| DistroWatch Weekly
|DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 267, 25 August 2008
Welcome to this year's 34th issue of DistroWatch Weekly! Not all user-friendly desktop operating systems are based on Linux; as demonstrated by PC-BSD, it is entirely feasible to turn a "geek" project into a piece of software that can be installed and used by even less technical computer users. In this issue, we talk to Kris Moore, PC-BSD lead developer, about his love affair with FreeBSD and the upcoming PC-BSD 7.0. In the news section, Fedora admits that some of its servers have been compromised, Novell signs a new, US$100 million "interoperability" deal with Microsoft, openSUSE ads SELinux support as an alternative security framework, and gNewSense celebrates its second birthday with an updated release of the "freest" Linux distribution. Finally, FreeBSD announces tentative release dates for its upcoming versions 6.4 and 7.1. All this and more in this issue of DistroWatch Weekly - happy reading!
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in ogg (16MB) and mp3 (16MB) formats (many thanks to Russ Wenner)
Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
Interview with Kris Moore, PC-BSD lead developer
The so-called "distribution for the average Joe" market has been expanding at a rapid pace in recent years. While the vast majority of these projects is invariably based on Linux, we have also witnessed a few attempts to create a user-friendly "distribution" based on operating systems that traditionally belonged to the hacker's domain, notably FreeBSD and OpenSolaris. One of them is PC-BSD, a project launched in 2005. Its main goal? To hide the complexity of FreeBSD and to deliver an alternative to Linux on the desktop. Its main claim to fame? The web-based software installation infrastructure called PBI. Its community? Over 8,000 registered forum members and a growing network of world-wide community sites. All this thanks to the original vision and undying conviction of Kris Moore (pictured on the right), the founder and lead developer of PC-BSD.
Kris was kind enough to answer a few questions about his beginnings with FreeBSD and the forthcoming release of PC-BSD 7.0.
* * * * *
DW: Kris, thank you very much for your time. First, could you please introduce yourself? How old are you? Where do you live? What do you do for living?
KM: I am 27 years old, married with 3 young children under the age of 5 (so you can imagine it's pretty hectic around here at times), I live near the beautiful smoky mountains of east Tennessee, in the town of Maryville, and work developing PC-BSD for a living.
DW: Tell us about the beginnings of your love affair with FreeBSD. How did it all start?
KM: Back in the mid-nineties, I started working as a phone technician at a local dial-up ISP, who just happened to run all FreeBSD on its servers. This was my first experience with any sort of *nix based system, and I learned a lot just experimenting with a command prompt for the first time. After I left this job to go to college, I didn't play with FreeBSD for a few years, until afterwards, when I wanted to set up an Apache-based web server.
By this point, I had obtained a few older desktops, and was playing around with various Linux distributions on them, such as Caldera, Red Hat, and SuSE, and enjoyed the nice GUI-based installation systems they offered. However, when I ended up using one of those distros for the web server, I ran into security problems, including a server being hacked into less than 24 hours after finishing a default server install. At that point, I remembered our system administrator back at the ISP, and how he swore up and down about the security and reliability of the FreeBSD system, and I decided to give it another shot. After a few hours of set-up and configuration, I had our FreeBSD Apache server up and running, and that system stayed secure and reliable for its entire lifetime.
DW: What inspired you to create an easy-to-use desktop OS based on a relatively hard-to-use BSD system?
KM: During my time of setting up BSD-based servers, I was still experimenting with various Linux distributions on the desktop. There were several times when I made the jump to run my desktop entirely on Linux, but each time I continued to run into problems. For the most part these weren't hardware issues, rather the problems all dealt with the area of package management. I grew more and more frustrated with the whole concept of a "packaged" distribution, in which all the individual programs are really a part of the OS itself. When trying to upgrade one package, it often triggered updates in other dependencies, which in turn updated other applications, and just often enough something would fail, causing a big mess that I was stuck trying to resolve.
At this point, I began to think, why is it that here we are after the year 2000, and I still have to fix some silly dependency issue, when all I wanted to do was run the latest version of X application. It's not that I couldn't fix the problems, but rather that I had better things to do than wasting time doing it. So I started experimenting with the concept of a self-extracting, self-contained package system, in which programs installed themselves, and lived in their own separate directories, not scattered across the landscape of the OS in a myriad of directories and file systems.
At first I wanted to try the self-contained, package management system on Linux, but found quickly that the differences between the various distros was a huge hurdle to overcome, and aside from a common kernel, pretty much all of them were so different, that a common package management system would be near impossible. This also didn't mesh with my idea of trying to keep the OS and the software completely separate.
Luckily, I was already fairly well-versed in FreeBSD, and decided instead that building our desktop OS on BSD would be far more viable in the long run. I felt, and still feel, that at its core, FreeBSD itself was actually far easier to use than Linux, because of the consistency it provided. All it needed was some of the same attention that Linux has gotten over the years, namely a nice GUI-based installer, and graphical tools to make running the desktop doable for casual computer users.
DW: Do you still get the chance to play with Linux? If so, what do you think are the main differences between the mainstream desktop Linux distributions, such as Ubuntu or Mandriva, and PC-BSD? What do you think are the most compelling reasons for choosing PC-BSD over desktop Linux?
KM: It has been a while since I've sat down and used any of the mainstream desktop Linux distributions, so I've only seen most of the recent versions in passing. However, at first glance to an end user, they would appear to be very similar. We are running on KDE, have a nice working desktop, with 3D support, sound, WiFi and almost all of the same open-source programs, such as Firefox, OpenOffice.org, K3B, etc.
Where the user would immediately begin to notice a difference is in package management. Instead of a large management program, or a repository, users will download a single .pbi file (Firefox3.0.1.pbi, for example). Double-click it, and Firefox will be installed in its own separate directory, such as /Programs/Firefox3.0.1. No mess, no fuss, it just works as it should.
Another area where more experienced users will notice a difference is when they dig down into the command prompt. PC-BSD is 100% FreeBSD under the hood, not a fork. This means experienced users are free to use FreeBSD's ports and package system, re-roll kernels, and tweak the system in any way they see fit.
DW: What about DesktopBSD? Are you in touch with their developers? Do you ever cooperate? How would you compare the two systems, both of which seem to have exactly the same goal - to bring FreeBSD to the desktop of an average computer user?
KM: We communicate with the DesktopBSD developers from time to time. Most of our goals are similar, except in package management. DesktopBSD provides a nice GUI tool which allows users to install software via the FreeBSD ports and packages system. This would appeal to more technical desktop users, while PC-BSD tries to focus on the PBI system, which we feel allows *any* user, either moving from Windows or Mac OS X, to switch to our system and feel immediately productive.
DW: The development of the upcoming PC-BSD 7 is in full swing, with weekly alpha builds getting more and more usable with each release. Can you please introduce the new version? What are the main new features compared to the previous stable PC-BSD release?
KM: PC-BSD 7 is a large step forward in our releases. First of all, we have switched the version scheme to match the base FreeBSD version, which is why we are jumping from PC-BSD 1.5 to PC-BSD 7. This is our first release based on FreeBSD 7, which includes much better driver support, WiFi support, greatly improved SMP support with the ULE scheduler and more. We also have moved to KDE 4.1 and ported our PBI system and GUI toolset to Qt 4.x at the same time. Version 7 will offer several new installation methods as well, including CDs 1 - 3, a DVD, USB image, and boot-only CD/USB image which will allow you to install from a local network or the Internet. This should make getting PC-BSD installed easier than ever, with options for everyone.
PC-BSD 7.0 will be based on FreeBSD 7.0 and will ship with the latest KDE 4.1.
(full image size: 386kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
DW: You have obviously decided that KDE 4.1 will be the default desktop in PC-BSD 7. Was this an easy decision or do you still sometimes have doubts about its usability and bugs? Will there be an option to install KDE 3.5 for those who aren't yet ready to migrate to KDE 4?
KM: This was a tough decision, but one we felt was worth the effort. Since this release is a huge jump up anyway to FreeBSD 7, it will be more worth it in the long run. With all of our tools now KDE4/Qt4-based, we can simply issue patches and online updates to the KDE 4.x desktop quickly, which is not as huge of a jump as it would be releasing with KDE 3.5.x, and then trying to jump to KDE 4 a few months down the road. At this time we don't plan on including KDE 3.5.9 in the default install, but more technical users are welcome to do so via ports after installing the OS. (They can both be installed at the same time.)
DW: A technical one about file systems in PC-BSD: the latest alpha builds offer three file system options: UFS2, UFS2 + Soft Updates, UFS2 + Journaling. Could you please briefly discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each? Why is UFS2 + soft updates the default file system?
KM: Actually we are offering four file system types, including ZFS, which can be enabled during the installation boot-up. ZFS, however, is aimed at server installs and probably won't be seen on the desktop as often due to its larger hardware / RAM requirements. On the desktop side of things, we have expanded to offer some choice this time around. Previously we had defaulted to UFS2 + Soft Updates, which we still default to in this release. This was done primarily because during the testing phase, it has proved to be the most reliable and consistent choice for a desktop. UFS + Journaling is also a good choice for a desktop, since it negates the necessity of having to do an "fsck" after a power-failure, among other things.
DW: Will it be possible to upgrade an older PC-BSD version to PC-BSD 7.0 or do you recommend a clean installation?
KM: I'm still working on the upgrade system and hope to have it allow upgrades from PC-BSD 1.5.x -> 7. However, I would strongly recommend a clean install, since this is a very large jump forward, and most programs installed on PC-BSD 1.x (based on FreeBSD 6) will most likely not be binary compatible with 7.
DW: How long before PC-BSD 7.0 goes gold? What exactly still needs to be implemented or fixed prior to the product being declared good enough for public consumption?
KM: We are hitting code freeze this Monday, the 25th, and will then release a public beta in the following week. After that, as long as no serious bugs are found, we plan on going gold early to mid-September.
DW: Kris, thank you very much for your answers and best of luck with your work!
Fedora and Red Hat servers compromised - CentOS unaffected, Novell extends "interoperability" deal; openSUSE ads SELinux support, gNewSense celebrates second birthday, user-visible changes in NetBSD 5.0
Let's start with an item that dominated the coverage on many Linux web sites - the security breach of Fedora and Red Hat servers. This is what happened: "Last week we discovered that some Fedora servers were illegally accessed. The intrusion into the servers was quickly discovered, and the servers were taken offline. One of the compromised Fedora servers was a system used for signing Fedora packages. However, based on our efforts, we have high confidence that the intruder was not able to capture the passphrase used to secure the Fedora package signing key." The fact that it took Fedora more than a week to publish a report on the problem was heavily criticised by some media (see this article by ITWire). However, the simple truth is that as soon as Fedora discovered the breach, they have stopped providing software updates, they mobilised their resources to deal with the situation and, once they analysed the extent of the problem, published a report about it. That's pretty much what I would expect from any distribution - nothing more and nothing less. The incident also confirms another fact: there is no such thing as "100% secure" and similar issues are bound to happen from time to time (one of the Debian servers was also hit by a security compromise in July 2006). While it is regrettable that a server of a major Linux project gets broken into, there is no doubt that Fedora has dealt with the situation in a highly efficient, competent and responsible manner.
* * * * *
As far as the users of Red Hat Enterprise Linux are concerned, the company sent out the following security alert (RHSA-2008-0855) to its customers: "Last week Red Hat detected an intrusion on certain of its computer systems and took immediate action. ... In connection with the incident, the intruder was able to sign a small number of OpenSSH packages relating only to Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 (i386 and x86_64 architectures only) and Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 (x86_64 architecture only). As a precautionary measure, we are releasing an updated version of these packages, and have published a list of the tampered packages and how to detect them." But those customers who use Red Hat Network to update their products are not affected by the issue: "Our processes and efforts to date indicate that packages obtained by Red Hat Enterprise Linux subscribers via Red Hat Network are not at risk."
* * * * *
Next, it was the turn of CentOS, a distribution that is effectively a clone of Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) and which uses RHEL packages for their own security updates. Karanbir Singh in CentOS position on systems intrusion at Red Hat: "We take security issues very seriously, and as soon as we were made aware of the situation I undertook a complete audit of the entire CentOS 4/5 build and signing infrastructure. We can now assure everyone that no compromise has taken place anywhere within the CentOS infrastructure. Our entire set-up is located behind multiple firewalls, and only accessible from a very small number of places, by only a few people. Also included in this audit were all entry points to the build services, signing machines, primary release machines and connectivity between all these hosts. ... Finally, while we feel confident that there is no possibility of this compromise having been passed onto the CentOS user base, we still encourage users to verify their packages independently using whatever resources they might have available."
* * * * *
The second big newsmaker of the week was Novell as it announced a massive US$100 million expansion of its original "interoperability" agreement with Microsoft. The press release was very clear about the target and benefactors of this agreement - the company's high-volume enterprise customers: "The collaboration between Microsoft and Novell has been built on our desire to meet our customers' real-life IT requirements as well as give our partners greater breadth in their solution offerings." Unfortunately for Novell, the deal is unlikely to go down well with the Linux community, which is generally suspicious of any involvement in Linux by Microsoft, a company with a long-history of threats and anti-Linux FUD campaigns. This is a delicate balancing act on the part of the Utah-based networking giant - on the one hand, its shareholders want the company to deliver solid financial results. On the other hand, however, Novell also needs to be careful not to alienate its openSUSE developer and user community. A difficult task indeed....
