to do with inept/corrupt officials, or with some guy with a grudge than with some innate 'big brother' mentality. As others have rightly stated this needs to be verified to be believed.
Also an important Question, why does the link to the register on the OpenBSD story take you to a Fedora article?
36 • LCRAPO, Debian and stuff.... (by davemc on 2010-12-20 19:27:42 GMT from United States)
LCRAPO = LinuxConsole, runs Root as user And Proud Of it!
That about sums up my review of that "Distro". See, I didn't need all that typing space like Jesse did.
Whats the point of Debian defaulting to a "Free" kernel? They will get no love from the FSF regardless of whatever they do so long as they maintain a "nonfree" repo, so why even bother with it? Seems to me that some within the Debian Community are hell bent on on cutting off their foot to spite the toe. Reminds me of the story of Joha, the guy that reaches across the top of his head with his left hand to scratch his right ear!
37 • Debian and LC (by Jesse on 2010-12-20 20:03:33 GMT from Canada)
@37:
That was a to-the-point review. Maybe I should have gone with that and saved myself some time. I look forward to your summary of my Debian review.
Speaking of which, think you're right, going with a completely free kernel by default is shooting Debian in the foot. It certainly rules out me using it as my main machine requires non-free pieces to get everything working. I don't think this as helping them in any practical way.
38 • Is Debian shooting itself in the foot? (by Ralph on 2010-12-20 21:28:23 GMT from Canada)
@ 38 & 37 -- In all honesty I don't see Debian as necessarily shooting itself in the foot over their default linux-libre kernel, with one qualification. It really depends on how easy it is to install (with the final installer of the distribution release) the non-free repo that contains the non-free firmware. There need to be some blobs available on the install CD/DVD so, for example, laptops with wireless networking requiring blobs will be able to hook up to the non-free repo in the first place. Or you may need a blob for a functional CD player in the first place. But if you can get networking up and running then the situation is really no different from what Debian currently offers with Lenny. The default install with Lenny requires you to manually add the non-free repos to your sources.list anyway, unless you select "Expert Install". With the "Expert Install" option the installer asks you if you like to use non-free software and will install the non-free repo for you. Moreover, the expert installer asks you if you just want the drivers for the hardware that it detects on your system (and only those drivers) or everything under the sun. My guess is the final Squeeze installer will warn you of possible problems and offer to install the necessary firmware. Time will tell.
39 • Key maps in Arch & possible Hadron review (by Barnabyh on 2010-12-20 22:51:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
@17, meanpt
It's in the Arch wiki in the Beginners Guide, just look for localization or use the search box on the left. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners%27_Guide#LOCALIZATION_section
You may want to change Locale, Timezone and Keymap. Perhaps you can give it another try now?
@25.
"I won't make any promises for a review, but I will take a look at the project. It sounds interesting."
Thanks Jesse, that will do.
40 • try this one (by Anonymous on 2010-12-20 23:02:03 GMT from United States)
http://www.osnews.com/story/19731/The-25-Year-Old-UNIX-Bug
(incase anyone hasn't heard of it)
OpenBSD bug 25 years in the making. Some things do get missed.....
This hits all bsd's, even mac. So, don't be surprised if they missed another one.
41 • #40 (by jake on 2010-12-21 00:14:26 GMT from United States)
All complex code has bugs. That's not in question ... The only real question is how fast are the bugs patched, for any given "code community" (for want of a better way to put it). This particular bug is ancient history, at least in 'net time. It was patched hours (not days!) after discovery ... in the Spring of 2008.
42 • Debian.. bad move... just adds to the zelatory hype (by rec9140 on 2010-12-21 00:38:16 GMT from United States)
I am a long time supporter that only distros based on Debian are the "true way," BUT the DFSG and the "free" zealotry is not going to help Debian and/or Linux.
First, lets set this whole free definition straight.
Free = NO COST. Period, End, full stop.
Now that we have this resolved.....
Enough already!
Some companies are finally, FINALLY starting to provide what Linux needs to make their devices work on Linux. Oh... sorry... no were not going to include them in the distro because their not open source... Good move McFly! NOT! That company will likely drop support for Linux now! Yeah thats helping!
NO putting them in a repo or on an alternate CD/DVD doesn't help. What good is it if the blob I need is in a repo when its for my wireless card? ? How I am going to get it? ? ? No wired LAN available?
This especially is hurtful to converting the standard users over to the true way of Linux... They download an ISO, burn the CD/DVD and boot it up... wireless is fubar'd, maybe even the LAN doesn't work, possibly issues with something else... Reboot.... remove the CD/DVD,... fling it into the garbage.. Another potential user turned away at the gate...
This is the wrong path... and NOT being on the FSF's list of "anointed" distro's because of non open source blobs is a GOOD THING!
Lets welcome the providers of firmware into the Linux fold, and encourage them to keep developing it..... Maybe they will say.. hey we can't keep up.. but we can turn it over to the community... NO nVidia is not going to do this, as are few others.. but a little nurturing over the cold shoulder will get Linux, Debian included, further than any thing.
Thankful most Debian based downstream will correct this mistake as others do to correct Cannonicials missteps... Unity...
Lets not alienate the hardware community just as we are starting to get them to come around!
43 • @42 and his ilk (by Debianista on 2010-12-21 04:14:27 GMT from United States)
Your comments simply show your ignorance of the Debian project. Read the DFSG sometime. All Debian is doing is living up to the standard they set long ago. It's something long overdue and I applaud the effort. If you want binary blobs, a non-free kernel and/or module will be available via the aptly-named "non-free" repo.
Here's line one from the DFSG in case you missed the memo:
"1. Debian will remain 100% free
We provide the guidelines that we use to determine if a work is "free" in the document entitled "The Debian Free Software Guidelines". We promise that the Debian system and all its components will be free according to these guidelines. We will support people who create or use both free and non-free works on Debian. We will never make the system require the use of a non-free component."
If you don't want to make an effort to add the non-free components you "need" then maybe you should choose a derivative that is less conscientious. For Debian to do anything less than uphold their own charter would not be a good thing. They aren't cow-towing to the FSF, as there is no intention of shutting down the contrib and non-free repos.
Educate yourself, please.
44 • Re. 36 (by uz64 on 2010-12-21 07:23:29 GMT from United States)
"Whats the point of Debian defaulting to a "Free" kernel? They will get no love from the FSF regardless of whatever they do so long as they maintain a "nonfree" repo, so why even bother with it? Seems to me that some within the Debian Community are hell bent on on cutting off their foot to spite the toe."
Maybe it's what they believe in, and they just want to make the distro as close to *their* vision of "free software" as possible? Even if the FSF never blesses their distro. I see nothing exactly wrong with that, they are free to have their own beliefs on what makes up free software in their minds and attempt to replace or remove anything that doesn't fit it.
Sometimes I disagree on the subject of not including software that doesn't fit the DFSG, but with the kernel, I really can't say much; the only thing this can potentially make a pain in the ass is wireless card drivers, but that's a problem even with the standard Debian kernel in my case, so I see nothing missing--at least with my hardware. I've tried linux-libre-based distros in the past and they work shockingly well with *everything* that I expect to work in blob-infested distros (current and previous versions of Debian, as well as pretty much all versions of Ubuntu, openSUSE, Mandriva, etc.)
45 • Binary firmware in Debian (by Patrick on 2010-12-21 16:46:28 GMT from United States)
The basic problem is the mistaken view that firmware blobs need to have source code available if they are loaded from the kernel, for the driver to be considered free... even if the source code for the driver itself IS available. On the other hand, nobody has any problem with it if that same firmware blob is baked into the device.
In either case you have the same two black boxes: the hardware and the firmware. If the firmware black box is inside the hardware black box when it is shipped, then it is considered OK, and the open source driver is considered free. If the firmware black box is outside of the hardware black box, then it is not OK. The open source driver is not considered free, because it "touches" the icky firmware black box when it needs to stick it into the hardware black box when it is loaded, even though it is just as free and open source as the other one.
As I explained before in my article (http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20100614), this situation makes no sense. I am so glad that the upstream kernel developers don't subscribe to this nonsensical stance and are thus able to provide us with a usable Linux kernel. Otherwise hardware support in Linux would likely be still in the stone ages, like... well, like hardware support in the Hurd kernel for instance.
Now I will ask you: which kernel has had a more profound effect on the adoption of FOSS: the Linux kernel or the Hurd kernel? I think everything can draw their own conclusion on this. Firmware is a bunch of bytes that is going to be running inside your device, whether you like it or not. Where it is stored is totally irrelevant and has absolutely no effect on the openness, freedom and quality of the driver used to talk to the device.
46 • @39 • Key maps in Arch (by Barnabyh (by meanpt on 2010-12-21 17:29:06 GMT from Portugal)
:) ... I will. Many thanks. :)
47 • @45 Binary firmware in/out of the box (by Pearson on 2010-12-21 18:16:39 GMT from United States)
I've always interpreted the policy as "we may have to work around non-open firmware in the device, but we aren't going to provide it." The best analogy I can come up with (and it's a poor one) is "we'll give you the open source tools to interface with Microsoft Office but we won't include any non-free Microsoft code, even with their permission". That doesn't sound so two-sided.
48 • FUD FUD and more FUD (by Duhnonymous on 2010-12-21 18:59:27 GMT from United States)
Greg Perry intended to use his private email as a means to harass Theo de Raadt. Theo simply called his bluff. Any other conclusion is profoundly ignorant not just of how software works, but how the FBI operates.
49 • what use are those 'forks'? re #14 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-21 22:11:22 GMT from New Zealand)
'what "more benefits" do we get by using these forks than pure arch linux?'
Arch Linux doesn't have an official live CD so far as I know, so the odd project that does offer a live CD based on Arch may be useful for some people who want to see what Arch has to offer. It's also the case I think that installing Arch beyond a minimal base requires a broadband internet connection which not everybody has.
Does CTKarch actually constitute a fork? Maybe it's just a version of Arch itself? I haven't looked into CTKarch deeply enough to form a judgement on that; maybe someone from the project can tell us.
Chakra perhaps is a fork of Arch as it was initially based on Arch, but has now moved on to have its own package management system and software repositories.
50 • Why use a fork? (by Anonymous on 2010-12-22 01:07:41 GMT from United States)
Tell that to Xorg folks which used XFree86.
LibreOffice instead of OpenOffice.
wodim/genisoimage/? instead of cdrecord/mkisofs, wodim vs cdrecord, cdrkit vs cdrtools, ...
Mageia vs Mandriva vs PCLinuxOS,
the *buntu's vs Debian, vs Rest of the World
Now what do you guys think?
51 • 50 • Why use a fork? (by Anonymous on 2010-12-22 06:07:28 GMT from United States)
I prefer to use a spoon so I can get every last drop! LOL!
52 • Zorin4. One to go for! (by capri.cornus on 2010-12-22 10:21:23 GMT from Belgium)
Zorin4. It does not hide it's Debian/Ubuntu origin. It's as easy to install and work with as Mint10. It's a refinement with indeed swift speed, even with full Compiz goodies on. Everything I want to install, installs easily, and I think the software center is well done for the newbie. I don't want a Microsoft Look, I love Elegant-Gnome, I think AndroidSans is a nice font. I've had a nice morning playing and testing Zorin4, I'll certainly keep it for a while on this working horse pc. PCLOS2010.12 spent less time on it, tis and tat went wrong or was hard to get right. What a pity, what a loss of energy and time.
53 • FSF - who cares? (by mikkh on 2010-12-22 10:57:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
Do people really restrict the way they can use their PC's so they can adhere to some deluded persons principles - I want fully functioning not ideology myself.
I want (nay need) Adobe Flash and Sun Java, I want the best driver for my graphics card and I want to play DVD's and MP3's I've legally bought.
Having just looked at the accepted totally free distros list, I'm highly amused to see Blag at the top of the list - talk about turning full circle! This was a nice distro when it first came out - the acceptable (to me) face of Fedora because it *did* come with Flash, Java and LibDVDcss and all the other things normal people want
Shame on you Blag, you may have gained geeky brownie points, but I'll never use it again because plain Fedora would be better
54 • tablet handwriting recognition applications for Linux (by meanpt on 2010-12-22 11:55:25 GMT from Portugal)
Windows already come with it but so far I didn't find anything similar for Linux. In fact, only ritePen seems to be producing something similar (http://www.ritescript.com/products/ritePenVideos.aspx) but it only covers Windows systems and mobile gadgets. Does anyone knows about anything like this for Linux?
