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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Klikit-Linux (by Dr.Saleem Khan on 2008-09-29 10:12:19 GMT from Pakistan)
It is indeed a great news that Klikit-Linux has been added to the distrowatch database.
Chris of Klikit-Linux is a medical colleague to me he is doing a real great job with this distribution.
Many like me are waiting for his next major release which is just around the corner I hope.
Cheers :)
2 • Gentoo (by Travis Beatty on 2008-09-29 10:16:04 GMT from United States)
Well, thank you for saying you will add them to the package manager list. If you need any more commands from them feel free to email me [note: I'm the anonymous from last time :p].
Also, thanks for the little writeup on how we haven't kerploded yet, I do really wish Arch fanboys would stop badgering about it. [And for those Arch fanboys, it is a fine distribution, however I find Gentoo to be more customizable. I do use Arch on my laptop, however. It is a very nice distribution; my second or third choice actually].
And, +1 for the weekly updated minimalist CDs, I think that's the way to go. Failing with trying to meet ${YEAR}.1 doesn't look very good, and it'd be a lot easier with a new minimalist CD [even though I don't use either. I end up just pulling the sources with sysrecuecd].
3 • Thanks for Distrowatch weekly and some observations (by Mark South on 2008-09-29 10:21:45 GMT from Switzerland)
Thanks Ladislav, for Distrowatch Weekly. Always a fun read.
The package management cheat sheet is coming along nicely. For the impressively quick and simple manager used by SliTaz, take a look at this page:
http://www.slitaz.org/en/doc/manuals/tazpkg.en.html
A little snippet of news that you may not have noticed is that Slackware recently changed its logo, leading to an outcry from its traditional users on the Usenet group alt.os.linux.slackware. Patrick Volkerding has changed the logo back to the old one on the slackware.com page, but there appears to be an editing war going on over the logo on the english Wikipedia page for the distro.
Oh, and I can summarise approximately 15% of the comments that will appear this week in a little snippet:
for(ever):
"Gentoo is dead!"
"No it isn't!!"
"Yes it IS!!"
"Isn't!!!!!!"
:-)
4 • Yum correction (by Pumpino on 2008-09-29 10:43:34 GMT from Australia)
For yum, "Install new software from package file" should read "yum localinstall pkg" if the package is on the HDD.
5 • package management cheatsheet (by Athas on 2008-09-29 11:04:58 GMT from Brazil)
Slapt-get is independent of Vector or any other distribution, is designed to be used with Slackware... The best is saying it's used by several projects like GoblinX, which has its own repository of packages built to work with Slapt-get.
6 • pisi (by bob on 2008-09-29 11:10:17 GMT from United States)
I am not a pisi user but I doubt the command for "Install new software from package file" is "pisi remove pkg".
7 • "awfully short stick"? (by Omari on 2008-09-29 11:16:08 GMT from United States)
"Just because one popular desktop manager isn't in the tree, does that mean that the collective work of every other developer is worthless? That's an awfully short stick to measure by."
No, it doesn't mean the collective work of every other developer is useless. However, there is no doubt that a major distribution is in considerable disarray if the current version of one of the premier desktop environments for Linux is not even in the main repository, at all. It's not an "awfully short stick" to expect a current KDE. This post illustrates one of the biggest problems with Gentoo, which is that many of the few devs that are left do not listen to legitimate criticism.
8 • Correction & Observations (by dooooo on 2008-09-29 11:54:07 GMT from Jordan)
Search by package name (apt) :
apt-cache search -n pkg
the '-n' argument is missing .
------------------------------------
As I mentioned last week :
1. 'dpkg -S' only works with installed packages .
To search for a file in the repos , you need 'apt-file search' .
2. 'apt-get dist-upgrade' handles upgrades better than 'apt-get upgrade' .
It is preferable in non-stable releases .
It doesn't perform upgrades from one release to another .
From the apt-get man page :
"dist-upgrade
dist-upgrade in addition to performing the function of upgrade, also intelligently handles changing dependencies with new versions of packages; apt-get has a "smart" conflict resolution system, and it will attempt to upgrade the most important packages at the expense of less important ones if necessary. The /etc/apt/sources.list file contains a list of locations from which to retrieve desired package files. See also apt_preferences(5) for a mechanism for overriding the general settings for individual packages."
9 • New website needed... (by Ultra on 2008-09-29 12:07:05 GMT from Canada)
I can see it coming, there's so many Linux distros, and a growing number of package management tools...
PackageManagerWatch.com will be forked from DistroWatch.com pretty soon.
:-)
10 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 12:15:39 GMT from Canada)
question - why for example dont more distributions work together ?
For example , Mint has a great gnome based ubuntu releases and klikit has a great kde release - why not collaborate and adopt klikit as the kde version of gnome? They both seem to want to achieve similar goals.
more ideas could be shared and more people working on releases , gotta to be a good idea surely?
(Of course it wont happen because big old egos wont allow these things)
11 • an appeal (by shafi on 2008-09-29 12:24:18 GMT from United States)
instead of bringing up new distros every week.... developers please help with the existing projects.
12 • Lunar Linux package management (by DG on 2008-09-29 12:43:33 GMT from Netherlands)
In the Feature Story you wrote: Add the principal source-based package management tools, including Gentoo portage and Source Mage/Lunar sorcery
Just a minor point: the Source Mage package manager may be called sorcery, but the Lunar package manager is called lunar[*], just to confuse things. So there's Lunar the distro, lunar the package management system, and lunar the command within the package management system.
[*] There's also a leading edge version of the lunar package management system where ideas are prototyped called, well, theedge!
13 • @10 (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 12:47:34 GMT from Canada)
Klikit has actually been around for quite some time. At first it was based on Debian but now it is based on Ubuntu. I think it may have been around since before Mint.
Egos have nothing to do with it, visions do. Klikit doesn't include the proprietary codecs and such like Mint does but it includes an easy way to install them.
Both projects have their merits. Anything can happen but it has nothign to do with egos as both groups are great if you get to know them.
For KDE based Ubuntu's I recommend Klikit and for Gnome based Ubuntu's I recommend Mint.
I like them both.
14 • Missing package manager options (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 12:55:18 GMT from South Africa)
It would be nice to have the basic tools as well (rpm and dpkg), with their relevant options listed
Also, you are missing the command to list files installed by a package (like rpm -ql packagename)
15 • Linux package management cheatsheet, part 2 (by Carlo Verre on 2008-09-29 12:58:43 GMT from Italy)
apropos "Add alternative package management tools, such as aptitude alongside apt-get":
PLEASE ADD SYNAPTIC, IT'S THE BEST!
ps: many many thanks for all your work!
16 • @11 (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 12:59:03 GMT from Canada)
You obviously have never been behind the scenes.
I have never received even a single response form the Ubuntu camp about anything I have asked about and my project has been recommended by users to be included in Ubuntu.