* * * * *
Speaking about openSUSE, a surprise announcement appeared on the project's news site last week: the upcoming openSUSE 11.1 will include support for SELinux, a Linux kernel security framework developed by the US-based National Security Agency (NSA): "Beginning with openSUSE 11.1, SUSE users will have an additional option regarding security frameworks. In addition to AppArmor, we will be adding SELinux capabilities in openSUSE 11.1, which will allow users to enable SELinux in openSUSE if they wish. While our customer experience shows that AppArmor is the best solution for the vast majority of users, applications, and use cases, we want to give all of our users the ability to choose the security framework that's appropriate for their respective environments and needs." Although the announcement insists that SELinux will become nothing more than an alternative security option, others are more sceptical about the future of AppArmor: "In late 2007 Novell laid off almost all the developers of AppArmor with the aim of having the community do all the coding. Crispin Cowan (the founder and leader of the AppArmor project) was later hired by Microsoft. ... In a way it's a pity that AppArmor is going away so quickly. The lack of competition is not good for the market, and homogeneity isn't good for security. But on the other hand, this means more resources will be available for SELinux development which will be a good thing."
* * * * *
The fans of free software, as defined by Richard Stallman's Free Software Foundation (FSF), had a chance to rejoice late last week as the gNewSense project announced an updated release of its Ubuntu-based, 100% free Linux distribution (see the "Released Last Week" section below). Interestingly, the release was announced as the project celebrated its second anniversary since the first beta build had hit the download mirrors in August 2006. Brian Brazil, the project's founder and lead developer: "I've just realised that tomorrow will mark the 2-year anniversary of our first release. Accordingly, it's somewhat appropriate that our 10th live CD is released today. It's strange to think that it's well over 2 years since Paul and I started gNewSense. While I remain the main developer, many other people have contributed code, and many many more time and effort, to ensure that this distribution stays free and usable. We were the first to remove all non-free blobs from the kernel and also the first to remove GLX. Through all this work we have produced what is, to the best of my knowledge, the freest GNU/Linux distribution in existence. I'd like to thank everyone for their help and support thus far, and look forward to the future of gNewSense."
gNewSense 2.1 - the freest Linux distribution of them all
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* * * * *
Finally, an update on a project that doesn't often get much coverage in the mainstream computing media, but which nevertheless continues to provide a free operating system for a vast range of devices and processors - NetBSD. With the upcoming version 5.0 about to enter final testing, here is a list of some interesting changes since 4.0, as summarised in Hubert Feyrer's NetBSD 5.0 preview: User visible changes in NetBSD-current: "I've found a bit of spare time to upgrade a NetBSD 4.0 system to NetBSD-current (4.99.69), and during the usual update procedure (boot new kernel; build.sh install=/; etcupdate) I found a number of user-visible changes over NetBSD 4.0 that I'd like to spotlight here: 1. audit-packages and download-vulnerability-list are now part of the NetBSD base system, there's no longer a need to install them via pkgsrc. 2. Per-user-tmp: currently, /tmp is shared by all users. In order to avoid name clashes, the /tmp directory can be made to be unique for each user now. 3. httpd: NetBSD now ships with a web server in base. 4. dhcpcd: NetBSD has shipped with ISC's DHCP client so far, which uses quite a bit or memory. As a supplement, Roy Marples' dhcpcd has been added to the base system. 5. /boot.cfg: NetBSD's second stage bootloader can now load a configuration file on the i386 and amd64 platforms."
|Released Last Week
EnGarde Secure Linux 3.0.20
Guardian Digital has announced the release of EnGarde Secure Linux 3.0.20: "Guardian Digital is happy to announce the release of EnGarde Secure Linux Community 3.0.20. This release includes many updated packages and bug fixes and some feature enhancements to the EnGarde Secure Linux installer and the SELinux policy. New features include: several new packages such as CUPS (1.3.7), lockdev (1.0.1), Minicom (2.3); the latest stable versions of MySQL (5.0.51b), Alpine (1.10), Apache (2.2.9), Asterisk (22.214.171.124), BIND (9.4.2-P1), Dovecot (1.1.1), Linux kernel (2.6.26), OpenSSH (5.0p1), PHP (5.2.6), Postfix (2.5.2), PostgreSQL (8.2.9), Samba (3.2.0)...." Read the release announcement and release notes for further information.
antiX MEPIS 7.5
MEPIS has announced a new release of antiX MEPIS, a Debian-based distribution designed to run on computers with older or limited hardware: "Anti and MEPIS announce the release of antiX MEPIS 7.5 'Toussaint Louverture'. Built using the MEPIS Linux 7.0 core, including the MEPIS 2.6.22 kernel and utilities, along with selected additions from Debian 'Lenny', this light-weight operating system is especially appropriate for older hardware and users who like a very fast and highly configurable system. New features based on community contributions are led by the antiX Control Centre, which provides a single place for managing desktop, system, network, and hardware. Also the well-tested smxi script permits the user to maintain a rolling upgrade of kernels and drivers" Read the rest of the release announcement for more information.
antiX MEPIS 7.5 - an interesting alternative for older or underpowered boxes
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Zenwalk Linux 5.2 "GNOME"
George Vlahavas has announced the final release of Zenwalk Linux 5.2 "GNOME" edition: "Zenwalk GNOME 5.2 is now available. Based on Zenwalk current, it features the latest stable GNOME 2.22.3 Desktop, with a familiar Zenwalk desktop layout and beautiful Zenwalk artwork. Included in this release are Linux kernel 126.96.36.199, the latest X.Org 7.3 suite of X servers and the next generation of the Netpkg package manager. Zenwalk GNOME follows the 'one application per task' philosophy: Iceweasel and Icedove for all your browsing and email needs, wicd for easy connecting to wireless networks, Brasero for burning CD/DVD discs, AbiWord and Gnumeric for your office needs, the GIMP for editing graphics files and photos, gtkam for managing your digital camera and gmusicbrowser for handling huge collections of music. Totem is the multimedia player of choice." Here is the complete release announcement.
A "GNOME" edition of the Slackware-based Zenwalk Linux made its official debut over the weekend.
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Brian Brazil has announced the release of gNewSense 2.1, an updated version of the Ubuntu-based distribution which contains free software only: "I've just released the live CD for gNewSense 2.1, the second full release of 'DeltaH'. This brings in a number of updates, fixes and improvements. Changes since 2.0 include: Linux-ubuntu-modules cleared of non-free blobs; usplash added; new theme and artwork; re-added fix for module-init-tools for eepro100; builder - live CD no longer asks for password on sudo; builder - added support for extra repositories in python-apt; builder - various tweaks, fixes and improvements. Upgrading from 1.9/2.0: Follow the upgrade notifications in GNOME. There's no need to download the 2.1 CD. To change to the gNewSense theme in GNOME, go to System -> Preferences -> Appearance. Select 'gNewSense' in the 'Themes' tab and press 'Close'." Read the full release announcement for more details.
* * * * *
Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
|Upcoming Releases and Announcements
FreeBSD 6.4 and 7.1
The FreeBSD project has published a preliminary roadmap that will eventually lead to the stable versions 6.4 and 7.1, both of which are expected in the first half of October 2008. For more information please see the announcement on FreeBSDNews.net. As always, this is a tentative proposal rather than a fixed release schedule and delays can be expected.
* * * * *
Summary of expected upcoming releases
Site news: translation to Urdu, status reclassification|
Two quick site updates. Firstly, the native speakers of Urdu, the national language of Pakistan and one of the many official languages of India, can now read parts of DistroWatch in their language - all thanks to excellent work by Muhammad Fahd Waseem. Secondly, Luke Seubert has volunteered to check the status of each distribution (whether it's active, dormant or discontinued) and update the DistroWatch database. This work is ongoing; it should result in greater accuracy and in elimination of those projects that no longer work on their distributions. Many thanks to both Luke and Muhammad for their help.
* * * * *
New distributions added to database
* * * * *
DistroWatch database summary
* * * * *
And this concludes the latest issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 1 September 2008.
|Linux Foundation Training
|Reader Comments • Jump to last comment
1 • DistroWatch.com in Urdu (by Dr.Saleem Khan on 2008-08-25 08:37:19 GMT from Pakistan) |
It is really an appreciable work to translate DistroWatch into Urdu by Muhammad Fahd Waseem . It is going to help many of people in Pakistan to read and learn more about Linux in their native language.
I am ready to assist Muhammad Fahd Waseem in his this excellent work if ever needed.
Keep the good work continued.
2 • I Am Itching to Try PC-BSD Now! Thanks DW Weekly... (by Emmanuel Morales on 2008-08-25 08:57:09 GMT from United States)
Thanks DW Weekly...
Your awesome interview relating to PC-BSD has got me ready to grab an ISO image and getting it installed.
At this rate DistroWatch, you'll have me go through all my disks!
Thanks DistroWatch Weekly....
Seriously, That was a good issue. Keep up the good work!
3 • Interview with Kris Moore (by Michael F. on 2008-08-25 09:03:06 GMT from United States)
I really wonder if the pbi package management concept is such a good idea. While it will certainly attract windows users, I for my part, beeing a linux user with debian bases feel that there is nothing better than a nice apt-get update / apt-get dist-upgrade every now and then to have a fully up-to-date system. Actually I never really run into any trouble with dependencies and I find the upgrading mechanism for all the windows apps rather annoying (I know none other than upgrading all apps manually).
4 • Reflections on Kris Moore interview (by Luke Seubert on 2008-08-25 09:31:08 GMT from United States)
Excellent interview with Kris Moore - detailed and insightful.
I note that Kris had some serious issues with old Linux distros in the area of rependencies. All the distros he listed were .rpm based. I can't help but wonder if he had tried a .deb based distro using apt-get, which has long done a superb job of resolving dependency issues; that things might have turned out differently.
These days, most rpm based distros do have the tools to elegantly and easily deal with dependencies. But back then, RPM suffered its own version of "dll hell", and it wasn't fun.
5 • Been watching PC-BSD (by Zac on 2008-08-25 09:36:50 GMT from Australia)
Their package management idea I like. I don't know the details such as how easy to put together a pbi or how reliable the installation is even when installing many programs and tools, but it is the right way to go. I am extremely happy with my Ubuntu 8.04 but one thing I want to see is a change in the way programs are installed and updated. We need a 21st century way of doing this. It's hard though, people get entrenched in their ways.
6 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 10:13:36 GMT from Canada)
PC-BSD *New concept" - pity the interviewer (and PC-BSD's own
home pages don't reveal much
At a cursory glance - if Apps are "stand-alone"
It indicates the philosphy is to rely on STATIC libraries
Wherin all dependecies are enclosed
If a user has any proior knowldege of Linux_variant offerings_:
They might be aware of the overhead (& drawbacks) of that principle
Any Pkge Mgt has own burdens (size/back_forward compatibilites etc.)
Performance testing may show why dynamic libraries are the
preferred de-facto standards adopted by majority
(DLL ring any bells)
Chris makes a living from PC-BSD - as a consultant ?
What licsence is it released under
Some may have a problem of ethics -wherein a business venture
is built upon Freely donated time/talents of others
OTOH. in a philosophical level - what will be the outcome
of a segment of society ....
That is comfortable with *totally *free* free products -
E.G. > NO monetary cost - No personal efforts needed -
Sounds great - who does the maintenance let alone the "costs"
(personal & out-of- pocket) of supplying ?
Never look a gift horse
When something seems to good to be true ?
Personally - I am reminded of : (^& really don't care to "persuade others)
There is no such thing as a free lunch
Sorry if that comes across as a dejaded cynic -
blame it noting other offerings failng to meet expectations
We do wish best of success to Chris etal
Once FAQ's & Docs fully enlighten toe-dippers
Shame the interviewer didn't do homework ?
7 • PC BSD (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 10:52:39 GMT from China)
i tryed PC BSD and Desktop BSD I liked them. Keep them for several time but i didnt found Why i used it. hardware detection was (is???) crappy and there some bugs in the package manager that i really dont like. I dont complain about bugs i complain about the fact that PC BSD has no real Killerfeature for the Standard User.
Bootime doesnt really seems to be better. also performence seems similar to Mandriva and co.
8 • Kudos for the news on NetBSD! (by Béranger on 2008-08-25 10:57:23 GMT from Romania)
Really, congrats for not missing the opportunity to report on the developments on NetBSD's side!
Plus, hubertf rulz :-)
9 • package management? (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 11:10:30 GMT from Finland)
What is wrong with Ubuntu package updates? Works perfectly.
10 • Net BSD : PC-BSD : Desktop BSD (by Hugh E Torrance on 2008-08-25 12:03:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have Desktop BSD at the moment and I have had all the BSD,s in the past and all of them have had their problems,in particular I have found USB support flakey so I am waiting for the new PC-BSD with interest...
11 • PC-BSD packages (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 12:06:53 GMT from France)
Actually FreeBSD's ports and make package management is far more powerful than apt-get. Its the top of the top. As he sais in the interview, it is still available. The pbis are available in addition to the best package manager for the Windows and MacOS refugees. To each his own. Although the pbi are a backward way to handle packages, it has the advantage of being usable for some people who are still not confortable with the better system.
12 • reply to --by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 10:13:36 GMT from Canada (by Rgagne on 2008-08-25 12:38:43 GMT from United States)
i think that Kris live out of his work because IXsystem sell the server version ..... so the desktop is free and IX pay the bills from my point of view is the perfect match
13 • PC-BSD packages (by Michael F. on 2008-08-25 13:08:38 GMT from United States)
#11 could you perhaps state why "FreeBSD's ports and make package management are far more powerful than apt-get"?
At the moment apt-get offers all the choices I need. I do not see anything that should be improved here. (perhaps apart from the security of some repositories as it has been in the news recently that they are quite vulnerable to dedicated attackers. Not sure if BSD repositories lack the same issues)
14 • PC-BSD and PBI (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 13:29:15 GMT from Canada)
Kudos to Kris Moore and the PC-BSD team. The concept of having a known standard base system (a minimum but complete FreeBSD installation), and adding optional software in their own self-contained packages and directories makes perfect sense to me, technically and operationally. Looking forward to the upcoming release.
