 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 374, 4 October 2010 |
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Welcome to this year's 40th issue of DistroWatch Weekly! Following Oracle's acquisition of Sun Microsystems, the well-known database company has ended up with a rather large number of important open-source software projects. An uncomfortable state of affairs for the open-source community, especially given the lack of clear assurances from Oracle's executives that these projects will continue their existence as free software. As a result, a group of prominent companies announced last week a fork of Oracle's OpenOffice.org and the creation of LibreOffice. Read the news section to find out more about this interesting event. In other news, Edubuntu developers prepare to launch their latest version with a number of new features, Fedora has published guidelines for upgrading to version 14 with "preupgrade", and the newly-formed Mageia project moves ahead with setting up the project's organisational and technical infrastructure. Also in this issue, a review of the Ubuntu-based, 100%-free Trisquel GNU/Linux and some advice on Linux advocacy techniques. Finally, we are pleased to announce that the recipient of the DistroWatch.com September 2010 donation is the Debian Multimedia repository. Happy reading!
Content:
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in OGG (17MB) and MP3 (19MB) formats
 Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
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| Feature Story (by Jesse Smith) |
Trisquel GNU/Linux - a free distribution
 It's not often I spend time with the GNU-approved free Linux distributions. There are two reasons for that; the first being that most of these 100%-free software distros are based upon other distributions with the naughty bits taken out. It doesn't interest me to try out the new Ubuntu and then try out the new Ubuntu-minus-blobs flavour. And I feel the same way about Fedora, which is already as close as it can get to being exclusively free software without stripping firmware blobs out of the kernel. So while I appreciate the ideology, making a more-free Fedora or Ubuntu sounds a bit like comparing vanilla ice cream with extra vanilla.
Trisquel GNU/Linux, I think, stands out in the otherwise tame GNU-endorsed herd. Their web site is attractive and easy to navigate. They have a growing user's manual and a small forum to help people. Their site supports five languages (English, French, German, Spanish and Galician). There are a number of download options for Trisquel. The project supplies 32-bit and 64-bit builds of a standard GNOME edition, there is a LXDE offering, and a network install image. The web site also mentions that "Pro" and "Educational" editions are available. The Trisquel project, in the spirit of openness, additionally provides a DVD image containing the project's source code on their download page. For my experiment, I elected to take the default GNOME 32-bit live CD.
Trisquel GNU/Linux 4.0 - browsing the project's web site
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The Trisquel distro has its roots in Ubuntu and that heritage is apparent from the start. The boot menu, which offers users a live environment, an installer, or a text installer, has the same basic layout and menus as Ubuntu. Booting into the CD's desktop gives us a GNOME 2.30 environment with a rainbow background. The application menu and task switcher are placed at the bottom of the screen and there are icons on the desktop for navigating the file system and running the installer. The application menu is nicely laid out with clear categories and program names. The menus have a high-contrast white text on a charcoal background which I personally find favourable.
Triquel's installer is, for all practical purposes, the Ubuntu installer. The user is asked to pick their language, confirm their time zone, and choose their keyboard layout. Partition creation is easy and the installer supports most Linux file system formats, including the ext family, JFS, XFS and ReiserFS. The user creates an account, sets the password and (optionally) selects the location of the boot loader. All of this went smoothly and my only complaint was the way the installer insists on grabbing information from the network. The current time is acquired from the Internet and, later, the installer tries to download files without asking. This may be an attempt to make sure everything is up to date upon first boot, but I found it unwelcome to have the installer pause to download items without first asking.
Trisquel GNU/Linux 4.0 - changing the settings
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Out of the box, Trisquel comes with the usual line-up of applications. There's Firefox (3.6.9), a BitTorrent client, an instant messaging client, OpenOffice.org, Evolution, GIMP, a webcam tool and a handful of games. There's an audio player, video player and Pitivi (a video editor). The application menu offers a disc burner, text editor and calculator. This being a GNOME desktop, there is a full collection of utilities to tweak settings, manage printers and create user accounts. Trisquel provides support for most common multimedia codecs out of the box, including video and MP3 files. Due to the project's commitment to free software, the distro does not have Adobe's Flash plugin. Trisquel instead includes the alternative Flash player - Gnash. I've found Gnash to be a bit hit-or-miss depending on which web site I'm on, but it usually works well enough to fill the role of the Flash player. Behind the scenes the OpenSSH secure shell server is installed and running by default. This surprised me a little as most aspects of the distro give the impression that Trisquel is aimed at beginners who aren't likely to make use of remote command-line tools.
There are two graphical package managers, one called Add/Remove Applications and the familiar Synaptic. For regular updates the system also provides a small Update Manager utility. Package management via Synaptic isn't anything new and the veteran software performs well, as usual. It is, however, placed in a secondary role. The Add/Remove Applications software manager is front and centre on Trisquel. It has a simplified layout with categories down the left side of the window. A list of packages and their ratings are displayed down the right side. A description of a selected package is shown at the bottom of the window. Adding new software is as easy as clicking a checkbox and hitting the Apply button. The "Remove" part of Add/Remove didn't work so well. I found the manager would generally remove programs I had added manually, but it would not remove packages which were pre-installed by Trisquel. I think this is due to a conflict with meta packages which define what is placed on the system at install time. At any rate, when the manager runs into these conflicts it recommends the user switch over to Synaptic to remove the offending package. As mentioned previously, Trisquel is developed using Ubuntu as a base, but the project has its own repositories which have been stripped of proprietary components.
Trisquel GNU/Linux 4.0 - managing software packages
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The Ubuntu family of distributions generally handles my hardware well and Trisquel was no exception. Everything worked on my desktop machine (2.5 GHz CPU, 2 GB of RAM, NVIDIA video card) and most things worked on my HP laptop (dual-core 2 GHz CPU, 3 GB of RAM, Intel video card). The only area in which I had trouble was with my Intel wireless card. Ubuntu detects and uses my wireless hardware out of the box, but Trisquel was unable to handle it. Otherwise, I was happy to find that sound worked properly, my desktop was set to an appropriate resolution and my touchpad worked as expected. In a virtual machine, I found that Trisquel would run with as little as 256 MB of memory, though at that point performance suffered. When running with 512 MB and higher, the distro performed gracefully. Trisquel additionally features integration with VirtualBox, making the experience more pleasant.
Overall, Trisquel comes across as a solid operating system. It's fairly polished and has a large repository. I like the layout and I found that performance was nicely balanced with eye candy. Being based on the most recent Ubuntu release, Trisquel 4.0 is a long-term support distro, giving users nearly three years of security updates. My only real complaint was the way Add/Remove Applications would fail to handle removing existing software. It does provide a clear workaround, but removing software strikes me as something an tool called "Add/Remove Applications" should handle.
Earlier in this review I mentioned that there were two reasons I usually don't use the 100%-free (as defined by the Free Software Foundation) distros. The second reason is that I believe there is a line between being in favour of one thing and being opposed to another. For instance, I am pro open-source software. Given the choice between a FOSS solution and a proprietary alternative, I would rather use the FOSS option. But in preferring libre solutions, I don't have anything against closed-source programs, their developers and users. Some FOSS-only distributions strike me as being more anti-proprietary than pro-free. The BLAG project's web site states the distro is working "to overthrow corporate control of information and technology". The dyne:bolic web site states their "software is one step in the struggle for redemption and freedom from proprietary, closed-source and resource intensive software." Frankly, I'm less interested in a revolution to over-throw something than I am in promoting open source and using FOSS wherever possible.
I bring this up because Trisquel feels, to me, to be more about promoting free and open source technology and showing people what can be done with FOSS than it is about ripping out the proprietary blobs. The project is more like a display of positive accomplishment, not a stand against something, and I like that. The Trisquel team has put together a solid distribution which manages to provide a good working platform without removing much functionality.
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| Miscellaneous News (by Ladislav Bodnar) |
Document Foundation forks OpenOffice.org into LibreOffice, new features in Edubuntu 10.10, upgrading to Fedora 14 with "preupgrade", Mageia infrastructure updates
 Perhaps the biggest news of the week was the unexpected announcement about a fork of OpenOffice.org, a popular multi-platform productivity suite. Originally maintained by Sun Microsystems, the software has passed into the hands of Oracle following its recent takeover of the troubled technology giant. But the open-source development community, suspicious of Oracle's motives, especially after it has halted the development of OpenSolaris and the general lack of communication regarding the open-source technologies now in Oracle's possession, has had enough. Early last week, a group of companies that include Red Hat, Novell and Google, set up Open Document Foundation, an organisation whose primary objective is to maintain and develop LibreOffice: "The Document Foundation is a newly founded organisation with a mission - to make an office suite available as truly free software, developed within the wider community. Supported by companies like Google, Novell and Red Hat, the Foundation has forked the Oracle-owned OpenOffice.org software and created LibreOffice. Worries about Oracle's commitment to OpenOffice have persisted within the OpenOffice.org community since the company's acquisition of Sun Microsystems." Several distributions, including Fedora and Ubuntu, have already indicated that their future releases will ship with LibreOffice instead of OpenOffice.org.
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 The end of this week (Sunday, the highly auspicious 10-10-10, to be precise) will see the arrival of a new version of Ubuntu and all of the official Ubuntu flavours. One of the more low-profile among them is Edubuntu, an Ubuntu variant specifically designed for deployment in schools. Luckily, unlike the developers of some other Ubuntu sub-projects, the Edubuntu folks has always been very vocal about their work, and the distribution's web site and blogs are always full of fresh information about the project's activities. Last week Jonathan Carter published another excellent blog post (with screenshots) detailing many the new features in Edubuntu 10.10: "This release wasn't as big a shake-up as the last one, but it's still a very good release for Edubuntu that builds on the work we did in the previous release. For 'Lucid' we moved completely to a graphical installation. After installation a user could choose from the live CD to install LTSP and the Ubuntu Netbook Remix interface. It worked great but it wasn't very intuitive. Many users who meant to install LTSP didn't quite know about it and hit the reboot button at the end of the installation and completely missed it. We decided to do it properly for 'Maverick' and have it integrated right there in the installer. GNOME Nanny is a relatively new addition in the GNOME family of tools. It works good for home or small classroom use, but it doesn't support groups yet so it's not particularly useful for large deployments yet. It has some good potential though and I hope it will just keep on getting better!"
Edubuntu 10.10 RC - the meerkat is out!
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 Less than a month from now a new stable version of Fedora will become available from a download mirror near you. As always, the next few weeks will be crucial in fixing the remaining bugs and making sure that the product is released in a best possible shape. Those readers who are still running Fedora 13, but would like to help with last-minute debugging could consider upgrading their system with PreUpgrade. Fedora developer Masami Ichikawa tried the process over the weekend and found it to be rather straightforward and painless: "When the preupgrade command is finished, you need to reboot your system. By the way, if you reboot your machine, it take some time to see boot messages, so you'll see just a black screen for a while but don't worry. It'll start Anaconda soon. Then anaconda starts installing packages. When anaconda finishes package installation and the upgrade process, it'll reboot your machine; then you'll be able to login new Fedora Linux. When I logged in, I needed to upgrade packages. I had about 200 packages to update. During the upgrade process, I didn't see any problems; also I haven't seen critical problems in casual use e.g. use WiFi connection by WPA2, run Firefox, watch YouTube, writing Japanese, send and receive email by Thunderbird, run command from GNOME terminal and so forth."
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 Anne Nicolas, the former Director of Engineering at Mandriva and now (presumably) the main PR person at the newly-formed Mageia, has published an update on the status of the project. It seems that everything is moving forward at a rapid pace and it won't be long before the world is presented with a Cooker-like package repository called "Cauldron". In the meantime, the Mageia non-profit association is being registered today (Monday) in Paris: "The Mageia association is going to be registered on Monday with an official publication in about a month (once reviewed by the French administration). A Mageia manifesto is in progress. We provided a list of items to help Graham Lauder and some marketing and communication guys to work on a first draft." In terms of technical progress, here is the latest (from the same article): "For the hardware infrastructure, we received proposals for servers and hosting. We now have the hardware to be able to setup a build system and host the main services. We already started setting up a virtual machine offered by gandi.net which we will use soon to host the web sites and blog. Regarding the hosting of the other servers, we have a proposal for one year and are already working on a longer-term solution."
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| Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith) |
Advocating Linux and free software
Spreading-the-love asks:How do you advocate Linux (or FOSS in general) to people?
DistroWatch answers: For starters, I almost never use terms like "free" and "open source". I've also found conversations involving "community supported" tend to conclude poorly. Those points may seem important to members of the Linux community, but they tend to give the impression that Linux is a hobbyist creation that shouldn't be taken seriously. (Mentioning that something is free brings up the "you get what you pay for" issue.) Personally, I think the hardest thing to overcome when pitching open source software to someone is to forget why you like the software.
The persons you are advocating to aren't interested in why you use the software, they're interested in why they might like the software. And that will vary from person to person. It's important to find out what the other person is interested in and appeal to that. As an example, I got a fellow hooked on Linux who was always downloading things. Anything, really. Once I pointed out he could download just about anything on GNU/Linux without worrying about malware. He was interested. With a friend of mine, who is a casual computer user, it was the games which come with most distros (Frozen Bubble and Same Game) that won them over. I've interested quite a few people in Firefox by demonstrating it alongside other browsers and comparing performance, stability and features. One of the few pieces of software I've managed to advocate primarily on its price is OpenOffice.org. Being free is a nice touch when other big-name office suites have a hefty price tag.
The important thing to remember is that most people aren't going to switch their applications or operating system out of ideology. Most people need to see a practical benefit. Being free (as in beer) usually isn't helpful because the other person already has their software. Keeping it rarely costs anything. Switching, even if it comes without a price tag, takes time and effort. So it's important to find what they will see as a benefit and match that with appropriate software.
I got one person interested in Linux in a way which surprised me. The fellow scanned a lot of documents for his job and, when I demonstrated Linux for him, we found his scanner worked about five times faster using the Linux software. Obviously the extra speed was a huge asset to his work flow. So the best advice I can give for advocating software is to sit down with a person, find out what they do and what they need. Then offer to take some time walking through the tasks using open-source software and see if it appeals to them. When people are interested in the product and ask about the price, I usually tell them it's a demo they can keep. People are more familiar with free samples than with free finished products.
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| Released Last Week |
Sabayon Linux 5.4
Fabio Erculiani has announced the release of Sabayon Linux 5.4: "On the behalf of the Sabayon Linux team, we are happy to announce the immediate availability of Sabayon Linux 5.4 KDE and GNOME editions. Features: more than 1,000 updated packages since Sabayon 5.3 and more than 100 bugs (stability, usability and performance) fixed; shipped with desktop-optimized Linux kernel 2.6.35; providing extra server-optimized, OpenVZ-enabled and VServer-enabled kernels in repositories; installable in 10 minutes; fast boot time and lightweight default system; ext4 file system as default; official Btrfs file system support; encrypted file system support; featuring X.Org 7.5 and up-to-date open-source, NVIDIA and AMD video drivers; containing GNOME 2.30 (with GNOME Shell) and KDE 4.5.1...." The complete release announcement can be found on the project's user forum.
