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1 • sidux (by dustybin at 2010-04-12 09:18:58 GMT from United Kingdom) |
strange to not review main sidux version (KDE) xfce screenshots make it look old...
GOOD: sidux is fast, stable and ready to work with- even from cd. Small helpful community.
BAD: Effort has to be put in to keep it up to date and functional. Small community.
Arch and sidux are brothers from another mother.
Peace & Love
2 • QubesOS (by alank at 2010-04-12 10:15:25 GMT from United States)
qubesos looks interesting but is 64-bit only.
3 • Sidux and Package Management (by Untitled at 2010-04-12 11:51:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
sidux doesn't include any graphical package management tools since they are against using them. The proper sidux-way is to close x and run apt-get. Not even aptitude is considered by them as stable enough to handle updates, and they probably frowned upon your screen-shot showing Synaptic.
For the short while I've used sidux aptitude worked well enough for me, but admittedly I didn't run it for long enough to prove them right/wrong with their assertion that one day it will break.
Oh, and this is not a complaint, just stating the facts as I know them and I might as well be wrong.
4 • sidux (by mandog on 2010-04-12 12:01:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
You can't compare sidux with Arch Linux
I used to use sidux it was a great distro then there was turmoil from within. devs abandoned ship. Now its very dictatorial and cold you have what you are given if you don't like it tough.
This is in total contrast to Arch Linux you get a base system build to your liking. You also get plenty of help from the wiki/forums.
5 • Sidux versus sidux (by Anonymous penguin at 2010-04-12 12:32:16 GMT from Switzerland)
> DW: Is it always a lower-case "s" in "sidux"?
> FT: Yes, it's always a lower-case "s". Most magazines ignore the trademark and just follow their routines where distributions start with an upper-case character and that at the start of a sentence you always have a upper-case character too. I mostly gave up fighting that.
It’s quite funny: According to Distrowatch  it is a distribution from Germany but its developers don’t seem to know the most basic orthography rule in German that the first letter of a noun is written in upper case … It’s only correct and logical that magazines do correct this spelling mistake. :)
By the way: I know a good alternative for Sidux: Debian Sid! :D
6 • Games (by Dave on 2010-04-12 13:32:31 GMT from United States)
I like the further development of games with a Unix base.I'm a gamer
and I have a gaming pc.I hope one day a linux game comes along that
will pull windows gamers over.
7 • Lubuntu (by nemo on 2010-04-12 14:17:56 GMT from United States)
No 64-bit? Not for me.
8 • Sidux support community polite? (by dj3 on 2010-04-12 14:19:54 GMT from United States)
I have been using sidux from the last few months (converted from Deb Testing after reading positive reviews) and was appalled by my first experience with the sidux support community. I had been using a set of scripts including sgfxi that are widely recommended on the web and seemed to me as a new user to be a common part of most users' sidux installs. For reasons that I cannot determine, it turns out that there was a big kerflufffle about a year ago that led to the sidux developers all of the sudden banning the use of these scripts (what sort of distro does that?!) and refusing to support users who have used them.
I didn't know any of this when I entered the sidux IRC channel and asked a question not actually related to these scripts, but mentioning that I had used them. I was promptly told by several in the channel that these scripts are not supported, which is fine, but also that I should wipe my system and do a clean sidux install simply because I had used the scripts. This is outrageous! Fortunately, I knew better than to wipe the system I had spent weeks using happily and tweaking over the minor issue I was having, but I found the support community to be unfriendly and unhelpful and would not recommend sidux for this reason. I hope that others have had better experiences.
A few of many forum threads with more information:
9 • Linux games (by megadriver at 2010-04-12 14:20:11 GMT from Spain)
There are tons of great (and free!) games available for Linux. Here are some of my favourites (warning! I'm a 2D lover and a 3D hater!):
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/
The Battle for Wesnoth http://www.wesnoth.org/
GNU Robbo http://gnurobbo.sourceforge.net/
10 • 'unstable' sid (by commenter on 2010-04-12 14:24:11 GMT from Brazil)
As one sidux developer said in the interview, he finds Debian sid's 'unstable' label relating more at the rate it gets updated.
I never run sidux installed (when I proved the Xfce live-cd I was very pleased by its speed) but I have a sid installation and anyone that doesn't have a fairly fast Internet connection maybe should rather not use it. It updates A LOT.
I read Fedora has an update system of delta patches and I don't know if Debian has that too but it would be very useful when running sid.
11 • @10 (by megadriver at 2010-04-12 14:30:02 GMT from Spain)
Well, there's debdelta. I used it while playing with Debian Testing, and it worked as advertised.
12 • Ref#3 & #8 s[S]idux demise (by RB at 2010-04-12 14:58:48 GMT from United States)
I used sidux in the past and found there forum horrid. How arcane is it to use that script that your referring to. Slow, sluggish and the author is hard headed. They refuse to talk about any gui let alone using aptitude. What nonsense!
I also found their forums to be combative and unfriendly.
13 • RE 5: What's in a name? (by Jesse at 2010-04-12 15:00:08 GMT from Canada)
English uses the same rule regarding proper nouns, they start with a upper-case letter. However, as the developer pointed out, "sidux" isn't just a proper noun, it is also a trademark. It's as much as symbol as it is a word. We often see products which have names which don't match common language use, such as Apple's iMac, iPod, iPhone, etc. The BSD-related company iXsystems also has a name which breaks common language use.
It wouldn't be proper for a magazine to constantly refer to the Ipod or Ixsystems.
14 • Printers for linux (by James Landsborough on 2010-04-12 15:12:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
Why is it that no linux distros can configure my Epson Stylus Photo PX700W or my Canon Pixma MP540. Windows 7 has no problems with either.
15 • Re: Games for Linux (by Sitwon on 2010-04-12 15:12:59 GMT from United States)
@Jesse Smith: I was with you until the middle of the third paragraph. The "too many distros/kernels/libs/blah blah blah" excuse is pure BS. It's a red herring, scape goat argument made by people who lack experience/understanding of Linux or software development in general. Or by people who hope the other person is ignorant enough to believe it.
As someone who packages and supports software professionally for Windows, Linux (all of them), OS X, Solaris, and HP-UX, I can tell you that the difficulty of supporting different execution environments it truly overblown.
The real reason behind those excuses has nothing to do with distribution/implementation woes. It's the support cost. Linux users tend to need a lot more hand-holding. Often when they contact support they're having basic systems administration issues, not problems related to the software in question. It's also harder to train support staff to handle Linux questions. Unlike Windows where everyone's desktop is essentially identical, you can't build simply troubleshooting trees for Linux because you don't know what desktop environment they're using, or what sound daemon they use.
What it boils down to is that in the consumer software market, Linux users are disproportionately more expensive to support than Windows or Mac users. Not because the Linux environment is inherently more more difficult or time-consuming to package for, but because the users are often ignorant but too prideful to admit it. (Eg. "I'm a Linux users so I _must_ be smarter than this support guy... even though I have no clue how my binaries resolve run-time dependencies.")
16 • re: "unfriendly" sidux forum (by Snow at 2010-04-12 15:21:42 GMT from United States)
I had a similar experience the first time I tested sidux. I tried to get it onto a USB thumb drive using Unetbootin so I could test it on my netbook. "sidux doesn't support unetbootin; we have our own USB installer, use that instead" was their somewhat brusque reply. Not "sorry, you poor thing" or "we will drop what we're working on and help you troubleshoot an application we've never used." It hurt my feelings a tiny bit, but now that I've spent more time on the sidux forums, I see how helpful most of the posters are and how correct their advice can be.
"We do not support unetbootin/synaptic/aptitude/smxi/etc. here" is not rude in my opinion. It is no different than the Ubuntu forums discouraging how-to-log-in-as-root tutorials. There is a big difference between an unmoderated discussion forum and a moderated official support forum. Sidux has the prerogative to decide which tools they officially support and to encourage users to follow the procedures in their manual. The sidux devs know a lot more about running stable Sid than I do, and if they say "apt-get works better than aptitude" I am inclined to listen.
17 • Sidux (by Dave at 2010-04-12 15:28:58 GMT from Canada)
I enjoyed using sidux, but don't use it currently... but would if I had a little more spare time in my life.
I can confirm there's some weird politics around the sgfxi (etc.) scripts as well as (if I remember) the Zen kernels. It seemed to be a sensitive issue to some of the developer community. I did fine using stock sidux.
sidux recommends using apt-get dist-upgrade from the command line without X running (if I recall). My understanding was that dist-upgrade does more thorough dependency resolutions, and isn't an option in synaptic(?). The rare problem I encountered in updates was quickly resolvable by searching the forums or asking in IRC. It did seem to do a lot of downloading, as another commenter mentioned, and perhaps a delta-download approach would be useful.
A few commenters have said the forums were bad. I think the content (esp. announcements) were solid and very useful to me. I never did much posting/conversation however.
I do want to say that my experience in the IRC channel was top notch, with knowledgeable and helpful support at all hours, and hardly any fluff/misdirection/ignoring. The prominence of the IRC channel and excellent user manual on the desktop of a default install was one of the things I admired most about sidux.
sidux also gave me my first (positive) taste of KDE4.x, and I recommend users try the KDE-full rather than the KDE-lite, unless you're well familiar with the packaging of KDE in debian.
Your mileage may vary.
18 • Sidux... sorry I mean sidux :) (by Patrick on 2010-04-12 15:37:37 GMT from United States)
I have been running sidux for several years on my Acer netbook and I haven't run into any issues. Runs fast and reliable, but yes, updates can be big. Since I haven't had any issues I don't have any experience with the forums or IRC. For me it has been trouble free and a good performer.
19 • Games for Linux (by ChiJoan on 2010-04-12 15:42:44 GMT from United States)
Are there any developing tables for our one Pinball game? There also seems to be less Word games for Linux. Not everyone is into action games. Thanks for any links, it's been awhile since I gave up looking.
Looking forward to reading about the smaller distros...
20 • Sidux vs Arch .... No contest (by morgan on 2010-04-12 15:53:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
I tried sidux recently, it does make a far more sensible choice for a desktop system than Debian stable. But I kept on thinking 'what is the point' when Arch has newer packages (latest KDE, etc) and on the whole seems more stable ..
As good as apt-get is for installing packages it does not have the flexibility of the arch build system when you want to compile your own software,
21 • @11 (by commenter at 2010-04-12 16:09:47 GMT from Brazil)
Thanks for the tip, megadriver.
I believe it would do the job but it seems it can't recreate the packages when localepurge has deleted files from it.
Since I have a small disk I will have to keep localepurge.
