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1 • Interview (by ConstantObserver2 on 2009-02-02 08:51:56 GMT from United States)
Thank you for another exceptional DistroWatch and especially this week for the fantastic Interview with Linus Torvalds.
2 • Interview (by Greg on 2009-02-02 09:36:56 GMT from Greece)
Great interview. Thanks a lot for this brilliant DW issue.
3 • Feature Request: DW User Comments/Forums (by elimisteve at 2009-02-02 09:38:22 GMT from United States)
Would it be possible to set up forums on DW so we could discuss the release of each new distro version? I'm imagining a "User Comments (#)" link at the end of each new post, where #=the current number of comments, similar to Slashdot.
Would anyone else like this feature? Would it be simple enough to implement? Maybe funding the implementation of this feature could come from user donations to DW, who could then pass the funds to whoever personally does the work (if it's not Ladislav)?
What do you guys think?
4 • Re: 3 (by AbacusMonkey on 2009-02-02 09:56:16 GMT from Australia)
Hmmm I think this would bring alot of mindless chatter and pointless arguing to the Distrowatch site. Currently I find it informative and interesting, however a forum would eventually make people associate DW with biased hyperbole. Leave it how it is. It's worked for years.
5 • Great Interview from Linus (by Giovanni Alora on 2009-02-02 09:58:35 GMT from United States)
Wow... that is a great interview from Linus Torvalds. Oh... and he's a Fedora user :)
6 • @3 (by elimisteve at 2009-02-02 10:03:11 GMT from United States)
Maybe start a PayPal account (or an open source alternative, if it exists)?
7 • User Distro Comments (by Gene Venable on 2009-02-02 10:04:30 GMT from United States)
I would like to see user comments as each distro is released, as was suggested. Regardless, DistroWatch continues to be essential reading.
8 • Re: #3 (by Michael on 2009-02-02 10:06:49 GMT from United States)
I would really like that feature also. I have already raised that topic to Ladislav. Obviously (and probably for some good reason also) he does not like to go that road, because there might be too much spam involved.
However I would really appreciate that solution and would encourage having another thought about it. Thanks :-)
Regards,
Michael
9 • No subject (by Shashwat on 2009-02-02 10:09:36 GMT from India)
Awesome article once again :) Kudos to DWW :D
But why Openbox donations had been mentioned under 2008 donations list ?
Keep up the great work going :D
Regards
10 • +1 to having a forum at long last ! (by Hard Core Rikki on 2009-02-02 10:25:42 GMT from Russian Federation)
This is a thing that shouldve existed since long (I mentioned the topic on the near-desertic IRC last year. Reminds me I never got to email ladislav about it, haha ;p). A vBulletin on a subdomain would be excellent news.
Given the potential for massive joinings, the DW forum could maybe even serve as an official support forum for Linux distros (like small ones, who dont have enough exposure to). A shared memberlist could be fun for everyone, especially for discussion and support.
11 • Front-page forum (by ladislav on 2009-02-02 10:31:41 GMT from Taiwan)
Sorry guys - the front-page forums won't happen. Two reasons:
1. The front-page news is pure facts and I want to keep it that way. A forum or a comment section would add an (unnecessary) element of subjectivity.
2. Moderating a forum is a lot of tedious work. Unfortunately, there are too many destructive elements on the Internet and I just don't have the time and desire to police another forum.
Can we please drop the subject now?
12 • Torvalds choosing distros (by pongo on 2009-02-02 12:27:07 GMT from Germany)
Nice interview with Linus Torvalds. Torvalds seems to be a pretty ordinary GNU/Linux user when it comes to choosing distributions. First he starts with a comment that suggests he doesn't really care which distro he uses:
"Since I only really "use" a very limited set of programs, my choice of distribution is pretty arbitrary. My main requirement is that it's fairly easy to install and keep up-to-date, just so that I can mostly ignore it."
Then, in the end of his answer, he reveals that there are actually only two distros that he could ever consider even trying -- with a third distro mentioned as a potential fall-back option:
"That pretty much narrows it down to openSUSE and Fedora, with Ubuntu being a possible third one. And for the last few years, it has been Fedora."
I think most people are stuck to their favourite distro just like Torvalds. First you say it doesn't really matter which distro you use. But when you actually decide to choose a new distro to try out, you start making a list of things that you require from a really *good* distro. And then your list of distros starts to become shorter quite rapidly, and soon it contains only one or two distros that you are already familiar with. Of course, you don't say you try to avoid distros you're unfamiliar with but, instead, you rationalize your choices by actively looking for features where the distro you're currently using is known to be especially good at. Most of us are creatures of habit, just like Linus Torvalds, and we seem to have an in-built aversion to change.
Oh, Debian has decided to give us a Valentine's Day gift. That's excellent news! Then new versions of packages can start flowing into Unstable and Testing. And I can remove Experimental from the sources.list. :-)
13 • Great interview (by Gigi on 2009-02-02 12:33:50 GMT from United States)
Great interview. Thanks Chris.
oh about openbox:
I believe LXDE uses openbox as window manager by default so there should be a number of other distros, knoppix for example immediately jumps to mind.
14 • Debian's Release is a-comin'! (by lefty.crupps on 2009-02-02 13:15:32 GMT from United States)
> Oh, Debian has decided to give us a Valentine's Day gift. That's excellent news!
> Then new versions of packages can start flowing into Unstable and Testing. And
> I can remove Experimental from the sources.list. :-)
I second this; Debian on the desktop is my favorite but the branch freezes before a release always mean that we don't get much new in Testing for a looong time. KDE 4.2, newer versions of KOffice and Kontact, and OpenOffice 3.0 all sitting in Experimental, waiting to unleash their awesomeness on the desktop... it looks to be a good future for Free Software in general.
15 • KDE4.2 (by PaulB on 2009-02-02 13:52:59 GMT from United States)
I recently downloaded KDE 4.2 and see some mild improvement. BUT, the folks at KDE should probably listen to Linus, and stop treating the user as an idiot. KDE 3.5 had a program called kcontrol where most of the things required to set up a new distro were readily available. KDE 4 comes along and scatters the components of kcontrol to places unknown. (I think I have found most of them over the last few MONTHS.)
While this may not be treating the user like an idiot as badly as Gnome, it certainly doesn't facilitate easy set up. It is more like adding speed bumps to a race track.
16 • Netbook distros for laptop? (by Joe Biden on 2009-02-02 14:34:10 GMT from United States)
I posted last week a comment about an old laptop that was recently pulled back into duty (1 GHz processor with 256 MB RAM).
While AntiX works nicely, I'm wondering if there is a netbook distro that will install to a regular laptop. The reason I say that is that I like the interface that they provide. Easy Peasy looks very nice, as do several of the other Linux-based netbook OSes. My specs are similar to those of a low-end netbook, so I figure that it would worth trying one of them. I can't even run XFCE with such an old machine. All of my searches have come up empty.
17 • RE: 15 (by Anonymous on 2009-02-02 14:36:40 GMT from United States)
"While this may not be treating the user like an idiot as badly as Gnome"
I most strongly disagree with these statements. If KDE is your choice do not bash Gnome at the expense of the bugs and radical component changes of KDE 4.x.
The Startup button approach in KDE 4.x is more idiotic to me because of its Xp and Vista like approach.
18 • Linus (by Julio on 2009-02-02 14:36:56 GMT from United States)
I wonder why Linus prefers to use that horrible RPM stuff.
19 • Linus, KDE or GNOME? (by Azzorcist on 2009-02-02 14:40:51 GMT from United States)
Nice interview.
Btw, i'm still struggling for choosing the right distro for me. But, for sure, now i have chosen the DE that i love along many DE in Linux world, KDE4.
It's funny when you heard that Linus changed to GNOME because he's (if i'm not wrong) according to Thom Holwerda of OSNews the one encouraged people to use KDE.
Some bugs in KDE4 shouldn't taken as a reason to change to GNOME since (according to the interview above) one of his choice of distro (openSUSE/Fedora/Ubuntu) that is openSUSE uses both KDE3 & KDE4.
I think i'll wait for Mandriva 2009.1 'cause Mandriva well known for their choose of KDE as default desktop and i've already used Mandriva 2009 with KDE4 and it rocks. I'm sure it'd be better in 2009.1 as KDE 4.2 have been released.
20 • Kurumin: saravá (by Alex on 2009-02-02 14:49:27 GMT from Canada)
Kurumin was a great distro. Versions 4.x were incredibly tight and good, and I ended up using it more than the other established players around (I did prefer Kurumin over Ubuntu and Fedora until '07).
Morimoto, pessoal: Keep doing great work wherever you go, and be proud of the achievements of Kurumin.
21 • Real forums (by Joey on 2009-02-02 14:51:55 GMT from United States)
It'd be great to have real forums here with different distros as seperate discussion areas, etc. Similar to other linux forums around the net, but very special here given the history of Distrowatch.
The worries about spam, etc, are not well-founded anymore; that stuff is seldom or never seen on the forum sites with the best software, which a membership-driven forum could easily finance.
I think it's the next step in the ongoing evolution of Distrowatch.
22 • XFCE (by Jason on 2009-02-02 15:02:44 GMT from United States)
I'm surprised Linux hasn't tried XFCE, it does the desktop trick,yet just gets out of your way.
23 • 5th DWW of 2009 (by Brian B on 2009-02-02 15:05:28 GMT from United States)
Hmm.... very interesting. Thank you again for another great DWW, Chris.
I thought the interview with Linus was quite entertaining. I agree with him that having so many distributions is a good thing. I just wish that the distributions which are based on great ideas had more support, development, and a larger user base. There are so many distributions out there with terrific ideas, such as eLive. Man it is a beautiful and nice distro, it has just been in unstable development for almost a year now.
P.S. I love the Ubuntu guide. I appreciate having it so much. I might just buy the real copy both to support this guy and because it's such a good guide.
24 • Thanks (by GODhack on 2009-02-02 15:18:28 GMT from Lithuania)
Very interesting DistroWatch Weekly this time. ;)
And good decision to support Openbox, I use it dally.
---
I also have strong my opinion about "the year of the Linux desktop";
I believe that Linux now needs only good bug wiping in KDE 4, Open office 3 and wine and after this big changes will come.
On example until you throw 50 mb ppt file into OO and this ends in crash ppl for sure will not learn that ppt is bad, they blame OO. This have to be fixed devs like this or not.
25 • Linus! (by davemc on 2009-02-02 15:27:36 GMT from United States)
Great interview. I see some folks going off the deep end about Linus' choice for Distro's for now but these people should also read a bit closer at what he actually says. In a nutshell, he basically is saying that he does not have a favorite distro. I think this applies to most of us, but we all have some fondness for some over others at any given moment, and that can change too if ones favorite makes dumb choices. The one constant is that we ALL love GNU/Linux, and that really has nothing to do with any given distro, because of the modular design, and because the kernel is the one thing that ties it/us all together. Linus is the reason for all that, and we all revere him for that, and the spicy press interviews make for fun reading too!
