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1 • Ubuntu to Debain movement (by Abhi M on 2010-03-22 08:41:40 GMT from India) |
Crunch bang is moving to Debian, Linux Mint is also planning the same
Let's wait and see how things are going on.....
I still don't like the concept of log out button on the right top corner of Ubuntu LiveCD, corners are considered to be important part of GUI and it must be allocated for frequently used buttons rather than log out button, which most the users will use only at the end of a long session ( short session for developers, though - during testing - restarts )
Looks like Ubuntu must consider a serious look into the GUI department rather than making some free space on the right hand side
Nice weekly this time, thanks for including Kernel News Major Distributions link, it is really helpful
Keep on Rocking DistroWatch.!!!
2 • Ubuntu's new window controls placement (by Märt on 2010-03-22 08:51:35 GMT from Estonia)
I like this new placement and I'm already used to it. It seems quite natural. Two hands up for this new placement!
3 • Ubuntu's new window controls placement (by Znurre on 2010-03-22 08:57:27 GMT from Sweden)
"Moving everything to the left opens up the space on the right nicely, and I would like to experiment in 10.10 with some innovative options there. It's much easier to do that if we make this change now."
That seems like a really bad excuse to me.
With that reasoning, they could aswell have moved everything to the right and pleased more users.
4 • New placement of buttons (by nilew on 2010-03-22 09:07:52 GMT from Sweden)
I like the new placement, I think it's good that someone change some things, we have to try and sometimes fail to make history and innovative designs and applications.
It's more or less the same as before, "is it really that hard to change the theme?"
5 • Ubuntu Lucid (by Paul Ashbrook on 2010-03-22 09:12:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thanks for the DWW.
I've been testing Ubuntu Lucid in a Virtualbox installation on my Karmic PC, and am really enjoying the experience. I can see that the developers have refreshed the GUI, without any super-radical changes. Ok, so the placement of the window buttons has changed, I personally like them in the new location, nearer to the menu buttons, but already there are "how-to"s on putting them back on the right-side.
Biggest advance is the Rhythmbox plugin with Apple iPhone and iPod Touch. That ought to sway a few more people our way.
All-in, I'm impressed so far and will be upgrading when it goes live. Thanks to all devs involved in Lucid.
6 • New button placement (by Dylan on 2010-03-22 09:21:21 GMT from Ireland)
Ok guys if you don't like the new button placement, don't whinge about it and just switch theme! Gnome includes many nice themes by default such as "New Wave".
I have not tried the new placements yet but I will have to wait and see if I like it. If not im just gonna switch to New Wave.
7 • Ubuntu (by Anonymous penguin at 2010-03-22 09:43:50 GMT from Switzerland)
Ubuntu is aimed to be a alternative OS to MS Windows and thus ease of use is one of its goal, right?  This users don’t care at all about new designs, placements of buttons, desktop effects et cetera. (The main thing is that the buttons should be self-explanatory, e.g. a ‘X’ to close the window.) But the users do care about stability – if for example the X server crashes many times or the upgrade of a newer version makes the whole system unusable, they will change back to MS Windows. Problably there are some Mac users that are delighted by the endless (and senseless) possibilities of Compiz et al. But in the long therm, factors like ease of use and stability are more essential that the crowd changes to Ubuntu.
Therefore, dear Ubuntu developers, stop focus on useless stuff like design and placements of buttons and concentrate more on stability for the future! Former MS Windows users will be very grateful to you.
1. “Ubuntu provides an up-to-date, stable operating system for the average user, with a strong focus on usability and ease of installation.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(operating_system)
8 • The real problem with Lucid - Plymouth (by Duhnonymous at 2010-03-22 09:50:56 GMT from United States)
What's been getting drowned out is the fact that Lucid uses Plymouth by default, which is seriously problematic. Some testers are still reporting trouble with booting, and developers are scrambling to try to fix as many of those issues as possible.
9 • #7 (by Anonymous penguin at 2010-03-22 09:59:00 GMT from Switzerland)
I’ve forgotten to thank Jesse Smith for this handy restoring-my-deleted-data tutorial!
10 • Lucid Lynx with Gnome Shell (by sergeant at 2010-03-22 10:00:47 GMT from Kazakhstan)
Come on, guys, the new placement of buttons is such a small change that I hardly noticed.
I am already a month in Gnome 3.0 shell and got used to it so that the traditional Gnome looks so last century.
Get ready for the big change, folks!
11 • Ubuntu's new window controls placement (by LivCov on 2010-03-22 10:04:52 GMT from France)
It would have been nice to explain how to revert this change in a couple of clicks instead of just saying people have the choice to use something else...
Alt+F2 then gconf-editor
> "button layout": move the ":" sign at the beginning and just chose the layout order
12 • Innovative feature = zeitbutton? (by Fred at 2010-03-22 10:06:00 GMT from Belgium)
That" innovative feature" why they moved the buttons in the title bar is probably Zeitbutton, or something similar: http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitbutton-more-realistic-than-the-nautilus-stuff/
13 • Buttons at left makes sense (by os2_user on 2010-03-22 10:07:51 GMT from United States)
if all the menus are over there, least mouse travel. As one who's long complained about the unchanged since prototyped long ago left/right placement that nearly ensures maximum mouse travel, I think it's an interesting experiment. However, after seeing it, as a Luddite: I. Don't. Like. It. -- But have only played with Ubuntu; the top/bottom menus are a bigger change from all else.
What I'd like to see catch on is shift-click selection that treats the display as if icons are a series of words on lines of text, rather than the Windows way of a geometric block.
Major flaw I see to the plan is the "surprise, there it is" roll-out that causes most to turn reactionary, with only vague promises (or threats) for what they'll do next. BAD politicking, I'd say.
14 • re: Ubuntu button position change (by Jimbo at 2010-03-22 10:21:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
@6 and 10
well, I've only tried a few themes, but they all have the buttons on the left! Unless it's a bug, after all it s still very early. I'm getting crashes every few minutes in one thing or another.
I also have 2700+ Ubuntu dekstop users, of whom about 2000 are what you would call "heavly inexperienced" with computers. So far, Linux has meant everything could be locked down and the training could be absolutely consistent, as everyone uses exactly the same.
Now, before anyone chirps in about "get used to it!", none of the these people would have jobs if we hadn't switched from MS products (the company would have gone bust early last year - the rescue plan approved by the bankers specifically stated 100% migration to FOSS) We now only need two IT support staff for 2700 users, with two server-side admins for the backroom and networking. My point is that little changes like this have a disproportionate effect for us - it's also the LTS release, so this will have an effect on us for at least 4 years for us and those like us.
Because of this, I've knocked up a standard Debian Lenny Gnome+Fluxbox setup for us just in case. Decision-day will actually be about 4-5 months form now. - Jim
15 • Ubuntu and Debian (by Liam on 2010-03-22 10:46:09 GMT from United Kingdom)
The choice to move Crunchbang to Debian (Though I personally would have based it on Sid or Sidux) is probably the best idea, especially given their poor reasoning for the reversing of window controls.
Putting them on the left has never worked well for me, I always move instinctively to the wrong corner, and when I do go to the right one, I inevitably find the wrong button. If Ubuntu is meant to be fore end-users, put it back - the majority of them are used to that, it's no hard task to switch them to the left again.
To be fair though, the same argument goes the other way too.
I have to admit I've had less troubles with Ubuntu than I have with Debian, but that's not to say they're doing well. Jaunty->Karmic upgrades are unreliable at best, and a system killer at worst, but fresh installs *usually* work. I foresee the same happening for Karmic->Lucid (Or even Hardy->Lucid, as they're the LTS releases)
They're going to lose people if upgrades keep going on their broken course.
16 • Ubuntu is NOT about the user! (by Joe Blow on 2010-03-22 11:53:08 GMT from Canada)
This left versus right scmozzle by Canonical has nothing at all to do with operability. It was done for one reason only --- to differentiate the distribution from the Linux "pack" of distros.
That the move makes it more "MAC-like" (hey, we're classier than those other Linux distros, eh?), or that the move generates buzz for the distro, doesn't hurt either. It has zero to do with operability, or "making more space on the right" (for what?).
No, it's just Canonical and its *buntu clan shunning the helping hand of the Linux universe upon which it leeched its underpinnings.
17 • @ 16 (by Anonymous at 2010-03-22 11:57:06 GMT from United States)
That is the same reason they went to grub2 --- to differentiate the distribution from the Linux "pack" of distros.
18 • RE: GRUB 2 (by ladislav on 2010-03-22 12:00:29 GMT from Taiwan)
I doubt that. GRUB 2 had already been part of Debian's testing/unstable branch so it came from "upstream".
19 • phew (by Leroy on 2010-03-22 12:06:20 GMT from Serbia)
"We'll have to wait until well after 'Lucid Lynx' is released to find out what 'innovative' ideas will fill the empty space on the right of the application titlebars."
That is yet to be "innovated", don't you know. Disgraceful.
Focus on hardware detection and software quality, Ubuntu bubbleheads.
20 • Button on Left (by Rich on 2010-03-22 12:06:30 GMT from United States)
I'm running 10.04 Ubuntu and the buttons on the left to minimize, maximize, close the window presents no problems for me. I'm getting use to it. Not a big deal in my eyes. Being right handed the mouse may have to move just a little further on the screen to the left. But over-all the placement probably makes some sense. It's worth a try to use it this way for a while and see how it really pans out with users overall. BTW 10.04 is shaping up and I've also noticed some newer version packages and the package manager is shaping up but stills needs some work and direction.
21 • debated to death (by lefty.crupps on 2010-03-22 12:11:15 GMT from United States)
This whole 'GNOME buttons on the udder side OMG' sure has a lot of people upset. I'm sad to see the conversation has spilled into DWW as well.
Moving to a Debian base is always a good idea IMHO. I'm excited for the Mint rumour to come to pass...
22 • Ubuntu Lucid (by fernbap at 2010-03-22 12:27:41 GMT from Portugal)
Been testing 10.04 for a few days. What pisses me most about ubuntu is that there are always regressions from one version to the next, and this one is not an exception.
This time, found so far - 1: empathy doesn't work and 2: 10.04 doesn't recognize my USB external harddisk! (which every other distro i tested does).
How can such blatant show stoppers pass through several alfa releases? (i know, it's only beta so far, so perhaps it will be fixed).
My ATI card was recognized and desktop acceleration was enabled by default without the need to add any third party driver. Thumbs up for that! Not sure so far if the performance is as good as with the proprietary driver, but anyway that is a step in the right direction.
As to the new default theme, i like it, except for the silly decision on placing the buttons to the left (easy to fix, though). Of course, what immediately comes to mind is Ubuntu trying to copy Apple, which in my opinion is a shot in the foot. Apart from that, the new theme is really nice and very polished.
23 • Dr. Web. (by PhantomTramp on 2010-03-22 12:34:40 GMT from United States)
I use Dr. Web's live scanning CD on sick Windows PCs when other antivirus products have let me down. The default scanning takes a while, but it is worth the wait on the tough ones.
Vampirefo at MepisLovers told me about it.
Speaking of Mepis, they changed from Ubuntu to Debian a good while back and the distro is pretty durn cool!
