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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Mint Debian is great news to FOSS (by manmath sahu on 2010-09-13 10:01:52 GMT from India)
I am sure Mint Debian is a dream come true for open source enthusiasts! I tried it this morning... It's really great, especially I like for its speed and simplicity.
2 • OpenBSD 4.8 (by David on 2010-09-13 10:39:49 GMT from United States)
Some of the more notable features for 4.8 will be resume and suspend for acpi based laptops.
David
3 • RedFlag Linux (by Seatux on 2010-09-13 11:06:54 GMT from Malaysia)
Kinda odd that the N.Koreans are interested in making their Linux look like Windows XP though its never officially sold there.
4 • Lunar Linux 1.6.5 / NVIDIA / alsa (by DG on 2010-09-13 11:20:34 GMT from Netherlands)
When the Lunar Linux 1.6.5 ISO was released, it was so hot off the press that the ISO
contained the 2.6.35.3 kernel, which was the same as in the central repository, so there
was no obvious need to rebuild the kernel. Now that the 2.6.35.4 kernel is available in
the central repository, we have found a problem where the initial "lunar update" does
not automatically update the kernel with the new version as it should.
The reason for this is currently under investigation.
In the meantime, users are advised that that they will need to run "lin linux-2.6" explicitly,
reboot to the new kernel, and then run the initial "lunar update" before customizing further.
NVIDIA and alsa require access to files installed as part of the kernel build process.
Therefore building the kernel explicitly will also avoid problems with installing NVIDIA
and alsa, as reported by several users on the #lunar irc channel.
5 • Minimum requirements (by vk-18 on 2010-09-13 11:20:54 GMT from France)
I know most of the Linux (and BSD...) enthusiasts have big bad machines, but one of the interests of Linux (definetly not the least) is older hardware.
Even for a common Laptop with 2GB of RAM and plenty of space it would be interesting to compare ressource-efficiency.
What about adding the info on the distro pages? Mentioning requirements to install the latest Windows Pro version could be mentionned as a reference.
6 • redFlag (by chris on 2010-09-13 11:24:58 GMT from United States)
It looks like KDE not XP
where are the similarities to XP?
7 • Red Star not Red Flag (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-13 11:39:35 GMT from United States)
It's also Red Star, not Red Flag, which is a Chinese distribution.
8 • Really? (by pinko on 2010-09-13 11:57:32 GMT from United States)
Do we have an unlikely Linux-using ally in North Korea or is this just another evil plot of the authoritarian government to spy on its citizens as some have claimed?
Considering the majority of North Korean citizens can barely afford to live, let alone purchase a computer, this question is silly. The real question should have been "Why do governments that claim to have their citizens needs at heart always waste time and money with such frivolous things when its citizens live in such extreme poverty?"
9 • RedFlag (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2010-09-13 11:59:07 GMT from United States)
He was saying that the main menu looks like the silver themed menu from Windows XP.
10 • Debian Mint!? (by lefty.crupps on 2010-09-13 12:00:06 GMT from United States)
Debian Mint is so very exciting, but please Clem and team, create a KDE version! There are enough GNOME-based remasters of the regular Ubuntu and Mint already, but a KDE version (perhaps with KDE- or Qt-based tools? :D) would surely rule the world, or get very close....
11 • Re: Aptosid (by silent on 2010-09-13 12:02:03 GMT from France)
Aptosid sounds a bit like 'apoptosis' (loosely pronounced as ap'tosis), the process of programmed cell death or 'Altosid', a terpenoid chemical for mosquito control.
12 • UHU-Linux 2.2 (by Saleem Khan on 2010-09-13 12:30:40 GMT from Pakistan)
Jesse Smith,
Hello, Thanks for a nicely written review about Knoppix. Could you please review UHU-Linux 2.2 in next week DW , there are no available reviews about this dsitro.The last ones were by Planète Béranger but they are not available anywhere now.
Regards,
13 • Devil's advocate (by Lizard on 2010-09-13 12:54:53 GMT from India)
I'm a human-rights activist myself, but let me play devil's advocate on this RedStar thingy and point out some strictly logical fallacies. Firstly, I'm unable to find any proof that the distro was developed by nkorea government. Secondly, a government developing an OS is not an oppressive act in itself. Even India's government has developed a distro named BOSS with all Indian localizations, hoping that it will bring computing to the rural masses who are not literate in English. However, it should be considered as oppressive when a government takes away citizens' right to use some other OS/distro. Again, there is no proof yet that nkorea government is doing so.
14 • sidux vs apostid (by pedro on 2010-09-13 13:11:02 GMT from United States)
Did I completely miss coverage of this? I'd like to know more about what happened regarding the dispute.
15 • Mint and Grub (by Old Timer on 2010-09-13 13:13:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
Mint is great, a real polished OS, but basing itself on Ubuntu is a problem, because it brings along a lot of unnecessary stuff (such as grub2, etc).
Mint Debian Flux. now that would be a great idea!
16 • Mint and Grub (by anticapitalista on 2010-09-13 13:20:51 GMT from Greece)
# Mint Debian uses grub2
17 • Red Star (by Alan UK on 2010-09-13 14:08:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
Assuming that the N.Korean government has computers, just what are they using at present?
Maybe they've bought old Soviet-era kit? Did the Soviets use Unix?
Can anyone living in N.Korea actually own a pc for home use?
18 • Red Star (by torz on 2010-09-13 14:20:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
North korea has their own intranet and they are not connected to the Internet. Only a selected few members of the ruling party can access the Internet.
19 • ArchBang (by marko on 2010-09-13 14:21:53 GMT from Serbia)
This is very good news.Arch and Openbox is so nice combination.
20 • ArchBang... (by uz64 on 2010-09-13 15:01:18 GMT from United States)
...watch it disappear in a couple months like all the other Arch-based distros have.
Seriously, why don't Arch-based distros ever survive?
21 • Distro suggestion (by Jesse on 2010-09-13 15:13:15 GMT from Canada)
RE: 12 UHU-Linux 2.2
Thank you for the suggestion. I will take a look at UHU-Linux. The review will not be ready in time for next week, but perhaps a few weeks down the road.
22 • 20 • ArchBang (by joji on 2010-09-13 15:13:55 GMT from Belgium)
"why don't Arch-based distros ever survive?"
What do you say about 'Archiso-live' (http://godane.wordpress.com/).
I has been here for quite a time! And it is rather good!!
23 • Mint Debian (by Sly on 2010-09-13 15:42:49 GMT from United States)
I tried out Mint- Debian this weekend. It booted really really fast. I did notice that a couple of the normal checks performed during the boot cycle were skipped, so that may be the reason.
All the aps that I use with the main edition were in the Mint/Debian repositories and loaded without a hitch. Everything worked without a problem, as with the main edition.
Conclusion: The Mint Team has done an impressive job!!
24 • Redstar & LMDE (by Anonymous on 2010-09-13 15:57:25 GMT from United States)
I don't think OSes that are supposed to provide freedom to their users can be helped any by the blatant hypocrisy of dictatorial regimes oppressing people and providing 'free' software. Software openness and freedom matters little in the face physical oppression from a very closed and insular government, and that government can do little but tarnish the image of everything it touches until it is reformed.
On a more positive note, Mint Debian edition sounds like a true winner. The reason I moved from Mint to PCLOS was a horribly borked series of attempts to upgrade from version 6 to 7. I may soon switch back if things go well and more editions roll out.
25 • RE #10 & #15 Mint Debian (by Anonymous on 2010-09-13 16:17:55 GMT from United States)
I agree with #15, rolling flux Mint would be great. It will be the perfect fix for a soon to be unsupported XP box with 256mb of memory.
26 • Ubuntu concern. (by John Dough on 2010-09-13 16:29:30 GMT from United States)
After reading Phronix comparison between previous versions with Maverick, it appears Ubuntu is going in the wrong direction...slower, and slower. Startling news to say the least.
I wonder if the same can be said of previous releaes of Mint against current Mint release.
Is this just Linux going downhill fast!
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_pentium4_old&num=1
27 • Linux Mint, Mandriva, Red Star, @14 sidux vs Aptosid (by Ron on 2010-09-13 16:52:04 GMT from United States)
(Linux Mint Debian Edition)
I use Debian Squeeze and would like to say quickly, Debian users. Linux Mint Debian Edition users. Mint may have a few different tools, and it is not the same as Debian. But still, be polite. We want more Linux users over all no matter what they use, not less. Great job Mint team.
(Mandriva)
When I was reading the Mandriva article flashes of Oracle popped into my head. Mandriva needs to redo their whole business model I think. Times have changes, I hope they do as well. Seems like when Mandrake merged with Connectiva that is when things slowly started to go downhill.
(Red Star Linux 2.0)
What would give anyone any reason to believe that North Korea would spy on its own people... Oh yeah, never mind. I think the reason why Distrowatch has only received 13 visits from North Korea in 8 years is probably the fact, except for politicians, everyone is starving and no one can afford a computer...
(@14 sidux vs apostid,)
I would like to know more about this. And why did they choose a name like Aptosid. What where they thinking.
Great DistroWatch Weekly, as usual.
28 • Edit for 27 (by Ron on 2010-09-13 16:56:00 GMT from United States)
I hit the submit button a little too fast at time.
In my comment, 27, it reads:
I use Debian Squeeze and would like to say quickly, Debian users. Linux Mint Debian Edition users.
It should read:
I use Debian Squeeze and would like to say quickly to Debian users at the forums, concerning when Linux Mint Debian Edition users visit.
29 • Tests and names (by Jesse on 2010-09-13 17:19:02 GMT from Canada)
The tests linked to in post 26 are interesting in that they seem to show some graphics tests are getting slower, but disk performance (if I'm reading that right) is getting better. I think instead of using three Ubuntu versions it would have been better if they had used two Ubuntu versions and two versions of another distro. It could have shown us if it was just the Ubuntu releases suffering from performance in certain areas, or if it is the FOSS stack in general.
>> I would like to know more about this. And why did they choose a name like Aptosid. What where they thinking?
We've covered bits of the sidux issue here over the past month. It shows up a few times in the news section. And you can get details from the sidux site. I think they went with the name Aptosid because, well, it's a distro which uses APT on Sid. A logical, if not particularly appealing name.
30 • A small Zenwalk review by Susan Linton (by Claus Futtrup on 2010-09-13 17:36:05 GMT from Denmark)
One for the list:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/spotlight-linux-zenwalk-linux-64-live?quicktabs_1=1
Regards,
Claus
31 • @27/28 (by Captain Obvious on 2010-09-13 17:39:15 GMT from United States)
The LMDE users shouldn't expect the coddling they may be used to on their own boards. If they act like many users of another "big" distro when they visit, they'll probably be told to RT*M, or simply be ignored. LMDE is not Debian, despite what many of it's users think. To put it simply, they need to visit their own forum for support first. If that fails, they need to ask their questions in an intelligent manner in the Debian Offtopic Board.
32 • Into Knoppix? Not forgetting (by Steve on 2010-09-13 17:40:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
...Kanotix
Had a some trouble over last few years but Kano's most recent release is solid, uses KDE 3.5.10 and works like a charm.
A good choice either as a live or install on older machines, for those who prefer KDE 3.
