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1 • Oh well... (by Béranger on 2008-12-08 10:33:27 GMT from Romania)
...for the last time I read DWW (and DW) with almost genuine interest, I'd say that the review of VL fails to mention that they seem to try to mimic KDE4 in the look department, which I find plainly dumb.
OTOH, I'd have liked you to find a way to mention somewhere this bit of real life (you know from where): "Firefox crashes have gotten so bad I'm writing this from Opera. I like to support Open Source products but they have to actually work. Firefox 3.0.4 is almost as unusable as the 1.5.x series, at least on Linux." (Indeed, FF 3.0.4 works kinda better on Win32, or at least not worse than IE8b2)
2 • RE: Beranger (by AbacusMonkey on 2008-12-08 10:49:50 GMT from Australia)
Something worse than IE8b2?
3 • VectorLinux (by Anonymous Penguin on 2008-12-08 11:07:35 GMT from Italy)
I wonder if they have been able to solve the age-old problem: LILO doesn't install into root partition. I have tried Vector and all its derivatives on countless hardware, but it has never changed, till now.
4 • OzOs link (by Chaitanya on 2008-12-08 11:09:54 GMT from India)
OzOs links to Wifislax...
5 • Re. 1 (by uz64 on 2008-12-08 11:11:08 GMT from United States)
"...for the last time I read DWW (and DW) with almost genuine interest, I'd say that the review of VL fails to mention that they seem to try to mimic KDE4 in the look department, which I find plainly dumb."
Really? I first thought of Vista. Probably because that's what KDE is ripping off with KDE4, and the new Vector looks just like it. I like themes--always did--but I wish people would come up with something more than a cheap knock-off of Microsoft's latest theme for a change.
6 • OzOs (by verdegal37 on 2008-12-08 11:15:56 GMT from Spain)
The excellent work done on this distro.
Thanks Rui , Aubrey , Rav etc.
I wish them the best and continued in this way.
I like Enlightenment.
Greetings:
Agust
7 • RE: #Firefox 3 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2008-12-08 11:17:32 GMT from Italy)
I also find Firefox 3 a piece of utter crap. They did like the KDE people: they abandoned a winning horse for a losing one.
8 • RE: # 4 (by Googled it = so simple on 2008-12-08 11:19:35 GMT from Australia)
Try: http://www.cafelinux.org/OzOs/
9 • RE: # 4 (by so simple on 2008-12-08 11:27:42 GMT from Australia)
Or from the "Select Distribution" box at the top of DW or DWW you can select it.
See: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ozos
Lavislav you must be getting very tired these days ?
10 • Mandriva (by anonymous coward on 2008-12-08 11:53:36 GMT from United States)
"it appears Mandriva will not be focusing on the community, at least for now"
Now the cynical part of me says "what's new," in regards to Mandriva community support with the notable exception of Adam W. The skeptic in me asks if this is a viable business decision, i.e. knowingly turning you back on the community - the community that saved you in the past.
Good time for PcLinuxOS 2009 debut.
11 • RE: OzOs (by ladislav on 2008-12-08 12:02:42 GMT from Taiwan)
Here is a handy shortcut for getting to any distro page:
http://distrowatch.com/$distro
So for OzOs, you can type this:
http://distrowatch.com/ozos
12 • VLinux (by Greg on 2008-12-08 12:42:31 GMT from Greece)
Judging from the screenshots, although i doubt i am wrong, vpackager seems like epic fail.
The graphical installer seems to be significantly better.
13 • DW (by Craig B. at 2008-12-08 13:04:27 GMT from United States)
Just a big thanks to Caitlyn for filling in on DWW. Nice job, and hope to see you again soon!
14 • Browser Wars (by Gene Venable on 2008-12-08 13:15:37 GMT from United States)
It seems that we are moving from DistroWars to Browser Wars. So be it. I don't have any problems with Firefox 3, in Linux or Windows, or with Opera, for that matter. But in Windows my browser of choice is Google Chrome. I went back to Dillo in Linux after last week's DistroWatch award notice, and it seems to be the best text/alternative browser at rendering the news sites I mostly frequent. I tried a passel of the others and I didn't find any that made the NY Times, for example, very readable or natural looking. But Dillo was pretty good; not as pretty as any of the mainline browsers but very fast, and I didn't mind its way of handling bookmarks.
I'm still running Sidux and may temporarily replace Linux Mint with OpenSolaris just to see what all the talk is about. I tried it before, but it pays to go back and retest. Although I have a Shuttle computer, I quickly abandoned Foresight becaused my computer was crashing too often with the Shuttle-installed Foresight, but maybe the newer version fixed things. The software selection seemed pretty limited as well, but maybe that has also improved.
15 • KDE4 - The4 Future is Bright! (by Miq on 2008-12-08 13:25:24 GMT from Sweden)
@5: "I first thought of Vista ... because that's what KDE is ripping off with KDE4 ... I wish people would come up with something more than a cheap knock-off of Microsoft's latest theme for a change."
First, all DEs always borrow inspiration from each other. That doesn't make them carbon copies or have them work the same way. There are more to DEs than immediate appearance from screenshots. That said, I have never found KDE4 particularly reminiscent of Vista. Desktop widgets is part of a current DE evolution that is shared among many platforms, and to provide an anecdotal example, I use KDE4 and have an absolutely gorgeous DE that is extremely functional and doesn't look at all like Windows.
@7: "I also find Firefox 3 a piece of utter crap. They did like the KDE people: they abandoned a winning horse for a losing one."
Ooo, a double whammy FUD without backing! First, Firefox 3 works like a dream for me. It is efficient, stable and secure. If you don't like the AwesomeBar you can get FF2 behaviour you know. Minefield (FF3.1) is a blazing greyhound! KDE4 has not abandoned a winning horse, the KDE3 line is updated if you prefer it and KDE4 is extremely sleek, attractive, functional and spells the current future of DEsl in fact, it leaves all other current alternatives in its wake on all fronts: appearance, efficiency, extendability and usability.
It is ironic that the critique that the Gnome crowd bays at KDE4 right now is exactly the same critique that KDE fanboys screamed at Gnome when that was new and a barely functional piece of junk. Gnome has come a long way since then, and why would KDE4 become worse rather than improve (from an already impressive and enjoyable state now) over time?
16 • @ #14 (by Andrew on 2008-12-08 13:31:58 GMT from United States)
Over the last few weeks I've been looking into some new browsers, I've been most impressed with hv3 and Arora. hv3 is basically dillo + javascript and arora is the first webkit browser I've found that works decently on linux (with the exception of flash).
17 • BotHunter (by Michael Dotson on 2008-12-08 13:54:14 GMT from United States)
This is a side issue to todays Distrowatch. I recently came across a story in the NY Times on-line web-page about a program callled BotHunter that works across all platforms, including linux. The obvious purpose is to hunt down malware. A live CD version based on Ubuntu is available as well as a tar.gz package. Perhaps I am just behind the curve, but I have never heard of this program until today and was wondering if anyone has had experience with it, and if so how well it works? The address is www.bothunter.net, and for the live cd as follows
: # * Live CD Distribution v1.0.2 (Official Release) - 17 November 2008
# BotHunter-LiveCD.v1.0.2.torrent [bittorrent only - 665.3MBs]
# (torrent file MD5 = 8617b7ca4c996a4b43cf42589c06beff)
# (ISO Image MD5 = 137c96d67d0f8605042a8cb92a3bf8dc)
# Live-CD: this is a self-booting ISO image of BotHunter operating on Ubuntu
Linux
18 • Mandriva (and VL) (by Barnabyh on 2008-12-08 14:15:03 GMT from South Africa)
In the case of Adam W, I doubt he's been paid sh#tloads, and what's 50 000 or so to a business. Their reputation in the community and gaining/keeping mind share should be worth more than that.
Bearing in mind that Mandriva never fully recovered and regained its previous spot after earlier disasters, most notably the Club thing, this time there'll be no way back. They'll always be somewhere in the midfield.
Vectorlinux has got what I long struggled to describe and now would call 'clunky shinyness'. Somehow the looks aren't doing it for me any more, although I really liked and ran 5.01 three years ago or more. That's for the artwork. Also, why does every distro these days have to add control panels for everything? Apparently to distinguish them from another which of course has their own CP which allows you to do slightly diferent things in a slightly different way. Gosh. There don't seem to be many avenues of evolution left.
19 • FUD (by Rob on 2008-12-08 14:16:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
@ (15)
I agree with your points made.
I've lost count the times I've raged at changing directions within Linux over the years.
LILO to GRUB, HAL, Xorg, Pulseaudio, the list goes on.
Whether it's DE's or anything else I guess you just have to put up with gritted teeth and weather the storm, or learn to code oneself.
For all the FUD and rage I guess I'll just have to wait :-)
20 • re 10 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-08 14:20:30 GMT from Germany)
Now the cynical part of me says "what's new," in regards to Mandriva community support with the notable exception of Adam W. The skeptic in me asks if this is a viable business decision, i.e. knowingly turning you back on the community - the community that saved you in the past.
Good time for PcLinuxOS 2009 debut.
Really? Why would people choose PCLinuxOS over Mandriva?
1. The new PCLinuxOS version uses an older kernel.
2. PCLinuxOS uses an older version of KDE. Mandriva 2009.1 alpha 2 will have KDE 4.2 beta as default DE. To my knowledge it will be the first development release that has KDE 4.2 as default. I read only good thing about KDE 4.2
3. PCLinuxOS releases every two years. Mandriva has a more active development cycle.
4. In contrast to PCLinusOS forums the attitude of the moderators in Mandriva forums is outstanding. Also Adam said that he will probably continue to contribute as much as his future job will permit.
21 • Fool me once, shame on you... (by davemc on 2008-12-08 14:29:18 GMT from United States)
"it appears Mandriva will not be focusing on the community, at least for now"
I hate to say it, but not really - TOLD YA!! HAHAH!!
Mandriva has no respect whatsoever for its own gullible community. I felt sorry for you guys after they did this to you the last time, but now all I can say is that if you continue to support Mandriva in any way, then you should not be surprised with how you get treated by them. Wow, and I very nearly had got to the point where I was actually going to bite the bullit and give the latest Mandriva a try, but now?.. Mandriva will never be allowed anywhere near any of my systems. Not even the older ones that will soon be discarded - I wouldn't want to insult them in that way before laying them to rest.
22 • Browsers (by Barnabyh on 2008-12-08 14:31:43 GMT from South Africa)
FF3.0.3 seems to work alright here and has not crashed once, just like FF2 over about a year and a half, and it's fast too. And that's with 20 tabs open sometimes. Although it seem to get sluggish in terms of response over time.