24 • @18 Grub2 (by Anonymous at 2010-03-22 12:45:16 GMT from United States)
I don't doubt it. Also they did it to make it harder for their users to dual boot other distros that still use grub.
25 • RE: Ubuntu is NOT about the user! (by Abhijeet at 2010-03-22 12:51:17 GMT from India)
I have always used buttons on the left side, so no discomfort here :). Besides, anyone remember the time when KDE went to version 4. All that fuss went up in the air. Give it time.
"hey, we're classier than those other Linux distros, eh?"
Half the people using linux had the same mindset a while back, some have it even now, until distributions like ubuntu came along and proved that linux is not just a toy for self proclaimed geeks. Some beta testing experiment does not make it a 'clan' and 'leech'. If you are so offended by it please ask them to return the money you wasted in buying their os, ohh... wait, you didn't pay squat. Ubuntu is not one person. So, please don't go on calling names. There are hundreds of linux distros. This site is pretty much a homage to those "classier than those other Linux distros". You yourself are using an operating system used by less than 2% of computer using population. How could you be so cynical?
26 • CrunchBang (by CrayXMP at 2010-03-22 13:01:04 GMT from France)
Ubuntu's new window controls placement is the tree that hides the forest.
You can restore the previous layout with a few clicks.
Ubuntu, as well as Gnome, are becoming increasingly dependant on the Mono trojan.
Restoring sanity in such a distro is harder than it was before.
It needs more than just a few clicks to clean this MS virus.
Many of us chose Linux for the freedom it offers. Why would we let ourselves being trapped again, and locked in by MS ?
Linux is also about choice, and I choose the freedom to avoid Ubuntu.
According from corenominal CrunchBang's dev :
"There are currently no plans to include any Mono applications.", and that suits me very well !
27 • ClamAV on (FOSS) Live CDs (by slakka at 2010-03-22 13:09:46 GMT from United States)
ClamAV can be found on SystemRescueCD, grml (full), and RIPLinuX. Links can be found on distrowatch.com ;-)
28 • Can't Configure Debian? (by 'Human' Interface at 2010-03-22 13:19:22 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu should realize that they aren't the Microsoft of the Linux world: they can't just make whatever boneheaded changes they like, but get away with it because there's nowhere else for their users to go.
Of course, users could just change the interface back to the old style (presumably; maybe this capability was removed to make things more 'human'!), but then again, they've been conditioned by years of dumbing down GNOME to not change anything, ever.
So I expected lots of confusion and complaints, and indeed that is what we see..
29 • RE:Helpless People. (by Eddie Wilson on 2010-03-22 13:23:58 GMT from United States)
Well it seems that people are still trying to drive the button issue into the ground and I can't believe someone is still bitching about Grub 2, (which will become the norm in all distros soon enough). I guess those people will have to stick to just one distro or go back to MS Windows unless they actually try to learn something. Then we have the button issue. I have never seen such a supposedly tech and computer savvy community get so derailed and confused about such a minor issue. How many of the persons who don't like the button layout or have experienced other problems have gone to the proper forums and feedback section and give their experience of the alpha's, or of the beta? If you haven't done so then what you say in other places is unimportant. I don't really understand why people will download an alpha or beta of a distro and then bitch to the whole community that there are problems with the distro. I have downloaded it and I'm testing it but I'm not stupid enough to try to use it as my main system at this time. IT'S NOT FINISHED!!! I'm not crazy about the button layout, I experience some crashes, and I go to the proper placed and tell how it works for me. If a person doesn't use Ubuntu and is not going to use Ubuntu than why do they care? Is it just to foster FUD? Should opinions matter? Of course but where it becomes harmful is when a person adds phrases as "it's just Canonical and its *buntu clan shunning the helping hand of the Linux universe upon which it leeched its underpinnings.", "Therefore, dear Ubuntu developers, stop focus on useless stuff like design and placements of buttons and concentrate more on stability for the future! Former MS Windows users will be very grateful to you.", "Focus on hardware detection and software quality, Ubuntu bubbleheads.", "I don't doubt it. Also they did it to make it harder for their users to dual boot other distros that still use grub." Those are real helpful statements and I'm sure that these people went to the Ubuntu website to list their experiences. NOT! Is this what the open source community has regressed into? A bunch of FUD slingers? A bunch of really scared people? A bunch of freeloaders? What's your motivation?
30 • @28 (by Celettu on 2010-03-22 13:42:12 GMT from Luxembourg)
I too, expected a lot of confusion and complaints, because there are ALWAYS complaints about Ubuntu...
- Ubuntu is too brown.
- Ubuntu doesn't write enough kernel code
- Ubuntu isn't free enough
- Ubuntu leeches off Debian
- Ubuntu is slow
- Ubuntu includes mono
- Ubuntu has it's windows buttons on the wrong side
- Ubuntu has/is a funny name
- Ubuntu has the wrong default applications
- Ubuntu releases too much
I've heard them all, and these are just a few of the examples...and every time, there were predictions of angry users leaving Ubuntu in droves...people on the 'net love to bitch and whine about pretty much everything and Ubuntu is an easy target.
As far as I'm concerned, the guys at Canonical are doing a good job. In any case, they can create/configure Ubuntu how they want it to be, it's their baby. Nobody forces anybody to use Ubuntu. Many people are happy using another distribution. Many others happily use Ubuntu.
Why can't we all just...get along? :)
31 • Ubuntu Ubuttons (by BenJammin on 2010-03-22 13:43:53 GMT from United States)
Just like everyone else, i thought i would hate the buttons on the left, but within ~5 minutes i was perfectly used to it and found it more intuitive (especially with the big RED X dot).
I was the same way with my Mac until i got used to it as well. In my experience, the only reason the buttons are even on the right are because windoze put them there in 1995 and we all got used to them.
My opinion, Ubuntu should put a simple checkbox in the themes panel for "buttons left or right"
hehe...by the way, pclinuxos has updated their homepage:
"PCLinuxOS: Our window buttons are right"
32 • Debian (by Matt at 2010-03-22 13:48:17 GMT from Canada)
Does anyone have confirmation from Clem that Mint will be Debian based? And if so, does he have a timeframe in mind or will he still build the next Mint based on Ubuntu 10.04?
And also, I tried Ubuntu 10.04 alpha (one of them, I can't remember which... I think it might have been the second one) and it needed like 350mb of updates which I wasn't interested in given my slow Internet connection. But does anyone know if the beta is a little nicer with update sizes? If it's going to be a large update size then I'll just wait for the final release which will have only a few MB of updates to start off with and then it will be manageable amounts from then on. I'm just not interested in going through the process of downloading and installing the OS and then having hours and hours of updates to go through after.
And as for button placement, wait to make judgement once the final release is out. Maybe go on the Ubuntu forums and inform them of your displeasure with the current interface but I don't think Distrowatch is the place for complaints like that so early. If they come out with a final release you're not happy with... that's the time to go on here and rant!
33 • Dr.Web LiveCD (by Anonymous at 2010-03-22 14:03:44 GMT from Canada)
Thanks Mr. Hoffmann for this review, and especially for the link to the 58 page user maual.
I hope that all reviews of rescue cds will make a note as to the extent of any user manuals that are available with or for the rescue cd.
34 • Parted Magic (by sly on 2010-03-22 14:08:15 GMT from United States)
I had high hopes that Parted Magic 4.9 would allow editing of logical volumes, but alas, not so. Maybe next time. If anyone can point me to a guide for editing logical volumes, I would be appreciative.
On the Ubantu issue/non-issue of button placement. I REALLY don't see why everyone is up in arms. I'm set in my ways also, but this change is not that big of a deal, IMHO.
35 • Ubuntu alpha (by RayRay at 2010-03-22 14:13:26 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu alpha works well.
Enterprise users though would be better served by using Debian Stable adding custom artwork and theme making a remaster. Why would a business take a chance on using a distro based on Debian testing when they could have a rock solid stable Debian base and only add the essential programs for their business. Home users might want all the latest bells and whistles but businesses should make stability and ease of use their goal.
36 • Ubuntu (by Jesse at 2010-03-22 14:29:40 GMT from Canada)
I think BenJammin has the right idea about Ubuntu in general and their button placement in particular. People probably would have been happier with the placement decision if there was a more obvious way to change it. Using gconf for anything is a bad idea and most end-users (the people Ubuntu is supposedly targeting) aren't going to comfortable using it, any more than they would be comfortable using regedit. Manually running gconf and getting into "apps - metacity - general - button layout" is not intuitive. Putting an option in "System - preferences - appearance" is.
Frankly, I don't much care what a distro's theme is or where the buttons are as long as I can easily (and intuitively) change them. Ubuntu is neglecting the last point and I think that's what got people frustrated.
37 • No Windows buttons (by RayRay at 2010-03-22 14:35:39 GMT from United States)
I tried the two netbook releases Ubuntu and Kubuntu, and all the other releases of 10.04 also except Ubuntu Studio. I'm writing on the Lubuntu live CD now.
On the netbooks there does seem to be a problem with the placing of the windows buttons, they just aren't there. Had to go to File menu to quit Firefox. I don't know if that's normal, oh well now I'll have to go to shrink to talk me down from this traumatic experience.
On a serious note, what is the problem with a distro changing their look, life is entropy. If you can't change you aren't standing still you are going backwards.
My favorite distro is PCLinuxOS, by the way the beta is working great, but by the time I'm done with it it doesn't look like PCLinuxOS it looks like RayRay's OS.
38 • As good as it gets ... (by Bob on 2010-03-22 14:37:28 GMT from Austria)
As a long time Linux user I am carefully watching Unity Linux creeping up the Distrowatch rankings. They might actually get to a point where we'll get a rock solid desktop distro without being required to waste several days torturing the console keyboard doing things computers could do much better - and faster. (Not trying to offend Arch-wayers though ;-)
Unity Linux RC1 feels more stable and snappy than several official releases of other distros which I have tested recently. So congrats to the Unity guys - they seem to know what you are doing. I wish some of them were more closely involved in the KDE4 development ...
39 • ext2 undelete (by shankargopal on 2010-03-22 14:37:50 GMT from India)
Ok, dumb / basic question - how does one undelete on an ext2 system? Could only find some old howtos around which look rather intimidating. Are there pre-available tools?
40 • Dr Web (by RayRay at 2010-03-22 14:42:23 GMT from United States)
As usual my favorite monday morning activity is reading the Distrowatch review and as usual that was a good review. A well done to Bernard Hoffman.
41 • RE: 32 - Debian (by Jordan Clarke on 2010-03-22 14:42:33 GMT from Australia)
I don't know if the rumours are true about the switch to a Debian base. I'll ask Clem next time I thank him for creating such a good release in Mint 8! :)
Wait for beta 2 at least - the LiveCD of beta 1 was extremely slow, and I couldn't boot into the desktop properly after installation until I updated through the failsafe. (Alpha3 was more stable during the brief time I used it! :D)
As for button placement... well, it works fine for me, but I'm surprised that they decided to switch sides for a LTS release. Especially because Ubuntu is currently the best hope for relieving Windows users of their tortuous OS... still, it's a pretty trivial issue, to say the least! :D
42 • Oops! (by Bob on 2010-03-22 14:45:29 GMT from Austria)
"they seem to know what you are doing" should read "they seem to know what they are doing". Crazy typo - pretty much misleading actually!