You can't just jump in and start working with them. In a perfect world it might be but the real world doesn't work that way. It is next to impossible to become part of the "big" linux teams.
Linus released his kernel to be shared and modified by anyone which is why it is released under the gpl. The rest of the linux apps are the same.
The whole point is to use it as you want to and certain folks have decided to share back what they have created for themselves so that others with similar likes and dislikes can enjoy it as well.
So lets stop saying "join another group" cause that very rarely happens and it isn't because folks haven't tried but rather due to the fact that the main groups don't welcome newcomers that openly and rightfully so.
I've had folks offer to join my project(which is just an app for Ubuntu and not a distribution if you are wondering) but have offered nothing up. I am not going to change my project to suit every single need out there. It is my app and it serves me well. I just decided to share it with others but that doesn't mean I will allow anyone in to change it as they please. Anyone can fork it if they like or develop it along with me but my project is being created the way I want to see it. After all, I'm the one that has spemnt all the hours creating it and testing it.
17 • Slackware pkgtools correction (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 13:04:36 GMT from Brazil)
For updating a package in Slackware (pkgtools):
upgradepkg pkg
and not:
installpkg pkg
Am I right?
18 • Aptitude in favor of apt-get? (by jimcooncat on 2008-09-29 13:08:05 GMT from United States)
Isn't aptitude now favored by Debian devs over apt-get? I believe I saw that *somewhere*, but I disremember.
19 • distributions... (by Jérôme on 2008-09-29 13:39:42 GMT from France)
@15
When linux fans will learn to say "the one I prefer " instead of "it's the best", a big step will be done...
Too much linux distributions for linux credibility !!! It' impossible to avoid them but what are the requirements for such distro to be added in DW database : christian edistion and muslim edition, for example (old discussion, I know). Are they real distros , in what ?
Perhaps is ti possible to find requirements about kernel customisation or specific tools...
P.S. @ Adam what about ekiga 3 in mandriva 2009 ???
20 • conflict with aptitude ??? (by smartjak on 2008-09-29 13:44:33 GMT from United States)
I use apt-get all the time. But somewhere I read that if one starts out using apt-get, switching over to aptitude will cause problems. Is this so?
21 • Solaris/openSolaris (by Jim Henry on 2008-09-29 13:47:57 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, how about some package management cheatsheet info for Solaris/openSolaris? Any chance at all for QNX Neutrino?
22 • Package Management (by william on 2008-09-29 14:23:45 GMT from United States)
I have been experimenting with upkg from the paldo distro. It has some nice features including the ability to build install software from binaries or source.
http://www.paldo.org/wiki/PackageManagement
23 • RE:19, Under the GPL (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-09-29 14:26:19 GMT from United States)
The credibility of linux is more or less damaged by poor made distributions. When linux was released under the GPL that made it impossible to avoid all the poor made, copycat, and useless forks of linux distros. I don't really see any way that situation can improve. Now everybody has a right to screw things up.
24 • RE:20 apptitude / apt-get (by Rock Bama McCane on 2008-09-29 14:37:00 GMT from United States)
If apt-get works for you then use it. If for some extraordinary reason you must use aptitude then do it. I would advise you not look to create system issues if you currently don't have any. I've used both apptitude and apt-get with problems. Your unique config will determine if apt-get or apptitude will experience issues. But if you are unsure about either, just use the Synaptic GUI approach, it's easier and will help with most dependency issues.
'Please Vote this year"
25 • DistroWatch = awesome (by Brian on 2008-09-29 14:53:54 GMT from United States)
I love DistroWatch, you guys really help keep me up-to-date on everything distribution-related. I really appreciate it!
26 • OpenRC (by Aaron on 2008-09-29 14:57:20 GMT from Canada)
One of the things that amuses me amongst all the criticism of Gentoo is how all the other distros (Ubuntu & Fedora recently) are chasing faster startup times and modifications to the rc system, but Gentoo has started pushing out OpenRC[1] to ~arch in recent months with Impressive results[2]. Yep, dead distro, no innovation going on here...
[1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/openrc-migration.xml
[2] http://jolexa.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/gentoo-improve-boot-time/
27 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 15:39:55 GMT from Canada)
"as claimed in (an article??)_ last week"
Why the Interesting choice of wording - a non-informed reader might presume it was someone else
who contributed "an article" in last . weeks edition ~ Instead of L.B ?
Please - Either research fully of history - or stop the mis-leading reporting.
Gentoo never altered regular up-dated builds - in favour of adopting "releases"
Does DW rely on partially -informed "tips " vs doing *OWN* research ?
( had you done so, D. Robbins & Foundatin status would not have been promulgated -
His work & newer contributions to Gentoo would have been
known ( it was mentioned 3 issues ago)
(@ #2 - You do not use Gentoo exclusively - Your "info" is shaky)
> NOTE " there are caveats to use of Paludis -
Anyone interested in Paludis - see the Gentoo forum
Read all on forum for more information
NOTE - Pkgecore - is another alternative to Portage
Both Paludis & Pkgcore are un-official utilities, neither (yet) have
the full features of Portage
To "round -off" DW's hit-miss style:
NOTE - differences & use in Gentoo of
Catalyst
Git
Metro (un-official)
Portage vs (un-official > - Paludis or Pkgecore
http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_pkgcore_quickstart_guide
28 • @19 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-09-29 15:47:40 GMT from Canada)
Fred considers it to be too late in the cycle to have 3 in the supported repositories. However, it'll be available in /main/backports immediately upon release. It's already available in Cooker /main/testing if you're running a 2009 pre-release.
29 • RE: OpenRC (by Aaron) (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 16:06:29 GMT from Netherlands)
Too bad no Gentoo dev is working on openrc. Roy Maples left a while ago
30 • No subject (by Fast pingouin on 2008-09-29 16:14:09 GMT from Germany)
@3 : Gentoo is not dead, yeehoo ;-)
31 • Ref#15 Synaptic, Apt-get, Aptitude (by verndog on 2008-09-29 16:23:54 GMT from United States)
Synaptic is basically a GUI application, where apt-get is command line only
Aptitude vs Apt-get:
Aptitude can be command line, but I've only seen referances to using the curses method.
I have read comments on the Debian forums that Aptitude is better at not missing dependencies. I've never had problems using Apt-get, but find Aptitude confusing - maybe because I'm not use to it.
32 • Aptitude (by zaccret on 2008-09-29 16:34:11 GMT from Germany)
You can use Aptitude with command line. Actually, you almost replace apt-get/apt-cache by aptitude :
aptitude install
aptitude search
...
33 • @ # 3 (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 16:34:34 GMT from Canada)
@ # 3
Ahh, Mark South chimes in & on
(Hey M - did you notice where M.F. now donns high-heels) ?