I have to say though that due to EULA I have reinstalled Seamonkey as an old favourite and it also got plenty of extensions working with it. As a result I'm using FF less now, and more SM and Konqueror, and sometimes even graphical Links.
So long and enjoy.
23 • Browsers and Tinycore (by Sertse on 2008-12-08 14:50:30 GMT from Australia)
After the comments from last week's DW, I've turned convert for Hv3. It's crazy fast and renders not completely bad either.
Oh, what does everyone here think of TinyCore? It's a 10 meg distro loosely based on DSL; with some drama as the circumstances surrounding the fork..
http://damnsmalllinux.org/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=4;t=20537
It was released last week and seems to be all the rage from where I'm at. http://tinycorelinux.com/
24 • A few responses (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-08 15:09:15 GMT from United States)
#1: The comment you quote regarding Firefox is mine, of course. With VL 6.0 beta2 all the crashes tie back to Flash. If I rip out the Flash plugin or else upgrade it to Glash 10 beta Firefox becomes stable. Please remember that Vector Linux 6.0 is beta software so I will simply report the issue and hope they change the Flash plugin before final release. Vector Linux comes with Firefox, Seamonkey, Opera, and Dillo. HV3, Netsurf, and elinks are in the repository. If you don't like one browser then use another.
Regarding the look and feel: I never include that in a review. Why? It so darned easy to change. Naturally I show the default desktop in the review and I honestly think it looks OK. MY own desktop has two panels, both narrower, top and bottom. A single panel just doesn't have enough room for me. I also always change the wallpaper.
25 • #12 vpackager (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-08 15:13:29 GMT from United States)
#12: vpackager has been around since the 5.9 release of Vector Linux. It really and truly does work well. Why do you assume it is problematic? Have you tried it? vpackager is one of the things that is unique to Vector Linux. Nobody else has anything like it that I've seen.
26 • Vista Imitations (by Dick Cheney on 2008-12-08 15:14:12 GMT from United States)
Just curious, what's the matter with imitating Vista's theme?
I suppose you mean the fact that some distros have a black bottom panel by default. Meanwhile, back to the big problems in the world...
I seem to recall Gates and Ballmer getting upset with all the questions about Vista being a copy of OS X. Microsoft is successful only because they are really good at using other folk's ideas. Sam Walton made quite a few billions copying what his competitors did well. Bill Clinton made a successful political career out of it. Copying happens, big deal. It's the ability to copy from various sources and put out a product that is a mix of good ideas that is innovation.
By the way, if you happen to not like the theme, one thing Linux didn't copy from Microsoft is restrictions on use of the OS. It's, like, possible to change it.
27 • mandriva, browser wars (by matt at 2008-12-08 15:26:34 GMT from Canada)
first off, i loved mandriva until the recent news of the firing of AW. a mandriva release will never be allowed on any of my computers ever again. i've temporaraly switched to ubuntu and am waiting for another good distro to come along (that's not in beta or RC stage).
as for browser wars, i don't mind firefox 3, i've tried all the text based ones and can't figure them out (i'm not the best with those kinds of things), and opera is no longer available in the ubuntu package manager and so i'm not even going to bother with it. that's how i look for software through my system, i'm not going to venture into any CL stuff if i don't have to and so if opera is gone then too bad.
28 • Mandriva vs PCLinuxOS (by lightrider on 2008-12-08 15:27:52 GMT from United States)
To #20;
I, for one user of PCLinuxOS, get a great deal of amusement out of any Mandriva user
whining about PCLinuxOS. Obviously your thick skull refuses to process the words
"Radically Simple" and therefore Mandriva can continue to pound you into submission.
Just installed PCLinuxOS 2009 tr5 on my new computer and everything just works.
They know that's what counts, and they deliver.
29 • Mandriva (by Tony on 2008-12-08 15:45:07 GMT from United States)
"...Mandriva will not be focusing on the community, at least for now."
The above statement about says it all!
--
If Mandriva will not be focusing on "'their'" community, why should the (Linux) community focus on OR use Mandriva?
If Mandriva doesn't want to be involved with the community - so be it!!
30 • OpenSolaris (by BlueJayofEvil on 2008-12-08 15:45:16 GMT from United States)
I installed the new OpenSolaris and must say it's quite decent. It's still got work to do to be a really viable desktop competitor but the future looks bright for Sun's project.
31 • Mandriva (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-08 16:19:56 GMT from Canada)
First off:
"...Mandriva will not be focusing on the community, at least for now."
Several people seem to be assuming that's what Herve said. It isn't. It's whoever wrote this week's DWW's gloss on the issue, and it's entirely wrong. What Herve said is:
"Once we are through this arduous passage, we plan to re-think and reinforce the community template."
Nowhere does that say "...but right now we don't give a toss, so go use Ubuntu". It says we're going to change (and improve) things in the near future, it doesn't say that, right now, we're making them worse.
I posted this recently to the forums, it applies here too:
"I can't control anyone's reaction, of course, but I'd be really sad if this led to pain for Mandriva, the distribution. I've always been here, doing this job, because I love Mandriva the distribution and the community. I'm going to stick around those as long as they're still here, and I'd be really happy if the rest of you guys do that too. Whatever problems the company has, Mandriva to me is first and foremost a bunch of great, crazy people who believe we can make the best operating system in the world with a few dozen engineers and a lot of duct tape, and we're doing pretty damn well at it, I like to think. So I want that to keep going as long as it can."
To add to that - I don't find the reaction of "they fired Adam, I'm going to quit using Mandriva!" very logical. Let's follow the logic. I was paid to represent the user community, mostly by via the official forums and sites like these. As Mandriva will no longer be paying someone to do this, apparently you no longer wish to use Mandriva.
So, what else are you going to use? I see suggestions of...Ubuntu? No, Canonical doesn't pay anyone to do what I do. There's no Canonical employee spending his weekends defending Ubuntu in bunfights here. They rely on you suckers to do that for free ;). If you go to the Ubuntu forums and post a question you'll get lots of replies, but it's unlikely one of 'em will be from a Canonical employee. They have a 'community manager', Jono Bacon, and he does an excellent job - but the word 'community' there means 'developer community', not 'user community'.
PCLinuxOS? Ditto. Obviously as they're a community distro they get a pass on it, they don't pay anyone to do anything. But it still doesn't make much sense logically speaking. If you think PCLOS does a fine job without a paid community manager, why can't Mandriva?
...and so it goes. No other distro has anyone who does the same job I did. To put it another way - sure, MDV can't afford to pay me any more, but at least they cared enough to pay me for nearly four years, and are only stopping now because financially there's basically no other choice. No other distributor, as far as I can tell, has paid someone to do the same job I was doing for a single month. No other distributor has jumped forward to snap me up to do the same job for them now. So why is any other distributor any better than Mandriva?
I still believe in Mandriva as a product, and if you want to be a stickler about it, if you use Free or One you're not giving Mandriva the big, evil, profiteering (er...wait a minute) corporation any money. So I'd really hate to see people stop using the distribution just because of what happened to Oden and me.
32 • Mandriva has struggled with identity for years (by Brian Masinick on 2008-12-08 16:24:39 GMT from United States)
When Mandrake first came out, it really set the standard for desktop ease of use. It was one of the first distributions to heavily embrace KDE. At first, ease of use and KDE were the chief differentiators it had from Red Hat, from which it gained its early roots. Mandrake then created an excellent set of drak tools, which even today are among the nicest desktop administrative tools around.
Mandrake never really got far with its commercial end of the business, and attempts to focus there never got far, in my opinion. Therefore, Mandrake sought to obtain business through the acquisition of other assets. Though they did this, it nearly brought them to their knees more than once. When they acquired Conectiva, a Brazilian firm, they changed their name and identity to Mandriva.
To me, instead of improving, at least relative to the market, they have regressed. Mandriva is arguably newer and fresher than the Mandrake of old, but the competition has improved at a much faster rate. Mandriva seeks to combat that by offering cutting, bleeding edge software, which it does well. The quality of their efforts are among the lowest of any of the major distributions in terms of outstanding defects that make it into released software. For that reason, whether the server software is more stable or not (it should be much more stable), that reputation must hurt business.
For me, I generally find Mandriva to be an attractive, useful desktop system for routine use. Hardware detection is excellent. The latest browsers, window managers, and desktop environments are always available to test, so it makes an excellent desktop evaluation platform. I have purchased Mandriva software a number of times to help their cause, and I was a past member of the Club as well. I cannot continue to justify those expenditures though when there are so many easy to use systems that are more stable, and even a few cutting edge systems that have a better track record resolving defects. If I am at all typical, no wonder Mandriva is nearly constantly in trouble. I am disappointed about it, but I have expected a fall out where some vendors don't make it, and the ones with better plans and better execution of their plans succeed. Perhaps it is time to evaluate that again.
I have enjoyed using Mandriva, even the recent 2009 edition. Nevertheless, there are at least a half dozen desktop distributions that I prefer over it, and that pretty well summarizes what has happened to Mandriva from my perspective.
33 • @31 Feelings of betrayed loyalty (by Miq on 2008-12-08 16:30:57 GMT from Sweden)
Adaw, the reason for the massive reactions are probably twofold. First, there is the feeling of a sinking ship, and no-one wants to be the last rat on board.
Secondly, and I think ESR would agree with me here, the Linux community am very much a community of loyalty and being together against "the man", which in context means alternatively Microsoft (and what it represents) and the normal business practices. When you were fired it was likely felt by many as a betrayal not only of someone who has done a great deal of good promoting linux, but of a (perhaps involuntary) representative the Linux community, and more than that, but a "CEO" of a "company" == evil.
In Linux, people feel loyalty to fellows, not to companies, to Ubuntu rather than Canonical, to their fellow tribesman rather than a remote and irrelevant sovereign.
34 • New link for Vector Linux 6.0 beta 2 bug reports (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-08 16:50:49 GMT from United States)
The public release of Vector Linux Standard 6.0 beta 2 happened after this week's DWW was written. They've started a new bug reports thread. The link in the story is actually for beta 1. The new place to report bugs is:
http://forum.vectorlinux.com/index.php?topic=7908.0
35 • @33 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-08 17:16:08 GMT from Canada)
I see your point. However, as I'm a former tribesman who betrayed his fellows by accepting the coin of The Man, surely my demise should be celebrated in story and song, not seen as a reason for mass exodus to the townships? :)
@32, all I can say is I disagree strongly with your central point, that "The quality of their efforts are among the lowest of any of the major distributions in terms of outstanding defects that make it into released software." I think our release quality has been second to none for at least two years. Yes, 2009 is slightly lower in this respect than 2008 Spring, but that is almost entirely as a result of the effort to integrate KDE 4, and all other distributions are struggling equally with that problem.