43 • RE: 31 - Ubuntu Ubuttons (by Jordan Clarke on 2010-03-22 14:46:29 GMT from Australia)
That's most humorous! :D Did you notice the browser tab has "Our window buttons a rig..." next to the PCLinuxOS logo? Lol!
44 • Ubuntu button placement (by Basilio Guzman on 2010-03-22 14:48:27 GMT from Puerto Rico)
I don't think about it as a cuestion of style or to be Mac "Classy", but about PRODUCTIVITY. Using Gnome as it desktop, with the Menu Bar item at the left of the screen, to obvious placement of the buttons is at LEFT. The cursor doesn't have to travel across the screen to close, or minimize an window. I have used both Mac an Windows, for several years, and the microseconds it takes moving the cursor "crosscountry", add enough to be noticed in the end of the (labor) day, even for a shortcut freak as I am. I have to note that I am against the dependency of the mouse; even more against the excessive stress by the placement of the windows buttons.
45 • ClamAV (by Andy Axnot at 2010-03-22 14:55:30 GMT from United States)
I believe that ClamAV is also available on PartedMagic, though the signatures need to be downloaded.
46 • Q&A (by Anjum on 2010-03-22 14:57:25 GMT from United States)
that was a real handy piece of info about recovering lost files...many thanks for posting it!!
47 • #27 (by Barnabyh at 2010-03-22 14:59:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
I've never had a look at Systemrescue CD, a combination of install cd of <whatever distro> , Gparted, Slax and DSL usually did the trick.
Also, for the network, NST is very nice. I should probably have a look at Systemrescue cd soon to see if it's equivalent (or even better?) to Dr. Web with Clam onboard. Thanks.
48 • Moving away from a Ubuntu base -- rambling (by Dave at 2010-03-22 15:03:48 GMT from Canada)
While it certainly doesn't have as many users as Mint or even Crunchbang, it shouldn't be forgotten that Eeebuntu announced a move (now in beta?) to a Debian (unstable) base recently as well.
Ubuntu continually tries to push into it's own space as a OS for users new to linux. Debian remains a solid, stable and standard linux core and repository. Will the directions Ubuntu takes make it a trailblazer on what's new in Linux, or differentiate it from the rest of Linux?
I've personally moved from Ubuntu to Mandriva for a "just works" distribution, and continue to use debian (+testing) for my linux playground/testbed/education.
Ubuntu certainly was my introduction to Debian, and then sidux. Many move from Ubuntu to Mint. What's your path through the debian-verse been (or any other thoughts)?
49 • RE: 29 and rescue cd (by Mark M. on 2010-03-22 15:07:33 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the morning cheer up Eddie (coffee coming out my nose) -- my thoughts exactly :-)
About Dr. Web: looks very nice Jessie. Just FYI I have used both System Rescue CD and TRK (both listed at Distrowatch) and they are very good too. Both are live cds and at least one will run fresh-clam and clam av to scan your borked windows box.
50 • 47 (by Barnabyh at 2010-03-22 15:08:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
That should have read install cd of whatever distro you're using...seems like if you put it between the >< symbols it doesn't get posted.
51 • New Ubuntu base distribution (by Willie at 2010-03-22 15:13:03 GMT from United States)
I going to create a new Ubuntu based distribution with the buttons on the right. I'm going to call it something like Ubuntu Done Right.
52 • Buttons? Who cares? (by mchlbk on 2010-03-22 15:31:31 GMT from Denmark)
Guys they're just buttons.
Who cares where Canonical puts them? I'm guessing most of us are tweaking the UI of whatever OS we are using as the first thing after installing anyway.
It amazes me that this is actually an issue among the DW readers.
53 • The Ubuntu problem (by Anonymous at 2010-03-22 15:47:54 GMT from United States)
I think the real Ubuntu problem is that they have always claimed to be an easy to use Linux distro that is perfect for non-technical users, (IE former MS users), while at the same time trying very hard to do things their way. If it weren't for some of their ideological insistence on total openness even in universally used media formats then Mint likely wouldn't have been born, and Ubuntu would be even larger share of the Linux world than it does now. Despite Ubuntu's self imposed shortcomings it still dominates the Linux desktop and gets many windows converts; however, moving their buttons over to the left by default on a long term release may well be a sign that they care more about doing things their way than making things easy on the over 90% of computer users who are used to the opposite window configuration. If Ubuntu continues down the same trajectory that they began with I would fully expect someone else to come along and knock them off the top of the Linux desktop hill because there seem to be many little ways in which Ubuntu is not trying to do things the way that is easiest and most comfortable to uses like say Linux Mint is, and Ubuntu is thus sowing the seeds of their own dethroning as Linux king by not following through on the ease of use trend that they themselves helped start.
54 • ext2 undelete (by Jesse at 2010-03-22 15:59:29 GMT from Canada)
There's a short tutorial on recovering files from ext2 here:
55 • Interview: CrunchBang Creator Explains Switch to Debian Sources (by Tervel at 2010-03-22 16:18:18 GMT from Austria)
56 • Innovation is Right-Handed (by JaceMan on 2010-03-22 16:22:59 GMT from United States)
Canonical had to move the buttons to the left because they needed the right side available to add "innovation"? That's interesting, I didn't know that you could only be innovative on the right hand side of the screen. These new "innovations" certainly could not have been added to the left side.
57 • Ubuntu is pushing some buttons (by Patrick on 2010-03-22 16:37:32 GMT from United States)
"Whatever you do, someone will always complain."
I want to make a motion to adopt that as the first law of Linux. :-)
If you don't change anything, some users will complain that the desktop experience has become stale and there is lack of innovation.
If you do make a change (like changing the position of the window buttons), some users will complain that it is an unnecessary change that will drive people away. Although in this case, I seriously doubt that the people complaining the loudest are Ubuntu users. I think they are more likely vultures trying to make a big stink out of nothing by fanning the flames of FUD.
Anyway, I decided to download the Beta 1 to see how easy it was to get used to it, but I had no luck with it. In VirtualBox it just gets stuck with a black screen and white cursor right after the purple GRUB screen goes away. Nothing after that. I'll have to investigate what the deal is, but just in case, has anyone else run into the same issue?
Since I haven't actually tried it, I can't speak from experience, but I think it is a minor change that will be easy to get used to. And really, looking at it from an eagle eye's perspective and ignoring legacy, it does make more sense to have them on the left side, when you consider the amount of mouse movement needed and the concentration of controls with similar use that are all concentrated toward the left side of the screen. I think the only reason we are used to having them on the right side was a bone-headed decision from Microsoft long ago. And since when do we let bone-headed decisions from Microsoft determine what is the right thing to do in the Linux world?
This change doesn't strike me as just a "change for the sake of change" kind of thing, but a well thought out, hard decision that's just one step in a series of changes they are planning to implement, to improve the user experience. Most of the window header bar is a total waste of space, so if they can come up with something useful to do with it, more power to them. Time will tell if it they can, and if the Linux user-base is ready to accept changes or is stuck in the past.
In any case, when you hear Shuttleworth talk about the issue, he definitely seems ten times more level-headed and mature than the yelling crowd populating forums complaining about it.
58 • Mint is what Ubuntu wanted to be. (by Gustavo at 2010-03-22 16:40:49 GMT from Brazil)
Of course we all will just wait for the next LinuxMint release. I really doubt Mint will put the buttons on the left of title bars.
Ubuntu-apha -> Ubuntu-beta -> Ubuntu final -> Mint :))
59 • Buttons (by Untitled at 2010-03-22 16:57:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
From #29: "I have never seen such a supposedly tech and computer savvy community get so derailed and confused about such a minor issue." -- This is so spot on.
What I dislike about this particular discussion about the buttons are the comments that Windows users will find it hard to get used to the new location. Silly me, I thought our tune thus far was "yes, it's not Windows, some things are different but if you get used to it then you will be rewarded", but I guess we're changing it now.
As a Kubuntu user the decision to re-arrange the buttons doesn't affect me, but I decided, for the sake of solidarity with my Gnome brothers and sisters (that sounds a bit sick) to change their order and location on my install as well, since KDE allows you to do it from its System Settings. Actually, it does open up the right quite nicely. Not sure what innovative feature I can place there now that it's opened up, but I like the look nevertheless.
60 • Why you delete? (by queles on 2010-03-22 17:01:39 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
61 • re:60 (by RayRay at 2010-03-22 17:20:03 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
62 • Button placement? You are kidding. (by Monkeyboy on 2010-03-22 17:20:43 GMT from United States)
At one time getting Linux to even run was a major project. Now we have reached the point where button placement is somehow relevant.
63 • Ubuntu (by Spike on 2010-03-22 17:24:42 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu never was a democracy, and the illusion of being a community distro was just that - an illusion. Personally, I think we need a community distro that focuses on desktop usage, incorporates good ideas that are scattered about various distros, and doesn't include proprietary stuff by default (but makes _some_ of it [like drivers] available if needed).
Anyone interested, or do you think this is not a niche that needs to be filled with Yet Another Distro?
64 • Margarita Manterola (by RadioActiveMan at 2010-03-22 17:36:03 GMT from United States)
I would like to ask Margarita if she gets elected the leader of Debian will she use to DPL powers to take the Falkland Islands back from those bloody British heathen devils?
65 • Ubuntu and stuff (by davemc on 2010-03-22 18:16:36 GMT from United States)
Canonical/Ubuntu is its own project and as such, it can do whatever it likes in whatever way it pleases with or without community involvement, and it has the operating capitol to do so without the community (privately), in any case. They do have to follow the GPL, and they are doing that. Same can be said of Red Hat/Fedora, Novell/SuSe, Google/Chrome, etc. What ever gave any of you the idea that things were otherwise? Business is business and these companies will do whatever it takes to make $$$, with or without community involvement or consent, and this is all that matters in the end to them. I really get the impression sometimes that some folks do not understand what Open Source is truly about, and that some people really think that they have a say in any part of it - they don't. Contribute code, help out with testing, provide input/feedback, donate cash to your favorite projects - absolutely! But a democracy? Nope! Not a chance.
There does not exist today a Distro where there is not a Lead Developer/Project Leader that makes the ultimate decisions. He/She may take input for a time, but the final decisions are ultimately made behind closed doors by a core small group of folks. As far as I know, Debian comes closest to a democratic process, but even in Debian, not all decisions are made by vote (although their processes are well documented and open). The same can be said of major projects like KDE, GNOME, Ooo, Amarok, Pidgin, etc. etc.
66 • Some time, the less known, the better: a note on Ylmf (by meanpt at 2010-03-22 18:19:24 GMT from Portugal)
After trying many *buntus and derivatives, and finding they do struggle to work within the ram's mininum requirement of 384 MB, i noticed Ylmf in the then waiting list and give it a try with some initial disbelief ... and guess what, it does work. It may not have the latest and shinny desktoo, but does the job so well that i've been using it for 3 months or so, as my main system. Congratulations tho the development team.
67 • @57 Follow-up and rant (by Patrick on 2010-03-22 19:05:36 GMT from United States)
I got the Ubuntu 10.04 Beta 1 running in Virtualbox by updating to the lastest Virtualbox. Problem solved.
I admit that at this point, out of habit I move my mouse cursor to the right if I want to close a window. Still, I'm already noticing I'm starting to catch on even after just using it for an hour or so. Non-issue in my opinion.