Steve
33 • MintDE and things (by davemc on 2010-09-13 17:47:43 GMT from United States)
I too was very excited about the Debian edition and gave it a shot this weekend and, not surprisingly at all given that testing is in deep freeze for the imminent release to stable, it ran great and had very few issues. I do think basing it on testing is a VERY grave mistake, possibly dooming its success from the start because of the nature of testing repo's, which MintDE fans will soon come to know once testing repo's open the flood gates again. Now, if they are basing it on testing for now and then moving it to stable after Debains release, then that would indeed be an excellent decision, and could be what they had in mind. A MintDE edition based on the soon to be Debian Stable would be a fantastic Distro in anyone's book, and I am sure it will top the Distrowatch charts in record time!
About the Arch variants, I think comment #20 is way off base. Archbang and Chakra will be much better distro choices than crunchbang and Kubuntu for what they do because Arch is the way to go when your looking for a super lean, mean, efficient system that is rock stable while being screaming edge at the same time. The key to these will be how much they have deviated from the core Arch framework, particularly at install time, because that is when you make the custom tweaks to tailor the system specifically to your hardware and personal preferences. If they went the way of the "everything under the kitchen sink approach" like Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse, etc.. then you might be right.
About Oracles blasphemous lawsuit, what they did was inexcusable from an Open Source, FOSS perspective, and the FSF has spoken out on it quite clearly, as has PJ's Groklaw. Any FOSS Developer who chooses to develop on questionably patented code is clearly doing wrong (MONO, OpenJDK/Java, etc.) and could get sued for their efforts and the code confiscated. Develop on these languages at your own peril!.. You would make better use of your Development efforts on fully free and open source languages.
About Sidux and Mandriva.. Sad indeed. Mandriva looks like its going the way of the dodo bird, but Mandriva the Distro will survive in some form or another. Sidux being strong armed into changing its name into what??.. Aptonsid?.. What an aweful throat wrenching name to live under. Best regards to the Sidux team though. I hope that is the last of the drama queen for them.
34 • re.30 (by Slogger on 2010-09-13 17:50:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
Normally, I take the greatest cognisance of Susan's recommendations. However, there is a proverbial fly in this proverbial ointment. The Zenwalk developers and their cohorts on their Forum are just about the most unpleasant group of individuals I have ever encountered - and that's a lot of difficult individuals! For that reason, I'm out.
35 • About Mandriva (by Anonymous on 2010-09-13 18:14:48 GMT from Italy)
I have been advertising, in my signature, both in Italian and English forums, in favour of Mandriva. This is the English version:
"Don't let Mandriva die. Support it in any way you can."
However personally I use Debian. Besides I have stopped visiting their forum.
After Adam Williamson left, the forum was run by an admin with nasty dictatorial attitudes. I don't know if he is still there, but being myself a global mod of a very democratically run forum, that is too much for me to take.
36 • #22 (by Stones @ Glass Houses on 2010-09-13 18:33:08 GMT from Netherlands)
Maybe he isn't familiar with Archiso-live because DW has more censorship and repression than N. Korea (as far as the analogy can be applied to a goofy website anyway). It isn't listed here (even though it has been around for several years) because the website doesn't suit Ladislav's fancy. That would be a resounding endorsement if it were my distro and I would never change my website.
Just a quick question to Jesse which I will perhaps leave to others to ponder since this post probably won't stay here too long. What does "Staring through the keyhole at KNOPPIX" mean? I don't get it. Is this some kind of a metaphor? Do you have a keyhole that you are staring through? What are you staring at? Is there a CD in the other room lying on the floor? Maybe KNOPPIX is running on a computer in the other room while you peek, no sorry, STARE at it? Perhaps you were just trying to spice up your writing with a "catchy" title? I don't get it though. The review itself was nicely done and while not really deep, it covered enough of the bases for someone to get a pretty good idea if they would want to download it or not. Really you would have been better off with a title like, A Short Review of KNOPPIX.
37 • North korea? (by whocares on 2010-09-13 18:43:27 GMT from Finland)
for Pinko who wrote Do we have an unlikely Linux-using ally in North Korea or is this just another evil plot of the authoritarian government to spy on its citizens as some have claimed?
Considering the majority of North Korean citizens can barely afford to live, let alone purchase a computer, this question is silly. The real question should have been "Why do governments that claim to have their citizens needs at heart always waste time and money with such frivolous things when its citizens live in such extreme poverty?"
What country or state are forcing to them be poor. Where were you from?
Actually i dont wanna see any politics overhere
38 • sidux (by Glenn Condre on 2010-09-13 18:55:45 GMT from United States)
I used to like sidux. Its a really good distribution. The people behind it however, not so much. They are rude, cynical, and unpleasant to deal with.
If it were just ONE time that I were referring to, that would be one thing. But multiple times? Shows a pattern.
I'll stick with Mint....I like the idea of a rolling release Debian based distro, with all the codecs and FRIENDLY users & devs alike.
39 • @#27 (by Glenn Condrey on 2010-09-13 19:01:23 GMT from United States)
Aptosid can be broken down apt-to-sid (as in Debian Sid which is what Aptosid is based on...and uses apt-get yada yada yada)
40 • Keyhole (by Jesse on 2010-09-13 19:08:27 GMT from Canada)
>> "Staring through the keyhole at KNOPPIX" mean? I don't get it. Is this some kind of a metaphor?
Maybe the concept doesn't translate well beyond English. To stare through the keyhole at something usually indicates you're watching someone (or something) without being observed in return. It also suggests that you are seeing one thing without being able to observe the whole picture. It's a concept with comes up in older stories sometimes.
I felt a short review of Knoppix without any Q&A with the developer was a bit like observing something through a keyhole. It doesn't give the whole picture, just a significant piece.
41 • aptosid (by anticapitalista on 2010-09-13 19:21:17 GMT from Greece)
My theory is that aptosid is also derived from Greek απ'το sid which means '(coming) from sid'
42 • sidux's new name (by RollMeAway on 2010-09-13 19:26:13 GMT from United States)
Be thankful we can pronounce and spell the new name.
Unlike any of their "Release" names.
Those I cannot pronounce, or even type.
43 • Staring through the keyhole (by Pervert on 2010-09-13 19:33:59 GMT from United States)
I used to stare through the keyhole at my cousin when I stayed the night at her house. She was 17 years old, blond, blue eyes and big *****. Sorry, that was really inappropiate and rude.
44 • Mint != Debian; (by Jamie on 2010-09-13 19:50:42 GMT from United States)
I am *so* pleased that the Mint team is moving to Squeeze. I'm not a mint user myself, but the rolling release idea (which reminds me of my days on Arch) is fantastic. I think *that* should be the selling point. Rolling Release Mint. Not Debian Mint.
Besides the fact that Debian folk on forums and IRC channels are probably the harshest around, we seem to have forgotten, momentarily, that UBUNTU was/is based on Debian! Taking a middle link out of the chain brings a distro closer to it's root (no pun intended) and that's always a good thing, to keep closer to upstream changes. I just hope that the Mint users stay with Mint users (or Ubuntu, if it is still applicable). Not for the sake of Debian users (I do, personally, use Debian on my main box and CrunchBang [Debian derivative] on my laptop), but rather for their own sake. I use Debian, and I can't stand the loudmouth "RT*M" people that troll to try and feel superior.
On another note, I can't help but notice the similarity between ArchBang and CrunchBang#! (the custom conky on openbox with hotkeys for app launching...)
#! (once it switched to debian base) has treated me quite well on my laptop, and I can only assume that Arch will do the same thing, but with rolling release (that's not to say that I'll ditch #! for ArchBang).
I think that there are Arch distros that have been around for more than a minute, but the problem people see is that they don't make it into the top 10 here on DW. That doesn't mean they don't survive - Arch is targeting a very specific user group, so I wouldn't expect it to have the most users (even though Arch and Gentoo are up there on the list...)
As for the N.Korea issue, Debain users say st*u and google it. We don't want this junk here. (Great find on RedStar though! Made me actually laugh out loud - keep up the great work Ladislav!)
45 • @26: Old ATI Radeons (by cba on 2010-09-13 20:06:51 GMT from United States)
I use a ATI Radeon 7500 card (RV200; 64MB RAM; AGP slot) and tested a few distributions with it on a PIV 1,6GHz computer with 1GB RAM with regard to 3D support.
Here is the result:
1. OpenSuse 11.3: No 3D support as long as KMS is activated.
2. OpenSuse 11.2: No 3D Support for these cards. You have to install the old mesa lib from OpenSuse 11.1 in order to get 3D support (which is worse than in OpenSuse 11.0)
3. OpenSuse 11.0, 11.1: Full 3D support.
4. Suse 9.0: Full 3D support.
5. Ubuntu 10.04: 3D works as a result of an early bug report, but in Ubuntu 8.04 and 9.04 the 3D support for these cards is a lot better than in Ubuntu 10.04.
6. Ubuntu 9.10: No 3D support. If you install the mesa libs from Jaunty, 3D works again.
7. Ubuntu 8.04, 9.04: Full 3D support.
8. Fedora 13: 3D support works with KMS. It is even possible to play Torcs in 24bit. In older Linux releases this was only possible with 16bit, 24 bit mode was unusable with these cards.
9. CentOS 5: Full 3D support.
10. Debian Squeeze Main: No 3D support. Debian removed the proprietary kernel firmware which is needed for 3D support (you have to look for it in non-free).
11. Debian Lenny Main: Full 3D support.
12. Debian Etch Main: Full 3D support.
So, there is hope (with respect to Fedora 13 and its bleeding-edge software). Do not throw away your old Radeon card as long as its fan does not sound like a chainsaw. :-)
46 • RE: #38 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-13 20:13:19 GMT from Italy)
That is a story that started many years ago, when Kano decided that Kanotix would be based on Debian Stable, rather than on Sid.
That was a time of hell in the kanotix forum. Everybody who dared to side with Kano was brutally attacked (verbally, of course).
In fact I am surprised that Sidux lasted that long and that is even going to survive, under another name.
47 • Debian and its derivatives (by Anonymous on 2010-09-13 20:24:54 GMT from Italy)
While I am glad that Debian is attracting derivatives again, after a deluge of Ubuntu ones (never used by me), Debian Proper is so good nowadays that, if you have already experience with it, I don't see why you should replace it with one of its derivatives.
48 • Debian Testing is NOT rolling release! (by snp on 2010-09-13 20:46:17 GMT from United States)
I don't see how anyone who's used a true rolling release distro like Arch can call Debian Testing "rolling release." When I think "rolling release" I do not think "kernel frozen at 2.6.32 for almost a year."
Mint will have to add a lot of packages to their repository (similar to MEPIS) if they want to give their users a true rolling experience.
49 • Re: 17 "soviet computing" (by jake on 2010-09-13 20:48:38 GMT from United States)
Looking up "kremvax" would be a good start ;-)
More seriously, see:
http://www.computer-museum.ru/english/index.php
which leads to:
http://www.computer-museum.ru/english/0.htm
I normally never recommend Wikipedia for anything, but they can be a good place to find pointers for this kind of information. For example, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_hardware_in_Soviet_Bloc_countries
50 • Mandrivas future (by carl on 2010-09-13 21:24:29 GMT from Germany)
Uh uh... Mandriva is still in trouble. Bad news, as it is one of the best distros that exist and it paved the way for the gnu/linux sucess in the home-pc, long before Ubuntu was there (back in the good ol' Mandrake days).
