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1 • Another Great Week (by Roberta Sufi on 2009-07-27 12:11:29 GMT from United States) |
Ah, another week another great DWW! Wolvix looks great too!
2 • Another great DWW (by Jesse on 2009-07-27 12:19:19 GMT from United States)
As usual, another great read on Monday morning.
You know, it seems that every week there is a stream of negative comments here directed at the featured article(s). And, nearly every week, there is a collection of replies suggesting that critics write their own articles if they think they can do better.
For myself, I do NOT think I can write any better than Mr Smart or Ms Martin; they both do first class work. Micheal did too this week. That being said, I like to think I can write fairly well. Sadly, for me, DWW has a full staff and don't really need extra submissions most of the time.
So I'd like to share the following with you, the fans of open source operating systems. I have, on the menu, the following selections:
Taking the latest version of OpenSolaris for a spin.
A short review of FreeDOS, a project which turned 15 last month.
And a quick review of ReactOS, a project which tries to
make an open source, binary compatible NT operating system.
I'm not trying to replace the meal here, just offering some open source
dessert. This is a bit off topic, so feel free to e-mail me your feedback, rather than clutter up the comments section of DWW. Thank you.
3 • Wolvix & Ubuntu (by Tom on 2009-07-27 12:19:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ok, last week we had lots of people saying they didn't like it that Ubuntu and Wolvix get mentioned so much. In fact Wolvix was only ever mentioned by those people complaining that they heard it being mentioned too much!
Given that people who do try it say that "it's good" and that "it works" (and even some rare but more in-depth analysis concluding the same) & that it jumped up the charts really fast and has remained there ever since i really think that it is worth mentioning because there is obviously a lot going for it. The same goes for Wolvix too, surely?
4 • Mike's article (by Snowman on 2009-07-27 12:20:14 GMT from United States)
Looking forward to the next instalment. Good article.
5 • Michael Raugh's distro odyssey... (by jovcek on 2009-07-27 12:33:40 GMT from Macedonia)
Maybe late, but my advice on your next distro is Sabayon (currently 4.2 but 5.0 version comes two weeks). Reading your requirements for a distro, I think it will be perfect for you.
6 • No subject (by Not Bob on 2009-07-27 13:01:59 GMT from United States)
>reasonably experienced Linux user<
>The command line is my friend<
>never tried to configure X by hand or compile my own kernel.<
Then the icing on the cake
>supporting and managing Linux servers for about six years<
That is just scary!!!!
Managing a server for six years? Come on man!!! Six Years!!!??? Never compiled a kernel. Jeeze, I hope these are not forward facing servers.
Seriously though, it was a nice article, but it is prefaced with the illusion that the writer is a seasoned veteran with knowledge and experience. It ends up being a normal everyday Linux user.
A NICE ARTICLE none the less.
I'd take that paragraph out. It ruins the story, and means the next installments, will read-
I tried Arch, the installation was text based, and I had to configure everything by hand!
I tried Debian, but I couldn't figure out how to install codecs.
I wanted to try Slackware 64bit, but couldn't figure out how to use Rsync, so I ftp'd it. Then I got lost attempting to use mkisofs.
Then I found Mint. This is the best!!!!+++++++1111
7 • @ Michael Raugh (by Toms on 2009-07-27 13:16:00 GMT from Taiwan)
"I wiped the drives, which had come with XP pre-installed"
I hope you'll make an effort to get a refund on the unused-but-paid-for Windows license...
8 • Good article (by Mahmoud Slamah on 2009-07-27 13:16:21 GMT from Egypt)
9 • Gentoo (by Daniel Mery on 2009-07-27 13:20:29 GMT from Italy)
Happy Birthday !!!! GENTOO
10 • nice (by mr-youse on 2009-07-27 13:23:43 GMT from United States)
Nice article Mike, looking forward to reading about your further adventures. Also, Jesse's links (comment 2) also provided some nice reading. Keep up the great work everyone!
11 • Buddhabuntu (by Notorik on 2009-07-27 13:31:51 GMT from United States)
Nice "work-through" review on Jaunty. I had a similar experience with the 64 bit edition but I gave up on it. It was super fast but I couldn't figure out how to install Adobe Flash. It seems there is a beta version available for 64 bit but it didn't work for me. I tried the "make install" thing but I probably screwed it up.
I am surprised there has been no mention of the new Buddhist Ubuntu remix, Buddhabuntu. It is moving forward with the goal of becoming it's own distro not just a remix. Read about it here:
The site is a bit confusing and I am not exactly sure which link takes you to the actual download of the current version so if someone figures it out please post it.
AntiX looks beautiful as always. Congrats to Anticapitalista on another great release.
12 • beware (by shamaz on 2009-07-27 13:42:32 GMT from United States)
legal anime fansub ? are you joking ?
Fansub is not legal, it is *tolerated* by japanese producers.
13 • CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE in Jaunty (by nejode on 2009-07-27 13:44:35 GMT from Venezuela)
You don't have to reboot to restart the Xserver in Ubunty Jaunty... the new key combination is:
...or install dontzap and enable it!
14 • Ok, ish. (by anon on 2009-07-27 13:45:09 GMT from United States)
I'm not too fond of listening to an Ubuntu installation with 8 GiB of swap, because frankly, if you've done it once, there are hardly a few things that will surprise you.
I hope part 2 will have a better distro. Maybe something along the lines of Debian (stable or unstable) since we're talking about Ubuntu.
15 • Give BSD a spin... (by Gustavo on 2009-07-27 13:47:28 GMT from Uruguay)
During your distro hops... you might give BSD a try, be it PC-BSD or plain good old FreeBSD.
You will be pleasantly surprised ;)
Running FreeBSD7.2-Stable, Xmonad as WM... blazing fast!
16 • @ 2 (by crawancon on 2009-07-27 13:48:46 GMT from United States)
Good DWW - Thank you Mr. Smart and Mr. Bodnar.
thanks for the open source dessert, Jesse!
as for the DWW article from Michael, good read. most of us are still on our Distro Odyssey. Its good to hear that certain things actually work now. (unity mode with VMs)
I am rather distro agnostic anymore, but still believe in the innovation of OpenSource.
have a good week!
17 • Mikes article (by Phil at 2009-07-27 13:50:05 GMT from Germany)
Mike, if you like you can test Chakra. Its a livecd based on arch linux. We are using our own KDE 4.3 Mod using splitpackages.
You can install every kde app seperatly. Checkout our forum to get a prerelease of our next release.
18 • lead article (by Barnabyh on 2009-07-27 13:50:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
Try out the upcoming Slackware 13 RC, there is a link to unofficial iso's at a Norwegian ftp on the last release announcement here a while back. Brilliant. Slackware's never been so good since Gnome was dropped.
Nice KDE 4.2.4, no more artsd dying(still unresolved in 12.2), no more green xine windows (buffer overflow) which shouldn't happen in a so called stable distro anyway.
Default choice of apps has slightly expanded and it's playing mp3s out of the box for a while now.
Seriously, try it.
19 • URL (by Phil at 2009-07-27 13:50:55 GMT from Germany)
Seems it dont postet the URL. Here it is: www.chakra-project.org
20 • @7, DWW article and stuff.. (by davemc on 2009-07-27 13:55:02 GMT from United States)
Hi. #7 above there, I think the writer said that they still need to use Windows for some RPG stuff, so he/she will probably want to hold on to that copy and licence for VMWare usage.
The article was well done. I would like to suggest you give Arch Linux a shot, and that is really what you should have gone with for your base install -- that is, Arch or Gentoo -- preferably Arch because its much easier and faster to install and use and it is optimized for X86 and X86_64. With Arch, you install the precise system that fits your hardware and usage needs, and nothing more than that. Makes one SNAPPY system with all the latest cutting edge stuff thats still very stable in a rolling release model. I found Arch by doing almost exactly what you are doing and in the same way you are doing it, so that's interesting. What I found by doing that is that there is no real MAJOR difference between Linux Distrobution final products. Linux is Linux and ALL of them are good and great in their own ways, and I love them all. What sets one apart from another is 1) optimizations, 2) customizations including init scripts, 3) package management, 4) community and support/documentation. Anything else is superficial and not important, IMO.
Anyway, have fun and happy distro hunting!
21 • ARG (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-27 14:07:22 GMT from United States)
OM G THE AUTHOR USED UBUNTU WTF UYBUNTU IS KILLING THE LINUX DESKTOP OMGOMGOMG YOU SHOULD USE MY DISTRO INSTEAD ITS SO MUCH BETTER
Outrage posted, Ubuntu haters. I've done you a favor!
It was a pretty good article. I look forward to what is to come; I understand this was just the introduction to the author and his new build. The goods will surely come.
@3: Remember that when something is popular, the self-proclaimed "hardcore" shun it automatically. When something goes wrong on their lone machine (as it may, of course - no one is claiming Ubuntu is perfect) it's just a matter of finding a blog that mentions Ubuntu in the slightest and posting that "Unbuntu is vastly overrated IMO it doesn't work on any computer"
Wolvix may be running into the same issue, because at least around here, there are two or three people that praise it consistently. Popularity means an automatic shunning, etc.
Wolvix is not a bad distro by any means, but it follows the shift in Linux distros that Ubuntu started, which pushes a unified "desktop." Think of the average Debian desktop or Arch Linux desktop. There isn't one! But the average Ubuntu desktop is very easy to picture in your mind. It's almost iconic! I consider this a good thing, but others may not.
@6: Well, the Xorg thing is a little surprising, but the Kernel compiling, not so much. Regardless, I have few doubts about the author's abilities. I'm not one to take stock in a single sentence, and i think you're overreacting a bit.
@Anti: AntiX 8.2 is a great release. Solid, stable, and filled with goodies. Kudos! I like the new name, as well.
22 • Linux users who pay for windblows (by Xtyn on 2009-07-27 14:13:01 GMT from Romania)
Fortunately the new PC came with a legal license for Windows Vista Business with downgrade rights for XP.
How can you pay for that garbage? I really can't understand GNU/Linux users who pay for windows.
That money would have been better spent improving Linux.
23 • Fedora Respin Omega 11 (by Justin Case on 2009-07-27 14:15:20 GMT from United States)
I just tried the Fedora respin Omega 11. No youtube flash playback because flash is not installed so no go there. Tried to play some movies trailers at the apple site and while the trailers would play not a beep of sound came forth from my speakers. I tried to install it and the installer threw an error about vop and exited. Looks like an interesting project but needs more Q/A.
24 • Michael´s distro quest (by Warper on 2009-07-27 14:17:49 GMT from United States)
Interesting edition of DWW. I would really like to read your experiences when you try Arch, this is my distro of choice since a year or two: bleeding edge, acceptably stable, very active community, large repository (AUR) and everything you need at the tip of your ´pacman´.
If you feel comfortable with some CL editing you will have no problem with Arch.
But anyway it depends on you. Hope you have the chance (time) to try some half a dozen distros at least. It is always interesting to read someone else´s experience until the pressure is strong enough to try it by myself.
Good reading for a monday morning.
25 • Distro Odyssey Recommendation (by Dave on 2009-07-27 14:19:13 GMT from Canada)
I think you should give sidux a try. I've been very pleased with it, you get the debian experience with much more up-to-date package versions (i'm curious to see how it would rate on the OSWatershed site). The provided handbook is excellent, as is the IRC support community. You get to get a bit more under the covers (commandline apt-upgrades), but it's never been in an uncomfortable way for me (I'd place my linux experience level as similar to yours as described, with less server experience for me). KDE and XFCE are the better supported desktops for sidux (used by the most users, as I understand it).
Happy travels, look forward to future installments.
26 • Main article (by Miq on 2009-07-27 14:19:39 GMT from Sweden)
Michael Raugh, thanks for an unusually interesting DW read! What I particularly appreciate is the human touch and real-word spin you give by providing your personal (and diverse) requirements of your production system. This will make your coming series of comparisons that much more relevant and interesting!
While I usually dislike the overemphasis of Ubuntu here, in this circumstance I think you have chosen a good approach: to start with Ubuntu as the vanilla option and thereafter look at alternatives.
I am also glad you have come back to KDE4 after your stint with the 4.0 version. 4.2.4 is a wonderful user experience, and 4.3 is around the corner and promises great things!
If I may suggest, and wish, a few distros I'd really enjoy you trying out the big ones (Fedora, Mandriva and OpenSuSe, perhaps MEPIS), along with the nice options (Sabayon, Mint, Pardus). I'd also recommend you to try Lapis Linux and Momonga. Of course, there are many more, so go wild! :)
Thanks again, and I hope we will se many more user articles!
27 • distro (by alex on 2009-07-27 14:26:18 GMT from Bahamas)
Great article, thanks!
I agree with davemc. I find that pre-customized distros just waste my hardware. There are all these package and services that are present for no particular reason doing something strange in the background that I mostly likely do not need. With arch or gentoo my software comfortably complements my hardware.
Also, KDE 4.3 has come even further than 4.2. As much as 4.2 is a great improvement, 4.3 is even more as I found the risk of staying with beta and RCs to be worth the experience. It suppose to be getting tagged tomorrow and released next week so you should do an upgrade when (k)ubuntu repository picks it up.
28 • trying distros (by ataraxia on 2009-07-27 14:28:29 GMT from United States)
For experienced users, and ordinary desktop / workstation use, there's basically no reason to go anywhere but Arch Linux. Nothing else comes close to the combination of power, flexibility, and convenience that Arch gives. It puts a stop to distro-hopping for a huge proportion of those who try it.
29 • #28 (by Xtyn on 2009-07-27 14:36:58 GMT from Romania)
Yeah? Well I've tried Arch and haven't found a reason to stick to it.
Can anyone tell me what was the need to have Arch when we had something exactly the same in Debian unstable netinstall?
30 • @Toms (#7) and Xtyn (#22) (by Anonymous on 2009-07-27 14:37:38 GMT from United States)
The author mentioned that he needs to run Windows under VMWare
I'm still dependent on a couple of old Windows applications that support my RPG gamemaster duties (did I mention that I'm kind of geeky?) and at least one of them won't run under WINE.
So, the Windows license is useful.
Also, @Toms. I think that Mr. Raugh is from the United States, and I don't think the U.S. gives rebates for not using Windows. I could be wrong.
31 • #11 - Does Linux Have the Buddha Nature. Mu. (by Miq on 2009-07-27 14:38:13 GMT from Sweden)
"I am surprised there has been no mention of the new Buddhist Ubuntu remix, Buddhabuntu. It is moving forward with the goal of becoming it's own distro not just a remix. Read about it here:
The site is a bit confusing and I am not exactly sure which link takes you to the actual download of the current version so if someone figures it out please post it."
Actually, it was mentioned in the last DW comments, only quite late so there were only very few replies (especially since the comments are closed during weekends).
However, I must say the Buddhist Edition made me very happy, and I'm looking forward to seeing it being added to the distro database along the other religious *bunto remixes!