26 • re:15 SystemSettings vs kcontrol (by nemo on 2009-02-02 15:58:15 GMT from United States)
even an idiot would understand 'System Settings' more than 'kcontrol'
27 • LT Distro choice (by nemo on 2009-02-02 16:01:14 GMT from United States)
LT's choice of distro is whoever tracks the latest kernel release. That's why Fedora is his choice.
28 • No subject (by foresr on 2009-02-02 16:09:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Dunno about favourite distros as such...I'm just glad about ANY distro I can get to install on my old clunkers, LOL.
That said, I believe having a distro on a usb stick gets around any of the old error message stuff...(and h/ds too proud to load owt but MS)...assuming you have a BIOS happy to boot off usb.
And if Linus reads this comments page...Cheers mate!!!
29 • DWW2009/5 Christmas FUTURE (by Z K Dabek on 2009-02-02 16:19:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
Enjoyed reading what Linus had to say in answer to your questions.
Have tried Suse [8.0-11.1], Debian [Sarge-Etch], Ubuntu [6.10-8.10], Sidux, CentOS [5.2], Slackware [10.0-12.2], Mandr[ake,iva] [9.0-2009.0], PClinuxOS [2007], Sabayon [3.0-3.3] but could not agree more with Linus's current choice of Fedora and Gnome. If KDE 3.5 were in Fedora I would still be using it since 4.2 still sucks. I did find the released versions (DVD) of Fedora [6-10] to be less than satisfactory until 2 months of updates and bugfixes were installed. Now I overlap the last three Fedora releases in Dickensian fashion as PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE and shift from the PRESENT to the FUTURE as stability and function is gained and as PAST becomes unsupported. This is necessary with the ~6month release cycle. Who knows what the FUTURE holds? One may need to change one's ways!!
30 • Choice (by Nobody Important on 2009-02-02 17:21:17 GMT from United States)
I suppost Linus' choice of Fedora. I use Ubuntu, but if it went down I'd use Fedora for sure. I only prefer Ubuntu more because Fedora's package manager feels weak compared to the DEB system, but that's a matter of taste.
Oh, and I dislike the forum idea. The DWW comments are hard enough to slog through.
31 • Openbox (by JAG on 2009-02-02 17:48:15 GMT from United States)
Here's a puppy based distro using Openbox.
http://puppylinux.org/downloads/puplets/boxpup
MD5 Checksum: 0672d60bad8914c4dd1be32185bb8562
Parent Puppy: Puppy Linux 4.1.2
ISO Size: 92MB
32 • @ 18 - Linus and RPM's (by DeniZen on 2009-02-02 18:12:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
Julio wrote:
"I wonder why Linus prefers to use that horrible RPM stuff".
Absolutely 101% perfect example of why Linux is about choice, and is superbly so.
I would guess answers might be
a: he likes it, and
b: - because package management is not _that_ important if you are actually _using_ your distro day to day, i.e. once you are installed, you have your apps and you are busy _using_ and not mainly tinkering about with it trying to break it. ;)
Clearly so, if Linus uses Fedora ;) cough!
OK, like many I prefer apt / synaptic, and tip my hat to pacman too - but thats just my bag.
Chris - Great Linus interview there - questions perfectly tailored for the likely interests of DW readers. Thanks.
33 • Mnt 6 (by J.B. on 2009-02-02 18:20:10 GMT from United States)
Our old PC (Gateway 2000, 1.2 Mhz cpu, nVidia fx5200 graphics card) seems to be pretty happy with Mint Linux 6 on the 80 Gb hard drive we put in today.
Had to disable all the cutesy compwiz stuff, etc, but it's working well.
I must also say that it is so far doing well on this Toshiba laptop with the crappy Realtek 8187b network adapter; so far so good (been about two hours, the connection on other distros usually is lost after a couple of hours or three).
It found my home network automagically and only needed the password.
Very nice distro!
34 • Agreed! (by Eyes-Only on 2009-02-02 18:33:40 GMT from United States)
I agree with the rest---great DWW Chris! I've looked forward to Mondays for the past 4 years (ever since moving over to Linux) and now even moreso. May you, Ladislav, and everyone else working behind the scenes, continue in making this place the Number One place on the net for Linux news!
Thanks so much to everyone involved.
Amicalement/Cheers,
Eyes-Only/"L'Peau-Rouge"
35 • Correction, LT interview, #16, #18 (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-02-02 18:51:11 GMT from United States)
Great DWW this week, especially the interview with Linus Torvalds. I've always looked for the smallest, lightest laptop. I see I'm in good company :)
One correction: Vector Linux does not use Openbox as a default desktop on any version or on any release. The default for Vector Linux Standard is Xfce, for Vector Linux SOHO it is KDE, and for Vector Linux Light ir is either IceWM (6.0) or JWM (5.9). Openbox is offered in 6.0 Standard and 5.9 Light as part of LXDE and can, of course, be used stand-alone.
#16: Yes, a netbook distro can be used on a standard laptop. I've done it with an old Toshiba. Most netbook distros add support for netbook devices but don't remove much in the way of anything you'd need on a standard laptop. Most netbooks have a lot of RAM (>= 512MB) compared to older laptops so I've found that some lightweight distros (like Vector Linux Light) to be faster.
#18: What on earth is wrong with rpm? I've built packages in Debian, rpm, Slackware, and Tukaani (lzma compressed Slackware with dependency checking) formats and IMHO Debian and rpm packages are about even in terms of flexibility, features and complexity. Both systems work exceptionally well. To call one "horrible" without explanation is silly at best.
Most of the bad press rpm gets usually has nothing to do with the package format or is about issues that were fixed a decade ago. Most issues today are usually bad repository management by the distro maintainer or pook packaging by a packager who knows just enough to be dangerous. That happens with Debian packages as well as rpm packages.
Finally, the choice of desktop environment and distro is always going to be based on personal preferences and individual needs. I find nothing wrong with someone who likes a different distro or who explains why a distro is just right for them. I find everything wrong with people who are disrespectful of those who don't like their favorite distro or who see the need to put down other choices.
I know there is a large anti-Ubuntu crowd but I haven't found anything better than Ubuntu Netbook Remix for a pre-installed Linux system on today's crop of netbooks. On my Sylvania g Meso it just plain works and it isn't crippled in any way unlike some other netbook distros.
36 • So sad the true origin is lost (by rarsa on 2009-02-02 19:06:05 GMT from Canada)
"there is nobody more famous than Linus Torvalds, the man who started it all by developing the Linux kernel in 1991"
You should know that the man who started it all was Richard Stallman.
It is not that there wasn't free software before him, it is that there wasn't a goal for a free operating system.
It is so sad that we forget the true origin, philosophy and purpose of Free software.
Linus contributed greatly to the operating system by developing the kernel, but the kernel is not the OS, the OS derives from the GNU project.
Now I understand why Richard asks for the OS to be called GNU/Linux. At first I thought it was silly but this Distrowatch weekly convinced me that it is the right thing to do.
Please give credit where it belongs.
37 • RE #16 Laptop (by Anonymous on 2009-02-02 19:10:25 GMT from United States)
I have a laptop that has 256mb but only a 650mhz processor.
Zenwalk works fine but no WiFi. Been looking at the OpenGEU and it seems to work OK but unable to test WIFI before install.
The new XFCE/Gnome version of Mandriva 09' looks like it will work also. Both the OpenGEU and Mandriva 09' in live have Beryl working too.
The XFCE version of Fedora was a dissapointment because it ran from the live but needed more than 256mb of memory for the install.
BTW, I was impressed with the new Knoppix, it also runs with 256mb of memory in live and talks even in text mode before you run startx. It even has a text menu, no more remembering the commands from a message that flys by on boot up. I even got the internet to come up in text mode before I did a startx and it stayed up and did not reset. Beryl was also working.
38 • @ 32 (by Anonymous on 2009-02-02 19:19:43 GMT from United States)
I take it that you have never had to install a specific version of a program on multiple seats across a network without that version or program being in your distribution's repositories, in which case you would do well to realize that it makes far more sense to build the program once and create a package of it than to compile it on every seat. :)
To be fair, I think Linus' answer would be that rpm is what he is familiar with, remember he has never tried Debian. He's a big sissy nanny-pants that is put off by its reputation for being difficult to install (hasn't been true since the 2004 release of Sarge).
39 • Fedora 9 and 10 updates (by Scott Dowdle on 2009-02-02 19:40:25 GMT from United States)
It doesn't appear that the author understands the rapid development model of Fedora and that they constantly update software for three reasons: 1) Security updates, 2) Bug fixes and 3) Enhancements. Ok, that makes sense and is somewhat obvious and yes the lines between them are a bit blurred when a software update does all three.
The point here is that Fedora 9 and 10 have followed each release of KDE as it has happened... usually lagging behind a couple of weeks for various reasons. That means that Fedora 9 has 4.1.4 now and will be getting 4.2. Fedora 10 shipped with some flavor of 4.1.x to begin with... but will be going to 4.2 as well. I mention that because while the initial release of KDE 4.0 on Fedora 9 was painful as KDE released updates so did Fedora and KDE 4 has been usable on Fedora 9 for some time now. In fact, I'm typing this from KDE 4.1.4 on Fedora 9.
How does Fedora do it? They often release a few hundred megabytes of updates every few weeks. The initial install media is horribly outdated after a month or two... which is one of the main reasons the Fedora Unity project exists.
40 • Spoke too soon :( (by J.B. on 2009-02-02 19:53:03 GMT from United States)
Mint 6 took the same *&^$# as all other distros: lost wifi connection.
I see in the forums at Mint it is an ongoing issue with many many different types of network adaptors and routers.
Damn it.
41 • #36 No, RMS, doesn't deserve credit for Linux (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-02-02 20:28:32 GMT from United States)
rarsa: You've hit one of my pet peeves. No, RMS does NOT deserve credit for the origination of Linux, nor should it be called GNU/Linux. Linus Torvalds has never been a Free Software advocate, preferring Open Source. He does not espouse FSF ideology and never has.
Without the kernel you have nothing. It's the kernel that is the heart of any OS and it's the kernel that handles the support for the hardware. If the kernel was so unimportant surely all of the FSF crowd would be running Hurd by now rather than Linux.
If you look at the gnu.org web page you'll find lots of very important and very useful software. gcc, as Linus points out, is the best free C compiler out there but it isn't the only C complier available. Every piece of software on gnu.org, including the few RMS actually wrote, can be replaced with something else. It is entirely possible to decouple GNU from Linux completely and you'd still have a viable Linux distribution. Glendix, which is built on Plan 9 instead of GNU tools, is seeking to do exactly that. Look at Damn Small Linux: GNU utilities are optional but busybox is used by default, gcc is available as an extension but tcc is included by default. Linux isn't GNU and doesn't have to be built on GNU anything.
