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1 • Thanks again Ladislav (by Bill Savoie on 2008-02-11 12:01:53 GMT from United States) |
Very nice work. I will try out Zenwalk 5.0 in the next few days. Always a nice read. I think Mark Twain is what more of us in the USA need to read! Silence is much better than anger.
2 • Zenwalk & openSUSE (by moondowner on 2008-02-11 12:11:36 GMT from Macedonia)
Ladislav, that was a nice review of Zenwalk, thanks! I'm glad to see that there is a user-friendly fork from Slackware like Zenwalk. There are a lot improvements from the last version i tried (4) but it would be nice if there was a KDE or GNOME version of the distribution.
Also, I tried the Alpha 2 of openSUSE, and I must say that the KDE 4.0.1 enviroment is pretty stable. Compared to KDE 4.0.1 running on Mandriva 2008 (which I also tried) and to the Kubuntu KDE 4.0.1, openSUSE seems more stable. I think that when the final/public release will be released, openSUSE 11.0 will have a stable KDE 4 desktop, caue the Enterprise verion of SUSE is built on top of openSUSE, and Novell can't afford to have an unstable desktop.
By the way I took about ten screenshots (mostly of the new installer) you can find them here:
3 • gOS To Become Just Another Ubuntu (by Soloact on 2008-02-11 12:18:41 GMT from United States)
So, gOS will become just another Ubuntu by switching to Gnome. I've had a lot of success loading it on laptops in its' current form with Enlightenment as the desktop. Using gOS with Gnome, why bother? Just use Ubuntu or Linux Mint. IMHO their use of Enlightenment for the desktop makes it a good way to help others get started with Linux. Do they really want to be just another Ubuntu, only with different artwork and extra links to Google?
4 • gOS (by RipVanWinkle on 2008-02-11 12:32:47 GMT from United States)
i think the idea to switch gOS from Enlightenment to Gnome is a bad idea, considering gOS is targeted at low end hardware to keep the price down in the consumer market, i would think xfce would be more appropriate since xfce is much less demanding on resources...
5 • OpenSUSE Alpha2 & KDE4 (by PP on 2008-02-11 12:36:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think it's great that OpenSUSE has committed to early adoption of KDE4, for better or worse.
I really hope I have time to test it during the development process... unfortunately too much other work right now :-(
6 • Suse is back (by Gene Venable on 2008-02-11 12:45:48 GMT from United States)
I had abandoned Suse for the last year or so, after years of use, but I'm back with the new version, which correctly handles my oldish graphics card and sound. KDE 4 seems ugly and a bit ungainly to me, but I'm sure that will improve, or I can always switch over to Gnome. I have two distros on my desktop, Linux Mint and Suse, with various versions of Linux Puppy for my laptops. I am set for awhile, though looking forward to trying the new Slax and perhaps a new version of Wolvix is on its way too, I hope. That should keep me busy as well as my new Star Trek theme on my Nokia N800...
7 • Suse (by LightRider on 2008-02-11 13:03:42 GMT from United States)
Imagine a newbie arriving at the eighth screen entitled "Suggested Partitioning"
which was posted by Moondowner above. He is toast at this point.
What ails these people , are they too egotistical to look at PCLinuxOS
and see how this should be handled UNDERSTANABLY.
Of course i know this will fall on deaf ears, some things never change.
8 • RE 7 Newbies can read documentation (by dbrion on 2008-02-11 13:15:42 GMT from France)
and understand (sorry for the case) what they do. .... if it is written in their native language . They can also ask trustable friends to explain them, find Linux Identity Kit at their newspaper's sellers(it is correctly translated : they have a printed doc in the moment they cannot acces the web) .
If someone is absent-minded enough to install without some a priori knowledge (as there is an already installed OS), does he deserve support? Is this audience such numerous/ interesting in the long term?
9 • Susan and Zenwalk Linux 5.0 (by Béranger on 2008-02-11 13:29:03 GMT from Romania)
Slackware, Vector and Wolvix: they ALL have the full corresponding source packages in the repositories, for all the maintained releases.
Zenwalk... has NOT.
This is the #1 reason for NOT USE Zenwalk.
10 • Zenwalk 5 (by digger on 2008-02-11 13:39:47 GMT from United States)
Worked great on my HP laptop, including wifi.
RE 7: Can't "newbies" learn? I did.
11 • No subject (by Eddie Wilson at 2008-02-11 13:46:06 GMT from United States)
I think that its better to go to Gnome. I never thought that Enlightenment was a very good desktop. Its ashame that they kept that stupid tool bar at the bottom tho. This is just my opinion so there will be no debate on my part.
12 • gOS (by Fesek on 2008-02-11 14:08:59 GMT from Ireland)
With the huge range of distros out there gOS stands no chance if it changes its strategy now. gOS should stick with enlightenment - If it does so I think it might mature into something worthwhile to use.
13 • archlinux review (by Anonymous on 2008-02-11 14:22:24 GMT from Canada)
2 archlinux review:
14 • RE: 7 (by jack on 2008-02-11 14:34:28 GMT from Canada)
Please show a PLOS screenshot of the equivalent point in the install process.
In general, partitioning, and Grub, are hazardous processes for a newbie. It is all too easy to wipe existing data or be unable to access it.
There seems to be very little attention paid to these problems, and the fequent occurence of "howto's" that use the whole hard drive (thereby avoiding the issues) does not help.
15 • Re: 10 (by earlycj5 on 2008-02-11 14:42:31 GMT from United States)
I sure did learn as a "newbie".
I guess I'm one of those "Deaf ears" since I find OpenSUSE's partitioning to be WAY more easy to use than Ubuntu's.
16 • gOS (by Suseforge on 2008-02-11 14:44:39 GMT from United States)
gOS stood out because they did something differently. With switching to ***buntu
they will just be lost in the shuffle of the 90 other clones there are out there. Its said to see an innovative idea die. On the other hand maybe Sun will bring back Project Looking Glass.
17 • gOS (by Suse at 2008-02-11 14:48:46 GMT from United States)
Before you hammer me for corrections i meant to say "With switching to Gnome" not ***buntu. Its early and the coffee isnt ready.
18 • gOS to gnome (by Bryan Siegfried on 2008-02-11 15:11:31 GMT from United States)
Switchign gOS to gnome is an odd idea. After all, why do we need a ubuntu-based distro using gnome? Ubuntu uses gnome. I tire of people assuming xfce is so much faster than gnome or kde. In the end, there is little difference. If you want a faster system with older hardware, a windowing environment (fluxbox, jwm, icewm, etc) is a much more suitable choice than a full desktop environment (xfce, gnome, and kde).
19 • Zenwalk (by Anonymous on 2008-02-11 15:20:02 GMT from Malaysia)
Zenwalk is the only distro configured correctly my old desktop's display card and monitor. Tried to use Sidux on it but the display was very nasty. So now...I've Sidux on my laptop and Zenwalk on my desktop.
20 • RE: #9 (by Robert on 2008-02-11 15:38:14 GMT from Germany)
What do you complain about? That there are no source packages provided? Or that they are not provided for all releases. To the first point - you get all build scripts installed along with their packages. So rebuilding a package is the easiest I have ever seen in any distro (among them Slack and Vector). So I would not count that as a reason not to use Zen. If you want to rebuild, you usually grab the latest from the official website, not some stuff already in the repos that you can get precompiled. If you are into that you might be a Gentoo user without noticing it ;).
Unfortunately they do not provide some kind of "stable maintainance" repo for older releases. But I found this to be an acceptable drawback (every distro got some).
21 • RE: 18 • gOS to gnome (by Bryan Siegfried (by RipVanWinkle on 2008-02-11 16:03:12 GMT from United States)
Gnome is a heck of a lot more resource intensive than xfce, and uses a heck of a lot more disk space too!
whats with these gnome apologists? personally i think gnome is a buggy resource intensive hog i wont have on any of my systems, would prefer to use xfce or kde-3.5.8 until kde-4.1 or kde-4.2 (when kde-4.x gets more work done on it)
you ever try to build gnome from source? just look at all those packages in gnome's ftp server and show me a recipe with the order in which all those packages need to be built, and what are necessary and what are only optional, you cant because gnome as turned in to a complicated mess which goes against the very philosophies and principals of what unix & linux was meant to be = simple, efficient & elegant...
22 • @19 • Zenwalk (by Anonymous on 2008-02-11 16:34:13 GMT from Malaysia)
Did you try Vector?
23 • RE: 20 • RE: #9 (by Robert on 2008-02-11 15:38:14 GMT from Germany) (by Béranger on 2008-02-11 16:36:45 GMT from Romania)
I don't care about the build scripts that would download from upstream.
