 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 253, 19 May 2008 |
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Welcome to this year's 20th issue of DistroWatch Weekly! Fedora 9 came out last week as expected, but the many experimental features and software packages in the distribution seem to detract some would-be users from upgrading their distribution. Do you enjoy testing the latest and greatest the Linux development world has to offer? Then Fedora 9 is for you. Otherwise look elsewhere. In the news section, Ubuntu's Mark Shuttleworth calls on greater release synchronisation between the major Linux vendors, Debian struggles to come to terms with a massive OpenSSL vulnerability, ComputerWold Australia interviews Ian Murdock, the Sun Microsystems' vice president in charge of OpenSolaris, and Gentoo succeeds in reinstating Gentoo Foundation in New Mexico. Also in this issue, an explanation why DistroWatch does not focus more on GPL violations and other legal topics, and an opinion piece on the subject of growing mistrust of users towards Canonical and Ubuntu. Happy reading!
Content:
 Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
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| Feature Story |
Technology versus ideology
Some of the topics that have come up in the DistroWatch Weekly discussion forum recently is the issue of violating the GPL by some distributions and the question of boycotting Novell and its products due to the company's role in legitimising the infamous Linux patent claim by Microsoft. Some readers went as far as asking us to remove certain distributions from the DistroWatch list, while others want us take a more active role in exposing Novell's patent deal and its implications on the future of Linux and open source software. Although all these readers have valid points and we welcome the diversity of opinions in the forum, don't expect DistroWatch to become another Groklaw and to cover these topics extensively here.
Why? There are several reasons. Firstly, none of us is a lawyer and none of us intends to become one. While we do agree that a GPL violation is a very serious matter indeed, just because a reader emails us alleging that a project does not comply with its terms and conditions, it doesn't make him right. Until the project is convicted in the court of law, it is innocent. Secondly, there are web sites that are better equipped (in terms of expertise) to deal with GPL violations, patent protection agreements and other lawyer's stuff. Groklaw has been covering these topics for several years, while BoycottNovell.com is another web site that continues to expose the Novell-Microsoft patent protection agreement. For smaller community projects, our friend Béranger will uncover any distribution that does not have a "source" directory on their FTP server. If you feel strongly about licence violations and patent agreements, I suggest you spend more time on the above-mentioned web sites and their forums.
The most important reason, however, is the raison d'être of DistroWatch. Since the beginnings of the web site in 2001, we have always preferred to focus more on technology and less on ideology. I agree with Linus Torvalds in this respect - personally, I care less about what license the operating system or software package is released under and more about what it can do for us, its end users. Does it save us time and money? Does it make us more productive? Does it have useful features? Are the developers accessible? Do they accept input from users? Do they have innovative ideas? Do they take software security seriously? These are the questions that we prefer to answer here at DistroWatch. That's not to say that we condone GPL violations or that we agree with Novell's way of conducting its affairs. But we don't intend to turn DistroWatch into a portal promoting ideological purity of software at the expense of technological achievements of the OSS development communities.
Hate Ubuntu? It's normal!
If you believe online forums and blogs, Ubuntu must be the most hated Linux distribution on earth. Not only is it funded by a millionaire space tourist and aggressive capitalist, it also exists (according to another Linux company's CEO) for the sole purpose of destroying all other distributions that exist on the market. It is reportedly a parasite that takes all the code from Debian without contributing much back and despite all its "software for humanity" talk, it keeps developing proprietary software solutions (e.g. Launchpad). Mark Shuttleworth's recent suggestion to synchronise distribution releases in order to coordinate bug-fixing work was greeted with a suspicion that he merely wants "to benefit from a lot of work that Novell and Red Hat are already doing in the enterprise space." So what makes people dislike and mistrust Ubuntu so much?
I don't think it's specifically Ubuntu that many people have a problem with. Throughout the history of our coverage of distributions here at DistroWatch, it was always the top one that some readers appeared to dislike most. If you've been around in the early parts of this decade, you might remember that Mandrake Linux went through similar pains - it kept getting a high number of reviews, but it also attracted more than its fair share of negativity on user forums. Interestingly, now that it acts from the position of an underdog, it has suddenly become the darling of the distro world, with excellent products and barely any criticism - but also hardly any reviews. It is the same as when a group of unbiased spectators watches a sporting contest between a clear favourite and an unfancied underdog - they will undoubtedly support the latter with all their might! It's the human nature.
The fact that many people dislike the top distribution is not really a problem. The problem is that many of these folks are extremely vocal on the Internet to express their opinions. While no intelligent reader will ever take them seriously, they do give the Linux community a bad name and discourage potential Linux users from joining us. Can anything be done about this? Not much, it seems. Until people start reading their own posts and realise that senseless negativity towards the most popular distribution is counter-productive, we will have to live with the unfortunate fact that the top dog will always be the most hated one too - at least in the more immature and destructive circles on the Internet.
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| Miscellaneous News |
Bleeding-edge Fedora, Shuttleworth on release synchronisation, Debian's OpenSSL vulnerability, interview with Ian Murdock, Gentoo Foundation status update
 Fedora 9 was released last week. As many users have discovered since then, the latest version of Red Hat's community distribution is a rather adventurous mix of bleeding-edge packages and experimental features. The development version of X.Org 1.5 does not work well with any of the proprietary NVIDIA graphics drivers, which were promptly left out from the stable Livna.org repositories. Similarly, Firefox 3.0b5 is a beta build, lacking support for many popular add-ons. And there is KDE 4.0.3, another experimental, buggy and feature-lacking desktop package that is forced onto Fedora's KDE users without an alternative. No wonder that many users are unhappy about some of the choices Fedora developers made prior to the release. But as is always the case with this popular distribution, things are bound to improve in the coming weeks. The first major batch of package updates has already entered the testing directory, so it shouldn't be long before they are pushed on to the end users. If you are a Fedora fan, but would prefer your Linux desktop to have fewer experimental software packages, you might want to postpone the upgrade for a month or two, or investigate one of the distributions with a policy of shipping stable and well-tested software only.
Fedora 9 - too bleeding-edge?
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* * * * *
 One of the most popular discussion topics of the past week was the long blog post by Mark Shuttleworth, Discussing free software synchronicity. In it, the Ubuntu founder suggested that it could be better for the entire free software community if major distribution releases were synchronised in order to share code, bug-fix patches and other work of common interest: "It's clear that there's a slower rhythm of 'enterprise', 'LTS' or 'major' releases. These are the ones that people end up supporting for years and years. They are also the ones that hardware vendors want to write drivers for, more often than not. And a big problem for them is still 'which version of X, kernel, libC, GCC' etc should we support? If the distributions can articulate, both to upstreams and to the rest of the ecosystem, some clear guidance in that regard then I have every reason to believe people would respond to it appropriates. I've talked with kernel developers who have said they would LOVE to know which kernel version is going to turn into RHEL or an Ubuntu LTS release, and ideally, they would LOVE it if those were the same versions, because it would enable them to plan their own work accordingly. So let's do it!"
* * * * *
 Debian GNU/Linux has had a rough week. Thanks to the predictable randomness vulnerability in its OpenSSL package, many Debian and Debian-based servers that allow login using authorised keys were vulnerable to a brute-force attack. Erich Schubert: "Apparently, there are only about 2^15 different keys generated by the SSH versions shipped with Debian for 2 years. Hackers have already generated all these 32,767 different keys, for two key lengths and types." Russel Cocker: "It should also be possible to make up to 2^15 attempts to login to a session remotely if an attacker believes that an authorized key was being used - that would take less than an hour at a rate of 10 attempts per second (which is possible with modern net connections) and could be done in a day if the server was connected to the net by a modem." The reaction of the Debian developer community varied; some went as far as to call for firing the developer responsible for the error, but eventually reasons prevailed over emotions. John Goerzen: "I happen to know that the Debian programmer that made this patch is a very sharp individual. I have worked with him on several occasions and I would say that kicking him out of maintaining OpenSSL would be a quite stupid thing to do. He is, like the rest of us, human. We might find that other people are considerably less perfect than he."
* * * * *
 Here is a good, 3-page interview with Ian Murdock, the founder of Debian GNU/Linux and the vice president of Sun Microsystems responsible for the recent launch of OpenSolaris 2008.05: "Q: What do you do at Sun? I see the OpenSolaris project seems to fall onto your plate. A: Initially I was working on OpenSolaris and started Project Indiana, which culminated this week [with] the first version of the OpenSolaris binary distribution. These days I am running the developer and community marketing organization, so I am responsible for marketing Sun's developer tools, the developer programs like Sun Developer Network and Tech Days Events, our open-source projects and communities. [Also, I do marketing for] StarOffice, OpenOffice, Network.com. So basically anything that relates to the developer community in some way, I run the marketing piece of that."
* * * * *
 Finally, the Gentoo project has announced that the Gentoo Foundation was officially reinstated last week: "If you're interested in the legal standing of Gentoo, you can relax because in the past week, the State of New Mexico declared that the Gentoo Foundation Inc has returned to good standing and is free to do business. This accomplishment allows other aspects of the foundation's work to proceed again. The foundation takes care of Gentoo's intellectual property (copyrights, trademarks) and money. It ensures that nobody violates our copyrights and trademarks, serves as a place to hold money, and decides where to devote that money."
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| Released Last Week |
Fedora 9
Fedora 9 has been released: "The Fedora Project, a Red Hat sponsored and community-supported open source collaboration, today announced the availability of Fedora 9, the latest version of its open source operating system distribution. Highlights: PackageKit, a cross-distribution package management solution; GNOME 2.22; KDE desktop 4.0.3 featuring upgrades to core components such as the port to Qt 4; NetworkManager improvements; Firefox 3 Beta 5; SELinux confined web browser; OpenJDK6, the release of Sun Java SDK under a free and open source license; X.Org updates; consolidated dictionary support; Bluetooth enhancements; persistent live USB support; Upstart init daemon; ext4 file system support...." See the formal press release and read the comprehensive release notes for more information.
Ark Linux 2008.1
Bernhard Rosenkraenzer has announced the release of Ark Linux 2008.1, an easy-to-use desktop Linux distribution with KDE and a selection of highly up-to-date applications: "The Ark Linux team is pleased to announce the immediate availability of Ark Linux 2008.1, a new version of its easy-to-use, easy-to-learn operating system. Contrary to our original plan for this release, we have decided to make one more release based on KDE 3.x, to provide a stable state-of-art system that fixes all known problems with earlier versions before the big move to KDE 4.x. Major changes from the last release include updates to KDE 3.5.9, kernel 2.6.25.3, glibc 2.8 and wine 1.0-rc1, building everything with GCC 4.3 for improved performance, greatly extended hardware support, and the addition of Gnash, a free player for Flash animations." Here is the brief release announcement.
MEPIS antiX 7.2
MEPIS has announced the release of MEPIS antiX 7.2, a lightweight, community variant of MEPIS Linux designed for older computers: "MEPIS has announced the release of antiX 7.2, 'Vetëvendosje.' Built using the MEPIS Linux 7.0 core including the MEPIS 2.6.22 kernel and utilities, along with selected additions from Debian Lenny, this lightweight operating system is especially appropriate for older hardware and users who like a very fast functional system. Pre-configured window managers Fluxbox and IceWM, as well as Conky and ROX Desktop, come ready to use. The search tool Catfish and the video player gxine have been added. New features based on community contributions include revised customized menus for better usability, a detailed set of FAQs for the new user, original wallpapers, and scripts for easy configuration of user and system files." Read the release announcement and check out the list of installed application for further details.
MEPIS antiX - a light-weight distribution designed to run efficiently on older computers
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rPath Linux 2.0
Michael K. Johnson has announced the release of rPath Linux 2.0, a highly customisable appliance operating system featuring the Conary package management utility: "rPath is pleased to announce that rPath Linux 2 is now available and recommended for general use as an appliance platform. What's new? rPath Linux 2 is the next step in the evolution of the rPath Linux platform. In addition to a technology refresh (new versions of included packages), rPath Linux 2 is better tuned as a platform to show off your work. Just enough OS - rPath Linux 2 is smaller than rPath Linux 1. Boot splash branding - rPath Linux 2 implements a graphical boot process which is easy to customize to look the way you want. Additional security mechanisms: - several additional runtime security measures have been added to most packages. More robust system boot - the syslinux bootloader is now the default bootloader....." Read the complete release announcement for more information.
Ubuntu Muslim Edition 8.04
Ubuntu Muslim Edition (UbuntuME) 8.04, an Ubuntu-based distribution featuring Islamic software, a Quran study tool and a web content filtering utility, has been released: "The Ubuntu Muslim Edition team is proud to announce the final version of UbuntuME 8.04. It includes an installable live desktop CD, a second CD with additional software (OpenOffice.org, Arabic language packs, Quran recitations, etc.), an installable DVD (with more Quran recitations), and a script to convert standard Ubuntu installations to UbuntuME. Highlights: WebStrict (parental control tool) enabled by default; Zekr 0.7.0 (Quran study tool) installed and configured to play Quran recitations; Minbar and Firefox 'Pray Times' add-on installed; Monajat (display Islamic prayers); Thwab (encyclopedia); UbuntuME artworks: usplash, login screen, Islamic wallpapers, theme etc." See the complete release announcement for more information.
Ubuntu Muslim Edition 8.04 provides a variety of Islamic software.
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* * * * *
Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
- Linux Mint 5.0-beta1, the release announcement
- Beyond LFS 6.3-rc1, 6.3-rc2, the release notes
- Elive 1.7.2, the release announcement
- Frugalware Linux 0.9-pre1, the release announcement
- Endian Firewall 2.2-rc1, the release announcement
- Litrix Linux 8.5-rc1, the release announcement
- Sabayon Linux 3.5-beta3, the release announcement
- openSUSE 11.0-beta3, the release announcement
- Parsix GNU/Linux 1.5r0-test2, the release announcement
- PC-BSD 7.0-alpha3
- Clonezilla Live 1.0.11-19
- B2D Linux 20080513
- Big Linux 4-rc
- RIPLinuX 5.4, 5.5
- Berry Linux 0.90
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
Fedora 10
The Fedora project has published a draft release schedule leading towards the distribution's next stable release - Fedora 10. The development will start with the initial alpha release at the end of July and should culminate with a stable version on 28 October 2008. As always with Fedora, these dates are merely estimates and, judging by the project's previous development periods, they are more than likely to change. For more information please see the Fedora 10 Release Schedule page on FedoraProject.org.
* * * * *
Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
Statistics - note on user agent string in Ubuntu 8.04
Those of you who follow the DistroWatch web server statistics might have been surprised to see a big drop in the number of visitors using Ubuntu - from over 11% last month to less than 4% this month. Upon closer investigation, it turned out that the reason is simple - the Firefox web browser in the recently released Ubuntu 8.04 "Hardy Heron" does not come with a custom user agent string, causing all visitors using Ubuntu 8.04 to fall into the "unknown OS" category. Hopefully, this "bug" will be updated in due course. In the meantime, Ubuntu still remains the most often-used distribution among the DistroWatch readers with 10.5% of all Linux-using visitors, followed by Debian GNU/Linux (9.2%), openSUSE (5.5%) and Fedora (5.3%).
* * * * *
New distributions added to database
* * * * *
New distributions added to waiting list
- Ubuntu Rescue Mix. Ubuntu Rescue Mix is a GNU/Linux live system which runs from CD or USB flash device. It provides the data recovery specialist with a command-line interface environment equipped with the best free and open source data recovery and forensics tools available.
* * * * *
DistroWatch database summary
And this concludes the latest issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 26 May 2008.
Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • linux gaming (by awong on 2008-05-19 09:17:06 GMT from Canada)
Very interested to see how wine and linux gaming continues to develop. Also looking forward to Mint 5 final!
2 • Boycott BoycottNovell.com (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 09:26:17 GMT from Germany)
That site is a joke, a parody of a journalism site full with silly graphics, FUD and self-invented "facts" and "truth".
3 • Fedora too Bleeding edge? So is Ubuntu (by Jordi on 2008-05-19 09:35:11 GMT from Spain)
Package version selection for Fedora 9 and Ubuntu 8.04 is almost the same (except Fedora has 2.6.25 instead of Ubuntu 2.6.24). I do have a weird problem with both which i didn't have with previous releases. Both Fedora and Ubuntu randomly crash and freeze the desktop forcing me doing a hard reboot (no ctrl+alt+f1) work here.
I have an Athlon64 3400+, 2GB RAM, Maxtor SATA drive, and a Radeon X800XT.
And before you ask, it was totally stable before, and is totally stable with windows gaming.
Anyone had this weird issue? Any way to report or fix it?
4 • Ubuntu becoming more unstable (by Debianux on 2008-05-19 10:03:53 GMT from Switzerland)
I'm also very disappointed of the instability of this Ubuntu release (8.04). I had less problem with the previous releases (especially before 7.04) and above all it's a LTS, so it SHOULD be more stable... Fedora was always too unstable for me and openSUSE is horrible (although they don't use the newest unstable software -- I don't know what's the problem there)! This Debian vulnerability in OpenSSL also makes me a bit worry...
I don't know the reason why the distros are becoming more unstable; I only notice that in the past they were more stable. Perhaps we should test more alpha/beta releases!?
5 • KDE4 (by Bob on 2008-05-19 10:18:46 GMT from Austria)
If something's new it's supposed to be better, right? After a few evaluation attempts I have finally given up on KDE4. Just another Vista I'd say. My personal rating: KDE 4.5.9, Gnome, , KDE4.
6 • Ubututu show me your patches! (by Eddy Nigg on 2008-05-19 10:22:38 GMT from Israel)
Please show me your patches and contributions! I haven't seen any yet! I've seen the ones from Red Hat, Sun, Google, Novell, IBM, HP, Intel and scores of other individuals and vendors.
7 • The free software synchronicity idea. (by Heni on 2008-05-19 10:34:15 GMT from Sweden)
I find Mark Shuttleworth's idea very interesting. If we disregard the uniformity of distributions it may yield, this could actually prove to be very positive for the community. I am all for it.
I guess diversity could come from (like always!?) from different choices in configuration, package selection, package system (which is debated right know if it is necessary) art and community support.
8 • RE 5 NO (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 10:36:06 GMT from France)
"If something's new it's supposed to be better, right?"
Wrong....
It is likely to be undebugged, as new softwares often are (and the pressure to release fast, for PR "reasons", makes things worse in the free world), and , like new shoes (even if they are in good state), people are not accustomed to it...
9 • Vocal comments, Mark Shuttleworth, GPL, OpenSolaris... (by Clement Lefebvre on 2008-05-19 10:46:32 GMT from Sweden)
"The problem is that many of these folks are extremely vocal on the Internet to express their opinions. While no intelligent reader will ever take them seriously, they do give the Linux community a bad name and discourage potential Linux users from joining us. Can anything be done about this? Not much, it seems."
I disagree. A lot can be done and it's the responsibility of each website to decide what is and isn't acceptable. As far as our blog goes for instance we only accept constructive comments. If someone doesn't agree with the content we at least expect his/her comment to be respectful and to explain why he/she disagrees. We learn from constructive criticisms as much as we ignore and delete aggressive ones.
Distrowatch is among the most visited websites in the Linux world and probably a place where a lot of newcomers find information. Sadly the comment section of distrowatch weekly is often full of hate, agressive comments and distrobashing.
Ladislav, I remember sending you an email about a particular occasion and the answer you gave me... It's ok for you to adopt a laxist attitude towards bullying and distrobashing but I disagree with the statement in the article above. A lot can be done indeed and it's entirely up to you to decide how "vocal" this sort of comments can be here on distrowatch.
About Mark's call for synchronized releases, it makes a lot of sense and it could benefit Linux as a whole. When an idea is good it doesn't matter who got it first, it should be discussed, considered and implemented. Plus, what would make us not believe Mark or doubt his intentions? He's always been very honest and open in everything he's done.
About the GPL the important thing is to guarantee that the distributor of the binaries will be there to also distribute the source may the need for them arise. It's got nothing to do with price (I think Mepis even charges for it) and it's got nothing to do with FTP.
About OpenSolaris, I'm delighted to see Sun getting involved. Check these videos of CommunityOne if you haven't already done so: http://developers.sun.com/events/communityone/
Clem.
10 • Eddy, they have patches... (by Béranger on 2008-05-19 10:52:31 GMT from Romania)
Ubuntu does have patches, you should simply check out the sources, the changelogs, the kernel git screw-ups, etc.
The problem is that their patches are (1) of poor quality; (2) unpractical for application upstream; (3) often unknown upstream.
11 • RE 10 : 3 shows that upstream remains consistent (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 10:57:31 GMT from France)
with (1) and (2).
What would happen if all the linuxen were *synchronously* the same? (perhaps Users (I am obliged to oppose to Linux, there) would be very glad to have Vista + Cygwin....)
12 • Ubuntu patches (by Clement Lefebvre on 2008-05-19 11:03:39 GMT from Sweden)
http://patches.ubuntu.com/
Also, from Ubuntu itself "apt-get source" will download the source of a package for you with all the Ubuntu patches related to it. Depending on the patching system used for the particular package the patches are in the debian folder or not...
From my experience and what I could observe, Ubuntu patches things a lot. It's not always easy to understand why a particular patch is made or how it works but the source is there for people to find out.
There's also a mailing list to receive patches notifications. The archives aren't accessible but you might be able to join: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-patches
Clem.
13 • About hard lockups (by Artem S. Tashkinov on 2008-05-19 11:16:07 GMT from Russian Federation)
2Jordi:
At first upgrade your BIOS to the latest available version - it often helps solving some weird problems with Linux (usually bad ACPI is in charge).