32 • #21 & Mr. Raugh's Review (by Elder V. LaCoste on 2009-07-27 14:43:53 GMT from United States)
The number of times Wolvix has been mentioned is miniscule in comparison with the top ten. I don't understand why some people get so worked up over it. I do agree with you that, "when something is popular, the self-proclaimed "hardcore" shun it automatically".
Thanks for the Ubuntu Jaunty review Mr. Raugh, nicely done. I agree with another "poster" that it does get really annoying when DWW turns into Ubuntu Watch but your review was a breath of fresh air. As for Ubuntu Jaunty, It is really nice to see KDE 4 gaining popularity. I find that the Gnome window manager is very nice too if you "trick it out" with some nice themes like Exotic, or Tropical. Here is a link to some themes:
33 • 22 Why Windows (by RayRay on 2009-07-27 14:52:49 GMT from United States)
Many of us prefer Linux but the industry we work in have programs that will only work on Windows (WINE won't work ) so we keep Windows on a virtual machine.
If the reason you use Linux is to not pay for Windows that is your business, but if you want people to do what you want then you don't understand freedom. It's like people that love democracy as long as they win, but OMG if some one with different ideas wins an election. So please don't act like a dictator.
As usual another interesting article from DW.
34 • @22 and 33 (by Anonymous on 2009-07-27 15:04:28 GMT from United States)
You don't have to pay for that garbage :(
It is included in the cost of mostly any machine that you buy (except those that come with no OS). It is called the Micro$oft Tax. It (Windows) works and is the defacto OS on most of the machines on the planet. We like like linux, but there are still some programs that need windows to run them best. Yes wine is getting closer but not there yet :(
35 • #33 (by Xtyn on 2009-07-27 15:05:19 GMT from Romania)
I'm not using GNU/Linux because I don't want to pay for windblows. In this country piracy is not such a big deal. I could use a hacked windows without any worries.
The fact of the matter is I don't use windows and I haven't used it for years.
I'm just saying that if you people want GNU/Linux to have a chance, stop buying windows and start supporting Linux anyway you can.
36 • Michael Raugh's Search (by rel at 2009-07-27 15:50:04 GMT from United States)
Thanks for a great article. This is a search we're all on, so everyone has something to say about it. Including myself:
I was always a KDE fan, until 4.0... then I just gave in and have been using ubuntu/gnome ever since. It "works" but it's just boring.
Well, I recently fired up sidux 2009.2 with KDE 4.2.4 and I'm happy to say I think there's light at the end of the tunnel. The KDE devs have been working overtime to correct the 4.0 disaster and you have to hand it to them... the functionality and ability to configure every little thing is coming back. I like the switch to dolphin, it kind of reminds me of OSX finder. Simple and functional. All in all, KDE is fun again.
That said, I think there are 2 (KDE-centric) distros you should put to the top of the list.
1. First, you should install sidux (KDE version) and give it a spin. It's fast and tuned very well.
2. Next, try Arch + KDEmod... (or you could install Chakra which is basically Arch + KDEmod) but Chakra is not really production-ready so I recommend installing the Arch base, then adding the KDE4mod.
There are many reasons I could list for trying these 2 distros out, but I'd rather read all about it in your article next week.
Great article and nice writing style. I'm excited to read the next installments.
Thanks for making Monday morning something to look forward to.
37 • UbunTu wine (by Merlin on 2009-07-27 15:58:07 GMT from Canada)
Open source liquor...
Top that Wolvix.
38 • Awesome DWW Week! (by Eyes-Only on 2009-07-27 16:01:09 GMT from United States)
I really loved your article Michael and am awaiting the next installment with baited breath! What a great read mate! You're not just good with Linux but talented with the "digital pen & ink" as well, so keep up the great work and after this series is finished I hope to see many more of your articles featured here.
This should be a very good example to people: When Caitlyn, Chris, or Ladislav say to you, "Go ahead and submit your article! We're really looking forward to hearing from you!" it's NOT always being said in a sarcastic manner - in fact - I've never taken it for anything other than face value! I think you'll find you ARE seriously being invited to do just as Michael has done above. Many of you do have hidden talents and the qualifications to write about your life experiences with Linux and indeed should do so. :)
@Jesse above: Thanks mate for the .pdf files! I've downloaded them but haven't had the chance to read them yet. I hope to have the time later this afternoon. I'm really looking forward to them - so thank you once again!
And a really huge "Thank You!" to everyone involved in bringing yet another high-quality DWW to my Monday morning. It just wouldn't be Monday without it!
Keep up the fabulous work one and all!
39 • Wow (by Archetype on 2009-07-27 16:12:16 GMT from United States)
Someone's computer died, they got a new one...and installed Ubuntu.
40 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-07-27 16:17:33 GMT from United States)
@28: I tried Arch. I gave up halfway between getting X to work and struggling with my Wi-Fi.
I have better things to do than fight with my OS.
@39: Dude. It's just Part 1. Settle down.
41 • Arch @28 (by Sean on 2009-07-27 16:43:28 GMT from United States)
"...there's basically no reason to go anywhere but Arch Linux."
Well then. No more need for distrowatch.
42 • Ubuntu makes many believers? Distros and God (by InBobWeTrust on 2009-07-27 16:57:29 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu Christian Edition
Ubuntu Muslim Edition
Ubuntu Buddhist Edition or Buddah
see post # 31
Ubuntu also makes wine :), how can Wolvix top that?
There are distros that cut out God/blog about God. Just check Tomas' Blog at Slax. He has written some nice stuff about God, Noah's bullshit, If God did not exist, Why do we believe, Isaac and Abraham, ... , etc.
The Ubuntu Religious guys should get together with Tomas from Slax. Slax should have several versions:
Slax believers Edition
Slax NonBelievers Edition
This is badly needed to make money. I see Ubuntu here mentioned many times, I think Slax is as great or greater than Ubuntu and they also have religious folks that use it, despite that Tomas has come forward and does not believe that God Exists?
Why do we have thosands of linux distros?
Why does Wolvix get mentioned too many times and it is not even in the top 10?
Why do people believe and not believe in God?
Concerned Linux User
43 • Arch Linux (by davemc on 2009-07-27 17:12:11 GMT from United States)
I see a couple negative comments about Arch, and that is expected. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware, and other Distro's who do not have install GUI's are NOT "newbie friendly" or for those who lack the patience required to get through the install, which is not as trivial as it is with the Buntu's, Fedora, Suse, and a few others using Anaconda or other installer GUI's. There is a reason for this better explained on the projects own websites, but I like to think of it as the "Linux trial by fire", in a way. It is the method used by those who treaded the hostile Linux waters before us relative newcomers, and most of them would tell you that there simply is no substitute. While I cant tell you the soundness of this logic, I CAN testify that I truly never took the time to learn Linux and its underpinnings until I did.
I remember the first time I installed Arch, following the "Beginners Guide", it took me about 45 minutes to set everything up, study the init system and get that setup correctly, and then install GNOME. My first boot took 23 seconds, and since Arch does not provide a pretty loading screen I watched all the text flying by as I would for a Debian install, but this time, I understood what that text meant and what the boot sequences were doing because I set them up that way, because thats how I wanted them to load, and in that order. When GNOME loaded in I started up some apps, and they loaded nearly instantly, and I could not help but say, "Woah!". I have been using various Linux Distros going on 3 years now and been Windows free that time, but this was far different than any other I had tried because of the reasons above, and because my system was so darn snappy and responsive!
So, what do I have now? Well, I have a 2.6.30-arch kernel, GNOME 2.26, the latest X.org, the latest GCC, the latest Nvidia binary, the latest GIMP, the latest Firefox (3.5.1), etc. all on rolling release -- et al. when they get it, you do, no waiting for the next release. No crashes to date, no lockups, no freezeups (Ubuntu anyone?..), and all the software that is on my system, I know about because I put it there and set it up from the kernel to the window manager to all in between. This is the Arch way, they say, but really, this is the true Linux way, IMO, or at least I feel that way now, thanks to the great guys at Arch for showing me that. I hope this helps.
44 • #42 (by Elder V. LaCoste on 2009-07-27 17:33:42 GMT from United States)
I don't understand what your point is. I do not mean to be sarcastic or anything, I am just asking for clarification.
Wolvix does not get mentioned "too many times". It's not in the top ten because it is not as well known or as popular as the distros in the top ten. That is no reflection on the quality though. I tried it and it worked perfectly for me on my machine. I can't say that for any of the other top ten distros other than Ubuntu, Puppy, and Mepis (Mepis is not currently in the top ten). I do find it odd that a distro like Puppy (under 100 megabytes) can compete successfully with full blown, bloated distros.
45 • msquish tax (by Tom on 2009-07-27 17:34:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
Isn't there some special day like Feb17th or something when we're all meant to try to claim any refunds due? Also i thought that if you bought a Windows licence for your machine that you could install a multi-boot with 2 installs of the same version of Windows or have Windows installed in a virtual machine inside an install of itself or even inside a non-Windows OS? Quite why someone would want to is a different issue.
46 • #43 Arch again... (by Xtyn on 2009-07-27 18:01:37 GMT from Romania)
This is the Arch way, they say, but really, this is the true Linux way, IMO
Well, Linus Torvalds (who uses Fedora) and Richard Stallman (who uses Debian) would probably disagree but hey, maybe you're right...or maybe the Slackware way is the Linux way...or, better yet, maybe compiling everything from source is the TRUE Linux way.
Why make it easy with pacman and binaries?
P.S. You can install any modern distro "the Arch way", meaning netinstall, expert mode.
47 • @ us all (by Jerry B. on 2009-07-27 18:25:34 GMT from United States)
Linus Torvalds uses Fedora?! I'm crestfallen. I'd think that he, of all linux users would use only (fill in the blank), not Fedora.
48 • #46 and things.. (by davemc on 2009-07-27 18:28:15 GMT from United States)
Well, that may or may not be true. Since neither you nor I are Linus Torvalds or RMS, I guess its all conjecture, isn't it? In any case, I would never dare to try to put words into anyone's mouth.
As for the netinstall on other Distro's, well, that's just not true now is it?.. Selecting a few programs from a menu and telling the thing to install them for you is not what I am talking about, and thats not what one would do when installing Slackware, Gentoo, Arch, LFS, and others. There is a level of detail there that is usually taken care of for you in other more user friendly distro's, including the netinstall.
49 • VirtualBox (by Glenn Condrey on 2009-07-27 18:28:53 GMT from United States)
Michael,..I liked part one of your article...I was just going to ask....did you consider using VirtualBox from Sun as your virtual manager?
It has an impressive new feature that VMWare does not have....the ability to let you use 128 megs of video memory AND 3d computing is supported.
This is handy, because there are still a lot of games and other applications that linux users like to play that support 128 megs of video memory. VMWare doesn't.
For me, running VirtualBox is more important to me than Wine, Cedega, or Crossover Office.
50 • #48 (by RC on 2009-07-27 18:38:05 GMT from United States)
I think the point #46 was trying to make was that doing things the hard way doesn't have to be "the true Linux way"....like it is some elite club. For Linux to blossom into its potential it has to be easier and more intuitive than Windows. It has to do more and cost less while creating an environment that people love to use.
There will always be Arch and Gentoo and their brethren for hard core hackers and the individual that loves to learn the intricate details....but they will never be the majority distros. They will be a fun and interesting niche just like the people that use them.
51 • @46 and other Arch comments (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-27 19:00:59 GMT from United States)
And while the "nothing is configured for you" is a valid option, that doesn't make it superior.
For my needs, it's simply not an option. I use a computer to get work done, not to configure it "my way" and fight with the OS to get everything working. Maybe I'm not picky enough about what gets installed, but when I install an OS, I expect it to install and then get out of my way.
Debian is a good middle ground between Arch difficulty and Ubuntu simplicity. You still have a bit of flexibility, but when you tell the OS to install a package, it's largely done for you. This is what I value in an Operating System.
I'm not saying Arch is bad. It fits the needs of some users. I'm just saying Arch isn't for me. I'm not stupid, or newbie, or less of a Linux user than you. I'm just not interested in what it has to offer.
52 • @ 30 [OT] (by Anonymous on 2009-07-27 19:06:58 GMT from United States)
In the United States people looking to get a "Windows rebate" generally have to end up in small claims court due to "vendor run around" but as the article implied, he intends to use his XP license in VMWare, and more power to him.
Also, why do you need to re-compile a kernel? If the distribution you are using has done their job properly and you are using supported hardware, you should _never_need_ to compile a kernel. That is time that is better spent avoiding actual work ;-)
53 • #48: Sources, disagree with you about Arch and on distros in general (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-27 19:35:53 GMT from United States)
#48: Actually both Linus Torvalds and RMS have made clear which distros they use in interviews, so #46 is being factual and accurate when he states they use Fedora and Debian, respectively. I also disagree with the idea that Arch is the be-all and end-all of Linux. I, personally, don't for it care much. I'm not saying it's a poor distro in any way, just not my proverbial cup of tea. One of the nice things about Linux is that we have lots of choices.
I also agree with those who say that the elitism around advanced or supposedly difficult distros is annoying and definitely not helpful to the community. I've been a UNIX/Linux admin since 1995 (and a developer, network engineer, and consultant before that) and I, much like Linus Torvalds, like a distro that gets out of my way and doesn't require lots of extra work that serves no particular purpose. See: http://news.oreilly.com/2008/07/linux-torvalds-on-linux-distri.html
Original interview at: http://www.simple-talk.com/opinion/geek-of-the-week/linus-torvalds,-geek-of-the-week/
I can go into a long explanation of why Arch would never be considered acceptable by most business users and why Red Hat and SUSE dominate enterprise space as well if you like.
54 • @ 11 Ubuntu 64 bit + Flash (by Untitled on 2009-07-27 19:36:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
If you decide to give 64 bit another go, all you need to do is install the ubuntu-restricted-extras (or kubuntu-restricted-extras for KDE) and it will install Flash for you. It's really that easy.
55 • #50 and.. (by davemc on 2009-07-27 19:47:58 GMT from United States)
Well, apparently you took my comments to mean that I was "talking down", or "elite", and that is not what my intent was at all. In fact, I find nothing "elite" about Arch in any way, as it is so easy and simple to do that anyone could do it. It is certainly NO "elite" type Distro, nor is anyone that uses it that I have encountered. Still, the discussion is not specifically about Arch.
The discussion should not be about this way or that being better. There is, however, a set of perceptions out there I have been witness to, that seperate Linux from Windows, and many people believe (rightly or wrongly) that doing things the "Windows way" - eg. everything spoon fed to you such that you learn nothing about your hardware or OS is not the "Linux way", because if you don't understand a thing, you have no control over it. I understand this arguement, and agree with it to an extent (and I think that is what is cropping up in the discussion here -- correct me if I am wrong) but that is NOT what my comments were meant to imply. I simply meant that trying Linux out in a different, perhaps more difficult way like Slackware, Gentoo, or Arch, is a great way to learn Linux at a level not likely to happen in other distro types. If learning Linux to that fine grain level is not your thing at present, then more power to ya! We use Linux for what we use Linux for, so use what suits your needs the best.