36 • vpackage (by Airdrik on 2008-12-08 17:23:39 GMT from United States)
I just wanted to point out that vpackage isn't the first of its kind. There's also Kompile (http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=30223) which has been around for a while. Granted, Kompile doesn't have all of the flexibility of configuration as vpackage touts, but it works well with any package which only requires extract+configure+make+(su/sudo)make install.
37 • Mandriva (by anonymous coward on 2008-12-08 18:02:54 GMT from United States)
...Mandriva will not be focusing on the community, at least for now."
Well, I for one figured this was a direct quote. If it isn't, then this is a very poorly written article. Regardless, I'm not seeing much humility from Hervey, and I guess we could just blame it on being French and all, but nah...
As for the person that says "why PcLinuxOS?," well, install it and see. Any Mandriva castoff will feel right at home. That said, I'm writing this using Firefox3 on Mandriva 2009 (and there haven't been any crashes - but there were a ton of updates to get here!).
38 • Opera no longer in Ubuntu package manager (by Phloid Sirrah on 2008-12-08 18:04:51 GMT from United States)
I use Sidux2008-03 as my work station. And Opera 9.62 as my main browser. The way I install Opera is to download it from Opera web site, choosing the one for the Debian system. I save it and click on the box and the system then installs it.
And as to how the VL desktop looks, I thought that was the whole point of XFCE dm is to able the operator " to modify " to ones own taste?
And thanks Catitlyn for the review.
39 • Small error. (by ruskie on 2008-12-08 18:05:51 GMT from Sweden)
I hope you mean it's built from svn and not cvs? (ozoz)
40 • Paying for Linux (by dialup on 2008-12-08 18:07:54 GMT from United States)
I doubt Linux would exist at its present level of popularity were it not for corporations ponying up employees and (other) $$. So, "Linux is free" is fiction.
As someone who has been using Linux for a while, I was used to (and willing to) buy the box. But broadband has made it easy for the majority of users to download rather than buy. It puzzles me when I read messages that cite lack of financal resourses as a "bragging point" for a distribution. I'd prefer to pay to get releases on a regular basis, reasonably free of bugs.
And the distributions are just a part of it; there are also the applications. DW channels income to projects, but how many distributions and/or users do?
I have no answers to how a user-pay model would work, but given the economic situation, it's reasonable that corporate support will be reduced.
41 • #31, #37: Madriva and quotations (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-08 19:15:49 GMT from United States)
The part of the Mandriva story that reads: "...Mandriva will not be focusing on the community, at least for now." was not in red and not surrounded by quotation marks in the original article. All quotations in DWW (not just this issue but all past issues) are in red. I think it's pretty clear that the one line is NOT a quotation from M. Yahi.
The introduction to each and every DWW starts with these words: "DistroWatch Weekly is a weekly opinion column..." The line in question is my opinion, my take on what is happening at Mandriva based on M. Yahi's written comments. Adam, you called it "gloss" (which is accurate enough) and then went on to dispute it. Let's look again at what M. Yahi actually said:
"Once we are through this arduous passage, we plan to re-think and reinforce the community template."
I do think these words and the company's actions can't really be interpreted in any fashion other than the one I chose. It isn't that Mandriva doesn't care about the community. I honestly believe they do and yes, that includes the CEO. What I do think it means is that Mandriva cannot afford to devote any resources to the community at this point in time. Those who interpret M. Yahi's words or my commentary as Mandriva saying "F#@! the community" are, in my opinion, off base. What I do think Mandriva is saying is that we can't focus on the community now but don't worry, we'll be back and see how we can do a better job with the community in the future.
The real problem, as I see it, is that Mandriva still doesn't have a viable business model. What works for both Red Hat and Novell is a model based on support, consultancy, and training. Both companies are making money this way. The problem Mandriva has is that adopting this business model might work for them but it requires a huge investment in personnel. You need support engineers from the help desk level on up. You need consultants who can do everything from systems integration to troubleshooting difficult problems to architecting solutions. Here in North America Mandriva's presence is nearly nil and they simply don't seem to have the financial resources to ramp up hiring and compete head to head with Red Hat, Novell, and Canonical.
I'm not hostile to Mandriva. Quite the contrary. I rather see the situation as sad and unfortunate for everyone involved.
42 • Thanks, Caitlyn! (by Doug on 2008-12-08 19:41:39 GMT from United States)
Nice job on DWW, as well as your O'Reilly pieces.
***
Sorry to see the DSL community schism, but the 50 MB limit made less and less sense as older machines were retired. Too small to be noobie-friendly (like Puppy and SliTaz) but too bloated to consider a core minimal system. Didn't seem able to compete well with newer mini-distros. A victim of its own success and the unwillingness to truly change (like Puppy).
Gotta try out Tiny Core Linux on my ancient Micron lappy. Looks like a good fit.
43 • @41 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-08 20:14:21 GMT from Canada)
Caitlyn, I wasn't blaming you for those who took your gloss as a direct quote - to me it was clearly separate. I was just explaining for those who were mistaken.
In case you're not aware, 'gloss' is a standard term used to describe exactly this situation - where you provide a quote and immediately give your opinion on it, this is called a 'gloss'. It _is_ related to, but doesn't share the same negative connotations as, the phrase "glossing over". See M-W's definition - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gloss%5B3%5D - but note I didn't mean it in the sense of 1b. :)
44 • @37 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-08 20:19:31 GMT from Canada)
"That said, I'm writing this using Firefox3 on Mandriva 2009 (and there haven't been any crashes - but there were a ton of updates to get here!)."
The majority of the updates are simply KDE 4.1.3. If we hadn't shipped that as an update, there'd be a ton of people saying, well, "ship 4.1.3 as an update!" :)
45 • Mandriva (by Steve on 2008-12-08 20:41:56 GMT from United States)
As a Mandriva end user I very much enjoy this distribution. It is on my computer. My wife uses Windows :(
After distrohopping for years I found Mandrvia. It has been on my computer for over a year. I got tired of endless "tweaking" and Mandriva just worked for me.
I'm sorry to see Adam go, but I will continue to use Mandriva and I look forward to 2009 Spring edition. I currently use 2008 and there is no need to upgrade.
46 • Mandriva's woes, #31 (by Barnabyh on 2008-12-08 20:51:05 GMT from South Africa)
Hi Adam,
nice to see you still stick up for Mandriva. Of the big .rpm based distros they have always been my favourite so I'ld really like to see them do well.
The situation however in my view is this (in reference to your post #31): No other of the bigger players (or with the aspirations to be one) did/does actually have the need to go down this route they have and hire somebody like you to improve liasing with the community and with that their image. The other distros already had managed this or found different ways to do well, only Mandriva seemed clueless and had to actually hire a 'consultant' to handle a big part of the PR amongst others for them. Nothing wrong with that, one company is good at building a community and give people the feeling they matter, engages them etc, another needs a bit of help with that for various reasons (lack of resources, timing what ever else).
Letting you go is ignoring the hidden costs of this action which is likely to be higher than your salary and is highlighting what seems like a perennial problem:
-The inability to make good decisions at corporate level, with a longer term strategic view.
-Reliability, predictability and stability as a business which matters in the corporate world and right now they are damaging how they are perceived. It all feeds into each other.
It seems stupid to give up ground which at some point will cost even more to make up for again. As a business customer I would think more than twice if I should rely on a supplier who doesn't seem to understand their core business (Linux, and the community is inseparable from that), constantly seems to change priorities and seems so financially unstable that they cannot even afford to keep one guy (well actually three that is), especially with all the competition in the market.
Thanks for reading and good luck.
47 • @46 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-08 21:21:19 GMT from Canada)
How dare you, sir! Describing me as a 'consultant'? Them's fighting words. =)
I'm paid as a contractor basically for operational reasons - to pay us remote workers as employees they'd have to deal with all the bureaucracy in our own countries (in Canada they'd have to deal with out tax agencies, paying EI contributions etc), which is a bit of a waste of resources for one or two people per country. Paying us as contractors avoids all that malarkey. Effectively we were all full-time MDV staff. I'm not some kind of freelance community troubleshooting consultant or something. I was initially hired to write a newsletter and proofread press releases, everything else I do sort of developed over time and it's all been within Mandriva. I stick to the point of view that, rather than being *forced* to pay someone like me to do what I do because otherwise everyone would hate Mandriva, MDV is the only company *smart* enough to realize that it's worthwhile to pay someone to do what I do. I don't think it's at all correct to say that the other distributors wouldn't benefit from someone in a similar role, I think they would.
48 • Vector (by Selket on 2008-12-09 07:04:20 GMT from China)
I really like vector only thing i dont like was the fact that u can set up mount point s during install for all sort of stuff except boot. that fucked up my installation once.
But all in all nice linux.
Reminds me a it of Archlinux to be honest.
Btw i didnt -Syu`ed for one week now brb....
49 • Business Model? (by Anonymous on 2008-12-09 08:21:10 GMT from United States)
The real problem, as I see it, is that Mandriva still doesn't have a viable business model. What works for both Red Hat and Novell is a model based on support, consultancy, and training. Both companies are making money this way.
Red Hat and Novell focus mainly on the server with their "desktops" being high-end workstations with fairly lucrative corporate contracts. Mandriva has historically been consumer desktop oriented and does that very well. However, very few consumers have the time it takes to adjust to a posix-compliant environment, and those that do have the time, for the most part, are not willing to pay for it. This includes being willing to pay for a support contract.
So, basically, you are implying that Mandriva should stop doing what has actually made them effective as a distribution and become yet another corporate workstation clone supplier, that would be a sad thing to witness, made all the more sad as it would leave Ubuntu as the only corporate backed consumer oriented Linux distribution.
50 • Can I have a 'collective comment'? (by Béranger on 2008-12-09 10:30:16 GMT from Romania)
RE: 24 • A few responses
With VL 6.0 beta2 all the crashes tie back to Flash.
Couldn't VL use Flash through nspluginwrapper, the same way Fedora is using it even on 32-bit?
Regarding the look and feel: I never include that in a review. Why? It so darned easy to change.
Not necessarily true. If it looks like shit, if it feels... oh, wait. Anyway, it's THEMING (window decorations, KDM, boot, etc), not just changing the wallpaper.
------------------------------
RE: 31 • Mandriva (by Adam Williamson
Several people seem to be assuming that's what Herve said. It isn't.
Still, Hervé was eating shit. I guess he has not changed the menu yet.