It would be a real loss if the distro dies. Maybe it's time for some good hackers to make a fork and create a community driven Mandriva-Version (that way, they could btw get rid of their rather uncool distro-name), much like Debian or Fedora.
The MCC and urpmi are way too good to get lost in a Nirvana.
*cross fingers*
signed: An old Debian user.
51 • Active Distributions (by noobish on 2010-09-13 22:10:40 GMT from United States)
What determines if a distribution is active or not? For example I know that the original official gOS forums have been abandoned for well over a year now. The last release, 3.1 "Gadgets", was based on Ubuntu Hardy, and there is no response about a new release.
52 • aptosid naming convention (by Verndog on 2010-09-13 22:33:23 GMT from United States)
From their manual:
aptosid is made up of 2 words, Firstly "apto" which is a Latin word which means to fit, adapt, adjust, make ready, or fit. The second word is "sid" and is the codename of Debian's unstable branch.
53 • Mint Debian Edition (by dragonmouth on 2010-09-13 23:03:35 GMT from United States)
In spite of Jim Lynch's enthusiasm for Mint DE, all is not well with it. It seems that the packages are unsigned. There is keyring authentication available in the Debian but it must be specifically added to any repositories one is using. The Mint version of Software Manager is another problem. When asked to remove a package, it does not warn the user whether any dependencies exist. Innocuous programs like "cowsay" and "fortune" have system programs as dependencies. Software Manger will happily remove "cowsay" and/or "fortune" along with the system programs making the system unbootable. For details please check out the discussions following Jim Lynch's reviews of Linux Mint Debian Edition and Linux Mint 9 (Isadora).
54 • Linux Mint - Debian Install on two hard drives (by trotter1985 on 2010-09-13 23:22:50 GMT from United States)
The new Linux Mint - Debian is apparently unable
to handle an installation setup where the root / is
on one disk and /home is on another. Hard to believe
that such a simple option is not handled seamlessly. Has
this problem been spotted previously and I just missed
it?
55 • @ 5 - Minimum Requirements (by Andrew on 2010-09-13 23:39:38 GMT from Australia)
I've got a classic Compaq Amarda Pentium (non-MMX) 120Mhz laptop, 16MB RAM, no USB and no CD, only FDD, HDD and 10/100 NIC in the PCMCIA slot. Installing Linux would involve preparing the HDD on another laptop and swapping it back over.
This laptop works 100%, the battery still outlasts an iPhone battery but unfortunately there isn't modern distro that can run on it.
Another Compaq (not a Compaq fanboi btw, only have two and these happen to be my oldest laptops in my collection) is a PIII 700Mhz with 192MB RAM - this at least can run some lean distros so I'd really like distrowatch to include published minimum specs for each of the release.
Just under 'Processor Architecture' you could include 'Minimum Specifications' that could include memory, hard drive size, resolution size etc.
56 • Re 11 (by Woody Ochs on 2010-09-14 00:58:28 GMT from United States)
Consider their recent distro names: "Hupnos" is sweet, but "Momos" or "Moros"? "Keros" sounds a little unsettling too, but I trust that it too will run beautifully on my old PIII "Katmai".
57 • Ref#55 + Compaq Amarda Pentium (by Verndog on 2010-09-14 02:12:27 GMT from United States)
I have a couple of those laptops lying around. I had installed PCLinuxOS, TinyME, Arch, and another or two. PCLinuxOS seemed to run the best, but TinyME was the fastest. This was a few years back.
Maybe AntiX would work well.
58 • Debian testing (by Persons Unknown on 2010-09-14 02:26:46 GMT from Malaysia)
Anybody want using "rolling release" Debian testing base distro can always using Parsix (Gnome) or Epidemic (KDE). However that distro never claim "rolling release" unlike LMDE.
59 • DWW (by Landor on 2010-09-14 02:56:43 GMT from Canada)
It's a shame you don't subscribe to Linux Magazine, I have KNOPPIX 6.3, which was an exclusive release. It's a good article about a great distribution, built buy a decent developer/man in my opinion.
I'm looking forward to the OpenBSD release. I'll give it a shot on my netbook when it's out. I know wireless works, or at least I know they have an Atheros driver for wireless N.
I've also been looking at Kongoni's full release, as well as AUSTRUMI from last week's article. Lately I've usually ended up deleting an ISO after looking at the distribution, these two I decided hold onto for a bit so I can dig a little deeper. They've definitely caught my interest.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
60 • North Korea's official distro (by Simon on 2010-09-14 04:04:07 GMT from New Zealand)
re "Do we have an unlikely Linux-using ally in North Korea or is this just another evil plot of the authoritarian government to spy on its citizens as some have claimed?":
I can't see many developers attempting to prosecute North Korean government officials for GPL violations, so I'd say the "Linux-using ally" possibility is pretty remote. If the source code were made available as per GPL requirements then not only would the "plot...to spy on its citizens" be something of a non-issue (since an open source system will always be safer and more difficult to exploit for spying than for example Microsoft's malware/OS) but we might even see some North Korean bugfixes or whatever contributing to other projects.
However, my guess would be that the North Korean government will do whatever it wants with its distro regardless of free software licenses, in which case it will be just as much a potential tool for spying and control as MSware or any other closed source malware. No worse, but no better either.
61 • #20: Distro survival (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-14 04:21:15 GMT from United States)
@uz64: I don't think Arch based distros are more or less likely to survive than any other new distros. All hobbyist distros and small projects are at risk of disappearing quickly if the person who started them no longer has the time to develop them or loses interest. Yes, some small projects and solo projects which are very good develop user communities and, perhaps more importantly, developer communities. However, for every Slackware or Linux Mint there are probably dozens that don't make it.
Heck, even developing a good reputation and starting to build a user community doesn't guarantee survival. Look at what has happened with Wolvix or Damn Small Linux, for example. Another piece of the puzzle is finding a way to monetize a distro, at least sufficiently to allow the primary developer(s) to concentrate on that distro without having to worry about holding down another job to pay the bills.
No matter how you slice it, it is never easy to get a distro to the point where it is both well respected and self-sustaining. Those who have managed it are exceptional individuals. A little luck probably doesn't hurt either.
62 • wallpaper (by eleni on 2010-09-14 06:53:29 GMT from Italy)
never see so ugly wallpaper before!
(aptosid)
63 • in a general comments (by lott11 on 2010-09-14 07:17:52 GMT from Colombia)
I thank you for your review it simple and down to earth.
And for people who have to complaint for every little detail, it is now the time for all the complaints to stop.
Come on people ! It is time to stop all of the small minded thoughts.
Ideas are a great thing.
small ideas is what makes Linux all a bought.
Small changes make a great O.S., and makes it interesting and all more rounded O.S.
That is why we have more choices then other O.S.
Doesn't it remind you of evolution., a sensible change, is healthy involvement in live.
That is why we can not wait for new version to come out every time.
So it call *#@%!!! , so what is in a name it was Mandrake now it is Mandriva,
So what is call Aptosid, so how long is it going to be call that.
Who cares, all that matters is how it works.
That is all that really matters is it not!!
and on borough Red Star Linux, this all a P.R. Game, that's all.
Most countries have a Linux development, And so few do not.
Most are FOSS so it means it is free and open to the public, well isn't that a kick in the pants.
Open, Free, Public., in a country that cares for none of the above.
Just say what freedom!! is that they are speaking a bought, or not speaking a bought.
It is out dated, and very little to speak of freedom.
And Linux Mint Debian
It is a great thing, it back to where the original code came from.
So it means that Debian is going to get a new revamp to new and better things.
Sheers to that.
See evolution at it's best, a new view a new thought., a new way to see life in code.
And this is just the beginning, this is only Alfa can't wait for Beta.
64 • Knoppix? ... well ... (by meanpt on 2010-09-14 09:11:26 GMT from Portugal)
... the second linux distro I tried in life was Knoppix's CD edition. Not being an English speaking user, tried to change the keyboard to what I get with the variants latin 1 or 9, but found that the keyboard available through the cheat codes couldn't match those. Finally I went for the heavier DVD edition which allowed me to configure the keyboard correctly and liked it.
65 • nvidia9600 + 2.6.32 and newer (by alexis on 2010-09-14 10:14:17 GMT from Ukraine)
Greeting to all!
Have anybody experienced any problems with the newer distros at nv9600? Somehow (I can't figure out why) I can't have them running I tried Debian Squeeze, Knoppix, Mint 9, MDK 2010.1. After I select it at the bootloader menu, and it starts booting, later on the monitor drops off into a power save mode, and I have got black screen, and that's all. Reset is the only way to reboot the computer. Debian Lenny works perfectly (both with some initial driver, and then, with custom-built driver). Can anybody explain that? Thanx in advance?
66 • Gathering Questions (by Jesse on 2010-09-14 10:46:13 GMT from Canada)
The other week we ran a Q&A with questions from readers for Dru Lavigne from the PC-BSD project. I would like to do the same again with a member of the Debian team leading into their next Stable release. If you have a question for the Debian developers, please e-mail it to me at jessefrgsmith@yahoo.ca.
67 • @50: MCC lost forever (by Lee on 2010-09-14 11:05:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
I agree that the state of affairs at Mandriva is rather sad and it would be a loss to the community. It was the first distro I used full-time, even if their heyday as Mandrake was before my time but the MCC would live on in PCLinuxOS, which was originally a Mandriva fork before splitting for good with 2010, but still includes MCC for configuration things. It doesn't use urpmi/drakrpm though, it uses apt for RPM/synaptic instead.
PCLinuxOS a very good distro too, it's faster than Mandriva was in my experience and has a release cycle that doesn't involve having to reinstall it every 6 months. New versions where you have to reinstall seem to be released now and again, but the cycle of release is closer to Windows release cycle than those used by Ubuntu-type distros. I would recommend it to anyone who likes Mandriva, but has lost faith in the hope of the distro surviving.
68 • Title Typo (by Lee on 2010-09-14 11:10:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
Oops. The title was meant to say "MCC not lost forever", not "MCC lost forever"
69 • On Java... (by DigitalVampire on 2010-09-14 11:23:07 GMT from United States)
"My point being that any of the Java pieces can be swapped out and replaced with something else."
Sounds great, but why stop with just the pieces? Let's go ahead and swap out the entire Java system (language, compiler, vm, etc.) with something that isn't slow and inflexible. Something like C/C++. You know, a big boy language.
70 • Rolling releases (by mechanic on 2010-09-14 12:06:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
Rolling releases suck! Would you buy a car which had a rolling release product strategy? No! Rolling releases are just an excuse for no integration testing, no verification, no configuration control - all a recipe for QA disaster. It's bad enough that Ununtu's favourite reason to mark a bug as 'solved' is to say it will be fixed in the next release. Bug fixing and tracking will be next to impossible with rolling releases.
71 • Re: 70 (by jake on 2010-09-14 13:04:58 GMT from United States)
Oh, I dunno ... I'd be really, really happy to be given the opportunity to drive Ashley Force Hood's car for a season ...
