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1 • mepis (by petitbob on 2007-12-03 10:20:41 GMT from France)
bonjour,
je suis un peu étonné par les résultats de la revue générale des disptributions les plus populaires écrite par Baris Paraskeva.
Etonné par la note de SimplyMEPIS 6.5 ! Comparer Ubuntu 7.10 à SimplyMEPIS 6.5 qui est basé sur Ubuntu 6.06 peut expliquer ce résultat.
mais le gestionnaire de paquets est le même : synaptic ! il existe de nombreuses interfaces graphiques pour configurer son système sur MEPIS.
MEPIS est aussi facile à installer qu'Ubuntu (voire plus rapide !).
je pense qu'il aurait fallu comparer Ubuntu 7.10 à la nouvelle MEPIS 7.0 RC1 : le match aurait été plus serré alors !
Un MEPIS Lover !
@+ petitbob
2 • Net set of reviews! (by awong on 2007-12-03 10:20:55 GMT from Canada)
I like the review system and will be reading it over again... Nice to see Mint up there with a high review!
Cheers!
3 • Debian ? (by Logu on 2007-12-03 10:21:56 GMT from Germany)
What is an overview of the most popular distros worth without Debian?
This is the mother of all distros.
4 • Distro selection (by Sly on 2007-12-03 10:22:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
In detail, I disagree with some of Baris' assessments - hardly surprising as there is considerable subjectivity in these things. However, I feel that he has missed an important trick, to the extent that his reviews could be misleading. Many of the new generation compact, liveCD distros are now so good that they provide functionality, usability, etc. as installed OSes, often with substantial speed improvements. Amongst these, Puppy and it's many variants, NimbleX - ditto, and Wolvix are well worth visiting.
5 • Re: 2 oops... (by awong on 2007-12-03 10:24:59 GMT from Canada)
Meant to say "Nice set..." oh well, it's on the 'net' now... Also, congrats to Mepis fir receiving the donation this month - well deserved.
6 • Mandriva? (by Fernand Pajot on 2007-12-03 10:46:16 GMT from France)
It's strange to include PCLinuxOS but not Mandriva in this summary. Great job anyway.
7 • Review of Sabayon (by Ed Holness on 2007-12-03 10:48:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think this reviewer has been rather hard on Sabayon here. He says the installation took hours but he is comparing a 4Gb+ DVD with CD sized distros, of course it'll take longer! He also complains that the Gnome desktop is installed along with KDE, perhaps he'd not worked out that you can untick a box during the installation procedure to stop doing that.
The ease of use and package management assessments also completely overlook the power that you have through the command line tools that are available.
Clearly not enough research was put into getting to know the distro before writing that 'review'.
8 • I miss Mandriva in the test (by JORGE on 2007-12-03 10:50:04 GMT from Spain)
I miss Mandriva in the test
9 • Mepis 7 (by Mike on 2007-12-03 10:58:20 GMT from United States)
Although I am a die-hard Debian user, if you want a true Debian forked distro, I would highly recommend Mepis 7 when it goes gold.
10 • reviews (by kanishka on 2007-12-03 11:10:57 GMT from Italy)
I appreciated very much Baris' reviews, and I'm looking forward to read some others (i.e. Mandriva, Debian, Sidux, Elive, etc). Nice feature!
11 • Encore un test qui sert à rien ! (by jeje on 2007-12-03 11:13:13 GMT from France)
Ni Debian, ni Mandriva, ni une distribution basée sur Slackware (Slackware, Zenwalk...) A quoi servent des comparaisons soi-disant "objectives" sur un choix aussi subjectif !!!!
12 • Why not Slackware as desktop (by Alessandro on 2007-12-03 11:16:34 GMT from Italy)
I have passed last months to try and test all major distro: my results is very similar to your, but have included in my test also Slackware 12.
Yes I know installation is in Text Mode but is very fast and easy. Packet management in not so easy but repository are full of stuff.
But what make the different with other distro is the speed:in my opinion is the fastest distro I have tried, and for me this is very important for a desktop use, the reaction and the response time of the interface is impressive.
Thanks for your great work, and thanks to bring Distrowatch.com on our browsers!
Alessandro
13 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-12-03 11:16:40 GMT from Malaysia)
Decent scoring system. Keep it up!
14 • Re 1: mepis (by Lionel Debroux on 2007-12-03 11:17:40 GMT from France)
On parle anglais ici ;)
petitbob says he's a bit astonished by the results of the review of the most popular distros, written by Baris Paraskeva.
More precisely, he's astonished by the mark given to SimplyMEPIS 6.5 ! Comparing Ubuntu 7.10 to SimplyMEPIS 6.5, which is based on Ubuntu 6.06, may explain the mark.
The package manager is the same : synaptic ! On MEPIS, there are many graphical interfaces to configure the system.
MEPIS is as easy to install as Ubuntu (maybe faster !).
He thinks that the comparison should have been done between Ubuntu 7.10 and the newest MEPIS 7.0 RC1: the distros would have been closer !
(I guess Baris Paraskeva wanted to use only _releases_ of the distros, which explains that he used the aging Simply 6.5. There's little wrong with that, although it does indeed probably make MEPIS look worse than it actually is.)
15 • Re 11: another useless test ! (by Lionel Debroux on 2007-12-03 11:21:21 GMT from France)
On parle anglais ici ;)
He says:
Neither Debian, nor Mandriva, nor a Slackware-based distro (Slackware, Zenwalk...). What's the purpose of so-called "objective" comparisons on such a subjective choice [of distros] !!!!
16 • Fedora (by Duhnonymous on 2007-12-03 11:26:45 GMT from United States)
The only time Fedora is frustrating is when you try to use it with wireless networking. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same as Ubuntu or Mint, usability-wise.
The thing that makes Fedora better or worse is that they provide more updates than Ubuntu or Mint. This makes your system less stable but more up to date than with Ubuntu.
17 • Mint wireless support > Ubuntu? (by Dan MacDonald on 2007-12-03 11:29:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
We can already see the inevitable stream "Where's distro x" style postings that are a dead cert whenever a comparative review of distros like this gets posted. Personally, I would've been happier if the reviewer had made wireless support one of his review criteria- how east is it to get wireless and protection working under each distro? Internet is very important to most computer users (ESPECIALLY Linux users!) and one of the most tricky things to setup (if it isn't auto-configured ala Mandriva) is wireless networking.
I still haven't found time to check out Mint but is its wireless support any better than standard Ubuntu 7.10? I know it comes with a ndiswrapper installer but how does it work with native Linux wireless chipsets? I've got a zd1211 (Zydas) chipset USB wifi adapter and it seems to only work when it wants with Ubuntu and SUSE but it works flawlessly with Mandriva. I can pull it out, stick a USB drive or something in, then replace my wifi and know its going to work under Mandriva.
Mint + Mandriva's wifi tools would be something quite special!
18 • Who writes this stuff - no Debian, no Mandriva? (by itsthemedication on 2007-12-03 11:37:55 GMT from United States)
Come on - you call this a grand overview? Freespire is included, and then no Debian or Mandriva. Get real, or at least look at the Distrowatch top 10 before writing. It was a grand underview in my estimation...
19 • No subject (by Marius on 2007-12-03 11:41:42 GMT from Romania)
To many distro failed on your laptop......by a new one!
20 • Some are missing the point... (by Federico Kereki on 2007-12-03 11:45:47 GMT from Uruguay)
The author clearly says "My intention here is to provide a brief summary of the Linux distributions that I have installed on my own system recently" so why mope about his not installing Debian and Mandriva, or trying out a more recent SimplyMepis?
People, please read carefully! Il faut de lire tout!
21 • Grand Overview (by Dave on 2007-12-03 11:48:21 GMT from United States)
Love the Over View but wonder why you did not include Debian it's really a great Distro. I know that Ubuntu and mint and others are based upon it. But I find it quite easy to use and speedier that all the others on both my laptop and desktop.. and you couldn't really ask for more packages.. they may not be as new but they are stable. Just wondering.. As I suppose others are wondering about their favorite flavor also.
Keep up the good work , Distrowatch is a great asset to the community.
22 • Purpose? (by KimTjik on 2007-12-03 11:49:04 GMT from Sweden)
Baris probably did a honest attempt in reviewing different distributions, but the title seems a bit off target: it's not "a grand overview" when the article frankly explains that it's "a brief summary of the Linux distributions that I have installed on my own system recently". So it's nothing more than one persons own experience, which is fine in itself.
"The purpose of these reviews is to share my experiences of each distribution with other users to help make a decision about which is the best one to install."
Probably not "which is the best one to install", but in what distribution Baris view that a small selection of tasks were easy to complete. If you have the same demands as Baris, that's on target. I find it too pompous for one man/woman to tell what is best, like this is best overall and for all. I don't think that was Baris intention though, because in the end he does open up one or two different scenarios.
Another question such a review rises is: what features does DistroWatch give priority? Sometimes I get the impression that we make to much fuss about proprietary software. Does the inclusion of proprietary software make up for such a great part of the computer experience? It's like we're all decided to continue live within the boarders Microsoft set up by some questionable choices.
"General ease of use" require in this review that you're language of choice is English. We all know that PCLinuxOS, getting high scores in this department, aren't user friendly in case you don't master English well. I don't have any argument with PCLinuxOS, and I don't use Mandriva, but if the review should guide new users it's a vital piece of information. Linux is much stronger in for example Europe than in the US.
"Those who have significant experience with Linux tend to stick with the distribution they have been using for years, blissfully unaware that there are others out there that could save them a lot of configuration time."
Probably true to a degree. Nevertheless I don't see the point of making an argument about this. I would instead say that some of the so called user friendly distributions are awfully difficult to use when you run into trouble and need to track down the cause and correct it. Why then imply that a more "conservative" choice is because of being "blissfully unaware"? No such comments doesn't add anything useful to a review.
Anyway thanks for your work Baris. I'm overall critical, there's just some points I disagree with.
23 • oh I'm blind (by KimTjik on 2007-12-03 11:53:56 GMT from Sweden)
"I'm overall critical, there's just some points I disagree with."
should of course be:
"I'm NOT overall critical...."
24 • Fedora - Two graphical yum front ends not even mentioned (by Johnny Hughes on 2007-12-03 11:59:18 GMT from United States)
Both pup and yumex (each in the main distribution) for Fedora were not talked about for the review.
Each of these are similar to synaptic from a user friendliness standpoint ... and I don't think comparing the command line yum to graphical synaptic is a very fair comparison.
25 • @18 (by Warp0 on 2007-12-03 12:01:52 GMT from United States)
I also think Mandriva, Slack and Debian belong in any "grand overview", but in Baris's defense he did say: "My intention here is to provide a brief summary of the Linux distributions that I have installed on my own system recently". I liked his logical and well laid out review along with the timing startup and results from more than one computer. Nice job Baris.
26 • Fedora - Two graphical yum front ends not even mentioned (part 2) (by Johnny Hughes on 2007-12-03 12:04:48 GMT from United States)
I should have said pirut instead of pup (pup is the update GUI, pirut is the normal install gui).
27 • speed (by simon on 2007-12-03 12:05:46 GMT from New Zealand)
heh. those speed ratings are funny. what would a distro have to do to get a one on that scale, if ubuntu scores an eight? driving ubuntu feels like pushing a dumptruck uphill through cold porridge. you don't have to do the gentoo thing to get a much snappier desktop than ubuntu: slackware and its derivatives (vector, zen, etc.) are all faster...MUCH faster if you're figuring in boot time like this review does.
maybe a one on that scale is for some distro i haven't tried yet that boots off eight hundred floppies and requires you to shuffle through another four hundred or so every time you try to run something. the review was nice enough as an overview of some popular distros, but the numerical ratings were a bit dubious: i think it's better to go the way of the distrowatch summaries and talk about general impressions, rather than rate them against each other as though they were benchmarked or something.
some of that stuff can't really be quantified anyhow: "ease of use"? for who? and which scores higher, a distro that's easy to learn but then clumsy to use, or one that takes longer to learn but then gets work done much faster and more easily than the other one? the other day i watched some poor schmuck (running windows) mouse-clicking on file after file, opening them in a word processor and making the same edit, over and over again. lol. jeebus. yet the same dude would probably be scared witless of the bash prompt because it's too "hard". claiming a distro is "easy" if it's "like windows" is like saying it's easier to walk across a continent than to drive across because it's so dang hard to learn to drive.
28 • No subject (by she on 2007-12-03 12:06:13 GMT from Austria)
"It also installs quickly (around 40 minutes) "
40 minutes is quick?
Gobolinux installs in under 20 minutes
I didnt even time it but next time i will :)
just run "Installer" once booted, its a slick ncurses based
installed that looks a lot nicer than slackware's one, and
also has less options that need to be filled
29 • "slow web browsing" complaints (by Anonymous on 2007-12-03 12:13:03 GMT from Germany)
If you have a broken router than turn off IPV6 support, eg on openSUSE it's a setting within /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager: KDE_USE_IPV6="no"
I wouldn't rate PCLinuxOS having IPv6 not supported or disabled as bonus but as fault.
30 • Continue (by Eric on 2007-12-03 12:21:15 GMT from Canada)
Hey there, that was a very amazing review:) But like me, as my main distro wasn't included (sidux), would it be possible to continue the evaluation of other distros to another issue of DWW to add to others satisfaction?? I believe sidux would blow them all away with speed when in a modern KDE environment :P BUT its just a suggestion, add to the distros reviewed with installments:) PLEASE:D You've always taken my advise before (with the MINIX included or not in the tracked distros situation). So it would be great, and to even just review THEM ALL so that one person can honestly rate all in current state, hell I would gladly help review EVERY registered/used/requested distro even tho I found my home in sidux. But that would lol bring so much traffic in your newly replaced BSD to Debian server would have a fun time serving.
Well thank you for the GREAT DWW and awesome review critique and rating system, until next time. :)
31 • linutop too expensive (by Dopher on 2007-12-03 12:38:20 GMT from Belgium)
Allthough i like the linutop concept (I'm using a via epia mini-itx setup) I think the price is too high. EURO 280,00 for a small box containing only the motherboard, and some cables. ( a 4 GB stick costs more, so i understand mandriva's price raise to 349 euro)
The motherboard itself costs less then 130 euro . This means that the small case with 1 GB usb stick costs about 150 euro??. A case like that should not cost more then 25 euro (and even that is a lot, considering that it only contains the motherboard and some holes). And We all know how low the prices are for a 1 GB usb stick.
A setup like that should cost less then 200 euro. The asus eeeeepcee contains about the same board plus more (like a screen, keyboard flashdisk,etc) and is about the same price. So, i think that Asus is a better alternative.
32 • Freespire?! (by Robert on 2007-12-03 12:42:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have no idea what Freespire is doing there. Its a really bad distro, very slow even if the instalation process is easy, I wouldnt recommend this to anyone. As for Mint is nice, but I have no idea how the hell can I rebuild the kernel. I actually did it, but I had so may issue and so may problems I cant even belive it, and it wasnt because of the kernel it was because of this "restricted drivers" which I dont have a clue how to generate or do or anything similar. Does any one have an idea?!
Thx!
33 • distro review - pinch of salt required. (by callum on 2007-12-03 13:08:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
the distro review was fun but also highly subjective and not entirely accurate; I'm sorry but it felt like a high school homework project level of quality - not magazine level.
+ fedora out of the box will not have repository mixups - this used to happen 5 years ago but not now. The only time it happens is when folks manually add incompatible repositories (hinted at in the article). If you need proprietary stuff (dvd, mp3 etc) then add livna ONLY. All package managers will complain if you screw around with their sources.
+ yum is the equivalent of apt, yumex is the equiv of synaptic. comparing yum against synaptic is strange.
+ the timings are a little quaint - perhaps a proper testing tool should have been used?
+ subjective claims with no backup: "KDE is a little slow", "is a lot slower than most other distros", search for the number of times things are "a little slow". Speed terminlogy used like this shows a perception based on user expectations.
+ errors: I'm surprised that the printing subsystem in Ubuntu was not mentioned (e.g. CUPS, LPR etc) plus if ubuntu really has a problem then the author should have checked out printing in Kubuntu as a benchmark instead of saying "in KDE"
+ points: PCLinux got 8 for speed and Freespire & Opensuse got 7, however, in nearly all the metrics mentioned opensuse and freespire were faster!!!
34 • re: 31 (by Dopher on 2007-12-03 13:11:48 GMT from Belgium)
ow.. my mistake, the asus eepceee now contains the intel cel-m 900 ulv proc.
35 • distro review. (by Edoxus on 2007-12-03 13:18:13 GMT from Latvia)
I think that If one talks about openSUSE installation one should mention the possibility of 1 CD Install discs. If yo choose one of those (either KDE or Gnome) then you will have as fast install as Ubuntu plus the ability to cinfigre your packages. And there are Live CDs too. In short, it is unfair to complain about long installation in the case of openSUSE now.
Though, I am gald that finally speed of new SUSE is aknowledged. Yes, 10.2 was sluggish, but now 10.3 is among fastest distroes around.
P.S I did not get the idea about KDE being unintuitive. It depends on intuition, I guess. Ask a noob to add fonts in Gnome, for example.
36 • Nice Comparo (by Dave on 2007-12-03 13:20:41 GMT from Canada)
I liked it and appreciate the effort. Next time, could we add a BSD (like PC-BSD) too? Thanks for doing it - I'm going to print this one, and compare it the light versions I just got for my old clunker.
37 • Package management in Source Mage (by didjital magick on 2007-12-03 13:26:09 GMT from Finland)
"Eric Sandall, one of the most prominent Source Mage developers was
interviewed by Mage Power, giving an excellent overview of the project and
its package management called "grimoire" (functionally an equivalent of
Gentoo's Portage)"
Nice to see that DistroWatch noticed this interview. One correction, though:
the package manager in Source Mage is actually called "sorcery". It is
written in Bash and it has a command line interface where you type commands,
but it has also an alternative interface where you can configure the package
manager using a menu. You can also use the same menu to browse the available
packages and to install/uninstall/upgrade them. The "sorcery" package
manager can also optionally play sounds when the installation of a package
has finished (this can be useful because compiling packages can take a while
and you don't have to watch the screen all the time to notice when the job's
been done).
Instead of packages, Source Mage talks of "spells", which are scripts that
download the source packages (plus their dependencies) and then build &
install them. The Source Mage term for installing packages is "casting
spells". For instance, you can install Firefox by typing "cast firefox". A
"grimoire", as you might guess, is a collection of "spells". There are two
main grimoires -- a "stable" grimoire where software versions are not
updated until the next "stable" grimoire is released, and a "test" grimoire
that gets updates practically every day. (Both "stable" and "test" grimoire
include the same packages/spells but "test" generally has newer versions of
the packages than "stable".) There are also the "games" grimoire for games
and the "z-rejected" grimoire for binary-only packages and non-free stuff.
When people first hear about Source Mage, they usually ask what's the
difference between Gentoo and Source Mage? That's a good question and an
enlightening answer to that question can be found here:
http://wiki.sourcemage.org/FAQ/Gentoo/Philosophical
38 • Debian Debian Debian (by Syamsul Anuar on 2007-12-03 13:32:02 GMT from Malaysia)
The writer should have test debian... And BTW mostly the Fedora review is mostly true... Its quite hard at first but then on the long run you start to appreciate it more...
39 • dyne:bolic (by Gene Venable on 2007-12-03 13:57:16 GMT from United States)
What's a "media activist"?
40 • You forgot slackware and debian (by Antonio on 2007-12-03 13:57:49 GMT from United States)
root@localhost:~# cat /etc/slackware-version
Slackware 12.0.0
Debian is not the mother of all distros. It is the mother of most, but it is not the mother. Slackware is the oldest surviving linux distro.
Regards
41 • RE 38, etc : I agree that Debian should have been added (by dbrion on 2007-12-03 14:02:22 GMT from France)
and my favourite distr(s), too!
What is more, this methodology (which has been used by Arizlo (in his web site), and rglk, here) should be used, for ONE distr, by at least 2/3 pple (ideally without knowing the name of the distr they are testing, to avoid fanboiism!) and for many aspects , some of which are forgotten here. Je veux parler, bien sûr, du support digne de ce nom de quelques langues.... autres que l'Anglais americain.... , mais j'en oublie....
De plus, la proportion de Linux orientés vers le parasitisme et la démagogie est bien plus faible que 2/8....
OTOH, I saw a total beginner very happy with a Fedora he managed to install (no matter the time) and I never saw an UBU linux user happy at all (I tried this beggar oriented -sheep eat- stuff, and was very unhappy!).
42 • Freespire (by DarkStar on 2007-12-03 14:02:31 GMT from United States)
Don't be so tough on Freespire, guys. I'm sure that all 3 of it's users appreciate seeing it on here ;-)
43 • Hey complainers! (by EduardoZ on 2007-12-03 14:16:34 GMT from United States)
The solution is obvious: put together your own comparative roundup of distros you've recently tried. When you take the initiative that Baris did, complete with sectional scoring and summaries, you'll end up with the world's most perfect evaluation (for you), and another interesting comparison for the rest of us. Ladislav would probably welcome another well-written shootout with another crop of distros featured. We're all looking forward to your contribution.
44 • Grand overview comparisons (by Richard Carlson on 2007-12-03 14:21:19 GMT from United States)
I applaud Baris Paraskeva for his attempt to compare the above fore-mentioned software distro's.
I too can also agree with some of his initial assessments (though ranking is more a matter of his own personal taste I believe.)
Ubuntu,Mint, Mepis, PclinuxOS, have been the very easiest for me to use and install whereas Fedora, OpenSuse, Sabayon, Freespire have been the ones that have varied issues requiring some knowledge and understanding and may be hard for the Linux beginner (i.e. proprietary wifi connectivity problems,video card issues, distro comparisons (i.e. older and 'stable' packages vs leading edge software distro's, and package installers that are familiar to BSD users. (Portals require more time and patience during the installation and compilation of some software packages and their dependencies).
I've toyed around with about 12 different distro's (by no means a complete list to some) but the distro's that work the very 'first time' during installation and also connect my computer's peripheral hardware are the ones that get my highest vote of confidence for the Linux beginner. .
Rich
45 • Grand overview... (by Tony on 2007-12-03 14:23:15 GMT from United States)
Great job Baris - Thank You! I would have liked to seen one more category added since a laptop was used in the testing. That would be automatic wireless recognition by each Distro. Still - that was a good article - once again, Thanks!
46 • Linutop (by voislav on 2007-12-03 14:25:34 GMT from Canada)
It would be interesting to see if anyone picks up on this. Linutop is too expensive, but I wonder what someone like Asus would be able to do with this. Interent cafes where you just plug in your usb stick and you're ready to go. No malware/spyware or any maintanance problems. Talk about $100 computer.
47 • Donation (by Anon at 2007-12-03 14:45:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
Surely there was a more deserving and non-commercial project in need of a donation, rather than lining the pockets of corporate directors & investors?
48 • Ratings - Why Contrive the answer (by winsnomore on 2007-12-03 14:59:48 GMT from United States)
I am disappointed by the arbitrary assignment of ratings.
Why did the reviewer have to give PCLinuxOS 7 for package management if not to knock it off from the top spot.
The package selection in PCLinuxOS is second to none I have used .. and it uses the synaptic. Not having gnome desktop default option is not a justifiable reason to knock it down by 2 points.
This kind of shenanigan takes away from the credibility of this site .. please don't do this again.
49 • @48 (by EduardoZ on 2007-12-03 15:06:14 GMT from United States)
Come on... I like PCLinuxOS as much as the next PCLinuxOS user. But, to say package selection is second to none (heh, ok, for those you've used) is just bizarre. It's got all the essentials for most people, but, it's far, far from extensive.
50 • Jeesh! (by RC on 2007-12-03 15:16:50 GMT from United States)
Not going to be many volunteers to write articles if they get this kind of reception.
51 • #47 (by RC on 2007-12-03 15:22:17 GMT from United States)
I assume this is directed towards Mepis. I wasn't aware they had corporate directors and investors...but what if they do? Is there something wrong with making a profit? Earning a living? I am curious...how do you pay your bills?
52 • RE: 47 • Donation (by Garret on 2007-12-03 15:23:59 GMT from United States)
Hu? ". . . lining the pockets of corporate directors & investors" If this is about Mepis then it would seem that you have a lot more info about this distro than the rest of us. Last I looked Mepis was mostly a one man show, who recently had to go back to the consulting world to cover expenses ("Wow, thanks Ladislav! That'll help pay the bills. Warren."). I would be interested in how this would meet the criteria as laid out in your statement.
53 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-12-03 15:30:31 GMT from United States)
What a surprise, a complaint that PCLinuxOS is not worshipped.
> The package selection in PCLinuxOS is second to none I have used
Then you have evidently not used many distros. The review is done from the point of view of a new Linux user, as it should be. Experienced users don't need such a list for the most part. We've already tried these distros and more.
I also agree with Debian and Slackware being excluded. Package management is not what it should be for a newbie in Slackware (no dependency checking!) and Debian is just not designed for new users (I'm a happy Debian user). I think that for completeness Mandriva should have been included.
Great DWW and the donation to Mepis is well deserved.
54 • nice weekly - expand and grow (by Bill Savoie on 2007-12-03 15:31:53 GMT from United States)
Nice work Ladislav! Baris did a good job, a snap shot of what I enjoy, trying out new Distros. I found Baris's choice of OpenSuse telling. He notes it isn't as fast, or high on his rating system, but it still is the one that wins his heart. I found the same. The real success, is allowing Distrowatch to grow. One Ladislav, needs co-workers. This cooperation is done without the normal cash flow of extortion capitalism. It is a dynamic example of the new spirit of what is good for all is worth doing. This new spirit is the driving force behind open source software. Ladislav is a living example of synergism. Of course it is a process that must encourage new people to step up and deliver. One for all and all for one.