15 • Linux vs Windows? Windows wins hands down! (by Jason Pertly on 2008-08-25 13:34:45 GMT from United States)
Here is a thought for you about why people are still struggling to get Linux as a option to Windows in broad terms: There are two types of computers out there, namely Apples and Windows. Apples do not have a big market share compared to Windows. So, you find out how much marketshare Linux has in the OS market, and what ever you find, remember to divide that percentage by the number of distro's out there to get the true answer.
Windows is more popular that Linux cause Linux is destroying, or rather retarding their own growth. When it comes to the other OS option, Linux, you have to pick a Distro from, what, 200 option? I wanted another OS, other than Windows. Hell, you tell someone that they have a choice to not use Windows, they say great, how? You say, just pick one of these 200 options.
When it comes to Linux, you have this potential perfect OS, only thing is, no-one can agree to what standard they should use. We see this type of thing constantly,back in the day of DVD-R or DVD+R or both or neither. Now, Blue-Ray or HD-DVD? But with Linux: Ubuntu vs CentOS vs Mandriva vs ArchLinux vs Centoo vs Knoppix vs OpenSUSE vs Linspire vs Slackware vs LinuxMint vs ...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...nope, I'll stick with Windows, at least I know who to call and shout at when my PC does not work!
16 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 13:39:59 GMT from United States)
Question to the BSD community reading:
How does the BSD get better hardware support? Is it with each minor update? ie: FreeBSD7.0 -> FreeBSD7.1 or is this something I have to compile into the kernel? I ask because I am not 100% on how BSD runs things and I find it discouraging coming from my linux background to have a lot of my newer hardware not work with BSD but work in linux.
17 • Competent Fedora Report? (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 13:57:11 GMT from Germany)
Did I miss a mention how their system were compromised? Was some key/password/laptop raped? Or does one have to assume now that there is an unknown remote hole which is actively being exploited and other distros/projects are also in danger?
18 • re 15 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 14:02:20 GMT from Canada)
you have to pick a Distro from, what, 200 option?
I think there are more than 500 distros
When it comes to Linux, you have this potential perfect OS, only thing is, no-one can agree to what standard they should use. We see this type of thing constantly,back in the day of DVD-R or DVD+R or both or neither. Now, Blue-Ray or HD-DVD? But with Linux: Ubuntu vs CentOS vs Mandriva vs ArchLinux vs Centoo vs Knoppix vs OpenSUSE vs Linspire vs Slackware vs LinuxMint vs ...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...vs...nope, I'll stick with Windows, at least I know who to call and shout at when my PC does not work!
You know who to call and shout at when your PC does not work if you remember which distro is installed on your machine. If you don't remember that, then you should definitely stick with Windows.
PS: Why did you even bother to post here? To enlighten us?
19 • Responding to a whole bunch of stuff (by Nobody important on 2008-08-25 14:09:23 GMT from United States)
@15: First off, I'm surprised that you actually posted here. What does that have to do with the DWW issue? I'm thinking of crying troll, but you bring up a valid point.
And yet, again, the concept of choice really drives anything you say out of the picture. Do I want support? I can get support with Ubuntu (if I pay, of course). Do I want a totally free, open, standard OS? Debian, or Fedora. A big DVD full of software? Sabayon, OpenSUSE, whatever. All kinds of options, and all very valid, interesting options.
Choice, choice, choice. Try saying "choice" to Microsoft, and they'll show you more expensive ways of buying Windows Vista; Apple will laugh in your face. But you give that Windows-escapist Ubuntu to play with, and if they like it then they can learn more about it, maybe try a new distro. There are basic options to work with, just like every other option,a nd it's arguably the most popular.
Is there one distro to rule them all? No. That's a Good Thing. It keeps us honest, competitive, and, above all, in a state where we all want to succeed in our own ways. We all have our favorites, but at the end of the day, we all want everybody to make a good OS. None of them are really that different.
Also, your concept of "Market Share" doesn't work for Linux. It isn't sold. There are a heck of a lot of Linux computers out there that are counted as Windows because it came preinstalled. So market share discussions are worthless, maybe more.
@ PC-BSD: I used it for a while when Windows decided to go bust on me back in the 1.4 days. Great distro for the most part; pretty, secure, easy (I love the PBI thing, but they're never updated), but it never detected flash drives, iPods, other hard drives, sometimes CD's in the drive. If that's fixed, I'd be more than happy to go back. It was one of the fastest, quickest distros I've very used.
20 • RE: 15 Sorry Jason but you are wrong. (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-08-25 14:22:55 GMT from United States)
Jason you make comments about market share but you do not understand market share or how the business works. So how you see it really doesn't really matter on that subject. You talk about an os to replace Windows. You need to learn that a linux distro is just that, a distro. You do not know anything about standards. All distributions use the linux kernel and they do have standards. There again you know not what you are talking about. Would you prefer just one os for your computer? I'm sure that you are not looking for another so why are you even worried about it. Apple makes computers. Windows does not. Another silly statement. What are you even doing on the Distrowatch site? You come here ranting with just plain stupid statements and for what reason. You have been weighted and found wanting.
21 • @15 (by Casey Jones on 2008-08-25 14:28:34 GMT from United States)
>When it comes to the other OS option, Linux, you have to pick a Distro from,
>what, 200 option? I wanted another OS, other than Windows. Hell, you tell
>someone that they have a choice to not use Windows, they say great, how? You
>say, just pick one of these 200 options.
Choice is bad. People shouldn't be able to choose.
22 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 14:30:36 GMT from United States)
@15 -- We have too many cars. That must be why I see people walking and biking so much. They just can't decide which car to buy. Somebody should come along and get rid of all these care manufacturers, except for one big one that we can all agree on. Hey, you know what? Do the same for clothes. I really don't like the color purple. What are all these people doing walking around in purple shirts? Somebody should just come up with uniforms for us all to wear every day.
23 • No Go BSD (by Zbreaker on 2008-08-25 14:35:01 GMT from United States)
Always had an interest, but never any luck with the BSD's.....they would all bOrk my networking...no internet. Something to do with the Nvidia nforce 4 board I think. I've seen others with the same prob around...hopefully some day.
24 • Ahem (by Nobody important on 2008-08-25 14:37:03 GMT from United States)
I think you can all stop now. Don't feed the trolls too much, or they'll get angry and start pouting.
Back on topic.
Oh, and I forgot to mention, due to my crime-book reading spree, I saw the three server issues (plus Mint's issues as well) and said, Hmm, looks like there are bad guys on the loose...
Ah ha, Mister Number Fifteen was the one behind all this! You'll never take down Linux, you miserable goat!
25 • @ 15 (by Mike on 2008-08-25 14:41:53 GMT from United States)
Who ya gonna call when a trojan lands and steals your banking info?
Or credit card info? or..or..or..or..
26 • @ 15 (by Alan UK on 2008-08-25 14:55:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
The big difference is that Windows/Mac are pre-installed on the computer you purchase, so one less major decision to make. The Dell/Ubuntu tie-up might just become the third easy choice in this situation.
27 • Re:15 (by Dante on 2008-08-25 14:59:16 GMT from Netherlands)
The stiff competition between linux-distro`s is also what makes them grow the fastest.
Choosing the wright distro can be an adventures journey but if you are not the adventures type it is best to stay `Home` (winXP-Home-edition that is ;).
28 • @21 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 15:03:27 GMT from United States)
Choice is bad???
People should not be able to choose????
Welcome to the forum Mr Balmer, nice to see you. How how things at Microsoft these days?
29 • Colour it blew (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 15:13:55 GMT from Canada)
Ahh well, it can't be just about choices
After all, once made > why vist DWW
Maybe it's the *entertainment_factor*
Certainly getting a "view' is as accurate as;
Deciding from the descriptions of the three blind men
> When they examined an elephant
BTW - Someone should "interiew" Barry Kauler (Puppy)
He announced errr, "retirement"
Now THERE (the Murga forum) is ahem - entertainment
Sorry Kris (mispelt name)
There is nothing wrong w/commercial entrepreneurism
The only niggles - IF/when it relies heavily on FREE donations.
As to static libraries -(PC-BSB ?) it takes more than a casual savvy
of inner workings
To be aware of trade-offs (too many IMO)
Odd nobody to date has addressed the vaunted security of BSD origins
Heavy reliance on "up-stream maintainers", is altogether another matter
Hardly surprising ~ few (linux variants) have resources to
rigorously test for ABI vulnerabilities
Let alone the core kernel
'Hands-off" (Ease of use) invariably interprets into...
lazy users (save for embedded solutions)
What IS the personal definition of *FREE* ???
Are you certain there will be no "cost" ( free-load)
as in - candy assing/getting what we PAID for warranties ?
(Don't ya all luv those disclaimers:
"There is no guarentee as to suitablity....)
> expressed or implied"
Best to all
30 • PC-BSD && #15 (by Hootiegibbon on 2008-08-25 15:37:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
I am looking forward to the release of PC-BSD7 and have been following its constant improvement, I was put off initially by PBI's seeing them as a compromise, although after listening to an interview with Kris Moore on how PBI's run in userspace and make the calls to/from the OS but not actually 'touching' the install itself soon realized the obvious benefits.
Once released and as long as it recognizes all my hardware (the alphas dont like my atheros 242x aka 5007EG wireless) PCBSD7 will be Dual Booted with PCLinuxOS on my laptop, Well done so far Kris Moore & Team
@ #15, Loook at least try to make a valid argument by knowing your subject,all you have convinced people of here is that you dont know a computer from an apple or a window, there are more than two types of PC, there are i?86 based (insert 3,4,5 or 6 into the ?) there are AMD based PC's (ther are the equivilent in 64bit's also) there are PPC based computers, and many others (spark etc,) why not take a Visit to the NetBSD site to see how many different types of PC's there are, and which ones are able to use which OS
Also Market share is a fallacy, as Linux and BSD are for the most part not purchased. and the traditional way to measure 'Market Share' is by its volume in sales turnover over a period of time...
And as mentioned above, will the people who you 'call' help you remove a malware ? I suggest you try calling them when you catch a virus or have a malware install against your permission or knowledge and see how quick they are to advise you to go to a third party to remove it....
With Linux and *BSD you have the ultimate in 'tech support' right at your doorstep, the community (you may know what that means...) that has grown around the distro of YOUR CHOICE. sure sometimes we have our 'inter distro disagreements' but thats what happens when you have a rock solid stable OS and time to think, and not have to worry to check for the latest viral threat every day.
Perhaps you should actually try a distro.. you may like it and if not you have the ability to choose what you use and try another.
31 • Novell & Microsoft (by fstephens on 2008-08-25 15:51:26 GMT from United States)
Novell and Suse should be shunned for participating in this Faustian deal.
I did a post on the problems with Microsoft in which I said "Microsoft is the "Evil Empire" of the computer world. Despite some hypocritical posturing about "openness", Microsoft is the same old company with deep pockets and shallow ethics." and "...appeasement or pacts with the Devil rarely work out well" .
32 • GNewsense (by ssam on 2008-08-25 15:52:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
GNewsense seems to be missing a big opportunity in opens source drivers. A lot of interesting stuff is going on at the moment, ath5k and ath9k, nouveau, radeonhd etc. GNewsense ought to be integrating these, and promoting them.
Instead they seem to have pulled out all accelerated 3D support!?! this seems like a 'i want to suffer to show how devout i am' attitude.
I know these open drivers are not complete, but the more people that get involved using and test them, the sooner they will be.
33 • re 18 (re 15) (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 15:52:34 GMT from United States)
Just another troll. Yet another person who knows absolutely nothing about software development, and thinks, "if all the developers could work on the same thing, everything would be so much better!" It doesn't work that way, Mr. Troll. If you could pass this on to all the other trolls, we'd greatly appreciate it, thanks.
Competition spurs innovation, otherwise software (indeed, anything) will stagnate. It's a sad truth, but it is the truth, no matter how idealistic you are. Here's an example you'll understand: look at IE 6, which tortured Windows users for 5 years before MS woke up and realized they had better improve it before Firefox stole the market. All of a sudden there's competition, and now look at version 7 of Internet Explorer...much, much better.
Though many of the disagreements are ideological, Linux development benefits in much the same way. For instance, GNOME began because KDE was being developed using the then non-free Qt toolkit. The ideological disagreement is still there to a lesser extent (Qt is free now), but more importantly the two projects try to outdo each other and the users reap the benefits.
34 • Microsoft Linux (by PastorEd at 2008-08-25 16:07:33 GMT from United States)
Okay, I know that Linux users are supposed to hate Microsoft for all the terrible things they've done to innovation in computing, shady monopolistic business practices, Windows ME & Vista... etc. That being said, I'd really like someone to try and give me an answer that I can wrap my head around to this question:
Why doesn't Microsoft develop its OWN distribution of Linux?
Microsoft's usual MO is to extend, absorb, and rebrand, right? That's how some of "their" best software came to be around - they saw that someone else was doing the job better than they were, they bought their company out, stripped the software of what they wanted, and slapped their own name on it (Internet Explorer, Publisher, Access, and so on...).
So why doesn't Microsoft create their own version of Linux, force the hardware vendors to develop MS-specific drivers for their Linux version? This would, in effect, switch the majority of computing over to Linux in a very short burst, all the while having it under "their" control.
Of course, those of us who know how Linux truly works wouldn't be affected, we could just ignore Redmond (as we are now); but instead of trying to fight it with FUD, they could just absorb it, repackage it, and sell it as a new innovation.
Really? why don't they do this? They'd make money hand over fist, wouldn't they?
