| DistroWatch Weekly
|DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 220, 17 September 2007
Welcome to this year's 38th issue of DistroWatch Weekly! DistroWatch has a new Number One distribution and it's called PCLinuxOS. But how is it possible that this small, little-known project, built mostly by one enthusiastic developer, has reached the height that eludes many of the more famous and better established distributions? Keep reading to find out. In the news section: Ubuntu technical team votes for CompizFusion by default, openSUSE continues to show faith in KDE 4.0, Debian looks at new features in X.Org 7.3 and 7.4, Ulteo launches new beta releases, and Linux Mint develops a new update tool - mintUpdate. Finally, don't miss our featured article that introduces MACH BOOT, a Linux live CD that boots into a graphical desktop in as little as 10 seconds! Happy reading!
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in ogg (7.0MB) and mp3 (6.8MB) formats (many thanks to Jim Putman)
Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
PCLinuxOS - the new Number One distribution
As many of you noticed, PCLinuxOS has overtaken Ubuntu in our Page Hit Ranking statistics and is currently occupying the top spot on the default 6-month view for the first time. Before contemplating on the reasons behind this "success", let me first serve the usual disclaimer. Being number one on DistroWatch does NOT mean that PCLinuxOS is the most popular distribution, nor does it mean that it is the best distribution; it simply means that during the past six months more people viewed the PCLinuxOS page on DistroWatch (on a one-IP-address-per-day basis) than pages devoted to any other distribution. Whether this translates into actual popularity or higher usage remains unclear, although it is reasonable to assume that new DistroWatch visitors are more likely to download one of the higher-ranked distributions than those occupying lower positions in the ranking.
There have been speculations and suggestions that the Page Hit Ranking statistics might have been manipulated by some overly enthusiastic PCLinuxOS fans. I don't believe so - for two reasons. Firstly, I have logged all visits to the PCLinuxOS page and analysed them for any signs of abuse, but I found none. (That's not to say that there was none, but if there was any, I couldn't find it.) Secondly, there seems to be a trend among the DistroWatch readers to visit distribution pages that are relatively high in the Page Hit Ranking statistics, but are otherwise not particularly well-known outside the scope of this web site; we have seen this not only with PCLinuxOS, but also with other similar distributions, such as Sabayon Linux and Linux Mint. Based on these two facts, everything seems fair and square and PCLinuxOS is on top simply because its page is the most visited one at the moment.
I wanted to use the occasion and publish an interview with Texstar, the founder and lead developer of PCLinuxOS, but disappointingly, he declined to talk to us. The closest thing to having him here is a quote from this thread on PCLinuxOS forum that talks about the status of PCLinuxOS as the new Number One on DistroWatch. Texstar: "What it all comes down to for me is I don't care if we are ranked #1 or #100 or even ranked at all for that matter. I will say it feels good to know that maybe I'm making a difference in helping people use their computers the way they want to use it. I just want to enjoy Linux technology and share it with friends who might like it too and try like hell to stay out of everyone else's way."
So congratulations to PCLinuxOS! If you haven't tried it yet, do give it a spin - it boots into a live CD mode with a graphical installer, it uses Mandriva's excellent Control Centre as a central configuration tool, and it is continuously updated with the latest software which can be installed via apt-get or Synaptic. All in all, a very nice distribution created by a developer who has at least 8 years of experience in building RPM packages and 4 years of experience in building a complete Linux distribution. In the world where many distros disappear after just a year or two of trying, it's nice to see this kind of persistence and never-ending effort from a guy who, perhaps apart from an occasional donation, doesn't get much more out of it than personal satisfaction. Well done, Tex!
(full image size: 157kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
MACH BOOT - a live CD that boots in 10 seconds
When Jun Okajima emailed me in April this year and asked me whether I'd be interested in beta testing his live CD, I was about to decline. I have barely enough time to keep up with 350+ distributions listed on DistroWatch, so there was no way I could possibly slot in any serious beta testing in between my normal work. But there was something in the email that suggested that MACH BOOT was unlike any other live CD I'd seen before - it was built to boot into a full graphical desktop in as little as 10 seconds!
The claim piqued my curiosity. I remember the last time I booted the KNOPPIX live DVD it took more than 5 minutes to get from the boot prompt to KDE. And although many live CDs available today boot much faster than that, none of them gets anywhere near the 10 second claim made by the developer of MACH BOOT. Needless to say, I did sign up for the (non-public) beta test, then waited with anticipation for the first live CD to download. Finally, after some 5 months of testing, the project released the first public ISO image demonstrating the new "mach boot" technology.
Although the CD never managed the promised 10 seconds on any of my test systems, the boot speeds were nevertheless impressive. On my 6-year old Pentium 4 box it takes 17 seconds to get from the GRUB boot prompt to the IceWM window manager. On the much newer Toshiba Satellite with Intel Dual Core T2300 processor the same takes 22 seconds. Mr Okajima himself has succeeded in reducing the boot speed on his test system to 10 seconds, while one of the beta testers apparently claimed that his machine was able to boot in astonishing 7.22 seconds! Besides booting, the CD also sets up the Ethernet card and xorg.conf, using the proper X driver (rather than vesa).
MACH BOOT is based on Debian and uses kernel 2.6.16. The graphical subsystem is powered by X.Org 7.0 and, as mentioned above, the window manager is IceWM (1.2.28). Besides the usual Debian tools and a handful of simple utilities, the only other software package worth mentioning is Mozilla Firefox (version 184.108.40.206).
