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1 • Wolvix (by Tom on 2009-06-29 09:43:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
So no Wolvix stand at the conference either then even tho they both rock ;)
Is LinuxTag is an annual event with this having been the first one ever? It seems to have been very worthwhile going, thanks for the article and all Ladislav :)
2 • why a user prefers Slackware over Ubuntu. (by Redy on 2009-06-29 09:51:56 GMT from Indonesia)
yes, i agree..
because i'm learning Slackware on my first met with Linux. My first slackware is version 8.x, then i tried RedHat and Mandrake, it makes me confused about how to install packages, because it needs a lot of dependencies.... then still fallin love with slackware... and his "grandchildren" :-)
3 • Moblin and UNR (by Marc on 2009-06-29 10:10:31 GMT from Canada)
Lately, hardly any news of a new release from these distro's.
Anyone has something, my Wind is waiting ...
4 • Linux Tag (by Gene Venable on 2009-06-29 10:10:52 GMT from United States)
Nice article on Linux Tag; I want something like it in the Los Angeles area soon!
5 • games, multimedia & other *nix's (by Tom on 2009-06-29 10:51:59 GMT from United Kingdom)
Superb to see these were decently represented at LinuxTag. We need to get really serious about games and multimedia if we want to see linux taken seriously. Is there anything as good as DistroWatch for multimedia apps? Google didn't reveal much.
6 • Fedora 11? KDE4? (by KenP on 2009-06-29 10:58:50 GMT from United States)
"A long-winded explanation followed, but in the end, the conclusion was simple - it is just not possible to create a distribution that is both a leader in innovation and extremely stable at the same time."
Quite like KDE4, I must say. KDE4 has dared to innovate and has gone through almost 3 iterations to get to a stable and everyday usable state.
Also, I believe time will prove that disruption in status quo for KDE will result in a fresher, cleaner and modern desktop environment. I also hear that GNOME 3.0 is taking similar steps -- and I don't believe it can go from 2.x to 3.0 incrementally. Lots of things will have to break and rebuilt. That's the nature of open-source and there's nothing to lament or criticise there.
7 • Fedora answer (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 11:04:04 GMT from Canada)
"it is just not possible to create a distribution that is both a leader in innovation and extremely stable at the same time"
Did they look at Archlinux ?
8 • Re:7 (by sertse on 2009-06-29 11:21:27 GMT from Australia)
Arch isn't a leader in innovation. It's a good packager of the innovations as soon as it's made, but Fedora makes those innovations. Fedora with it's relationship with RH is arguably come of the largest sole contributors to actual upstream Linux development. Arch doesn't do that.
9 • LinuxTag (by Bo on 2009-06-29 11:33:04 GMT from United States)
Very nice recap of the conference. Hey, I actually made it all the way through an article on DW! Is CentOS trying to be like Ubuntu with the user friendly desktop or am I missing something? Is their desktop environment meant more for the business server/desktop user scenario? I recently tried Ubuntu with the KDE 4 desktop and I was really impressed.
10 • SlackWare to learn GNU/Linux (by Mahmoud Slamah on 2009-06-29 12:16:49 GMT from Egypt)
:) Slackware is a distribution for advanced users or at least those willing to learn.
Slackware is suitable for anyone want to learn GNU/Linux
سلاكوير مناسب جدا لأى شخص يريد أن يتعلم جنو- لينوكس كما ينبغى
Get Slackware book from http://www.slackbook.org/
Learn and enjoy :)
11 • Comments (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-29 12:30:17 GMT from United States)
Good DWW. I chuckled more than once at the main story.
I'm looking into KDE 4. What distro has the best implementation of 4.2?
Never had much interest is Slackware. I prefer operating systems that get out of my way. Call me lazy or unwilling to learn - I like it when Ubuntu or Fedora manages things for me.
CentOS' comments were interesting. Their kernel and underlying technology is older than most, but if it works then I suppose it'd be the perfect stable platform.
12 • LinuxTag (by Jesse on 2009-06-29 13:15:16 GMT from United States)
Great piece on LinuxTag. Sounds like a lot of fun and a chance to meet the people behind the scenes.
Would love to see an event like this near my own home town.
There are a couple of places in the article where the word "price" appears instead of "prize", for what it's worth.
Yet again, another excellent DWW.
13 • #11 (by Bo on 2009-06-29 13:22:24 GMT from United States)
You could try Kubuntu which comes with KDE as the window manager. I prefer to install Ubuntu and then install the Kubuntu package. This way you get to try out Gnome and KDE. I just converted a Vista user over to Linux this way. He was blown away by the difference in performance.
14 • LinuxTag & Slackware (by ZBREAKER on 2009-06-29 13:58:28 GMT from United States)
Another tasty issue...gives my week a good start. Indeed LinuxTag
sounds like a great time was had by all. Would love to attend a similar event in the near future in my area.
Also, been a happy Slackware user for some months now. It's really pretty cool, and the "lack of dependancy tracking" thing has not been a problem....it's actually pretty simple.
15 • CentOS 5.x on the desktop (by Caraibes on 2009-06-29 14:31:46 GMT from Dominican Republic)
I agree more and more about CentOS 5.x on the desktop. I am running it now, and enjoy it... There are still a bit of improvements needed to make it "user friendly", but it is a really stable distro "for grown-ups", and it is supported until 2014 !!!!
I wish there would be only 1 third party repo with everything inside, but who knows ? It might happen...
So far, here are some good CentOS links:
http://dag.wieers.com/blog/are-there-too-few-people-who-understand-desktop-linux
http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3673966
http://elrepo.org/tiki/tiki-index.php
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL
http://www.howtoforge.com/installation-guide-centos5.1-desktop
https://rpmrepo.org/RPMforge
16 • More CentOS links... (by Caraibes on 2009-06-29 14:34:35 GMT from Dominican Republic)
-How could I forget those links ?
http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/05/20/is-rhel5-the-new-xp/
http://odiecolon.lastdot.org/
http://www.microlinux.fr/
17 • RE: 6 • Fedora 11? KDE4? (by KenP (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 14:46:49 GMT from United States)
Of course it's possible to create a distribution that is both a leader in innovation and stable at the same time. You just have to obey to the basic QA principles. What do you do with the latest-and-greatest cars, airliners, etc.? Are you rushing them on the market with minimal testing only? I mean, now you launch Boeing 787, then 6 months later you launch Boeing 787.1?
As for KDE4, GNOME3 and "Lots of things will have to break and rebuilt"... Why do you people like BREAKAGE as a necessary sign of the progress?!
OK, within 3 days I'll have my old IP back, so I'll be banned from posting here...
18 • re#17 breakage (by hab on 2009-06-29 15:16:53 GMT from Canada)
Turn that around and maybe you can understand that breakage comes from progress. It is not something "we people" strive for. It is the result of advance. No pain, no gain!
Innovation vs stability sounds like a saw off to me! Trade some of one for the other. I doubt that you can have the best of both!
cheers
19 • Slackware (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-06-29 15:17:11 GMT from United States)
"Give a man Ubuntu, and he'll learn Ubuntu. Give a man SUSE, and he'll learn SUSE. But give a man Slackware, and he'll learn Linux."
This is a nice promo line for Slackware but it never has been true. Any Linux systems administrator worth their salt works at the command line and learns how things work regardless of if they run SUSE or Red Hat or Ubuntu. In addition, Slackware does things differently than other Linux distros so learning the Slackware way doesn't always help. For example, Slackware uses BSD style init scripts. That's fine but the majority of major distros and most smaller ones as well use System V style init scripts. I can give lots of other examples but I think this makes the point well enough.
Slackware forces you to get under the hood since, in many cases, that's the only way to configure things. As such it really is a good learning tool. To claim that you can't learn equally well with another distro seems silly to me. What Slackware does is take away a lot of the choice about learning.
20 • stable (by Tom on 2009-06-29 15:21:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
@ 17 If you want stability then don't test drive the latest test versions, definitely steer away from alpha and beta releases - oh, but then you wont be seeing the latest innovations. "rushing onto the market with minimal testing" err, you seem confused - alpha & beta releases are for testing purposes, they are released so that they can be tested. Without being released how could anyone test them? In the case of an aircraft 'innovative' things included in a work aeroplane might be several decades old already, but just not have been used by the general public. So it's a question of what do you mean by 'release' and also what does 'innovative' mean to you?
21 • Fedora 11 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 15:34:31 GMT from United States)
Tell them to fix the #$*&%@ installer.
22 • @20 cutting edge (by Jesse on 2009-06-29 15:44:10 GMT from United States)
I actually agree with where #17 is coming from. Fedora is constantly putting out new technology and trying new things, which is great. However, they also keep breaking things and reinventing the wheel.
Take a look at PulseAudio, as a prime example. Great idea, but completely borks sound on a lot of computers. This is basic sound. It should be very simple to build on an already working sound system, such as oss or alsa.
Same for package management, Fedora went through several generations where they kept replacing the GUI package manager. They've been through Synaptic, Pirut, Pup (I think it was called) to the fairly simplistic GUI they use now.
My point is, that some of what they do is great, SELinux for example, but a lot of it is ripping out basic functionality and replacing it with new things which don't work as well. It would be nice if they kept things that worked and improved on them rather than throwing them out the window and starting from scratch.
To borrow a car example, you don't need to re-invent the wheel in order to build a better transmission.
23 • No subject (by Godhack on 2009-06-29 15:53:18 GMT from Sweden)
Ah stap it. Aircraft beta is called prototype 1 unit build and brave souls even test it of course for huge money. Aircraft.1 every 6 months is also real thing. Old parts removed and new better ones added. Just name changing is not in tradition, but sometimes one letter is added. Ex. P51D really means .4.
24 • @11 - Best KDE4.2 Implementation (by Miq on 2009-06-29 16:08:45 GMT from Sweden)
I'd direct you to check out Mandriva, OpenSUSE and Fedora 11, in that order. Mandriva and OpenSUSE in particular have rock-solid, well-integrated and expertly updated (back-porting development-branch fixes) KDE4 libs.
I'd personally recommend against Kubuntu, it isn't receiving the love it should and from reading fora seems to have problematic tendencies. You could however try Sabayon's KDE4 spin, or if you want a Debian-derivative check out MintLinux' homepage: their KDE4 RC is in SVN and will be released any day now. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes one of the premier KDE4 distros.
25 • Re: innovation stability bah bah bah (by Sertse on 2009-06-29 16:16:35 GMT from Australia)
Post 20 is correct, the issue is only what one means by releases. We're only debating this because we know of releases every 6 months. Take Debian for example. Debian Etch is innovative compared to Sarge, and Lenny compared to Etch. They are all also remarkably stable. They take years between releases though.
Yet on the other hand, you also can try out any newly created tech by going onto the testing and unstable branches. However, they aren't releases.
26 • re#22 what IS the paradigm? (by hab on 2009-06-29 16:24:33 GMT from Canada)
If you want ultimate stability run debian stable. Anything away from it gives you a sliding scale of reliability and stability. I think fedora is aimed at a less than typical linux audience.
I've watched linux for long enough to know that if i got my knickers in a knot over every something broken or not working properly i'd be experiencing a fair bit of self inflicted pain! We currently appear to be in a phase of desktop upheaval and paradigm shifting.
So what? Linux has been this way many times before. Just perhaps in visibly less obvious areas than in the desktop arena.
ciao
27 • Fedora 12 (by bodhi.zazen on 2009-06-29 16:46:59 GMT from United States)
LOL at #21, the installer works fine.
The link you listed above to Features in F12 links to F11.
The link to F12 features is here :
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/12/FeatureList
And I counted 9 on that page (although I did not look any further).
28 • Debian Lenny updated (by jm at 2009-06-29 17:09:26 GMT from United States)
http://debian.org/News/2009/20090627
Anyone noticed? It works so well you might not. debian/rules!
29 • #1 (by Kamil Drakker on 2009-06-29 17:26:17 GMT from United States)
Nice job getting Wolvix in there at number one again this week Tom. I guess if It isn't first on the DW charts yet at least it's been first in the comments. When it comes to Slackware, Wolvix is the best.
30 • Stable versus cutting edge - and something cutting edge that works (by it-can-be-done on 2009-06-29 17:52:39 GMT from United States)
I found the comments about stability and cutting edge software to be interesting. Generally speaking, I have had a good regard for the overall efforts on the Fedora project, but I have to say that I was quite disappointed at the end result. I had used several previous versions very well, and I was able to use the Live versions of the current release, even going back as far as the Alpha release, but if there was a way to install them on my hardware, that way was quite elusive, and I finally gave up, since Fedora 10 works fine and lots of other distros work for me.
I tried to provide feedback in the forum and a couple of bug reports for different hardware, but apparently they either missed or did not make it to the right place; I did not see fixes in the final release - at least for my configurations.
Regarding QA and overall stability, I agree that the Debian project sets the standard by which others should measure themselves. Debian Stable takes defects and stability so seriously that it is arguably one of the most stable systems of any kind that you can get. However, even Debian Sid - though quite volatile in the frequency of changes, still does quite well overall. Occasionally packaging versions will mismatch - that is one of the reasons it is called unstable - but they are quickly fixed. Debian Testing is an excellent balance between Stable and Unstable (Sid).
To me, sidux is a superb example of creating a way to manage those instabilities. The team has a vigilant QA staff who are constantly scouring the changes for bugs, version mismatches, and so forth, and they offer multiple optional tools for alerting you and helping you to manage instabilities, and they even have an optional smxi tool, written by one of their developers, h2, not just for sidux, but for other Debian derivatives as well.
Therefore, if sidux can manage the crazy changes going on and still manage to keep things operational, I would challenge the Fedora project to do the same. IT can be done.
31 • SLACKWARE_NOOB (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 18:00:33 GMT from United States)
@Catlyn
Slackware forces you to get under the hood since, in many cases, that's the only way to configure things. As such it really is a good learning tool. To claim that you can't learn equally well with another distro seems silly to me. What Slackware does is take away a lot of the choice about learning.
NOT TRUE!
I installed my slackware without doing anything difficult, I used Gparted Live CD, made the partitions, then ran the ncurses based installer it found the partitions and it installed nicely into an ext3 partition I made for it. I did not have to configure anything and yes it uses /etc/rc.d/ scripts copied from BSD land, but it works, and you don't have to chkconfig service off, or chkconfig service --add, you make your program not execute by runnning chmod -x /etc/rc.d/rc.service and that service will not run. Slackware is pristine, is nice and to the point. You are like a little kid wanting your mommy and your daddy to do everything for you. I am sorry, but with Slackware you are on your own my child.
32 • @29 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 18:03:03 GMT from United States)
NOT TRUE,
WOLVIX is not THE BEST. The BEST IS SLAX!!! all the others leach off Tomas Matejicek's Linux Live Scripts. He is the one and true inventor of Slackware Live CD's. Point Made. Your wolvix originated and copied from Slax. Where would he be without Tomas' and his linux live scripts?
33 • @32 (by Kamil on 2009-06-29 18:13:57 GMT from United States)
Whatever dude. Use Slax if that's what floats your boat. Wolvix puts it all together and presents it in a manner that is very pleasant. Props to Tomas and Patrick, but Wolvix is still the best (you just can't argue with a fanboy).
34 • Thanks for the DW (by Claus Futtrup on 2009-06-29 18:24:53 GMT from Denmark)
A great Distrowatch Weekly. Thanks.
Claus
Zenwalker
35 • re#33 (by hab on 2009-06-29 18:26:34 GMT from Canada)
And the purpose of all this distro 'fawnboism' is..................?
ciao
36 • #30 smxi and sidux (by anticapitalista on 2009-06-29 18:26:59 GMT from Greece)
Just to point out that h2 is not a sidux dev and the sidux devs do not support smxi on sidux.
Apart from that, yes sidux does control Sid very well.
37 • #31 - An example of where Slackware forces you under the hood (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 18:44:43 GMT from United States)
Screaming NOT TRUE doesn't something false. Claiming that somehow I am not an adult but rather a dependent because I happen to point out that Slackware is neither easy nor straightforward is a meaningless personal attack.
Let's give you a few examples of where Slackware is demonstratively more difficult than other distros.
Let's say you work in a multilingual office or live in a multilingual home and want to be able to change your language and locale. I wrote a tutorial on how to do that in Slackware: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/01/making-slackware-and-derivativ.html
Makes for a full length article. In every other major distro it's point, click, done. If you need to switch back and forth in (and I do) you have to script the process I describe. None is provided for you. How does that qualify as nice, simple configuration?
Another example: you work for a mid-sized or larger company and you decide to install Slackware as your standard. Now you want to enable more than one access method. In Arch Linux or Gentoo or Debian or SUSE you have PAM enabled. No big deal. Not so on Slackware. Here is the Wiki page with the instructions on how to make it work: http://www.installationwiki.org/PAM Nice and simple, eh? Not so much.
Oh, and there are other distros aimed squarely at advanced users: Arch Linux, Gentoo, CRUX, etc... All have reasonable package management tools that resolve dependency issues. Even among "advanced" distros Slackware is unique in not providing what I consider to be very basic functionality. For people who like to
keep up with the latest version of their favorite apps or try out new things frequently this represents major additional work.
Would you like another dozen or two examples? I'd be happy to provide them.
Oh, and what on earth do you mean by "Slackware is pristine". How are any of the other distros I named contaminated?
38 • The last comment was mine (by Cailtyn Martin on 2009-06-29 18:45:54 GMT from United States)
My apologies -- the last comment was mine. I guess I hit Submit a bit too fast. I just am a bit fed up with fanbois of the sort I was responding to.
39 • Mint and KDE (by Becky on 2009-06-29 18:57:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
I tried the previous version of Mint - v6 - as the KDE package. It was rock solid and I never had a moments trouble with it.
At the moment, I've got the 64 bit version of Mint 7 running.... and it still feels slower than it should. I don't know why - but hey, skype works a treat with my internal webcam (big HP multimedia laptop) so I can't complain too much. I shall be looking out for the full release of KDE for Mint 7 though - I've always thought that Gnome is ok for letting people test the waters... but KDE is much closer to what I need for my work!
PS - also agree with the comment about Mandriva and OpenSUSE versions of KDE. I've tried them both - and they're both nice, solid and deliver the goods!