55 • Zorin4. One to go for! (by LinuxFreak on 2010-12-22 14:24:22 GMT from Germany)
I think Zorin OS 4 is a great distro, too. Personally, I'm more the arch and sorcerer type of user, but it's hard to find a distro more dedicated to windows users willing to switch over to a more user-friendly and secure platform than Zorin OS. The learning curve is much less steep, even compared to other user-friendly distros like Mint.
@capri.cornus:
Which version of PCLinuxOS 2010.12 have you tried? Gnome? KDE?
LXDE? XFCE? Enlightenment? Openbox?
I'd like to add PCLinuxOS LXDE as a lightweigt alternative to the already installed Mint 9 LXDE on a linux newbee's rather old desktop pc (PIII 1 GHz, 1 GB RAM, 40 GB HDD). I've downloaded the ISO, but I haven't installed it yet. Would you recommend any current PCLinuxOS edition to a newbee?
56 • FSF (by anonymous on 2010-12-22 14:28:20 GMT from United States)
If the FSF was really concerned about software being open they would not use cell phones, drive cars, fly on airplanes, or do any of the other things that modern humans do because the software (firmware) in most of these devices is not OSS.
If the FSF want to be free, they need to give up ALL closed source not just that which is convenient. To do that they would need to go back to the stone age which is FINE WITH ME.
The FSF are hypocrites, and will sacrifice their moral convictions for convenience Just google for pictures of RMS using a thinkpad. More closed source technology.
Use the technology that solves your problem, the license isn't that important. The FSF do not understand freedom, they will gladly force you into their view of freedom which by definition is anything but "free".
57 • Zorin (by fritz on 2010-12-22 15:35:14 GMT from United States)
Per the DistroWatch site, "Artyom Zorin has announced the release of Zorin OS 4, an easy-to-use Ubuntu-based distribution designed for Linux beginners".......Easy to use Ubuntu-based distribution?! I'm not sure how many readers feel, but as someone who finds Ubuntu fairly idiot-proof, I'm tired of seeing these "vanity" distributions show up on a site that has many better, more interesting distributions on the waiting list (and have been there for a while now). Let's move on as a community, "Ubuntu-based" is becoming a really redundant and tired theme on this site..................can we change this? There are a lot of really neat and innovative/creative projects on the waiting list, any "Ubuntu-based" distro should wait and make room for things other than a CS major's senior project.
58 • Zorin4 (by capricornus on 2010-12-22 15:49:11 GMT from Belgium)
@LinuxFreak. I tried PLLOS 2010.12 Gnome. It had trouble with twinview and a NAS-attached printer. It freezed several times. I had to switch to root several times in order to install stupid stuff. I don't know about the LXDE-version, but I experienced before, even in buntustan, that LXDE has its own problems. In the case of a PIII I wouldn't know, I'd experiment, I'd guess. I loved Wolvix for PIII's, but what is left of that OS? Perhaps Peppermint?
59 • Zorin4 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-22 16:12:49 GMT from Canada)
The zorin forum seems to have a number of unsolved posts that end in October 2010
60 • @ 50: Xorg and XFree86 (by Blue Knight on 2010-12-22 16:25:57 GMT from France)
> "Tell that to Xorg folks which used XFree86."
Well, Xorg becomes more and more crap I (maybe?) prefer, and hope distros (re)switch, XFree86...
61 • PCLOS 2010.12 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-22 16:33:21 GMT from United States)
I installed PCLOS 2010.12 on a Quad 4 ASUS M4A785TD-M EVO AM3 AMD 785G HDMI Micro motherboard with 4 gig of ram with no problems what so ever. All hardware was detected. Even setup the fglrx video driver. What a nice bonus. A very sweet setup if I must say so myself.
62 • @55/PCLOS (by #35 on 2010-12-22 17:11:07 GMT from United States)
As a PCLOS user I can say the only problems I've had were related to KDE 4 issues. I would highly recommend it for anyone who considers themselves 'computer literate'. There are a few bits here and there that might place it ever so slightly behind Mint in terms of total ease of use, but as soon as you start getting the rolling updates and realize how much longer you'll have an up to date system than the 6 month release cycle distros most would be glad to stick with it. I'd say the biggest problem in PCLOS is that the package manager isn't as nice a way to search for software as Mint and some others have, but it's worth it for me.
63 • PCLOS 2010.12 (by capricornus on 2010-12-22 18:09:42 GMT from Belgium)
I am not commenting on installing the above stuff on whatever system, but on running and finetuning it. It does not in my personal case (Intel x2) on a regular motherboard that runs other OS fine. It freezes when finetuning dualscreen. It freezes when installing/using Wine/Crossover. It freezes when finetuning other elements. The NAS-attached printer is not recognized as it should and as it would easily under Debian/Buntu/whatever. Well, a repeatingly freezing OS is NO OS for me. Again, I have to throw PCLOS away as second hand.
64 • PCLinuxOS 2010.12 (by LinuxFreak on 2010-12-22 20:47:14 GMT from Germany)
@capricornus: Thank you very much for posting your experiences with the gnome edition of PCLOS 2010.12. I've just finished installing the LXDE version and I am now a bit stuck with the installation of a scanner, an Epson Perfection 1250. The device was correctly detected by sane, but now the system segfaults as soon as I turn on the scanner and I don't even get to the desktop if I leave the scanner on and reboot the PC. This scanner has never given me any trouble under any other distribution. If I can't get it to work, I might try AntiX with ROX-Desktop, as it's also a rolling release like PCLinuxOS.
65 • My distrolet of the year (by gnomic on 2010-12-22 21:24:59 GMT from New Zealand)
It's the time of year for retrospectives on top things of the past 12 months. And I want to praise a Puppy variant called Quirky Retro, or qret. It is based on Quirky 120. My especial reason for thinking this version the bee's knees is that it can reliably suspend a couple of ThinkPad laptops and have them resume the session running as a live CD. Often I find that live CDs manage the suspend part, but when they try to come back to life it all goes terribly wrong. So top marks for Quirky Retro, the Firefox version. Praise is also due of course to Barry Kauler who made it all possible.
Also worthy of mention is a Puppy version called Fluppy which has recently become available as an iso image (previously only an image for USB stick installs). This too appears to have the magic power of suspend and awaken. It may also be thought noteworthy as the developer is a woman. From what I have seen so far Fluppy looks like nice work.
Another live CD which can suspend and resume is CTKarch. I have only had a quick look at this, but it seems to have some nice features. Until recently it was only available in French, but the developer has now provided English also.
Just in general, thanks to everyone whose efforts have helped to make Linux viable as an operating system. The world would be a poorer place without it, in my humble opinion at least.
66 • re: FSF - who cares? (by root@localhost on 2010-12-22 21:33:10 GMT from United States)
Title? Couldn't agree more!
> I want (nay need) Adobe Flash and Sun Java
That's why software (open, closed, and in between) needs to further stratify between server, desktop, laptop, handset, and in between.
Some people need (and many just want) Adobe's and Oracle's VMs. And, on laptops, netbooks, and phones, who are we (the engineers) to argue?
But, on PCs (servers, or just handling the wall warts to recharge those portable devices)? I mean, seriously? Anyone who NEEDS Java, or even just WANTS Flash, can't safely be allowed within arm's (or tongue's) reach of line level power!
67 • @LinuxFreak - scanning (by Anonymous on 2010-12-23 01:24:55 GMT from United States)
Have you tried simple-scan? BTW- they do have a support forum. Oh wait you got ran out of town the last time. :D
68 • LMDE 64bit available (by nobodyin on 2010-12-23 09:22:43 GMT from United States)
The main Irish mirror/server now has the 64 bit version of LMDE. It is dated 22 December. The updated 32 bit version is also there. It just sucks that both are still the gnome version.
69 • RE: #14 CTKArchLive (by silent on 2010-12-23 10:50:22 GMT from France)
At the beginning creating a fork and sharing it with other people is mainly about having fun. Once I created a Live USB Arch "fork" for myself with larch with all my favourite games. I really enjoyed it. As concerning Ubuntu and Fedora forks, somehow I always find that the base systems are the best. Yet one can find some good ideas that are not only backported into the base distro, but also adopted by other distros (like mintmenu). The practical use for the creators is definitely learning about linux, project management, etc. And then those who are the best in terms of managing workflow, resources and of course marketing can one day create a new distro like Suse from Slackware, Ubuntu from Debian, PCLOS from Mandriva, or in some sense (not directly) Arch from Crux, etc. So I wish good luck to all the adventurers creating a fork today or tomorrow, and for sure one of a thousand will make it to the top. Like in the evolution of any business.
70 • e17 beta 3 on slackware (by RobertD on 2010-12-23 12:56:17 GMT from United States)
Some of you may remember me asking about an e17 project for Slackware last week. LinuxFreak pointed me to a slackbuild that would have done the trick. Thank you Sir.
Instead, as per usual for me I took a couple of days reading everything on the enlightenment website and decided to compile everything from source. After 2 and a half hours I now have e17 beta3 running seemingly flawless on Slackware 13.1. The only problem I experienced was two dependencies needed to be installed before enlightenment would compile - libpng and imlib2. Outside of that everything went smooth.
This is a pretty slick window manager and appears to be light on resources.
Happy Holiday,
RobertD
71 • LinuxConsole (by mikkh on 2010-12-23 13:27:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
Boots in 4 seconds in virtualbox - wow that's impressive, if it was true!
Because of course it's not unless you own some mega machine
This PC is a 3.4 HT P4 with 3 GB of fast DDR2 RAM and a 1GB 9400 GT graphics card. Not exactly state of the art, but not an antique either. It was closer to 60 seconds before I was asked to pick a keymap etc
That's still impressive for a virtual machine (1 GB RAM, 128 MB graphics) but nothing like the 4 seconds alluded to
72 • Reflecting (by Jesse on 2010-12-23 19:47:41 GMT from Canada)
Looking back over my notes for the past year I think I've tested around fifty distributions and various small operating systems. Something that stands out in mind mind is that 2010 seemed to be a year mostly of polishing existing technology rather than pushing forward into new territory. Things like ext4 and ZFS and boot times improved, but I don't recall seeing anything that really jumped out at me as revolutionary.
My distro of the year (were I giving out a reward) would go to Linux Mint. Their LTS edition has been rock solid for me for months now on my work machine. Honourable mentions would go to Zenwalk for performance and PC-BSD for bringing a user-friendly, modular BSD to the desktop.
What was your favourite distro of 2010?
73 • Reflecting (by Fewt on 2010-12-23 20:07:02 GMT from United States)
I would have to say that my top three this year are Fuduntu, Fedora, and Mint. I'm always impressed with Clems work, and the Fedora team have built a fantastic Linux distribution.
74 • favorite distros (by Antonio on 2010-12-23 20:59:20 GMT from United States)
@72
``
What was your favourite distro of 2010?
''
To be quite honest, I really appreciated "Clonezilla-live". I helped a friend setup two labs and it simpled worked beautifully. But I am very appreciative of SystemRescueCD, GPartedLive, Fedora, Slackware & Slax-Remix(both i486 and x86_64 editions). I am hoping that the desktop patch for 2.6.38 comes in soon to see if it really makes the desktop more responsive?
Thanks
75 • Favorites ... (by jake on 2010-12-23 22:10:58 GMT from United States)
With exceptions, I'm still partial to Slackware on the desktops & BSD on the servers. It's been that way for about 16 years now. Prior to that, it was Coherent & AT&T UNIX[tm] on the desktops & BSD on the servers for around 10 years. Prior to that, it was BSD everywhere. Call me a crusty old fart, if you must :-)
I'm currently recommending Mint for folks when I'm not personally involved in the purchase of specific "known good" hardware and customizing Slackware to suit their needs. I have current examples of GParted and SystemRescueCD in my toolbox for troubleshooting, but I usually boot a Slackware CD for rescuing Windows machines from the commandline ... The fingers just know their way around it.
76 • preferred distros? (by meanpt on 2010-12-23 23:07:21 GMT from Portugal)
I'm using MADBox and Salix but I'm waiting for the Unity multitouch capability- I believe this project will or may mark the linux future.
77 • @73 (by subg on 2010-12-23 23:25:41 GMT from United States)
I agree with Jesse that the latest Mint LTS that I installed on a family members's desktop has impressed me most this year - rock solid and intuitive.
