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1 • MInt Debian review (by meanpt on 2010-09-20 07:57:31 GMT from Portugal)
Nice one Jesse. You just confirmed my testing findings on a VBox, but with 450 MB thrown into RAM. Everything you pointed are a matter for thought by the developers. With the quirks still around, I found easier and faster to install Debian Gnome than Mint.
2 • LMDE Software Manager (by dragonmouth on 2010-09-20 10:07:11 GMT from United States)
@Jesse:
The Mint Software Manager DOES NOT work without problems. It has been made so newbie-friendly that any bothersome and confusing dependency notifications have been removed so as not confound the user when they pop up.. Software Manager will happily uninstall the requested program/package, along with any dependencies, even if those dependencies are system files, never notifying the user of what it is doing. The user discovers on re-boot that the system is no longer usable.
Mint Software Manager is a booby trap waiting for the unsuspecting victim to stumble over the tripwire.
3 • Linux Mint Debian Edition (by koroshiya.itchy on 2010-09-20 10:37:49 GMT from Belgium)
It is true that the transition from Testing to Unstable can be a tricky one (I mean the moment when Testing becomes Stable and Unstable becomes Testing). Apart from that particular moment, Debian Testing is rock-solid. On my own experience, Debian is much more stable and reliable than Ubuntu. Also, performance is better.
Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) introduces an easy way of installing Debian and having most things working out of the box, which means great news for many users.
The solution to the first (and only) problem I mentioned is changing the repositories in the apt sources from Testing to the actual codename of the Testing version (currently Squeeze) before the transition is made and stay like that for a few months until wild Sid (now Testing) had been tamed to a reasonable extent. Then, one could eventually stick to Stable or, if required, go back to Testing and keep rolling till the next transition (which most likely will not happen in years).
4 • Newbie-friendly rolling distro? (by DG on 2010-09-20 12:05:04 GMT from Netherlands)
I work with a rolling distro, Lunar Linux, which is definitely not aimed at newbies, and
while keeping up-to-date is usually a piece of cake, sometimes it can take time and
effort for even experienced users to recover from an incompatible package update.
I can't see the benefits of a rolling release to a newbie-friendly distro like Mint.
New users want something stable to learn on, not something that works today but
might not tomorrow.
5 • Ubuntu replaced (by eric on 2010-09-20 12:58:01 GMT from United States)
LMDE has more or less filled Ubuntu's niche. I can only wonder how long Ubuntu can stay at the top considering this new "competitor" and Canonical's uncertain future.
6 • MInt Debian review (by seacat on 2010-09-20 13:00:29 GMT from Argentina)
On an old machine, Mint LMDE is faster than regular Mint edition; difference is notorious.
7 • RE: 2 -- Software Manager (by Jesse on 2010-09-20 13:01:05 GMT from Canada)
>> "The Mint Software Manager DOES NOT work without problems. It has been made so newbie-friendly that any bothersome and confusing dependency notifications have been removed so as not confound the user when they pop up.. Software Manager will happily uninstall the requested program/package, along with any dependencies, even if those dependencies are system files, never notifying the user of what it is doing."
I had read that on a forum post too and so the first thing I did after installing LMDE was try to uninstall some of the packages people said had given them problems. Using the Software Manager I removed such gems as cowsays and some Mint tools, a library or two and the GIMP. Then rebooted. Nothing on my system broke. Nothing was uninstalled that shouldn't be. I'm not sure why I had no problems where other people say their systems were broken, but the fact remains that I encountered no problems using the Software Manager when removing packages. Even when going out of my way to duplicate the problems others ran into.
8 • I might have missed this... (by Joe on 2010-09-20 13:13:43 GMT from Canada)
How do you pronounce Mageia, anyway? Soft "g"?
9 • New kid in town. (by Arty on 2010-09-20 13:43:58 GMT from United States)
LMDE is (so far) an OK disto that may mature into a very usable system however the real measure of success will occur once the luster has worn off the new project and we see how many folks make it their everyday OS. Right now the honeymoon is on but lets see how the marriage actually goes.
10 • @ 8 pronounciation (by arno on 2010-09-20 13:54:01 GMT from Germany)
the g like in italian spaghetti, the eia like hey and gaya.
Thats how I learned it, but its more important to write it correctly ;-)
11 • Re: 3 - Debian Testing (by Eric Chapman on 2010-09-20 13:59:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
"(I mean the moment when Testing becomes Stable and Unstable becomes Testing)"
That isn't what happens. When Testing becomes Stable, the normal process of advancing packages from Unstable to Testing recommences after the freeze. Packages are advanced when they meet the necessary requirements. So there's likely to be a bit of a burst of updates at this time, but it's not a case of the entire Unstable repo being moved to Testing at once.
I've been using Testing for a few years now, including the period when Lenny became Stable, and there was no difficulty at all with the changeover period.
12 • @8 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 14:00:28 GMT from Slovakia)
If you still didn't get it - it's from the word "mage" with suffix "ia". Bit awkward but ok.
13 • Mint dl links gone ? (by Zu on 2010-09-20 14:05:43 GMT from Poland)
How could one get any Mint edition if there are no links for download provided on their site (at least where they used to be)?
14 • @8 pronounciation (by skip on 2010-09-20 14:07:56 GMT from Germany)
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3095
15 • DebMint... Great Idea.... but... (by rec9140 on 2010-09-20 14:13:48 GMT from United States)
DebMint is a GREAT idea... but...
1) Call me when you step away from the gnomeade!
KDE is where you should be focusing your normal desktop, and LXDE, Flux, XFCE etc.. for lightweight versions... NO to the gnomeade!
2) DebMint needs to put its effort into taking up where the Debian software "roadblocks" aka DFSG ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines ) will annoy users especially the crowd that Mint targets... issues with codecs etc... and the issues that some programs in the Debian repos are compiled without support for certain formats because of this... So long as Mint devs are packing in the codecs and recompiling the software to include MP3 support.. then your fine......
Again, DebMint is a GREAT IDEA, and I would like to see it flourish.. but it needs to complete #1 before it can go much beyond... nice, cute, to replacing desktop installs... I don't do w or gnome, period.
16 • Debian Testing is NOT "rolling release"! (by snp on 2010-09-20 14:16:21 GMT from United States)
There is a big difference between "rolling release" and "testing"!
"Rolling release" implies that it is a RELEASE that end users are supposed to use. Arch for example exists only as a rolling release, which is the final product, not the "testing" ground for "Arch Stable".
Debian Testing on the other hand is more along the lines of Fedora Rawhide or Mandriva Cooker: a permanent development zone for working the bugs out of "future-stable." It is the last of the Debian branches to receive bug fixes and security patches, and the most likely to be broken for an extended period, if such breakage furthers the goal of producing the best possible Stable release. By definition Debian Testing can never be stable, because as soon as it does reach zero-bug-stability, it becomes Debian Stable. Furthermore, it does not "roll" in the sense that users get a steady stream of new packages as they become available; rather, it has a roughly two-year cycle of rapid change slowing to a trickle. You end up with a system that varies quite a bit in stability and "freshness" over time, from fairly stable and well-tested one year to new and buggy the next year, which is the opposite of what most people are looking for in a "rolling release."
Mint should have based their Debian "spin" on Squeeze (not Testing) so it smoothly transitions to Debian Stable. They are doing their users a big disservice in my opinion by promising a smooth rolling release; perhaps the claim is merely naive instead of deceptive? It is a shame, too, since my test drive of LMDE shows a lot of promise.
17 • or Sid (by snp on 2010-09-20 14:26:49 GMT from United States)
just to finish my thought, or Sid (Unstable) which is closer to the "rolling release" ideal (though still not ideal; still using 2.6.32 kernel for example!)
Testing has a distinct cycle and agenda that may be irrelevant to users who never intend to use Debian Stable. Why get stuck in "feature freeze" if you want rolling, not stable?
Sid is more like "the latest stuff" without agenda. Sidux/Aptosid has demonstrated the viability of Sid as a basis for rolling release.
18 • Grub2 (by Sly on 2010-09-20 14:50:31 GMT from United States)
I fiddled Grub2 this past weekend and I really didn't see how it's an improvement over regular Grub. For the older machine with a bios limitations, Grub2 can be a big pain in the rear, especially if you are dual booting. Grub did not have that problem. Also Grub was a heck of a lot simpler, easier to edit, and it worked just fine. Would some with more insight into Grub2 comment on why Grub2 is so much better....please.
Great Mint Debian write-up Jessie....Keep up the good work!!