Try running memtest86+ for at least few hours.
Try checking if your X server crashes due to bad drivers. If you have any kind of network try pinging your PC, and if it answers then you can log on via SSH and restart X.
If you have a kernel panic and if it happens only while running X server then you are out of luck - debugging this problem is not an simple thing.
Try to downclock to their normal speeds your hardware components (if they are OCed).
14 • Ubuntu Hate (by NeverMyself on 2008-05-19 11:16:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
In my opinion, the reason Ubuntu gets so much hate is because it's a distribution that has brought newbies to the scene, sure nobody minds a new guy once in a while, but people are scared that linux will turn into a fashion of some kind. And I don't blame them, I feel the same way. All newbie distros get alot of crap because of this.
15 • fedora must rethink of kde (by asi57 on 2008-05-19 11:20:45 GMT from Turkey)
I love fedora and I have been using it for two years. I prefer KDE so fedora+kde was my choice. But in this release I don't understand what fedora people think when they choose only KDE4. KDE guys said that KDE4 is not usable right now and there a lot of bugs and suffers lots of functionality. I don't understand "the-bleeding-age" crap. Fedora is making things worse. I ask you fedora people? Why didn't you offer both kde3 and kde4 desktops? Most of the kde3 programs didn't port to kde4. So most of fedora-kde users will suffer from this. Oh yes, I forget, your priority is gnome people, right? I don't think I will use fedora for any reason from now. It just proved to me that kde in fedora is just useless piece of crap and pushing kde users to use gnome. I will try kubuntu or debian, at least they offer kde3 or kde4.
16 • Re #8 (by Barnabyh on 2008-05-19 11:35:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
It's called a rhetorical question, dbrion.
17 • Supergamer (by martalli on 2008-05-19 11:37:44 GMT from United States)
Where can I get the Supergamer wallpaper?
18 • I love everyone! (by Gene Venable on 2008-05-19 11:40:40 GMT from United States)
Well, not really, but I think Ubuntu is great and thought the latest Suse was also quite impressive. I have been off in Sidux-land and find it to be very fast and fun. So, all's right with the world, though I ran into probls with the latest Mint beta. It's one of my mainstays, so I hope it straightens itself out for me or I find some trick that makes it work.
I don't see anything horrible about the vibes here in the user comments on Distrowatch. Linux has always had a high snob-quotient and probably always will. We should be used to that by now. But honestly, the Linux community is a lot of fun.
19 • 16 Another rhetorical questions (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 11:45:04 GMT from France)
Why do people here *synchronously* download the latest, greatest bugs?
Why do they cry?
Why do distributors have short release cycles (while there is a petition whith 160000 people wanting ... XP, -which is ~7 years old- to be kept) and do they want to _synchronize_ (users wo not have any time to test.
FYI : all the Linux users I know are happy witj their version (either Aurochs, Debian, Fedora, Mandriva or WhiteBox... and seldom change.
I never saw UBUlinux working [ I agree that their PR works, but cheated people may be unhappy ].... though I know it exists, since a friend of mine *removes* it from his apprentices PC...).
20 • Re: 15 (by bob on 2008-05-19 11:46:39 GMT from United States)
Have you thought about slackware? It provides a very stable kde3.
21 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 12:00:15 GMT from Spain)
To Artem:
My BIOS is up to date.
I'll try memtest thing, but i remember doing it once without problems, maybe now i got some corrupted memory module.
I haven't installed any additional drivers, because X800XT is supported by x server by default without additional drivers. Maybe i can try with fglrx to see i have better luck.
I'll check the SSH thing, to see if it works, haven't tried yet.
Nothing about overclocking, all components run at their default speed, and none of them are overheating.
Weirdest thing is that with Fedora 7 and Ubuntu 7.10 i didn't have those problems with the same hardware. I am thinking of going back to those versions.
22 • KDE (by NeverMyself on 2008-05-19 12:01:01 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yeah, KDE 4 has been shot down by many users, and rightly so in my opinion, the menu is just too wide and slightly patronising with it's gigantic buttons. Something I'd expect on Mandriva, but knowhere else.
I agree with bob, Slackware is one of the best KDE 3.X distros available at the moment. I know that KDE 4 has driven me away to the 'boxes. Flux, Black etc. Better luck next time guys, don't reinvent the wheel!
23 • Ubuntu's stability ... (by Marc on 2008-05-19 12:08:43 GMT from Canada)
I tried the new Ubuntu on my laptop to find a major instability
in the kernel. Something i never seen before in any Ubuntu
i installed in 4 years. The processors slows any current
applications and by moving the mouse ( USB WIFI ) continue
the jobs. Another one is concerning wifi internet. I'm conected
through wifi, i can navigate on firefox for a couple of minutes
then no more conection. The taskbar says i'm conected and that
my signal is clear but no internet. This thing append in any
internet applications. That why i cant upgrade with Synaptic
if any Kernel fix would show. So now i'm waiting for the new Mint
8.04 and hope they find any fix for these.
24 • this week revue (by flojlg on 2008-05-19 12:24:02 GMT from France)
I totaly agree with the today's issue in fact I remember the good old days where "Mandrake" (today mandriva) has the same pro and con argument.
I Just here want to mention my point of vue!
you say that your concerns are the technical point versus of the ideologie, may I say I would like to see as well the usability!
Further to have only the technical point it looks that more of the distro look all the same.
Last week I mentioned that I don't see much difference between a yum or an apt-get distro these days, all with bleeding edge of their own, so much that you have to downgrade if you want to get a bit of fun in you distro.
So the point here is to say : technical, yes of course but please let's see as well the pleasure to use Linux in a different vue, than these actual standardized an sad desktop.
what the point to have xorg 1.5, or kde4. or gnome 2.24 and have no fun with it ?...(remember windowmaker, afterstep and others with some feature still now to be discovered...)
25 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 12:30:51 GMT from Mexico)
"I don't think it's specifically Ubuntu that many people have a problem with."
Yeah, some have a problem with desktop-oriented distributions that still make extensive use of the command line to configure/install things. We call that BS.
26 • Of course... (by Whitespiral on 2008-05-19 12:31:51 GMT from Mexico)
"I don't think it's specifically Ubuntu that many people have a problem with."
Yeah, some have a problem with desktop-oriented distributions that still need extensive use of the command line to configure/install things. We call that BS.
27 • What about multiple desktops? (parial answ 24 + KDE4 "victims") (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 12:35:23 GMT from France)
Mandriva 2008.1 alpha2 (sorry, it is the only one I tested... but I bet that, as it is a general need, it is/will be a general feature ...or?) has this feature:
before starting, you can choose (with a menu) from the WM/DE you decided to install :
when I needed much RAM for *me*, I chose ICEWM,
else Kde (3, to remain wise) , Gnome and xfce seemed about as RAM greedy...
I hope they did not remove this feature, and others distributors find it technically useful... which makes a difference with the politics : one desktop == one distro, and some synonym dictionary based "release announces", which are in the PR UBU-ideology.....
28 • Technology versus ideology / Hate Ubuntu? It's normal! (by jmst on 2008-05-19 12:43:17 GMT from Portugal)
Excelent article.
29 • re:15 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 12:48:03 GMT from France)
Nothing stops you from hosting your yum repo with kde3.
The problem is that maintaining both kde3 and kde4 involves more work and benevolant work force is hard to find, whereas critics are way easier to find.
Sometimes critics are useful, and sometimes the problem is known and helpers are more useful.
30 • No subject (by burpnrun on 2008-05-19 12:50:49 GMT from Canada)
Personally, I don't think much of the idea to "synchnronize" kernel releases/usage. The Linux community has been highly successful without a major constraint like this. If your urges dictate a centralized and coordinated kernel, buy Windows or Solaris or any other proprietary offering.
Similarly, Ladislav strives to, and suceeds, in presenting us with distribution information, not political nutbar news. Groklaw has done an admirable job providing us with highly accurate and timely news about the machinations of the SCO debacle. The Boycott Novell site looks to be merely a single disgruntled child's opinion, few valid facts. There's no way Ladislav should be required to drop to the sludege-pile literary or accuracy level of that anti-Novell site. Distrowatch is a gem. Let's work to keep it that way.
Finally, I've been using KDE4 and, while there's no doubt that 3.5.9 is a better production level, the 4.04 I tested isn't too bad for a rewrite and repositioning of the premiere Linux desktop. It's really in testing mode, plain to see and communicated as such, so let's stop demanding perfection out of KDE4 right now.
I suspect that most of the people complaining don't want to participate in testing and creating/tracking bug reports on KDE4, so that it will end up being a rock solid piece of code. Yet these are the same whiners that complain about it not being rock solid or having this-or-that feature, *right now, thank you*.
It's really tough to suck and blow at the same time, but these folks manage to do it with aplomb and, apparenly, much shallow practice! In their minds, code mysteriously arrives all complete and stable and ready for them to use without a single bug. Dreamers all.
31 • Ubuntu 8.04 vs. Mint 4 von Toshiba P200-1K6-Portable (by Dennis on 2008-05-19 12:52:47 GMT from Germany)
Ubuntu 8.04: no gfx after boot, no response from the system..
Mint 4(based on Ubuntu 7.10): works great, detect gfx, WLAN and CPU(inkl. powersaving) correctly.
32 • RE: 26 (by unknown on 2008-05-19 12:56:00 GMT from Norway)
BS?
33 • Re: #23 (by Rupert on 2008-05-19 12:56:19 GMT from United States)
Yes - there's no doubt that the last two Ubuntu releases have both been a little lacklustre, with stability issues and many things 'just not working'.
Maybe they're losing their touch?
34 • Buntu (by Eric on 2008-05-19 12:58:35 GMT from Canada)
Yup, I'm also in the disliking buntu camp. LOL @ 25/26 by the way ;) Basically, when you've used the wondrous Linux for a while, and actually get into the community, the buntu that you got into Linux with now hampers what you want to do. I've given the buntu's a fair chance indeed, but now... I can't even stand to mention their names in full.
Also, if your looking for a nice KDE3 implementation, sidux is definitely the way to go, it is also my fav and chosen distro of the lot if you happen to wonder.
For insane reboots, have a look at some SysRq (yes the PrtScrn button beside scroll lock) magic, its amazingly powerful for hard reboots if you've got the balls ;)
35 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 13:11:40 GMT from United States)
Really good DWW!
I don't think the problem is with any specific distros. The problem is (normally) with the users. In many cases, someone has been using Linux for a few months, discovers a new distro, and wants to tell everyone it's the greatest. They then go overboard, heated words get exchanged, and the distro fanboi can't figure out why everyone hates his/her distro.
I agree that DW should not get into side issues about the GPL, patent deals, and all that jazz. Linux has a lot to offer. There are enough other places to get info about the side shows.
Please keep in mind that, unlike with Mac or Windows, we have choice. Many different needs and experience levels. My first full-time distro was Ubuntu, then Debian, now I'm moving to Slackware. Let's not assume that the only criteria for judging distros is the number of GUI configuration tools.
36 • Fedora 9: KDE 4.0.3 does not work (by agg3r on 2008-05-19 13:18:33 GMT from Italy)
I would like to use Fedora + Kde, and the only way to obtain something like to this combination in Fedora 9 consists of installing GNOME + KDE packages, and within GNOME you can use KDE applications like Koffice, Ktorrent and so on. Don't lose the hopes: every 2 months the website "http://spins.fedoraunity.org/author/kanarip" gives to you the latest version of Fedora with all the recent updates, so I think that, in July, we can find a more stable version of Fedora 9 (for now you can find only the torrent to download the latest stable version of Fedora 8 updated to 2008.05.01). For the newbies, there is an interesting tutorial to install Fedora 9 + GNOME at this address: "http://www.howtoforge.com/the-perfect-desktop-fedora9-gnome". Bye.
37 • Fedora 9 and bleeding edge (by Johnny Hughes on 2008-05-19 13:23:05 GMT from United States)
UMM ... fedora is supposed to be bleeding edge.
All the 6 month releases are bleeding edge, that's what they do. Fedora, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, Mandrake, etc. are bleeding edge by design.
The choice of Firefox-3b5 makes perfect sense if they want Firefox-3 in fedora-9 ... they are not going to do a major upgrade from firefox-2 to firefox-3 .. so 3b5, which can move to 3 when that is soon released, is the logical choice.
kde4 is the latest stable release from KDE ... it should be expected that it would be used in the lastest cutting edge distros that are released.
If you want enterprise quality stable software, use SUSE SLES, Red Hat RHEL, CentOS or even Debian stable ... that is what those are designed to be.
But, I don't see any reason to complian that bleeding edge distros are bleeding edge :-)
38 • Dropping KDE3 is a crime (by RE: 29 • re:15 on 2008-05-19 13:24:03 GMT from Romania)
> Nothing stops you from hosting your yum repo with kde3.
Users are users, not developers. This is cynical to ask Joe Sixpack to "host his own KDE3 repo". Why not asking him to fork the kernel? Or to cook his own distro?
> maintaining both kde3 and kde4 involves more work and benevolant work force is hard to find
Nobody forces Fedora to release twice a year -- except for this STUPID contest with Ubuntu!
> whereas critics are way easier to find
And distros who support a given Desktop Environment for years to come are even easier to find.
Oh... wait... even Microsoft is still supporting XP, 7 years later! Oh, but Fedora can only support KDE3 for 7 months, until Fedora 8 is phased out...
To the best or my memory, KDE 3.2.3 was still easy to crash, or it crashed by itself even now an then. The first release I judged really stable was KDE 3.3.2.
Now, if we count the time needed to have a really stable KDE, which is about 6 years(!) -- KDE 1.0 was released in July 1998, and KDE 3.3 in Aug. 2004 --, how we can we imagine that KDE4 will be of the same quality in 1-2 years?!
2012...2014 would be a more reasonable expectation horizon...
39 • complaining on new releases (by Leo on 2008-05-19 13:24:07 GMT from United States)
It's funny. I've been using linux since 1995. I used Slackware, RedHat, Mandrake/iva, Kubuntu. No matter what, each release of each distro I've seen, different people show up in the different Fora swearing that this (THIS) new release is the worst, ever, EVER! I find it amusing, Linux must be getting a little worse every six months :-)
40 • Bleeding edge (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 13:24:58 GMT from France)
Ubuntu 8.04 works fine for me, better than 7.10
If you fear the bleeding edge, here's a trick: install a multi boot with slackware with a shared home partition and use that as an emergency/recovery system for when an upgrade screws up. Post a bug and wait a little fot the distro team fix it. Then, you can get back to your favorite bleeding edge distro.
I do that because it is exciting to test new features and have the latest software and live in the future. However, I've found that slackware, while being very unexciting to plain boring, works and doesn't need major overhaul every six months for that, and doesn't have that, so you are not tempted anyway.
41 • RE: 37 • Fedora 9 and bleeding edge (by Béranger on 2008-05-19 13:28:03 GMT from Romania)
> kde4 is the latest stable release from KDE
NO. It's labeled as stable, but it's not stable at all, by no standards!
> If you want enterprise quality stable software, use SUSE SLES, Red Hat RHEL, CentOS
...which for instance includes unmaintained software labeled as Alpha? X-CD-Roast 0.98alpha15.
Maybe "roast" should have been written "rust"...
...otherwise, you're right, RHEL is the stable one, not Fedora-for-guinea-pigs.
42 • Ladislav's eeexperience (by Leo on 2008-05-19 13:33:12 GMT from United States)
Hi Ladislav
Just a friendly reminder that we are waiting for your review of different distributions running on the eee ;-) A round with installation tips up and such would be a killer :-)
Thank you!
43 • No subject (by Rahul Sundaram on 2008-05-19 13:39:13 GMT from India)
"Nobody forces Fedora to release twice a year -- except for this STUPID contest with Ubuntu!"
Well considering the Fedora existed long before Ubuntu and is a continuation of Red Hat Linux which itself followed a roughly six month release cycle process, it should be noted that Fedora has made the decision long before other distributions independently. Havoc Pennington was one that pushed the idea of time-based releases even to GNOME based on Red Hat Linux
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.advisory-board/1475/
Also note that Xorg, Linux Kernel, Openoffice.org and several others have moved to a time based recent schedule recently. Here is a research paper on how open releases work and how it affects quality:
http://www.cyrius.com/journal/phd?reverse=yes
Now it is still possible to criticize Fedora for making that decision to move to time based release or argue that it should not be a six month release cycle but distribution release schedules drive upstream project release schedules and vice versa and there is a reason for the current choice which as I have explained has nothing to do with other distributions.
44 • re:38 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 13:43:16 GMT from France)
Fedora 8 still supports KDE 3.5.
XP is 7 year old, but that doesn't stop Microsoft to release Vista.
Joe Sixpack is not supposed to discuss when Microsoft decides to retire XP from the market.
His input is welcome on the Fedora forum, provided it's constructive and not along the line 'you suck' and provided Joe Sixpack understands that developers provide software for him to use for free without any compensation of any sort and even provide help so he can use it not being a developer. If that is clear, Joe Sixpack can politely suggest but not demmand.
45 • Ubuntu (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 13:51:08 GMT from Italy)
I don't believe the reason why Ubuntu is so hated is because it is the top one, at least not the only reason.
I believe it is more along the line why Lindows/Linspire was hated: not "one of us".
The reasons why I personally dislike it are:
1)It has never worked properly on my hardware (5 PCs)
2)They forked Debian. I never understood why that was necessary.
Debian has had hundreds of derivatives, but Ubuntu was the first one to fork.
3)Their aggressive marketing campaign: "Linux for humans", the free CDs... While of course there is nothing wrong per se with that, it seems unfair towards other distributions who can't afford to do what Ubuntu does.
46 • Re: 43 && 44 (by Béranger on 2008-05-19 13:53:11 GMT from Romania)
> and is a continuation of Red Hat Linux which itself followed a roughly six month release cycle
When Red Hat followed a 6-mo release cycle, there was no Fedora. Which meant Red Hat was Red Hat, and they were correctly focusing on the unique distro they had. And it was good.
Noticed how fewer packages were at that time? Noticed how many packages are nowadays in Fedora? A 6-mo release cycle is not feasible anymore from the QA standpoint.
> Xorg, Linux Kernel, Openoffice.org and several others have moved to a time based recent schedule recently
X.org is more and more a piece of s41t. XFree86 was better. Now X.org has regressions all the time, until they get fixed, of course.
Linux Kernel: since it doesn't follow anymore the "even==stable, odd==unstable" paradigm, the Linux kernel is a huge mess and a pile of bugs. The really stable Linux kernel died with 2.6.0.
The guys at Openoffice.org are simply idiots. How can you aim at an ENTERPRISE ADOPTION when you release FOUR TIMES A YEAR?
-----
> Fedora 8 still supports KDE 3.5.
For 6-7 months, then KAPUT.
> that doesn't stop Microsoft to release Vista.
...while XP is still suppported with patches for YEARS to come (2012?).
I am not talking of the OEM agreements, I am talking about how long XP will be still supported with security patches.
47 • Ubuntu/SuSE/Fedora (by Sam on 2008-05-19 13:53:27 GMT from United States)
Okay, maybe it is just me. For years I've been a pretty committed SUSE/openSUSE user. I've flirted in the past with Ubuntu, Debian, and sometimes Fedora. Each time I'd try another distro I'd end up going back to SUSE -- Fedora just didn't work well for me (always felt like the developers were like New Jersey drivers "Hey! Screw you! I'm driving (replace that with developing) here!" -- and Ubuntu always seemed to be 90% right (with 10% buggy, problematic and really annoying quirks that made simple things like connecting to my printer or wireless network more trouble than they needed to be).
Now, maybe because I traded in my old Dell laptop for a Lenovo R61i, Ubuntu 8.04 works almost flawlessly where openSUSE 11 and Fedora 9 are very disappointing. I know openSUSE 11 is still beta, but its design just seems rough... or, dare I say it... 2 years old.
Desipte the Ubuntu hate looks like I'm sticking with Ubuntu.
48 • For 6#• (by A on 2008-05-19 14:04:34 GMT from Japan)
For 6#•
Ubuntu's contribution is the marketing that it has done especially targeting non geek people.
I for one, have reported lots of bugs to the Ubuntu team.
What have you done? (Other than showing immaturity?)
49 • RE: 48 • For 6#• (by Béranger on 2008-05-19 14:06:11 GMT from Romania)
Eddie has made this:
http://linux.startcom.org/
50 • No subject (by Rahul Sundaram on 2008-05-19 14:06:34 GMT from India)
"When Red Hat followed a 6-mo release cycle, there was no Fedora"
Sure but that doesn't change anything I said. Fedora inherited a lot of the release schedule, technology and community from Red Hat Linux and is a continuation/extension of that.
"Noticed how fewer packages were at that time? Noticed how many packages are nowadays in Fedora? A 6-mo release cycle is not feasible anymore from the QA standpoint."
This isn't necessary true considering the growth in the community.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics
. It depends on how you manage the development cycle. Read the research paper I referred earlier for more details. If what you say is true, Debian wouldn't be moving to a time based release cycle either.
I will skip all the swearing and get to the next point I wanted to clarify.
" Fedora 8 still supports KDE 3.5.
For 6-7 months, then KAPUT."
By that time, KDE 4.1 will already be part of Fedora 9.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ
51 • Ubuntu (by Amy on 2008-05-19 14:08:51 GMT from United States)
I happen to disagree with the fact it is hated do to it being the top. It might be some what true but I have used it and found it to be my least favorite. Every time I tried it, I was stuck browsing their forums and the web to get it to do what I wanted. The very first time I tried it long before I found this site I spent over 2 hours on yahoo with a ubuntu expert to get it working the way I needed and even then it still did not fully do what I wanted so ended up going back to windows and later on getting xandros which did do what I wanted right after installing it.