40 • Was Knoppix represented at LinuxTag '09? (by eco2geek on 2009-06-29 19:30:45 GMT from United States)
One unanswered question I had about LinuxTag is whether Klaus Knopper was there and when and if Knoppix 6.1 is to be released. This "father of live CDs" seems to have disappeared off the radar screen for some reason.
I just created a partition to install and try out Vector Linux 6.0. Good stuff (and whoever made a GTK theme (?) to make xfce look like KDE 4 did a great job :-).
41 • @37 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 19:34:21 GMT from United States)
Yes I don't do the things you suggested, for that I could use another distro and do that. But at home on my own machine and when I don't need the updates, the latest and best stuff, I can use Slackware and be contempt. There are slackbuilds to help me get the latest programs if I wanted them, there is also slapt get, and there are the new ports also for Slackware, so I can get what I need and move on.
Slackware is pristine.
What does this mean, this means that Slackware makes no modifications to programs, It uses defacto KDE no Slackware arangements, it is original no added bloat or signs YOU ARE RUNNING SLACKWARE. You do get also some messages when you are running on the shell, but those are Good I guess.
Why do have against Slackware?
I did not use Slackware before, but Mandrake, but it died and I moved to Slackware. I did not have the drake tools, I did not have this gadget or that gadget, but I have a quality distro that does not ask anything(except what you mentioned and other stuff), but I don't care. It is the only one that runs on my old old old old 1997 machine. The others won't even run. So there you have it Catilyn.
42 • #41 - I have nothing against Slackware (by Cailtyn Martin on 2009-06-29 19:42:03 GMT from United States)
I have nothing against Slackware. There is no perfect distro. I think it is perfectly legitimate to point out the weaknesses in Slackware as well as the strengths.
"I don't do the things you suggested", like installing or trying software frequently? I think a large percentage of users do. Ditto the other examples I pointed out which are all common things to do. Your answer points to a very myopic view: if you don't do it then it somehow isn't important.
You initially, in bold, shouting letters, told me that what I initially wrote about Slackware isn't true. You haven't been able to back up that point of view. I also suspect I could name a dozen distros that would run just fine on 12 year old gear. some of which might even be a touch faster than Slackware. That doesn't prove anything, does it?
Your "I don't care" sums your position perfectly. You like Slackware. It suits your needs. That's fine and you should keep using it. However, once again, that doesn't mean you can ignore what other people need and proclaim that Slackware is easy for everyone. It just plain isn't.
43 • @42 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 19:51:59 GMT from United States)
There is no perfect distro very true!
This is the part where I said is not TRUE:
What Slackware does is take away a lot of the choice about learning.
Why?? Because you don't have to install Slackware in the first place, you can install Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE, Debian, ...., etc. And you are not taken a choice away. In some ways, on that old old old machine I have only Slax used to run, then I thought about it and said why not, I installed Slackware to it and it is running fine. The other OS that ran on it fine was FreeBSD. I tried to install Ubuntu, it failed. I tried Fedora won't even boot. I tried Mandriva, no Good either, but Mandrake worked? I tried OpenSUSE and it did not run. Yes I checked the sha1sums, the sha256 sums, I checked that the burns were right, but no avail.
I understand the points you made and you could be right/might be right, but it does not take you that right to learn. To say that Slackware is easy for everyone, it is not true and I agree with you here, but once you know how to work with it, it is not that difficult.
/bye
44 • slackware distros (by Tom on 2009-06-29 20:05:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think a lot of people would be surprised how easy slackware distros are. There are some for whom Wolvix wont be perfect along with vector, zenwalk, slax and of course slackware itself. It seems like TinyCore is going to be a bit similar to slackware and arch in that it provides the building blocks for some pretty neat distros but is a bit tricky for a lot of people? It's really great to see how fast TinyCore is progressing, 11Mb is quite little so kudos to Shingledecker!
I'm quite lucky in having reasonably average kit (and a massive hard-drive recently) but multimedia (including sound) seems hugely problematic in linux. I often hear that Vlc is 'better than' mplayer or the other way around but there's seldom any stats to back that up and no multimedia equivalent of DistroWatch.
Really great to see linuX-gamers taking up the other big issue holding linux back but i think they and openArtist are really fighting an uphill battle with little or no support. Kudos to them too :)
45 • The new sidux is available (by Chris H on 2009-06-29 20:30:09 GMT from United States)
The preview version of 2009-02 is available.
Go to mirrors from the sidux web site.
kde lite and xfce lite.
46 • No subject (by Walter Sobchak on 2009-06-29 20:54:19 GMT from Lithuania)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
47 • No subject (by Walter Sobchak on 2009-06-29 21:16:26 GMT from Lithuania)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
48 • No subject (by Walter Sobchak on 2009-06-29 21:20:56 GMT from Lithuania)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
49 • Sidux Aether is out!! (by mika480 on 2009-06-29 21:35:10 GMT from Italy)
The best news so long!
50 • # 43 Don't get upset! (by Barnabyh on 2009-06-29 21:45:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
No reason to argue, to each their own, you're not exactly talking (or writing) to people who don't know their way around the Linux universe here.
Not surprised all these rpm based distros didn't work for you, the corporate big names so to speak. They're all a bit on he heavy side.
Did you try Debian (xfce & lxde desktop) or sidux? Even Lenny with Gnome or KDE should be fine. In terms of resource usage this other oldtimer is almost as lean as Slackware in my experience.
Zenwalk and Vector also, but of course they are based on Slack too, one more than the other though.
Enjoy trying them, or just be happy with your installation, but no need to pester everybody about how great it is. we know it's strenghts and weaknesses. Take care mate.
51 • 46 (by Barnabyh on 2009-06-29 21:48:59 GMT from United Kingdom)
Actually I will try it, read some good things about it, but will probably be disappointed again - just as with Fedora (sorry fed-users, no offence).
52 • Ah (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-29 21:49:02 GMT from United States)
I see the trolls are up and about.
I do like Slackware based distros, if done well. Absolute is one of my favorites, and I have tried a liked Vector Light. Slackware alone, however, is too much work, similar to Arch or Gentoo. The maximum amount of labor I'd put into a distro is setting up Debian.
On a tangential note. I've finally gotten around to trying Unetbootin for real. Very slick. You can be sure I won't be using too many blank CD's after this.
53 • No subject (by Walter Sobchak on 2009-06-29 22:15:50 GMT from Lithuania)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
54 • Fedora 11 (cutting edge) (by BryD on 2009-06-29 22:35:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
The Titanic was cutting edge !, and Fedora is sinking fast as a usable distro they can't even get the installer right.
55 • Trolls (by Pat at 2009-06-29 22:37:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
56 • No subject (by Walter Sobchak on 2009-06-29 22:49:07 GMT from Lithuania)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
57 • trolls (by Barnabyh on 2009-06-29 22:54:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
58 • No subject (by Barnabyh on 2009-06-29 23:00:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
59 • Trolls (by Miq on 2009-06-29 23:01:27 GMT from Sweden)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
60 • No subject (by Walter Sobchak on 2009-06-29 23:12:39 GMT from Lithuania)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
61 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-29 23:17:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
62 • #52 (by Camille Toe on 2009-06-29 23:26:02 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
63 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-06-29 23:29:46 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
64 • Re: CentOS on the desktop (by Sertse on 2009-06-29 23:54:40 GMT from Australia)
I am to forever point to this thread the next time someone says DW is all about Ubuntu.
CentOS on the desktop is interesting. I mentioned it last week and no one cared. :P The CentOS newsletter is running a series of articles on how to setup desktop system with it nicely. The first one is about "enabling multimedia on CentOS" - one of the main demands desktop users have. Check it out: http://wiki.centos.org/Newsletter?highlight=((Newsletter|0902))
Personally I hope CentOS puts more effort into being a possible desktop linux option. There's a huge disconnect between what he enthusiasts want, and people who don't care about computers want, imo.
65 • @64 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-30 00:28:14 GMT from United States)
@64
It is nice that you mention CentOS. A derivative of Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Fedora from previous releases. CentOS looks very nice, but for me, I still prefer Fedora over, I like to test new stuff, even if it breaks. I have multiple machines with Fedora 10, Fedora 11 and Rawhide. If I could get the same rocky ride on CentOS, I might consider taking it for a ride. I know that I could compile a new 2.6.30 kernel on CentOS instead of running an old 2.6.18 from Fedora 6 that now lives on CentOS right? but is a there a repository that has all the latest goodies ala Fedora and bring them in to CentOS? If there is, please post here.
And YES, it is nice to know that other distros besides UBUNTU exist. Even if it is the Wolvix fanboys that come to troll here. And Slackware creator does not really care about what negative things are said about the Slackware distro, he uses the KISS philosophy and the user has all the power and has to take care of his/her system.
There is a huge disconnect indeed. Many people want to have it easy and have all the goodies for free, but they don't want to get their hands dirty and they switch distros because a user does not believe in a certain religious group or does not believe in GOD? This is strange????
66 • #65 (by Yeknori J. on 2009-06-30 00:35:55 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
67 • @66 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-30 00:53:06 GMT from United States)
Sorry, If I offend anyone, but to me The fanboys are annoying regardless if they are Ubuntu Fanboys or Wolvix fanboys. They are just as bad.
Yes I agree with you all Linux distributions should be supported, but just because of some people we can grow to hate Ubuntu and now Wolvix. I have not seen it for a while but because people say it is soooo GOOOOOD for me it is just an invitation to not SEE it. I know of the wolvix creator his nickname was Wolven and I saw him stick with it in Slax forum taking stuff from here and from there and piecing it together. Now his distro is soo GOOOD as the fanboys say. Nah, I donlt belive it.
68 • #67 (by Yeknori J. on 2009-06-30 01:07:27 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
69 • PC-BSD 7.1.1 RC2 (by stuckinoregon on 2009-06-30 02:55:41 GMT from United States)
So far so good. Insanely more responsive than recent releases. Beautiful implementation of KDE as well. Really appears to be well done so far. Look forward to using this one for a bit.
70 • that pesky PulseAudio/mixer nuisance - ref #22 (by gnomic on 2009-06-30 03:48:11 GMT from New Zealand)
Now why exactly is that with PulseAudio - in about 80% of the distros with PA I try sound is actually unusable until I dig around and find a mixer which will produce sufficient output levels, commonly involving a tweak to PCM. The PA mixer or volume control itself appears to be some sort of useless decoration. What's with that? Fedora comes to mind in this regard as a recent example, but there are many others. OK, PulseAudio is new and improved but this aspect seems perverse. Maybe I'm missing something here?
71 • Debian VS Slackware (by Wil Barath on 2009-06-30 06:20:24 GMT from Canada)
It's all about package management, but I promise to surprise you.
I came from PC-DOS, AmigaOS1.3, and Win 3.1, none of which hadany kind of package manager. Windows in particular was DLL Hell.
Moving to an OS with at least a decent directory structure was a pure joy. I tried Slackware 2.0 first, then Debian 1-ish some months later. DSelect was the opposite of DLL Hell. It provided, and forced the installation of, the kitchen sink. My opinion of Debian closely followed that of Andrew Morton... so I went back to Slackware.
The brilliant thing about Slack was that to get anything to work, you had to hack around. First install it, then try to run it, install missing libraries, read the docs and man page, install supporting apps for any extra features... eventually it worked. Once the system was up the way you wanted it the idea of upgrading or reinstalling was like giving up your first born child lol.
Eventually, as the number of packages I wanted to install became huge and the rate of new releases for many of my favourite apps became too much time to manually maintain in Slackware (though compiling and reinstalling many was its own joy) I eventually realised that I could be more productive if I went to a system with regular updates, like SuSE, Debian Sid or Arch Linux. I avoided the RPM distros because they were "like deb without the elegance".
Out of the bunch, I settled for SuSE, which offered a far more mature desktop experience, more apps than even Debian, and most importantly - complete controll over package dependencies. Then SuSE switched to RPM, just in time to avoid the brilliance that was apt-get.
The love affair with SuSE's simplicity of use lasted for a few years, then I tried SimplyMepis on a livecd and promptly replaced my desktop OS with Debian Unstable/Sarge. The availability of apps and the sheer speed of the package management left SuSE 7.2 in the dust.
Of course, Debian's "new" package manager had the same drawbacks as when I used DSelect... it was just more convenient from a network/downloading standpoint.
Here's my final solution:
#!/bin/bash
#
# Script to install a .deb package on a Debian system
# while circumventing the package manager...
#
# Often this is the only way to run a badly-packaged app.
# Other times it just avoids poor dependency choices
# ie depends vlc when mplayer is perfectly capable...
P=${1/_*/}
P=${P/*//}
echo $0: Installing $P without package management:
sudo dpkg -i $1
sudo rm -vf /var/lib/dpkg/info/${P}* &&
sudo dpkg --remove $P &&
echo Success!
72 • 71 (by Wil Barath on 2009-06-30 06:31:18 GMT from Canada)
the second script command should be:
P={P/*//}
In case DW sanitizes it to death again, there should be a backslash immediately following the wildcard...
73 • #71 (by Wil Barath on 2009-06-30 06:41:37 GMT from Canada)
#!/bin/bash
#
# Script to install a .deb package on a Debian system
# while circumventing the package manager...
#
# Often this is the only way to run a badly-packaged app.
# Other times it just avoids poor dependency choices
# ie depends vlc when mplayer is perfectly capable...
P=${1/_*/}
P=${P/*]//} #HTML Entities to the rescue :P
echo $0: Installing $P without package management:
sudo dpkg -i $1
sudo rm -vf /var/lib/dpkg/info/${P}* &&
sudo dpkg --remove $P &&
echo Success!
74 • #71 (by Wil Barath on 2009-06-30 06:45:38 GMT from Canada)
#!/bin/bash
#
# Script to install a .deb package on a Debian system
# while circumventing the package manager...
#
# Often this is the only way to run a badly-packaged app.
# Other times it just avoids poor dependency choices
# ie depends vlc when mplayer is perfectly capable...
P=${1/_*/}
P=${P/*\//} # and finally, the correct HTML entitiy, lol
echo $0: Installing $P without package management:
sudo dpkg -i $1
sudo rm -vf /var/lib/dpkg/info/${P}* &&
sudo dpkg --remove $P &&
echo Success!
75 • @70 (by Adam Williamson on 2009-06-30 09:51:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
The short answer is 'because sound cards suck a lot'.
What the PulseAudio volume control does in all currently released distributions, more or less, is twiddle the volume control that shows up furthest to the left when you run a 'traditional' volume control application.
According to convention, this is supposed to be the primary volume control. All other controls should default to a level at which twiddling the primary volume control does what you want it to; give you zero volume at the bottom, full volume at the top, and a decent range in between.
It's up to the sound cards (and ALSA) to do this properly. Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen. Some sound card manufacturers, after taking large amounts of crack, decide it'd be a really great idea to hide a different slider in among the other three hundred and ninety-seven the card provides that *really* controls the volume, and make the 'primary' volume control...some kind of cunning decoy.
The correct way to fix this involves a large chunk of two by four with a rusty nail in it, and the address of the idiot who designed the sound card's mixer channels that way. Once you've done that, you let us know about the situation, and we special-case either ALSA or PulseAudio (depends on the exact incranation of the problem) to handle it.
The instructions on how to file a report of this type can be found at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=497966#c1 .
This is another case where, in the end, PA will make life better for everyone: once all the special cases are tracked down, you'll be able to control your volume really nicely from a sane interface with a single slider, rather than having to play hunt-the-right-slider in an interface with fifteen of the damn things. Most people, whose sound card was designed by someone who'd laid off the crack for a few days, already can. :)
76 • @17 (by Adam Williamson on 2009-06-30 09:59:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
The problem with your comparison is that the parameters of the situations you compare are not, in fact, remotely comparable.
The consequences of a bug in a Linux distribution are several zillion times less potentially catastrophic than those of a bug in your aeroplane. Aeroplanes are an ideal example of a situation where the cost of design flaws is potentially extremely high, hence it is overall beneficial to use very slow design cycles to ensure that all flaws are avoided. Bleeding-edge Linux distributions are an ideal example of exactly the opposite situation: the cost of design flaws is not potentially very high at all, so it makes sense for the balance to be rather more in favour of quick and aggressive development.
If we built operating systems like we built aeroplanes, they probably wouldn't have got a graphical interface yet. Hell, we probably wouldn't have made it to bash yet.
77 • PCLlinuxOS 2009 Greek Live DVD now available 30 June 2009 (by T.Harvey on 2009-06-30 10:01:49 GMT from United States)
Just wondering why DistroWatch didn't publish this news announcement released today by PCLinuxOS?
78 • PCLinuxOS 2009.1 PL – BETA 1 30 June 2009 (Polish Edition) (by T.Harvey on 2009-06-30 10:03:39 GMT from United States)
Just wondering why DistroWatch didn't publish this news announcement released today by PCLinuxOS?
79 • PCLinuxOS 2009 en français version 27 Juin 30 June 2009 (by T.Harvey on 2009-06-30 10:05:42 GMT from United States)
Just wondering why DistroWatch didn't publish this news announcement released today by PCLinuxOS?
80 • end of cooperation with mandriva (by cgrille on 2009-06-30 10:09:49 GMT from Germany)
There is a german report about the end of cooperation between mandrivauser.de and Mandriva because of lacking support of Mandriva on Linux Tag
http://www.linux-magazin.de/content/view/full/40860
81 • re- #s 77, 78 and 79 (by Todd R. on 2009-06-30 10:11:25 GMT from United States)
You wondered those things two minutes apart each?
Should have waited the full 4 minutes and made only one post.
82 • @67 (by Yeknori J. on 2009-06-30 11:11:49 GMT from United States)
"I know of the wolvix creator his nickname was Wolven and I saw him stick with it in Slax forum taking stuff from here and from there and piecing it together. Now his distro is soo GOOOD as the fanboys say. Nah, I donlt belive it."
How will you know if you never try it? What is your favoriite distro? I will try it out. As for fanboys, when you find a distro that works perfectly on your hardware you get excited and want to share that information with other people. Sorry if that is bothersome for you.
