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1 • grub2 (by DG at 2010-04-19 08:40:32 GMT from Netherlands)
One adventurous developer has provided a minimal grub2 package for Lunar Linux, but it does require a knowledgable user to provide a hand-crafted config file.
Use only if you know what you are doing!
2 • Cool to see alot of oses covered :) (by JD at 2010-04-19 08:40:58 GMT from United States)
Another great distrowatch weekly !
It was great to see another operaing system covered just to shake things up a bit. Although I'm a Linux dude myself.
On another note Can you belive oracle? They seem to be ruining everything sun ever built. First no free solaris , then only on sun hardware then no more free opensolaris CDs what's next no more open office? All I can say is way to act just like we feared you would oracle like Jack@###s!
3 • @2 (by Stuart at 2010-04-19 09:05:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'd calm down a little about Oracle. So far they've done a decent job of supporting Sun's legacy. And they can hardly "stop" OpenOffice, due to the licensing.
4 • Boot repair tools (by Steve on 2010-04-19 09:26:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi,
Following the GRUB item I want to ask about boot repair / rebuild tools.
After having all sorts of *nixes in various partitions and booting from USB too, I find that occasionally the boot process gets confused or I loose access to a partition. I'd love a tool which interrogated each partition and rebuilt the boot system - which could then be written to USB, MBR or any partition you need.
...does this exist? If so I'd like to hear of it. Is there a rescue disk with this on?
S
5 • AntiX (by Burt at 2010-04-19 09:28:15 GMT from Netherlands)
Happy to see AntiX get a mention. I've used them all - Slitaz, Puppy, TC, etc and AntiX blows them out of the water for ease of use and configurability due to that Debian base and excellent Mepis tools. Anyone thinking of installing a light system should definately take a look at AntiX.
6 • nice spin (by anonymous because it bugs you at 2010-04-19 09:55:05 GMT from United States)
The kernel developers [..snip..] have spent a lot of time and effort trying to get the kernel scheduler to work really well across many different types of machines and situations.
That is one way of putting it. But considering the number of corporations that have spent a great deal of time, money, and effort to port the old 2.4.x scheduler to 2.6.x it may not be an entirely accurate statement. :)
7 • About Linux kernel scheduling (by Anonymous on 2010-04-19 11:41:28 GMT from Brazil)
One may also make changes in user processes, if the code is available, turning them "real-time". I recall - to be confirmed - cdrecord is one example of a process which asks the kernel to use real-time scheduling.
8 • PCLOS (by Albert Hall at 2010-04-19 12:00:53 GMT from United States)
PCLinuxOS has released some new "flavors" recently. I downloaded the E17 and Gnome Zen Mini versions last night. E17 seems to be missing this morning...
9 • Ext3, Ext4, RiserFS, XFS, Btrfs... (by Chico at 2010-04-19 13:20:07 GMT from United States)
Here is a short article on choosing a file system and the advantages/disadvantages of each. Very helpful for us noobs.
http://maketecheasier.com/choosing-the-best-linux-filesystem/2010/04/13
10 • No good DWW (by Anonymous at 2010-04-19 13:36:56 GMT from United States)
The most disappointing Distrowatch Weekly ever.
What was the point of reviewing HelenOS? No Unix/Linux commands. No HD install. Just a waste of space.
HelenOS belonged in the "Miscellaneous News" section.
Of all the 100's of Linux/BSD distros out there and you pick a non-linux/bsd that can't do anything. What disappointment to read this.
Because of few people have PhD's , and have hacked together mainly a busybox, that makes it worthy of exposure?!
Of all the years I have read DWW, this by far the most disappointing. It was indeed a sad read.
11 • @10 I completely disagree (by sweetnsourbkr at 2010-04-19 14:12:47 GMT from United States)
On the contrary, I think an experimental OS is important enough to be worth mentioning. The current state of Linux/BSD started similarly. If these proto-OS's weren't publicised, I think our world would be a lot less exciting!
I am one that gets excited (even though I'm not a CS student or major) about these types of systems. I don't usually read entire reviews, but when DWW covers these types, HelenOS, Minix, etc, I must admit I read them thoroughly.
Good job DWW for bringing the future to the world. :)
12 • @ 10 (by Peter at 2010-04-19 14:24:15 GMT from United States)
well, anonymous, you could ask DWW for a refund...
13 • @10 (by megadriver at 2010-04-19 15:09:24 GMT from Spain)
I, for one, find stuff like HelenOS vastly more interesting than yet another "big distro" derivative with a few changed apps and a new wallpaper!
14 • @10 (by Larry on 2010-04-19 16:14:24 GMT from United States)
You have a right to your opinion. However, mine is the opposite. I read DWW every Monday not because I'm a geek or a nerd or a hacker or whatever the smart guys call themselves. I'm just a retired old fart who has been playing with Linux since Read Hat 6.1 and Mandrake 7. I'm a home user still in search of the perfect Linux desktop. Most of what I read here goes right over my head. That's OK with me. I still find it all interesting. Even the stuff about HelenOS or MINIX. I know I don't understand either or them and that I'll never use them. I still enjoy reading about them. At the risk of appearing like a hater, their existence is a positive sign to me if only because it shows that MS doesn't own the world yet.
15 • @5 Antix (by atonz on 2010-04-19 16:43:15 GMT from Canada)
I'm always on the lookout for lightweight distros like antix. I'm just wondering why you'd grade it higher than slitaz?
Anyway to burn these two on 1 cd? I'm having problems getting unetbootin to work with anything lately
16 • so much so for antiX (by meanpt at 2010-04-19 17:27:37 GMT from Portugal)
This is the picture caption: antiX MEPIS 8.5 - a SimplyMEPIS-based distribution for older computers
Tested it in VBox and ... well ... if installed, it will not be good for running within 256 MB of RAM, ... in fact, PCLOS Zen mini and Debian does it better. Whatever a distro can put out of the box, being light is the first score. Otherwise is just another mambo.
17 • @10 (by Robin T Cox on 2010-04-19 17:28:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
As another retired old fart, I agree with Larry. Let's have more articles about what's happening at the grass roots. Maybe we'll get a few more green shoots if they are encouraged to develop.
18 • PCLinuxOS 2010 (by GreenWolf70 on 2010-04-19 17:33:25 GMT from United States)
How did DW miss the release of the new PCLinuxOS KDE distro?
19 • @14 (by franklin on 2010-04-19 17:39:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
Respect to you, Larry. The beauty of Linux is that it can cater for just about everyone - from those that need a distro that (hopefully) 'just works' to those at the other end of the spectrum that have the interest and ability to build their own version. I started as one of the former (and I still am) but I do find it fascinating to 'get under the hood/bonnet' when I want to. My Dad is 78 years old and is learning mainly by being left to 'get on with it' and playing with a distro on his 2nd PC. He can do the basics and now prefers it to M$.
[For those that are interested, the Open University (UK) is starting an introductory Linux course in May (ref T155) but the closing date is 24th April (I think)].
Thanks to DWW for a great column - I keep many of the comments/references saved for future use. Kind regards.
20 • RE: 16, VBox may be your problem. (by Eddie Wilson on 2010-04-19 17:41:31 GMT from United States)
I've never tried to run Antix in VBox but I have installed and been able to run Antix is as little as 192 MB of ram. I do consider Antix to be listed as one of the light distros. By the way, what is a mambo?
21 • @15 (by Burt at 2010-04-19 18:00:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just my personal opinion. Both my DVD drives recognised, easy installation of nvidia driver, uses icewm / fluxbox and not relatively bloated lxde, many very good scripts and config tools, Debian based.
22 • Keep em coming (by Flip on 2010-04-19 18:24:55 GMT from United States)
I love them all and I try them all, I also love DistroWatch and all the hard work these great ppl put into keeping up with all the new distro's so I don't have to! Thank You
23 • @16 (by Patrick on 2010-04-19 18:49:46 GMT from United States)
??? Not good for 256MB of RAM?
I just fired it up in a Virtual Box with 128MB, ran in live mode with that little memory and installed fine. Then fired up the installed version, used only 40MB of RAM at the desktop, 60MB with IceApe fired up. Seemed to run just great with only 128MB, let alone 256MB...
24 • Linux DVD Authoring (by Nate on 2010-04-19 19:29:17 GMT from United States)
I am new to the Linux based OS. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good piece of software to use for DVD Authoring. Given my lack of command knowledge, a program that is fairly interfaced would be greatly appreciated. I have tried a number of programs, but I seem to be running into similar problems. It's generally a menu problem. In all of the programs I have tried so far I continue to get a menu background that is pretty pixelated. The pictures I am using for the background are the standard NTSC 720x480 which I had read elsewhere was critical to fixing the problem I am having. But no luck. The closest I have come to what I would consider success is by using DVDstyler.
25 • AntiX (by Tim at 2010-04-19 19:45:07 GMT from United States)
@16,20. I ran AntiX 8.2 on a Toshiba laptop (P2-333 that I maxed out the memory to 190MB) and upgraded to 8.5. Runs fine and does what I want it to do. It runs wireless cards and the app I use it for runs at keyboard (telnet) speed so I wouldn't know the difference. Occasionally I'll use it to download an iso and burn it with my USB portable CD/DVD drive. I find it hard to believe that AntiX chokes in 256MB-must be something in Vbox. The laptop was "designed for Windows 98". I wouldn't be able to run XP on it and it is great to use modern peripherals with it.
26 • RE 18 (by Raphael Frey at 2010-04-19 19:45:26 GMT from Switzerland)
I don’t think they missed the new release but in fact there was no official release announcement. [1] Maybe the PC Linux OS developers want to wait until all versions are ready? [2]
__________
1. http://pclinuxos.com/
2. http://pclinuxos.com/?page_id=542
27 • Amarok (by sly on 2010-04-19 20:03:47 GMT from United States)
Is there any explanation of why the newest version of Amarok in upcoming releases don't offer the Shoutcast service which allows a user to listen to radio stations. Only last FM, Magnitude, and I believe it is spelled Jambadoo are included.
28 • AntiX (by rokytnji on 2010-04-19 20:09:32 GMT from United States)
I have had AntiX run on PII Ibm and some older Laptops. It also runs very well on Newer gear also like my Asus EEE PC 900. I have installed AntiX 8.5 to my EEEPC and have no problems using Skype and moving /home to my seperate 16 gig SSD drive.
I run Puppy Linux also, but AntiX takes the cake when it comes to flexibility
for a lightweight linux distro. Fluxbox, Icewm, Rox-Pinboard just rocks for me.
29 • antiX on Toshiba A-205 (by Todd R. at 2010-04-19 20:13:48 GMT from United States)
antiX Mepis with the second install, new download for good measure even the the hash matched the first time, runs just fine now.
We took it off, though, in favor of PCLinuxOS, aware of their coming release.
It was a good thing, finding two radically behaviors for an install of a distro, because it taught us all that sometimes it is not the distro's fault when things don't go as planned. We have not pinned down exactly why the thing dragged so badly in graphics, but doing another install proved it's a nice distro. It remains on our old PC and won't be moved off, if I can help it. ;)
30 • @26 (by Switzerland at 2010-04-19 20:19:39 GMT from United States)
You are correct. Tex said we are waiting for one more ISO. Once everything is in place then a formal announcement will be made on the main page.
31 • #30 Kudos (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-19 20:20:18 GMT from Greece)
Kudos for giving antiX another shot on that box and for posting the results.
Here is a link to a video showing antiX running in Virtualbox (live and installed), courtesy of OSGUIShow, that gives some idea of what antiX-m8.5 is like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV8Li-PWdsU courtesy of OSGUIShow
32 • Peppermint (by Bert on 2010-04-19 20:20:52 GMT from Belgium)
It surprises me no one commented on the new Peppermint. What's the reason Kendall Weaver of Linux-Mint-fluxbox -and-lxde fame, suddenly starts his own distro, based on.. Lubuntu?
Did anyone succeed in downloading the "private beta"?
He loves beer (really, really loves beer) and loud music.
( http://linuxpeppermint.com/team )
;)
33 • Sorry, post #31 refers to post #29, not #30. (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-19 20:24:42 GMT from Greece)
Sorry, post #31 refers to post #29, not #30.
34 • Released of PCLinusOS 2010 KDE et al. (by Nino Dapto on 2010-04-19 21:11:54 GMT from Australia)
Work is still ongoing on one more ISO (virtualbox version, I believe but I could be wrong) and there has been a recent up-date of E-17 ISO over the last few days. It is up to TEXTAR to make the final release known to the general public. Then Distrowatch will make the release details known in this publication. Have a look at the PCLinuxOS intro page in Distrowatch - they have the new logo up already - so Distrowatch is ready to go with the release, when TEXTAR is "ready". Hope this explains it - PCLinuxOS is always "ready when it"s ready".
35 • MEPIS/ANTIX and the GPL (by Adam on 2010-04-19 21:53:54 GMT from Canada)
I'd have strong reservations about using any MEPIS distro. Look at a Distrowatch review of MEPIS, where the reviewer took issue with the 'EULA'. Any Linux distro is NOT some proprietary product. Warren Woodford keeps asking for the Free Software Foundation to sue his pants off--time for them to call his bluff.
36 • Multi-boot cd and USB install. (by commenter at 2010-04-19 22:44:00 GMT from Brazil)
@15 (atonz) You can have SliTaz and antiX in the same cd using the framework provided by the package at the fifth post at http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=39051&sid=cd2d49dd60981ac5c853c1af8ae25607 originally made to boot several Puppy versions.
Since Puppy works in a fromiso style you must setup antiX and SliTaz in the cd as if booting fromiso. For antiX the instructions are at http://antix.mepis.com/index.php/Installation_Tips . You will find them for SliTaz at their site for sure.
Some time back I played with this and put SliTaz 2.0, antiX-M8-base and three puplets in one cd.
antiX has a very simple and effective USB installer with persistence option as well. Boot it from the live-cd or fromiso from your HD and launch Control Center > Discs > antix2usb. If you boot from the live-cd it needs the iso in the HD to copy to the flashdrive but if you boot fromiso then it's already there.
Regards.
37 • #4 boot repair tools (by nataguru at 2010-04-20 00:15:05 GMT from United States)
Perhaps Super Grub Disk- Hybrid-1.98?