19 • Re: #16 (by Rick on 2010-09-20 14:50:32 GMT from United States)
Although I can't speak for Clem, I believe he means it as a "rolling release" in the sense that you install once, and don't re-install every 6 months as is the current norm with Ubuntu and subsequently Mint. I understand a lot of things in the Linux world gets caught up in semantics (free cost vs. free use stands out), but there's no reason to lambaste LMDE for not complying with what you personally feel a "rolling distro" should be. Not to mention, there is a whole other branch of Debian upstream of Testing that is less stable and later to get patches, they even go so far as to call it the UNSTABLE branch...
I would guess (again, I'm not part of the dev team and can't speak for them) that LMDE is a stepping stone to Mint becoming a full-fledged distro with a Debian Testing base, so they would be parallel to Ubuntu as opposed to a downstream "respin" of Ubuntu as it stands currently.
20 • Yes I posted that before you posted your own follow-up... (by Rick on 2010-09-20 14:57:47 GMT from United States)
So now I sound like a bit of an arse. Oh well, at least I have the cloak of internet anonymity to hide behind.
just glad I didn't try to call you out as an Arch troll or something (or worse, a Debian troll!)...
21 • Rolling releases (by David Smith on 2010-09-20 14:58:33 GMT from Canada)
'Rolling releases' which inject updates to the kernel and userland components on an almost daily basis can be highly problematic from the end-user perspective, and only those who want (and are prepared) to learn some pretty hairy under the hood stuff should approach such distros.
Unfortunately this isn't always made clear by those who seek to pump up the numbers, popularity (and perhaps, in some cases -- notoriety) of their release.
In my view, Arch is the only one that gets this right, but only because it does not attempt to make the initial installation ridiculously easy, and then leaves the uninitiated user with a system that effectively can't be updated or enhanced with new applications the user might desire.
As we have seen with the demise of sidux (reborn as aptosid, with apparently few lessons learned) this leads directly to tensions between developers, who only want to develop, and users, who only want to use the release as they would any other, off-the-shelf (but non-rolling) distro, installing apps and multimedia codecs willy-nilly, and finding half the stuff is unsupported, and deeply resented for even asking about it.
Making a rolling release appear more accessible and use-friendly seems like a good idea.
It manifestly isn't.
22 • Distro LMDE (by Codin on 2010-09-20 15:24:14 GMT from Romania)
To the baby LMDE I say like ancient latins: VIVAT, CRESCAT, FLOREAT ! (may it LIVE, GROW, FLOURISH !)
23 • Unauthenticated Packages in LMDE? (by Dave on 2010-09-20 15:30:05 GMT from Canada)
Jesse -
I think I'm in your proposed target demographic for mint... I currently use Mandriva as a "just works" distro, and Debian testing for a stock/up-to-date playground/learning-lab.
I was excited by LMDE, and quickly installed it, hoping I could live in a Debian Testing world with low-maintennance multi-media and hardware support.
But I quickly came across an issue that concerns me, though I'm not sure it's a deal breaker. You didn't mention it in your review, nor did any of the comments so far this week.
LMDE uses some repositories which aren't signed, and the package manager is set to accept unauthenticated packages by default. As I understand it, that's a security risk I don't want to sweep under the covers, and I think it will break the "mint experience" to undo it. I haven't found (last I looked) any meaningful address of this issue at the Mint Forums.
Thoughts?
24 • Unauthenticated Packages in LMDE? (by fernbap on 2010-09-20 15:38:23 GMT from Portugal)
From the Mint blog:
"It is the same for all Mint systems indeed. It’s a feature though and it’s even a condition for our ISOs to pass the QA tests. Both the main Mint repositories and LMDE are signed and secure. The warning you see is because we set APT to allow unauthenticated repositories. This follows our philosophy that if you told your system to do something, it should listen to you and do it promptly. If for any reason you decided to add an unsigned repository, then Mint should accept it and do as it’s told. You already have a warning, if you don’t like it, use sign repositories, if you do already, remove the setting from /etc/apt/apt.conf."
25 • Thanks for the Speedy Feedback!!! (by Dave on 2010-09-20 15:40:55 GMT from Canada)
Looks like it won't break anything to change the apt config setting! Guess I didn't dig in the right places to find the answer...
Thanks!
26 • Linux Mint Debian (by Sammy on 2010-09-20 16:21:24 GMT from United States)
I love that Mint is making a rolling release. However, since it does not support restricted wifi drivers it is not good for my notebook. I have found Ubuntu 10.04 LTS to do everything I want and love the new look and feel. Since, Ubuntu 10.04 is LTS I will just stick with that for a while.
27 • Good Luck Mageia Devs (by kilgoretrout on 2010-09-20 16:27:57 GMT from United States)
Best of luck to the Mageia devs. Sounds like they will make the distro that Mandriva always should have been - a non-profit, community based distro of high technical excellence.
28 • LMDE (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 16:30:24 GMT from United States)
I plan on dual booting it with regular Debian but like others I'm debating if I should change the Repo to Squeeze. Has anyone tried? I would be more comfortable with that especially when it is immediately going to put in 280+ updates from unstable. I would also rather use XFCE or Fluxbox with Gnome going to version 3. It could get ugly.
29 • Trisquel release (by mjjzf on 2010-09-20 16:38:45 GMT from United States)
Congratulations to the Trisquel team on putting out a new release; particularly the Trisquel Mini version seems promising - a nice, lightweight FaiF distribution.
30 • @ 21 • Rolling releases (by Osoloco on 2010-09-20 16:48:24 GMT from Ecuador)
PCLinuxOS is another rolling release distro that does a fine job! It manages to combine cuting-edge aplications with stability. I've been working with PClinixOS for several months and no problems so far after each actualization...
31 • rolling debate (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 17:06:04 GMT from United States)
Again the debate continues from last week. How well do/can rolling distros test their packages before sending them off. I was knocked last week for not acting as though my PC were a server that should only be updated when x amount of layers of people claimed things were stable and released packages into a long term support distro. Can't packages be tested to some extent or another before they are rolled out? Isn't there a difference in stability between Sid and testing? Don't users deserve a choice? Can't developers shoot for the goal of a fairly stable rolling distro and try to iron out the kinks as they go along? Last time I said don't knock it if you haven't tried it, but it might be better to say please refrain from claiming something is fundamentally flawed because it isn't how you do it. Or maybe it would be better to say that you shouldn't claim that something, like say a stable rolling, can't ever be done. Many such claims have proven false over the years, how many k of Ram did Bill Gates Claim you'd never need more than? If it's not in your comfort zone then by all means use something else, and feel free to ask questions over how stable something is, but please don't say it can never be done.
I don't claim to be a particularly sophisticated Linux user, be it seems to me there are already plenty of crash reporting programs out there. One could envision using such things along with detected hardware specs to anonymously report back of the stability of various things on less stable branches of a rolling distro to slowly roll packages into a stable rolling distro. Perhaps those willing to brave the testing rapids would also be will to let their programs give an "alive and running x hours w/o a crash" signal to gauge stability. More stable branches could simply use aggregate data on crash reports vs number of uses over time to estimate package stability and move things towards an official stable branch. Maybe my thoughts on a stable rolling model are flawed; however, please don't contend that there is no way to make it work at all and act like those who are trying to give uses a choice are doing them a disservice. Users should be given information and choices so they can decide it something is for them, I think to do otherwise would go against all these FOSS philosophies I've been hearing about as long as I've been tinkering with Linux.
32 • #18 Grub 2 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 17:16:08 GMT from Canada)
There seem to be some who love it and some who find it confusing.
There are available some separate boot loaders.(Multiboot?)
Would it be possible to have these reviewed; and compared to Grub. Keeping in mind that we (the confused) need hand holding.
Thanks
33 • Rolling releases (by Yawn on 2010-09-20 17:20:27 GMT from United States)
< I think that horse is dead already... >
---------------------------------------
^__^
(oo)____
(__) )/
||----w /
|| ||
34 • Rolling (by Jesse on 2010-09-20 17:34:50 GMT from Canada)
@31
Part of the problem people run into when talking about rolling releases is that they confuse stable (functionality) with stable (static). A rolling release is never static. With proper testing and very careful repository administration it can be functional, but never static.
Hobbyists are generally okay with that as it gives them a steady stream of new packages to play with. People who need a predictable environment (at work or home) will generally want a distro with both characteristics.
I don't know why you're asking if users deserve a choice between static-with-updates and rolling releases. There are plenty of options and you get to pick whichever one you want. No one is forcing you to choose their release model.
35 • @ 34 (by #31 on 2010-09-20 17:47:54 GMT from United States)
I'm just commenting on the general sense of negativity I seem to be getting since LMDE released from people who don't seem to think rolling releases should ever be tried by the general public. Most of my questions were really of a rhetorical nature at comments like #21s.