83 • Slackware, Arch, Fedora and stuff... (by davemc on 2009-06-30 11:16:05 GMT from United States)
All this fuss over Distro X, Y, and Z makes me wonder how many of you have actually installed and tested them. I have -- All of them -- and I love them all. I hate them all. I hated Arch for making me install Linux piece by piece, one tiny step at a time, making me take six hours to install the same system that took me 20 minutes to install with Ubuntu and Fedora, but I loved the Arch way after running the system for a week more than any other. I loved Fedora 10 for the quick and painless install, the superb stability, the much improved yum, the bleeding edge of the bleeding edge, but I hated its sluggishness on my high powered system. I hated Gentoo for the 2 day install of gcc hell, but I loved it later for the absolute domination it gave me over my computer -- more than any other Distro -- Portage gives you infinite degrees of control. Then there's good ol Ubuntu -- User friendly to the point of holding your hand and making you think your running Windows until that puke brown theme jolts you back to reality... But you know what?.. Everyone ends up settling down on stability!
There is only so much bleeding edge, complicated system, and breakage one can take! In the end, everyone I know settles down to a nice and super stable Linux Distro that they dont have to futz with. Thats why most of us come around full circle back to mother Debian or CentOS. I could happily settle down to a well configured Slackware or Arch or even Gentoo build with updates turned off if it weren't for the inevitable security holes that have to be patched forcing me to do them and then face instability again. I am not at the point of retiring on Debian yet, but I certainly do understand the strong need for stability over bleeding edge.
84 • @33 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-06-30 11:54:19 GMT from United States)
All of this back and forth has actually convinced me that I should take a look at Slax. I don't know what all the modules are about but it looks like I can learn a lot. I like Tomas's blog. He has a very reasonable view of things.
85 • @83 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-30 12:16:04 GMT from Germany)
Word, man!
86 • Slax (by Wil Barath on 2009-06-30 12:45:20 GMT from Canada)
Slax was the best Virtual Machine OS for me until the smaller Vector images came out. Slax has also given me a lot of love on USB sticks, doing a better job of hardware config than Knoppix while running spritely on systems that had only 128M of ram.
If you want a fast, lightweight KDE and aren't terribly concerned about having a large selection of software available to you, Slax is great. Package management is easier than the parent Slackware. If you like you can do a full disk install and keep using modules, or install Slackware packages.
The "module" way of doing things is simple: groups of relevant slackware packages are installed to a compressed filesystem and when you want to use the app you just mount the compressed filesystem and overlay it on the root filesystem. There are tools to automate the process, and tools to do network mounts via HTTP, so you only download the bits of the module that you actually use. There's some overhead involved, yet it's pretty fast even on systems with low RAM and slow processors. Anything over an original Pentium should be able to decompress the modules faster than loading the equivalent uncompressed data from disk, so the mounting and Virtual File System overhead even out... OpenOffice.org starts faster in Slax than in any other environment I've ever seen, but smaller apps often see a small penalty for startup.
One other great thing about modules and LiveCD/LiveUSB is that the environment is effectively bulletproof. You can rm -rf / all you want, it will still boot again next time, and even if you got penetrated/virus the OS will lose it at next reboot (unless it's embedded in the user's persistent home)
Hope that gives you some ideas of the pros and cons. =)
87 • @76, Cost of stability vs rate of development (by Wil Barath on 2009-06-30 13:31:20 GMT from Canada)
Considering the relatively small number of commercial aircraft and aircraft systems manufacturers, the rate of development has been alarmingly high, lol. The FAA has strict guidelines about the stability, and redundancy, of equipment that goes into an airplane, and that has limited the technology that has been adopted, particularly in light aircraft. For example electronic fuel injection. Regulation would require a redundant EFI system to be installed, so nobody is using it, even though it would increase efficiency (and therefore safety) and reliability (no carb ice). Sometimes the rules get in their own way.
So, if we developed Linux systems like we develop airplanes, we would probably still have Kernel .99plxxxxxxxxx under the hood, and only the commercial bits would have any drastic improvements.
88 • RE: 87 • @76, Cost of stability vs rate of development (by Anonymous on 2009-06-30 14:11:19 GMT from United States)
So, if we developed Linux systems like we develop airplanes, we would probably still have Kernel .99plxxxxxxxxx under the hood, and only the commercial bits would have any drastic improvements.
Maybe. But I remember I was running Linux with X back in 1996, with only 8 Megs or RAM (and 256k of video memory), and it was fast!
Nowadays, I doubt I could even boot to the shell with only 8 megs...
They haven't added EFI to the kernel, but pretty much everything else, y compris the kitchen sink.
Wait, I suppose you'll tell me to try NetBSD or smth...
89 • blackPanther OS (by Elder Vintner on 2009-06-30 15:27:06 GMT from United States)
They include advertising in the distro. This seems wrong. I know they say you can remove it but I can't support a distro like this. You might as well go back to MS. I don't like distros like elive and blackPanther getting mixed in with the rest of the good distros. Eventually the line will get blurred and then it's just another scam.
90 • re#89 ???????? (by hab on 2009-06-30 15:41:19 GMT from Canada)
I don't really understand your complaint.
Last time i looked, participation in most any linux was voluntary.
The gpl does not forbid anyone making money from software, it just proscribes or preempts most traditional methods.
So people get creative!. Doesn't mean you or anybody else HAS to open their wallets. Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to pay after all!
Lets maintain some perspective here folks.
cheers
91 • GPL (by Elder Vintner on 2009-06-30 16:15:16 GMT from United States)
You don't understand my complaint? Let's see if anyone else understands it. You did not really read my post. I did not say there is no place for these distros, I just don't like them getting mixed in with the rest of the distros. Perhaps they should be listed here but with an asterix(*). I do feel that this mis-represents the "intent" of the GPL (I'm not an attorney). You may not agree with me but I think it is valid to question this kind of behaviour. I don't want "ad-ware". That's just me. If you like it and want to pay for it then fine. But I think it should be clearly stated that these distros are what they are.
92 • re#91 (by hab on 2009-06-30 16:38:56 GMT from Canada)
So we should all rely on dw or other party flagging some distro as being what,............. less philosophically pure or some such.
I think we are all big boys and girls out here, and quite capable of making our own decisions and making up our own minds, not to mention the fact that your proposal does sound a bit nannyish to me.
cheers
93 • #92 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-06-30 16:51:03 GMT from United States)
"So we should all rely on dw or other party flagging some distro as being what,............. less philosophically pure or some such."
Yes, it would be nice if they would point this out. "Nannyish", ok that made me lol. I think you have expressed your opinion as have I. I propose that we let it rest here and allow the forum to move on.
94 • re#93 (by hab on 2009-06-30 17:02:57 GMT from Canada)
Glad ya got a chuckle out of that!
As someone put it so aptly put it last week, 'no hatin'.
Onwards and u...
cheers
95 • REALLY user-friendly Linux (by You're Kidding on 2009-06-30 17:24:13 GMT from United States)
Okay, while the tech wizards argue about all the arcane, pure geek, and utterly useless features nobody in the SOHO world will use, let's get down to brass tacks. A user-friendly Linux means:
1) A simple graphical based install/setup that works 100% of the time.
2) No going command line--we're not all sysadmins
3) A truly common printing system--not making users sort through CUPS, lpr, etc, etc.
4) Pick a file system and be done with it!
5) Can somebody explain why ALL applications can't be on a menu when I install the distro? Again, this is the command line bs keeping Windows users on Windows.
6) Do NOT make me download drivers, plug-ins, etc that are industry standards. Solve the licensing issues, find an open-source alternative, but do it the first time.
7) If you don't include a firewall, I'm not using your distro. This isn't
rocket science.
8) One package manager that deals with all the packages, dependencies, etc. Better yet, one package format.
9) Bloat. The non-geek distro does not need 5 text editors, 4 browsers, 3 audio players/rippers/slicers/dicers/cheesegraters, etc!
10) USB mounting/icons--why after all these years did I find distros that STILL didn't automatically show a USB stick being plugged in?? Don't tell me I can change the settings--this should be automatic.
The geeks shall roar---I care not. If you actually plan to make MONEY with your distro, or replace Microsoft, you cannot geek the SOHO user to death!
96 • @82 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-30 17:52:28 GMT from United States)
I run Slackware 12.2 on an ancient Pentium 3 machine. I run Fedora 9, Fedora 10 and Fedora 11 on several machines, and I run Slax on all of those machines and more of them that have Window$ . To be more honest, I run Fedora as installed system and I run Slax as a live system. And on older machines I run Slackware since it simply works whereas the others don't.
People say I am weird because on Fedora, I install the non-free stuff by compiling from source, I install mplayer from svn, xine from source to view the dvds & libdvdcss2. On Slackware all of that stuff comes for free, but I need to use wvdial and I have to install from source or from slackbuilds. Thanks to Slax also which I used before Slackware, I learned a great deal about Linux, and I am thankful to Tomas the creator of Slax. His blog is very interesting indeed. He goes against the traditional settings, he has bery strong arguments against the bible and stuff. I run Slax on most machines that don't have linux and I am very happy. Even though Tomas does not believe in God, I don't care a bit, I am partly religious though but I don't care. It is not wrong to question the existence of God and the atrocities commited in the bible. It would be nice if the people of the world finally accepted each other for what they are and unite the world with linux and with soccer. Soccer too unintes the world, South Africa 2010 will be a great World Cup too.
On another note, why doesn't an even like LinuxTag in Europe exist in US?
It would be nice to see all/most of the distributions showed up and showed off their work. . I would volunteer to help my favorite distros, ie, Fedora, Slax, SystemRescueCD, Gparted LiveCD, GeeXbox, OpenSUSE, and FreeBSD too! I don't mind all of these, like other user said here, I love them all and hate them all at the same time, but I love them more!!!
97 • @95 (by john frey on 2009-06-30 18:08:47 GMT from Canada)
1. Never happen unless the hardware becomes standard.
2. Already done
3. So someone to with a parrallel port printer is SOL? Hint, you want to choose CUPS every time.
4. Why? Ext3 is a de facto standard but there are other choices.
5. Already done
6. I'm sorry which OS are you referring to?
7. No problem
8. Why?
9. agreed
10. Already done
As you can see, for the user friendly distros, you've pretty much got evrythign you want. For the rest I think you are under the mistaken impression that:
1. Every distro is meant to be a user friendly desktop for users like yourself
2. Nobody has a need for anything that you don't need.
3. Choice is bad
There are many distros out there with many different objectives. Did you try DSL and expect to have a desktop like an openSuse/Mandriva/Ubuntu install?
I'm pretty sure there is a distro out there just the way you like it. Just use that one and ignore the rest.
98 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-06-30 18:10:11 GMT from Canada)
Within the context of a friendly, average desktop user oriented linux i think your gripes make sense. That does not extend to the larger linux community however. That has a habit of doing what it wants for it's own reasons. The cat herding thing!
It will however take a focused effort by developers to get us there. And that will only come as market demands change. We are less than 20 years into the linux era and linux is already now being posited as a replacement for win and mac. In many ways i believe we ain't seen nothing yet!
At some point some savvy developer/entrepreneur will twig to whats going on and will tie up all the loose ends and get something together that people WILL be willing to pay for. If it were to serve my need exactly, i would probably buy it too.
cheers
99 • re#98 about 97 (by hab on 2009-06-30 18:13:51 GMT from Canada)
Screwed up, 98 is mine.
The unending shame, .................................head hung............................
cheers
100 • Lots of good news from PCLinuxOS camp (by Ohioan on 2009-06-30 19:49:58 GMT from United States)
Lots of good news from PCLinuxOS camp
Seems to me PCLinuxOS developers and community are back on track.
101 • Debian 2.6.30 update, etc.... (by Anonymous on 2009-06-30 21:09:07 GMT from United States)
I would rather have 2.6.29.5 for lenny which has none of the DMA regressions that 2.6.30.1 currently has (Note: 2.6.30 is also available from backports.org).
102 • You're Kidding (by Shawn on 2009-06-30 21:10:36 GMT from United States)
What you have to realize between Linux and other operating systems is that Linux was meant to advance technology. All Linux distributions come with a firewall - it used to be ipchains, which was replaced with iptables. Just because there isn't a user-friendly GUI does not mean a firewall does not exist. User-friendly is distribution-specific, not the main purpose behind Linux. Linux is about security, too. More than a handful of Fortune 500 companies are using Unix/Linux for this reason. The main point I'm trying to convey is that Linux is about choice and that is both a good and bad thing. Choice means its harder to adopt standards or a single way of doing things. The best thing about Linux is you can make it to whatever you want it to be. The reason most distributions made in the US are missing some functionality (media-wise) is because of patent issues. I'm sure all distributions would be shipping with encrypted DVD playback and MP3 playback by default if it weren't for some patent liability. And I think it's for this reason that most paid-for Linux distributions fall short in most people's eyes is because a company is trying to determine what the "best" is based on a percentage of people. As far as I know, most distributions offer auto-mounting of USB keys when plugged in. openSUSE did it for me, Arch did it for me, Ubuntu did it for me, Sabayon did it for me and so did Fedora. As far as solving licensing issues, most big companies are on board with Linux because they see a future to it. Intel as well as many others are on board in helping to resolve hardware/software compatibility but patents on the whole are limiting Linux due to the sue-happy world we live in.
Lastly, Linux isn't about making money. Supporting Linux has a profitable side to it, but Linux is mostly driven by developers who want to contribute free software to the world.
103 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-30 21:30:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
Re 98
Hab, one could be forgiven for thinking that RED HAT does that already...LOL...I presume you were being very dry and droll.
Anyway, as a general comment, the world IS using GNULinux distros by the million...but to borrow from what was once said in the future...
"It's a distro Jim...but not as we know it..."
Ladislav, to repeat, quite often publishes news of distros quite alien to us, viz the efforts from, for example, Spain, China, Turkey, Russia, S. America, not forgetting Cuba...yet they hardly get a comment between them.
I feel sometimes, from the remarks in this forum, the hobbyist clique have no idea of what goes on outside their own perception of GNULinux/distros/packages whatsoever.
It seems as though the term, "Distrowatch", is interpreted by some as meaning Ubuntu, Suse, Fedora, Slackware and not forgetting Wolvix, etc, etc. LOL. (apols if I neglected to mention "your" fav distro).
Those distros are a tiny, mainly insignificant in global terms, collection of distros which appear to be unusually weighted comments wise. Red Flag of Chinese origin is likely to be used, by over a hundred million people...and that's less than ten percent of China's population.
It may have been noticed by some who follow the "news about GNULinux" news services that China is already pretty advanced in developing their own chips to avoid royalty type payments to US based chip manufacturers...to be installed in their own "in house" designed machines.
It is reasonable to suppose the Chinese will load their own version of a distro too...they would be silly not to, LOL. So in a year or less perhaps this near mythical figure of nearly ten percent GNULinux usage ref MS will be completely revised.
Given that China's sphere of influence is not confined strictly to its own territories...who knows where Chinese designed and manufactured, Red Flag equipped machines end up...
Lastly, ref #75,
Adam, I confess I had no idea involuntary medication in the form of a cellulose aided injection of ferrous oxide, presumably to the cranium of said dev, was a known prescription against duff apps. Genius, suggest you submit that one to the GMC...probably best not to use your reall name tho', LOL.
104 • @4 • Linux Tag (by Vance on 2009-07-01 00:13:04 GMT from United States)
> Nice article on Linux Tag; I want something like it in the Los Angeles area soon!
Good news, you already have SCALE. I have heard good things about it: http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/
Also, for the Midwest US: http://www.ohiolinux.org/
Eastern Canada and New York: http://www.onlinux.ca/
Pacific Northwest: http://linuxfestnorthwest.org/
Carolinas/Southeastern US: http://www.southeastlinuxfest.org/
105 • @ 11 (by wayne on 2009-07-01 02:27:39 GMT from United States)
You might give this one a try;
64 Bit
http://linuxtracker.org/index.php?page=torrent-details&id=0df1dbb1b37bdfc1b867fe8575bbeb6c2979c39c
32Bit
http://linuxtracker.org/index.php?page=torrent-details&id=4e48950a14edb6d1eca77b918c4b6a3927b8f607
DanumLinux website;
http://danumlinux.com/
106 • PCLinuxOS 2009 (by Pollick Tically Korreck on 2009-07-01 02:28:09 GMT from United States)
It's good to see that PCLinuxOS 2009 is alive, well and going along. Thanks Texstar for all of your hard work.
PTK
107 • #103 & SaxonOS (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-01 03:32:38 GMT from United States)
C'mon Forest! You are not the only one with the "macroscopic global perspective".
Different topic: Has anyone tried SaxonOS? I hope it's good, it took 5 hours to download with highspeed internet.
108 • @ 106 powder-keg (by Tom on 2009-07-01 06:13:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
I feel like we are sitting on barrel of gunpowder here
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20090330&mode=67
It is great to see PCLinuxOS up on it's feet again :) Now if Dsl can recover from losing Shingledecker (i still haven't had a good go with TinyCore) then maybe we'll all be better off for all the stormy weather we had back there ;)
109 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-01 08:08:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref #107
Ref perspective...possibly not, yet few people seem to realise, or perhaps acknowledge, for all the chattering about GNULinux promulgation etc, etc, it IS being taken up, under their very noses, but as mentioned earlier, they don't, or won't, or can't recognise it...yet.
I wonder sometimes whether Ladislav publishes these news items in a deliberate attempt, ahem, to show GNULinux stuff IS flourishing and for readers to look beyond their comfort zone and get a world view...I mean he has named his site, "Distrowatch".
Whilst some folk on this forum go into the minutia of one package after another...I can't really see Senora Fernandez or Mrs Wong say, fretting over a tricky command line entry...they just want to get online to do some shopping or email the offspring and get the pictures of the latest grandchild...
Guys, girls, get some perspective, THAT is what computing is to countless millions...and by several accounts GNULinux is doing just that...to repeat yet again GNULinux is not the sole domain of the hobbyist.
And no, I, for one, have not had a look at SaxenOS yet. And despite my apparent disinterest...how come it took so long to dl with a high speed connection? This is my hobbyist side showing now, LOL.