38 • Oracle (by noob-ish at 2010-04-20 02:45:07 GMT from United States)
Oracle may prove to be a real detriment to open source:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/19/oracle_charges_for_odf_office_plugiin/
39 • Grub2 and Grub Legacy (by Dave at 2010-04-20 02:53:11 GMT from Canada)
I've developed some very basic chops with Grub2, but have had some unintelligible errors or garbled autodetected entries. Thought I'd run legacy grub on my MBR and chainload to my other distros, with their bootloader (grub2 for instance) installed to their root partition.
But I'd generally get errors chainloading from grub legacy to grub2 installed partitions. Until I read this document, which describes the /boot/grub/core.img workaround. Which works fine for me (so far).
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/grub-2.html
Your mileage may vary, but as grub2 and grub legacy was the order of the day, thought I'd pass it along.
40 • grub2...etc (by KevinC at 2010-04-20 03:46:39 GMT from United States)
Grub2 has been no real issue for me. I prefer legacy Grub, and I really don't understand the need for change for change's sake---as it appears. I think sometimes coders get bored and want to reinvent the wheel...idk...I have never seen a valid explanation why to go from legacy's fairly straightforward syntax/ config to the conflab we have now with 2---I mean config files are spattered all over the file system (hyperbole, for those that lack this gene).
On a more positive note, have been playing with 2 KDE distros that have actually making me more drawn to KDE 4.x (something I thought would not be possible). The new PCLinuxOS (2010) seem, w/ ltd. experience, to be rock solid. Kudos to Tex and co. for this one. Also, Sabyon 5.2 is pretty nice too...I installed then removed for Greenie (distrohopperitis). Found I kinda missed it and went back, Dig that Clementine is default over the mess that is Amarok 2,x. Guess I'll still have to keep Ubuntu or one of it's offspring around tho. Played around with Ubuntu One Music Store & tho I've been a big fan of Amazon's DRM-free catalog....well alternatives are nice. Installed the banshee plug-in earlier and the selection was rather good (IIRC, they're using 7-Digital's DRM-free catalog). If Canonical has any business sense at all, they'll allow Ubuntu One Music Store plug-ins for other distros. Service looks fairly promising and it'd be nice to purchase from and, thusly, help an OS backed project make a few $'s. Lord knows I've donated plenty to Amazon (tho kudos to Amazon for offering a Linux amazon mp3 dl'er that I have always whipped into working, on most of the distros I've tried and on 64-bit (gawd bless get-libs).
41 • RE: Linux DVD Authoring (by Anonymous at 2010-04-20 04:17:48 GMT from India)
@24(Linux DVD Authoring)
You could try DeVeDe and Kino for video editing. I have used them only a few times and they had worked for my needs.
42 • PCLinuxOS release announcements (by RollMeAway at 2010-04-20 05:25:26 GMT from United States)
Strikes me as strange.
Why doesn't pclinuxos announce each iso separately?
Announce the kde release, next day the gnome release, next day the e17 ...etc.
That would get more exposure than a single notice.
Seems to work for most other distros.
43 • #10; HelenOS and other uninteresting subjects (by x at 2010-04-20 06:32:13 GMT from United States)
Thank you for publishing the article on HelenOS. Without your article I may never have known of its' existence. Now I have the opportunity to explore and possibly contribute to something potentially worthwhile.
I feel it is important to explore different avenues. The perfect operating system has yet to be presented. Most new ideas may never amount to anything. This does not mean that they should be discounted or completely ignored. Occasionally something comes along that ends up making a major impact. Linux started out like this and Distrowatch itself has developed considerably since the static page I came across several years ago ('useless' was the opinion of one individual).
Unix itself was not exactly a blockbuster in the early years. I had a discussion with one of my professors, in the late seventies, about Unix. He seemed to feel that it was more important to understand IBM S/360 than to waste time with experimental operating systems and programming languages with unrealistic goals. Some people always miss the 'boat' by not keeping an open mind.
Thank you Jesse for the information and most of all Ladislav for even making this possible.
44 • still on antiX (by meanpt at 2010-04-20 08:15:38 GMT from Portugal)
Sorry folks, but it takes a life for AntiX move on anything from the nice and sounding desktop. My VBox runs in a bloated XP Pro machine with a pentium M 1.4 GHz mprocessor, with the virtual nachine stored in an external Lacie 500 GB external HD, running with 256 MB of ram and 8 GB virtual hard drive. The installed Slitaz, CrunchBang i686. Debian 5.0 Live CD, Knoppix live CD, PCLOSGnomeZenMini, to mention a few, they all perform reasonably well within this environment and way better than AntiX.
45 • still on antiX (by meanpt at 2010-04-20 08:18:59 GMT from Portugal)
Sorry folks, but it takes a life for AntiX move on anything from the nice and sounding desktop. My VBox runs in a bloated XP Pro machine with a pentium M 1.4 GHz mprocessor, with the virtual nachine stored in an external Lacie 500 GB external HD, running with 256 MB of ram and 8 GB virtual hard drive. The virtually installed Slitaz, CrunchBang i686. Debian 5.0.3LXDE CD, Knoppix live CD, PCLOSGnomeZenMini, to mention a few, they all perform reasonably well within this environment and way better than AntiX.
46 • VBox (by Burt at 2010-04-20 09:04:21 GMT from Netherlands)
Install to HD rather than a virtual environment, you'll then get a true reflection of how a distro performs.
47 • HelenOS small? (by greenpossum on 2010-04-20 09:15:33 GMT from Australia)
You say HelenOS is small because it runs in 64MB? I'd be more impressed if it ran in 6.4MB or even 64kB. Sure you didn't drop a decimal point somewhere or was 64MB the smallest VM that VirtualBox would let you make?
48 • #35 (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-20 10:20:54 GMT from Greece)
#35 so you don't use Opensuse or fedora for the same reason?
49 • HelenOS and questions (by Jesse on 2010-04-20 11:18:12 GMT from Canada)
In response to the question in comment 47:
Running with 64MB was as low as I went with VirtualBox. Which, when you think about it, reflects common consumer hardware specs from around twelve years ago. I'm fairly certain HelenOS would run with less memory, but I didn't see any reason to test that theory.
In the past few weeks I've received some e-mails asking where to submit questions for the QandA column or where to send suggestions for feature reviews. Please e-mail them to me (my address is posted at the end of DWW most weeks). If you want to see a topic/distro covered, let me know about it. Otherwise, I just review whatever catches my interest, which is great for me, but might be disappointing for some.
50 • DVD Authoring (by Michael Raugh on 2010-04-20 11:53:52 GMT from United States)
@24: Linux Journal (http://www.linuxjournal.com) recently posted an introduction to Bombono that might be worth a read.
-MR
51 • Oracle (by Michael Raugh on 2010-04-20 12:03:47 GMT from United States)
@38: Meh. Okay, so Oracle is charging a ridiculous amount of money for a closed-source plug-in to a closed-source app (MS Office) to enable it to properly support the dominant open format. The worst thing that does is fail to remove a barrier to adopting OpenOffice.org in enterprises. Sure, I'd rather see them continue Sun's policy of offering the plug-in for free, but this is hardly a knife in the back of open source.
-MR
52 • RE:44 Your install is flawed. (by Eddie Wilson on 2010-04-20 12:23:50 GMT from United States)
Sorry but maybe you have a bad install. I've never seen Antix have problems with 256 MB. It's my belief that it is impossible to determine if a distribution is good quality by running it in a VM but that's just my opinion. It seems you have a very unusual problem with Antix. Isn't it great that we have all these other choices.
53 • HelenOS memory (by greenpossum at 2010-04-20 12:46:37 GMT from Australia)
You really should have tried much less memory. Because IPCop (a Linux firewall distro) is very comfortable in 32MB and I have even run it with no issues in 16MB. People who run DD-WRT or openWRT run with very little memory. HelenOS does so little at the moment that I can't imagine it would need 64MB to run. Thus you failed to highlight one of the advantages of this fresh OS and that is the possibility of perhaps using it in some embedded application in future. IMO that's where the potential lies, not in recycling old PCs.
And to the person who couldn't get AntiX to run in 256MB. It's just you. Like many other people I have it running very nicely in 256MB, both in a VM and on real hardware. Perhaps your real OS doesn't have enough RAM? Are you using devoting more than 50% to VirtualBox? AntiX is quite impressive, well done, anticapitalista.
54 • Not to change the subject... (by Albert Hall at 2010-04-20 13:39:17 GMT from United States)
I appreciate hearing about HelenOS but it seems a little premature to do a piece on it considering the fact that you can't really download it, burn a cd, and boot it up. Oh well you can't please everbody all the time and obviously some readers were really into it.
I really just wanted to say thanks to whoever posted the information about INX last week. I am going to give it a try. Does anyone know if it is menu driven or more command line? From what I can gather from the website it looks like a bunch of menus. Thanks.
http://inx.maincontent.net/index.html
55 • PCLinuxOS 2010 (by Bryan Channell at 2010-04-20 17:28:13 GMT from United States)
If anyone is interested.. I just saw the official announcement about the release of PCLinuxOS 2010 over on there website... www.pclinuxos.com
56 • Shotwell looks very interesting! (by Luke at 2010-04-20 18:18:01 GMT from United States)
Very pleased Fedora is moving away from Mono, and I'd love to see more stuff like Shotwell written in Vala and Genie. I've tinkered with them a bit and they are very interesting languages! Looks like the Shotwell developers have several other Vala projects in the pipeline too.
57 • RE: 54 INX (by Alan UK at 2010-04-20 18:43:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm using it at the moment on another pc. It has menus that introduce and explain the command line, rather like a teach-yourself
course. There isn't any GUI. So far I've found it very interesting and
user friendly.
58 • mopslinux (by forlin at 2010-04-20 19:47:01 GMT from Portugal)
Well, that was really sad news, after all the work required to prepare a complete distro, just when it was made available, it ends :(
Now I understand why I was never able to finish my D/L, besides being moving from mirrors to mirrors.
I'll keep an eye on further developments.
59 • Re: #27 Amarok (by sly at 2010-04-20 20:25:53 GMT from United States)
Since I got no feedback from my query, I performed my own research as to why the latest version of Amarok did not include the Shoutcast service. Apparently there was conflict between the two and Shoutcast was dropped. Amarok seems to taken another step backwards in it's latest version by not including as many options for users to configure the app's appearance, etc.
Exaile, which is a similar media app, does offer the Shoutcast service, but is is not quite as polished......yet.
Sourceforge offers enhanced versions of Amarok, but I haven't had time to check them out.
60 • @42 (by Crow on 2010-04-20 20:26:07 GMT from Mexico)
We all want to know :-) The good news is all versions of PCLinuxOS 2010 are ready to download.
This is the official announcement http://pclinuxos.com/?p=579
Really good.
61 • PCLinuxOS (by Michael Raugh on 2010-04-20 21:49:30 GMT from United States)
No links for a 64-bit version? Disappointing.
-MR
62 • #24: DVD creator (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-20 22:12:39 GMT from United States)
@Nate: Check out DeVeDe. It's easy to use, very customizable and generally does a great job. See: http://www.rastersoft.com/programas/devede.html
63 • #61 So it seems (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-20 22:21:39 GMT from United States)
@Michael: Agreed. The whole reason I finally gave up on VectorLinux and migrated to SalixOS was the inability of the VectorLinux team to get out a 64-bit version. The move away from a Slackware base to built from scratch also worries me somewhat. Why would a small team like that want to reinvent the wheel?
64 • @61 (by Crow on 2010-04-21 00:16:27 GMT from Mexico)
Five versions from a small team and you are dissapointed? you're hard to please :-) give it a try (I did), they are really good. Anyway, I understand that 64-bit is the next stop.
65 • Antix performance (by 1369ic on 2010-04-21 00:25:05 GMT from United States)
I know I"m late to this party, but I had a very nice install of AntiX on my Sony laptop. I had been running Slackware 13 on a home-rolled kernel, tried Mint with Fluxbox and then AntiX, then back to Slackware (hey, I had some free time). AntiX seems just as fast as Slackware and has, as was noted, those nice Mepis tools. It was noticeably faster than Mint. Of course, I don't have a RAM-starved machine, and I did a regular install, not a VM install. I'm back with Slack because I find the whole IceApe thing annoying, even though installing Firefox and Chrome was pretty easy.
66 • PCLinux 2010 review (by KevinC at 2010-04-21 01:49:33 GMT from United States)
Jim Lynch has already reviewed it:
http://desktoplinuxreviews.com/2010/04/20/pclinuxos-2010-kde/
Not the most in depth reviews, but his stuff is good for some light reading.
67 • Peppermint (by Kendall Weaver on 2010-04-21 05:05:34 GMT from United States)
@post#32 re: Bert
The reasons are actually very simple:
Based on the way desktop computing seems to be heading, there are exactly two fronts in the Linux market: those who seem to be set on offering a desktop OS, and those who seem to be set on offering a cloud OS. Simply put there's not a lot of translation in the middle. There's not a lot of room to pick and choose the best of both worlds, at least not within the comfort of an environment that really makes sense to most of the people operating computers at this point in time. What Peppermint is, is an attempt at that middle ground, a strike at the very heart of that which tries to separate desktop computing from cloud computing in the modern Linux world.
With Peppermint, we're not trying to change the world, but we are suggesting a reasonable way to go about the transition from one world to another. What most "cloud oriented" distros seem to forget is that there is a plethora of magnificent software that is only available for local installs, and it very much seems that most "desktop oriented" distros seem to forget that there is a plethora of fantastic web apps that can handle a lot of the needs of an every day user. What happens when someone starts to blur the lines between the desktop and the cloud, but not in a dramatic way that might be uncomfortable to a lot of users who still demand a "desktop"? I really don't know, but I'm willing to find out.
I will be continuing development with Linux Mint and I will continue to build both the Fluxbox and LXDE editions. I honestly have no plans to stop doing so. Working with Mint is one of the better situations I've ever found myself in. The bigger point here is that what Mint is doing is something almost completely outside of what Peppermint is doing. Mint gives you almost everything, while Peppermint gives you the cloud and the option to step into the world of local apps should you so choose.
Kendall Weaver
68 • 64 bit OS (by Anonymous at 2010-04-21 05:46:38 GMT from United States)
I think it is pretty much true that unless you are doing something that involves a lot of data or a lot of computation that just happens to require a lot of memory, you don't need a 64 bit OS. These days, pretty much anyone working with science will do well to have access to at least one 64 bit system. The number of bits can either speed up or slow down certain computations, but typically not much either way.
69 • Re: 67 (by jake at 2010-04-21 06:28:48 GMT from United States)
"Based on the way desktop computing seems to be heading,"
You seem to be confused about the meaning of "desktop" ...