I emailed Mr Okajima, asking him about the licence, availability of source code and status of patents (if any), but he declined to answer any of these questions: "These issues are being discussed with my business partners at this very moment. The answers will only be published after all negotiations are concluded." The developer of the MACH BOOT CD made it clear that he intended to monetise his invention in one way or another and was currently looking into various options. But aside from the business prospects of the project, one thing is clear - MACH BOOT, from a purely technological point of view, is a remarkable achievement. It is simply the fastest booting live CD by a considerable margin.
More information: http://www.machboot.com/
Direct download link: MB_20070911.ISO (241MB)
MACH BOOT - a fast-booting live CD
(full image size: 48kB, screen resolution: 1024x768 pixels)
Ubuntu shows faith in Compiz, openSUSE in KDE 4, Debian reveals X.Org plans, Ulteo and Linux Mint updates
Ubuntu has announced that the project's upcoming release, version 7.10 "Gutsy Gibbon", will ship with CompizFusion enabled by default - at least on hardware that supports 3D desktop features: "The Ubuntu Technical Board voted yesterday to ship Ubuntu 7.10 with Compiz enabled by default. Compiz is a compositing window manager that includes a number of highly sophisticated visual effects like window shadows, transparency, and desktop zooming. In the Tribe pre-releases, basic visual effects are enabled by default on supported hardware, and more sophisticated visual effects—like wobbling windows—can be enabled with a configuration utility. A compositing window manager was originally planned for inclusion in Ubuntu 7.04, but it was delayed because the software wasn't considered mature enough."
* * * * *
The recently released X.Org 7.3 has barely made it to download mirrors, but some distribution developers are already talking about the next major version - X.Org 7.4. This is the case with Debian GNU/Linux whose next release is tentatively scheduled for September 2008, some 6 months after the expected release of X.Org 7.4. As is often the case these days, the RandR and Composite features get all the attention: "People having Intel, ATI or recent NVIDIA boards learnt to love the RandR 1.2 extension which provides the ability to enable/disable, resize, rotate, move outputs within a single big virtual screen. More transformations should be possible with RandR 1.3. ... Compositing still gets a lot of attention. EXA (the new acceleration architecture that has been designed for compositing) got improved a lot in X server 1.4. Several drivers, including Intel and ATI r300, already work great with EXA which means Compiz works very smoothly, even when resizing windows. There are also several videos available online, like this one."
* * * * *
Another much anticipated event on the free software release calendar is KDE 4.0. Although most distributions seem to be having second thoughts on including it in their upcoming stable versions, the openSUSE project has been confidently shipping bits an pieces from KDE 4 in their recent beta releases and has stated that many of these will be included (and enabled by default) in openSUSE 10.3: "It has always been suggested that openSUSE would be among the earliest adopters of KDE 4, and the KDE team began working on this very early with a regularly updated KDE:KDE4 repository in the Build Service, allowing users to have an up-to-date development snapshot of KDE. With this repository Stephan Binner, another KDE developer at openSUSE, created the popular live CD 'KDE Four Live' using KIWI. The packages have been created so that you can seamlessly have both KDE 3 and KDE 4 applications installed and used by each user. The user's configuration files for KDE 4 applications are stored in ~/.kde4 to avoid any conflicts. The Oxygen style, though available, is not enabled by default."
* * * * *
Our last week's featured article contrasting the popularity fortunes of Ubuntu and Fedora have resulted in a few nasty comments in the forum, but Max Spevack, the Fedora project manager, was rather pragmatic on the subject: "To win a survey like the Dell or Lenovo one requires you to have lots of users, who care enough about the distribution to go and vote for it. But what does it actually MEAN to win a survey like that, from a corporate and financial point of view? Once you are talking about selling machines with a distro pre-installed on them, then someone, somewhere along the chain is getting paid something. The question is who makes the money, how much are they making, and what is the margin? By margin I mean 'how much money do you have to spend in order to make 1 dollar?' Are you spending 50 cents? 80 cents? 95 cents? And how do you make the margins tilt as far in your favor as possible?"
* * * * *
Some nine months have passed since the first public release of Ulteo, a promising, but somewhat mysterious distribution being built by the founder of Mandrake Linux, Gaël Duval. Has the project progressed since its initial release? Yes, says Gaël Duval in this blog post published last week: "Starting from now, we're going to progressively release several parts of the global Ulteo system, through closed beta, and then open beta programs. Many of the people who have subscribed will receive an invitation to test Ulteo. When we feel it's ready for production use, we will release the beta publicly. You will certainly enjoy each part as a standalone product because you will find that it delivers nice features and makes your digital life easier. But you will get the full meaning and benefits of our vision once all these components get interconnected. From now on, we will also post news about the project, on this blog." If you are interested in helping to beta test Ulteo, follow the instructions in this mailing list post.
* * * * *
Linux Mint, an increasingly popular, user-friendly distribution, is going full steam ahead with the development of its upcoming releases - Celena (3.1, based on Ubuntu "Feisty") and Daryna (4.0, based on Ubuntu "Gutsy"). One of the interesting new features in Daryna will be mintUpdate, a trouble-free software update tool that will replace Ubuntu's Update Manager: "A new tool called mintUpdate is being designed at the moment as a replacement to the Ubuntu Update Manager and its notifier. The purpose of this tool will be to give automatic security updates to users without letting them perform uneducated upgrades. In Cassandra and previous releases the Ubuntu Update Manager was bringing security updates but this could potentially break Linux Mint. In Celena, stability was improved and the Ubuntu Update Manager was removed. In Daryna we'll introduce mintUpdate and provide the best out of both worlds: stability and security."