35 • RE:#34 (by Hootiegibbon on 2008-08-25 16:18:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think that (iirc) that there would be larger consequences for them if they actually became a producer of a distribution, I seem to remember this being covered in an article (which I can not currently find). From what I remember its the wording of the GPL (especially GPLv3) that would cause them considerable woes ( btw :anyone remember what S Bulmer thought of Linux in 2001 ? no here is a reminder http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_cancer/ )
I hope that I may have jogged someone's memory and perhaps clarify the consequesnce should MS become a distributer of a Linux OS?
36 • gNewSense (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 16:23:47 GMT from Canada)
I fail to understand the point of this yet another distro (gNewSense). If you don't want the proprietary stuff, why not just use Debian? Am I missing something here?
37 • Responding again to many things at once (by Nobody important on 2008-08-25 16:36:39 GMT from United States)
Again, troll feeding is very dangerous. I think our friend fifteen has gotten his fair share. Let it drop and get back to the issues we really need to worry about, like how much Mircosoft stinks.
I am not opposed to Microsoft. While, yes, they do have a beginning of a monopoly on their hands, they do make software that functions (not very well, mind you, but well enough for the average user). At least they try to make a product that people can enjoy, unlike Apple's Mac OS series, which really is made for no one in particular (other than Steve Jobs) and people just happen to like.
I think that a deal with Open-Source and Microsoft is, again, a Good Thing. Firefox made a deal with Microsoft with their integration of Firefox 3.0 into Vista, and that turned out wonderfully. If Microsoft were to allow OpenSUSE to install itself easily parallel to Vista or XP, think of the victory this would symbolize. Not only is this free publicity, but it's opening up the concept of the computer to everyone.
Microsoft is a big company, and while some parts of it dislike Linux (Ballmer) others aren't so judgmental about our favorite hobby. So let's stop Microsoft bashing and just get over it already.
I'd also like to publicly state that neither 28 nor 29 made any sense to me. 28 was responding to sarcasm as if it were stated as real opinion, and 29 was written in a combination of English and nonsense, random letters capitalized and injected into its bloodstream, and then written as a poem for good measure. If you have something to discuss, I implore you, please learn the language (or at the very least, use Google Translation).
38 • @34 (by aautopsy on 2008-08-25 16:57:40 GMT from United States)
Because they wouldn't want to conform with the GPL and theres no way to buy Linux and strip the liscencing.
39 • Re Pastor ED post #34 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 17:03:20 GMT from Canada)
Haven't seen you of late on VectorLinhx forum
Hope all is well
As a devout man- you should apprecicate - it's against "religion"
for Redmond to offer anything FREE
Opps forgot- proprietary viruii browser/default vulnerablities ARE gratis
However they do have insightful code staff:
One remarked (at Vista rollout)
"Cheer up Bill, it could be worse"
BEHOLD it was
> Let there be light - and by G_ _ there was
at least everyone had to avert eyes - or were they just "blinded"
Hmm- lets not forget
There *is* a vast difference 'tween bowing -down
_ and bending over
Microsoft long lost that distinction to market
40 • RE: 37, Is this a joke? (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-08-25 17:11:44 GMT from United States)
"I think that a deal with Open-Source and Microsoft is, again, a Good Thing. Firefox made a deal with Microsoft with their integration of Firefox 3.0 into Vista, and that turned out wonderfully. If Microsoft were to allow OpenSUSE to install itself easily parallel to Vista or XP, think of the victory this would symbolize. Not only is this free publicity, but it's opening up the concept of the computer to everyone."
I hope it is because I've known Microsoft since their first version of dos and I really can't see any good that would come out of an OSS and Microsoft deal or relationship.
41 • PC-BSD (by MacLone on 2008-08-25 17:19:26 GMT from Mexico)
Congrats to PC-BSD devs. they do a truly great distro but you should look for more help. PC-BSD lacks a LOT of software, the repos are almost empty, making this system somewhat useless. Lets see, i need Openoffice but hardly i can get the latest english only version and nothing more. ...Amarok? mplayer? evolution? gnumeric? koffice? translations? and a large large etc...
I know BSD ha no support compared to linux but this problems can kill a distro from the begining.
42 • OMFG (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 17:20:08 GMT from Canada)
Re post # 37
Can 't make *scents* to you
Maybe this does:
Two guys wander into busy bar; while waiting to be served,
one starts to tell a joke about (insert #xxx of choice)
BIG fella sitting nearby -turns all_red_ in_face
and Sez >
"Hold on buster... I am #xxx"
Jokester sizes him up (typical mouthy type? )
then replies "Oh, *Sorry* - but don't worry "
> I'll tell it SLOW
43 • Nobody important (by Hmm? on 2008-08-25 17:23:15 GMT from United States)
@ 40: I can't really see anything bad out of it, either. So why, again, is it such a problem?
Acting like Microsoft is the "Sauron" of Linux is pointless, stupid, and immature. It gets us nowhere, and makes the Linux community look like idiotic zealots.
44 • Aha. (by Nobody important on 2008-08-25 17:26:35 GMT from United States)
moose jump over fence. hugh noon, he says.
Pig eat fence like it hungry
_Linux, he says_
My phone it is ringing lke pig.
>Wait a minute. Poo.
I like typing like it looks like this.
It is quite fun. I shall type like this all the time.
Then _no one_ will understand
45 • RE; #40 is This a joke? (by fstephens on 2008-08-25 17:29:03 GMT from United States)
That's what I meant by "...appeasement or pacts with the Devil rarely turn out well" (comment #31). Any short term gain would surely be mitigated by long term damage as Microsoft used it's influence to "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" - their usual tactic. How many more decades of maleficence does it take to convince people that they simply are not trustworthy? If any one has any doubts of this, please read my poor attempt at presenting a quick overview of the case against Microsoft:
I am sure the are more and better examples, but this will get you thinking.
Remember, Nevil Chamberlain tried to deal with and appease Hitler too. Didn't work.
Sure, there are undoubtedly good people within Microsoft. There were good Nazis too.
OK, maybe overly melodramatic, but I am reading Churchill's "The Gathering Storm" right now. :-)
In any case, I say keep your guard up and stay as far away from Microsoft as possible!
46 • @45 (by ssam on 2008-08-25 17:37:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
goodwins law is hereby invoked.
47 • @45 (by Nobody important on 2008-08-25 17:48:39 GMT from United States)
I sure am getting a workout here.
I'm discussing this article.
Now, there's the idea that Microsoft is "forcing" users to use Windows. This is not true. It is, of course, known that buying many computers gets you Vista, but this is because, well, what else would the companies do? There are millions of people in the world who want only Windows! Whether or not they know any better is YOUR opinion. Simply put, Dell can offer options, but in reality, it's about what the market dictates. People don't want Ubuntu on their computers; that's the end of it for most vendors.
You can whine all you want about how Microsoft is a bad company who does bad things, but at the end of the day, it's made up of people. They work with Novell groups. Big whoopdeedo. Linux has never been in danger from Microsoft and it will never be, no matter how hard some parts of the company want to yell. The company is so big it can't do anything any more. Seen it take down anything with its bare hands lately? Yeah, me neither.
Again, and I quote myself earlier:
Acting like Microsoft is the "Sauron" (or, now, the Satan) of Linux is pointless, stupid, and immature. It gets us nowhere, and makes the Linux community look like idiotic zealots.
We are better off ignoring them or not talking about them, but whining about them doesn't help, and sure doesn't make people who are new to Linux happy. Bottom line: not everyone hates Microsoft; a lot of people are happy with Vista, as odd as that sounds. Those people are being driven away from Linux because people like Fred Stephens want to make up their minds for them, and paint us in a light that looks like a bunch of crying, whining fanboy babies.
48 • Re: 15 !!! (by Bob on 2008-08-25 17:57:32 GMT from Austria)
Ok guys, calm down! He tried to get your blood pressure up and he was apparently successful.
I am a long time Linux user and I am running XP as well (yes, I have deleted Vista). Since I happen to know both worlds, may I politely mention that Linux is no replacement for Windows on the majority of hardware for reasons well known to the majority of knowledgeable readers out there. This is especially true when it comes to most laptops (suspend to ram and never wake up, etc.).
On the other hand Linux has some virtues which are difficult to find on Windows machines, so I suggest to use both (if Linux cares to run on that particular machine). If someone has all the time in the world and rich parents he can try to get along with a sole Linux system, but in real life we need Windows as well.
Not because Windows is so good - the main reason is that there are 1000s of apps out there which will never be ported to Linux, period. If you need some of them you need Windows, it's as simple as that. Yes, I know "Wine" - it is no miracle solution.
Just one example: Bought a pre-N WLAN router and cards for all of my systems more than a year ago. Works better than 100M Ethernet, but only on Windows. If I am lucky Kernel 2.6.27 will finally support 802.11n. So after waiting for about 18 months my Linux system will stop degrading my network by forcing me to run mixed mode.
BSD: Tried it some time ago. Feels slower and older than Linux and will probably never be able to catch up. Started to laugh when installing one of the BSDs and read the message to use a calculator to determine partition sizes - do I need to say more?
Windows crashes, Linux doesn't: Must be a relic from Windows 95 or ME. XP nowadays is as stable as a rock.
Windoze is slower than Linux: They are vaguely comparable, it all depends on configuration and applications. (If you are used to the speed of XP+Excel, you'll need a lot of patience with Linux+OpenOffice for example).
Linux is safer than Windows: This used to be true and is probably still the case. But the bad guys are approaching fast from what I've heard. Linux and its zillions of lines of open source software is not intrinsically safer than Windows. There are just fewer credit cards to find on Linux machines - yet.
Open source is better than proprietary software: Absolutely cannot confirm this, neither on Linux nor on Windows. I am using whatever suits me better. Although I respect the open source community, I also respect developers who choose not to open up their software for whatever reason they might have.
Hope my comments are unbiased enough to keep blood pressures down :-)
49 • Linux v Windows ,questionis, PCBSD, and so on... (by Odones on 2008-08-25 18:22:05 GMT from Portugal)
I'm still a windows a Windows user, yes, it's truth.
I'm still stick with it because after such a long time using, I manage to fix, use, hack, and sometimes clean some stupid things that still happen. Ahhh.. and programs I need to use, are not very easy to find good or working subistitutes for linux (wine still doesn't work with all).
Using linux is my next goal, but I still don't have time to learn some OS linux basics.. so someting happens that I don't manage to fix, intall ou simply configure something in the system.
I think that some people still think that Lnux is only for geeks and are afraid to install, because really doesn't know how to install windows back if they doesn't like it, eheh
I think it wil be always the same... If people like Windows -> just USE IT. Windows is not that bad.
If they want to try other than that: search, CHOOSE, install and USE IT. People, developers from linux (and so on) keep the good work.
About PCBSD, I think I will give a try and install it... I'm a ubuntu and opensuse user .. :)
50 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 18:35:39 GMT from Canada)
Good Nazis - there obviously were many Germanic people who hated the hardline SS factions
But all too many were as the "shocked" good citizens who
*weren't aware* of the ovens at their doorstep
(they were forced to bury the corpses not cremated)
The horrors of WW!! cannot be compared to destructions of M.S. "world-dominance" tactics
One was obvious-(and over) meanwhile, Redmond's casualties continue to mount (users, H/Ware OEM's & fair competition)
However, politics & rampant capitalism makes for strange bedfellows
Will in-fighting of Linux (mostly newBs) fanbois tear apart development ?
NO - they are not the devoted talents driving innovation
Anything we break "upgrading* we can keep
Free - isn't that worth the price of admission ?
Admittedly some bargains cost us in other ways
Freedom has a price
It seems prudent to remind - we have right to full refunds of hard cash paid to FOSS S/Ware
(tips, gratuities ^ brides - all greatfully accepted )
51 • 36 (by Dick Cheney on 2008-08-25 18:48:42 GMT from United States)
There are a few things included with Debian that makes it non-free. That said, Ubuntu is not Debian + some proprietary stuff. I believe they want to make a free version of Ubuntu.
52 • @48 (by serge on 2008-08-25 18:57:55 GMT from Canada)
Hi Bob: Great post:: technically accurate, and cool. Thanks.
53 • Novell's Microsoft allegiance (by MSH on 2008-08-25 19:00:21 GMT from Canada)
Couldn't agree more. There's no way Microsoft can keep a market cap of $250B without sucking the marrow of their users day in, day out. Dealing with Microsoft is accepting Nessus' shirt as a precious gift.
Firefox did not make a deal with Microsoft with their integration of Firefox 3.0 into Vista. Microsoft invited Mozilla developeprs to a Vista compatibility lab. But Microsoft still doesn't conform to W3 Consortium standards and tries to give Firefox having a hard time reading its own "standards".
As for Kris' BSD, if he had such a hard time running Linux, I'd rather not try his stuff.
54 • package management (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 19:16:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
> What is wrong with Ubuntu package updates? Works perfectly.
Hmm - hardly. I recently upgraded from th efirst LTS to the second, finally getting a reasonably modern postgres.
I know what to expect now, but I felt cheated that I was stuck with security fixes to 8.1.x when 8.2.x (and then 8.3) had goodies I wanted. The 'coherent distro' approach can leave you stuck in a timewarp.
(And if you want a reasonably modern mono, well, you'd better be using suse.)
You don't get this effect nearly so much with Windows - once you have XP installed you can largely install new versions of Word, msdev, SQLServer independently *and its a supported combination*. I could have stepped outside of the Ubuntu LTS framework and build postgres myself, but if I want to live outside the framework, I'd just go back to slackware or maybe try gentoo.
There are costs to having shared libraries that are common across a system. PC-BSD is providing a solution, but its not for everyone. But please, don't delude yourself that the distro situation is 'perfect'.
55 • re 51 (Debian proprietary stuff?) (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 19:35:51 GMT from Canada)
This is news to me. Could you give an example? I believe Debian is totally free. Of course you can add proprietary stuff after install. But that's another story. If you choose not to use proprietary stuff you can do it with Debian. So what;'s the point with gNewSense? How is it better than the free Debian?