"there are exactly two fronts in the Linux market: those who seem to be set on offering a desktop OS,
That word "exactly", I don't think it means what you think it means ... desktop, server, firewall, rescue, demo, live, kiosk, what have you.
"and those who seem to be set on offering a cloud OS."
"Cloud" is a marketing meme. And a bad one. It means "centralized computing". We've had it for around six decades. It's nothing new. And it's not "desktop".
70 • 64 bits (by Michael Raugh on 2010-04-21 13:44:42 GMT from United States)
What I'm finding with my own systems is that using a 64-bit OS makes a big positive difference in the performance of virtual machines hosted on the box, in performance for apps that encode video, and (to a lesser extent) in the general responsiveness of the desktop when I have a lot of apps open (ie, 7 or 8 PDF files open in viewers, a VM running, 2-3 OpenOffice documents, a few browser windows and a terminal session or two). From that I tend to draw the conclusion that the more you stress the box in terms of memory management and CPU demand the more you want a 64-bit OS.
I still run 32-bit Ubuntu on my laptop and it serves me fine, but I don't work that machine nearly as hard as my "Distro Odyssey" desktop (currently on 64-bit sidux). Food for thought.
-MR
71 • @35 (by Carl at 2010-04-21 17:41:57 GMT from Spain)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
72 • RE: 64 Bit and Cloud (by Eddie Wilson on 2010-04-21 19:01:16 GMT from United States)
@Crow, 5 versions with different desktop managers is what you have. Don't listen to the 32bit is as good as 64bit FUD. Unless they come out with a 64bit very soon they will be left in the dust. Most ...small teams... have already come out with 64bit versions.
@Jake, I'm afraid that you are a little confused on the term "Cloud Computing". It is not the same as what you've seen for six decades. I do believe that it is a desktop system. Why don't you?
73 • re: 72 (by jake at 2010-04-21 19:26:45 GMT from United States)
"I do believe that it is a desktop system. Why don't you?"
In what marketing is calling "cloud computing", the processing & storage of data is out of the direct control of the enduser. That is centralized (mainframe, hosted, whatever) computing no matter how you look at it. Personally, I'd rather maintain control of my own systems and not pass that control to the likes of Google, Apple, Microsoft and other multinational billion dollar data mining corporations.
Next thing you know, they'll want us to submit batch jobs for overnight processing ...
74 • What "customerised" segments are there? (by meanpt at 2010-04-21 20:48:20 GMT from Portugal)
I'm talking about preferences and choices.
The use of desktop virtual machines suites me in almost everything, namely in the perspective of portability, virus containing, disaster recovery and continuity.
When firing up a linux I don't need encryption, dns servers, com's servers, samba or any other exotic name like Apache, or any other fashioned server you can think of or being offered in these days.
All I need is the old paradigm: a fast processing machine requiring low RAM but being able to run the today's increasingly common high RAM demanding applications. I do require a good graphical support for running applications but do not need fancy 3D desktops.
It's a nonsense trying to tweak my Windows OS's including the elimination of all the graphical effects (in fact, I'm a huge fan of working in security mode), while at the same time changing to a Linux Distro which brings me the same bloating problem.
What fits me are, as a mean, the 256 MB, with a rare cap of 480 MB, virtual machines and the distros that run happily within it.
In these days everyone makes available some sort of "live" and "light" versions to "run on older machines" or in the "older" less resourceful machines. In the end, with some but really sparse exceptions, they all take the same time to start a web browser, and the same laziness to load a youtube video. This is what I call "fake lightness".
In these days that phones and laptops will merge somewhere and somehow, I'm not seeing any "light" from the distro's developers paving the way for the merged "lightness". Well, I do see some in the called minimal and medium distros.
75 • PCLunixOS Where's vi (by RB at 2010-04-21 21:35:11 GMT from United States)
sudo find . -name vi
produced nothing!
In Ubuntu it was found here:
$ sudo find / -name vi
/var/lib/dpkg/alternatives/vi
/usr/bin/vi
/usr/lib/openoffice/basis3.2/share/template/wizard/letter/vi
/etc/alternatives/vi
WTF!
Although PCLinuxOS was pretty and KDE booted up fast enough, it appears its missing standard linux commands AND OpenOffice wasn't even installed. Very sad for an ISO that's the size of Ubuntu that included everything. Quite disappointing.
Not going to their forum either. Don't need the rude comments!
76 • ref #75 (by RB at 2010-04-21 21:37:46 GMT from United States)
TYPO ERROR:
That was sudo find / -name vi
77 • re: 75&76 (by jake at 2010-04-21 23:20:16 GMT from United States)
I haven't got around to looking at PCLinuxOS, so treat this as a WAG, but try looking for vim or elvis in /usr/bin ...
78 • 75,76,77 RE: vi (by Jesse at 2010-04-21 23:38:37 GMT from Canada)
The post in 75 is correct, PCLinuxOS doesn't come equipped with vi, vim or elvis out of the box. For people who want it, vim is in the repository.
79 • @74 (by fernbap at 2010-04-21 23:58:09 GMT from Portugal)
I would recomend Mint 8 LXDE, it boots into a fully functional desktop using 147MB RAM only.
Very fast and responsible. installed on a AMD Duron 1200 with 512MB RAM, works perfectly and keeps its responsiveness.
Btw, PCLinuxOS 2010 LXDE uses around 170MB, although i found it not as fast amd Mint.
80 • re: 78 (by jake at 2010-04-22 00:35:57 GMT from United States)
PCLinuxOS doesn't come with a variation of vi? Someone might want to tell the devs that vi is THE un*x text editor ... Admining a system without vi is painful ... hell, I even have a login on most of my machines that uses vi as the shell prompt!
At least now I know I don't need to waste bandwidth downloading the ISO (At my age, I don't have the time to figure out where else they've deviated from the standard). Thanks, Jesse :-)
81 • vi (by Anonymous at 2010-04-22 02:47:15 GMT from United States)
The new Linux user these days have no need for such an arcane tool.
82 • PCLinux and vi... (by KevinC at 2010-04-22 03:25:37 GMT from United States)
IDK if anyone has checked but does Mandriva have vi, vim or elvis oob? PCLinux is based on Mandriva, so it may be, simply, that this was passed down from the parent. I've been playing with PCLinux 2010 since the beta and find it rather nifty. It's been stable as hell, and I'm actually starting to like KDE 4. I change the main menu in the panel from classic to Lancelot, install Chromium, OOO, and Clementine and I'm pretty much good. And I'm no fanboi of PCLinux. I didn't much care for the '09 release and only used '07 in passing.
83 • RE #74 Mint 8 LXDE (by Anonymous at 2010-04-22 03:48:23 GMT from United States)
A few weeks ago I wrote here about my struggle with Mint 8 LXDE. Yes it will run with 147mb. The problem is the bloated installer, it needs more than 256mb to run the installer even if you go in with the install option on the boot menu. It really needs text based or more efficient screens. From what I can tell the screens could be simplified and who needs a map of the world to find your time zone and see how the automatic partitioning is going to trash your system and switch to manual partition mode (which is text based sort of). I ended up going with GoblinX and a Puppy unleashed dual boot on that box. It was a K6-2 (i586) 350mhz with 192mb memory and a 6gb HD.
84 • @81 (by jake at 2010-04-22 04:29:16 GMT from United States)
"The new Linux user these days have no need for such an arcane tool."
Until their GUI won't start. Unless you are advocating they format & reinstall. How Redmondian.
Or unless you need to dial (POTS) into your Mom's system to figure out why her DSL link is no longer fuctional. I could go on, I'll spare everybody.
Basic troubleshooting tools are, to coin a phrase, basic. The other day, I was staggered when a newly minted "automotive technician" told me that he didn't know how to set spark timing or adjust a carb because "it's irrelevant with modern automobiles". Needless to say, I advised my neighbor to find a new shop to take her '69 Mustang to for it's 4-times yearly checkup, tuneup & fluids & filters change ...
85 • RE @83 (by fernbap at 2010-04-22 04:43:47 GMT from Portugal)
Yes, i know that Mint uses the Ubuntu installer that requires 512MB to run.
But in this case RAM is not the issue, the issue is performance. The issue is running powerful apps without wasting resources in a bloated desktop.
Automatic partitioning trashes your system? I would like to hear more of that.
86 • @72 (by Crow on 2010-04-22 05:58:30 GMT from Mexico)
32 Bit is enough for my hardware and my needs, probably there are others who need something more powerful, not me, maybe in a couple of years...
What I really needed three years ago was a stable OS that I could use for my daily work and someone willing to help (and explain almost using apples) without trying to put me down and I found that in PCLinuxOS and the excellent forums, in other places the posts never were answered or people used a strange language which I didn't understand.
Just my experience
87 • Grub hiding FTW (by DrCR at 2010-04-22 07:56:22 GMT from United States)
", so anybody who spends time installing multiple distributions on the same hard disk "
^I'm definitely in that category. Wonder if grub hiding is still possible. Time to do some research...
88 • news - open source cost reductions around the world (by Forlin at 2010-04-22 09:27:39 GMT from Portugal)
Yesterday, in the Portuguese Parliament, the opposition leader urged government to order the mandatory utilization of open-source software, at all public services, in order to achieve an estimated cut-cost of around 40 million Euros.
http://www.siconline.pt/online/noticias/dinheiro/PSD+propoe+reduzir+despesa+em+1700+milhoes+Governo+fala+em+mao+cheia+de+nada.htm
...O lÃder parlamentar do PSD propôs ainda "a obrigação de utilização de 'open software' em todos os serviços do Estado..."
89 • PCLOS (by Chico at 2010-04-22 12:16:29 GMT from United States)
I am using PCLOS KDE and it is very nice. I just switched from Mint. Yes you have to click on a button to install Office, how hard is that? KDE is beautifully implemented with intelligence. I was also really impressed with the Firewall setup which is the easiest I have ever seen. This one's a keeper.
#75 vi? Are you serious? You know you can also set up most distros with no gui/window manager and you can just use the command line to your heart's content.
90 • (humor) OMG they killed vi (by Carman at 2010-04-22 12:36:03 GMT from United States)
Those b@stards!
91 • RE: 75 PCLunixOS Where's vi (by ladislav on 2010-04-22 12:48:33 GMT from Taiwan)
I have to say I sympathise with BR. Every time I run a distro and I find that it doesn't havge vi or vim installed by default, I instinctively dislike it. I remember complaining about this to Fabio from Sabayon, which came on a huge DVD, but it still didn't have vim. Luckily, he promised to put it in in the next release and he kept his word.
But it seems that those of us who absolutely need vim for effective computing are very much in minority here...
92 • PCLinuxOS's default editor (by lynx on 2010-04-22 12:57:08 GMT from Greece)
PCLinuxOS's default editor is Emacs. Who needs vi ?
(No, it is not. Only nano is installed by default and imho is more than enough)
93 • Emacs? (by jake on 2010-04-22 13:13:30 GMT from United States)
Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping ...
Next week: Stay tuned for a short primer on the C/C++ wars! :-)
94 • #75, 78, 80, 81, 91: vi (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-22 16:53:01 GMT from United States)
I'm with RB, Jesse and Ladislav on this one. vi is an essential tool. Once upon a time not all that long ago vi was the one thing you could count on finding on any UNIX or Linux system. It was the one constant -- a standard in text editing. It's always there if you need to recover a system with significant problems, which generally means no X.
Arcane? Yes, certainly. It's also faster and more efficient than the GUI alternatives a whole lot of the time and uses minimal system resources while offering an extremely powerful editor.
The whole point of creating Linux was to have a free, powerful UNIX-like operating system. Take away vi and what goes next? Grep? Awk? Sure, you can use Linux like Windows or MacOS nowadays but don't take away what Linux always was and is meant to be under the hood.
Oh, and yes, I'm relatively old and I was administering UNIX professionally before I adopted Linux as my primary operating system.
95 • RE: 75 - Top editors in Debian's Popularity Contest (by Veritas on 2010-04-22 17:12:46 GMT from United States)
Here are data from Debian's "popularity contest" tracking who installs and, more importantly, actually uses specific packages:
Installed Uses
ed 90,177 16,040
nano 87,319 20,468
vim-tiny 84,404 16,099
vim 29,599 13,960
emacs 8,092 252
Check it out at:
http://popcon.debian.org/main/editors/by_inst
96 • Ref#80 Jake's comment regarding VI (by RB on 2010-04-22 18:00:30 GMT from United States)
Funny how one seemingly small tool like VI can have such an effect on REAL Unix/Lunix/BSD users, but it has.
I wasted my bandwidth downloading PCLinuxOS!
VI is the editor. nano is some hacked editor-at-large.
Here's my reasoning. If Texstar or whoever decided to remove VI, then that's a telling story in itself. Their not REAL Unix/Linis/BSD users. They come from Windows or some other area.
I want no part of a distro that removes or doesn not include VI. Simple as that!
97 • vi/vim & @93 :) (by Landor on 2010-04-22 18:06:29 GMT from Canada)
It's ok. I understand all of you being upset it's not in PCLOS. I know the lot of you secretly use vim in emac-mode..........whistles
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
98 • RE: 96 and anyone else. (by Landor on 2010-04-22 18:21:16 GMT from Canada)
Are you all seriously surprised it's not there? Honestly? Tons hold Bill Reynolds and "The Ripper Gang" as these great and all knowing Gods of Linux. Most of them of course are n00bs and we've seen how extreme they are with their insert new "favourite flavour " of distribution this week.
A commenter (dbrion) from a few years ago that I miss pointed out a similar problem that might make him smile if he reads this (since he was banned and I don't believe Ladislav lifted it, or will). Bill Reynolds (Texstar) and the vaunted Ripper Gang took a distribution that had multi-language support (which was flawless btw) and removed it all. A step back right? Now? Well, hey! They're adding the ability to have more languages again..lol
These guys in my opinion don't know s&#t from shineola.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
99 • vi (by Carman on 2010-04-22 18:30:44 GMT from United States)
Do you know how easy it is to fire up the package manager and install it if you really really need it? You can even do it from the LiveCD. Did you know that not a single person mentioned vi during the entire beta testing stages. Apparently it isn't needed as much as a few of you think.
100 • RE: 99 (by Landor on 2010-04-22 18:34:29 GMT from Canada)
"Did you know that not a single person mentioned vi during the entire beta testing stages."