56 • #55 (by RC on 2009-07-27 19:51:08 GMT from United States)
My apologies DaveMC....I agree 100% with your point of view and I did totally misinterpret your previous comments.
57 • KDE 4 (by Untitled on 2009-07-27 19:58:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have been using KDE 4 since the beginning and initially I bitched and moaned as well, but I really liked a few things and and could see how great it can be, so I didn't remove it but rather installed the development package from the Kubuntu PPA and started filing bug reports instead. This has actually became a pleasure -- the KDE developers are very responsive and even grateful when you file a bug report or even new requests.
I'm now running KDE4.3 RC3 and even though it still has some bugs and I have had to to endure some regressions along the way, it was really worth it. Seeing how it progresses and being part of it is a really rewarding experience for me, especially when I do something and I realise that a bug I reported has been fixed.
It's something I'd recommend to anyone -- it doesn't only make you feel good about contributing back, it also mean that you can influence where things will be heading and get a few things the way you want them.
58 • No subject (by jrob on 2009-07-27 20:09:14 GMT from United States)
I am also distro hopping, and I am really looking forward to using Arch.
Slackware was "alright" for me. I really like sidux and Sabayon, though.
Ubuntu is easy, and always works as a vanilla install-- I keep it on my stable desktop until I find a distro I can't live without. Even though in the end it's all linux and the end products are all very similar.
59 • @Caitlynn Martin (by davemc on 2009-07-27 20:18:09 GMT from United States)
Your comment #53 is really out the blue now isn't it? I don't believe you read more than a sentence of any of the posts I made, and flaming someone without reading the whole thing is not really being fair now is it?
I will not treat you with the same level of disrespect though Caitlynn. Instead I will look at what you said and evaluate it..
"Actually both Linus Torvalds and RMS have made clear which distros they use in interviews, so #46 is being factual and accurate when he states they use Fedora and Debian, respectively. I also disagree with the idea that Arch is the be-all and end-all of Linux. I, personally, don't for it care much. I'm not saying it's a poor distro in any way, just not my proverbial cup of tea. One of the nice things about Linux is that we have lots of choices."
Linus has stated, more than once, that he likes to use a Distro that does not get in his way and allows him to get his work done. That could be Debian, it could be SUSE, it could be PCLinuxOS, it could be MEPIS, it also could be Fedora for right now at this moment in time or even Arch Linux or PuppyLinux -- So what? How does any of that matter? It is off topic and has nothing to do with my posts.
"I also agree with those who say that the elitism around advanced or supposedly difficult distros is annoying and definitely not helpful to the community"
We agree there Caitlyn. I believe my posts support that view. I am sorry you misinterpreted them, or that perhaps I wrote them in a way easy to misinterpret.
"I can go into a long explanation of why Arch would never be considered acceptable by most business users and why Red Hat and SUSE dominate enterprise space as well if you like. "
Ok, whose being elite now? Or are we just being smug with a comment such as this? I also note the unfair, and unwarranted insult to Arch Linux that totally lacks any merit. I am NO IT professional, so I wont argue with you there, but I do find it suspicious that you are quick to insult one particular distro when nobody else had really been stirring the pot before you.
60 • #59 (by RC on 2009-07-27 20:29:04 GMT from United States)
Wow...we seem to have come away with a very different view of her comments. I thought they were very measured and professional. She pointed out some things that disagreed with your premises, but did so in a very casual manner. You seem to see attack in them. I must have missed something.
61 • chill (by Tom on 2009-07-27 20:32:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
Blimey, easy tigers ;) Corporate use, server use, hackers development or training tool and general normal desktop are all catered to, that's not even a fully inclusive list. Some may see one or other use as elitist but it's amazing that we can use gnu&linux in so many different ways, almost tailored to our needs. "Even though in the end it's all linux and the end products are all very similar." almost sounds contemptuous (i doubt it was meant that way) but it's what so many outsiders say is needed before linux can stand a chance against microsquish.
62 • elite, amongst whom??? (by divadgnol on 2009-07-27 20:45:55 GMT from United States)
Who in the world thinks they are amongst the "Elite" because they have succesfully installed Gentoo,Slackware,Crux or even Arch. I have installed everyone of the formentioned distro's with complete success. Could i have done so without the ability to RTFM, doubtful.!!! Don't brag because you know how to read a manual and then put into actions what you have read. Now maybe if i was a developer that wrote code like is was my native language i may feel a bit above the rest of you. But this is not the case for most of us. So don't come off like any one of you are better than any one else. We all are part of some fringe group that likes to think of our selves as "geeky" " more savy" because we know how to edit a .config file. Oh Boy I'm so smart because once again i read some man page. Grow up and get a clue.
63 • #60 & 61 (by davemc on 2009-07-27 20:46:41 GMT from United States)
You might be right. Her comments seem to be very much an attack, to me, but hey, I made a post that some misinterpreted, so I guess its only fair to say that perhaps I misinterpreted her. If that is the case, then I do apologize. I really do not like to see people malign any Distro, Arch included, and it appears to me that her last sentence is doing precisely that.
64 • same rant after using spell check (by divadgnol on 2009-07-27 20:48:23 GMT from United States)
Who in the world thinks they are amongst the "Elite" because they have successfully installed Gentoo, Slackware, Crux or even Arch. I have installed everyone of the aforementioned distro's with complete success. Could I have done so without the ability to RTFM, doubtful? Don't brag because you know how to read a manual and then put into actions what you have read. Now maybe if I was a developer that wrote code like is was my native language I may feel a bit above the rest of you. But this is not the case for most of us. So don't come off like any one of you are better than any one else. We all are part of some fringe group that likes to think of our selves as "geeky" “more savvy" because we know how to edit a .config file. Oh Boy I'm so smart because once again I read some man page. Grow up and get a clue.
65 • Arch for non-Linux gurus (by Nittany on 2009-07-27 20:50:36 GMT from United States)
I've been following the Arch discussion and I don't fit the "Arch is only for experts" category; I'm an Arch user but by no means a Linux expert. What attracted me to the distro was the relative speed I got on some old equipment compared to the user-friendly distros such as Xubuntu. My old Twinhead P88TE laptop that I'd inherited originally ran Windows 98 but it was very slow. Damn Small Linux was very fast but I didn't like the limitations that a minimal distro imposed. Ubuntu and Xubuntu were definitely faster than Windows 98 was but there was still a noticeable lag. Then I discovered Arch and I've become a fan. While the old Twinhead was never going to set any speed records, Arch allowed it to surf the net, do word processing and spreadsheets, and play mp3s. Yes, it was frustrating to have to depend so much on the Arch Wiki but all the answers I needed were right there. And I appreciated not having to waste so much time downloading and installing so much software as I did while upgrading Xubuntu.
I've since installed Arch on a newer laptop and my everyday desktop and I'm planning on running MythTv on top of an Arch DVR. I hope my experience may convince other relative Linux novices to give Arch a try, especially on those old P-II and P-III CPUs.
66 • @61 (by jrob on 2009-07-27 20:51:44 GMT from United States)
"almost sounds contemptuous (i doubt it was meant that way) but it's what so many outsiders say is needed before linux can stand a chance against microsquish."
if you were referring to my statement, I was not being contemptuous (nor do I see how it could be taken as such).
I like the diversity,but everything is still very similar.
a lot of people here are making drama for no reason (but this is my first time reading the comments here)
67 • #64 (by davemc on 2009-07-27 20:59:58 GMT from United States)
Would you like a cup of tea with your insults?..
I can honestly say now that I am at a complete and absolute loss as to how any of my comments could have been misinterpreted in this way to make it sound like Arch is "elite", or that anyone who uses Arch is "elite". I am done repeating myself.
68 • #64 (by divadgnol on 2009-07-27 21:02:56 GMT from United States)
my comments were directed at you at all. i should have prefaced my comments with whom was the intended audience.
69 • #59, seeing attacks, insults, and disrespect where there is none. (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-27 21:23:18 GMT from United States)
I read every last word of your posts. I responded to them directly. There was nothing disrespectful towards you and certainly no attack on you. You also read material later in the post as directed to you specifically where the comment referred to the community in general. So, no, #53 is not "out of the blue". If you feel attacked perhaps some self-examination is in order by you so that you can determine why.
Let's dissect my post, shall we?
In #48 you wrote: Well, that may or may not be true. Since neither you nor I are Linus Torvalds or RMS, I guess its all conjecture, isn't it?
I pointed out that it isn't conjecture and even provided a link to the relevant interview given by Linus Torvalds. He uses Fedora. He has for years and pre-Fedora Red Hat before that. I can point to older interviews if you'd like me to back that up.
How is my stating that Arch is "not my proverbial cup of tea" an insult to arch? How is my stating that it isn't suitable to business/enterpise use an insult? The first is personal opinion and the second is fact, not elitism. Is Arch backed by a large corporation? Do they offer support contracts? 24x7 telephone support? Consultancy services and training? Since the answer is "no" that rules them out for somewhere in excess of 95% of IT management I've dealt with in my long career. Actually it's probably close to 100%. Stating the facts is not an "unwarranted insult". If I said "Arch is crap" (which I most certainly did NOT do) then you would have a point. I wasn't insulting a distro. I was responding to your somewhat over the top line:
This is the Arch way, they say, but really, this is the true Linux way, IMO, or at least I feel that way now,
In other words, I didn't pick on Arch. You raised the distro as an example of "the true Linux way" which, IMHO, really is a way of saying the Arch was is best and everything else is somehow inferior.
Arch defines itself as a distro for advanced users. It's on their website. I accept their definition. Your statement, that the Arch way is the "true Linux way" is elitism in spades. It's not unique to Arch and is something I see from a relatively small but loud and somewhat obnoxious percentage of advanced distro users.
I know how to drive a car. I am clueless when it comes to auto mechanics. I don't need to be a mechanic to drive a car well. Might it be useful to me to learn mechanics? Sure, but I have zero interest and little time. To the vast majority of computer users an operating system is the means to run applications. They don't want to learn internals nor should they have to in order to use Linux. The elitism I refer to treats these people as somehow inferior. This isn't "the Windows way" (your words again) as it applies equally to Mac or Linux.
Also, if stating an informed opinion based on professional experience is somehow "smug" or "elitist" then I guess we should all be a bunch of know-nothings. Sorry, no thanks. Methinks you should take your misplaced outrage and instead do some serious reflection over what you have posted.
70 • davemc (by dave on 2009-07-27 21:38:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
Comment deleted (disrespectful).
71 • @70 (by dooooo on 2009-07-27 21:43:21 GMT from Jordan)
Comment deleted (disrespectful).
72 • Monday blues? (by Sean on 2009-07-27 21:47:58 GMT from United States)
Green tea with honey for all!
I'll use my Sabayon 4.2 Gnome laptop here to remind myself not associate negativities posted here with the distros mentioned therein.
Otherwise I'd never have tried many of them.
73 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-07-27 21:50:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
74 • Caitlyn (by davemc on 2009-07-27 22:07:54 GMT from United States)
See my post #63, in which I said that perhaps I misinterpreted your post, and that I apologized if that was the case. Your post is #69, after the fact. I made my original post with nothing but sincerity, not one whit of elitism intended, nor any negative connotations intended towards anyone. After today though I see more clearly now WHY there is issues within the Linux community. Today, I inadvertantly, and unintentionally created an issue that grew into some ugly thing never imagined. That was a misjudgement on my part through misinterpreting a couple of posts here (and I believe several people also misinterpreted me) and it ballooned on from there. My apologies to all.
75 • @66 jrob (by Tom on 2009-07-27 22:22:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
76 • #75 (by davemc on 2009-07-27 22:27:17 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
77 • And the winner is ... (by Warper on 2009-07-27 22:35:25 GMT from United States)
I see no reason for the flame war. We all agree in that Linux is what we love. If we like Arch, Fedora, Sabayon, Slackware, Debian, OpenSuse, etc is just a matter of what has proven worthy for each and everyone, there is no need to try to force anyone else to use the distro we use. I myself have 3 different distros being used on different PCs right now (wife's, son's, and mine) so it's everyone's choice and no problem with that.
We have to be clear that we have the choice to do whatever we want with our distro this is why we chose Linux, we could help anyone who asks for it by guiding him/her not by fighting between ourselves.
Anyway, I love Linux and really enjoy every DWW.
Thanks to everyone for making it so enjoyable.
78 • No subject (by Sertse on 2009-07-27 22:47:22 GMT from Australia)
You claim something is "the true linux way" - that's a statement of superiority against other distros.
What is often implied in the "the beginners guide is SO easy! anyone can do it and you'll, and you'll have this awesome system at the end which you're missing out on" is that anyone who can't follow it/doesn't want to is somehow a lessor Linux user. Because in the end, what you're saying is that they should be able to do it, in fact that it's so simple to do and have such benefits, why aren't you doing it, that if they can't......you're pretty such saying it the user's fault.
That's what I find condescending from Arch, at Linux Slackware/Gentoo etc acknowledge the possibility their style isn't for everyone. The vibe is that Arch think it is, and that you suck if you can't do it.
79 • #78 (by davemc on 2009-07-27 22:58:18 GMT from United States)
Yes, your right and I "get it" now. I did not understand that before, and so I took the reaction to my post the wrong way because of that. To me, there really is not any big deal between using one distro or another, ie. I dont see any one distro as making a person "better" than any other, but some do I guess, and so I could not understand the idea that some would think elitism would be involved in my posts.
80 • The Best Distros & KISS Princable? (by Jason Mclovein on 2009-07-27 23:01:08 GMT from United States)
I've been a distro hopper for years but i think i finally settled down (but still install a few to mess with from time to time) My Top would have to be OpenSuse and Ubuntu ! Fedoras broken! so i'm waiting for the next release because this ones too much of a mess even though i know what i'm doing somewhat and could fix it. do people really enjoy manual labor anymore? setting up there distro thats way too stupid to set up it's self?(no offense) i mean i'm kinda a guru and can do this if necessary
but come on people! it's 2009! are computers should be making us toast! and reading the morning paper! right? why do some insist on these old fashioned distros that aren't smart enough to recognize a usb mouse without you firing up vi? the KISS principle should mean Kind Insane Setup Stupid! are the developers too lazy to develop tools?(jokeing) and the way i see it is if you don't like the tools don't use them! I mean no offense to developers of these projects you do great work and i respect that.SO Happy birthday Gentoo! and Arch! (i know it's not archs birthday) + Slackware way to make a Kind Insane Setup Stupid! JK we love you kinda i don't know why though.
81 • Wow #80! Does anyone know of..... (by JD on 2009-07-27 23:07:04 GMT from United States)
Wow #80 thats like a kick in the you know what! but so true!