The GNU General Public License does not care about getting the sources by using build scripts. GPL only mentions FULL SOURCES.
Slackware understands that. Wolvix understands that. Vector understands that. Debian understands that. Red Hat understands that. Zenwalk and Dropline seem to have difficulties in reading the GPL.
24 • Zen&Mint... (by capricornus on 2008-02-11 16:47:14 GMT from Belgium)
...on a Sempron2600 256MBRAM in dual boot. Both XFCE, recent and fully updated. Running Frontpage thru CrossOver/Wine + the browser + VLC, it is clear that on Mint I easily see a speed advantage, especially editing large html-files.
I like Zen very much, but I love Mint.
25 • No subject (by werner , in Cayenne at 2008-02-11 17:02:21 GMT from France)
zenwalk since time has the problem that the tk and tcl packages are incompatible to the Slackware sistem and dont work together with its other packages, that continues on the 52 version, and should be fixed finally
26 • Defending GNOME (by Raphael Frey on 2008-02-11 17:15:46 GMT from Switzerland)
if you don't like GNOME, let it be your problem or if there are more GNOME haters open up a Anti-GNOME homepage, but please don't use such uncultivated words on Distrowatch! You are right that GNOME is more resource intensive than XFCE but KDE is much more resource intensive than GNOME. Furthermore it really is NOT TRUE THAT GNOME IS BUGGY. KDE (especially the new KDE 4) is much more buggy! I personally like both, GNOME and KDE (the "old" more stable version).
27 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-02-11 17:17:55 GMT from Switzerland)
How do you want to build GNOME form source without reading the release notes (http://www.gnome.org/start/2.20/notes/en/)? If you really want to compile GNOME, read the paragraph "Installing GNOME. There you will find the order to compile the modules.
28 • Defending GNOME (2) (by Raphael Frey on 2008-02-11 17:18:20 GMT from Switzerland)
How do you want to build GNOME form source without reading the release notes (http://www.gnome.org/start/2.20/notes/en/)? If you really want to compile GNOME, read the paragraph "Installing GNOME. There you will find the order to compile the modules.
29 • Defending GNOME (3) (by Raphael Frey on 2008-02-11 17:22:15 GMT from Switzerland)
Sorry for sending it twice...
PS: You will find the paragraph "Installing GNOME" at the bottom of the page.
30 • Zenwalk (by Todd on 2008-02-11 17:31:43 GMT from United States)
Zenwalk is OK. I have used it several times. Anyone liking the concept after reading the review might want to consider Vector or Wolvix. They are both better in my opinion although they are all, frankly, pretty similar.
31 • No need to defend GNOME (by Bryan Siegfried on 2008-02-11 17:53:54 GMT from United States)
You may have misunderstood my comments. Were you replying to
"(by Bryan Siegfried (by RipVanWinkle on 2008-02-11.."? He was replying to me. I have found in my personal experience only minimal or no difference between KDE, GNOME, and XFCE in usability. Personally, I am more of a KDE fan, but I have used GNOME for years back in my ubuntu days. I am back to KDE now that kubuntu has improved lately.
Howeverm I have tried rough comparisons of xubuntu, kubuntu, and ubuntu on older hardware and found little difference between them. Maybe xfce has more room for minimizing the system, eg. an older version of Vector defaulted to a very snappy implementation of xfce.
However, whatever speed benefit exists from the GNOME or KDE -> XCFE transition pales in comparison to a step down to a basic window manager like icewm, jwm, fluxbox, or one of countless other options. Some functionality may be lost, but when combined with a file manager like rox, it can be quite usable. One can see this with puppy linux and dsl linux.
I am note hating on xfce, but I don't think speed is its primary strength. I am certainly not against gnome, either. I think gnome is great, and it is indeed very stable. Our office is currently all on kubuntu. I don't think we will be migrating to kde4 anytime soon, as even kde 4.01 just doesn't have the stability yet. We will stay with the 3.5.x line, or even transition back to gnome if kubuntu makes a rash change to kde4.
32 • RE 21, 12 : desktop wars (by dbrion on 2008-02-11 17:55:21 GMT from France)
In 2004, as I bought 256 M supp RAM, I asked : "which desktop should I installed" and was answered "*to-day* ,KDE is less buggy than gnome".=> I remain a KDE user..
OTOH, both of my colleagues have used GNOME since 2004/2005 => that means a way of *empirical* testing which cannot be achieved by distro-hopping.
The only flaws they saw were
a) with USB automounting/autocrahing (was it really Gnome's fault?), and was bypassed with some epoxy glue in a plug...
b) at the beginning, they had only 256 M RAM, which was *at times* uncomfortable for a 8 hours a day use.... The simple, efficient and *inelegant* fix was ... to buy more RAM....
With the huge range of distros out there gOS stands no chance if it changes its strategy now"
I agree : There are hundreds of distros, some of which being more than redundant (to be very kind)..... and perhaps 20 desktops, which can make different categories of users happy or rescue a buggy version of their "competitor" (like the right wheel competes with the left one!!!)
and elive is little supported, and might deserve more development/promotion ... but, as gOs is very young, perhaps she wonot make its users base quite desparate...
33 • No subject (by Fotograf on 2008-02-11 18:14:40 GMT from Canada)
I've put my PCLinux OS 2008 (minim) into 1Gb USB Key - after some remastering (NVIDIA drivers & RealAudia & VLC e.g)
Works fine from USB :-) The only problem: it does not *remember* my Favourites and other *fine-tunings* at the next reboot :-(
Is it because of the LIVE mode or I just need to enable *writing* option to my USB stick ? How to do it ?
34 • To ladislav: did you add bio-linux to distrowatch database?? (by Killer1987 on 2008-02-11 18:37:57 GMT from Italy)
here's the link, it seems an interesting project:
35 • Joe "Zonker" Brockmeier (by Anonymous Coward on 2008-02-11 18:42:16 GMT from United States)
Joe "Zonker" Brockmeier can start by convining me that Suse has not sold the soul of open source to the Redmond robber barons with their licensing deal. Gonna be a tough sell...
36 • RE: No need to defend GNOME (by Raphael Frey on 2008-02-11 18:53:20 GMT from Switzerland)
Hey sorry Bryan,
I didn't see that RipVanWinkle wrote this comment. I also didn't want to instigate a desktop environment war or even a desktop/distro war. And I also didn't say that I find it a good idea that gOS changed his desktop environment to GNOME -- this is their problem (if ever it is a problem). But when you want to hear my opinion: I find it a good idea to change to GNOME but I wonder why there must be a new Ubuntu-Clone. I like the diversity of Linux distributions, so everyone can install the distro which suits the best for ones wishes but I really don't see the sense of making distro clones...
So, if RipVanWinkle is still online, please read comments 26ff!!!
37 • RE 35 (by moondowner on 2008-02-11 19:02:05 GMT from Macedonia)
I'm hoping that Joe "Zonker" will do a good job, which will affect povitively to the open source community, and to openSUSE as well. Novell did made some strange deals with Microsoft, but the only deal I'm afraid is the one made with Turbolinux and Mandriva by Microsoft. And another thing, the soul of open source cannot be sold :) If U sell a software, automaticaly it isn't open source :) And everyhing released under GNU, GPL, LGPL etc is permanently open source. Apple adopted open source, Google did also, and they started to prosper, the only thing left is Microsoft to adopt this ideology :) There's a new era coming on, and not all players will get the green benjamins :)
38 • Benchmarking desktop environments (by Bryan Siegfried on 2008-02-11 19:08:08 GMT from United States)
This is an article by Michael Larabel of Phoronix running ubuntu, kubuntu, and xubuntu through their paces on some basic benchmarks. The performance is fairly similar. Although they pose xubuntu may run better on older hardware, I don't see that Phoronix has done part 2 of these benchmarks yet.
39 • RE 38 : tehre is a straightforward way to compare RAM greediness (by Dbrion on 2008-02-11 19:18:49 GMT from France)
As qemu or VMplayer can limit the emulated system RAM ressource, and as Mandriva2008.1 (beta) offers many desktops (I bet other distr do/will do) the easiest way is to install a virtual Mandriva (anyway : it is a beta: no trouble with real install) , *without swap file* (if it crashes, it will be sooner) and to make her doing a real task such as compiling huge c++ programs (or treating huge pictures) and wait untill it starves...
There was no difference as I tried it (but perhaps am mistaken) between Xfce, GNome and KDE and the real improvement I noticed was with ICEwm... (Mandriva 2008.1 and likely -to day or next time- others offers these desktops as a choice before starting....). One may be sure that exactly the same apps are launched (!= x,y,zUBU)
40 • zen , @13 (by Daniel on 2008-02-11 20:43:23 GMT from Germany)
Zen works relly well and fast. With the repositories im a little unimpressed.