------------------------------
RE: 35 • @33 (by Adam Williamson
However, as I'm a former tribesman who betrayed his fellows by accepting the coin of The Man
Are you already on the payroll of Canonical, and nobody SCREAMED WITH BIG LETTERS YET?!
------------------------------
41 • #31, #37: Madriva and quotations
The real problem, as I see it, is that Mandriva still doesn't have a viable business model. What works for both Red Hat and Novell is a model based on support, consultancy, and training. Both companies are making money this way. [...] Here in North America Mandriva's presence is nearly nil.
They had MCD and they dropped it (can you buy it now?). They still had MCS, but how many people know of it? Quality French Management. And vision too, yeah...
------------------------------
43 • @41 (by Adam Williamson
In case you're not aware, 'gloss' is a standard term used to describe exactly this situation - where you provide a quote and immediately give your opinion on it, this is called a 'gloss'.
GLOSS can mean just about anything. To quote the other major Webster, Random House's Unabridged:
gloss1, n.
1. a superficial luster or shine; glaze: the gloss of satin.
2. a false or deceptively good appearance.
3. Also, glosser. a cosmetic that adds sheen or luster, esp. one for the lips.
–v.t.
4. to put a gloss upon.
5. to give a false or deceptively good appearance to: to gloss over flaws in the woodwork.
—Syn.1. See polish. 2. front, pretense.
gloss2, n.
1. an explanation or translation, by means of a marginal or interlinear note, of a technical or unusual expression in a manuscript text.
2. a series of verbal interpretations of a text.
3. a glossary.
4. an artfully misleading interpretation. «-- !!!!!!!!!
–v.t.
5. to insert glosses on; annotate.
6. to place (a word) in a gloss.
7. to give a specious interpretation of; explain away (often fol. by over or away): to gloss over a serious problem with a pat solution.
–v.i.
8. to make glosses.
—Syn.1. comment, annotation. 2. commentary, critique, exegesis, explication. 5. explain, interpret, analyze, explicate.
------------------------------
51 • @47 (by Ned on 2008-12-09 11:03:23 GMT from Austria)
Mr. Williamson,
I read with interest the preceding discussion and the different points of view, which are quite sound.
You - meaning your thoughtful and considerate comments on distrowatch and elsewhere - were the only reason for me to even consider to try out Mandriva; and now that you are gone ...
I think you didn't quite get the point about loyality which was brought up in 33 - you took up his mention of tribesmen. Loyality has got nothing to do with a tribal thinking - it is a general human quality, regardless of the society you happen to live in; but in our society many such qualities are missing, and this is felt by some people - and you'll find quite a few of them in the bunch of people called "the Linux community". As far as I can see, many do use Linux not only out of technical or financial considerations - I know I do, and I notice the same the people in the local Linux meetings I attend, and I read it in comments in the net. It was _your_ perceived human qualities which almost brought me to the point of giving Mandriva a try - and this in spite of my "better knowledge", meaning that they had ousted Mr. Duval, which I still consider a disgrace.
And the comments of the new CEO -
"we plan to re-think and reinforce the community template. Mandriva-based solutions are coming through the pipeline, ready to target our community, a world-wide market and the ensemble of Mandriva's partners. Mandriva is brimming with new ideas aimed at the whole community."
OMG - market-speak par excellence - at least someone standing in front of him had a little benefit of the hot air he was exhaling when uttering these words - not even that, it apparently was in writing.
One could be forgiven to think that the present "arduous" economic situation makes people consider how this came about in the first place - no chance.
On reading the CEO's response it is now clear that Mandriva is on the direct road to bankruptcy, and that rather sooner than later. He'll get out with a nice severance pay, and the rest of the people can see where they're left - anything else is just wishful thinking
Mr. Williamson, I do respect your stand in this affair - but do you really want to support that?
52 • TO Adam (by killer1987 on 2008-12-09 11:06:35 GMT from Italy)
hi adam,
i've read your posts and i can agree with you... the problem is that, unlike other distros, mandriva developers don't hear the community and don't write any post about new stuff and so on.. it's also for this situation that your work was really appreciated. if every mandriva developers will deal about a 1/20 of your work, your contribute will not be no more indispensable. by the way, who will take care of the release pages? good luck, hope you'll find a new job soon.
Bye
Marcello
53 • Business model etc (by Sertse on 2008-12-09 11:51:10 GMT from Australia)
It's an interesting discussion talking about the business models..., I remember a post a while back that amongst the majors, Mandriva is the only one that really tries to make linux its business, where "linux" itself is a key product of the business...the others.
Ubuntu is backed by a multimillionaire who's willing to burn bucketfuls of money as much to promote an cause/movement as it is to actually running a business.
Fedora and OpenSuse are side-projects that are used as a testing bed for their respective companies real businesses.
Debian (and others) are community distributions.
I would add Pardus to this, being the most successful example of the "government driven" distro model.
But with Mandriva's difficulties in mind, how does this say about the viability of "Linux" itself as a business model?
54 • Re:53, Pardus (by Caraibes on 2008-12-09 13:34:28 GMT from Dominican Republic)
>I would add Pardus to this, being the most successful example of the "government driven" distro model.
Indeed... Indeed... I enjoy the concept of a government funded distro... It seems quite neutral.. I wish Pardus was a Gnome based distro ;)
On the other hand, I think the bucketfull of money is quite convenient, and I must say Ubuntu has gained the #1 spot, without any doubt...
55 • RE: 53 • Business model etc (by Béranger on 2008-12-09 14:33:03 GMT from Romania)
Let's troll a bit.
No matter what you want to believe (à la "you believe in God because you want to believe in a god"), Linux as a business model is not viable.
Open source is barely viable as a business model:
-- Firefox lives on Google's money (every Google search YOU made in Firefox gives money to Mozilla... from Google);
-- OpenOffice.org... I dunno, but Sun is laying 6,000 people!
Um... what else? Apache is an interesting example, but I don't know how they get funding...
As long as Canonical says they don't make money out of Ubuntu (not even from the servers business!), as long as Red Hat officially says that the Linux desktop is NOT a profitable business model, as long as Mandriva is a living dead, what else do you want as a proof that being open source or close source has NOTHING to do with profits and business viability?
The problem is that: Sun is (and has been) poorly managed, and OpenSolaris is a joke for the desktop; IBM is practically out of the OS business; the BSDs are small nice dinosaures; etc. etc., which leaves the desktop market to... Microsoft!
(BTW: I would however gladly accept a MacBook Pro for a donation ;))
56 • Adam and Mandriva (by davemc on 2008-12-09 14:40:40 GMT from United States)
Adam - "I stick to the point of view that, rather than being *forced* to pay someone like me to do what I do because otherwise everyone would hate Mandriva, MDV is the only company *smart* enough to realize that it's worthwhile to pay someone to do what I do. I don't think it's at all correct to say that the other distributors wouldn't benefit from someone in a similar role, I think they would."
Mandriva/Mandrake's issues aside, I do think it would definitely benefit a major Distro to have a PR guy. I don't think Ubuntu/Canonical really needs that however, as they seem to be doing all the right things to please just about everyone. I should think perhaps Novell/SUSE might be the best place for you now as they seem to really have a need for someone to go to bat for them. Mandriva has made their bed now and must lie in it.
57 • re: #20 (PCLOS vs Mandriva) (by Tony G at 2008-12-09 15:04:05 GMT from United States)
Really? Why would people choose PCLinuxOS over Mandriva?
1. The new PCLinuxOS version uses an older kernel.
True. But I'm happily still using the 2.6.18.8.tex6 kernel. I could update to a more recent kernel under PCLOS 2007, but haven't, because no hardware issue has prompted me to.
2. PCLinuxOS uses an older version of KDE. Mandriva 2009.1 alpha 2 will have KDE 4.2 beta as default DE. To my knowledge it will be the first development release that has KDE 4.2 as default. I read only good thing about KDE 4.2
I'm still waiting for KDE 4 to come out of beta. :P Honestly, it's a question of taste. I switched to KDE 3 / PCLOS 2007 because I found it intuitive, which I have yet to find KDE 4 to be.
3. PCLinuxOS releases every two years. Mandriva has a more active development cycle.
PCLOS is community-based, and uses a rolling, not static, release. This is apples to oranges.
4. In contrast to PCLinusOS forums the attitude of the moderators in Mandriva forums is outstanding. Also Adam said that he will probably continue to contribute as much as his future job will permit.
The only thing I've found bothersome about the PCLOS forums is their policy to not discuss support of software installed from outside the repos. But I understand this decision.
I found my last experiment with Mandriva (2008.1) off-putting, in that one needed to use Mandriva's version of GRUB to boot it (older versions of GRUB were incapable of booting Mandy). In reading the Mandy forums on the issue, the attitude was along the lines of "Our version of GRUB is current; other distros should catch up." I'd much rather use something less than bleeding-edge, but backwards compatible, than have to rebuild GRUB after removing a tester distro (nevermind the curveball this threw at newbs).
My two cents,
Anthony
58 • another Ubuntu variation (by jack on 2008-12-09 15:46:21 GMT from Canada)
Vibuntu 1.0 - Linux for the Visually Impaired !
The special vision effects sound good to this old geezer
http://www.puppylinux.org/community/blogs/drbongo/vibuntu-10-linux-visually-impaired
I downloaded but was unable to get it to run, Got to "initramfs".
This may be a problem within Ubuntu 8 .10 as I have the same trouble with the installed version of Ubuntu 8.10. However repeating "reset" and "exit" a few times gets the installed version to run.
The same problem with Ultimate Edition.
This happens on 2 computers.
59 • @57 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-09 15:56:25 GMT from Canada)
The issue is not actually to do with grub directly, it's extfsprogs, the tools that create and manage ext2/ext3 partitions. The version shipped with 2008 Spring was a fairly new (at the time) one which used by default 256-byte inodes rather than 128-byte. The reason for this is to ease future transition to ext4: ext3 partitions with 256-byte inodes will be convertible on-the-fly, without data loss, to ext4 (just as you can convert ext2 to ext3), but ext3 partitions with inodes smaller than 256 bytes will not.
Grub had to be updated to cope with 256 byte inodes, and many distros did not do this patch.
Of course, we could have delayed the switch to 256-byte inodes...but then, if we had done that, then all 2008 Spring-created partitions would not be upgradable to ext4. We think the benefit of easy future migration outweighs the problem of having to build or find a sufficiently recent grub. After all, you can always just use MDV's grub.