I actually did try Ubuntu last week and I had a lot of issues with it, so ended up getting Ark linux which actually I am having issues with mainly it not working with my mouse but I do have a post on their forum about it. Ark linux is the first linux that does not work with my wireless mouse but over all its not to bad and does do what I need it to do, just had to connect my wired mouse up to it.
52 • Immature questions @48 (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 14:12:55 GMT from France)
"I for one, have reported lots of bugs to the Ubuntu team.
"
Were they corrected?
If it was common to other GNU/linuxen, were the bugs transmitted to upstream?
"Ubuntu's contribution is the marketing "
How does one call a car manufacturer marketing for broken cars?
A software provider marketing ... for "lots of bugs" ... among beginners?
How did the beginners react when they realised the 8 wonder of the Free World had ... "lots of bugs", with a 6 months renewal cycle?
53 • RE: 50 (by Béranger on 2008-05-19 14:20:02 GMT from Romania)
> This isn't necessary true considering the growth in the community.
The chance to get new bugs does not increase linearly with the number of lines of code or/and with the number of packages and/or with the number of different hardware simultaneously on the market.
Do you have an exponentially-growing number of developers?
---
> By that time, KDE 4.1 will already be part of Fedora 9.
So what? Who says it will be stable, except that somebody will tag it "4.1"? And who says the users will WANT to switch to it?
This is as dictatorially as Microsoft is trying to push people into Vista.
And please, don't tell me that everybody's free to fork KDE3 and to maintain it for themselves...
54 • Ubuntu parches. what a lot of crapt never did a good job in first place (by I wanna get ritch quick also on 2008-05-19 14:26:56 GMT from Australia)
This has been my agument about lots of these so called Whiz band dostros in the first Place if you cant get it right the first time round - then why d:hose that dont comment becuse they gotta earn a living - pore sods :-)
55 • To Beranger (by Anon on 2008-05-19 15:01:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
Please quit with the foul and aggressive language. I believe may other will agree with me in saying that such behaviour is not appropriate and seriously hampers any credibility your arguments have.
With regard to your remark:
And who says the users will WANT to switch to it?
If people don't want it, they have plenty of other distributions to choose from. IIRC Fedora has always been about bleeding edge software, it should be of no surprise to anyone that KDE 4 is there. I don't see why you are making so much fuss over the issue.
56 • RE: 37 Fedora 9 and bleeding edge (by ladislav on 2008-05-19 15:02:21 GMT from Taiwan)
All the 6 month releases are bleeding edge, that's what they do. Fedora, OpenSUSE, Ubuntu, Mandrake, etc. are bleeding edge by design.
No, there is a difference between "cutting edge" and "bleeding edge". As an example, Mandriva 2008.1 comes with KDE 3.5.9, Firefox 2 and working NVIDIA drivers - all stable and well-tested software.
Distributions don't just get classified as either "enterprise distros" or "bleeding-edge distros" - there are many more subtle nuances in-between.
57 • No subject (by Rahul Sundaram on 2008-05-19 15:04:30 GMT from India)
"Do you have an exponentially-growing number of developers?"
Fedora package growth is not exponential. There is a growth of developers that roughly matches the growth of the small number of software packages that needs a lot of attention the distribution. This is something Fedora project on the whole keeps track of.
Fedora now has three full time kernel developers from Red Hat because that is where the large majority of bugs are filed against. The next majority of bugs are in the installer and there is a project that was creating during Fedora 9 development cycle to manage that.
https://fedorahosted.org/eunectes/
Fedora also has a full time QA guy for the last couple of releases
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WillWoods
There is more to do of course. Automated tests for instance would help avoid a lot of issues and use resources intelligently. There is however steps being taken incrementally.
"So what? Who says it will be stable, except that somebody will tag it "4.1"? And who says the users will WANT to switch to it?"
Not all users want to switch to a particular desktop environment regardless of the distribution and nobody can predict the future but 4.1 is due to the release cycle very much likely to fix issues with a dot zero release. The FAQ has more details.
58 • Yes, I hate ubuntu - Here's some reasons (by sick of ubuntu on 2008-05-19 15:10:12 GMT from United States)
1) The versions I've tried self destructed after recommended updates and became unusable.
2) It has resulted in a dumbing down and loss of functionality of projects like KDE (look at KDE4). The KDE control center is a direct copy of the one inKubuntu with KDE 3.5.x
3) It has led to the death of projects. An example is EmeraldBeryl. The re-merge with compiz resulted in a standard ubuntu demanded control panel which makes finding configuration options difficult and navigation a nightmare.
4) It has damaged projects. Look at BOINC. The "popularity" of ubuntu has caused the elimination of distribution specific versions resulting in one version built for ubuntu. It doesn't work on some other distributions but since "ubuntu is most popular" it's the only distribution that matters. Fortunately it's a relatively simple matter for a user to compile it on a computer it's intended to be used on.
5) The popularity of ubuntu doesn't mean it's better. It means there are a lot of people that are too stupid or lazy to take the time to LEARN. There are many better distributions available. Ubuntu has the money for a mass campaign to convince people to use it and induce manufacturers to install it. Then there's the multitude of fanboy drones who defend it and of course people like the author of this site who make money from it who continue to sing it's praises.
59 • release cycle (by jack on 2008-05-19 15:16:11 GMT from Canada)
The following was part of a post to the ubuntu forum:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=768200&page=25
Secondly, yes I'm long time Debian user.
This graph tells more than million words:
http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/
In my personaly opinion it's pure impossibility to create stable release in 6 months like ubuntu does. Debian is currently aiming for 18 month release cycle, that's much more realistic than 6 months.
60 • ref#9 I couldn't agree more !!! (by verndog on 2008-05-19 15:16:40 GMT from United States)
I was reading all the comments in this weekly section and I was struck with how many were just plain negative. Like crying babies. They all seemed so helpless. What did any of them try to do to find a fix for their problems.
The only comments for me that are worth reading are the ones with some inventive ways to doing something. It's like most commenters think this is a bitch center. Just saying I don't like this distro or that one, and mine is better than yours is ridiculous
In fact I'm running ubuntu BECAUSE of all the bad comments I've read! My thinking was, this must be good. And right I was. For the first time I have not used Windows for a few weeks now. All to the release of ubuntu 7.04 LTS.
61 • release cycle re #59 (by jack on 2008-05-19 15:24:29 GMT from Canada)
I was NOT the person who originally posted to the Ubuntu form
Sorry for any confusion
62 • @57 : the growth of code lines/package number leads to a growth (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 15:27:08 GMT from France)
of non detection of bugs and this growth is faster than linear (at least if the same testing/reviewing methods are used)...
"Fedora package growth is not exponential"
But the probability of non-detecting bugs is likely (correct me if I am wrong) to be exponential with the number of lines .....
(at least, if code is reviewed and in big chunks...)... and the number of testers/ source reviewers -to detect bugs- does not grow that fast.
If there are interactions between packages, likely to lead to side-effects (ex: the log-rotate bug in MNDRV 2006, which a 12 hr test was unable to detect...) this makes bug non-detection probability very unlinear .. and not growing linearly with the number of packages (the square ) ...
Beranger (@53) list of potential issues (lines of code / packages / HW complexity) seems exhaustive.
63 • KDE 4.x vs 3.x (by JeffM on 2008-05-19 15:30:33 GMT from Canada)
I started with gnome then switched to KDE 3.x. openSUSE was my main distro because of KDE but after playing with a few others that has KDE 4.x I can honestly say I don't like it and have switched back to gnome.
I realize its still 'new' and will take a while but until then, gnome it is.
I've since switch my laptops to ubuntu 8.04 with no problems. Just tried switching my server from debian to ubuntu but have had a few problems. Mainly, the web server is really really slow to bring up the pages. Logging in is slow too. I could bash away and trying to figure out why its like this but haven't got the time. For giggles, I will try Sidux and failing that, will go back to what I know works, debian.
64 • Gentoo Devs and Admins Most Hate Ubuntu..not Gentoo Users though.. (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 15:39:14 GMT from United States)
Try it for yourself just mention something nice about Ubuntu in the forum that works without a lot of configuration, the consistency of the Ubuntu platform that does not require manual changes every other year or all the updates quit working. Heaven forbid you mention the Ubuntu release schedule! That will surely lock that thread and call you all sorts of names because they are childish and will not live up to their responsibility.
"When a release happens on time, it builds confidence in the project, and injects a round of fresh testing, publicity, enthusiasm and of course bug reports. Code that is new gets a real kicking, and improves as a result."
Aaron Seigo
The people at Gentoo will tell you that they have rolling releases, yea right all you've got to do is compile all the updates from March 2007!
This is one distro that creates the most friction with Ubuntu, draws much from the community at the same time, sucks the life out of the developer community when they should be consolidating their efforts and stop the bashing!
65 • re: 7 Syncronizing releases (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 15:52:27 GMT from United States)
I think Shuttleworth is suggesting this to benefit himself (i.e. he doesn't want Fedora to have a newer version of XYZ than Ubuntu). However, if all distros adopted a "rolling release" policy, this would not be an issue. I think Arch and Gentoo fall into the rolling-release category. Any others?
66 • 59 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 15:53:05 GMT from United States)
I've had my Ubuntu locking up. It sits and does nothing for 5-10 seconds, then everything works again. At the first opportunity, I will be moving.
Not the only problem I've had but by far the most annoying. I'd even dust off Windows and work with that rather than put up with this problem.
67 • PCLINUXOS still the BEST DESKTOP OS (by LYCAN on 2008-05-19 15:56:37 GMT from United States)
so I tried Ubuntu 8.04, Fedora 9, not going to waste my time with slow OpenSuse.. and also ran PCLINUXOS this same week.
Out of all.. Fedora 9 and PCLINUXOS get my vote..
Yes I'm going to do the Xorg downgrade on F9 to see how it will work, because right now Fedora 9 is so fast its not even funny. I also get proper resolution out of the box without having to install nvidia drivers unlike cough cough UBUNTU..
so for those that want to play it safe and have the best looking desktop experience out of the box.. PCLINUXOS GNOME is here, or PCLINUXOS KDE as well.
U/Kubuntu is out of my list. till next release
but I'm still waiting for my lover, Linux Mint since they always do a good job ;-) ..
Arch
Fedora
PCLinuxOS
68 • Ubuntu and beyond (by Adam on 2008-05-19 16:24:28 GMT from Australia)
I look back upon my experience with Ubuntu with fond memories. For me, it represented my first, tentative steps into the world of Linux.
(Actually, that's not entirely true: I toyed with Red Hat 9 for a few hours until I realised I wasn't quite ready for it.)
I am apolitical by nature. I simply blank out the bickering and let the technology lead the way. In this sense, Ubuntu is still an excellent introduction to Linux.
For me, however, it was transitional, leading me to bigger and better things. Over time I befriended the command line, and although I've been running the fantastic Sidux as my workhorse over the past few months (and Arch Linux for general toying and tinkering), I have recently acquired a taste for compiling my application from source. Next stop: Gentoo!
And Slackware, the BSDs and possibly a foray into OpenSolaris...
As a Beginners' Introduction to Linux, Ubuntu has been remarkable, and given the Vista debacle, you can't deny that Canonical found itself with the right offering at the perfect moment. (OS X has been doing quite nicely too.) But as you learn more, as you get your hands dirty, you'll find that Ubuntu is a little too childproof. And you'll find yourself exploring distros that relinquish to you a little more control.
For those near-beginners out there who are feeling a little dissatisfied with the Ubuntu family for whatever reason: I simply can't praise Sidux highly enough. Some of the most common, yet intimidating tasks, like installing proprietary graphics drivers, have been automated - you simply have to run the appropriate script and it does the rest! And you have full access to the Debian repositories: Sidux is Debian under the hood. Download it, install it, savour it.
And enjoy the journey. :-)
69 • about Fedora (by good on 2008-05-19 16:27:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
To all the people whining about Fedora 9!!!
Guys just stay at F8. It still provides newer packages than Ubuntu 8.04 and is still going to get updates(example that comes to mind is the kernel 2.6.24.7). I really cannot understand why is all that bulshitting.Understand that fedora is a testing ground and now they are testing KDE4, so if you want to participate good, if not that just stay with Fedora 8. That is what I do. Anyway what that amazing do you expect that makes you burn from desire to upgrade?
There was a guy here , ah found it "15 • fedora must rethink of kde" that is going to dump fedora because of KDE. I think You must rethink your computer usage and needs! If you really think fedora was good before KDE4 than just stay with the good, if happen to like wasting your time in distrohopping than be it. good luck with ubuntu,debian,....and so forth.
Cheers
70 • Fedora 9 (by Jesse on 2008-05-19 16:31:19 GMT from Canada)
I am usually a bit cautious when it comes to upgrading my Fedora box. Their new releases are always on the cutting edge. However, Fedora 9 works very well for me. I had to tinker a bit to get proper video resolution and sound working, but otherwise I see it as a good release. My biggest joy is the speed. Fedora installed in 10 minutes for me (on a four year old box). (For comparison, Fedora 6 takes half an hour on the same hardware.) Yum is much much faster than it was in earlier Fedora releases and the system has (so far) been very stable. Granted, KDE is missing a lot of features, but it's a good preview of what's to come.
I can't recommend Fedora 9 to newbies, but an experienced Linux user or developer will likely be impressed with the work they've done.
71 • CentOS (by herman on 2008-05-19 16:41:09 GMT from Netherlands)
It seems a lot of Linux users are secretly looking for something they can just install and that will run problem-free for years, even on the desktop.
This might be Debian Stable, it might also be this Ubuntu LTS, but I wonder, how many people have actually taken a look at CentOS 5 on the desktop?
Very stable, very long support time. Only downside is its package selection is obviously less fresh than a 6 month-release-cycle-distro released this spring.
CentOS 5 might save you lots of time distrohopping.
72 • Comments section good for Microsoft (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-05-19 16:43:21 GMT from United States)
Wow its really amazing. How many of you people really know what you are talking about? Why do you think anybody here really cares if you had a hard time getting your wifi to work, or your video drivers to work without any efford, or your mouse to work? This don't work, that don't work, etc, etc, and so on. It seems that people post here because no one else will listen to their crap. If you have problems go to their support forums. Change distros., file a bug report. Do something useful and stop feeling sorry for yourself. If you can't say anything good here then why say anything at all. We've heard it all before. This comments section would be a great PR tool for Microsoft. All they would have to do is say is, "read this and see what linux gets you." You can flame me if you want and I don't care because its true. Think about it.
73 • Supergamer (by bob on 2008-05-19 16:43:25 GMT from United States)
Looks great. Now if every game developer would develop for Supergamer, people could just dual boot there OS with that and developers would only have to develop for one OS.
74 • Ubuntu Pagan Edition (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 16:46:03 GMT from United States)
Just waiting for UPE to be the next new edition.
75 • RE 71 I can answer for another fair RedHats clone (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 16:52:25 GMT from France)
"how many people have actually taken a look at CentOS 5 on the desktop?
"
I do not know, but for WhiteBoxen (another free and fair clone of Red Hat, developed by the librarians of the Beauregard Parish) I know at least 3 people... and it has been working for three years, day and nite, as desktops during working hours and tiny servers during nite...).
I only know of 2 bugs, one linked with gnome and one linked with almost any X server (I can reproduce the latter on any linux, whatever the age). The fist one was detected ... 15 days ago.
This makes one week "testing" (Fedora 9 was released 6 days ago) and drawing conclusions from one's experience that convincing....
76 • ... (by Amy on 2008-05-19 17:04:23 GMT from United States)
My first distro was red hat 6.5 I think and I got it from a computer book store.
I could not get it to even install.
I thought bought Mandrake 8.2 from amazon and it worked great and was a huge fan of it until they changed the name and I went looking for others.
As my last post says I tried ubuntu and could not get it to work the way I wanted. So got xandros and was a huge fan of it for a long time until I ran out of money and did not want to pay for the newest version.
I tried tried many and could not find one that did all that mandriva did. But I did find MEPIS and to this day thats still my all time favorite because I have not yet found one that does what it can do. How ever dream linux does come close just does not work with my wireless card.
So I do not go by how high up the ranks it is. I go by how easy it is to use and if it does what I need it.
At the moment MEPIS is still my favorite but that could change if some thing better comes out by another distro.
77 • Negative comments (by satan666 on 2008-05-19 17:27:49 GMT from Canada)
A small amount of negative comments is good just like the snake venom. A large amount kills. A small amount heals. However, negative comments directed at Windows and Windows-like distros (Suse, Xandros, Turbolinux, etc) is always good. The more negative comments the better.
78 • Agree with Ladislav (by tom on 2008-05-19 17:32:18 GMT from United States)
The essays on ideology and on the spewing of hatred of popular distributions are well stated. I agree completely.
It's also nice to see such sensible comments on Fedora, which seems to be a fantastic fun distro for hobbyists but is too difficult for simple desktop users like myself. Why don't more Linux "reviews" make so much sense?
KDE4 provides an easy way to determine which distros to try, because the developers that include this version of KDE certainly aren't aiming their product at users like me.
All in all, this is my favorite DistroWatch weekly of all. Don't know where you get the time to do it, let alone do it so right.
Herman... nice post and good recommendation, though many might prefer a distro that makes the proprietary stuff easier to install.
79 • No subject (by markus on 2008-05-19 17:42:32 GMT from Austria)
Hey, arent you attacking users that are critical?
I agree that EVERY comment about a distro should be accurate and critical.
People that mindlessly insult a distribution are bad.
BUT there is LEGIT criticism. I do so. And I will continue to do so.
If we do not talk about what is annoying, how will others know about it?
80 • Ubuntu (by Caraibes on 2008-05-19 17:48:51 GMT from Dominican Republic)
I just wanted to add my 2 cents to the discussion !
I would recommend Debian Stable as the very best distro out there. That is a mature enterprise-like distro, for people who actually don't just play with various distros (like I do, can't help trying various, after all these years...)...
For different reasons, when I re-built my main desktop, I ended-up installing Ubuntu 8.04 i386 (on an amd64 Sempron).
Everything worked well, no bugs on my side... Never had a single crash in FF3 (I use swfdec instead of Adobe Flash). I have my static IP up and running, All my regular apps, my Gnome desktop, and also Fluxbox & OpenBox to change every now and then... It just works...
For educational purposes, I triple-boot Arch & Slackware with my Hardy... I enjoyed learning lots of specific tricks with those 2, but I don't really see any speed improvements on my particular hardware, maybe it is because I have lots of ram (1gig)...
I might re-use another hdd to multiboot various 64bits distros, such as Debian Lenny, Sidux and... I don't know... just for fun...
Basically Ubuntu just worked for me, without any of the bad stuff read here and there... It makes it easier also, as I am using the same distro as some customers of mine (who escaped the Vista Nightmare !)
81 • Fedora 9 (by Woody Ochs on 2008-05-19 18:08:06 GMT from United States)
I'm not too sure which side of the bleeding edge this distribution occupies. I'll stick with Fedora 8 and Slackware 12.1 (an excellent release) and wait for a Fedora 10, or a possible Fedora 9.2 .
82 • Syncronising packages (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 18:15:49 GMT from Turkey)
Syncronising of packages between distros is good especially for microsoft. Power of linux against microsoft comes from its heterogenity. If ıt gets uniform-homogenous, microsoft can hit a visible target and we loose the joy of distro bashing forever.
83 • No subject (by lalala on 2008-05-19 18:15:50 GMT from United States)
Don't blame the opponents of ubuntu. Blame the fanboys that act as if everything in ubuntu is new & exciting & has never been done before. Blame those that act like there was no Linux before ubuntu came along. Blame those that are so stupid they think things like networkmanger was made specifically for ubuntu and no other distros had it before ubuntu.
These are only a few reasons why I hate ubuntu & its fanboys, I could go on and on with more reasons. It's the fanboys of ubuntu that are hurting Linux, don't you dare blame people who don't like ubuntu.
84 • ubuntu (by Jason on 2008-05-19 18:18:25 GMT from United States)
I think Ubuntu popularity is way overblown for both it's level of quality and what new stuff they bring to the party. I think what the haters are trying to do is pop it's balloon. I'd rather promote other distros that I think are better.
85 • release cycles (by john frey on 2008-05-19 18:41:56 GMT from Canada)
It's not so long ago (1yr. 2yr.??) this comments section was full of people wanting 6 month release cycles form all the major distros. At that time I was in favour of the 1yr release cycle or even a 9 month release cycle but everyone else seemed to be fixated on this 6 month thing.
Thankfully, now that we are seeing the results, people are starting to realize that a longer release cycle would be better. If only the distros would not have to consider the constant bashing of releases for using earlier versions of software than the current stable release. I hold the reviewers mainly responsible for this.
When an earlier release was new it was crucial to have it, then when there is another release that crucial release is garbage, old, junk. Why? It's not like it doesn't do the job it did before. There are rarely such astounding new features that the newest release is necessary. They are usually just evolutionary releases with refinements to the older features.
It seems that in the desire to rate things a newer release number means better. See comment #5 for an example of this blind adherence to release numbers, never mind that KDE4 is still beta and under heavy development.
I know we are conditioned through advertising and our culture of consumption to think we need the latest and if we don't have it we are missing out. I can hardly expect to change the culture but at least I can point out that this thinking is fallacious. Reviewers need something to criticise and laud. Revision numbers make a good target, they are easier to rate than personal likes and dislikes.