So, no, let's not give credit where credit isn't due. I certainly don't share the RMS/FSF philosophy or ideology. I don't believe Linux needs to be prepended with GNU. I do believe that there is some fantastic GNU software out there and that is where credit is due, nowhere else.
42 • printer friendly DWW, please (by tmc on 2009-02-02 21:42:38 GMT from Hungary)
Dear Ladislav and Chris, please include in DWW's css some printer friendly optimization, for the sake of saving paper and ink. Take a look at this articles:
http://webdesign.about.com/od/printerfriendly/a/aa041403a.htm
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/goingtoprint/
(Don't tell me to avoid printing, because I can't read long articles and dozens of comments from screen. Am I the only one?)
Till then my recipe for Opera users:
1.) View -> Images -> No Images
2.) View -> Style -> User Mode
3.) View -> Style -> Disable Tables
4.) View -> Style -> High Contrast (B/W)
5.) Check the result File -> Print Preview
The same five steps made rapidly:
Keep pressed ALT while typing "vin-vsu-vst-vsh-fr"
Returning to the basic Opera settings:
Keep pressed ALT while typing "fr-vis-vsa-vst-vsh"
The "-" above is insignificant, was placed only to separate the five steps.
Firefox users should post their recipes.
IE users should... think to install an alternative browser ;)
43 • One thing I didn't get about the interview... (by uz64 on 2009-02-02 21:43:36 GMT from United States)
"At the same time, I want to be able to feel like the distribution isn't just a random pick of bleeding-edge programs gotten out of the 'random SVN repo of the day' kind of thing. Mistakes will happen, but I want to feel that the distribution tries to be up-to-date without doing totally crazy things."
Okay, that's understandable... but his top two distros of choice, openSUSE and especially Fedora, seem almost as bleeding edge as you can get (without going rolling-release). Ubuntu is not really all that much better in this case. At least SUSE provides KDE3 still as far as I know, and Ubuntu still supports Kubuntu 8.04 which has KDE3... but he's screwed because Fedora chose to go KDE4-only.
I have nothing against Fedora as a distro, since they are pioneers of many new things in the Linux world. Yet one of the major reasons I chose not to use it is because it's too bleeding edge and unpredictable. That's great for development (someone's gotta test the new stuff...), but not quite for actual use. The other thing being, it runs like a slug (the slimy kind) on my computer and takes up too much of my memory. I'm sure it'd run great on recent hardware, but then, just about anything out there would.
Anyway, on window managers: I like how several openbox-based distros are popping up, instead of just the usual Gnome/KDE. LXDE (which uses openbox as its window manager) also seems nice. But I wonder how development of EDE (Equinox Desktop Environment) has been going... I haven't heard anything about it lately. Also, Xfce, being one of my favorite desktop environments, hasn't quite taken off as I hoped; hopefully that changes soon. Man, there's so many good ones out there...
44 • #41 : Let's agree that we disagree (by rarsa on 2009-02-02 21:59:08 GMT from Canada)
"I certainly don't share the RMS/FSF philosophy or ideology."
What part of the philosophy or ideology you disagree with?
It is very simple, the philosophy and ideology is clearly explained in the 4 freedoms enforced by the GPL.
What Part of the GPL do you disagree with?
So you prefer the term "Open source" than "Free software", Does that mean that Microsoft "Shared source initiative" is OK in your book?
45 • RE: #41 Where credit is due (by Anonymous on 2009-02-02 23:18:06 GMT from Czech Republic)
In the release notes for Linux 0.01, in 1991, Linus Torvalds wrote:
"Sadly, a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you
need a shell, compilers, a library etc. These are separate parts and may
be under a stricter (or even looser) copyright. Most of the tools used
with linux are GNU software and are under the GNU copyleft. These tools
aren't in the distribution - ask me (or GNU) for more info."
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.01
So there you have it, straight from the horse's mouth. A kernel by itself is not an operating system. To get a working Unix-compatible operating system you need many parts in addition to the kernel. For the early Linux kernel hackers these additional parts of a Unix-compatible OS were available because RMS had started programming his own operating system, GNU, almost a decade before Linux. And when people then put GNU and Linux together, they got a working system.
Keith Bostic has told in several interviews that his conversations with RMS were one of the influences why the Berkeley BSD hackers decided to make a free version of BSD Unix. So it's entirely possible that we wouldn't have any kind of free Unix-compatible operating system to argue over if there wasn't RMS' hard work and determination to make that happen. Please give credit where credit is due.
46 • #43 - Answers (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-02-02 23:19:57 GMT from United States)
I don't disagree with the GPL. What I disagree with is the basis of the whole Free Software movement: the idea that proprietary software or intellectual property are somehow immoral or unethical. I believe that a developer or their employer has a right to decide what to do with whatever they create, in this case software. If they want it open and want to give it away that's all well and good. If they want it closed and want to sell it and the market will support it that's fine too.
Similarly, I don't have a problem with Windows users or Mac OS X users. They made a choice. I may choose to explain why Windows is a poor choice from a security standpoint or from the standpoint of getting the most performance out of a machine, butI won't criticize anyone for making a different choice than I make. Too many FSF advocates seem to feel the best way to pursuade Windows users to move away from Microsoft software is to take a virtual 2x4 to the Windows user's head. That won't work. Nobody likes to be bashed or lectured to. It's counterproductive.
Open Source and Free Software are different terms with different meanings. Open Source means the source code is freely available and can be reviewed. That's all it means. It does not necessarily mean that it will meet the FSF definition of "Free". It's not about preferences but about what those terms mean.
Regarding Microsoft, my issues with them has to do with their business practices and their cavalier attitude towards security. Microsoft's initiative is an attempt to be deceptive and to do an end-around Open Source. So, in that sense, no it's not OK. However, I have no problem whatsoever with people who choose to run Microsoft software or the fact that it's proprietary. Most of my customers run proprietary software on Linux as well, most frequently Oracle, and I have no problem with that.
My support for Open Source software is not ideological at all. Rather I see Open Source as the proverbial better mousetrap. It allows for collaborative development and for the recognition of bugs and vulnerabilities and fixing those issues more quickly.
47 • That's 44 not 43, #45, Credit where it isn't due (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-02-02 23:29:22 GMT from United States)
First my previous response was to #44, not #43. My apologies for any confusion this might have caused.
#46: Your 17+ year old quote doesn't dispute what I said. Ask Linus Torvalds what he thinks of the FSF, RSM, or the term "GNU/Linux" today. He's made his views clear already, I think. In any case you are correct that a kernel by itself isn't an operating system. In 1991 GNU tools may have well been the only viable choice to add to the naiscent Linux kernel. That isn't true in 2009. Just as a kernel isn't an OS neither are the GNU tools and you can't have an OS without a kernel.
I certainly give credit to RMS for what GNU tools he wrote and inspired. That is where credit is due but it is the only place I see credit due. I think your claim that we would never have had a free UNIX-like OS without Richard Stallman is a stretch. If he didn't do it someone else would have. He didn't create the GNU tools by himself in a vacuum either. A lot of people deserve credit for creating them.
Again, nothing you wrote disputes what I wrote in #41. I give RMS credit for his accomplishments. His accomplishments do not include Linux nor do I buy his claim that Linux is a misnomer and it's really a GNU OS.
48 • Knoppix 6.0 (by IMQ on 2009-02-03 00:27:52 GMT from United States)
Is Knoppix still installable to HD?
I haven't found the button to install yet.
Nice. Very nice. That's why I want to install it to the HD.
49 • That old GNU/Linux argument, no credit given:: (by Antonio on 2009-02-03 00:44:32 GMT from United States)
I agree with Caitlyn Martin that let Linux be Linux, the kernel and the OS that it encompasses. The GNU/Linux argument let's leave it for the evangelists. Take a Look at the fedora-list archives for that old Gnu/Linux argument and you will see one of the longest arguments(if not the longest thread) of all time.
GNU is great software is great and all, but the kernel is also very important. The OS can be built without it, take a BSD license or an OpenSolaris CDDL. The problem is the sharing of the code between the opensource communities.
50 • RMS vs Torvalds (by Gord on 2009-02-03 01:08:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
There's only one way to sort it out. Let 'em fight it out:-
The fanfare blares, as the two guys enter the ring...
The portly Stallman, with his beard full of lethal anti-capitalist acid spit, carrying the his FSF Halo in one hand, his portable Gnu horns across his back; ... and Torvalds, leaner and younger, with a fast-flailing whip-like flop-over hair style, red fedora in one hand, fist-full-of dollars in the other. Torvalds has the fist move with a rapid change of desktop environment! RMS fights back fixing it so that Linus's patches are rejected! etc etc etc ad nauseum
.
lighten up guys :)
51 • No subject (by Joe Biden on 2009-02-03 01:23:27 GMT from United States)
"Open Source means the source code is freely available and can be reviewed. That's all it means."
When we talk about open source it is generally along the lines of the Open Source Initiative.
This is where they give their definition:
http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd
Of particular interest is, "Open source doesn't just mean access to the source code." They then list the criteria, the first of which is free redistribution. In practice, the difference between free software and open source software is unimportant; it's not easy to draw up a long list of major projects that qualify as one but not the other.
Both the open source crowd and the free software crowd agree that software freedom is itself a valuable characteristic of the software. The free software types would probably say the freedom is important for ethical reasons while the open source types would probably say it is important from a business standpoint or other applied standpoint. I doubt that anyone involved in the creation of the OSI would accept your position that the freedom of the software is by itself unimportant.
52 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-02-03 01:47:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref #48.
Suggest you google the notion...it seems it is not advised...for a variety of reasons, see entries on the other forums. There are ways to do this in terminal but all I got was a message telling me permission was refused because of a size problem...
Then I took the option of installing it to a usb stick, where it works reasonably well. There is also an option to trick up the stick so you can save files to said stick. This works too. The knoppix distro gives you an option of installing to a usb stick and once selected just copies the files over without any other interference from oneself...which was nice...
Booting off a stick is somewhat of a novelty to me...so I played around and found it would boot off the stick courtesy of the BIOS liking usb sources, and, without the hard drive being connected.
(Top Tip: it's probably a sensible wheeze to ensure the BIOS in target PC actually WILL boot off a usb stick before you get over excited and buy up usb sticks willy nilly.)
Doubtless , dear readers, you are ahead of me, but I can see a time when one might be able to download straight onto a usb stick and run it after a reboot, straight away. (Just trick up the BIOS to boot off a usb stick as first choice and make the CDrom second followed by the local internal h/d.first).( If it IS possible to do d/l direct to stick then apologies for being ignorant...)
I don't imagine for a moment this is anything spectacular but it does mean you could simplify a PC to boot off the the stick and save files off internet to an ordinary h/d, say.