CRUX 2.7
Tilman Sauerbeck has announced the release of CRUX 2.7, a minimalist Linux distribution designed for intermediate and advanced users: "I'm announcing the release of CRUX 2.7. Release notes: toolchain updates - CRUX 2.7 includes glibc 2.12.1, GCC 4.5.1 and Binutils 2.20.1; Linux kernel 2.6.35.6; X.Org 7.5 and X.Org Server 1.9.0; to save space, all packages shipped with the image are compressed with xz, which requires a new version of pkgutils, a gz compressed package of pkgutils has been placed the /tools subdirectory; besides the usual ISO image, an image suitable for USB thumb drives is available from our download mirrors. New features in pkgutils: in addition to gzip, pkgmk has been enhanced to optionally compress newly built packages with bzip2 or xz; pkgutils can read packages that have been compressed with bzip2 and xz in addition to gzip...." Read the release announcement and release notes for further information.
iMagicOS 10
Carlos La Borde has announced the release of iMagicOS 10, a commercial desktop Linux distribution based on Ubuntu, but featuring the KDE 3 desktop: "Welcome to iMagic OS 10. Intuitive, fast, and smart. Based on the latest Linux technology, with upgraded software, a faster boot time, parental web filtering, and loaded with codecs and innovations, iMagic OS 10 sports an improved KDE 3.5 interface with easier file management and better magicOnline support. Features: magicOnline - improved and running smoother than ever, iMagic OS users can head over to magicOnline and browse from an extensive online catalog of hundreds of free, commercial and proprietary programs, games and drivers; Windows Software - iMagic OS 10 comes with an updated Windows application installer based on WINE framework...." Read the rest of the release announcement for more details.
Peppermint OS Ice-10012010
Shane Remington has announced the availability of a new respin of Peppermint OS Ice, a lightweight, user-friendly distribution with built-in cloud technologies: "We are proud to announce the release of Peppermint OS Ice-10012010, the first respin of our 'Ice' release. It offers a fully updated system as of October 1st, 2010 and comes with a number of bug fixes, some new features, and some other miscellaneous goodies. The default Linux kernel has been updated to version 2.6.35. In an effort to continually try to offer the best possible hardware support, we felt this was a good move for the Ice release. A number of lower-level updates, such as Grep 2.7.0, Samba 3.5.5, File 5.04, FreeType 2.4.2 and others have been implemented in order to offer a more up-to-date system while remaining on the Ubuntu LTS code base." Read the complete release announcement for further information.
Peppermint OS Ice-10012010 - a lightweight distribution with Openbox based on Ubuntu
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Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
September 2010 DistroWatch.com donation: Debian Multimedia repository
We are happy to announce that the recipient of the September 2010 DistroWatch.com donation is the Debian Multimedia repository. It receives €200.00 in cash.
The Debian Multimedia repository is a project of Christian Marillat, a well-known Debian developer. It is described as an "unofficial repository of media utilities that cannot be included in main, contrib, or nonfree due to patents and other problems." In other words, Christian's repository is an essential addition to every desktop Debian user's apt.sources list as it contains essential media codecs, various media players with support for popular formats, and even some non-free utilities, such as Acrobat Reader, Flash Player or w32codecs. This is a well-tested repository for all available Debian releases from "oldstable" to "unstable" and for a number of processor architectures. For more information please read the FAQs on the project's web site.
After receiving the donation, Christian emailed DistroWatch with a brief thank-you message: "As I've received a donation from DistroWatch for the Debian Multimedia repository, I just want to said thank you. Ordinary words, but I'm very happy."
Launched in 2004, this monthly donations programme is a DistroWatch initiative to support free and open-source software projects and operating systems with cash contributions. Readers are welcome to nominate their favourite project for future donations. Those readers who wish to contribute towards these donations, please use our advertising page to make a payment (PayPal and credit cards are accepted). Here is the list of the projects that have received a DistroWatch donation since the launch of the programme (figures in US dollars):
- 2004: GnuCash ($250), Quanta Plus ($200), PCLinuxOS ($300), The GIMP ($300), Vidalinux ($200), Fluxbox ($200), K3b ($350), Arch Linux ($300), Kile KDE LaTeX Editor ($100) and UNICEF - Tsunami Relief Operation ($340)
- 2005: Vim ($250), AbiWord ($220), BitTorrent ($300), NDISwrapper ($250), Audacity ($250), Debian GNU/Linux ($420), GNOME ($425), Enlightenment ($250), MPlayer ($400), Amarok ($300), KANOTIX ($250) and Cacti ($375)
- 2006: Gambas ($250), Krusader ($250), FreeBSD Foundation ($450), GParted ($360), Doxygen ($260), LilyPond ($250), Lua ($250), Gentoo Linux ($500), Blender ($500), Puppy Linux ($350), Inkscape ($350), Cape Linux Users Group ($130), Mandriva Linux ($405, a Powerpack competition), Digikam ($408) and Sabayon Linux ($450)
- 2007: GQview ($250), Kaffeine ($250), sidux ($350), CentOS ($400), LyX ($350), VectorLinux ($350), KTorrent ($400), FreeNAS ($350), lighttpd ($400), Damn Small Linux ($350), NimbleX ($450), MEPIS Linux ($300), Zenwalk Linux ($300)
- 2008: VLC ($350), Frugalware Linux ($340), cURL ($300), GSPCA ($400), FileZilla ($400), MythDora ($500), Linux Mint ($400), Parsix GNU/Linux ($300), Miro ($300), GoblinX ($250), Dillo ($150), LXDE ($250)
- 2009: Openbox ($250), Wolvix GNU/Linux ($200), smxi ($200), Python ($300), SliTaz GNU/Linux ($200), LiVES ($300), Osmo ($300), LMMS ($250), KompoZer ($360), OpenSSH ($350), Parted Magic ($350) and Krita ($285)
- 2010: Qimo 4 Kids ($250), Squid ($250), Libre Graphics Meeting ($300), Bacula ($250), FileZilla ($300), GCompris ($352), Xiph.org ($250), Clonezilla ($250), Debian Multimedia ($280)
Since the launch of the Donations Program in March 2004, DistroWatch has donated a total of US$25,610 to various open-source software projects.
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New distributions added to database
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New distributions added to waiting list
- Quelitu. Quelitu is a fast, lightweight, and user-friendly Linux operating system based on Lubuntu and designed for use in older computers or for lightning speed in more recent models. It is released by Waves of the Future as part of a global environmental project aiming to increase the worldwide recycling and reuse of older computers by refurbishing them to the fastest and latest standards. Like many Linux distributions, Quelitu is multilingual but has a special focus on English, French and Spanish.
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DistroWatch database summary
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This concludes this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 11 October 2010.
Jesse Smith and Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Whatever happened with Gentoo? (by uz64 on 2010-10-04 09:29:16 GMT from United States)
Gentoo releases used to be posted as they were released on the front page of this site and it used to be covered in DWW occasionally, but I noticed I haven't read anything about it in a long time. Last I read about it, IIRC, was way back when there was some bad news regarding the ownership of Gentoo and maybe the release of the GUI live DVD. Curious, I went to their site and noticed that there's a very recent version, while the last version to be announced on DistroWatch was almost a year ago. I'm not a Gentoo user, but I'm curious why that is--why does Gentoo never get any coverage any more? Is there really nothing going on in the world of Gentoo, or is Distrowatch specifically focusing on easier and more popular distros for the masses?
I noticed Sorcerer has a new version out too... yet I don't even remember the last time I saw one of its releases announced here... given that the developer wants excessive control and has gone so far as to disallow forking (spawning Lunar Linux and Source Mage), maybe that's it...
2 • About Advocating Linux and free software (by Alexandru Popa on 2010-10-04 09:48:44 GMT from Germany)
Being some time the technical redactor of Linux Magazine Romania, I had several people that switched to Linux from Windows.
Each time I started from saying that in order to use Linux it isn't necessary to drop Windows. These 2 OSes can co-exist on the same box. Then I installed Linux along with Windows, so that he or she can compare their strong and weak sides. After that I showed how to do in Linux things they usually did in Windows. After some time several users asked me to erase Windows.
There are 3 most important reasons (in Romania) why users drop Windows after being comfortable with Linux:
1. Price (is important in Romania).
2. Anti-virus software they're forced to run slows down their PS.
3. Linux file-systems are more practical for storing large collection of small files in deep directory hierarchy.
There is an important reason why users want to stay with Windows - "that one piece of software which is available for Windows only". In many cases these are games.
3 • RE: 1 Whatever happened with Gentoo? (by ladislav on 2010-10-04 09:54:07 GMT from Taiwan)
The DistroWatch policy is to announce only those releases that are also publicly announced on the projects' web sites (or which are accompanied by release notes, changelogs, etc.). Sorcerer does not have a news page and does not publicly announce anything. I have an impression that they don't want to be known outside of their intimate domain where a handful of guys meet to discuss the "magic". It's a good project though, lots of unique concepts.
As for Gentoo, it's the same rule. Once they make a release and announce it on their web site, you'll see the release announcement on DistroWatch too. Unfortunately, official Gentoo releases are increasingly few and far between, so the distro tends to stay out of the news.
4 • About Advocating Linux and free software (by George Mamakis on 2010-10-04 10:15:10 GMT from Greece)
I generally tend to think that advocating Linux and free software is only possible with non-gamers (I refer to the ones that do not spend 600 EUR in order to buy the latest graphics card to play Assassin's Creed 7), and those that have time to spare to see into the pros and cons of software. E.g. it was easy to talk colleagues into switching into Linux for a number of projects since we wanted to keep the same basis we decided in the early beginnings. Through that they saw what suited them in Linux and what not, and almost everyone went from "let's give it a try" to "we'll stick with it, who needs games after all". E.g.2. People that are computer indifferent tend to use whatever you tell them; my mom for example has been using Vector Linux for the past 1 year without any complaint whatsoever. Casual users that only need specific tasks to accomplish, e.g. I want to be able to use Facebook, MSN messenger, Skype, Twiitter, open pdf files (use Acrobat Reader they will feel more acquainted), write documents (yes OpenOffice defaulting to saving to .doc will do the trick) and use my camera to take pictures of me - these ar the greatest switchovers IMHO. The most "difficult" users are the ones that either have specific work that cannot be accomplished elsehow (you will never advocate a CAD user for example),and the ones holding semi-knowledge (gabe it a spin in the age of KDE2 or Gnome 0.9) when everything was too geeky to do, and certainly not their taste.
5 • Windows... (by hob4bit on 2010-10-04 10:20:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
Well, I dropped Windows for a few years now. I use Windows XP in a VMware session for the software I need to test and necassary evils of work. In fact at work with have standardised on Linux for nearly ten years.
I only play FREE Open Source games. I have games console for commercial games.
6 • Advocating free software (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 10:21:18 GMT from France)
I have been successful advocating free software using only ideological arguments. The people I have been advocating to had to learn a new system and it was hard for little technological benefit but they happily switched because of the ideology.
It depends on the people you are talking to but I believe the ideology is the single most important asset of free software. Actually I don't see the point in advocating linux on technical merits. It is a good system and it speack for itself. If I feel the will to advocate free software myself, it because of the ideology. Making someone switch without letting him know about the philosophical ideal behind free software would be some kind of failing. Conscious users are more valuable in my opinion. I prefer users asking free software to be the same as proprietary software to run proprietary software.
7 • What price the OS? (by Strutter on 2010-10-04 11:16:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
It must be a decade(?) since the US Senate(Congress?) decided that computer operating systems were far too important to society for it to be associated with sordid capitalist greed (I paraphrased that bit) let alone in the hands of a monopoly.
What happened?
8 • Great DWW (by Pumpino on 2010-10-04 11:22:08 GMT from Australia)
What a great DWW. News about LibreOffice, PreUpgrading to Fedora 14 and Mageia. Good to see OpenOffice and Mandriva's great work continuing in a way that should result in them being around long-term.
9 • "libre" and IBM's Smart Suite (by flon on 2010-10-04 11:48:27 GMT from Brazil)
About oo.o fork and "libre": RedHat, Google, Novell...
And IBM, owner of 'Smart Suite'? This great office suite is in the freezers of the blue giant for years. Maybe, waiting for this moment to open its sources?
This association could be an incredible impulse to FOSS, at the center of software competition!
But... I'm only dreaming.
10 • Advocating free software (by rich on 2010-10-04 11:57:12 GMT from United States)
I sometimes make a comment about Linux to people that use Windows. Biggest problem is that many of them know little or nothing about Linux and use Windows on their computers to play 'games'. (A total waste of a good computer IMHO). Many of them can't understand the 'free' mentality of Linux and why would anyone produce software of any value for everyone to use that doesn't cost money. Having said that I just smile and walk away realizing 'ignorance is bliss' to many of them.
Rich
11 • Freedom (by koroshiya.itchy on 2010-10-04 12:07:14 GMT from Belgium)
For many people freedom is the most important reason for using free software. If it is well explained, most people can understand that freedom, and therefore free software, is important. Then, of course, some of them will be ready to switch and others will not. Never mind. Personally, I would not waste one minute trying to convince of using free software someone who is unable to understand the importance of freedom or just thinks it is not important at all. Such users would become a pain for the community. Let Microsoft take care of them. Only free people can build a free system.
12 • Advocating free software (by fernbap on 2010-10-04 12:17:49 GMT from Portugal)
Advocating free software applies to a specific market: the consumer desktop market, mostly windows users.
That is a fact, and Linux is not very good on that market, with the notable exception of Ubuntu, amongst the "big ones".
Presenting a live CD to a windows user, that he boots from only to realise that it doesn't play mp3 files is an imediate defeat. He won't get to the "you need to install it in order to add the codecs" fase. He will just give up on the spot.
Understanding the consumer desktop market is the first step you need to make, if you want to advocate free software.
People could care less about open source. They are used to it already, they are probably already using free software on their windows, like Firefox, VLC, OO, winamp, etc. Being open source or not is irrelevant to them, at that stage.
13 • Show, Not Tell (by Tidux on 2010-10-04 12:32:57 GMT from United States)
I've found one of the best ways to advocate for FOSS, (GNU/)Linux in particular, is to use it in public. I bring my netbook running Debian to class with me, use it in the library, and it's my ebook reader on the bus. It's clearly not running Windows (KDE's netbook Plasma workspace), so it's a great conversation piece. Heck, it even got the attention of a guy I played football with in high school. The fact that my operating system and programs are LEGALLY free, and that I never have to worry about viruses, is pretty appealing once people find out. Ideology only really works when people understand enough about computers to know what source code is, and what free access to it might entail, or if they're seriously anti-corporate.