22 • RE: 14 about printers (by KimTjik at 2010-04-12 16:14:42 GMT from Sweden)
Unfortunately it depends more on manufacturers than Linux. The opposite would be good, since stirring up some commotion could solve the issue! ;)
The Epson printer is probably this one: http://www.openprinting.org/printer/Epson/Epson-Stylus_Photo_700
It should work without issues. The Canon one, in usual Canon, manner I couldn't even find. Canon might be a cheep and good option on Windows, but they're a bit infamous for not being open enough to have good Linux support.
No big deal nowadays though, since even Lexmark has started to give 100% Linux support for all their printers. Hence the safe list is getting longer.
23 • RE: Sidux vs Arch (by Snow at 2010-04-12 16:27:50 GMT from United States)
A great question. To me, the main difference between Arch and Sidux is the installation. Sidux is distributed as a Live CD and installs a full KDE destkop and application suite in 5 minutes. Arch (as you know) is a minimal installer that gives you a blank slate for your choice of desktop environment and applications.
Neither approach is superior in my opinion, but 'the point' is that they serve different niches. I am typing this from Arch on my work computer, but on a laptop I use less often, I installed sidux because it was quick and no hassle.
24 • Sidux and Arch. (by Old Timer at 2010-04-12 16:37:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
I use to have Sidux installed on most of my machines, and it worked fairly well, fast enough and plenty of functionality.
The Sidux site is good and there's lots of info, altho I wasn't too impressed with the lack of multimedia setup, at the time.
The problem I had was, when they were part way thru upgrading Xfce and had released some packages to the repos but not all. My own fault, I should have been more careful, but I ended up with a broken Xfce install.
Arch, imho, is better more up to date. I haven't tried any of the newer graphic installers but 6 months ago they sucked, shame, if the installer was more like MEPIS's one they'd have a much larger audience (and yeah I know I can do it manually but I prefer a simple, quick X based installer)
I keep coming back to AntiX, it installs in 5-10 mins, and works straight out of the box.
25 • go sid-ux (by f on 2010-04-12 16:37:54 GMT from Brazil)
"wanna walk? be unstable."
26 • be sid-ux (by f at 2010-04-12 16:47:01 GMT from Brazil)
"wanna walk? go unstable."
27 • Linux Gaming (by Jason on 2010-04-12 17:05:01 GMT from United States)
i triped over this game called Hedgewars, completely free and works for linux. if you ever like the Worms series give it a go. As far as linux and gaming goes, it all seems to be the emulation of various home consoles and arcade machine. DOSBox works well, Virtual Box is awesome, other like SDLMAME, GMAMEUI, and HuGo are just fun to emulate. Also i have no problem running games like Quake 3 Arena (or Live) or Doom 3 in WINE. but thats a windows emulator but i heard that id Software has decided to drop linux from in releases.
28 • sidux (by jyp on 2010-04-12 17:06:16 GMT from Canada)
I have been running sidux on many machines (desktops and laptops) for more then two years now and I wouln't consider running anything else (as many, I tried the 'buntus in the past). Fast, solid, latest Debian stuff, great community, great support, direct access to the devs, fabulous manual, the list could go on. But ...
One must agree to read and learn a little; one must not be afraid of using the cli: after all, typing a command is not that difficult! I am quite a noob but always got support of the highest quality on the sidux forum or irc. People in the sidux community are ready to spend a lot of energy to help; it is just a matter of minimum respect to listen to their advices and go by the few rules that insure a fabulous system.
sidux nec plus ultra
29 • Arch (by Jason on 2010-04-12 17:08:03 GMT from United States)
ive distrohopped for the last 2 years are so and found that Arch Linux was my favorite. nothing like a rolling release.
30 • re# 23 24 (by Werewolf on 2010-04-12 17:18:24 GMT from Romania)
Arch's installer is not "minimal" ... is ncurses based :D
and imo ... this is not a problem. I'm totally agree with KISS, i don't mind modifing some config filles. And why a fancy installer??? how often do you install it, since it is a rolling distro?
they don't have a live cd? so what? try installing it in a VM and if it works, try to install on your rig.
IMO, the biggest drawback for Arch is that they don't give the chance to install a minimalistic X desktop from de install cd (i mean Xorg + a vm like openbox or something lite).
but forks appeared to fil that gap: just look at Chackra and Archbang : live CD + a DE
btw, i'm not an arch fanboi... but for me it is one of the best that i've tried
31 • Sidux (by Atheist at 2010-04-12 17:21:35 GMT from Italy)
never without SMXI !!!
I do not know what happens in the community....
but i NEVER USE SIDUX WITHOUT SMXI !!!
32 • RE 15 (by Jesse at 2010-04-12 17:39:10 GMT from Canada)
It's probably fair to say that you and I have had different experiences and views on packaging software for Linux and supporting Linux users. Whether you think the different kernel/library/package format is a real concern or a red herring, as you put it, will likely vary a lot from experience.
I maintain(ed) a number of projects for Linux and one of them has only had about three or four distro-specific patches applied over the past five years. That's a pretty good record. Another one gets a fairly regular stream of distro-specific bug reports and patches, around one every few months. Which is a pain.
Outside of my own developing experience, there are a number of other projects that have hit distro/library/kernel -specific problems. Three of them off the top of my head:
UQM - would crash on Red Hat because of the back-ported 2.6 kernel features to 2.4.
k3b - broke around kernel 2.6.8, resulting in a work-around
mplayer - has a max-volume issue current open for just Fedora and related distros
And those are open source packages which are built and shipped by the distro (or in the case of mplayer, by close third-parties solely targeting the distro). When you get into closed source (as most big-name games are) or if you're packaging software yourself, it can get more complicated because "try this and re-compile" isn't an option the support desk can try.
So, yes, it's not as big an issue as some might make it out to be, but it's still a problem many developers run into.
33 • Why Lubuntu (by grindstone at 2010-04-12 17:47:51 GMT from United States)
Still don't understand why there even _is_ a Lubuntu project when U-lite (formerly ubuntu lite) with LXDE has existed for a long time ???
Anyone know? Thanks.
34 • sidux (by Deep on 2010-04-12 17:59:23 GMT from India)
sidux is a great distro, Finest manual. A forum where quite a few developers participate.
Installs fast, boots fast, shuts down fast. Good hardware support.
sidux is not for absolute beginners and not for the distro-hopper addicts.
I have been running sidux on all 3 machines, even on the latest laptop with W7.
Expect the replies to be crisp and straight at times, learn how to use as a serious user, and you will just love it.
35 • Sidux, Arch and things (by davemc on 2010-04-12 18:01:22 GMT from United States)
"Anyway try sidux....you shortly will forget any...buntos!"
No, you wont. The *buntu's have a very special place in the Linux world, and that wont just go away and is not likely to be forgotten regardless of the Distro your on. Everything will either be compared to it or against it because they are one of the very few top dog distro's.
Sidux is a quaint little distro that happily serves a few. I do agree that your better off sticking with pure Debian stable/testing/unstable because you learn more.
Sidux can not be compared to Arch in any way as the two projects are completely dissimilar in almost every way possible, other than that they both use a Linux Kernel. Arch's user base is significantly larger and the support structure is on par with that as well. Arch has no sympathy for noobs and there is no hand holding - at all, and the website picks no bones about the fact that the distro is for intermediate to advanced level users only. It is however an excellent Distro to learn Linux though because its either a sink or swim proposition, and I have never known anyone that actually takes the time to learn and read to fail at it.
36 • Thanks (by Mark Jaxx on 2010-04-12 18:05:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just wanted to say thanks for distrowatch weekly its great !
37 • siduz (by zygmunt on 2010-04-12 18:09:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have an installed copy of sidux from about 3 years ago, which I have updated on a regular basis using the recommended apt-get upgrade and apt-get dist-upgrade. I found the upgrade path not to be entirely trouble free from time to time with some unresolved issues that I could only solve by deleting and re-installing various packages, Fortunately I seem to have done the right thing under the circumstances, on more than one occasion, and managed to keep the system integrated. For sure I do not know enough about the intricacies of apt-get, but it manually seemed to do sensible things when a resolution issue cropped up for which there was no apparent automatic way round. I not sure every user would end up with a satisfactory outcome. Anyway It looks like a bit of a gamble to run sidux. For instance the kaffeine TV streamer broke under the change to KDE4.x. The sidux of course is still going after three years of updating/upgrading. Quite a feat after some particularly massive and time consuming upgrades, I take my hat off to the sidux team!! Install once only.
38 • Re #13 (by Anonymous Penguin at 2010-04-12 18:10:04 GMT from Switzerland)
In German it is common to adapt trademarks to the German orthography. Therefore newspapers and magazines write ‘Open Office’ instead of ‘OpenOffice’, ‘Meteo Schweiz’ instead of ‘MeteoSchweiz’, ‘Open Suse’ instead of ‘openSUSE’, or ‘Die Zeit’ (newspaper from Germany) instead of ‘DIE ZEIT’. (You adapt the word ‘SUSE’ because you pronounce the word like ‘Suse’ and not like ‘S-U-S-E’. That’s just another rule.) Strangely it seems that ’iPod’ as well as other trademarks from Apple don’t have to meet this rule … It would only be correct to write ‘I-Pod’.
39 • Red Star Linux (by Sam on 2010-04-12 18:13:53 GMT from United States)
...and in related news, developers are hard at work on "Wing-nut Crazy Land Linux." Next in the pipeline? "Alaska Moosiah Tea Bag Linux."
40 • Games (by Olivier at 2010-04-12 18:14:28 GMT from France)
Nice answer about games on Linux. As a games developer myself, I'm wondering if there's a way to make a living of open-source games…
Also the current state of 3D gfx under Linux isn't helping, but it's getting better (I hope.)
41 • Re: 33 • Why Lubuntu (by Anonymous at 2010-04-12 18:35:57 GMT from Europe)
Probably because the U-Lite project is not very active -- according to Distrowatch their last release candidate is from 2008-08-27 ...
42 • Trying on sidux - rolling releases (by Alex on 2010-04-12 19:38:51 GMT from Jordan)
Anyone considering themselves serious about Linux is well advised to give Arch a fair try, you absolutely owe it to yourselves. Everything else including sidux pales in comparison.
43 • Re: 41 Why Lubuntu (by grindstone at 2010-04-12 19:39:44 GMT from United States)
Fair enough, thanks, you're right--it doesn't look remotely active unless you dig a bit. I did find something maybe 10 months newer about how to make one beginning with a jaunty mini-install.
sudo dpkg -i nemo-ulite-keyring_0.9-0ulite1~ppa1_all.deb
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install ulite-desktop
I maybe should have rephrased my wonder as a wish that the various LXDE-flavored *buntus might find a way to work together...wattOS, Lubuntu, U-lite, and whomever else. They are all trying to achieve a very useful thing and it seems like they all could use some help. I would have thought that however Lubuntu became official would have tried to include people working toward similar things where possible but I don't know anything about the process.
I sincerely wish them all well and thank them for their work.