Most releases are pretty stable, or they would be if they didn't adhere to the 6 month release cycle and release beta software for major components like the desktop. Yes I'm looking at you Fedora.
Well that's what I have to say about it. cheers.
86 • Debian (by texasmike on 2008-05-19 18:49:43 GMT from United States)
For extreme stability, try Debian Etch. For leading edge, Debian Lenny or for bleeding edge, Debian Sid or Sidux. Or feel free to mix them up.
87 • Firefox 3 RC1 (by H-MC on 2008-05-19 18:52:38 GMT from Iran, Islamic Republic of)
Firefox 3 RC1 released :
http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/3.0rc1/releasenotes
88 • re 77 – didn't stop and think... (by vzduch on 2008-05-19 18:55:10 GMT from Germany)
Could it be that you are contradicting yourself? First, you call for negative comments not to take overhand, but then call for bashing some specific distros with masses of negative comments...
89 • re 19 – "Aurochs" (by vzduch on 2008-05-19 18:58:59 GMT from Germany)
*ROFLMAOBTC*
Different question: Anyone here tried the new Ark Linux roll and can say whether it will install/play nicely in a multi-boot environment? I remember a previous version eating the partition I installed it on and trying to label all other partitions as ext3 regardless of their file systems...
90 • Ladislav praising the "underdog" (#56) (by MSH on 2008-05-19 19:00:13 GMT from Canada)
So Ladislav decided he'd also praise the "underdog". Well. I don't believe it "has suddenly become the darling of the distro world" just because it's an underdog. It's *really* darn good. Just don't install from the Live-CD, though. Go for the 3 Free CDs.
91 • re 88 (by satan on 2008-05-19 19:02:55 GMT from Canada)
Yes, I stand by my comment. It makes perfect sense. Windows and Windows-like distros are an exception. For any other operating system negative comments are good in small amounts. For Windows and Windows-like distros lots of negative comments is a positive thing.
Every rule has an exception or two. So Suse is one of the exceptions.
I know you like Suse because you aer from Germany. If you want a german distro, go for PC-BSD. I don't use it myself but it is quite good.
92 • re 88 continued (by satan666 on 2008-05-19 19:05:09 GMT from Canada)
And PC-BSD does not have a patents deal with Microsoft.
93 • RE 79 I confirm one of my friends uses Aurochs....without acronyms (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 19:10:59 GMT from France)
(that makes think one is competent). and this friend is really competent (not the "I download, I try, I cry/I claim it is wonderful" distroshopper.....)
and that I _never_ saw the 8th wonder of the Free World, o so unfairly bashed, but soooo creative, sooooo bugless, with their original work (not copy and PR, of course) .... likewise because it is very quickly wiped off.....
*
If such an unknown distribution works, why not?
You are using Linux, unlike 99% of the people ===> must I say "ROFLMAOBTC" as you are an original?
94 • Ubuntu Hate (by Don on 2008-05-19 19:18:27 GMT from United States)
Having used Linux, and Windows by necessity in the business world, for as many years as either have existed, it's my feeling that the majority of Linux proponents want to keep Linux from being a truly popular and universally accepted OS. Rather, they'd prefer to keep the community to a small group of Linux and programming-oriented geeks - no average or typical computer user wanted or desired.
If Linux in general has any goal to be accepted universally on the desktop, this "closed fraternity attitude" has to change. But, I frankly doubt it ever will. Even the best distros still have a very hard time with relatively easy tasks in the Mac or Windows world, such as wireless networking.
I don't think the Linux community has anything to worry about - at least in the short term. Linux is still not ready for prime time by the "average" computer user who has no desire to use the command line or in programming.
I would guess that the Ubuntu haters are the ones who prefer to keep LInux to themselves as a technically-oriented avocational OS.
95 • Hmmm! (by dragonopolis on 2008-05-19 19:24:05 GMT from United States)
This technology versus ideology subject is a bit of a sore spot. I like Distrowatch, I really do, but there are times where Distrowatch seems a bit hypocritical and this subject area is one of them.
You cover commercial Linux vendors as well as Desktop Linux Distros that don't necessarily comply fully with the GPL or decide to be bed fellows with Microsoft. You list and cover the BSDs, OpenSolaris etc. When others complain, you simply restate that you are a "technology" site rather than "ideology" site.
This is all good as it is my philosophy as well. However there is one small hiccup which you seem to ignore over again but would fall under this supposed "technology" philosophy.
Distrowatch doesn't talk about or even mention about the Mac OSX.
Apple is a technology leader.
If this were a strictly Linux site I'd understand but you cover the other Unix OSes. Apple just got theirs certified as a Unix variant with Leopard so no excuses there.
Contrary to popular belief Apple developers do contribute to open source as well Apple's user base.
If Distrowatch can justify Novell then I don't see why the can't justify giving OSX news, especially since there is a lot of open source work that goes into it as well as commercial closed stuff.
Its time the Linux community stop hate'n and realize the work that goes on with this company. Sure, Apple may not follow the "ideology" but they are a factor when it comes to technology both in hardware and software - closed or open.
If Distrowatch is truly neutral, and focuses on technology, then OSX news would fit right in with the rest of what goes on.
However, Distrowatch does give the appearance of being choosy with their distros and not always clear with some ideology mixed in with technology.
With such confusion in your past coverings with distros and BSDs as well as your attempts to ignore another popular Unix OS its no wonder why you have a customer base so split as to what Distrowatch stands for.
I for one welcome the other Unix variants into the fold even Apple's OSX. I not much of a philosopher but I do agree with the idea that as long as technology is accessible to the end user whether it be by cost, code, ideology or a mixture of ways that if the technology is good then it is worth it.
Not all proprietary software is bad or buggy and definitely not all Open Source software is the greatest example of technology.
In the end, it is accessibility as well as usability that truly matters regardless of the license.
So why I was a bit critical, thats all it is is criticism. Take it for what its worth. I still come to Distrowatch to see whats up in the world nixes.
96 • re: 94 (by lalala on 2008-05-19 19:24:37 GMT from United States)
"I would guess that the Ubuntu haters are the ones who prefer to keep LInux to themselves as a technically-oriented avocational OS."
Your guess is wrong. Try reading around the net for the true reason ubuntu is hated. Reading my comment (#83) for a start.
97 • re 91 + 92 – "Windows-like distros" + SUSE (by vzduch on 2008-05-19 19:38:48 GMT from Germany)
Please define "Windows-like distros" – i.e., what makes a distro "Windows-like"?
Speaking about SUSE, it is, imho, a very solid distro with a sound user and developer base and a friendly community as far as I can tell. SUSE 9.3 was a landmark release towing me to the Linux side for good, and while the first 10.x releases definitely had their weaknesses, openSUSE 10.2 and 10.3 are very solid with no big or nagging issues, at least for me. I'll probably wait with installing 11.0 (due to release next month) until KDE 4.1 is available and reports about its usability are in.
What I could spontaneously think about when hearing that SUSE be "Windows-like" is e.g. the relatively new one-click install system which basically does nothing else than add one or more repository/-ies and download and install the specified software via the package management system. So while it appears to be Winodws-like, under the hood it's all *n*x-typical. When it comes to appearance and behaviour, the scholars disagree whether KDE or Gnome is more Windows-like. But anyway, obvious similarities to (familiar) Windows circumstances tend to attract new users, which is the only way to get a growing user base. It's up to the users whether they will 'evolve' to ways that the more tech-savvy *n*x user will find more 'natural' in a *n*x environment or not. But e.g. clicking behaviour being like it is on Windows might have made one or the other Linux user's life a bit less troublesome in the past. :) Still, this is not to say that a distro appearing Windows-ish is (entirely) the distributor's fault – it is also due to the desktop environment makers and their users who create tons of eye candy for their favourite DE/window manager.
The Microsoft-Novell deal – no word on that here as I haven't gotten around to read what is known about it as of yet. But I highly doubt that it's 'the end of the Linux world as we know it' – people who insist on the opposite still have to prove their point, imho.
And, to be honest, I haven't looked at PC-BSD yet. Mainly because I am not into the *BSDs, and am a bit reluctant to get into a third platform. Reason? Perhaps negative pre-experience with FreeBSD 4.8. (Which can lead into wrong prejudices, I know – same with Debian, where Woody and Etch are a huge difference.)
98 • INfo 68 : thgere are simpler source oriented distrs than Gentoo... (by dbrion on 2008-05-19 19:40:44 GMT from France)
you " have recently acquired a taste for compiling my application from source. Next stop: Gentoo!
"
Perhaps before Gentoo, you could try to read LFS and BLFS (released last week) : they give details about the way softs are configured and compiled, and , if needed, modified. This is however an "half Gentoo", as you have no package manager (need to remove by yourself and use your memory for dependance managing), but its being fractional makes it simpler than Gentoo, meseems.
I was glad to use it as a manuel that week end to add my favorite applications and their missing dependencies to PCBSD-alpha1 (the newer has not yet a package manager...)
99 • re 95 (by satan666 on 2008-05-19 19:42:59 GMT from Canada)
As much as I hate Microsoft and anyone that collaborates with Microsoft (see Suse) I must admit that compared to Apple, Microsoft is more open. Why would DistroWatch host news about the most closed OS in the history of computers?
100 • No subject (by Rahul Sundaram on 2008-05-19 19:44:51 GMT from India)
" But the probability of non-detecting bugs is likely (correct me if I am wrong) to be exponential with the number of lines ..."
Fedora has a policy of staying close to upstream as much as possible.
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WhyUpstream
This means various upstream projects including Linux kernel would directly accept bug reports against the Fedora kernel. Fedora as a distribution does not really have to manage all the potential work. That indeed would be a enormous undertaking but no distribution can or needs to do that at all. That's the advantage of a common codebase.
101 • Fedora 9 (by speedygeo on 2008-05-19 19:46:22 GMT from Romania)
I installed Fedora 9 KDE in Virtualbox.
It is wonderful to see KDE 4 and Firefox 3 (that I installed) in the same distribution.
But I will not install Fedora 9.
I love the latest software, I use sidux (Debian sid KDE that is optimized for desktop/laptop). But I can't use KDE 4 and Firefox 3 now. Sidux permit me to use the latest software on a production system!!!!
102 • Free/Open Software (by speedygeo on 2008-05-19 19:51:31 GMT from Romania)
Who are looking for security and freedom to keep his privacy must use only free software, open source at least. We can't consider proprietary software, or closed source, to respond to a good security criteria.
103 • re 97 (by satan666 on 2008-05-19 20:02:04 GMT from Canada)
By "Windows-like distros" I mean distros that have a patent deal with Microsoft. I agree with you that a user-friendly distro is better than a geeky one. I myself use a Linux distro that is extremely user friendly. Suse is probably a nice distro. Their only problem is that they belong to Novell. Novell seems poised to bring to Linux the Microsoft stuff: patents, Mono, Moonlight, OOXML etc. Novell contributes 9% to the Linux kernel. So what? Compared to all the things mentioned earlier, it's nothing. I'd rather see Novell (and their Microsoft projects) disappear forever and miss their 9% contribution to the kernel. RedHat contributes more to the kernel and refused the patents deal.
I refuse to have dll files on my computer. I refuse to use Microsoft technology. I refuse to be protected by a patents deal. And I urge everybody to refuse to be protected by a patents deal.
104 • re 93 – "Aurochs" (by vzduch on 2008-05-19 20:03:57 GMT from Germany)
dbrion: Did you get what I find so funny about "Aurochs"? Anyone who knows German probably will... ;)
105 • Another suggestion about Mandriva + comments on Distrowatch OS choices (by MSH on 2008-05-19 20:28:25 GMT from Canada)
Mandriva: Go for KDE, not GNOME. GNOME is a bad joke, too buggy. Sorry, I won't discuss this choice. You want to know better? Check for yourself. Just don't believe GNOME is THE standard for Linux GUI.
I agree with dragonopolis (#95) that if the BSDs and Suse and Xandros and OpenSolaris have their place at Distrowatch, so should OS X and whoever has ever released 5 lines of free code. That should, or certainly eventually could, include Microsoft.
The alternative, of course, would be to define acceptability for Distrowatch publication by "GPLed and no alliance with non-GPLed aoftware". That's certainly my criterion for the distro I use.
I really don't appreciate to see Apple grabbing its kernel from Carnegy-Mellon U, the rest of the OS from FreeBSD and contributing next to nothing in exchange so they can sell their plain CISC, little endian -- yeah, the "so superior big endian" excuse is long gone! -- computers for twice the price while grabby Jobs collects $660 millions a year (2006) from the work of others.
Apple is a rotten one in the barrel, a Reality Distortion Field Leader. Oh yeah, they do contribute to Darwin. Who the hell has any interest in using Darwin when OS X comes bundled with every computer Apple sells?
106 • RE: # 52 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 20:34:32 GMT from Italy)
"How did the beginners react when they realised the 8 wonder of the Free World had ... "lots of bugs", with a 6 months renewal cycle?"
By going back to Windows, of course. Bingooo!!! Does it suggest anything to you?
And BTW, which Linux company's CEO said that Ubuntu exists for the sole purpose of destroying all other distributions that exist on the market?
107 • Improved ISO downloads (by Ant Bryan on 2008-05-19 20:47:23 GMT from United States)
openSUSE & Ubuntu are offering metalinks for downloads, which increases reliability and error correction while listing all mirrors in one file.
will DistroWatch ever mention metalinks? there are still users & distros out there that don't know about the benefits. :)
108 • RE: # 94,96 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-19 21:16:42 GMT from Italy)
Don wrote:
"I would guess that the Ubuntu haters are the ones who prefer to keep LInux to themselves as a technically-oriented avocational OS"
lalala replied:
"Your guess is wrong. Try reading around the net for the true reason ubuntu is hated. Reading my comment (#83) for a start."
Exactly. Before Ubuntu, Mandriva (Mandrake) was the top distro for new users. I never really disliked it. I only mildly criticized it for its bugs and for the management's greedy practices.
Same with PCLinuxOS: *never* a word against it while it was on top.
Hell, I even supported Linspire (then called Lindows) with $100 because I believed that bringing Linux to the masses was good.
But you can't bring Linux to the masses with a buggy, ugly distribution. That is more like committing suicide (is that done on purpose???)
109 • No subject (by Tony on 2008-05-19 22:04:13 GMT from United States)
Your stance on ideology and popular distros is one of the most sensible I've heard in a long time and I commend you for bringing it up on Distrowatch Weekly.
110 • It's KDE's fault, not Fedora's (by Pumpino on 2008-05-19 22:06:29 GMT from Australia)
I've always been a KDE user. I switched to Fedora as my main OS a few months ago, although I've dabbled in it on and off over the years. I was very excited about the release of Fedora 9 and when KDE4 turned out to be completely unusable, I was determined to stick with Fedora, despite my disappointment. I reluctantly installed Gnome and after a weekend of tweaking, found that I could set up Gnome to work in a similar way to KDE. An added bonus was that the desktop was much faster and responsive, fonts looked better, and GTK applications such as Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice and gFTP looked great without having to install gtk-qt-engine (which is buggy in Fedora and caused issues with the toolbar in OpenOffice).
Fedora's policy is to provide the latest packages. Therefore, I blame KDE for the pathetic v4.0.3. If 4.0 is supposed to be a technology preview, why not keep releasing betas until it's ready, rather than confusing everyone by saying that 4.0 is a preview and 4.1 should be stable? KDE has irreversibly tarnished the great reputation it built with the solid 3.5 series. I can't believe I've "defected" to Gnome, but KDE4 will soon become the default in most distros, and I have little confidence that 4.1 will reverse the reduced functionality introduced by 4.0.
111 • To Ladislav (by Pumpino on 2008-05-19 22:17:04 GMT from Australia)
Ladislav, your initial impression of F9 with KDE4 in last week's DWW was very positive. Your comments about F9 in this week's DWW and your comment above suggest that this view has changed. Have you stuck with KDE4 or have you switched to Gnome or another distro?
112 • RE: 111 To Ladislav (by ladislav on 2008-05-19 22:23:51 GMT from Taiwan)
Yes, I am still on Fedora 9 with KDE 4. My positive impression of Fedora 9 was mostly caused by its speed, but I've noticed some of the complaints of users on various forums and mailing lists and I thought I'd mention it here for the benefit of those who are thinking about upgrading.
113 • Gaming on Linux (by Mikademus on 2008-05-19 22:54:26 GMT from Sweden)
A special distro --SuperGamer-- for games on Linux, well, that might perhaps be nice and all, but wouldn't it be better to put those efforts into developing Wine's DirectX support?
114 • Re: Ubututu show me your patches! (by Eddy Nigg on 2008-05-20 00:09:47 GMT from Israel)
To Béranger: Patches are submitted to projects, they are produced in collaboration with the project or at least requested for approval and inclusion in the tree. Sorry, can't see that wherever I'm active. Nope, Ubuntu doesn't contribute to OSS projects. Which patches were included lately in the Kernel, Mozilla, OpenOffice, GNOME or any other significant project? Maybe I simply don't know and my impression is incorrect.
115 • Fedora 9 (by Rich on 2008-05-20 00:12:14 GMT from United States)
I'm a PCLinuxOS fan, have used and run Ubuntu, Kubuntu and thought I'd give Fedora 9 a try. This is the first Fedora distribution I've been able to get up and running with little hassle. Can't say that KDE 4 is an improvement but time will tell. So far I'm pleasantly suprised by how well it (Fedora 9) actually works. No complaints here.
Rich
116 • Why did the chicken cross the road? (by Ultra on 2008-05-20 00:19:01 GMT from Canada)
Bill Gates:
I have just released eChicken2007, which will not only cross roads, but will lay eggs, file your important documents, and balance your check book. Internet Explorer is an integral part of the Chicken. This new platform is much more stable and will never cra...#@&&^C% ...... reboot.
Linus Torvalds:
Honestly, I don't care why. But if the chicken wants to cross the road, the Linux kernel will get him there.
117 • No subject (by changturkey on 2008-05-20 00:40:44 GMT from Canada)
I like Ubuntu because many of the project pages for some of the best Cross Platform/Linux software already have the most up to date binary packages available, if they are already not in the backports.
Btw, when is the next PCLOS release?
118 • Something different. (by anticapitalista on 2008-05-20 00:47:25 GMT from Greece)
Anyone of you have the time to try antiX-M7.2 instead of bickering about X distro over Y and Z?
Thanks to Ladislav for the screenie in this weeks DW.
119 • 118 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-20 01:01:23 GMT from United States)
Okay, I'm downloading it now. Still hoping you will release a version for i386. I've got a really old box that AntiX would be perfect for. Unless I'm understanding wrong, the software for Spartacus is now getting kind of old.
You're doing good work, I'll see what M7.2 has to offer.
120 • Re: Ubuntu Stability (by VH on 2008-05-20 01:02:43 GMT from United States)
I feel compelled to weigh in on the subject of Ubuntu 8.04 stability. I have been using it since its formal release in April and can only praise the rock solid stability of this version. Not only is it amazingly stable but it has a noticeable snappiness to it. Part of that snappiness may be due to Firefox 3 which I find very pleasurable to use and quite responsive. Overall 8.04 has very slick and professional feel to it. One thing to note is that I keep compiz-fusion turned off. Those of you having stability problems should try turning compiz-fusion completely off and see if your stability improves. I am betting that it will.
121 • Ubuntu Hate (by Joe on 2008-05-20 01:04:26 GMT from United States)
Never seems to amaze me about people. Bitch about how Linux isn't becoming main stream and how MS has control over it. Then a distro starts to really make in roads to the main stream and they bitch that its not the right distro to do it.
People are never happy. Probably one reason why Linux, if VERY lucky will never beat out MS....... It will be death from within with petty bickering!!!!!
122 • #117 (by John on 2008-05-20 01:18:18 GMT from United States)
Since PCLinux is a rolling release, just upgrading via Synaptic will eventually convert 2007 to 2008 when that comes out (according to the forum, if everything goes as planned, beta by the end of may, and 2008 by June). However, it's probably going to take longer than that if issues pop up during testing. Tex and the Ripper gang go by the motto "it's ready when it's ready", which is to their credit (I've seen Clem from Linux Mint say something to that effect as well).
That's not to say that PCLinux or other distros that aren't "bleeding edge" are better than others who push the envelope, it's just a different point of view. I have great respect for the other distros (Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse, Warren/Mephis, Clem/Mint, Andrew/Mandriva, etc)and developers, and I simply can't understand all the anger here. These people are doing a VERY hard job, and we should support Linux..and the developers... as best we can.
I think Texstar makes a great point in his interview by Italy Linux Magazine (4/2008):
(Question)Do you think that PCLinuxOS could fight Ubuntu or other major GNU/Linux distributions?
(Texstar) We don't have their money, that's for sure. We're a genuine community distro. We're not about fighting other distros. They all have their place. Ubuntu has done great things getting the word out there is an alternative OS available and you dont have to be tied down to one operating system dictating how you can use your computer. This means there are more computer users trying Linux and overall this means more users will be testing the waters trying various Linux versions to find the one that works best with their hardware and meets their needs. This benefits all distributions.
123 • re. 103 (by uz64 on 2008-05-20 01:31:54 GMT from United States)
"I refuse to have dll files on my computer. I refuse to use Microsoft technology."
It never fails to crack me up when I see someone, in reference to Mono, say that they do not want .dll files on their computer. As if a dynamically linked library is the spawn of Satan or something. I can understand not wanting to use a Microsoft-derived technology as mono, but come on, just because it uses .dlls? Sounds pretty pathetic to me. I wonder what percentage of people who say things like this use something like Flash, or at least have it installed... I'm guessing a pretty high percent. Or maybe even the occasional Wine usage.