I did try to d/l stuff onto an external h/d but the distro, a la stick, wasn't too impressed and, although it could see the external drive, mounting the external h/d would not happen. Too tired to try an internal h/d tonight but might try another day.
I ascribe this to my ignorance of whatever needs to be done, in terminal probably (?).
One good thing is that given the above caveats, it is possible to install a distro to a usb drive without any probs with partitioning. The partition(s) on the stick appears to be fat16...
And, if you do have probs with the partition deal when installing to a hard drive, I found by using Partition Magic to reformat a h/d to a single ntfs partition prior to installing a distro installing helped considerably. (Not entirely sure why tho'...)
One final point; it seems that the read/write life of a stick is rather less than that of an "ordinary" h/d. So it may be that the usb stick gives up the ghost at the same time you got bored with any particular distro.
53 • REF: #52 (by IMQ on 2009-02-03 02:43:24 GMT from United States)
I did some googling, and some searching on Knoppix homepage to see if there is any mention of installing to HD. None.
I saw the option to do 'flash-install' but I am not too much interest in doing that sort of things at the moment.
The reason for installing to HD because I want to add more applications to the based Knoppix. Plus running from the HD is likely to be faster than from the CD. It also frees up the CD/DVD drive for other purposes.
My brief testing of it gave me the impression that it was quite fast, even with compiz enabled, which gives a pleasing effects.
At this point, I just have to consider it a live cd only, unless I want the flash-install option.
54 • Nice (by John Davis on 2009-02-03 03:04:21 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (spam).
55 • #51: Please don't put words in my mouth (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-02-03 03:23:26 GMT from United States)
"I doubt that anyone involved in the creation of the OSI would accept your position that the freedom of the software is by itself unimportant."
Where did I say that? That is most certainly not my position. What I said is that I don't view proprietary software as immoral or unethical. The two are NOT the same thing. I do believe that freedom to redistribute is important. There is nothing in the Open Source Definition I disagree with. It doesn't talk about ethics or morals, does it?
Actually there are a number of projects that do meet the OSD that don't meet FSF's definition. Do you want to see a long list? Most of the Linux distributions that are listed on DistroWatch are just such projects when they include proprietary blobs in the kernel. That's the whole reason GNewSense was created; Ubuntu is not free according to the Free Software Foundation. Fedora isn't free by their definition either. Need I go on?
If the difference between the OSD is and FSF is so minimal why did Linus Torvalds reject GPL v.3 for the Linux kernel? The Linux kernel as it exists today couldn't be GPL v.3 compliant, could it?
56 • #42, TMC (by sympathy on 2009-02-03 03:52:51 GMT from United States)
#42, TMC
Don't waste your time wishing about printers.
It's low priority for the people who post here, as well as many Linux developers and Linux reviewers/journalists.
Don't get all sensitive just because nobody supported your post. The lack of response represents restraint. Most of these people think you and I are silly or nuts for even mentioning printers.
While the bulk of the computer world values the printed page... to organize thoughts and sell ideas... the small minority of computer users that is Linux just is not concerned.
If you have a vision problem, or just have trouble with screens, jump on the next deal for the biggest you can afford. 24" screens for under $300US are common now.
Recently a popular, capable, and benevolent Linux developer released a live CD that is tweaked to benefit those with vision problems... and it doesn't print. The first reviewer said nothing about this level of functionality. That is the way things are.
57 • RE: #55. What are you trying to say? (by Eddie Wilson on 2009-02-03 04:56:07 GMT from United States)
Well? Are you for open source software, software freedom, or proprietary software. Or do you just like it all? It sounds like you believe in EVERYTHING! You may have given us a little insight when you said, "Most of my customers run proprietary software". You have given no position on anything. So the linux kernel is not GPL v.3 compliant? Then what does it fall under? GPL v.2, GPL v.1, or a PROPRIETRY licence? Maybe that's what Linus Torvalds wants so he can make a little money. That's ok with you tho because as you said, " I don't view proprietary software as immoral or unethical." You seem to be the kind of person who has to see ethics and morals written down some where for it to mean anything. It doesn't have to be written down. It can be implied. Software freedom doesn't mean anything to you because like many others you don't care as long as you can get your piece of the pie. You are correct tho when you say open source software and software freedom are not the same thing. I dare say we know where you stand.
58 • @ Caitlyn Martin re: GNU/Linux (by Mark on 2009-02-03 05:05:13 GMT from Australia)
There are a lot more distributions that use GNU without the Linux kernel than the other way around.
You can't get a kernel at all without the GCC compiler. GCC runs on many systems, not only GNU/Linux systems.
GNU software source code is significantly larger than the kernel.
The kernel on its own does nothing.
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.01
"Sadly, a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you need a shell, compilers, a library etc. These are separate parts and may be under a stricter (or even looser) copyright. Most of the tools used with linux are GNU software and are under the GNU copyleft. These tools aren't in the distribution - ask me (or GNU) for more info."
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/ac1b04eb0e09c03e
"As has been noted (not only by me), the linux kernel is a miniscule part of a complete system"
-- Quotes from Linus Torvalds.
The FSF position on this agrees with Torvalds, and notes that in any "Linux" distribution there is many times the amount of GNU code than kernel code:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy
Have a look at the graphic for a rough idea of the relative sizes of GNU software and the Linux kernel.
59 • @ eddie Wilson re: Linux kernel licence (by Mark on 2009-02-03 05:15:29 GMT from Australia)
>So the linux kernel is not GPL v.3 compliant? Then what does it fall under? GPL v.2, GPL v.1, or a PROPRIETRY licence?
The Linux kernel source code is released under the GPL V2 license.
http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=COPYING
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel
This license is compatible with GPL V3.
60 • GNU is not an OS (by Mark on 2009-02-03 05:35:05 GMT from Australia)
> That isn't true in 2009. Just as a kernel isn't an OS neither are the GNU tools and you can't have an OS without a kernel.
The Linux kernel is paired with GNU tools more often than anything else.
GNU tools do include an alternative kernel, so you can have an OS using GNU alone.
http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html
Like so:
http://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/
or so:
http://www.debian.org/ports/netbsd/
or so:
http://www.nexenta.org/os
> In 1991 GNU tools may have well been the only viable choice to add to the naiscent Linux kernel.
It is actually more the other way around. In 1991, the emerging Linux kernel was the only viable choice to complete the GNU OS, because the GNU project's own kernel, hurd, was disfunctional.
Please try to remember ... there kernel is only a small part of an OS. Just list the file size of the kernel binary versus the remainder of the distribution executable binaries, and perhaps you can see this.
61 • #46 Ethics matter (by rarsa on 2009-02-03 05:38:33 GMT from Canada)
Please, when you study ethics you can analyze what you think of as a conundrum. Of course you can give your opinion without knowing but that just looks foolish.
That people decide to loose freedoms in the name of convenience does not make it right. A lesser evil does not make it right http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7578.html
I hope you agree that slavery is unethical but : Do you find ethical voluntary enslavement?
"I may choose to explain why Windows is a poor choice from a security standpoint or from the standpoint of getting the most performance out of a machine"
Security and performance and all other aspects of other Proprietary OS or application can be fixed. Lack of transparency and control by the owner cannot. Unless of course you think that the owner of your computer is the OS/application developer because their OS/application is in your computer.
Closed source is unethical because it benefits from impeding knowledge sharing, It impedes and criminalizes it. Can you imagine how "fast" would mathematics or architecture or engineering would have advanced under the rules that currently apply to proprietary software? That's one of the things that makes it immoral. I am waiting for your counter argument.
"I see Open Source as the proverbial better mousetrap. It allows for collaborative development and for the recognition of bugs and vulnerabilities and fixing those issues more quickly"
It is only so when it is Free software. Just being opensource does not grant you those benefits. Think about it.
That some (or most) distros include binary drivers is done as a necessary evil. Some may argue that it is not necessary, but very few distro developers don't agree that it is an evil as they cannot recompile it and fix the bugs and easily port it.
Freedom cannot be easily explained to someone that hasn't enjoyed it. But as users and promoters of Free software we can educate them. Eventually they may have their ephiphany. I hope you'll think about this and have it.
62 • #60 Correct, we agree. (by rarsa on 2009-02-03 05:45:20 GMT from Canada)
A complete GNU OS would have included the Hurd.
But GNU + Linux are an OS. That's a main point.
Let's call it whatever we want. Even "Linux" by itself, as long as we don't forget where it comes from. Although it is easier not to forget if we use the compounded name GNU/Linux.
63 • @61 Free Software (by john frey on 2009-02-03 10:44:50 GMT from Canada)
It is late and I can't do justice to this thing about ethics, et al. Just want to say I agree with you rarsa.
The open source fans like to trumpet their lack of morals and ethics. It boggles my mind that psychopathy is valued as an asset. In truth no one is able to make a choice that does not have moral and ethical consequences.
Free Software is liberating. Open Source doesn't have to be but it can be psychopathic. I strive to be a free human not a sociopath so I choose Free Software.
64 • Theology (by forest on 2009-02-03 11:46:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
And there was me thinking this readers' comments section was for Linux fans...not theologic semantics...or semantic theologians...or are we going to argue that too? Ahem...so let me pose the question...does Deity exits in his/her/its many forms, and if so has it/she/he converted to GNU/Linux? Can you get a free wifi connection given you might be ethereal anyway? I think we should be told. Perhaps the gnu was sacrificed on the altar of free software...yes, that's about the level of humour in this post...
Obviously when I meet my maker I'd like to be singing the same hymn and using the same OS...ie some really cool OS and not something that gets hot and bothered at the drop of a license...and I end down in the MS department...where all the naughty, capitilsta OS accolytes are kept...could you imagine trying for all eternity to get Vista to work or waiting for that elusive SPn upgrade? (Crikey, just realised I am de-evolving into another Jeremy Clarkson...)
Which allows me to segue to point #40. HEAT.
The recurring theme apropos wifi and droppng of service is quite entertaining for me cos I like to surf...so a suggestion...for JB. Have you considered the local heat build up? It may be you might need to set the laptop on a fanned cooler plinth/pad? I know from my experience laptops can get quite warm, lol and the consequence could be the chips waving the white flag 'til they cool down a bit.
I ended up stripping the plastic shroud off a usb dongle and hanging it in free space and that appeared to help for a while...although it later died, I think because it had overheated in the past. Certainly the PCMCIA card I have fallen back on gets quite warm, despite the laptop sitting on fans...ere the fans (a new innovation for me) the card got really hot and yes I did lose connection from time to time.
When you read about how some folk have no probs it might just be cos they are using a fanned plinth or their laptop is well designed. My villain of a sixteen year old son has a Mac AirBook (no, his mother was persuaded...conned...to buy it), which was welded to MSN/facebook every evening and got so hot the hinges cracked with the heat...or so he claims...but that machine is an object lesson in how NOT to build a laptop/notebook for a teenager...and an object lesson in that if your issue must be online to preserve their peer position buy them the coolest running machine you can find run an extra fan over it...