44 • Which is (are) the best distro(s) … (by Anonymous at 2010-04-12 19:40:35 GMT from United States)
… for an intermediate Linux user (no beginner but no expert either) that
– likes a distro that just works,
– doesn’t want to spend hours in installing and maintaining a distro,
– likes if the software allows you to configure it but also provides reasonable defaults,
– likes the latest but stable (!) software,
– is not afraid of the console, ;-)
– doesn’t want to upgrade every day the whole system resp. the whole installed software,
– doesn’t like software that hides what it does,
– doesn’t want to miss aptitude (only if there is a similar package manager or even a better one), ;-)
– doesn’t like bloated and slow software and
– doesn’t like KDE-centric distros?
At the moment I’m running Debian stable (since over three years now) but I’d like to change mainly because much software I use is a bit too outdated. Should I change to Debian sid, Arch, Ubuntu (with minimal installation), Fedora or to any other distro? I tried openSUSE and Kubuntu in past but didn’t like these distros at all, manly because they are too bloated and too unstable.
45 • Re #44 (by Pera at 2010-04-12 20:08:36 GMT from Serbia)
Try Arch,you won't be disappointed.
46 • Re: Which is (are) the best distro(s) (by Snow at 2010-04-12 20:10:03 GMT from United States)
Keep Debian Stable and add newer versions of the apps you need from backports.
Or go to Debian Testing (currently Squeeze).
47 • AbiWord and Linux (by LLR on 2010-04-12 20:11:14 GMT from Hungary)
If I remember correctly, Caitlyn Martin in one of her earlier review has mentioned of using AbiWord. Caitlyn, if I may use this occasion to drow on your experience, and seek your advice.
AbiWord seems to be a nice little wordprocessor that has Linux as well as Windows versions, and supposedly it is multilingual. For windows, I have set it up using more than one dictionary. But, it seems, it is hardwired to using only the English dictionary for spellchecking. When I try to write in Hungarian, regardless that I switch the keyboard language entry to Hungarian, and use the Hungarian keyboard, each word is underlined with wavy red line indicating incorrect spelling. In the general menu, I cannot see any language setting, neither is any sign of it among the spellchecking entries. In the Windows version, the program perhaps could read the language setting of the keyboard, but it doesn't do so. And, even if it did, it still would be desirable if one could request the program to use a different dictionary for a marked-up expression, sentence, or paragraph that happen to be a quotation in a foreign language.
In the Linux operating systems, a further complication is that there is no obvious counterpart of the Windows' keyboard language setting. While it is perfectly fine for me to communicate with the operating system in English, if I wish to write in Hungarian, however, I liked to set the keyboard entry to Hungarian. I do not understand how such a fundamental feature is missing from Linux, or hidden deep in an unrecognizable location. Without detailed documentation some simple issues like this can be a mayor headache.
I am basically a paper-n-pencil type of a person. Handling more than one language keyboard entry with grace and accuracy occasionally can be a challenge. Therefore, one of the most desirable features of a wordprocessor for me is spellchecking. I would greatly appreciate if you could point to some documentation, or configuration settings to deal with the appropriate spellchecking in AbiWord, and could tell how to approach the language setting of the keyboard entry in Linux. Or if it is distro dependent, at least in those few distros that you are the most familiar with.
48 • to 44 (by Spike at 2010-04-12 20:15:30 GMT from United States)
49 • sidux good and bad (by Fred Bloggs at 2010-04-12 20:24:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have used sidux for approx 2 years after using PClinuxos (Excellent but slower and not good for latest hardware).
Use smxi then it makes sidux a lot more usable just don't tell anyone!
Very fast (The installer completes a full install in the same time Vista needs to load!)
Excellent with new hardware.
Very stable as long as you check for issues before you upgrade.
Regular upgrades (you don't have to do every one)
Forums members often very helpfull.
Command line updating
Only "Free" software so you need to muck around with smxi to get everything doing stuff that you can do out of the box with PCLinuxos or Mint.
Icedove and Iceweasel etc are not identical to Thunderbird and Firefox no matter what anyone tells you and are often months behind the current versions.
If you have trouble with a non supported package then posts on the sidux forum tend to just get closed so hard to find help.
Not suitable for newbies unless you are hardcore geek.] with lotas of learning time
Why do I use it?
Speed, reliability, compatibility with latest hardware.
Many thanks to the developers and supporters.
50 • Suggestions for Which is (are) the best distro(s) (by Fred at 2010-04-12 20:26:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
PCLinuxos, Mint, Puppy,
51 • @44 (by derf at 2010-04-12 20:28:06 GMT from United States)
Don't change something that is working, stay with Debian stable! Unless you really need a change respectively more up to date software, upgrade your system to Sid:
* change your /etc/apt/sources.list:
deb <mirror URI> lenny main contrib non-free
deb-src <mirror URI> lenny main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates main contrib non-free
deb <mirror URL> unstable main contrib non-free
deb-src <mirror URI> unstable main contrib non-free
# deb http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates main contrib non-free
# deb-src http://security.debian.org/ lenny/updates main contrib non-free
(There are no security updates in Debian Sid.)
* run "aptitude update"
* upgrade to Sid: "aptitude full-upgrade" or "aptitude full-upgrade -f"
* run "dpkg --configure -a"
* finally "aptitude purge '~c'" will delete residual config data of packages that aren’t used anymore
52 • RE: post 44 (by Anonymous at 2010-04-12 20:30:08 GMT from United States)
53 • RE 44, 50, 52 (by Tuks at 2010-04-12 20:38:51 GMT from United States)
@ 50 and 52: You make me laughing! Mint is definitively nothing for "intermediate Linux users". BTW: How many package management tools does Mint provide? Four or five? Or even more? Doesn't seem to be bloated at all ... ^^
An alternate Ubuntu install doesn't seem to be a bad idea. See http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20081215 for further informations. Otherwise I'll recommend you to stay with Debian.
54 • RE 47 (by Anonymous Penguin at 2010-04-12 21:05:44 GMT from Switzerland)
> In the general menu, I cannot see any language setting, neither is any sign of it among the spellchecking entries.
Try: ‘Tools → Set language’. This should help.
> … it still would be desirable if one could request the program to use a different dictionary for a marked-up expression, sentence, or paragraph that happen to be a quotation in a foreign language.
As far as I know this is not possible in Abiword unfortunately. But you could try to convince Abiword developers (http://www.abisource.com/developers/) that such a function would be very handy.
> In the Linux operating systems, a further complication is that there is no obvious counterpart of the Windows' keyboard language setting.
What Linux Distribution do you use? Ubuntu? Mandriva? Do you use KDE or Gnome? This is important because there exist many keyboard changing tool in GNU/Linux world. If you use Gnome (e.g. if you use Ubuntu), you can change the keyboard layout under ‘System → Preferences → Keyboard’ and then ‘Layouts’. (See: http://rajaseelan.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/gnome_keyboard.jpg)
55 • sidux install problems. (by Chris H on 2010-04-12 21:42:33 GMT from United States)
If you need a disk check the first boot after your install,
you probably didn't set your time zone
on the sidux install disk boot screen.
Press F3 and set your timezone before sidux boots.
Also suggested by the sidux people,
Press F5 and select MD5SUM to get your install disk checked
If the install disk shows a logon screen,
something is wrong. Go back and fix it.
Also, I use the smxi script,
which the sidux people don't support.
I like sidux; have it installed on all of my machines.
56 • Linux Games (by Not Bob at 2010-04-12 22:25:22 GMT from United States)
#15 hit it correctly.
The only distro specific bugs are from those Distro's that attempt to patch/hack something that doesn't need to be done (No reason to fix what is not broken), yet they do it anyways. Not to fuel yet another distro war, I'll leave the names out.
The difference between this and what Jesse stated in #32, is that those packages that Jesse talked about link to system libraries - screwed up, distro specific patched/hacked libraries. Games are statically compiled so they take the uneducated distro packager out of the equation.
#15 also hit the stupid nail on the head. Some Linux users are the worse kind of stupid. They _think_ they are smart, or more knowledgeable, when in fact they are just ignorant fools. Top that off with a sense of entitlement, and it's no wonder companies don't want to support a user base like that. The sad part is, it's not one or two bad apples that ruined the bunch - half the basket is spoiled.
Supporting indie games is nice if you like the game. But don't run out and buy a half-assed game just because it has a Penguin logo next to the buy button. This will only encourage more half assed games to come out. World of Goo is not half assed though, it's quite nice :)
Add to that these top quality games
Frictional Games (Penubra, Amnesia)
Puppy Games (Titan Attacks, Droid Wars)
Basilisk Games (Eschalon Series)
On the commercially published front -
Don't forget LGP
LGP does not just create an installer with some directX wrapper. These are complete ports to native Linux. Their prices ARE high (IMO), but if you like the game, and it's good, the price is not TOO high. The more titles they sell, the more titles they can bring over, and the lower the prices will get. I personally can not wait for Bandits to be finished, and will gladly fork over the cash for 3 copies for some fun family carnage.
57 • re: 47 (by fernbap at 2010-04-12 22:32:00 GMT from Portugal)
install crunchbang statler and build from there.
It's debian testing with a lot of work already done (and well done).
58 • Re: 44 (by PP at 2010-04-12 23:20:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
I know exactly what you are talking about. I'd say Crunchbang or minimal Ubuntu. Or perhaps up to Debian Testing, or Mint? But I'm writing this from Crunchbang, and it has delivered exactly the list you wrote down...
59 • Games (by Jesse at 2010-04-12 23:21:49 GMT from Canada)
"The difference between this and what Jesse stated in #32, is that those packages that Jesse talked about link to system libraries - screwed up, distro specific patched/hacked libraries. Games are statically compiled so they take the uneducated distro packager out of the equation."
I agree.... most of the time. One of the games you mention as a top quality game further down in your post is Neverwinter Nights. I absolutely loved NWN, it's a great way for RPG fans to kill time. Sadly, it stopped working on my machines a few years back. It installed and ran fine on some distros and then was incompatible with newer versions on the same hardware. Alas, I had to give it up. Which goes to show games compiled by educated packagers can still fall victim to the upgrade treadmill.
60 • Gaming on Linux (by Andrew at 2010-04-12 23:26:25 GMT from Australia)
A bit of a better answer to the gaming on linux question:
In brief: There's HEAPS of options and so long as you can roll up your sleeves, there's plenty of gaming to be had on Linux :)
61 • Setting language to Hungarian in Abiword (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-12 23:32:30 GMT from United States)
I am assuming you have enchant, aspell, and aspell-hu installed. If not you will need to add those packages.
#47: On a document-by document basis:
In the Tools menu:
Tools -> Set Language. Choose the language from the list and check the Make Default For Document box. The click Close.