14 • Re:11 (koroshiya) (by Leo on 2010-10-04 12:41:44 GMT from United States)
Thanks,
I think Jesse missed the most important point for many of us, and really the focus of the FSF: Free as in Freedom, or Libre. Not Free as in "Free beer". And people do care about freedom. People, wrong or right, even go all the way to fighting and dying for what they consider a way to freedom, so, yes, we humans DO care about this little word :)
Cheers,
Leo
15 • Advocates (by Tom on 2010-10-04 12:50:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
Jesse thanks for the brief article, that about sums it up for the corporate world in England and it is good to see pitfalls and work-arounds addressed.
People prefer the official CDs from Ubuntu rather than my home-made Cds with my awful writing. Letting them know the trial version is only for office type usage helps avoid the multimedia issues.
People like to directly see corporate support and seldom listen to words about companies they have never heard of, such as RedHat, Novell or Cannonical. An official CD (even tho it is not covered in expensive holograms and other marketing BS) still gives people the impression that they are dealing with a "proper company".
Hopefully Jesse's advice might be able to help me turn around my low success rate. "Trial version" rather than something that sounds like Freeware is a good move
Regards from
Tom :)
16 • RE: 9 (by ep on 2010-10-04 12:54:05 GMT from United States)
What advantages would SmartSuite have over libreoffice? I've never used SmartSuite, but I have tried the Lotus Symphony before briefly. I'm just curious as I don't know anything about the software. How does it compare to Office in Windows?
17 • Freedom (by Tom on 2010-10-04 12:54:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
No, people do not care about freedom. Think about how many people turn out to vote in most democracies today. Or how many people follow some sort of uniform/fashion code dictated by the media or their mates. People don't want to think for themselves they want to be told what to do, what to buy, what to watch, how to dress and all the rest. Linux is for Free thinkers and that will always be a minority.
18 • Linux advocacy (by Barista Uno on 2010-10-04 12:59:02 GMT from Philippines)
As a convert to Linux since the start of 2009, I have refrained from trying to convert other others. It's enough that I have found an alternative OS. Live and let live - that's freedom.
19 • to fernbap (by koroshiya.itchy on 2010-10-04 13:01:15 GMT from Belgium)
If free software is irrelevant to them, that's fine for me. I am no messiah. If freedom is irrelevant for them, then they are also irrelevant for the free software community. We should concentrate on people for whom, once properly explained, freedom is not completely irrelevant. Those are more likely to become productive members of the community, if they want to. I am more interested in quality than in quantity.
A different question : I have not tried any MS Windows product lately. The most recent I know was Windows XP. In Windows XP, many drivers were not installed out-of-the-box, you had to download them from the internet or install them from some installation CD. Same goes for many video and audio formats. If you wanted to play DivX you had to download the codecs from the internet. Maybe this is different in Windows 7. I don't know. Most GNU/Linux distros make it more easy to install drivers and codecs (even proprietary ones). There are two kind of problems : 1) Legal/ethical ones; and 2) Commercial ones. Problem one is easy to solve because there is always a distro which will struggle to give you a complete out-of-the-box experience (Mint, Sabayon, etc). Problem two is more complicated. It comes from the fact that most hardware producers make their products and drivers with Windows in mind. So they do their best to produce Windows-compatible drivers and to include those drivers in the Windows CD or, if not possible, in another CD. In other words, most of the time, Microsoft does not have to do anything to adapt to the wide diversity of hardware and hardware configurations in the market. Its privileged monopolistic position makes the entire hardware (and software) industry to be working for Microsoft. In turn, GNU/Linux and other free systems have not do an enormous effort to adapt to that diversity. Adaptation which is further compounded by the fact that may producers do not provided the technical specifications of their products and that reverse-engineering is an offense in most countries. Furthermore, many pieces of hardware of software are ill-designed and do not comply with the standards, but it happens that producers do not care about that as far as their products work more or less fine with MS Windows. Free software potential users must be aware of this, because this is the reality today. So if you want to use free software, first you have to choose your hardware carefully and second you have to choose the right distro for you. If you don't do this, and you are unlucky, most likely you will still be able to make everything work as you wish to, but you will have to invest time and effort and be ready to learn a few things. Then, for games and so on, that's not my business. Go and ask Canonical to code games.
20 • #11, #14: I must be a "pain to the community" (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-10-04 13:02:00 GMT from United States)
My reasons for advocating Linux and other FOSS solutions is simple: it's the proverbial better mousetrap. Peer review results in better code at lower cost. More eyes on the code means that bugs get weeded out sooner, security vulnerabilities get spotted and fixed quickly, and so on. The argument for Linux over Windows to me comes down to purely pragmatic reasons: performance, security and cost.
I have never bought into the FSF arguments about ethics and morals. The FSF would have you believe using proprietary software is somehow evil. Sorry, no, I don't buy into that. Freedom must include the freedom to choose proprietary solutions as well. If it didn't I'd have to find another line of work as I have never seen a business or organization that didn't have some proprietary code. Most also have FOSS code, which is good.
Most people do NOT understand the concept of freedom as used by the FSF and their supporters. Most people don't ever look at source code. I see that "freedom" as a means to an end. It also provides an effective alternative to the near-monopoly Microsoft has on the desktop with their 83% market share. (That number came from Microsoft CEO Steven Balmer at the Windows 7 launch. It may actually be closer to 80%.) To me the real freedom is freedom of choice, including the choice not to choose FOSS.
So, no, my advocacy never centers around "freedom" as "free" software advocates define it. I already know some people consider me a "pain to the community" so that is nothing new. However, I suspect many, many more people choose Linux for the reasons I do than because of ideology.
21 • advocacy choices (by Tom on 2010-10-04 13:11:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
There are many good reasons to choose linux. Letting an individual stumble upon the reason that would make it good for them is smart. Malcolm X was good for civil rights but so were other people and yet the struggle is still not over. It takes all sorts.
22 • @19 (by fernbap on 2010-10-04 13:23:13 GMT from Portugal)
"If freedom is irrelevant for them, then they are also irrelevant for the free software community."
Oh really? First of all i said it was irrelevant for them at that stage. You can't expect a windows user to even be familiar with the concept. Convince him to use Linux, and then he will start to understand what free software is.
"I am more interested in quality than in quantity"
Who is the judge? You? I thought you valued freedom.
23 • how to explain freedom (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 13:23:23 GMT from France)
Non technical people who do not know what source code is can still understand what software freedom is about. You just have to let them actually read the EULA of the proprietary software they use. Show them the time bomb that the proprietary software they use is. In my country, there is the new HADOPI that you must have heard about. People are very angry at that. I point to them the way around HADOPI and the future of it, which will be even worse. People understand that their interests are not aligned with proprietary software. They understand that free software aligns their interest with the software developers and vendors. They are fed up with low quality software, cryptic EULAS that is always against them, intrusive adverts, vendors that hold their documents in hostage and trojan horses labelled as service. They do not trust vendors when they need support anymore. On the other hand, when they see the support forums I show them, that is like a bit of fresh air. They can trust the information, and they don't have to parse the adverts from the information. They can talk with peers and feel the community spirit. That is a freedom they appreciate.
24 • Advocating free software (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 13:29:04 GMT from Brazil)
Don't know if mentioned, but FOSS also allows older machines to run up-to-date software. Furthermore, this simple action has a "green" spin. Check these two articles, which casually have appeared to my eyes:
http://www.osnews.com/story/23451/Smart_Reuse_with_Open_Source_Linux_Goes_Green
http://www.osnews.com/story/23526/Scandal_Most
25 • @23 (by fernbap on 2010-10-04 13:33:13 GMT from Portugal)
"Non technical people who do not know what source code is can still understand what software freedom is about......."
You make a very good point, and i can tell by my own experience: what made me abandon windows for good was when i read the changes MS made in the EULA for Vista, that made me decide that i would NEVER install Vista in any of my computers.
26 • @20 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 13:36:22 GMT from France)
Pleae don't take offense but I don't agree with you. Free is always better than proprietary. What you are saying is that freedom is about having the choice between being free or being a slave. That is logically wrong. freedom is about being free. If you choose to be a slave you are no longer free.
27 • An example (by koroshiya.itchy on 2010-10-04 13:38:59 GMT from Belgium)
That said, freedom is not only about ideology, for it has significant practical implications. For instance, a few of my friends works as translators for the European institutions. For those who do not know, the European institutions, together or just the European Commission alone, are by far the biggest translation body in the world. Putting together the Commission, the Parliament, the Center for Translation, the Court of Justice and the different agencies, there are several thousand translators which translate millions of pages per year. All these guys use proprietary operating systems (100% Microsoft), proprietary translation software and proprietary administration software. How much money from our pocket this means in terms of software licenses I can not even imagine (and maybe it is better like this). But there is more than that. As the hardware gets older it also becomes slower because the OS and other software upgrades are intended precisely to do that. On top of that, each computer (and the servers) need to be running all the time updated antivirus, antispyware, etc. (can you imagine what would happen if a server gets infected?). If they want to upgrade to Windows 7, they will probably need 2G of RAM per computer, faster processors and more powerful graphics cards. Again, the investment would be astronomical, it would be "cheaper" just to replace all the equipment. Then, the system (both the OS, the proprietary translation software and the administrative software) is giving troubles all the time. This means a lot of frustration for the translators and many hours of works wasted. If they want MS and other software providers to adapt their products to the needs of the European institutions, if possible at all, this would require a long time and would cost a lot of money. Therefore, the EU has to adapt to a buggy, inefficient and expensive software. Most politicians are happy with this situation because for them this is the "free market" and they are neo-liberal (thus, indeed, there is an ideology, but it is on the other camp). Translators are not so happy. For me, it is clear that for the EU it would be much cheaper and more efficient to hire a team of developers and to have there own operating system and translation tools. Starting from any pre-existing distro, they could easily have a system tailored exactly to their needs, reliable, secure (like OpenBSD) and cheap. They would have in-house (and also if required, in external private companies or even in the FOSS community) a team of experts able to correct, improve and adapt every bit of the software in a reasonable time frame. For the translation tools the situation is a bit more complicated, but it would be just a matter of time to develop professional-quality tools (these could be developed by the public sector or by the private sector, it does not matter, but it is important that the software is free so that it can be corrected, improved and tailored as required). However, this is not happening, among other reasons, because there are thousands of lobbyists in Brussels whose job is to make sure that things will always be done irrationally for the great profit of their employers. In addition, I have already mentioned that neo-liberal religion which dominates the European Commission and that would not allow any heretic deviation from their notion of "free market". I ask again, where is the ideology here?
28 • To fernbap and Caytlin: I am no judge (by koroshiya.itchy on 2010-10-04 14:13:51 GMT from Belgium)
They are their own judges. They are the ones to decide whether or not they are interested in free software. Of course, I would welcome them in, but I am not going to try to persuade into free software somebody who refuses to value free software. It is not that I am against explaining the technical reasons for such a move, every good reason is by definition a good reason ;) What I said is that I am not going to waste my time in endless debates about performance and blah, blah, blah. In my own experience, such users will be disappointed if they do not see the full picture. And this for a good reason, free OSs can be rather frustrating as well, we now it well, and you have to be motivated and ready to learn. If you are not, maybe it is better for you to wait before making the move.
In addition to that, most technical reasons are debatable. Is a community-based strategy more efficient? I would say it is, but then Steve Balmer would say that is bullshit and that if they control the market it is for a good reason. Is free software intrinsically more secure? I have little doubts about it, but I am sure that are out there thousand of experts in security (which I am not) that would swear I am wrong and that nothing is safer than Windows if properly administrated. Performance? Well, it seems that in the Phoronix tests, Windows 7 clearly outperforms Linux (and Linux slightly outperforms BSD and MacOSX). Linus Torvalds himself has been quoted admitting that the Linux kernel is huge and bloated. Stability? They say Windows 7 and MacOSX are pretty stable.
Then, of course, there are philosophical/political reasons. In the past, illiterate used to be a person who could not read. Then, as our society became more technology-dependent, we had to define the concept of "functional illiteracy" to describe someone who can actually read but who lack the knowledge to understand certain notions which are considered essential in our society. It is obvious that the threshold for defining functional illiteracy is raising and raising every day. Nowadays, for instance, we have political debates on genetically-modified organisms, on biotechnology, on nanotechnology, on free-software, etc. Those guys who cannot understand the scientific and technological background of those issues I am afraid that have to be considered functionally illiterate to those respects. Now the question is, how can democracy (and therefore freedom) exist if people cannot understand our technological civilisation and make educated decisions in the most important issues? That is way for me freedom is the deepest implication of free software.
29 • @3 - What ever happened to... (by bwd on 2010-10-04 14:50:06 GMT from United States)
I wonder (as I'm sure others have) about the artifact DWW creates by choosing to only post official distro announcements. My favorite distro (Arch) is rolling release, so could feasibly never have to post another release announcement--as it never needs to release a 'new edition'. Alternatively, I suppose Arch could officially release a new edition whenever something is adapted from upstream; but of course no one does this, and it would be absurd.
As far as popularity contests matter (and they do when in need of development help), by not releasing new editions a distro can easily fall off the radar (even though it has a very active and engaged community). Further, new users who may love a rolling release distro may not catch wind of them, being eclipsed by the larger 6-month release cycled distros.
This is not a complaint, just something I considered when I saw the question about gentoo -- another rolling release distro.
30 • Ubuntu 10.04 Problem (by Sanjay on 2010-10-04 15:00:53 GMT from India)
Ubuntu 10.10 is going to releasing on 10th October, my problem is with Ubuntu 10.04 whenever I tired to install it on my friend PC it didnot boot I tried Ubuntu 32 bit, 64 bit, Linux Mint 64-32 bit all the distro run well on my machine his PC supports Mandriva,OpenSuse PCLinuxOS but not Ubuntu's any flavour.
My friend PC-
Intel core2due 2.93GHz
RAM 2GB DDr3 1333
500GB
inbuilt 256MB graphic memory
My PC
AMD Athlon 3000+ 2GHz
1GB RAM DDR1
80GB
inbuilt 64MB graphic memory
My E-mail id is Linux@sanjay4u.co.cc
My Website -http://www.cellguru.co.cc
I am waiting for your help
31 • RE: 29 (by ladislav on 2010-10-04 15:07:42 GMT from Taiwan)
Firstly, it's not DistroWatch that chooses to post only official distro announcements - it's the decision of the distro project. So don't blame the messenger. Distros can easily choose to make release announcements on their web sites, in which case they'd be right there on the front page of DistroWatch.