I still use paldo running gnome or xfce on a couple of regular use desktops, as it's a great up-to-the-minute rolling release. Salix was a pleasant surprise on on ald desktop this year. And an aging MirBSD proved a durable install on an old Pentiuml as a server/for fun.
78 • hot picks (by gnomic on 2010-12-24 00:06:01 GMT from New Zealand)
The slax-remix gave new life to Slax and added some value of its own.
The Salix project was noteworthy and seems to have some momentum going, should be more than a few months wonder.
PCLinuxos looks to have got its act together, certainly contrasted with past phases of fits and starts. Still has odd quirks; just yesterday I found myself having to modprobe to get a machine to identify a BCM4318 wifi interface, the gui network utility just didn't want to know. And who knew that you could combine KDE apps with an Enlightenment desktop as in the latest version of the Enlightenment iso, 2010.12? Wonderfully weird.
79 • Favorite distro of the Year (by tdockery97 on 2010-12-24 00:22:43 GMT from United States)
January 2010 marked my introduction to the world of Linux, so my observations come from fresh eyes. I have tried at least a dozen different distros this year, and have always kept the same one installed on my machine: Linux Mint. Started with 8, then 9, and now 10. All work flawlessly. But the absolute love of my Linux life is Linux Mint Debian Edition. It is a good feeling to have a distribution that will stay fresh and up-to-date over time. No more 6 month releases (except maybe for play purposes). Clem did it right with LMDE, taking solid Debian and making in friendly to use.
80 • Favorites (by pfb on 2010-12-24 01:25:31 GMT from United States)
I have been working on poor man's SSDs. I have been installing distros on USB flash drives.
So far Lubuntu works nicely on a 4Gb stick. But, Lubuntu leaves very little room for addition on this drive.
So, I got an 8Gb drive. Neither PCLOS KDE or LXDE, nor openSuSE KDE or LXDE worked very well. PCLOS (2010.12) had start up and shutdown problems, and SuSE was just plain slow (glaciers move faster). I am currently running Mandriva 2010.2 KDE on the stick and it is doing great.
So I guess my favorite distro of the year is currently Mandriva.
81 • Re: 80 Live USB stick (by hob4bit on 2010-12-24 02:02:44 GMT from China)
Hi, I found remastering a Ubuntu ISO and sticking the squashfs on a USB stick is better. No write access ensures your stick cannot be corrupted and also uses lot less disk space. I use grub2 to boot so I cannot also boot my 1.1GB image into memory.
Previously, I used puppy linux to fix systems but with a remastered highly customized Ubuntu image do not bother anymore with Puppy.
The advantage is that my USB stick as exactly the same software and look and feel as my main desktop.
82 • Re:79 lmde (by nobodyin on 2010-12-24 11:33:15 GMT from United States)
I personally like Linux Mint 10 x64 better. I do wish they come out with the LXDE version soon. I've played around for one day with the new LMDE x64 version but don't like it as much as the more polished LM10.
83 • on the near future' s computing (by meanpt on 2010-12-24 12:09:24 GMT from Portugal)
A multitouch buntu xpud style.
84 • Favorite DIstro Cont. (by RobertD on 2010-12-24 14:03:19 GMT from United States)
I am new to the Linux scene but would still like to voice my opinion. My favorite distro's to date are Slackware and then OpenBSD takes a close second.
RobertD
85 • Release notes about Knoppix (by Anonymous on 2010-12-24 16:29:14 GMT from United States)
Knoppix release notes state that LibreOffice has replaced OpenOffice, yet in the packages, both LibreOffice and OpenOffice packages show up?, does anyone know if both packages are there? If they are?, then it is surely a waste of space and resources.
ftp://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/knoppix-dvd/packages-dvd.txt
86 • Seasons greetings (by Santa on 2010-12-24 17:26:28 GMT from Canada)
Merry "X"-mas and a happy GNU year to all.
87 • Merry Christmas (by meanSanta on 2010-12-24 18:15:42 GMT from Portugal)
:) ... and a Linux new year :)
88 • Knoppix (by Jesse on 2010-12-24 18:30:01 GMT from Canada)
@85:
I haven't tried the latest Knoppix DVD, but I think, judging from the list, that LibreOffice is installed and OpenOffice is in the repository. I could be wrong, but i think that's what the symbols in front of the package names indicate. (LibreOffice, like most packages is marked "ii" while OpenOffice is marked "rc".)
89 • @87 • Merry Christmas (by santashelper on 2010-12-24 20:04:07 GMT from United States)
Most of the people here will be getting coal in their stockings cuz they been naughty!
90 • favorite distro (by Josh on 2010-12-24 20:24:17 GMT from United States)
I'd have to say mint has done well this past year and I'm especially liking mint 10. Also, been trying out puppy and I have to say I like it so far.
@89: I guess your saying that because we don't pay our M$ tax every year. :)
Happy Holidays All
91 • Fav of the year (by Guy on 2010-12-24 20:28:48 GMT from United States)
Oz Unity was a nice suprise...
92 • Favourite distro (by sudonym on 2010-12-24 21:15:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
For me it is Pardus. The upcoming Pardus 2011 looks to continue with the improvements and innovation.
Have a good Christmas everyone.
93 • Favourite distro (by awong on 2010-12-25 03:00:22 GMT from United States)
Linux Mint 10 LDME - Merry Christmas to all!!!
94 • Debian (by rec9140 on 2010-12-25 12:19:48 GMT from United States)
"If you want binary blobs, a non-free kernel and/or module will be available via the aptly-named "non-free" repo. "
Please explain in detail how I am supposed to get this repo when NO 802.11a/b/g/n and the LAN card also doesn't work? How am I going to get to that repo even if its enabled? ?
Your solution ONLY WORKS for the TOP END of the chain...As I pointed out the NEW USERS and LOWER END will remove the live DVD and fling it into the garbage and never look back at Linux. "Tried it, nothing worked!"
Debian is doing nothing but HARM, HUGE HARM to Linux and itself with this move.
95 • Messy Christmas (by Tom on 2010-12-25 12:51:00 GMT from United Kingdom)
Happy Christmas all. Amazing to see how many distros have had releases today and yesterday. Anytime this week is impressive but Chris Smart's Kororaa & Finnix from Ryan Finnie releasing today is really great to see. Thanks all for a great year :)
Regards from Tom :)
96 • Re#94 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-25 16:11:52 GMT from United States)
For years before I had my own internet access, I always simply bought retail Linux cd's,
or I had friends with internet download and burn cd's for what I needed to set up my computer.
This may not be modern or the way people expect things to work, but it did work for me.
Besides if you have a wireless network capability, chances are you may also have a wired network capacity also, unless the access point you are using is only wireless; like a coffee shop or neighbor's network. There is many more wireless cards supported for free than wireless.
Start with wired net and once the base system is installed, then you can add the repo's for the non-free wireless drivers and go wireless.
Also I'm not sure, but I thought that I read somewhere that Debian would also have a non-free installation cd image just for this sort of problem. Perhaps they have simply not done that so far, this is still an early development for them.
Happy Holidays...
97 • Re#94 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-25 16:28:16 GMT from United States)
Just curious, is there a list, or what wired lan card or cards have only non-free drivers?
Thanks
98 • re 94 (by Debianista on 2010-12-25 18:00:08 GMT from United States)
Sorry for being brutally honest, but if you can't figure it out, you probably aren't ready to use Debian yet. Hint: USB stick.
Again, I recommend you actually read the DFSG in it's entirety. If you disagree with it, you have other options.
Joyous Kwanzaa. =)
99 • Fix:96 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-25 19:03:17 GMT from United States)
Sorry:
There is many more wireless cards supported for free than wireless.
Should be:
There is many more wired cards supported for free than wireless cards.
Happy Holidays...
100 • Debian, FSF, & moving average (by Tom on 2010-12-25 19:23:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
Debian is seldom considered "entry level". We have plenty that are. Ubuntu being top-of-the-list and 4 more in the top ten at DW.
We do need these noob-friendly distros to help increase our user-base and 'market-share' but not if it is at the expense of losing everything that makes gnu&linux different and valuable.
Sadly, until manufacturers provide OpenSource drivers and until the games industry starts taking more notice it is inevitable that becoming more noob-friendly moves us further and further away from Freedom and other linux ideals. As we move away from Freedom there is less pressure on manufacturers and the games industry to take notice of us.
Once people have had a taste of Freedom through our gate-keepers they often move further into linux-land. With Debian, Slackware, the FSF, Richard Stallman and other people, organisations, communities and distros pushing the opposite boundaries into giving us increasing Freedom it (hopefully) might keep our average position about the same.
Hopefully this will force manufacturers and the games industry to realise that if they fail to support gnu&linux then they will start to lose market share against their rivals that do start supporting us and that playing "catch up" is less effective that establishing a loyal fan-base early.
Ati released data to allow OpenSource drivers to be written but NVidia paid experienced OpenSource developers to be part of a team developing NVidia's idea of an OpenSource driver. As a result the properly OpenSource NVidia driver is now far ahead of the Ati one although both are being worked on fairly frantically. For the first time ever i have been 'forced into' buying an NVidia card. Previously i have always been loyal to Ati but it is likely to be a few years before Ati can catch-up. Too late for Ati perhaps?
Debian was about the 1st distro to release on the Hurd kernel even tho Hurd is not yet stable. Releasing an edition based on a completely Free linux kernel (especially since it was not motivated purely for FSF approval) seems a great move that we should applaud.
Trisquel, just a few weeks ago was reviewed quite favourably and found to work quite well fairly easily
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20101004#feature
'despite' being fully approved by the FSF. Perhaps by more distros joining this campaign we might find them all become increasingly easy to use.
Apparently Canon have released OpenSource driver for their older iP47xx printers just a couple of days ago. It doesn't seem to work well with Cups, yet. I think the Cups people might not even know about it yet (unless they helped build it!).
'Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed individuals can change the world. Indeed it's the only thing that ever has'. ~ Margaret Mead
'First they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.' ~ Gandhi
We are still at stage 1 with some people but it seems a few are already at stage 3 with some crucial others.
Happy Christmas everyone :)
Many regards from Tom :)
101 • Debian and FSF (by fernbap on 2010-12-25 19:54:04 GMT from Portugal)
My point is simple: there is nothing preventing Debian from presenting the choice to the user of using or not proprietary software and binary blobs. That would make debian much more accessible to the newbies.
This way, Debian is perpectuating the notion that Debian is not user friendly and requires user friendly debian based distros, like Ubuntu.
If the user isn't presented with a choice, don't expect he to embrace something that will likely give him headakes.
102 • re 101 (by Debianista on 2010-12-25 20:12:43 GMT from United States)
Debian does give the user a choice. Want the blobs back? Here you go. Simply install the below package.
firmware-linux-nonfree - Binary firmware for various drivers in the Linux kernel.
Description: Binary firmware for various drivers in the Linux kernel
This package contains the binary firmware for various drivers in the
Linux kernel. This is a collection of firmware blobs which are not
individually large enough to warrant a standalone package.
It is up to the user to bend Debian to his will, not the other way around. That's what makes it so great. I'm in control and don't have a bunch of "wizards" making decisions for me or adding unnecessary bloat. As far as headaches go, that goes back to the user. If they are willing to read and learn how the system works, there won't be any headaches.
103 • @102 (by fernbap on 2010-12-25 20:21:19 GMT from Portugal)
"It is up to the user to bend Debian to his will, not the other way around"
Oh really? Most people are not into OS bending, they just want something that works.
"If they are willing to read and learn how the system works, there won't be any headaches"
And no, most people don't want to learn how the system works. They just want to use it.
Sure, it is better for you to understand mechanics while using a car, but most drivers don't. Yet they use cars successfully.
104 • lol@installubuntu.suk (by Debianista on 2010-12-25 20:33:23 GMT from United States)
Don't presume to speak for most people. Again, you are free to use whatever you like- I don't care. If you have no interest in understanding the inner workings of Debian, no one is forcing you to do it.
If you don't want to check your air pressure on your tires or check/change your oil, it's your car, not mine. Again, I don't care.
105 • Debian (by Jesse on 2010-12-25 20:53:10 GMT from Canada)
>> "It is up to the user to bend Debian to his will, not the other way around. That's what makes it so great. I'm in control and don't have a bunch of "wizards" making decisions for me or adding unnecessary bloat. "
That's pretty much the opposite of what is happening. The Debian developers (or wizards, as you put it) are deciding what drivers and firmware you get with a fresh install of Debian. They are removing pieces they don't like, not you. While most Debian users will probably be able to connect to the net and install the non-free kernel, it's an extra step which shouldn't be required. I think it would make a lot more sense to do it the other way around. Give people the full non-free kernel so they can get up and running and give users the option to switch to a libre kernel if they prefer. Or, as someone pointed out, you could install both from the beginning to let users experiment. Disabling functionality out of the box is rarely desired.