If that "15 %" was new readers - L.B. wouldn't mind
(Besides, it beats 50% *felatius* genufluctions)
However, since you (Ahem) "mentioned" Gentoo:
NOTE Gentoo useage of Git rather than catalayst (KDE)
http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/kde.git;a=summary
34 • really who cares? (by ZodWallop on 2008-09-29 17:17:18 GMT from United States)
If someone would rather spend their time tweaking a distro and making it their own so what? Like others have mentioned there are many reasons why someone does this and besides it's their time to do.
I for one see very little being brought to the table by many of these re-mixes and see them more of a niche then anything else. Besides users and the market will weed out those that don't cut it.
35 • @ 11 (by Martin Ultima on 2008-09-29 17:18:28 GMT from United States)
> instead of bringing up new distros every week.... developers please help with the existing projects.
It's usually a little more complicated than that -- everything from technical ability to personality clashes to different goals/ideologies can get in the way. That said, once my new release is done (it's been online about a week, now that I've just heard back from OSDisc I can announce it), I'm mostly doing maintenance and support with mine, all my new development is focusing on Wolvix.
36 • RE: 20 conflict with aptitude ??? (by bilious on 2008-09-29 17:29:46 GMT from Finland)
"I use apt-get all the time. But somewhere I read that if one starts out using apt-get, switching over to aptitude will cause problems. Is this so?"
If you want to switch from another APT frontend (apt-get, synaptic) to aptitude, you should first run the following command:
# aptitude keep-all
After that, aptitude should give you no trouble. Here's the reference where I found the above information:
http://newbiedoc.berlios.de/wiki/Aptitude_-_using_together_with_Synaptic_and_Apt-get
BTW, there's also a GTK+2 GUI frontend for aptitude under development. :-)
http://www.milliways.fr/cat/summer-of-code/
37 • Linux package management cheatsheet, part 2 (by Didier Spaier on 2008-09-29 17:37:18 GMT from France)
About slackpkg: it has a search function:
# slackpkg search
Slackpkg can be used also to upgrade the whole distribution.
The usual way is to do:
# slackpkg update
# slackpkg install-new
# slackpkg upgrade-all
# slackpkg clean-system
There are others features too:
man slackpkg
38 • Bleatings (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 19:20:45 GMT from Canada)
@ # 35 & all:
Contributing - A *little* complicated ?
Has anyone *really* thought much about why a person might want to_
The spectrum runs from ad-hoc *forkers* such as Puppy
where there is no formalised development policies
To rigorous testing standards that must first be proven before
anyone is welcomed to join "team"
Examples:
http://www.darknet.org.uk/2006/02/free-prep-material-for-lpi-linux-certification-lpi-201-and-202/
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml
When Linux (which is the kernel only) first came to our attention
it was little known outside of universities
The media made mention, only as a fill-in tibit
At that time, it Req'd gathering all resources possible, roll your own
Great, the ultimate DIY project
(But how to do it, if no previous knowledege of unix or compiling tools) ?
Collaboration - other than to alleviate own gray areas of expertise,
or time alloted for needs -
Often culminates in more dedication to the dream than most realise (or are willing)
I admire & apppreciate the work of others, but hard-selling the proposition we deserve more or that Linux must_become_mainstream -
Please look again - outside of non-informed nay-sayers - it already *is*
Belated musings:
He who claims ~ "I always walk_the_straight_line"
- Clearly has now tempted "fetes", troding in the cow-pastures of life
Summarily then, a One-liner - suitable for all sides, might be
*Bahh*
39 • sidux (by Anonymous on 2008-09-29 20:57:50 GMT from United Kingdom)
sidux 2008-3 is very cool
40 • RE:34 • really who cares? (by john frey on 2008-09-29 22:59:13 GMT from Canada)
"I for one see very little being brought to the table by many of these re-mixes and see them more of a niche then anything else. Besides users and the market will weed out those that don't cut it."
Users and The Market will not weed out anything. Small distro's are not (for the most part) involved even peripherally with The Market. Nobody can stop someone from doing what they want with the code. Nor can The Market weed anything out for the same reason. No doubt some people have started a new distro in the belief they were going to get rich. They get weeded out by the plethora of free (as in beer) software, not by The Market or Users.
Griping about small and specialist distro's is like hypnotising chickens, anyone can do it and it's utterly useless.
41 • Show-stopping "low" priority Gnome bug (by Duhnonymous on 2008-09-29 23:03:05 GMT from United States)
If you're thinking of install Ubuntu next month, you might want to keep this in mind:
The latest stable version of Gnome cannot save/restore your session.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-session/+bug/249373
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=536685
42 • Distrowatch Newsletter in FF3.01 on PcLinuxOS gets Hi-Jacked twice... (by ChiJoan on 2008-09-30 00:26:11 GMT from United States)
Hello Ladislav,
I read something about this yesterday, but out of 5 open tabs only yours got sent somewhere else and I thought you should know about it. I checked and Firefox 3.02 is not available for PcLinuxOS yet, just in case that would have fixed it. Time to read your newsletter on another Distro and computer.
Thanks for the news and hard work,
ChiJoan in Reno
43 • gentoo (by me on 2008-09-30 06:54:31 GMT from Sweden)
Of course gentoo is dead. Just listen to what is going on. A project that is alive and well have a different way about it. It is just to sad. People now working with gentoo seems to be more concerned about themselves than about the the future.
44 • Palaudis... (by Landor on 2008-09-30 08:47:35 GMT from Canada)
I found the information regarding Palaudis over Portage kind of disturbing..Do you verify anything that's "possibly opinion only" Ladislav?
As stated many times here before, I don't keep my Gentoo build totally up to date with the most current software, only for security/bug fixes, and the occasional upgrade for new features that I am interested in.
That said, I do upgrade "somewhat" and basically every time I've done such, I've done an emerge --sync of course, and low and behold each time there's a new version of portage and I'm being prompted to update it before I install or update any other packages. In fact, I just thought I'd check while typing this and sure enough there was another new update to Portage waiting for me. I think that's twice now in about 7 days as well.
There seems to be two split factions in Gentoo package management, and it's quite possible you just got dragged into a long time dispute by one of the people on the Palaudis side of things.
I'd also like to point out that I've never used Palaudis. I found no reason to since Portage has never caused any woes on my end for well over a year's use. So I'm not a specific fan or hold any loyalty to either. I just use what works for me.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
45 • gentoo (by Fast pengouin on 2008-09-30 08:49:51 GMT from Germany)
Of course gentoo is not dead. Just listen to what is going on. Lot of changes are coming.
46 • few corrections for pacman (by shining on 2008-09-30 09:22:47 GMT from Germany)
Install new software from package file : pacman -U pkg , not pacman -S pkg
Search by file name : pacman --owns is wrong. it could be pacman -Q --owns or rather pacman -Qo, but this only works for searching through already installed packages.
Search by file name in all available packages is not possible with pacman itself, but is now possible with other tools like pkgfile from there :
http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=17941
47 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-09-30 13:05:36 GMT from Canada)
I was just checking over at the pclinuxos page to find out the latest news and worry that those saying it is dead are right .