And don't forget, JB...Mints are pretty hot anyway...(groan).
65 • Great interview (by zaine_ridling on 2009-02-03 12:10:15 GMT from United States)
Wow, thanks for the Linus interview. No one gives a casual interview like Linus.
66 • Re: KDE 4.2 (by Anonymous on 2009-02-03 12:13:00 GMT from Germany)
> KDE 3.5 had a program called kcontrol where most of the things required to set up a new distro were readily available. KDE 4 comes along and scatters the components of kcontrol to places unknown.
Seems you didn't try KDE4 for more than a minute: the control center binary is now called systemsettings.
67 • 55 (by Joe Biden on 2009-02-03 14:24:23 GMT from United States)
"Most of the Linux distributions that are listed on DistroWatch are just such projects when they include proprietary blobs in the kernel."
So you are arguing that those distributions meet the OSI definition of open source? Even though you can't view the source code?
Please post on your blog a list of major projects that fully meet the definition of one but not the other.
68 • GNU vs Linux (by RC on 2009-02-03 14:40:21 GMT from United States)
This is why Linux is going to have such a hard time appealing to the masses. I have never seen a group of people that are so schizophrenic in their stances. They want to shout "Choice" and "Freedom" as the reason for Linux and its many distros. However....should you not agree that their distro....or FSF...is the best, you are verbally abused...or accused of having no morals. What an amazingly close-minded bigoted group. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. IT is one of the few white collar professions that is predominantly liberal. And that is exactly what liberals do...espouse freedom of thought and speech....yet vigorously deny it to anyone that disagrees with them. Par for the course I guess. Caitlan is an old hand here....but I pity the Noobie that shows up and is foolish enough to try to share their thoughts.....they will scurry back to the safety of windows in a flash while the pompous @sses on here pat themselves on the back for ridding the Linux world of another "idiot". Congratulations on your hypocrisy.....
69 • Mint 6 doing well (by J.B. on 2009-02-03 14:56:23 GMT from United States)
The wifi probs ironed themselves out with reboot. ??
Anyway, I'm enjoying it, but am startled at what I just found at OS News: a report on OS usage.. please look at this page and comment, I'm just wondering how accurate it can be:
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=8&qptimeframe=M&qpsp=120
It states that linux is only less than 1% of all OS usage world wide!
70 • re 68 (by Anonymous on 2009-02-03 15:10:11 GMT from United States)
This does often seem to turn into a "school yard" fight of sorts quite often. I can see both points, but I understand both of them, I see nothing wrong with either view. Caitlyn is clearly stating her position, I don't know why people don't get it, or feel the need to argue with it. The ideals of either side don't apply to every situation, different people have different needs, and things are the way they are. Maybe some people should go sit in the corner for a while.
71 • No subject (by Joe Biden on 2009-02-03 15:25:47 GMT from United States)
"Caitlyn is clearly stating her position, I don't know why people don't get it, or feel the need to argue with it."
She didn't state her position - she made factual claims that are inaccurate or, at best, incomplete. We have an obligation to clarify things that are not correct no matter who says them.
72 • No subject (by forest on 2009-02-03 15:47:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
Re # 69
Hmmm, that pie chart looks like the one Lehman Bros (*) might have used to demonstrate to it's shareholders..."nothing to worry about..."
(NB. * = you may substitute any bank name with little fear of being labeled inaccurate...)
That's the problem with statistics...anyway, what that may try to prove is that the percentage of Linux users, in domestic situations, repeat domestic situation, is just that. Mind you I have seen "statistics" which purport to prove Linux has a 9 or 10% share of the domestic market.
Then you might ask yourself, who supports such sites/report writers/etc, etc.What global region did the statistics relate to really. So you can soon see that statistics are, unless fully qualified, almost totally useless.
Now, were you to ponder for a moment how Ubuntu (Canonical), Red Hat, Novell, get funded, or on a more "familiar" note how certain programmers get paid, then you would need to know that "GNULinux" (for global reference) is very, very widely used in the commercial world, from cell phones to petrol pumps. Many thousands of "mainframe" computers in the commercial and educational sphere also employ Linux...it may be used to run email servers...and you will of course have heard of "Apache".
Expanding the educational theme, you might have noticed that by no means are distros written exclusively by the English speaking nations. In fact, while we get heated, largely futile debate, in this very forum over semantics, other folk (whose first language is not English) are simply grateful to get an opportunity to write something for their own peoples (so to speak) and use a computer to do some "good". That is they use their skills for the benefit of their community. And of course they may get paid to do so.
In fact, when you read of the silly claims there are reference the speed of this distro over that distro, you realise it is just some silly, very silly peeing contest, limited hopefully to a small coterie of computer folk who compute simply for computing sake. Not that there is any harm in this...it's just a bit tedious to those who simply want a reliable, stable platform, not MS, to work with.
I am absolutely certain I have not heard a single claim from a non English (as a first language) contributer boasting about how "their" country's Linux distros are faster than "your" country's distros.
So in conclusion, ignore any stats...if you enjoy using Linux who cares what anybody wants to use.
73 • re 71 (by Anonymous on 2009-02-03 15:49:43 GMT from United States)
If she didn't state it, how do I understand it? And if something in your opinion is missing, why should a person have to explain every single detail about every single thing they state? What difference does it make?
Done, arguing is pointless, but people seem to like it here.
74 • #71 (by RC on 2009-02-03 15:50:26 GMT from United States)
Whether she needs corrected or not is up to debate. Accusing her of having no morals because she believes that it is acceptable to make proprietary software or to make money from software....that needs no debate...it is childish and obnoxious. Contrary to what some believe....people do have to pay bills and feed their family. No socialist nation has ever survived...and neither will a company or "movement". Capitalism may appear tawdry to the idealistic....but...it works. Calling someone immoral because they live in the real world and actually make money is an amazingly idiotic thing to do.
75 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-02-03 15:51:26 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref # 71.
Your last sentence, John, you're not married then?
76 • Re: 26/66 (by Paul B on 2009-02-03 15:53:39 GMT from United States)
Even an idiot can find help once in a while. This idiot stands humbly corrected, as System Settings DOES duplicate most of Kcontrol. My perceptions are probably warped by printer and samba setups, which never seem to go well, but were greatly aided by Kcontrol.
I eventually found the excellent printing setup. Although I didn't find it easily. But then, things never are easy for idiots.
And in fairness, some times Kcontrol and System Settings worked the same with samba. You spend a fair amount of time setting it all up, click on "apply", clear the firewall, start smb, startnmb, and zot! Nothing happens. So you go to smb.conf and find that "apply" didn't apply anything. So the true idiot now goes to samba SWAT and tries again. Now smb.conf gets changed and a whole new set of default speed bumps are added. (One of these days I am going to sit down and spend the time to plod through the jungle of the complete samba.) What I usually do, to get samba working, is edit smb.conf to make it look like my last successful install. That doesn't help the learning experience, but by that time I just want the damned thing working.
But, as I said before, I think it is all there. It is just a learning process to find it. And even us idiots can learn. At least I like to think so.
77 • #75 (by RC on 2009-02-03 15:54:15 GMT from United States)
LOL....obviously not...or very unhappily....
78 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-02-03 16:05:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref # 74
You young scamp, that comment in your penultimate sentence has got to be, probably, one of the very best I have read in this forum...it's something I'll treasure.
79 • #78 (by RC on 2009-02-03 16:08:58 GMT from United States)
LOL...well....not so young any more, but I apparently would qualify as a scamp do to my obviously tenuous hold on reality according to some on here.
80 • No subject (by forest on 2009-02-03 16:22:42 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref # 76
Take a tip Paul, NEVER put yourself down, I found you can safely leave that to others...
Printers...I got lost in your description, sorry...but on the other side of the coin, assuming you have no allergy to Ubuntu 8...
I plugged in my (by current standards, aging Samsung ML1510) switched on and was greeted by message that not only had the printer been identified, driver found and installed but it was ready and prepared to print anything I might care to send to it. Job done.
Obviously, if you have the very latest bit of kit then you will, probably, have rather less success, unless a Linux driver, suitable for your kernel, is supplied ready to install.
81 • 74 (by Joe Biden on 2009-02-03 16:48:46 GMT from United States)
I'll leave it at this: Anyone can read what I wrote and decide for themselves if your post is in any way relevant.
She gave a nonstandard definition of open source. She then claimed that distros distributing proprietary software meet the OSI's definition of open source. If you want to talk about things that someone doesn't care about when feeding a family, the free vs open source distinction is at the top of the list.
82 • the 'freedom' debate (by The Ref on 2009-02-03 16:54:07 GMT from United States)
There ARE reasonable arguments to be made on both sides. The freedom versus open source debate is a thorny one, perhaps the IT debate of the 21st century.
I just wish people on this board would observe three simple rules:
1. Attack the argument, not the person making the argument.
2. Don't resort to name-calling.
3. Never use profanity.
The Distrowatch readership is a small slice of the world at large. You already have more in common with anyone you meet here than the average person on the street. Get some manners and don't say anything online that you wouldn't say to a person's face, lest you get a bop on the nose or worse.
83 • #81 (by RC on 2009-02-03 17:08:00 GMT from United States)
My comments were lumping you in with the comments of your cohorts about her posts. Feel like I am in the Twilight Zone. Complete loss of reality going on here.
57 • Eddie Wilson
You seem to be the kind of person who has to see ethics and morals written down some where for it to mean anything. It doesn't have to be written down. It can be implied. Software freedom doesn't mean anything to you because like many others you don't care as long as you can get your piece of the pie.
61 • rarsa
Ethics matter
Please, when you study ethics you can analyze what you think of as a conundrum. Of course you can give your opinion without knowing but that just looks foolish.
That people decide to loose freedoms in the name of convenience does not make it right. A lesser evil does not make it right http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7578.html
I hope you agree that slavery is unethical but : Do you find ethical voluntary enslavement?
Closed source is unethical because it benefits from impeding knowledge sharing, It impedes and criminalizes it. Can you imagine how "fast" would mathematics or architecture or engineering would have advanced under the rules that currently apply to proprietary software? That's one of the things that makes it immoral. I am waiting for your counter argument.
Freedom cannot be easily explained to someone that hasn't enjoyed it. But as users and promoters of Free software we can educate them. Eventually they may have their ephiphany. I hope you'll think about this and have it.
63 • john frey
It is late and I can't do justice to this thing about ethics, et al. Just want to say I agree with you rarsa.
The open source fans like to trumpet their lack of morals and ethics. It boggles my mind that psychopathy is valued as an asset. In truth no one is able to make a choice that does not have moral and ethical consequences.
Free Software is liberating. Open Source doesn't have to be but it can be psychopathic. I strive to be a free human not a sociopath so I choose Free Software.
84 • @#72 from forest (by J.B. on 2009-02-03 17:19:52 GMT from United States)
Thank you for that refreshing analysis of the OS News article and graph about operating systems usage around the world.