I read that Debian is providing alternative install media with the non-free kernel, but I haven't been able to find it. If they do provide an alternative install I think that would strike a good balance between their ideals and practicality.
Someone pointed out further up that Triquel works really well, and it does. The exception in my case being that my wireless card didn't work.
106 • Clarification, minor (repetitive) rant (by Debianista on 2010-12-25 22:34:31 GMT from United States)
By "wizards" I was referring to the automatic installation of non-free drivers, codecs, etc- typically by a pretty gui interface to keep the user from seeing the mess it's leaving behind.
firmware-linux-non-free is available for those who want/need it.
Line 1 of the social contract clearly states, "We will never make the system require the use of a non-free component."
Now they are finally backing it up by removing the blobs in the default kernel. They aren't saying by any stretch of the imagination that they aren't going to continue to provide non-free packages, they just won't be on default installs. How is turning your back on your core values for the sake of convenience acceptable? It's a shame they didn't fix this a long time ago.
107 • Debian Squeeze is a huge mistake (by imnotrich on 2010-12-26 02:09:58 GMT from Mexico)
We already have non-functional out of the box distros such the bsd's, gentoo, slax and etch that cater to expert (eccentric) Linux tinkerers. Calling them Linux "users" would be a bit of a mischaracterization, since a basic level of functionality is assumed if you're going to call a distro usable and it's fans as users.
Of course this will have no impact on Debian's legendary support of wireless networking (joke). Even today's Debian has poor hardware support compared to some of the other choices out there - even some of the respins, so I can't wait to see what Squueze breaks or omits.
Debian up through the 5's fills an important middle of the road niche. Stable, not too complicated but still with room for tinkering.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the Debian respins who aim to be a little more user friendly. Many will simply disappear because they don't have the resources to repair what Squeeze has ruined.
Oh and I don't consider Ubuntu to be very user friendly either. The 9's and 10's were total turkeys. 11.04 alpha 1 is a vast improvement - but don't install the recommended and allegedly tested nvidia video drivers - they are not compatible with 11.04 and will bork your install-a bug first reported with 10.04 by the way.
108 • All this Debian talk (by Al on 2010-12-26 02:30:12 GMT from Canada)
It reminds me of words from an old Monty Python skit.
"Your majesty is like a stream of bat's piss."
"What?"
"I merely meant, Your Majesty, that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark."
109 • All this anti-Debian angst ... (by jake on 2010-12-26 04:32:02 GMT from United States)
Those of you who don't like Debian's methodology, don't eyeball Slackware. It'd probably give you a coronary ... and LFS would probably kill you instantly, so kindly don't even think about it.
But please, do continue to use your shovelware, everything but the kitchen-sink distro of choice. We need all the FOSS users out there that we can get.
There are no right or wrong distros, no best or worst ... just options. And options are always good. Follow your bliss, and carry on carrying on, thankful that someone, somewhere, is going out of their way to provide YOU a distro that works the way you want it to work.
110 • @109 (by Josh on 2010-12-26 04:56:45 GMT from United States)
Jake, I went in with the "LFS will be hell" thinking. I haven't started in the BLFS, but the LFS book is fairly easy as long as you can type and read. There's not much they leave you stranded in doing. I'd say the most challenging part for a new linux user would be the kernel configuration, which I've done twice and its not so bad.
And yes, we should be thankful for Debian, Redhat, and all the other base distros and new distros that come from them. They provide us with improvement in someone's eyes, and that's never a bad thing.
111 • #110 (by jake on 2010-12-26 05:08:29 GMT from United States)
I've been using Slackware and BSD[1] to run my businesses[2] for a decade and a half, or thereabouts. Clearly, I must be doing something wrong. Could you, o great guru of all that is good & holy, kindly point out the error of my ways?
[1] Slack on the desktops, BSD on the servers.
[2] Horse ranch, sheep ranch, riding program, dog training, camp for "disadvantaged youth", tack store, feed store, vineyard, winery, brewery, bakery, cheese making, computer & networking consulting business, a couple others ... and the maintenance department to take care of it all is run as a separate business, for what should be obvious reasons ...
112 • I never said LFS was "hell". (by jake on 2010-12-26 05:13:33 GMT from United States)
It *is* time consuming, though. Or was last time I went thru' the process (I plan to look into it again sometime this Winter, just to keep myself informed). The folks griping about Debian are really griping about the time it takes to set up, and/or the fact that they might accidentally learn something in the process.
113 • learning... (by Josh on 2010-12-26 05:18:51 GMT from United States)
Yea, I know you didn't. But, that's how I went in, and came out better for the experience. But, it is time consuming. I think it took me about 3 days to get it up and running, between sleep, eating, compiling, and backtracking for mistakes. As for Debian, I've never tried it yet, but I think I will once squeeze comes out.
114 • RE: 110/114 (by Landor on 2010-12-26 05:29:49 GMT from Canada)
There's only one person that I've ever seen that called an MS product a "distribution" and that was not long ago, and none other than the person who enjoys trolling from time to time, SirKitt/OnoSendai. So, I take it any post into consideration.
BTW, the Debian topic? I decided not to debate it this week since it's simply not worth the time discussing it. It's really that simple. When a group of people can't understand a social contract that was first agreed upon most likely long before likely ever used Linux, and then updated again 6 years ago, and feels Debian needs to change their beliefs/goals because of their beliefs/wants? Not worth the effort. They'll never get it since they haven't by now.
Anyway, I hope everyone that celebrates Christmas enjoyed time spent with those that matter.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
115 • @113 (by fernbap on 2010-12-26 05:30:44 GMT from Portugal)
"The folks griping about Debian are really griping about the time it takes to set up, and/or the fact that they might accidentally learn something in the process."
it's not that simple, sorry. Not everyone will be interested in LFS, regardless of it offering a nice learning experience to anyone that wants it.
The simple fact is that if you have a computer, you will want it to work in the first place, so that you can use it as a computer, not a learning experience.
You want to learn? Great! But if you are offering an OS for people to use, requiring them to "embarq on a wonderful learning experience" is not the way. Believe me, it's not.
You can not DEMAND people to learn in order to use your product. That will never work. It is this simple concept that i think you find difficult to grasp. That's also why the idiotic rtfm attitude is not helping. At all.
116 • Clarification ... Just to help the moderator. (by jake on 2010-12-26 05:40:42 GMT from United States)
Mine in #111 wasn't directed at Josh's #110 ... rather it was directed at refuting someone else trying to promulgate the myth that FOSS is nothing but a geek "toy".
I know, I know, I know, don't feed the trolls ... I'll try to do better in the future ... might even make it my New Years resolution ;-)
Landor: I don't celebrate Christmas, I celebrate Solstice. Not because I'm pagan (I'm not affiliated with any religion), but rather because I'm happy that the days are getting longer now ... and that the mares are getting ready to foal! Babies on the ground is always a happy thing :-)
Season's greetings, all!
117 • RE: 116 (by Landor on 2010-12-26 05:50:27 GMT from Canada)
"rather it was directed at refuting someone else trying to promulgate the myth that FOSS is nothing but a geek "toy". "
I saw that, and as per my belief was who I believe it to be that posted the comment.
My resolution this year (for Linux at least) is probably going to be what I've been doing for about the last 8+ months: Raise my head up, look around, think `ahh`, then go back to exactly what I was doing before, my own thing. :)
I was just thinking similar. Looking forward to the days growing longer. Although I'm in no way anywhere near the coldest parts of Canada, I look forward to sunshine and nice days (mainly spring) as opposed to winter. Good Luck with the mares. :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
118 • demand to learn (by Josh on 2010-12-26 05:51:43 GMT from United States)
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't every application, be it at first or through a major interface change, demand some willingness to learn how to use it properly. I certainly don't remember being born knowing how to use something like hydrogen or gimp. I still don't know how to use them that well, but if I needed to I'd be somewhat in need of teaching myself how to use it. Even when I first came to linux, and just recently started using kde on another partition, there was certainly a need to learn how to use the system and interface that was quite different from windows and gnome respectively. Sure, not everyone is interested in it, but if they do, they will make the effort to learn it.
119 • fernbap, take two steps back and listen to yourself. (by jake on 2010-12-26 06:03:16 GMT from United States)
Seriously. Do you not see the issue involved in saying "Debian can't make people learn, therefore I want them to dumb it down like my FOSS distro of choice!"
Our way, we have a plethora of options. Taking your path, we have a singular, all things to all people, OS. Kinda like the offerings from Redmond, and the road Cupertino is heading down ... and no need for Distrowatch, BTW. Which would you prefer?
Use your FOSS distro(s) of choice. Stop griping about the ones you don't like. Or, if you like the basic core of Debian, but not the philosophy behind it ... FORK the dang thing! Put your own stamp on it. Spend your energy in a useful manor. People will thank you for it, if you do it right!
120 • fernbap 115 ::facepalms:: (by Debianista on 2010-12-26 06:07:37 GMT from United States)
Setting up your system the way you want it requires some rtfm and learning. You continue to promote yourself to spokesman for the general linux community- but your opinion is clearly not shared by everyone else. No one has demanded you install lfs, arch, slackware, gentoo, debian or whatever other distro where you may need to access the cli on occasion instead of having your hand held with a bloated gui tool.
Also, I would contend you have a problem grasping some basic principles, particularly regarding Debian. Read the Social Contract and DFSG! It's very simple. Or you could just keep debating a subject you lack knowledge about. You've made it clear you have an aversion to reading, after all.
While you're at it, go on the boards of some of the distros I mentioned. Demand they fix your problems for you and make sure to let them know you refuse to rtfm. Let us know how that works out for you. In the meantime, there are shovelware (awesome term, thanks) distros you can use. Apologies to the rest of you for this latest feeding, I'm going to take Landor's advice now, as some will just never get it.
Happy Festivus
121 • @119 (by fernbap on 2010-12-26 06:52:49 GMT from Portugal)
"Our way, we have a plethora of options. Taking your path, we have a singular, all things to all people, OS."
Wrong. First of all, the world is not black and white. It's in all shades of grey.
The purpose of an OS, any OS , is to enable the user to use applications. As simple as that.
You can't require a graphics designer, for instance, to learn the OS in order to be able to start GIMP. He is only interested in using GIMP. All he needs (and wants) to learn, besides how to use GIMP, which is his working tool, is the minimum necessary in order to start the application he needs to use.
Saying that those professionals will be happy with shovelware (a black and white position) or implying that i am a troll because i have a different opinion (another black and white position) doesn't help.
Of course, if you are an IT professional (which i am) that doesn't mean you don't want to empower the ignorant users in order to allow them to use a decent OS, instead of that Redmond trash. The benefits for promoting that are more than obvious.
122 • To be clear, the term "shovelware" is not mine ... (by jake on 2010-12-26 07:17:05 GMT from United States)
I first read it either in "Journal of the ACM" or "Dr. Dobbs Journal"[1] or Jerry Pournelle's "Byte" column, all on pre-WWW dead-tree publications ... within weeks, the term was pervasive on Usenet.
Originally, it was used to describe the compilations of "shareware"[2] stuffed onto the then new-fangled data CD-ROMs in the late '80s & early '90s. Probably the best known such provider was Walnut Creek CDROM.
[1] Did "SysAdmin Magazine" exist back then? I can't remember ... As I get older, time is concatenating itself ...
[2] Precursor to what we now call "FOSS", for you youngsters in the audience. Look it up.
123 • @121 (by jake on 2010-12-26 07:43:05 GMT from United States)
::sighs:: You really can't see the forest for trees, can you?
Some OSes *do* exist to learn how OSes work. See Minix, for a good example. UNIX TSS when I first got to Berkeley was another. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 when I was at DEC were also, but that's another multi-layered story ... I'll spare you.
Linux, on the other hand, has many varieties. Some allow the user to learn along the way. Others allow the user to just get on with it. Why are you wasting your time griping about one variety of Linux? What did Debian ever do to you? Do you grok the term "vive la différence"? Why not just get on with it, if that floats your boat?