There has been no news on the home page since april and the developers blog is completely empty.
Either its dead or no one can be bothered to keep this distro maintained properly - not good for free software guys
48 • PCLinuxOS alive and well (by davecs on 2008-10-01 07:08:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
We currently have a repository freeze whilst a new LiveCD iso is prepared for a test release. This information is available at the forum. The blog on the front page is a software facility that is simply not used, so I wouldn't read too much into that, and most announcements are made on the forum - we won't announce on the front page until the tried, tested and stable new release is available.
When we have a new iso ready for public release, we will move the packages it's built from to our stable repositories and existing users will be able to upgrade without re-installing.
49 • gentoo (by me on 2008-10-01 07:48:24 GMT from Sweden)
-"Lot of changes are coming".
We, former and would be again gentoo users have heard that for a long time. No happenings yet, and just a long wait for changes not to happen or being irrelevant from a user point of view. After the initial configuration it should get the job done, period. With a lot of options to choose from as a benefit. Now we are talking random news, irregular updates and delays, changes for the worst from a home user perspective (packages not in portage that should be there and others being updated when?), and with a lack of trust regarding professional use. Now, look at any other distro and draw a conclusion from that. Maybe theres a lot going on on the inside. But the user base not involved from the inside does not care, they are the ones that should live the "going ons".
50 • RE: 49 (by Landor on 2008-10-01 08:21:18 GMT from Canada)
You speak of yourself in the plural? Are you from some secret society of distraught Gentoo users that you yourself has been appointed the spokesperson for?
I had to smile over this week's news about Gentoo. They're on the right track, the track of change. Something I told people they should actually consider before opening mouth and inserting foot. But no, you, Ladislav, and others, you count internet time in Dog Years, which always amazes me. For the majority, if change isn't immediate (within days) you feel like weeks have passed, months, years, and there's no hope! The reality of the time it takes has very little meaning. I'm pretty sure I pointed out the process that they make attempts, if those attempts don't succeed they need to re-evaluate those first conclusions/ideas and come up with alternatives that they hope to work, or as in the case of manpower, who can do the job since the first person couldn't do it. That takes "time".
Now we're seeing that Gentoo is indeed alive, they're re-evaluating, trying to come up with solutions and implementing new solutions based on either previous problems or the reality of the situation. A very intelligent way to run any project and tells me they have a great team, with an amazing problem solving ablity and sensible enough to take heed of the problems and deal with them.
I am very proud that "thus far" I am quite able to say....I told you so...
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
P.S. One other thing I did notice that has bothered me for some time and I will finally point it out since someone brought up the subject of PCLOS....I find it quite odd that PCLOS has basically 0 on their front page, useless links to empty dev blog, no release since what, May 2007, and not once have you seen Ladislav even put any info out about that, let alone a fraction of what he has slammed on Gentoo and helped proliferate the notion of it being a dying project...Odd no?
51 • RE: 50 (by ladislav on 2008-10-01 08:47:38 GMT from Taiwan)
Landor, I know you disagree with my views on Gentoo, so there really is no need to repeat it every week.
I do welcome a plurality of opinions in this publication and have repeatedly offered you (or anybody else interested in it) space in DistroWatch Weekly to give your view on Gentoo. You DECLINED it. Yet, you continue typing furiously every time somebody dares to express anything other than the absolute superlative about your favourite distribution.
Yes, yes, yes, Gentoo is perfect, yes, it's managed intelligently, and yes, it is the absolute leader in Linux innovation. Now, can you please stop repeating this several times a week? And most importantly, can you stop attacking people who don't share your opinion?
52 • Elation (by Ann Nonymous on 2008-10-01 09:18:10 GMT from United States)
After switching from Puppy to Arch Linux, I'm so happy I could just about soil myself!
53 • RE:51 (by Landor on 2008-10-01 09:19:10 GMT from Canada)
Attacking People?
First off, let's deal with attacking people. Do you feel I've attacked you Ladislav? If so, maybe you should think is it you, or is your reporting. You can say the two go hand in hand, but no, they don't. Is that not what this area is here for as you stated earlier this year I believe?
Have I ever said Gentoo is perfect...You really don't like being called on what you post and you are known to be quite hot in temper and use your fingers to express that easily. But as to the perfect statement again, you are trying to deflect obviously and put me on guard, or point the finger at me. I'll challenge you as you did before to me, and this is in your own realm, to show once where I have stated that Gentoo is perfect. I have done nothing but the opposite and admitted it has flaws that are being worked on. So please lay off the drama or prove that I have done such.
If you don't like what's said in debate about the information you provide or others post here, then remove the section, or as I'm sure you've done to Dbrion and you have done to my Canadian Neighbour who just returned, ban me from posting, but remember, you're not as democratic as you propose to be and your last paragraph shows you should've read your little quip below this box :)
For your information as well, I currently only use Gentoo randomly as well, and although it's a great distribution it's far from my favourite so again your assumption is in the wrong. Why do I defend it? Someone should against the unfounded and uninformed slurs that many, including yourself, have thrown at it.
I'm currently using my own remaster of AntiX, with Fluxbox and a few KDE 4 based apps that no longer come in Meta Packages, great distro and I like what Anti himself stands for...
Oh, and this is just an opinion to keep it on topic regarding DWW, wouldn't want you to delete my post for being off-topic...I think Daniel Robbins maybe wrong..I know a number of sources where you can get information regarding Catalyst, one of them being a book I skimmed at a local bookstore on how to build Linux Live CDs, so obviously one other person (the author) found the information on Catalyst. But Daniel Robbins was oorrect that it's so hard to use Catalyst you have to be a rocket scientest basically...The original (dirty way) to remaster a distro is always the simplest if you take into account the differences for each distro, it's quite simple and quick to do.
Oh and Ladislav?
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
54 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-10-01 10:23:41 GMT from Germany)
sorry, Landor,
I love Gentoo but in this special case I have to agree with Ladislav. You are quite fast with attacking anyone who puts the slightest critics towards Gentoo. There are not only weeks but months passing without citical bugs in the STABLE tree that prevent compilation getting resolved or even attended to (still on new on the bug tracker!). This should not happen with a healthy distro and sure doesn't fit your point of "they only want to do it right".
So ... Landor..
Keep YOUR stick on the ice
55 • RE: 53 (by ladislav on 2008-10-01 10:24:27 GMT from Taiwan)
Have I ever said Gentoo is perfect.
Have I ever said that Gentoo was dying?
As for banning Dbrion and your anonymous Canadian neighbour, believe me, I really hate doing things like that. But I did get tired of the sheer amount of incomprehensible messages that kept polluting the forum week after week (just check message number 33 above and tell me who on earth could possibly understand what the author was trying to say - I certainly don't).