Hey i was just wondering does anyone know of any Free software(For Linux) that can read Htmls and PDFs out loud for you? staring at the screen all day hurts my eyes! Many Thanks! Wouldn't it be cool if you could select "read" and have a long page read to you?
Great DW weekly! Best of Times For The DW Team!
82 • Virtualisation (by MB on 2009-07-27 23:41:53 GMT from Australia)
After 4 years of running virtual servers and desktops I am becoming a big fan of KVM.
On Debian 5.02 I am currently running 4 Linux virtual machines in 1600Mb and after more than a week I have had no problems at all.
With VirtualBox I always seemed to run out of memory on the host.
I will have to try a Windows machine at some stage - if I can still find my ancient XP install cd.
To #81 I think Festival is what you are looking for but I can't guarantee that.
83 • Religious distros (by Merlin on 2009-07-28 01:07:24 GMT from Canada)
I wonder if they are changing the daemons to angels?
84 • @83 daemons and angels (by PCBSDuser on 2009-07-28 01:50:23 GMT from Canada)
Cute, but remember that Unix "daemons" come from Greek mythology. They handle tasks that are too petty for the gods. Christian "demons" are evil spirits.
85 • Thanks #82 (by JD on 2009-07-28 02:13:22 GMT from United States)
thanks #82(MB) festival works, thanks for the suggestion.
@ 83 Nice ! while there at it they should change the freebsd logo to a angel as well!
they should get rid of that evil logo! well... i guess it's just a joke and all,
86 • #31 Buddha Nature (by Elder V. LaCoste on 2009-07-28 02:42:09 GMT from United States)
I found the link to download Buddhabuntu. Only 32 days to go...(it's a bit slow).
My cat chews heads off rabbits, does she have Buddha nature?
Where is Forest? I usually have a disagreement with him by now.
#72 Caitlyn takes her tea with lime not honey. You haven't been paying attention.
87 • *nix compose key sequences... (by Merlin on 2009-07-28 03:03:51 GMT from Canada)
... ǎřě ḿµćħ ḿǫŗë ĭŋẗǔíẗïṽè ťḧåñ ₩īñđøẘş™ Åłţ₊ÑÑÑÑ ₥ēŧḧŏđ
my 2¢ worth
88 • Michael Raugh's distro odyssey.. (by Witsenhuysen on 2009-07-28 04:49:34 GMT from United States)
Good article. Look forward to part II.
Give 64Bit Linux a go. You will be pleasantly surprised.
89 • Linus Torvalds in the news (by Observer on 2009-07-28 06:23:39 GMT from Australia)
Linus Torvalds: .." I may make jokes about Microsoft at times, but at the same time, I think the Microsoft hatred is a disease. I believe in open development, and that very much involves not just making the source open, but also not shutting other people and companies out.
There are 'extremists' in the free software world, but that's one major reason why I don’t call what I do 'free software' any more. I don't want to be associated with the people for whom it's about exclusion and hatred."
Microsoft Patches Linux; Linus Responds
90 • #55 "Windows way" vs "Linux way" (by Xtyn on 2009-07-28 07:10:47 GMT from Romania)
That mentality you mentioned (I hope it's not yours), that Windows treats you like a moron and Linux treats you like a genius, that is so '90.
That mentality is the reason why a lot of people won't even go near Linux, although a lot of user-friendly distros are way easier to install and use than windblows.
Slackware's way of doing things is so '90. Arch and Gentoo and LFS are not that far away. I get it, some people like to do it that way, good for them.
Developers have worked hard to make GNU/Linux easier. We don't have to do things the hard way. Spending 2 weeks compiling Gentoo will make it faster than any other distro, so what?
The most annoying thing is that some users want Linux to be difficult. They even hate Ubuntu because now, anyone can use Linux. They feel that Linux is an elite. They want Linux to be a niche OS, they don't want it to become popular.
P.S. Sorry if i hurt anyone's feelings, didn't mean to.
91 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-28 09:48:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
With apologies to EVL for coming in so late.
Well I hope not to come up with a point for dispute...sounds as though there's been plenty of that already...and it's only Tuesday morning in UK...and the newsletter was published less than 24 hours ago!
I have to agree with #50 and similar right down to Xytn's particularly cogent point, IMNSHO, in #90...the elitism element of Linux is being demolished by such offerings as Ubuntu and some hobbyists appear to resent it...Why?
GNULinux really is supposed to be for everybody...certainly the rest of the planet seems to think so and is busily churning out distros as we type...completely oblivious to what "we" think, LOL.
From what I read in these very columns it is clear to me, and possibly other folks, that the hobbyist faction is fast becoming a minority, the Home Page and Newsletter are stuffed with info about distros from all over the planet, info about gamers' distros, scientific distros...yet, as said before, very few seem to think this is of any consequence, again, why?
I would have expected this increasing use of GNULinux stuff would be cause for some sort of celebration, yet it seems to be far more important to deconstruct a post, sometimes to the extent of acrimony, 'cos you don't agree with it...which, in turn, produces a rigorous defence from the first party, and so on.
So, do we really need all this argument, which rarely resolves matters anyway...perhaps folk might consider, if time allows, reading some of the other stuff on the distros and nattering about that...after all that is why they are published in the first place.
92 • linux as not windows (by Sean on 2009-07-28 10:30:57 GMT from United States)
To me the notions of linux being "foss, gnu, 'for everybody'," etc were a rather distant backdrop to the primary discovery that there was an alternative to the windows operating system that was not just on my hard drive but was also assumed to be "computing" in general.
I felt sly, even a bit evil as I replaced windows 95 with red hat that fateful day in 1996.
Too bad about the cookie cutter fonts, etc, but I obviously continued and I don't mind saying that I've grown along with linux changes just fine; we've been through a lot, me and linux.
All this about different distros, all this &*&%$! arguing amongst us about them, seems sad when I think about what linux has accomplished since the early and mid 90s.
A strategy developed among us to keep Microsoft out of linux distributions seems to me like the only thing worth fighting about. Microsoft is so powerful in so many ways that we even accept the idea that we have to have wine and crossover-like distros to get work done or at least to run our favorite apps. I hate that; linux was an alternative, a sly way to put distance between us and them. That's where our angst should be directed, in my opinon.
93 • room for all (by Tom on 2009-07-28 10:33:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think there is plenty of room in linux for elitism in many different areas; server & corporate use vs ethical issues vs normal desktop use vs training, learning & developing and so on with endless distinctions within each & each helping the others develop! Sometimes different concerns such as ethical and corporate-use joining together to present a very strong front.
Hmm, Linus hates the haters? I find that people new to linux often do go through that hating, 'anti-microsquish' phase but are often very productive too. Should we exclude the haters or help them work through the process? There's room for some quite extreme viewpoints but as part of the community this tends to get averaged out. Sometimes these extreme views express things worth working with to improve on current systems. Do we want to standstill and stick with the way things are or just gradually improve things or do we sometimes need to see radical improvements in certain areas that we can dip out toes into and explore when we feel ready?
Please can we give DaveMc and Caitlyn (& others) a break? I don't always agree and might say so loudly but i definitely value their inputs and respect them even if i disagree with an odd comment or two. Sometimes they've changed my opinions or taught me something.
I think each distro is superior to every other distro in some way. Lets celebrate that by pointing out the advantages and how to mitigate against the distros flaws - much better than attacking other distros without giving insightful reasons why you 'hate' them lol. Admiring one distro doesn't mean 'hating' all others, there is a real difference.
I think a good 'war-cry' or tag-line for *nix might be "Diversity breeds serendipity" or "Diversity breeds strength"
Good luck all and regards from
94 • Ok now were carrying this to extremes (by davemc on 2009-07-28 11:45:01 GMT from United States)
Xtyn (Ladislav?), I would like to know why you are pushing the "elitism" topic?
Can you please explain? It seems apparent to me that you are trying to reignite yesturdays issues. Am I wrong?
Look, I never intended any elitism to be conveyed from my posts, and I DEFINITELY do not feel that using any type, form, or incarnation of Linux makes one elite. What I meant to convey was that, by using Arch (could have been any number of Distro's, but just happened to be Arch in this particular case) I learned Linux to a much finer degree because the install process forced me to. Thats it, so please stop trying to respark a flame war. Thanks.
95 • Distro Hopping (by Jose Mirles on 2009-07-28 12:15:49 GMT from United States)
All this talk of Arch Linux now has me curious. As it happens, I just blew up my Mepis install last night experiementing with Debian Unstable repository.
I'll print out their manual and install it tonight.
I'll keep it until Wolvix comes out.
P.S. Sorry for the Wolvix comment Ladislav, the daemons made me do it.
P.S. 2 Oh God, I can't stop!
96 • why linux (by divadgnol on 2009-07-28 12:16:51 GMT from United States)
I find it hard to believe anyone uses Gnu/Linux because they *HATE* Windows. Is your story something like this: I was using windows this morning and realized that they are purposely crushing the competition to maintain their monopoly? Or, was it that you were running you favorite program/playing your favorite game and realized – my OS is full of security breaches. Come on – let’s get real. The real story probably goes something like this – I started using Linux because my friend told me about this different OS. When did you start using Linux and why? I am willing to bet the reason has nothing to do with the cost of Windows. For the most part, most of us didn’t even pay for our hardware, even then, it’s probably an old machine you had prior to moving out of your parent’s house. If you still live at home please don’t comment here because you have no idea what freedom really is.
97 • Elitism (by Landor on 2009-07-28 12:25:22 GMT from Canada)
Regardless of anything anyone wants to say, facts are quite clear. The majority of people here commenting on this subject I personally believe are barely even intermediate level users, at best.
A couple years ago, people knocked me a bit for my belief in how simple and superior Gentoo is/was. Obviously that came from people who made comments like "it takes two weeks to compile everything", "you get no performance gain", "you have to be a super geek to use it and live by the computer". Curiously enough none of the people making such claims had ever installed Gentoo. More curious were the people who were astonished that my 14 year old son (at the time) "perfectly" installed Gentoo across a wide array of systems, including an Xbox and PS3, just from "actually reading" documentation.
Yes, there is an elitism, as there is in everything. Lesson learned though, if you don't want to learn, keep your own feelings of inferiority compared to someone who does know to yourself. They can't help that they grew to know more than you, or had the desire for such. It's like talking a CEO of a company down when all you wanted to do was sweep floors. Absurd.
My nerves. You're wagin' fingertip war with someone for the fact that they had a desire to do and learn more than you. Also, they're proud of that fact, and the distro that helped them get there.
I wasn't shocked in the slightest to see a current author here jump on that bandwagon either. Forever drama.
I'm sure this post will be deleted.
Keep your stick on the ice...
98 • *nix compose key sequences (by joji on 2009-07-28 12:34:49 GMT from Belgium)
87 • *nix compose key sequences (Merlin from Canada)
"ǎřě ḿµćħ ḿǫŗë ĭŋẗǔíẗïṽè ťḧåñ ₩īñđøẘş™ Åłţ₊ÑÑÑÑ ₥ēŧḧŏđ"
Thank you. Marvellous!!
Why that post here? Just what I was looking for ...
How did you manage to make all those characters? Is there anywhere a tutorial? Any url?
99 • switching to Ubuntu (by divadgnol on 2009-07-28 12:40:40 GMT from United States)
I am switching from Slackware to Ubuntu.... I am willing to bet that I can still get on the internet, write emails, and watch YouTube videos. I probably will be able to edit my pics, and even stream some audio at the same time. Wow - they really are different operating systems, aren't they???
100 • @97 (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-28 12:40:49 GMT from United States)
While Arch may require more knowledge to configure and understand, I'm simply just not interested in what it has to offer. That required knowledge doesn't automatically make it better.
I COULD spend a few days reading documentation for Gentoo. I COULD hand craft every configuration file in my computer. I COULD learn all of these things that the common distro does for you.
I just don't want to. I have no use for knowing these things. Obviously you do have a use for these things, but you think you're better for it. Your assumption of superiority is at best elitism.
Not only do you touch on elitism, but you also draw parallels to classism as well. Are you saying that Ubuntu users are the janitor levels, and that Gentoo users are the CEO's? Fedora users are on the porverty line, while Arch users are out making millions? Heh. Bad analogy.
Sure, you learned more than me. Congrats. But your choice is a valid choice, just as mine is to pick Ubuntu. My needs differ from yours. I tried Arch, learned quite a bit, and then walked away. It wasn't for me.
Neither is "better" than the other. Anyone who says anything of the sort is deeply disturbed.
Dear lord, people, it's an operating system. Get a grip. If you think you're better because you hand-picked your daemons to run in your Arch Linux installation, go outside and have a few breaths from the real world.
101 • Thoughts and thanks (by Michael Raugh on 2009-07-28 12:41:19 GMT from United States)
Wow. I spent the weekend out of town, so it was a surprise to me when Ladislav posted the piece so quickly. I'm humbled and very gratified by the response. (BTW, this wasn't a case of "I can do better than So-And-So" -- I've been reading DWW for years and finally had a chance to start giving back, that's all. Thanks again, Ladislav, for the opportunity!)
Too many responses to single out or this post will be longer than the article, so let me just hit the high/lowlights:
Next chapter: Will be either Arch or Sidux, based on my own inclination and the enthusiasm here for those. I was also looking at Pardus, but I think I'll wait until there's a 64-bit version. Sabayon and, because I've never tried a source-based distro, Gentoo are also on the short list. I'm playing with Fedora 11 on my laptop right now, so I'm already familiar with it. Wolvix will get a try once it's out of beta. And you're right, I need to include a BSD.
XP license: Several folks hit this one -- I do need that license for my virtual machine, so for now it's a necessary evil.
@6 (Not Bob): In a large corporate (or, in my case, US Federal Government) environment compiling your own kernel is not only unnecessary but counter-productive. Vendor support contracts typically won't cover a home grown kernel. It's also highly unusual to find X running on a server -- it's generally not necessary and can be another vector for attack. So instead of recompiling the kernel and toying with X I focus my work efforts on writing custom Nagios plugins, improving my self-developed automated inventory and support systems, tuning Apache/MySQL/PHP on the web servers, tweaking my Puppet manifest, and similar n00b pursuits. ;^)
On Ubuntu: I hear you, and I knew that there would be plenty of readers less than thrilled to read about an Ubuntu install. As I said, though, I had to get something usable set up quickly, and whatever its other virtues and vices Ubuntu is very quick to set up.
On virtualization: Admittedly I'm a VMware guy primarily because it's the first one I learned and it continues to work for me. I played with Xen briefly but couldn't do much with it for hardware reasons (BIOS wouldn't allow enabling the necessary hardware support). Since VMware only officially supports Red Hat and SUSE, though, I'm likely to run into issues more often than not. This would be a very good time to try VirtualBox and KVM.