I sure agree about Linux as more interesting than Windows, but I also think that exposure to other than Windows by millions of users is what is missing; all they see are laptops and PCs with Windows as OEM in the stores.
I was also surprised about the low Mac percentages expressed there; that is what made me wonder about the accuracy of the graphic even more than the less than 1% for Linux.
85 • No subject (by forest on 2009-02-03 17:36:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
re. # 82.
Actually, Ref, you said it but perhaps not intentionally...this site, and forum by extension, is called Distrowatch!!! It's not the Morality Monthly site.
Allegedly, we drop in to discuss distros and folk's opinions, good, bad, expert or newbie about distros...not to start jumping up and down about the finer points of a definition or someone's take on them and forcing them into a corner.
Or worse, as you say, slagging off folk at a personal level. We are all guilty at straying from the subject, even me , who has taken the odd liberty from time to time...not excluding this comment...
You can see now why y'man has no desire to police a forum. So why not let us try to do something not done on any other Linux forum...stay on the subject of Linux Distros.
86 • No subject (by forest on 2009-02-03 18:17:01 GMT from United Kingdom)
Re # 84
I think I'm on topic here, just...LOL
JB, you may have answered your own question! It just occurred to me (aka wild stab in the dark...) those statistics may have been "sales" figures. And as such are entirely accurate, but meaningless in the context of your question.
As you so rightly point out, unless you KNEW about Linux beforehand, you could ONLY know of MS OS.nnn or Mac OS.nnn. Not everyone reads computer mags or perhaps has access to them, hence total ignorance of any other OS.
The pie chart could not make a distinction or even indicate whether of not some or a lot of those MS or Mac "devotees" migrated/adopted/tried/experimented with Linux after they bought an MS/Mac software loaded machine. I suppose were you go on the number Linux CDs bought then again the chart might be correct.
But, how would you know how many folk downloaded a distro from the table on the homepage of this site., or how many hits were attributable to the same person.
In fact nobody knows know how many folk use Linux, in any distro, full time, part time, at work, at home etc etc. The same applies to MS to Mac and back again.
So, it demonstrates just how easy it is to publish a, possibly, entirely accurate statistic (or is that an oxymoron? LOL) entirely out of context to prove an entirely unprovable statement.
My own belief is that GNULinux will prevail owing to its cost, its adaptability, and the fact Microsoft is too juicy a target for all the nasties being flung at it. And Mac is busily pricing itself out of the market, given the global economic climate.
87 • re 55: Liinux GPL 3 compliance (by Pseudonymous on 2009-02-03 18:28:32 GMT from United States)
If the difference between the OSD is and FSF is so minimal why did Linus Torvalds reject GPL v.3 for the Linux kernel? The Linux kernel as it exists today couldn't be GPL v.3 compliant, could it?
He didn't reject v3 overtly, he just said there wasn't a compelling reason to go through the hassle of tracking down all of the copyright holders or their next of kin (for the people that have died) of code within the kernel to get their permission to change the license.
If Sun Microsystems were to relicense their kernel under GPLv3 (and therefore relicense zfs) Linus would go through that hassle, because zfs support _is_ a compelling reason for the hassle of tracking down all of the copyright holders or their next of kin. But until that happens there is no reason to change licenses.
88 • OS News (by J.B. on 2009-02-03 19:34:15 GMT from United States)
OS News is an open source advocate site. At least it seems so being as how they have a link at the bottom of the page to Tango Project, a dedicated open source entity. I am sure many here are knowledgeable about the OS News history; I am not.
Seems like OS News would have the resources to gather accurate info about the subject of % of various OS usage around the world.
Sales is an obvious skewed criteria for accurate statistics in a schema involving not just for sale products but also proudly free and/or open source products as well.
89 • #83 (by yelamdenu on 2009-02-04 01:28:08 GMT from Netherlands)
"The open source fans like to trumpet their lack of morals and ethics. It boggles my mind that psychopathy is valued as an asset. In truth no one is able to make a choice that does not have moral and ethical consequences.
Free Software is liberating. Open Source doesn't have to be but it can be psychopathic. I strive to be a free human not a sociopath so I choose Free Software."
Well, that's all great, but next please don't give us a link for a book by Michael Ignatieff.
Talking about a hypocrite. A "liberal" neocon supporter of the immoral, sociopathic (let's use the word) Iraq invasion. Either he is incredibly naive or he is serving his masters well.
90 • Yes! (by 1c3d0g on 2009-02-04 02:42:22 GMT from Aruba)
Thank you, DistroWatch, for donating to Openbox, perhaps the best lightweight window manager there is.
91 • THAT money question..... (by Hux on 2009-02-04 03:15:51 GMT from Australia)
It *IS* a strange world we live in.
In a real one the debacle of the Vista release would kill a company stone dead.
That is ignoring the private or commercial cost to set it up.
Enuff said....
But what about organising a special pool via PayPal so that developers AND support hacks could at least buy a pizza?
To stop the "stay-virgin" arguments, all those (free)(down)loaders could pay the princely sum of ten bucks, split 50/50 between the coders and an advertising campaign to get w-o-m advertising seriously moving.
Every serious organisation has protective devices like 30 day trials, why not Linux?
Boys, I sure appreciate the 500 free distros, but as a businessperson, still forced to use XP because of code-licensing problems for a few programs I need, what do you people think would happen if you really could simply install a Distro and go?
I've just realised it is all about money - the proprietary code that has stopped me for literally years from the switch. All I wanted was sound and mebbe video.......
I don't want it for nothing!
I'm not a charity case!
I just want something that really works..... now.
AND without any more backdoors etc..
Peace!
92 • the future of linux (by mellosonic on 2009-02-04 04:45:17 GMT from United States)
I found the interview with Linus to be most enlightening and what it showed me is that given two sticks man can create fire...What I mean is that given the freedom to create and the ability to collaborate has made Linux what it is. The fact that there are many flavors of linux speaks to the ability of many people to try new things. Given the ability to create groups and forums for testing and creating new and better ways to do things is what has always lured me to the open-source world.
That being said, why does everyone have to go thru the petty bickering over who's the best? To me the best thing about Linux is the fact that we have choices and get to try out everyone's ideas for ourselves and make our own decisions on what works for us....That is very cool indeed!
By the way have you tried out Tomas' Slax autobuild setup yet? This has been done by NimbleX also...I like the Idea of custom building my own linux online...the future looks excellent for this idea! peace/mello
93 • #74 Ignorance is not a crime, #89 Read and come back (by rarsa on 2009-02-05 05:21:39 GMT from Canada)
# 74 RC: I'll start by clarifying that I am not attacking you or your arguments, I am just debunking some of the inacurate statements you made. Ignorance is not a crime, it can be solved by learning to listen. In my posts "Ignorance" is not used as an insult. I am ignorant in many regards but then I choose to listen to people that know so I can be a little less ignorant.
"Whether she needs corrected or not is up to debate." I didn't respond because she "needed" to be corrected, but so people reading here wouldn't be missinformed.
"Accusing her of having no morals..." I never did that. I stand by my arguments.
"because she believes that it is acceptable to make proprietary software" Belief... A great word to justify willful ignorance. If she believes that then I explained what that belief was wrong.
"or to make money from software....that needs no debate..." Exactly! Free software/proprietary, is a different dimention than making money or not. Free software develpers can make (and are making) money out of their work. Agree, no debate needed here.
"it is childish and obnoxious. Contrary to what some believe....people do have to pay bills and feed their family." Childish and obnoxious is continuing the myth that Free software developers live out of thin air. They eat, make money and some of them even get rich. Nothing wrong with that.
"No socialist nation has ever survived..." Ejem ejem, Canada is doing very well, thank you, Nordic countries are doing well as well.
"Capitalism may appear tawdry to the idealistic....but...it works." Here I agree 100%. But this argument has nothing to do with Free software. Being vegetarian may also work, but some Free software developers may eat meat, some may not, what does that have to do with the 4 Freedoms?
"Calling someone immoral..." I never called her immoral, I said Proprietary software is immoral.
"...is an amazingly idiotic thing to do..." Re-read my responses and after you stop blushing you'll see to which arguments your adjective applies.
# 89 yelamdenu :
"Well, that's all great, but next please don't give us a link for a book by Michael Ignatieff. A "liberal" neocon... Either he is incredibly naive or he is serving his masters well."
No point in arguing. Read his book. Don't just repeat what you've heard.
94 • #93 (by RC on 2009-02-05 14:14:51 GMT from United States)
I appreciate the civil tone of your response and will try to do likewise. I agree with you on the definition of ignorance, and the cure. However, having a belief or opinion that is different than yours does not automatically define ignorance. That would infer that you have the truth and everyone else doesn't. I can't quite go there. Whether you choose to call it morality or ethics, the result is the same. The production of software does not involve morals or ethics unless someone else is harmed morally or ethically. Proprietary software fulfilling that definition is a highly debatable and personal opinion, and no more than that.
You say that free software programmers are paying thier bills....my question is...how? Not thru the programming for free software in the huge majority of cases. They make a living elsewhere in the capitilistic industry and do this on their own time....until they burn out and quit. The percentage working for Redhat, Novell and Canonical is just a small fraction of the whole.
Canada is not doing very well actually....and I would not call it completely socialist....yet. The areas that are problems are definitely the socialist ones.....medical springs to mind. Those with money come to the US for treatment....and there are several lawsuits pending I believe to address that issue. Same is true of many european countries with socialist medicine. Those with the means and the need come here or some other tawdry capitalistic hell-hole to get decent medical treatment before they die waiting at home. If you want to defend that or use it as the basis as an argument for socialism....have at it....and good luck selling it. Do we need to discuss taxation rates? Or productivity? Or creativity? The bulk of progress in any industry you care to name comes out of capitalistic nations....not socialist ones. Capitalism promotes hard work, creativity and self reliance. Socialism promotes....well...you get the idea.
Luckily for me, no blushing was required in the process of typing this response. We have different world views and personal opinions and no amount of discussion is going to change that. However, healthy adult discussion is a positive thing and we should all be able to do that. I respect your opinions about software, but I don't (and won't) share them. That doesn't mean we have to throw rocks at each other though. Or at anyone else on this board. If we state our differences without attack or demeaning tone I think that most people on here can handle discussing it. Cheap shots will only degenerate into worse things.
While we aren't going to agree...I hope we can agree to disagree agreeably.....
95 • Wireless drop out (by RollMeAway on 2009-02-05 16:22:13 GMT from United States)
To the person that finds all distros drop their wireless after a couple of hours.
Check the settings in your wireless router.
There is a "Time for lease" or similar that will kick a
connection after the specified time has elapsed.