That said, I'm pretty conservative in my OS ... I run Slackware on my desktops, and BSD on the servers. Works for me, anyway.
72 • Re: #70 Rolling release (by silent on 2010-09-14 13:14:46 GMT from France)
Well, PCLinux OS, Sabayon, Archlinux and Gentoo are completely rolling release distros, three of them are in the TOP 10 at the moment. Most other distros have regular updates to each release and that can also cause "disaster". From a purely empirical point of view, my experience is that rolling releases are stable and comfortable. On the other hand a distribution upgrade is also quite simple, there is no need for a complete reinstall, but troubleshooting can be difficult as lots of new packages are installed at the same time. Surely, QA and integration testing is just not something I want on my home system, neither would I recommend a rolling release model for global companies. Nevertheless, some commercial systems with QA and integration testing do release updates and unfortunately very, very often new versions as well, instead of just writing some proper piece of code that could be used at least for a couple of decades ;)
73 • Minty Debian (by Sam on 2010-09-14 15:06:43 GMT from United States)
Mint, Debian Edition. Best thing since sliced bread?
Red Star Linux: Rather empty application list, eh?
74 • Red Star Linux (by Michael Kornblum on 2010-09-14 15:07:34 GMT from Estonia)
Actually Red Star is a plant by Microsoft (hence the silver XP theme) created by Steve Ballmer in an attempt to prove that Linux is indeed communist. Just kidding.
75 • re: rolling releases suck! (by snp on 2010-09-14 16:11:28 GMT from United States)
Mechanic, I think it is safe to say there are both good and bad rolling releases, just as there are good and bad stable releases. This is just one of many important factors that must be weighed when choosing a distro.
I would not use Arch (or simliar) in a large corporate deployment, but for certain types of individual Linux enthusiast, it most certainly does not "suck."
A good rolling release can in fact be more stable than a buggy "stable" release like Ubuntu.
76 • Re: #70 (by well on 2010-09-14 16:53:16 GMT from Serbia)
Rolling release distro is quite stable for personal use.I am using one for a while,and I had zero problems with it.
77 • Rolling release? (by davemc on 2010-09-14 17:23:25 GMT from United States)
#72 - Last I checked Sabayon is not a rolling release Distro. Its parent Gentoo is, and if all you do is use the Sabayon overlay and continuously upgrade that, then in that sense it would kind of be, but it would be more of a Gentoo install with a Sabayon overlay, not the same thing. Each new Sabayon release should have a new heavily modified overlay (or series of them), so you cant just continue to use the old one, you have to upgrade at release.
For MintDE I suppose if they want to push this "rolling release" notion by staying on testing I still think its a mistake as far as usability is concerned due to the inherent unstable nature of testing repo's. They can still go that route by basing on stable and providing an option to go to whatever repo they want - stable, testing, unstable - with a user friendly GUI to enable them loaded with many warnings in blood red bold lettering. This would be more in line with the Mint I know. Provide a super user friendly stable environment while providing user friendly options to the user to help enable him/her to do what they want.
78 • cardinal sin (by Leroy on 2010-09-14 17:37:49 GMT from Serbia)
North Koreans have every right to develop their own version of Linux, kudos to them, as we know deploying Linux is an effective way to avoid both piracy and unnecessary expenses. There are a number of bankrupt countries around the world right now that are cutting people's salaries and raising retirement age, at the same time spending insanely from their budgets on MS products. That's not good and that should be criticized.
Also, just as we don't bring up foreclosures, unemployment or poverty figures in the U.S. when there's, for example, a new Fedora, or other U.S.-based distro release, I strongly believe that no politics other than the Linux world politics should be allowed to contaminate the debate here.
But I guess, for the clicks!, if there's no Ubuntu "news", the weekly features North Korea...
79 • kongony (by forlin on 2010-09-14 22:29:53 GMT from Portugal)
Actually, I've been too very interested at this project. Remarkable, it's a one man work. And he has been developing it at his free time. For those who would like to know a beat more about the project, go to the DW's Kongoni page and look at the last review. In there you'll find an interview with its actual owner.
80 • Oracle vs. Google (by Hartseer on 2010-09-14 23:26:07 GMT from Romania)
thanks a lot for claryfying that subject.. it was a very easy to follow explanation.. ;-)
81 • aptodumb (by ianam on 2010-09-14 23:56:23 GMT from United States)
Sidux was a name that violated fundamental design principles, much like Microsoft's botched version of Hungarian notation, freezing within it variable information. What are they going to do when Squeeze unstable comes along, make another name change to aptosqueeze? And on top of that, the name is ungainly and makes no semantic sense. If these people had good judgment, they would have called it something like dbnex (DeBiaN EXperimental -- duh). That lack of judgment will be the death of their project.
82 • @81- see bottom quote (by huh? on 2010-09-14 23:59:40 GMT from United States)
Debian "Unstable" is always called Sid...
"Squeeze Unstable" HUH?
Here's your sign.
83 • aptosid, Mint Debian, rolling releases (by sid user on 2010-09-15 00:19:01 GMT from United States)
Regarding the name change of sidux, I think comment #41 is right, and aptosid also is a play on apt, which the aptosid devs insist on for sid package management.
@14 (pedro), apparently the foundation that holds the trademark on sidux and the development team have been drifting apart, about what was never openly said on the sidux forums (to avoid unnecessary interjection by non-involved parties, I'm sure) other than a difference in goals, a fight over who owns what regarding sidux, and eventual communication breakdown . The devs decided to break away from the foundation but the foundation refused to relinquish the trademark, hence the new name. Nothing seems to have changed for the worse development wise, and sidux users can upgrade to aptosid by changing one line in sources.list. As for the perceived ugliness of the name, team member slam posted this on the old forum...
"Well, aptosid does not only sound like a drug, it is one. It frees us from nasty bugs and mosquitoes:-)"
@44 (Jamie), some minor points... Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE) is a spinoff project. Mint is not "moving towards Debian", the main Mint development path will still be based on Ubuntu. Also, you are right that ArchBang took its name and setup (Openbox/tint2/Conky) from CrunchBang (with corenominal's permission). CrunchBang IS moving to Debian squeeze with its upcoming Statler release as was reported here at DW. There are forum topics on LMDE, ArchBang and Statler at the CrunchBang forums.
re: a Debian/KDE based rolling release, am I wrong in stating that any distro using either squeeze or sid repositories is by nature a rolling release that can be updated via apt-get dist-upgrade? If so, than (of the top of my head) PureOS fits the bill.
84 • RE: #81, 82 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-15 03:58:15 GMT from Italy)
User ianam knows next to nothing about Debian release cycle.
At any given time there are 3 Debian branches: Stable, Testing, Unstable.
The names of Stable and Testing change after every release. Currently they are Lenny (Stable) and Squeeze (Testing).
The denomination of Unstable never changes, it is always "Sid"
Those names are borrowed from the Toy Story movies.
There has never been, and presumably never will be a distro based on Debian Experimental, simply because Experimental is not a "proper branch"
From http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Debian
"The Experimental branch is not actually a full (self-contained) development branch -- it is meant to be a temporary staging area for highly experimental software. Dependencies missing are most likely found in Unstable (Sid). Debian warns that these packages are likely unstable or buggy and are to be used at your own risk. If you decide to use packages from Experimental, you are encouraged to contact the package maintainers directly in case of problems."
See also: http://www.debian.org/releases/
85 • Re: #77 Sabayon (by silent on 2010-09-15 10:30:30 GMT from France)
Ok, so Sabayon is completely rolling release if one uses the testing branch. If one uses any other branch then it is still rolling with respect to the minor snapshots (say 5.1, 5.2, 5.3), but one has to upgrade ("hop") between branches (say from 4 to 5). http://wiki.sabayon.org/index.php?title=En:Entropy
86 • Mint DE, aptosid (by Michael Raugh on 2010-09-15 13:32:55 GMT from United States)
Having been happily running sidux on my "Distro Odyssey" machine for quite a while now, I went ahead and made the repo change/update to switch over to aptosid. Now my Flash plugin, Acrobat reader, and Password Gorilla (an application that depends on Tk) have all broken as a result of dependencies no longer satisfied by the updated system. Oops!
Things are broken enough that I actually looked at Mint DE as a possible next distro to try -- until I read the list of known issues on the website. Half a dozen utilities admittedly not updated for that version, GNOME only, 32-bit only ... reads like a mess to me. No thanks.
Hmmm ... I haven't looked seriously at Fedora in a while ...
-MR
87 • RE: #86 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-15 14:17:21 GMT from Italy)
Michael
Please consider Debian Proper.
I am using Testing, very stable. But I suppose Sid is very stable too at the moment, as Squeeze is frozen.
88 • sidux to sid (by RollMeAway on 2010-09-15 16:02:56 GMT from United States)
I have two installations of sidux, which now become sid.
I simply removed the sidux repos and only use debian sid.
Also switch the kernel back to debian. I have no need for a new kernel each week/day.
Other sidux pkgs will be removed as they present problems. Can't think of any specific
sidux package that I do use. All the artwork has been changed already.
My several negative experiences with the forums led me to believe I don't need anything
they have to offer. Last experience, I ask for the option to NOT install grub2 on the next release.
I was told go away, if you're so smart edit the script yourself. It is our way or hit the highway. Guess I just did.
89 • LMDE (by #24 on 2010-09-15 16:10:29 GMT from United States)
@ 86 Mint Debian is still an early release of a concept that the Mint team wants to support further in the future. These things take time, I think LMDE is worth keeping an eye on.
@77 I've been thinking we need a rolling distro that does just what you describe for a while now. I think picking your upgrade speed is a feature that all rolling distros should consider.
As for the rolling release haters in general, well just because Fedora rawhide is messy doesn't mean that all rolling systems are inherently dangerous. I've had some major issues with GUI and command line attempts to upgrade Mint, and the had every reinstall attempt fail utterly. That's why I moved to rolling release, as I said in my first post. I now have an aversion to these 'reinstall every 6 months' type distributions. I don't want the outdated software that comes on a LTS either. I've had a few glitches with PCLOS, but nothing comparable to the upgrade issues I had with Mint. I think that the beauty of open source is that we can all chose our preferred release method when we chose our distro. Please don't knock it unless you've tried it.
90 • #89: The problem with ALL rolling release distros (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-15 16:42:43 GMT from United States)
I, for one, will never use a "rolling release" distro. I won't even consider it.
Troubleshooting and problem solving is hard enough when you have a known starting point to work from. The problem with a rolling release system is that you take what should be a constant: the base release code, and turn it into a variable. Thanks, but no thanks. That is far too problematic a concept for me. I don't want to live on the bleeding edge in any case.
"Reinstall every 6 months" is a type of distribution I am not familiar with. Every major distro and most smaller ones allow for upgrading in place.
I also have an aversion to the six month release cycle which I find to be way too short for good quality control. Release things when they are ready, not before.
"Outdated software" is only really outdated when it no longer does the job for you. I don't want upgrades for the sake of upgrades which add no value for me and which may add bugs that didn't exist in the previous version. This is why I use very conservative distributions like Slackware or Red Hat and their derivatives.