What I may find more of an issue is that to move the buttons to the left they found it necessary to remove the window menu/icon that is normally there. You can still access the window menu by right-clicking on the task button on the task bar. But I may miss the icon on the window bar more than the menu. I think that subconsciously, I used it to recognize a window before reading the title text. Other than that, the beta seems to work fine for me and I do like the new theme.
There is a thing that keeps bothering me about most distros though, and it is still there in this Beta too: kernel message pollution. You know, the little random pieces of text that manage to ooze through the cracks of the boot-experience. To me, there probably could be nothing that would scream "dinky" louder to the new user than these cryptic pieces of text appearing for a fraction of a second here and there when booting up and shutting down. You would think it should be possible to make these go somewhere else where they wouldn't be seen, unless the user asks for them. I'm not too familiar with the details of boot-up, but shouldn't it be possible to switch the screen to a virtual console that is not the default kernel console early during boot? Switching modes with black screens and blinking cursors in between is bad enough, but showing cryptic text makes it much worse.
In my Virtualbox setup for instance, the boot process uses a text-mode splash screen. When you shut it down, for a fraction of a second you see a screen half full of "TERM signal" messages from different processes, then the screen flashes to the splash screen saying "Ubuntu 10.04 . . . .", and then after the dots the kernel adds a "[xxx.xx] Power down." (or something similar) message. Then the system turns off.
That is just waaaay too much of the guts hanging out! Sure, tinkerers won't mind (maybe), but I'm sure it doesn't give a good impression to the general public. Compare it to cars. Tinkerers will mod their car to have parts of the engine show (equivalent to kernel messages flying by), but the general public just wants it all under the hood (ie the splash screen). Who would buy a car if some wires or hoses were sticking out between the seams of the hood, or where you could see parts hanging down below the car if you looked under it?
68 • button, button, who'e got the button (by bob_hayden on 2010-03-22 19:13:29 GMT from United States)
The idea is to make the transition from Ubuntu to Windows 3.1 smoother.
69 • Can you believe it! (by David on 2010-03-22 20:15:19 GMT from United States)
I just bought a new Honda and I can't believe it; they moved the antennae from the front right corner panel to the top of car. And worse than that, it is no longer a long metal thingy that I can remove to beat the jerk tailgating me.
The nerve of them; to move it’s location without asking us Honda drivers.
70 • Summary of distro-lists + Free training (by Jan at 2010-03-22 20:15:45 GMT from Netherlands)
Interesting summary of lists:
From the above, a link to free University Trainings:
71 • #64 (by oithona on 2010-03-22 20:25:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
Presumably this is on-topic under the heading of 'Open Sores'?
72 • This is the CHOICE? (by dsdauthor on 2010-03-22 20:38:40 GMT from United States)
"...just cannot accept the button revolution in Ubuntu, well, you are on the right web site to find an alternative ;-) ..."
So thats the mantra in [F]OSS etc... that your free to choice something else? What if nothing else suits your needs?
This is exactly what the KDE4.x dev's have done... if you don't like it your free to use some other WM/DE! Thats really helpful... I am a LOOOOONNNNGGGG TIME KDE user and fanboi... gnome, puhlease I had better WM/DE with GEM on a C64, and no IP entanglements. NOTHING comes close to KDE 3.5.10, nothing... so my choice is stick with this and wither away or accept crap I don't want/need, and my programs getting altered to the point I can no longer use them as all the features I use were removed as some dev didn't use them?
How about LISTENING and RESPECTING YOUR COMMUNITY aka ***YOUR USERS**** and [possibly monetary] CONTRIBUTORS!
I just can not fathom that this is the stance so prevalent... If some other company did this the tar/feathers/pitchforks and torches would be out en masse.
A change like this should have the OPTION to PUT THE BUTTONS WHERE THEY BELONG! TOP RIGHT! I don't need another 20 something dev telling my how to use my computer... I've got computers and code older than them! :)
73 • ubuntu buttons (by Napoli Bona at 2010-03-22 20:50:53 GMT from United States)
Easy button solution for ubuntu, install ubuntu tweak, place buttons where you wish!
74 • wow guys (by shady on 2010-03-22 21:12:45 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu 10.04 is still beta. If you can see some of the 'guts' still, well that's to be expected, no?
For all the left side button haters. Learn to use a mouse left-handed without changing the click settings. That might be why it doesn't bother me. Hmmmm....
75 • also (by shady on 2010-03-22 21:18:06 GMT from United States)
bad timing for poor dr. web. Like being put up against Monday Night Football...
76 • @69 and @72 (by Patrick on 2010-03-22 21:20:33 GMT from United States)
*lol* I love that!
Uhm... they probably are listening to their community/users/contributors. The biggest contributors are the devs. Do you think they don't like what they're making? And as for users, the majority of KDE users like KDE4. A few holdouts like you don't, and keep whining about it. But guess what: if the devs did listen to you, they would be ignoring their user base. Exactly what you're accusing them of. They're doing the right thing by not listening to the (vocal) minority. It is not because you're vocal and like to yell in forums that you represent the user community.
And who are you to decide where the buttons in Ubuntu "belong"? Are you the project leader / CTO of Ubuntu? No, didn't think so. Mark Shuttleworth is. And he decided the buttons belong top right, or at least, he is carefully evaluating it. That is his right. Ubuntu is his distro after all. If you really crave the kind of power to decide where the buttons in a distro "belong", you will have to do like he did and make your own distro. Then users can decide if they agree with you or him on where the buttons "belong".
77 • @74 (by Patrick on 2010-03-22 21:26:51 GMT from United States)
Yes, I know Ubuntu 10.04 is still beta. Unfortunately, every release distro I have ever used had such "guts hanging out"--that is my pet peeve. I sincerely hope Ubuntu 10.04 will not when it is released, but I don't have much hope, unfortunately. Since every distro seems to have this issue, I think there must be some serious plumbing involved in getting all the "guts" under the hood. Still a worthwhile effort though. Maybe KMS will eventually solve this issue?
78 • must be nice... (by Hmmm on 2010-03-22 21:27:11 GMT from United States)
It must be nice that the greatest "problem" you have is that Ubuntu has decided to move the buttons. Get out of your mom's basement and get a grip. Think about it.
79 • buttons (by Sean at 2010-03-22 21:45:48 GMT from United States)
Those of you complaining about the complainers now out-number them.
80 • linux mint and window controls (by Märt on 2010-03-22 21:46:04 GMT from Estonia)
I tried linux mint once and it ended quite fast, about half hour. I managed to break package management. I really hope that mint doesn't use ubuntu repositories anymore. Last time I used it, it did. Anyway, mintmenu was cool :)
As I said before (2. comment), I find new controls placement very comfortable. Learning curve was only few clicks. I can't understand why some people don't want to accept changes. It is amazing how much noise this change can make but I find it positive. There should be option to place titlebar to left (or right or bottom) :)
81 • Buttons (by dsdauthor on 2010-03-22 22:11:18 GMT from United States)
>Uhm... they probably are listening to their
>you're accusing them of. They're doing the right thing by not
No the KDE 4.x dev's have CLEARLY CHOSE to IGNORE the user input as they do not like the input. I've spent a lot of time reviewing the KDE forums of late and to say that the KDE 4.x dev's are ignoring the input of the users would be putting it mildly. Thread after thread, with post after post about why was this change or that changed... "poll/discussion..... agreed change." BS! I can find no such poll or discussion regarding it. Oh its the one that happened in the special KDE dev cave that only the dev was a part of.
>And who are you to decide where the buttons in Ubuntu "belong"? >Are you the project leader / CTO of Ubuntu? No, didn't think so.
I am the user who decides whether:
1) IF Your OS gets installed on x,000 desktops
2) IF a CONTRACT gets SIGNED FOR SUPPORT of those X,000 desktops ie: Canoncial gets PAID $$$$
So MY choice could impact your company. A choice like that will kill your chance of 1, and ultimately 2.
The uproar from users trying to close/maximize/minimize a window would be deafing... and yes the sheeple that use the PC's are just that... they do not adapt at all to changes.
> make your own distro. Then users can decide if they agree with >you or him on where the buttons "belong".
That's the same "choice:"
Heres what I (the dev) am GIVING YOU take it or leave it.
If they want to take a poll on what the default setting for them should be and the daft clueless people choose to have them top left, or top middle or remove them, fine. SO LONG AS I HAVE THE OPTION *AHEM*, !CHOICE! to put them where they BLOODY BELONG: TOP RIGHT! Exactly where Xerox PARC decided they should be, thank you! Now get off my lawn!
82 • @69 • Can you believe it! (by Anonymous at 2010-03-22 22:19:37 GMT from United States)
I bet you'd be pissed if Honda changed D for reverse, P for Drive and R for Park just to be different from every other car.
83 • buntu buttons, one topic to rule them all (by Barnabyh at 2010-03-22 22:30:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
It's the new form of vendor lock-in - once you got used to it you can't change. Only joking, but maybe there can be some truth to it?
84 • @ 81 (by Ivan P. Friely on 2010-03-22 23:14:51 GMT from United States)
The commercially unsuccessful BeOS used the exact same button layout, Canonical is just taking their layout and calling it innovative.[/brutalhonesty]
85 • Ubuntu (by Andrew at 2010-03-22 23:34:08 GMT from Australia)
I also had to look hard to see the changes. I can't see that this will affect myself or my family when using Ubuntu. Happy with the colour change, though who keeps the standard desktop anyway? :)
Looking forward to #! moving to Debian! I have some old laptops that have <= 192MB RAM so this will be great :)
Sad news though, I'm really liking Windows 7 and I'm finding myself dual booting into that side of the fence more and more, when previously it was the other way around. Ubuntu 10.04 (plus derivatives) needs to be fantastic to save the day!
86 • Restoring data (by Mahmoud Slamah on 2010-03-22 23:54:39 GMT from Egypt)
Peace on you
Many thanks for useful information about recover/restore deleted data :-)
In case all entire hard lost partition table we will lost all data of course ,
but my info we can re-partition the HDD with the same old partitions , size .... ,
by using fdisk or cfdisk or sfdisk as root user in terminal .
We will find all data
But i did not do this before , so i don't know this step enough or must do format with same previous type like ext3 , ext4 , ReiserFS .... using mkfs.ext3
We can store output of command [ fdisk -l ] on CD for example , may be need it in some day to restore HDD partition table and then data :-)
87 • Pants on the ground. (by Anonymous at 2010-03-23 00:04:40 GMT from United States)
Buttons on the screen
Buttons on the screen
I just can't believe... what I just seen.
Buttons on the screen
Buttons on the screen
I just can't believe... Ubuntu's being mean.
That's all I got. :D
88 • The only constant is change? (by RollMeAway at 2010-03-23 00:30:46 GMT from United States)
If button location really don't matter, leave them alone.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Must be many more important things to "fix".
On the other hand, if you really want to be different,
hide the buttons. Maybe on the bottom edge of each window.
One in each corner and one in the middle.
Be sure to scramble the order also.
How about adding a popup: "Are you sure you want to close this window""
Then be sure to add a 30 to 60 second timer before it actually closes!