56 • re:post #15 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 19:39:26 GMT from United States)
I'll stick with Windows, at least I know who to call and shout at when my PC does not work!
Well Jason, you can say that all day long but the real question is do they LISTEN.........I think not!
Sorry guys, had to say it.
57 • freedom and windows re @ 49 (by glyj on 2008-08-25 19:40:05 GMT from France)
we know that suspend to disk / to ram works better under windows than Linux.
Microsoft didn't want that others benefits the work they did on those fonctionnalities, as they said.
Hearing that, I think that we do have to pay the price for fredom : less fonctionnalities, missing programs (like games) etc.
The more we do that the less will it remain true : manufacturers, editors, etc. will develop tools, software, etc. for linux and after for windows.
58 • To mr. M.Fahd Waseem (by Irfan Hussain on 2008-08-25 19:55:39 GMT from Pakistan)
Commendable work! You have made Pakistanis proud!!
Love to talk to you about Linux.
59 • Is Windows a Linux distro? (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 20:04:05 GMT from Switzerland)
If not, posts about Windows are off topic, and Mr Bodnar would be perfectly justified in removing them.
60 • 55 (by Dick Cheney on 2008-08-25 20:10:44 GMT from United States)
I don't recall what is non-free. It's not much, but I read that there is something, don't have time to find it now. Additionally, I forgot to mention that they have the non-free repo.
You can read about the FSF's guidelines on recommended distros here:
Again, I will go back to my point that it is a free Ubuntu, not a free Debian.
61 • Here we go (by Nobody important on 2008-08-25 20:18:44 GMT from United States)
We should track Windows Vista on Distrowatch, and see how well it fares in the world of Linux. I would find that extremely amusing, and it would be nice to have all the reviews together in one place.
And EVERYBODY here wants to read about Windows Vista security updates, right? YAY!
62 • No subject (by houms on 2008-08-25 20:27:04 GMT from United States)
What version of linux are you using?Not sure if I can agree with you. suspend, standby, etc work fine for me... Also I think if you had done your homework, you would know the lack of hardware support is not solely a linux issue. In fact, I believe the linux kernel supports a lot more hardware devices than the ms kernel. Its just that all the manufacturers write there drivers for windows? Is this a fault of the linux based OS? Hell no, in fact you gotta give props where its due. The community has done better with hardware support that microsoft could ever do natively... We are constantly trying to improve hardware support even when not supplied with the specs. now that is funny...
"If someone has all the time in the world and rich parents he can try to get along with a sole Linux system, but in real life we need Windows as well."
i think this is the funniest statement you made which leads me to believe that you really are just ignorant. The majority of linux users are not rich at all, in fact many of the world uses linux because of the cost factor. Alot of use have to get along with a "sole " linux system because we cannot/will not spend money or simply cannot afford the betaware that is vista or any other half ass product microsoft releases.
Not because Windows is so good - the main reason is that there are 1000s of apps out there which will never be ported to Linux, period. If you need some of them you need Windows, it's as simple as that. Yes, I know "Wine" - it is no miracle solution.
I will say my experience using both and why i switched is:
Windows is pound for pound slower than most linux distros. forget openoffice(java), koffice is much faster
Open source is much much better than proprietary software. I respect developers too, but a self-respecting developer knows that open-source is where its at. You have to be at your best, which hopefully reflects on your work, not like half ass proprietary that make you pay to be a beta tester (vista).
XP is not rock solid. I have one here that BSoD every so often.. Something about visorusb.sys. In reference to a palm issue that has been known for years, yet no fix. Too bad I can't go and call microsoft up and tell them that there is an issue that i need patching... lol
Linux is inherently safer due to its design. without going any further just look at the default install of both...
linux, must create user and root(admin)
windows automatic admin created and you must create default user and they are automatically an admin... two admin accounts seems silly no? oh and whats worse, no required password for the newly created admin account.
So no difference in safety here right?
63 • above post @48 (by houms on 2008-08-25 20:28:34 GMT from United States)
my post 62 is for bob @48
64 • RE: Gnuisance (by Pseudonym on 2008-08-25 20:30:56 GMT from United States)
While I admire their tenacity at removing code that doesn't meet their license ideals, wouldn't they and the community at large be better served by working on fully functional 1:1 replacements that meet their ideals? The entire argument (or at least how people approach the subject) alienates people that would be more than willing to help out and abide by the "free" license requirements.
65 • RE post # 48 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 20:33:42 GMT from Canada)
Sorry number 52
Just when I thought Canadians were on a roll
It (#48) was polite, but technically inaccurate:
There is no practical way to tally the vast amount of Linux Apps
that are viable alternates to Windows users
Many are better, as many system-critical businesses have discovered
(by necessity as licenses were crippling profits)
Few have capability to fully *assess* code base
Thereby any reached are flawed (subjective. hasty/unproven)
If any H/ware was not implemented,-it appears -you didn't have the patience
requisitite to *any* user of problematic iron
Do you really believe that does not happen to Windows users ?
BSD- not so absurb - they have a different method to partition,
naming conventions, (overly ?)*concise* measuring of sectors etal
That O/S is slightly hampered by App choices
If you research low-level formatting utilities -
it will be noted, there are many ways to *read* a hard drive
(not just CHS tables)
Linux *is* inherently "safer"
The standards of client server permissions preclude ease of "rooting"
(Try to tell that to advocates of liveCD - meant to run in RAM
that insist on turning it into a full H/DR install)
Ever hear of PAM/shadow/sandbox/chroot *jails*
if paranoid - run hardened dedicated O/systems
Slow - the *biggest* bottleneck lies beteween the chair & keyboard
Server site responces - much blame lies in Web service providers
They often *cripple* bandwidth (also restrict monthly quotas)
Those who do have expensive Full Optical Carriers are under-utilised
ADSL - is worse (piggy-backed wiring/distance to junction carriers)
Think of it as newer cell devices- not worth a fiddlers-
if repeaters are lacking, placed inadvantageous to client
You were spot-on RE the M.S. troll - he must be ROFLMAO by now
NTIM - I had the same thought about Kris' Linux adversity
Static libraries *could* have been implemented - likely more readily
- on Linux vs BSD
RPM & derivatives are not the most co-operative Pkgeing alternative
Now if serious - build your own distro - it is feasible
Then (respectfully) assess where the culprit (really) most oft lies
@##!! I stubbed toe whilst_dismounting soap-box
(Which ya gotta admit - it's hard to do when it's in mouth)
66 • re 64 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 20:37:18 GMT from Canada)
Yes there are replacements for proprietary stuff. For example: instead of mp3 there is ogg. But what can you do if people prefer the crappy mp3 to the much better ogg? If you remove mp3 support people will complain, will say that Windows is better.
67 • MSWindows and Linux Desktops (by Soloact on 2008-08-25 21:32:12 GMT from United States)
Some say Linux isn't ready for the desktop, but I find it works well for me, especially when MSXP crashes. As far as MSXP is concerned, it has been wiped from its' multiboot partition, on all of my computers. If a friend calls and has questions on how to do this or that in MSWindows, and I need to access it so I can follow step-by-step, I boot up MSXP on VirtualBox. I'm an end-user, so if I can do this successfully, then I believe that almost anyone can. I say "almost" because there are the token few....(see #15).
Just recently introduced a friend to Linux, and he now has it on his business computer, also with MSXP shoved into VirtualBox. He's moving his business from MS to Linux, from QuickBooks to Gnucash, MSOffice to OpenOffice, etc. He only needs the MSXP in VirtualBox for that one bit of software that is specific to the business, that doesn't have a Linux version, yet.
IMHO, if one doesn't like the choice of Distros, they can either make one that fulfills their needs and likes, or even hybrid a couple of Distros together, or use virtual computing.
Yes, Linux is more than ready for the desktop (this is for the scoffers).
68 • MS Linux (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 21:59:17 GMT from Spain)
It is a good idea :) Maybe Microsoft should name their (if they develop one) Linux distro "Sauronix" he he.
69 • MS Linux2 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 22:01:45 GMT from Spain)
It is a good idea :) Maybe Microsoft should name their (if they develop one) Linux distro "Sauronix" he he.
And then Suse would be the "Sarumanix"?
70 • @15''Who ya gonna call? (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 22:22:06 GMT from Australia)
"I'll stick with Windows, at least I know who to call and shout at when my PC does not work!"
If Windows is so good for you then what are you doing here. Anyway when your Windows OS has problems, WHO YA GONNA CALL?
71 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 22:48:43 GMT from Canada)
Now we have a Christian Ubuntu, the Muslim Ubuntu was not enough for God's sake!
Now the Muslim Ubuntu users will bomb the Christian Ubuntu users and the Christian Ubuntu users will machine gun Muslim Ubuntu users indiscriminately.
What the Hell has religion anything to do with technology?
72 • @ post 71 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-25 23:34:52 GMT from Canada)
Being neither a devout Zionist, nor a Mujahideen "saviour"
~ words from this un-bathed heathen may fall on deaf ears:
FWIW -When any overly zealous fan *of any hobby* gets too fanatic -
Their obsession may be likened to a belief so strong...
It takes on the aspects of a "religion"
(Pilgrimage to *Grace-land* - elitist *neander W/worker)
So Irrespective of :
Albert E. was noted for quoting:
"God does not roll dice" _geesh, was he wrong
Snake-eyes keep resurrecting allah-thyme
Seems *enshrining_in_stone* - just don't cut it
Words of caution:
Never pubicly talk religion
(Exception - even the strongest atheist > gets instantly "converted"
~ when wife overhears you talking out loud to friends about old girl friends)
Try it - then speak again of new respect for "OH....hell"
(just had a thought - "neander" refers to cordless (most often called
Wonder if them there "tools" were tail-less -cuz of above ?
73 • Trolls (by TrollHunter on 2008-08-26 00:33:15 GMT from Australia)
I'm surprised that so many people were feeding this troll, make it big and strong and no doubt happy with itself.
To restore balance to the universe, I'll post a "Windows suxx0rs cause Linux = teh win" thread on a Windows forum.
74 • @ 66 (by Pseudonym on 2008-08-26 00:33:59 GMT from United States)
You are confusing two issues, multimedia codecs aren't included in most "free" distributions due to the silly patent laws of the USA, I am talking about the removal of firmware which is licensed in a manner that is legal to distribute but not including source _and_ software that is licensed in what someone has arbitrarily declared to be non-free.
That being said, kindly point out the free 1:1 replacement for GLX or the free 1:1 replacements for firmware being removed from the kernel or point out where these individuals have put forth the effort to convince the hardware vendors to release source for their firmware or tried to convince SGI to relicense GLX.
75 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-26 00:49:54 GMT from Canada)
Troll or not - undecided windows escapees, might be persuaded
(restrained) well argued strengths of Linux
Senseless taunts either get juices flowing, or drive away rational
To promulgate arbitrary censorship would be self-defeating :
Walk a mile in another's shoes
(if still unconvinced - you will be a mile away
wink - and have his shoes )
76 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-26 01:04:42 GMT from United States)
It's nice to see some credit for NetBSD.
77 • No subject (by Eric Yeoh on 2008-08-26 02:59:14 GMT from Malaysia)
@71, Live with it, religion has been around since humans could think for itself. If you have problems with people creating distros that focuses on their professed faiths I think you are missing the point, everyone has a right to profess their faith. Also be mindful of how you speak of the religion of others. How well do you know Islam? How well-versed are you with Christian doctrines? If you don't like UbuntuME or CE, don't use them. Simple, no?
As far as MS Windows is concerned, all is well and fine if you guys read and write in one of the many European languages. I read and write some of my stuff in Chinese/Japanese/Korean. I have customers who need to use one of those pad and stylus devices to enter text in CJK; at this moment there is no Linux support for those devices.
People really don't care about OS. It is not meant to be user-aware, but only a platform to enable software to run. They just want Windows because the software they want runs on it.
Gaming for one is always a losing point for Linux, though Darwinia is pretty sweet!
I have been a Linux user for many years and until like 6 months ago I finally decided to go Windows free as Linux has matured to the point that I can practically do all I want with it.
Most of the Linux people I come across are not zealots and realise the need to work with Windows. That is why stuff like Samba and OpenOffice.org are so sweet.
So sorry for the long post and keep up the good work Ladislav! Also, people, FOSS people are generally intelligent people. Gutter talk should not be the norm if we want to promote FOSS.
78 • MS and Nazis (by Serenitude on 2008-08-26 03:37:58 GMT from United States)
Comparing Microsoft's exploits of the last 30 years v. the horrors wrought upon the world by the Nazis is just so absurd I can't think of words to describe it's stupidity.
And this from someone who has been Windows free for years, and is now downloading gNewSense.
Come on. Microsoft sucks, and does nasty things, but these comparisons *have* to stop. Godwin's Law, indeed ;-)
79 • No subject (by noyb on 2008-08-26 04:20:34 GMT from Canada)
Looking forward to the new PC-BSD, and I hope it is indeed a large improvement over previous releases in terms of hardware support. I've got FreeBSD 7 on a Thinkpad now and it's not too bad, other than having no sound or wireless at the moment (understandable for a server OS I suppose).
I hope for the success of BSD on the desktop because I am becoming disenchanted with the bubbling tar pit that is linux development.
And I also grow weary of the endless crap-flinging and posturing by the most vocal trolls in the linux community, which itself never seems to run out of these fool wankers who continue to regurgitate the same talking points over and over as if producing some divine insight that we have none of us ever read before - and this forum is, quite typically, not immune to those.
So I'm silently cheering on the efforts of both PC and Desktop BSD. I need a quiet sit down in the cathedral.