55 • RE: #48 (by Garret on 2007-12-03 15:35:59 GMT from United States)
I believe it was relative to the number of packages available, which IMO is a bit less than many other distros, not the package manager itself.
Also, it was very clear in the review and many times in comments that this is one person's experience, I have a hard time seeing how it harms the credibility of this site, or in fact any site that would post the review in the context it was posted.
I hope my response hasn't further damaged the credibility of this site also.
56 • Linutop (by john frey on 2007-12-03 15:37:13 GMT from Canada)
I like the idea but the Asus eee is far more compelling. I'm not sure where they hope to sell these but who wants to take along a PC that requires you to mess with plugs? Try to find a USB keyboard. I'm sure there are many out there but don't expect to walk into work or an internet cafe and have a USB keyboard at each kiosk. PS2 is still the standard from my experience. This is a nifty idea for geeks but far too limited. USB sticks are nifty ideas too but most computers don't allow boot from USB yet.
I look forward to the day you walk up to any terminal and boot your own OS from a memory stick that connects with an encrypted wireless connection. The Linutop is one step closer but still several generations (or eons) from perfection. Speaking of wireless why would the Linutop not have built in wireless? I guess if you're digging behind the PC to extract cables for VGA, mouse and (USB) keyboard, then extracting the RJ45 connector is a small extra step.
57 • Question (by Anonymous on 2007-12-03 15:37:14 GMT from United States)
The comparisons in this DWW were interesting.
I am wondering if there is a website that shows statistics like those reported here for a wider range of distros and hardware. If not, it is a shame. I know there are sites that allow users to upload info about Linux installations on laptops. It would be nice if I could try distros on my computers, perform a range of tests (like boot speed) and post it.
58 • Misc (48 internet cafés) and 49 (by dbrion on 2007-12-03 15:38:04 GMT from France)
@ 48
"Interent cafes where you just plug in your usb stick and you're ready to go"
Do you know any cybercafé who allows booting? (as their PCs are controlled by software to allow counting /*and selling */ time, I never saw that....
OTOH, I can manage, sometimes, to have cygwin installed (for repetitive | > 2G downloads). It needs some negociation, even with a Linux friendly cybercafé's landlord (FYI, he has for his personal use a Gentoo, a friend of him installed, and he is happy with it....
but none of his customers, except me, wants GNU/linux and even Firefox : that makes popularity based ranks highly interesting and convincing....).
If a small motherboard is slightly expensive, perhaps it is linked that its distributor manages to fund free projects (like Perl developping, etc...) I really do not know. (FYI, 32 Mbits RAM and 64 Mbits flash disk Fox (with a very austere Linux kernel, meseems) is sold 200 Eur$. in (alph order) France and Italy; that makes price comparisons very difficult).
@ 49
Monsieur l'Ânon,
I doubt Mepis can "line the pockets of corporate directors, investors", and the full staff of Mexican Army....
OTOH, if Mepis disappeared, it would be a pity, as a unique (w/r to language recognition, at least), old/cheap PC oriented distr, AntiX, would have to rebase....
I do not know how can distr manage with HW recognition if they are not funded : are there special rainy zones?
59 • Mandriva? (by José on 2007-12-03 15:41:16 GMT from France)
No really, I can't believe that. You seek easy distributions AND package management, and forget Mandriva. Moauahahah! Please give it a try with your hard to configure laptop ;-)
60 • Fedora, OLPC (by Ed Borasky on 2007-12-03 15:45:45 GMT from United States)
1. I disagree with your reviewer's comments about Fedora requiring a lot of command-line configuration. As far as I'm concerned it's as easy to administer as Ubuntu. I don't use it for wireless (yet) so I can't comment on that part of it, but just about everything else is as easy to configure from Gnome as anybody else's Gnome desktop.
2. I've spent quite a bit of time over the last few days playing around with Fedora 8 and the One Laptop Per Child XO software. I joined the Give One Get One program and expect to receive a hardware unit in mid-January. Until then, I've loaded the images in VMware Workstation and I must say they've done a really good thing with the user interface. It's Fedora 7 based, and the development tools run best on Fedora 7 or 8, although supposedly they will run on Ubuntu. They don't run on any 64-bit machine as far as I can tell, and they probably don't run on Gentoo.
Red Hat and Fedora have contributed money and talent to the OLPC project, and regardless of your views about that project and Red Hat, I think people ought to check out OLPC. The images will run on Qemu -- that's actually the preferred emulator since it's open source. Once you get up, you can actually network with other people who have either real hardware (late beta at this point) or emulators on line!
61 • MEPIS receives $300.00 (by Jimmy Johnson on 2007-12-03 15:51:40 GMT from United States)
Thank you Ladislav.
I know you have made Warren's Holiday brighter. :)
Now to Mepis and your Popular Desktop Distribution Review.
Ease of installation: I think that being able to save your /home files is worth mentioning , even if your /home is on the same partition as /root and with a good burn the installation will only take 10-15 mins, if your installation takes longer you should burn you cd's at a slower speed.
Ease of use: With KDE and Konqueror file management and both root and su, you are able to right click and get an Action menu that will let you "open as root", "edit as root" and "open a folder in the Terminal" and you have the magic of "'Mepis Tools" too, talk about ease of use. :)
Package management: With apt, Synaptic and KPackage there is none other easer to use.
Speed: Now, I'm not a speed freak, but, Mepis is fast enough to keep any speed freak happy.
62 • LOL! Freespire (by davemc on 2007-12-03 15:56:26 GMT from United States)
Does anyone actually USE Freespire?.. Anyone?.. Its funny that most of Linspires gang jumped ship, and the ex-CEO is now onboard with Ubuntu while he campaigns for Romney :=P and chides the Ubuntu team for not paying homage to the gods of proprietary codecs!..
Who knows? Maybe the Ubuntu team can pull off the 'ol "vendor lockin" scheme like Fedora has done (aka "codec buddy", read "Fluendo vendor lockin tool") to assuage the growing fears of the open source know-nothings.
63 • No subject (by Eudoxus on 2007-12-03 15:59:15 GMT from Latvia)
"Why did the reviewer have to give PCLinuxOS 7 for package management if not to knock it off from the top spot."
Sorry, but this is called paranoia or something liek that. I am not a physician, but I am sure that you have to adjust your reasoning modules a bit. Nothin personal, but really, your post ir really weird.
Anyway, the reason why he gave 7 for package managment was the fact that there are too smaal a choice. If you don't believe that, then check debian repositories, for example.
I like PCLOS but lets face it - as far as package coice goes it is beaten by many distros. And for abvious reason. To maintain big repositories you need manpower.
64 • Errors in PCLinuxOS review (by KDulcimer on 2007-12-03 16:03:28 GMT from United States)
"The CD includes proprietary video card drivers, so you have the option during installation, to use the X.Org video driver or the proprietary NVIDIA driver."
PCLinuxOS does *not* come with the proprietary video card drivers on the ISO image. If you got a CD with the video card driver, make sure you have PCLinuxOS 2007 and didn't somehow get ahold of PCLinuxOS .92 or older.
"Adding new users is somewhat awkward as you have to carefully select each of the groups they belong to so that they can use the system resources."
The default groups should work perfectly unless you're using VirtualBox. Did you set up a new user with the PCLinuxOS Control Center or the KDE Control Center?
"Adding repositories through the Synaptic package manager is easy, but PCLinuxOS is somewhat light on additional packages."
I have the testing repo enabled and I see PCLinuxOS has almost 7,500 packages.
"Many of the listed additional repositories are just mirrors of the main repositories."
All of the listed repos are mirrors of the main repos.
"The package groupings in Synaptic are good, but nothing is displayed while the repositories are being checked, so it looks like the system has hung for a while."
There should be a bar in the lower right corner which moves.
Also, this is a known issue with PCLinuxOS. For some reason Synaptic is slow. I believe it's in part because you're running a GTK application in a QT environment. Part is because KDE is memory-hungry. However, that doesn't explain why apt-get is slow too. Part of it might be that the package lists are bz2 compressed. Perhaps if the package lists were gzipped apt would be faster.
65 • Re. 7 by Ed Holness (by Nanlee on 2007-12-03 16:10:05 GMT from Canada)
Agree with you about the installation. The score is for ease of installation not time for installation, so taking longer time to install more applications should not be considered a minus for the ease of installation. My personal experience with Sabayon is that it is pretty easy to install and the distro easily recognized most of the devices on my PC. But it took several hours to do so without my intervention. To me this is easy.
But, I totally disagree with your comments about the power tools in commend line. Anything to do with commend line tools is not ease of use. Remember, the score is for ease of use not for power.
To extend a little bit on this. Many, many Linux enthusiasts tend to tell people that they should spend some time to learn the commend line thing if they really want to learn Linux. But the sad truth is for 99.9% of the computer users and a vast majority of people who is curious about Linux are NOT interested in really learning Linux. To them, it is to see if Linux can be an quick and easy alternative to the Windows, NOT to learn Linux. Keep the commend line to yourselves.
66 • #65 (by RC on 2007-12-03 16:23:50 GMT from United States)
I agree. I switched to Linux because I wanted a better OS, not to spend hours learning to be a guru. None of the people that I have installed it on want to learn to be Linux guru's either. Quite the opposite in fact. They just want to use it with no hassles. We want a safe, fast, intuitive environment to work in....period. All the folks with the Arch and Gentoo mindset need to try to understand that not everyone thinks in those terms. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of users don't. The Mint's, Mepis's and PCLinuxOS's are where the big influx of new users are going to come. The more painless and familiar Linux becomes to Windows and Mac users, the faster they will come. And that is a good thing for the future of Linux.
67 • Yay Vixta! (by Sam on 2007-12-03 16:33:11 GMT from United States)
I just want to say "Job well redone!" to all the wonderfull programmers who spent so many hours producing the Linux Vixta distro. I cant' say just how impressed and pleased I am that Linuxland receives yet another Windows knock-off. From the looks of the distro, it sure will give Windows Vista Home Basic a run for its money. ...and you know, I thought even Microsoft engineers agreed that Windows Vista Home Basic sucked...
68 • 66 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-03 16:33:32 GMT from United States)
> As a matter of fact, the vast majority of users don't.
Most new users do not. However, I would argue that with experience, most users do like being able to do more with their OS. It's just that it takes a while to get to the point where they are comfortable with tweaking.
I don't think Sabayon will ever have mass appeal. However, I also think the myth that users don't want a command line is just that, a myth. It's very efficient and more powerful than a gui could ever hope to be (too many options to make all combinations accessible). Most users don't use most options, but most users have a use for some specialized options.
69 • You forgot slackware and debian (by Antonio on 2007-12-03 16:36:42 GMT from United States)
root@localhost:~# cat /etc/slackware-version
Slackware 12.0.0
Debian is not the mother of all distros. It is the mother of most, but it is not the mother. Slackware is the oldest surviving linux distro.
Regards
70 • Synaptic is slow in PCLOS!! Yes! (by Vaithy on 2007-12-03 16:44:11 GMT from India)
-Because synaptic is actually for Debian package manager, and when it is converted to RPM package manager it tend to be slow.. if PCLOS use deb. instead of Rpm. packages then you can see the difference,
71 • Reviews (by kilgoretrout on 2007-12-03 16:48:14 GMT from United States)
Mr. Baris's reviews are pretty predictable:
The more ubuntu-lke the distro, the higher the score; and as a corollary:
Gnome==good, KDE==bad.
These may be the reviewer's personal preferences, but most reviewers at try harder for some objectivity. This is about as useful as PHR for judging distros and probably less so.
72 • MEPIS donation (by CeVO on 2007-12-03 16:58:16 GMT from Spain)
Ladislav, this could not have come at a better time. An incentive for Warren to keep working on MEPIS and making it better.
The review: fair, although I think a couple of unique MEPIS things have been missed such as grub and xorg.conf restoration, assistants to create users, changing system locales, installing and configuring proprietary drivers for ATI and NVIDIA with one click, very good wireless support and what else.
Nonetheless, we do not all have the same requirements, that is why there is a choice.
But, again, it is nice to see that MEPIS gets recognition for being the very first easy to install and easy to use distro. The community is really picking up now with lots of new ideas and directions. So the future is looking OK!
73 • A review of a review (by Landor on 2007-12-03 17:01:12 GMT from Canada)
I won't critique the man for taking the time to write what he believed a decent review, but I will the review. That said..
As with anything, especially from an end-user perspective, everything is subjective, especially in regard to individual perceptions. While informative in some areas, and I'm sure it was felt to be while it was being composed, the perception of continuity in the review was lost in a grey area.
A prime example of this is the lack of consistently including each install time. We also see the mention of a NVIDIA proprietary driver. The actual card is not mentioned. I don't own a VAIO nor an HP ( for a desktop box I've built my own for the last 20 or so years) so I personally have no idea what is in either.
We were not told how the measurement of speed was accomplished as well.I have personally found the install times on three of these distros (Fedora, Mint, openSUSE) less than 40 mins on a P4 1.4 with 512 ram box that's basically a doorstop/test system. I can't imagine why two better units would take longer, other than unresolved/informed hardware issues not related to an OS.
The inability to select the desktop for Sabayon lends credence to a subjective review. Installation software is subject to choice during the Sabayon install. The review would've been better if it had mentioned the criteria for the install, as with most (big name) DVD installs you have multiple choices for packages. Say, I will install this as I would the CD's, just advancing forward and letting it do it's auto-default for packages and such.
Another point to mention is that it is widely known that Gnome more resembles MAC than Windows, yet KDE is considered not Windowsish (my word there) friendly. That's another perception that doesn't do much for the review. I know for a fact that many people firing up Ubuntu perse' for the first time would think "what's this, why's everything on top?".as just it's desktop appearance due to Gnome is far different than what the normal PC user is accustomed to.
Boot speeds, well, I think they're way off for a couple. But I wasn't there so who knows.
What I've been hoping for is a 6 month Eval of Sabayon from you Ladislav since you just switched over to Fedora correct?
Also, thank you for accepting MEPIS for the donation this month. A fine early Gift for a man who was probably feeling a bit left out in the cold.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
74 • The review (and resulting comments) (by roadie on 2007-12-03 17:06:59 GMT from Canada)
I found the review to be fairly good, thought out, the basics well covered. I personally don't use any of the distro's mentioned in the review so it does'nt really help me, which is fine.
I agree that Debian should have been tested, after all it is the mother of a lot of spinoffs (forks). I also believe that Slackware should have been included. I realize that Slack has a reputation of being difficult to use, though I have never found that to be true.
I suppose it comes down to what a user wants, basic tools that work or eye candy that masks a flawed system. The Slackware installer will never win any beauty contest, but it works, at least for me. And the comments against the command line are really quite ridiculous. It's simply a tool, actually a very powerful tool that gives you complete control over your system.
It's not like you have to be a "guru" to be able to use a command line and comments against it's use, I believe come from users of the "point and click" fan club. They will never have the control of the system that they should have.
The reason I and thousands of others moved to Linux was because we did'nt have that control in Windows, too many things were going on in the background that we knew nothing about. We did'nt control the system, it controlled itself via the makers instructions.
The results are obvious and well known, security holes galore, viruses, worms, etc: and the same will happen in Linux because of the need for "ease of use" (laziness)
I don't want a "point and click" Linux system, migrating away from the command line to such a system is stupid.
Attacks on post #7 are equally stupid and quite ignorant.
roadie
75 • Re: 66 (by jack on 2007-12-03 17:07:39 GMT from Canada)
" also think the myth that users don't want a command line is just that, a myth
It is all too easy to make a mistake typing in commands which may appear to have no logical structure(to the beginner)
The one thing that I as a newbie fear the most is doing something which crashes my computer and which I have: A, no idea what i did and :B, no knowledge of how to correct my error.
AND no web access for information
76 • An error in the donation section Ladislav (by Landor on 2007-12-03 17:13:30 GMT from Canada)
I just wanted to point out something you missed in the donation section of this week's issue that slipped by you to change this month..
"These vendors contributed US$50.00 each towards this month's donation to NimbleX."
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
77 • # 65 & 66 (by terminal velocity on 2007-12-03 17:14:11 GMT from France)
The command line interface (CLI) can be intimidating for new users if they're used to the MS Windows GUI interface. But if they have no previous experience of using computers, the command line can actually be easy and fun. The main benefit of the CLI is that it's a very simple interface. You learn some twenty or thirty commands and you can already do a lot of things from the CLI in any GNU/Linux system.
The GUI programs are usually very complex and not too intuitive. They change all the time and you need to learn new stuff every year, but you only need to learn the basic Bash shell commands once and they will always work in every GNU/Linux distro you happen to use. And typing the name of the executable in a terminal emulator is often a quicker way to start an application than clicking through a maze of menu entries. There are also some nice terminal programs (like the Midnight Commander and popular text editors like vi and nano) that you can find in just about every distro.
For further discussion, please check out these two articles (at OSNews):
http://www.osnews.com/story.php/6282/
http://www.osnews.com/story.php/4418/
78 • About time... (by DistRogue on 2007-12-03 17:37:59 GMT from Spain)
It took you long enough to acknowledge MEPIS as a top distribution. The beta 6 and RC1 releases for version 7 went by completely unannounced. What's the deal?
79 • RE: 75 (by Landor on 2007-12-03 17:44:43 GMT from Canada)
I've run into this problem. Some would consider me an advanced Linux user, I'd disagree. But, I am lucky to be experienced on many OS', including Linux prior to this year and delving into it as a desktop, or I would've been done like dinner..lol One of the issues was when I tried to help my buddy with his video card (that he finally returned :) ) I was trying various distros on his box while it was here and also chose Gentoo. I thought using some of the unstable versions of software like X might fix the problem. When I did, if I remember correctly I had no mouse support. Luckily I knew enough to just install the driver again. Not many, if any, first time users would've understood that and would've been lost, especially on the command line.
To my friend's video card... This is a treat and a review from what I know of his experience for those choosing ATI.
I've always been a fan of NVIDIA and would never tell anyone to by anything else.
My friend after over a month of dealing with his brand new VISIONTEK 2400 HD PRO/256 AGP video card not working with Linux finally returned it and replaced it with an EVGA 7600 GT Superclocked/512.
The clincher for him was support of course. He had continual issues with the system freezing on the desktop whenever he ran anything requiring 3D. If he launched any kind've game that was 2D he had distorted graphics. Also, scrolling in all apps was horrid to say the least. He returned to chipset for video while waiting for a fix.
After giving up on trying to find help online, using the radeonhd drivers to no avail. He thought he'd call VISIONTEK support one more time and see what he could get from them. He was basically told that AGP doesn't really work (which he knew already) and that they don't know anyone able to give him any support for Linux. Again, which he'd basically known prior to this but thought he'd give it one more shot. Before the phone tech ended the call they told my friend to contact support via e-mail since the people answering it might be able to help more. So in essence they're telling him, our phone support people suck, don't call us..lol Commonly known no?
He e-mailed support from their site, gave them the exact specs of his system, the exact problems he's having, and of course the card he has installed. One thing he did mention and I told him when I first worked on the system it wasn't an issue, was that the card didn't have anywhere to connect anything for supplementary power, and he stated that since there wasn't any, he believed this was a non-issue and unrelated to his problems and finished up with asking if they could give him advice as to how me may find a solution for this.
Tech support's answer? the graphics card does not require an external power connector.
That's when it got returned and he bought a NVIDIA.
Based on real life experience with NVIDIA (we have 4 8800 GTX's in our main boxes, 2 each and lower-end cards in a couple of our others), and my friend's own troubles, don't by ATI, or anything with ATI as the chipset. This kind of support is ludicrous, and he faired no better on the phone with ATI a few weeks ago.
Buy NVIDIA or Intel.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
80 • Errata (by Leandro Doctors at 2007-12-03 17:45:47 GMT from Argentina)
Ladislav: there is a small mistake above.
> These vendors contributed US$50.00 each towards this month's
> donation to NimbleX.
NimbleX --> MEPIS
Regards from San Juan, Argentina
L
81 • typos abound (by Landor on 2007-12-03 17:48:01 GMT from Canada)
by=buy
82 • Re: Errors in PCLinuxOS review (by Whitt Madden on 2007-12-03 18:10:32 GMT from United States)
The 7500 packages found in the PCLOS repositories, pale in comparison to the 23,000 + packages found in a debian-based distro. The only other distros with anywhere closed to that would be the gentoo-based distros. I haven't found any .rpm based distro able to compete with that.
83 • I DO NOT AGREE with the marks and comments given to sabayon (by arthur on 2007-12-03 18:16:18 GMT from Romania)
i mean, yes, it is not intended for novice, but this is what i was when i started using it. with sabayon, i learn a lot about linux, compiling, debugging, programming, using programs, and for the first time in a life, i could solve my problems without any outside help. it's true, you have to spend a lot of time to learn it but it is really powerful and fast and complex. if you want to have an os that just works, i don't recommend it, at least not for now. those sabayon developers have great plans for the future. sabayon made me curious about what is "under the hood" and help me to be able to configure the system as i like.
you CANNOT give marks to a system without using it a little bit and learning about it. you just can't. for my experience with it, i'd give it 8.5 for ease of installation (don't see what's so hard, i did it without any further linux knowledge), general ease of use 8 (you just shouldn't mess around with the fire), package management 9.5 (really, really powerful and complete, about the search, you didn't use the right tools :P), speed 8. average 8.5 and a 10 for the work of the developers, and for the great ideas they have had, which made sabayon what is now
84 • Mass Review (by Jesse on 2007-12-03 18:16:43 GMT from Canada)
I have been a fan and user of Red Hat/Fedora products for a long
time, but I have to agree with this review. Fedora is not focused
on ease of use. It's a good, solid desktop for experienced Linux
users and, with some tweaking, is good for newbies too. The
one hting I think they really need to work on is package
management. They've gone through five package managers and updaters in four years (pirut, pup, synaptic, yumex)
and it's still a slow, un-intuitive mess. I've tried filing bug reports
and feature requests. Sadly, the responses I got back were
negative.
I get the impression, Fedora isn;t interested in fixing things, just punping out new test releases with new features.
85 • @ 38 (by Mike on 2007-12-03 18:25:50 GMT from United States)
Debian is a distro by geeks for geeks. Always has been, always will be. Most don't know how to use it correctly to unleash it's power, so it is safe just to avoid it altogether.
Which is fine - we know the power and how to use it. That's what sets us apart from the others (distros) and I am quite proud of that.
86 • RE: 83 (by Landor on 2007-12-03 18:39:33 GMT from Canada)
Everyone has an opinion and I'm gonna say mine :)
I've found Sabayon to be very slow in regards to package management, ie: actually compiling/installing. The over-extended amount of use flags is the reason. I don't know the scale in which to gauge it correctly, but I can say for the things I did try to install on Sabayon it took at the least twice as long as Gentoo, which as I said was in no doubt due to the use flags in the make.conf, it's like going to a foods of the world court at an international fair, everything's there.
Again, in regard to speed, I found Sabayon to have a lot more wait time than Gentoo. I did a general install with almost all software (a couple big games I didn't install) and KDE was the desktop. It lagged really hard on my system. As with the above, I can only say this was due to use flags, but maybe I'm wrong on that factor, shrugs.
I'll agree that both Sabayon and Gentoo are easy to use. That's based on my perception of the simple fact that if someone can read as well as comprehend what they read and follow directions, then yes it's easy to use, and easy to install. But one factor in that equation that you left out and also talked about it's power, and I leave it out too, is the desire to do so. If someone doesn't want to read, comprehend, follow specific instructions, and of course learn, then neither of them are easy to use, or apropriate for someone coming over from another OS to Linux for the first time.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
87 • RE: 82 (by Landor on 2007-12-03 18:46:49 GMT from Canada)
While I'll agree that Debian, Gentoo and BSD based distros have the greatest amount of packages and a few have been touting that fact. I have to point out a simple fact. How many of those packages are really out of date, and how many of them are dead-in-the-water probjects? I've noticed this with ever distro with a huge package database, even Gentoo.
I don't think it's a great selling point to advertise that Gentoo based, Debian based, or BSD based, etc have X amount of packages over the other distros when quite a number fit into the category(ies) above.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
88 • @64 (by Adam Williamson on 2007-12-03 18:54:59 GMT from Canada)
7500 is fairly thin compared to most major distros (Mandriva is over 16,000, SUSE is in the same ballpark, Debian is higher than that).
Yes, bz2 is fairly slow and intensive on uncompression. gzip might be a good alternative; so might lzma.
89 • jeez... (by Eric on 2007-12-03 18:57:38 GMT from Canada)
Holy crap Landor, stop with the so many Red Green keep your stick on the ice things, sure for maybe 1 in every 5 posts but for a constant signature omg, wed have a whole rainforest plastered on the rink by now, I'm from Canada too, and even your annoying me with one of my favourite shows as u use it for you own praise and recognition
I'll ducktape you to Bill and see how you fair ;)
90 • Mandriva and Debian - notable exceptions (by Baris Paraskeva on 2007-12-03 19:09:23 GMT from United States)
I anticipated that there would be complaints about the exclusion of Mandriva and Debian (among others). Both those distros almost made it into the article. It is worth noting though, that there are over 300 Linux Distros out there. I had to stop somewhere, and it was a considerable effort to cover those in the article.
Baris
91 • Once again Sabayon under-rated. (by sickofubuntufanboys on 2007-12-03 19:11:50 GMT from United States)
I have Sabayon on one of my computers. It has proven to be very stable, often running for months, problem free. The install was far from slow, taking about 45 minutes. Considering it is a dvd install including the optional games, completed in the same amount of time that you praise as fast for a cd install.. well.. yet again you prove your pro-ubuntu bias. But it's no wonder since you make money from ubuntu ads and any real criticism would impact your income.