96 • #81, #93, #94 Responses (by Anonymous on 2009-02-05 18:52:27 GMT from United States)
@Joe Biden #81: Actually, the definition I gave of Open Source is the one most people seem to understand and accept. It's hardly "non standard". As I pointed out before most Linux distributions on DistroWatch, with a few notable exceptions like GNewSense and Ututo, don't meet the FSF definition of Free Software. They don't meet OSI's definition of Open Source either. Yet almost all of them tout themselves as Open Source and nobody disputes it. Almost the entire community accepts it.
Let's go back to the OSD for a minute. There are indeed projects that meet the OSD that do NOT meet the FSF definition of Free Software. Almost everything released by the Mozilla Foundation falls into that category. The reason Debian, Zenwalk, and a few other distros have packages like Iceweasel and Iceape is because they believe Mozilla's trademark policies violate the definition of Free Software. The package description of Iceweasel even describes it as "more ethical". The OSD makes no comment or statement regarding trademark of logos.
#94 RC did an outstanding job of replying to rarsa in #93 in a civil way that pretty much makes the points I would want to make. I'm certainly not ignorant of the FSF position or arguments regarding software and ethics. Like RC I simply disagree with them and have a different view.
If I were to stop using proprietary software today I would have to close the doors of my business immediately. I support a mixture of Linux and commercial UNIX. As I mentioned before my Linux customers frequently use proprietary applications on their Linux servers. They also frequently use Open Source applications like Firefox on their Windows machines. Right now I have to support a mix. If I were an FSF purist I could give exactly none of my customers what they want.
The fact remains that in many cases the proprietary applications are the best tools available. There just isn't high end ERP software that's Open Source. There isn't the sort of HR software some clients use. Even where there are Open Source equivalents they sometimes just don't compare to the proprietary apps. For network diagrams I do use Dia and I've used Kivio in the past. Neither of those are anywhere near Microsoft Visio in terms of capablilities. (Oh, and yes, I used Visio before Microsoft bought it.) Even Linus Torvalds has praised a Microsoft product (Songsmith) in his blog recently. See:
http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2009/01/fantastic.html
I really don't think my choice of software is any more of an ethical or moral choice than my choice of brand or flavor of yogurt at the supermarket. I recognize that FSF advocates like rarsa disagree with me on that. My problem with the FSF position is that it tends to be intolerant of different choices or beliefs and rather than promoting freedom it seeks to restrict my freedom of choice.
97 • #94 just answering your questions (by rarsa on 2009-02-05 19:02:06 GMT from Canada)
RC: Cheers. We agree to disagree in opinions. I wasn't going to extend the thread, but you asked questions. Here are the answers.
"However, having a belief or opinion ..." I agree that arguing beliefs or opinions is useless and facts are subject to interpretation. All we can do is present our interpretation of the facts and that is our truth until proven wrong with arguments, not beliefs or opinions.
"The production of software does not involve morals or ethics unless someone else is harmed morally or ethically."
This "thread" started by me bringing up Richard Stallman. He presents very convincingly (to me) the reasons why it is unethical. I disagreed with him until I read his arguments and talked to him.
I'm not a saint. It's my opinion that proprietary software is a necessary evil. But a necessary evil does not make it right.
"You say that free software programmers are paying thier bills....my question is...how?"
"They make a living elsewhere in the capitalistic industry and do this on their own time..."
Here are the facts:
There are some programmers that do it for the fun of it. To learn, to contribute or just because they were bored. Currently I fall in that category.
There are some others that are working for companies that require modifications to existing Free software. They are getting paid. I personally know people in this category.
There is even a group that are making money from contributions, anonymous or otherwise from people that appreciate their work.
The word "Free" in Free software derives from Freedom, not from no cost.
"The percentage working for Redhat, Novell and Canonical is just a small fraction of the whole." The percentage of programmers working creating proprietary software is actually a small fraction of the whole. Most work writing custom software for companies. This is also a fact.
"Luckily for me, no blushing was required" I honestly apologize for the cheap shot.
I also apologize beforehand to everybody else for the of topic that follows:
"Canada is not doing very well actually..." At some levels this is a matter of opinion but on health care there are facts that contradict you.
Canadian health care is far from perfect but check life expectancy and infant mortality. True, in the US for people with money can get good and fast health care but for people without money, health care is unattainable.
In Canada health care is a right, in the US it is a commodity.
I guess that from a personal perspective the "best" health care system depends on what side of the scale you are and whether you see it as a right or a commodity.
98 • #97 (by RC on 2009-02-05 19:54:58 GMT from United States)
Thank you for your apology and a great reply. I do want to clarify that I never said that proprietary software was a "good" thing, only that it is a reality that we have to deal with and that doing so doesn't make us immoral or unethical. I wish all drivers were available in free format....especially for the Canon products that I already own....but that simply isn't reality at the moment. There are a handful of products that I simply can't replace with Linux alternatives...which frustrates me....and that keeps me tied to the MS bandwagon. So we are not really on different sides of the fence...nor is the poster in #96...we may differ in our views on the subject...but I think we all wish it were different.
As for health care....it is a commodity from my perspective...and our constitutions. And no one gets turned down in a life threatening situation here. I live in a state where 12% of our population was on a funded health program...and it nearly bankrupted our state. There are no free lunches....someone has to pay the bill. As with all things free it was badly abused and the rest of us had to pay for it. When your premiums go up and your deductibles mount up...you treat your coverage with respect. When the "government" pays no such respect exists and costs sky rocket. Those who were on the service are among the highest percentage of smokers, drinkers, lousy diets and dangerous driving habits as well. Why am I encumbered with their cost when I go to work every day to pay for my own? Our constitution...which I believe is the best in the world...guarantees us life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not a word about health care. And the cost of that health care impacts my liberty and pursuit of happiness as well. Again..we will have to disagree agreeably. A pleasure talking with you.
99 • HEY! (by confused on 2009-02-05 21:52:33 GMT from United States)
Anyone know what happend to Freespire? Its not on the net anymore.. nor is the wiki!
100 • Freespire is dead (by Anonymous on 2009-02-05 22:24:22 GMT from Canada)
It's time for you to move on. Find another distro.
101 • RE: 99 (by Anonymous on 2009-02-05 22:56:30 GMT from United States)
I believe Freespire's parent, Linspire, was bought by Xandros a while back.
Freespire is no longer... free.
It is now handcuffed to the will of the people running Xandros. When (or if) it is released at all, it will be so under the discretion of its owner. Only if the release will draw more people to their commercial offerings or the name Xandros or both.
Freespire, unlike Fedora or openSUSE, does not have a large community of people to help build it and move it forward to then next... century. :)
If I recall, the last edition of Freespire was a remastered based on Ubuntu.
Freespire was good while it lasted.
Now RIP.
Amen!
102 • Quick question (by Landor on 2009-02-06 16:41:49 GMT from Canada)
Who is now moderating the comments section? Ladislav? Christ? Combined Effort?
I'm curious as my one post may have started off topic but I tied it into Linux/GNU, OSS, and even the OLPC.
I'm not looking for an aswer as to why, well maybe I am, but if I was I'd actually finally write an e-mail on it.
103 • oops (by Landor on 2009-02-06 16:42:23 GMT from Canada)
Chris*
104 • RE 104 (by Landor on 2009-02-06 23:42:36 GMT from Canada)
Thanks, your reply made me smile.
I wish I had been funny enough to actually have intended the Christ comment instead of the typo, Lord I laughed afterward.
Try anything new lately? I'm looking for a new desktop solution that is going to be as customisable as Gentoo, but far more simple and KDE 3 based. I'm getting lazier it seems. I tried a few distros that were even Gnome based and I have to agree with some of Linus' comments regarding it. I don't mind being stuck with a dead-end version in the end if it lasts a couple years. I actually find myself wishing Kubuntu 8.04 was LTS and was KDE 3 series by default. I won't mention the more than few distros and their flaws (in my use of them), as someone may take my stick and try swingin'
(Disclaimer: I still love Gentoo and it's not the problem, my laziness is..lol)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
105 • RE: 102 Quick question (by ladislav on 2009-02-07 00:53:24 GMT from Taiwan)
While it's true that your post was only partially off-topic, it generated further off-topic discussion - that's why I decided to delete it.
Please remember that the topic here is free operating systems. Any off-topic posts will be deleted.
106 • #104 (by yelamdenu on 2009-02-07 00:57:13 GMT from Netherlands)
@Landor
Just do a Debian netinstall, install the base (don't select "desktop", that's Gnome) and then let aptitude install Xorg and KDE 3.
At least, that's what I'd do and I'm lazy. :-)
107 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-02-07 01:39:26 GMT from United States)
Linux-Mint X64 has been released..
108 • re #104 (by Glenn on 2009-02-07 03:18:08 GMT from Canada)
Hi Landor.
If you like being adventurous you may want to give Fedora a try. I am currently testing it for personal and business purposes and I have found that their implementation of KDE4 is pretty good. It may have a head scratchers in there but they are not enough to kill the use of the distro. I could enumerate some quirks but I am still playing with the desktop so much that what I discover may be only applicable to my system. One thing I have to give it, it is pretty fast. I found it really stable and when I demoed it at the office with all their applications I got a really favorable reaction from the audience. They did find the KDE4 a little unusual but I have 3 of them giving it a run.
Mepis RC2 is also really good, very stable and has just about everything you would want for a startup desktop. It is also quite fast compared to say Kubuntu, Mint, Mandriva.
I am not running any slackware distros at the moment so i cannot compare to them.
Liike like I also got a penalty for cross-checking. Oh well. :-)
have fun..
Glenn
109 • Landor One more thing. (by Glenn on 2009-02-07 03:23:56 GMT from Canada)
Have you tried NimbleX. Thats really not bad at all. You tell it what packages you want in your distro then you download the customised version. Pretty nice concept and the implementation is not bad either.
Glenn
110 • Mepis RC2 wireless (by Anonymous on 2009-02-07 03:37:51 GMT from United States)
I am running Mepis RC2. Nice O.S. but the wireless config although it works, it's a real head banger to configure. I like the wireless browse features found in Mandriva, Slackware and Ubuntu.
111 • Re: 104 (by madal on 2009-02-07 04:19:01 GMT from United States)
Landor;
I, too am one of the KDE3 holdbacks. I tried F9 with KDE 4.0, and found it unusable. So, I went scurrying back to 3.5. Here are my current suggestions:
Arch with kdemod3 (my current fave)
Sidux (this distro just rocks! just don't forget to install the 'smxi' script -> RTM)
Debian, as per yelamdenu (post 106 above)
openSUSE 11.1 (when choosing a desktop, make sure to check "other" - KDE3 is in there)
PCLinuxOS 2009 (one of the RCs, or you can wait for the final)
If you're looking for easy, SUSE, Sidux, and PCLinuxOS are probably the "easiest" installs .