80 • AntiX (Mepis) - "anticapitalista" (by Verndog on 2008-08-26 05:35:26 GMT from United States)
I downloaded AntiX because I have an old laptop that the cdrom doesn't work. I used the livecd on my desktop to check it out. I came aceoss an interesting bookmark built into the browser called "anticapitalista". It is a total left-wing propaganda. I'm very much right-wing, conseritive, I don't argue or discuss politics, but somehow I found this bookmark a telling insight into this lightweight distro. I wondered how AntiX got its name , and I'm afraid I stumbled across the answer by accident. The disto looks and feels quite fast, but I'm skeptical on supporting it, if it's political in nature.
81 • RE: 80 • AntiX (Mepis) - "anticapitalista" (by ladislav on 2008-08-26 05:42:17 GMT from Taiwan)
It's just a nickname of the guy who created antiX, that's all. Maybe he can tell you more - he is quite active on this forum.
82 • RE: 80 (by Crikey McCrackensitchee on 2008-08-26 06:27:17 GMT from Australia)
Verndog wrote: "..The disto (sic) looks and feels quite fast, but I'm skeptical on supporting it, if it's political in nature"
Isn't Linux political in nature anyway? The politics of freedom of choice!
83 • PC-BSD (by Landor on 2008-08-26 06:51:39 GMT from Canada)
Great interview regarding PC-BSD. I do with these things became a bit more on the technical side though....It seems like most people do interviews about this sort of thing. Digging deeper would be very nice for a change.
Aside from that....I have to say PC-BSD is one of the "very few" shining stars of our community at present. With the ports system, backing up PBI, they have a real winner. Sadly, most don't want to work for something that others did, so want easily integrated packages and won't go pull in anything from ports out of sheer...lets say apathy :)
The others I find exciting are Absolute and AntiX, great distros. Constantly on the move and being innovative while still trying to retain their small resource footprint. Simplux is the other distro. A Puppy remaster with Gentoo's Portage for package management.
I see a new release with a new kernel, some updated packages, and maybe some artwork, and I yawn. Not to be negative towards any developers, but for the most part the shine's a bit dull for the majority.As many once said, the year of the small distro...I don't think small distros were bound by just a year of fame, not by far.
I used BSD for some time and I've been playing with the PC-BSD Alpha's for some time and the next release is going to launch the BSD variant into a huge spotlight IMHO.
Keep your stick on the ice,,,
84 • Re: 80 • AntiX (Mepis) - "anticapitalista" (by anticapitalista on 2008-08-26 07:07:01 GMT from Greece)
antiX is the name of the distro that is a mixture of sounding like antiques, antics and short for anticapitalista's X (antisX sounds like the Moral Majority!)
My nickname was deliberately chosen as a Left-wing name, for those interested, coming mainly influenced by the demonstations against the G8 in Genoa 2001, in which I participated.
I am relatively active in Left-wing politics, and feel no shame in saying so, nor feel any guilt in adding a bookmark to various Left-wing blogs, magazines ec (some of which are pretty well-repected even by their political opponents eg Chomsky, Democracy Now!) in a distro I develop.
I'm sure the vast majority of antiX users do not share my political beliefs and have simply deleted the link if they don't like it, or if they did get offended like
Verndog have moved onto something else.
It is your choice.
85 • @post #83 -Landor (by Anonymous on 2008-08-26 08:46:43 GMT from Canada)
While most of your thoughts Re lack of newness save for the
mininanalist variants are correct
It was surprising (hasty perhaps ?) to advocate Gentoo-ised Puppy concept
You of all people (Gentoo background ) should be aware -
Puppy is a default root system, lacking standards of client/server
permission Cfg's & utilities
Has Simplux reconfigured Puppy to accomodate *proper* server/clent standards (what about reliance on cludged "Puppy-ised Bash CLI ? )
IF it's used as original concept (liveCD in Ram) persistent home folder,
there is little to worry about - run as a full hard drive install is outright foolishness.
Puppy was designed as a tinkerer's toy (bork - just don't use saves,
user is back to pristine)
OTOH - try to re-Cfg as a user mode- good luck - it will soon be
apparent how quick'n dirty *-fixes* of the "user contributions" have hampered consistency of development (Plse research BK's Dev site)
Adding Gentoo's Portage - think overhead in what ostensibly was
a light weight (hobby) project
As you well know -Portage is Python based- hardly small nor simple
As for consistency/stabilty of progress - Plse note the on-going
rants RE Barry's posted retirement (J.Murga's Puppy forum )
(bug tracking threads will either amuse or....)
It seems fair to assess - the ulitimate paradigm of weirdness is the miss-match combining the complexities of highly formalized Gentoo structures (sources based) with ad-hoc Puppy
86 • RE:75, I like that. (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-08-26 12:08:02 GMT from United States)
"Walk a mile in another's shoes
(if still unconvinced - you will be a mile away
wink - and have his shoes )"
I like that, lol.
87 • Speaking of Nazis (by FeeWaybill on 2008-08-26 13:06:14 GMT from United States)
The Ministry of Censorship on the Puppy Linux Forum is up to its old tricks.
88 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-26 16:39:19 GMT from Canada)
Actually the links to Bill Gates father , Microsoft , IBM and the Nazi war machine are quite obvious witha little research
"Dont shatter the illusion"
89 • Hi 62 and 65 (by Bob on 2008-08-26 18:51:05 GMT from Austria)
Thanks for your comments. They were within expectations, which means while I believe in peaceful coexistence between Windows and Linux you guys seem to belong to the purely MS bashing fraction. I am certain that I am unable to explain to you that there are really millions of people out there who still need Windows for various reasons. Linux is good but definitely no miracle solution for everything.
I gladly withdraw my comment about rich parents (It was not meant to be understood literally anyway). But experience shows that Linux takes more of my time than Windows, mostly because of hardware issues. Talking about hardware: learning from post #62 that Linux offers better hardware support than Windows was quite amusing. All computers I was ever interested in had a working Windows version preinstalled, but just a few of them were able to run Linux flawlessly.
About security: you guys completely misunderstood. I'm not talking about root, etc. here - I am just try to warn you that not everyone in this world is as nice as most readers here are. As an example think of a cool package or a Firefox plug-in on a Linux box: Even if you and I would not install it, others might be tempted - that's how credit card numbers get volatile. If you are in doubt consult some Linux specialists: just ask Linux Mint what happened to their server recently. You might want to remember this post in a year or so. Open source will not be able to fully protect you as long as the source code is massive enough to hide malware in it. Or do you happen to read all source code of the 20000+ Linux packages on a regular basis?
Now about open source: it is ridiculous to tell people that it is always better than proprietary. It isalways the programmer who counts not the software license. If you have never encountered issues with open source software, you have probably not tried a lot of it. But for the sake of balance I do acknowledge that there is crappy proprietary software around too.
About stability: I can honestly tell you that besides two or three IE crashes WinXP never gave me problems during the past years. I do not even know how the famous BSoD nowadays looks. I need XP for work so I might have less junk installed than most people. In order to calm down the blood thirsty amongst you: Tried once to move from XP to XP-64 on a Core 2 Duo notebook. XP-64 refused to install without info - simply stopped responding ...
I guess I also better stop responding here. Unbiased comments are not too welcome in this place, so we won't get any conclusions anyway.
90 • 89 (by Dick Cheney on 2008-08-26 19:31:01 GMT from United States)
"Talking about hardware: learning from post #62 that Linux offers better hardware support than Windows was quite amusing. All computers I was ever interested in had a working Windows version preinstalled, but just a few of them were able to run Linux flawlessly."
I understand where you are coming from, but disagree. Your comparison is not very informative. You would have to compare preinstalled Linux against preinstalled Windows. In either case, all hardware will obviously work, because it's set up to work.
The real question is which offers better support for devices that you add to your system. With a few exceptions, Linux is better. With Linux it tends to be 'plug it in and use it'. A few companies like Broadcom intentionally work against Linux, but that is much less common today than in the past, and in two years will be even less common. I mess with driver disks in Windows and still have trouble.
For the vast majority of hardware, which is to say that which Linux supports, Linux is much easier. Plug in the printer and use it vs. plug in the printer and figure out how to get it working. And if you compare to Vista, Linux supports more devices as well.
"About stability: I can honestly tell you that besides two or three IE crashes WinXP never gave me problems during the past years."
I would have agreed with you until maybe six months ago. I've seen two computers with heavy loads for which XP does regularly crash. It is far better than previous versions under a normal load. 98 would crash before it even finished booting.
"I do not even know how the famous BSoD nowadays looks."
You must not have been watching the Olympics. My guess is that this is related to the "heavy vs. normal" load I mentioned above.
91 • @89 Bob (by Anonymous on 2008-08-26 20:15:26 GMT from Canada)
Heck don't depart - if a person were *not* biased,
they would be eternally ambivalent (incapable of decisions)
If you noticed I (poster 65) did not trash Windows
No point- I know it's inherent vulnerabilities
About the useage of untrusted links:
I have long warned Linux is not immune to embedded graphical malware
WHY do eager MM users seatch out/install all plug-ins they can find
as one of first tasks after an install ? -
No single person has the time, let alone the ability to examine all code
It does help to keep abreast of (dedicated) security site notifications
There are many- one is:
Agreed it is ludicrous to make blanket assertions that ALL proprietary S/W is better
Did I (hardly)
Stabilty - or lack of -is often the results of user errors
(E.G. constant *upgrading* when no proven need exists)
H/Ware incompatibilty - may be potluck on any platform
But to state blanket generalisations is also open to question
*Much* is dependent on experience of user
However, under OSS - the *user* has capability of total control of S/Ware
Esp w/aid of research enhanced via enlightened sources
There are few Documentation resources as extensive as Gentoo (for one example)
All takes user effort - if incapable or time constrained, spoon -fed may be the only recourse
May I respectfully suggest you take care prior to assuming conclusions
It's a truism - often it's a poor craftsman that first blames his tools
Rule of thumb - pick carefully, learn to master commensurate w/ambitions
92 • RE: 84 & 85 (by Landor on 2008-08-26 20:16:31 GMT from Canada)
I'm a major proponent of a Left Wing Psyche and agree that there's nothing to apologize for. Most countries, including one of the world's largest, if not in total size was based upon such an activity against England, but many seem to forget that. The established order seldom remembers when at one time they opposed the same. I don't know what your affiliations hold, but similar to BLAG, I find nothing wrong with including the bookmarks to a different point of view. We have Pro-White, Muslim, Christian, and even Buddhism based distros, which of course are all based on a belief system, shall we say, a philosophy on life. No different(but not just that) from a political philosophy.
Linux is a great medium, and such a medium allows us the freedom, and maybe a freedom many wish they did have opposed to their current conditions so to speak, in life.
I remember at one time you enjoyed Puppy, or so I believed :)
Yes, there are some flaws. A lot of the issues involved with building Simplux that you noted are only...hmm..lol "Collared" to Puppy :) There's a lot more going on with the distro, and although you may have ( wondered) if it was hasty, I disagree. I had been thinking along these lines myself for close to a year, with Puppy and DSL. I considered the idea of Simplux doing such a thing as exciting purely for the innovative thought alone. A major reason why the smaller distros shine a bit brighter than the mainstream ones. They're tied to nothing really, and able to make radical changes where other legacy/"current" mainstream distros, are set to a certain agenda.
When the hands are not tied, you can almost always find the person making use of them. Even if in the long run it's not beneficial, or is, there's always use of them :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
93 • @89 (by houms on 2008-08-26 20:23:46 GMT from United States)
For the record I'm not bashing MS, I just want to let you see another point of view.
I cannot tell you how infuriating it is when I hear nonsense like this..
you make the point yourself. but since you seem like you don't get it let me explain.
If you have ever done a windows install, assuming by your response , that is unlikely. you would know that window doesn't work with most of any standard hardware, if the manufacturer does not write and provide the drivers for it...Most people who have experience will tell you when you install windows, just as if you were installing linux, there is a plethora of hardware that it does not support or sometimes even recognize until you provide drivers for it that were written by a third party. The linux kernel far outpaces the mskernel when it comes to hardware detection. Its only with the support of countless third party drivers that windows is actually able to overtake linux in this feat... So how can windows support more hardware.... amusing isn't it?
"gladly withdraw my statement"
one would hope that you would stop yourself before you even make such ignorant comments.
security?are you serious? you mean to tell me that a plugin for mozilla, or a package for a debian repo, is more of a security threat then the countless number of exe's running around on the net...
Lets be serious, the real security threat is always the user... bad behavior is what is to blame... Linux just does a much better job of protecting the user from themselves.
Whens the last time you looked at any code let alone code from a proprietary app.Oh, sorry that's right, you don't have the CHOICE to look at it. So what do you know about the prop. apps your using?
"fore the sake of balance", lol it should be for the sake of calling ish the way it is....
lets not even get into apps , but just look at entire OS'es that are proprietary...
there are tons of beta apps that cost and are proprietary. Don't do me any favors by admitting that. The majority of programmers would agree that code is better when it is designed out of desire..Open source is all about the want, the need. Thats what makes developing in that arena far better. The pressure to outdo each other and innovate. Let people see the code and make it better.
"there are really millions of people out there who still need Windows for various reasons"
Actually a major reason is that MS has done a great job of locking people in. they need it because they have no CHOICE.
"about XP stability" okay you should mark this post as well for next year. wait until the explorer.exe not starting up during login issue catches up to you and then tell me about how rock solid stable xp is. This being a known MS issue, and the only "fix" MS has released on their Knowledge base is to "reinstall XP". WTF?
I could keep going on about countless other XP issues but I'm sure the DW'ers would rather read something a little more interesting.
Yeah it would be in your best interest to stop responding with such nonsense... And your opinion is far from unbiased, just like anyone's opinion. that's why its called "opinion"
"I don't even know what a BSoD looks like nowadys"
Just like the windows OS, Not much has changed.