I think that pretty well fits with RB's point at 96. Thank you for the confirmation on it.
(disclaimer: I don't even use vi, bet ya can easily guess which one though! lol)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
101 • #98 If you miss dbrion... (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-22 18:39:54 GMT from United States)
@Landor: If you miss dbrion he comments often and at length whenever I publish on O'Reilly :) I don't always agree with him but his comments tend to be interesting and on-topic.
102 • RE: vi (by Jesse on 2010-04-22 18:40:41 GMT from Canada)
I'm not a die-hard vi fan, but I do think Ms Martin has a point. The vi editor is one of those things a UNIX/Linux person just expects to find on a system. It's a bit like using "top" or "ls", when in doubt the sysadmin is likely to fall back on vi.
Sure, if you have a network connection, you can install it via the package manager. So it's not likely an PCLinuxOS users are going to notice the difference.
103 • vi whiners. (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-22 20:03:09 GMT from Greece)
IMO if someone has an issue with any distro just because it doesn't come with vi installed, then maybe they should go for a walk more often in the fresh air.
You can still do your command line editing in PCLOS (and other vi-free distros) if you get dumped into X.
104 • vi and the slide rule (by RollMeAway on 2010-04-22 20:45:21 GMT from United States)
I put vi in the same category as the slide rule.
Both were great in their day.
Both belong in a museum now.
Any one wanna buy a good slide rule?
105 • RE: 101/104 (by Landor on 2010-04-22 21:26:51 GMT from Canada)
#101
I looked through the 2009/10 posts and didn't see any of his comments. I didn't look at them all though of course, just skimmed them randomly.
#104
That's like telling a carpenter a pencil is a waste of his time.
I know a ton of programmers as well as people building websites that do it solely in vi or emacs, they swear by one or the other. They have good reason to as well.
That's not even beginning to touch on how extensible both of them are. Just a point here, and I don't mind using nano sometimes, but when's the last time you saw a plugin to use nano for twitter? That alone shows just how more important in our community and how non-archaic both of them really are compared to other editors.
Maybe it's time to pull that slide rule out, wipe off the dust and see just how relevant it is today. You might be surprised. :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
106 • What's wrong with sliderules? (by jake on 2010-04-22 21:30:26 GMT from United States)
I still use the Sun slipstick that got me thru' Engineering school. It was my Fathers, and got him thru' Engineering school. My daughter knows how to use it, but politely declined when she got her Engineering degree.
What do I use it for? Back-of-the-envelope calculations, mostly. Fencing needs (wire & wood), amount of roofing materials, loads on beams, figuring out how much DG+8%cement to order to re-line the stall floors in a barn, gravel, rock, road-base, asphalt & concrete needs, paint/stain requirements, quantity of soil amendments needed, that kind of thing. Oh, and the two circular versions in the airplanes help me get across country.
vi is NOT a necessity, true. But kinda like the roses at the edge of a vinyard not growing properly, when it's misssing, it's an indicator that something may be horribly wrong ... if vi is missing from a distribution, what else is missing? I've got over a third of a century using un*x, vi has been around nearly all that time. In that time frame certain things have become part of the culture. Leaving parts of that culture behind for no good reason suggests to me that the authors of any given distro don't have as deep an understanding as they would have you believe ... and I, for one, choose not to play around with said distros. As always, YMMV. As PV puts it "Have fun! :-)"
107 • @104 (by Anonymous on 2010-04-22 21:33:49 GMT from United States)
If you can you throw in some obsoleted man pages, you got yourself a deal on the slide rule.
108 • #106 what else is missing? (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-22 22:02:13 GMT from Greece)
Maybe a bit of sense of proportion.
If you want vi and you have a third of a century using it, you also know how to get it and also know why some distros don't (want to or choose not to) include it.
You also know that there is nothing 'horribly wrong' just because it isn't included.
Lots of hyperbole about nothing IMO.
So, back to antiX :)
109 • Every systems administrator worth their salt... (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-22 22:24:18 GMT from United States)
Every professional systems administrator I know of is proficient with vi, emacs or both. Take a look at UNIX and Linux systems administrator position listings on DICE or other tech job boards. vi is listed as a required skill quite often. Sneer at it, call it "obsolete" or "archaic" or say that it belongs in a museum all you want. If your entire goal for computing is to be a hobbyist or a non-technical user then of course you don't truly need vi. If you have any pretensions of being a professional then you most certainly do. Oh, and many companies and organizations don't install X on a wide variety of servers that simply don't need it. It's more secure without.
Do I use graphical editors? Sure! I like bluefish for web development and medit for programming. I still wouldn't want a system without vi.
110 • vi (by Andy Axnot on 2010-04-22 23:44:49 GMT from United States)
What's the learning curve like for vi?
Most PCLinuxOS users are not "professional systems administrators". vi is just fine for crusty old admins who have been around since before slide rules (some since before logarithms), and may even be a necessity for them.
For the rest of us, we'd rather not waste all that time learning something we don't ever intend to use. There's always nano. You don't have to "learn" it, it comes with cheat sheets. :-)
Texstar restricted himself to a 700 MB CDR for the live CD. Some things just wouldn't fit. Such is life.
How many "professional systems administrators" want to run PCLOS anyway?
Andy
111 • #89 (by Chico on 2010-04-22 23:58:50 GMT from United States)
I take back the vi comment. I really just meant to say that I really like PCLINUXOS. It is good for me. That´s all.
112 • MiniMe is fun (by Anonymous on 2010-04-23 00:57:07 GMT from United States)
I installed PCLOS MiniMe. Then I put in all the applications I use. After that I typed mylivecd --lzma mycd.iso and burned it a cdr. Now I have my own personal cd which I can use to install on my other computers and also keep as a back up in the event I need to ever re-install. Sweet!
113 • Learning curve? & Re: 111 (by jake on 2010-04-23 01:38:10 GMT from United States)
"What's the learning curve like for vi?"
I have a tutorial that I wrote 25 years ago. Using it, most folks can learn the basics in under an hour, if they apply themselves. If I manage to find the time to update it[1], I'll submit it for publication & you can all point & laugh at me if Ladislav chooses to publish it :-) [2]
Chico, no need to take back anything, IMO. Use the OS that works for you. There are plenty to choose from, which is a good thing.
[1] Anyone who has been a sysadmin for more than a couple weeks knows that Copious Free Time is rarer than hen's teeth ...
[2] My A-level English teacher would strangle me for that sentence ... but I've got food on the grill, no time to reconstruct it.
114 • VI, :EX, regex (by RB on 2010-04-23 02:07:24 GMT from United States)
Those that say the obvious regarding the missing VI, are themselves missing the point. Sure you can install it. that's the obvious point.
The point your missing is, what else gets cut out on the next release. Someone already pointed out, AWK, grep, maybe even a little cat.
Thinking VI falls into the slide-rule category shows your ignorance! Have you ever heard of regular expressions. How about the accompanying EX that goes along with VI. If you don't know VI you surely don't and can't appreciate regex, which is used by a ton of lesser know Unix/Linux commands.
115 • Re: 113 -- vi Tutorial (by DrCR on 2010-04-23 02:41:30 GMT from United States)
Jake, would love to see you publish that tutorial!
I learned vi...but then got into vb.net development for a little while and forgot a *lot* of *nix stuff. I need a good refresher.
116 • Vi is a deal breaker? (by Joble on 2010-04-23 03:07:08 GMT from United States)
Vi is Unix, so... Is Unix Linux? Plenty to see in a google search about that discussion. nano works for me as well as vi. It's a distro, if you don't like it, don't use it. I (for one) don't care either way. vi is an old lady, and her boobs are sagging.
117 • Ouch. (by Joble on 2010-04-23 03:38:01 GMT from United States)
I'm an old man, and my manboobs are sagging too. This was not meant in any way to be discriminatory against old folks. I am. Old that is.
118 • VI (by Geeeeez Luweeeeez on 2010-04-23 05:49:07 GMT from United States)
This "vi discussion" sounds just as ridiculous as the Ubuntu color change and button whining "discussions" from a couple of weeks ago.
Use a distro that has your precious VI.
FTR, I don't use PCLOS.
Geeeeez Luweeeeez
119 • vi, vim, and slide rules (by Woodstock69 on 2010-04-23 06:06:44 GMT from Papua New Guinea)
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about because I don't use vi, its derivatives or emacs. I'd be interested to know why it's so powerful and useful to the sysadmin. Not too much detail, but enough practical examples to convince me it's better than nano, kate, etc for the task at hand.
What I do not like to be left out of any distro is Openoffice.org or it's equivalent. Easy to download it? Well if you don't have an internet connection at home, it's impossible.
SimplyMEPIS 8.5 has a progressively evolving framework called OnTheGo. Great idea. Install Linux to a flash stick, carry your desktop environment anywhere on any computer and have the ability to sync with your primary desktop. That's great. But it didn't work for me because I couldn't write back to the flash drive.
I could do it all manually, but I'm lazy and I bought a computer because the salesman and the world promised me 30 years ago, it could do wonderful things and save me hours of time. I've since learned that was a lie but once in a while a gem appears....
Another thing that drives me crazy is AptonCD. Why Oh Why, does it take so much HD space to write to a CD/DVD and why doesn't Synaptic and aptoncd allow me to use a flash drive instead of a disc ?!
As I said, I don't have internet at home so have to download everything on my work laptop then write an apt compatible repo to a DVD, then I can update my desktop because apt doesn't read from a simple directory full of updates. Very frustrating.
Good to hear from Caitlyn again, thought she must have been hibernating or something......
And what's "StressLinux" ?! If you've been here for any length of time and tried any of the plethra of available linux, you'll get your dose of stress without having a specific distro !! ;^)
BTW - Here's a link to a sliderule tutorial for those too young to know - http://members.shaw.ca/quadibloc/math/slrint.htm
120 • Vi, nano, geekdom and snobbery. (by davecs on 2010-04-23 09:20:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
PCLinuxOS makes Linux accessible for non-geek users. Old arguments about vi vs emacs are completely irrelevant to most people who will want to use PCLinuxOS. If someone gets dumped to a command line on bootup, then they would either have to try another distro that works better with their hardware, or contact the site to see if there is a fix or workaround. If it is a case of having to edit a file, nano is much easier to use in my opinion, far easier to explain from a web page to someone who has never done it before.
And by the way, I used to use Gentoo a few years back, and that used nano, too!
Snobbery about programs like vi and so on, are the sort of things that put people off, have them running back into the arms of Microsoft. I just had to install a dual boot from scratch, Windows XP then PCLinuxOS on my Samsung NC10 netbook. Guess which was hardest to install? Guess which is easier to set up and run? Linux wins both times.
So if you want Linux to be adopted by more and more people, cut the snobbery.
121 • Vi and The Holy Grail (by Landor on 2010-04-23 10:09:50 GMT from Canada)
Nano's gonna help Linux get adopted by the masses? You didn't say that but might as well have..lol
Who says anyone wants Linux to get adopted by the masses? I sure as hell don't. Seriously. You don't like snobbery? I can't stand the fanbois for the most part, nor can I stand the whinin' little noobs that scream foul any time someone who knows a little more than them speaks up. Nor can I stand it when all these people humpin' the crap out of a kiddie distro pops in and thinks just because they've had the honour of going through a 5 minute point and click mindless effort called an install, they are all of a sudden the "New Linux User" and their say is far more important that anyone else's because they're the tomorrow of Linux, give me a break. Seriously.
I'm sure Linus didn't see it that way when he created the kernel. How about PV from Slackware, the oldest surviving distribution. I know he makes his bread and butter from it, but from what I understand he couldn't care less if people used the system he creates for himself. Then there's Gentoo, well, Gentoo's so easy a 13 year old kid could follow the directions on how to run and install it, and has, my son. As long as something's not messed up with it this week or last that is. Big deal their guide uses nano..lol
Figure something out people, you're less than 2% of the overall desktop users. The MAJORITY in Linux are exactly the people who would and do use Vi/Vim and Emacs. So in essence you're as insignificant as an amoeba on the nads of life.
Oh, the reason I won't use PCLOS? I would never use a distribution where the group calls themselves "The Ripper Gang", that has to be the gayest thing I've ever heard of in Linux, period. Wait, didn't "The Ripper Gang" break up? What's it now, "The gNew Ripper Gang"? lol
Snobbery my ass.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
122 • RE: 121 an addition (by Landor on 2010-04-23 10:16:26 GMT from Canada)
Just to make it clear, I would have never even dreamed of using Linux for any period of time if the kernel devs were known as Linus Torvalds and The Kernel Koolies" lol!
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
123 • RE: 121 (by Vinze on 2010-04-23 11:38:25 GMT from Netherlands)
Landor,
I always thought that you were an intelligent person but this response does show ontherwise.
124 • #121 (by Carlos R. on 2010-04-23 12:18:00 GMT from United States)
I also have to take issue with this soaring snobbery. I have seen this kind of person in many forums and they are the worst kind of annoying most of the time. They ramble on and on about the lofty purpose of Linux that only they and a small elite group hard-core hackers understand. I suspect that Linus T. would be bored senseless after five minutes of listening to this rambling nonsense. I have heard that he constantly is accosted by these bores and actually has to use a fake name to avoid them. I guess it takes all kinds and to be fair, Landor occasionally offers a bit of useful information, occasionally...rarely actually.
125 • vi (by Re: 119, Woodstock on 2010-04-23 12:45:59 GMT from United States)
With all due respect, instead of typing up a lengthy post including asking to be convinced, why not do some google searching? Or may even (shock) get a book on it?
Just a thought :)
126 • Vi and APTonCD (by Jesse on 2010-04-23 12:51:47 GMT from Canada)
RE: 119
I don't think it's a matter of vi being better for a given task than another editor. While some people swear by it, I don't think it's better or worse than nano or kate or gedit. It is, after all, just a text editor and people will use their preference. The reason I like having it pre-installed on the system is vi has become a sort of standard. So if the system doesn't load X or can't reach the network and you have to trouble-shoot, a sysadmin will often fall-back on vi. It's almost always installed on UNIX/Linux machines and you'll see it mentioned in text books a fair amount. Taking an example from an above post, vi is like the sliderule. When your GUI stops working, it's nice to have a reliable tool on hand.
Most end users aren't going to use "grep" either, but it's one of those things you expect to find on a UNIX system. I'm not going to turn away from a distro that doesn't include it by default, but I will wonder about their rational.
As for APTonCD, if you want to save your packages to a USB stick, APTonCD will let you create an iso file without writing it to a disc. You can then move your iso file to any location you like, including your USB drive.