|Released Last Week
A new version of KnoppMyth, a KNOPPIX-based distribution with the goal of simplifying the installation of GNU/Linux and MythTV, has been released: "I'm happy to announce the release of KnoppMyth R5F27. R5F27 includes the latest version of MythTV 0.20.2 fixes, in addition to other goodies that you've come to expect from KnoppMyth." From the changelog: "Changed sources to Etch; remove software suspend2 from kernel; updated V4L/DVB modules, MadWifi to 0.9.3.1, LIRC to 0.8.2-CVS, Webmin to 1.350; more updates for our Australian users; updated NVIDIA drivers (71xx, 96xx and 9755); updated NVIDIA installation scripts; updated MythWeb; added Myth2XviD and MythWebFlash; updated ffmpeg to 20070329 and xine-lib to 1.1.7; added WINE; updated MPlayer; added r8180/8187 wireless modules; added KnoppMyth Radio...." Please visit the project's home page to read the release announcement.
Pioneer Explorer 1.1 Server
Pioneer Explorer 1.1 Server has been released: "Technalign, Inc. has announced the release of Pioneer Explorer 1.1 Server. Pioneer Explorer 1.1 Server is a community based distribution for those wishing to run a server or those learning Linux server management. Explorer Server is a live CD that allows an individual to load the CD and test the server before installation. As all Technalign operating system releases, Explorer 1.1 Server includes a KDE desktop. Those wishing to remove the desktop may do so at will. As with the new Explorer Desktop releases, Explorer Server has a minimum of a 1-year life cycle for those in the community with a planned upgrade path. The new server continues to support Webmin for a graphical interface and SSH." Read the full press release for further information.
Tilix 2.1 has been released. Tilix is a Bulgarian desktop Linux distribution based on Kubuntu and completely localised into Bulgarian. The latest release comes with the following changes and new features: based on "Feisty Fawn"; includes Linux kernel 2.6.20, X.Org 7.2, KDE 3.5.7, OpenOffice.org 2.2.0; Beryl 3D desktop; support for Zeroconf and Strigi desktop search; includes popular KDE applications, such as Digikam 0.9.1, Amarok 1.4.7, K3b 1.0.3, Kopete and KNetworkManager; support for read and write to NTFS partitions with ntfs-3g; new game - Scummvm. Please read the full release announcement (in Bulgarian) for further details (the project's web site is being redesigned and will be updated in a few days.
Tilix 2.1 - a Bulgarian distribution based on Kubuntu
(full image size: 1,620kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
JackLab Audio Distribution 1.0
The first stable release of JackLab, an openSUSE-based distribution designed for musicians, producers and media creators, was announced today: "The technical manager of the JackLab project, Oliver Bengs, released the final 1.0 version of the JackLab Audio Distribution (JAD). JAD 1.0 is based upon openSUSE 10.2, with the addition of a realtime kernel for fast audio processing and a professional audio server - JACK. JackLab 1.0 is the most comprehensive selection of open source audio and multimedia software to date. The Enlightenment D17 window manager (with 'KDE-lite' tweaks) is used by default. Unlike other existing Linux audio distributions (64 Studio, Ubuntu Studio, Musix, dyne:bolic) JAD 1.0 offers complete support for ASIO. In addition, native VST for Linux is supported by JOST, a small modular host." Read the rest of the press release for further details.
* * * * *
Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
|Upcoming Releases and Announcements
Summary of expected upcoming releases
DistroWatch hit by a DDoS attack|
As many of you noticed, DistroWatch was offline for much of the weekend. The reason? A crippling Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) attack that made the site (and server) inaccessible since about 14:00 GMT on Saturday until about 12:00 GMT on Monday. The attack wasn't particularly sophisticated (it still goes on as I write this), but the large flood of packets directed at port 80, combined with the fact that it happened on a weekend, meant that it took some time to resolve the situation and to bring the site back online. Additionally, the server also became unresponsive and the operating system had to be re-installed (this is still being investigated; although there were no obvious signs of compromise, the possibility of the attacker finding a way into the server can't be ruled out).
I don't know who was behind the attack and doubt that I'll ever find out. This is the first time the site was subjected to a DDoS attack, so it caught us all by surprise (why would anybody do this to an innocent tech site?). It's a long story and I could write a detailed account of what happened and what steps were taken to fix the problem, then add some speculative thoughts on why the site was attacked. In the end, the first priority was to restore the web site, repel any remaining attacks and get everything up and running as soon as possible. There are still a few issues that need to be resolved, but the site is pretty much where it was before the weekend (except that it now runs on Debian GNU/Linux 4.0, rather than FreeBSD 6.2).
Many thanks to all concerned readers who found the time to email words of encouragement - I certainly needed them during the last four days of much work and barely any sleep!
* * * * *
New distributions added to database
* * * * *
New distributions added to waiting list
- LivEPICS LivEPICS is a Fedora-based Linux distribution with EPICS (a control software framework), extensions tools, introductory documents and manuals. It has a complete functionality to develop a small control system, although it is mainly intended for training classes or to monitor and supervise an EPICS network.
- Vixta.org. Vixta.org is a Fedora-based Linux distribution designed to be user-friendly and eye-catching, similar in look and feel to Windows Vista.
- Geubuntu. Geubuntu is an Ubuntu-based Linux distribution featuring the Enlightenment desktop. It attempts to complete the missing parts of the Enlightenment 17 desktop shell and window manager with a certain number of tools and applications from the GNOME desktop.