@13 Im trying Arch at the moment too. Im loving the packagemanagement (pacman, abs and aur). Really fast.
41 • 20 (by Anonymous on 2008-02-11 20:48:47 GMT from United States)
The GPL says they have to provide source. Period.
Or don't you have the GPL translated to your language? It does not say you are free to disregard the parts you think are inconvenient.
This need not be discussed: Zenwalk is in violation of the GPL and they have no rights regarding redistribution of the software.
Doesn't matter if you call someone a troll for asking, the Zenwalk distro is still illegal. Please forward questions on the GPL to the FSF.
42 • No subject (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-11 21:33:32 GMT from France)
At least in the European Union, and also in countries libe Brazil, the Consumer's Laws forbid any forced link of merchantils, no matter if billed or gratis. When the GPL try to force the distribution of binary codes together with source code, making the legality of one of them conditioned on the other, then the GPL is illegal in these countries. Because of this, zenwalk is not illegal.
Open Source a d Free software birth from a certain idea. We have to see that the previous 'economists' or dictators are not substituted by new ones -- which as the history shows then often have the tendency to become worser even. In the open source branche are all kinds of abuses , of corrupt people which want to rule us; it's important to perceive this
43 • Re: 42 - Zenwalk and the GPL (by vzduch on 2008-02-11 22:03:52 GMT from Germany)
«At least in the European Union, and also in countries libe Brazil, the Consumer's Laws forbid any forced link of merchantils, no matter if billed or gratis. When the GPL try to force the distribution of binary codes together with source code, making the legality of one of them conditioned on the other, then the GPL is illegal in these countries.»
Werner, you'd be right if people were forced to _take_ the source code together with the binary programmes. Fact is that they are not. The only obligation here is for the vendor (here: the distributor) to _offer_ the source code along with the binaries.
No one user is in any way forced to download the source code if he/she doesn't want or need it.
44 • @33 (by Warp0 on 2008-02-11 22:25:57 GMT from United States)
Did you follow the instructions for persistence on the pendrivelinux site? I haven't tried it but it appears pretty simple.
45 • Consumer Laws (by Haha on 2008-02-11 22:44:23 GMT from United States)
Werner, you simply don't understand the issue. These two things (GPL concerning distribution of software the rights to which belong to the authors and consumer laws regarding the bundling of software or hardware to force certain products on consumers by leverage of one's monopoly) have _nothing_ to do with each other.
46 • re 8 Newbies (by dragonmouth on 2008-02-11 23:41:34 GMT from United States)
You are making some erroneous assumptions. 1) you assume newbies already have some Linux knowledge. By definition a NEWBIE has little or no prior Linux knowledge. 2) Newbies can read documentation IF they know where and how to find it. 3) That documentation is not always easy to comprehend, even if written in native language. 4) What does a newbie do if no trusted friend with knowledge of Linux is available? 5) What is Linux Identity Kit?
I have installed several Linux distros. I even managed to get on the Internet with a couple of them. However, I consider myself very much a Linux newbie because I have done it mostly by blind luck. You were not available to lead me by the hand. Slackware appeals to the tinkerer in me and because of the control it gives me over the OS, but its installer is at times vague and confusing to a newbie. Take partitioning for example. Nowhere does it state what partitions are required or what size are they supposed to be. Slackware will not automatically use existing partitions like many other distros. It wants to be told which partition is to be used for what.
BTW - newbies DO read distrowatch. Posts such as yours is what gives Linux users the reputation of being intolerant of newcomers and of Linux being a closed cabal to which one needs to know the secret handshake to be admitted.
47 • Dreamlinux (by ILoveMudkips on 2008-02-12 00:06:26 GMT from Canada)
Hey, news guys, there is a new Dreamlinux beta.
48 • RE: 46 • re 8 Newbies (by dragonmouth (by RipVanWinkle on 2008-02-12 00:31:50 GMT from United States)
yes you can skip the partitioning part of the Slackware install and select existing disk partitions to set your mount points...
49 • Keeping The Furnace Hot and KDE 4 (by Landor)
I always find myself amused my people talking about companies selling their souls. Someone going on about how they will be stopping dealing with this project or that now, "due to some widely publicized yet lacking in substantial evident facts" from the horse's mouth so to speak.
Would the same people who worked for said company/project and looked to it for earning their living, supporting their children, paying the mortgage/bills, and saving for that dream of retirement on a deserted beach be as quick to say, omg, I will never work for them again! Then instantly quit?
My belief is no they would not. The reason being? They would understand as an employee business is business, agreements in companies foster continued business, which in turn continue to bring a pay cheque/salary home to the wife and kids.
Hypocrisy is a valiant and noble end to all personal justifications.
I personally don't like the looks of the new KDE. I noticed that they won't even consider an option for someone to have the classic menu style (thank you to whomever posted the link a number of months ago) which sort've left a bitter taste in my mouth. Not even giving some users a second thought in he evolution of their product.
Regardless though, I am going to give the newest openSUSE a spin tomorrow and take a long look at it before I make my decision.
Whoe knows, my views may chancge. I wonder if others in our community could learn to be that more open....
Keep your stick on the ice...
50 • Re 49....Don't make any final "decisions" on an Alpha2 version of openSUSE 11 (by Wait for GM - Final Release! on 2008-02-12 02:16:51 GMT from Australia)
Regardless though, I am going to give the newest openSUSE a spin tomorrow and take a long look at it before I make my decision.
Who knows, my views may chancge. I wonder if others in our community could learn to be that more open....
OpenSUSE Alpha releases are generally buggy, i.e they are released for testing purposes. It is not wise to make and judgment decisions on Alpha/Beta editions of ANY distro, IMHO!
51 • newbies (by outsider on 2008-02-12 02:34:55 GMT from Canada)
I agree with dragonmouth. It's the condescending comments from some people in the linux community that projects such a bad image about the linux community.
Have you ever seen the big names like Linus Torvalds use the same language towards newbie?
By the way linux doesn't need one thousand variants of Linux. It needs a few good/complete linux distros.
I'm new to linux myself, have downloaded numerous variants of Linux and none of them have installed without problems. Each one of them had to have problem with some part of my pc. some with the modem, some with the graphics driver, some with the sound, some just hang or freezes during installation. some couldn't even detect my hard drive, while others can, some wouldn't even boot from the iso provided.... the list goes on and on....
However, I was able to install windows without any problem on the same machine. This is not to say that I like windows, but more to say this is how the linux distros should be. It's only in this way, the silent majority, which I form part of , will move to linux.... and then we will be able to say this is the year for linux to grab the desktop !!!
However I'm afraid this will not happen in the near future.
52 • KDE4.0 as default desktop? (by Gigi on 2008-02-12 02:59:50 GMT from Singapore)
Looks like the big distros are pushing to KDE4.0 (not KDE4 - it has been repeatedly pointed out by the KDE developers) as the default desktop. Already it seems Suse, Fedora and Kubuntu will go with KDE4.0. Slackware developer Patrick Volkerding has expressed high hopes on the new KDE as well. We will have to wait and see how this would change *NIX desktop computing in the coming years..
And, from my testing of KDE4.0 on Kubuntu, I can say that it is stable enough and the only thing is wait for more KDE4 apps to emerge ;-)
53 • Classic menu in KDE 4 (by Bryan Siegfried on 2008-02-12 03:01:17 GMT from United States)
While it is still too buggy for regular use, we have KDE 4 installed on my son's kubuntu 7.10 machine. The default menu reminds me of the menus I saw on screenshots of opensuse before (kickstart?), but there is also an option to add a "classic" menu. Maybe that was not true previously, or maybe it is something the kubuntu developers put in on their own.
54 • newbies (by jerrybee on 2008-02-12 03:08:23 GMT from United States)
Hooray for the comments posted in #46 and #51. As a newbie myself, I've struggled with most Linux distros, finally finding the most help in Linux Mint. I also tried FreeBSD and found an extremely helpful person there. There has been a problem in all versions of Ubuntu since Breezy, insofar as my hardware is concerned, and repeated requests for help with it have led me to conclude that "the powers that be" just don't think it's important or haven't seen my pleas. Same problem with Mint and other distros that evolve from Ubuntu.
I suspect that those folks knowledgeable in Linux have forgotten what it was like as a newbie, and I understand how that process of forgetting happens. But the newbies need a helping hand, not bad-mouthing. If Linux is to really grow, the newbies need to be nurtured, not ridiculed. Only in that way can more and more folks escape the clutches of Microsoft. And I think that's what all of us want.