"Please don't knock it unless you've tried it." Why not? If the basic principles that provide for stability and reliability are abandoned why should I try it at all? Thanks but no thanks. My computers are not toys. They are tools that do real work. I earn my living from them. I'll leave the cutting edge experimentation to the hobbyists, thankyouverymuch.
91 • RE:89, LTS Releases Are Not Dated Unless You Desire It. (by Eddie on 2010-09-15 17:00:11 GMT from United States)
A lot of people have the impression that a LTS release of a distro will have outdated applications always. It is only that way if the user of that distro wants it to be. That is where good repository management comes into play. That's how I do it and I have no outdated applications. Tried rolling releases and always had problems, also I use to reinstall every 6 or 8 months but didn't really like that. Went the upgrade path and most things went good but still didn't like it. The LTS works well for me. Once I get things set up the way I like them then I always have a fairly up to date system that I can use for several years.
92 • sidux -> aptosid (by zygmunt on 2010-09-15 20:26:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
Had sidux running for a number of years on a ASUS K8V-MX with VIA K8M800/VT8237R chipset. The sidux -> aptosid conversion went slowly but after several apt-get attempts was eventually OK...... apart from losing the X server......recovered by changing the openchrome to vesa in xorg.conf, Anyone managed to get openchrome to work with kernel 2.6.35... and current Xorg? Vesa is a tad minimal and slow but at least works. Never have liked the rolling distro concept because of breakages after updates. I therefore fear for the Mint DebIan edition being based on sid.
93 • RE: #88 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-15 20:27:07 GMT from Italy)
Well done! I couldn't agree more. What you did and said is great.
For once a Linux user who knows what he wants.
In the past there were many more such users, but the (failed, IMO) attempt to bring Linux to every clueless user damaged badly our community.
94 • Rolling releases (by Anon on 2010-09-15 21:19:43 GMT from Norway)
DW is for distro hoppers, and distro hoppers are hobbyists, so what are LTS aficionados doing here in the first place? Okay, okay, DW is not only for distro hoppers, but also for people with an interest in what's going in the Linux world.
A rolling distro, if its quality is on par with that of Arch Linux, is perfect on a home desktop of someone interested in Linux. You get the latest and greatest and it never breaks. Or it never breaks in a serious way. If it still does, you can copy back the image(s) you've made of the working system and be back to business in a few minutes. No sweat. Linux is a fabulous OS.
I've now been running Arch Linux for 35 months without any serious trouble - i.e. issues that can't be fixed with a quick trip to the users fora. If this sounds like too much trouble, one is not much interested in Linux and certainly no Linux professional.
95 • Good question (by Jesse on 2010-09-15 22:46:53 GMT from Canada)
>> "DW is for distro hoppers, and distro hoppers are hobbyists, so what are LTS aficionados doing here in the first place?"
Writing articles.
Actually, in all seriousness, I agree that a rolling release is a good way for someone at home who wants to stay fresh and keep up with new stuff coming down the pipe. When I first started playing with Linux in a serious way, a rolling release would have been useful. (I was running RedHat/Fedora at the time.) However, the more I use my computer for work and less for experimenting, the more I drift toward conservative releases.
96 • 64 bit Flash is back... (by Kevin C. on 2010-09-15 23:49:02 GMT from United States)
Multi platform:
http://labs.adobe.com/downloads/flashplayer10.html
97 • Security/Update Support (by Landor on 2010-09-16 00:11:20 GMT from Canada)
I ran Gentoo for some time on my one system and have been tinkering with it again (though I've become sidetracked with some interests regarding it, so haven't fully finished). That said, I think the rolling release model is only for those interested in such a system. Also, I guess, there's nothing to say that you have to follow the rolling release schedule for any of system that has it, as long as you're happy with your initial install and are willing to take the security risks that are bound to happen by not updating.
I personally think that it would be nice for all of the major distributions to provide eighteen months support for their releases. That gives you the benefit of skipping the next two releases if you so choose, while keeping your system secure, and error free. One distribution that I would be happy if they went to eighteen months is Fedora. I know it negates a lot of the actual basis for the distribution, but it would be very nice to just have a Fedora install for more than their basically a year of support. I've had Fedora 12 on the netbook and I've been quite happy with it. It's a shame that as soon as Fedora 14 is released I pretty well have to switch to it.
I don't actually talk about my main system much, but I have Ubuntu 9.10 installed and again have been happy with it, for the most part, and it's nice that I still have until next year to leave it there, support wise.
If Fedora went eighteen months I would most likely switch the main system on the desktop to it. I have been looking at long term support releases as well, and have stated as much here. Maybe when RHEL 6 is released and it's picked up by either CentOS or Scientific. I just didn't find the latest release to my needs. The best thing about running Fedora, and for its whole support life, is the updates. It's not uncommon to see a new kernel version, or new versions of applications, when they see fit to.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
98 • Linux Mint Debian and Unauthenticated Packages? (by Dave on 2010-09-16 01:49:28 GMT from Canada)
I've read a few comments elsewhere that Linux Mint Debian Edition requires unauthenticated packages to be installed (or might even do so by default?).
I'm no master of APT security, but this sounds "bad" to me. The one forum I find about it in the Linux Mint forums has a generally dismissive tone:
http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32155
Does Ubuntu similarly allow unauthenticated? I'm pretty sure I've never allowed this when I've run Debian (Lenny/Squeeze), and I never heard of this while I was using Ubuntu.
Thoughts, Distrowatch denizens?
99 • Linux mint debian (by Josh on 2010-09-16 01:51:52 GMT from United States)
Good work so far on LMDE. I like it so far. There are a few quirks in the installer, but its easy enough. One thing I would like to questions, has anyone gotten better than 55kB/s from the update manager? So far, I haven't topped that. On Ubuntu 10.04 (my main OS) and other distros, i get around 180 - 200kB/s. Is it just the default repos?
100 • @98 (by Josh on 2010-09-16 01:55:02 GMT from United States)
On ubuntu, I haven't noticed that any messages about unauthenticated packages. I may have missed it though. But, I am seeing it in LMDE even for their chosen updates. I think its been that way though, but I'm not sure (last mint install was a year ago).
101 • LMDE - is it true? (by Anonymous on 2010-09-16 04:21:22 GMT from United States)
Are some things in LMDE still supposed to say ubuntu, like the update manager mintupdate?. If you right click the icon and go to preferences, it shows ubuntu or third party???
102 • #94: No clue what a Linux professional does (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-16 05:50:11 GMT from United States)
Forgive me if I sound harsh but... You, Anon, have no clue what Linux professional does. In most cases we support or write code for or design systems for the enterprise, whether that is the corporate world, government or some other sort of institution. For professional Linux stability and they availability of commercial support from the distributor are what drives the choice of distribution.
Commercial ISVs (i.e.: Oracle) certify their code against specific release versions. If you deviate there is no support and no guarantee things will work. No matter how much of an FOSS advocate I may be I have to admit that there are some things where commercial software is still the only way to go, even in a Linux environment. This is true either because there is no FOSS equivalent (common with highly specialized, industry specific apps) or because the FOSS equivalent doesn't scale up enough or lacks features. If you need to support commercial code you absolutely stick with the distros and versions they support.
Hardware vendors on the high end (i.e.: IBM), for both enterprise and high performance computing, often require specialized drivers and, once again, often only certify against specific distros and releases.
Distros generally supported in the North American market always include Red Hat and Novell/SUSE. Beyond that some will support Ubuntu LTS, Oracle/Unbreakable Linux and/or Debian stable. SInce CentOS and Scientific Linux are essentially binary recompilations of Red Hat Enterprise Linux code they can be pretty safely used in the enterprise as well. That's pretty much the full list.
Rolling release model distros simply will NEVER work in a professional environment because there is no true fixed point to certify against. They are a perpetually moving target. Cutting edge distros are not used in the enterprise because, once again, stability and support are the paramount concerns. Businesses and government want things to just work and not fail.
So yes, anything in a rolling release distro that requires a quick fix or trip to the fora could mean downtime which translates into lost productivity and often loss of income. It isn't acceptable and it is "too much bother" and if you had even the slightest clue about what being a Linux professional entails you would know that. Your criticism is so far off base it isn't even funny.
Oh, and anecdotal "it works for me reports" do nothing to alleviate the concerns that people have about the rolling release model nor do they invalidate other experiences people may have.
103 • @Caitlyn (by jake on 2010-09-16 06:14:02 GMT from United States)
Been there, done that ... Sing it ... But don't forget to breathe ;-)
104 • Re: #102 Linux professionals (by silent on 2010-09-16 06:53:42 GMT from Hungary)
So, if Linux professionals do not use rolling release distros, those who create them are either not professionals or do not use their own distros? Just a joke, I agree that they are not for the enterprise market.
105 • Re: 104 (by jake on 2010-09-16 07:25:15 GMT from United States)
"So, if Linux professionals do not use rolling release distros, those who create them are either not professionals or do not use their own distros?"
Yes.
106 • rolling release (by ime on 2010-09-16 12:54:58 GMT from Serbia)
Rolling release is the best thing what I found in linux world.For somebody who have over 100 programs installed and some specific conf files,it will be painful every 6 months to reinstall system.
107 • @98 (Package Authentication) (by Anonymous on 2010-09-16 13:17:46 GMT from United States)
A dismissive tone on a critical system component failure is irresponsible. In the thread you linked, a user posted it's a matter of trust and to just let it go. Seriously? I wouldn't trust my data to such sloppy package management. There are just too many things that can go wrong. Debian certainly doesn't work that way, and aside from Mint (and derivatives) I can't think of another distro that would allow something like that to continue. Fail.
108 • @ C. Martin re: Rolling releases (by Anon on 2010-09-16 13:58:43 GMT from Norway)
Oh my.
If a package upgrade breaks some functionality, or even the system, it doesn't mean one's working files are lost. Upgrading is a separate operation. Testing the upgrade is another. Resuming work is a third. Getting back up from a failure is usually a matter of upto 40 seconds lost by 'downgrading' to a previous version in the cache directory. Besides, I explicitly stated qualifications like "home desktop" etc.
The sweeping dissing of rolling distros should stop. They may be the best option for people with a genuine interest in Linux, as opposed to certain distros.
You are right about one thing, though: I have no experience with working for or with American corporations, so life isn't all bad.
109 • @108, foolproof (by Josh on 2010-09-16 17:57:56 GMT from United States)
Seriously, only 40 seconds? I haven't used any rolling release yet, but I wouldn't bet my life on such things. For home use, yea its good. But, I wonder if there's ever been a time where the downgrade did not work. I'm willing to bet there has. No, its not a completely bad thing if you have a backup. But then begs the question, could you ever fully trust an update after that?
Not dissing anyone's ideas, I like the idea of rolling releases that keep up with the latest program advancements. But, on other distros, maybe a good idea would be to have a repo that does "rolling" updates to programs such as firefox and the like.
Just my 2 cents on the subject.
110 • A few more comments (by Anonymous on 2010-09-16 19:12:58 GMT from United States)
#106: Which distro requires you to reinstall every six months? I'm not aware of any such distro. Ubuntu doesn't. Their upgrade in place usually works. Ditto Mandriva and Fedora. Seriously, why on earth do you feel you have to reinstall every six months? For that matter why do you have to upgrade to every new release if the previous one is still supported, if updates are still being issued and if it works for you?