* * * * *
DistroWatch database summary
And this concludes the latest issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 24 September 2007.
|Linux Foundation Training
|Reader Comments • Jump to last comment
1 • Glad to have you back! (by Chris on 2007-09-19 09:44:05 GMT from France) |
Good DW even if we had to wait until Wednesday!
2 • pclos #1 on dw (by mike on 2007-09-19 09:48:07 GMT from United States)
PCLOS is good software, but the forum moderators and the irc-support channel moderators are horrible and will drive people away. To make a very long story short - to people thinking of choosing this distribution, evaluate the ~entire~ package, not just the software.
3 • Welcome back!! (by Michael on 2007-09-19 09:48:57 GMT from Malaysia)
Rays of enlightenment are back and a victory sign to Etch.
4 • Its here (by Don Go on 2007-09-19 09:49:26 GMT from Philippines)
I thought there was a special holiday in your place...anyway...better late than never...
Who would like to cripple a site like this????
Anyway, It good to be back
5 • Smart move, DW (by mike on 2007-09-19 09:53:54 GMT from United States)
There are still a few issues that need to be resolved, but the site is pretty much where it was before the weekend (except that it now runs on Debian GNU/Linux 4.0, rather than FreeBSD 6.2).
6 • PCLinuxOS is rigging its population (by Victor on 2007-09-19 09:54:28 GMT from China)
Apparently, PCLinuxOS is rigging the page hit ranking.
If your search Ubuntu in Google, you will get a certain amount of results, but if you search PCLinuxOS, the result is less than a tenth of Ubuntu
7 • No subject (by tuxesp1 on 2007-09-19 10:06:26 GMT from Italy)
sorry for what happened during the weekend but the distrowatch will ever survive because we believe in winning BAD by GOOD ACTIONS.
8 • kongrats to Jacklab (by REMF on 2007-09-19 10:23:42 GMT from United Kingdom)
i look forward to seeing how this distro will progress
9 • DDoS (by Pumpino on 2007-09-19 10:27:05 GMT from Australia)
What made you switch to Debian? Do you believe that running FreeBSD made DW vulnerable to the attack? Getting techs to reinstall a different OS on a remote server would have caused you quite a bit of stress.
10 • MachBoot download Fails! (by welkiner on 2007-09-19 10:29:22 GMT from United States)
Download completes with 0 bytes.
11 • FreeBSD 6.2 replaced with Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 (by Ben on 2007-09-19 10:39:51 GMT from Australia)
Any reason for the change Ladislav?
You seemed quite impressed with FreeBSD when you first switched over to it. I am using FreeBSD on my laptop right now. Whilst I am not convinced that it is yet ready for perfect desktop use, I have found it to be fantastic on servers.
I will replace this laptop's OS with the new Ubuntu when it comes out, but will leave FreeBSD on the server - I can't wait for 7.0 and ZFS... although it looks like it might not be the default or supported by the boot loader? Don't quote me on that...
12 • 2 days waiting for the DW Weekly Newsletter... (by ShakaZ on 2007-09-19 10:56:01 GMT from Belgium)
Unacceptable!!! Hang 'em high & short as we say here.
#10 : Same here i guess i wont see my lappy booting in 10s today...
13 • RE 6 and 10 (by budman7 on 2007-09-19 11:15:54 GMT from United States)
That is probably due to the fact that the Ubuntu forums are much larger and that there a lot more ubuntus.
I had the same problem.
Tried the machboot site, no dl.
14 • pclos phr (by oops on 2007-09-19 11:18:00 GMT from N/A)
congrats to the texstar fanboys who artificially inflated the rankings here .. you did it .. you deserve credit for your efforts .. ironic for me as i have been using pclos 2007 on this old pc since it came out .. ;)
keep your stick handy
15 • PCLinuxOS (by The Doctor on 2007-09-19 11:20:55 GMT from United States)
It appears that there are some people in here who fear other Linux distributions and are taking potshots of PCLinuxOS. To date I have tried 137 different Linux distributions. I roam through the forum is quite a bit. There is extremely little flaming in the PCLinuxOS forums. I find much more in Ubuntu and SuSE. Also, as one of the best New User's Guides available. I am not saying that the other distributions are not as good. There are many competent Linux distributions. My point that I have posted in many different forms is that PCLinuxOS is one of the easiest Linox distributions for a new user to try because they purposely made it look and act like Windows XP.
16 • Re: post #2 (by Bryan on 2007-09-19 11:26:33 GMT from United States)
I TOTALLY agree. PCLinux is a nice distro but the attitude of the forum staff as well as many of the fanatical users is too overbearing.
From a technical standpoint though, PCLinux works on less of my machines than Ubuntu. The hardware isn't configured as completely and ACPI is very unpredictable. One thing I love about PCLinux though is the inclusion of the Mandriva/PCLinux control center. It is the BEST configuration utility of any distro.
I currently use PCLinux on two of my machines (desktops), because configuration of internet connection sharing is so easy with the control center. On the two other machines (laptops), I use Ubuntu.
When looking at the entire eco-structure of the distros (technology, updated packages, hardware configuration, polish, etc.) you also have to look at other factors as well (documentation, forum, getting help, and ATTITUDE). Taken as a whole, I think Ubuntu is a better choice...
17 • pclos (by n.r. on 2007-09-19 11:35:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
#2 I left because of the moderators too, although they did nothing personally to me. The attitude they displayed on the mailing list was disgraceful, fascist even. Clearly the distro is only available to the public because of open source. PCLOS? No thanks. Soon as I have DesktopBSD set up fully and working pclos will be gone for good.