110 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-01 08:19:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
This article is going to provoke some comments in the "community", LOL:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10276275-16.html
111 • PCLinuxOS re: 77, 78, 79 (by davecs on 2009-07-01 09:36:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just to summarize
Over the last day or so, there have been 4 new iso images for download:
PCLOS 2009.2
PCLOS Gnome 2009.2
PCLOS KDE3 Mini-Me
PCLOS Zen-Mini (a gnome Mini-Me)
Since the middle of June, there have been community remasters in Greek, Polish and French, and an Xfce version.
In all the "official" versions there is a folder of icons on the desktop called "Utilities". If you set up your internet first, you can add your Locale, with the option to install your localised OpenOffice. There is also an icon to install OpenOffice if you have already set up your locale or content with the default American English.
There are other new features aimed at ease of use for the new user too, including Update Notifier.
What is really good from my angle is that the community has really come to the fore over the last few months, making these new releases possible.
112 • Further to 111 - PCLinuxOS (by davecs on 2009-07-01 09:39:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
Look here for more details:
http://www.pclinuxonline.com
113 • Cnet (by Tom on 2009-07-01 11:50:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
Wouldn't let me sign-up using a password with non-alphanumeric characters in my password, are they noobish no-hopers with no idea about computers and security? An interesting article but from the comments there, people clearly have no idea about gnu/linux. Good to see an article about linux out in the real world though, and great to see it tied to particular distros that people can go and try out for themselves, shame there's no links to make that task easy for them tho :(
Thanks forest, it was a fun read :)
114 • Oracle and Linux (by MRaugh on 2009-07-01 12:06:33 GMT from United States)
@110: The writer seems to have missed (or is ignoring?) the fact that Oracle has for several years now been providing its own Oracle Enterprise Linux -- a de-branded recompile of Red Hat similar to CentOS/Startcom/et al. Ubuntu would actually be a step backwards in enterprise acceptability from cloned RHEL.
-MR
115 • @#42 (by Sean on 2009-07-01 12:09:41 GMT from United States)
What are the weaknesses of vector linux, Cailtyn Martin?
116 • #115 (by Salmadon R. on 2009-07-01 13:16:38 GMT from United States)
I'm not Caitlyn but I can tell you one that was a show stopper for me. It didn't get the sound drivers right. I have not had this problem with Zenwalk, or Wolvix. This is really annoying because other than that it is a very nice distro. IME, the graphical installer is a little "iffy" on some machines too. Now granted I could have played around with it and got it working. But alas, I like most people just didn't want to be bothered when there are two other similar distros that just work. Now with all this talk about Wolvix recently I just want to point out that Zenwalk is also an excellent distro with a different focus.
117 • #42 - Weaknesses in VectorLinux (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-01 13:22:23 GMT from United States)
@Sean: There are actually quite a few weaknesses in VL. You haven't specified a version or whether you are interested in Standard, SOHO, Light or Live. I'll pick on the most popular version right now, which is VectorLinux Standard 6.0.
1. The brand new GUI installer is a work in progress. There are enough bugs that a completely rewritten version will be included in VL SOHO 6.0. One that would be particularly annoying to netbook and older laptop users is that it doesn't display properly on resolutions less than 1024x768. At 1024x600 (the standard for netbooks with 8.9" to 10.1" screens) part of the installer is cut off making it impossible to deal wit some settings. On those machines you pretty much have to revert to the old text-based installer. There are other issues as well.
2. Internationalization and localization is far better in 6.0 than in 5.9.x but it really still is deficient. Most VL specific apps (i.e. VASM, vpackager, vcpufreq, etc...) are still English-only with no translations available. The GUI installer only supports five languages. There are no language packs in the repository for OpenOffice or Seamonkey. Many of the .desktop files that generate the menus also lack a lot of translations. For example, I have a separate account for Hebrew computing on one machine and while most of the desktop icons get Hebrew text and everything goes from right-to-left as expected most of my V menu is still in English.
3. It's a dot zero version, the first one from VectorLinux in four years. As expected there are a lot of minor (not showstopping) bugs. In general, if you want to know most of the bugs in VL 6.0 read this thread: http://forum.vectorlinux.com/index.php?topic=8664.0
4. The software repositories, while much larger than any previous version and much larger than any other Slackware based distro are still small compared to Ubuntu, Debian, Mandriva or SUSE. This is improving gradually but it's still a shortcoming.
5. Every so often the volunteer packagers are a little slow at getting security patches out. This used to be a huge issue. Now it is only a very occasional issue. FWIW, I've had the same complaint about most of the major distros at one time or another, but it is still a valid issue. Also, the only sure place to see a security vulnerability posted is the website. That's fine but sometimes it gets updated a day or three after an updated package becomes available.
If you want a more complete list of positives and negatives I have a review which is almost ready for publication. It will appear on O'Reilly Broadcast in the next couple of days. Check http://oreilly.com/linux/ and it will appear there.
118 • Sound on VL (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-01 13:29:44 GMT from United States)
I've actually never had a sound problem with VL going all the way back some very early versions. What I have read about in the forum is a problem also seen in Ubuntu: Sound is configured and working after install but the volume is down all the way and the GUI panel volume control doesn't bring it up. Using alsamixer to set the volume control solves the problem. See Adam Williamson's comment above (#75). It's essentially the same issue. Probably one search of the forum would have solved it for you.
I actually like both Zenwalk and Wolvix. However, both have issues with certain hardware. Wolvix 2.0 is still beta code and there definitely are bugs. Even with the list I presented in comment #117 I still find Vector Linux to be the best implementation of a user friendly Slackware type distro for the desktop. For example, how ever much I complain about relatively small software repsositories, Vector is light years ahead of the other two in that area.
119 • #107 - SaxenOS (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-01 13:34:01 GMT from United States)
Yes, I've tried SaxenOS. With version 2.0 I found it to be incredibly slow on my hardware. That was a bit of a shocker since Slackware-based distros usually perform very well. They also haven't had a stable release in well over a year and the 2009 version is still in beta and needs a lot of work. My judgement is that it's one distro that still isn't ready for prime time. Perhaps by the time 2009 goes final it will be better.
120 • One foot in, One foot out (by Slave2Bill on 2009-07-01 13:37:39 GMT from United States)
Sony Acid Pro is keeping me from making a complete leap to Linux and Open Source. My XP system died and I had to buy a Vi$ta Machine and I wasn't very happy about that. I feel like an @$$ forking over huge licensing fees to also include anti-virus and firewall software licenses. I try to promote open source and Linux where and whenever possible even at work.
My dilemma, I really need an powerful but easy to use Linux DAW with no gotchas and without the complexity for my professional music productions. All of my other system business is done with Debian. This would of been a great time to break completely free, and believe I wish I could of, and save hundred$ of Dollar$ while doing it.
Slave2Bill
121 • #119/118 (by Salmadon R. on 2009-07-01 14:24:53 GMT from United States)
Thanks for that information on Vector. I actually did do what you suggested but unfortunately the sound problem was more complicated than that. I ran into the same screen resolution problem as you did. I wanted to install it on a laptop for a family member but had to go with another distro. The thing that bewilders me is that this is not a new distro. Isn't it kind of late in the game to be having these kinds of problems? Of course this is coming from a layman with no experience in putting out a distro. I am sure they will get it all sorted soon. There is a great group of people over there.
Interesting information on SaxenOS. I was wondering if anyone had a similar experience. I couldn't get it to boot all the way. It started going real slow and eventually I ran out of patience.
122 • more moderation might be useful as might a forum (by tbd on 2009-07-01 14:43:01 GMT from United States)
Seems that DW has a large number of posters with both strong feeling regarding their preferred distro's and a lot of useful (sometimes) information to share but lot's of it gets missed in the comments section as it's a single thread.
Might it be better to:
1) moderate comments to be relevant to the weekly issue? Really it's nice that #1 wet dreams Wolvix but do I have to constantly see his "spam" as comment # 1.
2) add forums so the the discussions can me easier to follow and more focussed
3) maybe posting to weekly should require setting up an account
123 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-01 14:46:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref #114
You spotted it MR, when it comes to journos there's bound to be a bit of spin...whether or not Uxx would be a retrograde step all depends on its application. In other words that might be your opinion, other folk might think differently.
Which is a nice segue into this link and ties in with a previous comment appropos a French "authority" switching to a GNULinux OS...
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/03/french-police-saves-millions-of-euros-by-adopting-ubuntu.ars
124 • #122 (by BooHoo on 2009-07-01 14:49:14 GMT from United States)
We've seen your kind of nonsense before and it's not going to happen. When Ladislav gets bored or irritated he just deletes the comments. It works out nicely except when mine are deleted. Then I boldly boycott the forum and change my name like any mature sophisticant would do.
125 • 121 & 119 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-01 14:54:31 GMT from United States)
SaxonOS: Yes my experience was disappointing too. I don't know why the download was so slow. Oh well, on to the next one.
126 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-01 15:07:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref #124...BH you really are a card, I had quite a chortle at your very apt and concise opinion.
Ref #123 again, I should have added that the French police's adoption of Ubuntu was only the tip of the iceberg...what with their farmers ploughing into Mandriva as well as the French Assembly folk using it too.
Interesting little aside on Red Hat too...
Hope that was the link(s) you were hinting at Tom? LOL
127 • @ Caitlyn Martin (by Sean on 2009-07-01 15:36:42 GMT from United States)
I have the vl "gold" that was released several weeks ago. It is on a HP pc with lots of RAM and a nice "core duo" processor. It screams on that machine (at home).
I cannot find any shortcomings at all. Well I had to configure it!
It survives updates without breaking; that's a biggie for me. It was on a laptop for a while but the laptop is changed to pc linux 2009 now and that is only because of the preference of another user in the place.
We went ahead and paid for the version we have.
Thank you for reading my post then answering it.
128 • #121, #127 responses (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-01 15:42:38 GMT from United States)
#121: It's kind of a shame you went on to another distro because of the issue with the GUI installer at low resolution. If you boot the CD and type:
linux text
instead of just hitting enter you would have run the old ncurses based (text) installer which works just fine at 640x480 and anything above that. That's what I did on my netbook.
#127: You're very welcome. I'm glad you've had good results.
129 • spam & ham (by Tom on 2009-07-01 16:52:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
I would definitely not like to see DW require an account. Interesting that it's called for by people who hide behind fake email addresses or anonymous names (or both). An account would do almost nothing to stop regular posters but would deter the interesting one-offs that frequently lead us to interesting places - Omnia and Kongoni were great and i probably wouldn't have tried them otherwise.
It's interesting that people don't seem to notice the other distros i go on about and also don't seem to mind when we have 4 or 5 postings in a row about some other distro but are instantly incensed about "repeated spam" at a single mention of a certain distro beginning with W. Last time there was a serious discussion with someone clearly giving good reasons (rather than an childish foot-stamping) why they didn't like it (despite never having tried it) they soon saw reason to give it a quick spin and became "another fanboi" within a couple of hours. This isn't the place for another long such discussion. If you haven't tried and decided you don't like it because 'its just the same as all the rest' and are to afraid to have a reasonable chat by email then i refer you to the Mark Twain quote.
I have once posted here under a pseudonym, the other night it was all getting very silly and i posted some stupid thing under the name Pat-Troll which i found immensely amusing at the time but now grimace each time it rolls by. Luckily the comment got deleted but the name remains :( I know some people have good reason to keep changing their name but i really admire people that can stand by what they said or take responsibility and apologise and then move on. Many regulars here say a lot that's worthwhile as do the one-offs and everyone in between. I'm sure that most adults are able to filter the nonsense out although often it's the kids that seem more mature about it.
130 • No subject (by tbd on 2009-07-01 17:06:18 GMT from United States)
@129 - in post #1 you didn't say anything, you don't go on about anything you just threw up your little ad for W as you had the previous week. You're not adding adding anything to any discussion you're just being a fanboy and personally I think that doing that just turns people off to what you're promoting.
You want to promote your distro of choice start a web site, don't spam (and you even admit it's "spam") others and the argument that others might being doing the same is childish because they shouldn't be either.
131 • apropos#129 linux milieu (by hab on 2009-07-01 17:19:00 GMT from Canada)
My perception based on what i've witnessed first hand is that linux has not quite seeped into the consciousness of computer using people beyond a certain age. I don't care to name a number ;-)!
Walk in a typical computer (win) user and sit them in front of a linux box and they largely operate from some confused and confusing prior assumptions. Hilarity ensues!
Do the same with a 12 or 13 year old and they will simply start using the box. No questions, no problems, simply acceptance that the box works.
I've drawn some obvious conclusions from this.
cheers
132 • @123 (by MRaugh on 2009-07-01 17:27:20 GMT from United States)
Just to clarify, forest: I don't see Ubuntu as a retrograde step in functionality for an enterprise compared to RHEL, just in acceptance. Red Hat is so entrenched in large business that it's easier to get them to look at a CentOS/Oracle RHEL clone than at something like Ubuntu or even mother Debian.
-MR
133 • #128 (by Salmadon R. on 2009-07-01 18:30:35 GMT from United States)
If I get the laptop again I might try that. However if I remember correctly, the GUI installer worked (on the laptop) it was a problem that occured after I rebooted. How is wireless on Vector? I understand that you like Vector because in your experience it just works, IME it doesn't. I have no doubt if you were installing Vector on the same machine you could have easily resolved the issues I was having. Maybe next time I'll just pop over for tea. I should add that Wolvix did not work out of the box either but that is understandable with it's beta status.
I ended up going with Mepis 8 because the wireless worked out of the box. This is a point that has been discussed before, "working out of the box". I was in a position where I had limited time to get a machine working. I did not have time to do a long Q & A on a forum. I just tried a couple of distros and Mepis 8 was the one that worked on that machine. AntiX also worked flawlessly. This is why it is nice to have so many choices. I really don't favor any one distro over the other.
134 • Re:129 It' s a matter of intent. (by Sertse on 2009-07-01 18:38:24 GMT from Australia)
The offending thing for me is that, you know, and I know that you wrote post 1 for the main purpose to say something about Wolvix, and that it was a case of figuring to "twist" the DW topic to be relevant to it. This is disingenuous and offensive imo, because tou aren't replying because you are actually interested in DWW being discussed - but using it promote an agenda.
This is squarely about your behaviour, not anything about Wolvix itself, I want to be clear about that.
135 • No subject (by Sertse on 2009-07-01 18:48:24 GMT from Australia)
To add to that - most comments, and mentions of other distros are at least, raising or responding to some sort of "issue" (even if it is, why is DW so biased to buntu - which it isn't imo...) . Too often though you raise Wolvix "just because", or direct otherwise unrelated things to be about Wolvix.
This is what deserved to be called out and reprimanded on.
136 • @134 (by Homer Simpson on 2009-07-01 19:06:04 GMT from United States)
Good point there Sertse. It was a rather obvious attempt to get the Wolvix name in there. But really did it hurt anything? It can get a bit bothersome but no worse than Caitlyn's endless forum antics regarding Vector. She has an article coming out on O'reilly soon. Funny how that got worked into the conversation. Oh, and I just mentioned it again (you're welcome Caitlyn). I do agree with Tom about using your real name though...DOH! Let's just go back to discussing distros.
137 • Personal abuse (by Tom on 2009-07-01 19:30:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
Look, i really don't think this is a good place for personal attacks based on unsubstantiated personal opinion. If you have a personal criticism then please use my email address. I haven't had a single email from anyone using this public forum to criticise me and i doubt that half of what's been said would be said to my face, even in public. If you choose to focus on one part of what i say and not others then that's your choice, it's not in the way i wrote it. I'm not going to respond detailing why those criticisms were hypocritical at best.
138 • #136, #137 - Personal abuse (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-01 20:03:49 GMT from United States)
Tom, if you don't want to be personally abused don't post in the DWW comments. There are a few children on here who do nothing but. Case in point is #136 who spoke of my "forum antics". Why did I mention Vector this week? Someone asked me a direct question about what the weak points were and I answered it. I also pointed to where I would write more answers rather than write an overly long post on DWW. The "Homer Simpson" name really seems appropriate, doesn't it?
Having said that, I do feel that you're "I'm #1" posts serve no purpose at all. Why not wait until you can answer a question or add something really constructive?
It is only natural that when asked about what works well or why we choose a distro our favorites would come up. That's true for everyone. In my case that's Red Hat/CentOS for business and VectorLinux for personal use. For someone else it may be something entirely different. Some people have nothing better to do than throw stones. Pity.
139 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-01 20:47:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
Canadian matters...sort of.
Hab, you might be interested in this, more your neck of the woods than mine...
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/02/canadian-government-eyes-open-sources-asks-for-feedback.ars
Sort of a follow on from a few weeks back.
(Quick aside: I use the term "argument" in the mathematical sense...apologies if I sounded peremptory in an earlier life...)
140 • Linux Tag? (by Tom on 2009-07-01 20:48:09 GMT from United Kingdom)
So still question's unanswered. Is LinuxTag an annual event? Was this it's first year? There seem to be hints suggesting either way but people have only focussed on half the post - as if no other posts since early Monday are worthy of criticism and for what - for doing the same as plenty of other people. I'm not saying they are wrong, i'm saying that criticising one person and not another for the same thing is unlikely to make me take the criticism as anything other than pathetic
141 • wow (by Tom on 2009-07-01 21:05:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
I like that "A nonprofit group sued the province of Quebec last year, alleging that the provincial government failed to comply with procurement regulations by granting millions of dollars of no-bid contracts to Microsoft." Fantastic :)
142 • re#139 (by hab on 2009-07-01 21:09:14 GMT from Canada)
Thanks forest.
I get a little nervous when governments actually appear to care somewhat about the what the proletariat wants, thinks, or needs.
Now mind you they can use financial penury as a cover for this kind of thing.
I realized 10 years or more ago, that ultimately free software has to be the way for govs. The taxpayer benefits would be important but i think also is the culture of openness fostered by free software.
forest, if you wish, email me. Just remember tho, i'm an old fart.
cheers
143 • RE: 140 (by IMQ on 2009-07-01 21:21:42 GMT from United States)
From their page:
"LinuxTag has been held for 13 years, longer than any other Linux tradefair in Europe. More than 200 free software projects and companies are participating, more than at other european Linux events. LinuxTag attracts more visitors, almost 12.000 - an established record. since the very first plannings in 1995, visitors and exhibitors value LinuxTag for its credibility and competence."
http://www.linuxtag.org/2009/en/about/ueber-den-linuxtag.html
144 • MMMHM (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-01 21:33:57 GMT from United States)
Interesting developments thusfar. Not a very happy DDW comments page, if you ask me.