89 • Buttons (by Merlin at 2010-03-23 03:28:06 GMT from Canada)
Personally I think the title bar is a waste of space. I like the way google chromium minimizes the space taken by the title bar, especially when maximized. As for button placement, the original developer/designer who put the buttons on the right, probably did so out of aesthetics... Having them on the left, closer to the window menu (and usually closer to the DE's application menu) is more ergonomic. Apple got that one right.
90 • Ubuntu Buttons (by Ghostdawg on 2010-03-23 03:43:18 GMT from United States)
I just installed Lucid in a vbox on Mdv and it doesn't look bad at all to me. The buttons on the left side looks rather nice. I believe Linux should look and feel different than Windows. It is a different OS and should look different.
Dr. Web does looks interesting. I'll have to check it out. I'm glad to hear #! is moving to Debian also, I just still don't like how its environment is set by default.
As always, glad for Monday's to roll around to check out a great read on DW.
91 • Photo recovery (by Merlin at 2010-03-23 03:44:46 GMT from Canada)
I've used a good photo recovery tool on Linux called photorec. In Debian it's included in the testdisk package if I recall correctly. It's a menu-driven terminal app, and quite easy to use. I've used it to recover pictures from USB drives and camera cards. Works on many different file systems. I think it works on hard disks too. They have a website.... http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec
92 • Mandriva Linux 2010.1 Beta 1 (by Roy Norris on 2010-03-23 03:55:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
The release date has been delayed until 31st March 2010.
93 • Feature Story (by danakim at 2010-03-23 04:03:20 GMT from United States)
It was nice to see the feature story about a distro that is relatively unknown. I hope more are covered in the future.
94 • Concise Unix commands ? (by Kevin at 2010-03-23 04:59:37 GMT from Canada)
I've read the tip about recovering files that were accidentally deleted. Something bothers me : we're in 2010, yet we still have to put up with confusing commands.
cp, cd, rm, mv, setenv, ... Is that the vocabulary of a dyslexic patient ? I think it's time to get rid of that old stuff. Why not use whole words instead, like copy or remove ?
95 • Smokescreen (by Crow on 2010-03-23 05:45:27 GMT from Mexico)
It amazes me how by changing some buttons placement Mark Shuttleworth has generated millions in publicity. It doesn't matter if people like it or not, they talk about Ubuntu features and that's invaluable. In the meantime: who talks about Mono or hardware detection? just a few, everybody else talks about appearance.
People just plays the game
96 • trash can at the command line: libtrash (by ozonehole at 2010-03-23 05:51:28 GMT from Taiwan)
If you have a "trash can" then your "deleted" files aren't really deleted, just moved to a trash folder. That's the way things usually work with a GUI, but what if you delete files at the command line?
Enter "libtrash." You can use the "rm" command and your files go into a trash can instead of being deleted. You can empty the trash can if you really want to kill something.
Developer's home page:
Google "libtrash" to learn more.
In Ubuntu, just "apt-get install libtrash"
97 • Re: 94 (by jake at 2010-03-23 06:40:17 GMT from United States)
"I've read the tip about recovering files that were accidentally deleted."
Cool. Did you learn anything?
"Something bothers me : we're in 2010, yet we still have to put up with confusing commands."
Confusing to whom, Kemosabe?
"cp, cd, rm, mv, setenv, ... Is that the vocabulary of a dyslexic patient ?"
No. It's shorthand. Ask your Grandmother (or Auntie, or any female in your life over 60 years old who was a professional secretary). When writing, or typing, sometimes it's really, really handy to have the ability to put words down as fast as you can speak.
"I think it's time to get rid of that old stuff."
Why? They are minimalistic, and they work. Besides, who are you going to pay to re-write the probably tens of billions of lines of scripts that power today's IntraWebTubes[tm]? Or are you volunteering? Legacy stuff that works isn't necessarily the best way to go about things with modern kit, but FlagDays are few and far between for a reason ...
"Why not use whole words instead, like copy or remove ?"
You can, if you like. Learn what shell functions and aliases are ... but be aware that you might break a few things if you're not careful. For extra credit, figure out the basics of tcl/tk if you want a GUI to do your personal CLI stuff.
98 • Re:96 (by jake at 2010-03-23 07:14:44 GMT from United States)
"Enter "libtrash." You can use the "rm" command and your files go into a trash can instead of being deleted. You can empty the trash can if you really want to kill something."
Why not just use a shell script, alias or shell function?
Kids these days ... they want it now, but they don't care how. Sad, that.
99 • Left/Right ubuntu button placement (by ForeverNoob at 2010-03-23 08:20:37 GMT from Israel)
I could get used to the new placement of those buttons, but here is the problem: Half my time (at work, not my choice) I use Windows where the buttons on the right, the second half (at home) I use Ubuntu with the buttons on the left. Now, each time I want to max/min/close a window, I'll have to stop and think: "Wait, where do I move my mouse now?". No more automatic hand movement. That's bad.
100 • Good luck to GhostBSD! (by Andy at 2010-03-23 08:43:17 GMT from New Zealand)
Interesting to see the GhostBSD project! It is really good to see BSD derivatives like this coming along. Very best wishes to all those involved with GhostBSD!
101 • Window buttons arrangement (by Ian MacGregor on 2010-03-23 09:25:00 GMT from United States)
I blogged about the titlebar button arrangement and included a tutorial to revert the change: http://ardchoille42.blogspot.com/2010/03/change-title-bar-button-layout-in.html
102 • Changing the titlebar (by Actarus at 2010-03-23 09:51:16 GMT from Italy)
It' s that the main problem of a linux user in these days?
103 • Ubuntu's Buttons (by dragonmouth on 2010-03-23 10:07:21 GMT from United States)
The *buntu community has become a religious cult like the Mac community. Their Fearless Leader can do no wrong. Whatever he decrees is the God's Honest Truth. When Shuttleworth or Jobs says JUMP!, their acolytes say HOW HIGH.
Shuttleworth touts *buntus as Newbie-friendly. They are, as long as the newbie does not want to make changes. Requiring the user to use gconf in CLI is not very newbie-friendly.
104 • Buttons, buttons, buttons (by megadriver at 2010-03-23 10:31:57 GMT from Spain)
Just get rid of window decorations altogether, and manage your windows with keyboard shortcuts. I did a long time ago, and never looked back. Openbox makes this very easy.
105 • Buttons 9 (by Memo at 2010-03-23 12:45:20 GMT from United States)
Nice way to call attention. First was the brown color Now the buttons, Great job Ubuntu! whats next?
106 • more buttons! (by bugman at 2010-03-23 12:46:32 GMT from United States)
well, the new button placement does make a little sense, considering the gnome layout
of course, i HATE the gnome layout, so . . .
my big wm complaint is related to #104 -- i am too damn lazy to learn to manage the thing w/ keys . . .
[my biggest problem is ME]
107 • Trisquel (by Rana at 2010-03-23 15:08:32 GMT from United States)
Why was not the Trisquel mentioned in "upcoming releases" of the great DWW?
It is ok I know of the difficulties of frequent publishing. ;)
But Trisquel is proven by Ubuntu and now ready for all to enjoy with enthusiasts (we learned of it by phone call from friends).
Thank you for many good information forays here at this site. Many here enjoy it.
108 • @ 82, 88 and user input (by Matt at 2010-03-23 15:27:43 GMT from Canada)
@82, that's great! I never could have thought of something that clever lol. Same with @88 lol.
As for those complaining about user input not being accepted, and those who complain about the complainers, one other commenter had it right: those who complain about the complainers now outnumber the complainers themselves. This is totally an issue in Linux today though. Distro's and other groups like dev's who develop KDE or Gnome or XFCE etc., don't really care what people think. They'll do whatever the hell they want to do, which is shown by Canonical's decision to move the buttons. Sure, it's not a big deal folks! It's just a few buttons, but I think what most people are complaining about is not just the buttons but what it shows about Canonical and their control over Ubuntu. They are now prepared to do whatever the hell they want to Ubuntu just because they can. There is nothing about moving the buttons that better's the Linux experience, it only could worsen it for a time until you get used to it, so they have no reason other than the fact that they're bored and want to switch shit up. Maybe choosing to put more drivers in, better programs in etc, would be a better use of your time rather that changing buttons.
I disagree with complaints about just the buttons... who gives a shit! But I think that it's about time that someone informs people like Mark Shuttleworth that his decisions are quickly losing Ubuntu users and it's about time he swallows his pride and does something for the good of the community rather than just him.
109 • Ubuntu 10.04 beta window buttons, dosemu (by samuel on 2010-03-23 15:57:44 GMT from Italy)
Like many others I am moving instinctively to the wrong direction every time I want to close a window. I would prefer something standard for all distros for sake of those who use two or more different ones.
For the rest I am enjoying the 10.04 beta, the only difficulty so far has been dosemu not launching. On the terminal they said what was to be done and blindly followed the instructions with no idea of what they meant, changing some number to 0.
I like the colours.
With 9.10 I had problems with visual effects. This time no.
Thanks to canonical and all the Linux world.
110 • @108 (by Patrick on 2010-03-23 15:58:26 GMT from United States)
"""This is totally an issue in Linux today though. Distro's and other groups like dev's who develop KDE or Gnome or XFCE etc., don't really care what people think. They'll do whatever the hell they want to do"""
Maybe you don't realize this, but this has nothing to do with "Linux today". Linux has always been this way. And why shouldn't it be? The devs have an itch so they scratch it. It has always been like that in Linux, so get used to it! Mark Shuttleworth is sort of a newcomer to the game, but what he does is no different than what Patrick Volkerding has been doing for years. If you want a change, write code and submit it. If they don't want it, fork it and make your own. That's how it used to be. Only recently has the Linux world started to pay any attention to non-developer users. You can partially thank Ubuntu for that, but all they seem to get in return for their effort is a bunch of whining users.
The only thing that has changed over the years, unfortunately, are the users. Users used to be eagerly anticipating new developments and give the devs the benefit of the doubt when they didn't understand decisions that were made. Now they just complain and whine and fill forums with uninformed nonsense like you just did. Did you bother to find out why he moved the buttons? He did provide reasons other than being bored, you know. I think it isn't Mark Shuttleworth who needs to swallow his pride. Maybe you should swallow your pride and inform yourself.
Sometimes I regret what success has done to the Linux community. It used to be that most in the community were helping to pull. Now only some are pulling and the majority seem to prefer to be dead weight, or worse.
111 • @110 (by Matt at 2010-03-23 16:36:11 GMT from Canada)
Fine, I'm a relative newcomer to Linux as well, 5 or 6 years, and I've mainly been using GUI programs and distro's and have not really delved into development and CLI and all that. So yes, I'll admit that I'm probably a member of the dead weight group that you mention. However, I would think that mass adoption was the goal of Linux since the start? That the community members who were all helping to pull at the beginning were doing so to make a product good enough that the masses could leave Windows behind and switch to what they had created over a period of years. I don't think it was ever Linux's goal to be only for nerds with thick glasses sitting in their parents basement at age 30 till 3AM each day typing away in a CLI. Linux, I would think, was always intended to become good enough that anyone and their dog could use it.