Secondly, it's interesting that even though Arch is a rolling-release distro and it doesn't make much front-page news, it has still managed to climb on the page hit list in the last couple of years. In fact, I don't think it has ever been as high as it is now. Debian is another project that rarely makes a release and rarely figures in front-page news, but it's still very high on the list (and in the mindset of users).
32 • still about freedom (by forlin on 2010-10-04 15:13:28 GMT from Portugal)
Most people who comment here agree that there are multiple advantages for using open source software instead of proprietary one, but we all also know that there are various reasons contributing for the Linux struggling to easily get a broader user base. This is in part because Linux simply doesn't have the marketing resources to help the citizens become aware of the advantages of that change. But even if it had, many people would find that after using proprietary staff along so many years, are now locked in in such a degree that making a change would imply an unaffordable financial loss. My sympathy to the FSF positions, are right about this point. If nobody, never, nowhere had tried to make people understand that the antagonist to the commercial lock-in is the free and open source software, how many of us would be here, week after week, talking to each other about something we learned to love because we understand how valuable and needed it is to the software progress at a limited cost, in the modern world?
33 • Thanks! (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 15:21:37 GMT from United States)
I have two companies to thank for opening my mind toward GNU/Linux. Apple- for overpricing their hardware to the point I refused to replace my old Performa with their gear. And Microsoft, for proving what a security nightmare clunker OS they can release again and again. It really made my choice simple. I should send them Christmas cards.
=)
34 • spreading GNU/Linux (by Mike on 2010-10-04 15:52:41 GMT from United States)
I spend a good part of my life fixing computers. I hear constantly, "My computer is so slow, I need to get a new one. Can you fix my computer?" etc. In the office there are some computers which we have no choice but to try to maintain using XP. This is due to the requirement to use a special vendor accounting software which is an Access database system. These computers drive me nuts! They require constant maintenance.
While I work at trying to keep XP machines serviceable, I let people know that I would never personally use such software on my own machine.
Then, when people's personal computers crash, I tell them more about the GNU/Linux option. Get them to lay out all of the computer activities which they engage in. Check the compatability of their hardware. Then be prepared to set up a system to their specifications. Don't expect them to figure out how to get their camera working in Skype, or any such hardware/software glitch which comes up. I have set up 15 computers of all types for various people and various situations. The key is always that you take it upon yourself to be the support guy for them. If you make the effort to ensure that the recipient is able to do all of his or her accustomed activity; then you have made an enthusiast of them. The speed and relative carefree operation of the system is apparent. When you add a few capabilities which they never had before, you get even more enthusiasm. For newcomers, I generally setup a Mint distro.
35 • Switching to Linux (by John Haskell on 2010-10-04 16:06:28 GMT from United States)
It's true that the casual users have no problems with Linux. However, I tried to switch a user and ran into some problems. They had a lot of devices to use with the computer and all had to be supported. I was not able to find a solution for all of these. A true desktop Linux must support the smartphones, GPS, iPod, cameras, and other devices out of the box.
For example it was very hard to find one program which stores a single music database and keeps sync with both the newest iPod and phones. Also a contact database replacement for Outlook. Another problem was providing GPS map updates to a navigator.
I just don't think it's possible for a modern person with gadgets.
36 • re 35 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 16:24:58 GMT from United States)
"A true desktop Linux must support the smartphones, GPS, iPod, cameras, and other devices out of the box."
Windows doesn't, neither does OSX.
Blackberry in Linux- check
Droid- of course
GPS- Workarounds, a shame Tom Tom doesn't lose their lunch for GPL violations, though.
iPod- Solved, but better not to support evil vendor lock-in.
cameras? seriously...
"Also a contact database replacement for Outlook."
A complete non-issue. In fact, many Windows users won't even use it.
"I just don't think it's possible for a modern person with gadgets."
Wow, glad I didn't read this when I picked up Linux. My horde of toys work just fine.
Just some more astroturfing.
37 • spreading GNU/Linux good will (by Chris on 2010-10-04 16:28:20 GMT from United States)
I have to agree with Mike and the other posters who use a similar approach. As a spreader of Linux good will and cheer, I find it important to get to know the person before I setup anything for them. People like to rely on the magic of "it just works". If I can provide that, they often like to try. Eye-candy is a bonus.
All that aside, most people view their PCs as appliances. Replace when broken is the sad standard among users. If you want to really sell them, tell them how it can help them first, then elaborate on everything else.
Just my $0.02
38 • Debian MultiMedia (by lefty.crupps on 2010-10-04 16:32:32 GMT from United States)
Thank you thank you thank you for using this week's DWW Donation for Debian MultiMedia (DMM) repo. This repo is beyond valuable for Debian desktop users who want additional capabilities that aren't (yet) available with FLOSS licenses.
39 • RE: 16 > SmartSuite... (by flon on 2010-10-04 16:32:42 GMT from Brazil)
in few words SmartSuite is too much better than MS Office. Something like compairing Firefox and all its history, the experience of being the first browser... with IE.
Lotus Simphony is only the small, simplest, less important part of Smart Suite = Word Pro (word processor, AIK the precursor of the tabs in text editors), Lotus 123 (Excel's "father", or grandfather), Approach (database), Freelance (presentations) and other tools. SmarSu were created for workgroups as its basic concept, then incorporating a lot of "futuristic" functions for the cooperative work. A really great suite, IBM let die after Lotus incorporation. Die... or only a long-long sleep, I hope.
40 • @ 26 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 16:45:13 GMT from United States)
"choose to be a slave"? Don't go overboard, I could through my windows boxes off the nearest bridge anytime I want to as long as I'm not caught for littering. I simply choose to dual boot with Linux instead, and am the slave of no computer no matter how overblown the rhetoric is one way of the other. It's really very simple to hit the off button or even pull the plug; however, if you are in North Korea or Iran your actual freedom is curtailed to a great extent. It is certainly true that MS & Apple try to eliminate the competition and keep anything else from gaining mindshare, but then again everyone in the developed world is constantly bombarded with advertising and product pushing of one kind or another. Most corporations want to control you into spending your money on their stuff, but they are far more subtle about it than anyone that would try to make you an actual slave and over-hyping the case against them only hurts yours. Present a workable alternative and let them choose, that's why its a free society, in part because your free to do what others may consider stupid or ignorant.
41 • Advocating Linux and free software (by samuel on 2010-10-04 17:38:45 GMT from Italy)
I think it's not necessary to advocate for linux. We should have just a small number enough to keep distros alive, enjoy living in our small world and leave the masses where they like to be.
42 • Advocating Linux (by Rick Maines on 2010-10-04 18:01:09 GMT from United States)
I plan on passing out Edubuntu 10.10 to the masses during Halloween. When a child comes to my door, I'll stick a burned copy into their bag, along with a healthy snack taped to the jewel case. I also will have a business card tape inside, explaining what it is, and who to contact for assistance.
43 • Linux Advocates and stuff.. (by davemc on 2010-10-04 18:12:57 GMT from United States)
An above poster asked about Windows 7 and how it compares to modern Distro's on first bootup. About all I can say for that is that it is very comparable. The first time I booted it up on a new machine I bought recently, it went out and downloaded all necessary drivers on its own without even asking me for permission to install it. When I later bought a fancy shmancy headset, it did the same thing, and the usb headset will not work in Linux. It does not even see it on lsusb output. So yea, Windows 7 is comparatively a pretty good OS, if not even better in some ways, but its the product of the evil one so there you have it.
Some say KDE4 ideas were copied by MS, but who's to say? The snap windows were there in Win7 long before they came into being in KDE4.4, so its a chicken vs. egg thing. I sure hope the snap windows weren't patented, or the KDE project just might end up in court real soon. Other things were obviously copied by MS from FOSS. It should be a symbiotic relationship between FOSS and proprietary, but greed and ignorance breed mistrust and so the pot of hate gets stirred by the foolish to fever pitch. As with everything, politics will always be there to subvert the truth.
44 • @40 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 18:15:32 GMT from France)
I used a metaphor and didn't actually mean that you are a slave for using proprietary software. Sorry if that was not clear. I was not talking specifically about linux either but about free software in general.
What I meant to say is that for the same software, at the same price, nobody in their right mind would take the proprietary license over the free one. I meant that free software is better for the user, no matter how you look at it. Therefore the freedom to choose between free and proprietary has no value. The free license is free and the proprietary one is not. Freedom is choosing the free license, it's not choosing between the two. I think it is important not to confuse free and proprietary, the two are different. Users can choose but it is better if they are informed that one way is free and the other is not. That is the point I wanted to make: Freedom has a value.
45 • re 36 (by John Haskell on 2010-10-04 18:54:21 GMT from United States)
This type of disagree regularly occurs. Gadgets will vary, so will people's skill at finding workarounds. If you know of a solution for these particular gadgets, please point them out instead.
GPS: HP iPaq rx5900 Travel Companion. Syncs contacts with Outlook via MS ActiveSync (very important, all their contacts are in it). Needs map updates for TomTom Navigator. Also syncing media and playlists.
5th generation Nano - this wasn't well supported, until now we have libimobiledevice (recent).
Note that I did have a usuability problem with the camera (and whatever comes with Ubuntu for pictures) - I put in a 4g SD card, and it wanted to download everything. Not only would this take a long time, but it filled up the home directory (yes I only had a few GB free, it was a dual boot). What application will just let me slideshow my card?
46 • Freedom? No please. (by samuel on 2010-10-04 18:54:22 GMT from Italy)
It's a very wrong assumption to think that all people need freedom. Give people freedom and they are unsure of what to do with it. They will soon look for a master to whom enslave themselves. If apple and microsoft decided to liberate their software, change licence and declare it free (like in freedom and in free beer) you would have worry and confusion engulfing the entire computing world. Computer users will soon start looking for someone else who can charge them for software.
47 • Regarding free software (by Dan on 2010-10-04 18:56:12 GMT from United States)
Is there a linux distribution that allows me to watch wmv or mpeg files or listen to mp3 files legally? Or play a DVD in my computer?
48 • Advocating Linux (by Claus Futtrup on 2010-10-04 19:14:01 GMT from Denmark)
... an interesting topic for discussion, to me at least. Jesse has some points. I think when a person is convinced to try Linux, the next step is to make a plan for the conversion. I wrote "Welcome Windows users" a while time ago ... people keep reading it, it has been reposted several places (like DesktopLinux) and translated into many languages, it has now had 67000 readers (last time I checked it was 65000). Check it out:
http://www.zenwalk.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16
Some people read it and decide not to take the jump while other people do. Most important is that the ones who do, make it!
/Claus
49 • Advocating Linux (by Saleem Khan on 2010-10-04 19:44:09 GMT from Pakistan)
@48 Just to mention here few of the articles I wrote few years back
http://raiden.net/articles/why_do_we_use_linux_as_home_users/
http://raiden.net/articles/desktop_linux_distributions_expectations_of_a_home_user/
http://raiden.net/articles/gnulinux_vs_windows_myths_and_realities/
http://raiden.net/articles/how_to_quit_windows_and_cope_with_windows_withdrawal_syndrome/
Many of many friends, colleagues and family members are using Linux now and they don`t want to look back, I don`t see any of them with any regrets, and lot of those who know I use some kind of "windows" called "Leenix" approach me and ask me to put it into their pcs too.
Regards,
50 • @36 in Response to 35 (by Tom Horn on 2010-10-04 20:10:16 GMT from United States)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
@35: "A true desktop Linux must support the smartphones, GPS, iPod, cameras, and other devices out of the box."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
@36: Windows doesn't, neither does OSX.
Blackberry in Linux- check
Droid- of course
GPS- Workarounds, a shame Tom Tom doesn't lose their lunch for GPL violations, though.
iPod- Solved, but better not to support evil vendor lock-in.
cameras? seriously...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
@35: "Also a contact database replacement for Outlook."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
@36: A complete non-issue. In fact, many Windows users won't even use it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
@35: "I just don't think it's possible for a modern person with gadgets."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
@36: Wow, glad I didn't read this when I picked up Linux. My horde of toys work just fine.
Just some more astroturfing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
X2.. I couldn't agree more.
51 • FOSS (by Woody Oaks on 2010-10-04 20:11:20 GMT from United States)
To explain the value of free and open source software it's best to cut out the warmth and fuzzyness: Any businessman who would conduct his operations and maintain his records in a secret code to which he has no access and over which he can exercise no control is just plain nuts. There exist today archived data which cannot be accessed because of Microsoft shenanigans; such cannot happen with OpenOffice data as the announcement of this LibreOffice fork demonstrates. Imagine the foolishness of purchasing a hardware system inside of a locked and sealed beige box which only an authorized "Microhard" representative could access, repair, or maintain. To be sure, most Unix applications are not free or open source, but thousands are, including Linux, which is the kernel of choice for most Unix systems worldwide. Free Unix software can perform many business operations and almost all of a home computer's functions. Microsoft-Windows runs arcade consoles; Unix runs computers.
52 • Trisquel and Flash (by Chris H on 2010-10-04 20:27:50 GMT from United States)
Trisquel's lack of support for full screen YouTube videos
was deal breaker for me. Not only does their Flash substitute
not play full screen YouTube videos, removing their
Flash substitute will take important system files with it.
Trisquel won't allow proprietary software to be installed.
On a more positive note, Debian easily accepts proprietary software.
Chris H
53 • With codecs (by Jesse on 2010-10-04 20:28:11 GMT from Canada)
@47:
Dan, there are a handful of Linux distros which will play the files you mentioned and DVDs out of the box. Off the top of my head I think Mandriva (One edition) and Mint do everything you want. And both are pretty novice-friendly. Trisquel played most of the files I threw at it, but I didn't test commercial DVDs.
54 • Trisquel, FSF, DMM (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 20:40:31 GMT from United States)
re:52
I'm a bit confused why Trisquel would base on Ubuntu instead of Debian in the first place. Wouldn't building from a Debian core be easier than stripping Ubuntu?
I assume removing Gnash wants to rip the Gnome metapackage down with it in Trisquel. Yet another reason not to use a metapackage in the first place. As for installing proprietary software, why would you go with an FSF solution if you were going to do that anyway?
On a side note, it's kind of odd to give DMM the donation when you're spotlighting an FSF-approved distro this week. Not that I disagree with the worthiness of the recipient. Kinda like taking beer to the AA meeting.
55 • Trisquel (by Tom on 2010-10-04 21:10:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
Wow!! I really like the look of this :) I have always avoided the FOSS-only distros because i want to be able to play movies and stuff. I do like the logo & that would tempt me to try it on the sparee partition. But Jesse makes it sound really viable so it has to be worth trying.
Whatever next? A truly open Solaris? OpenOffice secured against proprietary take-overs? BSD desktops within reach of non-geeks? Unix platforms to appear in DW listings?