To set the default language you need to edit the normal template. By default this is located in /usr/share/abiword-2.8/templates/ SAs root, simply copy normal.awt-hu_HU to normal.awt and you're done. If this is a multi-user machine and you only want your account to be in Hungarian you can copy the template file to ~/AbiSuite/normal.awt instead.
I hope this helps.
62 • Setting default keyboard layout to Hungarian (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-12 23:36:08 GMT from United States)
Setting the default keyboard in Linux is no harder than in Windows. However, it is slightly different in each UI. Which distro and version are you running? What UI: KDE, GNOME, Xfce or something else?
Please disregard #57. You do not need to change distributions and you certainly don't want to be running alpha development code. With all due respect to fernbap that is incredibly bad advice.
63 • NWN (by Not Bob at 2010-04-12 23:52:39 GMT from United States)
NWN still works on our Slackware systems (12.0/.1, 13.0/-current) both 32bit and 64bit.
Three things I can think of that could be different between Slackware and other distros. No PAM, (thank $DIETY) no Pulse Audio, no patch repo.
NWN has a known issue with Pulse Audio, as do most other applications that need to output sound :) Installation was simple. Plop in the DVD, execute the install script, type in the key codes, everything works without a hitch.
They way I look at things. If it works in (C)LFS and/or Slackware, but not distro xyz, distro xyz is at fault for deviating from the upstream devs. Worse than that is when a dev uses an unclean system full of *-isms, which make their program(s) only work on that platform.
Which leads to the need of either more segregation between Distro's (no more Linux, but just Ubuntu, just Suse), or a united front (no more Ubuntu, no more Suse, just Linux). A wider segregation between distro's happens every six-nine months as it is, so I'd gamble, a united Linux will never happen.
64 • Good Weekly (by Abhi M on 2010-04-13 00:49:27 GMT from India)
Nice to see featured story on sidux, I was not knowing till now that "s" is small.
Pro-Linux.de is also an interesting project
Waiting for Ubuntu's release keeping fingers corssed
65 • Re: 63 (Not Bob) (by jake at 2010-04-13 02:11:17 GMT from United States)
"They way I look at things. If it works in (C)LFS and/or Slackware, but not distro xyz, distro xyz is at fault for deviating from the upstream devs."
This is one of the best comments I've ever read. It's a truism, along the same lines as "All around, a pig's ass is pork" ... or "A fork works better when the tines are pointed at the food".
"Worse than that is when a dev uses an unclean system full of *-isms, which make their program(s) only work on that platform."
Don't EVEN get me started ... that's not un*x philosophy. At all.
"Which leads to the need of either more segregation between Distro's (no more Linux, but just Ubuntu, just Suse), or a united front (no more Ubuntu, no more Suse, just Linux). A wider segregation between distro's happens every six-nine months as it is, so I'd gamble, a united Linux will never happen."
Again, I agree. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's reality.
 Yes, I'm a cantankerous old fart. Deal with it. ::grmble::
66 • MOPSLinux 7.0, (by forlin at 2010-04-13 05:38:09 GMT from Portugal)
It's been difficult to download the MOPSLinux 7.0 ISO. As mentioned at the Distrowatch announcement, the connection is really very slow. I wander if someone did find an alternate mirror, and could tell us it's location.
67 • sidux and intel wifi (by gnomic at 2010-04-13 05:49:05 GMT from New Zealand)
sidux doesn´t work with Intel wifi out of the box because there is no wifi firmware lurking in /lib/firmware iirc, not just intel but zilch of any kind. Simply grab the relevant firmware, say from some other distro which is not so perversely free, drop it in /lib/firmware, do something like $modprobe -r ipw2200 [for example]; modprobe ipw2200, and then whatever wifi management s/w is included, eg wicd, should cook with gas. Hey you could even install a package from somewhere or other, but running live, the above is probably quicker. In extreme cases you might need to create an interface for the wifi in /etc/network/interfaces with the help of your favourite search engine and/or the fine manual. The reader is assumed to know all about connecting to an access point using whatever encryption scheme may be in place ;-)
68 • red star??? (by pepito on 2010-04-13 06:18:27 GMT from Mexico)
so what's the deal?? is there a difference between the distro here listed as estrella roja (formerly red star) and the north korean version???
or do the reporters simply not check their info???
69 • RE: 66 MOPSLinux 7.0 (by ladislav on 2010-04-13 06:50:49 GMT from Taiwan)
This mirror has the ISOs: ftp://ftp.rpunet.ru/iso/7.0/
70 • #66 MOPSLinux-7.0.x86.iso (by zygmunt on 2010-04-13 06:57:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
I fully concur. 24+ hours to download. The first site went down for some reason. The connection kept dropping out from my second wget site.
I started off using: (the distrowatch given URL)
wget -c http://mopspackages.ru/mirror/iso/MOPSLinux-7.0-x86.iso
This was at about 25kBytes/sec.
and finished up using: (found by "exploring the mirrors")
wget -c ftp://ftp.rpunet.ru/../iso/7.0/MOPSLinux-7.0-x86.iso
This gave me 50kBytes/sec.
The MD5 sum was correct at the end. That is the only other site I found so far.
71 • sidux & arch (by dustybin at 2010-04-13 08:31:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sidux has its roots from a live cd background- hence the "out of the box" set up. Arch started from scratch with the "do it yourself" attitude.
Once installed and set up however- the two distros are still as i said:
brothers from another mother.
Rolling release, super fast, not for noobs- require effort to keep up to date- and both teach the user about the system which they are using.
I agree that the sidux community is clicky and intolerant to any methods they do not agree with. Arch communtiy does not have this attitude problem.
72 • for #44 -- Re: Which is (are) the best distro(s) (by anonymous at 2010-04-13 10:08:06 GMT from United States)
I've been using sidux because it is Debian Sid, which has more recent software versions. Have never tried Arch, so I can't compare.
Regardless of what you want to try, you can always set up a separate partition of around 10-12GB of disk space for each distro or each new release to try before wiping out your older installation. That way, your older installed and working partition(s) can be a sort of backup while you customize the new release, or new distro.
The main thing with Debian Sid repository is that it is updated very often, some 4 times a day from what I read. So sometimes packages may get out of sync. To work around that, you may want to try the -d option of apt-get to "download only", so you can grab all the package dependencies before those got changed from the repositories:
apt-get -d install
### make sure it got all the packages downloaded before install without the -d option
similarly for "apt-get -d upgrade", or "apt-get -d dist-upgrade", but the potential problems include all the graphics apps and libraries like X, KDE, LDXE, GNOME... Doing so while those apps are running may cause problems so the sidux folks insist that this should be done in run-level 3 (without any X apps running). Even then, sometimes some of the dependencies for them are not resolved properly in the repositories when you run these commands because of the constant changes in the repositories themselves.
I did an
apt-get -d upgrade
once or twice and got problem with X not able to start afterward. Tried it again a couple of times (within a day or two when I got time) and it worked again. Just a cautionary tale for those who are not familiar with Debian Sid. Always have a spare partition with a working installation for "emergency use", and don't upgrade the system if you must use it within a couple of days for important work.
I don't upgrade, or update anything until I think I need to get a newer version every few weeks, particularly relating to security (web browser, SSL libs, SSH, shorewall...)
If you don't like KDE in sidux, they have LXDE liveCD, if you install it, you can get whatever window manager you want to use directly from Debian Sid repositories.
73 • @ 70 • #66 MOPSLinux-7.0.x86.iso - by zygmunt (by Forlin at 2010-04-13 10:11:16 GMT from Portugal)
I also started using the URL given by Distrowatch, and at certain point I found it was d/loading at about 2 or 3 kBytes/sec for me. By that time, I checked a couple of other mirrors, but some were not available, others only had the RC2 available. So your comment is a good new, thanks a lot for it.
74 • antiX new release (by n00bian at 2010-04-13 10:54:21 GMT from Finland)
I spent yesterday looking for a distro that doesn't require huge amounts of RAM, and while searching I learned that the MEPIS-based antiX has just made a fresh release.
"12 April 2010
antiX-M8.5 'Marek Edelman' released
9 months since the release of antiX-M8.2, the antiX-team announce that antiX MEPIS 8.5 'Marek Edelman' - a fast, light, flexible and complete desktop and livecd based on SimplyMEPIS and Debian Testing - is now available in full and base versions (686 and 486 kernel)."
I tested the new antiX release and it seems to be a very light-weight distro, perfect for old computers.
75 • Re 44 (by glyj at 2010-04-13 13:32:46 GMT from France)
It's a good option to use unstable branch of Debian.
If you like Debian, this is a good thing to stay with it.
You could also have a look at mandriva. Launch a One CD and have a look ;-)
76 • Re 44 (by Dave at 2010-04-13 14:18:54 GMT from Canada)
I concur with those that recommended Debian Testing (not unstable), Crunchbang or sidux. Leverage your Debian knowledge, but branch out into something a bit more up-to-date than Lenny. BTW, it's not long until Debian Squeeze gets released as stable, is it?
My best recommendation on "just works" is Mandriva 2010. If you want something a little more hands on, give Unity Linux (based on Mandriva) a look. It appears to be in formative stages, but I hope to give it a try soon.
77 • Sidux & Arch (by davemc on 2010-04-13 15:40:01 GMT from United States)
"71 • sidux & arch (by dustybin at 2010-04-13 08:31:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sidux has its roots from a live cd background- hence the "out of the box" set up. Arch started from scratch with the "do it yourself" attitude.
Once installed and set up however- the two distros are still as i said:
brothers from another mother."
The roots of brothers have to have a common genetic base, unless they are adopted or something like that.
Sidux = Debian unstable with a custom kernel. Debian is its base (mother and father).
Arch = Not Debian. Arch was created from no base project. It is its own base.
Sidux uses apt-get for package management and updates, has no build system for source (other than GCC tools), no community base user repo's aside from whatever its parent Debian offers. In fact, Sidux is not really even a unique project now is it? Its just Debian Unstable with a custom kernel and a few custom build scripts designed to create a user friendly Debian Unstable cutting edge environment. The community support is nearly non existent with Sidux from my own experience. They are indeed cliq'ish, as many have indicated (also true of the Debian community overall, in some cases).
Arch is a completely unique Distro in that it is its own root. Package management is accomplished via Pacman with its own ports style repo's. It uses its own build scripts and even its boot processes are different than what Debian/Sidux uses. Arch has its own build service for customized source packaging and source building different than how Debian does it. It has its own unique user repository. The Arch community is exceedingly open and helpful, but the attitude taken is that you should not ask for help without first doing everything you can to help yourself. There is no comparison because the two projects are totally different in every way possible. You could say though that Gentoo and Arch are brothers from another father, and that might be getting closer to the mark, but Arch and Debian? NO!