Please note that I don't even particularly like Debian ... I'm a Slackware user. But the Slack set has contributed to the code in Debian, and the Debian set has contributed to the code in Slackware. Again, vive la différence!
124 • Debian (by Anonymous on 2010-12-26 08:09:51 GMT from United States)
Check it out (just in case you couldn't find it):
http://www.debian.org/social_contract
125 • RE: 121 (by Landor on 2010-12-26 09:16:14 GMT from Canada)
"Wrong. First of all, the world is not black and white. It's in all shades of grey.
The purpose of an OS, any OS , is to enable the user to use applications. As simple as that."
Wrong. You stated you're an IT. I'm not saying that you are not, but to make the above comment, that tells me you don't really understand operating systems, or how computer hardware does what it does.
An Operating System's purpose is to tell the hardware how to function, nothing more. Its purpose is not to enable the user to use applications, it's to enable the user to use the hardware. That is a massive, and fundamental difference from what you are stating.
The hardware doesn't care if there's a GUI, it doesn't care if you can watch DVDs. It doesn't even care if it functions. It's hardware, and it needs to be told what to do. Hence an operating system.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
126 • @125, I agree. (by jake on 2010-12-26 09:33:09 GMT from United States)
Furthermore, there is no such thing as "software" ... Software is an invention of Marketing. In all reality, software is merely the current state of the hardware.
127 • "software" (by Al on 2010-12-26 12:17:41 GMT from Canada)
I changed the current state of my hardware to Debian two years ago. It was a good choice :-)
128 • Zorin 4 Core (by dancingdog777 on 2010-12-26 12:37:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
Burnt Zorin 4 to DVD then ran the live session. The distrro doesn't recognise the built in wireless connection on this Dell 1545 Inspiron and although wireless drivers are offered you have to be connected to the internet first to download them!
Stupid buggers should have put the drivers on the ISO, especially since their target audience are Linux beginners!
One to miss!
129 • Diversity breeds serendipity (by Tom on 2010-12-26 13:27:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
The statement "but your opinion is clearly not shared by everyone else." is a classic for gnu&linux, gnu&hurd, bsd and the rest. Please, please, please can we promise to make our own decisions without constantly agreeing with everything everyone else says? We help each other through our disagreements after-all :)
130 • Software (by Jesse on 2010-12-26 14:13:31 GMT from Canada)
>> "Furthermore, there is no such thing as "software" ... Software is an invention of Marketing. In all reality, software is merely the current state of the hardware."
I see this thrown around a lot and it's pretty silly. Of course there is such as thing as software, software is a lot more than just a state of hardware. It's a bit like saying there are no novels, just different states of letters. Software is more than just a representation of voltages in the machine, it's also embodies a style, a plan, various methods of thinking. Software is like a song and hardware is the instrument. We don't go around saying "There is no music, just different states of a piano," now do we?
The concept of software has nothing to do with marketing, it's a distinction between what a machine has the capacity to do and what we tell it to do.
131 • Re: 130 (by jake on 2010-12-26 14:43:22 GMT from United States)
You are mistaking the Marketing term "Software" for the programmer's term "code".
Code is an algorithm, a set of instructions, and can be made to run on pretty much any hardware; perl, vi and bash are good examples. On the other hand, the concept of "software" is a closed set that is corporately locked to specific hardware; Apple's current offerings are trying to be a good example.
Pedantic? Absolutely! But then an "a" is not an "A", at least not according to my compiler.
132 • Punctilious poster(s) (by Jon Thompsen on 2010-12-26 16:50:25 GMT from United States)
<<< I see this thrown around a lot and it's pretty silly. >>>
Of course it's silly.
I would go further and say that it is also ridiculous.
But then again, much of what those who insist that there is "no such thing as software" state/say/post is silly .... and quite often ridiculous.
133 • @130 (by sudonym. on 2010-12-26 17:37:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
Blimey!
Couldn't agree more with Jesse's sensible and relistic comments.
@125:
"An Operating System's purpose is to tell the hardware how to function, nothing more........., it's to enable the user to use the hardware....."
Erm.......and.............? The above quote in no way invalidates or contradicts frenbap's statement in 121.
I really found your post a bit difficult Landor - perhaps I am a bit thick :{
"It's hardware, and it needs to be told what to do. Hence an operating system."
And.................what?
Sorry, but what you are saying does not conflict with what fernbap said in 121 - you must, surely, know what he _means_.
This, and the 'Software is the current state of the hardware...", is just completely show-offish and out of context. Also, it is completely out of context.
You can't fail to realise the context/meaning when people use words like applications and software - it's just that you can't resist an opportunity to impress others with your knowledge.
Please be more reasonable.
134 • @133 (by sudonym on 2010-12-26 17:43:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yes, I should have checked through my response again before submitting my post:
"Also, it is completely out of context." .....oops!
135 • @131 (by fernbap on 2010-12-26 19:02:49 GMT from Portugal)
"You are mistaking the Marketing term "Software" for the programmer's term "code".
However, coders work for what is called software companies. Funny, isn't it?
There is a reason for the 2 terms.
Code refers to a functional piece of programming instructions. Software refers to a project, that integrates many pieces of code into one functional application.
If you don't understand that, then you don't understand what a systems administrator does.
136 • Jibberish (by Silent Majority on 2010-12-26 22:26:15 GMT from Canada)
Occasionally I read these comments and it's a little lot like a soap opera. You can miss several dozen episodes and not miss a damn thing.
137 • Operating system (by Anonymous on 2010-12-27 00:37:30 GMT from United States)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_System
"An operating system (OS) is 'Software, Consisting of Programs and Data', that runs on computers and manages the computer hardware[1] and provides common services for efficient execution of various application software."
I think that article sums it up fairly well. (please read it)
Consider that with Linux if you only have Linux (simply a kernel) then you don't even have the command line.
The command line requires an application like Bash (shell), also you can't login without Logon.
The stuff a newbie sees as the whole graphical desktop is a completely extra bunch of applications running on top of Linux.
And don't forget that the desktop runs on "X" (more apps) which runs on Linux.
I will agree that Debian is a distruibution (collection) of GNU and other software (defined as programs and data) which uses the Linux kernel program for interface to the computer's hardware.
How all of these applications are grouped and arranged together is the design of the people involved with providing the distribution (like Debian).
Not all distro's are alike and not everyone wants the same things in life.
This is where choice is important, and why I suppose there are so many distro's.
This debate is not much different than saying a certain car manufacturer is wrong because they make cars different. If you drive, have you ever noticed the difference between driving a small compact car or a large sedan or a pickup truck or a heavy truck?
I'm sure most people will preferr only some of those mentioned for everyday use, and not all people would like the same kind. Same for distro's, but hey, if you don't like one there is always another to try out; just look at the home page here:
http://distrowatch.com/
Lots to try out, maybe some to keep on using, and best of all you don't need a drivers license to use any of them. Anyone can play or use, not just certified IT types.
Have fun!
138 • software (by Anonymous on 2010-12-27 01:04:59 GMT from Portugal)
I'm not an IT, so I may be out by miles. But, for me, "the current state of the hardware" is what drivers are supposed to preform. Then, we need software to compute 1+1=2
139 • login without Logon (by Anonymous on 2010-12-27 03:31:15 GMT from United States)
That's:
logon without the login app.
140 • Don't they teach this stuff in school anymore? (by jake on 2010-12-27 05:28:31 GMT from United States)
Hardware is split into three ideas: CPU, Memory, and I/O.
CPU is controlled by the code that is known as the OS.
Memory is controlled by code that handles whatever bit of memory you are accessing.
I/O is controlled by code (shims, or "drivers", in the vernacular) for that I/O.
There is also "application code". It interacts with the OS, and allows you to add 1+1, sometimes graphically (with the help of I/O and Memory), amongst other tasks.
But there is no "software". So-called "software" is an invention of marketing departments.
Why do you think the phrase "running code trumps all" isn't phrased "running software trumps all", instead? Seriously, think about it.
141 • 1+1 = 2? or 10? (by Tom on 2010-12-27 08:57:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
For a certain definition of "software" it doesn't exist but it seems that both sides of this argument have different definitions of what the word means.
142 • Semantics (by RobertD on 2010-12-27 12:17:40 GMT from United States)
Words are often used interchangeably even if used incorrectly. There are people in my neck of the woods that call a "creek" a "crick". Like "that crick is pretty high today or is there any fish in that crick". While the words have different meanings I know what they mean when they use the word crick.
Happy New Year!
RobertD
143 • Don't they teach this stuff in school anymore? (by fernbap on 2010-12-27 13:01:30 GMT from Portugal)
No, because it isn't true
144 • SongBird (by Tom on 2010-12-27 15:59:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
HI :) Some interesting stats from a couple of scrolls down on this article
http://blog.songbirdnest.com/2010/04/02/songbird-singing-a-new-tune/
They continue to be OpenSource and hopefully they will be able to return to Linux-land if they ever get enough developers working with them. Oddly they are releasing linux versions still but these are far less developed than the Windows&Mac versions nowadays. Interesting stats on their site :)
Meanwhile there has been a fork called Nightingale and there are a number of other Media players in linux even if they don't cover all the same ground that SongBird do.
Regards from Tom :)
145 • post #140 (by Jon Thomsen on 2010-12-27 16:14:41 GMT from United States)
"They" used to teach that the planet Earth was flat and located at the center of the solar system.
Some people live in the 21st century ---- some do not.
146 • re-Software (by dive.ed on 2010-12-27 17:36:42 GMT from United States)
Could anyone claiming that the term "software" is the invention of the marketing world please post a reference to documentation backing this statement. My research indicates it's use as a noun describing programming code pre-dates the use of it for any marketing purpose.
147 • continuation of 146 (by dive.ed on 2010-12-27 17:43:28 GMT from United States)
Sorry, I submitted that comment before completion.1 - A programming engineer claims to have coined the term in 1953 to describe his work. The first documented reference to the word "software" appeared in 1958 and a definition appeared as early as 1960.
See the following link by the engineer claiming to have coined the word.
1- http://www.niquette.com/books/softword/part0.htm
148 • @140 (by Patrick on 2010-12-27 17:47:40 GMT from United States)
Boy, for the longest time you've had me fooled into thinking you actually knew what you were talking about. This post was a real revelation.
> Hardware is split into three ideas: CPU, Memory, and I/O.
Nope, never learned about the "three ideas of hardware" in school. Distinctions like this become kind of difficult to maintain when CPU's contain megabytes of memory, I/O's contain their own CPUs and memory, and CPU's may even be configured by memory locations in an FPGA. I guess, this abstraction of reality would make the most sense from the perspective of software. But then again, there is no such thing as software, so I guess it makes no sense after all.
> CPU is controlled by the code that is known as the OS.
Wow! Amazing. Where did you come up with that definition of an OS?
By your definition, it sounds like you think that the OS is sort of a "driver" for the CPU. If the OS "controls" the CPU, then where do the applications run? Don't they "control" the CPU too if they're running? Or do you think the applications run on the OS or something?
The OS does not "control" the CPU. The CPU runs the OS, and every other piece of code for that matter. The CPU provides the service of bringing the coded instructions of software to life by actually executing them, whether they are OS code, driver code, or application code. I guess you could argue that the OS sets up privilege levels and execution environments, but these are a service to the software, not a service to the CPU. The goal of the OS is not to "control" the CPU, the goal of the CPU is to provide an execution environment for software.
> Memory is controlled by code that handles whatever bit of memory you are accessing.
What a wonderful insight. But backwards too.
The point is not that there is code that has the purpose of controlling the memory. There is no particular code in charge of "handling" a chunk of memory. The point is that the memory provides the service of storing values for the code, whenever the code needs it. Again, the memory provides a service in providing an execution environment for software.
> I/O is controlled by code (shims, or "drivers", in the vernacular) for that I/O.
This is the closest to reality you've come. I/O is actually "controlled" by code, most of the time, and the point of the code is to "control" the hardware in this case. Of course, things like DMA turn that on its head too and allow I/O to access memory without running code, but that's beside the point.
> But there is no "software". So-called "software" is an invention of marketing departments.
I suggest you come up with a reference to prove this tiresome assertion. It should be possible to find out who first coined the term.
As to your continuously repeated statement "there is no software, it is merely the current state of the hardware", I'd like to say this: At best, this is a very incomplete statement. It would at least have to include previous and subsequent states of the hardware too. The current, static state of hardware cannot possibly encompass the term "software".