55 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-02-12 03:10:37 GMT from United States)
> By the way linux doesn't need one thousand variants of Linux. It needs a few good/complete linux distros.
Humans don't need one thousand variants of food. They need a few good/complete meals.
Humans don't need one thousand variants of religion. They need a few good/complete religions.
Problem is, we might choose different foods or religion. It's okay to limit variety if I'm the one doing the limiting. Of course I can't say I've ever heard of a newbie struggling to get Ubuntu or Fedora going because Gobolinux and Wolvix exist.
56 • gnome vs xfce (by Bobby Hunter on 2008-02-12 03:16:48 GMT from United States)
You can have a fast/light gnome distro that is just as fast as any xfce distro. For proof, see Debris Linux which is a stripped down Ubuntu Gutsy that is less than 300 MB. I use it as a drop in replacement for Windows 98 on old hardware (500 - 900 MHz) that isn't powerful enough to run bloated monsters like Ubuntu/Fedora/Mandriva/Suse.
57 • Forgot to menion (by Bobby Hunter on 2008-02-12 03:19:04 GMT from United States)
Forgot to mention my point... Debris Linux would be a good base for gOS.
58 • Re #47 Dream Linux (by Glenn on 2008-02-12 03:28:56 GMT from Canada)
Thanks for the notification. i downloaded it and installed it under Virtualbox.
Liking the exotic I like what I have seen. I also like the XFCE desktop.
I'll shake it down the next couple of days if I can get time and will post here what i find unless someone beats me to it.
Points in favor.
I like the DCP-Control panel structure, it seems relatively easy for a newbie to handle in modifying the system configuration.
The ENGAGE-ADMIN you run from the SYSTEM Menu is a nice way to add/remove application Icons.
I have yet to determine where a handy dandy desktop switcher is but then I've only played with it for about 10-15 mins so far.
59 • RE 46 , 51 Stop playing violin with newsbies. (by dbrion on 2008-02-12 07:27:05 GMT from France)
"1) you assume newbies already have some Linux knowledge. By definition a NEWBIE has little or no prior Linux knowledge.
Every human being using a desktop (with a text processor!) , a microwave oven, an alarm clock, etc, can read.... docs are not that complicated. BTW surprised by "by definition". What is a rigorous definition?
"2) Newbies can read documentation IF they know where and how to find it.
They already found a PC... somewhere and somehow, and money to buy it (at least, I optimistically assume)....
" 3) That documentation is not always easy to comprehend, even if written in native language.
Doc is meant to be read, and be understood.... unless a pathological exception (it would be a great waste of time writing and reading complicated doc).
" 4) What does a newbie do if no trusted friend with knowledge of Linux is available? "
option 1 ) Manage, as did pple in the wild, wild West, some time ago.
option 2 ) Read docs , using his brains and eyes, like any human being in good health.
option 3) Have a PC with preinstalled linux (it exiists, you know... at least in the States)
option 4) ... or find a trusted friend (unless living in a desert -=> cf option 1 - or being a psychopath, it is possible).
There are many other options...
5) What is Linux Identity Kit?"
It is a cellulose magazine, I can find in any raailways station (I suppose it would be a crime selling it near highways) and based in Newark, USA... They ship for many interesting distributions :
* the install DVDss/CDs
* the way to install them...
60 • BSD Magazine (by Jack on 2008-02-12 08:07:09 GMT from Poland)
I'm wondering whether Software Wydawnictwo will release Polish version of BSDmag or even sell it in Poland.
61 • Expect OpenXML win for Microsoft at ISO ... (by Anonymous on 2008-02-12 09:43:13 GMT from Malaysia)
... with a little help from the GNOME Foundation.
62 • @40 (by Bestiapeluda on 2008-02-12 12:17:55 GMT from Argentina)
Once you try a rolling release distro like Arch, there is no turning back :)
63 • Install for Distribution when written up... (by Jim Duffield on 2008-02-12 12:48:24 GMT from Australia)
When the live Cd came I celebrated. Master stroke. But then I experieced different and differing quality and design live installs.
My main gripe when reading any write-up (critique?) is that the live install is often glossed over and with that I have an issue, more than one hard disk!
Would any reviewers reading this please comment on the ability of this supposed "helpful" live install to install across more than one hard disk? It is such a pain in the gluteus maximus to fix after an install, any potential user deserves to know how clever, or otherwise, the install utility really is.
64 • Dropline, Zenwalk & the GPL (by Ariszló on 2008-02-12 13:13:33 GMT from Hungary)
I am not a lawyer, I am just trying to figure out how the GPL requires distributing the source. Section 1 says that the source code may be distributed "in any medium." Dropline binaries are distributed via a bash script that downloads the packages from Dropline mirrors. Sources may be obtained exactly like that by running each package's build script distributed with the package itself. The build scripts are bash scripts that download the sources from upstream source repositories and build binaries from them. From a user's perspective, they are distributed similarly, both the binaries and the sources are distributed via the internet.
If you have an internet connection then you can get the source tarballs for Zenwalk similarly. However, Zenwalk also distributes iso's from which you can burn cd's and hand them over to people with no internet connection. That's tough because this way they may obtain the binaries but not the source.
IMHO, there is nothing wrong with Dropline or Zenwalk if you are connected to the net but cd's distributed to people with no internet connection are problematic.
65 • 60 common wonder (by dbrion on 2008-02-12 13:23:50 GMT from France)
"I'm wondering whether Software Wydawnictwo will release Polish version of BSDmag or even sell it in Poland"
I have the same wonder with ... France.Software Wydawnictwo can evolve very fast : in the beginning, articles in Linux+ (avalaible in railways stations newspapers sellers) were (likely) google translated from Polish... and what rescued them what their originality and intrinsic quality (they could teach something). To day, Linux+ seems very open to young writers (at least if they are innovating!) , but the task of proof checking/typo hunting cannot be done for French parts(GNU linux Mag and Linux Identity Kits are likely to remove typos).
Linux+ ships often distrs, not according to DW HPD but from a more serious choice : this month, Arch is shipped, with 3 well written pages explaining how to install , and they convinced me that the install could last one hour -but not more( : Mandriva takes 1/4 hr, Windows 1hour-.). If one is happy for months/years with Arch, is is not a waste of time.
The way they work seems to change fast and it would be nice to have a BSD magazine, getting lots of money, and a Solaris one at the newpapers sellers.
66 • Source distribution (by Gene Venable on 2008-02-12 13:57:45 GMT from United States)
"IMHO, there is nothing wrong with Dropline or Zenwalk if you are connected to the net but cd's distributed to people with no internet connection are problematic"
If the distributor has to worry about whether the user has an Internet connection, what about users who have no mail service? I think that if there is some way that the user can get the source (and the distributor can ASSUME that the user can get an Internet connection), there is no problem.
What I am saying is that cd's distributed to people with no internet connection are only problematic to the users without the connection, they are not problematic to the distributor, who has no obligation to make source available to every human on the planet, such as people living on monasteries on top of mountains without Internet connections (or mail service).
67 • RE 46 , 51 Stop playing violin with newsbies. (by dbrion on 2008-02-12 07:27:05 (by BSDUser on 2008-02-12 14:03:21 GMT from United States)
Newbies are not just in Linux. There are more newbies in the Windows community. People buy a computer, press a power button and that is it. After a while they are full of viruses, adwares....and ready to pay someone to help the or call friends...etc.
68 • Zenwalk and the GPL (by Anonymous on 2008-02-12 14:28:06 GMT from United States)
If you have questions, do a search for Mepis and GPL compliance. Here is one such story:
If you distribute binaries of GPLed software, you have to make the source available in some form, with the option to charge to cover the cost of the media. Mepis makes the source available on DVD.
For an example of how not to handle the situation, look here:
69 • @64 (by john frey on 2008-02-12 16:37:09 GMT from Canada)
I'm not a lawyer either and I try to understand as well. I think a good way to approach this is to look at the intent of the GPL.
The intent as I know it is to make the source available so that I can read it and modify it if I choose. Downloading sources via build scripts does not provide that since the sources are built into binaries and I expect the original source is in a tmp directory only so long as it is being compiled.
Another intent is that I may pass along any changes I make to the source. How may I do that when the sources I download are compiled into binaries?
If there is a way around the GPL by providing download scripts that download and compile (and I doubt it is this easy to manipulate) then they certainly don't fulfill the intent. Since I am not a lawyer I would rather the intent of the GPL be followed rather than the legal minimum. The intent is perfectly spelled out in the 4 freedoms.