I agree with the others, Tom, I'm sorry to say. Seems like you keep trying to mention Wolvix as much as possible. Just lay off for a bit, would'ja? It's hard to stop rolling my eyes at Caitlyn's Vector...kidding, just kidding, sorry, that one just slipped out.
I'll use Wolvix when it's not beta. RC, Preview, whatever the case. Incessant posting will not drive its popularity up.
I, on the other hand, am forced to suffer through Vista for a few days thanks to a few issues with my Linux partition. I'd nuke Vista entirely, but it contains valuable Wi-Fi info for the buildings around me that cannot be replicated. Pity. But the laptop that its on is extremely powerful; even a "bloated" Ubuntu install was a mere blip on this thing's radar. What a refreshing change of pace!
In any case, I tried the Presto plugin for Fedora 11 and it worked spectacularly. A 300 MB download was turned into more around 50 MB. What a technology.
I tried to download PCLinuxOS 2009.2 last night, but no mirrors worked. I guess it's time to search for a good torrent and pirate the thing. Hopefully this one boots, unlike 2009.1. No knock against it, but it seemed a little unsteady at the time; with any luck the project will be back to its old tricks soon enough.
145 • #144 (by Albert Hall on 2009-07-01 21:58:51 GMT from United States)
I agree with the others Tom, sorry to say. None of this represents the view of the developer Wolven who is an extremely humble and non-publicity seeking guy. He readily states that he "borrowed" a lot from Slax and in turn, Slackware. The guy just made a distro that HE likes and put it up there in case there were any others that might like it too. He doesn't really care about the DW rankings from what I can gather. All of this "going on" about Wolvix is probably embarassing to him. He should be proud however that he has created a distro that attracts such ardent fans but, enough is enough. Let's leave him alone to do his own publicity if he wants to. If not, so be it. I do feel that this constant barage of postings about Wolvix will have a negative backlash and people will become so annoyed that they will just pass it by. My thoughts FWIW.
146 • re#144 (by hab on 2009-07-01 22:12:59 GMT from Canada)
Sorry but i don't see the bitch about Tom's posting wolvix's name in the first post of the week.
He's on greenwich time, i'm about 7 hrs (PDT) behind. Hell, if i had a fav distro i might do the same. Assuming i could stay awake! He's a fan but doesn't come across as a fanboi. Or perhaps 'fawnboi' would be what i label those who go on and on about their favorite toy like some ubuntu users/sufferers. ;-)
i don't really perceive that to be the case.
There, i've annoyed those who slavish support both wolvix and ubuntu.
O'm'gawd. I've gone and said wolvix and ubuntu again and i've tweaked the complainants as well.
ciao
147 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-01 23:10:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ok Hab, will do when I've more time to compose, thanks.
Ref #1 and ensuing comments. Why is there a problem with Tom "going on" about Wolvix? This forum is about distros and Tom was going on about distros...
That's what we do on this forum, go on about distros, pros and cons etc etc. Caitlyn for example is perceived as "going on" about Vector, but...comes up with pretty useful stuff to help Vector buffs.
Adam W goes on...at length...about Fedora and does his best to help Fedora buffs...although I'm not sure I would support his assertion that the best way to debug some apps, written, allegedly, by drug crazed devs is to execute them with a rusty nail embedded in a plank of wood. I would have thought it only fair to search the forums first...then murder them...probably it would help with your "just cause" plea...
And, since when does it matter a hoot what a dev, or indeed his disciples, think "we" think about his or her distro? Why not turn the argument around and say if you don't want folk to discover, learn and like your distro...and then comment about your distro in the positive...it begs the question why you submitted your distro for publication in the first place.
Let us not forget the sage words of Oscar Wilde...poet, playwright, inhabitant of Reading Gaol..."There's only one thing worse than being talked about...and that is NOT being talked about..." Wise words indeed from the master of wise words as I'm sure we can all agree...
Personally I think Wolvix is an excellent distro...in the hobbyist line...and sadly that's all it will ever be...not, I hasten to add there is anything wrong in the slightest with that..but some folk, myself included, look for "long term support" in a distro for regular reliable use...as in security updates and similar...not to mention an outfit with a huge wodge of cash to pay salaries, etc.
Perhaps you missed Tom's point about there not being a stand at the conference...I construed that remark to mean it was a shame Wolvix could not be at the conference and display itself to all and sundry to show what could be achieved on a very small budget by, effectively, one man and his wolf.
148 • No subject (by tbd on 2009-07-01 23:39:37 GMT from United States)
@147 forest - Tom had nothing to say and he said it last week too. I saw the point he "made" but I'm not sure how he knew there was no booth, he only knew that the W distro was not mentioned in the article and he didn't even seem to know what LinuxTag was. It seems he only knew that he could use the word "rock" and W in the same sentence and in the first post.
To me if there was news or something then there's be a point in his posting but a shout out to his fav is not news it's spam. And this would go for any other posts that were similar.
149 • cli browsers and youtube videos. (by anticapitalista on 2009-07-01 23:48:30 GMT from Greece)
Does anyone know if it is possible (and if it it is, how?) to play youtube videos in init 3 without X using a cli browser such as links2?
150 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-02 00:23:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref #148
Tbd...this is not "We are the thought police watch" you know, LOL.
It's only "your" opinion (and maybe a handful of others) that Tom had "nothing" to say on that particular topic...I have no idea how Tom knew there was no Wolvix stand...perhaps he examined the list of exhibitors on the online program? Perhaps he read the info stuff from the Wolvix website? I don't suppose it was a state secret...
I did not know what Linux Tag was either but Tom asked for some help and nobody came back until #140...if you knew you might have condescended to come back even earlier...why not...it's not as tho it cost anything to help him...
Granted, he could have googled it, but he didn't, he asked for help in the forum he or you or I feel at home in.
On the subject of talking/not talking about a certain distro...if anyone is unhappy with any topic then they simply don't read about it...you are not obliged to...Ladislav is not about to come round your house, kick the door in and do a Flatley on your face if you don't read every word...now is he?
And there I was, thinking "we" were a community offering each other mutual help and advice to each other...
151 • apropos #150 (by hab on 2009-07-02 00:44:18 GMT from Canada)
A message, ..............a post, is just that.
Whatever it engenders in me or in anyone is only a reflection of my own or their own, for want of a better word, 'shit'!
Really has nothing intrinsically to do with the original post. How i interpret a post is filtered through my reality and is my responsibility! For someone else that is their responsibility!
Just to keep on a linux tack, to prevent being deleted as off topic, anyone have a heads up on what is happening with lin-x. The 1.2 release was put on hold back in the beginning of june. Nary a peep nary since. Good swing and probably a threebagger. The forum appears to be getting spammed with pr0n and not particularly active.
Oh well another putative warrior/candidate falls by the wayside.
Just ask the dinosaurs.
Evolutions a bitch!
ciao
152 • No (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-02 00:54:41 GMT from United States)
@150: Community? I think us Linux fans have some things to work out before we're a "community." Probably the first step to enlightenment would be this statement, spoken over and over again: "The distro doesn't matter, the distro doesn't matter, the distro doesn't matter..."
I roll my eyes at anyone who goes out of their way to mention a distro. I'll groan when someone posts "I like Ubuntu" on a review about Zenwalk. Replace those two distros with anything, any OS, any technology, whatever. I mean, it's fine to discuss WHY exactly (I like Ubuntu more than Zenwalk because Ubuntu is an installable live CD), but, goodness, people. Settle down. It's just a distro, which, as we've established, doesn't matter.
That's all I'm saying.
Also, googling "Linuxtag" and "Wolvix" brings this page up as the first hit. Make your own assumptions.
153 • Gentoo 2009? (by Anonymous on 2009-07-02 02:46:05 GMT from United States)
The reason why I'm asking is because between hal and usb not working properly, my system is so hacked up even when current that I honestly do not believe Gentoo could release a current working distro.
This is so important that everything is synced up to a current working version at least once a year. Slowly but surely I've seen things just stop working now I'm in a pickle and I've been using Linux for nine years and cannot get ahead with Gentoo.
I see how Sabayon is doing it, their kernel release is behind the next Ubuntu release. For a while I couldn't understand how the follow-on distros were doing it now I see that they are releasing dated software on their distros.
154 • Gentoo 2009 (by RollMeAway on 2009-07-02 04:56:26 GMT from United States)
Give Toorox a try.
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=toorox
It is a fast and refreshing live/install distro, on a DVD.
Many nice tweaks, to make it easier to use.
A new release seems to follow kde4 releases, every few months.
A quick and easy way to get gentoo installed.
Do remember to hit the TAB key at boot, and change the lang=de to us, for english.
155 • Dual-boot (by Tom on 2009-07-02 05:46:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
If your current distro is temporarily letting you down then why not add another to your multi-boot? I'm not completely clear on whether fstab could usefully point at your existing /home or maybe it would stuff up the settings of you window-manager and stuff. Hopefully you could recover your main distro sometime later. I am assuming you've checked the forums and are using the last stable release rather than a beta version, sorry i don't know Gentoo.
Good luck and regards from
Tom :)
156 • Community (by Tom on 2009-07-02 06:38:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
What does 'community' mean to you? Have you ever experienced life in a village, a tower block, a housing estate or worked in a partnership or been a member of a golf-club or an amateur-dramatics group or been part of a 'close' family? Does everyone get on well all the time? People talk of 'the linux community' at least partly as a warning, it balances the good stuff.
157 • No subject (by Untitled on 2009-07-02 06:59:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just to add my little bit, I chuckled at Tom's first comment. Yes, it was partly pointless, but it's like Tom has to get Wolvix out his sytem first before he can make "pointy" comments, and I don't think that Tom's (other) comments are all about banging on and on about one distribution.
For me there's nothing wrong with fanboism as long as it's not overdone, and for me it wasn't case.
I must also add that I like Caitlyn's Vector antics and Adam's Fedora drug-fueled chronologies, for me it's a large part of what makes this place interesting, so thank you both.
158 • @147 (by Adam Williamson on 2009-07-02 07:53:09 GMT from United Kingdom)
"I'm not sure I would support his assertion that the best way to debug some apps, written, allegedly, by drug crazed devs is to execute them with a rusty nail embedded in a plank of wood. I would have thought it only fair to search the forums first...then murder them...probably it would help with your "just cause" plea..."
A good point well made - it always helps to plan ahead!
159 • @70&74 (&158 i guess) (by Tom on 2009-07-02 09:17:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
Multimedia generally is extremely poor in linux. Knowing the foibles of hardware manufacturers with things like their tendency to treat PCM as the main volume control, rather the the all-too-obvious "Main Volume" (which would be so boring to use as the main volume) surely our linux distros and multimedia apps could set the speaker icon on the panel to adjust PCM - in fact why not just rename it to "Main Volume (pcm)". Ok, i can see where this one would go already ;)
I've been told that PulseAudio is the sound-server and Alsa is just one app that uses that 'server'. Pulse Audio being able to handle multiple i/o's but alsa only able to cope with 1 at a time?
160 • pls delete 159 & this one! (by Tom on 2009-07-02 09:43:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sorry i forgot and somethign i said got picked up as a tag :(
161 • @ Tom #129 (by Sean on 2009-07-02 11:59:29 GMT from United States)
Hi Tom. I, like many others here, judging by responses to you, enjoy your insights posted.
I do disagree with you about the idea of having this area become accounts accessible only, though. I feel it's needed here and has been needed for a while now.
One thing it is not needed for is spam; it appears that the sysop here is diligent at removing ads/links posted by bots or goofy people trying to use the comments field as advertising space for their products.
It does seem to be need for accountability, though. One account per isp address would be a great way to pare down both multiple, fake names in here causing problems and also multiple people on the same machine at different times coming in and watering down the legitimacy of more serious users (that is one of the problems at our facility).
Maybe the sysop here does not mind the trade off of frequent, diligent observation/monitoring here vs the security of having an account system for posters. After all, the Distrowatch comments section has been around for a long time and seems to be ok.
But I still prefer forums with members and structure. Just my two cents worth. :)
162 • oops (by Sean on 2009-07-02 12:27:41 GMT from United States)
"..one account per isp address.." should be "..one account per ip address," of course.
163 • Ubuntu statement on Mono inclusion (by bill on 2009-07-02 12:28:48 GMT from United States)
and I quote "Given the above, the Ubuntu Technical Board sees no reason to exclude Mono or applications based upon it from the archive, or from the default installation set." https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-June/000584.html
Question will this cause you to stop using Ubuntu?
164 • #161 (by Homer Simpson on 2009-07-02 13:05:01 GMT from United States)
DOH! Naughty, naughty Tom! You are going to be the reason the whole forum switches over to a structured system. Look what you've done! You mentioned Wolvix a couple of times and now everyone has their panties in a bunch. My God, if there were half the outcry about Caitlyn's self-promoting, Vector zealotry the forum would be abolished by now. Now I don't want to bash Caitlyn too much because she'll give me "what for". I've noticed that, as my old mummy used to say, "she's not tongue-tied nor bashful". When she's not prattling on about Vector, she does add a lot with her keen intellect and helpful suggestions. There now she can't be too mad. We have a love/hate relationship ( just kidding we don't have any relationship, god forbid). This comment should probably be deleted because it's off topic, not funny and irrelevant. I'll try to do better in the future. DOH.
165 • stats vs perceptions (by Tom on 2009-07-02 14:08:01 GMT from United Kingdom)
I got some surprising results from counting the number of times various distros are mentioned in the first 100 posts. Over 30% of posts didn't mention any specific distro but 39 different distros were mentioned although i did count mention of "Windows" separately from those of Xp, Vista & Win7. Specific distros were mentioned 329 times. I'm really not sure how this table will turn out, 3rd time lucky hopefully
The column headings don't fit neatly ...
Distro, Number of times mentioned in all, percentage of total 'mentionings of any distro', Number of posts the distro appears in, percentage of the 100 posts that the distro appears in, average number of times the distro is mentioned in each post where it appears.
CentOS 19 6% 7 4% 3
Debian 28 9% 14 9% 2
Fedora 38 12% 18 11% 2
Mandriva 10 3% 5 3% 2
openSUSE 16 5% 8 5% 2
PclinuxOS 9 3% 2 1% 5
RedHat 3 1% 3 2% 1
Slackware 78 24% 22 14% 4
Ubuntu 24 7% 9 6% 3
Vector 5 2% 5 3% 1
Wolvix 13 4% 9 6% 1
Windows 8 2% 7 4% 1
Others 78 24% 52 32%
Totals 329 100% 161 100%
So for example CentOS only appears in 4 posts but is mentioned an average of 3 times in each of those 4. Another example is Wolvix was mentioned in 6 posts but tends to be only mentioned once in each of those. I've rounded figures to the nearest whole number (well OoO rounded them). I included the "subject line" as part of each post. Anyone that wants a copy of the full spreadsheet please email me for & i'll send it as either odt or html, I really needed to get my teeth into OpenOffice.
I found it interesting that Wolvix is mentioned so little (contrary to what people seem to perceive), appearing in only 2 more posts than Windows. Vector too appeared surprisingly little. Great to see Slackware being mentioned so much this week, very unusual, and good to see it happening in the week of it's new release :) Amazing to see RedHat hardly mentioned at all! I think that really shows this is a forum primarily used by desktop users.
Typically i found that most people that berated me "for spamming" by mentioning Wolvix once in a post had themselves mentioned their fav many many times. A clever deception on their part.
Regards from
Tom :)
166 • err, tidied a little (by Tom on 2009-07-02 14:17:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
CentOS ---- 19 ----- 6% --- 7 ----- 4% - 3
Debian ----- 28 ----- 9% - 14 ----- 9% - 2
Fedora ----- 38 --- 12% - 18 ---- 11% - 2
Mandriva -- 10 ----- 3% -- 5 ------ 3% - 2
openSUSE 16 ----- 5% -- 8 ------ 5% - 2
PclinuxOS -- 9 ----- 3% -- 2 ------ 1% - 5
RedHat ------ 3 ----- 1% -- 3 ------ 2% - 1
Slackware- 78 --- 24% - 22 ---- 14% - 4
Ubuntu ----- 24 ----- 7% --- 9 ----- 6% - 3
Vector -------- 5 ----- 2% --- 5 ----- 3% - 1
Wolvix ------ 13 ----- 4% --- 9 ----- 6% - 1
Windows ---- 8 ----- 2% --- 7 ----- 4% - 1
Others ------ 78 --- 24% -- 52 --- 32%
Totals ---- 329 - 100% - 161 - 100%
167 • zzzz (by Sean on 2009-07-02 14:26:49 GMT from United States)
Now do "mentioned by (fill in the blank)" or "anonymous."
C. Martin "mentions" Vector more often than any other distro (no stats or chart to back that up) as far as I remember.
If she worked for BLAG then we'd hear more of that distro from her.
(waiting for Mandriva "mention" stats from Adam).
LOL, etc...
168 • C.Martin (by Tom on 2009-07-02 14:54:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yes she does mention Vector more than any other distro. But she also mentions a lot more distros than almost anyone else in here anyway and when she does mention them it's often more interesting detail than a simple list of distros. I can give you stats but the first time she mentioned Vector this week was after someone asked her specifically a specific question about Vector. She hadn't mentioned it before that.
169 • Users "mentioning" distros (by Pearson on 2009-07-02 15:18:28 GMT from United States)
I've tried to stay out of the discussion/sniping.
You wanna know *why* Caitlyn, Tom, Adam and others mention certain distros so often? It's because... that's what they're familiar with! They use the distro(s) that they like. Because they like them, they are *very* familiar with them. When they try to help, offer advice, or just talk then they do so from the context of what they know. Sometimes they'll mention "their" distro to give context (e.g. "I don't know about the distro you're using, but in Distro X it works this way"), sometimes it's to reach a common ground ("since that's not working for you, can you try Distro X and see what your results are?").