So that is why I stand by my statement that it is a problem with Linux TODAY. Back 10 years ago, it was never an issue. Everyone who used it, developed it and that was what gave rise to tons of distro's was that every developer who didn't like something the project manager was doing could leave and make their own distro. TODAY however, many of the "dead weight" users are unable to simply create their own distro. This is why, TODAY, Linux has to start listening to their users or else users like me who are unable to create my own distro, and unable to get big shots like Mark Shuttleworth to listen to my opinion, are going to leave. And once we all leave, poor Mark is going to wish he had listened to us. One or two or even 100 of us leaving isn't going to make a difference. But the way that things are going, when thousands and thousands of users leave, he's not going to be too pleased.
112 • @ 108, 111 (by fernbap at 2010-03-23 16:59:44 GMT from Portugal)
Funny, but i saw those same kinds of comments relating to Windows Vista.
Do you know what was the most "community driven" windows version ever? Windows Vista, the greatest flop ever for Microsoft.
The community made it happen, and then complained about the result.
Then, Microsoft decided to take their own decisions and made Windows 7, and the same community that bitched Microsoft for not listening to them is now praising windows 7.
Thousands will leave because of button placement? Don't make me laugh.
1. You can change it in 2 minutes;
2. You make it using a program that is no different from windows registry editor (btw, try changing policies on windows).
Of course, many desktop users think they have the "right" to not ever having to type a command. Can you describe any more childish behavior?
113 • @111 (by Patrick on 2010-03-23 17:03:18 GMT from United States)
I know most users can't create their own distro. My point is this: If the devs would listen to every single complaint of their users, users who usually don't inform themselves to be aware of the bigger picture, they would be totally paralyzed and nothing would happen. No matter what change is made, someone is always going to complain.
So have a little faith in the way Linux works and is developed. Accept that maybe a dev does know better than you do, because he has a vision. Don't assume it is just because of arrogance or pride or because they're bored or whatever. Most decisions made take a lot of thought and long term planning. Most users who complain about them don't even want to be bothered to find out what the thinking behind decisions is, but still they assume they know better.
Look at the great progress that has been made in the Linux world. Over a span of fifteen years Linux has gone from a toy project to a system that powers most servers and super computers in the world and many high-end phones and desktops. In that span of time, a lot of decisions were made that upset a lot of people. That is what progress does, but look at how far we've come. If no one had tried anything new, if every dev had bowed to the wishes of users resisting change, we would be nowhere in comparison.
So please, don't turn a mosquito into an elephant. The position of these buttons is not important. If Mark Shuttleworth can come up with something useful to do with the mostly useless window header bar, and it takes moving the buttons, it will all be worth it.
114 • buttons (by kennnn on 2010-03-23 17:21:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
As Beyonce said in one of her songs "to the left, to the left"
Ubuntu users seriously need to stop being spoon fed, and use a real distro. Ubuntu tweak, lmao, whats wrong with manually editing a config in vim or emacs? Id rather know whats going on under the hood and customize to my wishes and needs. Its the xp of gnu/linux.
115 • Undeleting files (by Rarsa on 2010-03-23 18:23:06 GMT from Canada)
I have a couple of posts that may help people using Linux to undelete files on MS file systems
Undeleting FAT files
Undeleting NTFS files
116 • Dr.Web LiveCD (by Anonymous at 2010-03-23 18:58:01 GMT from Canada)
I downloaded and burnt a cd, and took it to a friend who only uses Windows.
The mouse would not work on the default selection. The "safe" (cli) version is running now.
I will post again if there are any more surprises
117 • Cults and stuff (by Hmmm on 2010-03-23 20:40:54 GMT from United States)
@103 Ubuntu users and Mac users are equally obnoxious? I'm not so sure on that one. No one is more obnoxious than Mac users. Canonical will have to re-double their efforts to gain ground. Maybe they will be delivering the 180-proof cult Kool-Aid with their new music store. The upod, uphone and upad are coming soon to a retailer near you. All the cool kids are getting them. Don't miss out!
@ 114 Just took a look at the Ubuntu Tweak's site. I'll see your lmao and raise you an omg. That's definitely some serious spoon-feeding. Not surprised, the history of hand-holding is long. Automatix and another similar breakage tool come to mind. At least these "useful apps" provide some comic relief. I think I will blog all about how much your Ubuntu can "rock" after using Tweak.
118 • Ubuntu (by Beaver on 2010-03-23 20:45:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just use openbox. Problem solved.
119 • @ 112, @113 (by Mat at 2010-03-23 22:10:15 GMT from Canada)
I would first of all argue the Windows Vista vs. Windows 7 for the most community driven. Windows 7 is hands down more community driven. It was heralded as an SP for Vista. People complained about Vista and Microsoft changed those complaints in Windows 7. There are very few new and unique things to 7, it's mainly taking what was Vista and improving it.
As for the thousands that would leave... it's not all because of button placement. It's more the attitude behind Canonical that is shown by the button placement. If they continue with this attitude it will go far beyond a mere thing like button placement. THAT is what is going to make people flock away from Ubuntu.
As for 113, yes, I know that listening to everyone and their own personal stupid ideas is not going to get a distro going anywhere. But when the entire community raises such a stink over this, when it's filling up countless posts in forums, on sites like this, it's all over the place that people hate what they're doing... then change that!!! If you just had one or two people complaining about something, so what, they can find something else to use. But when you have an entire community in an uproar over something, it's time to take notice. This is the attitude that I hate about Ubuntu, this is what makes them annoying is the attitude that some random guy named Mark Shuttleworth, knows better than an entire community of users. Fine, maybe if he likes the buttons on the left hand side, he can move them on his own personal computers, but let the rest of the world use Ubuntu the way they want. And don't think that I'm just whining about the buttons, it's not just that, again, let me say, it's the attitude behind it that I hate.
120 • 119 response (by Hmmm on 2010-03-23 22:50:18 GMT from United States)
You're missing the point. Mark's cash backing the project means he gets the final say. Whether it's buttons, that idiotic janitor they hired, the music store, whatever.
When PV made the jump to KDE4 on 13, there was no drama from Slackers. Why? Because they know what they're doing and are comfortable with making their own decisions on how their systems work without being coddled. I'm not so sure that their ability to rtfm is something exclusive to that community.
121 • @119 (by Patrick on 2010-03-23 22:58:48 GMT from United States)
Now you even presume to speak for the "entire community" and "the rest of the world". Talk about delusions of grandeur. I for one am a part of this community and so are others here commenting that the button arrangement is no big deal. Stop speaking for me and others who don't agree with you. I didn't elect you to represent me.
I for one am interested in seeing what a "random guy" named Mark Shuttleworth is going to do with the title bar, so I hope he doesn't give in to all the yelling and screaming of a vocal minority that thinks they can dictate what Ubuntu should be. Hey, maybe this is even a way to weed out the complainers and whiners from the ranks of Ubuntu users, who knows? Let's hope it works and they leave in droves! :)
122 • @119 (by fernbap at 2010-03-23 23:17:06 GMT from Portugal)
"It's more the attitude behind Canonical that is shown by the button placement. If they continue with this attitude it will go far beyond a mere thing like button placement."
There are several things you seem not to realize. 10.04 will be a LTS release, and as with any LTS release the target market is the companies. And you should be aware that this is a critical moment to Canonical and Ubuntu.
It is in your interest that Canonical has a good result, for the sake of Ubuntu. That is why there is CentOS and Fedora, because they target different customers. However, there is only one Ubuntu. LTS releases are meant for enterprises in the first place.
We live in the real world, not an "ideal" world driven by a community of freeloaders.
Mint is a good example of a community driven distro, directed to the end user. But Mint wouldn't have been possible without the Clem's great work and a constant stream of donations from the community.
123 • button, button, who's got the button (by RB at 2010-03-24 00:03:53 GMT from United States)
If all it took to get the Ubuntu whiners to leave is the button placement, I wonder why Mark didn't done it sooner!
They don't want a fix, which has been given them on a silver platter, apparently they just want to complain.
I too hope the whiners leave on their train and never look back. If they go to Fedora, then I feel sorry for you guys.
124 • Re: 120, Slack 12.2-current & KDE 4.x (by jake at 2010-03-24 00:51:57 GMT from United States)
Well, to be fair ... When KDE 4.x appeared in Slack 12.2-current, there was a fair amount of grumbling about "not ready for prime time" amongst the Slack insiders. It lasted maybe half a day, and then they just got on with it. I'm running KDE 4.x on this box, but most of you would, on first glance, think it was KDE 3.5.10 ...
Slackware is, in essence, PVs (and his wife's!) personal OS. He chooses what goes into it, and when ... and for the most part, us Slackware users are pretty happy about it ... But then, he's building an OS designed to get on with the day to day needs of a computer developer, not an OS designed for hand holding. Funny thing is that my computerphobe Mom & computer illiterate Great Aunt are both happy users of a Slackware varietal.
125 • Jesse Smith's Excellent File Recovery Article (by Bruce on 2010-03-24 01:24:22 GMT from United States)
A good way to not have to restore mistakenly deleted files is to try to avoid deleting them in the first place. Put some aliases in your .bashrc file like so:
alias rm="rm -i"
alias mv="mv -i"
... and so forth. The commands will pest you with a "Do you mean it?" message, which does take an extra keystroke, but it also gives you a chance to reconsider.
126 • button (by Anonymous at 2010-03-24 01:28:52 GMT from United States)
Didn't Icewm or Enlightenment around kernel2.2 have built-in gui accessable settings to have the window buttons where the user wanted? (Left or Right)
Apparently many who complain may not have much experience using other window managers.
Why does any distribution have to cater to the masses?
When Win 3.1 changed to 95 to 98 to ME to XP to Vista to 7
I'm sure there were usability and interface changes too.
I know there was complaints with Vista and it's office package.
Did Microsoft listen and change them back?
Fact is people use computers and expect them to work
the way that they were exposed to them early on.
Someone said change is bad (resisted).
Someone else said to fix the buttons in Gnome use CLI gconf.
Also in KDE (I don't use KDE) it is a gui controlled adjustment.
My choice is Window Maker, it has a left and a right titlebar button.
And it does not confuse me when I use Windows at work.
Although I haven't found window shading available in Windows.
Window shading (rolling-up) is a usefull feature for me.
127 • @ 94 + 97 sillyness (by Anonymous at 2010-03-24 09:56:55 GMT from United States)
1.) alias move=mv
2.)ln -s /bin/cd /bin/changedirectory
ln -s /bin/mv /bin/move
ln -s /bin/rm /bin/remove
You could also just rename the executables at build time without recoding anything, but why would you want to? It is silly and trivial.
128 • ref 127 (by rb at 2010-03-24 13:28:22 GMT from United States)
Also why type more than you have too. The Unix two character commands have been with us for decades.
129 • Ubuntu buttons to old place (by Jan at 2010-03-24 13:34:40 GMT from Netherlands)
This should end the discussion.
Now other interesting subjects?
130 • Buttons (by Anonymous at 2010-03-24 13:40:36 GMT from Germany)
Mac OS X had the buttons on the left from the very begining. So there is nothing new in Ubuntu. It is amazing that some can rant about a non-issue.
131 • In the beginning .. (by RollMeAway at 2010-03-24 16:21:01 GMT from United States)
An interesting read on what makes a distribution:
132 • Margarita Manterola (by Radimir on 2010-03-24 18:29:54 GMT from Costa Rica)
GO AHEAD, MARGARITA!