78 • Re 44 (by Dave at 2010-04-13 16:23:33 GMT from Europe)
> doesn’t want to upgrade every day the whole system resp. the whole installed software
So Debian Sid is definitely nothing for you -- there are about 100 software updates every two days! (And I suppose that there's about the same amount of updates in Arch. But please disabuse me if I am wrong.) I'm using Sid on my netbook because I had some problems with the X server in stable (Lenny), presumably the problems are due to my special screen resolution (1024x600). On my main machine (with a more usual screen resolution of 1280x800) I use Debian stable. I recommend you to either stay with Debian stable or to try a minimal Ubuntu installation. Probably Crunchbang is not bad either but I can't tell you cos I never used it. I've also never tried Arch but I've heard from quite often that it is more difficult to install and that Portage is not nearly as comfortable to use than Aptitude is. Mandriva is also a great distro but I would rather recommend it to newbies.
79 • sidux community support (by jyp on 2010-04-13 17:21:32 GMT from Canada)
[quote] The community support is nearly non existent with Sidux from my own experience. They are indeed cliq'ish ...[/quote]
I strongly disagree. I am more of a newbie than an expert and the sidux community support have been top-notch, both in the forums and on the irc. It is interesting indeed to be able to converse with the people who actually created sidux: they know what they are talking about.
But, as I mentionned in a former post, one must be willing to learn and one must not expect the developpers to cater to idiotic behaviour. The manual is fantastic and getting better all the time; just read it first and ask questions after. The sidux community will go out of his way to help.
After using sidux 2 years, I am very happy to have found this gem and very grateful to the community for supporting me.
80 • RE: 78 • Re 44 (by Anonymous Penguin at 2010-04-13 18:08:48 GMT from Switzerland)
Could it be that the problems you mentioned aren’t due to your special screen resolution of your netbook but because of some nasty bugs in Debians X server package(s) that the won’t be fixed in stable? There are some bugs in ‘xserver-xorg-video-intel’ (but also in some other packages) that the package maintainers don’t seem to fix because the problem supposedly is hard to fix and doesn’t exist in unstable. Probably I’m a bit unjust to these maintainers but sometimes it seems that they don’t want to fix these bugs because they use unstable and therefore these problems don’t affect them (and it is too arduous for them to install stable and verify what causes the bug).
81 • blah blah blah (by SPP at 2010-04-13 18:17:37 GMT from United States)
Arch is unique. We get it. The article is about sidux.
82 • AbiWord and Linux (by LLR on 2010-04-13 19:07:24 GMT from Hungary)
Thanks for Kaitlyn and #54. I have known about the Tool->Set Language, but that as useful as the stickshift in a toy car. More specifically, it has two eigenvalues: no proofing, and English regardless of the specific language setting for which a dictionary is marked being available. If I insist on, sometimes it may show that the default language for the document is Hungarian. Typing one single word, however, proves that it is a false statement. The only unanswered question remains what the program is doing with all those unusable dictionaries?!
As far as the installed Linux distros concerned, presently I have for testing ArtistX that soon will go due to extremely poor readability, Fedora-Omega with way too high change-rate, openSUSE that is needlessly overcomplicated, PCLinuxOS: somewhat crude, but seems to work, and Mandriva that I have not used enough to qualify. These particular distros are not in my primary selection, rather the ones for which Internet access configuration in a home environment is available and works. Linux Mint and SimpleMEPIS although have the required configuration facility, but it does not work. I would like Calculate if I could configure at least one of my printers of HPLJ5MP and Epson Stylus Photo R285. Unfortunately, many distros are for some networked environments only like offices, college facilities, etc. I wish that the reviewer of such a distro would state that fact. And, some distros are for older computers that even cannot be tested on a machine with PATA. On the top of my priority list is exactly one distro like that, namely, Poseidon.
As far as the desktop environment concerned, to me, the simpler is the better. For a while I used to use OLVWM. Its readability was somewhat better than the rest that time, and I learned its menu configuration.
When I previously brought up the Internet configuration option for DSL connection, someone advised me to get a router. As a result of a lengthy search for Linux configurations of a router, I found a properly worded question on the usage of a specific program on a forum with no answer. That tells me that even if it exist, not too many people know about it, or can refer to its documentation as how to use it. Most reference is connected with the usage of a server as a router. May I hope that one day someone will write a Linux book specifically for the home environment despite that since the start of Linux no one has done it yet? It is not impossible, only unfortunately very improbable.
83 • Good gaming links - also RE:79 (by morgan on 2010-04-13 19:18:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
There are some interesting moves in the Linux gaming world (not as many as there should be..) Primal Rage looks incredible
Here are some good Linux gaming links
And emulation : http://linuxemu.retrofaction.com/
RE: 79: With Arch you tend to get a few daily updates, sometimes if a major library has been updated (i.e openssl) you will get a fair few.
The major updates are when KDE is updated, with arch you usually can access it within hours of its announcement on kde,org.
Having tried Sidux/Debian unstable there are a lot of updates on this.
84 • correcton (by morgan on 2010-04-13 19:20:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
I didn't mean primal rage, sorry I meant primalcarnage
The Developers have confirmed it runs fine on 64bit Linux!
85 • MOPSLinux, why bother? (by RollMeAway at 2010-04-13 19:26:04 GMT from United States)
Farewell MOPSLinux: "( Dear Friends
With great regret to announce that the company NPO Network "is not going to continue to support the development of distribution MOPSLinux.
All work on the distribution, and providing tech support stopped.
Team regrets this decision of the company and thank you for having all this time with us, with our distribution.
Good luck and good luck!
So, it truly is their Final release.
86 • sidux and updates (by jyp at 2010-04-13 19:38:07 GMT from Canada)
[quote]With Arch you tend to get a few daily updates, sometimes if a major library has been updated (i.e openssl) you will get a fair few.
The major updates are when KDE is updated, with arch you usually can access it within hours of its announcement on kde,org. [/quote]
Same on sidux; there is not usually a great number of updates if you update daily, which is btw not necessary. I usually update about once a week and the number of packages is not a problem since I am always issuing the same basic command _apt-get dist-upgrade_; it usually takes a few minutes.| sidux is a rolling distro; of course, if you are on a very slow connection, there is probably some inconvenience.
You have a point concerning major updates like KDE though. With sidux, we have to wait for the new versions to hit sid. But there is an advantage to that: the packages have been vetted by the Debian team and then the sidux team; in two years of using sidux, I seldom encountered any breakage. ;-)
87 • Unfriendly, arrogant support forum (by UcTo on 2010-04-13 21:01:33 GMT from Germany)
Unfortunately, I too must you about the very unhappy experiences with the support on sidux' IRC channel.
devil, towo and some of the other senior sidux guys treat newcomers, especially those with some beginners problems, very unfair, rude, and, even worse, seem to have lots of fun doing so. Most conversation is in German, which is fine for me.
I'm using sidux for years, before the it's anchestor Kanotix.
My conclusion: Technically, sidux is a very fine distro. How the sidux people treat their users, a sheer disaster.
My tip for people considering using sidux: Choose another distro. If you don't mind the sidux guys sneering at you, you might give it a try.
88 • sidux community support (by jyp on 2010-04-13 21:35:59 GMT from Canada)
I must say that my experience on the forums and the irc have been totally different from yours: devil, towo and many others have been very helpful and patient with me.
It is true that conversation in irc is often in german but I feel free to come in and start a subject in english and then people switch to english on that topic. It is quite natural that german people are more comfortable in their native language; it is also clear that the irc supports german and english, so no surprise there.
My tip for people considering sidux: don't miss it, try it for a while. If the waters of the forums and/or irc are too rough for you, then you can always land somewhere else ;-).
89 • #87 (by Anonymous at 2010-04-13 23:06:05 GMT from United States)
lol, what a wuss, ever been to #debian, #sidux is 100 times more friendly
90 • RE: 90 - what does it prove? (by KimTjik at 2010-04-13 23:34:36 GMT from Sweden)
It made me laugh at least, because the argument looks very odd: it's good because that one is worse. I hope that logic is only applied to these less important matters in life.
91 • ready to use distro (by arif at 2010-04-14 00:32:14 GMT from Malaysia)
My best recommendation on "just works with preinstall apps" distro is Mandriva from MIB, Fedora comunity remix, Epidemic linux (debian testing).
Epidemic have nice one click installer for newbie.
92 • RE:44 best distro? (by Bobby Hunter on 2010-04-14 02:26:59 GMT from United States)
One option is Debris Linux, the smallest gnome distro available. I ran it for several years until I switched to Mandriva's Xfce edition, which I like better.
93 • sidux (by Glenn Thigpen on 2010-04-14 03:34:23 GMT from United States)
I have been using sidux as my main distribution for a couple of years now. IIt does everything that I want and more. I have never had to ask for help in any of my installations. I really like the fact that it stays compatible with Debian. That is one of the reasons that I never jumped on the Ubuntu bandwagon.
As an aside on the XFCE desktop. I switched to it when KDE 4 first came out and was so sorely lacking. I am not dissing KDE. I just did not want to go through another learning curve trying to find out how everything worked. XFCE does everything I need and more, plus it is very responsive. I expect to be using sidux and XFCE for the forseeable future.
94 • sidux and Debian Sid (by anonymous at 2010-04-14 06:06:00 GMT from United States)
I can handle my own tech problems, mostly with web search. Rarely would I need to ask for help on any forum. Only once I asked on sidux forum because the liveCD ISO image I downloaded kept giving me wrong md5sum several times. The answer was prompt and suggested I try rsync instead of a ftp/http download. Sure enough, rsync saved the day that time and maybe once or twice after that. I suppose I use sidux from its very beginning and haven't had to try anything else. I have tried a couple of other distro once in a while but never got anywhere close to what I already got from sidux. Most other Debian based distro's are based on Debian Stable, or Debian Testing and they don't have the latest releases of apps that I want.
When I changed from Kanotix to sidux, those were for the more recent apps in the Debian Sid repository. Not too long before that RedHat was dropping support for desktop linux, before the introduction of Fedora Core. That was when I was distro hopping and found Knoppix, Damn Small Linux , Musix, Dynebolic, even Linux From Scratch ... I learn much from those and I gravitate toward Debian because of non-corporation, non-commercial approach after RedHat trick and several other corporate Linux folded.
Now I use MIDI for music, and sidux kernel has "high resolution timer" compiled in. I haven't check stock Debian kernel lately so I don't know if Debian kernels even have "high resolution timer" compiled in. sidux save me some hassle of compiling my own kernel for MIDI usage.
I seen some people asking in sidux forum for real-time kernel in sidux before the existence of "hight resolution timer" and the answer was "no", there's no plan for having that feature in the sidux kernel because it can cause lock-up's... Which was a straight forward answer, whether or not the people who ask/request that option/feature wanted to hear is another issue. Even Debian kernel didn't have any such options. So whatever your expectations are of forum and irc support, it may also be how the questions were asked and how some people wanted some hand holding for every baby step.