36 • I have no problem with "rolling release"... (by snp on 2010-09-20 17:52:45 GMT from United States)
... but Debian Testing is not "rolling release." Sid/Unstable is the "rolling" branch of the Debian project (and a fine choice for the enthusiast or hobbyist who understands what they're getting).
37 • Mint Debian review (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 18:04:48 GMT from Canada)
OSNews shows some comments about Canonical's lack of collaboration; which may be a strong reason for supporting Mint's Debian move:
http://www.osnews.com/comments/23809
case we have the Canonical fork and then the rest of the community. The rest doesn't have any benefit from what Canonical does, because to get benefit from what Canonical does, the rest would basically have to become Ubuntu remixes. There is no communication, discussion and collaboration over the features Canonical is coding. Just dumping them as is, does not constitute a meaningful contribution. The best code originates from cross polination of ideas between diverse groups dependent on a project.
Why do we want to give Canonical a free pass for this behavior, while Novell was blasted for the way they developed XGL and Apple was bashed over the Webkit code dumps?
RE[3]: You obviously don't get open source
by r_a_trip on Wed 15th Sep 2010 08:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: You obviously don't get open source"
v
38 • Grub2 (@18) (by Gnobuddy on 2010-09-20 18:07:55 GMT from United States)
Grub2 - classic example of fixing what wasn't broken, for 99.9% of users at any rate.
I recently installed a KDE version of Lucid 10.04. After a few updates I've had about six kernel updates. Each time, grub2 auto-updates - and the boot menu gets ever longer, filled with useless obsolete kernel choices.
Grub2 also found my other drive with OSX Snow Leopard on it, and helpfully put still more entries into the boot menu. They don't work, of course, because grub2 has no idea that Chameleon and other boot loader tricks have to be invoked to boot OSX on my (non Apple) motherboard.
Annoying as heck, and thanks to the ridiculously over-complicated grub2 config process, it's not easy for me to get rid of the slew of garbage Grub2 boot menu options.
One of these days I'll figure out how to purge Grub2 and install Grub in its place; and then how to keep Grub from being wiped out at the next Kubuntu software update.
-Gnobuddy
39 • Mageia (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 18:14:27 GMT from Italy)
It might be the only way to let Mandriva survive, even if with a different name, thus it is very welcome.
Nice name, BTW, much better than Mandriva.
40 • @38: Reverting to Grub Legacy (by cba on 2010-09-20 18:42:58 GMT from Germany)
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2#Reverting to GRUB Legacy
41 • Mandriva sold to Russian firm NGI (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-20 18:49:06 GMT from United States)
It appears both Mandriva (the company and the distro) as well as Mageia will move forward. Here is my article for O'Reilly Media: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/09/controlling-interest-in-mandri.html
42 • @ 18 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 18:56:07 GMT from United States)
Grub2 is portable to non-x86 architectures. Grub-legacy used a hodge-podge of non-portable code to work its magic.
Grub2, of course, uses a hodge-podge of obtuse code to work its "magic" and its configuration is actually worse than lilo ever was. Granted, I am obviously trolling because I've dared to point this out and am posting anonymously, but hey...
43 • Mageia (by kilgoretrout on 2010-09-20 19:10:57 GMT from United States)
Excellent article Caitlyn. DesktopLinux also is running a large article on the Mageia fork of Mandriva:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3165663211.html
44 • #43, Mageia, Mandriva sale (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-20 19:14:42 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the kind words. I actually found the sale of Mandriva at least as interesting as the fork. With millions of euros invested and a new ownership, management and developers based in Russia I think we can be pretty sure that Mandriva's latest round of financial troubles are over. Instead of worrying about whether one good distro will survive we instead get two distros initially developed from the same code base.
Interesting times for sure.
45 • Rolling Releases (by zbreaker on 2010-09-20 19:16:49 GMT from United States)
I've never had a problem with and much prefer the rolling model of distro. Been using Slackware -current and aptosid (ex-sidux) for quite a while now. One just has to do a little homework before blindly allowing updates.
46 • BSD + Gnome (by Nick on 2010-09-20 19:18:13 GMT from United States)
I've never been able to get Gnome to work on top of BSD. Does anyone know a BSD distro that works with Gnome out of the box?
47 • Gnome BSD (by Jesse on 2010-09-20 19:23:51 GMT from Canada)
You can try GhostBSD, which comes with Gnome. I think the next version of PC-BSD (version 9) will come with Gnome as an option.
48 • RE #46: BSD + Gnome (by Django on 2010-09-20 19:28:13 GMT from Netherlands)
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/x11-wm.html
FreeBSD rules:-)
49 • RE:37 A Little One Sided Aren't We? (by Eddie on 2010-09-20 19:32:31 GMT from United States)
So you've come up with the warped ideal that in order to contribute anything to the open source community you have to give away a bunch of code. You sound like one of those crazy's who think that a Linux distro should stay within the very small circle of hobbyist where it always has been. That is the only reason I can think of for someone to make such an illogical statement. Whether people like it or not, and most distrowatch readers don't, Ubuntu has brought Linux to the general public the way nothing has done before. It really amazes me that people who claim to love open source software and Linux wants someone like Mark Shuttleworth and Canonical to fail. Well there's several others that would like to see that also, and they don't love open source. I don't believe it's the Debian team, it's not the LinuxMint team, hell I don't even think its the PCLinuxOS team. Why? Because if Ubuntu was to fail the general public would never take Linux seriously again. IT pros would but not the general public. And I don't think that anybody could prove otherwise. So you see, there is more to contribute than a load of code. THINK about it.
50 • LMDE (by Anon on 2010-09-20 19:48:39 GMT from United States)
"Users who are familiar enough with Debian to know they want to run Debian's Testing branch are probably comfortable installing plain Debian. People who use a rolling release because they want to constantly stay on the leading edge aren't going to find that in Debian Testing. My conclusion thus far is LMDE is for people who specifically want to run Debian Testing, but want to have everything pre-installed and configured for them."
This is exactly right.
51 • Re. #40 & #42. Grub2 Boot Issue (by Sly on 2010-09-20 19:51:37 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the info. The 'out of disk' error had me baffled for while. I figured out last night that I had a bios limitation problem, and have been looking for a solution short of buying a new computer. When I'm successful at applying a work-around I will post it.
52 • Mint 9 Fluxbox Edition (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 19:57:17 GMT from United States)
I was greatly disappointed when Mint developers chose to replace the Fluxbox taskbar with Tint2 panel.
Why bother?
Sure, it was decided by community vote and majority rule.... but where's the common sense?
They might as well become an Openbox distro instead of Fluxbox.
53 • Grub (by GWbridge on 2010-09-20 20:03:32 GMT from United States)
I'll second all the criticisms of Grub2. In fact, when I installed an additional hard drive and LMDE, Grub2 got half of everything wrong and would not update correctly. I finally made a small partition and installed Mint 7 on it simply to manage booting up. Old Grub works fine and is simple to configure and modify. Whenever Windows or some other operating system messes up the MBR, my copy of Super Grub Disk sorts it all out in a minute or two. Grub2 was a solution to a problem that didn't exist and is a classic violation of the K.I.S.S. principle.
54 • RE: #49 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 20:47:23 GMT from Italy)
"Whether people like it or not, and most distrowatch readers don't, Ubuntu has brought Linux to the general public the way nothing has done before"
Oh really?
And thanks to that:
1)An awful lot of people now believe that Linux is buggy crap, and they have either gone back to Windows (most) or moved to OS X.
2)Every IT forum is now flooded with arrogant n00bs who believe that, because they have tried Ubuntu, they are now high rank geeks and can do everything they like.
55 • Forking hell (by Rob on 2010-09-20 20:52:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
Mageia? Aptosid? Are all the decent names already taken?
56 • KISS Grub2 (by John Wayne on 2010-09-20 21:12:32 GMT from United States)
I made my Grub2 very simple. First off, I disregarded the "DONT EDIT THIS FILE" nonsense.
Then I copied my grub.cfg to "/boot/grub/" folder. If/when any UUID's change I simply edit my grub.cfg copy and then sen it back to "/boot/grub/".