#104. As Jake said, yes. Rolling release distros are generally hobbyist distros. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and if that is what you want to use then by all means go for it. My #102 was a response to a smart a** line about "Linux professionals" in #94. What is fine for the hobbyist has no relation to what professionals need to do to keep their employers or clients happy and keep a business running.
#108: I have, in my 15 years working with Linux, seen an upgrade seriously hose a machine. There was no way to recover in 40 seconds or even 40 minutes. Professional systems administrators don't have the time to test new upgrades on a daily basis either. The workload involved for using a rolling release distro in an enterprise environment would be prohibitive. Once again, you have to understand what an enterprise needs: stability, reliability and support. Rolling release distros compromise on all of the above. Actually, AFAIK, none offer support to enterprise customers. I honestly don't have the time to much around on my personal machines either.
What I said doesn't just apply to "American corporations". I did billable work for a customer in the UK this week running CentOS. They can't afford downtime either. I included the North American market because that is what I know best. Clearly if I included other distros I would have had other distros on the list but it would still have been a relatively short list without any rolling release distros. FWIW, I also have done work for both the U.S. federal and the North Carolina state governments.
What is wrong working for an American corporation anyway? They pay well and their checks clear the bank.
111 • #110 is mine (if that isn't obvious already) (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-16 19:14:05 GMT from United States)
Sorry, folks. I was just a little too quick at clicking Submit...
112 • Re: Rolling distros (by Anon on 2010-09-16 21:53:08 GMT from Norway)
@Caitlyn Martin,
I wouldn't know what, if anything, might be wrong with American corporations, except I'm being given the impression they tend to keep their employees/contractors on a rather short leash.
I am talking about ordinary Linux users, wherof some are hobbyists, but also many doing serious work not the least bit to do with Linux per se. Hopefully most Linux users are neither, or the Linux installed base may turn out to be a lot smaller than we like to think/wish.
# pacman -U [path]/[package]
does in fact usually finish execution in less than 40 secs. I have needed to resort to such 'downgrades' twice in the 30 months I have used Arch Linux (I erroneously wrote 35 months in a previous post).
I have no problem understanding that certain kinds of computer related work or administration require systems to be as stable as absolutely possible, but this website addresses Linux users in general, not professionals specifically. The professionals already know, and the general public does not need warnings about rolling distros either. On the contrary - they would, IMO from my own experience, benefit a lot from trying out Arch or similar. So please stop dissing rolling distros. People learn (more) Linux from using them. I have.
I support your advocacy of Slackware-based distros, though ;)
113 • @109 (by Brandon Sniadajewski on 2010-09-16 23:11:05 GMT from United States)
The closest I can come up with for "rolling" repos are openSUSE's Build Service and *ubuntu's PPA's.
114 • RE:102 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-17 02:32:21 GMT from United States)
I noticed that you listed Debian stable near the end.
Is that just coincidence or is it not stable or usable enough?
Is Debian stable the same as or similar to Debian carrier grade Linux?
I use Debian Stable Linux for my home/play computers and basically only see any kind of problem just when a new stable comes out, then after a few months go by 99.9% of any problems are gone.
Just curious.
Thanks
115 • VMware is buying Novell (by RollMeAway on 2010-09-17 02:42:33 GMT from United States)
http://blogs.computerworld.com/16978/vmware_is_buying_novell
The cards are being shuffled again.
The important thing is where does the UNIX patents end up?
And, what will they do with them?
116 • @112 &@115 (by jake on 2010-09-17 03:28:22 GMT from United States)
112: Nobody's dissing rolling distros. Re-read Caitlyn's, where she says "Nothing wrong with that", which I totally agree with ... We're just pointing out that they are not really fit for production work, and why that is the case. If you like rolling distros, and feel they help you with your understanding of Linux, enjoy! Personally, the closet thing I have to a rolling distro is a laptop running Slack-current. But it's not a production box, it's just me keeping an eye on PV's doings ... and giving back to the community by filing bug reports (and occasionally bitching about changes).
115: The UNIX[tm] patents are no longer relevant. They haven't been for about a decade, maybe a hair longer. The only thing they're good for anymore is making money for lawyers, alas. Shame, really. What a waste.
117 • #114: Debian stable and enterprise environments (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-17 04:46:32 GMT from United States)
#114: My list in post #102 referred to which distributions are supported by ISVs. A few do support Debian stable but most do not, hence it being at the end of the list. The two distros that are almost universally supported are Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SUSE Linux Enterprise. More ISVs are supporting Ubuntu LTS even though I see it making relatively few inroads into enterprise space so far. The ordering of the list had nothing to do with quality and everything to do with which distros commercial software vendors support.
Is Debian stable an enterprise grade OS? In terms of quality, IMNSHO, yes, it is. It certainly lives up to the "stable" description, it is reliable, and security patches are delivered promptly. The main difficulty Debian has in gaining acceptance is the fact that it isn't corporate or government backed and that support has to be purchased from third party vendors rather than directly from the distributor. For many enterprise decision makers that rules it out. I happen to think there are enough reputable firms that gladly support Debian for support to be a non-issue but many corporate IT management types don't see it that way.
118 • Considering Debian (by Michael Raugh on 2010-09-17 12:28:07 GMT from United States)
@87: I have, actually, considered just going to straight Debian. The problem is I'm a little spoiled -- I want OpenOffice, Firefox (and all my favorite plugins) and KDE to stay at or close to the latest released versions. Straight Debian updates things very slowly, which is appropriate for a distribution aimed at stability and reliability but doesn't meet my desires. So I keep looking for that elusive balance between up-to-date apps and a stable base to run them on.
I'll keep an eye on MintDE and when/if they reach a point where it looks viable for me I may give it a try. Assuming I haven't fallen in love with something else by then. ;^)
-MR
119 • @87 Debian staying current (by Anonymous on 2010-09-17 13:17:58 GMT from United States)
Testing is never terribly far behind. Iceweasel is Firefox, to the extent that $firefox launches it. All plugins for firefox work with Iceweasel. If you use and understand apt-listbugs, Sid will keep you on the bleeding age with relatively little risk.
Debian is not as difficult as many think, so long as you are literate and have a desire to learn. ;)
120 • Welcome back, Knoppix! (by John Erickson on 2010-09-17 15:41:22 GMT from Indonesia)
This is the first time I hear again about knoppix. As the pioneer of linux live cd distro, knoppix should bring new feature to keep as live cd leader...:-)
121 • re#120 Live Cd (by hab on 2010-09-17 16:41:40 GMT from Canada)
Actually knoppix is a bit of a late comer to live cds. According to Wikipedia "The first Linux-based 'Live CD' was Yggdrasil Linux first released in beta form 1992~1993" and the earliest live cd was FM Towns OS first released in 1989
And i don't believe Knoppix was around in '89 or '92-'93. There may be something they pioneered but it most certainly was not live cd's.
cheers
122 • RE:Wikipedia (by Eddie on 2010-09-17 18:18:49 GMT from United States)
And if Wikipedia states it then we know it has to be true? No one should ever state items in Wikipedia as being fact without further sources.
123 • aptosid (by polycarp on 2010-09-17 22:00:51 GMT from United States)
1) As a sidux => aptosid user, I commented in the sidux forums that aptosid was an AWFUL name, but the devs and distro are great whatever the name.
2) I had no problem at all doing a dist-upgrade from sidux to aptosid. MMV, I guess.
124 • Salix (by ggehd on 2010-09-17 22:18:27 GMT from United States)
Salix 13.1 On Netbook EEE 10.1 Couldn't install touchpad or USB Mouse
125 • RE: #118 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-17 22:46:59 GMT from Italy)
As Anonymous from United States said, Debian Testing is often more up to date than distributions that release every so often. Of course Sid is even better, but for me Testing is the right balance between bleeding edge and stability.
Or you could run a mixed system (Testing/Unstable), not difficult and quite funny.
As to Thunderbird or Firefox, I download them from Mozilla.org.
Installing them the first time is a simple procedure.
Even OpenOffice can be downloaded from .openoffice.org as debs.
126 • Archbang all change again; Novell not quite sold? (by gnomic on 2010-09-17 23:09:58 GMT from New Zealand)
Hummm, was about to quibble that Archbang was no longer an Openbox sort of affair but had switched to LXDE. However a quick look at the website reveals that it's back to Plan A, ie being vaguely like Crunchbang. Still not quite sure why this project gets all the love on Distrowatch while archiso-live gets none. Archbang has frequent changes of direction and is presently next release date unknown. To quote "Our next release date is undetermined at this time but we'll go back to AB = Arch Linux + OpenBox :D". This after 3 months or so when not very much at all appears to have happened, at least as evidenced by news on the front page of their site.
As to Novell being sold to VMware, perhaps not quite as yet? Quick web check appears to indicate that VMware would like the SUSE Linux business and discussions are in progress. VMware's objective would be competing with Red Hat around getting large enterprises into the clouds (or in the jargon, acquiring a full cloud stack).
127 • #124: SalixOS (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-17 23:37:04 GMT from United States)
USB mouse support and touchpad support work well for me in SalixOS with a netbook. I've seen no reports of your problem in the forum. Did you raise the issue there? Which SalixOS build are you using? Live or standard? LXDE or Xfce? Did you try to sort out the problem at all? What steps did you take?
Input devices like touchpads and USB are basic parts of Linux and SalixOS does nothing special with them. It's all vanilla Slackware code and is the same as pretty much any other distro. I have to wonder if you got a bad burn or a corrupted download as their is nothing in SalixOS to cause such a failure.
128 • openSUSE 11.3 (by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky on 2010-09-18 06:20:22 GMT from United States)
"So I keep looking for that elusive balance between up-to-date apps and a stable base to run them on."
I'm happy with openSUSE 11.3. If you install it with the default repositories, you get a recent (mid-July 2010) set of applications and kernel, plus security and bug fix updates. But if you want to track OpenOffice, VirtualBox, Firefox, KDE / GNOME as they evolve, you can add in the repositories for those applications and get the latest versions as soon as they're "ported" to openSUSE.
129 • ... still on knoppix ... (by meanpt on 2010-09-18 07:35:08 GMT from Portugal)
... don't forget it boots fast too ...
130 • @122 (by jake on 2010-09-18 07:43:59 GMT from United States)
The difference between "bootable" Linux CDs and "Live" Linux CDs is purely semantic and a matter of perception ... Most of us old-timers don't see a difference, beyond CPU, disk bus bandwidth, and memory needs ... The GUI isn't really a necessary part of the over-all operating system ... Access to the guts is.
Yggdrasil provided that, from a bootable CD.
Walnut Creek CDROM made it easy for those of us who were trying to teach *nix in the SF-BayArea, by providing working *nix bootable CDs, in the form of Yggdrasil.
Somewhere, I have a 4-CD set that has Yggdrasil, Slackware, BSD, and a copy of an FTP site that worked with all three distros ... probably simtel. I'm guessing late 1993, or early 1994ish. Three of the four CDs are bootable.
131 • Re. 42: sidux's new name (by uz64 on 2010-09-18 09:15:16 GMT from United States)
"Be thankful we can pronounce and spell the new name.
Unlike any of their "Release" names.