Talking about forum experience, I was asking something in puppy linux or similar distro about their extension packages. Those were designed to be automatically detected, loaded and run from a liveCD, or liveUSB boot. I was concerned about malicious extension packages, got an answer that I should not worry about it. I wrote back disagree with such lack of concern for security. The whole thread disappeared from their forum. Wonderful don't you think? Sorry I won't touch those with a ten foot pole.
95 • Tihe last breed is painfull (by meanpt at 2010-04-14 09:40:20 GMT from Portugal)
As a precaution I always try and test distros in VirtualBox.
From the BSD stable, none of the openBSD line, including the "parent", installs. So much for all the hype. I now take it as "arrogance". By the way, From the other branch of the family, FreeBSD, did manage to install PC-BSD, wich strugles to work in a 500 MB ram environment. Unfortunately, Ghost BSD isn't installable.
Calculate CLS ("S" for scratch an supposedly the ligher) didn't install neither.
Salix installs but still didn't manage to work around the installation of virtual box guest additions.
And so is the life as it goes on ...
96 • Re: Games (by Sitwon at 2010-04-14 12:57:50 GMT from United States)
Did you figure out why NWN stopped working? Was it missing a dependency? Was it segfaulting?
I understand the distinction between end-user and developer. And if you were simply playing the role of an end user I wouldn't expect you to know how to use tools like ldd or gdb to track down problems. But you're prescribing advice from the perspective of a developer and your article serves to reinforce the myth that Linux is too fragmented for commercial releases. Therefore I must ask you to prove that you've earned the title of Linux Developer and didn't just stick it on your resume because you once opened a Bash script in gedit.
There are a number of commercial software releases that do a good job of targeting multiple distros. Skype, VirtualBox (non-OSE), and the Unreal series come to mind. (Ok, I'm still annoyed at Icculus over UT3.)
I would say that in a lot of cases, one Senior Linux Developer who understands GNU/Linux and not just one specific distribution is all that a project needs to maintain stable binary releases for Linux. When you're intimate with the toolchain from the ground up you become distro agnostic as the variations are often irrelevant.
I generally agree with Not Bob's followups.
I fully stand behind EVE Online's Linux policy: "It works with Wine and here's a how-to, but we don't officially support it. If you have problems, ask on our forums but don't call/email us." This is a perfectly acceptable stance for game publishers to take (so long as their software works, and in the case of Eve it does.)
97 • red star linux (by bugman at 2010-04-14 14:17:46 GMT from United States)
i am typing this from red star linux, it's not a bad distro i could do without the I LOVE DEAR LEADER!!!
wtf, that's not what i meant to type...
i was typing I LOVE DEAR LEADER!!! and it came out I LOVE DEAR LEADER!!!
let me try one more time, every time you try to google I LOVE DEAR LEADER!!! you get results for -- argh, it's doing it again...
well, apart from that one little bug, it's a really great distro, give it a try!
98 • Games on Linux... HA! (by Anonymous at 2010-04-14 19:07:28 GMT from United States)
Nice way to beat around the bush, Jesse... Its a multi-billion dollar industry interested _only_ in making money.
The majority of Linux users do not pay for anything. Why would a game developer that is already tens of millions of dollars in the red spend any more money in porting to a platform that on top of all of its audio and visual problems, still has less than 1% of the desktop? That is a huge business risk for anyone to take.
Even id Software, one of the few studios to consistently support the platform, doesn't pay anyone for their game ports, they are done in the free time of one employee.
99 • Goo! (by Anonymous at 2010-04-15 00:30:22 GMT from United States)
I gladly paid 2D Boy for a job well done. Consoles pretty much make pc-gaming obsolete, anyway.
100 • RE: #44 #50 #72 Debian (by Anonymous at 2010-04-15 04:15:21 GMT from United States)
I've been running a clean Debian Lenny XFCE live install for about a year was up to date until today and today all of a sudden I have 1500 packages including 53 un-installs and they are big libraries. It also wants to install Grub 2 and "boot sequencing to dependency based sequencing" and it won't take no for an answer. I'll going to get all my work done tonight in case it don't come up in the morning. What happened? I did notice a repo was down for a few weeks... will see. I have all my data on a USB just in case.
101 • Command line tutorial distro INX (by RollMeAway at 2010-04-15 04:23:38 GMT from United States)
Anyone interested in learning more about using the command line should try this distro.
It covers complete beginners to seasoned veterans.
A live CD (can be ran in a virtual mode).
It is set up to be usable for most of your basic needs:
Plays videos, browse the web, listen to web radio streams, mail, games etc.
If you don't learn something from this, you must walk on water!
102 • Distro agnostic (by Jesse at 2010-04-15 11:32:12 GMT from Canada)
"Did you figure out why NWN stopped working? Was it missing a dependency? Was it segfaulting?"
Honestly, it's been around five years since I last laid my hands on NWN, so I don't have any specific details for you. If I recall correctly, it was a broken dependency issue. If you do some Google searches you'll no doubt find various forum/blog posts about problems people had.
"Therefore I must ask you to prove that you've earned the title of Linux Developer and didn't just stick it on your resume because you once opened a Bash script in gedit."
I don't want to be offensive about this, but I'm not concerned with how anonymous people on forums view my development skills. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but it's how I see things. If you want to believe my coding experience stops at viewing other people's Bash scripts, that's fine. If someone wants to believe I optimise other people's assembly code in my spare time, that's fine too.
The issue we were discussing was games being ported to Linux, an industry which typically targets end-users. If an end-user puts a disc in their computer and the game doesn't install/run the way it should, they're not going to dig out development tools. The average end-user will return the game for a refund. Whether the problem could be fixed with distro-agnostic developer skills isn't really relevant to the end-user in my opinion.
103 • RE:102, Nothing wrong with that. (by Eddie Wilson on 2010-04-15 12:05:01 GMT from United States)
"If someone wants to believe I optimise other people's assembly code in my spare time, that's fine too."
Optimizing other people's assembly code is a part of the development process. I develop programs for robotics and automation but I'm in no way a Linux developer. It all depends on the field you are in and how your profession looks at things.
On the discussion of sidux, I did run it for a while about a year or two ago. It is a nice distro but not for beginners. If you humble yourself in the forums they will try to help. Par for the course I guess.
104 • sidux Support (by Chris Hildebrandt on 2010-04-15 16:12:35 GMT from Austria)
Thanks everyone for posting their personal experiences with sidux support at our forums and IRC. It's very interesting to read how different those experiences have been. sidux is a fine place for those who accept our limitations in manpower, budget and accepted social behavior, but it might not be the perfect place for those who are not interested in understanding why we did and do sidux, and how we do it. We strive hard to keep our word and actually support day to day what we release and recommend, and need to limit this support to the stuff we use ourselves, know and can handle. That's our promise. We never promised to support virtually everything, and most of our users have no problem accepting that in exchange for a stable supported system.
105 • for #100 (by Anonymous at 2010-04-15 17:22:34 GMT from United States)
That's what you should expect to get with "testing", or "stable" when they push through some new package(s) which have lots of dependencies. I.e. new Xorg, gnome, kde4, openoffice, or when they stage testing to be the next stable.
If you want to stay with Debian Testing, it may be much safer to save what you have by not updating/upgrading anything in your existing installation. Install a new copy of Debian Testing on a separate 10-15GB partition and play with it instead of mucking around with updating/upgrading Debian Testing. I have been through that road before with many other software update/upgrades that fail for no good reasons. Of course, on an older desktop, or laptop, disk space may be an issue with this approach.
With Linux, there is no problem with multiple installations of the same distro release(s), or many different distros on their own partition. Why not make good use of it. With Windows, they have copyrights issues so they try to lock down multiple install on the same machine. Plus they are all brain-dead, assuming C: for everything and only one copy, blah blah blah...
When I read about BSD's a few years back, I wasn't sure if I can install multiple copies of the same BSD, each on its own partition. But Linux was working fine for that and kept me too busy to even look at BSD's.
106 • #82 - Changing keyboard layout revisited (by Caitlyn Martin on 2010-04-15 18:24:27 GMT from United States)
Thanks for responding to me. Simple tools to toggle your keyboard layout between English and Hungarian, or indeed any combination of layouts, are usually part of a desktop enviroment. KDE, GNOME and Xfce all have good ones. I use the panel applet in Xfce to switch between US English, US alternate international (makes typing in French with accents a snap), and Hebrew. If you choose a simple window manager like OLVWM you definitely gain in performance but sacrifice features like keyboard layout switching.
Many distributions have their own GUI tools as well which is independent of desktop. I am completely unfamiliar with either Poseidon or ArtistX and you indicate that you're not going to stick with Fedora so that isn't going to be of help either. FWIW, the Fedora command is system-config-keyboard. HowtoForge has an excellent list of the tools used in some of the most popular distros at: http://www.howtoforge.com/changing-language-and-keyboard-layout-on-various-linux-distributions I know you are not using these distros but I thought others might find the information useful. DistroWatch is very international as I'm sure you've noticed.
From the command line you can use the command xkbmap. The man page is quite straightforward and you should have no problem at all using this from within a terminal window in OLVWM.
In any case, changing keyboard layout is never difficult.
Regarding AbiWord again, the method you want is copying the Hungarian template over the normal template. That will definitely work.
107 • Re:105 Debian (by Anonymous at 2010-04-15 21:47:51 GMT from United States)
I'm the poster of #100. Yes, it is dead this morning (x barfed). But the GRUB 2 upgrade worked and was able to boot OpenGnu 8.04.1 off another partition. But, I'm noticing it has a Repo issue too but I was able to keep current but Firefox is a bit old. I guess I'll reload the CD and try Debian Lenny again. If all else fails I'll give sidux a try.
108 • Transport Tycoon Deluxe (by forlin at 2010-04-15 22:19:17 GMT from Portugal)
Version 1.0 of open source Transport Tycoon Deluxe clone released
"After more than 6 years of development, the OpenTTD developers have announced the availability of version 1.0 of their open source Transport Tycoon Deluxe clone. The urban planning and simulation game clone includes a number of improvements on the original, such as multi-player support and bigger maps.
"OpenTTD 1.0 features maps up to 64 times larger than the originals, multi-player support for up to 255 players and support for in-game downloads of, for example, new scenarios and AIs."
109 • @100, 107 Debian (by RollMeAway at 2010-04-16 01:37:59 GMT from United States)
I run two servers on debian stable. I have experienced 8 upgrades this month.
Sounds like your repos (sources.list) got changed to testing or sid.
If so, no going back now. Re-install or go for sid.
Personally, I have experienced more problems with testing than sid.
I run sidux as my main distro at work. Rarely have any problems.