Also I use symbolic links, for Ubuntu anyway, and any new kernels that come along get picked up automatically . My editable grub.cfg looks like so:
==================
default=0
gfxmode=640x480
insmod gfxterm
insmod vbe
timeout=11
menu_color_normal=white/blue
menu_color_highlight=light-cyan/cyan
menuentry "Windows 7" {
insmod ntfs
set root='(hd0,1)'
search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set d8c0ef8fc0ef7264
chainloader +1
}
menuentry 'Kubuntu' --class ubuntu --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os {
insmod ext2
set root='(hd0,7)'
search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set cc7db4b9-b039-4d6b-aa77-6d59cce1e317
linux /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.32-24-generic root=UUID=cc7db4b9-b039-4d6b-aa77-6d59cce1e317 ro quiet splash
initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.32-24-generic
}
menuentry "Lucid" {
insmod ext2
set root='(hd0,8)'
search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set 03568d9f-8220-4f89-b1d2-4930cb038fd1
linux /vmlinuz root=UUID=03568d9f-8220-4f89-b1d2-4930cb038fd1 ro quiet splash
initrd /initrd.img
}
57 • RE: #55 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 21:14:35 GMT from Italy)
Mageia is a nice Greek words which means "white magic", while Mandriva is a horribly sounding word meaning nothing.
58 • Rolling Releases (by Bruce Fowler on 2010-09-20 21:50:49 GMT from United States)
So if I install LMDE, I get ~230 updates out of the box. If I waited a couple of months, it stands to reason I would get many more hundreds.
At some point the LMDE developers must have to post a new version of their .iso, incorporating the changes to date, or new installations would be nearly impossible.
How, exactly, will that differ from a "Release?"
59 • 57 • RE: #55 Mageia = Magic (by Salaam Alikum on 2010-09-20 22:08:27 GMT from United States)
Magic is the use of certain devices or tactics or material to affect people’s minds so as to see what is unreal and believe it to be reality. Some people resort to it in order to have influence on others and make them do their bidding. Magic is emphatically forbidden. To learn it is forbidden, and to practice it is considered similar to disbelief in Allah. I cannot use Mageia.
60 • cavallino rampante's NuTyX (by forlin on 2010-09-20 22:52:46 GMT from Portugal)
What a great wall paper in the NuTyX Attapu!!!
The logo in the center, resembles some of the Ferrari's logo ones.
Lets wish a "cavallino rampante" style take off, to this NuTyX's distro release.
61 • 49 • RE:37 A Little One Sided Aren't We? (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 23:12:07 GMT from United States)
Actually poster#37's link had the exact opposite affect on me.
I read Mark Shuttleworth's post found here, http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/517
and found it both informative and enlightening.
Also the comments were for the most part respectful. Which you don't get much on the internet.
62 • RR Mint (by Jamie on 2010-09-20 23:33:52 GMT from United States)
I'm glad that mint went to Debian (as i posted last week here) for the sake of Linux, not Mint. Debain folk might not be too friendly to Mint people (no offence, I use neither), but I think it's a good idea, and if the Rolling Release actually rolls, it will be a big step away from the zeitgeist currently accepted regarding "releases". If all distros can be like arch/gentoo, then we are making real fundamental progress.
I must admit I am more interested in GNOME 3 or BSD9, and the PC-BSD interview was a bit disappointing, but at least OpenIndiana got added to the list. Imho, distrowatch readers care a bit less about asian language distros and more about things like CAINE vs BackTrack (which could be a feature comparison sometime!), but I always appreciate the news, and madriva and openSolaris living on (again, I use neither) are good news indeed.
I look forward to mondays now! How about that! =D
63 • DWW (by Landor on 2010-09-21 00:55:27 GMT from Canada)
I enjoyed the read again this week, a great issue of DistroWatch Weekly.
Reading the comments section, a couple things immediately jump out. Firstly, although it's been overstated, Debian Squeeze is not truly rolling release, nor is Debian Sid as both have points where they freeze, for a time. The latter due to the former, if I understand correctly.
Also, though I see they have a specific reason behind allowing unsigned packages, I can't for any reason consider this a good practice for Mint to do. It's a very bad move on a developer's part to allow such a potential vulnerability security wise, especially for a distribution that targets those that may not have the complete understanding of Linux and package management that they should. This reminds me of the similar practice with Windows. Though it might not be exactly the same, it's the same general reason why a Windows system is so easily infected. Not a good idea in my personal opinion. How many people will attempt to target their distribution now knowing full well there is such a way to exploit a vulnerability.
Regarding GRUB/GRUB2. As CM pointed out, one major issue with GRUB is the fact that it doesn't support booting from RAID, GRUB2 does. That may not be an issue for some, but for those of us that use(d) RAID, it creates another step that is bothersome. I will say that I prefer the simplicity of GRUB and in the regard to RAID willingly create a separate boot partition rather than switch to GRUB2.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
64 • LMDE (by SlaxFan on 2010-09-21 01:26:09 GMT from United States)
For a hard drive install I like Linux Mint Debian Edition. It properly sets up the sound card and wireless that Debian itself has problems with. Then I can change the sources.list and I'm set. Nice and easy. I hope they continue the project.
65 • LMDE (by KenWeiLL on 2010-09-21 01:58:11 GMT from Philippines)
"I do have a concern about LMDE, or more specifically, its timing. The Debian edition has been released at a point where Debian's Testing repository is relatively quiet. Debian development is in a feature freeze right now where they're fixing bugs in preparation for their next stable release. During this period the Testing repository LMDE pulls from is going to be comparatively calm. Once Debian "Squeeze" gets out the door, if LMDE continues to track the Testing repository, the users are going to be hit with a flood of packages moving from Debian Unstable into Debian Testing. What seems like a stable system now is likely to become a rougher ride when that happens."
That's where Mint Tools comes in very handy. mintUpdate does have some update levels. If you update using mint tools, you should be safe, at least. Mint main have these features. All Ubuntu updates doesn't just automatically gets to mintupdate unless you set it to.
66 • LMDE response (by RollMeAway on 2010-09-21 02:49:55 GMT from United States)
Mint has a nice blog entry concerning the reactions to the debian based release:
http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=1543
It answers many questions posed here.
67 • @21: Rolling releases (by Randall on 2010-09-21 03:28:19 GMT from United States)
> In my view, Arch is the only one that gets this right, but only because it does not attempt to make the initial installation ridiculously easy
Are you suggesting that Gentoo, another rolling-release distro, attempts to make the initial installation ridiculously easy? ;-)
68 • mint update warnings (by convert on 2010-09-21 05:14:36 GMT from United States)
Even if LMDE does warn users about unsigned packages, what does this mean for non-technical users or windows converts? I know some people will direct users to LMDE over main because of their dislike of ubuntu. They may not know to care about these unsigned repos, and what's worse is that some of them are defaults.
Lets use a windows example, and take IE's active x warnings. (bet windows users can see those in their sleep) After seeing so many warnings about unsigned controls wanting to run, i'm sure people just get used to pressing ok for whatever comes up. That in turn causes viruses and the like. If we have all these unsigned repo warnings, might new users be just as nonchalant about reading them.
And one other thing, after installing LMDE and getting ready to update the system, I'm hit with 309 updates, as of now, and a lot of them are unauthenticated. Looking through that list, there's items like openoffice updates, java, mono libs (i think the warnings correct on this one), cups, aptitude, among a host of others. The warning above says installing unauthenticated packages can allow malicious software to run on my system. Shouldn't the update repos have been trusted or something? Or might I worry these are bad?
Yes, I understand its for "intermediate" users. Yes, I know its a test run for now. These are just hypothetical scenarios that I thought of while running LMDE.
69 • Asian languages & Gentoo (by silent on 2010-09-21 05:59:32 GMT from Hungary)
"Imho, distrowatch readers care a bit less about asian language distros"
On the contrary, including distros from all arond the globe increases the number of readers. Anyway, the English language (through some steps like the Proto-Indo-European language) has an Asian origin according to the majority of scientists.
"Are you suggesting that Gentoo, another rolling-release distro, attempts to make the initial installation ridiculously easy? ;-)"
Well, the installation is actually ridiculously easy indeed - although that of Arch is very easy as well - you read the fine manual, and you have total control, you only get the things you want and the way you want them.
70 • Rolling release (by mandog on 2010-09-21 07:06:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have used rolling release for 4 years arch/Gentoo do a really good job when I used Sidux as it was called it was more broken than working. they are all easy to install. Just read the wiki Arch was the 1st distro I ever used in 2006 and I have never had to reinstall. LMDE has the makings of a good alternative.
71 • Re: 59 (by meiga on 2010-09-21 10:36:32 GMT from Spain)
Come on! Don't misunderstand the meaning. When Mandrake started, the graphical tools were "magical" because they tried to be simple and make things work without hacking ugly text files.
Among christians, the real magic is also forbidden. But I tell you that every honest christian will tell you that using the Mageia distro is _not_ practicing magic.