127 • @ 125 vi (by Andy Axnot on 2010-04-23 13:04:50 GMT from United States)
With all due respect, I don't think your point is valid. I am constantly approached by people who have a message or cause they want me to adopt or investigate. It might be a new philosophy, religion, OS, program, editor, whatever. These people assure me that if I attend a session, meeting, buy the book, whatever, I will see the light and be convinced.
Maybe, but I doubt it and I don't have enough time in this life to investigate every new wrinkle in the universe. In the case of vi, I don't have to. I know it's an excellent, though difficult editor. I've overheard some of the vi vs emacs arguments, too.
I just don't need it, that's all. If I needed it I would learn it. No disrespect intended to the editor or its many users. It just isn't something absolutely crucial to me or a distro such as PCLinuxOS. YMMV.
Andy
128 • vi (by pfb on 2010-04-23 14:20:04 GMT from United States)
Thank you for the discussion on vi. I have used it a number of times, though never willingly. And I always wondered how such program had survived into the 21st century. Now, I think I understand.
129 • Virtual User here (by Crow on 2010-04-23 15:29:27 GMT from Mexico)
"Here's my reasoning. If Texstar or whoever decided to remove VI, then that's a telling story in itself. Their not REAL Unix/Linis/BSD users. They come from Windows or some other area."
Hey I just discovered that I'm a virtual user :-)
I'm surprised about all this vi thing, I'm not a programmer, for some of us Linux is a tool to work in other areas and PCLinuxOS is stable and easy to use. If I were a programmer surely I knew how to download vi.
I use to had a remastered DVD with PCLinuxOS with all the things I need (just in case), I used it one time when my HD failed, in three years I only reinstalled to get the new version from 0 (which at least 1 occasion wasn't needed)
And finally a big YES many of us, new Linux users come from Windows and DOS is that a bad thing? is our blood polluted? come on.
130 • Re: 128 - Spot On, pfb! (by davecs on 2010-04-23 16:01:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
pfb you are so right.
I cannot understand the sheer level of pomposity required to state, without giving any practical reasons, that one particular text editor is so wonderful.
Snobbery against a simple, practical, text-screen-level text editor on the grounds that it does not confound the uninitiated, or send n00bs running for cover, divides us into two camps.
The one that says "I use Linux because I'm cleverer and better than you".
The one that says "I use Linux because it's simple to install, easy to maintain, resists online nasties, and does all the tasks I need doing".
I'm in the second camp.
131 • snobbery nonsense. (by RB on 2010-04-23 16:32:59 GMT from United States)
It amazes me you call wanting VI snobbery?
Snobbery, has nothing to do with it.
Some of you people just don't get it. Fortunately, there are a few here that do.
VI is as much of the Linux tool-chain as , cp , ls, cat, grep, awk, etc.
Yo remove it is pure nonsense. How much CD disk space did Textstar gain by removing it?
Did you get the regex part I mentioned above? How well does nano handle regex expressions?!
Those that are opposing this view have very little concept of system administration and what it curtails.
132 • @ 131 (by Andy Axnot on 2010-04-23 17:10:12 GMT from United States)
RB, what does system administration curtail? Common sense? :-)
I think you meant to say "entails".
But you have a good point, many of us don't really appreciate what professional system administration entails. Because we are home desktop user types. We want to use Linux, too.
Maybe that's a point *you* should consider.
But to each his/her own. We should move on, we've spent a lot of time and bandwidth on something fairly trivial. At least to most of us. If a particular distro doesn't meet your needs, use another one.
Don't worry, be happy! :-)
Andy
133 • VI (by fernbap on 2010-04-23 17:39:12 GMT from Portugal)
I understand the point of those that feel outraged about VI being excluded.
During the DOS era, there was Edlin. Most DOS users didn't even know it was there, but it was part of dos as much as format.com.
If you had to administer a DOS installation, you would better know how to use edlin, because it was always there to be used. If you didn't know how to create a batch file with edlin, you wouldn't be called a DOS administrator.
If you bought a DOS manual, edlin was there.
At that time, all the *nix systems had VI. If you were a *nix administrator, you used VI for the same reason, because it was PART od the OS, such as Edlin was part of DOS.
In the windows era, there is Notepad. It is always there, it is part of windows, and it proved its worth many, many times.
If you buy a *nix manual today, VI is still there.
Removing VI from a *nix system is defacing the OS. It's not for you, the desktop user, but it's for the technician that you might need if something goes wrong.
What will they remove next? more? Desktop users don't need it...
134 • RE:73, Cloud Computing. (by Eddie Wilson on 2010-04-23 18:36:35 GMT from United States)
"Personally, I'd rather maintain control of my own systems and not pass that control to the likes of Google, Apple, Microsoft and other multinational billion dollar data mining corporations."
Jake, I agree 100%.
135 • Missing the point (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-23 19:25:34 GMT from United States)
A lot of people arguing back and forth about vi are completely missing the point. I don't think anyone here claimed that vi was superior to emacs and that's why it needs to be included. Nobody said anything to run down nano. I don't think anyone would argue the fact that nano has a fraction of the functionality of vi. Nobody claimed vi was simple to learn or intuitive to use. Comparisons to gedit, kedit and kate are meaningless. That's apples-to-oranges since those editors require a working X. You might as well compare vi to OpenOffice.org.
It certainly has nothing to do with snobbery. Nobody is claiming you have to learn vi to use Linux. Nobody is claiming you have to be a professional systems administrator to run Linux. Nobody is claiming that users who know vi are somehow superior to those who don't except in their knowledge of that editor. I will generally claim that more knowledge is a good thing but nobody is inherently born with OS knowledge.
The point, which both fenbap and RB made well, is that vi is integral to a *nix toolkit. If your goal is a UNIX-like OS then vi pretty much is a must. Linux is a UNIX-like OS. I know some people don't like the fact or don't want to admit it but that is what it is. If an install fails to get X working the first thing I do is look at the install logs using view (vi with writing disabled) and the config files. I edit them with vi. Why vi? In UNIX and Linux it is ALWAYS there. I don't have to guess what other editors may or may not be included and start searching for things. It's as essential a part of the toolkit as a Phillips screwdriver is to a physical toolkit. The fact that a toolkit may have a flathead screwdriver is neither here nor there. It doesn't replace a Phillips.
The argument that vi can always be downloaded and added to PCLinuxOS is equally meaningless. How do I download it if networking isn't working? vi is part of the basic toolkit to fix things like that.
If some hobbyist distributor of a hobbyist Linux distro wants to exclude vi that's certainly within his rights. It's kind of silly to continue to call it Linux at that point. If you're not going to have standard GNU utilities then it ceases to be UNIX-like.
To those who say they'll never use vi I say, well... fine, then don't. Nobody is forcing you to use anything. If you want to use Linux the way people use Windows then that's your right too. Don't dismiss those who say a Linux distro should have core Linux tools as snobs. I personally find the argument "I don't use it so it isn't needed" to be incredibly self-centered and arrogant.
136 • Snobbery? Nah. Just experienced. And one last point. (by jake on 2010-04-23 20:07:07 GMT from United States)
No more than your Maths teacher was a snob when he tried to teach you trig. You failed trig, and now can't learn calculus. You'll probably never NEED trig or calculus, most folks never need more mathematical ability than the ability to count their change. And you know what? That's OK! We aren't all mathematical geniuses. Or plumbers, or electricians, or surgeons, or mechanics, either, and so we don't need to know the specialized knowledge and/or tools that go along with those career paths.
As a parting shot on this topic, even the most GUI of GUI OSes, BSD-based Mac OSX, comes with vi[1]. There is a reason for that. Mac OSX is also allowed to call itself UNIX. There is a reason for THAT, too. Can your distro of choice say the same? Mine can't. To be sure, Slackware could probably be brought into the UNIX fold fairly easily, if it isn't certifiable already ... but I kinda suspect that PV can't be arsed to submit it to The Open Group for certification[2] :-)
[1] I scared the crap out of a friend of mine who changed the password on her Mac the day before she went on vacation, and promptly forgot what she changed it to. I booted it into single-user mode & deleted her hashed password ... using vi, of course ... She didn't know the mac had a command line, and thought I had broken her machine!
[2] Much less pay their outrageous price ...
137 • oh my vi (by Anonymous on 2010-04-23 21:10:55 GMT from United States)
They probably did it on purpose, just to generate buzz. Like moving buttons to the left... And it's working. :P
138 • RE: 123 & 135 (by Landor on 2010-04-23 21:51:14 GMT from Canada)
#123
I'm sorry you felt that after reading my post. Please read this comment further.
#135
"I personally find the argument "I don't use it so it isn't needed" to be incredibly self-centered and arrogant."
That was my main point for my post #121. The snobbery of those that think because they don't use it that it shouldn't be included. This is a general theme I see with a lot of new users for the "desktop" usage of Linux. It's one of my biggest rants and for good reason, we see it growing exponentially.
My best example is if someone didn't want to have to build a whole house then they'd buy one so they didn't have to put in any effort on working/learning to build a whole home. If you leave Windows for an alternative that is different and it requires some knowledge and a learning curve but don't want that, then find something else, it's really that simple. Just don't come in and tell everyone that it barfed your MBR or something didn't work perfectly from you with no effort and Linux is at fault. Then when someone with more knowledge than them tells them how to use something from the command line they instantly foam at the mouth and say THEY shouldn't have to use the command line in this day in age and Linux is for a new generation that isn't arcane. Yes, that's nice, go back to Windows, oh, and btw, thanks for your input.
----
Just a side not in case some get offended at my "gayest" comment. Where and when I grew up everyone would use the term gay as a way to express odd, strange, messed up, weird, idiotic, etc...
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
139 • VI topic removed from PCLinuxOS ! (by RB on 2010-04-23 23:19:10 GMT from United States)
To: Jake, Caitlyn, Landor & a few others that appreciate VI.
You might be interested to know, I did open a topic on the missing VI at pclinuxos.com forum.
To my surprise, Texstar sent me a private email saying nobody missed it and it is a moot point and then promptly removed the topic ! I guess that's his way of handling anyone disagreeing with his Ripping ability. I guess that's the end of me using PCLinuxOS. Oddly enough, he didn't include VI but did include KMyMoney of all things.
To those that think this is snobery. Actually it's Noobery...if you didn't miss VI, then you came late to the party from Windows.
====
On a side note. Not a week goes by that someone his issues with one of Landors comments. Its as though you have nothing better to do. And I'm sure you will comment about this comment.
140 • #139 pclos removes vi whiner (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-23 23:27:57 GMT from Greece)
You already told us that in your post #96
141 • RE: Vi never used it in all the time I've used Linux based OS's/the BSD's etc (by Hootiegibbon on 2010-04-23 23:40:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
@135 "If some hobbyist distributor of a hobbyist Linux distro wants to exclude vi that's certainly within his rights. It's kind of silly to continue to call it Linux at that point. If you're not going to have standard GNU utilities then it ceases to be UNIX-like. "
Come on Caitlyn, this statement really does you a disservice. Linux is the kernel we choose GNU are the tools that we have a choice to use so its Linux.
I find it amusing that the only thing that (some) people have tagged onto as not good about PCLinxuxOS 2010 is the faux-issue of vi not being installed by default. that's stretching it somewhat (its in the repo, and if you cant think how to configure your os without it then some sysadmin you are! what happens when your install fails and vi gets corrupted and does not work? there are other ways to edit config files (MC among others)
OK so PCLinuxOS is not for you ... that great I bet you would love OpenBSD great OS but not really that "user friendly" for most people.
Linux based OS's, possibly more than any other OS's (although there is a good argument for the BSD's) is about choice, there are as Distrowatch attests to many different iterations to choose from one will be close to what a user wants and most have repo's that have the exact choice for that user.
so in summary the fact that PCLinxuxOS does not have vim installed means nothing to people that don't use vim, and its available in the repo for those that cant live without.
vi is but one app of many, its not an 'essential ' for everyone, it is FOR YOU and a MINORITY of users, but its up to you to install it, and if that presents a problem then move on.....
Sorry to pick obn ya a little but that coment really did do you a disservice.
and as for Landor, your gonna break that large wooden spoon of yours at this rate.
Jase
142 • @135 No vi so... (by Andy Axnot on 2010-04-23 23:50:31 GMT from United States)
Let me get this straight. If an install fails to get X working and you discover there's no vi, you're stumped? You would fall to the ground, hold your breath, turn blue, and scream "In UNIX and Linux it is ALWAYS there"?
That what you would do?
Me, I'd just use another editor, but then, I'm not a professional systems administrator.
And when, oh when, will I ever learn to avoid these silly discussions?
Andy
143 • @139 kmymoney (by Anonymous on 2010-04-24 00:16:27 GMT from United States)
Kymoney was one of the most requested applications! Many did not want to move to KDE 4 until it was available. Tex changed many of the applications in final based on user feedback during the beta testing. Nobody mentioned vi that I remember.
Different distributions cater to different users. Most PCLinuxOS users like to youtube, twitter, facebook, listen to music and sync to their ipods. They aren't interested in command line text editors however those tools are available to those who do.
144 • @139 (by CrashMaster on 2010-04-24 00:27:09 GMT from United States)
"To those that think this is snobery. Actually it's Noobery...if you didn't miss VI, then you came late to the party from Windows."
You are actually proving the point you disagree with - ROFL.
People whining about vi missing ... I'm surprised you are not also complaining about PCLinuxOS coming on a CDRom instead of floppy disks .. or will that be next week's subject for the PCLinuxOS bashing party?.
145 • @143 (by fernbap on 2010-04-24 00:44:59 GMT from Portugal)
"Nobody mentioned vi that I remember."
Sure! nobody mentioned the kernel, or grep, or more, you know why? BECAUSE THEY ARE PART OF THE SYSTEM!
You just can't say the removal of one of the administration tools that are part of linux and used by Linux administrators is irrelevant.
Besides, vi is very small compared with any of your desktop applications you are referring to. Wouldn't be hardly noticed in the ISO size.
As kaitlin said before, what if X refuses to start and you are stuck with a console? what will you use? gedit?
What you will do is call someone who knows how to administer Linux to fix it. And the first thing that person will look for is VI so that he can edit your config files. Doesn't matter is you have a dozen more command line editors available. What administrators need is the set of tools that they KNOW every Linux has. And that includes VI.