With you, I don't have a problem, since I find your messages readable and intelligent. I only hate the fact that you waste so much time and energy defending a distro in a little forum instead of writing up a proper article that would provide a good, alternative viewpoint on the current state of Gentoo and that would be read by several thousands of people. Do you really think that these little forum outbursts will change my opinion (or the opinions of other Gentoo critics)?
56 • Landor (by Vila on 2008-10-01 11:03:09 GMT from Netherlands)
Landor,
Get a life and stop with "keep your stick on the ice..." I'm getting tired of that!
57 • Check out SimplyMEPIS 8.0 Beta 2 (by Brian Masinick on 2008-10-01 13:38:46 GMT from United States)
I have always been very impressed with the quality of even the Beta test releases of SimplyMEPIS. Sometimes the hardware feature list has to be built up during the test builds, and that has been the case here. Beta 1 had some issues with certain Pentium M processors, leading to a conflict with the way the PAE code is handled. The test team did a great job of identifying this in Build 70, though, and an updated Build 80 has been released that addresses the issue.
I installed Build 70 (Beta 1) on a Lenovo 3000 Model Y410 laptop and it worked wonderfully well. Unfortunately it would not boot at all on a Dell Latitude D600 laptop. But the guys were right on top of it and made sure that Warren was made aware of this issue. Now it has been completely taken care of, which I verified personally last night on my D600. I now have a Beta 1 version on the Y410 that I can update and a Beta 2 version on the D600 that is up to date.
There remain a few known issues, mostly in the hardware category. There is a known issue with the way that NTFS-3G is handled, which is being addressed now. Once that is taken care of and Debian Lenny is completed, SimplyMEPIS 8 will be complete. It seems well on track to complete before year's end. Looking good already. I recommend trying it, and definitely getting it when the final release comes out. SimplyMEPIS 8 is another winner already.
58 • I agree with #39, sidux is VERY COOL! (by Brian Masinick on 2008-10-01 13:49:15 GMT from United States)
Once again sidux has come out with a cutting edge release that actually works. Between sidux, antiX, and SimplyMEPIS, I have my bases well covered - a cutting edge distro that works great (sidux), a small, flexible Live CD that also makes a great rescue CD and a fast desktop (antiX), and a simple, solid, reliable desktop (SimplyMEPIS). antiX had a new release in August and has plans for another before the end of the year. SimplyMEPIS 8 will be out before the end of the year, sooner if Lenny locks things up and releases soon, and sidux usually plans a release each quarter, but bends that, depending on what is going on in Sid. In any event, the combination of the three really completely cover my computing interests right now on the desktop.
59 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-10-01 14:29:16 GMT from Canada)
Where is this elusive Debian Lenny? They said it was supposed to be released in August, then in September and now is October. Are they going to release Lenny the Gentoo way? How about naming this release Debian Latey? It suits it better.
60 • Ultima Wolvix (by capricornus on 2008-10-01 14:58:20 GMT from Belgium)
I just tried to install Ultima (based on WOlvix, nothing more), and it just stalled at 100% while installing GRUB. No harm done, but that's all the reporting I can do. A pity, I think, because an updated Wolvix would be very welcome. In my opinion, that is.
61 • RE: 50, One in the same? (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-10-01 15:14:03 GMT from United States)
by Landor: "P.S. One other thing I did notice that has bothered me for some time and I will finally point it out since someone brought up the subject of PCLOS....I find it quite odd that PCLOS has basically 0 on their front page, useless links to empty dev blog, no release since what, May 2007, and not once have you seen Ladislav even put any info out about that, let alone a fraction of what he has slammed on Gentoo and helped proliferate the notion of it being a dying project...Odd no?"
So you are comparing Gentoo to PCLinuxOS? I know they use the same excuse for no new releases and they will also tell you that its none of your business what is going on with the project.
Isn't this subject getting a little long in the tooth?
62 • Landor and Ref#55 (by verndog on 2008-10-01 15:38:25 GMT from United States)
Landor, Actually I find myself on your side. Long ago I too was put off by your sign-off message and you have taken a lot of heat based on it. But I have never seen you defend Gentoo like so many other have.
I doubt you will ever get banned here - just my take. You bring intelligence and food for thought.
I'm actually quite surprised that there are those that think you defend Gentoo to the death. You have a broader view of things. Thats my take anyway.
Regarding Ref#55. I thought I was going crazy and the only one that couldn't make heads or tails out of post # 33. I think that's the same guy that thinks of himself as a poet.
I would like to try Gentoo, actually. I will wait though for something positive coming from its users. DWW article and subsequent quote about Gentoo dev with that stupid comment of users "..a group of users may unitedly cry the mantra __WHINE__ Gentoo is dying"was just dumb. Never call any user a whiner. Then the end of the quote says it all - "...even should the distribution collapse in on itself and completely go away..." What the hell! Why make a statement like that! Uers, users, users. That's really ALL you have going for you. You don't have to do what their asking,but at least acknowledge their input.
63 • @ 60 (by Martin Ultima on 2008-10-01 17:18:40 GMT from United States)
> I just tried to install Ultima (based on WOlvix, nothing more), and it just stalled at 100% while installing GRUB. No harm done, but that's all the reporting I can do. A pity, I think, because an updated Wolvix would be very welcome. In my opinion, that is.
Are there still GRUB issues? I thought I had those fixed -- oh well. There are several workarounds though, if you're willing to try --
1) Reboot with 'linux root=/dev/sda1' (replace sda1 with your install partition)
2) When it starts up, log in and open a terminal
3) Run 'sudo su', then 'grub-install /dev/sda' (replace sda with your hard disk)
If this doesn't work, check the Ultima forums -- http://www.ultimalinux.com/forum/ -- and we'll try to get it up and running (registration is *not* required). Meanwhile I apologize for any inconvenience the GRUB problems may have caused.
Just to clarify: Ultima is not based on Wolvix, it's an independent project, but we do swap code sometimes (we borrowed their installer, and I'm helping with a few things like KDE and OpenOffice.org packages). I'm not entirely up-to-date with Wolvix development, it's been a couple weeks, but their 2.0.0 is getting there (I have a snapshot running on my system) and Wolven's hoping to get an alpha out soon.
64 • Ultimate GRUB (by capricornus on 2008-10-01 18:00:19 GMT from Belgium)
martin ultima
I just solved the problem with XUbuntu, thank you. Hanging at a 100% install resulting in nothing is no thing. Thanks to XUbuntu, I write this to you with ... ultima. Yes. Trying to install VLC, nowhere to be found in the reps, but ala, that's life.
65 • linux xp (by Lennart Persson on 2008-10-01 18:09:08 GMT from Denmark)
when will there be a new release
66 • re 65 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-01 18:15:25 GMT from Canada)
Why would you want to use Linux XP? Why not Linux Vista?
67 • @ 64 (by Martin Ultima on 2008-10-01 18:26:12 GMT from United States)
> martin ultima
> I just solved the problem with XUbuntu, thank you. Hanging at a 100% install resulting in nothing is no thing. Thanks to XUbuntu, I write this to you with ... ultima. Yes. Trying to install VLC, nowhere to be found in the reps, but ala, that's life.