Sometimes, like the first post this week, they just mention a distro. *shrug* Big deal.
170 • @#169 (by Sean on 2009-07-02 15:52:04 GMT from United States)
So then, Pearson, you feel that discussion about the "mention" of distros, particularly by those involved in the development of those distros, is not warranted at all and should not be allowed here?
Or that those who do discuss such things should be allowed to here but are a bunch of malcontents with few or no redeeming qualities?
171 • @#170 re: Users "mentioning" distros (by Pearson on 2009-07-02 16:03:22 GMT from United States)
Please don't put words in my mouth. I believe neither of those choices.
It does appear to me that, to some, the line between "fanboy-ism" and merely "mentioning" a distro has been grayed to the point of being indistinguishable.
In my perception, there have been very few out-of-the-blue mentions of any one distribution. Bashing distros seems to be more common (but not too bad lately).
172 • distro mentioning lunacy (by hab on 2009-07-02 16:36:43 GMT from Canada)
Just to supplement what pearson said, this page is after all DistrowatchWeekly comments section!
It strikes me that one can hardly watch, learn and experience distros without commenting on them and actually perhaps even mentioning a distro's name. Yes, we have all heard people going on and on about their shiny, new plaything but that is really not what we are discussing here.
I have read comments here after some posting by caitlyn, which by the way are frequently to aid somebody with a problem or to disseminate new info, that then attack her for mentioning something like vector linux. Perhaps a somewhat more mature point of view might be considered.
I enjoy the discussion and wordplay going on in these comments, but someones occasional descent into adolescence does provide shall we say an element of humour.
cheers
173 • #171 (by Homer Simpson on 2009-07-02 17:11:08 GMT from United States)
Please read the header at the top of the page: "Put the 'FUN' Back Into Computing..."
Last weeks comments were intolerably boring. They just went on and on about "mono". I don't even know what that is(does someone want to explain why I should care about it?) Let's have FUN here and be a little serious but for cryin' out loud, get a sense of humour. Are we all really a bunch of stodgy, humourless, malcontents? Actually don't answer that...DOH!
I admit, I like to tweak Caitlyn sometimes because she always fights back with such intense ferocity it's interesting. I can't help but wonder what's going on there. Really, what is "mono"?(no smart remarks about how you got it in university please).
174 • @159 (by Adam Williamson on 2009-07-02 17:17:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
Because on some cards, PCM _doesn't_ do the job (and on some it doesn't exist at all, notably simple USB audio adapters like one I have at home).
What's happening with this (and this is actually in PulseAudio as of very recently, but not in any released distro yet AFAIK) is that, where both Master and PCM are present, PA will have some logic to combine the two into one 'super-control', so the single PA slider scales from Master / PCM 0/0 to 100/100 (well, really, it'll be using dB levels, not %, but let's not confuse things further...), giving you more granularity of control. That's the best way to use the two of them.
175 • Pearson's mouth (by Sean on 2009-07-02 17:43:17 GMT from United States)
It would be "putting words in your mouth" if there were no question marks at the end of my sentences.
Those are questions, not statements.
176 • @#173 re: What is Mono? (by Pearson on 2009-07-02 18:30:55 GMT from United States)
As I understand it, Mono is an open source implementation of Microsoft's .NET technology (which I think Microsoft developed as soon as they found out that they couldn't take over Java). Much of the fear about mono is that Microsoft will claim copyright infringement.
More information can be found at the mono home page at http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page. Click Start and the "what is mono?".
You can also find out about it, including some of the patent concerns, in the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_(software)
177 • @174 (by Anonymous on 2009-07-02 19:33:18 GMT from United States)
I always thought the best way to use Pulse Audio was to completely remove it and Alsa from your system and just install 4Front's OSS, which surprisingly enough is a sane sound system without having to deal with crack adled developers that seem to believe that adding another layer to an already bad system is a good thing.
But to each his own...
178 • linux audio impairment apropos #177 (by hab on 2009-07-02 19:56:16 GMT from Canada)
Here is info on 4Front's OSS: http://www.opensound.com/
And a link from that page to here: http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/06/state-of-sound-in-linux-not-so-sorry.html, that seems to explain the situation somewhat.
Plus a bonus.
Has nice somewhat abstractish looking colour diagrams!
ciao
179 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-02 20:27:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just a quick request...could you please do a "ref #?" when making a suitable/unsuitable reply/reposte...it makes it so much easier to follow a particular thread, thanks.
180 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-02 21:35:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
for those interested...
http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/hosted/showArticle.jhtml...
181 • RE #173, 176 .net (by Anonymous on 2009-07-02 21:43:29 GMT from United States)
My understanding was take propitary C++ and add J++ and make two zeros look like a ++ or make a lose/lose look to them like a win/win. Add up enough loosers and maybe someone will make it a winner out of it but it won't be M$ and they don't care they already got the $800 per user.
182 • #176 (by Homer S. on 2009-07-03 01:04:15 GMT from United States)
Oh yeah. I remember reading about this quite a while ago. I can't believe it is still such a "hot button" issue. Thanks for those links. I learned something, or relearneded some stuff. DOH! (obligatory "DOH")
183 • Sugar as a Desktop choice (by RollMeAway on 2009-07-03 01:57:53 GMT from United States)
After trying http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick last week, I have since installed Sugar as a desktop (like gnome, kde, lxde, e17, etc) on a fresh installation of Fedora 11. It is selected at login, like any other desktop.
My attempts to install on debian-sid and ubuntu9.04 failed. Perhaps because both were kde installations, and sugar is gnome based? I have read SUSE also has a version.
Originally developed by Fedora for the OLPC project, it is now being pushed as another desktop for any computer.
There was a sugar booth at LinuxTag-2009. Ladislav, did you by chance visit? If so your impressions?
I had a very hard time adjusting to this desktop. For me it is NOT intuitive. I had to use a tutorial for the interface before I could navigate. It appears to be in early development for general desktops, perhaps I should just wait.
Maybe I need to find some kids to show me how useful it is.
Anyone here have some experience to share?
184 • about review (by Andy on 2009-07-03 03:10:46 GMT from Thailand)
any review has one big deficiency:
it should weight more the needs of a n00b user! What it means?
Normally people like to work with the pc, at least they have a printer,
often a scanner, a webcam and and some more general useful stuff.
One issue is Linux support with drivers, and if driver is available, it
is as .deb or . rpm most probable. The same is true for software,
beside .tar which is not useful for anybody.
So first question, with a high importance: is it possible in the distro
under test, to install .deb or .rpm drivers/ software.
If not possible, make clear: live and die with the repository, and forget
most of peripheral hardware!
185 • PulseAudio again - #75, 159, 174 (by gnomic on 2009-07-03 03:17:34 GMT from New Zealand)
OK, thanks for the information on PA and the volume problem. I had no idea crack was to blame ;-) However it has been a bugbear, and it's pleasing to hear that this may be getting some attention. It seems like the sort of issue that might cause a newbie to discard Linux on the first pass, and an example of hoped-for progress effectively causing the end user experience to go backwards at least initially. It's especially annoying when no alternative mixer can be found.
186 • No subject (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-03 03:26:09 GMT from United States)
@183: I installed Sugar on Ubuntu 8.04 a while back. Not the perfect implementation. Definitely interesting.
I can't say I'd use it, personally, but it seems like a fun little gizmo to learn and play with.
@184: If you ask me (which no one is) the concept of a "review" for a Linux OS is becoming a bit pointless. Especially in mainstream media, where it's either "Linux is simply terrible and should stay on the servers" or "Linux will conquer the world in about five minutes and thirdy-nine seconds with nothing but a gig of RAM and a can of creme soda." Yawn both ways.
I liked TechieMoe's reviews, and I do enjoy reading the Distrowatch articles, but the view (as was everyone's) is that if they magically have a machine that doesn't work (which happens, oddly enough) it's suddenly the distro's fault. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Drivers especially can be murky waters, which makes me which that reviewing Linux OS's is a dying breed of animal. It's so hard to have a broad scope of hardware to test that a real "review" would entail that it's just not feasible.
I prefer the sp-called "Ubuntu circus" reviews in the form of spamming the release notes everywhere. Yee haw!
187 • older computer (by Marcy Morris on 2009-07-03 11:11:19 GMT from United States)
I have a very old computer trying vista basic and it is slow. A friend said linux has the ability to change that so I googled and found many web sites about linux. I need a small one for this old computer but it still has to be able to stream video and have multi media etc. Which one to choose? I can buy it so it doesn t have to be a free version.
thank you in advance! M.M.
188 • #187 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-03 12:24:05 GMT from United States)
Could you give us some details? How much RAM do you have? How big is the hard drive? What processor does it have? Are you concerned about wireless? You may have to try several different versions of Linux to find the one that works best on your machine. All of the distros listed on DistroWatch are very nice. It basically depends on what your machine will handle and what your preferences are.
189 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-03 12:46:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
Rer #187
EV makes a good point...Linux can be choosy about hardware or lack of RAM sometimes.
However, your condition of needing to handle media stuff prompts a suggestion of Mint. This distro has lot of plugins/codecs/doodads so to speak already loaded.
I have to say i'm not sure about a commercial DVD tho.
Hope that's enough of a start for you.
190 • @ 187 Marcy Morris (by Tom on 2009-07-03 13:02:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
There are many different versions of linux (we call them distros) that could be worth trying. Without knowing details of your machine but given that Vista just about works i would suggest trying Ubuntu as a good, well supported, entry level distro and install it as a dual-boot so that you still have Vista available. The 32bit desktop version is likely to be the best version to try. Some guides to help
http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BurningIsoHowto
Cheap cds that you can only buy in bundles of 10 (because they are so cheap) seem to be better for this than more expensive types, i get mine from a supermarket when getting my groceries. *shrugs*
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootFromCD
The option to "Try Ubuntu without making changes to this machine" should get you to a working desktop comparable to Vista, we call this a "LiveCd session" and most distros have this as the default option from booting up from their Cd. It is usually good to demo the distro and see that it works on your machine, if it doesn't then try the next distro but Ubuntu normally will work. Then install as a dual-boot
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsDualBoot
finally add in the multimedia components by working through this guide
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Medibuntu
If you are an artist or programmer or have a machine with less than 700MHz cpu, 512Mb ram and 15Gb hard-drive space free to give it then you might find Wolvix Hunter 1.1.0 easier to install, it's good for learning 'how to' install linux as it gives an overview of the install process right from the start whereas many just give one step at a time. These two guides will show how to easily compare the many different distros available and show one of the reasons DistroWatch is such a good site for comparing distros
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=wolvix
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntu
If possible i would recommend trying Ubuntu first. When yo get a little more used to linux then you might find a different distro suits your needs better but Ubuntu seems to be the best general purpose entry level distro at the moment. I'm sure many prefer other distros tho. The trick is to try pretty much any distro as a LiveCd session and then install as dual-boot but don't force yourself to stick with your first choice, explore ;) Linux is about free choice, variety and intelligent use of resources available, yes it will make much better use of your ram and stuff and will work much faster at almost all tasks :)
I hope this helps!
Good luck and regards from
Tom :)
191 • @189 & 190 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-03 13:44:29 GMT from United States)
In addition to Mint, Ubuntu (I have this on my machine and like it a lot), and Wolvix, I would suggest the following:
1. Mepis 8.0
2. AntiX 8 - Intifada
3. Puppy
4. PCLinuxOS
5. Zenwalk
6. Vector
7. Kubuntu
192 • Or (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-03 14:30:47 GMT from United States)
Or 187 could use Wubi.
http://wubi-installer.org/
Run and install that, and let it download and configure Ubuntu for you. Very, very easy, and you won't hurt Windows Vista doing it.
193 • RE:#187 (by Anonymous on 2009-07-03 14:37:51 GMT from Canada)
Ubuntu has the very great advantage for a person new to linux that there are a number of books for it.
Make sure you get the book for the latest version (9.04 I believe)
194 • Taking stock! (by hab on 2009-07-03 14:54:37 GMT from Canada)
Another complete cockup for ms! See here: http://blogs.computerworld.com/london_stock_exchange_to_abandon_failed_windows_platform
Somehow i can't use the terms windows and mission critical in the same sentence and keep a straight face
Brightens my day a bit tho!
cheers:
195 • best linux for this computer (by Mandy Morris on 2009-07-03 15:53:31 GMT from United States)
Wow I was surprised to see so many different answers. I didn't put the details about this computer in because I did not know it was necessary other than old and slow. :)
It has 512 megabytes of ram and a 80 gigabyte hard drive and a nividia graphics card 5200 model.
I was advised to stay away from ubuntu and fedora and zandros I think because they are too big for this computer or too slow.
I will start with the first suggestion and send for the new mint linux.
Thank you all for information! :) M.M.
196 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-03 16:15:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref #195
You changed your name!
Ref your 512MB ram...IF at all possible strongly recommend you install at least 1GB (ie another 512MB wafer) if the machine can fit it in, or mother board will accept it.
Top Tip: unless you are au fait with the insides of your machine it is a shrewd notion to let the man/lady in the shop do it for you.
And, read up on Mint 'til the media arrives on your doormat. If you are unsure how to do the installation bit, do not worry...there are terrabytes of good info on how to do it...just google; or you can look at some of the youtube tutorials for installing a distro. The tutorials might not portray Mint per se but you'll get a general idea.
Best of luck.
Ref #194
Hab, thanks for that gem...now we know why we are all in a financial pickle...MS...again.
197 • re#195 (by hab on 2009-07-03 16:49:09 GMT from Canada)
.......Still!
h
198 • best linux for this computer (by RollMeAway on 2009-07-03 17:19:01 GMT from United States)
@195
I have a couple of machines with the same specs.
Any thing with KDE4 is a bad choice. Not enough ram.
I suggest:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=pclinuxos
The 2009.2 version will run perfectly for you, in 512 MB or ram,
and is very user friendly. It is also LIVE, meaning try first without installing.
Good Luck to you.
199 • the linux to use (by Mandy Morris on 2009-07-03 17:30:53 GMT from United States)
Ha yep I use Marcy in the work emails and Mandy online website bbs usually. I'm Marcela Amanda so there is some leeway. :)
I was hoping that my choice of mint would not make people argue about it (I read almost all of the posting in here). I sent the computer details in here hoping that would clarify what I have and then looked at the mint site and it looks like my "specs" are ok for it.
I could read more about it. But I did order it already in their latest version.
200 • #192 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-03 18:45:52 GMT from United States)
Thanks for posting that Wubi information. I tried it and I am using Ubuntu right now. I have a little over 300 mb RAM and a 40G hard drive. I am using a dual boot with Win XP. It really was as simple as downloading that Wubi thing and clicking on it. Now performance is nothing to write home about but it does work. I might run down and grab an extra Gig of RAM.
201 • #199 - Linux for older, slower hardware (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-03 19:08:10 GMT from United States)
I'm a little late joining the discussion. Unfortunately you left out the processor speed so nobody has the specs needed to make a good recommendation. If Ubuntu. Fedora, and Xandros are expected to be "too slow" the Linux Mint will be no better. It is based on Ubuntu and has not been optimized for performance on legacy hardware. I'm afraid you are in for a serious disappointment.
The suggestion to upgrade memory is generally a good one but let's not forget that on some older hardware 512MB might just be maximum memory.
I probably would recommend Vector Linux Standard 6.0. It is generally faster on older hardware and it has a very open, welcoming, and newcomer friendly community. My second choice would be Zenwalk. Wolvix 1.1.0 is really dated now and I probably would wait until 2.0 is release before recommending it again.
202 • mind or ? (by Mandy Morris on 2009-07-03 19:26:43 GMT from United States)
The cpu in that home computer is 1.1 mega hertz intel made in 1999.
The ubuntu inside of mint I did not know about. As I said I sure need to learn more.
Maybe another recommendation will come. I will be on that computer tonight again.
I am told to down load instead of send for cd now. Maybe that is next.
203 • wubi (by Tom on 2009-07-03 19:27:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
The Wubi is like building a house on shifting sands and relies on too many Windows systems working perfectly and co-operating with linux - something that microsquish is not traditionally famous for.
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsDualBoot
Ubuntu really needs more than 512Mb ram but will probably work, it may even seem quite fast in comparison! lol. Mint is excellent and is based on Ubuntu but has more multimedia support "out of the box". Unfortunately it's difficult to access the Ubuntu community but it does have it's own forums & the Ubuntu books are likely to help with Mint too, go for it. My neighbour is thoroughly enjoying Mint :) As with any distro it's worth running a LiveCd session of it before installing it & then the dual-boot as described in the link keeps your system flexible, giving you chance to get used to linux at your own pace.
Xubuntu would be pretty perfect on this machine, if Mint doesn't quite seem right, it's mainstream Ubuntu but officially only needs 192Mb ram although i would say more like 256Mb, anyway 512Mb is plenty for it.
nVidia graphics cards seem to run games a lot better under Wine than ati cards (guess which kind i've got? Yup, it's ati)
Regarding earlier comments this week - we are not always that bad.
204 • download (by Tom on 2009-07-03 19:34:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yeh, it's usually better to download a distro if you can, here's the link for Xubuntu but i still think Mint is worth a good try
http://www.xubuntu.org/get
If you haven't got broadband Ubuntu also do a free cd delivery service although this can take months to arrive
https://shipit.ubuntu.com/
they take special requests and might even send an Xubuntu
205 • @203 (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-03 20:30:52 GMT from United States)
Eh? I used Wubi for all of 8.04 and most of 8.10 full-time without any "shifting sands." Has there been a development since then that I missed?
"We are not that bad."...until someone mentions Mono. ;)
Also, I was about to say what Caitlyn was. Mint is fatter than Ubuntu by a sliver. Xubuntu isn't too bad.
206 • Mint and Zenwalk (by M.M. on 2009-07-03 22:20:27 GMT from United States)
Well we still like the mint idea and then I read about zen walk. It says it is "light" and that multimedia is emphasized. I like that for this old computer.