70 • addendum (by john frey on 2008-02-12 16:47:59 GMT from Canada)
The for freedoms are these:
* The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
* The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
* The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
* The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
Note that freedom 2 does not explicitly state that source code needs be provided. So let's stop the silly suggestion that someone passing along a CD is a distributor and needs to provide the source code.
71 • Zenwalk and GPL source (by Claus Futtrup on 2008-02-12 16:54:03 GMT from Denmark)
#23 - Béranger - your prayers have been heard.
Above URL shows that the process has started (a while ago). JRD is on it.
72 • re: 69, Sources (by DG on 2008-02-12 19:31:31 GMT from Netherlands)
Lunar Linux is source based. It's package repository, called the moonbase, just contains details of where to download the sources from, and how to build and install them. The source tarballs are saved under /var/spool/lunar so you can always unpack them yourself and examine them if you want. This is useful if something won't build for you, or you find that there's a new version of the package and you need to check that the same options apply. It also means that users can create/customise packages in their own area of their local moonbase, and once it's working, can submit the changes to the central developers, who may or may not accept them.
One caveat: Lunar is not intended for newbies, so you really need to know what you are doing, or be prepared to do a lot of searching on the web.
73 • Zenwalk and keymaps (by Raphael Frey on 2008-02-12 20:08:11 GMT from Switzerland)
I've just installed Zenwalk 5.0 and I am very disappointed: Zenwalk 5.0 is the first linux distribution I ever tried which has a incorrect Swiss German keymap or another keymap problem: All shortcuts beginning with the key "Alt Gr" don't work. It seems like they are already reserved cos when I type "Alt Gr" and a number in Iceweasel (Firefox), the tabs switch. Does someone know how to disable this reserved key? With this bug it is nearly impossible to write an email or to log in somewhere with my email address because for the at sign you normally have to type "Alt Gr" and "2" and this "only" switches the tab (instead of inserting an at sign).
It is a pity about this keymap bug because otherwise Zenwalk works very well and I like it :-/
74 • Some progress on the Power Management front in (by openSUSE Alpaha2 on 2008-02-13 04:28:25 GMT from Australia)
Just tested the openSUSE 11 Gnome Live CD - Alpha2 and discovered that their Power Manager 2.21.1 package allows for permanent power policy selection options; based on processor load, maximum power saving, always maximum speed. I don't know whether this is a Gnome feature or an openSUSE patch but it is the first time I have seen it implemented. OpenSUSE 10.3 come out without the excellent Yast PM applet that was in version 10.2 and can now be upgraded with the GPM 2.20.0-29.6 package from the Gnome Stable repo (for 10.3).
Another less sophisticated way for power management in GNOME is to use the CPU Frequency Scaling Monitor Applet. This applet is enabled for user selection in some distros (Fedora 7/8 and Mandriva 2008, etc) but not in others (Ubuntu, Debian, Mint, openSUSE, etc) and can be easily enabled by the following command:
sudo chmod +s /usr/bin/cpufreq-selector
or (if you are in root console mode)
chmod +s /usr/bin/cpufreq-selector
The same code with '-s' puts it back to how it was.
The combination of GMP and CPU FSM applet in openSUSE 10.3, if one updates the GMP package, and the coming 11.0 version provides the best Gnome PM options available, IMHO.
75 • Slax 6 Now Available (by decula on 2008-02-13 06:57:24 GMT from United States)
Tomas placed the long awaited Slax 6.0 release online today.
new modules etc forthcoming
76 • Parted Magic 2.0 (by champted on 2008-02-13 11:50:57 GMT from United States)
I've been unable to connect to partedmagic.com for about 24 hours. I was in the middle of downloading the ISO, the transfer died, and I haven't been able to connect since. Tried to find out status on their forum, but the forum has moved to partedmagic.com (from where it is linked to in its entry in DW) and is therefore also not accessible. Anybody know what's going on and/or when it will be remedied?
77 • re 76 (by Anonymous on 2008-02-13 13:09:30 GMT from France)
I don't know. Last night, I couldn't access their website at all.
78 • Number of Distros (by Glenn on 2008-02-13 14:48:29 GMT from United States)
With the number of distros increasing at an exponential rate, Mr Bodnar and his Distrowatch will soon be overwhelmed and forced to retreat and/or regroup in order to remain effective. Already the number of distros on the waiting list is almost as high as the number of active distros, and there's no end in sight. I've been following Distrowatch for many years (since Suse 6.4), and I even ended up making it my browser's home page; but after distro-hopping for several years, I've pretty much decided to stay up to date on only 3 or 4 distros - Suse, DSL, Kubuntu and maybe Zenwalk. So I'll make one of them my home page and simply bookmark the others in order to keep informed. I admire Ladislav for his tenacity and fortitude. How he finds time to maintain Distrowatch, hold a job, and preserve a family, I'll never know.
79 • Parted Magic 2.0 (by Raphael Frey on 2008-02-13 15:26:59 GMT from Switzerland)
Hey, can somebody tell me why you can't resize ext2 and ext3 partitions with VisParted (the Gparted of Parted Magic)?! I downloaded the iso file yesterday and as you have remarked partedmagic.com isn't available today (overcharged?), so I can't consult the forum.
80 • Zenwalk and keymaps (by Claus Futtrup on 2008-02-13 17:02:36 GMT from Denmark)
#73 - Raphael Frey
Your Swiss-German keymap is probably currently not supported because this special combination requires a special "hack" or treatment in the config files and previous Swiss users have not asked for this feature (or have been unable to explain the situation to a point where a solution could be determined).
Our users in Greece (and other nations) have also had the need for hacks and it has been resolved.
Your best chance is to join the Zenwalk Forum. Explain your situation and ask if someone can suggest a solution. (To begin with you could also search the forum for keymap hacks in other languages and see if they apply to your situation)
P.S. My Alt-GR key works fine, and I can type the important @ sign easily. It sounds like a special situation for your Swiss-German combo.
81 • Qu 80 Are keymap issues to be hacked on a case by case basis? (by dbrion on 2008-02-13 18:00:26 GMT from France)
There are many "special" issues (MCN had a Belgian French keyboard, Paldo had a Swiss French keyboard, and I am sure I plenty of nightmarish keymap combinations). If you tell "go to the fora, your keymqp is very speciql and we"ll see how to hack it" it may take years of frustration... If you decide to have many keymqps supported , or to claim "we only support this, this ... keyboard", potentiql users mqy be hqppier...
82 • Cor 81 : "Omit" was omitted... (by Anonymous on 2008-02-13 18:36:07 GMT from France)
s@am sure I plenty of nightmarish !am sure @ *omitted* plenty of nightmarish @
83 • Keymaps (by Mark South on 2008-02-13 18:53:34 GMT from Switzerland)
@Claus Futtrup, #80:
"Your Swiss-German keymap is probably currently not supported because this special combination requires a special "hack" or treatment in the config files and previous Swiss users have not asked for this feature (or have been unable to explain the situation to a point where a solution could be determined)."
Saying that it requires a hack sounds a little condescending and makes it sound as if it's Raphael's fault for being awkward, especially when you say, in effect: "...but I'm OK". Perhaps you didn't intend it to sound like that, but that's how it came out.
The Swiss keymaps are ancient and standard across many distros. If the ch-de keymap has stopped working, it's probably because someone has changed the default keymap setting to "nodeadkeys" for that keymap. But a non-functional keymap is definitely a bug.
@Raphael: sometimes when AltGr-2 doesn't produce the "@" sign, you can still get it with AltGr-Q, does that work for you?
84 • Zenwalk and keymaps (by Claus Futtrup on 2008-02-13 19:21:26 GMT from Denmark)
Someone chose to take my invitation and move this discussion to an appropriate place. Here it is:
85 • Disk Partiioning for Newbies (by Horza Gorbuchal on 2008-02-14 02:53:04 GMT from Australia)
In respect to some of the comments above.
People always seem to think disk partitioning in Linux is hard for "newbies".
Surely it is as equally hard for Newbies if not more so in Windows imho.
a) That Windows seems to have to be the first OS on a disk unless some nasty hacking is done. Try installing Windows after installing a different OS first.
b) The horrible horrible mess that is drive letters etc etc of Windows as opposed to easily configurable multiple partitions and mount points in Linux.
c) No graphical disk partition managers in a Windows XP install that I recall. A nasty blue and white text screen.
In my view any disk partitioning is a business that needs care and thought if data already exists, regardless of OS and experience.
86 • re 76, 77, 79 Parted Magic 2.0 (by champted on 2008-02-14 04:57:58 GMT from United States)
Mystery solved. I found this in a readme.txt file in the downloads area of partedmagic.com after it finally came back on-line:
=== quote ===
I can no longer host Parted Magic downloads here because of band width issues.