I would actually like to turn your assertion on its head. I won't go as far as claiming that there is no hardware, because then I would be as mistaken as you are. But I could more readily agree if someone made the claim that between software and hardware, software is the goal, and hardware is merely a means to an end to make it possible to run the software.
Think about it: if we could run our applications without hardware, we would. Case in point is the continuous shrinking of computer hardware: if we could, we would shrink it down to nothing. If we could create a document by just thinking about how it should look and what it should contain, we'd happily do that. If there would be a way to hear a song, without actually needing cumbersome speakers or carrying an MP3 player, we would. If we could watch a movie, without needing a screen, we would. If we could talk to a person on the other side of the world without equipment, we would. In short, the hardware we use mostly exists to provide an interface to our brains. The CPU and memory in a computer exist because no one has come up with an execution environment for our software, that does not require hardware.
All in all, the complete system and the service it provides is what we care about. And software is just as important a component of this system as every single piece of hardware you can throw at it. All the hardware is dead, without the software bringing it to life. Software embodies the intend of what you're trying to do with the system, as brought out by Jesse. I think his comparison to music is right on.
> Why do you think the phrase "running code trumps all" isn't phrased "running software trumps all", instead? Seriously, think about it.
Simple: because the context of the statement was a piece of code, not a full software package. Now if that was supposed to prove no such thing as software exists, then you've come to a new low in providing "evidence".
149 • Debian CD with Non-Free Firmware (by Powell on 2010-12-27 18:31:27 GMT from United States)
To all those who are getting their panties in a bunch that Debian's official CD's will no longer contain non-free firmware: there will still be semi-official net-install CD images with the firmware still present. They are located at http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/ . So you may stop your bellyaching about it now. Thank you.
150 • Debian's philosophy (by Pearson on 2010-12-27 20:46:41 GMT from United States)
A few comments on the Debian discussion:
1. I find it telling that Debian considres the state of Linux FOSS hardware support to be good enough that most can use them out of the box. Linux has come a long way!
2. Debian has a clearly-stated philosophy, and they are making moves to work towards that. I applaud them for it. They are one of hundreds of distros out there, some of which are even more restrictive. They *are* offering a choice - a choice to download their distro and install it using only FOSS software. This is *not* restricting the users any more than not supporting ARM (and some major OSes don't).
3. This may drive more users to purchase hardware with FOSS drivers, and maybe encourage more FOSS driver development.
151 • @150 (by Blue Knight on 2010-12-28 00:21:04 GMT from France)
> "I find it telling that Debian considres the state of Linux FOSS hardware support to be good enough that most can use them out of the box. Linux has come a long way!"
Really, Debian think that? And you, you think really that? Hmm...
> "Debian has a clearly-stated philosophy, and they are making moves to work towards that. I applaud them for it. They are one of hundreds of distros out there, some of which are even more restrictive. They *are* offering a choice - a choice to download their distro and install it using only FOSS software. This is *not* restricting the users any more than not supporting ARM (and some major OSes don't). "
Personally, I don't applaud them, sorry. But also for other reasons. And about the choice, yes, you have a choice: install "only F0SS" Debian or go elsewhere!
> "This may drive more users to purchase hardware with FOSS drivers, and maybe encourage more FOSS driver development."
I don't think so, no. Sorry.
152 • Debian free kernel (by Josh on 2010-12-28 02:14:41 GMT from United States)
This might help some of you understand why Debian is using a free kernel, and their intent to do so now for some time, seems it was inevitable when they thought the time was right:
http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20101215
In the social contract, Debian is committed to free software. Using non-free software, unless where necessary, would obstruct that goal completely. Free software won't be improved unless its used. I for one applaud them for following their contract and believing in free software.
There is a non-free package for those who need the firmware. No where have I yet seen that its FOSS only or gtfo.
153 • @151 (by Barnabyh on 2010-12-28 02:55:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sigh, have to chime in on this silly Debian spectacle.
> "Debian has a clearly-stated philosophy, and they are making moves to work towards that. I applaud them for it. They are one of hundreds of distros out there, some of which are even more restrictive. They *are* offering a choice - a choice to download their distro and install it using only FOSS software. This is *not* restricting the users any more than not supporting ARM (and some major OSes don't). "
>>"Personally, I don't applaud them, sorry. But also for other reasons. And about the choice, yes, you have a choice: install "only F0SS" Debian or go elsewhere!"
That is a good choice. If you really want to run Debian Squeeze so desperately you will not be put off by one wireless driver (1) not being available out of the proverbial box, you will find a way to make it bloody work, and it's not that difficult. If you could not care less because really you are a bit lazy (not saying YOU are) or like something else because it fills your needs better use that. Absolutely fine, this is why there are good distributions like Mepis and Mint around. Perhaps LMDE will do the trick? You can still use Debian, without actually using Debian (proper).
(1) That's most of the time the only thing it is about these days IME, and even there most devices are supported these days.
154 • RE:140 • Don't they teach this stuff in school anymore? (by Anonymous on 2010-12-28 04:41:00 GMT from United States)
Jake, if you would, please tell me the speed of your computer's cpu which you used to post comment 140. This is relevant and I am curious. Thanks in advance.
155 • Distributions and watching them. (by RollMeAway on 2010-12-28 05:44:20 GMT from United States)
That is the theme of this discussion?
I see 13 new releases on the main page.
Has nobody experiences to share?
Better than discussing "Why is there air?"
156 • @154 (by jake on 2010-12-28 06:14:03 GMT from United States)
Finally, a smart question, instead of knee-jerk reactions. Thanks for asking.
I think my fastest PDP-11 was clocked at 18MHz ;-)
The post itself came from this 7 year old 2.8 GHz Celeron laptop, connected at 1200 baud[1], and was routed through my Sun 3/470 "Pegasus" (68030, 33MHz), on the way thru' my DSL modem in Sonoma, CA ...
My point stands, though ... These days, kids are taught top-down, not bottom-up. Not many of 'em even know the difference between the heap and the stack, and how the compiler uses them. Much less when it's a good idea to hand-massage the assembler output from the compiler ... or even that the compiler actually produces assembler, not ready-to-run executables.
Toggling in boot-code would most likely make their brains explode.
As I said somewhere above, feel free to call me a crusty old fart ... My goal in comments like my original is to make people think, and *maybe* help some kid, somewhere, realize that there might be more involved than iThingies & !GooMyFaceYouTwit ... Someone has to take over from us old guard eventually.
[1] Yes. 1200. I'm up at my place off the grid in Mendocino County, about 20 miles from the nearest fiber-mux "CO", and it's been drizzling. Old, dusty, cracked, wet cable plant makes for a poor signal-noise ratio. I'd get Satellite, but most of what I do online is text-only anyway, so why bother?
157 • Oldtimers... (by Verndog on 2010-12-29 00:40:51 GMT from United States)
god I remember those toggle switch Altairs. I wanted one but opted for a more modern KIM single board computer with a fancy hex keypad and I could even save my programs using the onboard phase-locked-loop circuit on cassettes.
158 • Re:156 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-29 03:31:13 GMT from United States)
Thanks, for your answer.
Please take this constructively as your reply is basically in line with my ideas here.
I simply asked for the speed which you produced promptly.
Your answer was 2.8GHz, fair enough.
The point I am making is that Hz or hertz is not a scientific unit.
The basic unit is Cycles Per Second or cps (Gcps).
Hertz is an honorary unit, honoring a Mr. Heinrich Hertz.
To me this is like your remarks about the term Software.
I do understand both trains of thought, I'm weird like that though.
By the way have you noticed how groceries are sold, by the pound, in the USA?
I was taught in school (many years ago) that a pound is a unit of force.
In this system a pound is a Slug Foot Per Second.
The Slug is a unit of mass, much like the Gram or as seen in stores, the KiloGram, Kg.
I call pounds of butter (pounds) a marketing term, since it is rare enough to find anyone who recognises the pound-mass and what it is; even though that may just be what some packages do reference as pounds.
Enough of the physics lessons and or terminologies, just trying to clear things up (or not).
I prefer Debian (started out and learned Linux with Slackware) and I am not afraid to tinker with it if needed, although usually it just runs and runs; 99.999% uptime.
Oh and as far back as I can remember, my teachers always taught about software as defined by current dictionaries or Wikipedia.
Yes I consider myself lucky to have known many people on the way who did stress bottom up teaching. I do agree this may no longer be the norm today.
Thanks for everyone's time, back to DWW.
159 • Re: 158 (by jake on 2010-12-29 05:13:19 GMT from United States)
"The point I am making is that Hz or hertz is not a scientific unit.
The basic unit is Cycles Per Second or cps (Gcps)."
You are mistaken, Sir or Madame ... Conférence Générale des Poids et Mesures decided otherwise back in 1960 ... The proper SI unit is hertz.
"I was taught in school (many years ago) that a pound is a unit of force.
In this system a pound is a Slug Foot Per Second."
The "pound" can be thought of as mass or force, if you insist on being archaic (I much prefer the Metric system, it's more logical). In day to day life, at Sainsbury's or Safeway, when lifting a pound of butter, it doesn't make much difference. When it does make a difference, we specify what we are talking about.
"I prefer Debian (started out and learned Linux with Slackware) and I am not afraid to tinker with it if needed, although usually it just runs and runs; 99.999% uptime."
So about 22.5 seconds of down-time since Debian was first released? OK, if you say so ... Note that that's a hind-brain calculation, but I should be in the ball-park.
"Oh and as far back as I can remember, my teachers always taught about software as defined by current dictionaries or Wikipedia."
Most dictionaries at schools are badly out of date, and Wikipedia isn't a valid source of anything ...
160 • My wife just pointed out ... (by jake on 2010-12-29 07:01:15 GMT from United States)
... that I'm a couple orders of magnitude low on the down-time ... but then she's the mathematician in the family. Instead of 22 seconds, call it half an hour over 17.5 years ... Not certain where my brain-fart happened, but I'm only human ;-)
The gist of mine remains the same ...
161 • Gah! An hour and a half of down-time ... Mea culpa, yet again :-) (by jake on 2010-12-29 07:34:59 GMT from United States)
Pardon me while I go back to making sure the rain goes where I want it to go ... We've had nearly 2.5 inches in the last 7 hours. I'm kinda distracted :-)
162 • @155 • Distributions and watching them. (by RollMeAway (by Anonymous on 2010-12-29 11:05:05 GMT from Portugal)
You're right. But, have a look on them and you'll find that news come from Mint Debian regarding "performance boost (using cgroup, the notorious '4 lines of code better than 200' in user-space)", Salix OS LXDE with "the inclusion of slapt-src, a new tool that makes the process of downloading and building software packages from SlackBuilds.org simple and easy. Thousands of extra packages are now available through this new tool for our users".
At last, it remains to be seen if Tuquito LXDE improves on the sluggish performance of Lubuntu.
On the Mint, in a VBox vm with 450 MB of ram allowed and hosted by an old i686 and M$ XP, it works better than the former release but without being remarkably fast. The Salix OS LXDE keeps profiting from the new 13.1.2 base which works fine in any of the DE deployed by the devs team. What remains to be tested is the LXDE tuquito release to see if it can improve also on the MadBox. After some last updates almost all buntus 10.10 boot fast and are performing remarkably better and from the Ubuntu official derivatives Xubuntu is, in my virtual environment the best. Unfortunately the Netbook Unity's release can't boot due to some unspecified missing driver and logs only in the traditional "buntumised" gnome.
163 • @ jake (by Patrick on 2010-12-29 16:01:03 GMT from United States)
>>> Finally, a smart question, instead of knee-jerk reactions. Thanks for asking.
What is smart about the question "what's the speed of your machine"? And why is disagreeing with you synonymous with a knee-jerk reaction that is unworthy of follow-up? Sorry, but it makes it sound like you're interested only in "discussions" that allow you to throw around your age-old "wisdom", but you won't stoop to discuss anything that challenges said "wisdom". Instead you just stand back, shake your head condescendingly and say "tssk, tssk, tssk, kids these days...". Who knows, it may convince some. It did work on me for a while.
>>> My point stands, though ... These days, kids are taught top-down, not bottom-up. Not many of 'em even know the difference between the heap and the stack, and how the compiler uses them. Much less when it's a good idea to hand-massage the assembler output from the compiler ... or even that the compiler actually produces assembler, not ready-to-run executables. Toggling in boot-code would most likely make their brains explode.