60 • @56 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-09 15:59:10 GMT from Canada)
I don't really view my role as being a 'PR guy'. I think of it entirely in terms of providing help and information to current and future users. ;)
I wouldn't work for Novell (on the basis of the Microsoft deal), though I respect the good work done there by many of their employees. Haven't had any contact with them, and I wouldn't send an application. I wasn't advertising my services, exactly, I was just defending the importance of doing what I do.
61 • RE: 55 Where do you stand? (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-12-09 16:31:41 GMT from United States)
So I take it from your comments that you have jumped on the closed source bandwagon. Are you switching to Apple and OSX or are you sticking with Microsoft? Hey, you're the one who said they were tolling. By the way do you think that only closed source software can provide a viable business model? If so then why?
62 • Re: @55 - When MS people spread FUD (by Anonymous on 2008-12-09 17:13:48 GMT from United States)
The comments at #55 gave me a great big laugh at the so uninformed. Hmm, lets troll over to the other side since it's so wonderful, I mean let us be fair here.
Vista License Fee (Business Edition) $299 U.S.
Vista Maintenance Fee $86 U.S.
AntiVirus $79 U.S.
Connection Access License (5 CAL's is the smallest bundle) $199 U.S.
MS Office (optional) $299 U.S.
wired.com reports that U.S. Companies may lose over $7 billion in lost productivity due to spyware,malware, viruses and trojans. I hope you enjoy cleaning your PC rather than using it. In a third world or first world countries there's nothing appealing about shelling out big money on faulty technology on closed source systems for third party apps and first party licenses.
Restrictive licensing Eula in vista say can only re-assign a current license to another machine just once only. This may be a pain in the assets for some businesses because they constantly move licenses around for new and existing employees. XP had no such restriction but is prone to security issues. You could move the license around on XP as much you needed as long as it ran on one PC.
Adding new hardware to an existing PC like a hard drive triggers reactivation which blows. You cannot install your current license of vista as a VM under your current running license of Vista. One license per PC means one license no matter if it's an actual running PC or virtual. So if you require a Vista VM running under Vista you'll need a second full license ($299). Got to keep Billy rich you know.
Ghost does not always work very well in an enterprise situation. You must change the Vista SID, which works out to be a unique ID on your LAN when it communicates with your Windows Server. You must do this if you are ghosting to a another but similar pc. When you do this you nullify your support on that PC from MS. In the current global economic business crisis that we are in now, businesses and goverments are now considering and using proven cost effective alternatives and this is where linux and open sources wins. Bloomberg.com reports that MS is losing big to linux on the netbook
Before decide to spread FUD please next time be fair minded and tell us why you think Vista or a MAC is so great.
63 • Open Suse 11 works great... (by FreeTibet on 2008-12-09 17:49:31 GMT from Canada)
Hi All Linux People,
I just wanted to throw my two cents in concerning Linux working on desktops. Open Suse 11 has worked well on my box since it came out, and I have not had most of the problems that I have had with other distributions. It is a little rough around the edges, but it gives stability which is lacking in many distributions. I don't agree with the deals with Microsoft either, but that doesn't stop me from trying and using their product if it works well.
Have a Great Week All & Thanks Ladislav for your hard work all these years,
Sincerely,
FreeTibet
64 • When the idiots use the "FUD" mantra... (by Béranger on 2008-12-09 19:41:42 GMT from Romania)
61 • RE: 55 Where do you stand? (by Eddie Wilson
closed source software can provide a viable business model? If so then why?
It's not about closed or open source. It's about software that works.
62 • Re: @55 - When MS people spread FUD (by Anonymous
The comments at #55 gave me a great big laugh at the so uninformed.
Sufficient, religiously-bound to Linux people always laugh like a stupid old hag in front of something she doesn't understand.
Vista Maintenance Fee $86 U.S.
This maintenance fee is unnecessary, unless your Management of Information System is a bunch of dumbheads.
AntiVirus $79 U.S.
Antivirus prices vary. I can get one for you for $20 to $49. Note that corporate networks are supposed to have good firewalls -- we do.
Connection Access License (5 CAL's is the smallest bundle) $199 U.S.
Are you an idiot? We're talking of desktops, not of servers! Individual desktops, that is. Less than 1% of them would need remote access.
wired.com reports that U.S. Companies may lose over $7 billion in lost productivity due to spyware,malware, viruses and trojans. I hope you enjoy cleaning your PC rather than using it.
That's because idiocy is widespread. In the company I work for, we had no infection and no data loss in 4 years and 150 desktops and workstation.
Of course, we have ZFS for storage (Solaris).
You cannot install your current license of vista as a VM under your current running license of Vista. One license per PC means one license no matter if it's an actual running PC or virtual. So if you require a Vista VM running under Vista you'll need a second full license ($299). Got to keep Billy rich you know.
99.999% of business desktop usage NEVER needs any virtual second machine. Apparently, you don't know the needs of the typical enterprise desktop user.
Ah, I forgot: we're running XP, not Vista.
Before decide to spread FUD please next time be fair minded and tell us why you think Vista or a MAC is so great.
FUD is a term only used by idiots.
65 • Oops, forgot to close italic tag... (by Béranger on 2008-12-09 19:42:27 GMT from Romania)
66 • @47 (by Barnabyh on 2008-12-09 20:06:31 GMT from South Africa)
Haha, hope I haven't hurt your feelings too much. =)
Well, they don't seem smart any more.
Btw, I loved working as a contractor, just pay me gross and I'll take care of the rest. But not so easy any longer, tax legislation in the UK having changed and all that, thanks Mr Brown. The aim of course is to make you pay more Income Tax and NI, and as an employee you can't offset your expenses in the same way.
Have a good one, and enjoy your status while it lasts.
67 • @64 No Windows vs. Linux flame war please (by Anonymous on 2008-12-09 21:44:52 GMT from United States)
FUD stands for fear uncertainty and doubt. This is the wrong forum for your baseless inflammatory statements. I will not entertain a Windows vs. Linux flame war. People in this forum are highly educated and devoted open source and linux users and developers who enjoy the freedom from ridiculous licensing fees, viruses and malware and from a company who bullies their customers. The European Union Microsoft antitrust case against Microsoft proved how Microsoft abused, OEM's and customers. Microsoft had also lost its appeal against a record 497m euro (£343m; $690m) fine imposed by the European Commission in a long-running competition dispute. Your initial statements bashed everything related to linux without intelligent reasoning. For this you showed you true colors and I will no longer respond to such gibberish.
68 • @67 & @53 (by zak on 2008-12-09 22:30:02 GMT from United States)
Ignore Béranger. One look at his vocabulary is all you need to see he's uninterested in reason. Just ad hominem lines. Look at the noise he made over the word "gloss"...
"Fedora and OpenSuse are side-projects that are used as a testing bed for their respective companies real businesses. "
Ah, no they are not. At least not openSUSE. The only folks using openSUSE as a testbed are (suprise!) the testers (everyone needs a bed, you know...). Novell, in return for sponsorship of openSUSE (they pay a team of devs to work on it), take the community's openSUSE distro and package it up the way they like for their enterprise projects.
Works out rather nice, actually.
69 • @68 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-09 23:17:37 GMT from Canada)
"Novell, in return for sponsorship of openSUSE (they pay a team of devs to work on it), take the community's openSUSE distro and package it up the way they like for their enterprise projects."
Er, so how exactly is that different from openSUSE being a testbed for SLE{S,D} then?
70 • Distribution or Flavour? (by taste test on 2008-12-10 01:22:19 GMT from Canada)
How many of you run distributions and how many run flavours?
71 • RE: # 32 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2008-12-10 03:37:52 GMT from Italy)
"If I am at all typical"
No, you are not, Brian.
You are an old geek :)
I bet you still dream of Libranet, just like me.
You won't recognize this nick, but you have known me at least since the old times of ExtremeTech (and the Libranet forum, of course) :)
72 • Re 71 (by Craig on 2008-12-10 04:03:03 GMT from United States)
I miss Libranet, too. A lot. Especially Adminmenu!!
73 • RE: # 69 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2008-12-10 04:05:23 GMT from Italy)
"Er, so how exactly is that different from openSUSE being a testbed for SLE{S,D} then?"
My opinion (I might be totally wrong) is that openSUSE is a complete desktop distro. You don't need to add anything, only the "forbidden" codecs" (just like Mandriva, you know). You can even buy openSUSE boxed, if you want.
Fedora isn't a a complete desktop distro, IMHO, as Red Hat doesn't believe in desktop Linux. With Fedora you need to do an awful lot of extra work before it becomes usable as a desktop OS. And even after that it has a rather limited choice of software.
P.S. OK, you need to add Nvidia/ATI drivers as well to openSUSE, but that is a one-click install.
74 • RE: # 72 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2008-12-10 04:07:28 GMT from Italy)
"I miss Libranet, too. A lot. Especially Adminmenu!!"
Another old friend, then :)
75 • @73 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-10 06:38:08 GMT from Canada)
It's a fair distinction, but:
a) it's not fair to Fedora. Fedora lacks a lot of things because it is, by policy, 100% free software, not because "Red Hat doesn't believe in desktop Linux."
b) it doesn't mean openSUSE isn't a testbed. Sure, you can buy boxes, but Novell hardly relies on that revenue stream. They've said they only provide it for old-skool SUSE diehards. Novell make their Linux money off SLED and SLES; this is where their development focus is aimed.
76 • @57 Tony G (by davecs on 2008-12-10 07:45:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
Quote: _"The only thing I've found bothersome about the PCLOS forums is their policy to not discuss support of software installed from outside the repos. But I understand this decision."_
PCLOS is designed to make Linux simple for the ordinary user, people who don't mind breaking their systems and re-installing, etc, can go to http://hack.mypclinuxos.com where there is discussion on this sort of thing.
Many of the guys who contribute packages to PCLOS hang out there, so it is semi-official. It's just a question of keeping apart people, non-geeks if you like, who want an easy, 100% stable system and aren't sure what to do if it breaks, and others who want to try stuff and don't mind the risk.
77 • Web Scraping (by anon on 2008-12-10 10:33:18 GMT from Norway)
This is probably o.t., however:
What would you suggest as the easiest method for a non-programmer (myself) to automatically copy specific lines and tables from changing web pages into OpenOffice calc under Linux? Is it at all possible without writing dedicated scripts, or do some suitable application(s) exist?
78 • BLAG (by illiterate on 2008-12-10 11:23:09 GMT from Greece)
Anybody knows what is happening with Blag?
There seems there are no repos any more. And I like it because for me it has the best sound in Linux together with 64Studio and Jacklab. By far.
79 • 64 and 67 (by Todd R. on 2008-12-10 13:39:47 GMT from United States)
Great post, Béranger. Succinct and informative.