"Distro X would never make it in the corporate world": Absolutely true for all but a very few values of X, and saying so is not an insult to anyone that I can see. Corporate requirements are typically rigid and conservative to a fault. Enterprises shun experimental code, bleeding-edge features, and anything that doesn't come with a 24x7 support contract. Caitlyn knows that environment intimately and speaks the truth.
Again, thanks everyone. I'll keep reading the comments and will get back to work soon.
102 • #97 (by RC on 2009-07-28 13:17:36 GMT from United States)
Wow! Entitled that one appropriately I think. Everyone's ego needs stroking...or self stroking. And if running a particular distro does that for you then that is fine. And feeling superior to others is pretty common among the human race. Problem is when you make a point of sticking it in others faces. Others tend to resent that....hence the bickering on the comments this week. Any chance you are a psychologist?
103 • Why we do it (by davemc on 2009-07-28 13:20:30 GMT from United States)
What a great post Landor. I agree wholeheartedly, and I wish I had that kind of writing ability to convey so much in such a short post.
About the apparent current topic, "elitism in Linux", or so it seems, I think there is a very large rush to judgement that is its own extremism. Yes, I understand that there are some few who do look down upon those less knowledgeable than themselves. It is from some few of these we typically see things like "RTFM noob" consistently from post to post. However, there is also many who mistakenly are pushed into this category, I feel unfairly. For example, I first learned basic Bash the first time I installed Gentoo because I had problems (of course) and I went on #Gentoo IRC, asked things like, "how do I mount my usb drive?", and after being ignored for a long time, finally, someone told me to type "man mount" into the terminal and find out for myself. At first, I admit I was put off by this attitude, but then I did it, found the answer myself, mounted my usb drive, and now I know how to do it, and best yet, I know where to look for answers before coming into IRC and asking. Now I ask you all, was the guy on #Gentoo IRC acting "elite", or was he just trying to help me, help myself?..
We all come here and check out Linux websites because this is our hobby, our love, for many reasons, each his/her own. We all share that in common. I think its counter productive for us to cut down on each other because a person feels this way or that about Distro X or Y. For me, I love it because I am never "done" learning. The more I learn about it, the more I love it. We talk or write about the things we love because we are Human, and like all Humans, sometimes we make mistakes in how we write a post, or how we interpret a posts meaning, generally speaking.
104 • #103 (by RC on 2009-07-28 13:27:17 GMT from United States)
Maybe my interpretive skills are screwed up this week. I am confused by your appreciation for his writing skills and then follow that with your comments. Your post sounds the exact opposite of Landor's to me. I much prefer yours.
105 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-28 13:35:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
No, I meant there is no room for elitism, which might imply all sorts of societal differences...which is the very last thing GNULinux needs, and might be considered divisive by some.
Certainly, there is a place for the "expert", without whom we would be hard pressed to have any sort of society at all.
Hmm, is MS still so powerful? Casual perusal of this website, among others, indicates a growing number of authorities, across the planet, are adopting GNULinux stuff with alacrity...they can't all be wrong. MS cannot force manufacturers to install there software...it was just convenient...at that time.
In Europe MS are having to offer a choice of browsers, whether they like it or not, see here:
I am particularly amused by the "agrees" bit...they had no choice in the matter, unless they were willing to fork out a lot of cash in fines...and they would still have to comply.
To my mind MS are only too aware of their diminishing stranglehold on the desktop and appear keen to help with all sorts of OS stuff by getting cosywith Red Hat, say. Witness their latest "gift"...
From what I read it would appear that an entity, not having to rely on, sometimes, foreign (with a not necessarily benign international relationship) "help" with your OS and apps is a very big plus.
In business ventures the cost savings may possibly be very considerable by adopting GNULinux software.
I would suggest the world is constantly evolving, no surprise there then, and if some folk can design an OS, which is generally considered to be "not bad at all"...is generally unaffected by internet nasties, and, is inherently more secure not to mention more stable...then why not check it out?
And, if that were not enough...is free to all, so consequently has no restrictions on being altered by anyone in any way for any reason, then why would "we" bother with some OS which is almost entirely the other way?
Granted, there are reasonable arguments about specific apps and drivers...but that might apply at the "time of writing".
If you were to consider "computers" as an example, when they first became available, so to speak, they needed entire buildings to house them...not to mention armies of minions and acolytes to service and run them. Now, anyone can buy a more powerful machine, in laptop form say, which is virtually "unbreakable".
To couch the scenario in an historical theme, if you lived under the aegis of the Roman Empire, the last thing on your mind would have been its collapse...until you saw the hoards of the alleged (very much so) barbarians, on your doorstep.
106 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-28 13:44:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
Oops..."their" and "hordes", LOL.
107 • #39 (by Barnabyh on 2009-07-28 13:50:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
Is that sarcasm I detect there?
108 • The one true linux way (by Barnabyh on 2009-07-28 13:56:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
Let's not forget to carry on the war over what is the one true linux way well into 2010... perhaps we can all meet up one day with Star Wars light sabers and slug it out?
I'm joking of course, if there is any doubt, or does that seem like a fun idea to you guys?
109 • #101, Michael (by Barnabyh on 2009-07-28 14:26:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
By any means, try Sidux 2009.2, but KDE froze on me constantly, possibly due to the mix of v3 and v4 libraries. Slackware 13 is stable, good looking (arguably, with no custom background and splash) and an overall much cleaner KDE 4.2.4 experience than sidux, due to not installing any KDE3 libs AFAIK.
110 • @105 (by Sean on 2009-07-28 15:11:21 GMT from United States)
Ahh.. I love that closing analogy, Forest. It works for me and gives me hope.
But then I'm one of those who rooted for the "barbarians" as I read history, not with an eye on their destructions of the Empire so much as a growing understanding of their diversity: the very thing that has a way of rendering walls not relevant thereby causing Gates and Windows to eventually go by the wayside.
111 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-28 15:28:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
Damn! I wish I said the barbarians "at" the "Gates", LOL!
112 • No subject (by Sean on 2009-07-28 16:14:36 GMT from United States)
Open source seems like a system with no barriers compared to Microsoft's schema. We're without fences and walls.. we really own it when we install it.
No fences or walls = no need for Gates or Windows. :o)
113 • VMWARE and Linux (by Steve Graham on 2009-07-28 16:45:10 GMT from United States)
Your article made me think of a challenge I have. I would like to run Linux on my new PC, but I work for a Windows-based shop and we run a number of apps which I believe will not work under Linux (heck they don't even run under Vista!), but they do run under XP. Can you give me a brief overview on what would be required to run XP/XP apps under Linux with VMWare? I will have 2GB of RAM running under a 1.73 GHz Celeron.
114 • clouds and light-sabres (by Tom on 2009-07-28 18:54:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
I quite fancy joining in with a light-sabers tourney. Can i be Conner McCloud of the Cloud Clan McCloud?
115 • Nice to see plenty of variation! (by Anonymous on 2009-07-28 20:34:26 GMT from United States)
I enjoyed reading the feature story this week: "Feature: A distro odyssey - looking for the best fit, part 1". I also enjoyed reading the recognition that a few of the alternatives have received - mention of the BSDs, specific mention of PC-BSD 7.1.1 - (I managed to test it out recently in a Virtualbox OSE instance and it is nice). Also good to see recent reviews of CentOS, a healthy discussion of Arch Linux, and brief mention of the recent releases of sidux 2009.02 and antiX M8.2 - two fine Debian based distributions that seem to have relatively small, but loyal following.
The comments section here can be pretty volatile at times. I do not mind seeing differing points of opinion; I think that it is possible to have healthy dialog whether agreements can be reached or not. The only thing that troubles me from time to time is when discussions lead to arguments with accusations and name calling. That is the point where discussions cease to be healthy from my point of view. I am willing to tolerate some of that, though, in the interest of having many points of view being expressed.
Regarding software freedom, I am grateful that we have a staunch advocate, even one who has much sharper views on such freedoms than many of us. While my own computer usage is a bit more pragmatic that one who values "freedom" above functionality, I have great respect for those who work hard to advance those freedoms, and when their work produces efforts that provide useful free alternatives, I do make an effort to use them first when they meet my needs. At the same time, the pragmatic side allows me to use my freedoms to use what works best for me.
116 • Elitism, fanaticism and drooling mere users (by Miq on 2009-07-28 20:44:51 GMT from Sweden)
While most of us find communicating with either of the above rather painful, it should be said that each have their place in Linuxia, and all these types contribute to make Linux a better OS and experience.
The snobbish and technical elite is forced to move on by the bovine herds invading their aloof lands, and by doing to create new spaces.
The fanatics push the agenda and program of Linux (though you may debate whether such exists and what it is!) but in so doing, and by contrasting it to alternatives, reaffirms and demarcates its existence. They also keep the progress of Linux somewhat in check, making certain short-sighted pragmatics doesn't win out over the underlying ideals that ARE important to frankly put make the world a better place.
Finally, technically noob users are essential to improve Linux and make it a genuinely pleasant user experience. Simply put, those of us that do not self-profess to the technical CLI-only elite wish our everyday (and professional production) use to be streamlined and effortless. Without "normal" "no-tech-wanted" users we wouldn't have it and Linux simply wouldn't be where it actually is.
We may scoff at each of these, but never forget that they are what makes Linux Linux.
117 • @98 (by Merlin on 2009-07-28 21:44:59 GMT from Canada)
118 • where linux is (by Sean on 2009-07-28 21:49:00 GMT from United States)
hmm.. linux is where it is (whatever that really means) because of driver writers, over time. Drivers for hardware, etc.
What causes that to happen is probably compicated. But my guess is that a big reason for that happening has to do with direct demand by users along with clever kernel tweaking by the linux distro developers.
I don't know, but I think that Microsoft banked on that never happening.
119 • window managers, etc (by Sean on 2009-07-28 21:54:22 GMT from United States)
Sorry about the double post here (well, as if anyone reads my posts, lol). But I was thinking back to the horrid times I had with the old window managers. They have sure developed well over time (I hate KDE so I am not including that in my remarks .. *runs for cover*)..
..anyway.. the "linux is where it is because.." notion needs mention of the great job Gnome and XFCE have done over time, imo. :o)
120 • Wow! (by buntunub on 2009-07-28 22:12:47 GMT from United States)
What a DWW this week!
Its like the "we hate the know somethings" got together and decided to hold a flame session or something. Interesting. Seems that there are fanatics of every kind, isnt there? Not sure what all the Wolvix and Arch hate was about, if any, but there sure was alot of talk about those two very fine Distro's. I did not see their developers get involved though, so I guess it must have just been minor chat.
121 • There can only be one (by Barnabyh on 2009-07-28 22:30:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sure, nice to see you got the Highlander reference in there too! Perhaps suitable to meet somewhere in the Glens then, if enough are willing to travel.
122 • Wolvix (by Joey on 2009-07-28 22:43:36 GMT from United States)
I don't hate Wolvix or any other distro that would not install or work on any of my computers.
123 • Real Arch Elitism (by Anon on 2009-07-28 22:45:26 GMT from Norway)
It's all Linux. They're all just Linux. Right?
Believe it if you feel compelled to abandon thinking altogether...
A person taking the trouble installing and maintaining one of the socalled 'difficult' distros does of course gain some insights he would not get by using only the 'easy' ones. He _does get to know more than the people who have never tried or succeded using a 'difficult' distro. This is a simple fact.
However, it is also a fact that the 'difficult' distros (today) are not very difficult. They are actually quite *easy* to handle. The difference is that by using Gentoo or Slackware or Arch etc, one gets to learn a little more about Linux. Not a whole lot, not enough to warrant an elite designation, but enough to place them (a wee bit) above the rest of the herd with regard to interest and insight in Linux.
If somebody still think this is elitism, fine. It is elitism - i.e. competition - coupled with cooperation, that has brought Linux to where it is now. Sadly, Linux is still lagging behind in too many areas. We could do with more elitism.
124 • @123 (by buntunub on 2009-07-28 23:47:24 GMT from United States)
I actually agree with this. It is wrong to ostracise those who wish to delve deeper into the Linux realm and gain more knowledge, as it appears many in this thread are attempting to do. Linux is NOT Windows, and has its own way. Heck, there is an aweful lot of folks I know who prefer it like that and for darn good reason too. There is nothing wrong with the people who just want to use Linux the Windows way (ie. no knowledge of the OS), but those who do so should not attempt to force those who view Linux differently to their way of thinking either. That is elitism too. Maybe we should call that "noobescrimination". What do you guys think?
125 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-29 01:08:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think it might be a good idea if the term was referred to a dictionary. Clearly there is a misunderstanding of what elitism means..this is but one of them:
elite adj. Clueful. Plugged-in. One of the cognoscenti. Also used as a
general positive adjective. This term is not actually native hacker
slang; it is used primarily by crackers and warez d00dz, which
reason hackers use it only with heavy irony. The term used to refer to
the folks allowed in to the "hidden" or "privileged" sections of BBSes
in the early 1980s (which, typically, contained pirated software).
Frequently, early boards would only let you post, or even see, a certain
subset of the sections (or `boards') on a BBS. Those who got to the
frequently legendary `triple super secret' boards were elite.
Misspellings of this term in warez d00dz style abound; the forms `l337'
`eleet', and `31337' (among others) have been sighted.
A true hacker would be more likely to use `wizardly'. Oppose lamer.
126 • BBS' (by Landor on 2009-07-29 02:18:34 GMT from Canada)
I ran my first board (BBS) 25 years ago. I even ran a BBS via Unix and BSD as well, though, primarily I used those OS' for purely personal the majority of the time.
Later I used Linux to serve a small site (and ftp), which also allowed people to Telenet into my BBS in the 90's. I worked with a ton of different flavours of Linux during that period, even one that still makes me shake my head, doslinux.
Most boards didn't really have a lot of pirated software until the very early 90's as modem speeds increased. That's when we saw a slew of next-generation computer users, 0 day warez boards, etc.
What I love about open source software, Linux, the BSD's that are free, etc, even computers in general, is the ability to learn never ends. At least it hasn't for me in just over 25 years.
Keep your stick on the ice...
127 • @123 and 124 (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-29 02:54:44 GMT from United States)
Not just for the above two: Wherever do you see hate for Arch and the users that use it? Wolvix? Anything?
I see one person claiming Arch is the "right Linux way." People disagree. The person comes back, we discuss, and everyone speaks their mind on the subject. Where is this "hate?" Even for the elitists?
I do not "hate" or even "dislike" people who use more advanced distros. They have made their choice. Those distros work for their users, and they have pros and cons just like every other.
I dislike the mentality of people who use these advanced distros and then proclaim they are better than someone else because of it. I do not hate it, but I don't like it and wish it would leave. Newbies deserve better than to be berated by the more "advanced" Linux users for using something easier for them.
I have learned how to use Arch. I have made it work, through blood, sweat and tears. It just doesn't fit my needs. I do not like using it, personally, but it has its niche. I can't say I'm a better Linux user because of it; I went right back to Debian and Ubuntu with a smile on my face at my returning friends.