Notable exceptions were kde3 -> kde4, the intel video driver episode, and grub2.
But, then most all distros had those problems.
I have stopped posting in the sidux forums. Several times I have were negative.
I find a web search solves any problems that occur. I have donated to sidux
and do appreciate the distro.
110 • ops... still another Linux new game (by Forlin at 2010-04-16 03:58:15 GMT from Portugal)
Out of the Park Baseball 11
Well... it's not free. It's even expensive. But Linux needs new games, so I decided to let everybody know about it.
111 • #100, #107 Debian Testing and Unstable (by Anonymous at 2010-04-16 08:17:25 GMT from United States)
It could be that some library dependencies were not in sync the repository at the time you run
which is a list of all currently available packages in the repositories.
Don't wipe that partition yet. If you do decide to go with a new install (I recommend that) you should try to install in a different partition for now.
For the partition that X is having troubble with Debian Testing, you can try a any combination of the following in once a day for a few days to see if it would resolve itself. Take that as a learning experiment.
apt-get update ; apt-get -d dist-upgrade ; apt-get dist-upgrade
Of course, Debian Unstable may have similar issues, too. Anyway, I think sidux folks prefer to run these commands from run-level 3. I did it once or twice and had similar problem with X starting up, I tried again in a day or two and it finally worked again.
112 • Testing or unstable, KDE (by fernbap at 2010-04-16 15:26:36 GMT from Portugal)
I would much appreciate a direct comparizon between basing a distro on testing or unstable.
Obviously, unstable needs to be tested, so distros based on it are a good testing ground, but for your main system, the one you use to work, i wouldn't trust testing.
Unfortunately for me, many distros, such as Sidux, devote their effort on a KDE environment, which i personaly dislike and don't want to use. I find KDE counterintuictive, needing a lot of polish and a missing administration tools (example: installing a theme on gnome is automated and very easy). But hey, that's just my opinion.
That's why i prefer distros having a minimal desktop so that i can build from there. Personaly, i am enjoying Lxde a lot as a lightweight environment. But my working environment is gnome and will probably remain gnome for the foreseable future.
I have 2 OSs installed on my machine, both based on debian testing, one using gnome (for productivity) for my daily work and one using Lxde for handling multimedia, where a light desktop environment really matters. That's the beauty of freedom of choice.
I don't like the rolling release idea as well, as i think that a distro to remain stable needs a freeze from time to time. There is nothing wrong with installing a new version from time to time, because you can place your home folder on a separate partition.
Anyway, these are my 2 cents
113 • @112 Debian (by RollMeAway at 2010-04-16 20:20:48 GMT from United States)
Sounds like you should stay away from testing and unstable. Both are constantly changing, and require daily attention.
Using stable does not mean you cannot use some current apps.
For instance, I install Firefox directly from mozilla, into /opt directory.
If you give your user ownership of /opt, Firefox will update itself as mozilla releases.
Currently at Ver. 3.6.3, where stable's iceweasel is stuck at Ver. 3.0.6.
Specific apps can be installed from unstable as needed.
I enabled the sid repo long enough to install unison-2.32, then disabled the sid repos.
Freedom of choice is great!
Knoppix 6.2 defaults to LXDE and mixes stable, testing, unstable, AND experimental repos. Install this on a spare partition and learn a lot.
114 • @ 112 • Testing or unstable, KDE (by fernbap at 2010-04-16 15:26:36 GMT (by forlin at 2010-04-16 20:24:49 GMT from Portugal)
If you like to test new distros, I'll suggest you Paldo. It's a Gnome environment, but very light. You may appreciate it, or, not, depends on your Linux millage. It may require some CLI knowledge for a few things. It's a mix of a rolling release, on the testing branch, and a three month release, for stable. I used to use the testing, but lately they have been very active on placing new packages, and things stopped working for me. So I went back to stable and it's 5 stars for me. Anyway, if you try it, let us know. There are two reviews shown at it's Distrowatch page. One of them is excelente. The other one, is inútil, in my opinion.
115 • antiX Mepis (by Todd R. at 2010-04-16 20:30:39 GMT from United States)
We just finished testing antiX Mepis on a Toshiba laptop with Intel 985 chipset and 120Gb hard drive and core duo processor.
antiX Mepis wants to be for older computers, but this one is just two years old. Anyway the graphics drag badly.. that is, a symptom we have not seen on other distros and on W7, we move windows around and in antiX there is a long "trail" of windows remnants and the machine slows down for a while.
We pared all the options down to near nothing, not even a wallpaper. To no avail. We don't understand why the graphics are so bad in antiX Mepis and perform very well, and "snappy" and quick in Fedora, Mint and even and old Sabayon DVD.
I was asked to leave the Mepis forums when I asked about it and were accused of being a "troll."
Is there a Intel incompatibility with Mepis distros?
116 • 115 • antiX Mepis and Troll (by anticapitalista on 2010-04-16 20:47:31 GMT from Greece)
Could you post a link to your claim that you were asked to leave the forum and accused of being a troll?
Anyhow, go to the antiX forum and ask for help there, post the output of inxi -F ans maybe someone can help find out what the problem is. It could well be to do with intel compatibility.
117 • IBM info for starters and code-fans (by Jan at 2010-04-16 23:33:51 GMT from Netherlands)
Possibly interesting info for beginners and code-fans.
118 • # 115 Troll? (by gnomic at 2010-04-16 23:54:23 GMT from New Zealand)
Just a few points: what model of Toshiba laptop including the string usually found on the underside of the machine which identifies it among the variants of that particular model - ie the Kamakuza T500 XYZ01 as opposed to the XYZ02 - the components may be quite different; what version of antiX; does the machine really have an Intel 985 chipset as a brief look on the web appears to indicate this was never released?
I'm not aware of Mepis or antiX having a particular problem with Intel video. There has been a problem with many Linux distributions over the past 18 months or so caused in essence as I understand it by Intel tinkering with their drivers and perhaps also changes in Xorg. Symptoms I have seen include machines failing to start X Window or various aberrations while the gui is running.
Anyway this is not really the venue for discussing this problem. As anticapitalista says, off to the antiX forums, and don't forget to check for the answer in existing posts before presenting your issue :-)
119 • RE 112 (by Anonymous Penguin at 2010-04-17 07:41:14 GMT from Switzerland)
Paldo isn’t a bad distro indeed but in my opinions there are a few drawbacks:
* The Community and especially the forum is very inactive.
* UPKG, their package manager, depends on mono.
* There is no differentiation between open source and restricted software. If you prefer free/libre open source software, you have to check each package that is going to be installed (e.g. as dependency).
120 • Re: 102 (by jake at 2010-04-17 08:08:48 GMT from United States)
"Whether the problem could be fixed with distro-agnostic developer skills isn't really relevant to the end-user in my opinion."
I completely disagree. If the developer isn't distro agnostic, s/he's not really trying to reach end-users. Rather, s/he's trying to pump up their distro of choice. How, exactly, does this promote Linux (BSD, whatever), to the GreatUnwashed[tm]?
121 • Re 115 "Trolling & Mepis" (by Brooko at 2010-04-17 10:14:07 GMT from New Zealand)
Hi Todd R
Can you please elaborate re this statement -
I was asked to leave the Mepis forums when I asked about it and were accused of being a "troll."
While I can't speak for the AntiX forum (although I find it extremely unlikely that it could have happened there either) - I do read every single post on the Mepis Forums. I'm both a Mod and an Admin there.
I have not seen your post - and I just searched the board and still cannot find it. Can you please log-in, find the post and send me a link (pm it to me on the forums).
I do wonder if maybe you are confused with another forum or site? If so, perhaps you'd like to offer either a retraction ..... or some proof.
Thanks in advance
122 • RE 120: Stuff for the end user (by Jesse at 2010-04-17 11:50:39 GMT from Canada)
I think you completely misunderstood my post. What I was saying is that if a company distributes a program and that program doesn't work on the end-user's computer, it doesn't matter if someone else _could_ get it working. It doesn't work for the end-user and most people don't have the skills to trouble-shoot. The fact that someone else might be able to get the program working isn't relevant.
So the fact that person X could fix a program because they have development/admin skills doesn't help persons Y and Z who don't have those skills and will likely return the product.
Yes, if the original developer had managed to foresee those problems, then that would help. We agree there. But I was talking about the product post-launch when it's out of the original developer's hands.
123 • Re: 122 (by jake at 2010-04-17 13:35:01 GMT from United States)
I think we're talking orthogonally to each other.
My point was that a properly put together software package shouldn't be distribution-specific. Likewise, specific distributions shouldn't choke on particular packages. Both are, in my mind, examples of sloppy coding and/or packaging, and should have been done away with over ten years ago.
Yes, I know, this is reality, not a dreamworld. I can live with it :-)
124 • good report from another Satellite owner (by Todd R. at 2010-04-17 15:22:58 GMT from United States)
A friend with A-205 Toshiba Satellite 5804 reports good results with the antiX Mepis she installed on a partition on hearing my complaint. "No graphics issues," she said to me this morning.
So, I am going about it as time to look into the reason for antiX poor performance on mine as a reason to just let it go, the other reason? It works very well on my old Gateway PC with only 1.1 Celeron!
This does puzzle me, but I have other linux to use with this one. It is just good to see development going on of distros for old computers.
125 • antiX (by stuckinoregon on 2010-04-17 16:35:01 GMT from United States)
Sounds like something else may be going on there. I have an old Dell C400 with the 830 chip. antiX is about the only distro that actually works really well on that machine. Even the *buntus, Fedoras and mandrivas dont handle the video as well as antiX.
126 • re-installing antiX Mepis (by Todd R. at 2010-04-17 17:41:48 GMT from United States)
I'll re-do it this pm.
Meanwhile the Gateway is rejuvenated with the distro on the icewm, even configured and prettied up a bit with the good tools in the control panel menu. I used to do icewm by hand, but the antiX people provided a ui for that now (been a while since the last antiX Mepis I tried).
The bad time in the forum over there is was the only real negative, because I think the installation got borked at some point otherwise my friend's same machine (slightly newer) with the same core duo and graphics would have been slow as well as mine.
I'll post about how it goes this after noon.
127 • RE: 122-123 (by Landor at 2010-04-17 19:38:45 GMT from Canada)
I have to agree with Jake here about packaging. One of the problems with the scenario is this, which package is at fault? Also, just a side note here, this is another reason to build strictly from source instead of converting packages (last week's topic), there may certainly be distribution-centric problems with said package.
Anyway, to my point. I like to game a bit and have a few FPSs installed. Most of them freeze or boot me at random times. My son on slightly varying hardware had the same issues. Now, if I had only played one specific game and this happened I'd blame the game. Logic dictates that if it's happening across a number of them on two machines it's obviously not the game. I looked into it and found out the culprit was the pile of crap known as pulseaudio. I removed all instances of pulseaudio and installed alsa, my son did the same. Low and behold everything works flawlessly.