146 • #139 Are you surprised? (by Just Me on 2010-04-24 00:48:25 GMT from United States)
"I guess that's his way of handling anyone disagreeing with his Ripping ability. I guess that's the end of me using PCLinuxOS."
Are you truly surprised that criticism of their God-Like Leader was removed from the PCLOS forums?
Those forums are toxic. I'm convinced that their forums are one of the main reasons PCLOS doesn't have a larger user base.
147 • #139 (by Joble on 2010-04-24 01:06:37 GMT from United States)
I won't miss you, any more than I miss vi. You can install it if you want it, even from the command line.
148 • More flannel (by Hootiegibbon on 2010-04-24 01:08:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
@145, did you repeat what you typed out loud first?
There is more than one app to do a task, there is more and less there are VARIOUS editors available to CHOOSE from
If X goes down the first thing that is used is vi? I think not,possibly MC yeah, I would say that most Linux users that can be bothered to edit a configuration file in an environment without X would probably use something that is intuitive to use MC if they know it exists..
Most would shutdown or reboot into a livecd environment and ... oooo.. (I wonder) what can we do from a livecd.....
Folks I really feel disappointed with the attitude of some of ya, if you have a car and remove the ashtrays its still a car, if you need the ashtrays later , just put them back in...
@146, I am sure that Texstar would be flattered (if a little concerned) that you hold him in the same regard as a demi-god, he is just one man from Texas, with a mission to make a good OS (or did you not say what you typed outloud also?)
Jase
149 • @148 (by frrnbap on 2010-04-24 01:18:58 GMT from Portugal)
Then i ask you to do this (and this is my last post);
1.open your terminal
2. type cd /usr/bin
3. type dir
And now tell me what command line editors you have installed.
150 • OK I am game to see where this goes (by Hootiegibbon on 2010-04-24 01:52:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
@149
I have nano - never used , and MC - which I use (can use mcedit directly for a nice easy to use editor).
Thats my tip of the day, remember that MC is a nice file manager that can be used both in GUI and without and if you just need to edit one file use mcedit or mc -e
What I am trying to illustrate is that its NOT A BIG DEAL that vi is not there by default, its only a big issue because a MINORITY of people is trying to tell folks what apps should and should not be installed on their installs/distribution vi is not part of the system its an editor.
If Firefox was not installed and Midori was you don't 'throw the rattle out the pram' because the web browser most operating systems have is not installed by default, you accept it and install Firefox.
Jase
151 • @150 (by fernbap on 2010-04-24 03:48:23 GMT from Portugal)
Ok, picture yourself in this situation:
You go to your friend's house. You both are using his computer, but then he does something stupid and X stops working.
All you have is a console prompt. Assuming you knew what to do, you need to edit xorg.conf.
You call nano - it isn't there. You call MC - it isn't there. Then you think: "ok, this is a *nix system, so i know that at least i can count on VI".
You call VI - it isn't there! You ask your friend? Which damn editor do you have installed? - "dunno, i'm a desktop user, i don't use that stuff".
Now, do you get it? Or do i need to draw you a picture?
152 • @151 (by Anonymous on 2010-04-24 04:14:26 GMT from United States)
You run XFdrake --auto and it reconfigures your xorg.conf. No need for a manual xorg exit with a console text editor. btw mc and nano is included in PCLOS 2010.
153 • "if you didn't miss VI, then you came late to the party from Windows." (by Crow on 2010-04-24 04:30:25 GMT from Mexico)
And found that many are drunk ...
Last post on the subject, thank you
154 • re:150 (by jake on 2010-04-24 04:39:09 GMT from United States)
"I have nano - never used , and MC - which I use"
nano uses too much screen realestate for my tastes, but I often suggest it as a basic text editor, even though it's not a part of the standard tool chain. mc isn't a part of the standard tool chain, either, but I usually have it installed for one reason or another. Editing isn't one of them.
"What I am trying to illustrate is that its NOT A BIG DEAL that vi is not there by default,"
It would seem you are mistaken, thus the kerfuffle.
"its only a big issue because a MINORITY of people is trying to tell folks what apps should and should not be installed on their installs/distribution"
No, I don't think so. Go back & re-read the above. The vi advocates are pretty much unanimous in saying that your distro of choice (with or with out vi) is great, for you, if it works for you. The vi advocates, however, prefer a more complete tool chain. Vive la différence! As for "minority" ... See[1]:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/magazine/readers-choice-awards-2009?page=0,2
"vi is not part of the system its an editor."
There, you are flat out wrong. vi is an integral part of the system. A un*x system that doesn't come with vi by default is lacking. Even that paragon of GUIness, Apple Inc., agrees with this sentiment.
"If Firefox was not installed and Midori was you don't 'throw the rattle out the pram' because the web browser most operating systems have is not installed by default, you accept it and install Firefox."
No, I don't think so ... rather, I install a distro released by someone with a clue. I don't have time to waste mucking about with system internals anymore (I contributed to writing most of them in the first place ...). If the basics aren't there, I really see no point in installing it. Yes, I can install vi for myself ... but what else is missing? How long is it going to take for me to bring the system up to standard? Who is going to pay me for those hours? (If you have to ask, you can't afford me ...)
[1] Link provided by my daughter, who lurks here ... she's a managing sys/securityadmin and a pretty good C programmer. She's also looking for a couple of BSD/Linux savvy new hires (they are expanding their data center). She wonders "Does anyone who identifies with the handle "The Ripper Crew" really think they will ever land a real job in IT?" I concur, and on that note I'll shut up on this subject.
155 • Please and Thank You! (by RollMeAway on 2010-04-24 05:13:24 GMT from United States)
"Last post on the subject, thank you"
"and on that note I'll shut up on this subject."
156 • RE: 138 (by Vinze on 2010-04-24 06:05:45 GMT from Netherlands)
Oke Landor ... fair enough
157 • vi (by Anonymous on 2010-04-24 06:11:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
jake,if your daughter ever had a chance of employing the people who contribute to pclinuxos,her firm would be well up on wall st,maybe she walks around with shades on
158 • to vi or not to vi (by chon on 2010-04-24 07:07:59 GMT from Thailand)
Let me make a contribution to this ( almost) stupid conversation
http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php/topic,71394.0/topicseen.html
159 • RE: 158 (by Landor on 2010-04-24 07:33:42 GMT from Canada)
It's funny they can delete the one person's comment about it not being in there but they can allow a thread pumping up PCLOS for not having it.
Also to note, the very first post was amusing. The person who created the thread talked about it being like a my distribution is better than yours war. Obviously he doesn't comprehend what he reads very well. Then everyone started giving it a +1..lol
Next on the list was someone saying VI is huge and would take up too much room...lol (that was the more comical one)
Oh the inaccuracies. I should have read further to see what other tidbits were there but those two told me all I needed. Now I know why dbrion felt the proper name for it was PCLOL.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
160 • @159 Landor (by Anonymous on 2010-04-24 08:11:41 GMT from United States)
Its funny how you constantly post hate comments every week here pushing everyone away from visiting this site. First the dude said he wouldn't go to the forum. Then he said he did go the forum. Then he said his post was removed. Then he said he got an answer from Texstar. Seems the dude posted a comment there so he could link back to it here in typical troll fashion. Also it was pretty obvious he was a buntu fan when he type sudo vi.
161 • PClinuxOS-vi (by Nikkels on 2010-04-24 08:29:53 GMT from Thailand)
For all you pathetic whiners, here is your vi edition
http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/texstar/pclinuxos/live-cd/english/preview/pclinuxos-vim-2010.iso
Md5sum: 300e8a64d8f41add2a30d6ef283a8d62
162 • Vi oh vi? (by Hootiegibbon on 2010-04-24 10:46:26 GMT from United Kingdom)
@154,
Ok I am guessing that you have done the 'Linux from Scratch' thing,
afaik Vi is NOT part of the actual toolchain, the inclusion of an text editor is required to edit the text of the the initial config files etc,and historically vi has proven to be popular in this task, mainly becasuer people get told that you have to use vi etc etc, the editor does not have to be Vi (ie it - vi - not an integral part of the toolchain as you state, in the similar way that a dashboard is not required for an engine to work in a car)
Vi iirc is not released under the (true) Gnu license but a gnu compatible one, so there may be an argument that perhaps a Gnu licenced text editor would be better - i am sure that are folks with more knowledge than i about that.
And yes MAC does come with vi installed - but would many mac users (I mean end user) know what to do with it ?
I actually took a look at some Vi(m) screen shots and thought that it looks unfriendly, and makes me wonder if old 'ed' users look at 'ex' users and old 'ex' users look at the 'vi' users with the same disdain that PCLinuxOS has received from the Vi(m) hard core here for having nano instead?
Then again this is all Moot as there is a Vim included version available now - hows THAT for listening to a minority and supplying the good!. would any other Distro do that, would they?
Jase
163 • I Don't Care (by Ralphie Ralph on 2010-04-24 11:07:34 GMT from United States)
Why go on and on about vi? If you want it use a distro that has it. I would suspect that most of the people using Linux don't give a damn one way or the other. I am not going to go on a rant demanding that it be removed from my chosen distro because I really don't care about it. I have noticed that this forum tends to get stuck on one stupid topic and it goes on for the whole week. This is boring, talk about something interesting.
Anybody try Archiso-live? Godane has done a great job with it. You won't find it listed on Distrowatch because he doesn't have the "proper" website, or something absurd like that.
164 • Thanks (by Hootiegibbon on 2010-04-24 11:30:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
@163, point taken and thank you as its pretty much what I was trying to spell out, its all too easy to get caught up in these 'discussions'
and no, i have not tried archiso-live , I guess its live arch LiveCD?
Jase
165 • #164 (by Ralphie Ralph on 2010-04-24 11:50:51 GMT from United States)
You are most welcome. Here is the link to Archiso-live:
http://godane.wordpress.com/
Yes it is an Arch based live cd. Something different to play with anyway.
166 • RE:160, That's Just silly (by Eddie Wilson on 2010-04-24 12:10:35 GMT from United States)
"Also it was pretty obvious he was a buntu fan when he type sudo vi."
That is just a silly comment. sudo is not only used in Ubuntu. It has probably been around longer than you have. Ref the Mark Twain quote please.
167 • @ Caitlin Martin, comment 63 (and other if they know) (by Blue Knight on 2010-04-24 12:21:37 GMT from France)
You write:
"The whole reason I finally gave up on VectorLinux and migrated to SalixOS was the inability of the VectorLinux team to get out a 64-bit version. The move away from a Slackware base to built from scratch also worries me somewhat. Why would a small team like that want to reinvent the wheel?"
I'm sorry if my question is silly but you mean Vector will not Slackware based in the future? Can you be more precise please and explain? Give some more information... Thanks you very much. :-)
168 • #149 #151 VI not? (by Glenn on 2010-04-24 13:30:13 GMT from Canada)
Hi fernbap
Completely agree. I've been in exactly those situations a few times.
When you provide support there has to be some tool(s) you can count on being available so you can do your emergency work.
There are so many distros available for us that I think it is only sensible if there is a policy of having some common tools.
People here may disagree but then I consider most people here on distrowatch Linux System enthusiasts and not your everyday user who only wants to hit the power on button, click on an Icon or two and begin their activity whether it be work or play.
I do not think that VI itself is really the issue being argued, it is the availability of having a known common tool which is more to the point. I like the way you pointed that out.
Flames go here (________________________________). This is coffee roasting weekend for me. :-)
Landor, if you are reading this, I gotta take a 45 min drive down Hwy 6 one of these days so we can go to a watering hole and swap tale tales. :-)
Glenn
169 • Clarification of #168 (by Glenn on 2010-04-24 13:40:11 GMT from Canada)
Hi Gang.
For those whose mother tongue is not english I played with words in using the title "VI not". Interpret that as meaning Why Not? That would imply why not have VI which was the impression I wanted to give.
Then I proceeded with the note,
Glenn
170 • Hahahahaha (by Geeeeez Luweeeeez on 2010-04-24 14:02:40 GMT from United States)
And the (nonsensical) beat goes on.
LOL
Geeeeez Luweeeeez :)
171 • vi (by Jesse on 2010-04-24 14:35:11 GMT from Canada)
As Ms Martin pointed out further up, if an operating system doesn't have vi installed, in one form or another, then it's not UNIX. Some people may not care about that, and that's fine by me, but having vi is part of the UNIX standard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unix_utilities
You may note that nano and mc are not included in the list.
172 • Rep 82 Mandrivas base and Vim in Mandriva (by Masque du Furet on 2010-04-24 14:36:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
PCLinux is based on Mandriva, so it may be, simply, that this was passed down from the parent.
Please prove that PCLOL is Mandriva based :
From http://distrowatch.com/pclinuxos I read :
"Suggested PCLinuxOS-based alternatives: Mandriva Linux, SAM Linux Desktop, Granular Linux"
Therefore Mandriva, like Granu Lard, is PCLOL based!
OTOH:
One can directly install vim-extended (with syntax highlighting) from a Mandriva2010.0 Free DVD;
So can Joe (a very nice, more powefull than nano and which, like nano, has an inline help and can work in a remote connection if installed on a remote computer : try to run kate or gedit on a 700 km away computer; vi(m), nano and Joe The Great Editor (he gave up being a plumber!) can).
Only Cream have to be downloaded from Mandrivas repos (and Mandriva gives nice buttons to launch Cream)
I train colleagues of mine to vim + cygwin before professionnal XP gets too many viruses and they switch to GNUlinux or some Unix : the XP edition is very nice, with a full tutorial which one seldom finds in GNUlinux distributions (AFAIK Scientific has).
Excellent free books can be found, too , at vim.org : http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Vim_en:Table_of_Contents
And , if one is fat and lazy, there is cream (fully usable like scite, kate or tons of modern editors) : http://cream.sourceforge.net/
An overlooked aspect of vi(m) is that it gives training to somekind of regular expressions, and automatic string substitutions (ex : if you want to substitute "," -the Italian and French decimal separator- int ".", you can try it on vim, and, if it works (and both ways.........), modify very quickly (through sed) million of lines.....
173 • Mandrivas origins (by Pomme d'Arrosoir on 2010-04-24 15:19:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
@82,172 The link proving Mandriva is a clone is , of course :
http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major then find PClinuxOs
174 • Debian Forums? (by Anonymous on 2010-04-24 15:55:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
Haven't been able to log in to Debian forum or wiki since last night. Upgrading?