124 • nice... (by terlmann on 2008-05-20 01:52:47 GMT from United States)
All good news, so to speak.
When are you going to review SymphonyOS 2008?
125 • REF# 118 - antiX-M7.2 (by verndog on 2008-05-20 02:14:19 GMT from United States)
I'm using ubuntu on my main computer and I'm very pleased with it.
I do have an older compaq, P3, 300 or 400 mhz. I would have to do loopback install. I did get Slackware installed using that method. Would antiX-M7.2 work with my older laptop?
My cd drive is unreliable and the usb ports won't allow booting because the BIOS doesn't have the option.
I've heard good comments regarding antiX-M7.2, by the way
126 • No subject (by khai on 2008-05-20 03:07:45 GMT from Canada)
Thank you Ladislav for an excellent feature story of this week, where you explained your standpoint to common controversy.
I like your approach and it's the reason, why many of us return to this website so often.
127 • 85 • release cycles (by johncoom on 2008-05-20 03:37:25 GMT from Australia)
I agree, a 6 month release cycle is a silly thing and some thing imposed by supposed Whiz-Kids and the not so wise distro management (to suit their own ends perhaps). It is certainly got nothing to do with what the majority of END USES want.
Do the various culprit teams of distro creators actually think that non-geeks that may get attracted to a Linux Distro actually want to spend their time having to re-install twice a year :-( The answer is a no brainer
NO ONE WANTS TO DO IT TWICE A YEAR (fanatics or geeks excepted)
Much longer release cycle like one year is far more acceptable. (hopefully less bugs)
Or better still turn your distro into a Rolling Release one.
(re-issue's only when a new gcc compiler forces you to, much more sence)
128 • RE 118 I was amazed by AntiX low RAM greediness (by dbrion on 2008-05-20 04:36:37 GMT from France)
when I tested her as a live CD this week end (top gave me ca 20 M, if my memory is good, which leaves a lot of RAM for the user on a standard PC); else, I found the transparency effects on terminals rather unpleasant (but who uses terminals, today?it is an obsolete technology).... this is the only very little flaw I found....
129 • RE 103 Redhat and the dlls hell... (by dbrion on 2008-05-20 04:54:21 GMT from France)
"RedHat contributes more to the kernel and refused the patents deal.
I refuse to have dll files on my computer."
@Satan :
from the very first line of Cygwin's home page
"Cygwin is a Linux-like environment for Windows. It consists of two parts:
A DLL (cygwin1.dll) which acts as a Linux API emulation layer providing substantial Linux API functionality. "
FYI cygwin is a bright idea of Redhat (http://www.redhat.com/software/cygwin/) to, either :
give a *nix like environment to the MS Windows users, to get them accustomed to linux (if their HW is not yet recognised by Linux, say)...
or make them keeping Windows, which becomes ..; much better..
130 • cygwin (by Anonymous on 2008-05-20 05:43:05 GMT from France)
Cygnus was bought by Red Hat. It was a bright idea from cygnus. But yes, now Cygnus is indeed Red Hat.
131 • Re: #78 - KDE4 provides an easy way... (by Ariszló on 2008-05-20 07:08:44 GMT from Hungary)
Tome wrote: KDE4 provides an easy way to determine which distros to try, because the developers that include this version of KDE certainly aren't aiming their product at users like me.
Then how about distributions that ship both like Kubuntu or openSUSE?
132 • @ 128 dbrion (by arno911 on 2008-05-20 07:53:29 GMT from Germany)
from all your statements on dww, that was the dumbest ive ever read. very untypical for you:
... (but who uses terminals, today?it is an obsolete technology)... ...
a decent terminal is what more professional user demanded for years from Microsoft.
a decent terminal is what makes the difference between stupid GUIs for mouse acrobats and pure magic.
a decent terminal is why I use linux:
example: what do you do if Nero wont work? ask a friend to burn a CD for you?
What do I do if K3B wont do it? Well all it needs is to copy the command from the error report, paste it into the bash and my CD is done. funny isnt it? the same command the GUI used with no success, works for me? I wont go into this...
The terminal ALWAYS works. there is nothing more userfriendly than a working application. fancy colors are not made to work, commands are not made to look good.
oh, and btw antiX is impressive. im still using the RC, cause its flawless for what i use it for.
133 • No subject (by arno911 on 2008-05-20 07:54:43 GMT from Germany)
I can only hope it was a joke...
134 • Split kdebase in DW tables (by Ariszló on 2008-05-20 08:14:27 GMT from Hungary)
Ladislav,
Could you split the kdebase row into kdebase3 & kdebase4, please? As it is now, it is impossible to figure out from your tables whether a distribution only provides KDE4 like Fedora or both KDE3 and KDE4 like Kubuntu or openSUSE.
135 • RE 133 : A decent terminal is why I use Cygwin at work.... (by dbrion on 2008-05-20 08:18:35 GMT from France)
(I have remote connection to *n*x*s)
And it is the first thing I open when I try to play with a Linux (though it did not work with ... three /2+1 /successive versions of Zenwalk => was kept undetected.... why? you see a terminal does not ALWAYS work; releases noise does and is a priority....)
But , maybe, we are ignoring the great (technical, of course : nothing with unthought fashion) Future of OSes....
Re 133 I wish I were joking...
136 • @91 "satan" (by Anonymous on 2008-05-20 10:00:42 GMT from France)
"I know you like Suse because you aer from Germany."
You know, when you write stuff like this, you make it unlikely anyone will take your other comments seriously.
137 • RE@91 (by NN on 2008-05-20 11:33:29 GMT from United States)
I was SuSe user long time ago and it was IMO good distribution. I was upset when they sold a company to Novell and now I am upset more...(Novel - MS). And BTW I never had M$ on my computer: DOS - OS/2 - Linux - FreeBSD.
138 • re 136 (by satan666 on 2008-05-20 11:44:57 GMT from Canada)
> "You know, when you write stuff like this, you make it unlikely anyone will take your other comments seriously."
I have no proof that what I said is true but as an indication that I was not far from truth is the fact that the guy was interested in another German distro even if he was not really a BSD fan. So I still think I'm right.
139 • re: 110 (by lalala on 2008-05-20 11:45:13 GMT from United States)
No, it's Fedora's fault, not KDE's. openSUSE 11 has a great implementation of KDE, and they're using the same KDE files as Fedora, but Fedora can't be bothered to do any sort of work to make KDE users happy.
140 • re 129 (dbrion) (by satan666 on 2008-05-20 11:52:24 GMT from Canada)
> @Satan :
from the very first line of Cygwin's home page
"Cygwin is a Linux-like environment for Windows. It consists of two parts:
A DLL (cygwin1.dll) which acts as a Linux API emulation layer providing substantial Linux API functionality. "
.....................................................................................................................
What does it have to do with what I said?
I said I dislike Windows stuff and I refuse to use it. That's Linux on top of Windows. I don't use Windows. My computer is still dll free. Cygwin doesn't have anything to do with what I said. If people use Windows and on top of it use Cygwin I don't give a flying ****.
Novell promotes Windows stuff in Linux environment.
RedHat promotes Linux stuff in Windows environment.
Are you able to see the difference?
141 • ubuntu hate (by @121 on 2008-05-20 11:53:05 GMT from United States)
Why don't you read around the net as to why ubuntu is hated before you start spouting off, not knowing what your talking about.
Your last sentence just plain stupid:
"People are never happy. Probably one reason why Linux, if VERY lucky will never beat out MS....... It will be death from within with petty bickering!!!!!"
From this sentence you are saying that Linux will be lucky to never beat Microsoft (MS will remain #1) and that Linux will die from bickering. You really need to stop & think before you type.
142 • @Statan : Yes; there are holy dlls and unholy ones (by Anonymous on 2008-05-20 11:59:44 GMT from France)
but giving Redhat as an example leads to obvious contradictions in 2 lines ....I hope You are able to figure out.
You can also make dlls on a pure Linux with a cross compiler to give (virus free, tested on Linux) applications (why should they remain on linux?).
143 • Ubuntu (by M on 2008-05-20 12:15:17 GMT from Australia)
Mint is my least favourite distro because it runs the most bloat.
The new Ubuntu is right up there with it.
Ubuntu good points.
Large repos,easy install,plenty of good gui stuff for beginners, good community
Bad points
Bloat , too many ?buntus,
On hanging - I have had problems with recent kernels that seem to be ACPI related.
Adding ACPI=off to the grub line seems to be the simplest fix.
144 • eAR OS (by Anonymous on 2008-05-20 12:21:32 GMT from United States)
Is this the first pornographic linux distro? eAR OS ~ eros. Although there apparently is already an "eros" operating system at the University of Pennsylvania, but it's not linux.
145 • re 142 (by satan666 on 2008-05-20 12:23:00 GMT from Canada)
Yes you can make dlls on Linux but you shouldn't. Why should the Linux developers copy Windows? Why is C Shit err... Sharp present in Linux? What can C# do and Java or C++ (with Qt or Gtk) can't do?
146 • @ 143 (by corneliu on 2008-05-20 12:34:02 GMT from Canada)
It's funny that you don't want a bloated OS but you chose Ubuntu.
I installed Ubuntu and right at boot it took 150Mb of RAM before started any application.
I installed Mandriva with KDE (supposedly heavier than Gnome) and it took 80Mb of RAM. Almost half.
I know Mandriva is not the leanest OS out there but I think Ubuntu is bloated.
147 • Qu 146 How did you test ? (by dbrion on 2008-05-20 13:59:01 GMT from France)
I am surprised with the leaness of Mandriva : maybe you selected in an "expert" mode your favorite applications, having less than the default (I tried it with Mandriva 2008.1-alpha-2, with Gnome, Kde and ICEWM enabled and many applications : there was no difference (< 10 M) between Gnome and KDE, and ICEWM remained leaner (80M more for me I could verify with top).
If UBUlinux has no "expert" (that is a kind term) mode in installing, she might have many apps preinstalled by default, and ready to start, thus leading to some bloat.... If your fav. applications are in KDE, they can work on Gnome, but I naively feel they will need more ressources. I hope this are not too naive "explanations".
148 • Constructive Criticism @ Ladislav (by Anonymous on 2008-05-20 14:11:20 GMT from United States)
Mark Shuttleworth's recent suggestion to synchronise distribution releases in order to coordinate bug-fixing work was greeted with a suspicion that he merely wants "to benefit from a lot of work that Novell and Red Hat are already doing in the enterprise space."
I don't think it's suspicious, I think its just a pipe dream to believe that synchronized releases with the same package versions will benefit anyone within the OSS community. The argument that Shuttleworth laid out for the idea is what makes it a pipe dream. He implies that hardware companies that currently don't support the Linux kernel will suddenly find it worthwhile to support and will start writing drivers for their hardware for inclusion in the kernel if all of the enterprise distributions released in a synchronized manner. The hardware companies that don't support Linux aren't going to suddenly start writing drivers or supplying firmware just because the version numbers are suddenly the same across all distributions. Realistically, the only people that this idea would benefit would be the people writing and selling proprietary software on linux as they wouldn't have to worry about supplying the various libs that their program was compiled against in order for their software to work.
As an example, Mandriva 2008.1 comes with KDE 3.5.9, Firefox 2 and working NVIDIA drivers - all stable and well-tested software.
The 169.12 drivers aren't really working drivers, they have a nasty DXT5 compression rendering bug and report some EDID's incorrectly (EXTREMELY important with recent versions of xorg) so while you might think that they are working they really aren't working the way they should be working.
Vesa always works but no one ever brags about shipping a working vesa driver ;-P
149 • 144 • eAR OS (by anticapitalista on 2008-05-20 14:21:00 GMT from Greece)
Just to be pedantic, eros has nothing to do with pornography.
150 • re 147 (by corneliu on 2008-05-20 14:30:33 GMT from Canada)
Yes, I choose "Custom Install". I don't install any desktop environment, no X server, just the base system.
After Mandriva is installed I use urpmi to load the minimal KDE (the command is "urpmi kdebase")
After that I add the applications that I need.
One of the packages is "kdeaddons-kicker-applets" and if i'm not mistaken it contains a tray applet that measures the RAM and CPU. I add the applet to the task bar. That applet shows around 80Mb, sometimes more, sometime less. The least that it showed was 66Mb.
151 • @150 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-05-20 16:09:49 GMT from Canada)
Then I have to say you're really not making a fair comparison, though it's a comparison which highlights an advantage of having a 'complex' install process available versus not having a complex install approach available. :) You could likely strip a functional Ubuntu desktop down to use the same amount of memory in the same way. There's very little distributors can do to affect how much memory any given application takes up on their distro versus anyone else's distro (barring odd scenarios like building something with GTK+ 1 instead of GTK+ 2, but of course, that's hardly a no-trade saving). The only thing we do that really affects memory usage is deciding what stuff to install by default. I'd imagine if you took all the leading distros and tweaked them so that, as far as possible, the same set of processes was active, you'd get very similar memory usage results.
152 • RE 147 Thanks, I did not know one could have such a tiny KDE (by dbrion on 2008-05-20 16:10:41 GMT from France)
with Mandriva to day.
But, if UBUlinux has not such options, it might be impossible or very difficult (they claim to be beginner's friendly, however) to reproduce the same configuration and a comparison might be felt unfair...
153 • re 151 and 152 (by corneliu on 2008-05-20 16:26:00 GMT from Canada)
I don't really care if the comparison is fair or not. I only want a lean and mean OS that has nice configuration tools. I checked many distros before. None of them has configuration tools as good as Mandriva's.
154 • Re: 121 • Ubuntu Hate (by Anon. on 2008-05-20 18:03:18 GMT from Norway)
Damn right.
Ubuntu is the best that has happened to Linux since kernel 2.x. Too many Linux users seem to think that computing is about the OS. It isn't. No computer user should have to think, much less know anything, about the operating system. Computing is about getting certain tasks done as efficiently as possible. Full stop. When efficiency is not the goal, we may as well use pen and paper.
When somebody says he doesn't like e.g. Ubuntu because he can't stand its users, we have proof that Ubuntu is on the right track.
155 • re: 154 ubu hate (by ray carter at 2008-05-20 18:12:46 GMT from United States)
"No computer user should have to think, much less know anything, about the operating system."
You are correct only to a degree. Similarly one can argue that no driver should have to think, much less know anything about how a car works. Maybe, but when you are stuck out in the woods it's nice to at least know how to change a tire.
156 • @154 (by lalala on 2008-05-20 18:30:19 GMT from United States)
How the hell is ubuntu doing something right when its users are hated? Typical ubuntu fanboy comment. You make a statement with no evidence or elaboration to back it up.
157 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-20 19:24:50 GMT from Canada)
Ubuntu is treated like that and nobody answers?
I thought we were in for a nice debate.
158 • ear os (by not good on 2008-05-20 19:32:04 GMT from Australia)
I see that not only does the author of this site edit other peoples posts but he also moves ubuntu based distros off the waiting list in 1 day and leaves other more worthwhile distros on the waiting list for years
159 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-20 19:45:40 GMT from France)
The beta of Ulteo is out: "It's been designed for individuals and corporate users who need to use both Linux and Windows applications within the same desktop environement." with coLinux.
Not sure what all the fuzz was about.
http://www.ulteo.com/home/en/virtualdesktop
160 • @155 • re: 154 ubu hate (by john frey on 2008-05-20 19:57:44 GMT from Canada)
Not to mention drivers should know about regular maintenance beyond filling the gas tank once in a while. So should computers users be able to do some minimal maintenance like regular security updates.
"No computer user should have to think..." I'm pretty sure they've got that one down.:)
161 • Re: 155/156 - Ubuntu (by Anon. on 2008-05-20 20:11:26 GMT from Norway)
@ray carter
Yes, it can be useful to know how to change a tire, just like it is *useful* to know how to change or add an extra harddisk to the box. However, nobody, not even experts, can fix a modern car problem themselves - too many proprietary and sealed(!) computer circuits... My point, however, is that an OS should be as invisible as possible to the user, but by no means inaccessible. The computer enthusiast should be able to tinker to his heart's content, which is what open source and Linux is offering. A casual user, on the other hand, should not have to think. Or at least not have to think more about the computer system innards than we do when using our fridge or television set.
@lalala
Well, I am a Ubuntu fan in as much as I welcome Canonical's success in attracting hordes of new users to Linux. You see, when people meet, chaos ensues. When the tranquil Linux scene is suddenly crowded with noobs, some Linux snobs start talking about 'hate'. What nonsense. The 'hate' somebody are mumbling about is just attitude. They'll get over it eventually.
162 • Re: 160 - Ubuntu (by Anon. on 2008-05-20 20:25:26 GMT from Norway)
@john frey
Hehe :)
Okay, the reality is probably to be found somewhere near the middle whatever. After all, even a TV remote control must be understood to some degree... :)
163 • novell and ubuntu hate (by linuxdog on 2008-05-20 20:33:51 GMT from United States)
at one time novell was a very strong corporation and i also disagreed with its bond to microtra$h. a former suse owner, paid for...i dropped suse when it went downhill.
i dont believe boycotting novell/suse will do anything more than what many have already done. dismissed it out of their life.
ubuntu hate, i can understand...i found i did not care for it because of its recoding to extent it was not even close to debian. i did find the most acceptable version of ubuntu is actually MINT. mint has come a long ways and does continue to improve nicely.
the company you mention that dont trust mark shuttleworth was one of the best ever then it also got so greedy that it shot itself in the foot.
i tried it last year and it still was relegated to useless.
overall for the beginner, aside from the small linux such as dam small or puppy i do find pcoslinux and mint the top two.
164 • Ideology has its limited space (by KimTjik on 2008-05-20 22:31:38 GMT from Sweden)
I'm more than happy about for DW policy of: "... we don't intend to turn DistroWatch into a portal promoting ideological purity of software...". That would definitely scare folks off from trying out free software, especially since our comments here tend to be over the top anyway! ;)
Groklaw is a good site, written with a sense of humour, and usually keeps an informative approach while avoiding mocking everything and everybody. I'm not so sure I could say the same in reference to the other examples.
Béranger seems to be in constant rage, with some few exceptions. I found some articles interesting but I can't stand the constant bullying and harassment of folks actually supporting and promoting free software (even though they might not comply to every letter of "the law"). The site has in my view a pharasaical spirit. So even though his intention might be good, it might just as well hurt the status of the GLP among common free software users (in view of the language it's difficult for me to distinguish the sentiment of ego from matter).
I do realize that some "insanity" is needed to get to terms with some threats to free software. Still I think it's important to be reasonable; ideology or its interpretations tend to distract and tear apart.
165 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-21 01:30:50 GMT from United States)
>>> No computer user should have to think, much less know anything, about the operating system.
Unfortunately in the real world those operating systems don't exist. Many, many users thought they didn't have to know anything to use Windows. Now they know lots about spyware, viruses, and other security problems.
I can make an OS that doesn't require the user to know anything. It wouldn't do much, but I could put it together. We use computers to do complicated things. Complicated things are, by definition, not mindless.
166 • RE: # 165 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-21 02:04:01 GMT from Italy)
I second what you say. I started with Windows (like I suppose many of us) and it took me 1 year to learn. Not even all that well.
After so many years, i still don't know an awful lot about Windows (who cares?)
If you don't want to learn anything you'll end up like a friend of mine, calling an engineer every time you have the slightest problem, and you do have a lot with Windows! (I can't help her because she lives a bit too far away).
167 • RE: # 154 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-21 02:21:44 GMT from Italy)
"Ubuntu is the best that has happened to Linux since kernel 2.x. Too many Linux users seem to think that computing is about the OS. It isn't. No computer user should have to think, much less know anything, about the operating system. Computing is about getting certain tasks done as efficiently as possible. Full stop. When efficiency is not the goal, we may as well use pen and paper."
Trouble is that in the practical experience of somebody who has installed Ubuntu at least on 5 computers (somebody with years of Linux experience and countless installs of hundreds of distros, that is me) is that Ubuntu never works out of the box. On the contrary, the bugs can be so annoying that it is not worth bothering. Slackware is a walk in the park by comparison (because one thing is having to configure your OS, another is having to deal with bugs if you are not a dev)
If you wanted that kind of OS, Xandros and pre-Ubuntu Linspire were *a lot* better. Pity that they are almost dead.
168 • Computer Plyabiltity (by Landor on 2008-05-21 08:14:01 GMT from Canada)
I started off using PC-DOS, messed around with a copy of UNIX, then BSD, then Linux and even used DOS-Linux (anyone remember that?) didn't use windows until 98se, and still would've and did use Linux or a more powerful OS than Windows. I can count more people I know personally that would tell you they'd rather have knowledge about their system than just click the BIg Blue E like they're mindless, than those that would say the opposite.
This is a debate that we had say 25 years ago and still will in another 25 years (maybe). A computer is not meant just to perform tasks. It's also a learning tool, something to expand your mind and talents with. How many people buy a computer on this premise, or for some of the students here, tell their parents they could learn so much. In reality though, what do we see? People wired out on social sites, game sites, video and music sites, and in truth, very little learning "overall" compared to those that actually do. Then they need bigger and better systems because they think that may help their lag or speed up their downloads.
Truly a waste in my opinion.But that's just my opinion
I read a lot about bug reporting, information being passed onto devs of other distros and such. While I was coming to DWW I noticed the Absolute Linux anouncement. What a great anouncement about Audacity. He actually looked into it so deeply, "just one package" (Audacity) of the many there is in the distro and let everyone know they're going to be working on it during the Google Summer of Code. That's the kind of developer Linux needs. Kudos.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
169 • Fedora 9 (by Nadim Farhat on 2008-05-21 09:29:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
i think there should be a fedora 9.1 soon, because i ve tried some betas of other fedora releases in the past and i ve found them less buggy .