18 • Looking at these results, there seems to be a BIG drop in visitors (by for All distros, except 1 on 2007-09-19 11:40:32 GMT from N/A)
7 Day Profile
Rank Distribution H.P.D*
1 PCLinuxOS 3086>
2 Ubuntu 1754>
3 TinyMe 1057>
4 openSUSE 1043>
5 Fedora 1005>
6 Sabayon 829<
7 Mint 760>
8 KANOTIX 626>
9 MEPIS 616<
10 Debian 582>
11 Mandriva 486
19 • The PCLinuxOS Bashing Fest has started....(or soon) (by IMQ on 2007-09-19 11:42:51 GMT from N/A)
I am still looking for that perfect distro where *everyone* is freaking happy, a distro with absolutely zero negative freaking comment anywhere.
I need to take a trip to the Never Never Land. Maybe I'll find Happy-Happy-Joy-Joy distro of the millennium.
Until then, I just use... PCLinuxOS...or whatever. Ubuntu? Oh sh*t! That's one also gotten the bashing on the regular basis every time it's mentioned.
I got it! I just roll my own distro and never release it anywhere. No bashing! Perfect!
Now I need to Google the how to for newbie...
20 • Ubuntu derivatives (by Azrael Nightwalker on 2007-09-19 11:48:29 GMT from Poland)
It would be nice if all Ubuntu derivatives' authors would work with Ubuntu to maintain a good upstream relationship. A good start is to add your derivative to the list:
21 • Welcome back, Ladislav, and thanks (by Surge on 2007-09-19 11:49:59 GMT from United Kingdom)
Your true genius shines through again. How many of us out here are grateful for your efforts.
The guys who did this to you/us must be made to suffer.
Humiliate them, Ladislav!
Works even better than the cat-o-ninetails. Show them just how much smarter you are.
Keep up the good work - and thanks again.
22 • Re 19... No, Its the Best distro since sliced bread (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 11:50:10 GMT from N/A)
@19 • The PCLinuxOS Bashing Fest has started
Chill out, Bro/Sis!
23 • DistroWatch (by IMQ on 2007-09-19 11:50:45 GMT from N/A)
Sorry to hear what happened to DW.
But I am glad to see it's up and running again!
Thanks for all the hard work!
PS: Why Debian? Just curious.
24 • Ubuntu (by Douglas on 2007-09-19 11:52:47 GMT from Germany)
Another thing to think about with ubuntu not being on top is that it is cut up with kubuntu and xubuntu etc. If you add them all together you might get a better picture but on the other hand some of us might visit all the ubuntus and that would jack up the numbers. As always the hit counts here are just hits and don't really mean that much as far as I can tell. Perhaps they show the whim of the moment.
25 • PCLinuxOS (by frantic on 2007-09-19 11:58:43 GMT from United States)
I tried pclinuxos twice and I think it's just copy of mandriva without branding + inclusion of mmedia codecs. Otherwise I do not see anything interesting about it. But if someone likes it...:-)
26 • MachBoot (by Bob on 2007-09-19 11:59:07 GMT from United States)
I downloaded MachBoot a week ago. By my stopwatch timing, it booted up in 12 seconds on a Pentium 4 machine. Got about the same time on a Sempron machine. Took longer on my laptop (slower Cd drive) about 25 seconds. Impressive.
Have been checking out PCLinuxOS this week and will be changing to it from Xandros in a couple days.
Glad to see DW is back up again.
27 • DDOS (by rev on 2007-09-19 12:01:21 GMT from United States)
I was going through withdrawals without DW.
Obviously, the attacker was making up for their male inadequacies, their very small male inadequacies.
The site is not political in nature and I fail to see any reason for the attack by a non-skilled script-kiddie wannabe, never was and never will be.
DDOS is usually reserved for for the skilz impaired moron who could not gain root only to resort to the simplest form of attack as a spank for being smarter than them.
28 • Glad to see you back. (by Joaquim Gil on 2007-09-19 12:07:25 GMT from Portugal)
I'm truly glad to see you back. I really don't get what's the point of DoS Attacks to a site like this one... Stupid bastards...
Also, I'm glad to know you switched to Debian 4.0 - It's a kick ass distro!
Keep up the good work!
29 • Why not to try fedora? (by sf on 2007-09-19 12:18:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have tried lately the following:
PCLOS - nothing special to be honest..nice theme...but....nothing special not for me
Ubuntu 7.04 - Works well. It's very easy to use and much better than PCLOS in my opinion
Fedora 7 - My main OS. A workhorse....I love it...People should really give it a try. It's much faster than Ubuntu 7.04 on my HW.
Fedora 8 Test 2. - It feels faster even than F7. The theme is awesome. Seems already very stable for Desktop usage. Hibernation seems to work fine on my HW out of the box.
PCBSD 1.41 Beta - I tried it briefly. It seems quite easy to install. It does not take much space and its very fast.
In my experience...so far....Fedora has been the best Linux distro I have tried....You know what try it and you will be surprised....
30 • PCLinuxOS On Laptop (by Ronald L. Gibson on 2007-09-19 12:21:10 GMT from United States)
I just installed PCLinuxOS on my Compaq R4000 without a problem, except that the Broadcom Wifi chipset is not supported. I'll find a driver for it one of these days. I tried JacLab but had some minor problems. So far I am happy with PCLinuxOS. I'm already familiar with Mandriva, it's running on my web server.