92 • Reviews (by Jason on 2007-12-03 19:31:09 GMT from United States)
not a bad review of the distros, but it seemed to be more subjective than objective. For instance, it seemed like you doing a lot more to stress test Fedora's package system. Yet Ubuntu failed twice on install and got an 8, that sounds like a 6 to me.
93 • /sigh (by Nnyan on 2007-12-03 19:37:50 GMT from United States)
I love these types of reviews if only b/c of the Fanatics that come out of the woodwork. I just don't believe that many people have their panties on so tight but then a Linux review comes out and there they are.
Lets take them one at a time:
1. BOO HOO HOO!! My ________ Distro wasn't included and it's so much better then _________ YOU SUCK!
OK then go out and take the time to review at least your distro (if not all the others also) and publish it for everyone to review and tear apart. I wonder why you haven't done so? Hmmmm.....
2. I realize this is just a very broad not too detailed review BUT you really didn't go into too much detail and you should have done this or that.
OK again take the time to install all these distros, and the ones you want into there and then improve the review and flesh it out.
3. My _______ distro only took 45.3 seconds to boot while you reported it took 48.9 secs! YOU SUCK. If you search through the forums for an obscure post you'll clearly find links to 17 other posts that walk you through optimizing the boot times in an easy 31 steps.
OK so everyone's PC is different and YMMV, that the only thing you're bringing?
THANK you for anyone that takes his/her time to review distros, even if its just a high level review and only one person's opinion it's helpful. Those others that never take the time to contribute with reviews or documentation but LOVE to rip apart people who have the courage to put it out there, YOU SUCK.
94 • Fedora 8 (by igknighted on 2007-12-03 19:44:36 GMT from United States)
The review of Fedora 8 missed the mark completely. If anything, repositories in Fedora are the best managed, and the YUM package manager is right on par with apt and well clear of zypper/yast.
The review claimed that adding repositories in Fedora was a difficult and/or arduous process, yet this could not be farther from the truth. Lets compare to adding repositories in Ubuntu. In ubuntu, you need to find the website (or a forum post) with the info on the repository, then you need to edit a text file or pass CLI commands to add it. Then you need to pass CLI commands to get the key, then you need to manually update the repos. In Fedora you simply download an RPM in most cases and double click, easy as pie. On the rare case the repo doesn't have an install RPM, you simply download the .repo file and put it in the folder (no editing files involved). Then you can instantly use it. No need to manually update, no need to mess around with manually downloading the key. YUM will take care of that. I will confess that the community repos section of suse's yast is tremendous, and is a big reason why opensuse 10.3 is currently on my laptop.
The reviewers could be complaining about the poor default GUI for YUM (Pirut). But spending any time around fedora documentation and users, they should have been very quickly pointed to Yumex, which is so much superior to Pirut. Perhaps a bit of a gaff not including this instead (yes, this angers many of us), but it's such a simple app to install its not worth complaining too much.
As for resolving depndencies, I would trust YUM over apt any day. Especially on my 64 bit systems, YUM is able to manage the arch type of each package so I can have 32 bit version of apps available when I want them. This type of thing baffles apt. Also, Fedora uses a community-based repo system. The advantage to this is that the users can make sure that repos have the software they want. The downside is a higher risk of depend. errors. Not YUMs fault, simply a tradeoff for having repo's more responsive to users wants. Go spend time with Ubuntu and use some of the many community repos there and you will run into the same issue with apt.
You end your review by stating that new users may be confused by some aspects of Fedora... OF COURSE! Come to fedoraforums.org and most users will suggest to new users to go find a different distro... Fedora does not tailor to new users! So you can give it all the bad new-user reviews you want... but when it comes down to a user that wants more control of their system and many of the latest and greatest packages, none of the other distro's you list can really compare (aside from Sabayon if you recompile it to get back closer to stock Gentoo).
95 • Re 87 • RE: 82 (by Landor (by john frey on 2007-12-03 19:54:41 GMT from Canada)
While I agree that some of the packages in the largest repos may be useless to many a large repository also can also include MANY new and up to date programs. Now that is a selling point.
One of the reasons I stick with Mandriva is this. When I read about a new program or application that I want to try out it is usually in the repositories already. One of the things you will find with Debian, Red Hat and Suse and Ubuntu is that there are often packages made for it by the developers of the program or application. Often those packages are in the repositories as well. The small distros like PClinuxOS, Mepis, etc. cannot hope to compete with that. They must compete elsewhere.
Also... "I have to point out a simple fact. How many of those packages are really out of date, and how many of them are dead-in-the-water probjects?" You might want to work on your reasoning there. You are not pointing out a fact but asking a question, presumably a rhetorical question, expecting the reader to infer something. No facts in that sentence at all.
Keep it up with the "stick on the ice" thing. It's Canadian. Yay.
96 • @ 62, re: codecs (by igknighted on 2007-12-03 20:04:21 GMT from United States)
Vendor lock-in? Are you serious? They are the ONLY solution available that fits the Red Hat legal teams guidelines for these codecs. Go read fedora-devel for a while... the desire was to point to livna or the upcoming fusion repo, but RH legal said no. They won't let the distro officially point users to sources of software that are possibly patent-encumbered. That said, all you need to do is add livna and you can install all the normal gstreamer plugins and all the other codecs like any other distro. So its all there, and Fedora is just trying to offer whatever they can to help, but sue to legal issues, it isn't that much.
97 • CLI isn't an extra feature you can get rid of (by KimTjik on 2007-12-03 20:15:37 GMT from Sweden)
I won't make an argument about whether it's easier or not. It looks like many make up their minds beforehand though. Personally I appreciate a mix.
The point I want to make though is that CLI is an integrated part of Linux and can't be excluded. It will always be there (thankfully). The only thing the 100 % GUI advocates can wish for is that developers make more GUI-front-ends of CLI commands, which they are doing all the time. Be aware though that even Microsoft is silently accepting the need for a useful CLI shell, so they released their copy of a bash-shell, the so called "power-shell". A funny world, isn't it?
Someone wrote here that Arch and Gentoo users need to understand the majority of users, who the writer assume don't want any CLI commands near his/hers computer experience. Being an Arch user, I don't see the point of such a comment. I've never seen any of us forcing our views on others. Arch won't change, and it doesn't have any intention of flirting with some distro ranking. It's simply filling a need quite many have. You've got to understand that there's plenty of space for all. Arch or Gentoo users don't need to convert to the 100 % GUI philosophy, just like you're not forced to choose neither Arch nether Gentoo.
If learned no-one can deny that CLI commands are faster, but that doesn't mean that all have to use them. Even new Linux-adapters should appreciate that if they at some point want to, I repeat "want to", Linux in all shapes offer different dimensions of computing.
98 • #68 & #77 (by RC on 2007-12-03 20:46:03 GMT from United States)
#66 "I also think the myth that users don't want a command line is just that, a myth. It's very efficient and more powerful than a gui could ever hope to be."
#77 "You learn some twenty or thirty commands and you can already do a lot of things from the CLI in any GNU/Linux system."
I do not disagree with your statements, but you also need to take into account my 73 year old mother. She is not interested in learning to tweak....or learn 20 or 30 CLI commands. She knows Windows and wants to sit down and be able to use it. Trouble is....XP is fairly stable but insecure....and Vista just sucks. She...and millions more just like her....aren't interested in the CLI at all...and certainly not in learning 30 CLI commands. Matter of fact, it would keep them from even trying Linux.
That is the bulk of the computer using public. Until the Linux community stops "kicking against the pricks" they are going to have a hard time getting the masses.
Those that want to play with the CLI can in any distro. Those that want to be "gurus" can run Arch and Gentoo. However, the bulk of the computer using public wants a better Windows than Windows. Me included.
99 • Re. 77 (by Nanlee on 2007-12-03 20:46:56 GMT from Canada)
"You learn some twenty or thirty commands and you can already do a lot of things from the CLI in any GNU/Linux system." Why should someone wasting time to learn and remember those 20 some commands? As I commented before, the vast majority of people who is curious about Linux (that probably represent only less than 1% of computer users) are not interested in learning Linux.
"The GUI programs are usually very complex". It may complex to developer or programmer, but it is simple to use for the users. That is reason why GUI programs are developed at the first place. You mentioned Midnight Commander. It is a good imitation of Norton Commander from the MS-DOS time, but it is not a command line command. It is a test based shell program to help people avoid learning and remembering those commands and also to do things that cannot be done with simple command. For example, if you want to see the content of folder (or directory), you can "list" them but MC enables you to scroll up and down browsing through a long list and show all the detail of each file. It there are many sub-directories, you don't need to memorize the name of each sub-directory. Instead, you simply click on the name of that one to go into that sub-directory. You don't need me to tell you all the things MC can do and a simple command can't, do you?. The function of MC is just like a GUI. To certain degree, it is a kind of GUI. Just the graphic is not fancy icon but rather simple test. Some people tend to think that GUI is about graphic, but real strength of GUI is the ease of use and the functionality.
100 • #97 (by RC on 2007-12-03 20:51:52 GMT from United States)
I think you misunderstood the point of what I was saying. I am not advocating the elimination of the CLI nor that Arch and Gentoo are not usefull distro's. My point is that the BULK of the computer buying / using public is not going to switch from Windows or Macs to those distros. They are going to want a "familiar face" that makes things at least as easy as what they are used to while providing an attractive, stable, secure interface to work and play on.
101 • #99 (by RC on 2007-12-03 20:53:44 GMT from United States)
Excellent points!
102 • Ultumix Linux is getting noticed! (by Justin Breithaupt on 2007-12-03 21:03:18 GMT from United States)
Yesterday we had 1082 page hits! Thats not a new record because when we put out our first release we had double that but now that we have put out our final pre release for 2008 I expect that great things will follow. I would like to thank everyone for their support. We may not have made the distrowatch.com distro list yet but we are trying. Our distro is designed for Windows users by previous Windows users.
I would also like to say that all the source code can be found in the PCLinuxOS repositories and the Packman Repositories on SF.net. Just in case anyone wants to ask.
103 • Linux Desktop is Ready (by Duhnonymous on 2007-12-03 21:05:40 GMT from United States)
Let's not perpetuate the myth that Linux is somehow less ready for the desktop than Mac or Windows. That's just flamebait for a stupid argument.
The REAL reason most people don't use Linux is because they are already too busy using Mac or Windows, and because the US government is currently exploiting the vulnerabilities in Windows to spy on people.
104 • #103 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-03 21:11:02 GMT from Canada)
Stop dreaming. Pulling your hair will not take you to heaven.
105 • re: 103 (by EP on 2007-12-03 21:12:21 GMT from United States)
I'm glad I brought my tin foil hat... ;)
106 • #103 (by RC on 2007-12-03 21:18:51 GMT from United States)
I am not trying to flamebait anything...contrary to your post I would think. I said nothing to give the impression that Linux is second class to any other OS. What I said was that to entice the Windows and Mac users we not only have to offer them a better OS in terms of security and power, but one that is comfortable for them and easily adapted to....not a return to DOS. They will be willing to come to an interface that offers them what they don't have...they aren't going to be willing to step back to memorized commands and CLI's.
107 • Review and other thoughts (by DeanL on 2007-12-03 21:48:52 GMT from United States)
I, for one, really liked the review. Baris did a very good and thoughtful review IMO. He used name brand equipment which a lot of users can relate to. I personally build my own computers except for my notebook of course. I read the review from the viewpoint of a newbie or one without a lot of Linux experience (which is the category I fall into). As most Linux users know, how well a disto works on your machine depends on the hardware being used. I have at one time or another used all the distros that were reviewed. and I agree with Baris' observations for the most part. Currently I have Fedora 8 on the desktop (installed over the weekend) and Sidux on my notebook. I have to agree that the package manager in Fedora 8 is not very good. After the install on Fedora 8, on reboot I was informed of 101 updates (this was expected). It too an hour and a half to complete.
The CLI has been brought up. The CLI is where Linux gets it's real power from but is not always needed for every day tasks. As an instructor at a local technical school, somewhere within the course I introduce all students to Linux. The one point that stands out is the ease with which anyone can use Linux. I am from the U.S. and most people here think that Linux has to be run from the CLI. This is not true as my students soon find out. Experienced Windows users know they need the command line for certain troubleshooting tasks. For the students that are interested, I burn them a copy of Linux (usually SimplyMepis, Mint, or PCLinuxOS in my opinion these are most newbie friendly),
Basically I tried to make 2 points:
1) I look at reviews as if they are intended for those who are new to Linux and not to the experienced Linux users. The experienced Linux user can find fault with any review of any Linux distro.
2) The CLI is a very powerful tool in Linux but is not needed for everyday normal tasks. Though some people here (most) think that if you use Linux you have to "know" the CLI and use it for everything.
108 • @88 (by harpo on 2007-12-03 22:14:41 GMT from France)
Adam Williamson wrote:
"7500 is fairly thin compared to most major distros (Mandriva is over 16,000, SUSE is in the same ballpark, Debian is higher than that)."
The number of packages in these big distros (Mandriva, SUSE, Debian...) is impressive. But it's the number of binary packages, right? The number of source packages in those distros must be somewhat smaller. These binary distros tend to cut some of the source packages into several binary packages in order to make them more modular. This is an attempt to get in binary distros some of the flexibility that users can get in source-based distros.
I think it would be a good idea if DistroWatch listed how many source packages each distro has in its official package archives. With a distro like ArchLinux this could be a bit awkward because it has a relatively small archive of official packages but a large AUR package script repository maintained by users. Still, IMHO, the number of official source packages would offer quite useful information to people who consider trying out a new distro.
109 • Everybody is correct (by Warper on 2007-12-03 22:44:13 GMT from United States)
Hey Ladislav,
Thanks for another good DWW, I really enjoy reading it every monday. And reading the comments is probably even more amusing.
Thanks to all the people that help making this place so interesting to visit everyday.
Keep up the good work,
Warper
110 • Distro Reviews... (by JAG on 2007-12-03 22:52:39 GMT from United States)
Hey, Baris...
Would you please review, Puppy and Paldo.
Thanks in advance...
JAG
111 • @108 (by Adam Williamson on 2007-12-03 22:58:23 GMT from Canada)
Yes, that's a binary package count, and yes, you're right, a source package count is more accurate due to differing policies on things like libification. However, the original poster gave a *binary* count for PCLOS, so to give a fair comparison, I had to give a binary count for the other distros too (comparing source packages in MDV / SUSE / Debian to binary packages in PCLOS makes no sense). If someone would give a source package count for PCLOS, we could do that comparison. I would guess it'd be around 3000-4000.
112 • CLI & the Linux phobia (by dooooo on 2007-12-03 23:05:16 GMT from Jordan)
Most people don't convert to Linux simply because they don't have the guts to try it . Once you have your broadband connection available and the courage to try
a couple of live CDs , you'll never look back .
The best promotion tool for Linux distros IMHO is using screenshots . that way people will stop thinking that Linux is a DOS-like OS designed for geeks .
113 • grand waste of space (by truth machine on 2007-12-03 23:07:20 GMT from United States)
The value of a review is a function of the competence of the reviewer, and there's none to be seen here. Subjective opinions, apples and oranges, arbitrary choices, etc. There isn't even a mention that Sabayon is a source distro! It would be foolish to base any decision on this "grand overview".
114 • RE: 113 grand waste of space (by ladislav on 2007-12-03 23:15:07 GMT from Taiwan)
The reviewer spent several weeks testing distributions, then several days writing up his report.
Very unlike you whose total contribution to this web site and the Linux community was two minutes spent on bashing somebody's hard work.
If you can do better than him, what's stopping you?
115 • No subject (by anticapitalista on 2007-12-03 23:41:53 GMT from Greece)
#post 95 which says: When I read about a new program or application that I want to try out it is usually in the repositories already. One of the things you will find with Debian, Red Hat and Suse and Ubuntu is that there are often packages made for it by the developers of the program or application. Often those packages are in the repositories as well. The small distros like PClinuxOS, Mepis, etc. cannot hope to compete with that.
I won't answer about PClinuxOS, but about Mepis.
Mepis 7 (now rc1) uses the Debian repos (used to be the Ubuntu ones) and its own Mepis repos ie has access to over 22000 apps now and about 17000 when using Ubuntu repos.
So you are talking..........
My distro, antiX Lysistrata, Mepis7-based, gives the user access to all the Debian repos as you see fit to use. Default is /stable/testing, but there is nothing to stop you using unstable.
Now to something more important, something I mentioned in the previous DWW.
I think it would be a good if there was a review of lite-medium distros.
ie those that claim to work well on 128MB RAM. Recently there has been a flourish of such distros, not including the more established ones. A 'neutral' review would be very useful IMO.
116 • "Truth Machine" remarks.. (by Jerry on 2007-12-03 23:45:07 GMT from United States)
.. I agree with, and maybe writer of the article/reviews would agree, too: it would be foolish to base a decision on one article.
No "bashing" there.
Methinks an over reaction happened in the moment prior to post # 114 being typed. :O)
117 • review (by Andy Axnot on 2007-12-03 23:47:48 GMT from United States)
I think Baris did a very decent job, though I don't completely agree with his findings or opinions. That's really the problem, there is a lot that is subjective in the review as others have noted.
The idea that Gnome would be easier or more familiar to Windows users struck me as very strange. I think just the opposite. But who's right? I don't know.
It would be very nice to know where a reviewer is coming from, what his/her background and personal preferences are. I suspect Baris prefers Gnome. I admit to not caring for it.
Still, it was interesting to read.
Andy
118 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-04 00:12:03 GMT from United States)
"The reviewer spent several weeks testing distributions, then several days writing up his report."
So what? George W. Bush has spent nearly 8 years, being a very bad president.
"Very unlike you whose total contribution to this web site and the Linux community was two minutes spent on bashing somebody's hard work.
If you can do better than him, what's stopping you?"
These are ad hominem arguments ... such are fallacious.
119 • Linux Overviews. (by davecs on 2007-12-04 00:14:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
Generally OK. One criticism of you PCLinuxOS review that KDulcimer picked up on. In PCLinuxOS you add users through the PCLinuxOS Control Centre, or at installation time. You are not meant to use the KDE Tools for this.
Adding users either at install time, or through PCLOS Control Centre is simple and quick.
A lot of the other discussion that has gone on here is subjective. Some would argue that having a choice of 22,000 packages is better than a choice of 7,000 or so. But others may argue that a shorter but well-chosen selection of packages is less confusing for the newer user.
So go for whatever suits you. It's all Linux.
120 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-04 00:16:41 GMT from United States)
"Very unlike you whose total contribution to this web site and the Linux community was two minutes spent on bashing somebody's hard work."
You have no idea what my total contribution to the Linux community has been; I can assure you that it amounts to more than two minutes. In any case, you have done nothing to rebut my points. And what about the large amounts of very hard work that go into these distros that your reviewer knows nothing about? KDE is unintuitive? Sabayon is untested? These opinions are subjective and uninformed.
121 • problems with this review (by truth machine on 2007-12-04 00:28:06 GMT from United States)
Problems with this review start from the very beginning: "Amid the vast range of Linux distributions available today you will find varying complexity; from the simplistic Ubuntu to the much bigger and more system resource hungry distributions like Sabayon or openSUSE." In what way is Ubuntu, based on Debian, "simplistic"? How are Sabayon and openSUSE "more system resource hungry"? Which system resources? Distribution size isn't a system resource. (And an openSUSE network installation has a much smaller distribution size.) Sabayon, as a source distribution, is likely to be better optimized and thus use less CPU over the long term than ubuntu. But running gnome on Sabayon, openSUSE, or ubuntu uses basically the same kernel and the same desktop environment, and thus more or less the same systems resources, depending on compilation optimizations.
122 • reviews (by shrek on 2007-12-04 00:35:46 GMT from United States)
I thought Baris' review was fine. In my experience, I had different results..but thats me.
As far as getting users. I set up my girlfriend's laptop with SLED 10.(sp1). Dual booting with Windows XP. There are two things that she has to access as a college professor that the college makes as IE7 plugins only. Otherwise she uses Linux and loves it.
One converted user. And all I did was give her a working system and teach her how to use the update manager.
John
123 • @ 88 (by KDulcimer on 2007-12-04 00:36:59 GMT from United States)
"7500 is fairly thin compared to most major distros (Mandriva is over 16,000, SUSE is in the same ballpark, Debian is higher than that)."
That's why I just reported on the facts. PCLinuxOS has almost 7,500 packages in the official repos, including testing. Is that big? Small? Now that's subjective.
smaller != inferior
"Yes, bz2 is fairly slow and intensive on uncompression. gzip might be a good alternative; so might lzma."
I don't know what Tex uses for the PCLinuxOS repos, but I use genbasedir for the TinyMe repos to generate package lists. I don't see that it has an option to use any compression format other than bz2. :-( I just adjusted my script to use the fastest bz2 compression, though.
By the way, speaking of TinyMe, TinyMe fans (and fans of featherweight distros) can look for another test release of TinyMe coming in a couple more weeks. :-)
124 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-04 00:46:21 GMT from United States)
"That's why I just reported on the facts. PCLinuxOS has almost 7,500 packages in the official repos, including testing. Is that big? Small? Now that's subjective."
No, you didn't just report the facts; you included "but PCLinuxOS is somewhat light on additional packages" among a list of "errors" ... but it isn't an error.
125 • @ 111 (by KDulcimer on 2007-12-04 00:49:01 GMT from United States)
Very good guess, Adam. :-) PCLinuxOS has 3930 SRPMs on Ibiblio, including the testing section.
126 • @103, 106 (by [soŋtsɛn kampo] on 2007-12-04 00:55:04 GMT from Malaysia)
Linux is not widely used in this part of the world but this has little to do with whether it is "ready for the desktop" or not. Many of my colleagues have never heard of Linux and their primary reason for using Windows is that it happened to be pre-installed on their first (and subsequent) PCs. Most of those who have actually heard of Linux are just not willing to make the effort required to learn something new, and the concept of free/open-source software doesn't seem to convince anyone who is using pirated Windows software (which is both available and cheap).
127 • @ 125 (by KDulcimer on 2007-12-04 00:55:52 GMT from United States)
Proof that no matter what you say, someone is going to understand it differently than you meant it. :-P
"...but it isn't an error."
Point conceeded.
I should have changed the subject line of #64 before submitting. I wrote the subject line before the body. The body started out different from when I was finished writing, hence the slight discrepancy between the subject line and the contents.
128 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-04 01:11:09 GMT from United States)
"I should have changed the subject line of #64 before submitting. I wrote the subject line before the body."
The subject line clearly fits the content. You wrote "PCLinuxOS has almost 7,500 packages" as a counter to "PCLinuxOS is somewhat light on additional packages" but, as others have noted, it isn't a counter, it's confirmation.
129 • number of packages (by AH1 on 2007-12-04 01:14:54 GMT from United States)
I used PCLOS for several months (and again in the future), quite rarely was there a time when something I wanted wasn't in the repository. For an average home user, what I believe it is aimed for, I suspect the same would be true. If something isn't available, you can put in a request for it on the forums, and it "might" get included. If something is not available, then install it yourself, or use something different. That's called freedom of choice.
Being more of a tinkerer, I don't see myself sticking to the same one all the time. If I were recommending a distro to someone, I would recommend different ones based on the person, so it doesn't hurt to know what's out there. After another week of Sidux being my primary OS, I still like it....
Plenty of points can be nitpicked about EVERY distro, not one is perfect, so why bash when one thing or the other is bigger or better implemented in A vs. B? Not everyone has the same idea as to what actually is better, or which way to write/review/etc.
130 • re 128 (by EP on 2007-12-04 01:21:00 GMT from United States)
Just out of curiosity...how many apps do you have installed? Just my opinion but 7500 < 20000+, but in no way does 7500 == a weakness.
131 • 115 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 01:21:10 GMT from United States)
I strongly agree with your request for a review of lite distros. As I've said before, Linux now has a monopoly on older machines (anything less than 2 GB RAM). This is an area we should emphasize.
Did I read you right that I can use Debian repos for AntiX? Now that is truly awesome...didn't know that before. Now I really might use AntiX on older machines more often...it's an easier starting point than a minimal Debian install.
I'm sure AntiX will get a donation one of these months.
132 • 131 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 01:24:02 GMT from United States)
It matters if the apps you want are not there and are not recent versions.
One other thing is that projects will often have additional .deb packages available on their website to guarantee the latest version. That's something else you don't see with PCLOS.
Sorry to in any way suggest that PCLOS is imperfect ("If it's not in PCLinuxOS, that means nobody needs it")
133 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 01:31:22 GMT from United States)
"The subject line clearly fits the content. You wrote "PCLinuxOS has almost 7,500 packages" as a counter to "PCLinuxOS is somewhat light on additional packages" but, as others have noted, it isn't a counter, it's confirmation."
That's what you're /perceiving/. In a response to an opinion, I only gave a fact: "PCLinuxOS has almost 7,500 packages in its repositories." Whether I was confirming or contradicting is something you read into what I said. I gave absolutely no indicators either way in the immediate context. Is 7,500 a big number or a small number? That's entirely subjective.
Now, in the bigger context, you can see that I am giving a rebuttal. I do not believe 7,500 is a small number. That's probably >99% of the packages PCLinuxOS users need. In comparison, I feel safe saying 22,000 packages is probably >99% of the packages Debian users need. So the difference is...?
And again: smaller != inferior
My point is that while you can compare absolute numbers, numbers are only one part of the whole equation.
134 • PCLOS Fanatic (by EP on 2007-12-04 01:38:53 GMT from United States)
What apps are you missing not in recent version enough? I'm just curious if this is a perceived inadequacy of PCLinux, a real issue or the newest of 'complaints' about PCLinux. PCLinux is far from perfect, however after having used it I will say that it is VERY good. That being said, I am not currently running PCLinux, as I found another distribution that just seemed to 'fit me' a little bit better. It's all about choice. I still recommend it highly however.