Those I cannot pronounce, or even type."
You mean... like aptosid 2010-02 'Κῆρες'?
LOL... don't ask WTF I just typed there. Copied and pasted it directly from their new site. In other words, their "names" are just as f***ed up as they've always been. It's just that now, it's boringly named aptosid instead of the much cooler (IMO) sidux.
132 • Aptosid? (by Anonymous on 2010-09-18 11:17:53 GMT from Italy)
It sounds very much as a name of a prescription drug, lol. Something you take if you have an upset stomach :D
133 • Knoppix vs earlier live CDs (by Jesse on 2010-09-18 12:06:46 GMT from Canada)
Comparing Knoppix to live disc from the early 90s is taking things pretty far out of context. Consider that in the early 90s a lot of people didn't have CD burners, so an iso image would be next to useless. You'd have to get a copy via a magazine or store. We're also talking about a time period prior to modern desktop environments on Linux. So booting into a live disc cera 1993 would be a bit like loading TinyCore without software modules, desktop, or much for hardware support.
When Knoppix came onto the scene it detected or worked around most hardware, provided a modern desktop system without requiring configuration and made most tasks point and click. Comparing Knoppix to Yggdrasil is a bit like comparing super sonic jet fighters of the 1960s with Wright brothers' airplane. There is a relation, but the two technologies are very different.
134 • Persistente Distributionen und Hardwareanforderungen (by Andreas Kayser on 2010-09-18 12:27:01 GMT from Germany)
Hallo Leute !
Erstmal Lob zu dieser Site ! Muss schon sagen, dass ihr hier die Seite recht gut pflegt und immer stetig am Ball bleibt ! Nur eine klein winzige Kritik hätt ich hier noch anzubringen ! Wäre es nicht möglich, mal noch anzuzeigen, welche Distributionen persistent auf USB laufen und welche Hardwareanforderungen für die jeweiligen Betriebssysteme erforderlich sind. Liesse sich ja der übersichthalber in Kategorien (mit Angaben zu CPU, RAM und w.) sicher bewerkstelligen. Diese Seite soll ja sicher nicht nur denen dienen...die sich Experten in Linux nennen...!
Danke im Voraus....
135 • @133 ... might be a better simile than you thought ... (by jake on 2010-09-18 13:16:16 GMT from United States)
I can get cross-country faster and easier, with far fewer grounds-crew and other resources, in my Cessna A152 than Larry Ellison can in his MiG ... and I'm pretty certain that I can out-maneuver him in close quarters at the same time. Horses for courses & all that ;-)
136 • Welcome to Mageia! (by Anonymous on 2010-09-18 14:57:11 GMT from United States)
Mageia – A New Linux Distribution forked from former Mandriva employees.
137 • mageia ! (by goom on 2010-09-18 15:30:39 GMT from France)
website of the fork project : http://mageia.org
138 • RE: 134 Hardware (by Jesse on 2010-09-18 17:37:02 GMT from Canada)
Wenn ich Sie richtig verstehe, möchten Sie Mindest-Systemanforderungen der Distributionen überprüft sehen? Einschließlich CPU, RAM und Festplattenspeicher? Oder vielleicht habe ich verstanden, mein Deutsch ist schwach.
Again, in English:
If I understand you correctly, you would like to see minimum system requirements of the distros reviewed? Including CPU, RAM and hard drive space? Or perhaps I misunderstood, my German is weak.
139 • Wolvix? (by Neal on 2010-09-18 17:49:19 GMT from United States)
Does anyone know what has happened to Wolvix? Does this project still live?
Thx..
140 • Rolling Release - Caitlin? (by J. Linux on 2010-09-18 22:19:17 GMT from United States)
This whole 'rolling release is just fine for those non-professional, lesser people who use Linux but don't really matter' attitude you have is comical.
I would say about 80% of the points you've made -aren't relevant-! I'm not saying you're wrong, or that the things you are saying aren't true. However, if you have any inclination to look outside yourself and what 'Linux means to you' and actually examine this debate in context, I think you'll see your views so far have been largely unproductive.
If you are running enterprise hardware/software, powering many web services, networks, etc. or any other 'production level' or 'commercial' service then obviously you aren't going to make some modifications to your system without testing it first. But that has nothing to do with the release cycle of updates. That risk still applies if you are using a non-rolling release system like Red Hat. You could just as easily apply an official patch that came down the Q/A approved pipe of Red Hat dev-land to discovery, by Gods, it crashes your system!
It doesn't matter if you are getting updates in a rolling release form or through six-month 'certified releases', if you are running a production server, you should create a test replication of that system as accurately as possible and apply the patch there first. Red Hat makes mistakes too.
So, there is a group of hobbyist developers working on a non-commercial project called Mint Linux, and they decided to port it to Debian. There goals seem to be ease of use, stability, and remaining 'free'. (Free as in freedom, not price. I don't know if you're familiar with this idea, being a linux professional and all?)
Now, can you please explain to me how discussing independent software vendor specifications and the (rather unique) needs of production level, enterprise linux systems is relevant to the development of Mint on Debian?
This is what, the first release of this distro? 90% of people's negative comments have been along the lines of, "I expect to have this. It does not, it sucks." or, "In entirely unrelated context to the development of Mint on Debian for home computers, we do things -this- way and since Mint is not doing them this way it's a bad distro."
Debian is very stable. For this kind of project, where objectives and needs are still a little hazy, it makes no sense to be thinking in release cycles. As far as I can tell, the Mint team launched this project not really knowing if there was even an audience who would appreciate it. It's a great idea. Mint is a wonderful interface, and Debian is a brilliant distribution of linux. If you are half the linux professional you say you are, you probably have a machine in your home that ISN'T being used exclusively for whatever fancy professional crap it is you do, right?
I'm thinking, if you make your living using Linux, and your attitude in the community is 'stick with things that are backed either commercially or by the government and will be validated by IVS" then you are kind of being counter-productive to the fundamental philosophies behind free software and open source development.
You're encouraging people to 'choose' distributions that outside organizations, government agencies, etc. have some investment in direct opposition to the kind of people, ideas, and projects that have made linux what it is today.
I'm tired so I might be rambling, heh. I don't understand why someone who's so professional with Linux would spend their energy focusing on arguing the cons of some given development models instead of contributing something to the project.
If you are any kind of linux professional, you could have just as easily remarked on the possibility of problems that can result from such a model and maybe offered a couple suggestions or advice on how to mitigate/prevent those issues in the first place. That would be more helpful than, "Your development model is flawed and therefor your project is doomed. I won't be going near this."
Cheers.
141 • Distro's with persistence on USB @134 @138 (by Jan on 2010-09-18 22:24:38 GMT from Netherlands)
Distro's installable on USB and with persistence:
http://linuxliveusb.com/en/supported-linuxes.html
Scroll down at the end of the list to see the meaning of the tokens (the first of three indicates persistence).
Fedora and Mandriva have their own USB installer (with persistence). However I had no succes (obviously PC-hardware dependent).
Ubuntu was nicest.
PS
As far as I have read and experienced, the persistence area is used up, deleted software does not free storage.
So because of upgrading and installing software the usability-time of an USB-persistence Linux-distro depends on the size of the persistence-size.
Jan
142 • Lubuntu (by fernbap on 2010-09-18 22:56:59 GMT from Portugal)
it's nice to see Lubuntu placed as 9th in the hit ratings here. I guess this clearly show the current popularity of LXDE. The KDE developers should learn something from this (Where is Kubuntu, btw?).
As to Mint Debian, i've been using it since the day it came out, and i think it is just what "Linux on the Desktop" needs. Still a few issues to iron out, but time will fix them, and none is serious (at least so far).
Linux in the desktop is also Linux, you know? And if you want o increase the Linux user base, you have to cater the Desktop and also the "dumb users".
Linux needs to increase its user base, i think everyone agrees with that, but it can't be done without the desktop and the dumb users.
143 • #140 Response (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-18 23:25:23 GMT from United States)
First off, my comments were in response to #94 which referred to "Linux professionals." When responding to a comment I do so in the context of the original comment, hence the corporate/professional perspective in my comments about rolling releases. I don't see how I could have framed that response differently so your diatribe in #140 is more than a little off base.
I never said that hobbyists are "lesser people" or that they "don't really matter." You are putting words in my mouth and attributing to me things I NEVER said or even implied. Based on your false premise you decide my attitude is "comical." All I am guilty of doing is responding to a comment in context. You ignore the fact that for my personal use I run what is clearly a hobbyist distro, SalixOS, so if I am dismissive of hobbyists I must be dismissive of myself as well. I don't think so.
Third, you imply that I had a negative opinion of Mint or Debian. Nothing could be further from the truth. I suggest you read my comment #117 where I make perfectly clear that Debian is an enterprise quality distribution.
Fourth, ISV support is a relevant issue if the topic is professional Linux. That was the topic as set by Anon in comment #94. You can only dismiss it as irrelevant by taking my post entirely out of context. Of course every patch on a production server needs to be tested and of course Red Hat makes mistakes. You then go on comparing six month releases and rolling releases when NEITHER is acceptable in a production environment. I never advocated a six month release schedule or claimed that it is somehow superior. Your whole argument at that point is a non-sequetor.
Fifth, you have no idea what I contribute to a project or which distributions (a total of three now) where code I have written is part of the base installation. Spending 10 minutes responding to a comment from the community in DWW is, IMNSHO, a perfectly valid use of my time and in no way detracts from my professional work.
Sixth, I do believe that what works best for the enterprise desktop is what works best for the home desktop as well for most users who are not hard core hobbyists. The typical user wants their system to "just work" which is absolutely no different than what the business or government user wants. The rolling release model, IMHO, is not conducive to that goal.
So, yes, I essentially dismiss any distro which follows what I believe to be a fatally flawed model. I can't offer advice to mitigate a fatal flaw. My advice is to avoid rolling release distros like the plague. You are free to disagree, of course. You are free to find my opinion "unproductive" and I am free to disagree with that.
Finally, my name is Caitlyn. If you want to be taken seriously I recommend not misspelling the name of the person you are addressing.
144 • 142 • Lubuntu (by Verndog on 2010-09-18 23:35:50 GMT from United States)
I've been following Lubuntu rise closely. I tried it once quite a while back. The problem is they promote it as for less powerful computers.
I hope it gets adopted into Ubuntu's fold soon. That way I can use zsync, instead of having to download it each time.
Right now Kubuntu is causing all sorts of havic. Its the KDE side that is the issue.
145 • #142/144: Lubuntu (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-19 00:34:04 GMT from United States)
It's interested how quickly a distro which has never had anything other than alpha and beta releases did rise so fast. If anything it makes me question the validity of the hit counters or the wisdom of our DW community.
Yes, Lubuntu is targeting legacy hardware. As a result they have no 64-bit release which is kind of a pity. If someone likes a distro they may want to run it on all their machines. Yes, you can add LXDE to any Ubuntu install but is it quite the same?
146 • @Verndog 144 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-19 00:38:15 GMT from United States)
I wouldn't be so fast to blame KDE for the Kubuntu mess. Ubuntu has a solid track record for making things a lot fatter than they need to be.