94 • @ 92 - Landor (by Anonymous on 2008-08-26 21:01:57 GMT from Canada)
We exchanged mail some months ago (you concluded Re the use of "shticking it" charade )
I assessed Puppy - for much the same (tmp) aspirations -found it wanting
Better to build from scratch (T2/LFS/bare-bones anything)
In the end , concluded - I am addicted to FULL compile utiilities
NOT blase use of ldd as only means of dependency tracking *after the fact*
Ever wonder - do are any of these wannaB hackers aware of (execution event) tracing of code ?
E.G Fuser/Itrace etal - or read such as (Condional flow control)
~ Make use of rkhunter - ccache/compiler optimizations
Even - judicious use of *stripping* of non-essential shared dependencies
I totally forgot it was puppy user Leachim
that was obsessed w/shaky amalgam of Portage/BK's *revamped* personal Bash alternatives
NTIM I saw no ovewheming need to script so many bash CLI alternate snippets -then make them executables ?
Bash is extremely capable - when not (IDE development) perhaps time for Python
All of which predicates cumbersome development Apps/utilities
That should either intrigue potential Windows escapees -
or re-enforce Eeek a geek finger gestures
Who R E A L L Y cares - or has the moral authority to pass judgement
(Hows that for skirting the blue line ?)
95 • Re 15 (by poindexter on 2008-08-26 21:38:55 GMT from Australia)
Found in APC magazine forum:
Personally, I'm happy to see Windows get equal time in Distrowatch. It isn't quite ready for the desktop yet - but XP was close. I would never use it myself (too insecure and unstable), but I like to see competition and am happy that other people make the effort to master its archaic interface, poor resource use and lack of proper support. I'm sure it will improve in time.
We should not damn MS for one stuff-up. There were many others before Vista and I'm pretty sure there's more coming. And "standards" is such a rigid concept. Why should they care about "standards"?
Let's give Windows a break and stop hassling its adherents.
96 • RE: 92 Landor and politics. (by anticapitalista on 2008-08-26 21:45:30 GMT from Greece)
I agree, though I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and accept White Supremicist, fascist or racist distros.
Anyhow a clue to partly what antiX is about is in the release name.
Spartacus, Lysistrata, VETËVENDOSJE! and the most recent Toussaint Louverture.
I hope that at a minimum it helps to make people broaden their horizons a bit to see an alternative world view whether they agree with that viewpoint or not.
97 • @93 (by Nobody important on 2008-08-26 23:26:58 GMT from United States)
Quote: "Actually a major reason is that MS has done a great job of locking people in. they need it because they have no CHOICE."
You confuse yourself. Microsoft can do nothing about locking us in; we can install Linux all we want.
The mass market simply doesn't CARE. That, my friend, is not Microsoft's fault. That is the end user's.
The market wants Windows on its machines (that, or they buy a Mac, which is still a minority). That's what has been making money so far; and you wonder why it hasn't changed! Not enough consumers have complained about it, so Vista stays on every pre-made machine.
98 • @97 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-27 00:42:55 GMT from Canada)
Rather a simplistic assessment - if only it were true (partially true - perhaps )!
Microsoft had/has long-standing licensing agreements locked in w/hardware suppliers via strongarm tactics when Linux did not exist
Next, never underestimate the power of false advertising
M/S often *announced* releases of shadows to keep users from
The *mass market* is simply unaware of behind scenes illegalities/manipulations
Who can be certain of *what* the mass market may do
Fortunes are made/lost every day on that assessment
An example of false drivig forces- is the speculation factor in energy pricing
If you think we are privvy to all factors - what part of the world
do you reside ?
Plse consider the time lines & full history of the personal computer
IBM was out-manuevered by a snotty-nosed novice & buddies
simply via the fact noone foresaw the full home market potential
(OS2 then Warpv3 was technically supperior to both Apple & Win
at the time)
It was in turn sabotaged by paid Redmond employees
(they inserted floppies to crach OS2 @ trade shows
~ Reason - IBM had market campaign boasting of *stability*
This was when Win_3 was in infancy - *relied on* coperative release of shared mem ( not true multi-tasking
Which IBM OS2 did have
READ the history
Linux is relative new-comer
99 • Mepis 8.0 beta (by todders on 2008-08-27 07:55:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
Dear all just a quick note to let you know that mepis 8.0 beat version has just been released it is available from http://www.mepis.org/mirrors.
100 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-27 11:28:01 GMT from Canada)
"measly releases notes"
101 • @97 (by houms on 2008-08-27 13:28:18 GMT from United States)
"You confuse yourself. Microsoft can do nothing about locking us in; we can install Linux all we want. "
That is a very naive outlook, I was going to go off on a tirade, but not really worth it.
I will let it stand at I disagree. plus @98 does a pretty good job explaining.
102 • @ 98 (and 101 to a certain degree) (by Nobody important on 2008-08-27 14:41:13 GMT from United States)
I suffered through your epic poem of sorts and compared it to the history of the PC. Simply put, I'm not convinced.
Microsoft did charge a so-called "MS Tax" for companies that sold computers without operating systems, sure. But - here's the kicker - if Microsoft is as bad as it should be, then why are they still being supported? Why ISN'T Linux replacing Windows? It's better in almost every way! It's like saying a free cookie is being beaten by a hundred dollar cookie!
Here's an example. My tech-newb mother complains constantly about the slowdown of IE7. I installed Firefox on the computer and put it right next to the IE7 icon. Every time she complains, I tell her, "use the other one." But she doesn't. She stays with that thing, even though it can't run on our old computer very well. I could put Ubuntu on that computer and her problems with everything would vanish, but she doesn't want to. Why?
Because a large majority of computer users know Windows. They understand it enough to use the internet, and to type emails and documents. Past that, it doesn't really matter. Performance matters very little, as long as they can stay inside their little bubble. Computer = microwave. The idea and usefulness is the same.
I wish right now every vendor would just throw Vista to the wind (and what's stopping them from dropping it entirely?), but that's simply not possible. I don't like everything Microsoft's done, but I support some of it, at least. From my experience (which is SP2 and higher) Windows XP wasn't that bad of an OS, at least, in its later years. I'm looking for better, though, that's why I'm on a Linux site. ;)
@MEPIS beta: Awesome. I'm looking forward to the full release.
103 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-27 15:28:38 GMT from Canada)
Resorting to personality taunts now ?
Why bother *suffering* (in an effort to convince anyone - you have a more *balenced* practical opinion) ?
It was convenient you mentioned WE (collectively) can always install Linux -
Whereas - many users are nervous/even incapable of installing any O/S
But then - why would they M
Most bought from retailers - come w/Win_xx pre-installed (want it or not)
What is stopping vendors -
The market-base is established - they go w/ the flow ($$$)
Not much profits to free OSS
Those that ARE free to chose that is -
Redmond still uses market position to leverage hardware Mfgs.
suppliers as well as 3rd party App development companies
(Tnose they have not bought out that is)
The MS claws into computerdom extends deep indeed
The U.S. DOJ doesn't even scare them
Why would it - w/*asscociates* like the RIAA & well heeled
lobbiests - (gee wonder how they are funded)
To re-iterate the Microsoft products are not ALL bad -
that cannot be said of *CORPORATE Redmond hierarchy
Ya sees - We are discussing the a worst part of uncomntrolled capitalism her (there are honest businesses I think ? )
Not moral buying habits of computer users
(irrespective of inability to "install" own software - like your dear old mother)
Bless her - I think we all have relatives/freinds of the same type
WE luv em - but lordy - will they ever.....
104 • @102 (by houms on 2008-08-27 15:55:21 GMT from United States)
excuse me for the lack of cohesiveness but here goes
saddens me to say it but the majority in the US, looks at it this way. almost drone like in nature... We just do what the next person is doing. your right windows is all people know. But excusing their willingness to learn something new is laughable. This is definitely a bigger problem with the older population. i have the same problem with my mom. refuses to change OS'es let alone browsers.. Even though she sees my 8yr old brother running sidux(i setup for him) with ease, while she is still dealing with "unexplained behavior". But you have to force people to change kinda like MS forces people to stay in the "bubble". So my answer was to remove IE. If she cant access it she is forced to use the "other" one... its funny what people will do when they have no CHOICE.
I find it funny when people complain about something, but continue to function within that same paradigm.
in terms of OSS, especially when people find out that the alternative is free.. Not sure if you have had the discussion with your mom, but I know a hell of a lot of windows users who are very unhappy to find out that they paid for vista when there are free alternatives out there. Same with MS office vs openoffice...
as you mentioned the majority of people use email internet and documents, the majority of drones-i mean people- could get all that for free... But what would that result in... MS not getting paid, and PC manufacturers not getting any additional kickbacks from MS for using their OS... Now that would be a win for consumers but the corporations aren't gonna do that. Hell even when dell was offering ubuntu, they were charging the same for systems regardless of OS and sometimes even more for ubuntu...
why is MS being supported??? are you serious? its like saying why is gw bush supported.... because money is the sole controller. MS is going to make sure to stop any conflicting interests. like an open platform that could potentially free the world of this IP BS...
Never mind that windows , yes even XP is not a stable operating system. Nevermind that there are countless bugs and "unexplained behavior". nevermind that pc manufacturers will continue to load their systems with this crap because thats who feeds them. They could care less about making the consumer happy or productive, they just want you to buy stuff, so if its MS shista than so be it...
all windows users are familiar with the error report box, but they are so used to it that to them this is not an issue, its part of the feature-set...lol...you teach a monkey how to click a mouse and they will click at anything,. in all seriousness, its lazy, non-innovative thought process that people have become very accustomed to.
105 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-27 16:01:25 GMT from Canada)
Aha Xpsp2 and beyond explains many things
You have much to learn grasshopper
World economies/politics/market ethos , maybe even time for history
Kinda shaky on the personal experience there BTW
Computers- well there you have FAR to travel
Tell us again when you have proof of what constitutes "majority*-
other than personal clinging to assumptions of facts
Expressed anther way - you are still tire-kicking Linux offerings
How valild would your reccomendations be IF any
potential Windows refugee cared to heed
Just how much do you truly know of Linux (kernel ONLY)
and OSS - in "market majority* of variations
BTW how did *mom* get Windows - she install it by choice ?
106 • at 102 (by Windows and Linux user on 2008-08-27 17:16:40 GMT from Italy)
Linux isn't replacing Windows because the user can't use linux the same way he uses Windows. The way of using the two os is different.
On the contrary, the way of using a Mac OS X is very similar to the way of using a Windows system, at least regarding the installation and the upgrade of applications and drivers, that is the principal thing that Windows's users want to do in an os.
107 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-27 17:38:55 GMT from United States)
"Linux isn't replacing Windows because the user can't use linux the same way he uses Windows. The way of using the two os is different.
On the contrary, the way of using a Mac OS X is very similar to the way of using a Windows system, at least regarding the installation and the upgrade of applications and drivers, that is the principal thing that Windows's users want to do in an os.."
how can they not use linux? if linux were perinstalled and ready out of the box like ms and osx, whats so different that would prevent a user from using linux?
you mean they want the OS ready right? did you forget that users do not install windows or osx? its preinstalled so all that nonsense about installation and upgrade is just BS.
I'm sure some would make the point that ms and osx are not the "same" either....
108 • Stolen SSH Keys (by Anonymous on 2008-08-27 18:02:35 GMT from United States)
The United States Computer Emergency Readiness Team (US-CERT) is warning Linux users that they are being actively targeted by attackers using stolen SSH keys.
Secure Shell keys lock down communication between two networked
devices. They are often used for remote authentication.
109 • @106 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-27 18:08:14 GMT from Canada)
Is that so - based on what crystal ball consultations ?
If checked AFAIK - (Linux-kernel based ) DISTRO variations have already surpplanted Approx 80% of world server use
How can anyon know for anay certainty just what the true numbers of users (or how they use any) are ?
Are you privvy to some magic world/wide statistics consultancy ?
It is not widely acknowledged nor bandied about in plebian populist
software sites -
HOME use of computers is but a drop in the bucket to $value of corporate/Gvt/cutting-edge research useage
Aside: (much the same as fossil fuel use - eleminate ALL personal vehicles world -wide
It's still a small percentage in comparison to crucial military/ocean shipping/sythetics Mfg.
(that list is near endless - w/out oil reserves - it will not be travel
that is most lacking.)
How then can anybody presume to speak for the majority FFS
YOUR own uses may be odd
(GUI environments are the vogue - regardless of platform)
Put another way Linux, ( the kernel) - used in conjunction to tools (so *any* usefull event will occur)
Was never intended to replace anything -=
Except unaffordable proprietary Unix for university students
It just happened (curtesy of millions of user hrs of contributors)
Hard to fathom for some maybe, but - gasp ...not *all* users listen to streaming media/play games/chat on-line.
They might I.E. (BTW thats not the acronym for *Internet Explorer*) use their O/system of choice *regardless of type* for seeking knowledge resources
OTOH who would *argue they cannot use any GUI platform in
very similar manner
In essence - (Linux) *Distribuitions* - have come an astounding way in ease of installation & use in a very short time span
A pity .... "dabblers* do not share desire to keep pace of events
110 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-08-28 13:16:22 GMT from Canada)
Rolling releases - just update the iso they said
not going to rebase of mandriva anymore they said
pclinuxos is dead they said
(but Texstar lives on)
how do we know they are dead
Even mepis are going to releases this year
111 • Linpus.com down (by Ariszló on 2008-08-28 20:03:42 GMT from Hungary)
http://www.linpus.com/ has been down for a couple of day. Does anybody know why?