175 • @172 (by Pas du Tard on 2010-04-24 16:11:19 GMT from United States)
Therefore Mandriva, like Granu Lard, is PCLOL based!>
You do know that nobody at PCLinuxOS write that, right?
The petty name calling is soooo grade 8. Why don't y'all grow the F up?
176 • #167 - VectorLinux (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-24 16:47:50 GMT from United States)
My post was based on a comment in the forum some months ago by one of the core developers. It was also discussed on the #vectorlinuxadmin IRC channel back when I hung out there. Vector Linux 7.0 will not be based on Slackware. If the search function in the VL forums actually worked I'd find it for you.
177 • #176 (by Blue Knight on 2010-04-24 17:42:12 GMT from France)
> "My post was based on a comment in the forum some months ago by one of the core developers. It was also discussed on the #vectorlinuxadmin IRC channel back when I hung out there. Vector Linux 7.0 will not be based on Slackware. If the search function in the VL forums actually worked I'd find it for you."
Ok, thanks. :D
178 • PC Linux and Mandriva (by KevinC on 2010-04-24 18:48:20 GMT from United States)
As to PC Linux being based on Mandriva...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCLinuxOS
Or as mentioned here:
http://cristalinux.blogspot.com/2010/04/pclinuxos-2010-review.html
BTW, google is your friend...best to consult with said friend before posting.,,Mark Twain and all.
Also, I will note that Mandriva, at least the 2010 Gnome and KDE variants have vim installed by default. I checked.
179 • This Whole commentary section should be ditched (by NotLikely2return on 2010-04-24 19:48:41 GMT from United States)
This commentary section of Distrowatch is the biggest waste of time I have ever seen. Who's got the biggest pisser and who's got the best skills, or the best whatever. No wonder winders people still think Unix/Linux is stuck in the dark ages and don't want to come over to the 'dark side'!
Keep 'em in chains as long as you can, ya geeks... That way Redmond is still in control, because you can't control yourselves.
TTFN..
180 • Re: post 171 by Jesse (by Geeeeez Luweeeeez on 2010-04-24 20:14:52 GMT from United States)
Jesse said:
"As Ms Martin pointed out further up, if an operating system doesn't have vi installed, in one form or another, then it's not UNIX. Some people may not care about that, and that's fine by me, but having vi is part of the UNIX standard."
No, Jesse, Ms. Martin said in post 94:
"I'm with RB, Jesse and Ladislav on this one. vi is an essential tool. Once upon a time not all that long ago vi was the one thing you could count on finding on any UNIX or Linux system. It was the one constant -- a standard in text editing. It's always there if you need to recover a system with significant problems, which generally means no X. "
Unix or Linux.
Not just Unix.
Your defense of what was actually posted is both incorrect and transparent.
Once upon a time, we has 78rpm records too.
Geeeeez Luweeeeez
181 • of unix and unix-like (by Hootiegibbon on 2010-04-24 20:15:59 GMT from United Kingdom)
@171
"As Ms Martin pointed out further up, if an operating system doesn't have vi installed, in one form or another, then it's not UNIX. Some people may not care about that, and that's fine by me, but having vi is part of the UNIX standard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unix_utilities
You may note that nano and mc are not included in the list."
But that's the point Jesse Linux is not actully UNIX its a UNIX-Like posix compliant OS, its the inclusion of an editor whether it be nano/mcedit/vi(m)/ex/ed etc etc
Jase
182 • #179 (by Unome on 2010-04-24 20:52:18 GMT from United States)
Jesse said:
"As Ms Martin pointed out further up, if an operating system doesn't have vi installed, in one form or another, then it's not UNIX. Some people may not care about that, and that's fine by me, but having vi is part of the UNIX standard."
No, Jesse, Ms. Martin said in post 94:
"I'm with RB, Jesse and Ladislav on this one. vi is an essential tool. Once upon a time not all that long ago vi was the one thing you could count on finding on any UNIX or Linux system. It was the one constant -- a standard in text editing. It's always there if you need to recover a system with significant problems, which generally means no X. "
Unix or Linux.
Not just Unix.
Your defense of what was actually posted is both incorrect and transparent.
Once upon a time, we has 78rpm records too.
Geeeeez Luweeeeez
WTF???!!! Will it ever stop? Please stop this mindless, stupifying, gibberish. vi? C'mon, nobody "needs" it for anything! It is irrelevant to everyone but a few geek wannabe's who are stuck in 1970. These are the same morons who hate kde, window managers, and Linux. These are actually trolls who are trying to drive people back to Windows.
#179 You are so right! But as you can see these trolls just ignore the pleas to drop this moronic subject and keep puking up this garbage. The whole vi thing is poppycock.
183 • posix (by Jesse on 2010-04-24 21:13:32 GMT from Canada)
"But that's the point Jesse Linux is not actully UNIX its a UNIX-Like posix compliant OS"
Sure, Linux isn't Unix, it's more of a Unix-clone or, as you said, Unix-like. However, it's only POSIX compliant if it comes with vi, the editor being a part of the POSIX standard. Which is why most sysadmins will expect to find it on a Linux system.
I'm not sure, but I think LSB also mentions the vi editor, though I could be mistaken on that account.
As for people saying vi is out dated, like record players, isn't that a bit like saying all modern users will use a GUI for file manipulation, so we can get rid of the "cp" command? Maybe we could toss out "dd" too, most non-geeks won't miss it either.
Please note, I'm not saying PCLinuxOS should include vi pre-installed. I used the distro for about a week recently without even noticing the editor was missing. I'm simply pointing out why most admins will expect the editor to be there.
184 • The right OS for old hardware (by Anonymous on 2010-04-24 21:19:46 GMT from Brazil)
> I've used them all - Slitaz, Puppy, TC, etc and AntiX blows them out of the water for ease of use and configurability due to that Debian base and excellent Mepis tools.
Indeed, antiX is nice and easily configurable. But their hardware recognition sucks... It doesn't detect a serial (RS-232) mouse, an ISAPNP modem, and some other very old devices. It also doesn't boot on a lot of old PCs from Pentium II to Pentium III. In contrast, Damn Small Linux 4.4.10 not only detects everything but also configures everything automagically.
Forget the antiX hype. If you have really old hardware, just install DSL 4.4.10 and be happy. It worked yesterday, it works today, and it will keep working tomorrow!
185 • Tools (by Anonymous on 2010-04-24 21:25:02 GMT from United States)
The tools on the LiveCD are tailored to the demographics of the distribution. We not talking about Gentoo, Slackware or Sytem Admins. We are talking about people who most have never touched a command line and those who do surely would find nano a welcome tool instead of vi. You tailor your product to meet the needs of the majority of your clients.
186 • The right OS for old hardware (by Anonymous on 2010-04-24 21:39:45 GMT from Brazil)
I forgot to mention: DSL is meant for "frugal install", not for a traditional "stand alone" install. And regarding dial-up Internet, DSL is also much better than antiX, especially when using "Dillo patched" browser. Just compare Dillo in DSL and Dillo in antiX, and you will see a big difference in favor of DSL.
187 • VI is on PCLinuxOS ! - sort of...read on (by RB on 2010-04-25 06:13:21 GMT from United States)
If you dig deep enough...
I found VI on PCLinuxOS, but I'm afraid that if I tell anyone where it is, Texstar would remove that as well. Or anticapitalista would go running to his daddy and tell him to remove it.
Vi is well hidden but I found it.
And its not VIM, its VI. I'm sure the nobbs that have opposed this topic, or are completely in the dark on VI's usage will NEVER find it.
as a hint , its a tool that gets rarely used :)
188 • #187 Try reading post #161 (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-25 07:07:22 GMT from Greece)
Hey Daddy, Texstar has included vi in pclos. See post #161
189 • @187 (by Crash Master on 2010-04-25 07:17:20 GMT from United States)
But vi isn't vim, is it? Vim is IMPROVED vi.
Any distro that does not include vim really shouldn't even call itself Linux. Or Unix. Or even Paulie. It could call itself Ray I suppose, but definitely not Paulie.
190 • Debian Forums (by Anonymous on 2010-04-25 07:42:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
For anyone wondering what had happened to the Debian forums :-
From: Martin Zobel-Helas
To: debian-infrastructure-announce@lists.debian.org
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:25:49 +0200
Subject: deinstallation of irqbalance made most of debian.org machines offline
Hi,
We are very sorry to inform that today DSA deployed an update (removing
irqbalance) which made most of Debian machines unavailable.
We currently are in the process of rebooting and fixing the machines,
but the sheer number of hosts that need to be fixed mean that it will
take some time.
For some machines we also need to wait for the local admins to react.
Sorry for the inconvenience.
Martin
PS: Thanks to Margarita Manterola for drafting that text.
191 • The end is nigh (by Grepnix on 2010-04-25 07:56:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
What is this pall that hangs over us? Allegedly, stable Debian servers down all over the place and VIM no longer required in a Linux distro!!
Is this it? has the end come? Are we D-O-O-M-E-D !?!??
192 • Re: 191 Yep. Doomed. (by jake on 2010-04-25 08:24:34 GMT from United States)
Digital Onlookers Objectively Make Education Disturbing ...
The GreatUnwashed(tm) really just doesn't want to know.
As Barbie put it so eloquently, "Math class is tough!"
193 • @ 187 (by Master Crash on 2010-04-25 09:35:29 GMT from United States)
That is just the most ignorant statement I've ever heard. vi is just a console text editor and has nothing more to do with Linux than any other text editor. If it includes Linux kernel it is Linux.
194 • @188 Shameless Fun! (by Master Crash on 2010-04-25 09:42:15 GMT from United States)
Yeh I saw this posted on their forum. They are having good fun with this stupid nonsense.
**** Notice: PCLinuxOS 2010 vim Special Edition now available for download! ****
Thats right folks. For a limited time only. PCLinuxOS 2010 vim Special Edition is available for download for the ultimate vi connoisseur. PCLinuxOS 2010 vim Special Edition still contains all of the great features you love from our Regular Edition but now comes with a bonus console text editor! And we're talking about the 36mb full enhanced version too! Available for the low low price of FREE! Hurry while supplies last. Downloads are standing by.
Download: http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/texstar/pclinuxos/live-cd/english/preview/pclinuxos-vim-2010.iso
Md5sum: 300e8a64d8f41add2a30d6ef283a8d62
An exclusive release for specifically for Distowatch Weekly!
195 • @ 176 (Caitlyn Martin) (by Blue Knight on 2010-04-25 10:19:48 GMT from France)
Maybe this is what you seek in the Vector forums: http://forum.vectorlinux.com/index.php?topic=10683.msg68536#msg68536 By Masta, November 03, 2009:
"Sorry for such a late reply Dweeberkitty. I don't think this is based on the 13. But, it is nearly as up to date in many areas. We had to bring things "up" in order of KDE 4.
I can't give out the other differences off from the top of my head other than the Xorg. ALL I can say without those details is that the SOHO is pretty close. Far more up than the STD. Even the installer in this SOHO has been expanded with many extra features and more flexibility and so on.
We have also began the core of VL-7, which will not be based on SLackware either. The team has been working on developing it's own core, which is intended to be in VL-7. Still too early at this point to be certain, but that was the idea. Of course it will still be Slack compatible.
Hope this helps at least a little."
Someone opened a new topic in the forums about this at http://forum.vectorlinux.com/index.php?topic=11678.0 and Vector, Vector Administrator, answered:
"I guess the confusion here is the term "slackware based*. VL has always has its roots based on slackware methods and ideology but has diverged in several areas to make it more accessible to the average user and not just the linux elite. We will always use the slackware packaging system as I believe it is simple and less prone to dependency hell than the debian and redhat based systems. We will always abide by the kiss principle and avoid things like pam that make a simple system a complex security nightmare. We will always be slackware compatible in terms of a package from slacky.eu or linuxpackages.net will always work in VL. The comment from Masta about our own core system was kind of out of context in that we were looking at a possible portage way of building packages to help automate things but still using slackbuilds and the slack package system. So fear not we will remain slack based in the terms of what has been since VL's birth.
Cheers,
Vec"
and Masta again:
"Indeed that is how it is. Thanks Vec for clearing that up. I send apologies to anyone if My post in the other thread caused any confusion. We are NOT leaving Slackware, we were just changing some things in Vecotrlinux's CORE, which is still different that Slack's, yet still based on it. And that probably makes even more confusion so I'll leave it at that, lol."
So Vector is/becomes a Slackware compatible and in the spirit of distro but no longer a Slackware distro, right? Hugh...
196 • RE 178 : Mandriva's origins and its vi(M) defaults (by Figue de Barbarie on 2010-04-25 13:06:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
"As to PC Linux being based on Mandriva...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCLinuxOS
Or as mentioned here:
http://cristalinux.blogspot.com/2010/04/pclinuxos-2010-review.html
BTW, google is your friend...best to consult with said friend before posting.,,Mark Twain and all.
"
a)
Therefore, Distrowatch disagrees with wikipedia **and** cristalinux???
see
http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major
But are wikipedia (one can find huge inconstancies there!) and Xal linux serious?
maybe they should have read this :
"BTW, google is your friend...best to consult with said friend before posting.,,Mark Twain and all.
"
"Also, I will note that Mandriva, at least the 2010 Gnome and KDE variants have vim installed by default. I checked."
You ****partially*** checked , at best -I suppose you were sincere ....-: if you have a hen install of KDE (or GNome : I checked both from their free DVD 2010.0), you will get an old fashioned vi,
a not that _improved_ one,
without syntax highlight;
you must install vim-X11 or vim-enhanced to get syntax highlight (which spares 10% of debugging times , just ask your god Google or Mark Twain, if you cannot think and seriously test by yourself!)
Perhaps you should test whether it works before (g)urpmi-ing some stuff and writing : it exists, therefore it is functional.
Before, a full viM natively (without efforts) existed in Mandrivas ie in a PCLOL based alternative (at least, before or equal 2008.1); the best vim (fully configured, not to have to check for extra parts) can be found in XP ports....
197 • Sturgeon's Law (by jack on 2010-04-25 13:39:03 GMT from Canada)
This issue of the DWW commentary is a shining example:
"Ninety percent of everything is crud."