All I'm saying is that for the person complaining that 7500 packages isn't enough, I wanted to know how many packages they had installed. The response was to ignore the question and to state that PCLinux packages are outdated, which is as far as I can tell yet another (relatively) baseless statement that I've heard frequently with PCLinux.
Here's what you get with PCLinux IMO. You get a distribution that is put together well, using Mandriva's control center. You also get a distribution that is maintained by a small number of people who work very hard and have done a terrific job. You get a distribution that is easy to use and has rightfully gained attention for that reason.
> If you've tested it, checked the repos and found it won't work for you due to missing packages, that's cool.
> If you've tried it, hated it that is cool too.
> If it just doesn't work right for you, then that's fine too.
> If you like your distro and don't feel the need to try, that's wonderful and an honest congratulations on that.
It would be great if it was all about choice and everyone made informed decisions and didn't just speak whatever the latest rant is about distro x, it just doesn't happen nearly enough. This is a great time for Linux, so many really good distros out there. It's not a bad time to be undecided that's for sure!
135 • Re. 131 (by Nanlee on 2007-12-04 02:35:17 GMT from Canada)
"Linux now has a monopoly on older machines (anything less than 2 GB RAM)"
What???? Which world are you in???
There are some people, including myself, test Linux on older PCs. But, that is only a very small fraction of computer users (<1% probably). For the vast majority of older PCs, if they are still in daily use, they run Windows. Linux has very little share there.
If you meant to say Linux runs better on older PCs, that is totally untrue. On my PII233/180Mb old PC, Windows XP runs better than its closest Linux challenger OpenSUSE and MCN. The rest of them, Debian, Vector, Slackware, Sabayon, Mint, Ubunto, DamSmall are not even close.
Wake up, stop dreaming. Open your eyes, the sky is much, much bigger than the opening of the well.
136 • The Grand Review; MEPIS Donation (by uncle mark on 2007-12-04 02:47:11 GMT from United States)
I disagree with the reviewer. Therefore, he sucks!
I agree with the donation to MEPIS. Therefore, DW rocks!
Any other commentary on either subject is ignorant drivel, and the authors of same should be banned from DW and Linux for life.
End of conversation.
137 • Comparison of Linux distributions (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 04:10:19 GMT from Australia)
Comparison of Linux distributions
Distribution Number of packages GUI installation procedure Default desktop environment or window manager
Debian Over 26,000 [10] Yes GNOME
Fedora Nearly 8000 Yes GNOME
Red Hat Enterprise Linux 2,208 (x86 Server) - 2,992 (x86_64 Desktop) Yes GNOME
sidux 18200 (about) Yes KDE
SUSE About 22000[12] Yes GNOME,KDE,Ximian Desktop (Enterprise Desktop/Server)
Ubuntu About 23,000[13] Yes GNOME
Kubuntu About 23,000 (same as Ubuntu) Yes KDE
Xubuntu About 23,000 (same as Ubuntu) Yes Xfce
Linux Mint 19,500 (about) Yes GNOME
Knoppix CD: 1000 (about)
DVD: 2600 (about) No KDE
Gentoo 12,000 (about)[11] Yes[4] none
BLAG Over 9000 Yes GNOME
Arch Linux About 6000 + 9000 in AUR (contrib) No none
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions
138 • Source Packages (by Texstar on 2007-12-04 04:10:44 GMT from United States)
PCLOS has 4156 source packages on our development server not including unstable or exp. ibiblio shows Fedora 8 with 4838. Im sure there are more elsewhere and Opensuse on ibiblio shows 4021 again that doesnt include 3rd party repos.
139 • Packages (by RC on 2007-12-04 04:51:25 GMT from United States)
While the number of packages is a factor, seems to me the real issue is does the distro have the packages I want. I might use a couple of dozen packages....why do I need 26,000? I don't see how that is a selling point. And from Texstars numbers it is looking pretty even anyway when you get down to actual programs. The distro fitting your computing style seems more important to me.
140 • Distro Reviews (by flebber on 2007-12-04 04:54:35 GMT from Australia)
I am not a rocket scientist nor a blind monkey and when I first used Fedora many years ago Fedora 4 had no linux experience and found it fairly easy to configure ( At this time 2004.6 Mepis was Today's Ubuntu).
So is Fedora getting harder to configure or are people getting stupider, Mp3codec buddy, easy firewall config and a graphical package manager. BOOOOO yeah god that sounds scary how much configuration I had better hide under the table.
I like Fedora but am no Fanboy as main my box has Ubuntu though I do wished it was a little more security concious by default - SeLinux - Firewall setup by default.
I am just confused at what is so hard!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers
PS with all the good reviews over at linux mint will have to give it a whirl.
141 • when comparing package "numbers" in distros (by Consideration required on 2007-12-04 05:55:17 GMT from Australia)
Re: [opensuse-project] Some questions about openSUSE
From: "Francis Giannaros"
Just a note as well that comparing physical amount of packages between
distributions in a typical way might not be so meaningful because of
the different packaging methods. openSUSE packaging did (particularly
in the past) tend to be a lot more modular.
For example in KDE3 while we have kdebase3, in Ubuntu/Debian they have
kdebase, kate, kfind, kcontrol, khelpcenter, kwrite, kwin packages etc
etc ...for the same one package that we would have.
So frequently people get the impression that Debian-based
distributions have thousands of thousands more applications because of
what Synaptic and Adept tells them (in contrast to YaST), but it's not
so clear-cut.
A more interesting comparison might be the amount of bin/* files.
Source packages is interesting too.
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2007-09/msg00074.html
142 • RE 115 • No subject (by anticapitalista (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 06:11:59 GMT from Canada)
I won't answer about PClinuxOS, but about Mepis.
Mepis 7 (now rc1) uses the Debian repos (used to be the Ubuntu ones) and its own Mepis repos ie has access to over 22000 apps now and about 17000 when using Ubuntu repos.
True, Sidux uses Debian repositories too. There are a few distro's that use their mother distro's repositories. So yes, some small distro's can compare to the larger distro's for package availablility. I was wrong about Mepis, obviously, but generally it is true that the smaller distro's don't have the repositories that the more established distro's have.
On another note. Some comments say that even x thousand applications is more than anyone needs so a large repository has no value. I guess if we all use the same browser, the same text editor and the same media player we could all just use windows, couldn't we? On my desktop I like to try out different software from time to time. That's why I enjoy a large repository.
On my servers I run Debian with no desktop or X server, still I can choose from several different virtualization solutions, several web servers, several SMTP servers, IMAP, database, etc, etc, etc. If anyone finds a distro that gives them everything they want without having to choose I'm happy for them.
I find a large assortment of packages to choose from an asset. That's for my needs. If I was trying to recycle a whole bunch of P133's I would think a lot differently.
143 • RE: 135 You got to be kidding!!! (by IMQ on 2007-12-04 06:16:32 GMT from United States)
XP run faster than Damn Small (You did mean to write Damn Small, didn't you?) on a PII233/180Mb PC?
Impossible!
144 • On package counts in general (by Adam Williamson on 2007-12-04 06:17:17 GMT from Canada)
Of course the point is not that 7,500 packages is 'not enough' (very few people will have that many packages on their system). It's just that counting packages gives you a rough indication of *how likely* a distro is to have the packages you use. A distro with 25,000 packages, all other things being equal, is rather more likely to have all the software you regularly use packaged than a distro with 5,000 packages.
However, it's not a great metric. It does have obvious problems. For instance, a lot of the stuff PCLOS doesn't have compared to Mandriva is server-related stuff. Which is fine, because PCLOS is specifically a desktop distro. You don't run it on servers. So even though MDV has maybe twice as many packages as PCLOS, maybe a third of those extra packages are server-related and PCLOS users wouldn't want 'em anyway.
It also doesn't consider how good the packages are. A package which hasn't been updated in years isn't that much use, it likely doesn't even work any more. A package of, say, Wordpress which just dumps all the files in an RPM isn't really any more use than a tarball, but a package which conforms to consistent distro policy for webapps is valuable. (This is a real life example, more or less; the Mandriva package for roundcubemail used to be basically a dump of the roundcubemail tarball, I improved it to actually respect the MDV webapps policy, which gives it several advantages over the tarball. But that's not an improvement you find in a package count.)
Basically, package count isn't a hugely useful metric. As far as 'does it have the apps I want' goes, the table here on Distrowatch is probably slightly more useful. Of course, you could just look yourself, it's not terribly hard. As far as how good the packages are goes, you really have to just look for yourself.
145 • RE 135 • Re. 131 (by Nanlee (by john frey on 2007-12-04 06:25:33 GMT from Canada)
First off, I want to take credit for comment 142. Forgot to enter the info.
"On my PII233/180Mb old PC, Windows XP runs better than its closest Linux challenger OpenSUSE and MCN. The rest of them, Debian, Vector, Slackware, Sabayon, Mint, Ubunto, DamSmall are not even close."
Now that is a subjective statement. I have tried Damn Small on a number of older computers and was amazed at how well it ran. Vector too, not as fast but nice integration and management features. I have also used window XP on less than 512 MB ram and was amazed at how poorly it ran. Obviously by "runs better" you don't mean faster and more stable if you think that XP on that setup is better than Damn Small or Vector. Now that I think of it, you must have tweaked and removed a lot of the default services on XP to make it run acceptably. I still don't believe for a minute that it is faster than Damn Small.
I've never been masochistic enough to try out a full featured distro like OpenSUSE on something that old. I should try it sometime just for fun.
146 • Distro review (by m clark on 2007-12-04 06:52:24 GMT from United States)
I have tried hard drive installs on all of these and I agree that Mint 4.0 is the easiest and generally most trouble free of all . I don't understand why it is so much easier than Ubuntu since it derives from Ubuntu but it is. For me anyway. From the list however, I miss Sidux 4 And Debien as well as Zenwalk.
147 • This site is not objective ! (by A future BSD user ! on 2007-12-04 07:07:53 GMT from Canada)
Distro review = Ladislav
Ladislav = Suse
Suse = Microsoft$
Microsoft$ = Freespire$
Freespire$ = Ubuntu
Fedora = enemy of suse (aka Redhat$ vs Novell$)
No Debian , Slackware, Mandriva, here ?
Stop making lobbying ladislav and be objective as open source could be !
At this time, this site will not be a reference for me anymore !
148 • Distro reviews (by Kanwar on 2007-12-04 07:09:28 GMT from Australia)
You definitely seem more comfortable with GNOME, so PCLinuxOS did not score more than Ubuntu or Mint. Having tried all of the distros reviewed and being mainly a KDE user I find GNOME too cumbersome to work beyond 5-10 minutes.
To each his own but PCLOS should have got more marks. I haven't found a software package that is not available in PCLOS repos. A sample list would be useful!
Otherwise, a good list of distros reviewed.
149 • Ce site n'est pas objectif ! (by Un futur utilisateur BSD ! on 2007-12-04 07:11:01 GMT from Canada)
Distro review = Ladislav
Ladislav = Suse
Suse = Microsoft$
Microsoft$ = Freespire$
Freespire$ = Ubuntu
Fedora = enemie de suse (aka Redhat$ vs Novell$)
Pas de Debian , Slackware, Mandriva, ici ?
Arrette de faire du "lobbying" ladislav et sois objectif comme le devrais etre le monde du libre (open-source).
A partir d'aujourdh'hui, ce site n'est plus une reference pour moi, et cela a jamais !
150 • Running a Linux distro off a USB thumbdrive (by rglk on 2007-12-04 07:16:35 GMT from United States)
I installed Ubuntu 7.10 on a 2 GB thumbdrive (SONY Micro Vault Tiny) that is the size of a small postage stamp and has less substance than a US 25c coin. I followed the procedure worked out by the folks from pendrivelinux, see
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/2007/09/28/usb-ubuntu-710-gutsy-gibbon-install/
This works very well. Ubuntu runs as fast off the thumbdrive as if installed on a HDD, and if you boot it with the "Start Ubuntu in USB persistent mode" option, all changes (application configuration changes and all user-generated files as well as any newly installed programs or system files) will be automatically saved to the thumbdrive and loaded again on the next reboot.
The thumbdrive can be plugged into any Intel i386 based system (that should include even Intel Mac's) that is capable of booting from USB devices, and you should be able to run Ubuntu off it.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Ubuntu install procedure can be used for Linux Mint 4.0 as well. E.g. some time ago I installed Linux Mint 2.0 or 3.0 on a thumbdrive to be run in Windows XP via Qemu, following the pendrivelinux instructions for the parent Ubuntu distribution. That worked perfectly, with minimal adaptation. Using that install method you can run Linux Mint or Ubuntu from within Windows XP or Vista without rebooting. Just plug in the thumbdrive while you're in Windows and run an .exe file which starts up Qemu which then brings up Linux.
The bottom line is: it's worth checking out the pendrivelinux website. They provide easy to implement instructions for putting Ubuntu, Debian, PCLinuxOS, Knoppix, Slax, DSL, etc. etc. on thumbdrives and either directly booting into these distros or running them in Qemu from within Windows XP or Vista.
This way of running Linux is useful if one wants to do some serious or reckless playing around with Linux that one wouldn't want to do on one's bread and butter Linux installation, as it might break that installation.
151 • Review (by john on 2007-12-04 08:34:56 GMT from Germany)
Mandriva is missing and yes, it would have "won" this comparision (if someone can win at all here). Hands down. I gave Ubuntu a shot at my laptop and it failed to install three times and two times, borked the partition table. How can a distro with such a big flaw get such a good rating for its installer?
Mandrivas installer is way better and doesn't f''' up your partitions. If you want a relatively trouble-free Linux system, go for Mandriva. Ubuntu is much overhyped. (Speaking of experience and I have used almost every distro from the DW Top 20 for several months/years)
152 • bashing the reviews? please stop that (by kanishka on 2007-12-04 09:22:37 GMT from Italy)
I'm just amazed at the number of post that bash the work Baris has done. That's so childish. He clearly stated that the reviews were his personal impressions, based on the distro he installed. So it's completely pointless to say "your ratings are ridiculous" and all that; he didn't mean the ratings to be carved in stone! Is it so difficult to understand?
Take the reviews as an interesting report of his experiences, well written and fair (my opinion), and compare it with your experience; then, you could integrate his reviews with your opinions, without any need to say "you are Ubuntu-biased" and worse.
Please.
153 • RE: 95 (by Landor on 2007-12-04 09:58:53 GMT from Canada)
"While I agree that some of the packages in the largest repos may be useless to many a large repository also can also include MANY new and up to date programs. Now that is a selling point."
You might want to work on your reasoning there because without the actual numbers (which would say the same for my stance of course :) ) you can't actually "factually" commit to it being a useful selling point. :P
"Also... "I have to point out a simple fact. How many of those packages are really out of date, and how many of them are dead-in-the-water probjects?" You might want to work on your reasoning there. You are not pointing out a fact but asking a question, presumably a rhetorical question, expecting the reader to infer something. No facts in that sentence at all"
A question can easily be laced with facts, and, or the same goes for a comment, which can also just be laced with "diversion" :) Which while I'm on the subject, both mine and yours show it as such. Mine as the former of course :)
I have to say I'm starting to enjoy the Rick Mercer report. I was rollin' watching him as he spent the day with Chretien. Try to find that kind've humour in say a larger country :)
Back to packages though. I finally installed a great game that my son has been prodding me to try out since I'm a simulator fan, Danger from the Deep. If anyone's repo's don't have this game and they have a decent card to support, though still fairly new, it's a great game with a lot of plans and some very decent game play and it's well worth the effort to manually install it, if need be. OSS really has some amazing apps, games, that would bring many over to the fold if they knew they were here.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
(btw, is it just me or is the comments section getting on the weird side, a newsletter or two ago we had a dude compare all this to the borg, this week a dude is talking about subverise plots like a bad episode of Pinky and The Brain, also the truth machine is back in action, name says it alone, and people actually find "Keep your stick on the ice..." a problem? lol)
154 • The infamous CLI RE 75 , 99 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 10:10:04 GMT from France)
"It is all too easy to make a mistake typing in commands which may appear to have no logical structure(to the beginner)
The one thing that I as a newbie fear the most is doing something which crashes my computer and which I have: A, no idea what i did and :B, no knowledge of how to correct my error.
AND no web access for information"
A)f you are not logged at root, you wonot do anything crashing your computer.
B) Normally, any apps are shipped with a man or an info, you can read (no need for IT connection)
"Why should someone wasting time to learn and remember those 20 some commands? "
Because reading ~100 pages is not that complicated in the civilized world (please, do not tell me that your 173 yrs old mother cannot, nor the Pope, nor ...)
Because it is nort a waste of time if one is interested in having easy to port, reproducible apps. (they work on many Unixen, you know, and even on Cygwin : it helps, for massive downloads.)
What would be the great free world (i do not write linux) whithout CLI? and what had achieved GNU/linux without CLI bashers? It woud be exactly the same, or perhaps even better, IMO.....
155 • RE 152 "I'm just amazed at the number of post that bash the work Baris has done. (by dbrion on 2007-12-04 10:25:18 GMT from France)
I am not, because some OBVIOUS features were "forgotten":
* Native language recognition . I wonot cry for my xx mother to come, but she cannot use English.... as a vast majority does.
* Power management, especially on laptops /it helps, you know/; AFAIK, the main contributors (at least on the distro side) were OSuze and the infamous, commercial, PClos clone, Mandriva.
Putting the temperature after doing about the same tasks, or seeing how long a PC battery takes to starve (and whether there is nice recovery) would not take weeks of testing and hours of writing...
* long term stability (if one claims the right to write subjective ratings, why not?)
Thanks, Landor and Truth machine for reminding some sound principles.
156 • #151 Borking Partitions (by Glenn on 2007-12-04 12:05:26 GMT from Canada)
Hi John.
Reading your post brought to mind the many times I also have borked the partition table. In one case, I installed a distro and my partition table got borked. I noted it in the Distro's forum and described the circumstances. I had had a bit of problem with my system AMD64 Gigabyte SLI MB, SATAII, ATI Radeon but did not associate it with the partition table. Eventually I analysed my system and found the Radeon Card had become defective so i replaced it... I still had problems with my Partition table. Finally, I found the cause. My On/Off switch was shorting against the Case intermittently. I replaced the case and voila, no more problems. I updated the forum entry and closed it with hardware error.
I found out after much experience of borking partition tables some of the following things I now look out for.
1. If the Bios has an antivirus, turn it off. It may interfere with the code when repartitioning. I found this info in a forum and it made sense to me
2. Take the time to verify the ISO burn. That has caused me problems when I get a bad burn.
3. Verify the checksum.
4. Make sure the recording surface of the CD/DVD is really clean. Even a smudge will cause some erratic behavior. This applies to when you are burning it or reading it. I have run into this a few times. If you see scratches then it is best if you don't use that one , you may save a borked Partition table or malfunctioning software.
5. I always use a standalone CD to do my partitioning such as GPARTED. I no longer rely on the installer to do my partitioning. That is personal but i must confess i have been unimpressed with some Distros method of re-mapping the Hard-drive. Some are great I am sure. I am now paranoid and stick with what I am sure of
6. Always keep alert for the option to place the boot manager on the Root partition or the MBR. I've been caught a few times and had to use grub-install or supergrub to fix it back. Some distros do not make the choice too obvious.
Then I always watch out for Glenns fingers. The biggest cause of a lot of my problems. :p
A big thank you to the developers of System Rescue and Supergrub. Lilo also but I find LILO much easier to fix.
Topic switch.
I appreciate your comment about Mandriva however it installed nicely on my TP60 laptop and my ASUS AMD64 systems both with Radeons. It would not install on my Gigabyte until I had to interrupt the boot and manually set the XORG and turn ACPI off. This system has a Radeon HD2600 XT.. Once Installed I ended up with a Kernel Panic when trying to boot. Ubuntu installed on all three systems although I had to use ACPI=OFF and remove the SPASH settings from the Boot for 1 system.
Thanks for your post John, it enabled me to launch this one where I can touch on problems that we both have experienced.
I am sure someone will fault my personal observations so flame away boys. I'll use the heat to roast coffee beans with.
Glenn
157 • CLI etc (by simon on 2007-12-04 12:54:26 GMT from New Zealand)
hmmm. there are a couple of arguments that windows-reared linux users often make, both of which can be annoying. one is the old "i just want to get stuff done, i don't want to be a guru" line as an excuse for an aversion to shell commands. this is roughly the same kind of argument as "i'm not going to waste hours and hours of my time learning to touch-type". if you really are the mythical grandmother we keep hearing so much about who just wants to write one e-mail every other saturday, fine, your argument makes perfect sense. but if you actually use your computer for more than a few minutes each day (as you probably do if you're posting on distrowatch) then this "learning new stuff takes too much time/effort" reasoning doesn't cut it. a few hours learning to touch-type will save you hundreds of hours of ridiculous look-at-the-keyboard typing. similarly, a small investment of time in learning basic unix cli tools is well worth it unless you're the aforementioned grandmother. sometimes the way that seems easiest (because it involves the least learning of new skills) isn't actually the easiest way to do something.
the other annoying (and related) line is the old, "linux had better wake up to the real world of non-geeks and get more windows-like if it wants to win over the windows masses". i agree that more users of free software is generally a good thing, and i applaud distros like ubuntu that do such a good job of making the windows to linux transition an easy one--but the implication that linux "ought" to go this way or that distros "should" be newbie-friendly is just silly. it's like saying all our books ought to be aimed at people who are just learning english. some books have certain things they want to say and they're not going to compromise that by trying to word things so that someone who started learning english last month can understand them. similarly, some distros aim to be clean and stable (or resource efficient, or fast, or whatever) and aren't going to compromise that by piling on layers of noob-soothing windows-imitation.
sure, it's elitist and stupid to claim that a book (or movie or song or whatever) is trash because it's popular and that some other book is somehow better purely because it's obscure...but it's no less stupid to claim that popularity = quality. a distro isn't somehow superior because it's only used by a handful of strange-smelling bearded caffeine junkies, but neither is it somehow superior because it has windows users flocking to it like flies to a turd. anyway, in at least one respect it actually is better for an os to be relatively obscure: it makes it that much more secure. if it ever gets to the point where the vast majority of pc's are running linux, i'll probably switch to another os, just so that all the viruses, malware, script kiddies and other scumbags that pass me by now will do so again.
none of this has much to do with baris's review, but huge doses of caffeine will produce rants like this in the wee hours of the morning (i guess they also help with beard growth and smelling strange).
158 • RE 155 (by kanishka on 2007-12-04 12:54:30 GMT from Italy)
Dbrion, your post is NOT a bash, it just points out some shortcomings in the review; I find it perfectly acceptable. I wasn't referring to such kind of posts.
159 • Re 157 CLI etc (by Glenn on 2007-12-04 13:03:09 GMT from Canada)
Hi Simon.
I am sitting here not bearded but moustached, smelling strange, and waking up with coffee so your post makes good sense to me. Well, you elitist paragraph i could have bypassed but I liked the post. Nice points.
Glenn
160 • PCLOS is great, but... (by Rad on 2007-12-04 13:14:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
I am missing scummvm in it. Besides that - it IS a distribution-hopper stopper!
161 • Mint, Vixta, Klikit and ArtistX (by Soloact on 2007-12-04 13:23:45 GMT from United States)
I already mentioned that I have Klikit on my computer, so, what I did was take ArtistX (a beautiful distro IMHO), and added it to the more up-to-date Klikit (based on Kubuntu). No problems there, except for a couple of slightly different program versions. Just took awhile, going package by package on the list.
Linux Mint, installed nicely on my several-years-out-of-date laptop, but since I personally prefer KDE over Gnome, I installed KDE and made it the default, everything still works just fine, and looks the way I want it to look.
Vixta.org is beautiful as far as looks and feel. Where I was "lost" on a friend's MSVista machine, Vixta.org is very comfortable to use. I hope it wins converts from MS.
I'm still deciding what to install on a pico-itx pc. Mint (KDE added) or Klikit are now leading the decision pack, with Vixta.org slightly trailing. Now if I could only get that touchscreen to work...still experimenting with it.
Have a great today everyone!
162 • antiX-M7 and antiX-base (by anticapitalista on 2007-12-04 13:32:57 GMT from Greece)
#131
Did I read you right that I can use Debian repos for AntiX? Now that is truly awesome...didn't know that before. Now I really might use AntiX on older machines more often...it's an easier starting point than a minimal Debian install.
Yes you did, if you sue antiX-M7 Lysistrata. BUT at the moment it uses as 686 kernel, so k5/k6 will not boot.
There is also an antiX-base.iso available. (178MB) See the antiX site for details.
163 • re 152 (by flebber on 2007-12-04 13:40:57 GMT from Australia)
" He clearly stated that the reviews were his personal impressions "
Good I am glad he did, but when we find his personal impressions unequal and without little basis we are free to air our personal impressions that this is the case.
Stating our impresssions and feelings I would never consider childish. quite clearly regardless of "any final score-winner or loser" which in my book equals "who cares" some of us would like to see better definition and more clarity in reviews provided.
Re: package count whilst the number of packages reflects the possible availability of the package I/you may want to use does it really reflect the quality and security of the package provided ?
164 • No subject (by Landor-h8ter on 2007-12-04 13:41:42 GMT from Australia)
Comment deleted (offensive).
165 • Do us a favor and go away, we dont need your opinions... (by Oh-Landor-sux-department on 2007-12-04 13:53:42 GMT from Australia)
My opinion is gold. I always right full concise stories, always very well written and punctuated, with perfect argumentation, and I always top it off with my killer one-liner... yes my name is Landor... Write that name down... Btw, I have a son who likes gentoo.... Did I mention my opinion is gold? Jesus I'm so irritating in so many levels without even trying... How is that for a distrohopper?
Please ladislav do not delete this post... I have been reading distrowatch for 3 years, and this guy really pisses me off... If anybody here feels like me, please voice your opinion...