It's been a while since I was in college, so I can't say much about what kids are taught in school these days. But in my day, which surely was more recent than yours, we got plenty of low level stuff and actually not enough high level stuff in my opinion. This might have been related to the fact that I was in Electrical Engineering, not Computer Science.
Anyway, I think that there are plenty of kids still learning the low level stuff, but not necessarily in Computer Science. I think you might find more of them in Electrical Engineering. And it makes sense. In the early days, computers were just some kind of electronics, and you needed to know quite a lot about electronics to be able to use one. As time progressed, computers came to encompass such a vast realm of knowledge and skills that it developed its own specialized fields of study. There is only so much one brain can specialize in. Not everyone needs to know the intricacies of the hardware to be able to make a useful contribution to Computer Science. But there are plenty of kids that still do.
As for myself, I spend most of my days writing code for 8-bit microcontrollers, where 64K of code space and 4K of RAM constitutes a "big chip". Most of my projects are bare-metal, without OS. Sometimes a 16 or 32-bitter sneaks in, but memory sizes don't get much over 128K of flash either way. I obviously have to think about stack usage all the time, and using a heap is mostly out of the question. I fondly remember doing a fixed-point quadratic temperature compensation and single wire communication protocol in 2K of ROM and 32 bytes of RAM, on a 4-bitter. Even using a stack was out of the question there.
I'm convinced that there are plenty of "kids" like me that are still involved in the bottom-up, low level stuff. You might not find as many percentage-wise, but that's because these skills aren't needed for everyone involved with computers. They are still present where they are needed. But I think it's a great thing that not everyone is learning about them, because that means others are specializing in different fields and using their skills to advance our technology in ways that are different, but just as worthy (or even more so) as the low-level stuff.
>>> "Oh and as far back as I can remember, my teachers always taught about software as defined by current dictionaries or Wikipedia."
Most dictionaries at schools are badly out of date, and Wikipedia isn't a valid source of anything ...
*lol* Oh jake, you just like to argue. What's the problem with a dictionary being out of date if you're trying to find the origin of a term? As long as the term in question is in the dictionary, I'd trust an old one even better than a new one since there's less chance that the information has been "colored" with the passage of time.
As for Wikipedia, most of it is OK, honestly. There really is a pile of useful information there, if you thread carefully and avoid controversial subjects. Of course, I had no clue the term "software" would ever turn out to be a controversial subject... ;-)
I'm still waiting for a source on your claim about the origin of the term software though. You don't trust dictionaries or Wikipedia, so where DO you get your information from? Even Wikipedia recognizes the value of citations. Or are we supposed to just trust whatever jake says because jake says so? Not going to happen, buddy. I'll trust an old dictionary or Wikipedia any day over some random guy and his unsupported claims.
164 • down-time? (by Tom on 2010-12-29 18:27:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :)
I know of some people that turn their machines off when they are asleep or out! They don't count it as down-time because they didn't need it up. But then most of them are Windows users and don't count the all-important reboots as down-time either.
Does anyone have the link to the article about a doctor doing surgery by remote when his Windows system decided that the surgery was less important than a reboot?
Also does anyone know where Wolvix ranks in the ratings these days?
Regards from Tom :)
165 • windows would do that (by Josh on 2010-12-29 18:34:41 GMT from United States)
Tom, is this the story you are referring to, I'd never read it...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/20/sheffield_conficker/
It doesn't mention the remote part and its not recent though. But, its all I found on google so far.
166 • Reboot at surgery time (by Barnabyh on 2010-12-29 21:08:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
That is a fantastical illustration of what you're in for with that OS, compounded more often than not by clueless managers. I can't believe they run hospitals like this, but have always been a bit naive.
Not only do they use Windows in theatre, they also do not have separate update policies for critical vs. non-critical machines, when they should really be on separate networks altogether.
When comparing myself to the person(s) being operated on during reboot makes 6 hours waiting in A&E like a walk in the park. No wonder Britain is known to have the worst health care in Europe, even coming behind Poland.
Sorry, not intended to start a war over who has better health care or offend nationalities !!!
167 • An advance! (by hab on 2010-12-29 21:24:14 GMT from Canada)
http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2010/12/putin-orders-russian-move-to-gnulinux.html
Prime Minister Putin may be a little more tech savy than previously thought. This kind of move could seriously impact uptake of free software.
I personally applaud the move.
Say what you will about Russians and their engineering but i would point out they produce a greater number of chess grand masters than any other earthly population.
As to the negative Debian comments earlier,
Wind, noting more, ...........just a tiny little air disturbance.
In some ways kinda like overhearing a kindergartners sand box comments!
cheers
168 • Re:159 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-30 05:05:38 GMT from United States)
O.k. so hertz is a sanctioned word, agreed upon by a group of people, as defining a standard which means cycles per second; I still prefer cps, to me cps has clearer meaning.
I also do understand the concept of software as being the state of the logic levels represented in hardware, the electronic equipment of a computer, only tangible via electric measurements etc. My guess is they say software because these states can and do change.
As far as software simply being a marketing term, well... how so?
I do recognise pound-force and pound-mass but I prefer slugs as to not be so confusing.
I also use kgs and cgs etc the SI units.
I may not be old or maybe I am, but I can build a computer from electro-magnetic relays if I had the parts and time, or use DTL, RTL, TTL, ECL, or whatever, like I mentioned I have luckily had many teachers along the way, funny since I rarely use more than a small fraction of any of this at work, things have as you said become top-down and a disposable commodity. This leads to mental laziness, I'm sure I was sharper years ago.
Due to your vagueness in replies, which I have witnessed with previous teachers, I do know some of my other classmates would take this as argumentive just for the sake of argumenting; whereas I in the past have found this method as a way that they taught, like you also said "to think for oneself". Am I right, or wrong?
Oh and my Debian 99.999% uptime is my way of saying that when my pc is on I simply have not witnessed any crashes from normal usage, mind you I do some really bad things with poor quality applications and can force crashes; this I do not count. (fork bomb)
At work we use DOS up to Win XP, and guess what?
DOS6.22 never crashes, the harware dies of old age first.
All of the Win systems do crash with XP being the most stable.
Funny thing is with work machines we use professionally written applications on professional operating systems (not community sponsered free os's) and that is what I see crashing most often.
On Debian I've only had issues if I left stable for testing or used a new stable very early on, before the first updates. Stable is stable, for me.
I do like Slackware, but there was a time when it was easier for me to get copies of Debian, and it worked quite well for me. After I figured out how Debian did system configuration as compared to Slackware I just kept with Debian, mostly for the apt system and the large, easily available repositories, which drasticly cut down my search for application programs I use or am curious about.
For me, computing is a toy or hobby, a recreation from my day job; but learning is also a hobby although many may disagree.
Once again thanks for everyones time and back to DWW.
169 • 168 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-30 05:26:17 GMT from United States)
That's Kilogram,Meter per Second (Newton)
not kgs, sorry. I make mistakes.
170 • @163 (by jake on 2010-12-30 11:13:05 GMT from United States)
"What is smart about the question "what's the speed of your machine"?"
The questioner was not assuming "here and now", but rather was taking time into the equation ... Read between the lines. It'll do you a world of good.
"And why is disagreeing with you synonymous with a knee-jerk reaction that is unworthy of follow-up?"
Don't put words in my mouth ... Sometimes when I don't respond to a specific comment, it's purely because I see no need to bother. In other words, your commentary stands alone, at least in my mind. Enjoy your island.
"I'm still waiting for a source on your claim about the origin of the term software though."
I didn't make any commentary on the origin of the term. My statement was based on observation of current usage.
"You don't trust dictionaries or Wikipedia, so where DO you get your information from?"
::sighs:: Yoof t'day ...
171 • @169 (by jake on 2010-12-30 11:17:25 GMT from United States)
"I make mistakes."
Welcome to the club. We're only human :-)
172 • Jake vs. Patrick (by Silent Majority on 2010-12-30 13:45:49 GMT from Canada)
The winner is…Patrick, because he doesn't claim he's run 16 businesses in the last 15 years, while relaxing at the ranch in the middle of no-where, on a 1500baud line in the rain, and continuously beating into us his retarded ideals gained from nearly 40 years in the computer business.
173 • post #172 (by Jon Thomsen on 2010-12-30 16:07:04 GMT from United States)
<<< and continuously beating into us his retarded ideals gained from nearly 40 years in the computer business. >>>
It seems/sounds a lot more like almost 40 minutes "pert neer" 40 years ago.
174 • Knee-jerks? (by sudonym on 2010-12-30 16:38:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
Actually, I think that diving in and 'correcting' someone who uses the 'wrong' terminology is a prime example of a knee-jerk reaction - it is an example of an ego/emotion driven resopnse and not a (properly) considered response at all.
None of us are perfect, and we all like to impress, but when you clearly understand the context (in what, after all, is common usage), yet choose to ignore the fact - then I reckon it's unfair.
Ok, I think the use of the word software is better suited for common consumption and ability of the majority to relate to. The word code is not relevant for the majorty - it could refer to an isolated line of code, or enough code to be capable of doing something. Even where syntax may be incorrect, the (broken) code is still code, but Software (even though still code), is generally regarded and accepted as something capable of producing results.
Even if (still to be shown), software were a marketing term - so what? How does it make the slightest difference to the recognised meaning of the word? Code is not relevant. Why bring it up?
Using the word code is ok in instances, but to infer that code is the correct or legitimate term outside those instances is just being snobbish.
Software being the current state of the hardware......Again, so what? It's irrelevant. And anyway, this abstract point is incomplete, as demonstrated for me by Patrick - I have no real knowledge in these things, but I can relate to the past and future state also for completeness.
Rather than 'current state', you should have used 'state' to avoid being it picked up by others (even though they might have known what you actually meant) :)
And how strange to mention dictionaries not being up to date!
I think it's a bit of a shame that people feed on the bones of the unwary/innocent in order to inflate themselves.
Everything is a compromise. Language is a compromise. Basically, I find it hard work. As long as we know what is meant then that should be fair enough. It's hard enough as it is.
175 • The real shoveller is.... (by Joke on 2010-12-30 17:05:33 GMT from Canada)
As you can see, he gave us a minute to contemplate it, and it's been a shovelfest ever since.
176 • Software doesn't exist. (by jake on 2009-11-17 06:26:46 GMT from United States)
Seriously. Software doesn't exist. So-called "software" is merely the current state of the hardware, as intended by the programmer(s). I'll give you a minute to contemplate that."
216 • I just remembered something that may or may not help ... (by jake on 2010-04-26 03:00:04 GMT from United States)
[2] There is no such thing as software ... software is merely the current state of the hardware.
109 • Hardware users. (Reply to 94) (by jake on 2010-05-14 05:20:43 GMT from United States)
[1] There is no such thing as software. Software is merely the current state of the hardware.
75 • @73 (by jake on 2010-06-08 06:06:25 GMT from United States)
(Hint: There is no such thing as "software", software is merely the current state of the hardware.
61 • Something everyone's missing. (by jake on 2010-06-15 02:08:51 GMT from United States) There is no such thing as "software" or "firmware". Both are merely the current state of the hardware.
122 • Source ... (by jake on 2010-12-19 02:27:59 GMT from United States)
As a side-note, there is no such thing as software. So-called software is merely the current state of the hardware.
176 • 1 day to go (by rs on 2010-12-30 17:21:13 GMT from United States)
This is the way the year ends
Not with a Squeeze but a Lenny.
I really wanted a 6.0 stable
177 • @170 (by Patrick on 2010-12-30 17:30:24 GMT from United States)
Ok, this is mostly degrading into a silly argument about who is right. So here is a last reply, mostly for the benefit of those who have some reason left.
>>> "What is smart about the question "what's the speed of your machine"?"
>>> The questioner was not assuming "here and now", but rather was taking time into the equation ... Read between the lines. It'll do you a world of good.
What would do you a world of good would be to sometimes read what the lines say, instead of just filling in what's between them with your own assumptions. In this case, later posts by the author of the question made it abundantly clear (@158) what the reason for his question really was: He wanted you to use the unit Hertz, so he could compare the usage of that term to the usage of the term "software".
The question had nothing to do with "here and now" or "taking time into the equation". That's what you thought he was talking about, and that's what you're still assuming he was talking about, and his later replies that clarified his intentions for the question and his line of thought haven't made a shred of difference to your opinion on what he meant. Between reality and jake's opinion, jake's opinion stands.
>>> "And why is disagreeing with you synonymous with a knee-jerk reaction that is unworthy of follow-up?"