My eyes are bleeding cause of this cutting edge :) but in the end
great job done by Fedora . no risk no gain
170 • @168 and Absolute Linux (by JustInterested at 2008-05-21 12:23:50 GMT from Australia)
That's very impressive indeed from the Absolute Linux dev!
I've actually run the previous release 12.0 in a VM and I was impressed! Very snappy indeed that distro and one you could install for your grandma to surf, email, do photos and mostly things. And based on Slackware 12.1 - very nice!
Kudos indeed.
Good pickup Landor!
171 • Ubuntu 8.04 and Fedora 9 show Linux Progress (by In Usability Features on 2008-05-21 14:16:25 GMT from Australia)
I have tested Fedora 9 Gnome as Live Cd a couple of times on an Acer 1644 wlmi notebook with LPL LGPhilipsLCD screen (which has been very troublesome with a number of other distros and Kde versions of Fedora 7, 8 and pre-release 9 for about the last 12 months) and it seems to work correctly. The last two Fedora Gnome editions also worked well but the progress/greeter screen was missing (which was not a big deal for me) and now seems to be fixed.
F9 seems to boot up and work without an xorg.conf file and "The Monitor Resolution Settings" applet reports correct 1280x800@60hz resolution. Dpi info obtained via "xdpy | grep resolution" and Display Size settings via "xdpy | grep dimensions" are also shown to be as required but the "Display Settings Applet" found in Gnome desktop shows wrong settings (and looks as if Ubuntu folks have removed it from their 8.04 edition due it being confusing and not able to be fixed in time) and creating and xorg.conf file does not help it show a resolution higher than 1024x768@60hz.
I have installed Ubuntu 8.04 on an old P4 1700 Evo W4000 test rig (alongside Debian Etch, Mepis 7.0 and OpenSuse 10.3) and find it quite pleasant to use and configure.
Pros: a). I like the easy repo setup, it really IS great progress! I was able to pick my isp (Internode) mirror (which is free downloads) and it was all done for me, unlike the manual and time consuming way I have to do with other distros.
b). Synaptic in Ubuntu is more usable than one in Debian Etch and Mepis 7.0, especially the (repo) origin option (I have been spoilt by the "Smart Package Manager" I have used in openSuse).
c). There has been great advancement in "Authorization" policy management and now it easy to control how internal drives are mounted, though I could not see options for individual partition mounting policy.
d). Being Debian based, it is quite fast to boot and shutdown.
Cons: a). No "root" login was annoying for me (easily fixed by typing "sudo passwd root" in console mode, providing the password and then editing the "Login Window Preferences" --->Security---> and ticking box "Allow local system administrator login").
b). Display was not configured correctly and I could not find an Xorg configuration tool/utility to allow for vesa driver selection (I found that the "nv" driver that was setup by default, and is the correct choice for the card, was making the display about 5-10 mm out of position to my XP display settings and that the vesa driver was in sync). Though Ubuntu was only one of several distros tested to pick the correct 1024x768@85hz of the Dell e770s Crt monitor, the dpi settings were 81x81 instead of 96x96 (Fixed by adding 'DispalySize 270 203' to the monitor section of xorg.conf.). Final display fix for adding vesa driver option was to copy the xorg.conf from Debian Etch install.
c). Ubuntu/Kubuntu live installer did/would not work (and has not for the last 4 editions) on this machine and I had to use the "Alternate" iso cd method, which takes much longer.
d). Ubuntu seems the only one install on this machine not to have formatted the partition to support files larger the 4gb (I use Acronis True Image 11 "partition properties" option to verify this [non] support).
NB: To obtain the correct screen dimensions for the "DisplaySize" option under monitor section of xorg.conf, type 'startx -- -dpi 96' from 'init 3' console mode and then run the 'xdpyinfo | grep resolution' command in a console to verify it and 'xdpyinfo | grep dimensions' to obtain your correct screen settings for the given resolution you have previously configured for your screen.
172 • Ref 171 Thanks (by Ubuntu User on 2008-05-21 15:27:46 GMT from United States)
Hey thanks for the tips. Finally after so much negative drivel someone has come along and give useful information! I'm going to go right now and try these tips.
This is the reason I put up with such nonsense, for the one or two insightful comments here at DWW
173 • re 172 (by non-Ubuntu User on 2008-05-21 15:50:51 GMT from Canada)
You don't even have to try those tips. Use a distro that just works.
174 • Hate Ubuntu?? (by Larry Dart on 2008-05-21 16:18:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
"The problem is that many of these folks are extremely vocal on the Internet to express their opinions."
Isn't that called freedom of speech?
"While no intelligent reader will ever take them seriously, they do give the Linux community a bad name and discourage potential Linux users from joining us."
So you're not intelligent if you "hate" Ubuntu?
Please provide the facts that support your statement that saying negative things about Ubuntu discourages Linux uptake
"Can anything be done about this? Not much, it seems."
What would you like to see done? Censorship? Only allow the embarrassing, fawning (sorry, positive-intelligent) comments we read about Ubuntu. There are certainly more of them than there are negative (sorry, unintelligent) ones.
"Until people start reading their own posts and realise that senseless negativity towards the most popular distribution is counter-productive"
In other words keep quiet unless you are going to say something positive=intelligent about Ubuntu.
"we will have to live with the unfortunate fact that the top dog will always be the most hated one too"
Damn right you will. It's called having to accept that people have a right to express their opinions.
"- at least in the more immature and destructive circles on the Internet."
I have to say that is the funniest thing I've read recently. Thanks for that.
It has nothing to do with Ubuntu's position on the Distrowatch chart. Like it or not there are a lot of Linux users who actually believe that Ubuntu has become a double edged sword. It has done a lot to increase the use of Linux. That has to applauded. But it is starting to get out of hand. Google anything to do with Linux and the results are full of Ubuntu this, Ubuntu that. There are many other distros out there, but they are getting sidelined as Ubuntu becomes dominant. Linux is about freedom not domination.
Domination is "negative", "unintelligent", "immature" and "destructive".
Hate Ubuntu? No I don't. I doubt anyone really does.
It's interesting that Ubuntu fan-boys always seem to resort to hyperbole when they feel someone is questioning their faith.
Now I will offer my sincere apologies for being so "unintelligent, immature and destructive" as to question what you said.
175 • To all the 'Buntu haters - (by davemc on 2008-05-21 17:23:02 GMT from United States)
Yea, you know who you are. I used to be one too not so long ago, so I know the smell. Wake up and wise up! Ubuntu = Linux. Exactly, and identically as Fedora, SUSE, Sidux, Debian, Gentoo, Sabayon, MEPIS, PCLos, etc. etc. etc.
You say no?..
Please then do explain how Ubuntu is NOT a Linux distro. This I really want to see! If you cant do that, then stop with the bashing, because all you do is bash Linux as a whole! If you cant understand that, then please explain HOW you are doing the Linux world a favor by bashing Linux. Call (insert whatever Linux distro here) it whatever you will, it is still Linux, and represents the very best, and very worst of the Linux world. New people will use and love or hate it, and move on, or stay on, hopefully, to another Linux distro and not go back to Windows or OSX.
*I use "Your" here as a plurality for ALL senseless bashing/bashers*
-Your bashing certainly does not do anything to help new people to stay with Linux.
-Your bashing does not do anything to help fix bugs.
-Your bashing will not dissuade people from trying/staying with XYZ distro. They will make that decision on their own, and based upon their own experiences, regardless of anything you say.
-Distro developers will not listen to anything you have to say, because they try to listen to the needs/wishes of their real user base (which is NOT you, because you don't contribute/help).
-Your bashing makes you appear to be an idiot. Do you really think that anyone takes anything you have to say seriously when it is just senseless whining about something not working for you, or that you dont agree with the way distro XYZ does things???.. Get real! Nobody cares about what you say when your tone is negative, and this is the real truth, say whatever you will.
176 • And another thing.. (by davemc on 2008-05-21 17:45:03 GMT from United States)
Sorry, forgot to finish my post #175.
Regardless your feelings for Ubuntu, or whatever distro, each one of them proudly sports Linux/FOSS technologies and projects which are each independant of the distro they are in. Projects like OpenOffice.org, Mozilla/Firefox, Thunderbird, Abiword, the GNOME suite, the KDE suite, the "boxes", Network managers/FOSS networking, LAMP, Compiz Fusion, the XFCE suite, Mplayer, VLC, GIMP, K3B, Brasero, and a hundred others. If that distro happens to be Ubuntu as the flagship sporting all those projects for new people, then so what? Why should it matter that Windows newby Frank's first Linux experience is with Ubuntu, or PClos, or MEPIS? The medium is the same. It is all Linux, Frank will decide if he likes it or not - and ONLY Frank will make that choice based upon his experiences! However, regardless of Franks choice to stay or leave behind Linux, he will have learned of all those other FOSS projects, many of which he may decide to take with him back to Windows and use those instead of the proprietary counterparts. Is not this scenario what we all want?
177 • re 176 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-21 18:01:11 GMT from Canada)
"Is not this scenario what we all want?"
We all want Ubuntu to contribute more to common projects such as Linux kernel.
178 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-21 18:29:48 GMT from Canada)
Everyone just stop the distro bashing, it isn't helping, at all. I would rather people post news the DistroWatch hasn't been able to acquire yet in the comments, rather than the same arguing over and over, week after week.
179 • re: 176 davemc (by lalala on 2008-05-21 18:34:26 GMT from United States)
Yet again, an ubuntu fanboy types before reading & understanding what is being said.
When we say "ubuntu doesn't equal Linux", we don't mean that ubuntu is not a Linux distro. We mean ubuntu is not the only distro out there.
There are two types of ubuntu people
ubuntu users--Those that acknowledge other distros and don't look down on people for using something else other than ubuntu.
ubuntu fanboys--Those that act like ubuntu is the only thing out there and act like everything done in ubuntu is new & exciting.
--You say our "bashing" doesn't help new people to stay with linux. That would only be true if all new Linux users used ubuntu and ubuntu was the only distro out there, which it is not.
--You say our "bashing" doesn't help to fix bugs. We never claimed it did. Don't try to put words in our mouths.
--You say our "bashing" won't stop people from trying or staying with a certain distro. We never said it would.
--You say distro devs won't listen to anything we say. We don't care because we are not talking to them.
--You say our "bashing" makes us look like idiots. How is that? Just because we don't like ubuntu fanboys. Because we have opinions? Because we have the right to speak our mind? Why does no one care when our tone is negative? Do you speak for everyone?
We are Linux users. We don't actually hate ubuntu the distro itself, or regular ubuntu users. We are tired of ubuntu fanboys for the following reasons:
--acting like ubuntu is the only distro choice out there.
--spamming sites like Digg with stories like "how to install flash in ubuntu"
--getting mean, hateful & defensive (like you have) when even the smallest negative comment is made about their distro.
--acting like they are better than everyone else just because they use ubuntu.
--acting like or claiming certain programs (ex: networkmanager) were created specifically for ubuntu.
These are only a few reasons, I could go on all day. I will continue to post any comment I want about ubuntu, because it is my right to do so.
It is the ubuntu fanboys that are doing all the harm to the Linux community, not us. If someone wants to use ubuntu, fine. If someone wants to use ubuntu and act all high & mighty, not fine.
180 • Ubuntu Bashing (by RC on 2008-05-21 20:43:12 GMT from United States)
I am against any form of distro bashing. Any version that can draw people into the Linux world is a plus. Each has its strenghts and weaknesses and those should be discussed in a manner that helps people choose the distro that fits their needs and helps developers improve their offereing.
There are many levels of Linux for different folks. Arch, Gentoo and LFS for the Uber Geeks and on down the line to newbie friendly versions for the newly converted such as PCLinuxOS, Mint and Mepis.
Ubuntu is contributing a great deal to the Linux world and should be applauded for that. My only problems with Ubuntu is that it is marketed to convert new folks to Linux and yet it is not as newbie friendly as the three I mentioned above. Besides the bugs that crop up in each release, my mother and the millions of users out there that don't understand the difference between ram and hard drive space simply cannot use the CLI to get things working and they are not going to spend hours searching the internet or forums trying to resolve issues. Ubuntu fails in this area. If it is going to aggressively market to new users, which is a good thing, then it needs to create the graphical and automated tools that eliminate this weakness and do a better job of quality control.
Until that happens I will continue to suggest the other three options to new users. Once they have a little experience under thier belt and are willing to do the work...then they can try Ubuntu....and I hope that it is a great fit for them.
181 • I agree with RC (by Jerry on 2008-05-21 21:23:15 GMT from United States)
Once a user moves away from Windows, no matter the distro, they are likely to notice places just like www.distrowatch.com, etc, and, viola: we have a new member of the Linux community.
Then they can start griping about the various bugs in whatever distros they are struggling with at the time. :O)
- J
182 • Better than Ubuntu (by plock on 2008-05-21 21:25:56 GMT from Sweden)
Mandriva 2008.1 is the best distro out now. It's both solid och well designed.
183 • re 181 (by satan666 on 2008-05-21 21:28:18 GMT from Canada)
I definitely agree with you. I just want to let all those new Linux users that choosing Suse they don't get far from Windows. They are still under Microsoft's Patents Protective Umbrella.
184 • I forgot "know" (by satan666 on 2008-05-21 21:29:42 GMT from Canada)
I definitely agree with you. I just want to let all those new Linux users know that choosing Suse they don't get far from Windows. They are still under Microsoft's Patents Protective Umbrella.
185 • @181 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-05-21 22:16:35 GMT from Canada)
What, you get a free viola for switching to Mandriva? Why wasn't I told?
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/viola
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/voila
(AdamW Enterprises, striking blows for pedantry online since 1991!)
186 • @185 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-05-21 22:17:01 GMT from Canada)
er, I meant Linux, not Mandriva. brain fart.
187 • The Ubuntu Borg ... (by Ubuntu User on 2008-05-21 23:14:13 GMT from United States)
Just for the fun of it I used an AWK word count program to see how many times the word ubuntu(kbuntu) came up. It was 211 times! By comparison slackware came up 12 times.
For those that, for whatever reason, have negative comments regarding ubuntu you might want to curtail your activity.
Physiologically someones subconscious brain doesn't distinguish between negative and positive statements. It just remembers the word -- UBUNTU. So what your doing , in fact, is promoting UBUNTU, whether you like it or not.
So if you want to steer someone away from something don't give their subconscious reason to hold onto the very thing your trying so hard prevent.
When someone thinks about installing a Linux distribution, what do you think comes to their mind ... UBUNTU, exactly.
It's like the old story I use to hear about a driving instructor when he spots a pot hole in the road. He just tells the driver stay on this side of the road. If he would say, "Watch out for that pot hole, don't run over it, stay clear of the pot hole". Guess where the driver is headed -- Straight for the pot hole. Why do you think drivers keep running into individuals on the side of the highway. There mind tells them "Watch out for the driver...".
So in affect your helping to spread the word about UBUNTU . You think your steering them away, but in effect your steering them towards UBUNTU.
So like the Borg in Star Trek, fighting UBUNTU is futile...
188 • Slice of Life (by John Grub on 2008-05-21 23:42:06 GMT from United States)
Logic prevails in this weeks DistroWatch Weekly. Thank you Ladislav! I also think intelligent thinking wins out over negative thinking. What I find here is the negative comments are laced with a lot of hate. Hate is a strong word, but it's the one that's used. Way too much emotion about something that's a choice. There's so many other things in life to get upset about than a Linux distro.
But even so, what someone brings to this comments section is really a slice of their life anyway. If their unhappy in life, nothing in the Linux world will change that.
Besides don't these comments get wiped out each and every week? It's like a chalkboard, we start fresh each week.
Keep up the unbiased journalism. I think all Linux is good. If someone tries ubuntu for a while, he may stay or install another distro. I think I've read that you Ladislav, use Fedora.
People have to start somewhere. Where they end up is another story.
189 • RedHat and Novell (by satan666 on 2008-05-21 23:52:21 GMT from Canada)
RedHat released 5.2.
Novell released SP2.
Notice the difference?
I told you before. The next version of Suse is gonna be "Windows 7"
190 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-21 23:52:56 GMT from United States)
Now for something different. I see there is a new Absolute Linux. This is the kind of thing that makes me like Linux so much. A lightweight Slackware that is still 100% Slackware: it's completely compatible with all Slackware packages, and has all of the same configuration files, yet is customized with icewm and some tools to make Slackware easier.
It'll never have a million users, but it does have a place. Paul will never get rich from Absolute, but he provides a good service to a lot of users.
I will try out this version sometime. I've used it in the past and would like to say thanks to him for doing this good work.
191 • Ubuntu (by Sieb on 2008-05-22 00:31:04 GMT from Netherlands)
Looks more like hardline propaganda to me. Not Distrowatch worthy.
Ubuntu is not a rocksolid supersecure out-of-the-box easy all-you-want experience for newbies and pro's. More experienced linux users just fine tune there own favorite old distro. I just don't understand what is so great about Ubuntu. Please note that I don't hate Ubuntu at all! Looks like it is pushed, not earned, more like.... u know ;-)
192 • @ 146 (by M on 2008-05-22 01:13:21 GMT from Australia)
I agree corneliu
I use Ubuntu on my kids' computers.
They are very comfortable with it and know how to work Synaptic.
I use Arch and Openbox on my computers.
The computer is virtually useless to anyone who doesn't know my shortcut keys but near perfect to me.
193 • RE: 168 (by sbcc on 2008-05-22 01:36:44 GMT from United States)
Landor wrote: "People wired out on social sites, game sites, video and music sites, and in truth, very little learning "overall" compared to those that actually do. Then they need bigger and better systems because they think that may help their lag or speed up their downloads.
Truly a waste in my opinion.But that's just my opinion"
Not just your opinion. I just spent a couple of hours installing Puppy 4.0 on a Dell Inspiron 3000 laptop, 200 mhz Pentium, 128 mb RAM. I learned some new things in the process and I'm posting here on it now.
Keep the ice in your drink... :)
194 • re 173----> "Distro that just works" (by Only in your dreams! on 2008-05-22 02:39:50 GMT from Australia)
173 • re 172 (by non-Ubuntu User on 2008-05-21 15:50:51 GMT from Canada)
You don't even have to try those tips. Use a distro that just works.
Which distro might that be? That simple crt Dell E770s monitor has been configured wrong by all the other distros I tried (they pick 1280x1024@60hz) and Ubuntu at least picked the correct resolution and refresh rate. How smart is Xorg to pick 60hz refresh rate for a crt monitor by choosing the highest resolution?
On my Acer 1644 wlmi notebook/laptop, of the post June 2007 era distro editions, only OpenSuse 10.3 and Fedora 8 and 9 (Gnome) can set correct display without mods to xorg.conf. Ubuntu/Kubuntu has failed for two releases in a row, as has Mandriva and Fedora Kde, and I will not consider trying any of them again on this machine unless I can find a valid reason for it.
Cheers
195 • No subject (by re #179 by lalala on 2008-05-22 04:01:59 GMT from United States)
"179 • re: 176 davemc (by lalala on 2008-05-21 18:34:26 GMT from United States)
Yet again, an ubuntu fanboy types before reading & understanding what is being said."
I read all 174 posts preceeding mine. You did NOT read my two posts which is obvious. You did however, prove my point quite well. I am NO Ubuntu fanboi. I am a big time Linux fanboi however, in whatever form it takes - Ubuntu, Gentoo, PClos, Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE, Arch, Sidux (great distro btw), Pardus, Puppylinux (another FANTASTIC distro), DSL, Sabayon (The KING of the bleeding edge KDE distros), etc. I love elements of them all. I hate elements of them all.
I said that bashers make themselves appear to be idiots. That is absolutely true, as you just proved with your post. I was not referring to you, yet you chimed in on a rant of my posts (without reading or understanding them). Why ever would you do that, unless you felt that my post was referring to you. Get over yourself - you never even entered my thoughts as I typed them. Rather, I was referring to someone that thoughtlessly rants on a distro (insert ANY distro) for selfish reasons. If you fall into that category, then yes, my post was, and still is, aimed squarely at you. K?
196 • DPI Problem Solving (by Good tips on 2008-05-22 05:58:49 GMT from Australia)
Mozilla DPI-related Font Size Issues on Unix
http://www.mozilla.org/unix/dpi.html
DPI Problem Solving
Both points and DPI either too small or too big are typically caused by a mismatch between your real display size and the display size your X server thinks you have. So, if you don't like Mozilla's UI font sizes, start to correct your problem by reconciling the two sizes. Measure your display, and change whatever settings are required to cause the X server to report and use the actual display size.
GTK1 Mozilla does not respond to DPI adjustments with corresponding changes in UI fonts. Adjustments to GTK1 UI fonts must be made via gnomecc or via userChrome.css.
To find out what your X server thinks your DPI settings are, run the program xdpyinfo:
$ xdpyinfo | grep dimensions
$ xdpyinfo | grep resolution
[....]
197 • @122, visibility = community benefit (by AliasMarlowe on 2008-05-22 06:32:18 GMT from United States)
"(Texstar) We don't have their money, that's for sure. We're a genuine community distro. We're not about fighting other distros. They all have their place. Ubuntu has done great things getting the word out there is an alternative OS available and you dont have to be tied down to one operating system dictating how you can use your computer. This means there are more computer users trying Linux and overall this means more users will be testing the waters trying various Linux versions to find the one that works best with their hardware and meets their needs. This benefits all distributions."