166 • LinuxMint Fedora (by Craig on 2007-12-04 13:58:24 GMT from United States)
I don't know whether it's been said or not.....but I wish Clem would use his /talent/time to make a real nice KDE version of Mint. Kubuntu is NOT Ubuntu with a KDE face. It's just Cinderella scrubbing the floors while the other sisters go to the Ball. I am not interested in a Fedora Mint, but a fully developed KDE version of Ubuntu with the Mint extras would interest me highly. Waddayathink?
Keep the ice off your "stick".
167 • RE: 149 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 14:05:01 GMT from United States)
That has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever read on the internets, that is even worse than what passes for journalism over at certain sourceforge inc sites.
WRT the review/comparison - Nice work, though it should have at least included which configurations were used or explained if they were consistent across all reviewing platforms or just used the distro's defaults.
Also to the people that are whining about the number of packages in a particular distro's repository, you have access to the source (for most programs), you have access to the tools used to create packages for your distro, stop whining and learn to use them. Then you don't have to worry about it not being in a repository, apart from tracking bug fixes and security updates yourself, of course. ;-)
168 • A grand overview of ... PCLinuxOS (by rm42 on 2007-12-04 14:53:59 GMT from United States)
Talking about PCLinuxOS he writes:
"KDE is the default desktop supplied with PCLinuxOS. This takes a little longer to get used to than GNOME in my opinion."
He should have qualified that by saying that it takes a little longer to get used to than GNOME *for a person used to using GNOME*. As a person used to KDE, I found that using Ubuntu took me longer to do several tasks than it would have using PCLinuxOS, and that was in part because I did not know where or how things were done in GNOME. (Enabling 3D effects, opening a file manager with root privileges, renaming files or folders in a File Save/Open dialog box, etc.).
He then writes:
"Once you get over the KDE quirks, navigating your way around the system is relatively straightforward ..."
However, he fails to mention what any of those quirks are. I think that is a little unfair.
169 • Your comment Ladislav did surprise me (by KimTjik on 2007-12-04 14:58:59 GMT from Sweden)
"The reviewer spent several weeks testing distributions, then several days writing up his report.
Very unlike you whose total contribution to this web site and the Linux community was two minutes spent on bashing somebody's hard work.
If you can do better than him, what's stopping you?"
DistroWatch has gained a portion of fame. It's not uncommon to see references to DistroWatch on other sites. This is proof of your and your associates good work. This success however does add pressure to keep an even higher standard of quality articles.
Whatever is written on DWW it will have a big impact. Hence you can't seriously mean that "if you can do better than him, what's stopping you?" in the sense that whoever volunteers to write you'll publish it? I don't think so. DWW is too important to simply be a reward for hard work, which wouldn't be fair to DistroWatch, to the author of some article and to the readers.
With your experience it would have been possible to avoid some pitfalls; in some cases not more than a slightly more modest wording. Who ever you allow to publish an article on DWW is pushed out in the public for scrutiny. By your own decision Ladislav did you put Baris in this difficult situation. That's the harsh reality of fame and the obvious goal of being a voice in the world of Linux and BSD.
"truth machine" might not be a smooth talker tickling our ears, but he made valid remarks.
170 • review of distro speed (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 15:18:40 GMT from Canada)
You don't give more than 8 for speed in your rating. I agree with that, but you should also review distributions that are reputed for their speed, i.e Arch, Gentoo, etc.
171 • Re:157 (by octathlon on 2007-12-04 15:18:57 GMT from United States)
//
the other annoying (and related) line is the old, "linux had better wake up to the real world of non-geeks and get more windows-like if it wants to win over the windows masses". i agree that more users of free software is generally a good thing, and i applaud distros like ubuntu that do such a good job of making the windows to linux transition an easy one--but the implication that linux "ought" to go this way or that distros "should" be newbie-friendly is just silly. it's like saying all our books ought to be aimed at people who are just learning english. some books have certain things they want to say and they're not going to compromise that by trying to word things so that someone who started learning english last month can understand them. similarly, some distros aim to be clean and stable (or resource efficient, or fast, or whatever) and aren't going to compromise that by piling on layers of noob-soothing windows-imitation.
//
Well said, Simon! so I repeated it.
There are so many articles by anti-Linux snobs who spell out all the reasons why Linux is a failure for not fitting *their* definition of what it should be, as if the only goal of all Linux should be to convert Windows users to it! There is a place for desktop distros with that goal, but that is only one part of the whole Linux picture.
172 • RE: 165 (by Landor on 2007-12-04 15:51:01 GMT from Canada)
I agree with you 100%!
It's far better to be a hater of someone who actually contributes something and not contribute ourselves, except for stating the fact that we hate someone contributing!
Down with the contributors!
Don't Keep your hate on the ice...
Landor
173 • About the number of packages per distro (by IMQ on 2007-12-04 15:54:18 GMT from United States)
The only things I get from just looking at the shear number of available packages in any given distro are:
1. It may have the package I want
2. It may have lots of people contribute
In short, it may have what I need on a desktop.
But the number of packages says nothing about the quality of the packages at all. The only way to find out how well they are made is to use them.
On a personal note, PCLinuxOS repository contains the majority of the packages that I want, so it is quite a usable desktop for me.
174 • Re #157 (by roadie on 2007-12-04 16:00:29 GMT from Canada)
simon,
Your post has some very good points. I don't agree with the "elitist" part though.
I think that's another myth thats being perpetuated as well as the one that that alludes to a CLI user being hunched over his/her keyboard, hacking into some high level government operation and attempting world domination or setting off the nukes and so forth. Hollywood has done well at keeping that one alive.
I've been a CLI user since I started using Linux, I don't feel that I'm "elitist" in any way. Nor do I think you have to develop skill in touch typing, sure it will speed things up but I do fine as a hunt and peck typer. I am by no means a "power user" either.
To me, the real power and versatility of the CLI lies in the fact that you have a better understanding of how the system works and therefore better control over it. It's also great for debugging, I've seen countless posts in forums concerning apps that don't start, the lil icon disappears from the taskbar. Running the same app from a CLI will quite often give error messages. You know all this, I post for the benefit of GUI users.
It's very true, (sadly) that the vast majority of Linux users want only to sit down at their boxen and have things "just work". It would be peachy indeed if that was the case but it's not, nor will it ever be. There is always new hardware and software that will prevent that. The only way to achieve that is to have very standardized hardware and basically one OS. We've all seen what happens with that scenario.
Linux will suffer from the same thing if it ever becomes "mainstream", the only reason the script kiddies don't go after it now is the fact that there are so many "point and click" and "ease of use" boxes running out there.
And concerning Linux security, consider the number of distro's that default to a root login, I have no idea how many do but I have seen and used quite a few. I believe it's an attempt by the builder to make the system easier to use by newbee's and thats all well and good, but it opens the door very wide to hackers. It also allows a new user to trash his/her partitions, wipe out important info, screw things up real good. Most people are not real good at reading man pages.
roadie
175 • What might stop a newbie from using Mandriva 2 hours after installation ? (by dooooo on 2007-12-04 16:15:15 GMT from Jordan)
Mandriva was the 1st distro that I could use successfully on my desktop , but I can't see it improving at some points that every user might have noticed .
It's little things that make the difference and the work that pays attention to every detail is the one deserves to be categorized under "professional" .
The points that I'm going to mention are only examples of what might stop a newbie from using Mandriva 2 hours after installation / based on personal experience with Mandriva 2007.0 2007.1 and 2008 / :
1- Important packages to everyone are not available in the repos (example : unrar is not available although there is a non-free repo available and the ONE CDs include proprietary drivers and codecs )
2 - Important libs IMHO are not available in the repos (example : libxvidcore4 , liblame ) , that means many useful apps are missing or they are not built to get the best functionality out of it ( example : compare the functionality of Avidemux under Mandriva and under PCLOS)* .
3- The boot loader can't detect other distros installed automatically (It detects Windows) .
Those are only examples of issues that an experienced user can easily work around but they are definitely a show stopper to a newbie .
* I have to say that I really appropriate the way PCLOS DEVs build their binary packages to get the best functionality and hardware support possible (I'm a Debian user at the moment ) .
176 • Re #165 and other Landor haters. (by roadie on 2007-12-04 16:17:15 GMT from Canada)
Really, if Landor and his stick piss you off that much, you need help. Professional help. It's just a stick. Take a walk, get away from your boxen. Maybe Landor likes hockey.
On another note, something that kinda pisses me off, is anonymous posting.
I mean, if you want to post here and share wisdom, solve a problem for someone, or just shoot your mouth off, at least have the balls to stand up with a name on your post. I'm goin for a walk now.
And yes, I do anticipate your anonymous replies.
roadie
177 • Re. 143, 145 (by Nanlee on 2007-12-04 16:19:36 GMT from Canada)
First of all, I want to clarify. When I said "run better", I did mean run FASTER. It runs faster than DSL. Not only it run faster but also automatically supported all the hardware correctly. The only Linux distro that can support all the hardware and run another application at a reasonable speed while playing MP3 files was Open SUSE. MCN was fast, but it can't even find my sound card, not to mention supporting it. The result was as shocking to me as it appears to you. But that was what I got.
Secondly, just because your results were different from mine, doesn't mean my or your opinion was subjective. They are inclusive or just an isolated case. Subjective means more of a personal opinion. If an application took 30 sec. to start on my PC and 20 sec. on your PC, they both are objective observations. Meaning, they are both facts. They are different facts, obtained on different PC with different configurations. And, that is normal. In my comments, I clearly stated "On my PII233/180Mb old PC", so that you know the results were only applicable to my specific configuration. Fare?
Thirdly, and most importantly, the key message in my comments was the opposition to the statement of "Linux now has a monopoly on older machines (anything less than 2 GB RAM)" made by #131. As far as I know (subjectively), Linux has anything BUT monopoly on any type of PCs. What is your subjective opinion or you have some facts to say otherwise?
178 • Hardy Heron (by Khorn Hole on 2007-12-04 16:29:50 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu? Hardy Heron?
I have been an avid Archlinux user for the past 6 months. I Installed the "Gutsty Gibbon" on an IBM Thinkpad T42 and it is the worst release Ubuntu has released in my opinion. I can only hope their next LTS release can match that of "Dapper Drake", 'cause "Gutsy" sucks.
179 • QU 175 : What is your definition of importance? (by dbrion on 2007-12-04 16:32:31 GMT from France)
"1- Important packages to everyone are not available in the repos (example : unrar "....
If a very minor unarchiver lacks, will it change the angular velocity of the Earth?
Will it lead to mental disorders?
Will one just go to "http://www.gold-software.com/download8829 .html" and compile it/ have friends compiling it (that the way it goes for beginners).
I have a Mandriva 2006, and I used ONCE unrar; because I needed it ONCE!: either it was there, or I installed it without any suffering..sorry, but for this kind of important stuff, what is the matter?
180 • Re #177 (by Glenn on 2007-12-04 16:43:09 GMT from Canada)
Hi
I have 2 PII 600mz, 256mb ram, asus mb systems.. Large Linux distro runs about he same response as Windows xp. i.e. not great but it works.
Debian server runs great on them now.
Toshiba Satellite (1998 vintage) same thing Win2000 although Mint on it runs a bit better. 128mb ram, 10gb hdd, 700mz
TP60 2GB RAM 1.5 mz Windows xp & Linux Mint,,,, Mint runs a bit better but not by that much. Then again i did not tweak either of them.
Gigabyte AMD 64MB 1 gb ram, Windowsxp 32 / Large Linux distro , Linux has the edge.
Asus AMD64 2gb ram, 2gz Linux better but not by a wide margin and bot systems are untweaked.
Thinkpad 760, Windows XP wont run, Freespire does. Win98 better.
On ALL above systems Puppy beats the hell out of them all by far. It runs fast.
Look at the internet transmission. Linux certainly seems to pump more KBS than Windows. Ok, that is open to all sorts of arguments but in my experience that is true.
I disagree that old systems(not with your post but a previous one) are categorized with less than 2gb ram. I have 1 gb on a new system. if i need more to play games, video editing etc. then I'll get more .
As you said so will I.. These observations are based on my systems and the work I do with them.
I did not try all linux distros so I cannot speak for all Linux's.
I do have a life to live.. :p
Glenn
181 • RE 177 I'm curious, would you like to publish some numbers? (by KimTjik on 2007-12-04 16:44:53 GMT from Sweden)
Don't take this as an argument, because it's not. It's just that I as a hobby once experimented with making extremely slim modded XP installations (like most I used nLite and have had some success on getting 200 - 250 MB install CD:s to work well). 180MB of RAM - I suppose it's either 160 or 192 though - is quite alright. The trouble I encounter when trying something like that is: no programs except Microsoft's own suit of Office programs and the few apps you get work fast enough, everything else takes forever.
The good thing about PII based system is that they're old enough to mean that there's not awfully much hardware to support. DSL though has unfortunately dropped some support of hardware in its attempt to keep it small, hence other distributions might give better result.
In my own experience Arch is perfect for a task like this - if you're comfortable with its nature - and PII qualifies as a i686 architecture. Since I've failed completely in archiving what you manage to do, please give me some hints about how you did it (and for the rest of you: don't through stones at me for being curious about Microsoft stuff! I'm still 90 % pure Linux driven).
182 • where is debian? (by ema on 2007-12-04 16:54:50 GMT from Italy)
I'm quite surprise not to see any other distro on review.
It seems a very restricted view not considering less popular ones which can be really interesting in terms of easy installation(10 minutes),speed,packages,distro upgrades..
I definetely say SIDUX overall even not including Gnome for sid repo problems
Ciao
Ema
183 • It seems KDE users never tried the nautilus extras (by dooooo on 2007-12-04 17:03:51 GMT from Jordan)
#61
"Ease of use: With KDE and Konqueror file management and both root and su, you are able to right click and get an Action menu that will let you "open as root", "edit as root" and "open a folder in the Terminal" and you have the magic of "'Mepis Tools" too, talk about ease of use. :) "
#168
"As a person used to KDE, I found that using Ubuntu took me longer to do several tasks than it would have using PCLinuxOS, and that was in part because I did not know where or how things were done in GNOME. (Enabling 3D effects, opening a file manager with root privileges, renaming files or folders in a File Save/Open dialog box, etc.)."
Well , I would like to introduce you to a couple of nautilus packages :
1- nautilus-gksu :
(privilege granting extension for nautilus using gksu)
The gksu extension for nautilus allows you to open files with
administration privileges using the context menu when browsing your
files with nautilus.
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/3224/screenshotetcfilebrowseas7.png
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8250/screenshotaptfilebrowseqa3.png
2- nautilus-open-terminal:
(nautilus plugin for opening terminals in arbitrary local paths)
nautilus-open-terminal is a proof-of-concept Nautilus extension
which allows you to open a terminal in arbitrary local folders.
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/5559/screenshotaptfilebrowsegm6.png
184 • Distro "Grand Overview" (by Matt Smith on 2007-12-04 17:04:16 GMT from United States)
I wish Mandriva was included in the analysis. I give every Top 10 distro a ride when new versions are released, and then use the winner until it's unseated by a subsequent, better distro. That said, I've found Mandriva 2008 to be the clear winner over all distros vetted by the author, in all categories. I've tried all, but keep coming back to 'Driva 2008. Ease of use and configuration, utilities, speed--you name it--this distro is tops at the moment, and likely will be on my PC for some time. It is a very robust and thoughtfully laid-out system.
185 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 17:08:27 GMT from United States)
> What is your subjective opinion or you have some facts to say otherwise?
That's because you think high market share means monopoly.
As for your claims that you run opensuse with 180 MB of RAM, you should notify the opensuse project because they seem to think you need at least 256 MB. And as for running faster than Vector or DSL, you're lying, plain and simple.
This post will probably be deleted, I'm sure, but given how aggressive your original post was, that is what should be deleted.
186 • RE 153 • RE: 95 && 177 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 17:13:36 GMT from Canada)
"While I agree that some of the packages in the largest repos may be useless to many a large repository also can also include MANY new and up to date programs. Now that is a selling point."
[quote]You might want to work on your reasoning there because without the actual numbers (which would say the same for my stance of course :) ) you can't actually "factually" commit to it being a useful selling point. :P[quote]
What I said was my opinion and, as was posted later, some don't share my opinion. Fair enough. It's still a selling point to me. Nothing wrong with that reasoning, I'm not claiming to be laying out any facts.:)
[quote]I have to say I'm starting to enjoy the Rick Mercer report. I was rollin' watching him as he spent the day with Chretien. Try to find that kind've humour in say a larger country :)[quote]
Ha. Or try to find Mary Walsh or her equivalent walking up to the leader of, say, a large country, as he leaves the houses of parliament and have a chat without having to negotiate umpteen levels of security to get approval and not having the "encounter" scripted 5 ways to sunday. Did you see the one where Bob Rae and Rick went skinny dipping in the lake? Priceless.:))
177 Yes your results are shocking. I find it VERY difficult to believe what you say and I would have to see it for myself to believe it. That said, I expect windows98 is running on the vast majority of PC's with PI, PII and PIII rather than Linux. Some of them will be running windows 2000 as well. Very few of them will be running windowsME as most of those PC's flew out the window in a fit of rage many years ago.:)
2GB of ram is a LOT of ram. I doubt most people have that much yet. I certainly don't but I gave up on the upgrade treadmill a few years ago. Not that I don't still lust for a quad core with 8GB of ram I just won't buy one...yet.
What the poster could have been referring to though, is that if you want a modern OS that supports newer hardware peripherals like (USB keyboards) printers and scanners and memory cards, etc. then Linux will be better than anything else these days. Your experience notwithstanding I would (mostly) agree with that. Windows2000 is still an option for those PC's as a lot of XP drivers will work on them. I don't find the idea of downloading and installing drivers on windows nearly as interesting as hacking a Linux install so you know how I would treat those PC's
187 • RE: 181 (by IMQ on 2007-12-04 17:25:47 GMT from United States)
I have the same curiosity as yours.
My experience test-driving DSL was always fast on a number of PCs and laptops that I have. Since all of my machines have 128MB of RAM or more, I usually test-drove DSL with *toram* option. Truth, DSL does not support all the hardware. Not always. But the basic ones (CPU, RAM, etc) with basic video driver work most of the time.
I never tried nLite because by the time I heard of it, I have already been using Linux on desktop for quite sometime. So in your experience, does it run better after XP getting stripped down?
In my own experience on a variety of PCs and laptops from home, work, friends and family, I had never seen XP running responsively with less than 512MB of RAM. Many of the home PCs I encountered usually came with 256MB or less when purchase. And most home users don't upgrade. They just accept the way it is as far as speed is concern because they don't know any better.
The last time I helped a friend buying a laptop, it had XP Home Edition on it with only 256MB, so I suggested adding another 512MB of RAM to make it run better. This was just a few months or so before Vista is the only Windows you get when you go shopping at the local stores like Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. in the USA.
Nowaday, whenever I help someone purchasing a computer, I always suggested to have at least 2GB of RAM because Vista is dog slooow on 512MB, even slow on 1 GB once you have all the *basic* protection programs (Anti-Virus, Anti-Spyware, etc.) running in the background to protect the so called ***better-secured-than-Linux*** Windows Vista. :)
188 • @175 (by Adam Williamson on 2007-12-04 17:29:00 GMT from Canada)
The point about including unrar in non-free is a good one. The reason it's not like that now is simple - unrar was around long before the non-free repository existed, so back then, the MDV community only has the question "is it completely free / open source?" If yes, goto main or contrib; if no, goto PLF. Now we have the non-free repository, the license sure looks like it could go in there. I'll propose that it be added to non-free.
libxvid and liblame cannot go in the official repositories due to patent issues. Mandriva, as a commercial business, has a non-zero risk of actually getting sued over patent issues. PCLOS, as a community-based distribution with no real cash reserves, has pretty much a zero risk of actually getting sued over patent issues, which is why they just go ahead and include patent-infringing packages in their official repositories.
Point 3 is a commonly brought up one. It's been on the tech specs for each release since 2007.0 but hasn't been done as it's actually rather complex to do reliably for all distros. It's on the specs again for 2008.1, so if we have a developer with enough time, it might get in there this time.
189 • pclinuxos (by zzemz on 2007-12-04 17:31:04 GMT from United States)
is the distro that good, that it is number one forever?
190 • Re. 181 (by Nanlee on 2007-12-04 17:34:33 GMT from Canada)
First, your math is right, it should be 160MB.
Second, I did not tweak anything on Windows XP or Linux to make them faster. I am in favor of out the box support sort of approach. This old machine was running Windows Me for many years, and that was my favorite OS. When I installed XP, it was just for the fun. Never expect to see it working. But, it surprised me. For various Linux distros, I struggled and tried different ways in installation as quite a few of them won't go without my fiddling around to bypass some issues. But, I don't know Linux enough to tweak around for better performance. So, my comparison was just out of box experiences. Never meant for benchmarking different distros against each other.
Third, I read about Arch and others. But Arch won't boot properly to the point that I can run the installation. So, I can't tell you anything there.
Fourth, you are right again about Microsoft's own Office stuff, Yes, they were fast and that is all a lot of people need. (I meant lots and lots and lots of them) I didn't even wanted to try the Open Office on that one. My experience with OOo was that it took enough time for a quick shower to start and took a sec. or so to see the letter I typed to appear on screen on a PIII PC.
191 • #188 (by dooooo on 2007-12-04 17:48:53 GMT from Jordan)
Thank you for your reply and all the informative comments .
192 • Reviews of BSD's (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 17:55:25 GMT from United States)
The reviewer posted only a few reviews of Linux only distributions. They clearly forgot slackware and debian. Other than complain, why are the BSD's not rated as well. With the new TrueBSD, and RoFreesBIE liveDVD's, things should be much easier to install than before.
"Keep your Stick on the Ice", no who would want to keep his stick on the ice, they would want to insert the stick unto a warm(er) place. The ice does not need the stick.
193 • @189: "is the distro that good, that it is number one forever?" (by [soŋtsɛn kampo] on 2007-12-04 18:01:46 GMT from Malaysia)
Yes, it is. It has bits and pieces of other distros, several patent-infringing packages, and extensive language support (U.S. English). The downside is that it is frequently updated which means that you need to visit http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=pclinuxos several times a day to track the changes.
194 • @189: "is the distro that good, that it is number one forever?" (by Anonymous on 2007-12-04 18:16:22 GMT from Malaysia)
It's installer makes it "one of the easiest distros to install" and it has "a nice system configuration interface which makes it particularly easy to configure printers, network connections, the display, and other peripherals". These features (and many others) have been cloned by a commercial distro called Mandriva which was not reviewed in this week's "grand overview of popular desktop distributions".
195 • Re. 185 (by Nanlee on 2007-12-04 18:59:14 GMT from Canada)
No. I don't think high market share means monopoly. It is the other way around. Monopoly means controlling predominant market share. Can you tell the logical difference between the two? This is what the word monopoly usually mean.
In my original post, I thought #`131 might not understand the real meaning of word monopoly and he might mean superior. That is why I also put my experience with Linux and Windows XP in there to show that Linux is NOT necessarily better either.
I am not surprised to see that you don't believe or choose not to believe my results. Others expressed their doubts or different opinions, too, but in a civilized way as we generally do here. My advice to you is covering your ear won't stop others from hearing you are stealing the bell and burying your head in sand won't prevent others seeing your butt.
Face the real world.
196 • My experience with PCLOS (by Nanlee on 2007-12-04 19:40:54 GMT from Canada)
I have an old IBM PII350/128Mb PC. It is running Window XP now. I was not prepared to install a Linux on to the hard drive. So, I tried to run live CD on it. I had many happy experiences with a lot of live CDs running successfully on many different PCs, faster or slower. But, on this PC, none of live CD ever worked. I have tried Slax, BreatX, LG3d, DSL, Puppy, the Buntos, MCN, Mint, Scientific, Knoppix, Simply Mepis and many others. It just won't work. I suspect it was the type of RAM (EC enabled) that caused the failure. (Just speculating, no technical evidence what so ever) Well, failure is OK, just try another one.
Then, one day, I tried PCLOS. It did not work either. But, during trial, the PC froze and I have to hold down the power button to turn off the PC. This is nothing new either. What surprised me was that it somehow damaged the BIO. It won't boot from the HD anymore. It won't boot from the floppy driver either. The message shows that it was tempting net boot. (What the ???) When I try to run bio setup, the boot order looked OK. But it just can't boot from the HD. So, now, I have to boot from an old Windows 98 setup CD then choose to boot from hard drive to start the PC. Once it starts, the XP still runs smoothly. I can use it to watch broadband TV from BNN.ca and CTV broadband program.
This my horrible experience with PCLOS. I know the same PCLOS live CD ran OK on a slower PC. So, what was the problem? Any advice or explanation?
197 • My experience with PCLOS (by zzemz on 2007-12-04 20:08:59 GMT from United States)
You need to boot from the xp cd. when it ask you to install or repair choose repair. It will ask what windows you want just type a 1. At the c: prompt type fix mbr. after type exit and reboot normally.
198 • @196 (by john frey on 2007-12-04 20:20:13 GMT from Canada)
If the CD-rom is as old as the rest of the system that's likely your problem. Older cd-rom drives can't read cd's burnt on newer drives. Try swapping for a newer drive.
If the cpu is not an Intel cpu then i686 kernels (possibly i586 kernels too) won't boot but I don't think that's your problem from your description.
Did you try resetting the defaults in the bios?
199 • Comment Section (by RC on 2007-12-04 20:24:21 GMT from United States)
Well...for a couple of weeks civility and productive, intelligent dialog seemed to be in the majority here....but that got shot this week. Looks like troll central here. Obnoxious replies to comments that are taken totally out of context, name calling, complaints about signatures, retarded political ranting....it is like the evil version of Sesame Street around here. All the "good kids" are eventually going to get tired of this and go home.