I choose not to use Arch, Slackware or Gentoo. The level of maintenance required is too much for my taste. If you think that is hate, or if you think you are a better Linux user than me, you are wrong.
There is no if's, and's or but's about it. You are wrong.
128 • Also (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-29 03:02:27 GMT from United States)
@126: I agree!
Even in Debian, I learn new things everyday. There's always some program I didn't know about, or some shortcut in a program I thought I knew. I start seeing how things mesh and talk to each other.
Even in newbie distros, there's always a capacity to learn. And I agree; that's a very fun part of Linux!
129 • Elitism yet again... (by Xtyn on 2009-07-29 07:16:09 GMT from Romania)
I don't hate any distro. What I do hate is arrogance. I don't hate Arch, I don't hate Wolvix.
I did attack Landor because of his arrogance and my post has been removed (for good reasons).
There were some things that got me irritated, like:
"For experienced users, and ordinary desktop / workstation use, there's basically no reason to go anywhere but Arch Linux."
(about Arch) -> "No crashes to date, no lockups, no freezeups (Ubuntu anyone?..)"
"This is the Arch way, they say, but really, this is the true Linux way, IMO"
"Yes, there is an elitism, as there is in everything. Lesson learned though, if you don't want to learn, keep your own feelings of inferiority compared to someone who does know to yourself. [...] It's like talking a CEO of a company down when all you wanted to do was sweep floors."
Well, I'm no GNU/Linux expert, I'm not in any elite and I wouldn't want to be in one (I hate elites). I study geography/geology but I do like GNU/Linux and I know my way around it. I did install Arch but I didn't like it's way of doing things.
I can learn from Debian or Ubuntu as much as I can learn from Arch, the difference is, Debian, Ubuntu and other distros let you choose if you want the easy way or the hard way. Everything I do in Arch I can do in Debian (if I want to).
130 • Gentoo simplicity myths (by Babysitter on 2009-07-29 08:30:59 GMT from United States)
Pointless Gentoo installation steps made me proud to discard the disc. At least one finger should be waved at developers who think that learning "sed" is a worthwhile part of the installation process. For users proud of it as an accomplishment, I question whether this knowledge is any more helpful than getting the high score on Pacman, Qbert, or Digdug.
131 • Gentoo (by Urcindalo on 2009-07-29 11:22:04 GMT from Spain)
First of all, Happy Birthday Gentoo!!
Secondly, I installed Linux for the first time on January, 2005. Previously I had been an Atari user, then a Mac OS user, and at that time I was an OS X user (and still am). I got my new and first ever PC for my office and I decided to install Linux so that I hadn't to boot into Windows. I would use it from within VMware.
After trying a few of the regular "newbie friendly" distributions at that time, mostly Debian based, including Libranet, I finally installed Gentoo. This was my last installation. I have used it ever since, and have *never* reinstalled. I've been simply updating it on an almost daily basis. I wonder if I have any of the first files still residing on my hard drive :-D By the way, I even chose the 64-bit pathway. What about that for an adventure? Remember, I was a complete Linux newbie coming from OS X!!
I can't understand why most people keep saying Gentoo is difficult to install. In fact it is a matter of copy&paste from the manual. The reward, though, is immense. And no, #130, I never had to learn "sed" to install it.
From my user perspective, Gentoo is alive and kicking and allows me to have the computer *I* want. I won't change it, ever.
If your happy with your distro, I'm happy for you. All I'm saying is I'm sticking with Gentoo for as long as it will exist.
132 • *nix compose key sequences (by joji on 2009-07-29 12:02:44 GMT from Belgium)
@117 • @98 (by Merlin on 2009-07-28 21:44:59 GMT from Canada)
Thank you very much!
How to enter these unicodes in Open Office? Any text editor where you can enter these unicodes in an easy way?
133 • Elitism and Distro's (by RC on 2009-07-29 13:00:01 GMT from United States)
It seems this discussion keeps getting more and more twisted. I see no one on here that is a "non-elite" that hates any particular distro be it Arch, Gentoo, Slack or whatever. The point has been made time and again that the attitude of some of the users of those types of distros is the issue. And again...it isn't hate...it is more frustration I think.
Each and every person on this board has a career (I hope) and their knowledge of that occupation is "elite" compared to the rest of the people on this board, yet I don't see anyone bragging or deriding others because of their lack of knowledge in those areas. So why feel the need to do it when it comes to Linux?
I agree that there is simply no need for the majority of users...me included...to learn the nuts and bolts of Linux. Thank God! I have no more desire to do that than I do to learn how to disassemble and reassemble my television in order to watch it.
However!! If you want to learn every little line of code there is to know about Gentoo, dream about using the CLI and spend your nights and weekends tweaking and coding.....God bless you!! I hope you come up with something great that benefits us all. I am not going to hate you for that any more than I would you fishing or playing golf. And I will spend my free time riding my motorcycle and expect you to not hate me for that.
The whole speil about Linus is freedom. You have the freedom to use any distro you like for whatever reason you like....whether it makes sense to me or not. I stopped using Mint and Antix because I was offended by their developers stand on certain issues. That may seem really stupid to some of you...but I have that freedom. And I cannot ever imagine spending hours and hours setting up a system with Gentoo or Arch...but I don't care or dislike you because you do. Have at it.
Just don't get on here and act like we are retards because we don't want to do what you do. Don't look or talk down to or about us because we have chosen not to make Linux the thing we spend most of our free time tinkering with.....I would rather ride. And if you want to brag about how much more you know than we do...don't. Write yourself an email and send it. In return I will not bore you with my encyclopedic knowledge of motorcycles. Fair deal?
134 • @132 (by Merlin on 2009-07-29 13:10:08 GMT from Canada)
You have to set up a key on your keyboard as a "compose" key (I use the left "Windows™" key as the compose key, but you can use the other keys too). In Gnome, go to the Keyboard preferences, in there choose the Layouts tab and finally press the Layout Options button. Look for the Compose Key option and then simply select one of the choices given to you. Now you're ready to start composing. BTW, I can't remember how to do this in KDE anymore, so sorry if that's what you use.
To compose ™, simply press the compose key, followed by the letters t and m. Simple, and I think it should work in any app on your system, including openoffice.
135 • @133 (by Merlin on 2009-07-29 13:12:43 GMT from Canada)
136 • #135 (by RC on 2009-07-29 13:31:17 GMT from United States)
Thanks Merlin...although I am reasonably sure that there are going to be some that vehemently disagree with you on that subject.
I apologize for the typo in the next to last paragraph...should be Linux not Linus obviously. One spelling error isn't bad for a noob though....
137 • AntiX (by Notorik on 2009-07-29 13:55:38 GMT from United States)
Rock on Anti, you evil provocateur! Remember though, it's not nice to challenge people to THINK.
138 • @ 137 Notorik (by Untitled on 2009-07-29 14:41:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
Deciding not to use AntiX for something that offended people doesn't mean they didn't think about it, just that they disagreed. If they didn't think about it, they would still use it.
139 • #137 (by RC on 2009-07-29 14:53:14 GMT from United States)
And here is the root of the problems in the discussions on here. Anyone who disagrees with you doesn't think, is a moron, is a noob, just doesn't "get it", aren't "l33t" like you are, etc, etc, etc.
I am sorry to disappoint you, but to the contrary, I have "thought" a great deal about the situation we are avoiding discussing here...and I obviously think that anyone without an agenda or a brainwashing problem would come to the same rational conclusion based on the real facts that I have.
You are free to disagree all you want....but do so like a rational "thinking" adult. State the basis of your disagreement with real facts and do so without attacking and belittling. Those things only show that your opinion is just that...an opinion based on your feelings and brainwashing....not a conclusion based on facts and "thought".
If everyone on this forum did that the discussions here would be far more civil and educational.
140 • #139 (by Notorik on 2009-07-29 15:59:18 GMT from United States)
LOL, you are doing exactly what you just accused me of doing:
"I am sorry to disappoint you, but to the contrary, I have "thought" a great deal about the situation we are avoiding discussing here...and I obviously think that anyone without an agenda or a brainwashing problem would come to the same rational conclusion based on the real facts that I have."
So anyone who disagrees with you is "brainwashed", or has an "agenda".
Civility does not equal educational. I have learned a lot from people who were decidedly uncivil to me.
Also, I did not say that anyone who disagrees with me does not think. All I said was "remember it's not nice to challenge people to THINK" (see above). This was just a charming (in my opinion) way of saying that people don't like to think outside of their world view box. The key word here is "challenge". You were challenged to think, you did (apparently), and you drew your own conclusions. Good job. The goal has been accomplished.
141 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-29 17:03:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
Crikey, we're not still going on about elitism related stuff are we? It's probably just a semantics thing anyway, LOL.
Just change "elite" to "expert", everybody's happy, no social connotations, sorted, job done.
Anyway, info for Debian fans and anybody else interested:
142 • #140 (by RC on 2009-07-29 17:43:39 GMT from United States)
Mmmmm...actually no...I didn't do the same thing you did. I was referring to a specific subject as you will note in my sentence. The real facts surrounding that particular subject are available for anyone who chooses to actually research and study them. Those facts only support one side of the issue...period. The only way to come to another conclusion is to ignore those facts...generally by listening to someone that is selling their agenda.
Is this true in other areas? Absolutely....but politics and religion seems to suffer the most for it. And taht particular subject encompasses both.
What I didn't do was call you names or treat you like you were a darwinian loser. I said you were free to disagree with me....but to present a logical argument based on real facts....not propaganda, made up "facts" or tugging at heartstrings.
And true...civility does not equal education...but in any given area it is usually the result of it. People generally don't get angry when they have a solid foundation of facts to support thier position. The ones who get angry, derogatory, threatening...are usually the ones who have no basis of fact to stand on and in frustration get angry instead.
There is an old saying about a married couple. That if they never argue one of them is unnecessary. The same is true in most things. Having a different view is not the problem...having one that can't be defended with honest facts is.
And you are right...mission accomplished. We actually wound up having a civil exchange of ideas...and agree on most of them. Who knows....we may even agree on more in the future. There may be earthquakes and blood on the moon!
143 • @141 (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-29 17:45:28 GMT from United States)
Actually, I found the Debian thing very interesting.
They're shooting for a release in Spring 2010, which means Debian 6.0 will be released on Christmas of 2010 if my calculations are correct.
Aside from my joking, it's pretty astonishing that Debian is coming out with Squeeze so quickly. I still haven't acclimated to Lenny yet!
I think they're trying to help Ubuntu a bit with the LTS releases...or perhaps become an LTS Ubuntu release themselves? Either way, a two-year distro sounds perfect, especially with one that has such a good level of optional testing repositories like Debian.
144 • i'm out (by divadgnol on 2009-07-29 17:55:42 GMT from United States)
I would like to say for the record - That I really am better than the rest of you want to be Linux users. I have switched to bsd as of today.
I got up this morning, put on a pot of coffee and then installed openbsd. What a treat- The install was straight forward and getting wireless to work was as easy as, well, taking candy from a baby. Pkg_add is a wonderful tool and the repos are full of great packages. So, so long and good riddance to this sight. I will be posting my comments on
http://www.daemonforums.org/ where people actually help each other.
If others would like to join the revolution, I suggest going to the openBSD website and reading the provided documentation. Every aspect of the install process is well doucmented and easy to understand. Ladislav, feel free to block me. Your site has gone to hell in a handbasket and you all deserve each other. Keep up the trivial fighting because it makes for great drama.
145 • (forgive me?) (by Sean on 2009-07-29 18:23:02 GMT from United States)
A-hem.. this is an aside, way off-topic but I am having trouble about a small issue in Sabayon.
I see the issue was posted in the forums at Sabayon, and at the Gnome.org forums and 0 responses in both places. Perhaps it can be addressed here? If they have the same issue unanswered as mine, then maybe I can go to those forums and post the solution:
It's simple... in Sabayon 4.2 Gnome the "mouse" preferences program will not start. It says, "starting mouse" on the panel after clicking "mouse' in the preferences menu. The busy cursor comes up and it waits for about 15 seconds then the panel notification vanishes and that's that.
Trying from terminal just brings up, "no such command."
How do I trouble shoot this? Or better yet how do I make it work? :o)
146 • re 145 (by Anonymous on 2009-07-29 18:49:39 GMT from Canada)
Have you tried to run that command as root? If you go to /usr/bin and execute
ls | grep mouse
what do you get?
(ls is lower case L and | is pipe)
147 • Feature (by Tom on 2009-07-29 18:59:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
Michael Raugh, thank you :) I enjoyed that article. Great to hear dual-screen was ok :)
I was somewhat dismayed to hear skype is such a hassle because i'm going to have to try it very soon. Are alternatives such as ekiga compatible with people on Window systems? Is ekiga similar at all?
148 • LinuxQuestions (by Tom on 2009-07-29 19:02:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
seems to be another good general purpose forum worth asking questions like that in. Do other people have other favourites, good for distro-hoppers?
149 • @146 (thank you for responding) (by Sean on 2009-07-29 19:13:47 GMT from United States)
# ls | grep mouse
150 • running mouse as root (by Sean on 2009-07-29 19:14:33 GMT from United States)
yields "command not found" as in running it as user.
151 • Arch again... (by Xtyn on 2009-07-29 19:34:32 GMT from Romania)
Ok, after all this talk about Arch I installed it again, today.
I configured everything...yeah, I know, what a headache.
So, I joined the expert bandwagon, right?
Just joking, I don't feel savvier.
I'll keep it for a while, just to see what's it all about.
Just for the record, it doesn't seem faster than Debian, the repository is smaller and the mirrors are not as fast, the Arch mirror from my country didn't work.
152 • re Sabayon mouse issue (by Anonymous on 2009-07-29 20:35:46 GMT from Canada)
I've never used Sabayon but "command not found" suggests that this utility is not installed on your machine. Try to see if such a package exists in Sabayon's repositories and install it. Also gnome-mouse-properties looks promising. Have you tried it?
153 • thank you "anonymous" (by Sean on 2009-07-29 20:59:06 GMT from United States)
I've got work to do. I have a start now, thanks to your "grep" command suggestion.
I got an error message "...(blah blah)..could be a problem with Bonobo..." etc in an applet when trying from su "gnome-mouse-properties." I got nothing when trying that command as user.
I'll try to reinstall the mouse utility again; I'd done that before but that was before an update.
This is my last post in this comments area about this.. thank you very much.. now back to "elite" discussion, etc. :o)
154 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-07-29 22:21:18 GMT from United States)
@148: The Distrowatch comments section is a pretty good place to ask questions and stuff.
@144: Man, you sound like we were keeping you here! Heh!
I agree with your stipulation the comments section has devolved a lot recently. Most comments lately are, if not uninteresting, usually flat out wrong. I'm quite glad I never attached an e-mail address to Nobody Important.
But, hey, I like DWW, so i keep coming back.