31 • PCLinuxOS forums are good for seeking help, not so good for hot debate (by Hooke on 2007-09-19 12:22:23 GMT from Spain)
PCLinuxOS forums are a nice place for newbies. Your questions are usually with clarity and patience, and the general atmosphere is friendly and relaxed. Same in the irc channel (where often Texstar can be found). What I concede is that sometimes they are a bit "overmoderated" , threads are often merged, closed and/or removed when things become "ugly". I would prefer much less intervention, for the sake of free speech and open debate, but even so, it's a very nice place. Oh, and you often just need to search the forums to find the answer to your questions. I think one of the reasons PCLOS doesn't score high in Google trends is that PCLOS users are rarely advice to do a Google search for their problems. The forums and the irc channel are the best source of answers for any PCLOS-specific problem.
32 • DW Down? (by Iainm2 on 2007-09-19 12:27:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
I am sorry to say that I didn't realise you had been down even though I check in most days. I am glad you are back up and running as DW is my main source of info on what's happening in Linux Land.
I use Ubuntu because it works for me. I like DSL for the same reasons. I respect other peoples choices and like to hear their experiences because you are never too old to learn.That may give you a clue that I am no longer a teenager.
Anyway, please keep up the good work, your efforts are much appreciated.
33 • RE: 10 • MachBoot download Fails! (by welkiner (by Rahim on 2007-09-19 12:29:15 GMT from Ecuador)
>>10 • MachBoot download Fails! (by welkiner on 2007-09-19 10:29:22 GMT from United States)
Download completes with 0 bytes.
Ah! You found the secret to the Mach boot, it's a 0 byte distribution!
34 • PCLos vs. Ubuntu vs. All else (by davemc on 2007-09-19 12:31:43 GMT from United States)
Aaaand the winner is?
35 • Linux marches on. (by nightflier on 2007-09-19 12:33:09 GMT from United States)
Welcome back. Mondays are just not the same without DWW.
PCLinuxOS: Good enough to replace Vista on my new Laptop. Have not even needed to visit the forums.
36 • Welcome DW (by Daniel Mery on 2007-09-19 12:53:12 GMT from United States)
I am so glad to see it's up and running again. We missed you.
Thanks so much for all the hard work !!!!!
Distrowatch LIVE 4 EVER.............
37 • PCLOS just works (by Ed Hodge on 2007-09-19 12:56:28 GMT from United States)
I'm a 4 year Linux user (and just recently delegated Windows to a virtual machine on my home desktop). PCLOS offers a great desktop experience, period. It is maybe half a step behind Mandriva, Fedora, and OpenSuse as far as hardware detection, but in in the day-to-day operation it shows it is worthy of all the attention. I have attempted to install Ubuntu several times on various machines and have yet to have it pick up all the hardware thrown at it. The PCLOS forums are not as active as Ubuntu, but maybe that's because people don't need as much help ;-). They are just as helpful, though. I'm just glad to see Linux usage growing more and more.
38 • Long live DistroWatch and DWW! (by debianista on 2007-09-19 13:00:32 GMT from Finland)
Attack against DistroWatch is an attack against the whole GNU/Linux community. I'm glad that Ladislav made the move from FreeBSD to Debian GNU/Linux. The *BSD flavours (as well as OpenSolaris and HURD) have their own valuable role and place in the larger Free Software community but the spirit and the momentum of the Free Software movement resides in GNU/Linux. And in trying times you'll always find strength from the spirit of the community.
Congratulations to PCLinuxOS for their #1 position. Currently their popularity shows much higher at Distrowatch than anywere else, which suggests that PCLinuxOS is a quality product that has won the hearts of GNU/Linux enthusiasts. To also win the hearts of the larger GNU/Linux audience, their founder and lead developer needs to learn that interviews are good PR and their forums need to learn to treat all users courteously.
Ubuntu seems to do their PR right and their forums are mostly polite and helpful. And Ubuntu is built on Debian GNU/Linux that stands for high quality and reliability. I have no doubt that the upcoming Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon release will lift Ubuntu to the #1 position at DistroWatch once again, at least temporarily.
Still, diversity and choice are the things I appreciate most in GNU/Linux. And I appreciate DistroWatch because it makes these choices easily available for everybody. :-)
39 • Choice is good (by Dick on 2007-09-19 13:14:23 GMT from United States)
I have been using PCLinuxOS for about 5 months and like it very much. The only problems I have had are relatively minor, such as the screensaver not being reliable. That might actually be a KDE problem, I don't know.
I've tried Ubuntu and Kubuntu and they are also great distros, but my preference has been with PCLOS. I think as far as the rankings go, maybe DW should combine all of the Canonical distros so that a hit on any of them counts for the group. I'm sure in that case that *ubuntu would remain on top for a long time, and it would probably give a more accurate picture.
The bottom line is that I am glad that we have choices. Some like one distro better, others like another. Comparisons of distros should be constructive, not religious wars.
40 • Forums (by Whitespiral on 2007-09-19 13:21:55 GMT from Mexico)
"To make a very long story short - to people thinking of choosing this distribution, evaluate the ~entire~ package, not just the software."
The hundreds of millions of users who have Windows installed on their computers don't use an official Microsoft forum to solve their problems, or somehow share part of their lives with other Windows users. So why do PCLinuxOS users have to be any different? Forum membership is optional, and at most it's an additional bonus to having good software on your computer.
41 • Sudden insight... (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 13:23:59 GMT from United States)
Some wonder where all the PCLOS clicks are coming from. We all know Ubuntu has a much larger user base. Maybe a large chunk of Ubuntu users are looking for something that suits them better.
42 • Glad to have you back (by Tony on 2007-09-19 13:24:24 GMT from United States)
I echo the sentiment of the posters preceding me - glad to have DW back! This has been hard on you and I imagine you have been burning the candle at both ends to get DW back in service. Simply put - Thank You!!