I will download both (I have a burner). I will install them one at a time and tinker with mint first. This is fun and I will come here right after the mint 7 is in. :)
207 • Mandy's Computer (by M. McNabb on 2009-07-03 23:09:17 GMT from United States)
Hi Mandy,
If it's made in 1999 and 1.1Ghz, then you probably have a Pentium III in there. You may indeed be maxed out on ram, but really 512MB is not that bad. For your hard drive, 80GB will fit ANY Linux you want to try as most only take around 1-3GB.
For newcomers to Linux, sticking with a well tested distribution and/or one with a great user community would be really important.
Installing extra software that you might want and running updates is dependent on the Linux system's packager and for an older computer like yours, the Debian packaging system used in Debian and Ubunutu-based distributions would be better than the rpm system which can take longer on a slower computer.
I think Ubuntu would be a good choice both for your older computer and for a big support community (and lots of books as mentioned above.) They will send you installation disks for free if you want.
In my experience, that computer should run Ubuntu fine. Especially if you install the NVidia graphics driver. Probably your slowest experience on it will be web browsing where there are so many many flash animations now. For your computer for web browsing, I would use Firefox and install the AdBlock Plus Add-on. It helps a ton for speeding up web browsing on slower computers.
Good luck and a big "Welcome" to linux I hope you like it!
208 • #206 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-03 23:29:45 GMT from United States)
Mint is a good choice. I actually have to partly disagree with Tom about using wubi (so far anyway. It may all fall apart later, but so far so good...). I did the dual install with Ubuntu and at first it was slow but after I installed the auto updates it runs very nicely. I have 300+ megabytes of RAM and a 1.70 ghz processor. My preference would actually be for Vector or Zenwalk though. I would start with Zenwalk. Please don't overlook AntiX and Puppy. Heck try several and enjoy. It's also nice that you paid for your cd and are supporting the community. I really hope you have a nice experience.
209 • Xubuntu, Vector, community, and support (for M.M. mainly) (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-04 04:10:03 GMT from United States)
A year ago I might have agreed with the recommendations for Xubuntu. I can't at this point. Your machine is very close to my Toshiba Satellite 1805-S204 (1GHz Intel Celeron processor, 512MB of RAM) and Xubuntu is pretty darned sluggish on that box. You definitely don't want Mint, Debian, or Ubuntu for the same reasons.
The community around Vector Linux is very, very friendly and welcoming to newcomers. I agree with M. McNabb that will be important to you particularly as you are going to have questions. The Vector community and forums are one of the things that attracted me to the distro in the first place maybe nine years ago. It's been around for more than a decade and is very much optimized for hardware like yours. (In fairness, so is Zenwalk.) It has a graphical installer that makes getting it installed and configured pretty darned easy. Perhaps most importantly it won't be slow on your machine and has plenty of multimedia apps in the repository.
The graphical package manager, gslapt, functions almost the same way as Synaptic, used by Ubuntu, Mint, and Debian. The 6.0 version also has a notification icon that will pop up on the panel in red to let you know when you need to do an upgrade (i.e.: for security patches) and getting it done is little more than clicking on that icon and clicking again to confirm you want to go ahead. This didn't exist in previous Vector versions and makes maintaining your system just as easy as it would be in Mint or Ubuntu.
Please not that I have nothing against Mint or Ubuntu. I usually recommend Mandriva for newcomers to Linux but , once again, with your hardware I'm just afraid ot will be slow. It's the specs of your hardware that are driving my recommendation.
210 • My hero... (by Tek Heretik on 2009-07-04 05:06:28 GMT from Canada)
is Bill Reynolds, I only wish I had his brains and his life. =(
211 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-04 08:56:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref security...this just in.
http://www.webuser.co.uk/news/285463.html
Not really a Linux problem thus far, but it demonstrates even Mac iPod stuff is an easy, apparently, target...lets hope the person who wrote the code played with stuffed animals as a nipper, penguin shaped ones...
212 • security (by Tom on 2009-07-04 09:07:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
Linux has about 300 known virus? A security exploit that was so well known that a web-page on "How To" use it was up for 2 years before the threat was able to be closed. However in all that time people got more kudos and fun from helping with decent apps rather than bothering with viruses. Windows has something like 30,000 virus's and so many exploits that it's not even worth starting to describe. Continue to take care of course, i'm just updating my anti-virus right now, but don't overstate the case just because we rarely get to see the excitement of a virus ;) By the way if anyone does find "Bliss" please let me know, i'd love to have a copy (in a safe box) and can't seem to find it anywhere ;) heheheh
213 • security again (by Tom on 2009-07-04 09:12:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
Interesting that they suggest the 'only' way to avoid it is to stay logged in to their site. In a couple of weeks there's going to be a surprise announcement about how popular their site is no doubt. Surely another way would be to switch the phone off and leave it in a draw, interesting that's not suggested!
214 • wubi (by Tom on 2009-07-04 09:19:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
If wubi is so incredibly robust then maybe we should all switch to ntfs, forget ext4, and maybe switch to the Windows boot-loader too. Heck if Windows is so robust that wubi works so well then why even bother using anything but Windows. Rofls, think about it despite the fact it's me saying it.
"We are not that bad.", nope, usually we're much worse! lol ;)
It's all the roman's fault, what have they ever done for us?
215 • re Caitlyn & advice (by Tom on 2009-07-04 09:20:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Caitlyn Martin is likely to be giving the best advice of any in here, i've often found that she can quickly back up any off-hand assertions.
Vector has the disadvantage that you can't LiveCd it's installer disc but it's reasonably fast to install as a dual-boot which is probably a better way to test out a distro anyway. If Caitlyn says to try Vector 1st then i would.
LiveCds tend to work slower than a proper install and its easy to wipe a full install by installing something else overwriting it. I echo Eldar's comment "Heck try several and enjoy."
As far as one distro's describing themselves as "light" that may often be at the expense of "fully featured" (= "has everything working easily"). A 1.1GHz machine with 512Mb ram is really not that old compared to many so you really don't need to go to the extremes here. I have a 350Mhz (=0.35GHz) which had 128Mb ram and worked many of the suggestions that everyone is making fine. Of course i didn't try any of the fully featured distros such as Xubuntu let alone Ubuntu.
Linux distros tend to neatly fall into one of about 8 main families although often a member of one family might appear to share more with a distro from a completely different family especially as we all use the same range of apps. Firefox looks about the same in all. Ok, BonEcho (which some often claim 'is' firefox) and seamonkey look a little different and perhaps are less attractive but are lighter and faster. Some clever people take a look at a distro and think it's nearly perfect so they take some bits away and add others hence arriving at a distro that 'is based on' whatever they started with and probably will be 'in the same family' as whatever they started with :) Even between families a lot of sharing goes on but inside a family it's much easier to share ideas, code, drivers, applications, translations and 'technical support user forums'. As with any family there are often a lot of arguments but these tend to drive innovations forward more rapidly.
People seem to be suggesting distros from the slackware family; wolvix, vector, zenwalk which may be the most noob-friendly members of that family but there are many others worth trying after a few months. I would really suggest installing wolvix first, to learn about installing, and then install Vector over the top because of Caitlyn's recommendation. Within about 3hours that should give you a great system you can really have fun with, most of that time will be leaving the computer to let it get on with it or to poke an occasional key. Slackware family tend to be very light, quite fast but perhaps slightly old releases they often balance this with the latest releases of apps which often take a while to filter into other families. It seems that Slackys tend to do less tweaking and so can filter stuff in faster.
I'm sorry to hear that distros from the Debian family are likely to be slow but would guess that they are considerably faster than Vista! As ubuntu is often in the press and even your local bookstore and library are likely to have books on it and Xubuntu is a smidgen smaller but Mint has more multimedia stuff built-in it would be great if you could start with one of these. However, no-one seems to suggest Debian itself which, unusually for its family, tends to be small and light but still has the high level of support & range of apps typical of it's family.
The crucial question, that no-one asked (oddly) is "What do you want the machine to do?". I think we've assumed that you don't want a server, preferring something for daily use, probably office type work, surfing the internet, emailing, perhaps multimedia and perhaps trying out a few light-weight linux games such as cards. If you're really interested in fps', strategic or otherwise heavy linux games that fits nicely too. If you want to run a specific Windows game or application then our advice might be a little different. Again for hardware you might plug in or use occasionally such as cameras, wiifi, bluetooth, phones, printers, other computers on a network. Probably tho the best answer is to try it with a distro and see, if there's a problem post questions in the forums and hunt around but move swiftly on to the next distro.
I suggested Wolvix Hunter 1.1.0 because it includes OpenOffice which is very much like M$ Office, the full firefox (not BonEcho) and tends to pick wiifi up quite quickly, crucially it's very keen not to advertise itself or make grand claims, they prefer to just get on with it quietly. Oithona is furious with me and Wolven has apparently given up even announcing his releases because he knows i'll jump up and down about it which makes him go all shy. Wolvix prefers night hunting in the hills rather than blustering in the party in the village. Glitzy glam sham is not it's thing ;)
Given that you can have 2 distros reading the same data as a triple-boot (multi-boot) along with Vista then i would suggest really trying anything now and explore others until you find something you really enjoy.
Good luck and regards all from
Tom :))
216 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-04 09:45:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref an earlier comment, #103, reference the Chinese version of a distro, RED FLAG...it seems saving cash and being totally independent of "western technology" was perhaps not the the only reason behind the project. I have in front of me a large portion of humble pie...
It seems Red Flag might come with a green lining, albeit hidden...see here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/5709977/Censorship-software...
I read a few weeks back that the Turkish state sponsored distro came under the aegis of their secret squirrels; now we read the Chinese are attempting to control the web in it's own territories. I would hazard a guess it's not for the obvious comparative anatomy sites...but the online news services.
You might have picked up that the official, self perpetuating, authorities in Iran were unhappy with its more secularly aware citizens picking up the BBC's Farsi broadcasts on the internet.
It had been thought hitherto that nothing could be done about plugging that gap...hmm...probably best to think again...
Two things that now spring to mind...if those two nations have thoughts on tracking/monitoring their citizens' use of the internet...are there any others???
The second is that the whole ethos of free software could be hijacked for base ends...so much for "free society"...
PS just seen your post # 212, Tom. I was under the impression MS suffers from over twice that figure on viruses, LOL. And as a reflection of the censorship theme...it seems to me just 'cos folk can write Linux code is no longer (?) a guarantee they are the "good guys".
To quote B Dylan..."times are achanging", just as they have always done.
217 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-04 10:04:09 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref 214, last sentence...see here...for those too young or not speaking another "Python" LOL.
http://www.schoolhistory.co.uk/year7links/doneforuse.shtml
218 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-04 10:22:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
Barely on topic at all...for those still puzzled about the "romans" thread
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatHaveTheRomansEverDoneForUs
But ON topic...ref your remark, Tom, about what MM wanted a distro for, check out #187. I picked up on the multimedia requirement, hence my suggestion of Mint.
I have used it on an ancient Toshi Sat running a mere 256 ram. 20GB h/d, clocking 1500Mhz. Had no probs at all, even the wifi just worked.
Hopefully, MM will report back total success with whatever distro works for her.
219 • Debian works for me (by Cloud8 on 2009-07-04 10:49:28 GMT from United States)
>215
I recommend Debian stable and related live-cds to test hardware. It sets minimum standard for an OS. I avoid personality products, because they can perish when one person loses interest, gets Montezuma's revenge, etc.
220 • @219 (by Jerry B. on 2009-07-04 12:20:09 GMT from United States)
Cloud8 said, "I avoid PERSONALITY PRODUCTS, because they can perish when one person loses interest..., etc.." (caps mine).
That's one of the most insightful remarks I've seen in here. I particularly like the two word phrase I capped therein.
But I install those PPs, maily because they take a lot of the work out of installing a non-PP linux such as Debian or Slackware or (gasp) Gentoo.
Long live Personality Products. :o)
221 • PPs (by Jerry B. on 2009-07-04 12:29:03 GMT from United States)
Now you've got me thinking (and that could be dangerous). A list or discussion highlighting those linux PPs that have changed or even vanished over the years would be interesting (to me at least).
I have seen Yoper, one of my early favorites, all but vanish from the scene (yes, I know it's "still there," and even listed as "active," but you know what I mean) for example.
222 • Eh? (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-04 12:29:32 GMT from United States)
@Tom: I must misunderstand your premise, because your post against Windows and Wubi makes little to no sense. Your advocacy of Wolvix also confuses me.
Wubi is a tool. It's not "wrong" to use it just because it interacts with Windows. I vastly prefer a full OS install because it's often much faster. But for people who cannot separate themselves from Windows, it's simply a useful way of installing Ubuntu or Mint, or introducing Linux to people who are not confident enough to reinstall the whole OS.
Why indeed would we switch to NTFS? This has nothing to do with the fact that Wubi works fairly decently at what it advertises. Please, coherency, thank you.
Furthermore, I assumed the poster simply wanted to test out a new platform for better performance. There's no reason to further complicate things, which is why I suggested Wubi (considering an OS install is a fairly large task that some people just cannot understand). Why are you suggesting s/he test out a Linux distribution from 2007? With outdated applications, drivers, kernel, etc.? Are you insane?!
@Caitlyn: As 219 said, Debian is actually pretty good for old computers. It's fairly light, even with Gnome. We are dealing with a Linux newbie, and Debian certainly would not the the right choice there, but it's a valid option for people who can configure it. And with LXDE, Debian soars.
223 • @222 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-04 13:19:12 GMT from United States)
I have to agree. It really seems quite odd to recommend Wolvix 1.1.0 at this point. Wolvix 2.0 is still beta but even that would be a better choice. I do agree with Caitlyn on either Vector or Zenwalk. I find the recommendation for Debian just plain puzzling. Debian is not for newbies. Here is one other suggestion that seems to have been overlooked, Pardus. You will never have to worry about support because it is sponsered by the government of Turkey. Just remember that if you are an English speaker you have to select English at boot time the first time you use it. Alternatively, you could learn Turkish which, while certainly a wonderful and life-enriching endeavor, can be a bit time consuming.
I also don't understand the criticism of wubi. I am really glad someone mentioned it because as I stated previously, I now have a dual boot machine. This is the second day and both WinXP and Ubuntu are living peacefully together on my machine. Now, if we could only wubi the rest of the world life would be great.
224 • #223 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-04 13:36:13 GMT from United States)
Apologies for the double post. Actually in reference to Pardus, I would wait the 13 days for the final release of the 2009 version. I am a big Pardus fan. Although...I don't recall Caitlyn mentioning it so I am wondering if there is something I don't know...anyway I am going to check out the new rc version.
225 • Wolvix 1.1.0 (by Tom on 2009-07-04 13:49:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
Nobody Important. Again my email address is right there and easy to use.
I am not sure what outdated applications, drivers, kernel Nobody Important is referring to - perhaps he/she hasn't tried Wolvix Hunter 1.1.0 and doesn't really have a clue what they're talking about. Even without updating it still works. Also a release from 2007 too old for a machine from 1999?
As for trying out different distros and then uninstalling them - try the wubi for that yourself on your own equipment & then tell me how noob friendly that is. Wubi is an excellent tool for certain circumstances, but not for a noob exploring different distros and it's not designed for long-term use. Again Nobody Important clearly has no experience but of course has to object to a side issue ignoring the main thrusts of the post.
A full proper install is a tiny little bit tougher but does prepare you for installing almost any other distro much more easily. The wubi is very tough to uninstall and leaves traces in the Windows registry (ever tried messing around with that?) and even the boot-loader is often left with an apparent option to boot into Ubuntu, although choosing that option takes you back into Windows. Anyway, Ubuntu has been pretty much discounted as an option so i really don't see why it's still being dragged up?
226 • Linux for a new user and on old/slow hardware (by Jan on 2009-07-04 14:01:12 GMT from Netherlands)
Ark-linux is (was) made to run on old hardware and assumes the user is a newby.
The distro claims to be a reliable (conventional) and save setup.
I just checked and found that they they still exist and their disto is live and they are working on improvements.
So this distro would be a good advice for a novice and at old hardware.
PS
At their FAQ-Development they offer and introduction to C and Qt.
Jan
227 • mint installed (by Mandy on 2009-07-04 14:27:01 GMT from United States)
Well here I am on my first linux! :) I installed the mint 6 version and it came up good, except I have been paring it down like the effects turned off. But it is much faster than vista basic for sure.
I made a mistake on the specs for this computer it is not 1.1 cpu but .9. The rest of it is right.
The components like screen and printer and stuff all work and I did not have to do anything but during the install type in what I know about them. Then after it was done I read more in the mint forum and ran apt-get update then upgrade and it put in 137 more items! Now it is up to date I guess.
I like this it is so different! Mind if I say it is cool? It is. :) Thank you for the suggesting and advice. I will stay on this I think no reason not to.
228 • WooooHoooo :)))) (by Tom on 2009-07-04 14:52:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
@ 227 Fantastic, welcome to linux-land :))
Minty cool, but exploring is always an option for later :)
229 • re#212 infection (by hab on 2009-07-04 15:02:43 GMT from Canada)
Tom i believe you may be somewhat low in the virii numbers you related.
In my understanding *nix has about 600 virii, most of them proof of concept where win and its ilk have over 300,000 examples. And growing!
I am trying to find the ref and will post it if i do.
Suffice to say *nix has nowhere near the exposure or indeed the risk that win has!
h
230 • No subject (by forest on 2009-07-04 16:05:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref #227
Well done Mandy.
(Ref #209...Caitlyn will be interested to know your machine, albeit a tad slow, runs as you had hoped. Using Vista as your yardstick is a useful note for comparison...accepted wisdom being that Vista needs a reasonably fast machine with, preferably, 2GB ram...in other words you would expect Vista to be slow on a machine of the spec you described.
That said I presume you were happy with the media operation...smooth video/sound play for example?)
The "danger" is now that you will read the short excerpts of copy Ladislav publishes with the distro details on the home page...and, as Tom so very rightly says, be curious enough to "just" take a look at another distro...and another...and another, LOL.
231 • Xandros (by Joe on 2009-07-04 16:19:39 GMT from United States)
Anyone know where Xandros is going in the future? I started with Corel Linux years ago, and have used Xandros 3.02 Standard and Business, and 4.0 (Home) and 4.1 (Professional). I have a couple of Asus Eee PCs and have tried 4.5. However, it seems to me that they've let their distro languish for a long time with no clear future to speak of.