198 • live cd list? (by sidewinder on 2010-04-25 15:01:15 GMT from Canada)
What a strange phrase ------------have ten "live cd's on the table , few of which will run on a basically new computer . What the hell is this insurmountable problem with inane hidden passwords on a TRIAL LIVE CD'S . Better yet why in this day and age are we using cd's not flash drives --------------didn't they go out with the floppy's ? I want to try out a system before I reload my machine . I wonder if anyone tries these out on various machines before they are released . All I get now when I attempt to try out a system is more doubts -------- I am not going to load something that I can't test run . Strange to realize that the START function hasn't been sorted out yet on so many programs . Simply put ---------User Unfriendly Products . Irony is some are really good . Live Flash is the only way to bring your product to the public . Live CD as it is now is is bound to drive them away . Linux has huge potential but only if it is USER friendly as opposed to DEVELOPER friendly . Time to get out of the private club and onto world market . Will continue with Ubuntu which I am happy with for now . Hope this is taken as constructive not just criticism .
" You can always spot inferior people by their superior attitude"
199 • RE #63 (by Lobo Mau on 2010-04-25 15:13:24 GMT from Brazil)
"@Michael: Agreed. The whole reason I finally gave up on VectorLinux and migrated to SalixOS was the inability of the VectorLinux team to get out a 64-bit version."
@Caitlyn: Disagreed, completely. The whole reason I finally migrated to VectorLinux was the inability of the SalixOS team to get out such an extraordinary 32-bit Linux distro.
"The move away from a Slackware base to built from scratch also worries me somewhat."
Don't worry, baby. The move away from Slackware base to build from scratch is a clear sign that Robert Lange is going to make VectorLinux a fully independent (and therefore stronger) project. So, if Patrick Volkerding retires, gets ill, or even dies, VectorLinux would continue to develop without bumps.
"Why would a small team like that want to reinvent the wheel?"
Just because they have the guts to do it... and also because anything can be improved. For a similar reason (to make better and cheaper vehicles), Henry Ford reinvented the automotive industry.
And for all of those UNIX bubbleheads who love the arcane VI, I have a question: Why don't you use a Ford model T and a grammophone?
200 • REF • #187 Try reading what I wrote. (by RB on 2010-04-25 16:30:47 GMT from United States)
Post#161 is a link to INSTALL vim.
What I said, is VI is already on PCLinusOS. No need to install anything.
Try reading next time!
201 • #199 Funniest post I've seen (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-25 16:32:36 GMT from United States)
ROTFLOL. Lobo Mau, you are quite the comedian.
"Disagreed, completely. The whole reason I finally migrated to VectorLinux was the inability of the SalixOS team to get out such an extraordinary 32-bit Linux distro."
So... please elaborate. What is lacking in the 32-bit version of SalixOS that VectorLinux has which is important to you. I happen to like both distros and don't find much lacking in either. What do you dislike about SalixOS?
Also, do you have 64-bit equipment? Do you have 4GB of RAM or more? If the answer to either of those is "yes" how do you address the full memory with a 32-bit build of VectorLinux? What do you do to make up for the performance degradation when using an app that requires a lot of computational power?
"The move away from Slackware base to build from scratch is a clear sign that Robert Lange is going to make VectorLinux a fully independent (and therefore stronger) project."
Last I checked Robert had lost a key developer. He has a very small team. Normally releases are about a year apart, usually in December. We are 14 months past 6.0 and there still isn't a SOHO version, now nearly a year behind what was the normal schedule for 5.x releases. Does Robert have the smarts to do this? Definitely. Does he have the people? I don't think so.
"So, if Patrick Volkerding retires, gets ill, or even dies, VectorLinux would continue to develop without bumps."
If vector (Robert) has the ability to fly solo now he certainly would have it if anything happened to Patrick Volkerding.
"'Why would a small team like that want to reinvent the wheel?'
Just because they have the guts to do it..."
With all due respect, that isn't a reason. The usual result is buggy code and a half-baked distro. I've seen it too many times before. Slackware's main strength is stability and reliability. I'm honestly afraid the 7.0 release will be more like a 1.0 release. Also, if they have twice started and failed to deliver a 64-bit distro what makes you think they can do everything from scratch well? Once again, it's a lack of people, not a lack of talent.
"And for all of those UNIX bubbleheads who love the arcane VI, I have a question: Why don't you use a Ford model T and a grammophone?"
This is so stupid it's incredibly funny. Do you know what standards are? Do you understand why adherence to standards is important? Which other console editor (besides the equally arcane emacs) can do everything vi can do and more? Besides, nobody said it was the best editor. What we all said was that it was a tool that should be there when things go wrong because it is standard to a POSIX-compliant, *nix based OS.
Oh, and I'm not your baby. Don't you dare go there.
202 • #200 Try reading yourself! (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-25 16:45:01 GMT from Greece)
#200 Post#161 is a link to INSTALL vim.
No it isn't! It is a link to download pclos iso with vim.
203 • @ 202 (by Crow on 2010-04-25 17:21:26 GMT from Mexico)
RB needs to try reading ;-)
On the other hand a special PCLinuxOS 2010 vi edition delivery hehe talk about service :-)
204 • @196 New Information (by Master Crash on 2010-04-25 17:23:39 GMT from United States)
As seen in a recent post. "PCLinuxOS 2010 was built using the packages in our repository. It is not based on a Mandriva install nor is it based on our 2009 release updated. The packages in our repo may be original creations but may also contain repackaged and modified srpms from Fedora, OpenSuse and Mandriva. PCLinuxOS may also contain patches from Ubuntu, Debian, PLD and Charka. So in summary it is similar to Mandriva due to many ported packages and different in that we create our own packages, import packages from other distributions and patches as needed."
205 • Lynx (by capricornus on 2010-04-25 17:46:44 GMT from Belgium)
This weekend I tested Lynx, installed it on an AMDx2 system, perfect, then on a Pentium2x system, perfect, then on an old Athlon 2000 system, perfect, and last but not least, on a EeePc, and ... just perfect. The Athlon is the slowest to perform, but the laptop is 8 years old. Lucid Lynx, go for it!
206 • Grub (by capricornus on 2010-04-25 17:49:53 GMT from Belgium)
I jest discovered how to remove GRUB2 and to install GRUB, and it works, well, it works for those who want a dual boot. More than that, I didn't resolve, but most of my pc's are in a dual boot mode, only my test pc has more than that. I'll find out. I still think that GRUB2 should have been tested more and that it needs a GUI.
207 • RE: VI, The comments and Jake - Glenn :) (by Landor on 2010-04-25 19:45:55 GMT from Canada)
VI:
For those of you that can't understand the logic of it "pre-installed" as opposed to getting it from the internet, well, you have a simple failing, a first-world attitude. Many post here that they don't have access to the internet at home and sales of Linux Magazines in poorer/less technological advanced parts of the world show that many people rely on other forms of getting Linux. Also factor in the steep cost of internet usage in said countries. Now "if" this distribution is such a great thing for new users, and a new user in an area that I just spoke of and got a copy from a magazine, or purchased it some way and it failed somehow, who would they get help from? A professor perhaps in school? An administrator that's a friend? I know one thing about professors, they do it by the book for the most part. They believe in standard tools to get the job done. They'll drop to the command line and look for what they know "should" be there. VI is important and get your head out of your asses and try to see other scenarios for it's need to be included.
Comments:
I couldn't help but read the thread about the comments here over at PCLOL further. I was amused to see that I was even mentioned, and by none other than the "vaunted" (lol) Bill Reynolds himself. Sigh... Anyway... One thing I noticed was the participants there were literally fueling the fire here, and intentionally, then like little children going back and posting stuff like "someone stop me!! lol" It even got the point where the originator of the thread was upset by their compatriots and closed the thread. It was also amusing to note that most of the people running over to hear were moderators/admins. What a fine and upstanding community.
I'm finished with this topic, I don't enjoy fueling the little childish group bouncing back and forth looking for pats on the back and high fives from their like-minded brethren.
Jake:
Congrats to your daughter, you must be very proud of her accomplishments.
Glenn:
When are you comin' this way? Any idea?
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
208 • Can't wait for Monday.. (by Jon Iverson on 2010-04-25 22:48:18 GMT from United States)
This latest edition of DW Comments has become so completely inane, and so sadly typical of what's WRONG with a great many who post here, that all I can say is Monday can't get here too soon..
Of course we all know that just a few posts into tomorrows fresh edition of DW Comments and our resident self appointed "experts" along with their anti-Linux troll counterparts will be back at it once again. So the real question is, why should anyone bother any longer with what is quickly turning into the weekly DW Cage Match Spectacular? The only real winners are Windows FB's who point to what's going on and say; "See, I told you the vaunted open source Linux community is a fractured mess. Just take a look at DW Comments.."
209 • @208 - I Agree 100% (by Bryan Channell on 2010-04-25 23:05:06 GMT from United States)
I agree with you 100% Jon... Most of what goes on in the comment section of DW and in practically every forum of every Distro of Linux, does way more damage to the reputation of Linux than it Helps... It is a major turn of to Newbies like myself and many others who are looking for alternatives to to High Prices and Monopolistic ways of Microsoft of other Windows Software Creators... All the bickering that goes on between the different Linux camps does nothing to further the cause of Linux...
210 • Interesting list of linux users (by RollMeAway on 2010-04-25 23:38:40 GMT from United States)
http://www.focus.com/fyi/information-technology/50-places-linux-running-you-might-not-expect/
211 • @ 207 (by Crash Master on 2010-04-26 00:22:35 GMT from United States)
You call PCLinuxOS "PCLOL" and it's the OTHER people who are childish.
I love this type of farcical comedy ... keep it up.
212 • re #165 archiso-live & #172 vim book (by gnomic on 2010-04-26 00:26:54 GMT from New Zealand)
Archiso-live seems like a Good Thing to me, and I have enjoyed using it over a couple of years in its various versions. It has to be the easiest way of sampling a very current Arch around (tho' there is now Archbang which I happen to be using at this moment). I have never had any trouble with apps not working, tho' there was a period when Intel video wouldn't start. It is the effort of one man I believe, and documentation is scanty. Some of you will be pleased to learn that vi is included :-) Oh, one slight quirk of late, the kernel is now PAE-enabled which means it won't run on some Pentium M processors.
#172 Thanks for the link to the vim online book at swaroopch.com. It looks good after first skim of contents.
213 • re#189 (by RayRay on 2010-04-26 00:35:29 GMT from United States)
I take offense, it could be Ray, why not.
Install PCLinuxOS and enjoy, leave Vi(m) problems behind.
Next time you read a review from one of these self proclaimed experts at least you will know where they are coming from.
They are obviously biased towards the distros that cater to their likes.
Texstar has delivered a well put together distro that just works. For the people that need vi(m) it's install from Synaptic.
If they are so knowledgeable why don't they help develop a distro.
It is always easier to criticize.
214 • #198 live cds and the START function (by gnomic on 2010-04-26 00:43:31 GMT from New Zealand)
"Strange to realize that the START function hasn't been sorted out yet on so many programs"
I fear I have no idea what you mean here - care to clarify?
I am also left unclear on how exactly live CDs impede the progress of Linux after reading your comments.
By the way, it may be better to try Linux on a less than bleeding edge computer as there is sometimes a lag in getting the required drivers and/or firmware in place. Many hardware makers focus their main efforts on Windows support. Linux tends to be an afterthought.
215 • @125, 126 - Respectfully Apt (by Woodstock69 on 2010-04-26 00:53:02 GMT from Papua New Guinea)
@125 - You show no respect at all by your comment and your lack of identity shows your cowardice. That rubbish you submitted certainly removed all the doubt Mr twain warns of. It epitomises all that is bad in the Linux world and forums - RTFM. Thanks mate, you're as helpful as a PNG politician after a cyclone!
@126 - Thank you Jesse, as always your comments ARE respectful. I do in fact create an ISO and store that as the backup, but how do I mount the ISO to make synaptic think it's a CD/DVD? You can only add a CD/DVD not a directory. I haven't tried mounting the ISO under /media/CDROM, I'd expect that would only work if synaptic looks for /mnt/cdrom instead of /dev/sr0 or something, but as it searches automatically for what ever drive the system mounted as CDROM, that sounds unlikely be able to be done.
216 • I just remembered something that may or may not help ... (by jake on 2010-04-26 03:00:04 GMT from United States)
People who can't grok the "No vi? That's a showstopper!" opinion of long-term un*x users would do well to read "The UNIX-HATERS Handbook". Some folks who think they are long-term un*x users might do well to read it, too.
http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/weise/uhh-download.html
Think "hospital humor" along the lines of M*A*S*H, crossed with system administration. Or, if you like, a RealLife[tm] look at where potential BOFHs[1] come from.
Or don't bother reading it. Whatever. Your loss.
The bottom line is that all software[2] sucks, all hardware sucks, all OSes suck & all fanbois suck. However, standards exist to keep us all sane(ish).
[1] The BOFH series (as currently published occasionally on The Register), was old and derivative of itself before it left Usenet, IMO ...
[2] There is no such thing as software ... software is merely the current state of the hardware.
217 • RE: 126 (by Landor on 2010-04-26 03:02:28 GMT from Canada)
Have you tried making a symlink from /dev/sr0 to /whereyourisoismounted ?
I hope that helps in some way.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
218 • oops! (by Landor on 2010-04-26 03:08:03 GMT from Canada)
that should be RE: 215 not 126.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
219 • Oh, and I forgot ... (by jake on 2010-04-26 03:08:13 GMT from United States)
Landor, I'm no prouder of her than any other father of a child who has managed to make her own way in life, and never asks of me more than answers to questions (and a place to stay in California during Cincinnati's winter vacation season). I'd bail her out financially in a heartbeat if she needed it, but so far she's doing well, despite a huge load of student loans that need paying off.
I must admit, I'm quite looking forward to becoming a grandfather at 50-ish, though :-)
220 • to 208 and 209 (by forlin on 2010-04-26 04:41:10 GMT from Portugal)
This week I've been busy with some posting at a few floss forums. So, contrary to what I use to, this time I did not follow up this comments section from top to bottom. I arrived, start reading from bottom to top, and paused at your comments
I'd like to say that I've read here good weekly comments, healthy and didactic. There have been exceptions, but too few to care here with that problem.
Bryan Channell, said most that goes wrong at many Linux forums, does way more damage to the reputation of Linux than it Helps.
"All the bickering that goes on between the different Linux camps does nothing to further the cause of Linux..."
I agree. This week, somewhere else, I myself had to personally face it.. Everybody should think "higher" than about what just relates to his own distro.
I know that all this problems are happening at the Linux in the desktop. But the true, is that this also damage the image of Linux, as a whole.
every forum of every Distro of Linux, does way more damage to the reputation of Linux than it Helps
Number of Comments: 220
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