72 • @... (by Leroy on 2010-09-21 11:36:55 GMT from Serbia)
@52
Now, now, if they made a true Openbox edition, there would be no panel at all ;)
Anyway, this is why I think it happened, tint2 is easy to customize and with so many features. It's a fine little program, I've been using it for 6 months and it's fine and bugless. But if this was the reason Mint chose it over the FB panel, for customization features and so on, the irony is that they just slapped a generic config onto the distro, without bothering at all :) That said, Mint Fluxbox is my favorite Mint. There aren't too many Fluxbox or Openbox or other WMs editions of mainstream distros out there and this is a fine effort.
As for LMDE, I think it's funny how Ubuntu users and/or fanboys seem to be out in droves to criticize it all over the place. Are they worried? :D
Anyway when Debian testing becomes stable and unstable becomes testing and testing becomes unstable... it will feel like an average day with Ubuntu, I guess. Only it won't last forever.
@37 I don't feel that Canonical are being given a free pass over their behavior. They are severely criticized from many sides including from inside their own "community" and rightly so.
@49 Ubuntu increased its desktop share at the expense of other Linux distributions, not at the expense of MS or Apple or whatever. The line, "we contribute users", is just their PR, and it's not the dumbest thing they came up with either, it terms of PR, not it terms of facts. But once again: Ubuntu contributes "visibility" to Ubuntu, not to Linux. They don't even refer to the distro as Linux any more.
@66 I think Clem's approach to the community, of users, developers and the internet media, is truly admirable.
73 • Rolling releases (by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky on 2010-09-21 11:54:09 GMT from United States)
Yeah - I ran Gentoo "~arch" for years and it was fun and I learned a lot, but in the end, even though my system seldom broke to the point where I needed to do a rebuild, I was spending all my time emerging stuff and not much time using the machine.
So I think "rolling releases" are a bad idea even for the hard-core bleeding-edge people. Now that we have nice virtualizers, especially VirtualBox Open Source Edition, you can play all you want on the edge *and* get productive work done! ;-)
74 • re:57 Mandriva (by Anonymous on 2010-09-21 13:19:10 GMT from Canada)
Mandriva = Mandrake + Conectiva
I like Mageia name, too. Aptosid on the other hand, sounds like name for acid reflux medicine ;-)
75 • re 59:Mageia = Magic (by Anonymous on 2010-09-21 13:35:40 GMT from Canada)
It's too bad that religion prevents you from using possibly good distro.
Btw. " tactics to affect people’s minds so as to see what is unreal and believe it to be reality " to alot of people this is the definition of religion. No offense.
76 • RE: re 59:Mageia = Magic (by Manfred Manfriend on 2010-09-21 13:54:03 GMT from United States)
>>>It's too bad that religion prevents you from using possibly good distro.
Btw.<<<
I don't think it is so much a concern that HE would actually **be** practicing magic by using the distro, so much as it is a concern that someone else might accuse him of doing so. And face it, even in the most enlightened society computers are still considered magic by many otherwise intelligent people. It simply isn't worth the risk.
77 • Rolling sidux in the mud? (by Antony on 2010-09-21 13:55:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
@ 70:
".......when I used Sidux as it was called it was more broken than working."
Well, as is usual, you will find others who's experience will parallel yours. However, I am sure there are plenty of people who's experience would be just the opposite. I used sidux for quite a while - since it was born, in fact (was using Kanotix prior to that), till fairly recently.
I can honestly say that I had no more trouble using sidux than any other distro. More effort required in terms of routinely overseeing updates process - but no real trouble as such, just the extra resposibility that is expected of the user.
Post-install can take a while to set up, if inclined, due to the level of 'pruning' on offer. Actual install though was sub 5 minutes.
Somehow, there is this idea or expectation that sidux is synonymous with disaster and evil-spirits and that sooner rather than later, your house will collapse, you will become infertile and your crops will fail.............
I found sidux to be very stable, and more predictable than a few distros I've tried. It was also fast.
My lack of 'special' negative issues while using sidux must surely be a fluke though.....as I certainly am no Linux sorcerer..
Oh, anyone who used sidux (as it was called) for any length of time would know that it was sidux with a lower-case s.
78 • @ #15 DebMint... Great Idea.... but... (by Manfred Manfriend on 2010-09-21 13:56:18 GMT from United States)
Can we just not do the whole Gnome flamewar thing? Please? No one is forcing you to use it, since you clearly state you like KDE why not use the KDE version of the distro? Why do you seem to think your distaste means that I shouldn't be allowed to use Gnome as my chosen desktop?
79 • FreeBSD (by Algyzas on 2010-09-21 13:59:40 GMT from Lithuania)
bulk-data journalling effort, making no distinction between data and metadata, requiring a large journal. The SUJ mode is an add-on to SoftUpdates, extending it to record a very small intent-log journal for the edge-cases where it required a (light version of) fsck. This development makes UFS a fully fsck-less file system in the common case. Users of UFS quotas will be happy to finally have 64-bit quota counters, allowing more than 2 TB quota rules, and security-conscious will probably soon endorse NFSv4-style ACL security rules. Default tuning for the UFS has also changed a bit (by me), making it significantly faster with devices which support tagged queueing (like SATA with AHCI) and where disk access latencies are high (like in virtualized environment).
Who the hell is interesting in theese things? Secure, ufs, nfs, acl... What is preventing me from using FreBSD is that my old webcam and even older tv tuner is not working. So you guys wanna more users sometimes, ok, make some webcams work better, make some 10 years old tv tuners work, then you'll get some users, ok? Unfortunately for now they are working only in Linux/Win. Unless you don't care, then see you ;)
80 • MintDE and things (by davemc on 2010-09-21 22:09:44 GMT from United States)
Amazing some of the comments..
"5 • Ubuntu replaced (by eric on 2010-09-20 12:58:01 GMT from United States)
LMDE has more or less filled Ubuntu's niche. I can only wonder how long Ubuntu can stay at the top considering this new "competitor" and Canonical's uncertain future."
Really? In what way are they "competitors"? Mint is not a true Distro on its own merits. It is an "overlay" that rides on top of real Distro bases such as Ubuntu and Debian. Don't confuse one with the other. Mint could be considered a symbiote by strictest definition of the word, or parasite by others. In this way, theoretically, Mint can be hosted on any Distro - Fedora, Debian, Slackware, etc.. Mint can never replace a real Distro, only enhance an existing one and make it better, so in that sense, Mint makes Ubuntu better and drives many more users to it, because by using Main Mint, you are in reality using Ubuntu, just as by using MintDE, you are in reality using Debian.
"16 Debian Testing on the other hand is more along the lines of Fedora Rawhide or Mandriva Cooker: a permanent development zone for working the bugs out of "future-stable." It is the last of the Debian branches to receive bug fixes and security patches, and the most likely to be broken for an extended period, if such breakage furthers the goal of producing the best possible Stable release. By definition Debian Testing can never be stable, because as soon as it does reach zero-bug-stability, it becomes Debian Stable. Furthermore, it does not "roll" in the sense that users get a steady stream of new packages as they become available; rather, it has a roughly two-year cycle of rapid change slowing to a trickle. You end up with a system that varies quite a bit in stability and "freshness" over time, from fairly stable and well-tested one year to new and buggy the next year, which is the opposite of what most people are looking for in a "rolling release."
Mint should have based their Debian "spin" on Squeeze (not Testing) so it smoothly transitions to Debian Stable. They are doing their users a big disservice in my opinion by promising a smooth rolling release; perhaps the claim is merely naive instead of deceptive? It is a shame, too, since my test drive of LMDE shows a lot of promise."
Exactly right. MintDE users will come to an extremely rude awakening when their systems break "hardcore style" after the Testing repo floodgates are once again opened. VERY poor decision making involved here on the Mint teams part. Shame!
"21 • Rolling releases (by David Smith on 2010-09-20 14:58:33 GMT from Canada)
'Rolling releases' which inject updates to the kernel and userland components on an almost daily basis can be highly problematic from the end-user perspective, and only those who want (and are prepared) to learn some pretty hairy under the hood stuff should approach such distros.
Unfortunately this isn't always made clear by those who seek to pump up the numbers, popularity (and perhaps, in some cases -- notoriety) of their release."
Spot on again. Your correct also about ArchLinux, and having experience with a wide range of true "rolling release" distro's, I can tell you that ALL of them inject system breaking updates from time to time. This includes Debian Testing.
"37 • Mint Debian review (by Anonymous on 2010-09-20 18:04:48 GMT from Canada)
Why do we want to give Canonical a free pass for this behavior, while Novell was blasted for the way they developed XGL and Apple was bashed over the Webkit code dumps?"