Linspire had promise despite what some may think about their business relationship with Microsoft -- as they strove to provide full legal multimedia support for U.S. users. Their free distro, Freespire, also showed promise. When Xandros purchased Linspire from Michael Robertson, I had hopes that they would continue to support Linspire and Freespire, especially since they didn't seem to be actively supporting their own Xandros distro (other that for the initial Asus EeePC deployment).
Then, Linspire was dropped and Freespire doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. The only thing I've seen in active use is CNR.
The only active component in Xandros' arsenal seems to be Presto with it's reported fast boot time, ability to load and run on Windows PCs, and it's ability to allow users to share files between Presto and Windows. Was Linspire simply acquired to get the CNR tools to support Presto?
I just wish Xandros (the distro) would show some signs of life, or will it be abandoned as well? I'm getting a little tired of supporting these commercialized distros that are only supported after initial release. Too often, like dirt, they seem to dry up and blow away and leave us, the consumer, in a lurch.
Your thoughts?
232 • @227 (by Eyes-Only on 2009-07-04 16:51:25 GMT from United States)
Hi Mandy! And welcome to Linux-Land as well! I think you'll enjoy the ride as well, especially since you've already written how you've noticed a speed increase between your previous Vista install and current Mint install. That's one of the very first things folks new to Linux recognise right off the bat: The speed increase. And to think - you've chosen a distro here not normally thought of as "being fast" in the Linux World per se, but one made for ease and sheer beauty, to work immediately "out-of-the-box" upon install without any further effort. :)
We're really glad this is working out so well for you! -applause!-
Now get to know your Mint well - yet in the meantime Mandy - don't be afraid to continue exploring about with the LiveCDs which Tom, forest, Caitlyn, Nobody Important, Elder, and everyone else recommended just for "grins and giggles" so to speak, as it will give you an further view as to what just is out there, the different family development lines, etc. Before you know it you too will be helping others with their Linux questions and answers, knowing which distro is best for their particular situation, helping them to install, and best yet - introducing them to True Freedom in the use of their computers!
Computers: Meant to run, be enjoyed, and to have FUN - NOT always sitting there running virus scans, malware/adware scans, defrags, hopelessly slow... ad infinitim...
Again Mandy: Welcome to the Fun and Freedom of Linux!
Amicalement/Cheers!
Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"
( Sidenote to Tom & forest: I haven't forgotten either one of you. It's been a very rough week here which I hope to explain later... )
233 • @Mandy (by hab on 2009-07-04 17:17:16 GMT from Canada)
Mandy, let me add my congratulations on your success, welcome to the wonderful world of linux. I hope your experience shares the triumph and joy that i have with this wonderful os.
Ohhh...............the control!!!!!!
Remember, what you are seeing on the screen is just lipstick and makeup which can changed as easily as your own.
You might want to grab a copy of Matt Welsh's Running Linux. Probably the best and most comprehensive beginner's guide and beyond, there is to linux. I picked a copy of the first edition shortly after taking up linux and it proved invaluable. Heck, i still reference it occasionally!
Best of luck and happy learning!
h
234 • linux now (by Mandy on 2009-07-04 17:35:58 GMT from United States)
Tom and Hab and many others thank you again for helping me start with linux on positive notes.
This computer was originally windows 98. Then to ME with more media stuff then XP. XP ran well for a while but I made the mistake of covering it wtih a wal-mart purchased vista basic. I might not have switched to linux if I had kept my XP disc but tht is another story and I'm glad it worked this way because now I have a new computer world to find out about and explore and learn.
Everything works except the tool I read about to help configure called gconf-editor which has a setting according to mint forum called "low resources." That would make this computer even faster.
Error messages pop up when I try to start gconf-editor that I don't understand so I will post them in the forum.
thank you all again!!
Mandy
235 • Congrats to Mandy (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-07-04 18:02:23 GMT from United States)
First, Mandy, congratulations on getting Mint up and running. For most newcomers to Linux the installation and configuration can be one of the hardest parts. Sounds like you had no problems at all. You have the right idea about how to solve the gconf issue. The folks in the Linux Mint forum should be happy to help you with that. I don't know how many times I've read about someone giving up on Linux and saying that they were uncomfortable asking "strangers" in a forum for help. The whole point of a community support model is that we help each other.
The main thing right now is to stick with one distribution, in your case Mint, and use it as close to full time as possible. Don't worry about trying other distros right now. Get comfortable with the one you have and don't let the inevitable little frustrations involved in learning get to you.
236 • #234 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-04 18:30:45 GMT from United States)
I second what Caitlyn said. Please don't be put off by some of the sniping and nonsense that goes on here at times. When "push comes to shove", we all sort of come together and do the right thing(let me re-emphasize, "sort of"). DistroWatch is a great resource to have at your disposal. If you get stuck, even the meanest old curmudgeon among us will give you a "boot" in the right direction. Don't forget to participate in the Mint forums and get to know your fellow "Minters". Good luck and most of all, have fun and enjoy your new endeavor.
237 • PCLinuxOS 2009.2 (by 1linuxfreak on 2009-07-04 19:27:55 GMT from United States)
Stay away from PCLinuxOS 2009.2 , it is outdated antiquated , relic of a OS .
Even though it is a spin off of Mandriva it has none of the new things that would draw someone to the Distro .
Even after commenting on their Forum and being ban , because I pointed out that PCLinuxOS needed to step up it's game and implement KDE 4 .
Silence the one , then silencing the masses will be easy .===
Mr Linux Freak,
You are really pushing the limits of civility in our forums. Calling people dinosaurs and slackers because they don't want or need bleeding edge is beyond belief. Then when an apology is requested you say 'apology accepted'.
I'm not sure who you think you are, but stirring the pot in our forums is not a thing I would recommend. ====A human being entitled to their opinion !
Hopefully I have made myself clear as crystal. Next time you act out of line, you will be in the sin-bin for 30 days.
P.S. You still owe some people an apology. This is our home, and to come in and act rude requires an apology from you.
Cindy aka, Linuxera
Don't like threats !
No thanks , ban me then .
Your are rude and a power freak I can see .
I have used PCLinuxOS from its start (so this is my house as well) and you treat me as if I am a wrong in pointing out that PCLinuxOS is behind times , I was not calling people dinosaurs or slackers , just the act of not welcoming KDE4 , you remind me of one of my children , does not get the fact a person is not calling them something but the ACT of doing .
I see why Developers left to form Unity Linux !
Happy 4th !
238 • #237 (by Yessi Jasager on 2009-07-04 19:49:34 GMT from Germany)
Oh my goodness! I have never seen this kind of thing on DistroWatch! This is shocking comments! This is only a place for some nice peoples to come and talk not for this mean-hearted comments. I like all the peoples here and Caitlyn is so smart too. I try Vector for her talking about it a lot and it is so good too. I read this part lot of times but don't make comment because my English so bad. I get help from all you telling certain tips. Thank you all so much.
239 • @237 (by Joe on 2009-07-04 21:08:34 GMT from United States)
Although I personally prefer Gnome, I liked the work that Neal Brooks did to implement the KDE 3 version of PCLinuxOS 2009.2. I use KDE as well as Gnome and feel comfortable with version 3.5 -- a mature and solid implementation of the KDE desktop. When I looked into the new release at http://www.pclinuxos.com, they clearly stated that KDE4 would be added to the repository in July 2009, and that PCLinuxOS 2009.3 would include KDE4 and updated kernel. So, until then, I'll explore and enjoy the most recent PCLinuxOS releases of Gnome, KDE3, MiniMe, and Gnome Zen Mini, and will patiently await 2009.3. Won't be long now.
240 • @Tom (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-04 21:41:45 GMT from United States)
You were the one who began attacking my initial suggestion; I am only mounting defenses. If you do not like such a conversation, please, next time, keep your comments private, and I will do the same.
Again, I am puzzled as to where your allegations against Wubi stem from. I've never had it leave behind an Ubuntu option in the bootloader; that's a new one. Perhaps you should report a bug? Same with the registry issues - though I'd argue that the registry itself is an issue, but that's another topic altogether.
And again, Wolvix was the second Linux distribution I ever tried. My computer at the time was around what our Linux newbie poster is discussing P3 CPU, 512 MB RAM), and yes, the new kernel and drivers does make life easier.
Ever heard of something called Wi-Fi? Yeah, major Wi-Fi support came around kernel 2.6.27, which, if I recall correctly, was not released in 2007. And how would you, as a Linux newbie, like to fire up a new operating system and find that Firefox is at 2.0? I remain ignorant to Wolvix's updating policies, but out of the box, 1.1.0 is woefully aged.
I agree with Caitlyn's original suggestion of Vector. It would be more apt to her needs, and current to boot. Not a LiveCD, unfortunately, but easy as cake to install.
I would advocate Wolvix 2.0 is it were not beta. It is a fine OS. But as it is, with an outdated release from 2007, I question the validity of the idea.
241 • @237 (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-04 21:44:35 GMT from United States)
The PCLinuxOS team and forums are very much a locked box. Expect a good OS, but don't expect a loving community. Dissenting opinions have frequently been banned, removed, or blemished from the forums time and time again.
2009.2 was a good release, though. There are still some of us who like KDE 3.5.
242 • @192 @240 (by Joe on 2009-07-04 21:48:41 GMT from United States)
Wubi is what got me thinking about Presto, which got me thinking about Xandros and where their headed (or not headed). (@231).
243 • Mandy is happy (by anticapitalista on 2009-07-04 22:21:36 GMT from Greece)
Well it seems that Mandy is happy with the chosen linux. Have fun with it!
Elder Vintner got it right up there. Try out what you want and you'll find a linux suitable for you.
244 • Hear hear! (by Nobody Important on 2009-07-04 23:13:59 GMT from United States)
@242: I agree with your original post. The commercial distros come and go. I don't think we've heard much from the company.
@243: I agree with you as well. Linux is all about choice and variety. I just migrated all of my Ubuntu installations to Fedora the other day, just because I wanted something different.
@Tom: I feel I came over too antagonistic in my post, re-reading it. Don't consider me an enemy or an opponent; neither of us have nothing to gain from anger and argument. I apologize.
245 • RE: 237 (by Anonymous on 2009-07-05 02:27:34 GMT from United States)
Well of course you didn't do anything wrong by calling forum members names and being totally ignorant concerning the on going developments of PCLOS. Early adopters are already running KDE 4 on PCLOS. Packages went up this weekend though they need some tender loving care.
246 • pclinux vs KDE4 (by RollMeAway on 2009-07-05 03:41:56 GMT from United States)
@237
Not everyone is enamored by KDE4. I'm one of them.
I really appreciate Debian Lenny, Pclinux, and Mepis.
They all have a solid, stable KDE3.
Everything works, and works well, with dozens of extra apps.
All run good in 512 MB ram.
I have no doubt KDE4 will someday be as stable, but
it will never run in 512 MB ram. I have seen KDE4 using swap with 1 GB ram!
I have no use for 'wobbly windows', compiz, cube desktops etc.
I have no use for akonadi, strigi, or nepomuk. I know where my files are.
Yes, I know this is a rehash, but I had to vent. Not everyone wants a linux version of vista.
I have tried moving to gnome. Just can't get with the mindset.
I spend all my time resizing windows. Doesn't seem to be a way to remember.
I want a file manager front and center, not hidden.
Mint is the only distro I know of that don't hide the control-center!
Why spread it out over the menu maze?
And many more ....
I know KDE3 will "slowly wither on the vine", but many will enjoy it 'til then.
End of rant.
247 • PCLOS (by Sertse on 2009-07-05 05:20:36 GMT from Australia)
My opinion are pretty much the same as 241. Quality OS, forums are a *bit* (ok, a lot imo) moderated then I like, especially when it comes to criticism. Good to see PCLOS on track though, the announcement is an reassuring sign - I had some apprehensions on it's future after that developer spilt earlier. :)
Re: 246, etc I wonder how we'll all feel in a year from now, it'll possibly be KDE 4.5 by then, and people can rightfully expect it to be better then KDE 3.5 by then...
248 • @246 (by Joe on 2009-07-05 05:34:10 GMT from United States)
I'll second your comments on KDE 3.5. As I mentioned earlier (@239), KDE 3.5 is mature and stable. It runs great on my M700 laptops which are limited to 576MB (64MB on the systemboard and 2ea 256MB SIMMs). I don't have the option of upgrading these any further.
If all of the popular distros move to KDE4, I guess I'll either stick with Gnome or an older distro that still has KDE 3.5. In a pinch, I would consider moving to a LXDE, XFCE, or other desktop.
249 • 244 Nobody Important (by Tom on 2009-07-05 06:26:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hey, i'm sorry too *shakes hands* *buys pint*
250 • @ 246 KDE 4 (by Anonymous on 2009-07-05 07:35:59 GMT from United States)
"I have no use for akonadi, strigi, or nepomuk. I know where my files are."
Do you know if it is possible to build KDE 4 without that bloat?
251 • Linux Mint 7 KDE (by stuckinoregon on 2009-07-06 00:04:19 GMT from United States)
RC1 is out. Good stuff. Very responsive and no bugs to report so far.
252 • KDE4 (by RollMeAway on 2009-07-06 05:04:51 GMT from United States)
@247
By the time KDE4.5 gets here, it will require 2 GB ram, 4 GB swap, and minimum dual core processors. No doubt those with new, expensive computers will enjoy it.
@250
I've not seen any distro produce KDE4 without nepomuk. I believe it is embeded.
It can be disabled through 'Configure Desktop' / Advanced / Desktop search, but
the nepomukserver still runs.
253 • 24 • @11 - Best KDE4.2 Implementation (by Miq on 2009-06-29 16:08:45 GMT from Sw (by Anonymous on 2009-07-06 06:20:40 GMT from United States)
About Suse 11.1 as the best KDE-4, I would beg to differ!
Suse 11.1 is a good distro with GNOME, or even XFCE, but with KDE 4.x, it is not that great: lots of things just do not work, or work poorly (evn YAST2!).
I do love KDE 4.x visual performance, but I guess it will take a while for Suse to have a good release of KDE 4.x.
I do understand that the problems may very well due to KDE4, which still may not have reached a point of maturity, and tend to believe that may be the case, koz, I have seen posting similar to this one... for other distros along with KDE 4.x
Jeffersonian.
254 • #250 (by Xtyn on 2009-07-06 07:46:19 GMT from Romania)
Do you know if it is possible to build KDE 4 without that bloat?
Yes, it's called Gnome. :)
255 • @237 Behaviour, PCLinuxOS and KDE4 (by davecs on 2009-07-06 07:48:42 GMT from United Kingdom)
Someone comes barging into the forums, and starts throwing their weight around like a school bully, insulting ordinary forum members rather than arguing their case properly. Then they are warned privately about their behaviour, so immediately publish the warning on the site and carry on regardless. Well our policy now is initially a 30-day ban on posting. Some people take it on the chin and go on to be useful contributors to the forum. Others come crying to Distrowatch, and like the school bully, blame everyone but themselves when they have to face the prefect.
Incidentally there are plenty of people at the forum arguing for KDE4, and reporting things that are not right, and as long as they go about it in a civil manner, their views are welcome.
As for the future, you will be able to set your repositories to use KDE4 or stick with KDE3. So users will have the choice. The kde4 part of the repository is already being populated with packages, but don't expect everything to work seamlessly just yet. When it's ready there will be an announcement, I'm certain.
256 • KDE 4, etc (by Jerry B. on 2009-07-06 10:13:57 GMT from United States)
When a distro ships with KDE 4 is it not possible to replace the wm with KDE 3 or any other one the user chooses? Even XFCE? Fluxbox? from repositories?
Is this a non-issue? Or is there something about other window managers not being supported in a KDE 4 distro?
257 • KDE 4, etc.. (by Jerry B. on 2009-07-06 10:15:58 GMT from United States)
I see that my query was answered, at least with regard to one distro, in a post apparently being composed simultaneously as mine and posted before it. :o)
258 • #255/237 (by Elder Vintner on 2009-07-06 10:17:07 GMT from United States)
Offering KDE3 as well as KDE4 seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I like KDE4 on my fast machine with loads of RAM. I also appreciate Openbox, Fluxbox, Enlightenment, and others. Some people can't use distros with heavy window managers because of hardware limitations. I do think there should always be an alternative light-weight window manager (or managers) for these people. I have found that almost all of the popular distros offer more than one window manager. If not officially then as a community edition.
#237 I don't think all of this anger is productive. It seems that we humans have an innate resistance to the one thing that is most certain, change. Instead of just blowing up about how you dislike KDE4, why not find out what alternatives are available? If you are concerned about what the developers are doing with your favorite distro, why not voice those opinions in a concerned, rational, manner? I think you'll find that your opinion has been considered and reconsidered. These are the kinds of decisions that developers spend countless hours pondering.
The people who made KDE4 also put a lot of hard work into making a window manager that works and looks fantastic. This is the window manager I choose when I want to show off Linux to a friend who is not familiar with Linux. Everything has it's place. In 20 years, all of this going on about Windows and Linux will be forgotten by most as they will have merged into some new unforeseen amalgamation probably owned by Pepsi Cola. Ok, that's my nightmare scenario but who knows?
259 • at 255 • @237 Behaviour, (by chon on 2009-07-06 10:21:30 GMT from Thailand)
Davecs
I am aware of what happened there.
However , I think it would be nice to apply the same rules to the moderators.
Sometime ago, when I was threatened by a moderator by PM, or so it did feel, I seriously considered dropping pclos all together.
I hadn't posted for over 2 months because of the bad feeling I had.
I am over it now.
If the asshole ( read mod ), does it again, the world will hear about it in no uncertain words
For the rest, PCLinuxOS rocks, as far as I am concerned and I am looking forward to KDE4 a little later in the month
btw: my pclos forum name is not chon.
260 • #259 (by T. Phot on 2009-07-06 10:56:14 GMT from United States)
You guys should try a different distro. Wolvix is very nice. It uses Xfce as default. There are a lot of other choices for window managers in the repositories if you can point and click. The forums are very friendly and if you need help just post it. It is still in beta but don't worry about it, it's better than most final versions of other distros.
Number of Comments: 260
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