My webspace provider threatened to take the site down if I didn't remove the files.
If you can help me out by hosting these files please e-mail me at:
=== end quote ===
I guess it must have been really popular. I hope someone else can host the downloads, 'cause it looks like it could be a Good Thing, and I would like to get a copy.
87 • Re: 84 (by Raphael Frey (Debianux) on 2008-02-14 07:52:43 GMT from Switzerland)
It was myself who moved this discussion to the Zenwalk forum. (My alias is "Debianux").
88 • wireless (by Guy on 2008-02-14 15:35:44 GMT from United States)
if a wireless driver is written into the kernel does that mean it will just work? realtek says their drivers are in the kernel.
89 • 88 (by Anonymous on 2008-02-14 16:28:20 GMT from United States)
Depends on which version of the kernel. In some cases it is added and then dropped from being supported in the kernel. Just knowing that it is in the kernel is not enough, you have to ask with version(s).
90 • re: 62 & 40 (by Todd on 2008-02-14 18:52:36 GMT from United States)
I love Linux and what it stands for. Let me say that first. I, too am ready to try Arch. I've been into Linux since 2003 and the one thing that puts me off is the "every six months re-install syndrome". Do you think for a second I would want to re-install XP every six months after I have everything configured the way I want it? It's one reason I've used PCLinuxOS for the last few years. The 2007 edition looks like it will be updateable for quite a while but I still long to get into Arch. This "every 6 months" thing is OK for tinkering purposes and to stay involved and informed, but for actual productivity, I don't have the time for constant re-installs. Someone will say, though, you don't have to re-install....just use a distro for as long as you can. I counter that by saying Linux is a moving target and I want the latest improvements/bug fixes for the Linux apps I use. Gone are the carefree days of no children and no wife. Comments anyone?
91 • wireless (by Guy on 2008-02-14 19:17:49 GMT from United States)
the reason i'm curious about wireless issues is that i'm thinking of buying a laptop for the first time. i have used ndiswrapper on my daughters laptop and it works good. she has a dell with broadcom. if i have to use ndiswrapper should i keep a windows partition? i would rather just use linux and not waste the disk space?
92 • RE:90 (by john frey on 2008-02-14 19:28:30 GMT from Canada)
Arch is a good choice but methinks what you really need is Debian. When a new version comes out every few years there no reinstall, just change your sources.list and "apt-get update", "apt-get dist-upgrade". Or just have the stable sources and do your dist-upgrade when they change.
Then there's Sidux if you want more bleeding edge and I think Kanotix is still around too. Doubtless there are many other choices but these are the ones that I can suggest.
93 • 90 (by Anonymous on 2008-02-14 19:51:55 GMT from France)
Go for it! You may well find yourself at home, quickly and for a long time.
If not, you can always move to debian sid or the equivalents in the other big name distros.
94 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-02-14 20:27:41 GMT from United States)
@91: You should not need the Windows partition. The only thing that would help with is if the driver is only available on the Windows partition. You can copy the driver and use it with ndiswrapper, then delete the other "stuff" in the Windows partition.
@90: If you want stability, go with Debian stable. It sounds like the latest and greatest is important, so you will probably want Arch. Debian Stable gets old quickly, and testing/unstable/backports is not a perfect substitute for having a constantly updated distro. The nice thing is that if you get a major breakage in Arch, so did everyone else, and you will get a fix in a hurry.
Of course Debian is a good choice if you can put up with some long delays in getting new packages.
95 • re: 90 - reinstall every six months (by ray carter at 2008-02-14 22:57:24 GMT from United States)
I have two solutions for you. I have several Ubuntu boxes I've simply upgraded from time to time - no reinstall. Debian is great that way. I also have Gentoo on my mini-itx - I simply update stuff every week or so and it just keeps rolling.
96 • number of new distros (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 03:06:31 GMT from France)
@78: The number of distros is increasing:
I'm setting up a bord about new distros. The site runs already: http://www.distros.yi.org ; today I tested several board programs - the final selection will be among phpBB2, eblah, smf, myBB, and I begun today with catalogizing the existing distros. I suppose in 2-3 days it begins to work and I notify all distro maintainer to colaborate.
I permit the distro maintainers to fill out the formular for them distro when they want, but I have colaborators for this too. The board will be propaganda- and click-counter-free as it's correct according the open-source / free filosophy.
Commercial parasites which try to draw money from open-source projects and still hindering the development of Linux, have nothing to search in our area. It's a big abuse that there are forums with waiting lists of some hundreth distros, and distros which nor enter in them. It's just a part of the open source idea that everybody realize his basical ideas, and there often comes new concepts. Whom reclaims about this, or isn't able to keep this speed, don't need to participate. For the natural development of open-source projects, is necessary a quick knowledge, testing, avaliation, improvement of new programs, distros, concepts - not waiting for a half year something will be published. I contacted already several maintainers of conventional distros and of new distros which want not dye on a waiting list but publicity of them project, and all them agreed with me. Here is something more rigorously necessary, as the old things (which perhaps may still be reliques of the communism) don't longer work
97 • GPL and source code (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 03:54:04 GMT from France)
@43,45,64,58,69,70: The discusion becomes a little confuse because there were removed posts by me which to these answers are referred. A better place for start such discusions are, perhaps, objective forums.
The problem is simply that the GPL forces the distributers to deliver something what the CONSUMERS (not only the distributers) not want, i.e. source code, in connection with what they want, i.e. binaries. No matter if paied or not paied, but worser even when paied as it happens f.ex.on CDs included in computer jornals. For this it's irrelevant if this is so by any comercial (W$ media player) or altruistic (GPL) reason. Many consumers laws simply forbid such a connection, and without the option to can diminuish this prohibition by contract/agreement.
98 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-02-15 04:07:27 GMT from United States)
> Many consumers laws simply forbid such a connection
Huh? What connection are you talking about? If you distribute GPLed code, you have to make the source available in some form. This has no relation to any consumer laws. "If you download these binaries, you also have the option to download the source." Besides...if it's not commercial, consumer laws would never apply.
99 • GPL / source code (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 09:40:46 GMT from France)
I'm speaking about the connection between binary codes and the obligation by the GPL to deliver together with them also source code, without that the consummer have the possibility to opt if he want them really. And the most consummer laws what forbid them, correctly make no difference if this is gratis or paied, by several reasons, f.ex. because anyway it's against the freedom of choice, and because often free offers have hidden any contra-obligation.
100 • Qu 97 What entitles you to speak (by dbrion on 2008-02-15 10:07:53 GMT from France)
in the consumers (sorry for the case ) place?
"the GPL forces the distributers to deliver something what the CONSUMERS (not only the distributers) not want"
Are students, curious people wanting to know what is inside their favorite application/ what is specific to their distr zombies?
Is there a court result w/r to the illegality of giving people some information about the contents of software ?
FYI, industrialists are ready to pay to have a look at Microsoft's codes (sorry, very sorry for no politically correct miss peeling) and to compare with free codes... before choosing. Do you believe that free codes are in such a piteous state that they should be hidden?
101 • GPL, consumers laws (by werner on 2008-02-15 10:10:35 GMT from France)
Worser even for the GPL. More and more countrie's consumers laws follows the so-called theory of objective soliedary co-responsibility of the producers. That means, that in front of the consummers, there is a co-responsibility of any participant of the producing process for the factual errorfreeness of the whole service or product. If for example a new car has a problem with the breaks, the consummer can responsiblize and process for the whole damage any or all of the firmas (shop, car fabrik, breaks fabrik or whatever) what participate on the production; against the consummer is irrelevant exculpation of any of them (such like, firma A says that was the fault of firma B and vice versa) but it's a problem among them afterwards regress them among them. For this it's irrelevant if the product is delivered gratis or not, because also gratis products can produce damages, and because when there occurs a damage, any co-producer quickly could claim his contribution was gratis (or the car was still not yet paied) for come free of the responsibility.
An example for the rigorous application of this is the brazilean consumer law no. 8980 and his objective (fault-independent) responsibility of any even the smallest contributor on the production process.
This (correct) legal theory and its law application makes not only absurde that the consummer would be responsible for any production error and would have to pay to the producers for it (such as M$ wants in them absurde idea that the consumer would have to pay them for any patent error/trouble). It also co-response the FSF for any damage produced by software, because with its GPL the FSF intervent into the production process. When there occurs an heavy damage by software, it's quite possible that the FSF will be co-responsablized, have to co-indemnize the consumers, and it's after the FSF's problem to regress other producers which were 'more' responsable for the damage.