Nobody is giving Canonical a "free pass" for anything. They are a Corporation exactly like HP, Novell, Red Hat, Microsoft, Dell, and others. They are doing what they see fit to run a business. Why are you not complaining about Red Hat's complete lack of interest in user friendly enhancements? Why dont you whine about Microsoft's patenting a shutdown button? Why dont you complain about Oracle suing Google over Android/java?.. Duh!
"59 • 57 • RE: #55 Mageia = Magic (by Salaam Alikum on 2010-09-20 22:08:27 GMT from United States)
Magic is the use of certain devices or tactics or material to affect people’s minds so as to see what is unreal and believe it to be reality. Some people resort to it in order to have influence on others and make them do their bidding. Magic is emphatically forbidden. To learn it is forbidden, and to practice it is considered similar to disbelief in Allah. I cannot use Mageia."
Your interpretation of the Holy Books meanings are very different from mainstream Muslim belief and teachings.
"72 • @... (by Leroy on 2010-09-21 11:36:55 GMT from Serbia)
As for LMDE, I think it's funny how Ubuntu users and/or fanboys seem to be out in droves to criticize it all over the place. Are they worried? :D
Anyway when Debian testing becomes stable and unstable becomes testing and testing becomes unstable... it will feel like an average day with Ubuntu, I guess. Only it won't last forever."
See above to #5's comment response. Why should any distro feel worried over Mint's overlay enhancements to their own distro's base? As I said, Mint is not a real Distro by its own rights as it does not have a base, just a frontend.
Your also very wrong about how Debian Testing works and how Ubuntu does things. They are two completely different animals and can not be compared. Ubuntu LTS bases off a snapshot of Debian Testing and highly modifies it and stabilizes it. Ubuntu point releases base off a Debain Sid snapshot, which is severely unstable and prone to breakage. Why they base point releases off Sid snapshots defies any logic I can come up with, but there it is and that is the real reason for why point releases can be prone to issues. However, they do spend alot of Developmental effort to stabilize each point release so it is generally stable for the vast majority of users at, or soon after release.
81 • Correction (by davemc on 2010-09-21 22:15:23 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu bases its point releases off a Debian Unstable snapshot
82 • Debian testing (by tomas on 2010-09-21 22:51:00 GMT from Slovenia)
I dont know about the future state of debian testing but I use arch and I always keep it up to date, without it ever breaking.
So basically, I think your argument about the LMDE breaking in the future is void.
83 • Ubuntu bashing (by Frank on 2010-09-21 22:52:51 GMT from United States)
It's really getting ridiculous reading some of the posters that have nothing better to do than bash Ubuntu. The fact is, without Ubuntu, linux users would still be in the dark ages using the command line for many things we take for granted. Sure, Mandrake/Mandriva was around before Ubuntu came along and targeted newbees, but look where Mandriva is now. The reality is, as much as some of you dislike Ubuntu, what they offer is an excellent FREE desktop system, as well as a FREE server system. If you don't like Ubuntu, you can always choose something else like Fedora or Debian....and spend hours trying to get it installed.
84 • LMDE (by Anonymous on 2010-09-22 00:47:46 GMT from United States)
Debian appears to like it,
Take a look at their current news:
http://debian.org/News/weekly/2010/12/
85 • RE: #83 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-22 01:47:13 GMT from Italy)
If Canonical intent was to create an easy Linux Desktop, they reinvented the wheel.
You already mentioned Mandrake. And what about Lindows/Linspire? Xandros? (open)SUSE? Ark Linux? JAMD? And countless other which can be found on the list of active or discontinued distributions.
The last time I installed Debian I didn't spend hours trying to get it installed. In fact it was pretty straightforward. Even more so with Mandriva, openSUSE, Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Fedora...
86 • FreeBSD 9 (by Johan on 2010-09-22 02:51:16 GMT from Indonesia)
Can't wait for FreeBSD 9. FreeBSD rocks!
87 • RE: 81 ('Correction') (by Ed on 2010-09-22 02:59:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
I believe that Ubuntu 10.04 LTS was based on Debian testing.
88 • @83 (by Josh on 2010-09-22 03:18:07 GMT from United States)
@83: Wow, you seriously live in a closed world. Is slackware one of those dark age distros? Ubuntu may make it super easy, but it does have its faults where other distros outshine it. In some cases, ubuntu is the one in the dark. As for taking hours to install, even slackware doesn't unless you go through every individual package (expert install). Fedora doesn't take much more time than ubuntu and you have a system that can easily compete with an unmodified ubuntu, and its more up to date IMO. Same as posters bashing ubuntu, and yes I agree it does get annoying at times, but do we really need someone glorifying it to heights it really hasn't achieved. And don't think I'm a ubuntu basher, as it is currently my main system.
As for LMDE, good review. As a test distro, its fairing very well. The software manager has a bug in it where it won't display the entire list in the all packages section. It stops at archmage for me. The only way I can make it display anything more is to type something in the search bar. The app looks like it freezes, but after about 5-10 seconds it displays alot more packages. I think I'll go look for a bug report.
89 • Re: FreeBSD (by django on 2010-09-22 08:47:36 GMT from United States)
@79
Then FreeBSD is NOT for you.
I'm happy with the new improvements and prefer it as my main server OS for a long time and haven't been dissappointed.
It has everything I want and is what I trust to attach to the internet.
What you need is a desktop operating system if you want your webcam to be supported and I would say Windows or easy Linux OSes like Ubuntu, Linux Mint, OpenSuse would do the trick.
90 • BSD, Windows, OpenIndiana (by mechanic on 2010-09-22 10:12:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
@89
Yes I find Windows Vista an excellent rolling release, updates every month! And at least with Windows all the hardware is recognised and usable, wifi and scanners included. No compatibility probs with OpenOffice, just use MS-Office.
If people really want a system where users are practically discouraged from installing and trying to get a desktop system to work, give OpenBSD a spin. Gnome can be installed on it, fine if you like that 1990s look. At least FreeBSD has good community support for what it does.
Let's hope OpenSolaris/Indiana takes off, the published stuff so far encourages me to believe that we may finally have a Linux alternative that values users. Just don't expect it to be happy with all your hardware yet.
91 • Corrections and stuff (by davemc on 2010-09-22 10:18:04 GMT from United States)
#87 - Yes, LTS releases are based on Testing, while point releases are based on Unstable.
92 • Grub2 (reference to posts 18, 32,38, 40,42 etc) (by Sly on 2010-09-22 14:07:08 GMT from United States)
I fixed my Grub2 problem by wiping the primary harddrive and reloading with Mint Linux. Mint recognized the 2nd harddrive and picked up Opensuse 11.3 in the boot menu. A side benefit is that Opensuse loads much faster. This was definately low-tech solution, but it worked!!
I have a Grub2 manual and will dive into it when I have more time.
93 • OpenIndiana (by Auronandace on 2010-09-22 15:31:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Really good to see this project!
Ever since the Oracle/Sun takeover OpenSolaris seemed outright neglected and doomed to fail. But it is good to see a true opensource and open community effort towards Solaris.
I sincerely hope this goes well and the Illumos foundation deserves support, encouragement and success.
94 • RE 93, OpenIndiana (by Anonymous on 2010-09-22 15:35:18 GMT from United States)
Grabbed the ISO and looking forward to checking it out. It'll be a first foray into SolarisLand.
95 • RE 84 LMDE Debian News (by Anonymous on 2010-09-22 17:39:23 GMT from United States)
I don't view the Debian news release as an endorsement in any way. Seems you're taking the post out of context a bit. Whether Debian "likes it" or not is irrelevant. I read it as Debian being cordial and letting the LMDE devs know there is an established communication path with upstream should they choose to use it.
96 • @Caitlyn re: VectorLinux (by Fred Mertz on 2010-09-22 19:23:05 GMT from United States)
I'm using the occasion of Vector's 6.0 SOHO Deluxe release to ask the following: What is Vector based on now, if it has moved away from Slack? Are there any faster KDE4 implementations out there?
Thanks.
97 • #96: Vector Linux SOHO (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-22 20:22:33 GMT from United States)
All the Vector Linux 6.x builds, including SOHO Deluxe, are based on Slackware.
The change, for Vector Linux 7 (now in alpha) is that Vector is developing it's own core. That makes VL7 and independent, developed from scratch distro not based on anything else, albeit with Slackware roots. It will still be Slackware compatible and use a modified Slackware packaging system as it always has. The only real change is that the core packages other than the kernel won't just be Slackware packages rebuilt to allow automated dependency checking and the versions may be newer than those is the current Slackware release. VL may actually be closer to Slackware-current.
At least that is how I understand it. Please remember that I am not directly involved with VectorLinux any more and these questions are best directed to the VL developers.