112 • 106 (by Dick Cheney on 2008-08-28 20:56:47 GMT from United States)
"On the contrary, the way of using a Mac OS X is very similar to the way of using a Windows system, at least regarding the installation and the upgrade of applications and drivers"
That doesn't make sense - you're arguing that nobody wants to use Linux because it's different, even though much easier and more convenient?
113 • RE: 111 Linpus.com down (by ladislav on 2008-08-28 23:48:51 GMT from Taiwan)
Curiously, their FTP server is up and running:
Usually, it's the other way around...
114 • @ 112 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-29 01:40:31 GMT from Canada)
Oddly - that *is* one of the normal situations:
People are hesitant to consider an unknown
The "convenience" comes after finding out in some manner
Unknown because if you ask at most computer retailers, you often get just a blank look
Few stock any distribution, the greater precentage is available only
as a download
How many outlets has anyone wandered into - where some computers come with Linux pre-installed ?
Fewer still offer products without any O/system
The concept is akin to purchasing a car piece-meal
(body here, engine there - you get the idea)
Sheer number of distributions compound confusion (enter DW)
It is much easier now to install Linux -
however, it is more of a DIY oriented hobby
The majority of new Linux devotees still come from disgruntled Windows users
Often - we can *guess* those users wondered "what is this *Linux thing* I keep seeing while surfing" ?
They then may ask friends relatives - where answers vary widely
Purchases of anything are ovewhelmingly a responce to known
(blindly trusted *name* ) products
It's human nature:
I would bet - many here have experienced trying to "quick-sell"
some item at a ridiculously low price > few takers
(they are suspicious) ?
Advertise it at an inflated price - buyers fall all over themselves to
" haggle" then are pleased with their "bargain" they just negotiated
> Seems, "Value is... as value is percieved"
And you *are* right sir - It doesn't make sense
(Windows of course
115 • Turbolinux (by Anonymous on 2008-08-29 06:21:08 GMT from Italy)
US$90 for a Linux distro? Japanese only? Who the hell is going to be interested in that?
116 • Explanations (by Windows and Linux user on 2008-08-29 07:46:01 GMT from Italy)
@107: Maybe I wrote a syntactically incorrect sentence: I was not talking about the installation of an entire linux distribution. I was talking about installation and upgrade of a single application in linux. I agree with you that installing one of the recent linux distributions is easy.
I know that ms and osx are preinstalled and I know that linux is immediately ready out of the box after installation (at least in the more recent distributions).
The thing that I was trying to say was that with a release of a linux distribution a user can use the versions of the applications that are shipped with that release of the distribution, but it is not a trivial task to upgrade a single application, for example gimp or eclipse or openoffice: this is IN MY OPINION a big difference that prevents a user from using linux.
@109: What I see is that in a osx environment you have an os that is the same for some time (maybe some years) on top of which you can upgrade some applications. I think that OSX users and Windows users use respectively OSX and Windows in this way. This is not my own odd use.
This is not easy to do in linux: to upgrade an application you have to perform some tasks (backports or upgrade the entire distribution or upgrade a large number of dependencies of the package or other things …..), but the thing that I was trying to say is that, maybe you can manage to upgrade a single application, but you do it in a different way than in mac os x or in windows: in Windows or in macosx there are no package managers, there is a setup utility to follow and the applications are self-contained. So, in my opinion, this is another way of doing things. This is not my odd use.
So what I said was that a user have to use Windows and osx in one way and linux in another, at least in these areas: to install an application of a specific version, to upgrade an application, to install a driver and to upgrade a driver. Explanation of the differences: in osx or windows you can keep an os release for some time and upgrade applications and use the os for some years; in linux, in my opinion, this is almost impossible and this is well explained in the interview with Kris: "When trying to upgrade one package, it often triggered updates in other dependencies, which in turn updated other applications, and just often enough something would fail, causing a big mess that I was stuck trying to resolve.".
@112: Maybe above I better explained my opinion. However yes, some things are easier to do in linux and more convenient.
117 • @115 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-29 09:09:14 GMT from Taiwan)
Things in Japan are quite expensive...A bowl of soup noodle may cost you $10(1000 yen) and more.
118 • @117 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-29 10:31:32 GMT from Canada)
Re-explaind in that light, I do agree ( you are right)
Static libraries are not dependent on existing shared (original default) Distro inclusions
However, I think you would in turn agree - Windows is also open to those problems (DLL's)
Rule of thumb > do NOT *up-grade* unless proven need exists
But who listens ?
That is one benefit to compiling your own (under Linux
this is possible - not so for Windows users
They must wait for (M.S. locked-in) service packs or 3rd party (ahem) *fixes*
Either way - if the user is dependent on others - they may have
difficulities adding -on or changing what was originally supplied
Another thinbg we can agree about :
It's sure nice to be able to have a pleasant discussion of
vagaries of all O/systems - without flaming or minor hissy-fits
I thank all for patience Re my windy re-buffs
(but ya still don''t get your shoes back - i'm (s)mIles away now )
Best of regards to all, Esp DW
119 • OOPS (by Anonymous on 2008-08-29 10:38:00 GMT from Canada)
Hunt'n peck took tooo long - a faster typer came between
My reply was for #116
(reminds me - havn't had Won-ton soup for long time
& no - I don't roll-my own...soup that is)
120 • PCLinuxOS very much alive @110 (by davecs on 2008-08-29 11:25:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Anyone who installs PCLOS2007 or the 2008-MiniMe, will find updated packages available through the Synaptic software manager. We do appreciate that it takes a while to update from a fresh install but it works (and must be done before packages are added!). And it's still quicker than installing Windows. That's probably no consolation to people who do not have fast internet connections.
We are putting together another release, but we want existing users to be able to simply update to it. Such is the extra pressure you have when your aim is for rolling upgrades, but bear with us. We're a community distro, we are not money or target driven. When we've cleared the bumps off the road, there will be a new version out.
However if PCLOS is not for you (or your hardware!), we recommend that you look at the other distros shown at Distrowatch and other sites, and find one that is. Using Linux as opposed to Windows is far more important than which distro you choose, and the choice you have reflects the different outlooks and priorities of each group of developers, you're bound to find something that suits.
121 • PCLinuxOS @120 (by Jim S. on 2008-08-29 12:06:41 GMT from United States)
Hmmm, well its been way over a year isn't about time for a working updated ISO?
122 • Ref# 120 (by Verndog on 2008-08-29 15:42:10 GMT from United States)
I don't know if there the same, but I installed TinyMe on an old Compaq laptop and very pleased with the speed. I'll check out "2008-MiniMe" and see if I like that.
123 • Tiny Me vs Mini Me @122 (by davecs on 2008-08-29 21:52:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
TinyMe is an extreme cut down version of PCLinuxOS, MiniMe as more akin to installing an operating system but with nothing but basic software. That said, with MiniMe you get a minimal KDE desktop with few bells and whistles, and you might find it's snappy enough to install on an older system.
Plenty of people report that it's quick enough for most purposes.
The great thing about the vast majority of Linux distros is that it costs nothing to try!
124 • PC-BSD and KDE 4.1 (by Anonymous on 2008-08-29 23:31:06 GMT from Italy)
I might briefly try PC-BSD 7 when it is released, but it won't stay long on my computer. I am going to avoid every distro wich offers KDE 4 as only choice for as long as possible.
Later I'll decide what to do, whether in about one year time KDE 4 is ready to use or whether to move to another DE altogether.
125 • No mention of LinuxMCE? (by rich_719 on 2008-08-30 03:10:29 GMT from United States)
Why no mention of LinuxMCE on my favorite distro news page? It seems to have some momentum and looks quite interesting. Maybe you are just considering it an add-on?
Great site - I love it - you do Linux a great service here!
126 • RE: 125 No mention of LinuxMCE? (by ladislav on 2008-08-30 03:21:06 GMT from Taiwan)
LinuxMCE is just an add-on to Ubuntu, not a separate distribution.
127 • Linpus.com is up again (by Ariszló on 2008-08-30 10:59:33 GMT from Hungary)
..but not fully functional yet. Pressing the Download Now! button at http://www.linpus.com/xampp/webmaster/Products/MediaCenter2.0.htm brings up a Not Found message.
Number of Comments: 127
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
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|• Issue 819 (2019-06-17): OS108 and Venom, renaming multiple files, checking live USB integrity, working with Fedora's Modularity, Ubuntu replacing Chromium package with snap|
|• Issue 818 (2019-06-10): openSUSE 15.1, improving boot times, FreeBSD's status report, DragonFly BSD reduces install media size|
|• Issue 817 (2019-06-03): Manjaro 18.0.4, Ubuntu Security Podcast, new Linux laptops from Dell and System76, Entroware Apollo|
|• Issue 816 (2019-05-27): Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8.0, creating firewall rules, Antergos shuts down, Matthew Miller answers questions about Fedora|
|• Issue 815 (2019-05-20): Sabayon 19.03, Clear Linux's developer features, Red Hat explains MDS flaws, an overview of mobile distro options|
|• Issue 814 (2019-05-13): Fedora 30, distributions publish Firefox fixes, CentOS publishes roadmap to 8.0, Debian plans to use Wayland by default|
|• Issue 813 (2019-05-06): ROSA R11, MX seeks help with systemd-shim, FreeBSD tests unified package management, interview with Gael Duval|
|• Issue 812 (2019-04-29): Ubuntu MATE 19.04, setting up a SOCKS web proxy, Scientific Linux discontinued, Red Hat takes over Java LTS support|
|• Issue 811 (2019-04-22): Alpine 3.9.2, rsync examples, Ubuntu working on ZFS support, Debian elects new Project Leader, Obarun releases S6 tools|
|• Issue 810 (2019-04-15): SolydXK 201902, Bedrock Linux 0.7.2, Fedora phasing out Python 2, NetBSD gets virtual machine monitor|
|• Issue 809 (2019-04-08): PCLinuxOS 2019.02, installing Falkon and problems with portable packages, Mint offers daily build previews, Ubuntu speeds up Snap packages|
|• Issue 808 (2019-04-01): Solus 4.0, security benefits and drawbacks to using a live distro, Gentoo gets GNOME ports working without systemd, Redox OS update|
|• Issue 807 (2019-03-25): Pardus 17.5, finding out which user changed a file, new Budgie features, a tool for browsing FreeBSD's sysctl values|
|• Issue 806 (2019-03-18): Kubuntu vs KDE neon, Nitrux's znx, notes on Debian's election, SUSE becomes an independent entity|
|• Issue 805 (2019-03-11): EasyOS 1.0, managing background services, Devuan team debates machine ID file, Ubuntu Studio works to remain an Ubuntu Community Edition|
|• Issue 804 (2019-03-04): Condres OS 19.02, securely erasing hard drives, new UBports devices coming in 2019, Devuan to host first conference|
|• Issue 803 (2019-02-25): Septor 2019, preventing windows from stealing focus, NetBSD and Nitrux experiment with virtual machines, pfSense upgrading to FreeBSD 12 base|
|• Issue 802 (2019-02-18): Slontoo 18.07.1, NetBSD tests newer compiler, Fedora packaging Deepin desktop, changes in Ubuntu Studio|
|• Issue 801 (2019-02-11): Project Trident 18.12, the meaning of status symbols in top, FreeBSD Foundation lists ongoing projects, Plasma Mobile team answers questions|
|• Issue 800 (2019-02-04): FreeNAS 11.2, using Ubuntu Studio software as an add-on, Nitrux developing znx, matching operating systems to file systems|
|• Issue 799 (2019-01-28): KaOS 2018.12, Linux Basics For Hackers, Debian 10 enters freeze, Ubuntu publishes new version for IoT devices|
|• Issue 798 (2019-01-21): Sculpt OS 18.09, picking a location for swap space, Solus team plans ahead, Fedora trying to get a better user count|
|• Issue 797 (2019-01-14): Reborn OS 2018.11.28, TinyPaw-Linux 1.3, dealing with processes which make the desktop unresponsive, Debian testing Secure Boot support|
|• Issue 796 (2019-01-07): FreeBSD 12.0, Peppermint releases ISO update, picking the best distro of 2018, roundtable interview with Debian, Fedora and elementary developers|
|• Issue 795 (2018-12-24): Running a Pinebook, interview with Bedrock founder, Alpine being ported to RISC-V, Librem 5 dev-kits shipped|
|• Issue 794 (2018-12-17): Void 20181111, avoiding software bloat, improvements to HAMMER2, getting application overview in GNOME Shell|
|• Issue 793 (2018-12-10): openSUSE Tumbleweed, finding non-free packages, Debian migrates to usrmerge, Hyperbola gets FSF approval|
|• Issue 792 (2018-1203): GhostBSD 18.10, when to use swap space, DragonFly BSD's wireless support, Fedora planning to pause development schedule|
|• Issue 791 (2018-11-26): Haiku R1 Beta1, default passwords on live media, Slax and Kodachi update their media, dual booting DragonFly BSD on EFI|
|• Issue 790 (2018-11-19): NetBSD 8.0, Bash tips and short-cuts, Fedora's networking benchmarked with FreeBSD, Ubuntu 18.04 to get ten years of support|
|• Issue 789 (2018-11-12): Fedora 29 Workstation and Silverblue, Haiku recovering from server outage, Fedora turns 15, Debian publishes updated media|
|• Full list of all issues|
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
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Haiku is an open-source operating system, currently in development, that specifically targets personal computing. Inspired by the Be Operating System (BeOS), Haiku aims to become a fast, efficient, simple to use, easy to learn and yet very powerful system for computer users of all levels. The key highlights that distinguish Haiku from other operating systems include: specific focus on personal computing, custom kernel designed for responsiveness, fully threaded design for great efficiency with multi-processor/core CPUs, rich object-oriented API for faster development, database-like file system (BFS) with support for indexed metadata, and unified, cohesive interface.