You have it working? Excellent!
I don't currently ship VLC in the official repository; there's a lot of dependencies, and I personally have no use for it. That said, the default configuration has several third-party repos available (but disabled by default) -- I believe both LinuxPackages.net and Wolvix offer VLC -- it might be worth checking there. In Gslapt, just go to Edit -> Preferences -> Sources and you can get to them.
68 • RE: 55 (by Landor on 2008-10-01 19:00:27 GMT from Canada)
You think I atttack, vehemently on a topic, how many times have you seen me post each week in say the last 2 or 3 months even. I "usually" point out an error now and leave it at that. It's far from fanatical nor do I usually make it personal. I did of course this week...The whole "we" thing just was too much in my opinion no to..lol But if you notice I've chosen not to further the exchange with him/her as I feel the man has little of use to substantiate his claims, therefore why debate or exchange with a "Because I said so" person.
First I commented about Paludis...Maybe that was considered an attack, but yet again very little information was provided to substantiate the claims of what was said in the article/snippet from the user. Claims that from "my personal experience" were untrue. Also we get this one line:
"I have a strong feeling that they will win over a large number of converts", that's fine and that's their opinion, but in "a sense" that leaves the reader with the feeling that Paludis is a new project that everyone should be watching to replace Portage, though it's not old, it couln't be considered very new either...It's coming up on 3 years old in Jan 2009. Just in my opinion only, a very leading bit of information, withholding the substance to verify it's accuracy.
We see people talking about certain packages in the tree, security fixes, bug fixes, do we see anything to provide proof of that? Not once since I've been watching thus far Ladislav. That in itself makes them suspect and when something is suspect that denounces something else, it should be spoken against. In the media world where milions of dollars are tossed around, such individuals would either not comment, or make sure they had the accurate and verifiable proof to back it up. Just to be clear here, I am talking about people who comment here.
You might get your review on a part of Gentoo, well, Gentoo related, if someone doesn't beat me to it...I'm gonna look at Metro and see just how well it compares to Catalyst..Gentoo related as I said. I might even speak to the releng team after I check out Metro and find out their thoughts on it, and the current host of changes in the works for Gentoo.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
69 • Time to Tattle (by Anonymous on 2008-10-01 20:54:06 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, while you were on vacation this Landor character ran amuck amost daily with people trying to vent their opinions. I am sure that many came away with the impression that this was his forum and he was the moderator. If you don't believe me check the postings for that time period.
I'm sure this appears to be piling on, but, Geeze come on, can you at least put a leash on him?
Thanks for at least considering it, I've not posted for weeks in fear of generating more ridicule from him. My tendency is to flame back, so I just stop, because it was drawing in more (innocent) bystanders because of his rabid flaming.
70 • RE 69 (by Landor on 2008-10-01 21:18:46 GMT from Canada)
Rabid, ran amuck? Put a leash on? Fear of generating ridicule? Yet your tendency is to flame back?
Those are quite expressive verbs, honestly. Since you are "anonymous" can you give me the post numbers in which my replies were ridiculing "you"? Just the fact that you post as anonymous is suspect in my personal opinion. You talk about flaming back, that in itself tells me you like to fight, or take a fight to a person, you "flame" them. I'd like to know how I flamed you, but as you state I am rabid but by your own post here, you tend to flame people in return.
Pot...Kettle?
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
71 • Re #70 (by Jan Janson on 2008-10-01 23:11:32 GMT from Netherlands)
Why did you have to rise to #69's bait and prove his point for him?
Sometimes you raise worthwhile points. #70 was not one of them, even if valid.
Don't feed the trolls.
72 • RE: 62 (by Landor on 2008-10-01 23:51:32 from Canada)
I don't know about intelligence, I'll leave that up to others like yourself, I just think my difference is, and no offense to others, is what I like to look at things a lot less linear and a lot more broader, for my perspective. It would be a terrible world to live in if all we ever did was take a negative view instead of trying to find positives. :)
Oh, and 33...It's funny, but I did understand what he saying, maybe I'm the only one, but in truth I did.
On that note I always understood Dbrion and actually considered him super-intelligent and though he may, or may not have intended to post here in that broken manner, if you were able to understand what he posted you could see sheer intelligence and even sometimes a very adept sense of humour shine through. His use of UBU for Ubuntu made me smile to no end each time I read it due to the play King UBU....He was well read, supremely intelligent and quite helpful with others here.
Anyway, thank you for your comment, quite appreciated...
Oh, one last thing, I have pointed it out before, how I end each post I have done for years and years, in blogs, e-mails, etc... It's meant as a gesture that regardless of the topic, I hope all keep livin', playin', enjoyin', and not let anything pass them by, etc.. A bit more than that, but that's the basics
Kepp your stick on the ice...
Landor
73 • Dreamlinux, most popular distro that's never used? (by Sertse on 2008-10-01 23:55:00 GMT from Australia)
It's funny how to stays up there so high, yet I've never seen a real user of it around, nor any talk about it.
74 • RE: 72 (by ladislav on 2008-10-02 00:41:56 GMT from Taiwan)
Dbrion might be a superhuman whose intelligence would easily dwarf Einstein's, but it means nothing if he cannot put together two coherent sentences in a row. Not to mention his penchant for wanting to attack and ridicule anybody who happened to have a different opinion than himself!
As for your anonymous Canadian neighbour - see his post 27 above, where he even suggests that it was I who wrote the "Gentoo Decline" blog post that I quoted from in last week's DWW. Is this also "super intelligence" or is it just a "very adapt sense of humour"?
I have no problem if people disagree with my opinions; in fact, I welcome it, as I welcome any corrections. As an example, I quite liked Aaron's post at number 26 above, where he gave an example of a Gentoo innovation, which I wasn't aware of. He disagrees with me, yes, but he gives a concrete example why I am wrong saying that Gentoo doesn't innovate. What a sharp contrast to some of those "super-intelligent" humans who disagree by incoherent mocking and ridiculing! That adds nothing to the discussion, except turn away the readers!
75 • RE: 74 (by Landor on 2008-10-02 04:29:56 GMT from Canada)
I was only stating an opinion on Dbrion's intelligence and humour is all. I always made it obvious I liked the man. When we got into the technical you could always count on him to truly shine with his raw understanding of Linux and OS' in general, but far more :)
On another note, and yes, I understand your desire to not see the funny side of some things that could put this site in a bad light, but if you tell me you didn't even smile, or can't now, or I would hope chuckle, after writing/reading the below two lines I personally believe you take all far too seriously as some of the more colourful commentors here do :):
"Dbrion might be a superhuman whose intelligence would easily dwarf Einstein's, but it means nothing if he cannot put together two coherent sentences in a row"
"What a sharp contrast to some of those "super-intelligent" humans who disagree by incoherent mocking and ridiculing"
Now smile Ladislav, I know you can, those two lines warrant a chuckle for the content therein :)
My son was here reading the site and he said, "Dad, Ladislav replied to your post to someone else and it's funny, serious but funny" I had to agree with him :)
On another note: Was anyone aware (I just found it out) That Barry Kauler (sp?) based, either fully, or in part, the last version of Puppy (or one of the last) on T2? I found that surprising, I don't know why, just did. The man sure could find many new ways to surprise the community with his changes or additions/innovations "for puppy".