Nice try, "anonymous." Spin and irrelevancies.
Linux issues junk for us all to peruse and mess with. We do it here in our house on two of three machines. The other one is for work, therefor Windows stays on it; it's been that way for years and it is obviously the only way for *us* on *our* computers.
And let's get off the "Linux is going to save the world" from Microsoft, saw. If you don't want to "entertain" a Linux vs Windows fight, then never post about the system that is needed to get work done vs the one that is needed if one has a propensity to experiment.
Advice to users: get two machines, or at least two hard drives, or at the very least dual boot. But going "Windows free" is a mistake if you want to get work done day-in and day-out over the long haul.
80 • #79 -- Nice Microsoft commercial (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-10 14:29:23 GMT from United States)
#79 -- Funny, I've been doing all my work without Windows for more than a decade and I find it far easier to be productive on Linux. I've seen servers stay up without a reboot for **years** running Linux or *BSD. I've never seen that with Windows. I've seen company after company ditch Windows in the server room with the sole exception of application servers. If you want to run Windows that's fine. That doesn't mean someone has to run WIndows to get work done. I make a very nice living doing work for companies that have decided that they can get more work done with very little Windows or, increasingly over the last couple of years, none at all.
81 • @24 (by greenLegs on 2008-12-10 14:32:47 GMT from France)
"Regarding the look and feel: I never include that in a review. Why? It so darned easy to change."
Thank you!
82 • #80 - Windows Free (by Verndog on 2008-12-10 16:05:48 GMT from United States)
Yes, it's possible to become Windows free AND to get work done. All at the same time. Trollers abound during this session of comments.
Saying I can't give up Windows, or I do my work on a Windows PC because Linux doesn't have the proper tools, is the same thing as someone overweight saying , I can't lose weight.
I've tried all the diets and nothing works...It's impossible...I lose, then gain it all back....
What's that quote..."If you think you can, or you think you can't, your right!"
83 • @82 (by greenLegs on 2008-12-10 16:57:08 GMT from France)
"Saying I can't give up Windows, or I do my work on a Windows PC because Linux doesn't have the proper tools, is the same thing as someone overweight saying , I can't lose weight."
Bad analogy.
Depends what you want to do. Try to trade Futures under Linux natively.
84 • TinyMe's GRUB (by capricornus on 2008-12-10 19:05:09 GMT from Belgium)
just reporting:
TinyMe 2008.1's GRUB is not recognizing my partition with (excellent) Xubuntu 8.10. Reason for not installing it. It's a pity, but if little Drakes don't behave, they can't join the crowd in my garden.
85 • @82 - giving up windows (by DeniZen on 2008-12-10 19:28:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
"If you think you can, or you think you can't, your right!"
If you simply need to carry out basic office type tasks, listen to a bit of music - maybe even make some music! - and of course generally browse and communicate, then a recent, comprehensive Linux distro will do you fine - and more.
The more demanding (or 'exotic') your needs , the bigger likelihood that you wont be able to rely solely on Linux.
Obvious enough I guess.
No clever quote will be 100% appropriate, nor make the (currently) genuinely impossible happen.
I want photoshop.
I have a Mac as well as a Linux box.
While admirable, please dont tell me that the Gimp and Linux Printer drivers for current Photo Printers, and options for screen calibration under Linux are a good enough combo for me to make a 100% switch.
I wish.
86 • @ 80 (by DeniZen on 2008-12-10 19:41:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Caitlyn,
its clear what you do - and from what I see you clearly do it well - but assuming you refer to your work as a web based article writer / publisher your work orientated needs are not especially demanding of an OS.
No disrespect meant whatsoever, and if I have overlooked something, my apols.
If you were a Fine Art Digital Photographer - for example - you would have to go some to get *everything* done under Linux, without resorting to another mainstream commercial OS for at least some aspects of the workflow.
The oft - quoted 'uptime' aspect is of little practical value to most of us end-users day-to-day, eh?!
87 • #84 TinyME (by Verndog on 2008-12-10 22:39:36 GMT from United States)
Yes, I just installed it and your right. The grub ID doesn't find all the partitions. I just copied another menu.lst to the boot dir and then re-did everything. It's a pain. But now at least it works.
===========
DeniZen , no matter what anyone says your going to find reason why Linux will not work. So for your that's true. For the rest of us, it works. Why don't go and troll at some MS site, since you love it so much. But, apparently you don't or you wouldn't hang out here and try to convince us that Linux can't be used for heavy lifting.
88 • RE: # 75 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2008-12-11 02:47:11 GMT from Italy)
>>it's not fair to Fedora. Fedora lacks a lot of things because it is, by policy, 100% free software, not because "Red Hat doesn't believe in desktop Linux."<<
You could say that of Debian as well, but personally I find it a lot less work turning it into "a proper" desktop OS. Maybe because I know it better or maybe because Debian has powerful tools.
89 • #86: I'll accept that apology (You don't know what I do for a living.) (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-11 04:26:45 GMT from United States)
Denizen: I'll accept that apology because it's clear you don't know what I do for a living. Writing is a nice side line which generates just a little bit of income for me. My primary work as a consultant would be described as systems integration, systems administration (both Linux and commercial UNIX, plus Windows interopreability), and security work (audits, network and system hardening). There is also some network/systems achitecting involved. Before deciding to launch my own consulting firm I worked for companies like Red Hat, Lockheed-Martin, and IBM Global Services. I mainly supported large enterprise clients.
My customers stretch an operating system to it's absolute limits. Generally Windows is just not acceptable for most server infrastructure uses. It doesn't scale well, isn't nearly as stable as either commercial UNIX or Linux, and it's a security nightmare. As the economy worsens there is another motivation driving companies away from Microsoft: cost. It's just plain more expensive to run a Microsoft shop, both in terms of licensing and support costs.
My work is 90-95% server room and 5-10% desktop. Linux on the desktop does exist in corporate America but it is just starting to make serious inroads. Vista is helping that happen. Companies do not want to deploy it.
90 • Mandriva Adam (by techqc on 2008-12-11 06:04:59 GMT from Indonesia)
Wow.
Wow - wow - wow
Mandriva didn't shoot themselves in the foot
- they aimed at their face with a incredible accuracy from point-blank range.
Without the responsive Adam W.'s incredible presence,
their userbase will evaporate faster than dry-ice under Arizona sunshine.
You will not need to remove Mandriva from your list,
that will happen automatically as their userbase vanishes.
Unbelievable how this has turned out.
Mandriva has always been my favorite, but this is a showstopper.
91 • @89 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-11 06:30:47 GMT from Canada)
"My customers stretch an operating system to it's absolute limits."
That would be 'its'. Don't suppose the DW budget stretches to a proofreader? :D
92 • Photoshop (by Yes I can on 2008-12-11 09:45:03 GMT from France)
I can run Photoshop on linux. Photoshop works in Wine.
Maybe some people can't, but I can.
Here is my genious plan for Mandriva:
1. Some big PC manufacturers like Dell and HP/Compaq wake up and see the light ; They install Powerpack on their computer and give 50% of the cost money to Mandriva for support.
2. Mandriva uses that money to re-hire Adam, with a new mission to go skying in Canada with a lot of beer and friends.
3. Adobe ports Photoshop to Mandriva and stops supporting the Windows version.
4. Mandriva gets billions of dollars from PC sales and hires the 6000 people Sun fired.
5. With all the people hired, Mandriva 2010 includes a cure for poverty, hunger and cancer --> urpmi anticancer
6. The world finaly goes round.
93 • Fedora to hire Adam Williamson (by techqc on 2008-12-11 10:11:55 GMT from Indonesia)
Just for those who have given the matter some thought,
vis-a-vis Mandriva vs Fedora:
http://www.petitiononline.com/haw2bypr/petition.html
94 • CrunchBang Linux 8.10.01 (by Diti on 2008-12-11 10:31:10 GMT from Austria)
This one is already a few days old ... I was looking for a lightweight distro for my weak notebook (processor speed is o.k., but not much memory). Though I am really content with antiX I wanted to try another distro. It started installing flawlessly from the live CD: No superfluous questions, correct xorg.conf (de, deadkeys), re-partitioning, etc. But then it got stuck at 73% when copying packages. After half an hour I stopped one or two processes, but at around 80% it froze again. So I decided to use the alternate method described on the download page: Ubuntu mini CD, and then do the rest using CrunchBang's install script. So I finally had a complete perfect system -- except for the performance: my weak old notebook cannot handle this accordingly, it is far too slow for working fluently. I would really like to use CrunchBang Linux, I am pleasd by its appearance and software selection, but for this configuration it is far too heavy.
95 • Sorry ... (by Diti on 2008-12-11 10:32:20 GMT from Austria)
... my mail address was wrong ...
96 • @ 87 Verndog - Linux Works (by DeniZen on 2008-12-11 10:33:35 GMT from United Kingdom)
Verndog, If pointing out a fact is trolling, then heaven save us all.
(Careful what happens to 'dogs when they froth at the mouth)
I use Linux (Debian), I advocate Linux.
I sit here with sysadmins either side of me. We run BSD and Solaris boxes.
At home - I have to use a Mac for some things (at present)
That observation was pertinent to the discussion. How is it Trolling? Why is the snapback reaction always 'go to some Microsoft forum and .. yadda yadda'?
Why would I entertain doing such a thing? I dont use Windows.
@ Caitlyn,
I thought the discussion was along the lines of 'can Linux wholly replace Windows (et al) ' for 'users'. Me, you, Joe the plumber and Mrs Plumber.
But my apologies again regards assumptions made regards your own experience.
97 • Photoshop on linux. Photoshop works in Wine. (by DeniZen on 2008-12-11 11:07:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
re # 92 "I can run Photoshop on linux. Photoshop works in Wine.
Maybe some people can't, but I can."
Thanks for the tip - yes I have got it to 'run' in Wine too.
From my own experience, PS is not (yet) quite stable enough etc to 'use' under Wine - yet. When it is - I'll be very happy. Another step closer to Linux independence.
Until then I'm kinda stuck with running Photoshop on a native platform.
(I'm not trolling).
98 • Photoshop (by Yes I can on 2008-12-11 12:34:07 GMT from France)
On my computer, using wine 1.0 (the stable version), Photoshop version 7.0 works *PERFECTLY*.
99 • Re: 93 (by Tony on 2008-12-11 12:53:16 GMT from United States)
I signed the petition and I hope something comes of it! It took only a moment of my time and it is for a good gentleman!
http://www.petitiononline.com/haw2bypr/petition.html
100 • Petition (by FVM on 2008-12-11 13:47:59 GMT from Canada)
I also signed the petition. I signed it as Tony Cladin, I thought it would look better to have all Tony's signing it. I hope I did it right.