Slackware, Mepis and sidux/aptosid (whatever) have very snappy implementations of KDE. I haven't tried the BSD variants, but have heard good things on that side of the fence as well. KDE is still too big a girl for my tastes, but it's good to know not everyone is following ubuttnut's philosophy on the desktop.
147 • Re: #143 about rolling releases (by Anon on 2010-09-19 00:41:48 GMT from Norway)
Caitlyn Martin writes:
"(...)for my personal use I run what is clearly a hobbyist distro, SalixOS(,,,)"
"(...)I do believe that what works best for the enterprise desktop is what works best for the home desktop as well for most users who are not hard core hobbyists.(...)"
"(...)So, yes, I essentially dismiss any distro which follows what I believe to be a fatally flawed model. I can't offer advice to mitigate a fatal flaw. My advice is to avoid rolling release distros like the plague.(...)"
SalixOS is based on Slackware, which means one may have to compile one's own packages sooner than with many other distros. How, then, can this distro be more recommendable for Linux newbies than a rolling distro offering more ready, tailored and tested (although not extensively tested) packages automatically installed by a few phrases on the command line? Or have I misunderstood and you are only recommending SalixOS to experienced/ professional Linux users?
148 • #147: Oh my! (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-09-19 01:00:37 GMT from United States)
SalixOS has a much larger repository than Slackware so you are far less likely to have to compile anything than you are with vanilla Slackware.
If you bothered to read my review of SalixOS here on DistroWatch Weekly last month you would already know that I did NOT recommend it for newcomers: http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20100823
You are confusing "experienced" Linux users with "Linux professionals". While a Linux professional is undoubtedly an experienced user an experienced user may or may not work with Linux professionally. The majority do not. There are plenty of people whose knowledge of Linux is considerable without ever doing Linux for a living. There are plenty of hobbyists who have made significant contributions to FOSS in general and Linux in particular. You seem to think hobbyist is a perjorative term. It isn't. You seem to think I equate home user or hobbyist with cluelessness. I don't.
SalixOS and Slackware in general are not suitable for the enterprise for a number of reasons covered both in my reviews and my comments above. They are more suitable for home/hobbyist use or perhaps a small office that doesn't need enterprise level security (i.e.: PAM, SELinux).
The problem, once again, for the LAST time, is that rolling releases have no fixed point of reference, no set starting point, from which to work when something goes wrong. Rolling release distros have what I believe to be an inherently flawed distribution model that almost guarantees periodic breakage. I don't recommend rolling release distros to anyone, ever, under any circumstances. However, if you, as a Linux hobbyist, want to live on the edge well, then, be my guest. It's your system and your time.
Oh, that's right... I know, your system is perfect and anything can be fixed in 40 seconds. Sorry, either you have been incredibly lucky, a distinct possibility, or your description is somewhat tailored to your agenda. I know I've only worked with Linux for 15 years (12 professionally) but I would never promise to be able to fix something in 40 minutes, let alone 40 seconds.
149 • @#124 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-19 02:26:40 GMT from United States)
I had an issue with my usb mouse, keyboard not working with Salix 13.1 LXDE Live on a usb key (unetbootin). Edited the default start commands removing "Keyb=${kb}", keyboard and mouse working fine now! Maybe this helps.
Love that they included the "Persistence Wizard" in the live disk. Thank you!
Nice and Snappy performance too!!
Specs: Intel 865gl Board, Pentium IV 3.2HT
150 • Emotional attachment is rarely logical. (by jake on 2010-09-19 03:03:21 GMT from United States)
Unfortunately, it would seem that people get emotionally attached their distro of choice. What they forget is that said distro doesn't return that emotional attachment.
If any given distro works for you, use it. Why the emotion? Where are the issues, really, when you boil it down to ones & zeros? This ain't a religious movement!
151 • Lubuntu (by fernbap on 2010-09-19 03:15:37 GMT from Portugal)
"It's interested how quickly a distro which has never had anything other than alpha and beta releases did rise so fast."
Not exactly so. Lubuntu will call all its releases beta until it is admitted in the ubuntu family, but there is nothing beta in their releases.
"If anything it makes me question the validity of the hit counters or the wisdom of our DW community."
Why is that i saw that coming?
"Yes, Lubuntu is targeting legacy hardware. As a result they have no 64-bit release which is kind of a pity. If someone likes a distro they may want to run it on all their machines."
You are missing the point. LXDE is a lightweight desktop, those who want it will probably not want to run heavy 64 bit apps, so i see no problem in using a 32 bit distro in a 64 bit machine.
Funny how Lubuntu rised so high, while all people wanted to promote peppermint went nowhere...
152 • Rolling context (by Anynom on 2010-09-19 12:25:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hmm....
Context of 94
I think 94 was not implying that, as a professional, you should have no qualms running a rolling-release in 'professional' environments. To me. it came across that a professional (especially) should have no problem managing a rolling-release for personal use.
153 • Zenwalk #34 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-19 14:01:03 GMT from Canada)
It comes with a 100+ page of start-up guidance,plus a users manual,plus some very beautiful screensavers.
Unfortunately mine has no sound, and the guides have info only on Exaile, which is not in this version of Zenwalk
Have not braved the forum yet.
154 • Emotional attachment is rarely logical. (by fernbap on 2010-09-19 15:24:38 GMT from Portugal)
"If any given distro works for you, use it. Why the emotion? Where are the issues, really, when you boil it down to ones & zeros? This ain't a religious movement!"
You make a very good point.
Another important point is that, with the choices you have, installing a "bad" distro is not the end of the world. If it doesn't work as you want, you can always replace it.
For most people, an OS is just the "machine" that allows him to run the apps he needs. You have many "machines" to chose from, most of them sharing the same or very similar apps. As long as you take the necessary steps to secure your data, you risk nothing.
I'm not referring to the enterprise world, of course, but then, most computers are personal.
155 • @153 • Zenwalk #34 (by Anonymous on 2010-09-19 153 • Zenwalk #34 (by Anonymous (by meanpt on 2010-09-19 15:59:31 GMT from Portugal)
No sound? :):):):) ... it happened to me ... after fidling around it, I found PCM waiving must be enabled and switched on ... but I don't know if this will also work for you :)
156 • Flash Square (by KevinC on 2010-09-19 18:30:33 GMT from United States)
FYI:
New 64-bit preview release is working great for me. Used w/ Firefox, and Chromium with XFCE, Gnome and KDE. Full screen works w/out out a hitch.
157 • @ #109 by Josh (by Tom Horn on 2010-09-19 18:57:42 GMT from United States)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"..maybe a good idea would be to have a repo that does "rolling" updates to programs such as firefox and the like."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure about others, however Linux Mint 9 provides precisely those sorts of updates on an ongoing basis.
158 • Number of all distributions in the database: 666 (by JD on 2010-09-19 19:37:41 GMT from United States)
Sure it is some heavy number for "Other OS"
159 • Re: #152 • Rolling context (by Anon on 2010-09-19 21:56:09 GMT from Norway)
Cigar! ;-)
160 • Mandriva Future (by Alex on 2010-09-19 21:58:28 GMT from Canada)
Mandriva will be forked in the near future and many of the longtime developers and supporters seem destined to unite behind a new distro called Mageia [a Greek word for White Magic.
Read the first post and the list of people supporting it here ........
http://www.mageia.org/
161 • Re: #148 (by Anon on 2010-09-19 22:17:18 GMT from Norway)
Caitlyn Martin wrote: "Oh, that's right... I know, your system is perfect and anything can be fixed in 40 seconds."
Close, but no cigar. Besides, I never even implied it. I have said most flukes can be fixed this way. I also wrote that one might conceivably have to rely on a restore of a full backup.
The same applies to all relatively well establised distros. Things do go wrong now and then. My point is simply that it isn't the least bit more difficult to fix a problem in a rolling release distro than in any other. It may often be easier. The rolling release is the future.
I am sorry I have not read all your articles and comments with a satisfactory degree of attention.
162 • Rolling Context (by J. Linux on 2010-09-19 22:53:25 GMT from United States)
From 152: To me. it came across that a professional (especially) should have no problem managing a rolling-release for personal use.
Summarizing a key point perfectly.
Anyway, I tend to think of the definition of fatal as 'bringing death'. So a fatal flaw in a program's design or in the development model is something that could (and most likely would!) bring death to the application, the machine running it, or the project itself.
@ 143: "So, yes, I essentially dismiss any distro which follows what I believe to be a fatally flawed model." .. "My advice is to avoid rolling release distros like the plague."
Key point of contention here and the reason I feel compelled to state it: You are passing your own lack of either motivation or ability to effectively manage your system off as a 'fatal flaw of a distribution'. A friend of mine runs a production level server on a fork of Arch Linux, using very current or even 'cutting edge' -hardware- and -software-. I've seen his site go down twice for maintenance, no crashes.
There is no fatal flaw in the way his system handles updates. In fact, he would argue the exact opposite. He has had total freedom to have his system update in EXACTLY the way he wants it. It is the epitome of a lean system IMO, no bloat and only the right versions of the right software for the tasks the system performs are present.
Linux is about freedom. At least when I started playing this game, there was a strong sense of purpose in distro development. "We should be able to do... anything." Open-source development and such are, at least to me, about overcoming limitations. My system shouldn't limit me in any way. Sure, running Arch linux is going to require more attentiveness and maybe a little more work for less experienced hobbyists than Ubuntu would, but it hardly has any 'flaw guaranteed to bring it death'
Go code, go write something, go change something, and then share it with people. The more collectively organized you get, the more you encounter situations where a big group of people are making a cost/benefit decision regarding the development of a system that's going to affect a lot of end users. If we tell every linux newbie to grab Ubuntu because it's safe, and Ubuntu developers are deciding they can only support 'such-and-such peripheral' anymore, our advice and their decision kind of inadvertently restrict their freedom.
'Fatal flaw' is heavy language to describe a Debian compliant distro with a well-developed, friendly interface supported by a great team, and on a site where it's extremely likely to be read by those kinds of people. (Er, *nix-nubs.)
163 • Not again ! (by RollMeAway on 2010-09-19 23:49:29 GMT from United States)
A "Fatal flaw" to you, is an interesting challenge to me.
The "perfect OS" for you, is useless to me.
What I like on a desktop, you might think is horrible.
Applications I use, you never would have use for.
If I had to choose ONE OS, I probably would stop using computers.
When will arrogant self centered people stop dictating what others should use?
164 • RE: Not again ! (163) (by curiousgeorge on 2010-09-20 00:33:56 GMT from United States)
Are you addressing anyone in particular?
I completely agree with you, but it kind of seems to me like that's what long-winded-guy was saying in 162.
165 • @160 • Mandriva Future (by Fred on 2010-09-20 01:03:06 GMT from United States)
But it is being set up by the same closed minded individuals that ignored the Mandriva community for years.
166 • SMP on OpenBSD (by FemTV on 2010-09-20 02:46:20 GMT from Indonesia)
I hope they will overhaul their SMP scheduler soon.
167 • Re:151 Peppermint (by spaceranger1 on 2010-09-20 05:29:14 GMT from United States)
Actually, we`re all right here with a forum approaching 1000 members. We`re simply enjoying our prize distro that boots up in under 10 seconds and shuts down in 3!
Number of Comments: 167
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