I can't quite believe this isn't some alternate universive i somehow stumbled into. Great work from everyone involved
Many thanks and regards from
Tom :)
56 • @53 codecs (by Dan on 2010-10-04 22:53:32 GMT from United States)
I am aware of both distros. However, their codec support is illegal in the US. That's why I was wondering if any distro has actually gone the extra mile to make a legal version.
57 • FOSS (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2010-10-04 23:45:36 GMT from United States)
I agree with #13 in that showing it off is a good way to advocate Linux (or anything for that matter) is to use it in public.
On Ubuntu, I have the 10.10 RC of Kubuntu installed (upgraded from 10.04 vis Internet). So far, it is working beautifully. The only thing is, I don't have KPackageKit on it; Instead I have Muon for a PM. Muon looks and works very well.
58 • response to #30 (by Candide on 2010-10-04 23:53:43 GMT from Taiwan)
30 • Ubuntu 10.04 Problem (by Sanjay on 2010-10-04 15:00:53 GMT from India)
Ubuntu 10.10 is going to releasing on 10th October, my problem is with Ubuntu 10.04 whenever I tired to install it on my friend PC it didnot boot I tried Ubuntu 32 bit, 64 bit, Linux Mint 64-32 bit all the distro run well on my machine his PC supports Mandriva,OpenSuse PCLinuxOS but not Ubuntu's any flavour.
You can download and test Ubuntu 10.10-release_candidate right now:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickMeerkat/TechnicalOverview
If it fails to boot, see if Xubuntu, Lubuntu or Kubuntu works - maybe you've got a Gnome issue (can't imagine why though).
For installation on the hard disk, sometimes it works better to use the "alternate-install" or "server edition" of Ubuntu. If you use the server CD to install, log-in (text-mode only, of course) and then install a graphical desktop by typing:
sudo apt-get install ubuntu-desktop
or alternatively, one of these:
kubuntu-desktop - Kubuntu Plasma Desktop system
edubuntu-desktop - educational desktop for Ubuntu
edubuntu-desktop-kde - educational desktop for Kubuntu
xubuntu-desktop - Xubuntu desktop system
lubuntu-desktop - Lubuntu Desktop environment
Needless to say, don't use the 64-bit version unless you've got a 64-bit processor.
Hope that helps.
59 • RE 13 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-04 23:55:38 GMT from United States)
Like 57, I think showing it off is the way to go as well. The only time I fire up compiz is when I'm around people who haven't tried Linux. The eye-candy sucks them in every time. Then they start asking questions.
For real work, I live more spartan. awesome wm doesn't blow any (non-geek) minds, after all.
60 • Trisquel does support full screen youtube videos (by quidam on 2010-10-05 00:09:56 GMT from Spain)
@52, Gnash can show Youtube videos fullscreen, although it might require the browser to be restarted after the first attempt (weird gnash bug about cookies). And you can install this: http://trisquel.info/en/browser/addons/flashvideoreplacer
Also, how Debian accepting non-free software is a good thing?
@53, It is illegal to use free software to play CSS encrypted DVD's -in fact to gain access to any DRM "protected" media, even if you legally purchased it-. At least where the DMCA or the EUCD applies. As per the actual codecs -which are a completely different thing-, they might be covered or not by patents, but they are included with Trisquel anyway -as long as they are free software-.
@54, It is not about choosing the easiest task, but to provide a free alternative to the distro most people uses.
61 • Legal codecs (by Jesse on 2010-10-05 00:35:59 GMT from Canada)
Dan, if you are really concerned about legal codecs in the United States and want to make very sure you're within the law, try Ubuntu. I think they have a coded buddy app which allows you to purchase codecs after you install. Also keep in mind that depending on where you are it may be legal to use the software, just not distribute it, depending on which codec/software you're talking about.
62 • @ 60 Trisquel (by Anonymous on 2010-10-05 00:52:44 GMT from United States)
Thanks for taking the time to respond, Ruben. I'm not sure "most" use Ubuntu, although I'd agree most do begin there nowadays. As the Trisquel project founder, I am curious if there were any technical reasons you chose to go with an Ubuntu base versus using Debian. Debian is closer to free than Ubuntu will ever be, after all. Enabling 'main' only in your sources.list gives you a free system except for the kernel issue.
63 • Inspiration (by Verndog on 2010-10-05 01:46:59 GMT from United States)
Isn't MINIX where Linus Torvalds got his inspiration to create Linux?
64 • @44 Ridiculous (by sirkat77 on 2010-10-05 01:51:22 GMT from United States)
"Nobody in their right mind would pay for proprietary software is the equivalent was free." Oh, please. I bought and installed Win 7 Ultimate and I`m loving it. This is after playing with Linux distros for years. Everything works, no workarounds needed. I triple-boot it with openSUSE 11.3 EduLIFE and Peppermint Ice. Ice for when I`m in a hurry, openSUSE for mainly Amarok, plus all the funky education-oriented apps and Win 7 for real work and play. I`m so tired of this knee-jerk reaction by most Linux users when it comes to Windows. It`s not "either-or", "it`s the more the merrier". Please flame me now.
65 • @61 (by ANGRY_USER on 2010-10-05 01:58:43 GMT from United States)
Legal codecs in the US? I would not pay for them :( It does not make sense. I can download the codecs from mplayer's site and build it(mplayer) from source. Or I can get vlc and get all deps and build it too? I also have option to use rpmfusion if I run Fedora, or get Mint? OpenSuse? I can use whatever I want and who will enforce it anyway?
Will a cop come and arrest me because I want to view a DVD on my home machine/laptop? I thought that the US represented freedom, and I guess that I don't have it :( What is wrong with getting the codecs? I see I don't need to pay, in fact I don't pay even for windows. Like many folks in China, they don't pay for windows I want to be like them :)
What is wrong with me, if I dual/tripe boot Windows 7/BSD/Linux? Windows(Free Version TM),?
66 • mp3 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-05 03:34:39 GMT from United States)
Perhaps some future article can cover some finer points of using Linux multi-media and codecs legally.
Like what is and isn't legal and where on earth also.
A little searching and I found this:
http://mp3licensing.com/
But it still is unclear to me about mp3 decoding as a user.
Debian has mpg123 (app) and libmpg123 (library) in its' main repo (free).
The linked website's faq states that they do not license users.
So is using mpg123 for personal use legal or not?
I do know that it works well, and is available from just a plain Debian install.
Lame encoding however is only available from the Debian Multi Media repo.
The same faq also appears that un-licensed encoding isn't legal anywhere on earth, so it seems.
Is there a better place to look, like Groklaw?
67 • @63 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-05 04:34:29 GMT from United States)
Yeah...MINIX is the inspired the Linux Kernel in the same sense that Windows inspired me to switch to Linux...
68 • RE: 1-3-29 (by Landor on 2010-10-05 04:36:07 GMT from Canada)
Actually, Gentoo does create images, they just built a new image recently for x86 at the least. These are automated builds from my understanding and that's how they offer installation media instead of a LiveCD. I don't think since it's automated it would warrant advertisement as a new release. Though I guess they could fire something off as news letting users know there's up to date media to use.
I do believe that Arch has released an updated ISO from time to time to keep things fresh.
One thing you can say about distributions that are not in the limelight and pumping out ISOs is they have integrity. I personally find distributions that release every few months, or pump out 4 or 5+ variants every so often circumspect to say the least. Ladislav himself would have to agree that this is a good way for any distribution to pad their PHR here, and overall popularity in our community anywhere for that matter.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
69 • RE: 68 additional info (by Landor on 2010-10-05 04:48:43 GMT from Canada)
Just another point about Gentoo (and again, if I'm not mistaken), most people build Gentoo using a LiveCD from another distribution. I've been tinkering with it on my netbook and used my Fedora install to build it. There's really not a lot of reason for an ISO to be released. What's important is the stage3 tarball and the portage snapshot are up to date.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
70 • @64 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-05 05:47:22 GMT from France)
Let me try to put it more clearly.
First freedom is not about paying or not paying. Free software is not signing an EULA that is full of constraints for the user.
I was saying that not signing the EULA is freedom, signing it is not. Having the choice between signing and not signing has no value.
The context is that people care about that if they know what it is about. If they actually read the EULA, they know they are getting screwed. I meant that you have to let people know that their software has an EULA but free software does not. If they have to choose between 2 software, one free and one not free, the freeness might be an argument for free software.
I was replying to the people who said that people don't care about it and that they only care about technical merits.
I think it is wrong. technical merits do have a weigh, but being free is a plus. Being free is better than being proprietary, they can see that. They may still choose the proprietary solution because they are used to it or because it is better technically but it is a compromise. The free license is still better than the proprietary one so let them know that if they choose the proprietary solution, they have to accept an EULA that is a constraint for them.
It is NOT a "knee-jerk reaction", as you put it, it is just plain FACT. Free software is free, proprietary software is not free software. This is just a FACT. The two are not the same.
71 • free as in free beer (by Anonymous on 2010-10-05 07:24:59 GMT from France)
On side nite, I encourage every switcher to pay for their software. There is no such thing as a free lunch. It is their best interest to do so. If they can't afford it, even a symbolic donation of 1 euro sends a message to the author to continue the good work.
72 • Dan 47 & 56 (by Tom on 2010-10-05 07:28:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :)
I think there are some commercial distros that legally allow people to use those codecs in the USA. Look into distros such as RedHat, Xandros and such.
The USA is possibly the most awkward about individuals intellectual property rights and personal freedom but in most of the rest of the world we are fine.
Regards from
Tom :)
73 • Sabayon 5.4 (by Pera on 2010-10-05 07:39:18 GMT from Serbia)
Nothing new in Sabayon 5.4 exept a few applications and kernel updates.Only reason for very frequently releases I see in order to obtain more popularity,on Distrowatch etc.Very bad from them.
74 • Mandriva XFCE 2010 Spring is a big disappoinment (by Mandriva on 2010-10-05 09:30:22 GMT from India)
Mandriva XFCE is a lightweight distro but I don't think so because it failed to install in my PC that supports KDE 4.5, Windows 7 and Vista. then How can I say it as light weight.But it installed successfully on my friend PC who has high end Configuration. My PC's Specification: AMD Athlon 3000+ 2GHz 1GB DDR1 RAM 80 GB Hard disk 64 MB Graphic Memory 1024*768 Monitor Resolution My Friend PC's Specification: Intel core2duo 2.93GHz 2GB DDR3 500GB Hard disk 256 MB Graphic Memory 19" LG LCD What's New in Mandriva XFCE 2010 kernel 2.6.31.5 XFCE 4.6.1 glibc 2.10.1.....
Read more at
http://www.linux2u.co.cc/2010/10/mandriva-xfce-2010-spring-is-big.html
75 • LibreOffice (by anonymous on 2010-10-05 10:17:55 GMT from Australia)
Is it just me, or is "LibreOffice" relatively hard to pronounce?
76 • Gnome (by silent on 2010-10-05 10:23:48 GMT from France)
The release of Gnome 2.32 has not even been mentioned in this edition of DWW, although I admit there isn't much to talk about in terms of new features. But the new snapshot of Sabayon with Gnome Shell - as mentioned in the "Released Last Week" column - sounds interesting, I think they are the first of the Top 10 to use Gnome Shell by default.
77 • on other things equally important .... (by meanpt on 2010-10-05 10:49:03 GMT from Portugal)
It was nice seeing Galpon MiniMo added to Distrowatch. When we see people trying to base on Ubuntu to produce light and computer recycling distros, one can't avoid asking why to reinvent the wheel when MiniNo and others (namely Knoppix) are already in place. While not being the perfect distro (it still has flaws), it's one on the list to look at when old computers and low resources are at stake.
78 • LibreOffice (by mechanic on 2010-10-05 10:50:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
LibreOffice, that's some kind of French variant is it?
79 • Mandriva / Mageia (by Tom on 2010-10-05 11:03:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
@74 Distros do not only fail because of low specs. Usually low specs is not much of a problem for a linux system except in fairly extreme cases. Even then it is more likely that you would notice slow, unresponsive behaviour rather than a complete fail.
Your specs are reasonably high-end compared to most and Mandriva (or any other, even Ubuntu) 'should' work fine.
The problem is more likely to be some xorg problem with your graphics card or some other 'clash'. Usually this sort of thing can be easily fixed by someone that knows what they are doing, or researches it well enough. Personally i would simply try a different distro as a LiveCd and keep trying other ones until you find something that works. If you are determined to get Mandriva working then a kludgy cheat is to try copying the xorg.conf from a working install into your Mandriva. It doesn't always work and might break something in the Mandriva system you installed.
Ok, sio the graphics card looks reasonably high-end to me too but if it is Ati (like mine) then it might just need a different driver
Good luck and regards from Tom :)
80 • Minix (by Tom on 2010-10-05 11:13:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
"MINIX 3 is a new ...", from their website, but surely not? I thought Minix was an ancient old OS. Wikipedia says "MINIX (from "mini-Unix") was first released in 1987". Granted, that is newer than the last ice-age and very recent compared with the big bang.
81 • Ubuntu light??! (by Tom on 2010-10-05 11:19:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
@77 meanpt
I totally agree. Perhaps good for a machine just 2 years old and fairly cutting edge back then but definitely not the lightest! So many slackware distros and many others are very very much lighter. Doesn't Ubuntu aim to be about the heaviest distro (not counting boot times)?
82 • MINUX 3 (by Jesse on 2010-10-05 12:09:50 GMT from Canada)
@80
If you keep reading the description of MINIX 3, you will find that MINIX 3 is largely a rewrite (and in some ways) a redesign of the previous MINIX versions. By comparison MINIX 3 is a new operating system.
83 • @62 Tecnical reasons (by quidam on 2010-10-05 12:11:15 GMT from Spain)
In fact Trisquel started as as being Debian based, but since Ubuntu has predictable release times and much better live support we decided to change in 2008. It is of course a lot harder to clean due to Ubuntu's loose policies, but it pays the effort.
BTW, several reports show that about 50% of GNU/Linux users out there use Ubuntu, so having an almost-drop-in free alternative is important:
http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm
84 • Libreoffice... (by disi on 2010-10-05 12:15:44 GMT from Germany)
at the moment it is just a copy, but they plan to let the community decide where it should go and build features around it. This is the same as OpenSolaris is now more community driven as IllumOS.
There is an ebuild in the ryon overlay. In the Gentoo Bug report from 28/09/10 they state that Libreoffice [might|could] be only a temporary name and they hope that Oracle comes to it's sense and sponsors the name OpenOffice for the project?
So we might see OpenOffice again but with a new organisation behind it?