Speaking of T2, I mentioned to my son that it may very well be the next project we sink our teeth into, either that or ROCK, in which he groaned..lol Here I thought it was hard to teach an old dog new tricks, not the young pup :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
76 • Landor/Ladislav (by Vila on 2008-10-02 05:44:57 GMT from Netherlands)
Can we plase stop with dis debat now.... Why don't you discus this in a Private mail. Newcomers to the Linux world don't want to read this bull.... I'm sorry for my strong language.
77 • linux xp (by Lennart Persson on 2008-10-02 11:18:38 GMT from Denmark)
why vista ??? and where to fins it
78 • re 77 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-02 12:43:55 GMT from Canada)
Linux Vista does not exist. That was a joke. As a matter of fact Linux XP is a joke too. A bad one, but still a joke. Do yourself a favor and avoid anything that contains "XP" "Windows", "Microsoft", "Redmond"and "Vista" in the name. You've got plenty of good newbie friendly distributions out there: Mandriva, Ubuntu, Mint, PCLinuxOS etc.
79 • Klikit just works (by billhedrick on 2008-10-02 15:09:04 GMT from United States)
I have been using Klikit for almost 2 years now, came there from Freespire. Considering that this is basically a one man distro, Chris Medico along with some able assistants, it's an amazing one. It's a full featured KDE distro that is easily customized. I am eagerly awaiting new developments as they come one line. If this is an "informal" distro, dang!
80 • re 78 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-02 18:22:35 GMT from Canada)
I agree that he would be doing himself a disservice to use a "copy" of Windows. He'd be far better served by the real thing (rather than serving your personal desires in avoiding it).
@77 - use what suits your own needs, but don't go looking here for a free MS Windows clone, because you're not going to find it in Linux. Linux is its own beast.
As to Dream Linux. I downloaded it last week. Does make for a fair resemblance to OSX, and I rather liked the minimalist feel to it with its core set of apps and system controls nicely set up (XFCE desktop anyway).
Had some serious issues upon doing updates (over 700MB worth). Ran into menu weirdness where the launcher bar at the bottom became useless. Couldn't even invoke a terminal without going to one of the virtual terminal sessions, nor synaptic, nor anything else on it.
As I was setting this up for a completely new computer user, I ended up reinstalling it and not doing the updates, being at the end of my time for this charity project. Dream being the 4th (newb-friendly) distro I had tried to load on this particular set of used PCs, and the first one that completed installation.
They very much need to run a new ISO. It's frustrating to sit through a couple hours worth of installation and updating only to have a broken system afterwards. Much better would it be to break sooner, like the other 3, rather than wasting my time.
Such is life.
Yes, I *am* a true pessimist
I find that being such means that I am pleasantly surprised far more often than I am crushingly disappointed.
81 • Vote Early - Vote Often (by Anonymous on 2008-10-03 03:51:49 GMT from United States)
Frankly I'm surprised that there has been no mention of SGI's relicensing of their contributions to Mesa...
82 • @ 73 Dreamlinux (by capricornus on 2008-10-03 06:26:55 GMT from Netherlands)
The name makes one thirsty, makes one download it and try it. I heve the feeling I have seen it already, but where? It does no spectacular things, and the way Mint makes normal things even simpler stick as an andvantage for the latter. In my eyes, it does...
83 • review page (by sid on 2008-10-03 08:46:57 GMT from Kenya)
the review and article page is kind of outdated please update it
thaNX
84 • Using latest Xubuntu (by Duhnonymous on 2008-10-03 09:43:25 GMT from United States)
Xubuntu 8.10 beta works great. A few (Gnome-related) problems aside, I've had no trouble at all.
85 • Kubuntu 8.10 (by drizake on 2008-10-03 13:25:46 GMT from United States)
This page on Kubuntu actually makes me want to try KDE4 for the first time. I think I'll be downloading the Ubuntu 8.10 beta and adding KDE and XFCE...
86 • @85 (by drizake on 2008-10-03 13:26:12 GMT from United States)
This page. Sorry...
https://wiki.kubuntu.org/IntrepidIbex/Beta/Kubuntu
87 • RE: 78, There is a LInux XP (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-10-03 18:06:36 GMT from United States)
Sorry to say that there is a distro called Linux XP. I believe its listed at #45 on DW hit list. You have to accept a EULA and also it is a pay to use distro.
88 • Links to older version in openSUSE 11.1 beta 2 announcement! (by tobaj on 2008-10-03 19:21:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hello folks,
There are links for download openSUSE 11.1 beta 1 instead of 11.1 BETA 2 in last announcement. I didn't pay attention and downloaded ISO. I realized when it finished and I had to get off from work where I can use fast Internet. Now I have to wait till Monday :-(
89 • Lenny (by Momo on 2008-10-04 13:48:32 GMT from Canada)
I am so looking forward to Lenny being released, I can hardly wait! :-)
90 • Lenny (by Alan UK on 2008-10-04 14:24:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
@ 89
Yeah me too. But at this rate you'll find it under the Xmas tree...Xmas 2008 hopefully.
91 • @90 (by Eric Chapman on 2008-10-04 14:51:00 GMT from United Kingdom)
You don't have to wait for Lenny. Install it now. In common with thousands of others, I've been using it for months.
92 • Lenny (by Anonymous on 2008-10-04 17:51:08 GMT from Germany)
Before Debian can release Lenny, there should be at least one release candidate of the installer. Also the release-critical bugs count needs to go down.
http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/
But I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes, since I'm already writing this message from Lenny, and I can tell that Lenny will be a great Debian release. :-)
93 • BSD users (by Verndog on 2008-10-05 02:26:47 GMT from United States)
I haven't heard much of anything out of BSD users here at DWW comments section.
I have been toying with the idea of installing either FreeBSD or PC-BSD. What I like to hear is are there any converts from Linux to BSD.
I've check a few forums. BSD users are VERY vocal regarding there OS. They don't like Linux much. One guy has Linux as saying if "386BSD" was around at the time, he would never have made Linux. Don't know how truthfull that statement is
94 • @ 93 (by Martin Ultima on 2008-10-05 03:20:14 GMT from United States)
> I've check a few forums. BSD users are VERY vocal regarding there OS. They don't like Linux much. One guy has Linux as saying if "386BSD" was around at the time, he would never have made Linux. Don't know how truthfull that statement is
First of all, it's bad to make generalizations (even though they're probably true ;-) I'd have to see the actual quote, but I think Linus has said similar things before, so it's not completely implausible.