I think Texstar summed up the major benefit of Ubuntu's active promotion and consequent popularity.
All of our PCs at home run Ubuntu, and my experience has been positive. I first installed a beta of 5.10 Breezy on a Sony Vaio laptop (almost everything worked: 1920x1200 display, WLAN, USB, Firewire, etc. but the special Sony buttons were not supported until 7.10 Gutsy), and upgraded the other PCs over the next year or so. Not all Ubuntu users are "noobs" either; I have unix experience since the 80's, and Linux since the late 90's (and IBM and DEC mainframes in the 70's, FWIW).
Is Ubuntu a good distro for many people? Obviously yes, or it would not be so popular. Is it the only good distro? Not at all, but one's choice of OS is a matter of personal needs and preferences rather than one-is-best-for-all. We have installed Suse, Fedora, and Mandriva at least once each for testing, but they did not last very long for one or other reason (typically something small but very annoying). Quite a few other distros' live CDs have been booted for a quick look. One of our PCs had PCLinuxOS for several months, and it was a close call on whether it would replace Ubuntu. In the end, our kids decided that Gnome was preferable to KDE. However, PCLinuxOS will certainly be tried again.
198 • Harty Hodrod WoW! (by Verndog on 2008-05-22 06:41:04 GMT from United States)
This Ultimate Edition 1.8 ,Harty Hodrod looks and sound impressive.
This one is built by hand ---Aren't all Hot Rods built that way :)
By the way, he calls it Harty Hodrod, should that be Hotrod, or is this some play on words, I wonder.
Has anyone used his previous edition built by the reconstructor?
This is the first time I've seen this distro. The screenshots look impressive.
199 • Re: 167 - Ubuntu (by Anon. on 2008-05-22 07:08:10 GMT from Norway)
Anonymous wrote: "Trouble is that in the practical experience of somebody who has installed Ubuntu at least on 5 computers (somebody with years of Linux experience and countless installs of hundreds of distros, that is me) is that Ubuntu never works out of the box. On the contrary, the bugs can be so annoying that it is not worth bothering. Slackware is a walk in the park by comparison (because one thing is having to configure your OS, another is having to deal with bugs if you are not a dev)
If you wanted that kind of OS, Xandros and pre-Ubuntu Linspire were *a lot* better. Pity that they are almost dead."
Well, I keep reading about people having trouble with *buntu, so perhaps I am among the lucky few who have never seen them? Admittedly, I have only tried *buntu on three different machines. However, the great thing about the Ubuntu family is their undeniable success in achieving a massive *installed base* in a short time. The number of active users, roughly 'installed base', is what is essential if Linux shall have a chance v.a.v. MSC and others. It is in this endeavour Canonical/Ubuntu has been, and is, such a great phenomenon to the benefit of all Linuxers and Linux distros.
Personally, and at this time, I am using mainly Archlinux, but also have Bluewhite64, Kubuntu and PCLinuxOS installed. This may change, but if Archlinux keeps it present quality, a change of main OS is probably a long way off.
There is room for improvement in many areas in the Linux universe. IMO, the most important is to make the various distro as user friendly as at all possible. The geeks, myself included, can take care of themselves, but new, less informed users, should have Linux presented to them on highly polished silver platters! :)
200 • Ubuntu Hate (by Jack Straw on 2008-05-22 08:24:15 GMT from Italy)
to #94
>>Even the best distros still have a very hard time with relatively easy tasks in the Mac or Windows world, such as wireless networking.
The only distro that failed with my Vaio wireless was called... wait a moment... oh yes "Windows Vista Ultimate Edition"...80 Mb of network and graphic drivers later (pulled off Vaio website using mandriva 2008.0 livecd which does actually work the wireless) I'm still using wired network with Vista....
I'd say Windows should improve a bit if it wants to become a usable operating system.
My 2 cents
Jack
201 • Qu 199 Is installed base an indicator of INDENIABLE success? (by dbrion on 2008-05-22 09:25:17 GMT from France)
"However, the great thing about the Ubuntu family is their undeniable success in achieving a massive *installed base* in a short time"
And how many UBU linuxen are cleaned off ... on a longer time scale?
And how many people think they have been swindled, and equate linux with crookery ... in a short (~3 months : that makes 2 weeks tests leading to interesting conclusions) time scale.?
What is the proportion of people asking, say, Dell , to sell them W$ to replace UBU linux (and preinstalled linuxen are easier ... for the end user and for the distributor... I really do not know if they are easier for the equipment manufacturer.).?
Are these questions ideological (that is very nasty, of course) or just factual?
202 • Ubuntu hate (by Duhnonymous on 2008-05-22 11:32:12 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu hate mostly comes from developers who resent the position of trust and respect that it has earned from the community. It shows a lack of maturity and ignorance that a lot of developers have.
Mark Shuttleworth is right about the need for synchronization, and the fact that he is willing to delay Ubuntu to do it just shows you how generous and adaptable he is. I don't really get why people hate him, but I don't think I really want to know. Surely, such hatred is indicative of a personal character flaw.
203 • "Viola" vs "Voila" :O) (by Jerry on 2008-05-22 11:34:15 GMT from United States)
Well, my brain doesn't "fart," however my keyboard does from time to time.
(always blame the equipment!) LOL.. .. er,
204 • Ubuntu hatred once again (sorry) (by herman on 2008-05-22 12:21:12 GMT from Netherlands)
Hatred of Ubuntu is obvious.
People that feel good about being special using Linux, feel kinda funny that even granny and uncle John can now use Linux (i.e., Ubuntu, cause that's what their nephew installed for them) without having to resort to King Geek daily.
It does take some of the Xclusivité out of the deal.
First Linux's goal was world domination, then it seems to kind of happen on some scale and then its suddenly scary.
I think we should try to find a way to criticise certain projects and distros in a fair way without ending up in the trenches. That might be more difficult than asking from a newb to recompile his kernel, fix Grub and kill X to load his new xorg.conf.
Let's face it people, Ubuntu's doing something right. So do so many other projects.
I still recommend CentOS for the stable and Fedora for the funkiness, but it's getting hard with this Buntu release being LTS.
Ubuntu's doing someting right, just find out what, copy that, improve on that. It's legal, it's encouraged, it's being done. What's good for the distro king, is good for the distro joker.
205 • Amen! Re: #204 (by davemc on 2008-05-22 13:37:40 GMT from United States)
"Ubuntu's doing someting right, just find out what, copy that, improve on that. It's legal, it's encouraged, it's being done. What's good for the distro king, is good for the distro joker."
This is exactly WHY Open Source thrives, and proprietary models stagnate. This is why I don't favor one distro over another - because what is one distro's innovation one day, becomes standard on all distro's later, who then improve and expand upon that idea, and make it even BETTER!
206 • RE 202 UBU linux temporay users feature.... (by dbrion on 2008-05-22 15:06:27 GMT from France)
"It shows a lack of maturity and ignorance that a lot of developers have"
This post fully shows the maturity and knowlege UBUlinux temporary (at least I hope) can show....
207 • Yes, yes! No ideology! (by Markus on 2008-05-22 15:16:02 GMT from Germany)
> we have always preferred to focus more on technology and less on ideology.
And what about Your opinion regarding to ,,Linux Today'', eh? What You have
said about them? Did You forget that?
208 • REF#196 • DPI Problem Solving by Good tips (by JLO on 2008-05-22 15:19:02 GMT from United States)
Well UBUNTU did it right after all ! Thanks for the tip. Far and few between. Contrary to previous posters comments about getting a distro that works, UBUNTU does work. Here's my out from your good tip:
jlo@jlo-desktop:~$ xdpyinfo | grep resolution
resolution: 96x96 dots per inch
jlo@jlo-desktop:~$ xdpyinfo | grep dimensions
dimensions: 1024x768 pixels (270x203 millimeters)
It was this way from the get-go. Now you know.
Regarding the comment about using UBUNTU's success story and copy theri methods. Another great idea. Don't fight 'em , join 'em.
209 • Cor 206 s/UBUNTU/Microsoft XP/ # sorry for the absence of case (by dbrion on 2008-05-22 15:34:42 GMT from France)
Don't fight 'em , join 'em."
What about M$?
210 • Re: 201 - Ubuntu imponderables... (by Anon. on 2008-05-22 15:49:58 GMT from Norway)
dbrion wrote: "Are these questions ideological (that is very nasty, of course) or just factual?"
Oh, I guess they're "factual" enough, but so what? However, they insinuate that Ubuntu may be a bigger turn-off than other distros. If that is not the motivation of the questioner, what is it?
BTW, I note that Shuttleworth is calling for some cooperation between distros. Good to see my idea from a few weeks back is being picked up... :)
211 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 15:50:25 GMT from United States)
@lalala use of 'fanboy' is derogatory and inflammatory, may be considered 'hate speech' and is inappropriate in this forum.
212 • Microsoft and money (by Joey on 2008-05-22 16:07:11 GMT from United States)
Why do you people us a "$" for the "s" in Microsoft? I'm a Linux user, too, but if you're going to use money and/or the persuit thereof as the problem with that company then find some disparaging way to type Ubuntu (maybe the Euro sign?) and all the others who actually sell CDs of Linux distros.
Linux users seem immature doing that.
213 • @ 212 (by satan666 on 2008-05-22 16:35:43 GMT from Canada)
Companies and organizations can make money in a variety of ways.
The $ sign is for Microsoft's greedy ways of making money.
$use deserves this sign as well.
214 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 17:24:25 GMT from United States)
Its kinda sad how people's lives are so deprived the only thing you have to do is sit around and bad mouth a linux distro. Please people go outside and enjoy the day, get some fresh air and sun. Take your pet for a walk or go for a walk yourself, give a little meaning to your life.
215 • posting # 213 (by Joey on 2008-05-22 18:11:00 GMT from United States)
Thank you, $atan666.
I'm sure that with a nickname such as yours that you are FAR more honorable than the likes of Bill Gates. 'Scuze me, Gate$.
216 • re 215 (by satan666 on 2008-05-22 18:21:34 GMT from Canada)
I really don't want to be honorable the way Bill Gates is. I would like to have Bill's money. I would use his money to destroy Windows. That would be neat.
My nickname is about hatred.
I hate Microsoft. And I hate all distros that have a patents deal with Microsoft ($use most of all).
I can't help it.
Do you think that a nickname like Wuck_Findows would suit me better?
217 • 215 (by Anon on 2008-05-22 18:48:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm sure that with a nickname such as yours that you are FAR more honorable than the likes of Bill Gates. 'Scuze me, Gate$
What the criminal and unethical businessman that tries to hide by making out that he's some great philanthropist.
All together now:
"Now isn't he such a nice man, a very very generous and kind man"
218 • re 217 (by Anon on 2008-05-22 18:50:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
ooops, finger slipped a few times, should say:
What the criminal and unethical businessman that tries to hide this by making out that he's some great philanthropist
219 • RE: # 204 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 19:30:41 GMT from Italy)
"People that feel good about being special using Linux, feel kinda funny that even granny and uncle John can now use Linux (i.e., Ubuntu, cause that's what their nephew installed for them) without having to resort to King Geek daily."
If a geeky nephew installs Linux for her, granny can even use Gentoo, no problem. But I'd like to see my aunt installing and configuring Ubuntu after dealing with all sort of things which don't work...
220 • @ 219 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 19:59:23 GMT from Canada)
Your aunt woudn't be able to install and configure Windows either, so your argument is absolutely not relevant. Your aunt buys the computer with Windows pre-installed.
221 • @220 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 20:17:16 GMT from Italy)
It is relevant, because herman from the Netherlands was suggesting in his post that Ubuntu is "Linux for the masses".
I am all in favour of Linux for the masses, but Ubuntu doesn't fulfill that role.
222 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 20:31:44 GMT from Canada)
It is not relevant.
If Windows can be an OS for masses (being pre-installed on the machine) then Ubuntu can be the same (being pre-installed on the machine). The real argument is that there are many other OSes that can be popular if they came pre-installed.
223 • re:221 ubuntu, the linux for the mass (by Dopher on 2008-05-22 21:34:37 GMT from Belgium)
"quote 221 • @220 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 20:17:16 GMT from Italy): It is relevant, because herman from the Netherlands was suggesting in his post that Ubuntu is "Linux for the masses".
I am all in favour of Linux for the masses, but Ubuntu doesn't fulfill that role."
And Linux From Scratch does?? Listen, i'm not an ubuntu fan. But that's just because i'm a minimalist. i.o. its' just not my taste.
But i think if there is one linux distro ready for the mass, then it's ubuntu linux. Easy installation, well supported and easy to maintain. AND, A LONG TERM SUPPORT RELEASE!!!!. no end end-user wants to upgrade every half year to yet another release.
So, although i'm a slacker, i think that ubuntu is the candidate as ubuntu for the mass
224 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 21:39:54 GMT from Canada)
Here are my top three distros (as far as user friendliness is concerned)
1. Mandriva
2. Ubuntu
3. PCLinuxOS
225 • RE: # (by Anonymous on 2008-05-22 21:55:09 GMT from Italy)
"So, although i'm a slacker, i think that ubuntu is the candidate as ubuntu for the mass"
I disagree.
Here are my candidates, in no particular order:
1)Xandros, if they come back from the dead
2)PCLinuxOS
3)OpenSUSE
4)Possibly Mandriva, but personally I have some problems with it which I don't have with its close relative, PCLinuxOS.
I'll never stop saying it: a "Linux for the masses" must offer the user an experience as smooth and as bugfree as possible.
226 • Gameboys and Xboxes are for the masses (by KimTjik on 2008-05-22 22:20:20 GMT from Sweden)
There's in my view a huge difference in what Anon in post # 199 referred to as a "massive *installed base*", and what someone from Italy in post #221 label "Linux for the masses" (I can't see Herman using that phrase in his post). A powerful operating system can never become a Gameboy or Xbox, and hence there's a natural leap between the two also in regard to user skills (I'm not talking about gaming skills of course!).
Asus Eee with it's by choice limited Linux operating system could be the compromise, filling a need for mobility and accessibility with something of more useful than a cellphone. Most people will be able to make the "right" clicks in such an environment without good insight in how it all works. They will however encounter some foreign technical terms though depending on type of Internet connection and so on. Literally speaking: Linux for the masses won't come much further than this, because even though Linux has more potential all millions of mismanaged Windows installations prove how futile it is to expect that everyone by just learning to do mouse-clicks automatically and successfully can operate more complex systems.
The idea of Anon about a "massive *install base*" isn't a bad one. Some will of course not be happy about everything - maybe like dbrion described it - but a massive base of collected hardware information, even if just a fragment comes through, will without doubt help developers of all distributions to hammer out incompatibility issues (depending on how well the infrastructure within a distribution transfer needed information). I'm sure Ubuntu can improve and give back more to the whole community, but its user base can well be big enough to send a strong message to hardware developers and companies providing different kinds of IT-services to take Linux seriously. Pre-installed or not, the user becomes the ultimate limit.
I'm no supporter of Ubuntu, but I see how some folks have learned to accept and even switch to Linux by the populistic image Ubuntu has. Some started to fool around with a desktop system, to soon realize how easy they could set up different server environments. Some are happy to stay 100 % Ubuntu, but many have eventually looked for other distributions. Of course it would be fantastic... or fantastically boring if everything, from choice to usage were perfect, but the current scenario is still pretty good.
Just like Anon I don't see today any reason for me to abandon Arch as my preferred distribution, and honestly I've had little luck in getting Ubuntu systems work the way I want. So what, that's just me? While not bashing, I on the other side don't see it as positive if we just become smooth talkers. As long as it's constructive it isn't a bad thing that the organisations behind distributions feel a bit uncomfortable... "shaken not stirred" is probably a good motto.
227 • ref 226 ... (by Verndog on 2008-05-23 00:22:23 GMT from United States)
A lot of thoughtful comments there. Some good ideas. Some I've abide by.
I'm using Ubuntu right now but may not in the future. Also with Ubuntu's massive size, hardware manufacturers may now take notice.
Right now I'm reorienting myself back to the Linux world. I started out using Slackware in the 80's. Stopped because of job requirements. In fact, back then I think there was only Slackware. I still have their 5-cd disk set. I was spending too much time with my job and not enough time with my hobbies.
228 • Ubuntu is supposed to be "user friendly" (by Could have fooled me! on 2008-05-23 01:28:58 GMT from Australia)
Maybe for people who don't know any better and are total ignoramuses about PCs and OSes.
Fedora does not have as many specialized configuration tools as OpenSuse or Mandriva but it still outshines Ubuntu by a mile, IMHO!
In terms of ease of use, Fedora's (9) gui firewall setup is a million miles ahead of Ubuntu's (8.04) NEW "UFW" ("uncomplicated" firewall) cli setup and the services manager applet in Fedora is excellent and allows one to easily enable and disable OS services (with good information about what they are used for) in comparison to Ubuntu's limited version (I think its the standard Gnome variety).
If Fedoa were to offer 2 yr (like openSuse does) support instead of 13 mths to their releases, IMO, they would be the VERY POPULAR.
One thing to note with the current stable of "Live CD" releases from the "majors", they are virtualy useless to try on a P4 1700Mhz with 512MB RAM, and that is a real shame. Considering that Microsoft will offer security updates to XP up to 14 April 2014 (but no new upgrades, eg IE or WMP, from 14 April 2009), Linux will miss the opportunity to support these old PCs with an updated modern OS. But here is any opportunity for others to take the slack up (Mepis 7 was a breeze to install on same machine).
FYI: Windows Operating....Lifecycle FAQ
http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifeselect
Microsoft Support Lifecycle - XP Pro
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3223
229 • re 204---> recommend CentOS (by I wil try it! on 2008-05-23 01:44:01 GMT from Australia)
I still recommend CentOS
I have the live cd burnt and will take it for a spin in the next few days, thanks for the tip.
230 • ref 228 (by Ubuntu User on 2008-05-23 01:55:21 GMT from United States)
"Maybe for people who don't know any better and are total ignoramuses about PCs and OSes."
And that statement is suppose to get people to go out and try Fedora. Shame on you for such demeaning tactics!
Fedora should have a better spokesman. One that uses more intelligence.
231 • Open Graphics Project (by upNorth on 2008-05-23 04:50:44 GMT from Canada)
Hi there ;)
I do acknowledge that the link i'm posting on here isn't related to Linux per se. However i hope you will excuse and allow it to stand on the forum, as it's related to an Open Source Graphic (GPU) Hardware project, which i believe most Distrowatch followers would be interested to know about it. Anyway, here's the link
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/05/22/graphics-card-launched-fpga
232 • ref 231 - What the F? (by downSouth on 2008-05-23 05:34:41 GMT from United States)
Hey upNorth,
Did you bouther to read the comments on the link. Pay $1500 for a graphics board that YOU have to program?!
Is this some kind of joke? Seriously, what's this all about. Sounds like something Vista users would be interested in. HAHA
233 • Debian and Slackware on the brain (by Roachboy Lives! on 2008-05-23 07:45:15 GMT from Kenya)
I finally tried the SUSE 10.3 single-CD install. I was very impressed by the speed, given my earlier experience with SUSE, and the menu system is a work of art (I guess it dates back to 10.2). Novell/SUSE’s HCI labs are certainly doing good work. But I couldn’t get the sound working and OpenOffice.org had an annoying habit of crashing. So that means I'm sticking with my old favourites: Debian and Slackware. They just work - and they’re less demanding on system resources too. Furthermore, I think Volkerding has outdone himself with 12.1! And no, I'm not an Ubuntu fan. Too slow! Feels like I'm driving a bus! And I don’t care what anybody says, GNOME is crap! For one, it’s unstable, and for another, when was the last time you were able to surf the Web, view a pdf, and look at your folders, all at the same time, like you can in Konqueror? (Making Dolphin the default file manager in KDE 4 seems retrogressive to me – even though KDE 4 is noticeably faster than KDE 3).
Anyway, I recently came across an old (1994) interview where Pat Volkerding said the following: “Ian Murdock (of the Debian distribution) and I have tossed around the idea of a merger since last fall. It's possible that this could eventually happen.” (http://linuxjournal.com/article/2750). I think it’s a good thing that merger never happened!
P.S. I said that GNOME was crap and suddenly my mouse cursor went haywire as if to prove to me that KDE is crap too! I finally had to do a hard reboot. Yet, I STILL LOVE LINUX!
234 • RE 232 The price of free development on prototypes is not a joke.. (by dbrion on 2008-05-23 09:13:13 GMT from France)
"Pay $1500 for a graphics board that YOU have to program?!"
It is not a joke, likely : one has to pay much more for prototypes void of any software (for mobile phones, it is a 1:20 ratio, too) than for mass-producted hardware.
That makes the difference between beggar-oriented (a la Sheep-Eat), demagogic stuffs and
work...coming from ugly, ideological developpers (cf @202) who sometimes are generous enough .. to loose some money (as it looses value, what's the hell). Will they remain generous enough to tolerate being laughed at as geeks? By unskilled parasits?
BTW Is there *any* line of creative code coming from UBUlinux?
Where?
235 • 'Love' and 'Hate' (by DeniZen at 2008-05-23 09:36:49 GMT from United Kingdom)
We live in a world where the word 'hate' has become used far too often. I dont mean that in a 'hippy' sense - just that its used to liberally.
And that increasingly, it seems that people cannot govern their own preferences without stooping to using the word.
I have years of Sysadmin experince. I really like Ubuntu - I dont mind if it seen as a 'noob' Distro - its simply very very good.