43 • Nice DW, amd congrats to nVIDIA (by Kensai on 2007-09-19 13:27:47 GMT from Puerto Rico)
Well, the title says it all I would like to congratulate nVidia since this time it didn't took them 6 Month to release a driver for a Xorg version that changed ABI. They Already released it and this is good to know, it seems they are progressing and considering the seriousness of Linux support this days.
44 • QU 39 "Choice is good". Based on which precise criteria? (by dbrion on 2007-09-19 13:35:04 GMT from France)
Choice is good: so are caviar, banknotes and icecream...
Is a distr good on localization criteria? PClos? ( SAM is much better, though her rankings are lower, as it recognizes maby European language.
Kaella is one of the bests, though very obscure, and very widely distributed in France : no (I never saw, at least) typos in her French, recognizes many HW...)
Is it good on QA criteria? What about UBUlinux QA, if it exists?
Is it good on gastronomical criteria (sliced bread vs caviar)?
I feel that distrowatch is meant for pple who are dissatisfied (or will be) with their OS and look for another : as PClos users had a problem with their download server (an unexpected one, and even, meseems, unconspired : it was just a too little server) they went to DW and dicovered they could cliclivote....and it had economical consequences, as some linux vendors claim being the 1rst in DW votes is an indicator of usability....
45 • PCLinuxOS Popularity (by Donnie on 2007-09-19 13:38:30 GMT from United States)
I think there may be some logical reasons that PCLinuxOS has gained popularity over Ubuntu.
1. Ubuntu's experimentation with Upstart--Not so troublesome for the desktop, but it does cause things on Ubuntu Server--like Heartbeat--to no longer work. My opinion--they should have stuck with SysVInit.
2. Kubuntu bugs--I have Kubuntu Feisty Fawn installed on my AMD 6000+ machine, and it's quite buggy. An RC version of PCLinuxOS that I have installed on another Athlon64 machine is a lot more stable, and has better user control features. For anyone who wants a KDE desktop, PCLinuxOS is a much better choice than Kubuntu. (Also, I had Kubuntu Edgy Eft installed on an old Celeron machine, and even it was much more stable than the Feisty Fawn version.)
46 • NComputing believe that providing PC access to the next
billion users (by billion users on 2007-09-19 13:45:44 GMT from N/A)
"We at NComputing believe that providing PC access to the next
billion users -- those who cannot afford the cost of an individual PC
-- is the single biggest challenge facing our industry today. Perhaps
the most important segment of this under-served mass market is school
children, including students in the United States and other developed
countries, as well as those in developing nations," said Stephen
Dukker, Chairman and CEO of NComputing. "We're gratified that
NComputing's technology can be an important part of the solution in
Macedonia and around the world."
The Macedonia project is at the same time, the largest known
thin client and desktop Linux [using Ubuntu] deployment ever undertaken.
"This project would not have been possible 5 years ago," said
Ivanovski. "Today's least expensive desktop PCs are so powerful we
use less than 10% of their capacity and NComputing's technology puts
this wasted power to work."
In a brief 18 months after starting active shipments, NComputing has
sold more than 500,000 seats, including more than 200,000 to U.S.
schools, providing technology that addresses the needs of
under-served markets worldwide, as well as those of small business
and enterprise customers. The company's technology is being sold and
deployed in more than 80 countries -- including thousands of schools,
corporate and small business offices, and villages and cities in
Africa, Europe, Asia and South America.
About NComputing, Inc.
Founded with the goal of making computing affordable for everyone,
47 • PCLinuxOS et al (by PP on 2007-09-19 13:55:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
There's a clear pattern emerging, just as Ladislav wrote: Small new distros are better at adapting in the fast moving technological environment. They are delivering "instant-satisfaction" Linux distributions. This is behind the success of PCLinuxOS, Mint, Sabayon and other similar ones. They are _great_ for the average end user at home. And they are great stepping stones into the Linux world.
The popularity contests aside, I would like to see a survey that shows how many people actually use multiple distros concurrently. I run different distros on my laptop, desktop, and backup desktop. All the Linuxes are eventually pretty much the same.
48 • A Desktop Linux Paradigm - Battle For PC Domination (by TL at 2007-09-19 14:03:46 GMT from Singapore)
PCLinuxOS climb up the Linux world has been nothing short of astonishing. Given Ubuntu's formidable hold on the Linux share, which even seasoned players like Mandriva and Suse/Novell/ Read Hat have trouble containing.
Ubuntu will eventually have problem containing PCLinuxOS. If you do not suss out what makes these two become the leading players in the Linux world, you'll probably think they adopted similar strategy to reign tops in Linux world.
Actually Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS may not know it but they have important elements in their approach which will decide who will be the top gun.
Ubuntu's main focus has always been to top the Linux domain, and this they have achieved disposing off Red Hat, Mandriva, Suse and many others.
You probably thought PCLinuxOS will be eyeing the throne seated by Ubuntu, but then the PC in the name holds a far greater meaning and purpose. PCLinuxOS is gunning for the biggest one - Microsoft. Somewhere in the journey to face off with Microsoft, PCLinuxOS will eventually have to despatch off Ubuntu, whether by accident or not.
Quite likely PCLinuxOS will overtake Ubuntu not because it wants to but because Ubuntu happens to be in the path heading towards Microsoft.