200 • re:196 (by Caraibes on 2007-12-04 20:47:54 GMT from Dominican Republic)
You should try AntiX M7 or Wolvix... Both are good for older hardware...
201 • re: 180 (by Dopher on 2007-12-04 21:22:24 GMT from Belgium)
I agree Puppy beats them all when it comes to speed. I like the concept of puppy.
It's such a shame it's not worked out fine for the more serious user. Their release cycle is insane. (Sometimes even 2 different kernels with the same puppy version) This makes their wiki/forum almost unusable. Finding info doesn't mean that this corresponds with the version you are using.
But appearantly it's the choice of the creator to not let it be a serious distro for users, but more to have fun with experimenting. You can read that in the statement: how the puppy project is run --> http://www.puppylinux.com/development/project-statement.htm
Personally i think that a puppy linux with a decent release cycle, and good repository per version, and everything well documented would be the bomb for me (and not only for me). Then it would be a revolutionairy OS.
202 • Re. 197, 198 and 200 (by Nanlee on 2007-12-04 21:29:50 GMT from Canada)
Thanks for the advices. I will first try to fix the MBR. But the live CD is not supposed to touch my hard drive, isn't it?
It reads other CDs burnt on newer drivers, and it did read many live CDs. It just stop in the middle of boot process.
It is a Intel PII 350 for sure.
Yes, I did reset the bios, I noticed when I was resetting the bios, that it responded strangely, as if it has its own mind. This was why I thought it might have damaged the bios. But I never thought about the MBR
I will keep trying, including AntiX M7 and Wolvix.
Live CDs that worked on even older PCs would not work on this one. By the way, I just remembered that my friend also had trouble using any live CD on his old IBM laptop with PIII. Maybe its a IBM related issue. Any thoughts?
203 • No subject (by anticapitalista on 2007-12-04 21:55:27 GMT from Greece)
Try, if you haven't already, burning at very low speed and DAO.
204 • RE: 202 (by Landor on 2007-12-04 21:56:40 GMT from Canada)
It wouldn't happen to be one of the IBM PL series would it? I've found the early models to be notorious for Linux in general when it comes to booting most distros. That's just my personal experience though on some dust magnets.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
205 • Re. 204 (by Nanlee on 2007-12-04 22:20:07 GMT from Canada)
Yes, it is a PL-300.
High stick is a foul, right?
206 • RE 187 - and something else (by KimTjik on 2007-12-04 23:31:46 GMT from Sweden)
If XP runs better after some re-mastering in nLite? Basically not, but that's my personal view, even though it has some fun factor involved. Best gains I've reached when using such slimmed versions for virtualization, then it's a real advantage. Otherwise the best tweaks are done from within a normal install. nLite though plays a great role in making it possible to add needed drivers for a particular computer or get service packs and updates packed in from scratch, besides getting rid of some crap and improve network performance. Enough about Windows.
I certainly agree with Caraibes: Wolvix is a great distro! It deserves more attention than it gets. The hard-drive installation procedure has become a lot easier... or does my memory fail me (I have some flashbacks of a previous quite tricky procedure, but I might be wrong)? For those who can live with how packages are installed in Slackware, you also get the freedom to add those packages.
207 • RE: 205 (by Landor on 2007-12-04 23:47:00 GMT from Canada)
I thought it might be the case. It sounded quite similar to a problem I had with a couple of the earlier models. I usually get a few boxes dropped off to me, or in exchange for services rendered :) on a regular basis and I put a small decent distro on them, ready to go for everything online and other apps and give them to a local school to hand out to kids who wouldn't get a computer in their home otherwise, or a community centre who again hands them off to families they know that would find the most use from them.
Anyway, a couple as I said had a similar problem. Either booting was the worst thing imaginable or if I got it to boot up (and that was only on one box, two wouldn't) to the live cd, and even though it would recognize the hard drive during the cd's boot process, every distro would error trying to write to the hard drive. I tried every option I could, looked for every scrap of info to no avail. I just ended up stacking them in the corner for a day when I might find a solution or another one rolls in that needs parts.
Sorry I couldn't help you with the problem, but it might be a bit easier knowing you're not the only one to find similar issues.
A high stick can be a foul/penalty, depending on the gender :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
208 • Just thought I'd add a comment...sh*t, everyone else is! (by JustInterested on 2007-12-05 00:29:29 GMT from Australia)
he he he.. Why are people getting so worked up over the "stick on the ice" comment/signature? It cracks me up each time I read it.
If it comes from some TV/radio show in Canada, so what? I'm sure lots of people use some saying/wording they've heard from somewhere...
Landor, keep your stick on the ice, bit cold for our taste here in Oz... That's DownUnder not the TV show! Although things are wild down here.. Crikey, was that a crocodile being jumped by a wild red kangaroo?? No... phew was just one of those silly carnivorous drop bears that sit in our gum trees...
Keep your beer in the fridge.
209 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-12-05 00:32:42 GMT from United States)
very disappointed to see such a review titled by "A grand overview of popular desktop distributions" in DWW.
210 • stay sober (by john frey on 2007-12-05 01:10:19 GMT from Canada)
[quote]Keep your beer in the fridge.[quote]
As a teetotaler I couldn't agree more. All the shit happens when the beer comes out of the fridge.:0
211 • RE: 169 Your comment Ladislav did surprise me (by ladislav on 2007-12-05 02:32:09 GMT from Taiwan)
You might find it hard to believe it, but running DistroWatch is a stressful job. It's not just the pressure to keep the news and distro pages up-to-date and to write regular content, it's also the expectations of readers and the community. "Hey, when is my distro going to be included in DW?" "Gee, your review really suck!" "Can't you see the $distro is the best, period?" There are lost of demands, lots of expectations, lots of opinions.
In the end, the truth is that no matter how well you do you work, some people will find fault with it. Many are unable to see that someone spent weeks of writing articles or that someone was up all night to finish the work in time, or that someone sacrificed a few weekends and the family to deliver something for you to read or use. Just look at some of the comments here - there are even persons who say they would never visit here again because DistroWatch is no longer objective! There is another who "knows" that Canonical sponsors DistroWatch, so we can't write anything negative about Ubuntu. And that's before we start with all the PHR "cheating" talks!
But I think the biggest problem of the Linux community (and the Internet in general) is our collective inability to communicate effectively while typing anonymously in an online forum. We are often blinded by the anger about what we've just read and react accordingly. For many, it's impossible to say something like "hey, thanks for the review, but I found a few errors, here are the corrections...", instead they just can't stop themselves from ridiculing the author and his work: The "Grand waste of space" post is a perfect example of a person with a complete inability to communicate effectively online with other human beings.
The truth is that there is no perfect review, as there is no perfect software and no perfect distribution. There is no perfect human being either. We all make mistakes! But if you make a mistake, wouldn't it be nicer if somebody told you about it in a polite, intelligent way, so that you can learn from it? Why is it so hard for so many people to imagine that there is a real human being on the other side, not just some emotionless machine?
With the new year approaching fast, I have only one wish: no more aggressive, sarcastic and offensive post in this forum (or any other Linux/BSD form on the Internet, for that matter), please! Before clicking on the Submit button, re-read your comment and ask yourself: "would I say it this way if the original poster or reviewer was standing in front of me?" If the answer is no, then don't post it.
That's all I want as a Christmas gift.
(Sorry for the long rant ;-)
212 • take it easy! (by khai on 2007-12-05 03:38:30 GMT from Canada)
ANY review will have something subjective in it, will be partial only and there always be someone who won't agree.
but take this week DWW review easy, don't get upset by inaccuracy or not mentioning your distro. take it as somebody's opinion.
will you base your next distro choice on this review? no. so?
if you don't like the review here, check "Latest reviews" section on the main page.
there are 211 comments above me. if everybody would wrote a review of "his" distro, we could have much better picture here and particular reviewer wouldn't have to complain that his distro was omitted.
re:packages- i agree with opinion that it's not about quantity, but about quality. i consider minimum amount of packages for all-purpose distro 4000-5000. can somebody tell that Gentoo is worse than Ubuntu, because it has only half of an amount of Ubuntu's packages?
213 • Re #211: Ladislav's Christmas wish (by rglk on 2007-12-05 04:17:55 GMT from United States)
Hey Ladislav, I really appreciate your pouring out your heart to us. I've always assumed that running DistroWatch must be a pretty stressful job, and I've admired how exceptionally well you've been handling it, most always keeping your cool and staying constructive. I for one will take your Christmas wish to heart.
The way I would put such a wish to the community here is by saying: Hey guys/gals, try to make a constructive and quality contribution to this forum, read over what you're about to post with that criterion in mind and if it doesn't match it, let it go. This comments section racks up 250-300 items every week as of late which is simply too much to read, and one is forced to skim through it quickly and probably absorb too much that's rather light in content and miss much that's substantial in content. Some self-discipline before submission would be greatly appreciated.
Re Baris' grand roundup of popular distros: I thought this was the best lead article in DWW in quite some time. The guy obviously put a huge amount of time and effort into this project and he remained remarkably level-headed dealing with this sea of data and still extracting generally cogent observations that are quite helpful. I found little in his long article to quibble about and was very impressed that he was able to pull off this chore in such an equitable and constructive way.
I would recommend that you put a link to this article in a prominent place on the DW home page (e.g. in a box underneath "Type distribution" and "Select distribution") labeled something like "First orientation for distro newbies".
214 • Hi Ladislav! (by IMQ on 2007-12-05 04:47:31 GMT from United States)
I just want to take a moment to say "Thanks!" for all the work you put in to DistroWatch to keep people like me who are interested in "What's up" in the world of Linux distros.
I have been practically a daily visitor since the early days of DistroWatch. And will continue to enjoy the fruit of your labor. As I believe many people who visit DW regularly also feel the same.
So, again, thanks!
215 • RE:196 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-05 05:04:10 GMT from United States)
I've had a similar machine with a old cd that would not boot. I installed puppy onto the win 95/98 partition and had to use a boot floppy (wake pup2) for when I wanted to go into linux. Works good and it runs puppy V4. I have one with 192mb and a better cd drive that runs Sam 2007 just make sure you have enough room for a disk swap (need 8gb min.). If it has 10gb you can dual boot, I have a C500 with window98 and 256mb, I'm typing on it now.
System requirements for distros are out of date (2gb disk for example) but you can run them with less. A few years ago I got Mandriva to run with XFCE running on 128mb of memory on a 512mb flash card. It only got on the net and that was it. Can be done yes, ideal no, but with the right hardware it can be done.
216 • Ladislav's Christmas gift (by kanishka on 2007-12-05 08:46:03 GMT from Italy)
I completely agree with you Ladislav, that's exactly what I thought by reading many of the comments to Baris' article. I really can't understand that. :(
Best wishes for your deserved gift ;)
217 • RE 211: Don't be sorry. It was a good comment. (by KimTjik on 2007-12-05 09:34:43 GMT from Sweden)
Thanks for your response! I think you made some good points and I fully agree. We have the same ugly problem on our streets as well: anonymous and in groups some people are able to do the most horrendous acts, but lonely singled out and confronted with his/hers usual victim they nearly always prove to be cowards.
I at times make unnecessary posts as well, but I hope I'm improving. There's actually very few forums I visit nowadays, especially hardware oriented, because too many have become more of a battleground. I don't know, maybe some take their gaming "skills" with them into the forums (and these don't allow you to be anonymous)?
I apologize if my post came across as unappreciative of your work, because that wasn't my intention at all. I hope your wish will be fulfilled, because some comments made in this section can be very informative.
218 • No subject (by dbrion on 2007-12-05 10:09:26 GMT from France)
"
I would recommend that you put a link to this article in a prominent place on the DW home page (e.g. in a box underneath "Type distribution" and "Select distribution") labeled something like "First orientation for distro newbies".
"
Do beginners install linux by themselves?
Most of them ask a friend/colleague to install (I know beginners who are very satisfied with WhiteBoxen and Gnome, though the install is ... austere, but they did not install!).
Even complicated installs can be tried, in some respect, with Potemkining (one can choose betw. qemu, VMplayer or Vbox, among others I forget)
=>The installation/configuration issues (if any) should be seperatedly treated, and, on the long term, are less interesting than language recognition (or language recognition radically simply *removing*), memory print, quality of the installed softs, among many others I forget to-day).
Explaining in this week DWW that KDE is somewhat unintuitive is astonishing (I make a great effort not to be sarcastic), as my nephew, when he was 6 yrs, could navigate though Kaella (a Knoppix derivative, whith great language recognition /only in France, but without any flaw, and to day a little in US English, me seems/ and fairly acknowledging its Knoppix origins)
As pple find Vista very ressource consuming and nitpicking, there seems to be a growing trend in having linuxen preinstalled,, at least at my HDs seller (I sometimes help him), which seperates more and more the install/config from usability (perhaps even artwork, though I do not know why!).
219 • Which versions were used for the reviews? 32-bit or 64-bit (by pmccartney on 2007-12-05 14:51:54 GMT from United States)
After reading the review system, and some of the comments posted here, I would agree that it's too bad Mandriva and Debian weren't included in the list. However, there is one other aspect that needs to be addressed... 32-bit or 64-bit. I noticed that PCLinuxOS and Freespire are listed in the reviews which BTW are strictly 32-bit. I do agree more or less with the results, but it would have been nice if Baris included which versions he used, 32-bit or 64-bit.
Since I recently built a 64-bit powerhouse, my interests are geared towards the obvious, therefore, I have no interest in PCLinuxOS or Freespire. I have installed and tested practically every distribution he mentions, and then some, and Mandriva is currently my distro of choice. It is by far the easiest to install, and it recognized and correctly configured all of my hardware.
Another distribution that was not mentioned is Arch Linux. It requires quite a bit of know-how to get everything running, but once it's installed and configured, PACMAN is an outstanding utility for keeping your system up to date, more so than any other package manager I've seen.
220 • The # 1 reason why most businesses won't switch to Linux (by pmccartney on 2007-12-05 16:17:11 GMT from United States)
On a different note, I recently purchased an OEM version of Vista Ultimate (32-bit), and have it installed on one of my systems at home... mainly because I need it for AutoCAD. Plus, I still have a lot of 32-bit Windows applications that I use in conjunction with work. I would have preferred sticking with Windows XP, but because of my particular job, and the fact that our company is expecting to upgrade to Vista in 2008, it was only appropriate for me to take the plunge.
Vista really is a pig. I've been using it now for at least four months, and all I can say is I would gladly trade it in for ANY Linux distribution (preferably Mandriva Powerpack) any day. The big draw back stems from commercial companies such as Autodesk that refuse to develop Linux versions of their applications. Unless that time comes, our company will remain locked into the dark lord's evil empire.
And for those of you who are about to say, "You can use VMware." Believe me, I've already tried. Even with a high-end, dual-core processor, and 4GB of RAM, Windows runs very sluggish and choppy. And forget about Wine... any of the more recent releases of AutoCAD won't even install.
221 • OFF: ad hominem (by Ariszló on 2007-12-05 17:27:33 GMT from Hungary)
truth machine wrote: "These are ad hominem arguments ... such are fallacious."
http://www.google.hu/search?q=%22truth+machine%22+%22ad+hominem%22 : 194 hits
ON
222 • Speed in theory and practice (by Ariszló on 2007-12-05 17:34:05 GMT from Hungary)
truth machine wrote: "Sabayon, as a source distribution, is likely to be better optimized and thus use less CPU over the long term than ubuntu."
Yes, source distributions _may_ be better optimized but Sabayon seems to be counter-example. It booted much slower and launched applications much slower than Ubuntu on all machines I tried.
223 • RE: 222 (by Landor on 2007-12-05 18:33:43 GMT from Canada)
I gave a justification for this. I don't know how much you know about Gentoo or Sabayon for emerging software. A user defines the "use flags" in the make.conf file to define what functionality apps are compiled with. If you look at the Sabayon's generic make.conf and Gentoo's, you'll see that for a standard desktop install Sabayon has a ton more use flags in it compared to Gentoo. Now while this might ensure overall functionality for a wide assortment of software, it compromises system performance, optimization, as well as drastically increasing compile times on various apps depending of course on how many of those use flags the app uses.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
224 • RE: 176 & 186 (by Landor on 2007-12-05 19:05:00 GMT from Canada)
176:
Hockey? I don't watch hockey, since there's only one team that knows how to play it, the Leafs! :)
No, I haven't seen the Rae episode, hopefully I'll catch it sooner than later.
"I don't find the idea of downloading and installing drivers on windows nearly as interesting as hacking a Linux install so you know how I would treat those PC's"
Although this wasn't meant for me. I just got off the phone doing some support with a person regarding their audio. They did an upgrade for their sound card and wondered why they had no sound. I explained to them they needed to now install the drivers and it was mundane to say the least. It's as if it's monotone. "Click yes, click next, click I agree, click next, click install, click finish, click yes to reboot". I constantly think to myself "Bonzo" could be doing this as well as anyone else.
I agree about the beer, but, if we did have more people drinking the greatest refreshment known to man, tea only, this section would have triple the posts because everyone would be up and wired for sound :)
Tea Rocks :)
(Just in general)
Although this week has seen some ignorance, and personally I don't know why Ladislav found the one post in regard to me offensive but not the other right after, it was far more offensive imo, shrugs, I don't need a protectorate though :). We've also seen a ton of useful information regarding packages, system performance, installation(s) I have to say personally this is one of the weeks that I've learned an amount of information I had been curious about that's going to lead me to look into it more, packaging. Thank you Adam and Anticapitalista for your information regarding this subject, the posts were very informative.
Keep you stick on the ice..
Landor
225 • Probably too late to the party, but... (by PastorEd on 2007-12-05 19:53:08 GMT from United States)
Hmm... Well, as far as the comparison article went, I thought it was very interesting. Baris (if you're reading), you did a very good job. Your article was a good read.
I noticed right off that you said it was a review of distros that YOU HAD INSTALLED on your machine - and so therefore, it was obvious that you weren't trying to write a comprehensive comparison.
I really did like your format, however, VERY easy to read and to understand. I think I got the subjective "sense" that you were trying to communicate.
Personally, I'm a PCLOS user (I actually prefer Debian, but my wife and kids all use PCLOS, and it's easier to administer just one distro), and I understand your comment about the repositories. I, too, wish there were more packages - but honestly, whenever I've really *needed* a package, I've been able to get it fairly quickly through PCLOS.
Oh, and by the way, #160? Your comment about SCUMMVM is true: it isn't in the repositories ANYMORE - but it used to be. You can still find the rpm at rpm.pbone.net - just do a search for scummvm and click only the PCLinuxOS checkbox, and you'll get two hits. That's how my kids have their games running just fine.
Hope that helps.
(and #166 - dang, it you posted "Keep your ice off the stick" before I did. Twisted minds often think alike, I guess! {grin})
G.B.Y.L.B.T., PastorEd
226 • No subject (by anticapitalista on 2007-12-06 00:18:49 GMT from Greece)
#224 I would also like to say how glad I am that this weeks DWW comments, on the whole, has been the most refreshing for weeks!! None, or only a few, posts bashing other distros and harping on about X distro being number 1 in the Page Hit Ranking.
I felt that I have actually learnt something this week.
227 • @194 : Control center (by glyj on 2007-12-06 04:21:20 GMT from New Caledonia)
About PCLinuxOS, you said:
«These features (and many others) have been cloned by a commercial distro called Mandriva which was not reviewed in this week's "grand overview of popular desktop distributions".»
It's the opposite: PClinuxOS re-use the code written by Mandriva.
It was possible due to the fact that ALL the code written by Mandriva is under GPL as always ( unlike some others like ubuntu with launchpad at the beginning for example)
++
228 • Packages and Distro's (by winsnomore on 2007-12-06 05:15:05 GMT from United States)
@48 and responses thereof.
I can;'t fathom the love for Gnome .. I have tried it, but it doesn't have a basic thing that everyone who uses a computer (linux) must have .. a terminal program .. xterm is 1000000000000000000000 years old.
Only reason I use KDE is because of Konsole .. nothing else compares to it .. I will compromise everything else .. but this is too basic to negotiate.
And some yahoo's who think that number of packages have anything to do with "usefull" packages are not linux users .. just jokers who think think they are "users" ..get a life ..
I am not advocating one over the other but Fedora 8/Ubunut 7.10 and Suse 10.3 all have installation problems galore .. they don't want to run on any hardware not running 100 Hz Vertical on any screen res .. go figure .. don't believe me ... go read other peoples experience on other forums too .. before bitching .
229 • Re: 193 - frequent updates ? (by johncoom on 2007-12-06 05:48:28 GMT from Australia)
QUOTE
The downside is that it is frequently updated which means that you need to visit http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=pclinuxos several times a day to track the changes.
END QUOTE
This is actually untrue ! and is really a false statistic that people see because Ladislav can not be bothered to check when PCLinuxOS dose its apt updates BECAUSE it happens ERRATICALLY ! and so at DW it has been set to change each day (increase the date by one day each day) to give unknowing and unsuspecting people the illusion that the APT updates are actually being tracked.
Like every thing with PCLinuxOS the updates are "ready when they are ready" and are not done to a "Fixed Time Table" - I personally prefer it that way as by the time updates get uploaded to the Primary Public mirror, there are very very few problems, if any at all. I have only ever noticed one faulty PUBLIC update in 2 or 3 years. And even that had nothing wrong with it, it just got moved out of "testing" to early (at a few end users request, before it had become really stable, menus were still missing)
There is a way that Ladislav could give his visitors a much more accurate picture of Tracking the PCLinuxOS APT updates. It would probably mean a LOT MORE extra work for him ? And that is if he were to monitor the Primary Public Mirror FTP site at distro.ibiblio.org etc.
Even this will not tell people when any Secondary Public mirror gets its APT updates, as usually they are at least one day behind, some even longer ? BUT that is no different for repo's of any other Distro's Secondary mirrors (ie. even Debian has the same phenomena !).
I just looked at distro.ibiblio.org and I see some thing happed to day for the PCLinuxOS repo's, BUT it does not happen every day, some times it may go for a week or two (or more), other times it may happen every day or every second day. As I said APT updates happen erratically.
This is probably exactly the same (or similar) for ANY Distro's repositories ? ie. Updates do not happen every day ?
So the date one sees on Distrowatch PCLinuxOS page is NOT a way for Tracking for APT updates. Not as Ladislav is doing it at the present by just letting it tick over another day, each and every day (easy way to make it look like it is giving useful information - actually it is not useful at all ?)
PS. These false APT updates are nothing new, I noticed right from the first time that the date was shown, must be years ago. I have always been amused, by it. Looks good, but it means nothing - Sorry Ladislav I would never have mentioned this, but when people start saying negative things about PCLinuxOS because your site is in-accurate, I have to point out the reality of what your Date actually is, misleading ?
Do correct me if I am wrong ? I've watched the dates for a long time now in amusement ! To be fare PCLinuxOS updates do happen frequently - but not each and every day !
:-(
230 • @228 • Packages and Distro's (by john frey on 2007-12-06 06:17:08 GMT from Canada)
"And some yahoo's who think that number of packages have anything to do with "usefull" packages are not linux users .. just jokers who think think they are "users" ..get a life .."
Oh my. How be you go back and read #211? Just a friendly suggestion:) .
I will also add a thank-you to Baris. I enjoyed the article, especially the speed measurements. Nice to have a consistent set of benchmarks in each review for comparison. Of course it won't change my choice of distro but then I've been using Linux long enough to have found what I like. It will probably help some newbies make a choice and it was certainly good flamebait. Then again, "Hello, how are you?" is good flamebait.:)
231 • Re: 228 • Packages and Distro's (by Ariszló on 2007-12-06 09:05:26 GMT from Hungary)
winsnomore wrote: I can;'t fathom the love for Gnome .. I have tried it, but it doesn't have a basic thing that everyone who uses a computer (linux) must have .. a terminal program .. xterm is 1000000000000000000000 years old.
GNOME has GNOME Terminal. It is in the Accessories or System Tools menu depending on which distribution you use.
232 • RE 230 - why limit newbies horizon? (by KimTjik on 2007-12-06 09:50:07 GMT from Sweden)
I'm questioning whether some newbies statements about what interest a newbie is correct. As it is now some talk for all and hence make a premature decision. In a sense it wouldn't be so important, because as time goes by the newbies who don't want to make the same choice as "all" newbies will find the alternatives, if it wouldn't be for misleading information.
The benchmarks for speed in the test are difficult to evaluate since the worst are ranked 7 and the best 8. When you say "consistent set of benchmarks" it's unfortunately consistent in too many ways. If it would have been a comparison with other distros among the "top 100" - and then I exclude specialized distros like DSL, Puppy, DeLi and so on - the 7 or 8 would suddenly become a lot closer to 5 or 6. Maybe I took the "flamebait", I don't know, but this is still the dilemma when making such reviews. And will it really be good guidance for newbies? Who are they in reality?
We shouldn't forget that a significant number of so called newbies actually are Windows "power-users" who want and expect a lot more than easy clicking; they're missing the possibilities to tune and tweak in the real sense. I've seen many switch directly from Windows to Gentoo. Thus I think we're generalizing too much about newbies' needs or what a newbie wants to see; the newbie isn't one of millions clones coming off the production line.
...
I've recently been looking and reading some other reviews on the Webb. I'm afraid we're seeing an unfortunate split soon in the Linux camp, because some of the folks reviewing Linux nowadays do it from a questionable standpoint (I don't include Baris here, even though a strongly disagree as explained earlier with how his review was written). One of the links about reviews on DW points to a reviewer with statements like these:
"To you I say, respectfully, I don't care. Sure, it might have 3 different desktop environments. If none of them can play so much as one MP3 file, it makes no difference to me."