An example could be a process against the FSF by a (state or privat) consumer's protection organization, for millionary damages, because a jornal distribute a Linux distro not only with 1 CD but with 2 CD's , incl. the source code, instead of only the binaries, because the FSF / GPL forced the jornal to do so, although the consummer typically want only the binaries but not the sources, producing thus a big collective damage and a violation of the publical order of freedeom of choice by the consumer
102 • @ RE 98 To the expert of consumers laws (by dbrion on 2008-02-15 10:17:59 GMT from France)
Tins manufacturers are obliged to inform the consumer obout what is inside their tins (and are sometimes successfully sued, when the contents of what they sell is spelled in too tiny fonts!)... And the GPL (one can choose not to have GPLed software, it is not as crucial as eating) asks to have sources made avalaible. It is too esay to take GPL (does not cost anything) , claim "oh, I am the best : my distro can be installed without anyone understanding what it does, my distr comparisons are unbiased, etc, etc..." and despise the obligations which are linked with it....
103 • No subject (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 10:18:47 GMT from France)
@100: The wrong here is the violation of our freedom of choice. No matter if by econimical interest (M$ Media Player connected with W$ which resulted in the heavy penalty by the European Comission), or if by [claimed] 'principal' reasons (GPL) -- anyway we would have to accept or not-accept what other people want. The FSF 'frees' us from one 'bad', but brings another one, dependence from them own ideas ...
I, as consummer, normally don't want the sources, but only the binaries, inclusive I want that the producers are not forced to deliver me the sources together with the binaries.
When it's a 1 CD distro, this perhaps is no problem / no additional effort. But when it's a 2 CD distro, it's already a difference, inclusive in the price what I have to pay for the jornal (directly or indirectly) where the 2 CD's inside.
104 • RE 103 (by dbrion on 2008-02-15 10:27:20 GMT from France)
"the violation of our freedom of choice. "
One can choose *not* to study the code, or to study it: it is exacltly what freedom means.
"But when it's a 2 CD distro, it's already a difference, inclusive in the price what I have to pay for the jornal (directly or indirectly) where the 2 CD's inside"
I know that RMI and CAF do not give that much money...
I know, too, that giving a link to the source (where one can download it) is considered as sufficient....
I am very intrigued by the fact that you "omit" to quote *any* court result in favor of your lengthy, well argumented claims. (the FSF often wins tcourt trials, nowadays)
105 • GPL/source code (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 10:28:18 GMT from France)
@102: A specification of the contens is one thing; an addition to the delivered produce what increases its volume by appr. 100% (source additionally to the binaries) is another ...
106 • No subject (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 10:30:51 GMT from France)
@104 No that nasty frenchs pay only 397 Euro RMI. Because of this, my SYS distro also has not included french language but only portugues and german
107 • Re 106 Obrigado (by dbrion on 2008-02-15 10:43:21 GMT from France)
RMI is a "reliques of the communism" 'from +your+ post 96. Perhaps it not enough for *you*.
Re 105 : If one has a CD with the source, or an IT link, one is free *not* to study it, as one is free not to read the contents of a peaches tin.
If the sources are hidden, I suppose there are nasty things (even bugs!!! waiting to be corrected !!! the Free World is so strange) which are hidden, too...
108 • GPL / co-responsibility of the conjoint of producers (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 10:43:31 GMT from France)
@103, last part: To the solidary co-responsibility of the conjoint of producers for the facts/caracteristics and objective correctness of the whole product or service, ex. arts. 3, 13-14, 18-19 of the brazilean consumer's law: Producer is everybody whom participate, integrally or by integrated parts/service, on the production process, gratis or billed. Any producer, in front of the consumer, is responsible for the whole product and service; this responsibility is objective (depending only on the fact of not-fullfilled characteristics or damages). Legitimated for claim/process is any consumer, anybody on his behalf, consumer's associations etc. There have plenty processes and in almost all of them the producers try among them A give the responsibility to B etc. but in vain just because of that laws, which are correct because the relationship among the producers and the regress between them is problem among them. In Portugal and Spain the new legislation is similar, and the EU in them consummer's laws politics choiced the principle of objective (fault-independent), soliedary responsibility of the producers too, for its future consummer's legislation
109 • correction (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 10:51:42 GMT from France)
correction: ... the distribution/limitation of responsibility among the producers A, B ... is a problem and is known only among them, not by the consumer.
Alias, in fact alto the GPL gives obligations to the producers, not so much to the consumer, the consumer nor need to know the GPL but the producer would have the obligation to deliver sources too. Thus it's correct, for any process, to treat the FSF as participante of the production process of a defectuous product (the factual defect is here the redundance of source-code, normally not desired by the consumer, or at least violated his free choice)
110 • consummer's rights, GPL (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 11:08:27 GMT from France)
@103 last part: here a reference to one brazilean consumer law, as a good example, cf its articles 2.1 , 3 , 12-19, 25, 28, 39I (forbidding the connection of services), 39XIII (incl. gratis services), 91 : http://www.planalto.gov.br/ccivil_03/Leis/L8078.htm
111 • Mepis 7 (by Geoff on 2008-02-15 11:42:02 GMT from United States)
Is it ok to come here just to post a positive update on my distribution of choice? :)
Some here may recall my struggles a while back with finding a Linux that would work well on my new Acer notebook; I went through about ten releases, including the one that works so good on my old pc, PCLinuxOS.
Mepis 7 solved it all for me and this notebook machine. Many very good aspects of the distro keep me impressed with it: the wifi link comes up automagically as soon as the gui is booted up, the screen resolution is perfect on this 1280x800 "wide screen," the "apt-get update then apt-get upgrade" function installs or modifies software without a hitch, etc..
Many many good things and I am staying with Mepis (unless it becomes borked by some errant developer, or worse, unless Mepis does what Xandros did!).
I am a regular money contributor to several distributions now, Mepis included. Support Linux!
And most importantly, if you're having trouble getting a distro to work right, when it gets to be too much, just try another Linux distribution as I did; you will find the right one.. there are so many!
112 • Werner (by john frey on 2008-02-15 14:46:14 GMT from Canada)
You are so off the mark. Why don't you read the GPL before commenting? The GPL is copyright so you might want to read about what is allowed in copyright in various countries in addition to consumer protection law.
The GPL does not force source code on anyone. It provides that those who choose can access is so it does not double the size of a 2 cd distribution (for example).
The contract that the copyright holders enter into with the distributors is the right to freely (at no cost to the distributor) distribute their copyrighted work in exchange that the distributor provide the source code to those who request it.
You seem to think that is an onerous responsibility. Some people require you pay money to distribute their work. Perhaps that is an onerous responsibility and you should start a campaign to eliminate the money obligation on those who distribute copyrighted works.
The user has no such obligations. They may use the software however they wish. Weave it into a rug, line the bottom of the bird cage, use it to power a perpetual motion machine, run their computer, whatever. They may pass it (without providing the source code or even knowing what that is) to their friends, family and neighbours for them to do with as they like . Play frisbee, build a coaster collection, make mobiles, run their computer, pass it on, whatever.
Yes, free software sometimes requires some responsibility from those who use. That is the cost of freedom (in this case).
113 • No subject (by werner , in Cayenne on 2008-02-15 15:16:40 GMT from France)
All this is irrelevant because the problem is that, according the GLP, the distributers have to add and the consumers have to accept it in that manner or not get GPL'ed binaries at all. Nobody needs to accept what others thinking what's better for him, like this was the argumention in the communism. You want a red car, but there are produced only green ones, because there's an association what tell to the producers that according to examinations green cars have less accidentes then red ones
114 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-02-15 15:39:18 GMT from United States)
> the distributers have to add and the consumers have to accept it in that manner or not get GPL'ed binaries at all
You must be working with a different GPL. The one I work with only requires that the source be available, not included.
115 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-02-15 15:43:01 GMT from France)
You say: "the problem is that, according the GLP, the distributers have to add and the consumers have to accept it in that manner or not get GPL'ed binaries at all."
The GPL says (http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.txt):
"Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you
have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for them if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it,"
From what I understand, you and the GPL are not saying the same thing. For the GPL, the distributors do NOT have to add the sources, they have to make it available, the consumers CAN get the source code if they want to, they do NOT have to.
Regarding responsiblity. Maybe the law is different in Brazil, but I think that in Europe/North America, "engineer" is a special status. A bridge engineer is liable if the bridge breaks down. But, a coder is not liable if his software causes harm. He just has to write "we are not responsible for our bugs"!
116 • wireless (by Guy on 2008-02-15 15:48:02 GMT from United States)
@111 Thanks Geoff. I'll try Mepis when I get my new laptop. I too am a PCLinuxOS user and I love it. But if I can't get wireless to work with PCLOS it's Mepis or Mandriva I'll try.