98 • RE:95 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-22 23:35:41 GMT from United States)
From Debian Project News:
"The addition of Linux Mint to the Debian derivatives family is a welcome one, and should the Linux Mint developers wish to be in contact with Debian it has been suggested that they will be warmly welcomed at the Debian Derivatives Front Desk."
I guess when they said: "is a welcome one"
and when they followed with: "they will be warmly welcomed"
This just sounded or seemed to me that, they sort of like the new addition.
just my 2c's
Thanks DW!
99 • accessing DW (by Josh on 2010-09-23 00:16:13 GMT from United States)
Is anyone having the same problem described in this forum: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r24828380-Distrowatch-disappeared
I have this problem only at work. Seeing what this says, it may be my work's dns or something. I'll try a few things on my computer, but I have no control over the servers. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
100 • @99 Distrowatch Triangle (by Anonymous on 2010-09-23 00:38:05 GMT from United States)
I saw it yesterday, but then it came back up.
101 • @99,100 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-23 01:03:43 GMT from United States)
Disappeared on me too. A "Parallels" page came up instead, back today (Wed) though. Maybe the server?
102 • DW access (by Josh on 2010-09-23 01:37:10 GMT from United States)
Yea, possibly the dns cache. I did flush the cache on my computer, but that didn't work. I'll try it again. Otherwise, I may have to figure out how to access it from a different dns server. Weird thing is, it says there is no web page for the address, and even typing in the specific ip address doesn't work. Though, it does resolve correctly.
103 • Virtual distro tryouts (by WindThumb on 2010-09-23 01:40:12 GMT from United States)
No one owes it to us beginners to tell us whether each distro is suitable to a tryout by virtual machine--most likely using VirtualBox. That information would be helpful to know, however. I suppose that the information in distro documentation or in a review would provide the in-the-know user with enough facts for determining whether a quick virtual tryout is possible, but we newbies aren't sure what terms and facts to look for.
I recall that with some distros on VirtualBox it's possible to be using the web within five minutes, where trying to use others is a total wash. A bigger issue than whether a beginner would be inconvenienced is whether a beginner might misjudge a good distro that is best installed or used from live media.
104 • @103 VBox (by Anonymous on 2010-09-23 02:06:56 GMT from United States)
Funny you mention it. Just started this stuff tonight, so far:
ArchBang- FAIL
Slackware 13.1- Works Great
CentOS 5.4- Works Great
Seems live disks are a bit trickier from what I gather. ISO that are really just installers work. YMMV, of course. Maybe a vbox pro can chime in on the topic, my experience is limited.
PS Arch Fanbois...
Calm down. =P
105 • @102 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-23 02:19:25 GMT from United States)
It WAS funny because it didn't just look like DW was missing it looked like it had been replaced (GULP!), even changed the little icon in my address window and bookmarks to a "Parallels" icon. LOL!
Need a different DNS server http://www.opendns.com (and it's free!)
106 • RE: 99 -102 DW access (by ladislav on 2010-09-23 02:59:38 GMT from Taiwan)
Yes, we lost the site for a few hours on Wednesday. It was apparently caused by a human error at the web hosting company (a typo in an IP address - at least that's what I was told). Sorry for the trouble :-)
107 • re:Josh (by Frank on 2010-09-23 03:43:07 GMT from United States)
To the guy who said Slackware is easy, are you joking ? At one time Slackware was easier to use than some of the other distros, but those days are long gone. Currently Slackware lags way behind most of the distros in ease of use.
I find it amusing that your reply included generalized bashing of Ubuntu without providing any specifics. The reality is, even in 2010 I wouldn't recommend very many linux distros to my Windows friends. Ubuntu is one of the exceptions because it's polished, easy to install, has an excellent package management system, and just works. Apparently millions of new Ubuntu users agree with me.
108 • DW (by Josh on 2010-09-23 05:40:32 GMT from United States)
It really was no trouble, just kind of interesting since it only happened at my place of work. I just assumed it had something to do with our end. Hopefully, I'll have better luck tomorrow. I'll let you know.
@107: As for my comments on what you were saying, I never said slackware was easy. I was just asking a question if thats what you consider a dark age distro. I know slackware lags behind most modern distros, but that is their choice.
As for specifics, I didn't plan on typing any. Its just my opinion that even if ubuntu didn't exist, easy linux distros wouldn't be that far behind in ease of use if at all. I do agree with you that ubuntu is definitely one of the best distros for no hassle use, along with mint and a few others, and probably the best to recommend to new users.
109 • @103 @104 VBox Distros (by meanpt on 2010-09-23 09:49:12 GMT from Portugal)
I extensively use distros in VB virtual machines and have more than a dozen installed this way. Fast booters? Knoppix CD and Zenwalk's. Before those you have the dying DSL, Xpud (seems also to be dying) and TinyCore (depending on what you have installed). The last ArchBang Testing installed surprisingly fine this time. Nonetheless, my 64 bit distro didn't add any running speed.
110 • Distrowatch disappeared (by Old Timer on 2010-09-23 10:52:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
Me too, it came up with a server template page.
I had assumed that Distrowatch was off line for maintenance.
I am glad it wasn't down but as far as I can see it was more likely a server issue, as it was seen by that many people, externally.
111 • Random responses (by KimTjik on 2010-09-23 11:26:31 GMT from Sweden)
Another advantage of Grub2:
It understands GUID Partition Table, not only on UEFI but also BIOS based systems. It has plenty of advantages over MBR, which really is a dinosaur not well fitted for modern systems.
...
To the debate about Ubuntu, I'll add my own reflection: in my opinion it's a bit sad Mark didn't hook up, spent his money on, and possibly improved the management of Mandriva. As it is now, we don't really know if Ubuntu by itself made such a huge impact as some want to believe, or it mostly grabbed Mandrivas user base with its natural increase of users.
As a respond to the anonymous writer from Italy (as of this post post #54), I think it's a bit unfair to be so harsh. The bugginies is on the other hand something that perplex me as well. Overall it works but you also at times encounter weird buggs, which in itself isn't catastrophic since all software have bugs, but become annoying since it for some reason might be frustrating difficult to fix in comparison to other distribution. I don't know - since I've never used Ubuntu as my own main system - if this is a side effect of the attempt to make it easier to use. When you talk about "arrogant n00bs" I can assure you that this isn't the fault of Ubuntu per se, but something you see a lot independent of OS. You at times find even more arrogant n00bs among overclockers that has no knowledge of real hardware settings but use simplistic software tools, or among narrow minded Windows users never questioning why they perform the same clicking routine over and over again. The list of such examples is long, but don't blame Ubuntu for that.
...
I side note about the struggle between so called "user friendliness", familiarity, habit, or what best describe it: studies have shown that learning and brain abilities are improved when the software is less "helpful". Hence there's a unpleasant border between dumbing down and improving efficiency. I don't claim that Linux users generally are smarter, but I still think there's a reason why certain users feel more efficient when the OS does makes less decisions. We can choose to stimulate certain abilities of our brain, like interpreting patterns and structures, and hence focus our computing on tasks that really make us more efficient, instead of becoming dependent on mindless repetition. Unfortunately it looks like we're creating a new generation of mostly the latter option.
112 • @111 grub (by Anonymous on 2010-09-23 14:27:35 GMT from Canada)
Hi
KimTjik
You say:
It understands GUID Partition Table, not only on UEFI but also BIOS based systems. It has plenty of advantages over MBR, which really is a dinosaur not well fitted for modern systems.
Can you point me to a tutorial for Grub2?
I have read (but not studied) this one:
http://www.justlinux.com/forum/showthread.php?p=861282#post861282 .
I have been using linux for about 4-5 years but remain a newbie as once a linux version is installed there is rarely any need to "get under the Hood"
My main interest has been books--Gutenberg plus many other sites. I am amazed that , thanks to the internet, I have access to a "library" that is larger than any national library of a hundred years
ago. That should be "instant access"
(my immediate interest is a new hdd on which I would like to install W7; perhaps leave a coupe of primary partitions blank for future use (if this is possible) and then create 5-10 logical partitions for linux flavours. The tutorials just say use a live cd to do this but do not give specifics. Probably because the process is so simple that the tutorial authors think anyone would know.)
Thanks
113 • DW access (by Josh on 2010-09-23 15:47:24 GMT from United States)
I'm not sure why, but I still can't access the site, at least through normal means. Right now, I am using a web proxy server. I'm not so concerned as long as it works. (correction: after writing all this (bout 15 min), trying it again normally its started working, no proxy server.)