101 • @92 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-11 15:16:24 GMT from Canada)
"2. Mandriva uses that money to re-hire Adam, with a new mission to go skying in Canada with a lot of beer and friends."
What do you mean, "new" mission? *hic*
102 • #96 Chnaging the parameters of the discussion (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-11 18:52:27 GMT from United States)
#96: If the discussion is can Linux replace WIndows on the desktop then why did you assume I don't push an operating system? It seems to me when I made a point you couldn't refute you changed the parameters of the discussion.
Oh, and yes, Linux can replace Windows on the desktop for the average user provided somebody knowledgeable sets it up for them. The average user can't install any OS, and yes that includes Windows. Preloaded Linux systems that are well configured (i.e: a Netbook purchased at your local retailer) also works well for the average user.
I don't see you as sharing facts. I see you sharing an opinion you know to be highly unpopular here.
103 • Asking "Is Linux desktop ready?" too simple a question (by Miq on 2008-12-11 19:34:03 GMT from Sweden)
The discussion about whether Linux is a sufficient replacement alternative to Windows is really a simplified discussion about a somewhat more complex topic. Linux is certainly desktop ready from a usability perspective for everyday users that surf, mail and simply do lighter tasks. For these users the somewhat higher under-the-hood complexity Linux generally have is irrelevant since they usually can't treat any malady affecting their Windows install anyway. For this category of users, given they do not have some exotic hardware (camera, phone etc) too narrow or secretive to be supported on Linux, a FOSS OS is actually preferable to Windows since they can't handle the security vulnerabilities Windows comes with.
The situation is somewhat different for professional users, especially since this is a very diverse constellation with highly varying requirements. For infrastructure networking and backbones Linux/BSD is the currently optimal choice, it is Windows that is the underdog, and a lame one. A sysadmin or web programmer type professional can be as much or more productive on Linux as on Windows. The FOSS situation for ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) systems is also shaky, and this is primarily a Windows market, even though the main actor SAP is moving to Java (which unfortunately has had other detrimental consequences for end users).
When we come to design and aesthetics professionals the situation is quire different. The FOSS alternatives (GIMP and Incscape) aren't viable alternatives to Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, and other (generally Adobe) flagship application suites. The FOSS advocates that f.i. promote GIMP as a Photoshop replacement usually forget (or ignore) that in spite of their self-professed skillz they're actually very light users. As a designer and techie myself the simple truth is that GIMP is a clunky tool while my productivity and expressive power is many times higher in Photoshop, and Incscape is still very immature. So you who find yourself promoting GIMP as a worthy replacement for Photoshop should keep in mind that if you're not graphical designers you're arguing from idealism rather than pragmatics, or, if you're not power-user, wizard, or guru-level graphical designers you are actually not qualified to make such a statement. AS one, however, GIMP doesn't come to competing with Photoshop.
A similar argument can be made for MS Office. The office replacements are fully sufficient for light use: letters, short memos, etc. However, for more design-oriented or feature-intense usage MS's Office is better and more powerful regardless of inapt save format and moral aspects.
Now, these arguments can theoretically be made mote by arguing the WINE compatibility layer. Unfortunately, WINE isn't still fully compatible. While a huge number of application --perhaps most-- works fully or fine under WINE, unfortunately, the critical flagship applications, especially the latest versions, either tend not to work at all, work with limitations, or take a significant performance hit. (There are a few examples of apps that actually runs faster under WINE than genuine Windows, but the older Photoshops, which are those working at all, are not among these).
Thus, the question is not a binary "is Linux desktop ready?", it is rather "for what groups and by what means is Linux desktop ready?". And for professionals in graphical design at least, Windows can't be done away with yet.
104 • No subject (by DeniZen on 2008-12-11 21:05:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
@ 102 - Caitlyn,
I already said I *thought* the discussion was based on something it (apprently) was not - though its hardly clear.
I even apologized (yes - an apology on a forum!)
yet you still see an argument - so
What have you said that i could not refute - that Linux makes a good Enterprise solution?
Sure it does. The best IMO, along with some other *nix
as for quote: "I don't see you as sharing facts. I see you sharing an opinion you know to be highly unpopular here."
I did share an actual experience - is that a fact? i thought it may be?
It may also be an unpopular opinion - to some.
Albeit one based on my own experience (which i clearly state i wish was not the case).
So, are you suggesting such an opinion it 'verboten' round here now? Because its potentially unpopular?
Good grief .. popular and populist opinions only from now on then... (uh-uh)
Now if you will excuse me, I've got some hi-res images to print. On this Mac.
I'll be chillin' and mooching about on my Debian box later, and enjoying it, and proud to advocate to anyone that I am doing so.
105 • is Linux as good as Windows? (by Anonymous on 2008-12-11 21:13:36 GMT from Germany)
NO, it's better.
Well depends what you want to do with your machine. I have been working exclusively on Linux for three years and half. I am a Java developer. The team consists of three people. One uses Windows, one uses Linux (me) and the other uses a Mac. This is to ensure the portability of the application. I am considered very lucky by the Windows guy because even though we have identical hardware his machine plainly sucks while mine is flying when we perform the same tasks. The Mac is in a different league (different hardware) so no comment about it.
So if you want a slow machine full of unnecessary bloat, if you want a machine that in time becomes slower and slower, then yes, Windows would be the better choice.
106 • @102 Is Linux desktop ready? (by FVM on 2008-12-11 21:22:19 GMT from Canada)
You should try tuxpaint for all yer graffic design.
107 • Are We There Yet (every two minutes) (by Landor on 2008-12-11 21:52:50 GMT from Canada)
I've stated a couple major points before, points for me anyway that I came to live without since I use linux based OS' 24/7.
Fiirst off the top of my head and my biggest complaint is Webcams. I'll cede the point regarding it "mainly" being a hardware problem. But to touch on that, I have owned (and still have them, I like to upgrade) 6 webcams since my first webcam many many years ago. Take a guess at how many of these 6 webcams work with any kind of "somewhat" decent quality "1".
Apart from webcams though, let's look at the software. I personally feel there's only 3 IM clients worth mentioning. Amsn, Kopete and Pidgin. Pidgin has no webcam support and from what I've read "might never have". Amsn I've found less than decent when it comes to stability, functionality, quality in the use of the webcam. Kopete (at least in the 3 series versions) the same. Both are more hit and miss when it comes to using them.
Webcams are very mainstream when it comes to "average desktop use", the sales alone justify that statement.
Next is the GIMP. I looked at the new interface and such as someone stated. GIMP is still far from intuitive and I don't think "the average desktop user" (which I am not, nor most of us) would consider it a great replacement for their everyday "average" photo correction use, not with it's learning curve.
OpenOffice...When it can format properly with printing, always, and I've yet to see any version do this perfectly I will take it off the list.
Browser speed issues are another big one. I use linux on a variety of boxes and I can say without a doubt it's not hardware when I say that the browser speed is far slower in Linux than windows. This has always been the case in my personal opinion. You might say well, it's only a couple seconds, but I'll counter with, a performance hit is just that, regardless.
I could list quite a number more, but those are things that are clearly "average desktop use for the average desktop user" that are either showstoppers or enough to make people reconsider a full-time switch when their computer "already" comes with an OS that handes those things perfectly, or has the software available to it to.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
108 • Linux adoption grows.... (by Slowly but Surely on 2008-12-11 23:29:18 GMT from Australia)
HP Expands Easy-to-use Virtual Protection Tool, Desktop Linux Offering for Small Business Customers
HP today announced the expansion of its virtualized browsing solution across select business desktop products and its plans to introduce Linux as an operating system choice for business desktop customers.
[...]
Pricing and availability
The Mozilla Firefox for HP Virtual Solution is planned to be available worldwide by end of year at no additional cost on the new business desktop models referenced above, with the HP Compaq dx2390 available outside the United States.
The HP Compaq dc5850 with SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop is expected to be available Dec. 15 in North America at a U.S. street price of $519. (1)
[..]
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2008/081210a.html?jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN
109 • BSD get killer app and it's free! (by Anonymous on 2008-12-12 03:41:29 GMT from United States)
Now that PC-BSD 7.0.2 has been released there has been a killer app for it quite for some time now turn free for non-commercial use. It is called Win4BSD from the makers of Win4Lin. Run you Windows legacy apps in a sandbox surrounded by BSD's legendary robust security.
Free download and free registration key available on the Win4BSD site at:
http://win4bsd.com/wp/get-win4bsd/
110 • KDE 4 for KDE 3 users (by KDE 3 user on 2008-12-12 22:27:35 GMT from Australia)
December 12, 2008
KDE 4 for KDE 3 users
Filed under: kde, opensuse — mschlander
Since the release of KDE 4.0 11 months ago, there’s been a whole lot of heated debate going on, on blogs, mailing lists, forums, IRC and basically any other media you can imagine. The complaints seem to come in waves though - everytime there’s a KDE release or a major distribution release with KDE 4, a new wave of angry complaining people seems to appear out of the blue, putting forward the exact same complaints other people have already been presenting all over the net for months. It would actually be kind of funny to observe the phenomenon, if only they weren’t so loud and angry.
Since the release of openSUSE 11.1 with KDE 4.1.3 is imminent I thought I’d prepare a little something for the upcoming wave of frustrated people. Many other KDE4 FAQs and introductions already exist, but they’re not invented here. I’ll try to keep it short and broad, since almost all the complaints fall into three basic categories.
[....]
This post won’t do much to alleviate the inconveniences with migration in a practical sense, but hopefully it’ll help some people migrating from KDE 3 to KDE 4 to understand what’s going on and why, and see things in a bigger perspective.
It’s also interesting that generally the most unhappy users are long time KDE 3 users - whereas users of GNOME or Microsoft Windows etc. don’t seem to have all these problems when they try KDE 4. I guess they approach KDE 4 with more of an open mind, intending to try something new and different, instead of expecting to find their former desktop environment++, maybe KDE 3 users can learn from that approach.
PS: KDE 3.5 is included in openSUSE 11.1, for the last time(!!). It’s under “Other” in the Desktop selection step of DVD installations.
http://mschlander.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/kde-4-for-kde-3-users/
111 • RE: # 11o (by Anonymous Penguin on 2008-12-12 22:45:12 GMT from Italy)
"It’s also interesting that generally the most unhappy users are long time KDE 3 users"
Exactly. We were proud to use what we believed to be the best DE in the world.
And now we feel betrayed.