117 • No subject (by fin on 2008-02-15 16:02:56 GMT from Finland)
werner, please read and understand:
118 • RE 112 Thanks you, John Frey (by dbrion on 2008-02-15 16:30:54 GMT from France)
I notice that you make a huge work of clarifying things (and it is even funny). Have a very nice weekend/ bissextile month/year.
119 • Mepis vs PCLinuxOS on notebook (by Geoff on 2008-02-15 17:50:33 GMT from United States)
Hello, Guy -
I hope you are successful with PCLinuxOS if that is the distro you like a lot: I had the exact same notions when I acquired my Acer thinking that my good old PCLinuxOS cd would be all I needed to get Linux on it.. but I began to have issues, even display problems that the forums could not help me with.
I expressed a lot of anxiety in here about Linux in general, and then somebody suggested that Mepis 7 was the one to get onto a notebook ("laptop") machine, and by golly they were right, in my case.
Nothing to do except run the install cd, and then invoke the "915resolution" software and everything looks just right.
Good luck, and please post back..
120 • Karoshi Linux (by Anonymous on 2008-02-15 21:47:01 GMT from United States)
Just clicked on the banner ad for this distro. It's based on PCLinuxOS and is supposed to be for education. However, when you click on any of the features for more details, it says "Please be patience...". If they were really educators, you would think they would know that it's, "Please be *patient*...". Teacher, educate thyself! ;-)
121 • @113 (by john frey on 2008-02-16 00:22:51 GMT from Canada)
"All this is irrelevant because the problem is that, according the GLP, the distributers have to add and the consumers have to accept it in that manner or not get GPL'ed binaries at all."
You may be right Werner. I have no idea what the GLP provides:)
The GPL however does not require the sources to be included, just that they be made available to those who want it. I don't know where you got the idea that everyone must give and receive a copy of the source code. That is FUD of the worst sort. You have been trying to argue this and people have been trying to point out your mistake over and over. I know that sort of FUD is out there. You must be more discriminating about where you get your information.
Read posts #114 and #115. It can't be stated more clearly and simple than that.
The other bit of FUD you may like to stay away from is that the GPL is like communism. The GPL is not a system of governance, it is a copyright/copyleft license. The 2 have nothing in common. Bill Gates and dancing monkey boy are not reliable sources about Linux *gasp* Hard to believe, I know, but it's true.
@118 Hey, thanks:)))
122 • Re Post 54 - Newbies (by DistroWatcher on 2008-02-16 00:51:39 GMT from United States)
You are exactly right. We were all "newbies" at one point in time. Don't ever let anyone ever try and tell you any different. And never be afraid to ask questions. Most Linux users are more than happy to be of some help.
(remember most users).
What is great about Linux is that there are varying degrees about everything: Installation, Configuring, Administrating etc.
I struggled with Slackware configuration ten years ago, Gentoo installation five years ago. But, now my goals are different. I want an intuitive distro.
I'm past the point of putting a notch in my alternative OS belt.
I have installed Linux Mint (3.1 -4.0 ) on friends and family's PCs. Mint is by far the most intuitive Linux I've come across.
Of the dozen or so MS systems I've installed Mint on, I've only received one call about the system - and that was a forgotten password.
Most people just want to use a computer - they don't care about the how's and why's.
Mint, if they keep their current path is destined to become the #1 distro in 2008, and rightfully so.
123 • Buddhist Shrine Linux Operating System (by Lobster on 2008-02-16 07:36:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
A new Beta "Buddhist Shrine with built in Linux operating system"
Making use of YAP software which should run on Puppy Linux and Puplets from 2.10 onward
OM YA HA HUM
124 • No subject (by RE on 2008-02-16 15:40:23 GMT from France)
"Most people just want to use a computer - they don't care about the how's and why's."
How did you count them? A referendum? Experience from your clients (those who are not skilled enough, or have no time, to install by themselves)?
Installation procedures have got very easy, today and each of them is somewhat user (rightly or wrongly) friendly.
The user (treacherous) friendliness in installation is likely top become less and less relevant, totally irrelevant if one choses to have a Linux pre-installed (some day/year/century, it will happen in Europe). I had some trouble with results of a INTUITIVE (oh, the nice, nice slogan: it m) application (i did not advise its use : I just waited to see the results) :
80% of the results (numbers) were right,
....20% were obviously wrong: this was verified .... with un ugly, ugly, oh god, how nastily ugly equivalent software... and it took months to repair its consequences...
As for not caring about hows and whys, anybody typing a text knows
* how* he types it
* why* he types it
(else, one could have cats walking randomly on a keyboard....)
125 • Yes, we're all different (by KimTjik on 2008-02-16 15:41:00 GMT from Sweden)
I find it interesting that you define your criteria as "intuitive". As I understand the word and hence the idea it's all about whether someone's preferences are met by a certain distribution. That's also why there's no fixed formula for what a so called "newbie" wants, because it also depends on whether we're talking about a "Linux newbie" or generally "computing newbie".
I read through the chain of comments leading up to yours and I might agree that there's a huge difference in how users are treated. Fortunately the only bad experience I've had is forum inactivity. On the other hand with hindsight I now see why not all distributions should aim at attracting newbies; some are specialized to meet the wishes of a certain category of users, a freedom that must be respected. The tricky part, and I agree that some failures happen, is how to tell a user that he/she is trying to do something which might be over their heads, which might lead to more than necessary frustration. Unfortunately some folks have a nerdy version of gang attitudes in their dealing with newcomers; a social phenomena that software won't change.
Intuitively or not but I think I've finally settled for a distribution that behaves like I prefer it to, and its community is amazingly active and respectful. May it be that some technicalities are beyond my understanding today, but I'm sure this path will be the most interesting and rewarding for me. Whatever my decision is, I'm sure that most interested in Linux will find something that's more or less what they search for.
126 • Co 124 (by dbrion on 2008-02-16 15:53:36 GMT from France)
124 subject was RE 122
BTW, can you explain why Mint's code is better than Debian (UBU linux being in this case a -with some algebraic sign- added value gobetween: that make many, many gobetweens, cloners : ....)
I know it is the Rats year, but mouse clicks are not an indicator of any value...
127 • Addition to post 125 (by KimTjik on 2008-02-16 19:28:05 GMT from Sweden)
It was written with post number 122 in mind.
128 • In support of KimTjik's remarks :) (by Geoff on 2008-02-16 21:13:02 GMT from United States)
Take a cue from an old Ingmar Johansson fan, keep your staying power here.
129 • Practical experience with ntfs-3g (by Any road bumps? on 2008-02-17 01:38:35 GMT from Australia)
I tried my first large ntfs-3g write (backed up my complete home folder, about 230 MB) and the result was mixed. All files were copied and speed was good but I had issues later when using Windows (XP). Saved html files with various symbols in saved name/title (e.g ":", "|", etc) that work OK in Linux were being rejected by Windows programs, including various open source archivers and NeroExpress. But the most serious issue I found was that the drive partition was TOTALLY FRAGMENTED, i.e ntfs-3g spread system files across the whole partition and not, as is the practice in windows, towards the front. The WinXP defrag utility would not move these "system" files and I ended up reformatting the partition.
I have now made a separate 5gb ntfs partition that I will use to test ntfs-3g abilities and usefulness and that can be easily reformatted as the need arises.
130 • RE: 129 • Practical experience with ntfs-3g (by IMQ on 2008-02-17 03:00:23 GMT from United States)
I wonder if the defragment problem would improved if you were to defrag the partition containing the files prior to copying to the backup partition.
Intfs-3g is good enough, IMHO, for experimental execises.
131 • Re 120 Karushi (by dbrion on 2008-02-18 08:20:17 GMT from France)
is supposed to be for education. However, when you click on any of the features for more details, it says "Please be patience...". If they were really educators, you would think they would know that it's, "Please be *patient*...". Teacher, educate thyself! ;-)
From their announce:
"Karoshi is a free and open source school server operating system based on PCLinuxOS. Karoshi provides a simple graphical interface that allows for quick installation, setup and maintenance of a network.
it is not meant to be directly given to pupils, who might be more critical than you, but to ahve an internal network working.... aand teachers are sometimes very computer illiterate (it is not their job at all and it might be a blessing to have a network in a good state).
I noticed the same thing with edUBU, a year ago: Arabic was written the yaw gnorw at the very beginning (language selection: after, it was better/less bad: either Arabic or English), and, as there were nice games, one could be tempted to give it to young pupils (who may be bilingual and know at least the two alphabets... often the teacher does not know...).
Number of Comments: 131
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