And this in the summary explaining a low score, actually the lowest. MP3? Wow, that's a real show-stopper, isn't it? The only issue was that it wasn't included in the default repository. This makes me sad. If you don't happen to own a mobile-phone or some so called MP3 player that can't play anything else but MP3 (something we can change if we put consumer pressure on the manufacturers) why would you ever use such a poor formate as MP3? And anyway: what does that have to do with the total score of an operating system? I'm not surprised that some of us already keep an eye on BSD in case these attitudes invade the whole Linux community (maybe an exaggeration but in some aspects it's not totally far-fetched).
My subject "RE 230..." was in it's entirety of course not directed at "john frey".
233 • re 211 (by simon on 2007-12-06 10:14:43 GMT from New Zealand)
thanks for that comment...and for this excellent site. you are right of course, and i'll add my voice to the others who hope your christmas wish comes true. i think it would be a miracle of comparable magnitude to the one that started christmas if it did, but it doesn't hurt to hope! i will try at least to apply what you've said to my own posts.
keep your stick on the ice, your beer in your fridge, your towel in your satchel, your poetry to yourself, and your custom scripts in /usr/local/bin
234 • @227, 229 (by [soŋtsɛn kampo] on 2007-12-06 10:16:55 GMT from Malaysia)
@227
"It's the opposite: PClinuxOS re-use the code written by Mandriva."
If that is true, how come Mandriva isn't number one instead?! (confused)
@229:
"This is actually untrue ! ... the date one sees on Distrowatch PCLinuxOS page is NOT a way for Tracking for APT updates."
So why do 3000 people click on the PCLOS link every day?! (very confused)
235 • ? (by mika on 2007-12-06 11:51:08 GMT from Italy)
BOT maybe?
;-))
236 • Ladislav and Distrowatch (by David Hull on 2007-12-06 14:24:27 GMT from United States)
This yank just wants to say THANK YOU for Distrowatch!
Your fine site was instramental in making possible my migration
to Linux.
Whenever someone I meet expresses interest in switching to
Linux, I always tell them that the place to start getting educated
is "Distrowatch".
Thank you for a job well done, and nothing in your site needs
to be changed to keep me a happy camper.
Dave Hull Montana, USA
237 • RE 227 Désaccord profond et solennel sur l'origine lde Linux/du monde. (by dbrion1 on 2007-12-06 15:36:25 GMT from France)
"It's the opposite: PClinuxOS re-use the code written by Mandriva.
It was possible due to the fact that ALL the code written by Mandriva is under GPL as always ( unlike some others like ubuntu with launchpad at the beginning for example)
"
Je ne peux que m'insurger contre cette contre vérité: si on base la "vérité" sur le nombre de lignes et DWW, farce est de constater:
* que PClol est la mère, le père de TOUS les linux, parce qu'il reconnait le matériel. Mandriva/el n'a qu'une politique "anti-PR" (cf http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20061002 : il s'agissait de personnes, qui travaillaient depuis des années(pas des jours, ni des minutes) à rendre Linux populaire et qui étaient lucides)
* que dieu/Texstar (les héros ne sont que des demi-dieux) a créé le GNU, le pain beurre et le café.
238 • #237 (by RC on 2007-12-06 16:15:55 GMT from United States)
Vous êtes plus désagréable en français que vous êtes en anglais.
239 • re 238 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-06 16:59:11 GMT from United States)
Agreed
re 237
See post 211, you seem to like being sarcastic, and seem to want to provoke people, week after week (after week). If you don't have something constructive to say, don't post. You should be banned. You don't like PCLOS, point taken already.
240 • Re: 224 Leafs (by voislav on 2007-12-06 17:17:15 GMT from Canada)
did you even watch the Leafs this season? It's more painful than installing Vista on last years computer. At least the Sens lost something like 30 in a row.
Wade Belak is awesome, 1 goal in 4 years with the team.
241 • Reviews (by wildman on 2007-12-06 19:43:30 GMT from United States)
Thanks for all the hard work you do. Great help to Linux users everywhere new or old.
Some of us really do notice, but forget to say Thanks.
Mike H , aka wildman
242 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 20:17:46 GMT from United States)
"But I think the biggest problem of the Linux community (and the Internet in general) is our collective inability to communicate effectively while typing anonymously in an online forum. We are often blinded by the anger about what we've just read and react accordingly. For many, it's impossible to say something like "hey, thanks for the review, but I found a few errors, here are the corrections...", instead they just can't stop themselves from ridiculing the author and his work: The "Grand waste of space" post is a perfect example of a person with a complete inability to communicate effectively online with other human beings."
No, actually, it's your angst-ridden posts that don't communicate anything useful effectively. My point, that thoroughly subjective reviews aren't a good basis for making decision, was communicated effectively -- people readily grasped what I was saying, even if they disagreed with it. But plenty of people agreed with it. OTOH, those who write "I liked it", "it was a good review", etc. communicate nothing of value ... it's just ego-stroking of the writer.
243 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 20:23:43 GMT from United States)
"The truth is that there is no perfect review, as there is no perfect software and no perfect distribution. There is no perfect human being either. We all make mistakes! But if you make a mistake, wouldn't it be nicer if somebody told you about it in a polite, intelligent way, so that you can learn from it? Why is it so hard for so many people to imagine that there is a real human being on the other side, not just some emotionless machine?"
Blah blah blah. People have written about the mistakes in the methodology of this review in an intelligent way, a way that people could learn from if they weren't so focused on protecting their poor fragile egos.
244 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 20:34:16 GMT from United States)
"I'm just amazed at the number of post that bash the work Baris has done. That's so childish. He clearly stated that the reviews were his personal impressions, based on the distro he installed."
Why should anyone care about some random person's personal impressions, regardless of how much time he put into forming them, gathering up the info, and presenting it? As I said, what matters is competence concerning the subject matter, not effort expended or prettiness of presentation. People who make judgments based on the latter will tend to be misled.
245 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 20:46:38 GMT from United States)
"Truth Machine" remarks... I agree with, and maybe writer of the article/reviews would agree, too: it would be foolish to base a decision on one article.
Thanks, Landor and Truth machine for reminding some sound principles.
"truth machine" might not be a smooth talker tickling our ears, but he made valid remarks.
I appreciate these statements. They certainly put the lie to Ladislav's nonsense about "a perfect example of a person with a complete inability to communicate effectively online with other human beings".
246 • #242 -#245 (by RC on 2007-12-06 20:51:44 GMT from United States)
LOL...this is a hoot. A true legend in your own mind. Truth Machine...is that from the Latin Obnoxiuos Jerkus? I bet you can count your friends on one finger...if you are lucky. There is nothing macho nor truthful about bashing someone for your amusement. It is only childish and the sign of low intelligence. Congratulations.
247 • IPV6 slowdown of web-browser (by Distrowatch Reader on 2007-12-06 22:02:36 GMT from United States)
I am using PCLinuxOs
I turn off IPv6 because my Internet service provider does not support it.
It slows down the browser.if your isp doesnt support it.
About Config in firefox Disable IPV6
And disable it in the firewall
Copied from my Synaptic screen
IPv6 support for iptables.
iptables controls the Linux kernel network packet filtering code.
It allows you to set up firewalls and IP masquerading, etc.
IPv6 is the next version of the IP protocol.
Install iptables-ipv6 if you need to set up firewalling for your
network and you're using ipv6.
LOOK first then jump to conclusions.
29 • "slow web browsing" complaints (by Anonymous on 2007-12-03 12:13:03 GMT from Germany)
If you have a broken router than turn off IPV6 support, eg on openSUSE it's a setting within /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager: KDE_USE_IPV6="no"
I wouldn't rate PCLinuxOS having IPv6 not supported or disabled as bonus but as fault.
248 • Truth (by welkiner on 2007-12-06 22:06:24 GMT from United States)
All truth is subjective. Truth is based on facts, as we perceive them, but our perceptions are subjective. You perceive things differently from the way I perceive things, therefore, my truth may be different from your truth, but my truth is still valid for me, as your truth is valid for you.
The truth, as one perceives it, can be cruel, but the fact that it is true, does not justify using it. If a cruel and vindictive person hurts another person, it does not matter if they hurt them with a "lie" or a "truth". It is still just as cruel and just as hurtful...and just as wrong.
What is knowledge without wisdom?
249 • Way to egocentrical now "thuth machine" (by KimTjik on 2007-12-06 22:09:07 GMT from Sweden)
Yes I wrote "'truth machine' might not be a smooth talker tickling our ears, but he made valid remarks". Now you negated all that by some nonsense posts "truth machine", and becoming more of an "ego machine".
I didn't write what I did because I dig your attitude or something, but as long as you more or less could control yourself the points you made came through. So don't appreciate my previous comment, because it has nothing to do with you personally.
What does "communicate anything effectively" mean? Screaming, yelling, sarcasm? The only thing you accomplished with these last posts was shooting yourself in the foot. The basis for true communication has a lot to do with respecting your audience, if not you don't have any audience. In other words: that's an example of maximum ineffectiveness! No audience, so who do you talk to?
I'm really disappointed. I really think we had valid basis for constructive criticism, but its justification is getting ruined by post like yours "truth machine".
250 • Philospohy yet (by glenn on 2007-12-06 22:17:03 GMT from Canada)
What a forum!!!
From distro discussions to bashing everything/everyone in sight to philosophical musings ,,, well another form of perception is reality argument anyway.
I like mine better.
It is always a question of mind over matter.
If you have no mind, nothing really matters.
(Insert wide grin here)
Nice pot pourri of postings.
I love this place.
Glenn
251 • truth and egos (by simon on 2007-12-06 22:27:30 GMT from New Zealand)
ladislav (211) wasn't asking anyone to refrain from critical commentary: he clearly said, "if you make a mistake, wouldn't it be nicer if somebody told you about it in a polite, intelligent way, so that you can learn from it?". it's about disagreeing respectfully, rather than implying that people are idiots or in some other way inferior for posting whatever it was they posted. i agree with many of the criticisms of the review, but i also agree that many of these criticisms--mine included--were delivered with a scornful tone that wasn't appropriate; and i also agree with the various posts saying that we critics would do better to lead by example by submitting reviews of our own than to snipe at other people's valid contributions (which, for all their faults in our eyes, will no doubt be more useful to linux newcomers than our whining about them). ladislav's "we all make mistakes" is not some kind of snivelling excuse: it's simply a reminder that if ANY of us post a review on here, others WILL see faults in it. that's inevitable. whether we discuss those issues contemptuously or respectfully is another matter.
252 • Philosophy and Truth and RE: 248 (by Landor on 2007-12-06 22:31:57 GMT from Canada)
It's wrong to believe truth is subjective from a philosophical standing. Truth doesn't even exist in philosophy. How can it. In pure, raw philosophy, even the notion we exist is absurd, so how can one person be truthful, if they don't exist. You perceive you exist, but how to do you know? How do you know it's not a fabrication of a dream-like state of another who does exist, where you do not.
I think Linux is being sent into my mind as Linus Torvalds sleeps and dreams of his future creation, and this is what he perceives the future to hold...but really, none of you exist.
I can't wait for him to get to the good parts. (I wonder if it will still have PHRs in it)
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
253 • Reloading Comments Page - Opera (by aw on 2007-12-06 22:47:09 GMT from United States)
Hate to breakup this philosophical moment, but can someone tell me how to stop Opera from going back to the top of this page every time I reload it?
254 • DWW & ladislav (by liquibyte on 2007-12-06 22:49:15 GMT from United States)
You just keep doing what your doing sir. This is your site and it's yours to do with as you see fit, period. In spite of the rampant negativity I still found my perfect compiled distro (arch), so in my opinion you gave me a great deal of help by just having this resource available. I would have spent considerably more time searching if it were not for this site. I have tried most of the more popular distros and even more of the less popular ones. The one thing I notice out of all of this is that every last one of them has at least one thing the others don't. This gives me hope by the simple fact that some people are taking the time to create. If people would direct their energies towards a more worthy pursuit such as coding instead of the outward and apparent hate they seem to tend to forget never goes away on the net, we would already have bigger numbers in the OEM scope and they would have a much cooler legacy. I'll keep coding and one day, perhaps, I might feel confident enough to release and give back to that from which I've gained so much. Merry Christmas and thank you for being here for me.
255 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 22:54:58 GMT from United States)
Now you negated all that by some nonsense posts "truth machine", and becoming more of an "ego machine".
If I made valid remarks, they couldn't have been "negated" by later remarks.
I didn't write what I did because I dig your attitude or something
I didn't say anything about you digging my attitude. I simply noted that the comments I quoted put the lie to Ladislav's charge that I'm "a perfect example of a person with a complete inability to communicate effectively online with other human beings". It was a silly comment ... as are yours. This is supposed to be a plae for people to get info about distros, not a place for drama queens to put on their acts.
256 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 22:57:06 GMT from United States)
but i also agree that many of these criticisms--mine included--were delivered with a scornful tone that wasn't appropriate
Mature, effective people don't get all hung up on "tone".
257 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 22:59:57 GMT from United States)
i also agree with the various posts saying that we critics would do better to lead by example by submitting reviews of our own than to snipe at other people's valid contributions
As I noted, this is an ad hominem argument. Whether a criticism is valid doesn't hinge on what the person offering it has or hasn't done. As for "valid" contributions, that begs the question.
258 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:02:11 GMT from United States)
Ladislav's "we all make mistakes" is not some kind of snivelling excuse
Yes, actually, it is. See how far that gets you in the business world or in court.
259 • RE: 232 • RE 230 - why limit newbies horizon? (by john frey on 2007-12-06 23:05:13 GMT from Canada)
You're very right about newbies. They come in all shapes and sizes. When I was a newbie one of the things I aspired to do was use the command line because I read people saying, "I use the command line for some things because it is faster and more powerful." Now I can say that.
Of course that doesn't fit everyone which is why I said the article will help some newbies.
The benchmarks I was referring to in the article are the measurements for boot to log in, boot to desktop, transfer speed from USB memory stick, time to print. The ratings scale was just an arbitrary number (not a benchmark) that Baris used and perhaps the weakest part of the article.
Did you miss those benchmarks in reading the article? They are there for every distro in the review. ...God, it was so hard to say that without reverting to sarcasm or some other form of abuse. This being kind to each other is going to take some practice.
Of course those benchmarks are in no way definitive and one would be a fool to say that x distro is faster than y distro based on those tests. All anyone can do in a review is say how their hardware configuration performed and what they liked or disliked. That's essentially what Baris did. People will read enough reviews to form their own opinion and then try a distro or 5. That's what I did. Or they will get a recommendation from one of the fine posters here who will install Linux on their computer and that will be Linux to them and they won't even know what a distro is.
Maybe there really is a way to give an empirical review of all distros and reveal once and for all which is the best one. When that happens we can all stop the debates and get on with improving our community.
260 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:06:57 GMT from United States)
There is nothing macho nor truthful about bashing someone for your amusement.
I didn't point out problems with this review for my amusement.
It is only childish and the sign of low intelligence.
This from someone who writes "Obnoxiuos Jerkus" and "I bet you can count your friends on one finger"??
261 • pruning philosophy (by Anonymous on 2007-12-06 23:09:58 GMT from Australia)
Just like a tree grows better with some pruning, the standard of this forum could be improved with some strong pruning of posts. At the moment people see a mix of thoughtful posts with put-downs and flamebait. So others jump in with retaliatory posts without thinking. If the forum was pruned so that there were no put-downs or flamebait and only thoughtful posts being present than others would also think first before making rash posts.
262 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:18:24 GMT from United States)
The benchmarks I was referring to in the article are the measurements for boot to log in, boot to desktop, transfer speed from USB memory stick, time to print.
Unless benchmarks are carefully constructed and controls are maintained, these numbers depend heavily on specifics of the hardware used, installation options, how long the system has been up and what was done so far .... e.g., on USB memory stick transfer speed, all we are given is a single number apparently representing a single trial. The difference in numbers could simply reflect normal variation; for all we know, we would see the same variation if the same number of transfers had been performed on a single system. Unless the testing methodology is valid, the results are useless, and no amount of bleating about tone will change that.
263 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:21:39 GMT from United States)
If the forum was pruned so that there were no put-downs or flamebait
Like "a perfect example of a person with a complete inability to communicate effectively online with other human beings"? The pruner would have to be objective and unbiased, which isn't going to happen here.
264 • Re 255 (by john frey on 2007-12-06 23:22:59 GMT from Canada)
"This is supposed to be a plae for people to get info about distros, not a place for drama queens to put on their acts."
So why don't you stop your act Queenie? I'm sorry to say I can't give you the same treatment as everyone else on this site deserves. Hopefully by the time you become an adult you will learn that how you say something is as important as what you say. We all have feelings (yes even you) and we all deserve to have those feelings respected (no you're not included. Why? You have no respect for others feelings.) I understand the appeal of your very narrow minded view but I'm afraid in the real world we have to deal with messy people who respond with feeling. What your going through is a phase and you will grow out of it (I hope)
265 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:25:41 GMT from United States)
So why don't you stop your act Queenie?
Ah, the drama goes on.
266 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:29:41 GMT from United States)
Here's a clue for you, John: Show your #254 to any of your friends, without telling them who wrote it, and see what they have to say about it.
267 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:30:45 GMT from United States)
Oops, I meant #264, silly me.
268 • @231 -- Ariszló (by winsnomore on 2007-12-06 23:33:09 GMT from United States)
i have used Gnome terminal .. it doesn't compare with Konsole .. may be it it's a matter of preference ..I also do like Konqueror more than nautilus .. and i can go on and on ..
269 • re 266 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-06 23:38:32 GMT from United States)
Actually, aside from calling you a name (which is uncalled for), most of post 264 makes a valid point. You have no/very little respect for others, you think you're right, and you don't know when to stop, you keep on picking away. You should also be banned.
270 • @269 (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:45:17 GMT from United States)
Snore. If you have anything of substance to say about linux distros, benchmarks, comparisons, etc.. please do.
271 • Stop all Reviews! (by welkiner on 2007-12-06 23:46:41 GMT from United States)
Based on the obviously superior knowledge of the critics of this weeks review, we should halt all reviews of Linux (and BSD) distributions, until, and unless, each review can be conducted in an objective manner on all existing distributions, using all known hardware configurations...and should be conducted only in a board certified laboratory by a board certified reviewer.
Anything short of this would obviously be subjective and of dubious value.
Who would control this cerification board?
That's obvious too! The Truth Machine
272 • No subject (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:48:55 GMT from United States)
you think you're right
I'm always amused by this sort of blatantly hypocritical comment ... as if the person writing it doesn't think they are right. People who make claims that they don't think are right are called liars. The rest of us stick to only saying things we actually do happen to think are right.
273 • @271 (by truth machine on 2007-12-06 23:53:12 GMT from United States)
Anything short of this would obviously be subjective and of dubious value.
Well yes, that is obvious, and so people shouldn't base decisions on comparisons made via unreliable test methodologies.
All the snark in the world does nothing to refute the criticisms.
274 • re 272 (by Anonymous on 2007-12-07 00:02:06 GMT from United States)
Well, you are right about that, but you continue to prove our points. You are quite arrogant, you seem to enjoy arguing/agitating people, and are not worth continuing this conversation with (and I bet you'll post yet another arrogant comment criticizing this post as well, again, proving our points). That being said, maybe this nonsense will stop, 'cause I'm not contributing to it anymore. Ladislav has enough to deal with without this nonsense.
275 • @ Truth Machine (by welkiner on 2007-12-07 00:20:24 GMT from United States)
You really don't understand. Do you?
As other posters have stated, "It's not What you say, but how you say it."
Why do you post here?
Is it to affect other people's opinions?
If so, don't you realize that your posts will have a lesser affect, because many of us will simply ignore all of your posts because of you vindictive attitude.
I wish you well,
276 • RE 259 - probably my fault (by KimTjik on 2007-12-07 00:47:24 GMT from Sweden)
(If you refer to me when writing "it was so hard to say that without reverting to sarcasm or some other form of abuse", I apologize, because no sentence was intended to come through like that.)
I read your post several times and it struck me that in some way you're saying what I tried to say, but lacked the ability to say. You see the only problem I have in this occasion is the status of DW. It could be I'm mistaken, but as I wrote earlier I get the impression that more folks use DW as a reference. Hence it put DW in a more sensitive position compared to reviews found on many other sites. The one I quoted in post # 232 isn't more than a personal blog, why it can be as subjective as he/she wants it to be. My impression is that DW aims at being above such standards, hence every article has to be scrutinized even more thoroughly. As I said: it could be me misunderstanding the situation.
I did read the review and its benchmarks very carefully. If I couldn't explain my thoughts about it in earlier posts, I'll probably fail again. I will not pretend to be something I'm not and I think some of my posts get to hazy, and lack skill enough to convey my thoughts.
Cheers everyone and I wish you all a good weekend! For me it's enough for this week (making too much fool of myself :) ).
277 • 276 • RE 259 - probably my fault (by john frey on 2007-12-07 01:28:40 GMT from Canada)
(If you refer to me when writing "it was so hard to say that without reverting to sarcasm or some other form of abuse", I apologize, because no sentence was intended to come through like that.)
I was referring to how difficult it was for me to respond civilly rather than to lose my temper. It seems to be 2nd nature, when communicating on the net is difficult, to put the other down rather than try to get constructive dialogue happening. So it was my failing I was referring to, not yours. A good weekend to you too.:)
278 • tone (by simon on 2007-12-07 08:42:15 GMT from New Zealand)
256 > 'Mature, effective people don't get all hung up on "tone".'
well, i'm sure you're right that mature and effective people don't get "all hung up" on the emotional tone of their communications, but they're certainly aware that it's important. maybe the hostility in linux-related forums is partly because so many of us are geeks, and so many geeks are more competent with logic than emotions. it's a nice geek fantasy that the ideal human communication is a kind of data transfer without emotion getting in there and corrupting the signal, but sadly (for such geeks) we're not computers! so it seems to me that management of emotional tone is an important part of effective communication, and the people who are arguing for respectful language are basically arguing for more effective communcation.
279 • Qu 268 (by dbrion on 2007-12-07 14:55:46 GMT from France)
"i have used Gnome terminal .. it doesn't compare with Konsole .. "
But it often works satisfyingly...., else, a quarter of the professional linux users would be unemployed (though I prefer KDE, this is purely subjective). If you have a buggy version of KDE/Gnome, will you buy Vista?
280 • Misc Time scales and fruits TM "apples and oranges" (by dbrion on 2007-12-07 15:25:29 GMT from France)
re 237
See post 211, " Thanks for linking this week post 211 to http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20061002, for temporal consistency!!!! (two lucid linux contributors were human, too!!! nobody wept for ban.....)
Truth Machine is right being sarcastic about colors, as pple may be color blind and printing gets more expensive. Thuis is why even an R package (thus, a debian package) exists, called dichromat. In the last centuryu, reviewers could (I fdear they go on) be very unpleasant (not kindly sarcastic!) with poor publishers (or perishers), if the colors were unuseful.
Knowing whether there is *anything* reproducible in a GRAND review (thus leading to decisions or recommendations to beginners?When it comes to decisions/ recommandations, it is no more a matter of being kind... else, what is the use?))
What is the definition of a newbie? Is there one ?
What is the definition of easiness?(colored figures were based on?)
Is the "review" based on clearly defined concepts?
281 • Fedora package manager hate (by Nick on 2007-12-07 16:09:55 GMT from United States)
Is there a distribution that doesn't run the risk of breakage when you mix and match the official repos with third-party repos? I fail to see why user choice/error becomes the burden of the Fedora dev team.
282 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-12-07 16:56:21 GMT from Canada)
Pc-bsd 1.4.1 WOW -
Teen pup - an offshoot of puppy linux is fantastic , well done!
283 • Truth Machine (by Anonymous on 2007-12-07 17:22:50 GMT from United States)
Just a troll
See:
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=3127
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/wikiconspiracy.php
http://amasci.com/weird/flamer.html
Remember Kids, don't feed the troll!
284 • R #283 (by gelnn on 2007-12-07 18:10:04 GMT from Canada)
Yeah, that boy gets around I see.
285 • Re Review (by roadie on 2007-12-07 19:03:08 GMT from Canada)
The comments deriding the review are really quite ridiculous.
It's just a review, one person's opinion about the distro's he tried, whether he's a seasoned Linux veteran or a "newbee", it's still just his opinion.
He's entitled to his opinion. Nobody else has to follow it, I mean really, do you need someone else to tell you which distro is the best for you?
The only time a review is problematic is when a spiteful or unprofessional tone is injected into it and I saw no evidence of that in this one.
Properly conducted reviews are good for giving direction to new users in picking a distro they might want to try on their shiny new lappy, or the old doorstop, tho the odds are just as good they will just check out the PHR and grab one of the top three.
But taking a review and picking it apart and crying foul because distro A or B was'nt included is rather silly. Sure, I'd like to see a good review on DWW using Slackware, but it's not gonna destroy me if I don't. Slackware is not for the fainthearted anyway, odds are you'll need the CLI. (My opinion only of course.)
The real problem with reviews is the consternation caused by anonymous posting, in that some posters, (read trolls) come in and trash the comments area with ridiculous garbage, picking one line or word from someone else's comment and gleefully tearing it apart.
These people must spend a great deal of time reading every comment and writing down every one liner or punctual mistake they find in order to build their arsenal. Reactions to their posts simply gives them more ammunition.
They apparently have no interest whatsoever in creating meaningful, constructive dialog. It seems they want only to destroy, force their opinions on others, feed their egos. Sad indeed.
I personally think that allowing anonymous posting is ludicrous, it simply invites and encourages this behavior. The trolls hide behind the wall of and spew out the crap. Taking that wall down would be a good step in maintaining the reputation that DW has as an excellent informative site.
As things stand now, I believe that DW is fast losing that reputation and instead gaining a reputation of being a site that features a review and follow up comments full of bashing, insults, and ridiculous, immature attacks on things like a poster's signature.