112 • Photoshop/Gimp (by RollMeAway on 2008-12-13 01:40:07 GMT from United States)
While I only play with Gimp, serious users may want to check this:
http://ostatic.com/blog/6-ways-to-get-much-more-out-of-gimp
Quote:
Many GIMP users who use or have previously used Photoshop swear by GIMPshop,
(http://gimpshop.com/)
which is essentially a hack of GIMP that gives it an interface equivalent to Photoshop's, right down to individual menu choices and terminology used. In fact, it's so close in interface to Photoshop that, using it, you can follow the thousands of Photoshop tutorials available online in GIMP. Mac, Windows and Linux users can install GIMPshop.
113 • KDE4 and GNOME - Proud KDE3 user now also proud KDE4 user (by Miq on 2008-12-13 10:35:03 GMT from Sweden)
@ "KDE3 User" (in #110): It is interesting to note that the criticism directed at KDE4 now was the exact criticism delivered by the KDE camp at GNOME at its inception and first releases. GNOME then advocated and introduced concepts at least radical if not revolutionary to the same extent as KDE4's enough to be flakked by people being shifted from their comfort zone. As we know, GNOME meant pressure for KDE to develop, and today KDE4 is the revolutionary paradigm pusher and thus on the receiving end of fearful flames from people unwittingly turned conservatives by their established usage habits.
KDE was always a bit more incongruous than what GNOME turned into and though it was more adaptable and possible to make into something miles more aesthetically pleasing than GNOME it also required more effort and even technical skills to make it so, and since most people are lazy over time GNOME won over those that wanted a consistent and sufficiently pleasing DE for the least effort. GNOME didn't deliver a revolution in usability but it did simplify and make consistent DE management and presentation. KDE4 now is doing this while retaining the adaptability and feature-richness KDE is famous for AND immensely improving usability at the same time. WIth time it will bring back as many distros and users from GNOME as GNOME has been siphoning away from KDE3, and GNOME will find itself the second choice (or perhaps even sharing rank alongside XFce and fluxbox et al). This will of course pressure GNOME3 into "radical" evolution which will cause much the same reactions as KDE4 has endured. Everything is cyclic, it all comes again.
@ Anonymous Penguin (#111), I am a long-time KDE user and I feel VERY proud of being part of the ongoing KDE revolution. KDE3 is still supported with new updates coming and will continue to come for a long time. Meanwhile KDE4 is going from strength to strength at breakneck speed. Every new iteration brings more stability, usability, efficiency, features, customisability, aesthetics and ported software.
---
@112: Thank you VERY much for the heads-up about GIMPshop, that might actually help bridging some of those gaps I talked about in my lengthy post above! Of course, it is based in GIMP which still lacks some high-end features necessary for some production aspects (certain colour spaces etc) but that is just a matter of implementation. I couldn't find it in my Mandriva RPMs, but I'm anxious to try it!
(Also thanks to FVM in #106 for suggesting TuxPaint. However, the interface had a bit to steep learning curve and it had too many features I don't need in my ungodly sophisticated mega-uber-professional use ;) )
114 • GIMPShop (follow-up) (by Miq on 2008-12-13 11:19:32 GMT from Sweden)
It seems like GIMPShop has been discontinued for some two years now and doesn't work with recent GIMP releases. However, there's a similar project called GIMPPhoto:
http://www.gimphoto.com/
115 • @113 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-13 19:36:18 GMT from Canada)
IIRC, some of the MDV developers took a look at gimpshop when it first came to prominence, and discovered it was implemented as a horrible hack which made it non-conducive to being packaged. It may have changed since then and I may be remembering wrong, but I *think* that's why it's not available as a package.
116 • #107 Landor (by Verndog on 2008-12-14 06:46:06 GMT from United States)
"I've stated a couple major points before, points for me anyway that I came to live without since I use linux based OS' 24/7." My question here is why? It sounds like you have dropped Windows altogether. Unfortunately I still have to use Windows under Skype. I talk to my girlfriend everyday, and your right, my ONE webcam doesn't work right under any Linux.
The weird thing, is under Mandriva and Skype 2, the video works but the sound is screwed up. Under Ubuntu the audio works perfectly, but NO picture!
It's like their making headway on the driver side but not there yet.
So, I'm forced using Windows under Skype. Not a big deal, since I dual-boot.
On the other hand, Mandriva and OO3 works flawless for my needs. I can hardly believe the speed in which OO3 starts up. I have some rather complex Excel type formulas, and OO doesn't miss a beat. It didn't use to work that way, but that application has come along way. In my opinion. I just today received another OO3 update.
117 • @116 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-14 08:42:14 GMT from Canada)
The OO.o update is 3.0 final - 2009 shipped with a late RC.
For the audio in Skype - what's wrong with it, exactly? Have you tried running Skype through pasuspender, or disabling PulseAudio (you can do that in draksound)?
118 • Linux/Windows (by Todd R. on 2008-12-14 12:33:20 GMT from United States)
Windows is better. But Linux has a lot to offer those of us who like to be *involved* in the process of its development. Yes, Microsoft does send out copies of its developing changes for testing, as do the various Linux distros, but the hands-on approach of some Linux distros makes it unique.
Windows is better overall for *work,* the day to day reliability factor.
One of the brightest points about what's happening in Linux, to me, and also a bit telling, is that KDE, the most "Windows-like" desktop environment in the Linux/BSD, etc world, is the least reliable. Maybe that should be seen as a sort of "clue from on-high." :^) Just be Linux..
119 • @ 103 GIMP/Photoshop (by Anonymous on 2008-12-14 14:19:53 GMT from United States)
And for professionals in graphical design at least, Windows can't be done away with yet.
I disagree, you can move to Mac if you need Photoshop as it is a Mac program that was ported to Windows, or you can realize that Adobe hasn't developed PS much beyond jiggering the menu's since CS1 and find a native replacement like Photogenics.
The only reason to keep MS Windows around for graphics work is the hardware support for monitor profiling and maybe certain Autodesk products.
120 • #117 draksound (by Verndog on 2008-12-14 16:58:25 GMT from United States)
I forgot about draksound. I was trying to use alsaconf ?! No wonder.
Something a miss though. I was monkeying around inside Skype's audio section and lost the sound altogether. I had to reboot to clear that up.
I have what is detected as "IntelICHxxx" and under MS it's Maxaudio or something to that effect.
The main problem is Skype under Linux. It has come a long way from version1 to version 2. But the windowing is not right. My picture should be smaller than the one I'm calling; there the same. Also when you go to double size, the picture stays the same just the border doubles! I tried to find some ini file for Skype. Nothing doing.
121 • @118 & 119 - Linux != KDE?! Windows or Mac? (by Miq on 2008-12-14 17:11:19 GMT from Sweden)
@118
"KDE, the most "Windows-like" desktop environment in the Linux/BSD, etc world, is the least reliable. Maybe that should be seen as a sort of "clue from on-high." :^) Just be Linux.."
Well, KDE3 for me was extremely reliable. KDE4 is very reliable and showing every indication of becoming the most reliable feature-rich DE/UI for Linux. And what is that enormously strange implication that KDE isn't Linux? (1) KDE is older than GNOME (if you're suggesting that GNOME is "more Linux"); (2) Linux isn't about highest simplicity or even highest stability, but it is about power, adaptability and FOSS, which would make KDE more Linux than most other DEs, or (3) do you consider "true Linux" to be the kernel with a text prompt and let's ditch all GUIs as abominations from M$?
@119
"you can move to Mac if you need Photoshop as it is a Mac program that was ported to Windows".
I don't see why moving to another proprietary OS is a solution? MacOS isn't better than Windows, in fact, windows is actually much more usable from a power user perspective. Also, Photoshop originated on Mac, that doesn't mean that it is still better on Mac. In fact, the overly minimalistic Mac UI is limiting to the extent that Photoshop is much more productive under Windows than Mac.
"The only reason to keep MS Windows around for graphics work is the hardware support for monitor profiling and maybe certain Autodesk products.".
Yes, that is, for professional use. This does not mean make a shiny picture for a web page. Again, you seem to think that GIMP (or do you have another suggestion? I'd be very interested) is the equal of Photoshop. It isn't. By far. Ask any professional.
122 • @ 121 re: 119 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-14 19:17:54 GMT from United States)
MacOS isn't better than Windows, in fact, windows is actually much more usable from a power user perspective. Also, Photoshop originated on Mac, that doesn't mean that it is still better on Mac. In fact, the overly minimalistic Mac UI is limiting to the extent that Photoshop is much more productive under Windows than Mac.
You are entitled to your opinion but I think you'll find that your productivity argument is subjective as someone will be more productive when they are comfortable with the UI. The App is capable of the same results on both platforms :)
Again, you seem to think that GIMP (or do you have another suggestion? I'd be very interested) is the equal of Photoshop. It isn't. By far. Ask any professional
I never said GIMP is equal to Photoshop, infact in 119 I suggested a high quality Linux Native proprietary image editor, google for Photogenics HDR.
If you bother talking to anyone that has upgraded to CS4 they'll tell you the changes to Photoshop beyond CS2 are for the most part cosmetic with the few "new" features being better served by non-adobe programs (namely the 3d painting on objects) and unless you have a Quadro 4xxx or higher there is no compelling reason to upgrade to CS4.
123 • Gimp / GimpPhoto - printing! (by DeniZen on 2008-12-14 22:26:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
Miq - Thanks for the heads up re GimpPhoto.
Will check it out.
In fact, I'm going to re-evaluate Photo editing / workflow tool options under Linux distribution(s). Perhaps its been a year or two sisnce I last did - so who knows. Maybe i can edge a little further towards using Linux 100% of the time.
I'm still l going to have to think about native print drivers though. (I'll leave calibration out of it for now ;)
Has anybody tried TurboPrint? - I see they issued a new release.
Any thoughts / experiences on this forum regards recent Photo Printers with TurboPrint? (paying for an element of my Linux set-up makes me shudder, but .. its relatively peanuts - and .. if it works .. ;) )
124 • RE: # 123 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2008-12-15 01:30:44 GMT from Italy)
"Has anybody tried TurboPrint? - I see they issued a new release"
I used to have an Epson, which was utter rubbish. It had open source drivers, but with very few features. So I had to use TurboPrint.
Now I am the happy owner of a HP All In One.
It is a much better printer overall and has great drivers for all main operating systems (Linux, Windows, OS X).
125 • IMAGICOS (by lexon on 2008-12-15 04:15:31 GMT from United States)
imagicos was pretty much run out of the Freespire forums and Ubuntu forums. They seem to have no idea on how to run a business.
Number of Comments: 125
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