@111: Your last statement I completely agree with. Mindless repitition will, in the end, usually create more problems than if you know what you are doing. Some people say your brain is like a muscle and if you don't use it you'll lose it, and I've personally seen an account of this statement's truth.
Your second statement is good too. I agree, but I'm glad Mark put his money in Ubuntu and not toward Mandriva. Who knows if any amount of money would have helped them in the end, unless it was endless.
As for weird bugs, a few nights ago ubuntu just decided to change my theme and folder icon set. It had been running for a while so it wasn't on boot up. Even after changing it, it didn't restore my folder icons correctly. I had to kill x to get it back to normal, so no big deal.
114 • @112: Grub2 (by KevinC on 2010-09-23 23:47:12 GMT from United States)
Good tutorial:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/grub-2.html
For simple stuff, w/ Ubuntu (-based), sudo apt-get install startup-manager or w/ Synaptic is a good util for grub2.
115 • RE@107 (by Kailash on 2010-09-24 04:27:55 GMT from India)
Wow, You think ubuntu provides multimedia support by default and it is the best distro.
For fedora you just need easylife which will take care of everything ...practically everything which you need even for a newbie.
I have tried most of the distros available and I have had a horrible time with Ubuntu 10.04...
First of all, the cd only boots in live mode irrespective of whether you choose install or boot option. Then it waits at login prompt when no password is actually applicable. I followed it up with Ubuntu developers for more than a week before finally giving up. Grub2 really sucks. I don't think newbies would stay with linux if this is how things are.
116 • bits (by Leroy on 2010-09-24 09:15:50 GMT from Serbia)
@ 111, what an excellent post. But distros that aim to be popular have to dumb things down to suit their targeted audience. It's just puzzling that they still fail. And the world is such as it is because, who encourages and needs smart computer users? Smart consumers? Smart voters? Nobody. I find it funny for instance, how Canonical even hid the "check CD integrity" option from their live CD. That sure is one confusing screen. And anyway what do they know or care about integrity.
Also, I'm reading this Archbang announcement on the front page and I can't help but notice how much comedy there is in the Linux world. A lightweight Linux with Openbox that comes with 64-bit version as priority? Why does it even have a 64-bit version?
117 • find a linux program developer client distru.. (by Thomas Wang on 2010-09-24 09:16:24 GMT from Taiwan)
Hello , I am Thomas Wang who like to find a linux client distribution for program developing workbench, it including a lot of tools on program developing.
118 • Fully Realized Slackatar (by RobertD on 2010-09-24 10:18:32 GMT from United States)
In aprox two months I have mastered all four elements i.e., cli, grep, Vi, and emacs. OK, Ok! I have not mastered anything but my training and education has been fierce over the last two months and I now consider myself a true Linux user. I have spent the last 3 weeks operating strictly from the command line without the use of X. This has been a harsh learning experience but has taught me the basics of Linux without all the fluff.
Someone said earlier that Slackware is easy. Really! Simple maybe but not easy is how I would describe it. Simple in the sense that everything seems to work. Slackwares's strict adherence to the Unix like file structure makes it a pleasure to work with.
Now there is peace amongst the four nations
119 • #116: 64-bit and lightweight DOES make sense (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-24 13:04:19 GMT from United States)
@Leroy: Why have a 64-bit lightweight distro? For those of us who have modern 64-bit systems which we do, at times, push to the limits, a lightweight 64-bit distro is ideal. A 32-bit distro will have inferior performance for tasks which use the full capacity of a 64-bit CPU. Any time you reduce the resources used for the desktop and remove unneeded cruft you free up those resources for other tasks. A lightweight 64-bit distro is precisely what I look for and it is one of the reasons why I run SalixOS on the desktop.
This isn't comedy. The folks at distros like ArchBang and SalixOS recognize that processing power doesn't need to be used for eye candy and fluff. They fill a niche that not many distros have chosen to fill. Just because you don't understand the need for something or the value of a distro does NOT mean there is no value there.
120 • VBox (and Dream Linux PHR gaming) (by Anonymous on 2010-09-24 13:27:34 GMT from United States)
I think I have a new vice in VirtualBox. So far I've installed about a dozen distros. Scientific Linux 5.4 machine gets run a fair bit so I can get some more redhat exposure. Salix LXDE gets run the most, what a great Slack derivative (except for that hideous mouse theme).
I hadn't tested Dream Linux in some time, so I thought I'd give it a go. On the default firefox there is a link to DWW on the bookmarks toolbar, but it doesn't go to the main page. Imagine that- It goes straight to the DWW page for Dream Linux. I can tell you this, it's not a very impressive distro and it didn't waste space on my disk for long. It makes me wonder how many other distros game the PHR so shamelessly. I propose a ranking penalty for any distro that does this. Drop them down the list by 20 spots automatically until they stop gaming the system.
121 • RE: 120 Dream Linux PHR gaming (by ladislav on 2010-09-24 13:31:17 GMT from Taiwan)
Hits that come directly from a browser bookmark are not counted anyway, so no harm done.
122 • @121 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-24 13:33:44 GMT from United States)
Cool. Thanks for the quick clarification, Ladislav.
123 • RE: 116 (by Landor on 2010-09-25 01:54:41 GMT from Canada)
I have to agree with you. Many people consider 64 bit heavy and it doesn't coincide with a lighter distribution. I've argued the point that the lighter the system the more resources you have available (not to mention the responsiveness) to do the job(s) you need to get done.
I forget who it was that said last week that pretty well someone using LXDE uses it on 32-bit systems as they don't want the heaviness of 64-bit. I didn't respond to that and wanted to. I immediately thought, if that was the case, then why do the developers of LXDE feel the need to create a 64-bit version. :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
124 • oops (by Landor on 2010-09-25 01:55:33 GMT from Canada)
that should be in reply to 119, CM's post.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
125 • LFS 6.7 finished (by RollMeAway on 2010-09-26 04:47:40 GMT from United States)
About 5 years ago, I built a lfs installation. Much work, and abandoned quickly.
I decided to give it another go, with the announcement last week of LFS 6.7.
I worked from an existing distro, following the book closely. It took me 7 session
with a total of 22 hours invested to successfully boot into the lfs partition.
Mind you, this is booting to a black terminal only, with very few useful apps.
This time I have a much greater appreciation for what it takes to make an
independent linux distribution. Aside from some knowledge gained, I'm not sure
I have the drive to continue on with BLFS (Beyond Linux From Scratch).
I've browsed through the BLFS docs, and the task seems daunting.
In the end one would have a VERY personal system, but without any means of
managing packages. That means manual updating with no dependency checking.
Sounds a lot like slackware?
Does nyone out there that actually USE a LFS or BLFS system?
126 • Archbang (by Neal on 2010-09-26 12:26:51 GMT from United States)
Wow...archbang sounds cool.....too bad I can't try it out as a 32bit version isn't available yet. What do they mean it'll be ready by the end of the week? What week?
127 • lfs (by Anonymous on 2010-09-26 23:05:41 GMT from United States)
I think it might be worse than slackware. At least in slackware, you have slackbuilds, and a few other sites. In LFS, I wonder if anyone is mantaining any type of repo. Or, are you stuck compiling all software on your own and manually keeping track of updates and changes and what not. Sounds like alot of work if u ask me, but its a good learning tool. Though, congratulations for succeeding in such a task.
128 • LFS == learning tool ... I agree. (by jake on 2010-09-27 03:38:25 GMT from United States)
I've installed LFS for every major release since the year 2,000 ... Not as a means to an end, but rather for the journey. I have never failed to learn something new ... but I never intend to use LFS for day-to-day work.
If you want to learn how Linux works, make a serious effort at figuring out LFS ... When you have a working system, nuke it & install Slackware on the desktops & BSD on the servers. You'll never look back.
Or just install bog-stock LinuxMINT & be done with it, without learning anything ... I was recommending computer-illiterate non-gamer friends purchase Apple gear, but now I'm suggesting that they allow me to install Mint on their old PCs instead of purchasing new hardware ... close to 20 installs later, and I have had zero complaints. Maybe *buntu had a raison d'être after all ...
129 • @128 BLFS ? (by RollMeAway on 2010-09-27 05:13:18 GMT from United States)
So, Jake, have you ever had the stamina to continue on, after lfs.
Have you taken it to running xorg and a dm/wm?
I see from a distrowatch search, that 9 distros were once based upon lfs.
All are no longer active.
One exception is NuTyX, coincidental released last Saturday, the 19th.
But, their release notes say it is NOW based upon gentoo.
Sounds like nobody has successfully built a sustainable distro from lfs.
130 • @129 (by jake on 2010-09-27 06:02:58 GMT from United States)
Re-read mine for content. You might learn something.
Number of Comments: 130
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