And... Yes, Clem is going to Debian...
133 • so excelent system that i has (by victor carlos lara hill on 2010-03-24 20:29:38 GMT from Mexico)
i was used windos for overal 9 years and i has been on troubles and blues screem and virouses really i have to apresiate the linux system ... i just used rpm likes madriva
pclinuxos , and others like s ubunto my best ...i prefer pclinuxos and justr simple i prefers
linux 1000 at times at times ... that windows ...
and so easy use tools for create galleriesd and up to one server and the facilities that we have all in linux for up one server on on own comṕuter used like apache and samba servers
so great linux to califiquite with ten ...
and its so presise that architecture on swap system and est3 , adn 4 for partitioner one disk
its so superior than windows ...
swap system help to increse the velocity on use of programs and internet deschargers and other so for this and much more
linux system its so superior
134 • button, button who's got the button (by hab on 2010-03-24 20:34:54 GMT from Canada)
This whole button kerfuffle just completely escapes me.
I have been at so many guis and operating systems that i guess i tend to see the similarities rather than the differences between them. Most of the "conversation" seems to be based on personal likes, dislikes biases etc.
So much wind!
In a somewhat tangential vein i found this page an interesting read: http://www.linuxformat.com/content/exaggeration-and-lying-lusers
What if they quit making/building buttons?
135 • RE: 134 (by Landor at 2010-03-24 22:23:40 GMT from Canada)
Hey Hab, How ya been? Funny, I just mentioned you here last week, in regard to E-17.
I found the article interesting until he got to one point and it completely ruined everything else he said, key area is highlighted by asterisks:
"This same situation is what makes netbooks so cool: they are, essentially, mobile internet devices. It doesn't matter whether they run Linux, Windows or Haiku, because for most people they are little more than a portal to the internet - *if you have to care that it runs Linux, clearly something is wrong*."
If I use a computing tool I do care and I don't think it's wrong at all to care. Odd statement coming from someone who writes for LXF. I guess that's why I don't buy it and am glad now I don't. :)
I hope you're enjoying week thus far.
Keep your stick on the ice...
136 • re#135 (by hab on 2010-03-24 23:32:15 GMT from Canada)
Old and grumpy but thanks for asking!
About your observation landor, from the context of the article i grokked a rather different sense. At the level the author suggests, it should make no difference what the box runs on. Connectivity is the the driver. In a narrow sense, of course.
For me personally yes it would be of interest but then i am only a case of one.
Any hardware comes my way, first thing i look for is linux for the thing. I think i mentioned before that i had recently acquired a Palm Tungsten E2. Finally got linux running on it. I've gone back to palmos because the damn thing is too handy and useful but still, it was an interesting experience.
Picked up an older first gen xbox. Now i am educating myself on it. Plan to turn it into a radius server for my wireless sytem which happens to also run linux.
Apparently ms subsidized the hardware when they sold the thing. Now i get to run linux on it! I can live with that.
It is, at one level starting to become a box is a box is a box.
It's all about the journey!
137 • Changing from ubuntu to.... (by Him on 2010-03-25 01:51:55 GMT from India)
Using the latest Lucid i feel too troubles like sudden shifting of the close,-minimize buttons towards left, really difficulties to connect with Internet via mobile broadband, delay booting in compare with 9.10, without changing any hardware config. more rapidly the computer being hanging so on. leading me to change my OS.
138 • Buttons (by Anonymous at 2010-03-25 02:33:33 GMT from United States)
I've experimented with buttons and tool bars on the left side and seem to be OK until the screen saver kicks in and then the first letter seems to get chopped of the left side when the screen saver turns off on a mouse move of something. I then figured out you can turn the monitor off and then back on to move it back over to the right just a little bit. It just gets old after a while.
139 • Restoring Deleted Files (Questions and Answers (by Jesse Smith)) (by Pan on 2010-03-25 03:24:14 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the good info on how to restore deleted files on ext3/ext4 filesystems. I'll have to try it sometime. I figure it's better to test/try it and learn how before I really really need it.. Afterall.. accidents/mistakes do happen! Especially when the hour is late and you're getting over-tired...
I have a couple of similar questions. Is there a way to restore a complete directory, subdirectoies and files on these filesystems? Also, is there a way to restore deleted files/directories on BSD UFS/UFS2 filesystems? I have looked for info on restoring deleted files/directories on UFS2 (Yep, I actually did make this mistake on a directory on FreeNAS with a mouse mis-click!), but in most cases everything I've found says you're basically out of luck. I did shutdown and make an image of the whole drive (GNU ddrescue) so I had a separate copy to play with just in case recovery was/is possible, and the drive has not been mounted since the mishap. I have tried using forensic software (Helix, autopsy, etc.) as well as photorec, but these only find files that were NOT deleted (at least it confirmed the backup image is good). In my case, I wacked a whole directory structure (all of file type *.GHO/GHS, *.PDF, *.TXT).
As for the likley comments on doing backup.. (yeah, I'm sure they are coming) this was the backup. The original data was on an external USB drive that was starting to have problems and I suspected they were either filesystem related or the drive was failing. Anyway, diagnostics confirmed the hardware was OK, and re-partitioning and reformatting took care of it. Unfortunately, the mishap happened during the process of moving data back from the FreeNAS drive to the USB drive (after pronouncing it healthy). Due to the large amount of data, I just don't have the space for three copies of everything. So yes, I had two copies.. until I had to wipe the one on the USB drive. Any info or suggestions would be appreciated.
140 • Trisquel Release is the most noticeable Distro release in some weeks (by Angel Arce at 2010-03-25 04:03:45 GMT from Europe)
The Trisquel release, just two days ago, is in may view the most noticeable Distro release in some weeks.
Is not a release from last week, so maybe it should be in next DistroWatch Weekly comments instead. anyway, it will be commented, probably, in both this week and next one. And it really deserves it.
Trisquel is known and used by many, but still not as many as the potential of such a good distribution deserves.
Is one of the Linux Distros that I use daily in one of my PCs. Being Trisquel, Debian Squeeze, and Mint the ones I use to see the evolution, and to establish comparisons on the Debian/Ubuntu branch; and Arch, and Frugalware the others.
I would like to see as well other Distros, somehow like Trisquel, but based on Frugalware and Arch. These two latter distributions are really good, quick, responsive, innovative, useful, and solid (the best Linux pillars for distros imho besides debian and fedora).
Trisquel is, in my view, what Ubuntu should be. Is Ubuntu/Debian based, but improved (a la mint...). Is solid, nice looking, easy, and have many useful applications. But unlike Mint or Ubuntu itself, it 'ONLY' contains Free/Libre Open source software; to the point that is one of the Distros approved by the FSF.
This is really important since if not for the respect of the Free/Libre software licenses, the world of Open Source and Linux would never achieved the level and importance it has nowadays. Filling Distros with 'NON Free/Libre open source software' will make some things easier, maybe, at first sight, but in the medium and long therm will only hurt Linux distros, and Free/Libre software. And what is worst it will bring to Linux or BSD all the problems and defects of 'MsWindows'.
That is why is so important that distros include "exclusively' Free/Libre software, in the way Trisquel do. And more and more distros are doing it: gNewSense, Ututo, Trisquel, Musix, BLAG, Dragora, Dynebolic, Kongoni, Venenux...
Trisquel, is well maintained for what i can say as a user, and has a big potential for the future.
They even have some special versions with long term support (LTS), for education, or PRO for 'enterprise'.
Since I am still using the version 3.01 I can not comment on the latest version released just some days ago, but I am installing it and I, probably, will post some comments here next week.
141 • Why was not the Trisquel mentioned in 'upcoming releases' commnet 107 (by Angel Arce at 2010-03-25 04:18:25 GMT from Europe)
I forgot to mention that I agree with the comment 107 of rana:
"Why was not the Trisquel mentioned in "upcoming releases" of the great DWW?"
Well, I think more attention should be given to this Linux Distribution, and that it should be mentioned in the "upcoming releases", as well as gNewSense, Musix, Ututo; and maybe some other too.
142 • RE: 141 Why was not the Trisquel mentioned in 'upcoming releases' (by ladislav on 2010-03-25 04:47:56 GMT from Taiwan)
Wrong question. A better one would be "why doesn't Trisquel publish a roadmap or a release schedule"?
As with any distribution, I can only add it to the list of upcoming releases if it provides some sort of a release plan which it makes available publicly.
143 • Re:139 (by jake at 2010-03-25 06:54:53 GMT from United States)
"As for the likley comments on doing backup.. (yeah, I'm sure they are coming) this was the backup."
'The backup'? Just the one? There's your problem ... Been there, done that ... Bought the T-shirt, then I saw $$ and now I sell T-shirt franchises :-)
"The original data was on an external USB drive that was starting to have problems and I suspected they were either filesystem related or the drive was failing."
My sysadmin senses are queasy ...
"Anyway, diagnostics confirmed the hardware was OK, and re-partitioning and reformatting took care of it."
For now ... USB drives and drivers are, in my mind, iffy at best.
"Unfortunately, the mishap happened during the process of moving data back from the FreeNAS drive to the USB drive (after pronouncing it healthy)."
OK, so you still have a copy on the FreeNAS drive? Or were you literally `mv`ing it? There's your second (potential) problem ... Never delete important copied primary data until you're absolutely certain that the copy is valid ...
"Due to the large amount of data, I just don't have the space for three copies of everything. So yes, I had two copies.. until I had to wipe the one on the USB drive."
Is your data important, or not? Storage is really, really inexpensive these days ...
"Any info or suggestions would be appreciated."
Me, I have geographically diverse backup servers (timezone, continent and hemisphere). Might be difficult for you to implement, from a financial perspective (mine are essentially free, I write odd things into contracts occasionally) ... but have you considered the old standby of a monthly "full system" backup on a second disk-set, with a second copy in your safety deposit box; a weekly snapshot of the changes in the complete system snail-mailed to your mother (or other trusted person), and daily incremental backups kept locally? It's fairly easy to (mostly) automate ... Not fool-proof, perhaps, but good enough for most.
I won't go into recovery of your lost data here ... Basic bottom line is that UNIX[tm]-style systems aren't WinDOS FAT.x. The early 1980s Norton-derived mindset that "I can recover deleted files without taking precautions in advance" is a concept that should be avoided under Linux, for the simple reason that un*x file systems have been multi-user and multi-tasking right from the git-go ... WinDOS never has been. Not really.
144 • Dr.Web Live CD (by wombat on 2010-03-25 11:16:33 GMT from Australia)
The article on Dr.Web Live CD is really interesting and immediately I wanted to download and try the product. However, the ISO from a couple of days ago and the current ISO do not work in Default or safe GUI (Xorg) mode on VirtualBox or on HP or Dell PCs (that I've tested) - it just hangs there lwith no keyboard or mouse response. Has anyone else found this?
145 • Recovery from UFS (by Jesse at 2010-03-25 12:39:58 GMT from Canada)
Losing a backup like that is a royal pain. Did that once when I moved data instead of copying data from a backup. Those two-letter commands all look the same at 2am. Anyway, I haven't any experience restoring data on UFS, but there is a good forum discussion about it here:
They mention a number of possible tools to use. Some of them you've tried already, but there are some there I was aware of. Worth a read.