155 • above was mine (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-29 22:23:23 GMT from United States)
Above comment was mine, if that wasn't apparent.
Oh, and also @144: I might have to try OpenBSD now. It's always sounded pretty neat.
156 • Xtyn (by davemc on 2009-07-30 00:06:49 GMT from United States)
Congratz on getting Arch up and running. I trust you found it as easy to do as I did. I am sure you will also find it to be completely maintenance free, just exactly as it has been for me as well. Get it setup as you like, then sit back and enjoy the boredom of no issues! As far as the repo's, well, I have discovered that arch has pretty much everything any other distro has via pacman or through AUR.
Anyway, good DWW issue and posts. Have fun Linux'ing guys. Looking forward to next weeks issue.
157 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-30 06:52:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just read this. In the comments section following there are some amusing comments concerning Linux...spot the MS supporter guy...and the the "learned" opinions on Linux security theory...some people just don't see it.
158 • a few things (by Tom on 2009-07-30 10:11:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
Someone has asked about which distro to use in the old unix-workstation/terminal style - with 1 machine serving perhaps just 10 users, each with their own keyboard, mouse and monitor. Is this sort of thing possible with linux?
@ Forest - ooo, people spreading mis-information like that really annoys me especially when claiming to be a "long time unix guru" rofls. I wanted to post this link
Gentoo - htb :)) (err, that's Happy Birthday to Gentoo) good to see it's pulled through some tough times :)
Omega's looking interesting. Does it make installing/using a basically Fedora system effectively more user-friendly than Ubuntu? How does it compare to Mint? & Momonga?
Becky @51 last week, i hope the newer Mint has helped with the multimedia side of your multi-boot. I'm curious how the CentOs side is going, particularly with plugging the laptop into different monitors at different clients sites? Also curious if you are a developer with a particular project or is the coding all about customising your clients systems? Obviously no need to answer here but i'm sure i'm not the only one curious to hear about successful role models in linux support roles.
FreeBsd does look more intriguing all the time. Is "FreeBSD News" the 'paper' that nearly went under a few weeks ago but got rescued by sudden upsurge in interest and subscriptions?
SuperGamer Supreme, how does this compare with
that was release last month sometime? I think that games are one of the 3 or so big areas linux needs to really push in to. Perhaps doing so might help us deal with reluctant multimedia hardware manufacturers?
AntiX release - great! :) Really nice to see a new release from this excellent distro. I've really enjoyed using this one and it has saved my bacon a few times ;) I think i do think sometimes anyway but it's good to be challenged to think again in another way. I don't always agree with some of the release code names antiX choses and sometimes find them deeply embarrassing or perhaps even insulting but it is such a great distro that people seeing it on their machine are much more impressed than something like Puppy. AntiX is definitely worth showing off to noobs on old machines :)
Momonga at last showing real mahjong rather than the stupid westernised version often in distros. Great to see improvements in Japanese character input. I'm curious how Momonga compares with Mint & Omega in terms of multimedia ease of use. I'm also curious how widely linux is used in japan as the mainstream-media & news in 'my' country stereotypes Japanese people as being extremely cutting edge in hardware and social-media terms of which neither seems to be gnu&linux's strong-suite. Good luck with this!
Do VB/VBA developers have good tools in linux without resorting to Mono and the whole .Net thing? From an outsiders point of view Mono (& also the microsquishes release of OpenSource ("honest guv") code) does seem to rely heavily on believing the microsquish vultures singing "We are your friends" as in good ol'Walt's "Jungle Book"
Yin Yang Linux is this likely to be competing with CdLinux, from here it looks like very different markets of a hugely vast market anyway. I hoe that between them they can significantly dominate those markets :) Always good to see choices ;)
Scientific Linux, i saw an old gnu&linux aimed specifically at physicists but this seesm much more noob friendly, easier to install and use :)
Michael Raugh it would have been good to hear about using VirtualBox instead something that isn't included in almostevery distro but on the other hand it was even better to hear about a good alternative. There seem to be quite a few other sites that might be interested in your articles. With the length of some people's posts in here i's amazing that more people from here don't submit full articles to places like
Anyway thanks again for another excellent article DWW :)))
SlamPP seems interesting but does it meet Caitlyn's points about what a good server needs? Or is it 'just good enough' for a home server or does it all depend on what you're doing? Again it's good to see choices :)
LinuxFromScratch seems even more extreme than Slackware, Arch, TinyCore or Gentoo (hfb)! One of my neighbours first forays into linux was to start building up a Slackware system and of course now it's all my fault that "linux is so tough". I keep advising him to try something like Wolvix or Debian so that he can at least get something working and see what he needs to aim for and consider. It seems like building a motorbike without having any idea what one looks like. Anyway as he ignore me about Wolvix and Debian maybe i should push him into LFS. Obviously it's all my fault that "linux is so tough" and clearly i must be some super linux guru for being able to install and use Wolvix and Ubuntu lol. Sometimes i feel like buying a special cape to rush down the street in. lol. Anyway LFS looks awesome :)
Gosh loads of questions! I think this is a great place to ask questions and i think people do like a change of pace in here. It's always good to help :)
Good luck and regards from
159 • divadgnol (by Barnabyh on 2009-07-30 10:37:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
All the best divadgnol, I 'll have to try Open- and FreeBSD soon. Sounds like stability to have the software built this integrated.
160 • @Tom (by Michael Raugh on 2009-07-30 10:41:29 GMT from United States)
VMware is a commercial product, of course, hence not being included in distros. I went with it as the devil I know (and, not incidentally, the devil I bought). In future distro hops I'll definitely try VirtualBox and probably KVM just to see what's possible with FLOSS virtualization.
Skype used to be pretty simple to set up, but the client hasn't been maintained and is falling behind. Can't speak to the compatibility of Ekiga et al because I haven't tried them though if the protocols are open I don't see why they wouldn't. Voice chat via Google works fine.
Thanks, Tom and everyone else who commented, positively or otherwise, on my first DWW piece. I'll get to tinkering again in a couple of weeks and report back on the next distro.
161 • an excellent simple reply from mandriva support on the topic of codecs +dvdpb (by paul frm cork in irl at 2009-07-30 12:29:50 GMT)
The Fluendo DVD Player is not available yet (it is in certification stage and
To play DVDs, you can read this :
DVDs are encrypted:
To prevent reading them without paying rights to the DVD Copy Control
We have removed LinDVD because they where being sued by some of the owners of
these rights and the DMCA:
There is a way to circumvent this encryption with libdvdcss2 (and to copy the
contents with "dvdrip").
This is legal except in the US.
If you are out of the US you can go here:
And add the Official Medias and PLF and then perform an update, you will then
have all codecs for free. Then you can add libdvdcss and dvdrip.
PLF is totaly legal in EU but not in the US because of software patents, EU
has rejected software patents because they block innovation and commercial
competition (reason why EU is suing Microsoft and Apple for they proprietary
formats, examples here:
If you are in the US, Codeina (Menu -> Sound & Video -> Codeina) will help
you download all codecs.
Most Codecs are not free.
In the US you HAVE to buy the codecs via Codeina, so configure PLF only if
you are out of the US (legal in EU), here is a little explanation:
So check you country laws before, if any doubt you need to purchase Codeina
162 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-30 13:09:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thanks for that gen Martial S, very much appreciated.
163 • @154 (by Sean on 2009-07-30 13:13:04 GMT from United States)
Nobody Important said, "The Distrowatch comments section is a pretty good place to ask questions and stuff."
Well, questions about specific issues with a distro, like an app not starting or this or that xorg tweak, etc, can't go on too long here, as they can in the appropriate distro forum for example, because it annoys some who come here for distro discussions in general.
Questions about distro comparisons or which is best for t his or that hardware seem to go on ok without much angst from readers here, as long as no "fanboy" vibes are detected by the distro sensitive amongst us. :o)
I've seen an admonition or three in here over time.. that's why I felt I was taking a chance posting my (now resolved) prob about the mouse preferences app not starting.
164 • BSD (by Jose Mirles on 2009-07-30 14:01:51 GMT from United States)
#144's comments puzzled me. Why would he compare this site (not sight) to http://www.daemonforums.org/? This is not the place to get help and answer to questions on your distro of choice. Better would be http://www.linuxquestions.org/
As for the BSD's, I tried FreeBSD. I liked it at the time, but hardware support is limited. However, I never liked the way they do business. The thought that volunteers create a bunch of great code and then corporations can use that code and give nothing back, just irks me.
RMS/Bruce Perens have it right. I like Linux, the software, the way of thinking and the choices I have.
But I can't say that the BSD's are bad. FreeBSD is really good, I just like Linux better.
I did load Arch. Once you read (I printed everything I could find on it) the manual/wiki, it was not difficult to install. It is time consuming, but not on a Gentoo level. It is fast, but I don't see where it is faster than Slackware or Debian.
Still, it did let me get my GEEK on!!
165 • "CentOS Project Administrator Goes AWOL" wtf? (by bill on 2009-07-30 14:28:53 GMT from United States)
why I use a distro with both a large community and corporate backing
166 • @158 (by Anthony G. on 2009-07-30 14:56:23 GMT from United States)
What are you trying to prove? This one of the strangest posts I have seen. It was too long and basically pointless. Is DWW now some kind of "stream-of-conciousness babble board? Here's an idea, have something to say before you make a post. Posting a long list of uninteresting questions interspersed with whatever else happens to float through your mind is a useless waste of everyone's time.
167 • @166 (by Sean on 2009-07-30 15:03:15 GMT from United States)
I disagree with you, Anthony. Not to mention the "waste of EVERYONE'S time" remark. What do you now about everyone who reads here?
That post by Tom was, as usual, an informative, thought-provoking pleasure to read.
His posts are, thankfully, often a bit longer than the most common posts here. That's what it takes to cover one's concerns, opinions and speculations here without double and triple posting.
168 • No subject (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-30 15:07:26 GMT from United States)
@166: Your post was much more of a waste of time than his, to be honest. He touched on pretty much every bit of news around here and gave is view on things. all you did was insult him.
@Sean: I was being sarcastic when I said that. :)
169 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-30 15:47:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
I echo your remark about what Tom posted...I found the bit on Bliss of great interest...I am going to copy the link to everyone I know who runs MS...in "smug" mode...that's me in "smug" mode, not MS users, BTW. MS users have nothing to be smug about anyway.
170 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-30 16:52:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
Whatever the real reason or outcome of the AWOL thing, I could not agree more...at least if Mark S got lost in space...even if it was worth a shuttle to find him (groan), Ubuntu would still trundle merrily on.
Some folk may not altogether "like" Ubuntu but they would have to concede it is fairly "safe"as these things go and does not rely on the one man and his wolf scenario.
171 • centos (by hab on 2009-07-30 18:19:09 GMT from Canada)
Seems to be some problems in the centos camp. The main dev, who apparently controls the finances as well, is MIA. Info here: http://www.centos.org/
Kinda makes a good reason to have more than one person in charge!
172 • @166 (by Eyes-Only on 2009-07-30 19:03:53 GMT from United States)
Sorry, but I, too, have to agree with Sean, forest, and the rest here in support for Tom's posting. He *did* in fact touch upon many topics in that post that concern *many* of our individual interests - especially since Tom likewise happens to _know_ many of us here on a personal level.
There were several items he brought out in his post that were of interest to me, yet the one that I find perhaps equally fascinating is the point Tom raised about Linux, operating systems, hardware, and technology in Japan.
The man has a good, solid, curious mind, a keen intellect, a thrist for knowledge, and Tom has come extremely far in a relatively short time in his "Linux Walk". Another thing I really appreciate about the man is the fact that he's *always* so willing to jump in and help no matter what, to share the knowledge he's worked hard to obtain - never looking "down his nose" at the person, and always giving them the pat on the back with the assurance of, "You can do it!" - and the first to hand out meritous praise when the person has accomplished the task at hand.
Cheers Tom! You keep up the fab work mate! Don't allow anyone to pull you down.
173 • CentOS (by Landor on 2009-07-30 19:30:44 GMT from Canada)
Sadly, and I'm sure most people will come to the same instant thought, misuse, or mishandling of funds comes to mind. There's tons of other possibilities too, of course. With their statement regarding a continual request of the financial state, it's foremost in my mind at the least.
I agree that most projects (especially of this nature) need to ensure that the power is not wielded by one sceptre.
Whatever the case, I don't doubt CentOS on an actual administration level for their project is going to be sailing some rough seas until all is ironed out.
Let's just hope my foremost conclusion does not hold true. Something like that could have a domino effect in our community and have other projects scrambling to take measures to guarantee the same won't happen. Which of course could lead to a lot of in-fighting.
Keep your stick on the ice...
174 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-30 19:38:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref Tom's post...possibly I have lost the plot...but I was agreeing that Tom was shabbily treated by the comment in #166...and supported Nobody Important's assertion, in #167...and by association Sean's as well, in #168.
I went to the extent of saying I had gone so far as to copy his link to my MS using mates, viz "Bliss".
Tom WAS insulted to my mind, and it was not the first time either...but, it seems that the differences in "English" expression, can and do cause problems...without meaning to in the slightest.
175 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-30 19:50:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
Oops, transpose the comment numbers, blush.
176 • Wow (by Tom on 2009-07-30 20:06:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thanks folks :) I wasn't planning on taking an encore *bows*
It's just taken me ages to catch up on Dww articles this week and all the posts so i wanted to get my thoughts out there fast before the week ended! I'm kinda feeling sorry for Anthony now.
I do find the Bliss virus story hilarious, it's dev apologising for only getting it to beta stage rofls, imagine the bug-reports - "Hey Alan i couldn't get your virus to infect my ... Please help" (was the dev an Alan?)
I've only got about 2 friends in Japan and neither fit the stereotype (typical huh?). One is a IM in Chess and she might not even notice which OS as long as she could play online and the other is very dedicated to linux anyway. I don't think either are really in touch with mainstream Japanese culture (old, new or other) so i'm curious.
Anyway, thanks all :)) but take it easy on Anthony
177 • @160 - Michael tinkering "In a few weeks" (by Miq on 2009-07-30 20:43:06 GMT from Sweden)
Hi Michael! Not to sound as a complete prick, especially since I lauded you in my previous comment about you, and since we share given name, but seriously, the whole point of your post is about it being a series of installments about testing different Linuxen beasts. I was looking forward to the NEXT DistroWatch to read about you having tested a few more, perhaps three to five different. When you're saying you'll get back on it in a few weeks or so then you've lost grip about what you're doing and what your audience (which you now have!) is waiting for and expecting!
So you should really publish at least one more evaluation per week. Given that you already have a baseline, they don't have to be as exhaustive as your first instalment, but they really need to be there. And again, probably one distro per instalment is too little, you need to cover a few, and contrast them, for it to be interesting and worthwhile both in the short run and over time.