85 • Libreoffice link for bug and ebuild (by disi on 2010-10-05 12:18:41 GMT from Germany)
Bug Report: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=339057
RION Overlay: http://code.google.com/p/rion-overlay/source/browse/#hg/app-office/libreoffice-bin%3Fstate%3Dclosed
86 • @ 70 How is a EULA a restraint? (by sirkat77 on 2010-10-05 13:22:19 GMT from United States)
I`m honestly curious here. I sign it, I use the product. No one or nothing "constrains" me. It`s just a computer, folks. Not a religion. I didn`t buy my PC to join a movement, I bought it to work and play on. I understand the FOSS philosophy fine, but by the same token, it gives me the choice not to adhere to it strictly if I choose not to. Isn`t that what true freedom is all about? If FOSS tells me I can`t use this or that, isn`t that a constraint?
87 • GALPon MiniNo (by yournotme on 2010-10-05 13:43:19 GMT from Australia)
Downloaded GALPon MiniNo Distro very slow on my hardware! 2.6Ghz 1Gb of ram and errors everywhere during boot up. disappointed.
88 • @86 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-05 13:56:59 GMT from France)
Indeed it is not a religion. Nobody is trying to convert anybody here. I am just stating facts. You do not have to adhere to anything. When you use proprietary software, on the other hand, you have to sign the EULA which is a list of constraints on what you can do with your software and what you can't do. Each EULA has different constraints. You've got to read them to know what constraint they contain. For instance the EULA of Windows 7 has restrictions on the number of users for your system and the number of processors, and you can't connect more than 20 devices to it (no joke that is in the EULA) among other restrictions. You may not make a copy of your system. Your Windows 7 is also limited to one geographical region. You can not activate your system outside of that region.
I am NOT telling what you can do and what you can't do. I am just telling you the fact. Please open your mind and stop believingFOSS is restricting you. The entire point of FOSS is NOT restricting you. You are free to use whatever software you want. You just should know that proprietary software has restrictions and free software has not.
89 • mp3, EULA (by fernbap on 2010-10-05 13:58:25 GMT from Portugal)
I think there are some misconceptions about mp3 use. Mp3 is patented, but anyone can use it to play a mp3 file.
However, as to any patented software, you are not free to distribute it, and that consists of a copyright violation.
As to mp3, you can't encode mp3 files without paying a license for it, but there is nothing preventing you from listening to mp3 files.
The legal issue here is including mp3 codecs in a distribution that will be distributed for free under an open source license, and that is why distros based on the USA don't include it.
The main issue is from where the user gets the codecs, not its use being illegal. If that was so, the use of winamp or VLC would be illegal.
Regarding EULA, the main issue is that you aren't buying anything. By paying for windows, you are paying for an authorization to use it on your computer, and microsoft reserves the right to revoque your authorization any time, without any reason. You own nothing.
90 • EULA (by Tom on 2010-10-05 14:07:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
"End User License Agreement" is a contract which is supposedly legally binding. Advice given by the anyone in the FOSS community is just advice, take it or leave it, not a legal contract.
91 • userful (by Jairo Mayorga on 2010-10-05 14:42:26 GMT from Colombia)
Please look at www.userful.com
Thanks
92 • @ 88 and 89 (by sirkat77 on 2010-10-05 14:47:42 GMT from United States)
1. I`m the only user on my system. 2. It has three USB ports, I couldn`t connect twenty devices if I tried, (or cared to). 3. Once it`s activated I can take it anywhere in the world if I care to and use it. 4. Yes, I can make a copy, any competent user knows how. In fact, I`ve already cloned it just in case. Sorry, no restrictions. @89, I`m not too worried about Microsoft deactivating my copy, lol. It`s in my PC that I own, so yes, I own it.
93 • @92 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-05 15:06:53 GMT from France)
You should actually read the EULA in full. If you are sure no restriction applies to you then the software is fine for you. Think about all the consequences though. What if you loose the installation CD, what if you upgrade your PC, what if you buy another PC, what if you need to reinstall, what if you need support, and so on. Think about the future as well. When Microsoft stops supporting your software, are you ready to upgrade or switch? People who bought old versions of Microsoft Office may find that their documents are no longer readable. Try to think about all the consequences of the constraints you accept.
If the contract seems fine to you then free software has no advantage over what you already use. Free software is for people who do not want those constraints.
94 • re#92 (by hab on 2010-10-05 15:57:53 GMT from Canada)
If you percieve yourself and your system without restriction i'm down with that.
Everybody, after all, is entitled to their own delusion!
Wow what a concept, Win7 almost as free or freer than Linux, who'd ever a' thunk that!
cheers
95 • Re 94 (by sirkat77 on 2010-10-05 16:04:42 GMT from United States)
Nowhere did I say it was free, chief. Was it worth my money? I think so, that`s all that counts, isn`t it?
96 • Sirkat77 (by Tom on 2010-10-05 17:38:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
While you can technically do those things you are breaking the law by doing so. Whether there will be any consequences is a different issue. Most of us commit crimes possibly every day without consequences but could be punished for any one of them. Advertising in public forums that you continue to commit crimes may not be the smartest move but why should we care if you get caught or not?
97 • Re 96 (by sirkat77 on 2010-10-05 17:55:12 GMT from United States)
I never said that anyone should. I imagine Microsoft has better things to do, (and care about), than a Linux forum, lol.
98 • free vs. proprietary (by Josh on 2010-10-05 18:01:25 GMT from United States)
First, to people who think they own the copy of windows on their computer, "The SOFTWARE is protected by copyright and other intellectual property laws and treaties. Manufacturer, MS and its suppliers (including Microsoft Corporation) own the title, copyright, and other intellectual property rights in the SOFTWARE. The SOFTWARE is licensed, not sold." (Part 3, Windows XP EULA)
You are already restricted by windows once you agree, without even having used it. Basically, it says windows is theirs, not yours. You are just being "allowed" to use it. (most hated part of EULA to me)
Second, free software in my opinion is always a better option. Think of it this way, you buy a program core to build on it, or buy a complete program. If that program has bugs, you have no way to fix it. You must submit a bug report and hope that someone decides its important enough to fix. Even if you can't fix it, with open source bug tracking, at least you know something is getting done (sometimes). The process for proprietary software isn't always so transparent, and is sometimes not even important to the company.
Just my 2 cents. Cheers
99 • Licenses (by Jesse on 2010-10-05 18:29:28 GMT from Canada)
Something a few people here are over-looking is that end user license agreements aren't exclusive to proprietary software. There some some Linux distros which display EULAs during the install process.
For that matter, not all EULA are overly restrictive. Sure, some are and wildly so, but it's entirely possible to have an EULA which is as open ended as the BSD license.
People in the FOSS community tend to get bent out of shape when they hear the term EULA, but it's just a license. Much the same as the GPL or the Apache license in form, but not in content.
100 • Freedom and uhh.. (by davemc on 2010-10-05 18:31:34 GMT from United States)
#86 sirkat77 - You will never truly own any copy of Windows. By law and by EULA you only pay for the right to use it, but Microsoft owns it in full. Yes, they can revoke your license to use it at any time, for any reason, and without you even knowing about it until the code to lock your system down comes across the internet, as has happened before. EULA's have been tried and backed up by the court system (both American and International), so your not safe in a foreign country either. You have no freedom to use Windows in any way you choose either. Read the EULA and check your case law - International as well. The "freedom" you claim you have is an ignorant fallacy. An illusion, not based in fact or reality. A lie. Bury your head in the sand as you might, it will not make the law go away or change it to what you would like it to be.
Computing Freedom as defined by the FSF means you CAN use both your computer and the code that makes it run in any which way you see fit legally in reality and truth (no pretending necessary). You have the freedom to modify the source code of your programs in any way you like (such as fix bugs or make improvements) legally. It means we all truly own the code in the legal sense, no hiding in the sand and make believe required.
101 • @99 and 100 (by Josh on 2010-10-05 18:36:37 GMT from United States)
Well said both of you.
102 • Freedom quotes (by RollMeAway on 2010-10-05 19:25:14 GMT from United States)
Maybe these apply to software also:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the
ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.
-- Unknown.
103 • @66: MP3 (by cba on 2010-10-05 19:35:13 GMT from United States)
If you read this,
http://mp3licensing.com/help/index.html#5
"However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00."
it is quite obvious that MP3 decoding and encoding is both legal for "private users".
In most cases "creating a personal music library" means ripping your own audio cds and then encode the wav songs to mp3 via lame, so the personal and non-commercial use of lame should also be o.k. according to this website.
Therefore, the personal and non-commercial use of (lib)mpg123, libmad and so on as well as the personal use of the lame encoder should be legal worldwide, even in the USA and Japan.
104 • @87 • GALPon MiniNo (by meanpt on 2010-10-05 19:46:11 GMT from Portugal)
loaded on a virtual box virtual machine hosted by a windows XP running in a 1.4 Gh / 1 gb RAM i686/pentium M of the first generation Dell machine., with 400 MB of RAM allowed for the virtual machine. Runs fast and snappy, as fast and more snappier than Zenwalk XFCE or Openbox with the same resources - no errors reported though firefox had to be installed from the repositories
105 • Linux Advocacy (by aptgetalife on 2010-10-05 21:05:42 GMT from United States)
My approach to evangelizing Ubuntu is simple. The fact that I do not run Windows occasionally comes up in conversation. People are usually quite puzzled and ask if I have a Mac or something. I tell them I run Ubuntu, a free operating system which is both easier and more feature-rich than any version of Windows. I then inform them that if they are interested, they can test Ubuntu via a LiveCD without any changes to their computer. I have a few LiveCD's on hand as well as a URL to Ubuntu's site.
Several people have switched, some haven't. If someone chooses to continue using an expensive malware-box, sucks to be them, glad it's not me.
106 • Debian vs Ubuntu as a base for totally free distros (by Ralph on 2010-10-05 21:46:19 GMT from Canada)
@ 83,62 - FWIW the gNewSense distro (which is perhaps the first distro that comes to most people's minds when they hear "FSF-approved") is switching to Debian from Ubuntu LTS for its next major release. One of the reasons they gave for this was that Debian segregates its free from non-free software better than Ubuntu (so it must be easier to remove the non-free stuff). I'm not totally clear on what they mean by this, but I think there is some proprietary firmware and fonts that get included in Ubuntu's but not Debian's "Main" repo.
On a related note maybe somebody could explain the following. If you do a "free software only" install of Ubuntu (by pressing the F6 key at install time) you just have the "Main" and "Universe" repos installed. "Multiverse" and "Restricted" will be not be available. But under this Ubuntu "Free" you will have only some of the gstreamer plugins from the "bad" and "ugly" sets available because the plugins are split between Universe and Multiverse. But in Debian the entire set can be found in Main. However, *if* I remember correctly I had the entire set of gstreamer codecs available in the last version of gNewSense (based on Ubuntu Hardy). So what I surmise happened is that gNewSense people had to get some of the packages from Multiverse. But how could they do this if Multiverse packages are non-free? For that matter, why would these "extra" gstreamer packages also be in Debian Main if they are non-free?
107 • gui vs cli (by hab on 2010-10-05 22:01:50 GMT from Canada)
For all you gui and nothing but a gui guys and gals out there, here is a little cli propaganda piece to persuade you of the foolishness of a gui only position.
http://infoworld.com/d/networking/take-gui-and-shove-it-374?page=0,0
For myself i like the gui but i understand the value of the cli.
cheers
108 • @106 (by Fred Nelson on 2010-10-05 22:08:41 GMT from United States)
Because Multiverse is really a conflagration of two completely separate concepts. It has both software that is Free Software (by the FSF definition) but patent-encumbered in certain jurisdictions (e.g.: LAME), and software that really is non-Free, but redistributable otherwise (e.g.: Adobe's Flash Player). Thus gNewSense could put the Free (but patent-encumbered) software from Multiverse in the distro just fine and not go against its mission.
In Fedora terms, Multiverse has the contents of both the Free and Non-Free RPM Fusion repositories. That is why it is a problem from the point of view of somebody who cares about software freedom, but not about software patents.
109 • Donations (by Ed on 2010-10-05 22:29:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thank-you for your generous donation to a Debian project -- as a frequent user of Debian and a person who favour large projects upon which many distributions are based that contribute to upstream packages (such as Debian and Fedora), I assume donating to such projects to be especially beneficial to the Linux community as a whole.
110 • Fedora and others as free software (by Ralph on 2010-10-05 23:36:15 GMT from Canada)
@108 - so I wonder what the landscape looks like for someone who cares about *both* software freedom and software patents? I'm guessing that Fedora (and RedHat/CentOS/ScientificLinux) fit the bill (assuming one ignores the binary-blobs-in-the-kernel issue). But are there any other well-known distros that have this dual concern? Remember I am talking about the default install....
111 • Fedora preupgrade (by Landor on 2010-10-06 01:05:18 GMT from Canada)
I don't know if the fact that I was running Fedora 12 would make any difference but I went through preupgrade without any problems really (there was one I'll discuss in a minute) but the process took roughly two hours. It had downloaded and installed 1033 packages. I thought that once the download was done it would be fairly quick after that, it wasn't. After the first reboot it took a long time as well.
The problem I had was of my own doing. I generally create one swap and one swap only. Then I let every other install use it. I never looked at Fedora's fstab and didn't know they were using a uid instead of /dev/XXXX, which also meant that swap wasn't working after I had another install change the uid. Anyway, the upgrade process failed due to it and I changed it to /dev/XXXX and all was fine.
Unless I'm missing something here, I can't see the use of preupgrade as an advantage in any way. I would have to guess that downloading all those packages would be far more, or at the least equal to, an install image.Thus it wouldn't help any mirrors with bandwidth. Then there's the time a factor. With my connection, I could easily download and install Fedora in the area of 15-20 minutes maximum. No matter if someone's connection is slower than mine, the results would still be the same as they have to download a massive amount of packages then go through the install process. I could only see this of some benefit if the system was an extremely modified install prior to the upgrade, which mine wasn't.
I hope that helps someone and would like to know if anyone else had any similar or different results.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
112 • Re: Fedora preupgrade (by Fred Nelson on 2010-10-06 01:37:45 GMT from United States)
@111 - I agree. I find it much more convenient to just fresh-install and then copy any files I want from my old partition (which I don't delete right away) rather than upgrading from one version to the next, pre-upgrade or no.
Modern Linux installers really are a wonder, being so much more convenient than Windows (thanks to most software being in the repositories, whereas reinstalling Windows apps takes forever if you have any significant number of them), and much more considerate of other OS's that may be residing in the system.
113 • RE: 111 - 112 (by Landor on 2010-10-06 06:38:25 GMT from Canada)
I actually checked out updates and it was also a total of 114 updates, after updating/upgrading it..lol :) I didn't look at all of the dates but I know for sure there was one that had a September date.