I've been visiting DW on a regular basis for over seven years, since I first began my foray into Linux. It's only recently that I've come to the comments area and I was really surprised to see the level of intelligence displayed in it by some posters. Surprised that behavior like that was tolerated.
Has it always been like this?
I realize that ladislav has his hands full just creating the content of the site and maintaining it, and I don't believe the fault lies solely on him. The community has a responsibility to police itself too, I mean if you want the comments area to be a place to go for information, technical advise, etc:, then you have to help keep it clean. Throw the garbage out....... Don't feed the trolls.
Have a nice day.
roadie
286 • RE: 285 • Re Review (by johncoom on 2007-12-07 23:31:01 GMT from Australia)
RE: I personally think that allowing anonymous posting is ludicrous
Here here, that makes at least two if us !
I am sure that many others would agree ?
Plus lots of people think this a forum :-(
Where as in reality it is just comments !
287 • Re #285 #286 (by Glenn on 2007-12-08 01:02:53 GMT from Canada)
Three.... Notice? :-)
I have sometimes refered to it as a forum unfortunately .. You caught me on that one. I know it is just a comments area but judging from the dialogs in here, it certainly resembles a forum .
While we are at it. I was intrigued by the distro geubuntu so gave it a try.
The install is pretty standard, took me 10 minutes on my TP60, 2gb, 1.5gz IPW3945 wireless and has radeon 1400. HW recognition was right on. The desktop is XFCE with Enlightenment 17 mapped on to it. It has to be the prettiest out-of -the-box deskop I've seen yet. Not that I'd want to work with it all the time because it would be too hard on the eyes... I installed the VPN tunneling I needed for my work and so far it has all worked nicely. On the home page for the distro they warn you that it is not bug free and it does have a few quirks but no show stoppers
It takes a bit of getting used to enlightenment but this is pretty easy to navigate. Left mouse button gets you the menu of applications etc. like you would see in the start menus. Right mouse button is what you would see on the kicker or panels. The kicker panel is called a Shelf in this distro and is actually one of the nicest I have worked with. Well you have to give me a break because it is like a new toy for me but it certainly is very impressive. It is a departure from the normal Gnome/KDE desktop presenttions and a really nice one. My personal feeling is that GOS and even Elive are outclassed by this distro which is designed by an Italian artist, not a geek... The geeks put his ideas into a gorgeous remaster , distro, what ever.
Response times when starting and running apps are very reasonable so there should be no loud complaints about it being slow.
What I really liked though is that the AMD ATI drivers are now in the Ubuntu repositiories.
Sorry about slipping this in. I doubt anybody will read it anyway it is too close for the next edition in the continuing drama of whose distro is best. :-) I just thought I'd toss in a comment so you have something to read across the weekend *chuckle*.
Have a good weekend
Glenn
288 • @283 (by memena on 2007-12-08 04:15:53 GMT from Philippines)
Ew. No wonder he and dbrion gets along. :)
289 • RE: 287 about Geubuntu (by IMQ on 2007-12-08 05:59:26 GMT from United States)
It's a nice desktop, a different stroke from the usual GNOME and KDE.
I changed the theme and wallpaper after a couple of hours on the default settings, just too hard to read the menu entries.
No problems installing additional packages although I haven't tested them all to see if they run.
The system has been running OK for hours now, although I ran into minor glitches here and there. In fact, I am writing this comment from Geubuntu. :)
I think I keep the system around for a while to see how thing changes in the coming months.
290 • RE What title would you give to a car review (by dbrion on 2007-12-08 09:31:16 GMT from France)
Where only the right front door would be tested ? A GRAND review?
291 • @285: Can you define "anonymous" (by [soŋtsɛn kampo] on 2007-12-08 12:04:54 GMT from Malaysia)
"The real problem with reviews is the consternation caused by anonymous posting, in that some posters, (read trolls) come in and trash the comments area with ridiculous garbage, picking one line or word from someone else's comment and gleefully tearing it apart... I personally think that allowing anonymous posting is ludicrous, it simply invites and encourages this behavior. The trolls hide behind the wall of and spew out the crap."
Are you referring to any of these posts: 113,118,120,121,124,128, 242, 243, 244, 245, 255, 256, 257, 258, 260, 262, 263, 265, 266, 267, 270, 272, 273?
None of these posts is by an anonymous poster. However, "Truth Machine" is obviously a pseudonym (as is "roadie"), and most comments in DW could therefore be considered anonymous. The fact that I am able to post as soŋtsɛn kampo or any other name I choose ....
292 • @285 (by is 'roadie' an alias? on 2007-12-08 12:06:50 GMT from Malaysia)
... suggests that you need to define what you mean by "anonymous posting".
293 • geubuntu (by Glenn at 2007-12-08 13:08:00 GMT from Canada)
Hi.
I feel the same. i will keep it around for a while also to see where it goes. I like the uniqueness of it....
I addded my own VPN tunneling package to it, added additional repositories and installed Lotus notes, WINE, and a few products like that I need for my company use. They all work fine but then they work with other Debian based distros/remasters. Since I wrote the comment above I installed geubuntu on my GIGABYTE SLI AMD64 Dual core esystem. That system has an ATI RADEON HD2600 XT.
I had no problem with the hardware recognition although I will have to do a bit of XORG editing to fully exploit the resolution range of my Samsung 206B wide screen LCD.
I notice that open office is not installed with geubuntu but is replace by Abiword and gnumeric. I like that. .
Funny, Firefox comes packaged in with the distro but the Java plugin is not installed. I guess they overlooked that, it is still a work-in-progress apparently.
Overall I would give this a good reference and tell others to give it a try, even just for the novelty of it. It is a beautiful eye catching distro and I never thought i would ever say that about an Ubuntu based system. :-)
glenn .
294 • 291 292 soŋtsɛn kampo (by Dubigrasu on 2007-12-08 13:20:36 GMT from Romania)
By posting under a valid email adress,URL or at least a constant alias like ..."welkiner" does for example, you are assuming a bit of responsability for what you are saying. Of course that allmost all of us we are posting anonymously (Dubigrasu is my dog's name in fact...yeah, laugh if you want!) but even if I choose to post under "DarthVader" alias and keep it that way, I am assuming that bit of responsability, people can form an opinion about me and I just can't "spew out the crap".
I really don't think that roadie was talking about you (if you are the same with "Anonymous...from Malaysia",so no need to be upset, but you have to agree with him about trolls and the bad service they are doing to Distrowatch lately.
All the best...
295 • 292 Somre terms need to be defined (by dbrion on 2007-12-08 14:09:02 GMT from France)
in a "review", too.
"Popularity" is a bad choice criterium (cf Germany, 1933, Austria, 1938) .Else the review would reduce to ... a vowel (not a rating even the title is unadequate).
It would be a nice Christmas gift (and for the other days of any year) if a review was on
rational bases,
did not hide behind / insult a serious methodology
and that the figures given, if any, were cross validated.
I am very glad to be very negative with gangrena, bad reviews, and other forms of crookery which can be misleading (cf here, post 236) or time consuming....
FYI
In any serious paper, and any domain, instructions to the authors/ anonymous rereaders (proof -checkers are anonymous, spend some free time -witrhout violin playing!- warranting minimal quality standards to readers) are given.
OTOH, there is a nice review about Paldo Linux (once it is a binary live CD, this distribution may be comfortable and teach something).
296 • RE #294 (by Glenn on 2007-12-08 14:32:45 GMT from Canada)
Hi
For some reason participants in this comment section of distro watch respond readily to trolls whether the trolls use anonymity or not.
As was pointed out by johncoom earlier, this is not a forum but a comments section. It is primarily unmoderated and the topics of discussion can and do wander all over the map.. That can be very instructive, it is also an open door to trolls. Rather than complaining about somebodys post (they may be having a bad moment and said things they were too hasty in posting) we should just look at the content of the post and not take offence. dbrion seems to have that capability but not many do. One may criticize a posting constructively as some respondents did regarding Baris' review which is fine. Others attacked it but offered no input as to what they would like to see in future. Baris gave a good starting point to launch discussions regarding his tests, I hope the resulting fallout does not discourage others nor him from doing it again. Baris obviously spent a lot of time and effort to share his observations with us. Then trolling started and the focus of this weeks dialog shifted to personal attacks. That igniting of flames is the stock in trade for a troll. I think that because we have no real moderator we should moderate ourselves and refrain from participating in a nasty exchange that gets started up. In summary we can blame the trolls, we can also blame ourselves for encouraging them.
I hope this ramble makes sense. It is early morning and i am still waking up... :-)
Maybe i should follow your example and post under the name of a pet. i keep marine fish so if you see a post in here Balistoides conspicillum from Canada it will be me... :-) :-)
Have a nice weekend
Glenn
297 • Alternative (by Frantisek on 2007-12-08 15:13:37 GMT from Canada)
To all the Linux people, another good hobby system to consider is FreeBSD. If enough people can join the ranks, maybe we'll get Flash too!
298 • 296 Balistoides conspicillum (by Dubigrasu on 2007-12-08 15:28:37 GMT from Romania)
"we should moderate ourselves"
Don't worry,makes a LOT of sense.Like roadie said:Don't feed the trolls.Feed the marine fish instead!:-) Oh, and watch for the cat!
Now get up and smell the coffeeeee...
299 • @295 The Proof of the Pudding (by memena on 2007-12-08 15:31:32 GMT from Philippines)
You could submit a review to Ladislav that hopefully passes those stringent criteria, you know. An early Christmas gift to all DW readers.
We promise to be gentle. :-D
300 • Well?? (by Geoff on 2007-12-08 15:55:30 GMT from United States)
What's the linux finished product?
It has been many years of development.
What should I download or buy for my laptop? What has all this time and energy led up to?
Not a "troll!" I really do want to know what to put on my new laptop.
301 • Re: The lot of you up there review dissers (by memena on 2007-12-08 15:55:43 GMT from Philippines)
Be polite enough to point out the things you did like in his review *before* trashing it.
Be mature enough to moderate yourself. Be civil, be intelligible, be interesting and knowledgeable. You could do without the last two, but - call me nit picky here - failure at the first two == troll.
302 • RE: 293 (by IMQ on 2007-12-08 17:09:00 GMT from United States)
Hi Glenn,
Are you using the open-source driver for your ATI?
I am running Geubuntu on a PC with a Radeon 9600 Pro with the open-source driver because it work with the *Visual Effects* setting. When I tried the ATI proprietary driver under Ubuntu via *Restrictive Driver Manager* program, the *Visual Effect* was not available! Not even for *Normal* mode. I was surprised that it did not work. I even reboot to make sure. Then I switch back to the *ati* one.
Since I don't play games that require all the juice the video card can produce, I am fine with the *ati* driver.
I only have 2 machines with ATI-based cards (the other is a Radeon 9200 SE), the rest of my machines has one version of nVidia-based video card or another. I can generally get nVidia driver to work, but not a lot of luck with ATI.
Just curious how well the ATI proprietary driver works out for you.
Have a great week-end!
303 • RE #302 (by Glenn on 2007-12-08 17:33:56 GMT from Canada)
Hiya IMQ.
Funny you should mention that.... i m using the proprietary driver on the TP60 with the ATI 1400 but I had to revert to the open source driver on the AMD64 with the radeon 2600xt. The open source driver works great. In fact I just installed it for the same reason you did. I got it from the ATI site & compiled it. Bit of an annoyance but I really wanted to explore this distro in a bit more depth.
I am planning to crossfire the radeon 2600s in my SLI system but have not dared to try that yet.
Have a great weekend also.
Glenn . .
304 • Covers... (by ElCuervo on 2007-12-09 01:45:18 GMT from United States)
["It's the opposite: PClinuxOS re-use the code written by Mandriva."
If that is true, how come Mandriva isn't number one instead?! (confused)]
Who really cares? Check out some of the covers of Howlin' Wolf songs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howlin'_Wolf
Some of them rock my world, others not so much, and there will always be only one Howlin' Wolf. Great is great...
Thanks for a great site, Ladislav. Your efforts are greatly appreciated by many people in the community and the fame of DW is well-deserved.
305 • RE 300 Well? (by Glenn on 2007-12-09 02:15:51 GMT from Canada)
Hi Jeff.
That is not an easy one to answer. What is your laptop? Not all Linux distros work on all laptops. What do you expect from Linux? A windows clone or close to windows? I can suggest several distros but that would waste your time and patience if it is a wrong guess. For me, there are 4 important things when choosing a linux distro..... 1. Hardware recognition. Does it recognize all your hardware? 2. Functionality. Does the distro have the functions you require and do they work properly. 3. Are packges/products/fixes easy to obtain and install without resorting to becoming a geek? 4. Performance. Does the distro perform within expectations. It does not have to be greased lightning but should perform well on your system.
Anyway, to start,,, what is your Laptop?
Glenn .
306 • Linux for new laptop (by Geoff on 2007-12-09 15:47:19 GMT from United States)
Acer Aspire 5610Z with 2Gb RAM, 120Gb Hard Drive, Intel 945 Graphics, Broadcom Wireless Card (the router I want to connect to at home is a Belkin G Plus MIMO connected to a Linksys card in the pc).
It's got a 1280x800 "wide screen" monitor.
I need to watch news videos on CNN, Foxnews and CBS News. I need to be able to download and burn CDs and DVDs. Other than surfing the internet real fast, that's all I need.
307 • RE #306 (by Glenn on 2007-12-09 18:09:05 GMT from Canada)
Hi Geoff.
Thanks for the update.
I am assuming you are running windows Vista and would prefer to remain with a desktop presentation that somewhat resembles what you are familiar with. Alsoi I am assuming you are not intending to become a Linux Geek at this time and do manual configurations, that leaves out SLACK based distros at this time for me, at least the ones I know.
I think any of the following would be a good choice to start with.
Simply Mephis
This distro is debian based and is excellent for newbies starting into Linux. It is easy to install and it will recognize your hardware, It will leave you with a KDE desktop that you will be reasonably comfortable with, Support is very good in their forums. If for some reason this distro becomes obsolete, you can fall back to using another Debian based distro with the KDE desktop presentation manager. Adding/updating packages is very easy. Very stable system.
PCLinuxOS.
This is a nice linux to start with. It is easy to install, will recognize your hardware, leave you with a desktop you should be reasonably comfortable with. It uses KDE as its desktop presentation manager. Support is very good in their forums, it is a derivative of Mandriva so if for some reason this distro becomes dorman you can fall back to Mandriva and remain in famiiar territory RPM wise. Adding/updating packages is quite easy. Very stable system.
Linux Mint
This distro is Ubuntu based (Ubuntu in turn is Debian based) and is also an excellent starter Linux. The desktop presentation Manager however is Gnome which will be a bit of a departure from what you are familiar with but not too far. KDE can be added. This distro will recognize your hardware, is easy to install, and has access to Ubuntu and Debian repositories. A huge assortment of packages. It has some nice features also which make it user friendly. Support is very good in their forums and you can always look at the Ubuntu Wiki and support forums.. Adding/updating packages is very easy. This is a very stable system also
All the above systems perform quite well and will not disappoint you. All the above include firefox with the appropriate plugins/codecs to cater to your media requirements. This includes Java plugin which, if you are new to Linux is a bit of a learning curve to install.
I will get shot at here for not mentioning the BIG distros such as Fedora, Mandriva, Suze, Ubuntu. (or Kubuntu) or others.
Also the list I presented is very small compared to the plethora of distros available.
Well you can of course elect to choose one of them also. The reason I selected the ones I did is that somebody has gone to a lot of work to customize the options you would normally want to change. It reduces your needing to be a bit of a geek. :-)
I presume you have not partitioned your hard drive yet so i have a suggestion...
Why not download and install Virtualbox on your windows. You can use it to test linux distros safely and without remapping your harddrive. Basically Virtualbox will set up a psuedo machine under windows and you can install a linux distro and actually run it as if it were running in a real partition on your harddrive. Virtualbox is easy to use which is why I am suggesting it. There are others which are probably better but they require a lot of knowledge and customizing. I use virtualbox to view the cosmetics and functionality of distros that i am interested in. If I like one then I install it for real on my HDD. You cannot rely on it to verify the Distros H/W detection ability.
This will be the last entry I will make in here.
Should you wish to yak it over via emails contact me.My link points to real email address. .In your subjecy line put Distro - Geoff so I know to tell my spambot not to junk it...
I know others have suggestions they would have preferred me to make and perhaps they have even better choices than i gave you.I just remained with what I knew and what I considered easy starts which can become your primary Linux if you so choose.
We gotta start somewhere. :-) :-)
Glenn
308 • @290 (by Warp0 on 2007-12-09 19:14:52 GMT from United States)
"290 • What title would you give to a car review where only the right front door would be tested ? A GRAND review? (by dbrion on 2007-12-08 09:31:16 GMT from France)"
Poor analogy. Better would be a car review that didn't include every car made in the entire world in 2007. You see many car reviews that include every car made in the entire world in their review?
309 • Geubuntu and its md5sum (by Fractalguy on 2007-12-09 20:55:30 GMT from United States)
I see a few posts about Geubuntu. I tried it this last week and found it to be a nice competitor to elive. However I was not able to easily open my VFAT hard disk partitions, only USB. Now since VFAT has no ownership controls these should be open to the Linux users, even if in live CD mode.
It may be possible some problem is in the CD I burned since it failed the built-in check sums for two filers. The Geubuntu site offers no md5sum (this should mean disqualification for listing on distrowatch, but what do I know).
Would one of you who have a good copy of Geubuntu md5sum please post it? Thanks.
I also played with antiX and Shift-Linux (fluxbox). I found no way to install antiX, so that is a screw up, methinks.
And Shift-Linux: no sound card was detected, Xorg was very slow to config, no USB thumbs were to be found and I had to use sudo to reboot.
Too bad, I really wanted to test antiX on an old win98 box with only 32MB of RAM next week. I wonder if it will even boot on such a box. Is DSL the only Linux that will boot in 32MB in lice CD mode?
310 • antiX (by anticapitalista on 2007-12-09 22:56:05 GMT from Greece)
#309
antiX-M7 (Lysistrata) uses a .686 kernel so will not boot on k5/k6 and some PII/MMX. antiX-Mepis6.5 (Spartacus) should boot ok.
antiX is not meant to be a super-lite distro like DSL. It aims at those with 128RAM, though, once installed, it works okish with 64MB plus swap.
Will antiX even boot with 32MB RAM? I have tested in virtualbox and on my box setting mem=32MB and it didn't, and that was from a frugal/fromiso image on hard-disk.
311 • Re: 307 Nice brief overview for beginners (by awong on 2007-12-10 00:37:18 GMT from Canada)
Glenn,
Another nice quick overview for beginners. I wish I had something like that to read when I started out. Having said that, after trying out all the popular distros, I can concur with your top 3 choices for beginners.
Cheers.
312 • RE: 309 (by IMQ on 2007-12-10 01:22:16 GMT from United States)
Hi Fractalguy,
I generated the md5sum by running:
md5sum geubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso > geubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso.md5
on Geubuntu 7.10 ISO image I downloaded and got this:
f6f4c6e6c6e784cfa2e52a9cad0f7a97 geubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386.iso
313 • RE: 307 There was a typo (by IMQ on 2007-12-10 01:28:27 GMT from United States)
It shoud be MEPIS, not MEPHIS.
314 • RE #309 RE 313 (by Glenn on 2007-12-10 02:13:13 GMT from Canada)
Hi Fractal guy.
They do say on the website that geubuntu will have some hiccups. Maybe you hit one? Look at your /ETC/FSTAB and see if your partition is actually specifying VFAT for that partition. Probbly is but worth a peek anyway.
For small distro youmay want to give Puppy a try, I'd use Puppy version 109ce though. that has an older kernel and may recognize your system and run on it. Maybe if you set up a tiny SWAP partition?
#313 IMQ.,
Oooopppsss!... My fingers seem to have a mind of their own at times... Thank you for catching that and issuing a correction.
Glenn
315 • Dang more typos. (by Glenn on 2007-12-10 02:16:41 GMT from Canada)
read above
/ETC/FSTAB and see if your partition is actually specifying VFAT for that partition. Probbly is but worth a peek
as
/etc/fstab and see if your partition is actually specified as VFAT . Probably is but worth a peek,
My A key and Space bar stick . Not bad for a 2 week old Keyboard.
316 • 300 Geoff (by Dubigrasu on 2007-12-10 06:30:07 GMT from Romania)
Hi Geoff
I see that except Glenn, no one bothers to answer so I will add to his list Freespire. It comes with almost allready installed and works pretty good.Also (I'm taking a big risk here),you can try Linspire or Xandros but you have to pay from those. Be aware that they signed the pact with the devil (you know who that is) and they are not very welcome among Linux community lately.But Xandros at least is doing a great job by smoothing the transition from Windos to Linux. It helped me a lot some time ago to feel not so lost in Linux world.
This is for your information only as there are a lot of good alternatives (see the "Glenn's GrandMiniReview" above).
And yes...I'm a Mandriva user and I feel compeled to add Madriva to the list...
Hope that you will enjoy Linux whatever distro you'll choose!
317 • Ooops! (by Dubigrasu on 2007-12-10 07:29:16 GMT from Romania)
...It comes with almost everything already installed...Sorry!
318 • RE 308 (by dbrion on 2007-12-10 09:50:00 GMT from France)
"Poor analogy. Better would be a car review that didn't include every car made in the entire world in 2007. You see many car reviews that include every car made in the entire world in their review"
But if it forgot essential parts?
with a caricature of methodology?
Is car consumption uninteresting?
* the "author" of the GRAND "review forgot:
a) hibernation/ power consumption aspects on laptops (it is usefull, you know!).
b) a thorough disk speed testing (hdparms?)
c) many other things any serious proofchecker would have thought of , thus giving this "review" minimalist substance....
FYI I sometimes proofcheck, in an uninteresting domain (w//r GNU/linux) , so that readers do not feel too much swindled.
319 • RE #318 (by Glenn on 2007-12-10 10:08:03 GMT from Canada)
Hi dbrion.
But what you are proposing sounds more like a hardware review than software. Maybe I interpreted your meaning incorrectly?
Please forgive it is very early in the am where I live so I am not too brilliant yet. :-)
Glenn
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| • Issue 1058 (2024-02-19): Drauger OS 7.6, how much disk space to allocate, System76 prepares to launch COSMIC desktop, UBports changes its version scheme, TrueNAS to offer faster deduplication |
| • Issue 1057 (2024-02-12): Adelie Linux 1.0 Beta, rolling release vs fixed for a smoother experience, Debian working on 2038 bug, elementary OS to split applications from base system updates, Fedora announces Atomic Desktops |
| • Issue 1056 (2024-02-05): wattOS R13, the various write speeds of ISO writing tools, DSL returns, Mint faces Wayland challenges, HardenedBSD blocks foreign USB devices, Gentoo publishes new repository, Linux distros patch glibc flaw |
| • Issue 1055 (2024-01-29): CNIX OS 231204, distributions patching packages the most, Gentoo team presents ongoing work, UBports introduces connectivity and battery improvements, interview with Haiku developer |
| • Issue 1054 (2024-01-22): Solus 4.5, comparing dd and cp when writing ISO files, openSUSE plans new major Leap version, XeroLinux shutting down, HardenedBSD changes its build schedule |
| • Issue 1053 (2024-01-15): Linux AI voice assistants, some distributions running hotter than others, UBports talks about coming changes, Qubes certifies StarBook laptops, Asahi Linux improves energy savings |
| • Issue 1052 (2024-01-08): OpenMandriva Lx 5.0, keeping shell commands running when theterminal closes, Mint upgrades Edge kernel, Vanilla OS plans big changes, Canonical working to make Snap more cross-platform |
| • Issue 1051 (2024-01-01): Favourite distros of 2023, reloading shell settings, Asahi Linux releases Fedora remix, Gentoo offers binary packages, openSUSE provides full disk encryption |
| • Issue 1050 (2023-12-18): rlxos 2023.11, renaming files and opening terminal windows in specific directories, TrueNAS publishes ZFS fixes, Debian publishes delayed install media, Haiku polishes desktop experience |
| • Issue 1049 (2023-12-11): Lernstick 12, alternatives to WINE, openSUSE updates its branding, Mint unveils new features, Lubuntu team plans for 24.04 |
| • Issue 1048 (2023-12-04): openSUSE MicroOS, the transition from X11 to Wayland, Red Hat phasing out X11 packages, UBports making mobile development easier |
| • Issue 1047 (2023-11-27): GhostBSD 23.10.1, Why Linux uses swap when memory is free, Ubuntu Budgie may benefit from Wayland work in Xfce, early issues with FreeBSD 14.0 |
| • Issue 1046 (2023-11-20): Slackel 7.7 "Openbox", restricting CPU usage, Haiku improves font handling and software centre performance, Canonical launches MicroCloud |
| • Issue 1045 (2023-11-13): Fedora 39, how to trust software packages, ReactOS booting with UEFI, elementary OS plans to default to Wayland, Mir gaining ability to split work across video cards |
| • Full list of all issues |
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| Random Distribution | 
Trisquel GNU/Linux
Trisquel GNU/Linux is a 100% libre Ubuntu-based Linux distribution. Its main purpose is to provide an operating system for varied audience, including home and office users, educational institutions, multimedia workstations, etc. The project is managed by independent developers and is partially funded by donations.
Status: Active
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| TUXEDO |
TUXEDO Computers - Linux Hardware in a tailor made suite
Choose from a wide range of laptops and PCs in various sizes and shapes at TUXEDOComputers.com. Every machine comes pre-installed and ready-to-run with Linux. Full 24 months of warranty and lifetime support included!
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| Star Labs |
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the highly anticipated StarFighter. Available with coreboot open-source firmware and a choice of Ubuntu, elementary, Manjaro and more. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
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