> I have been toying with the idea of installing either FreeBSD or PC-BSD. What I like to hear is are there any converts from Linux to BSD.
I've been running OpenBSD on some of my systems, so I wouldn't be much help with FreeBSD/PC-BSD specifics, but if you're comfortable with the Linux command line, it's not that drastic a change. I rather like OpenBSD's package manager, compared with what Linux offers; it has the simplicity of Slackware's pkgtools with the networking and dependency bits of apt (although that's a bad characterization; it makes it sound like the indispensible but eternally kludgy mess that is slapt-get).
The BSD systems are perhaps "tighter," since both kernel and userspace apps are developed by the same project. The documentation on BSD is considerably higher quality and more consistent: Everything's in the man pages (no bullshit like GNU and their 'info' system), and with a fresh install it only took me a few minutes to discover how to get DHCP working (my network card wasn't auto-configured). The first time I used Slackware it was several months before I happened to discover dhcpcd.
All that said, I tend to prefer OpenBSD more for server use; I continue to use (and develop) Linux for my desktop systems. A lot of it's the ideology: Many Linux projects, including my own, are all about pre-configured, "set-and-forget" environments, whereas BSD you should expect a lot of tweaking and manual configuration. There's also the matter of hardware support, all the way from big things like wireless and video drivers to small things like ACPI fan control. (On my Celeron server, BSD doesn't support reducing the fan speed, so the machine runs really loud.) Of course, FreeBSD and OpenBSD are probably rather different systems, and I will be the first to admit I'm hardly an expert on any of the Berkeley systems...
95 • RE: 93 (by Landor on 2008-10-05 04:21:25 GMT from Canada)
Another differing are you will see and probably have noticed is the partitioning scheme. It has made more than a few who are somewhat confident in Linux scratch their head.
The learning curve might be steep, and from what I know of BSD of old and new, and having ran Gentoo for some time, they are possibly the closest in nature to anything else Linux has to offer. I won't say that for you to go over you should try Gentoo first, or possibly even T2, which I've looked at and is also someone similar to a BSD system. What I would say is, if you're confident enough to attempt either of those two, then you shouldn't have very many problems with FreeBSD or PC-BSD (probably the latter the least of them, due to it being a desktop build of course).
Martin was also correct in hardware, you might find some very troublesome bumps depending on your system's hardware, and they may even turn into some pretty deep holes you "might not" climb out of.
I honestly think, as I should have said with your comments with Gentoo before, if you feel you can do it, the only thing you will lose is time, and you'll gain a whole lot in knowledge and experience, that will indeed carry over to Linux as well. For me that's always been a beneficial trade-off :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
96 • More on BSD vs Linux (by Verndog on 2008-10-05 06:38:21 GMT from United States)
Here's the exact quote from Linus Torvalds"
""If 386BSD had been available when I started on Linux, Linux would probably never had happened."
And here is the 1993 link article that he said it in:
http://gondwanaland.com/meta/history/interview.html
Look for that heading "Meta: What is your opinion of 386BSD?"
You will see that quote numinous times on BSD'ers avatars.
Thanks for the replies guys. I just rarely(never) here any BSD comments here at DWW and I know DW supports there efforts. Getting a unbias opinion from any BDS advocates may prove difficult. I have read several BSD forums.
Here is one very lengthy, albeit well stated case of, BSD vs Linux that I've read. It may be worth the read for any *NIX followers:
http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php
97 • RE: 93 -- BSD users (by nix-head on 2008-10-05 11:40:05 GMT from Germany)
"They don't like Linux much."
They probably don't like GNU much either. A Unix system traditionally consists of a kernel space and a user space. In GNU/Linux, GNU provides the user space part while Linux provides the kernel space. In contrast, BSD makes both their own kernel and user space. And then there are lots of third party applications that have been "ported" to the BSD system from outside the BSD project, and are made available to BSD users via a separate "ports" system. But only the base operating system, that consists of the components of the traditional Unix system and that is made almost entirely by the BSD developers, is actually considered the BSD system.
BSD users see GNU/Linux as BSD's competitor -- which it, of course, is. But perhaps even more serious cause of disturbance and controversy is that the software in both GNU and Linux is typically licensed under the GPL distribution license while BSD has a tad more permissive license. The main difference between the licenses is that when you modify BSD-licensed software, you can publish your modifications under a different license. But when you modify GPL-licensed software, you must publish the modifications also under the GPL. BSD developers don't like to publish their code under GPL, and so they avoid including GPL-licensed software in the BSD system.
In addition to GNU/Linux and BSD, there's also a kind of hybrid: Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, that has GNU user space and FreeBSD kernel. The Debian installer hasn't yet been integrated to GNU/kFreeBSD. Instead, they use a hacked version of the FreeBSD installer. Debian GNU/kFreeBSD uses apt-get for package management and it currently supports about 90% of all the packages in Debian. AFAIK, there are five Debian developers actively working on GNU/kFreeBSD, and it has made pretty good progress in recent years.
98 • @ 96, 97 (by Martin Ultima on 2008-10-05 14:58:32 GMT from United States)
That looks like a legit Linus quote (based on what little I know about the man).
The licensing issue does tend to be rather contentious. I like how OpenBSD satirizes that in their release artwork. I'm kind of in a weird place on that; as much as I like the GNU project's software -- I don't know anything else that quite matches some of its functionality -- I find it much easier to side with de Raadt than Stallman as far as the philosophical bits go. That's really what you have to remember: Both sides have good points, but after all the pointless arguments, it's often hard to take either seriously.
99 • Ref#97 (by Verndog on 2008-10-05 14:59:20 GMT from United States)
Thanks for your information. I think Martin Ultima was making a similar statement regarding BSD's kernel containing the "whole ball of wax" inside the kernel. Like a monolithic kernel.
There was also an attempt at Gentoo/*BSD. No updates for a couple of years though.
That's an interesting approach, having a hybrid of debian and BSD.
I have a DVD disk of FreeBSD version 6. I know its old but I'm going to try it out on another PC.
100 • FreeBSD Installation (by Verndog on 2008-10-05 23:42:50 GMT from United States)
I just successfully installed FreeBSD 6 from a Sams DVD book disk. It was too easy to install. I thought something must be wrong. All the horror stories I've heard. Just follow the instructions. Speaking of which, I remember when years ago I had an old VCR(remember those) that I bought. On the very back of the manual, as though it was written to men, there was this quote. "When all else fails read the manual". I never got around to reading that manual :) A guy thing I suppose.
Getting back on topic. Installing BSD is one thing. Learning how to use it another. Everythings different than Linux. Ex. "fdisk -l" doesn't fly. I guess it's "fdisk -s".
Well I'm off to find some beginners docs on using BSD.
Another fun week at DWW. This is Sunday for me. Another issue just around the corner.
Number of Comments: 100
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