146 • @144 re: Dr. Web xorg issues (by stuckinoregon on 2010-03-25 13:03:42 GMT from United States)
Yes, I can confirm the same issue. I believe someone mentioned it a little earlier in this weeks posts as well. Was still able to use it in Safe Mode and perform updates and scans. Could be very interesting since they have commercial offerings and enterprise class products as well. (Unless normal people are now maintaining Domino or Exchange servers!)
147 • Problems with Dr.Web Live CD (by Barnabyh at 2010-03-25 15:01:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sorry to hear you're experiencing these difficulties. I've never had any problems of this sort in 5/6 years now. I tested it in Vbox as well to take screenshots, my main workstation has an ASUS Deluxe mobo and no problems there either. I've never owned any Dell or HP machines so unable to confirm.
I would not have recommended it had I encountered these problems.
148 • Re: 145 • Recovery from UFS (by Jesse at 2010-03-25 12:39:58 GMT from Canada) (by Pan on 2010-03-25 23:33:30 GMT from United States)
Hey thanks for the link Jesse. Posts like yours are what makes it worth asking the question. Unfortunately I had already read/seen that one before. Bummer. I've done quite a bit of reading/research before posting just in case I could find an answer out there. I've tried several of the tools mentioned in that link and others including sleuthkit etc. (I have a mix of XP, Linux,BSD etc to work with to run them on). I also read somewhere that someone was actually able to recover a deleted file from UFS (might have been UFS2, not sure), but if I remember right he knew the exact filename and some of the contents (I think it was even text format), and recovery required some data carving and re-piecing chunks of the file back together afterwards etc. which is complex enough with just one simple file. I was hoping there may be a way someone knows to do this using the tools available. I'm not even sure a disk recovery company like Ontrack etc. can do it given the filesystem (I think I'll send an email just to ask them though), but even if they can this data really isn't worth the price (although it would be really nice to get it back). It's just something I'd like to know and learn, for the knowledge and experience.. and because I'm sure it would come in handy. I have also found many times that things people say are not possible actually are.. So I'm not one to give up quickly on something just because someone said it's not possible.. unless there's some really good and accurate technical information and reasons why to back it up.
149 • Re: 148 (Pan) (by jake at 2010-03-26 01:19:24 GMT from United States)
I managed to read yours before the mods deleted it. IMO, it should have been allowed to stand, the opinions of other people don't bother me a bit. It's only ASCII (maybe 30 years of Usenet have desensitized and/or jaded me a trifle). But then I have no say in the matter in this place.
Anyway, please re-read mine. My entire point is that all of us have fat-fingered a command-line, and learned that prevention is the key to losing data on UNIX[tm]-style systems. Proper backup is one of those keys. It wasn't necessarily directed at you, personally, but rather at other folks who aren't fully aware that their *buntu system is, in all reality, a network in a box, and by using that system they are the sysadmin.
If I were trolling (which I never do in this forum), I would have pointed out that Mark "Space Cadet" Shuttleworth is probably just trying to make *buntu the OS of choice on Macs, because he sure hasn't made much of an impression (percentage-wise) on the WideWorldOfRedmond(tm).
As for my c.v. ... I won't post it here, but I was (un)lucky enough to be a guinea-pig at ken's first series of lectures at Berkeley. No, I don't have a beard.
150 • CrunchBang (by Ralphie Ralph at 2010-03-26 01:54:16 GMT from United States)
CrunchBang is worthy of noting. I will really get interested when it moves to Slackware. It's just a matter of time.
151 • Crunchbang 10 "Statler" (by Robin on 2010-03-27 01:42:20 GMT from United States)
Debian awesomeness made easy. If nothing else, the new Crunchbang will be an easy way to install Debian Squeeze with a choice of Xfce or Openbox. Not that the Debian installer is difficult - in fact Crunchbang 10 uses the Debian textual installer. But lightweight applications are pre-installed, multimedia codecs, some non-free drivers, etc. I've been testing the Alpha 1 release - and it's hard to believe it's Alpha at all. Of course, it's Debian Squeeze - the only thing Alpha about it is the Crunchbang configuration. Its minimalist, stark beauty belies the brilliance and genius behind it.
152 • re: 151 (by alank at 2010-03-27 04:59:20 GMT from United States)
+1 for crunchbang statler. corenominal's project is very nicely done.
153 • Crunchbang 10 on old laptop (by awong at 2010-03-27 05:55:48 GMT from Canada)
I find the Crunchbang alpha stable on my 11 year old Toshiba Satellite 2595CDT laptop with 192Mb RAM. Wireless is working very well with a D-Link DWA-652 network card. Youtube is a slide-show but the Internet connection is fine for browsing and e-mail. I'm giving to system to someone who is in town for a while and needs to connect with the net and do some writing.
154 • Sabayon 5.2 x86 Kde DVD (by RollMeAway at 2010-03-27 18:41:41 GMT from United States)
Sorry to see Sabayon has followed debian testing/sid, and now uses grub2.
I happen to have one of those ignored computer bios' that grub2 doesn't work with.
Most of my computers work fine with grub2. I have 2 that simply don't.
This one is an award bios dated 1/27/05, mb is elitegroup PT800CE-A(V1.0).
Anyway, I booted into the new installation with a live CD, installed grub 0.97 ok.
Could not remove grub2 with equo (pkg mngr) as it wants to remove the kernel too.
I manually deleted grub2, working ok now.
Otherwise, the install takes 10.1 GB of HD space for a kde4.4.1 desktop.
At least 2 GB of that is every language known to man.
So far everything seems to work ok, net, sound, printers etc.
Nvidia was installed at installation automatically. 3D desktop works "out of the box"
If you have a recent computer with lots of ram and >=15 GB partition,
you will enjoy Sabayon.
155 • RE: 136 & 154 (by Landor at 2010-03-27 23:44:44 GMT from Canada)
"Old and grumpy but thanks for asking!"
I'm feelin' the same as of late, spring hasn't sprung for these bones, or mood. :)
I did get the same take on it as you, which was fine as he was pointing out that the device should be appreciated for the job it does and such. I was more taken back by the fact that the author practically said, well, hey, it's a netbook, a mobile computing device (which is what matters here), if it has windows on it, great, who cares about Linux not getting on them in the end.
He didn't say that of course but that's how his comment struck me. Since Distrowatch has a section in LXF I wonder how Ladislav feels about the author's article. Ladislav? Any thoughts on it?
I remember you mentioning the palm and that would be a blast. I've never messed with them myself. Soon we'll be able to put Linux on digital toasters. :)
We had Linux on an xbox and ended up giving the system away. What did you use for wireless for it? We also mucked with Linux on the PS3 which was fun too. Linux is a blast all the way around. Sadly, we're growing out of the whole experimentation phase, well, partly, and just sticking with out day to day tasks.
I've been busy (and lazy), my son's been busy, and will probably get busier if his application for the reserves in the Signal Corps goes through. His recruiter was a huge open source fan and worked with sat communications and such. I got to talk to him and he said Open Source software was a passion for him.
Tonight I'm actually cleaning up a couple systems (P4 3.0 2gb ram) to donate to a young woman needing a computer for school in the fall and another for her nephew. Both will be Linux of course and both are fine with it.
Did you do an update with Sabayon after installing? Also, would you mind posting the contents of the make.conf file? I'm curious to see if it's changed in any way. I was going to download it myself and to be truthful, I considered it a total waste of bandwidth just to take a look at the make.conf and see how updates faired for it. So, when I saw your post I figured I'd ask.
Keep your stick on the ice...
156 • @155 Landor (by RollMeAway at 2010-03-28 02:07:19 GMT from United States)
Sorry too late for the make.conf file. Editing that is one of the first things I do.
Original comes bloated as it needs to cover every computer in the world.
Original was too large to post here also.
Only two firefox updates so far. Just been relased one day.
157 • re#155 xbox und palm (by hab on 2010-03-28 17:50:36 GMT from Canada)
The xbox is slated to become a wireless client authentication server running linux/RADIUS, headless, accessible via ssh and hard lined to my router/4 port hub/wireless access point. Actually a good cheap fit appropriate to my needs.
The palm is 'n whole n'other kettle of fish.
It is, for me, an extremely useful device. It contains a small subset of my tunes perhaps a 100 or so, 6-8 of which are full albums, it's got 16-18 books on it, stuff i'm reading right now, a chess game, a solitaire card game, a hearts game, a space shooter game, and a nifty emulator called Little John Palm (LJP) that plays a whole lot of handheld and older console video game stuff. Plus so much more, finances, shopping/to do lists. It can play movies and videos, killer sound with decent ear buds. Even though palm os is closed source, all of the stuff on my palm is Free software mostly GNU. Not a commercial program in the bunch.
The only thing that as held me back from playing more with linux on it is that i only have one 1gig memory card for it. Soon as i get another one it's back to linux.
Anyhow this little device has really lead me to think about what one needs and then wants in a handheld computer. Something more like the size of a thin paperback, large hi res display, multi tasking os, wifi, blutooth, cell phone, gps, (virtual)/key board and on and on.
Linux.........ya just gotta love it!
158 • re#157 • re#155 xbox und palm (by hab on 2010-03-28 18:40:30 GMT from Canada)
Oh, and BTW that digital toaster is odds on prolly running on embed linux.
The wave that is about to break will be awesome indeed!
159 • Dell Mini 10 Ubuntu (by Merlin at 2010-03-28 20:14:48 GMT from Canada)
Hmmmm, now powered by Windows 7!
I couldn't find any more Linux powered laptops on Dell Canada website.
160 • @154 & 155 Grub2 (by Merlin at 2010-03-28 20:23:38 GMT from Canada)
With the advent of grub2, I have finally graduated to 'no longer touches grub config files'. Maybe I'm just getting older or the world is getting more complicated, but I'm sure grub isn't getting any easier to understand. The passionate comments in section 1.4 of the grub legacy documentation make me think that the grub developers want to make grub their own little OS.
Which is all fine to me, cause I think I'll just let my distro handle all that suff from now on!
161 • System rescue and Live CD's (by Barnabyh at 2010-03-28 20:50:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
Actually there seems to be another rescue CD that provides ClamAV as well, at one point it was apparently called ClamAV Live CD:
The more you search the more...it's all out there.
162 • +1 for Crunchbang (by KevinC at 2010-03-29 05:49:50 GMT from United States)
DL'ed the 32-bit version (Openbox & XFCE) to test on my netbook, which has been quite picky about Linux distros (eee 1002HA). Either the sound won't work, no matter how many hoops I jump thru or the wireless drops with suspend & requires reboot or the fonts are fuzzy and hard on the eyes. So far the XFCE Crunchbang has rocked....decent fonts, suspend works and wireless will reconnect...ntm, it's really fast, esp. w/ Chrome as the default browser. Happy so far...and the bare bones aspect of it is kinda nice as well. IMO, Crunchbang 10 is a winner and is more stable than many final releases.
163 • 161 (by Barnabyh at 2010-03-29 09:44:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
Tried it out but the trouble with all the ones I've tested so far that are proclaiming they have Clam onboard is there's no Gui, only Cli. I'm not averse to that but it's nice to have the option in this day and age.
So I believe Dr.Web is still best placed for ease of use. Until I find something similar with ClamGTK/QT.
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