Two installers I really enjoy are from Fedora and openSUSE, and both of them just keep getting better as well. Fedora might not be as friendly for adding other distributions and such though. But I don't mind adding them in. Keeps me in the game. :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
114 • Statistics (by forlin on 2010-10-06 09:53:51 GMT from Portugal)
As I like numbers and stats, I decided to have a look at the figures shown in the page linked at comment @83. First quick account, picking the Ubuntu figure (28507) and the total for Linux (73317), Ubuntu has 39 percent utilization. This percentage goes up to 45 if we exclude the Android figure, as it's not a pc o/s in its essence. Next step, I was curious about the percentages of the other Distros. In here, there was a problem: by summing each of the Linux OS's I got 47881 and not 73317 as shown in the first map. There is a third map with a breakdown per OS versions. This one shows 23916 under "Linux". Compared to the total of the sample, this number is too high to be taken per si, without a breakdown by versions. The consequence is that the percentages for the next most used distros, after Ubuntu, cannot be realistic (p.e Suse, at the top, is only 4 percent). Of course, all figures here are relative to the way how the sample was taken, with an unknown error margin, as is the case about any and all attempts to find real Linux Distros's utilization figures, due to the fact that the copies are freely distributed and obtained from very diversified sources.
115 • still on the lightness side .. (by meanpt on 2010-10-06 09:58:35 GMT from Portugal)
Salix developers managed to bring their beta 5 of an installable KDE 4.4.3 that works, meaning really working and moving without struggling, within mere 450 MB of RAM. .I always assumed this would be some kind of an impossible mission but go figure, presumptions are not laws in the Linux world. On the Ubuntu side, the Peppermint people managed to produce a new release of their Ice respin that stands out as a really light and maybe the lightest Ubuntu on Earth. Right, no more presumptions on what Linux can achieve.
116 • Running Trisquel right now... and WTF?!?!? (by uz64 on 2010-10-07 05:58:19 GMT from United States)
I decided to try a few recent Linux distros, and one of them is Trisquel 4.0.1--which I am typing this post from right now. I am outright shocked by two things so far:
1. When accessing an MP3 file... it actually played. I thought for sure I would have to use a different distro or fall back to Windows to get an MP3 to play... after all, Ubuntu makes this difficult, yet Trisquel is not just "free," it's FSF-approved, meaning they not only don't provide any non-free software, they provide absolutely no help whatsoever in getting it to run.
2. My wireless card is detected automatically, and I can see my connection. I'm using a wired connection right now so I didn't double check by attempting to log in, but I think it's safe to say that if it sees my network, then there's probably no problem. IIRC, I connected in the past with a previous version of Trisquel, with no problems. By comparison, the last several versions (I believe up to the latest if I'm not mistaken) of Ubuntu do not come with Wi-Fi ability upon install, but allow installing such "non-free software" with a little program. Hell, there are only three or four distros that recognized the wireless card automatically--the other couple I remember off the top of my head are Pardus and possibly Parsix (I could be wrong on that last one).
Update: Without going through a bunch of retyping, I'll just add here that it does connect.
I don't understand it; how can a FSF-backed distro have things that "just work" that most other distros omit due to their non-free nature? Do patents (MP3...) not matter as much to the FSF as much as they claim they do? How can trisquel add wireless drivers by default, yet virtually no one else does? The only thing I was nearly 100% sure would not work is my nVidia card, and it didn't. Stellarium runs in Trisquel at a snail's pace, but I bet it would run great if I used the onboard graphics adapter.
117 • @116 libmad can decode mp3 (by disi on 2010-10-07 07:15:55 GMT from Germany)
there is libmad, which is able to decode mp3. It's GPL-2 and the "default" (if there is such a thing) in Gentoo. Just add "mad" to your USE Flags and every application that could be capeable of playing mp3 can do it.
http://www.underbit.com/products/mad/
The alternative and probably used by many distros is the USE Flag:
win32codecs
where Gentoo downloads and installs the binary codecs from the mplayer website.
For your wireless card, it really depends on your kernel config and what driver you use. In case of Atheros chips you could also use the madwifi driver, but the kernel driver got really improved and work for me out of the box as well.
As a wireless client I usually use wireless-tools, wpa_supplicant and wicd to connect (not a fan of networkmanager).
118 • Re. 117 (by uz64 on 2010-10-07 09:59:57 GMT from United States)
I realize that there are open source decoders for MP3, as well as the awesome LAME encoder, but the MP3 format is protected by patents. Many other distros, ones that certainly don't care as much about sticking to pure free software, even make things most people would expect to come standard with any OS such as MP3 handling difficult.
The FSF is traditionally the strictest group of open source advocates around, endorsing only a small number of small distributions (and many of them they do support are either a joke IMO and/or specifically targeted at people from other countries and for highly specific needs, but that's beside the point...). Hell, Debian and Fedora tend to be some of the more unforgiving ones that stick to their idea of "freedom", not allowing such stuff at all--yet the FSF doesn't support them because they tell the users how to get the good stuff (and in the case of Debian, the kernel does apparently contain binary-only code). The FSF completely despises patented stuff, and always recommends using "free" alternatives (like Vorbis) instead. Yet they support this? Something just doesn't add up.
BTW, according to lspci, my wireless card is the following:
01:09.0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4318 [AirForce One 54g] 802.11g Wireless LAN Controller (rev 02)
...and trust me, this damn thing doesn't want to work on hardly any distro. Either at all, or not by default without first downloading the "non-free" firmware. And I've tried dozens of distros on it. I haven't had to use it since I just use the ethernet port, but as pissed off as I got with the various other WiFi cards (even in Windows, where they randomly stop working requiring a reinstall of the drivers) I never had any intention of wasting time trying very hard to get them to work until the free/supported drivers are released.
119 • How do you advocate Linux (by Dopher on 2010-10-07 11:43:03 GMT from Belgium)
Jesse wrote in his article: "The important thing to remember is that most people aren't going to switch their applications or operating system out of ideology." I also would ad to that that most people don't care about privacy anymore.
Now these are actually 2 of the main reasons why i run linux. The others are, the almost unlimited tasks you can perform quicker with bash and cli apps (instead of using a gui), That I know what processes are running and why, and that I have full control over my computer. And that my computer works for me, and not the other way around.
I've experienced that the above reasons are just not enough for most people to switch to linux as their main system. People nowadays don't mind that they are being tracked by phone-home applications and that they are being controlled. And that most "free" applications, produced by companies, are actually being paid with privacy. Those apps are all pulling, taking, searching wanting the users data.
And to be honest, i don't see any other reasons why one would switch. Windows has applications, games etc. And working pretty well. Most people just want to point and click, and don't wanna read documentation to learn something.
Therefore i never bring up the subject anymore. People who are interested will find it, because they are taking the effort (just like the effort that is needed to learn linux) to find it.
120 • re: 64 sirkat the window user (by Dopher on 2010-10-07 11:54:14 GMT from Belgium)
sirkat,
I fully agree with you. You prefer windows, and therefore using it. But it's useless to post something like that on a website about linux distro's. Windows is simply no linux distro. It's better to find a windows 7 forum, to talk about your experiences with the system.
In my opinion you are one of the majority of users i was talking about in my post : 119. And that's fine.
I also boot up windows to start the games i like most. You see, not all linux users are allergic to windows.
121 • On mp3 decoding (by Jesse on 2010-10-07 12:09:39 GMT from Canada)
For people who are curious about the FSF's stance regarding mp3 decoders and about Trisquel including mp3/video players, please see this page:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis/FSF
There you can find out RMS's position on mp3 players, firmware in the kernel and other interesting tid-bits.
122 • scanning and processing on linux (by Dopher on 2010-10-07 12:15:25 GMT from Belgium)
Jesse also mentioned:" I got one person interested in Linux in a way which surprised me. The fellow scanned a lot of documents for his job and, when I demonstrated Linux for him, we found his scanner worked about five times faster using the Linux software."
My experience is exactly the same. I had to scan some documents, and they had to be mailed in pdf format. I took out my 9 year old dustcollecting flatbed scanner, and it scanned the whole document very fast.
And thanks to the makers of the imagemagick tools, the only command i had to do was : "convert *.jpg document.pdf" And within seconds all 35 pages where orderly converted to 1 pdf file.
(this is the simple version, there are lots more options possible, you could also use postscript tools with it )
123 • @118 and broadcom :) (by disi on 2010-10-07 12:18:12 GMT from Germany)
You will be happy to hear, that broadcom started releasing their drivers as open source...
http://linuxwireless.org/en/users/Drivers/brcm80211
Hopefully they make it quickly into the next kernel releases.
It is planned to build them into the 2.6.37 dev tree... release every 3 months or so, that then hmm beginning next year?
124 • @118: MP3 (by cba on 2010-10-07 12:22:39 GMT from Czech Republic)
"I realize that there are open source decoders for MP3, as well as the awesome LAME encoder, but the MP3 format is protected by patents."
This is true, of course.
But when the owner of the MP3 patents (in this case Fraunhofer/Thomson; the corresponding website is www.mp3licensing.com; see posting 103) allows you to use MP3 decoders and encoders in a personal/private and non-commercial way, then this kind of use is legal.
A lot of "big" Linux distros which are sponsored by big companies would have big problems at court to be considered as non-commercial entities. So they publish their Linux distros without MP3 decoding and encoding capabilities.
In my opinion the reason behind this
http://mp3licensing.com/help/index.html#5
"However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00."
is the German Patent Law which allows the violation of patents for personal and non-commercial use explicitly (§11, Nr.1 PatG).
Moreover, Fraunhofer is a German research institute which gets it is money from the German tax payers. So also in this regard it would be ridiculous to sue them for using an MP3 technology which could only be invented by means of their payments, provided it would be allowed by law to do so.
125 • mp3 (by disi on 2010-10-07 12:45:06 GMT from Germany)
One could take care, that the mp3 player or phone plays ogg vorbis...
@121 thanks for the link
I read the answer of Richard Stallman, without those guys the world could be a bad place for people :/
On the other hand, that a software is not free, because it implies ideas that are patened, is a little "stiff". I mean, what about reverse engineering?
What about the WIPO Copyright and Performances and Phonograms Treaties Implementation Act, that we can do whatever we can to play the damn movie on the DVD (anti-circumvention provisions)?
This might change soon anyway with ACTA, therefore it is forbidden to develope or distribute software to... see below
6. In order to provide such adequate legal protection and effective legal remedies, each Party shall provide protection at least against:
(a) to the extent provided by its law:
(i) the unauthorized circumvention of an effective technological
measure carried out knowingly or with reasonable grounds to
know; and...
126 • Re:120 I`m an OS user, not just Windows. (by sirkat77 on 2010-10-07 18:01:10 GMT from United States)
I love openSUSE 11.3 Edu L-I-F-E, it`s my go-to distro. I merely pointed out that it doesn`t have to be either-or, does it? Btw, the title of this forum is Distrowatch, not Linuxwatch. Correct? Is not Windows a distro?
127 • re#126 (by hab on 2010-10-07 18:13:24 GMT from Canada)
No it is not!
In the same sense as Solaris, Mac OS X, AI/X and HP/UX and are not distros either.
Distrowatch is about, primarily, Linux distributions, at least that is what it has seemed like to me since day one!
I think you might be be a smidge confused.
cheers
128 • @126 a distro? (by RollMeAway on 2010-10-07 18:54:27 GMT from United States)
Please read Distrowatch Faq page, particularly the sixth question:
http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=faq
129 • @126: topic (by Jesse on 2010-10-07 19:02:04 GMT from Canada)
>> "Btw, the title of this forum is Distrowatch, not Linuxwatch. Correct? Is not Windows a distro?"
Not in the context of this website it isn't. In case you failed to see the large banner at the top of the page, it reads that distroWatch is...
"about the current happenings in the world of Linux distributions and other free operating systems."
130 • either/or (by Anonymous on 2010-10-07 20:10:18 GMT from United States)
For me it absolutely is either/or. I'm not going to be a party to supporting an evil corporation (or those that partner with them). I don't really care what you do.
131 • RE: 121 (by Landor on 2010-10-08 00:27:57 GMT from Canada)
That was an excellent link to post. There's also other links if someone would go back to the page linked at the top with articles regarding it all even further.
I personally like this article that was one of the links, a lot: http://lwn.net/Articles/209175/ Corbet gets it right in my opinion.
I've tried to avoid discussing this week's article (and question/answer section) and for the better of the comments section, I probably still will. I'm sure my response could be taken as an attack in some form. But, (there's always a but) I'd like to point out that almost every time I see people discussing the FSF they start discussing Richard Stallman in a personal manner, or they start discussing how the FSF "makes them do this", or "makes them feel this way", absurd. As your link pointed out, Richard Stallman and Brett Smith both answered the questions kindly without enforcing their views on anyone, and even Richard Stallman made a similar point to that in fact, (if you paid close attention to the part of the discussion of GNU/Linux naming). I think that within our community we should try to avoid personal attacks that have no basis in regard to the topic at hand, or personal feelings in regard to the differences of opinion(s) that nobody imposes on them other than the feelings they themselves imposed.
I'm not saying that this is what happened this week at all, either in the discussion, or the articles. Just pointing out something that I regularly see when it comes to this topic, and something I feel that we can do without.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
132 • RE: 117 - 123 (by Landor on 2010-10-08 00:34:05 GMT from Canada)
I noticed that the Atheros driver now in the kernel actually became extremely stable during the 2.6.32 series of the kernel. At least that was the case for my wireless G based Atheros card. I've also seen great performance and continual improvement with the driver for the wireless N based Atheros chip in my ASUS 1005HA.
I don't know if this is completely correct, I didn't read your link either. But, I did read previously that Broadcom's older drivers wouldn't be included. I don't know how accurate that is, or that it will always be that way as well.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
133 • Linux, 3D Cube, Wobbly Windows, etc... (by Jack Edelson on 2010-10-08 01:53:00 GMT from United States)
Your web page has basically put my company on the map. Our company believes heavily in opensource but tends to offer choice in our computer development options. We usually provide Windows 7, but also throw in a distro like ULTIMATE, or MINT or ZORIN OS, etc. Most of the questions we tend to get are:
Why haven't I gotten a virus in my boot sector?
Wow, you mean I don't need a virus scanner?
Ever since you put that grub menu on there my Windows 7 OS seems like its safer isn't it????
Thank you DISTROWATCH!!!!!!! I have tested over a hundred alpha, beta, rc and final releases and it always seems to amaze me how many improvements there have been over the years.
I would never tell someone to take Windows 7 off their system, but it's truly unbelievable when a client's system gets crippled by a worm virus and I can tell them to slect a different operating system until I get there in the morning!