Al
112 • Re #104 Try anything new lately? (by DG on 2009-02-07 07:41:38 GMT from Netherlands)
Landor, why not try Lunar Linux? It's a rolling, source-based distro,and the 1.6.4 ISO was released last month so a new installation will be reasonably up to date anyway. The base installation is minimal and you are then free to install XOrg7 and whichever desktop environment you want, or leave it minimal for use as a server. And you don't need USE flags everywhere.
Unfortunately there's no multilib, so it's either 32 or 64 bit only.
Disclaimer: I hang out on #lunar and try to answer questions of their forums.
113 • re 112 (by glyj on 2009-02-07 10:07:53 GMT from France)
what about Cooker ?
It's also a rolling distro, very usable, sometimes broken with great updates.
114 • Fedora 10 and floppies (by Paul B on 2009-02-07 11:57:10 GMT from United States)
For some reason, unknown to me, Fedora seems to stop loading the floppy module. I thought it was a peculiarity of their kernel upgrades, but I find that going back to 117 doesn't help.
So like a good sleuth, I tried googling for an answers. After many unseccessful tries, I finally found the answer in a response to the same problem using Fedora core 8. (Does anybody else find Google loaded up with large amounts of irrelevant trash?) Apparently, Fedora thinks that nobody uses floppy drives anymore. That is probably not a bad assumption.
However, it would have been nice to know that all I had to do was a "modprobe floppy" to restore function. Or, did I miss this in the release notes somewhere?
115 • iMagic OS (by Bill on 2009-02-07 14:30:18 GMT from Canada)
Quote by ladislav on post 105
"Please remember that the topic here is free operating systems."
Then why is he allowing a blatant ripoff like imagic OS to be listed.For $79.99 I can buy Vista Basic for which is legitimate and had work done to it. All there versions are just cosmetic changes and they should get sued by Apple for the OS X ripoff. It is distros like this that will drag down Linux as people will unknowingly order this and then get no support as there EULA mentions "THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS" WITH NO WARRANTY"
ladislav please remove iMagic OS from the listing to allow room for a distro that will benefit the community.This distro is obviously just a money grab and has now intent on promoting linux as a free system
116 • RE: ME...LOL (by Landor on 2009-02-07 18:44:30 GMT from Canada)
Just for some info on why. I've slowed down on distrohopping a bit and used one other distro as my main one switched from Gentoo, but it too was manual to a degree. But I still distrohop and even though it's enjoyable I find myself coming back to my main system, or OS and have to do an upgrade, or say install something I need from source and I think, man, I shouldn't have to do this with my main system, seems like I'm doing it all the time.
@106
I looked at Debian as one of them. The netinstall again is too much effort. I want to avoid having to piece it together and the command line as much as possible, and hopefully have to use it only once or twice during the life of the install.
@Glenn
I actually like NimbleX a lot but I don't see it being for me full-time. On my main work box I use CentOS and Whitebox (as a fallback) , and although I love a Red Hat based system I can't see myself going to Fedora but especially KDE 4. I've poked around with all 4-based releases trying to find some way to make the switch and if I could honestly find a way I'd make the switch and it just might have been Fedora. I'm considering mepis possibly. I want to make it a broad sweep for most of my boxes at home that "I" have to use other than my work box and server. My son is basically in the mood to make a transition too. He talked about removing Gentoo from his lappy and his main box, but leaving it on his consoles which he baiscally doesn't touch the install.
@ 111
Out of all of those ole Suze just might be my choice and for the life of me I can't imagine why I forgot the DVD install. But I'm gonna run it until Mepis hits a full release and run them both side by side. I honestly (and no insult to anyone here, my opinion) might give PCLOS a shot if they can release before say 2020. We've been hearing about the release coming soon forever, and personally, I never thought I'd ever consider it as a distro I used on my system daily. It's not just the instlal though, it's maintaining it. Getting software (lazily, click click), ease of installation of codecs, flash, etc) ole Suze's one-click install option might just do it for me
@112
Thanks, I appreciate the info, but I really don't want to have to build anything, that's what I'm trying to get away from.
Thanks everyone...I wasn't really looking for any help but I appreciate all the comments none the less and of course a couple helped too, which is an added bonus to say the least. Much appreciated.
Keep your stick on the ice..
Landor
117 • #116 Landor. (by Glenn on 2009-02-07 21:43:21 GMT from Canada)
Hi Landor.
You will be pretty happy with Mepis for sure. I know it is RC2 and not a distribution release but you'd not know it. Even when I ran the Mepis Beta's I found them to be far better than the Distribution releases of a lot of distros I tried. My son loves Mepis and won't go on anything else. My wife is hooked on the Linux Mint LTS distro. (Thank God for WEBMIN. Makes my maintenance life easy)
Antix is a derivative as you know and I tried that also. It is really good if you like a light desktop then add your own cludge as you go. heh heh. .
Really! Please do try Fedora KDE 4, at least for a few hours. With your skill level you'll master it in about 1/3 that time anyway.
Forget the Fedora Gnome, that's sluggish and not as easy to monkey with the desktop, mouse, workplaces, etc. believe it or not!
Fedora KDE4 takes a bit of getting used to but I really have not found any showstopping bugs.
Before you do your first update after installation though you should install RPMFUSION (used to be LIVNA).
Once you are running there are all kinds of settings where you can adjust your desktop etc. I am running it on a Thinkpad T60 and a desktop with GIGABYTE K8NXPSLI MOBO and AMD 3400 Socket 939 processor.
I still use DEBIAN for my internal network but have been looking at WhiteBox also. If only I had the time. :-)
As an aside I thought I'd be the last guy to ever boost an RPM release llike I just did).
Have fun whatever you choose.
115.
Hiya Bill... I took a quick peek and I see that it is using proprietary products like Crossover from Codeweaver. I think this is similar to Xandros where you basically pay for Proprietary stuff albeit at a good discount . This looks like a ressurection of Linspire which was structured along those lines as well. I think Ladislav could have been more clear in his definition of Free system. Oh well.
(
Glenn
118 • RE: # 99, 100, 101 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2009-02-07 22:30:56 GMT from Italy)
I want to complain for the lot of those who, years ago, paid $100 to help Linspire survive and got in return "a lifetime membeship". I was one of them.
I complained that we weren't asked when Linspire took vital decisions, like moving from Debian to Ubuntu. My posts got deleted.
And now? I suppose I can wave goodbye forever to my $100, as I don't expect to get anything for free from Xandros, who bought Linspire.
119 • #116/117 Mepis Beta's better than the Distribution releases of a lot of distros (by anticapitalista on 2009-02-08 00:47:33 GMT from Greece)
Yes I totally agree.
MEPIS is a really under-rated distro in distroland (at least for the last 2 years or so), but there are very few distros that can match it in terms of ease to install and maintain and its stability (and that is with its beta releases ;) )
As for antiX, well it is ...
120 • re 119 (by Anonymous on 2009-02-08 01:04:36 GMT from Canada)
According to http://www.kernel.org/ the latest stable version of the Linux kernel is 2.6.28.4
Mepis just updated to kernel 2.6.27.12. Of course it is stable because it uses an old kernel.
121 • #120 Exactly that is the point (by anticapitalista on 2009-02-08 01:12:40 GMT from Greece)
Name a distro that is using 2.6.28.4?
(apart from sidux that at the time of posting is using 2.6.28.3)
122 • re 121 (by Anonymous on 2009-02-08 06:38:29 GMT from Canada)
The point is that a development release should include at least the latest stable packages if not beta or release candidate software. That's why it is a development release. I don't know about other distros but at least Mandriva 2009.1 got 2.6.28.3.
[corneliu@localhost ~]$ uname -a
Linux localhost 2.6.28.3-desktop-1mnb #1 SMP Wed Feb 4 12:42:39 EST 2009 x86_64 Intel(R) Pentium(R) D CPU 2.66GHz GNU/Linux
[corneliu@localhost ~]$
123 • the "best" distro (by J.B. on 2009-02-08 12:04:36 GMT from United States)
"On my machine," or "on the machine(s) I've used (name the distro) on.
That caveat should be included in our remarks about linux distros, in my opinion. Saying "(name the distro) is the best distro out there" only states our current successes with that distro, at best.
Also, this or that distro being under-rated won't make sense to those of us who have tried that one, Mepis in this case, on several different machines without success.
Right now I could post in here, "Mint is the best distro" despite the fact that Mints earlier than 6 would not function on this laptop or our older PCs in the house or on three fairly new PCs at work.
The moving targets of so many different machines AND so many different levels of linux/computer savy, including tolerance for configuration procedures and workarounds, are all part of what makes up that mythical "best distro out there" statement.
124 • re # 123 (by Glenn on 2009-02-08 14:01:38 GMT from Canada)
Hi J.B
Agree with you!
Also should say "for my purposes"
Well, at least both should be implied in some way.
But I bet that still won't stop the ferocity of some of the disputes on here.
Glenn
125 • Windows cross-compiler (by HappyHat on 2009-02-08 14:42:06 GMT from Canada)
I'm very happy to hear that Fedora 11 may include a cross-compiler to Windows. I work on a number of cross-platform projects and it would be nice to have easier access to tools to build on the "other" platform.
I'm curious as to whether ext4 will be backward compatible with ext3 encrypted file systems.
126 • Re:117 Glenn (by Bill on 2009-02-08 16:27:03 GMT from Canada)
Glenn
I see they are using Crossover and are charging accordingly.
When this distro first showed up, their website was completely different. They clained Ubuntu is "Hard to use", "Hard to install... [due to] cluttered package manager or having to install from the command line"
Just looks shady from the start
127 • Re #126 (by Glenn on 2009-02-09 00:18:20 GMT from Canada)
Hiya Bill
Agree with you.
I believe Linspire was purchased by Xandros. Wonder if there is a connection here.
I had Xandros, bought and paid for. Liked the Distro but was not impressed by the company. Especially when I read somewhee last year that they let go some of their developers. Speculation was that they were going to concentrate on Corporate Market. Maybe this is an attempt at Joe User's desktop by someone who has rights to the stuff. I know their (Xandros's) Desktop is pretty customized and if you try to apply updates to it, you blow it up. I suspect this is the same.
I do have a problem where they state that almost all Windows Programs can run under it. I run crossover and that statement is a bit of an exaggeration. I have not tested Imagic so I am open to correction on that assumption on my part.
Oh well.
Glenn
128 • SimplyMEPIS is better than Ubuntu (by joe on 2009-02-09 02:39:04 GMT from United States)
I read many linux related blog, I've not seen anybody mention about SimplyMEPIS linux which in my opinion is much much better than ubuntu in
term of stable (SimplyMEPIS is super stable, you can run multiple task without any sign of performance suffered, but Ubuntu not) and compatible with many more computers. They both are Debian inside, but Ubuntu get freeze up too much and can not be installed on some computer when MEPIS does. Ubuntu developer teams should take a look at source code of MEPIS and use it to improve the next version of Ubuntu. I don't mind to pay $5 to support the work of people or company that makes user friendly and good stable linux.
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