I happen to choose Debian for personal use. I dont mind, nor care if Ubuntu has forked the Debian linage.
There are a number of other Disto's that Ive tried that I think are great. I simply choose the one that fits for me, and enjoy hearing that others enjoy using the 'flavour' that suits them (or their hardware)
Why on earth should 'hate' come into anything?
I assume the use of the word probably diminishes the more years pass from adolescence ..;)
236 • regarding post number 216 by "satan666" (by Joey on 2008-05-23 11:16:04 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
237 • re: 158 eAROS (by Anonymous on 2008-05-23 11:57:06 GMT from United States)
eARos didn't bypass the waiting list because they're a Ubuntu variant, they bought banner ads, which is how this site makes its money. Ladislav is very up front about that. The same thing happened with Ubuntu CE.
238 • 233 Why a desktop war? (there are about 10 DE, and > 500 distros) (by dbrion on 2008-05-23 13:58:59 GMT from France)
"And I don’t care what anybody says, GNOME is crap! For one, it’s unstable, and for another, when was the last time you were able to surf the Web, view a pdf, and look at your folders, all at the same time, like you can in Konqueror"
There are much less desktops than distros, and a desktop war would be useless:
I saw gnome working for almost 3 years flawlessly on my colleagues'desktops (they currently surf the web, view a pdf and edit a text, plus answer mails.... it never crashes nor gets slow, it is just a matter of RAM...) The only flaw I noticed (a proprietary soft crashing the desktop) could be reproduced on my favorite desktop, KDE, and IceWM (likely to be linked with X....) => the bugs of a desktop should be carefully described, and not in such a general way.
BTW : I choose KDE because , at the time I choos, it was less buggy than Gnome (but things may evolve). What will happen if dektops release are synchronized? (sorry for my ideological, of couse, question)
Bugs are likely to be
technically
synchronized, too => no desktop would be usable.... but there would be great technical collaboration ; things could be even funnier if the coordonator has well recognised technical skills...
239 • Suse SP2 (by RC on 2008-05-23 14:23:13 GMT from United States)
I am not that familiar with this. Is this the first time that Suse has referred to an update to its distro as a "Service Pack"? If so, that is very scary sounding. Definitely sounds like they are emulating Windows with that terminology.
240 • REF# 234The price of eggs in China & prototypes.. (by Confused Consumer on 2008-05-23 14:48:19 GMT from United States)
What does your statement about a $1500 graphics board and UBUlinux have in common???
Confusing post. Just don't understand. One is expensive hardware that you have to program yourself, the other is a successful Linux distribution, if your even referring to Ubuntu. Don't know what UBUlinux is. Maybe you mean something else. For sure its harware on one end and software on the other.
Did you bother to visit the $1500 graphics board site, and read the promo and the comments afterwards?
241 • REF# 237 & 158 eAROS (by John Grub on 2008-05-23 15:00:07 GMT from United States)
I'm confused what you mean by jumping waiting list???
eAROS is not on the 100 list. There is just a distribution information that was posted, which he does all the time.
It has nothing to do with jumping the waiting list.
Also Ref#158, what do you mean by editing the comments. I have seen Ladislav delete comments and it's usually posted as deleted. I wasn't aware of him editing comments.
242 • congratulations (by Joao Rainha on 2008-05-23 17:58:19 GMT from Portugal)
I'am glad to see that you have good sense, I do think also, that we have to be as open like you've sayed. The only thing that matters is the use of opensource, linux, and so on. We can't be blind and only see just one thing, it's the globalization, we are all in the same lovely planet upon the stars. This is the real freedom, to respect and demand respect.
Bye and keep up the good work
(sorry my english, I' portuguese)
243 • re:241 eAR OS (by Anonymous on 2008-05-23 17:59:23 GMT from United States)
New distros usually sit in the waiting list for some time, so it did "jump" the waiting list, or at the very least it passed a few others. As far as the editing of comments, I have not seen any evidence of that either.
244 • @227 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-23 19:46:52 GMT from United States)
@227
"Right now I'm reorienting myself back to the Linux world. I started out using Slackware in the 80's."
That must have been quiet the trick since the Linux Kernel didn't exist until 1991 :)
245 • Hate Ubuntu , It's normal (by Numer0bis at 2008-05-23 23:30:32 GMT from Switzerland)
Well as Gary Winston said in conspiracy.com. If you are on the top, people start to question the quality of your product and it's true for ubuntu and it's true for windows.
But personally I love ubuntu, yes it has some problems, not everything works out of the box etc and sometimes really needs tweaking but the great support through the forums really helps. So even if a lot of people dislike ubuntu, it was of ubuntu that I finally switched from windows to linux.
246 • Ref#245 (by Verndog on 2008-05-24 00:37:12 GMT from United States)
"...but the great support through the forums really helps..."
This amazed me. There is a ton of repeated questions and yet they all get answered if you are patient. 99.99% of the questions come from ex or soon to be ex Windows users. Most don't have a clue what to do. I rarely see any spamming. Most posters are just their to help. It truly is a great forum.
I have learned more from just trying to answer some of their questions than anything I have ever done. I lot of would-be Linux users get themselves into a pickle by doing some rather dumb things(innocently, I might add), and then try to fix it themselves and then get things all tangled up. Their are some rather bazaar situations that come up. It's gratifying to lend a hand.
Thanks for bring this up.
247 • Hate Ubuntu? (by Jeckyll on 2008-05-24 04:21:25 GMT from United States)
Hate Ubuntu? What, are they Windows now? Come to think about it, how do we feel about Suse? You know, that Linux distro that made a deal with the Devil!
Naw, I don't hate Ubuntu. I installed it, found I couldn't become root, then promptly (after trying to install quite a bit of software as a user!) re-installed my Mepis distro. But I can see why others do like it. Were I not the only one using the computer, I problably would like Ubuntu more.
But let's face it, some people like milk, some have to have chocolate milk, and some are lactose intolerant. As for me, I just want to be in control of my computer at an admin level at all times. I guess that means I like chocolate milk. mmm. mmm. good.
So how about it Ubuntu. You have your Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Ubuntu Studio... how about having a Root-buntu?
248 • ref # 247 (by OC Smith on 2008-05-24 05:10:11 GMT from United States)
sudo su -
plus your password lets you become root.
And besides staying in root for longer duration is suicide.
Also, and I'm not going to post it here, you can create a root password so effectively you can use root.
For normal usage why be root? Not needed and dangerous. That's what gets Windows user into a lot of trouble. The sad thing is they don't even know it!
249 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-24 05:10:12 GMT from Canada)
"Naw, I don't hate Ubuntu. I installed it, found I couldn't become root, then promptly (after trying to install quite a bit of software as a user!) re-installed my Mepis distro."
Same thing here! Only I went back to Mandriva.
250 • On using ROOT vs SUDO (by John Grub on 2008-05-24 05:16:33 GMT from United States)
Regarding Ubuntu and root. Have you read this:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo
It explains why its a bad idea to stay in root.
Maybe though, if your trying to find an excuse, that's as good as any to leave the distro.
251 • EASY TO BECOME ROOT IN UBUNTU (by SIMPLE Steps to follow on 2008-05-24 06:08:31 GMT from Australia)
Do Following:
Step 1.
:~$ sudo passwd root
[sudo] password for[user]:
Enter new UNIX password: xxxx
Retype new UNIX password: xxxx
passwd: password updated successfully
userr@ubuntu:~$
Step 2.
System--->Administration---->Login Window
You will be asked for your password, give it and follow to
--->Login Window Preferences ---> Security
--->TICK the box for: " Allow local system administrator login"
Step 3.
Logout, type "root" at the login window, give the new root password and "Bob is your Uncle"! :-)
Cheers
252 • Some consideration to power consumption of PCs & state of Planet Earth (by Food for thought on 2008-05-24 06:38:33 GMT from Australia)
A laptop/notebook PC consumes, at minimum, 5 times less power than a lowly P4 1700 + Monitor in my recent investigations. And, to my big surprise, the PC uses more power than laptop when its plugged in the power socket but turned off (30 Watts wasted power 24/7). My Acer 1644 laptop on average uses about 20 W, together with the adsl router, for websurfing.
Further info can be found here:
Mains Power Meter
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=ms6115
Check your Power Consumption...Finally
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/820823.html
Bought myself an AC Power Meter from Jaycar
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=2&c=9&t=16559
----------
IMHO, Laptops/Notebooks should be the future of general computing if we want to do our bit towards easing the global warming problem.
253 • Re 239....Has Microsoft got a "patent" on the term "Service Pack"? (by Numero Uno Precedes 2 on 2008-05-24 06:53:25 GMT from Australia)
239 • Suse SP2 (by RC on 2008-05-23 14:23:13 GMT from United States)
I am not that familiar with this. Is this the first time that Suse has referred to an update to its distro as a "Service Pack"? If so, that is very scary sounding. Definitely sounds like they are emulating Windows with that terminology.
That should answer your silly question! :-)
254 • Ok, I played around with Ubu 8.04 a bit more and here are ---> (by My Discoveries on 2008-05-24 07:23:34 GMT from Australia)
/usr/share/displayconfig-gtk = Screen and Graphics
Display Applet/Utility that does NOT show up on the menus from the "Alternate-i386-cd-iso" install-----> Ubuntu BUG!
There are some useful utilities/tools out in the "Universe" repos, e.g. Boot-Up Manager, Storage Device Manager, etc, but they are a bit rough in comparison to the openSuse and Mandriva (and some of Fedora's) polished and much more comprehensive set. But at least it shows that the "Community" is aware of what is needed and doing something about it. I also don't like the fact that package changelog info can not be read in the package manger itself but you need to open the file separately just to check that info.
And I think I found another BUG in the "Gnome System Monitor" application! When opened in the resources mode it causes cpu to run between 22 - 30 % load and openSuse (on same machine and on notebook) runs between 3-6% (same for Fedora 9 live CD).
If there any Buntu Boys reading this - CHECK "Gnome System Monitor" CPU (over) load!!!
Have a good weekend!
255 • RE: # 247 (by Anonymous on 2008-05-24 09:33:57 GMT from Italy)
"Hate Ubuntu? What, are they Windows now? Come to think about it, how do we feel about Suse? You know, that Linux distro that made a deal with the Devil!"
For me openSUSE works very well and that is all that matters to me.
Debian works fine as well, but openSUSE has some advantages, like its frequent release schedule, tons of tools (YaST keeps getting better all the time), beautiful artwork...
Besides, this infamous deal between Novell and Microsoft is way too overhyped:
http://en.opensuse.org/FAQ:Novell-MS
256 • @240 What is the price of eggs in China, as you are an expert. (by dbrion on 2008-05-24 13:29:05 GMT from France)
"One is expensive hardware that you have to program yourself,"
As are any new prototypes....
The ratio of 1/20 is known...
"the other is a successful Linux distribution, if your even referring to Ubuntu. Don't know what UBUlinux is"
Ah, you speak about the surrealistic, monopolistic _caricature_ of a distro?
Which tries to synchronize its bugs?
And speaking of success with such a thing is an intellectual bug or a crookery . .. as is new HW bashing, which is often linked with the same kind of "users" (sorry, I know the price of great series ad the price of protoptypes -a convenient way to know at what time one may buy...- : as far as Chinese eggs are concerned, who cares).
257 • 256 • @240 What is the price of eggs in China, (by Confused Consumer on 2008-05-24 15:42:46 GMT from United States)
Exactly. You fell into my trap!
Your last sentence reveals it all...Who cares!
No one cares about the price of eggs OR the $1500 non usable graphic board.
But my other point was in referring to the useless $1500 graphic board , then you from.out.of.no.where mentioned Ubuntu. It would be like someone discussing quantum physics at a Bar Mitzvah ---No place there OR here.
258 • Root of the problem (by Ubuntu User on 2008-05-24 17:32:52 GMT from United States)
Those using UBUNTU 9.04 LTS Harty Heron
and want to use root terminal, go to the following:
/usr/share/applications
Look for "Root Terminal"
You can then copy&paste to desktop, and have root access.
259 • Tain even no way to wifi this Tosheeba (by Alloowishus from Old Alabama on 2008-05-24 19:52:17 GMT from United States)
Dang, folks. I been round and round Ubuntu and Mepis and Linux Questions dot org and followin all the suggestions and instructions and stuff.
Still ainta gotten this here thing to go on the air with nothin cept Windows Vista.
I want that there "Anti-X" Mepis goodie to work here:
- Toshbiba A205 S5809
- Realtek 8187b (the problem) sittin on USB (not PCI, the other problem)
Ndiswrapper helps a bit, but still won't even connect, heck.
The talk is that the new kernel has a problem but older kernels didn't, but I'm a wonderin if this will be fixed in later kernels or, and this would suit me fine, if there is a fix for this new kernel, maybe a patch.
Tried cuervo's patched driver for the 8187b, no workee. Tried downloading the driver from Realtek and using it with ndiswrapper, no workee.
260 • I may scream (by WyndRyder on 2008-05-24 19:59:18 GMT from United States)
For #252a
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20080521/bs_n...
Greenpeace freaks say we need "greener" game consoles.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080523/ts_...
Sunscreen lotion a threat to coral?
Everything is gonna destroy the earth or kill us.
Will you tree hugging freaks give IT A REST!!!!!!!!
261 • Exterm why? (by the exterminator on 2008-05-24 20:20:46 GMT from Canada)
I assumed that the worst moderator in linux history had been retired by the pclos crew , but no hes back and as rude/ignorant as ever. Such a shame as the new mods were polite and helpfull.
exterm please go back on retirement , you are ruining a perfectly good forum
262 • 261 (by texasmike on 2008-05-25 02:40:30 GMT from United States)
I blew off pclos long ago because of their moderators. Never looked back.
263 • TinyMe (by capricornus on 2008-05-25 06:27:36 GMT from Belgium)
TinyMe disappointed me, it seems I can't get it working as it should or as I would like it.
When I found out how to get my internet connection running, I was faced with the fact I don't like Opera too much, but in the repositories I can't find Firefox.
In Opera, audacious is opened to play a pls-file on DI.fm, but then nothing happens. At that moment, I already quit, I mark the CD with a giant X. Too Tiny for Me.
I'm writing this with Puppy4 on an USB stick, FF 2 and OpenOffice 2.2 (which I found somewhere) loaded at start and working flawlessly, playing the pls-file without a problem (WINE IS a problem though, which I regret).
264 • peecee linux oh ess (by Joey on 2008-05-25 11:18:49 GMT from United States)
The forum admins at the pclinuxos may be volunteers unpaid.
That can grind on a person who has been doing it too long. It's like any volunteer anywhere; if the heart is no longer in it for the cause, then scram time approacheth. :)
Better leave or you'll wreck the place.
265 • RE 257 (by dbrion on 2008-05-25 13:23:52 GMT from France)
"But my other point was in referring to the useless $1500 graphic board , then you from.out.of.no.where mentioned Ubuntu. "
Hardware bashing (espcially innovating one) and UBUggy distro looooving are two parts of a technique (not an ideology, of course) despising innovation and promoting parasitism and SheepEat begging.
This is the future GNUlinux audience, I suppose...
266 • RE 245 UBUlinux great (vibrant, of course) fora... (by dbrion on 2008-05-25 14:18:49 GMT from France)
"the great support through the forums really helps."
I suppose that @247, (perhaps @196 : an UBUser was happy to find an answer, too) posts here show that they are not sufficient (once I read it : there were
* 99% misspeelings (used cell phones?),
*0.9% quatsh -UBU is graat, I hoote window$$$ in every declination- and ....
*0.1 % of potentially useful hints -I did not try, in viewing such a mess-
KimTjik @226 idea of using UBUlinux massive experience to find HW issues (and solve them) could be limited by this complexity (which seems encouraged, as google hits are -technically, of course!- supposed to be of better quality than ideological problem solving : having messy fora leads to more google trend "results"). This is about the same complexity argument as Béranger (in another domain)'s one - his was bug detecting, mine is useful information finding-
267 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-05-25 20:13:52 GMT from Canada)
264 - The problem with the pclos mod is that he sticks around hoping that one day pclos will be bought for millions and hell make a buck - good ol american capitalism
268 • ref# 266 in to reference to your correction... (by Teacher on 2008-05-25 23:37:52 GMT from United States)
"* 99% misspeelings (used cell phones?)"
Shouldn't that be, misspellings
269 • re 260....Greener Game Consoles ----> Outdoors Sport! (by Go Green on 2008-05-26 01:39:46 GMT from Australia)
Greenpeace freaks say we need "greener" game consoles.
And they are making the right call, IMHO!
PC and Console Gamers are NOT "Cool" in my books. Waste too much juice (electricity) for no good reason and could benefit from playing real games - sport.
But it is OK for those that are physically/mentally impaired to use them for remedial/rehab treatment.
Money talks and BS walks-----> everyone will soon watch how much power they use because their hip pocket will be hit harder than ever, just like the price of petrol has forced many to reconsider how (or if) they use a car for transport and what type of car they drive. Which cars are more popular with buyers, 4 cylinder ones or V8s? :-)
Prevention is better than cure!
270 • Linux haters, and also comment to #94(Don - Ubuntu Hate) (by John L on 2008-05-26 03:44:54 GMT from Australia)
Further comments to Don in #94; "I would guess that the Ubuntu haters are the ones who prefer to keep LInux to themselves as a technically-oriented avocational OS."
Yes, i think you could be right.
In regards to programming geeks wanting to maintain their circle, than have it change. I think it is a psychological sub conscious thing, or not necesarily realised by all in that circle.
I noticed that some over zealous proponents have this us Vs them mentality, which i think is essentially a perpetuation of hatred in itself, for as long as that attitude is maintained. Hatred is rejection, and a waste of energy for achieving and end. There are those who buy into the hatred, but there are those who are paid to hate (from those who stand to lose, and prefer to chop down what they see as a threat to their status, or just greedy and want it all to themselves- Divide and conquer, i think is their srategy )
I was told by zealous Linux proponents this (Linux) is good, its easy, it just works, the best, better than micrsoft, MS is not good, etc. Over six months i burnt cd after cd, dvd after dvd, and tried a dozen different systems and different versions of some Linux. So was quite a few. Both Live, and HDD installs.
My experience was not as i was told, and i came to the conclusions that this required a considerably greater investment of time and messing around, than i was prepared to do. This was not fun for me.
That was a year and a half ago, and some things have progressed, but not enough to be a serious contender to mainstream systems on a large scale basis. Its getting there, and Dell offering Ubuntu is one step closer towards it. I shared the truth of my world, and a very small number understood me, but far louder were they who defended their Geekdom, tooth and nail. (I mean no offence to anyone here.)
In the end, i would have been lot less efficient in Linux for what and how i use Windows XP. I do however like the principle of Open Source.
For that reason, at a later time when i consider myself ready to invest some time, i will consider switching over to Linux, which is why i check back every now and again to see how things are progressing (and once in a while, trying the odd distro here and there) Supporting Open Source, also takes the suport away from principles exercised by MS, for which i no longer hate, but simply would not wish to suport it, if it eas to do so.
I think part of the haters are the ones who believed the over zealous proponents of Linux, and found out it was not as it was told, and venting back to the linux community to where they can perhaps. Thats what i happened with me, and i have had that impression with others who could be newbies too. Of course the tooth and nail geeks would not accept the venting, but offer that they too could become one of them. Its easy, ill hold your hand and guide you through to geekdom. Ubuntu were the best for this, and really friendly.
Sure, its easy, my grandmother can pick up a screw driver, a meter, and a spanner, but why would she open hood to make adjusments to an old model car, when there are other models that have a micro chip that handles all the functions, and at most, might need to activate something at the bush of a button. Its not for everyone. And If you find what your happy with, then good for your. If it does not, then move on and spend your personal resources to find what you are happy with. Its a better quality of life.
271 • re 268 typos and their translation @269 'green' PCs (by dbrion on 2008-05-26 06:29:02 GMT from France)
@Teacher
Yes, it should : but people noticing typos like to make some themselves in purpose ('fôte d'orttograffe ' is, alas, part of the french reviewers written slang....).
@260,269 : having low power consuming laptops means you can use them a longer time in a train, say... As some desktops have a battery backup (useful in countries with power shortage, about half of the countries in my opinion), it is the same advantage .. it is not only an economic/ecological matter...
272 • RE: 270 - humans are different (by KimTjik on 2008-05-26 08:15:50 GMT from Sweden)
While respecting your views, there's especially one part of the reasoning that isn't correct, at least in my view:
You say "in my world", and that can never be wrong, because your experience isn't nobody's else. However by writing "...not enough to be a serious contender to mainstream systems on a large scale", you make a generalized conclusion based on "your world".
I do the same mistake, no doubt about that. I'm far from qualifying as a geek, but *nix is so much logical to my mindset that I'm sometimes going mad when dealing with Windows systems (unfortunately my work). I'm however not like everybody else.
I view the "Linux conquer the world and eradicate Microsoft from the surface of this world" as an uninteresting and counter-productive approach (still I complain a lot directly to Microsoft about their business practises). More important is that for a large number - doesn't matter if this is a majority or minority - Linux/BSD makes more sense and is more logical it it's structure and allow them to work with less limitations. Others have other preferences.
There's a danger in demanding Linux to become "exactly what I expect it to be", because that would mean that we selfishly expect our way of doing things to be better than other's. Still the variety of Linux is so great that there'll be something for many, at least more or less.
PS. Don't attack the geeks in general. The annoying ones are usually self-proclaimed geeks with a doubtful CV. Many true geeks are the ones who improve the Linux experience for you. DS.
Number of Comments: 272
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