My customers tell me it PRINTS, SCANS, PLAYS MOVIES, PLAYS AUDIO, DOWNLOADS AND INSTALLS AT THE SAME TIME, UPDATES AND UPGRADES FREE, etc etc etc
I wonder if Microsoft and Apple are just about ready to make all of their products open-source too........just to improve their operating system that is!
Jack Edelson, CEO
Smartbyte Systems, Inc.
www.getsmartbyte.com
134 • @133 same experience between Windows and Linux (by disi on 2010-10-08 08:46:06 GMT from Germany)
I have the same experience on my desktop with dual boot. On my quadcore there is a hell of a lot difference between Windows 7 and a Linux kernel.
On Linux, if I run something it starts and runs immediately until it's finished. It doesn't matter how much stuff is open and I have a more applications open at a time, because of 4 desktops. My complete /tmp folder runs in tmpfs (12GB RAM).
Windows 7 sometimes seems to think about what to do next. Try to create a tmpfs drive (hell, you cannot install any not signed drivers in Windows anymore, this was only enabled during beta -.-) no chance.
I can't mesure it, but stuff like opening the startmenu, run apps, switch between apps etc. OK, Windows only runs the proprietary driver of ATI and not the radeon one, which might be a lot faster on the desktop.
As soon as wine likes the radeon driver and I can play Eve on Linux again, I might wipe the Windows installation and put it into a VM for MS Office 2010.
135 • A few replies... (by uz64 on 2010-10-08 10:35:59 GMT from United States)
#121: Wow, thanks for the link. That's one hell of an informative read. Explains pretty much everything I was asking, as well as a few other things I've been wondering for years...
#123: Yeah, I heard about Broadcom releasing their drivers. I agree that it's great news and it's something I've been hoping for, but it'll be a while before distros begin using the supported kernel. The worst part is, Debian Squeeze already went into feature freeze, so there's no chance of getting official Broadcom wireless support in Debian for at least a couple years. :(
#124: Some good points you bring up. Makes sense. I can't wait for the MP3 patents to expire because, to be honest, the situation of MP3 in Linux is often a major PITA.
136 • Official Cds (by Tom on 2010-10-08 15:11:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :)
Ladies seem to be treating me like some sort of rock-god since i started handing out and briefly explaining LiveCds to people at work and college. One stunningly pretty & very high-powered, intelligent lady smiled at me a few weeks ago, another giggled at some stupid 'joke' and another 2 talked to me for more than a couple of minutes even after i had blushed and said some stupid things!! I checked the mirror but i haven't had 1 eyebrow shaved off or anything.
So, if you are married i recommend taking care and avoiding this but if you are single then it might be worth buying a small stack of official Cds if you can get a good deal. I got quite a few for $10. Then carefully choose stunning model type people and geeks as there seems to be a bit of gravity before settling for 'normal' people you find attractive. If it worked for me i am fairly sure it could work for anyone but it might just be something in the water supply here.
Good luck and regards from Tom :)
PS 2 people have now installed linux on their computers so it was good for that too.
137 • re#123 Broadcom FOSS support (by hab on 2010-10-08 15:19:53 GMT from Canada)
Broadcom's sense of altruism is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it's more about $$$ than anything else. Broadcom's market share has tanked in the last three months or so, much of the market turning to Intel and Atheros wireless because they have FOSS support for their chipsets. Something that is apparently being demanded by companies like IBM, Dell and HP.
If i understand correctly older Broadcom chipsets will not be included because they have settings/values (now hard coded in firmware) that could be manipulated from software taking the card out of regulatory compliance.
But overall it is a (stumbling) step forward i guess.
cheers
138 • Foss support for profit (by Tom on 2010-10-08 16:42:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
If this really has started happening & Broadcom have found a good financial reason for giving Foss support then we might have nearly reached critical-mass at last. Get ready with the break-pedal and fasten your seat-belts. Now we definitely need distros that are not noob-friendly but able to go and push into other areas.
Hold onto your hats folks!!
Regards from Tom :)
139 • Support is comming around (by RollMeAway on 2010-10-08 18:11:45 GMT from United States)
Measurement Computing is a vendor for data acquisition hardware.
Data acquisition hardware has always been ms ONLY.
Great to see some vendors now supporting LINUX as well.
"Platform-compatible with Windows® 32/64, Windows CE, Linux®, and Mac®"
http://www.mccdaq.com/solutions/DAQFlex-Solutions.aspx?MC=DF0910
If you use such products, support the companies that support linux.
140 • @Foss support for profit (by Tom (by meanpt on 2010-10-08 18:40:25 GMT from Portugal)
Tom, about this:
"Now we definitely need distros that are not noob-friendly but able to go and push into other areas."
... I can't see the relationship with the broadcom news. Could you explore it a litle bit further?
141 • Re: 139 ... Data acquisition misconceptions. (by jake on 2010-10-08 19:45:28 GMT from United States)
I've been using data acquisition hardware since before Microsoft existed. I have never used any data acquisition product that required anything out of Redmond. In point of fact, most of the systems I work on run on bare hardware, with nothing that most folks reading this would perceive as an OS.
142 • windows vs. linux (by Josh on 2010-10-08 20:15:17 GMT from United States)
@133: I've had similar experience with linux being the faster.
Case in point, one time my linux partition happened to become 100% full due to virtual box making a giant log file when one of the vm's had trouble shutting down. Linux didn't seem to slow down at all. I was able to open applications and everything like nothing was wrong. I had that happen with windows a few years ago and it slowed to a crawl.
143 • ignorants @ distrowatch (by MarkTwain on 2010-10-08 22:23:20 GMT from Czech Republic)
"The important thing to remember is that most people aren't going to switch their applications or operating system out of ideology. "
you friggin kidding right??? it is the only thing that matters.
144 • Free To Choose (by Bilbo Baggins on 2010-10-08 23:20:28 GMT from United States)
Its the ONLY thing that matters to Mark and his Twain. The rest of us use what works, free , proprietary, or otherwise, regardless of ideology.
145 • re#142 linux faster than windoze (by hab on 2010-10-09 02:34:00 GMT from Canada)
This became clear to me years ago when dual booting multiple linux/win machines. Linux invariably seemed, at least to me, to be a tic or two faster than a comparable native win app.
The kicker for me was when i ran a win app with wine on linux. Noticeably faster than win native. Sweet.
Now mind you this is all subjective because i never put a stop watch to it. Just couldn't be bothered. I knew there was a snowball's chance in hell that i would be chucking linux and taking up windows. I gave up on toys (well most of 'em anyway!) years ago.
cheers
146 • RE: 144 - 145 (by Landor on 2010-10-09 03:15:04 GMT from Canada)
#144
There's an old belief, that if there's one, there's more. I stand as an example of that belief. I use Linux, use it exclusively, and I don't follow the dictum of "just works". I believe that if you truly want something then you'll take whatever steps necessary to make it a reality, regardless of inconvenience. Just to make it clear, I only use FOSS operating systems exclusively, and have since pretty well immediately after my return to Linux about 4 or 5 years ago.
#145
I'd agree completely about everything being faster if it wasn't for one small issue, Firefox. It's a lot slower in Linux than it was when I used it in Windows years ago. Well, that I remember anyway. :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
147 • Apps in Windows vs Linux (by Barnabyh on 2010-10-09 09:32:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
Having had the opportunity to use the latest and greatest Windows Home Premium on this new machine I have to say that it seems a lot slower than any of the Linux installations on it. Even Kubuntu appears snappy and loads in less than half the time.
I never used XP at home, only when forced at work. This latest offering is actually not so bad, apart from some interface issues where even Wordpad got the stupid ribbon look. Still, it's very noticeably slower both to load and in operation, although I've already removed most of the crapware. OEM version of McAfee constantly running probably doesn't help, and there sems to be no way to disable or pause it, short of an uninstall. They probly don't want to normal users to be able to do that. This in itself makes every browser crawl, and immediately reminds you are using Windows, so always keep your protection on.
A triple core with 4GB ram shouldn't be that slow. I'm gonna keep it around for gaming as I have no other Win machine any more, but for everything else it will be Linux. Archbang came out of suspend within not even a second it seems, and in general is as fast and good looking as you could only wish. So far, with a bit of fiddling with the wireless, everything works as far as I can tell. Kubuntu even has their proprietary driver installer that made it almost too easy.
There's really no reason to use Windows except for (Windows only) gaming. For everything else you're probably worse off. Back to the update-reboot cycle.
148 • 140 meanpt re: tactics (by Tom on 2010-10-09 11:36:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi :)
It is complicated and not obvious what the link is between noob-friendly distros having exponentially greater up-take while distros challenging other frontiers only increase in up-take linearly (in comparison).
I am sure i am not the only one to see it because i got the point from DW, Stallman and i think Lander too. At least we have FSF pushing for greater Openness and less willing to compromise to noobs. We kinda need both angles, the noob-friendly's and the ones that don't care about that because they are too busy doing more exciting stuff.
Regards from
Tom :)
149 • Windows vs Choices (by Tom on 2010-10-09 11:41:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
People who only know Windows think that only 1 product can exist and that product must do everything. They cannot understand that "One man's meat is another man's gristle". I think we all want fast systems that are streamlined and do everything we need. We have different needs so the Windows approach is to throw out the idea of being streamlined and just make everything really heavy and excessive. Windows users don't understand that there are different approaches.
150 • re: tactics (by Tom (by meanpt on 2010-10-09 13:55:11 GMT from Portugal)
Tom,
while distros challenging other frontiers only increase in up-take linearly (in comparison).
Well, imagine you-re installing a distro who first asks you what partition you want to mount the swap in, and you give him a swap formated partition, and then the distro installer goes on asking you if you want to mount a file system on that swap partion ... there you go, a challenging frontier question ... what answer would fit here?
151 • On Advocating Linux and free software (by Annoyamouse (UK) on 2010-10-09 15:52:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
FOSS advocacy and the free verses non-free software dilemma made me think of the divide between the public and private sectors. Health care (in the UK at least) & education, etc is considered to be of such fundamental importance to society that it isn't left to the self-interest of corporations.
Within IT the Web is a prime example. Although generally we pay money to an ISP to access the internet, the internet as a whole is not owned by a company and the technologies & standards (HTML, CSS, Apache, etc) that under-pin the web are free and open. Maybe some day connection to the internet will be paid for via tax too with governments acting as ISPs.
Most people can see there are things of such fundamental importance to a society (and indeed its economy) that they can not be left to corporations. Software & the Web are of such importance to the future of education in particular and humanity in general that they should be thought of in the same light. I believe, when compared to education & health care, avocation of FOSS seems logical to most people.
Gaining public support for FOSS is not just important for the future of FOSS but for society and humanity in general. Any policy makers serious about their country's economic future should be putting FOSS & free internet access at the heart of government policy - they simply can't afford not to.
We need to convince the general public and governments that IT is simply too important to a modern nation's competitiveness and global development not to be made freely available to all.
152 • re#151 (by hab on 2010-10-09 16:45:13 GMT from Canada)
Would that it were so!
I personally believe that computers should be as open as Science and Engineering.
Can you imagine the sh*t hole we would be in if the engineering community worked to the same rules as the computer community!
cheers
153 • Re: 151 &152 (by jake on 2010-10-10 04:17:20 GMT from United States)
151: I disagree. The current iteration of what we now call "TheInternet[tm][1]" is based on TCP/IP, a store & forward, non-mission-critical, best-effort-only protocol. It isn't a network that I would trust my life (or business plan!) to, not by any stretch of the imagination. It is nothing more than a network built to study networking ... and then turned into the toy that it is today, a plaything for the masses, as network research moves on.
152: Engineering is open? News to me ... Last time I checked, most engineering firms have their own proprietary methodology for damn near everything ... That's why I have to sign NDAs every time I get a consulting contract. Don't believe me? Try to get permission to photograph & publish the details of Intel's newest Fab ... or Ford's next automotive drivetrain (or satellite, for that matter).
As for "science" being open ... Try to get advance details of the PhD candidate of your choice's dissertation/thesis, before the official presentation. When you are done with that, kindly post the details of a major drug company's current internal research, followed by details of the next US "super plane". Good luck in your quest! I'll be here when you get back :-)
[1] Whatever that is ...
154 • Re 153 (by Anonymous on 2010-10-10 16:44:05 GMT from Switzerland)
TCP/IP is store-and-forward? We can learn wonderful things on DWW.
It seems amazing that people are surprised at the diversity of Linux distros and that they have different licencing and engineering tradeoffs. Apparently this is conditioning from having one supplier dominating nearly the entire market.
The operating system business is bizarre compared to the rest of the commercial world. I have a choice of dozens of types of toothpaste at my supermarket, cars from over a hundred makers in all shapes and sizes. I can buy clothes for winter, summer, bright, dark, cotton or artificial fibres.
Linux has hundreds of variations. That's normal in the world we live in.
155 • re#152 @jake (by hab on 2010-10-11 00:33:12 GMT from Canada)
In the relatively narrow sense that you talk about i can understand your view but Science and by extension, Engineering, is actually a process of theorize. falsify,
theory stands or fails based on falsification result. Completely open, the only to entry barrier being ones own abilities and to a lesser degree credentials.
I still stand by my original statement.
The very openness of GNU/Linux is what originally drew me in. That and a passing resemblance to Unix. This keeps me here until they pry the keyboard from my cold dead hands!
cheers
156 • Re: 154 & 155 (by jake on 2010-10-11 03:34:17 GMT from United States)
154: Do you know how the IP portion of TCP/IP works? Trust me, it's store & forward. Eyeball the output of 'traceroute distrowatch.com` and explain what it means. For extra credit, ask yourself what the TTL field is for ...
155: You seem to be confusing "Science as a discipline" and "Scientific Knowledge", which are completely different concepts. Engineering is a whole 'nuther kettle of cats, trying to sweep worms back under the stable door before competitors can go fishing.
Agree with both of you on multiple/many Linux variations being a good thing ... even though I've only actually used (as opposed to tested) Slackware, which has done everything I need an OS to do on the desktop for about 16 years now.
157 • re#154 @jake (by hab on 2010-10-11 04:16:45 GMT from Canada)
OK. So we'll agree to disagree. I do understand your stance on engineering, having worked in a related mechanical environment for a good chunk of my life. With much contact with engineers and their particular brand of (proprietary?) insanity!
Your comment about slackware brings up good memories for me having been the first distro that i got working from my Walnut Creek cds. I ran slackware for the first couple of years and learned a sh*tload. For the determined beginner, i couldn't think of a better tool(s)!
cheers
158 • LibreOffice (by Pumpino on 2010-10-11 05:09:49 GMT from Australia)
Ladislav, given that the major distros (Fedora and Ubuntu to name two) have confirmed they're switching from OpenOffice to LibreOffice as of next year, I wonder if DW should ditch monitoring Oo releases and commence monitoring LibreOffice. ;)
Number of Comments: 158
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