This is where I'll jump back to my old rant too and disagree with you Jesse. I easily found out the solution to the problem and it didn't take mad-coding skills to correct it. I say if they're too lazy to search out a problem then screw'em, that's their problem and they obviously didn't want to use app X that badly. It reminds me of people that say have a broken monitor, screen, or an old radio from back in the day. The monitor works but it blacks out, or whites out and they hit it until it comes back on. Then when it actually does fail to work at all you know they're going to be so frustrated and pissed that it's broken now for good.
Keep your stick on the ice...
128 • Packaging (by Jesse at 2010-04-18 00:48:30 GMT from Canada)
I think Landor has a point (post 127) about trying to figure out which package is at fault. Going back to a previous example I used, if you upgraded your kernel to 2.6.8.x and k3b stops working, is it the fault of the kernel or k3b? Or the fault of the distribution for packaging them both without making sure they work? Maybe a little bit of all of the above?
As for fixing the game by removing Pulse, that's great you got it working. And I think you have a valid point that it wasn't that hard a work-around. But some apps need more work than that and many people don't know how to replace Pulse with ALSA. You fall into the category of people experienced enough to research and correct such an issue. Most people out there don't share those skills. Most people will decide it doesn't work and move on to something else. We see it here on the DWW comments section all the time. Someone runs into problem X on a distro and never uses it again, moving on to another distro. Someone runs into corrupt once on OpenOffice and returns to Abiword, etc.
Landor is right, people should be willing to learn and try to fix things, but there's always a cut-off point where they decide it's not worth it.
129 • RE: 128 (by Landor at 2010-04-18 03:26:21 GMT from Canada)
I'll agree with you that many people don't know how to remove pulse and replace it with alsa, also though, I was one of those people. I had never re & re'd it before. So in that sense I was no different than anyone else doing something for the first time.
Now you can say and it's somewhat true that my experience/understanding, as well as my ability to research the problem gave me an advantage over someone new to a *nix based operating system in general. I would only partly agree with that.
You mentioned that most people don't share those skills then almost (and I know not exactly, but kind of here, you'll see my logic I hope) contradict it when you stated most people will decide it doesn't work and move on to something else. That's the big problem here, and will say that in comparison to my skill set. Most people do have have the skill it takes to solve the problem. We're all taught critical thinking pretty well from birth. It's the same arguement that someone debated with me a few months ago I believe, people are too stupid to fix this or that/find a solution. That's complete nonsense. If you don't have a computer or access to books and need to learn how to cook something, what's one of the first things that come to mind? You instantly problem solve and call a family member or close friend and get their guidance. When people needed to find something in the Yellow Pages they used a basic form of research and would search out the most basic form of their query, usually the first word or most key word, etc, until they found out what they wanted.
After that it's just applying what you have just learned. People are taught critical thinking as I said, from the onset of their lives. It's also a major component of all levels of school, from K to University. The problem is that they're just spoon fed and lazy. They don't want to find the solution, they want it handed to them. It's a microwave society where everything is instant and it best be, they want gratification.
To that end, when I first posted here I would make attempts to help people from time to time. I soon learned that the majority didn't want help, they only wanted to complain about their problems and were most likely planning their next move to something else since they didn't get the gratification (with 0 effort on their part) that they most desired.
I really believe that bringing these people into the fold isn't worth our time. A lot here won't like that and call me an elitist but the ones that don't are exactly the kind of people I'm talking about and the only reason I can be considered an elitist is I was willing to put the effort in that they are now. If you don't have an avenue to fix something in Linux and are unwilling to put the effort in yourself, then I know a perfect operating system just for you, it's called Windows, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. I figure we shouldn't bottle feed the lazy, it's that simple.
Rant done..lol What a topic change eh..lol :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
130 • Re: 128 (by jake at 2010-04-18 04:42:41 GMT from United States)
If a binary package comes from the distribution's library, it's the fault of the distribution. If the package comes from the package's maintainer, it's the fault of the person installing it on a distribution that doesn't support it.
Compiling a source package against an existing installation of any given distribution implies the dude/tte running the compiler has enough of a clue to figure it out ...
I'll address the "it doesn't work, I'm running away" issue in my reply to Landor's.
131 • Re: 129 (by jake at 2010-04-18 05:52:24 GMT from United States)
"Just use Windows" isn't really an answer. Most Windows users have the same issues with Windows that they'd have with Linux, and more. Consider:
My secretary used Unix[tm] back in 1980. She didn't know squat about computers, but she could type 110+ WPM. She used vi as her word processor (and a Model M keyboard, of course).
My Mother and Great Aunt both use Slackware 12.2 ... my Mom is a technophobe, my Aunt is computer illiterate. I get no support calls from them these days ... when they were on Windows, I got calls from each of them 3 or 4 times per month.
Back in the late '80s thru the late '90s, I supported many of the Veterinarians in the SF Bay Area. They ran the PSI/IDEXX variation of vet clinic database software. It ran on SCO Xenix. There probably isn't a less computer-savvy industry than that of the animal care world.
What do these examples all have in common? They were set up by me (and/or PSI), specifically for the end user in question, accounting for the actual needs of those end users. Not all people are equipped to research computer issues, any more than all people are equipped to research automotive, farming, forestry, fishery or HVAC issues. Throwing a shovelware Linux DVD onto a computer and saying "just use it, it's easy!" isn't an option for the technically illiterate, and never will be ... but if you understand the needs of the end user, making Linux work for them is pretty easy.
Have you ever asked yourself: "Instead of assuming MeDearOl'Mum can NOT use Linux, ever, end of discussion ... rather, how can I set up a Linux system that MDOM can use?" Seriously. Try it. It's an eye opener.
As for the poor Veterinarians ... unfortunately, most of them bought into Cornerstone or Avimark on Windows when the Y2K scare hit. Poor bastards went from "just use it" to "have to understand how it works to make use of it", literally overnight. I tried to continue to support 'em for a couple years, but with the exception of a couple personal friends of mine, I gave it up as a lost cause before the end of 2003.
Windows and other corporate-backed shovelware, such as *buntu, just aren't a good answer in a small office or computer illiterate home environment ... because most people are NOT really capable of critical thinking outside their field of endeavor. But properly targeted FOSS systems just work. The trick is in the targeting.
132 • RE: 131 (by Landor at 2010-04-18 08:54:03 GMT from Canada)
I have to disagree and I guess I take a broader view on it which is why I disagree. Everyone is capable of critical thinking in every situation it's just that they allow themselves to shutdown and have everything easy or believe that they lack within a certain area. I use to co-facilitate groups for single parents in crisis. Most, if not all of the parents suffered from a major lack of self-esteem by the point they reached us. It wasn't long after though that we showed them that the skills they did have were a step towards having a new skill, critical thinking. That applies with everything, including operating systems of course. Even finding a typo is a form of problem solving which is part of critical thinking, but few will see it, this I'll admit.
My mom wasn't a good example. :) At 50 or 51 she became a first class engineer and would pick up almost anything she tried to learn, or wouldn't believe she couldn't learn something. My sister who holds multiple degrees and more certifications for windows and windows related software, now she was the challenge...lol She suffers from severe carpal tunnel and a year ago I bought a laptop and when I found out it was easier for her to use a touchpad I gave her it. I had one condition, Linux only as you'd guess. I did exactly as you said, I built the system exactly around her. For literally decades I had attempted to sway her over to using other OS' to no avail, so this time it had to be built to fit her exactly. She's still using it today luckily and as you said, because it was built with her in mind, to a "T".
Can Linux be that for everyone though. This comes down to my argument about hand-holding or bottle feeding. There's not enough Jesses, Jakes, Landors, Ladislavs, etc, to do this for everyone. While I agree the shovelware approach is less than palatable the alternative isn't sustainable either. Where is the happy medium? To go back to the term I've been using, and do we as the experienced users end up doing everyone elses critical thinking? A learning curve should be expected and I don't believe (tongue in cheek here) that we should be instituting a bell curve for the masses.
Keep your stick on the ice...
133 • PCLinuxOS WOW!!!!! (by Mike Sonstegard on 2010-04-18 17:25:56 GMT from United States)
This distrp is gonna' be at the TOP OF THE LIST !!!
Move over Mark Shuttleworth.
TEXSTAR and 'da rippah gang just pulled one out of the hat!!!
134 • for #112 and #113 (by Anonymous at 2010-04-19 01:53:43 GMT from United States)
I have used Debian Testing, and Debian Unstable (Sid). Before that I tried Debian Stable. Now I use Debian Unstable (via Sidux LiveCD installation).
I don't update or upgrade much at all, so no daily or even weekly changes to my system at all. I only update a set of packages, or individual packages via a normal install:
apt-get update ; apt-get -d install ; apt-get install
by default, apt-get will get the latest version of the requested package and install that along with any newer dependencies (other libraries) of the new version of the requested package. It will automatically remove older version of the same package, which is basically an upgrade of that previously installed package.
I don't update Xorg, or any desktop manager that often, when I feel advantureous, I can do that, but from run-level 3 as recommended by sidux folks. But I always have a couple copies of a recent sidux liveCD nearby in case I need to reinstall. With sidux coming out every 3-4 months, I don't need to even do that (upgrade Xorg, desktip manager, or dist-upgrade). I simply install the new sidux release on a different partition and play with that for a week to tweak and setup to my liking before using that. My previous install of sidux becomes idle, working back up of sort. Which is only about half an hour of installation time. Much simpler than crossing fingers and hope all the components of X are working at the time of my apt-get update.
Basically, my system is very stable with my approach. No problem unless I mess up or try something new, or being stupid.
Very little different between Debian Testing and Debian Unstable from my way of installation. Only that Debian Unstable normally give me more up to date version of apps.
GRML is a distro based on Debian Testing, I believe. Mostly commandline, if you want to take a look. Wasn't giving me what I want, but may give you what you want.
135 • Ease of use myth. (by jake at 2010-04-19 05:33:23 GMT from United States)
"Where is the happy medium?"
There isn't one. You are either computer literate, or you are not.
If you are, carry on, as you were, nothing to see here.
If you are not, either you have a (real) computer literate person to help you out, or you actually take classes to learn for yourself, or your system goes tits-up on a regular basis for reasons that you never fully understand, and as a result you are constantly formatting/reinstalling and/or replacing your system (or paying someone to do the above, all the time bitching about the same hardware & software combo that my users just use, because it just works when set up properly).
The vast majority of users belong to the latter group. They don't know how it works, and they don't care how it works. They just want to use it.
In my mind, catering to those users is a fool's errand, unless you have a bank account the size of Microsoft or Apple (or Sun, and see what happened to them ... )
"Ease of use" is a myth.
Number of Comments: 135
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