>>> Don't put words in my mouth ... Sometimes when I don't respond to a specific comment, it's purely because I see no need to bother. In other words, your commentary stands alone, at least in my mind. Enjoy your island.
"In my mind", that's the key to this statement, and pretty much everything you say.
I'm perfectly happy on my island. We're all having a ball here.
>>> "I'm still waiting for a source on your claim about the origin of the term software though."
>>> I didn't make any commentary on the origin of the term.
@126, @140:
"So-called "software" is an invention of marketing departments."
From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/invention:
Definition of INVENTION
1
: discovery, finding
2
: productive imagination : inventiveness
3
a : something invented: as (1) : a product of the imagination; especially : a false conception (2) : a device, contrivance, or process originated after study and experiment b : a short keyboard composition featuring two- or three-part counterpoint
4
: the act or process of inventing
I (and apparently others who ended up discussing the origin of the word "software") had assumed you were referring to the primary definition of the word "invention", which would have implied you were discussing its origin, as in, who came up with it. Instead you seemed to have been referring to 3a (1). My bad.
>>> My statement was based on observation of current usage.
Then I suggest we should change the term "free software" to "free code". Tell Richard Stallman that he should fire his marketing department, they have too much influence on the terms he uses.
>>> "You don't trust dictionaries or Wikipedia, so where DO you get your information from?"
>>> ::sighs:: Yoof t'day ...
Yeah... Demanding evidence for your opinion, how disrespectful.
178 • #174 Geek-nerks (by zygmunt on 2010-12-30 18:10:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
[Soft/Firm/Hard/usw]-"wares" does it really matter from whence or how the modii-operandi derive? Whether the CPU instructions (documented or not ) and their possible "outcomes" (documented or not) resolve into a sequence of states that provide some service(s) (desired or not) for legitimate users (or others). One hopes to design a process to do only what is desired and to undesign all other possibilities.
179 • Surgeons reboot (by Tom on 2010-12-30 20:32:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
@165 Josh
Thanks. The story i heard was significantly different but the crucial line
"after PCs in an operating theatre rebooted mid-surgery"
could easily have morphed into the story i heard. Blimey, i didn't realise how old the story was.
@ everyone
Ok, so are there recent stories about how Windows suddenly deciding to reboot caused life-threatening risks? Was that what happened on the space station or did they just get a virus?
Regards from Tom :)
180 • @179 • Surgeons reboot (by Tom (by meanpt on 2010-12-30 22:28:26 GMT from Portugal)
: ... come on, Tom, we know doctors like to cut in spending and take their own laptops to surgery rooms :):):)
181 • Simpler last line for the spell command (by Pearson on 2010-12-30 22:37:27 GMT from United States)
sort complete_list.txt misspellings.txt | uniq -u
This uses the 'sort' command to combine the two files, sorted. Passing the '-u' tells uniq to only print lines that are not repeated (in this case, repeated lines will be the ones misspelled).
182 • those picks of 2010 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-30 23:53:21 GMT from New Zealand)
My award for the man who stuck with his dream goes to the maker of ImagineOS, once GoblinX. He just keeps going, albeit with the odd change of direction. Just had a look back at the CD from midyear with Xfce, I like it.
By the way, did you know that centuries ago theologians used to spend much time debating how many angels could dance on the point of a pin? Just fancy that!
183 • Distribution for 2010 (by Landor on 2010-12-31 00:41:28 GMT from Canada)
I can't say there is any specific distribution I found exciting, or enticing for 2010, not to demean any of the projects being worked on. When I returned to Linux a number of years ago, I was as excited as anyone, and found a lot of changes had been wrought since I left. Since then I've settled in and just kind of went back to what is normal for me, the command line, tinkering, and focused on FLOSS.
That said, what I've found the most exciting is the ability to tinker and build what I want, often duplicating at the least what is being offered in various distributions. If there's any one thing I'd say for someone to use, or do in Linux, it's a good solid base and try to build exactly what someone else has, or try to better it in some way.
Just to mention, the two distributions I always find myself doing the above with are Debian and Gentoo. Debian for it's simplicity, and the fact that you can do it all extremely quickly. Gentoo for the sheer level you can tweak your build. Gentoo's a lot faster now too, when you're building it on a quad core or the like. :)
To add to another discussion, I was told a number of times by some extremely well versed individuals exactly what Jake has been saying about software and hardware. These people were in the game longer than even Jake has stated being as well. So, I'd say it was a common understanding among the old guard, and something I personally never doubted given "their" understanding and education in the field. Nor is the concept that hard to understand either if you're experienced enough to see it from that angle.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
184 • natty alt reboots during install (by Chris H on 2010-12-31 01:18:34 GMT from United States)
The only natty version that I can get to finish the install is Dec 18 alt/debian installer, expert mode.
Newer versions all reboot early in the install.
Desktop versions all fail.
Does anyone have a fix? Ubuntu forum and Google are no help.
Chris H.
185 • software hardware (by Jack on 2010-12-31 01:59:27 GMT from Canada)
Maybe to the really old folks software was a state of the hardware, because you had to flip switches, jump wires and turn dials to get the hardware into a certain 'state', at which point you pressed a button and the 'answer' appeared as a bleeping light bulb in another room. In effect, the user was the 'software'. Well sorry to say, those days are long gone and 'software' is much more dynamic now, with the 'current state of the hardware' lasting just millionths of a second before being directed by the 'code' to do something else, based on a number of things including external inputs and internal conditions. Call it what you want; software, code, program, works of art, weird science, or black magic, just stop harping on the 'current state of the hardware' bs. As someone else said, we all understand the word "software", OK? It may have a slightly different meaning to each, but in general we understand what you mean when you say "software".
186 • Re:183 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-31 02:05:09 GMT from United States)
Your last paragraph. I couldn't agree more as lucky for me, I also have met people like that which you speak of.
187 • Misc. (by jake on 2010-12-31 06:37:47 GMT from United States)
Silent Majority: Not over, during. There is a major difference.
Jon Thomsen: I think you have clues. Read, comprehend, learn. There really are old-farts out here contributing to forums like this.
Joke: How long did it take you to come up with that compilation? Do you grok the term "spit the hook"? I don't troll in this forum (at least not on purpose), but sometimes the responses tickle my troll funny-bone.
Patrick: The second definition of "discovery", when applied to Marketing, should answer that question. And I don't think that I am in any place to speak for rms ...
Landor: Don't ever agree with me in public ... It'll only end in tears ;-)
jake's new year's resolution: Try not to look like a troll, even to the uneducated.
188 • RE: 187 (by Landor on 2010-12-31 07:02:54 GMT from Canada)
I found it amusing that so many jumped on the topic, especially Patrick though, and even more so when he pointed out "like to argue". :) ( BTW, Patrick, you honestly need to rethink your whole "hardware comes with firmware (code) embedded on it" argument, it doesn't really work, and it doesn't look good since you've had so long to think about it. When you figure out why, we'll discuss it if you like, not until though.)
But, two of the people that stated such were no less than university professors in the computer departments, from well known schools in and around my area ( Glenn who posts here from time to time should know both, or at least guess three, easily.). I'm quite sure that I'd take their word (and explanation) on the subject over what I'd read here from those that can't even truly understand it, but also don't even come close to having a background close to mine, let alone the gentlemen I'm discussing. You can always tell the ones that don't understand something for sure though, they're the ones that won't even give pause to consider it.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
189 • Re: "software" (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2010-12-31 13:01:21 GMT from United States)
In mymind, software is the code compiled for use on a system as an OS, application, driver or some other file(s). Jack in comment 185 has it right. Today's technologies have affected how we see software. Since every program is stored on magnetic or optical storage and compiled by other programs (Visual Studio e.g.), software as "current state of the hardware" may no longer apply.
190 • Re: 189 (by jake on 2010-12-31 13:31:48 GMT from United States)
You don't think of disk and tape storage as hardware? Think again ... ones & zeros encoded onto magnetic domains are most definitely a state of hardware. Same for more modern optical devices, although the read/write mechanisms are somewhat different.
191 • 2010end (by willi-amp on 2010-12-31 14:47:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
All computers consist of two significant and equally important parts, Hardware and Software.
If you can bite it, trip over it. or it hurts when you are struck over the head with it, it is Hardware. All the rest is Software, as any Computer World shop salesman could tell you.
Thank you all for keeping me entertained during the year, and may the coming New Year be kind to everyone.who contributes to DWW.
192 • md5 (by Anonymous on 2010-12-31 15:03:28 GMT from Canada)
Is it possible that MD5 is counter-productive?; If one just skips it and burns a cd and then tries to load it, either it loads or stops part way and at that point you can go online and give details to a forum.
(Assuming it loads at all)
Cd(s) are now less than a dollar each.
193 • Favorite Distro (by pfb on 2010-12-31 23:41:15 GMT from United States)
As I write this on Mandriva 2010.2, I must confess that my attempt a using Mandriva on the 8Gb flash memory was derailed by a gift from my son of another monitor. It seems Mandriva and my ATI obsolete All-In-Wonder 9600 do not get along. I am currently running Mint 10 in its place. And no, Mint 10 is not my current favorite. It does dual monitors but not correctly, as I cannot get the proper screen resolution.
However, I found that after a small gotcha while installing Mint 10 wiped out my XP, I now have a fresh reinstall of XP. And, darned if it doesn't work well!
I guess I have to fall back to Fedora as a favorite. Even if I can't get the damned numberlock to work right.
194 • Distros (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2011-01-01 00:39:40 GMT from United States)
So far, my distros are Kubuntu, Ubuntu, and openSUSE. They all have been very stable for me. For both Ubuntu and its KDE counterpart, I was able to do an in-place upgrade from 10.04 to 10.10 without any problems whatsoever.
My least is Fedora. My biggest problem was that X.org would freeze (no mouse or kb activity) using either the nouveau or nvidia drivers but not with vesa.
Re: 190, 191
I'ii give you that one, Jake, but the following comment to yours said it better than I could.
195 • Re: 191 (by jake on 2011-01-01 02:25:40 GMT from United States)
So the Apollo Program flight computers had no software?
Computer World isn't exactly a bastion of computing knowledge ...
196 • 195 (by sudonym on 2011-01-01 13:39:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
Your comment:
"Computer World isn't exactly a bastion of computing knowledge ..."
I think willi-amp (191), was actually being smarter than you gave him credit for.
197 • Re:195 (by Anonymous on 2011-01-01 20:32:13 GMT from United States)
Most people don't see things like you are describing.
The fact that software is simply the state and states to be of the hardware.
I would say software (as most know it) is a translation of those states to people.
Just as you would not directly be able to write down an exact copy of say a 1Ghz sine wave in real time, most people couldn't even hope to do the same for the hardware states as a computer is running. States which define the purpose of a general (or not) purpose computer.
If you stopped the computer clock on a static system you can measure those current hardware states, using measuring equipment. With dynamic or reactive state storage, once the refresh circuit stops, so goes the data. Maybe you should explain basic multi-vibrators or flip-flops, I don't think the general public would have ever noticed or been taught this.
This would add to the idea that most people (even here) simply just want their computer to do things for them and never know why or how that has happened.
Have you ever heard that vacuum doesn't exist, it is simply less pressure? (psia).
You can always increase pressure, but once the vacuum is zero psia, can one go beyond that?
DWW is a very interesting place, keep it up and thanks!
198 • For Jake. (by ILoveWildTurkey on 2011-01-02 02:59:42 GMT from Canada)
Definition of Software for those who've never seen it.
Intangible component of a computer system that imparts intelligence to otherwise useless pieces of metal and silicon called hardware.
:-)
199 • re, Topic (by willi-amp on 2011-01-02 19:25:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Even Hardware is only a transient state for that material between being dug out of the ground and being consigned to the scrap heap.
200 • @198, 199 & various moderators ... (by jake on 2011-01-03 04:44:01 GMT from United States)
198: I've heard that one before ... my answer to it is that not only do computers not have "intelligence", but trying to put labels on intangibles is religion, not science. And seeing as marketing is a new religion ... Q.E.D. ;-)
199: Exactly.
ladislav & crew ... I'll stop now. Thanks for the year-end indulgence. Hopefully I gave cause for a few people to think about computers in a slightly different manor, without causing too many headaches for you guys along the way. Keep on doing the wonderful job that you do ... Many folks around the world appreciate your efforts.
Hopefully, all reading this will have a prosperous year, and a better decade.
Number of Comments: 200
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