I'm sure I'll attract some flak for admonishing you like this, but that's why I'm wearing these pretty kevlar tights.
178 • Variety & space (by Tom on 2009-07-30 21:50:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
I enjoyed the feature article too and am looking forwards to the next one but i enjoy a bit of variety so perhaps an article about something different or from someone different this next week Miq? Are those tights as cool as this shirt?
179 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-07-30 22:03:08 GMT from Brazil)
espeak on the Terminal:
espeak [paste the text here]
You can choose voices and such, but you may end alternating between tiring your eyes and tiring your ears :·)
180 • @178 - Articles <-- notice plural (by Miq on 2009-07-30 22:10:21 GMT from Sweden)
Over the years that DWW has run, there has been many occasions where more than one article has been published.
181 • Hate?! (by Anon on 2009-07-31 03:11:06 GMT from Norway)
#127 - Nobody Important on 2009-07-29 02:54:44 GMT from United States), wrote:
"Not just for the above two: Wherever do you see hate for Arch and the users that use it? Wolvix? Anything?"
Why are you referring to my post - #123?
I have not used the word "hate". I never use it.
For the record: I don't "hate" any version of any OS. Kindly refrain from associating my posts with such innuendo!
182 • @181 (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-31 03:45:46 GMT from United States)
When I said, "Not just for the above two," I meant, "Not for the two comments I'm responding to."
You see? There were a few comments that were mildly related to yours but started ranting about how us "noobs" all "hate" the Linux "elite" - and that's not true. I had to add that into my comment.
183 • WOW! (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-31 03:54:24 GMT from United States)
Debian is just humming along with news!
Aside from "the Release Team has additionally decided to revisit its decision on December 2009 as the proposed freeze date. A new timeline will be announced by the Debian Release Team in early September" just so I can gloat and say, "haha I called it" I'll just spare you all my quoting skills and allow you to read it yourself.
tl;dr version: in Debian 6.0 they hope to have a faster boot, FreeBSD kernel support, better package installation QA, multi-arch improvements, preparation for possible new package formats, and other geeky fun stuff.
184 • Baddish news...then very good news... (by forest on 2009-07-31 04:01:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
More on Centos, for those still interested...
The sky is no longer the limit, Nasa is up for this:
And then there's this, nearer to the ground:
Steve B must be getting just a tad concerned about the last two...and, plenty of links to keep him awake at night, see this last one, ref business users:
185 • @182 (by Anon on 2009-07-31 04:55:58 GMT from Norway)
Nobody Important on 2009-07-31 03:45:46 GMT from United States) wrote:
"When I said, "Not just for the above two," I meant, "Not for the two comments I'm responding to." "
OK - I read that to mean the two referenced, plus unnamed others. I still do, but that may be my deplorable command of English... ;)
Anyway - sorry for the somewhat harsh response; I should have used a milder manner.
As for the rest of your post, I concur entirely.
186 • Priorities guys - CentOS, Debia, then..elitism (by Sertse on 2009-07-31 05:26:05 GMT from Australia)
By order of actual importance, if we're enlightened DWWer rather than pursuing our personal vendettas :P
CentOS: wow, WOW. I'm speechless. As I actually same that by not posting a wall of text. :)
Debian: Debian is NOT switching to time based releases.**Releases** are still to be done "when it's ready". The main change is that it is switching to time based **Freezes**. This is where apps are not updated unless necessary and focus is turned to fixing bugs etc.
Read: http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/07/29/debian-is-not-switching-to-time-based-releases/ from Matt Zimmerman, which many might know as one of the heads devs in Canonical...
187 • @184 - Summaries plez (by Miq on 2009-07-31 09:08:56 GMT from Sweden)
Forest, nice of you to drop a bunch of seemingly random links, which I have as a policy never to click through. If you want people to read what you link to, do everyone (yes, speaking for everyone here) a favour and provide a short summary or description so I know if I might be interested in it. No, "closer to the ground" does not qualify.
188 • grub2 (by Tom on 2009-07-31 09:21:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
I've just heard that Debian uses grub2 already but that ubuntu is still on grub1! I thought the plan was to rename grub as grub-legacy and then rename grub2 as grub thus making a seamless transition for most people. Now i've heard that the grub2 team want a lot of beta testers to make sure that grub2 works on a large enough range of machines? Hasn't grub2 been around for about 6 (million) years or is that an exaggeration?
I could understand people being so extremely careful if *all* the gnu&linux distros moving from the linux kernel to the hurd kernel or something like that but given that the old grub would still be available as grub-legacy i really think they should *rush* this change through?
Anyway, so Debian is more advanced than Ubuntu :)))
189 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-31 09:30:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
You can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink, Miq, read them or not, it's your choice...
Now try this, and as a one off concession, a good reason to avoid the "elite" tag:
190 • links (by Tom on 2009-07-31 09:40:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
I thought Forest's links were fine although i thought the first distro in space was probably something on an early Russian trip although i heard that the Russian didn't want to bloat their spacecraft with unnecessary comfort-zone luxuries such as expensive computers or tricky technical features that could just add extra things to go wrong. Also Mark Shuttleworth seems to pop up there every now and then so i'd be surprised if there wasn't something linuxy up there with him (again the Russian's leading the way).
This CentOs tragedy is awesome. Presumably the huge servers that run it could easily switch to RedHat? Dual-boot between RedHat and CentOs for a while until ready? The scale of all this is beyond belief (to me). There are many reasons for someone to 'disappear' for a while, i just hope he's alright and if it's something to do with money that he's able to forgive himself and fess up to whatever's gone wrong - if it is about that which somehow seems doubtful.
191 • No subject (by Miq on 2009-07-31 09:42:15 GMT from Sweden)
forest, the horse may be more willing to drink if you do not blindfold and try to dazzle him with gimpy witticism first.
192 • No subject (by Miq on 2009-07-31 09:44:36 GMT from Sweden)
Tom, it isn't about the quality of the articles linked to, it is about the way they're given. Even though you might be happy to click every link someone randomly drops your way, I prefer knowing what the other person wants me to read.
Anyway, that's enough about that. Back to talking distros.
193 • mis-info (by Tom on 2009-07-31 09:51:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
How can reporters get away with spreading mis-information like this "...disagreements can "fork" ... users must choose among different incompatible versions of a project"
194 • Tom, 193 (by Untitled on 2009-07-31 10:46:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sorry, I didn't really find anything wrong with that sentence, but I might have missed something.
When KDE 4 first came out there were many unhappy users and some of them suggested to fork the KDE 3.5 and continue developing it. Doing that would actually create two incompatible KDEs and KDE users would have to choose which one to follow.
It's the same with Debian and Ubuntu. One derives from the other but users of either one can't just pick and mix packages from whichever one they feel like. Some (probably most) packages will work but not all and you'll be running the risk of breaking your system.
Have I misunderstood anything in the text or we disagreeing, in which case we shall have to bitch about each other for a few posts.
195 • unsure (by Tom on 2009-07-31 10:57:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
I was asking because i don't know. I don't really see KDE3 and 4 as being incompatible because even if a KDE3 package doesn't work in KDE4 then it's easy to get the KDE4 version isn't it? Even if you do manage to 'break your system' then it's pretty easy to fix? Sorry this isn't a rant or slanging match it's just me asking because i don't know but my impression is that "incompatible" doesn't suit the OpenSource or FreeSotware world half as much as it suits proprietary stuff?
196 • Open Source compatability (by Untitled on 2009-07-31 11:32:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
I guess it first depends on your definition of "compatible" but that's semantics. I think that if you replace the word compatible with seamless you will get the idea.
Most of us here are home users and we don't mind a little bit of headache now and then (and some people here seem to enjoy it, actually), but CentOs is aimed at the server market which in which one person has to maintain X servers for living and all they want to do is go home early, have dinner and watch television.
If CentOs developers forks it and make a new distro, call it TencOs, those sysadmins above have to make a decision:
1. Continue using CentOs -- risky, what if that guy never shows up again, you get no more security patches and the likes.
2. Install TencOs from scratch -- what a headache you're going to have.
3. Reconfigure your CentOs to work with TencOs (e.g. changing the the repositories) -- it will create more work for you (hence missing Holyoaks, your favourite show on television) and has some risk involved -- might work like a charm, or might not (which means you miss Coronation St. as well!).
I assume that for these people compatible does not mean "choosing one over the other" but "making one work with the other without me having a nervous breakdown by the time Newsnight begins".
197 • Me again (by Untitled on 2009-07-31 11:37:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sorry, just thought about something else, Tom.
Think about Caitlyn Martin. Last week she spent hours setting up CentOs on her netbook and writing a feature article about it. Think how pissed off she probably will be if next week CentOs dies and she has to start the whole thing from scratch with a new distribution!
198 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-31 11:49:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sorry Miq, I cannot resist this, but goodness only knows I have tried and fought with my conscience...for seconds...but...(even) I cannot blindfold a horse and then dazzle him with gimpy witticism all at the same time. (wotever gimpy means in this context).
Anyway, consider...how long does it take to click a link...page loads...you scan banner...thought process...interested or not interested...read or not read...move on, job done either way.
Now, IF you had to read a brief one line intro, ponder the meaning, then decide to follow link, then GOTO the above sequence...you can now see I have saved you, over a year, probably a minute of your valuable time. I care about you guys.
199 • Scientific Linux is also a good RHEL clone... (by Caraibes on 2009-07-31 11:55:08 GMT from Dominican Republic)
If CentOS disappears, folks can always use Scientific Linux, as it is also a good RHEL clone... Startcom Linux also qualifies...
200 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-31 12:04:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
Re Caitlyn on CentOS...I dunno about her being pee'd off...probably saved her a lot of work.
Anyway, found this when I was looking up about CentOS being aimed at the server market:
201 • Lied to the horse Re #189 (by Rex on 2009-07-31 13:02:48 GMT from United States)
Had nothing to do with why you don't want to be one of the elite. The exact opposite in a sense actually since Team Elite is doing good things it appears!
202 • CentOS (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-31 13:56:27 GMT from United States)
Just so you are aware:
CentOS has been functioning without this MIA lead project developer for at least a year. There is no chance of CentOS leaving; if anything, the developers will simply rename the project if the lead does not show up.
The lead project developer owns the domain "centos.org" as well as the financial burden of the project, and all the sponsorships and donations with it. CentOS cannot function unless he returns or he gives the job to someone else. As it stands, he's been gone for a year or so.
The whole thing is being blown rather out of proportion. CentOS will not die; at the LEAST, it will be re-branded.
203 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-31 14:15:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
But hardly legal...see:
Although I could not disagree, morally of course, that they exposed a weakness, unless it was bait to catch iffy characters...who could say?
CentOS...ref #196...somebody suggested "TencOS", I can live with that.
And if something better comes from the whole sorry episode, then it's a win:win situation...the dead wood did the Darwin thing and the new shoots thrived.
204 • Love-Hate (by bugoy on 2009-07-31 14:35:50 GMT from Philippines)
Some people may hate Linux and love Windows or vice versa. But I love them both. I love Linux because it just works and works and works. My Ubuntu box has been running for almost a year now without any glitch. I even forgot what version it was. I love Windows because with all its viruses, malwares and BSOD it brings food to the table (I fix computers).
205 • re: 202, 203, 204 (by Caraibes on 2009-07-31 15:55:14 GMT from Dominican Republic)
>I love Windows because with all its viruses, malwares and BSOD it brings food to the table (I fix computers).
Same here !!!!! :o)
Now as of the CentOS mess, I believe all CentOS devs should simply join Scientific Linux... That would make it stronger...
206 • running (by Tom on 2009-07-31 16:10:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
Nicely said bugoy :)
I run Ubuntu and Wolvix - but i also have Windows which can't truly be said to 'run'; crawl, hobble slowly perhaps or on a good day maybe just a pronounced limp. My favourite OS is probably Vista - it's truly hilarious and i'm very glad i've dodged out of having to use it myself ;)
@ Nobody Important, i agree about this CentOS 'problem' except i think you meant "worst case" rather than "least". I had been assuming the worst case was a lot worse - that some people would 'have' to switch to another OS but even that hardly seems too awful, certainly not as bad as is being portrayed. I agree with Anon that it would be unlikely to be stress free and seamless - perhaps a few late nights and extra work for a few people but not impossible and i would guess that in a lot of cases it could be done without any down-time at all? Anyway, it's irrelevant when CentOs is only likely to have a name change at worst.
As my dad always says "You can lead a horse to water but is a bear catholic?"
207 • CentOS, summaries and Latin (by Miq on 2009-07-31 20:28:33 GMT from Sweden)
About CentOS: There might even be some good coming from this. Last two times I installed CentOS (a year and a half ago and a month ago) the repos were excruciatingly slow. Perhaps with new leadership this will change. With Internet repos a crucial aspect of Linux management, this is increasingly important.
#208 by Sean: "I imagine that a person being very care what they clicks on, will stand a better chance of not getting an infestation on their PC. However, think of a business. People love passing around jokes through e-mail. Every person opening that e-mail in Outlook has the potential of getting infested."
Would you mind telling forest that? Forest, your time defence is flawed: first, if it takes some time being careful, that time is saved by not having to clean up messes. Secondly, if I do not click your links I will not waste time reading the articles. If I had some inkling what they were about I might on the other hand be willing to spend the time. Also, you seem to assume that I trust you and your links. That is stupid on the Internet. However, another thing even more stupid on the Internet is trying to talk sense to people...
@210, about Latin: Tom, Latin grammar and plural forms are much, much more complicated that that. Take a introductory course at a university: it is fun and will make you a vastly better user of languages in all levels.
208 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-31 23:46:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref #218...bit in response to my earlier post #198.
Miq, by your reasoning I could have prefaced my link by anything vaguely plausible, but in reality this short description could have been just a cunning ploy to lure you, or anyone...into thinking it was a bona fide link, hence tricking you into a nest of nasties.
Now, nobody, AFAIK, has had any problems with my links, or, come to that, anyone else's links. Strangely enough, even when folk are "in dispute" with another, everyone takes it on trust that "a" link, to prove or disprove an argument, (in the mathematical sense), is kosher, so to speak.
It does indeed all comes down to trust in the end. As an example of this look at #117 or indeed #165...so to couch my post in the current phraseology of that well known British social observer...Ali G...you is not dissing me cos i is from UK?
209 • CentOS issue resolved (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-08-03 03:47:00 GMT from United States)
In case y'all haven't read the update on the front page of the centos.org website it's good news. The devs seem to have resolved their issues and all is moving forward again. I'm fairly certain the project will continue without interruption.
What concerns me more is how slow CentOS has been to provide patches. Red Hat had their Firefox 3.0.12 package out the same day Mozilla released the new version. Scientific Linux (another RHEL clone) had it out within 24 hours, which seems quite acceptable to me. It took CentOS a solid week.
RIght now I believe I'm going to recommend Scientific Linux rather than CentOS when someone needs an enterprise grade distro without a license fee.
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