49 • DW List of Discontinued Distributions (by Dr.Saleem Khan on 2007-09-19 14:07:59 GMT from Pakistan)
While going through the list I checked for my favorite distro Kalango and while distrowatch page says it has been discontinued , infact its back with Kalango website updated this time
50 • great weekly (by random guy at 2007-09-19 14:24:50 GMT from United States)
great dww this time, i was planning on just skimming it over but couldnt help but read indepth.
about pclinuxos: it is on the top of the list now guys, deal with it. no one cheated anymore than could have cheated for any other distro. i am not saying that pclinuxos is hte most popular distro (i actually dont think it is) but according to how this game is played it sits on the pole. it isnt a measure of popularity, just hits.
macboot: wow cool, but i dont mind waiting a little longer and get a kde system though.
sorry about distrowatch downtime. hope you dont see any other problems.
51 • PCLinuxOS v. Ubuntu, etc. (by Justin Whitaker on 2007-09-19 14:24:54 GMT from United States)
The distro-bashing is getting tiresome.
If you disconnect your ego from your desktop for a minute, you will realize that all Linux distributions are more similar than not: they all provide the kernel, the GNU toolchain, Xorg, a desktop, and some apps...they mainly differ in details, marketing, philosophy of package management, etc.
You know, details.
Now, details can make or break a user experience, and not all distros are for everyone: for each PCLinuxOS user that just wants the damn thing to work, there is someone that wants to dig deep into the guts and configure their box how they want it (any source distro, particularly Gentoo). That's fine, because it is a personal choice.
But that is all it is: a personal choice. It is not a sign of Manifest Destiny, it's not a sign that you are right, it's not a sign that your solution works for anyone else. It is a random sampling of one-you.
I find it quite funny, after using Linux on and off since RH 6.2, that everyone is so caught up in their personal choice of desktop that they are missing the big picture: tell me how Linux is doing against Microsoft, in terms of market share?
Then tell me, how you are helping that situation by taking down your brothers in arms?
Whether or not PCLinuxOS, Ubuntu, Mandriva, Fedora, or some other distro ranks highest on the popularity contest that is the DW Hit Ranking means nothing if the overall market share of Linux on the desktop is still less than Apple.
52 • A good read (by Zoodayz on 2007-09-19 14:28:02 GMT from United States)
A good read this week yet again. Btw Ubuntu Alpha does feel very stable at this time. And it looks like its shaping up to be another great distro yet again. Oh and no im not just another Ubuntu Fan boy im a Freebsd, Fedora and Ubuntu fan boy. :)
53 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 14:39:54 GMT from United States)
A few points if I may:
1. I find it remarkable that after all the trouble with your DDoS attack, you were able to get DWW out just two days late. Thanks for the hard work!
2. PCLinuxOS fanbois are annoying - the same way the Ubuntu fanbois used to be, and some of whom still are. But please do not criticize Tex. He's a good guy doing what he can to give people a good Linux experience. You should be beaten if you criticize Tex.
3. There's obviously no way PCLinuxOS has anything close to the popularity of Ubuntu. I see confusion on that point in some previous comments.
4. As distros go, we could do a lot worse than having Ubuntu as our representative to the world. In fact, they seem to have some insights as to how the Linux community ought to interact with the rest of the world. They are professional, for one thing. You can either criticize or learn from those with success. In this case, we should learn from the Ubuntu team.
5. I think the success of Ubuntu being questioned, and statements about how PCLinuxOS is clearly the better newbie distro shows just how little the Linux community understands about recruiting users, and why it took so long for Linux to become a mainstream OS. I say this because I only hear experienced Linux users say PCLOS is the best new-user distro, not the new users themselves. Here are a few reasons that Ubuntu is good for new users:
a. The new user guide. I've found nothing comparable and it is what enabled me to switch from XP to Linux full time.
b. Great _professional_ forums. These forums are pretty good even compared to commercial software support. Complain about the proprietary software vendors but they are generally friendly with what might be thought of as dumb questions.
c. They don't assume everyone is an imbecile, a 96-year old who has never used a computer before. They don't assume the command line is too hard. The command line is better for a lot of purposes, and new users like me are not scared of it, provided that you get an explanation such as you get in the Ubuntu forums.
d. The use of KDE is a killer for PCLinuxOS. Say what you want, GNOME is just better for new users. I hated it passionately when I heard babbling about all the choices in KDE. I just wanted to find my browser and a few other applications. Six different settings managers were of little interest considering I didn't know any of them. In the new PCLinuxOS, you can go through multiple submenus to get the application you're after. That just doesn't fly with new users.
e. You can find what you need using Google. Someone has always had your problem before if you use Ubuntu. That's not always true of other distros.
These things may or may not apply to other distros, but if you don't like Ubuntu, why don't you find the reasons for their success and incorporate them into your distro of choice, rather than trying to convince yourself that Ubuntu is bad. Ubuntu is popular, and if you want your distro to be popular too, you should figure out why it isn't and then fix the problem.
54 • Red Hat contributions to Free and Open Source software (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 14:40:40 GMT from N/A)
Red Hat contributions to Free and Open Source software
What has PCLOS contributed? PCC? :-)
55 • Cant believe buntu users mad at Pclos (by Steve on 2007-09-19 14:44:04 GMT from Canada)
@ post 2 . Mike you must be a buntu user, Pclos is a great distro. Kde is better for a new user then gnome, just ask Linus Torvalds about his view points of gnome lol. Pclos forums and Irc is very helpful and people there are very nice. Much friendler then Buntu forums just ask Mike about buntu forums lol,
@ post 29 . SF
same here Fedora 7 - nothing special to be honest..nice theme...but....nothing special not for me
some of the posts at buntu forums are very informative and some other posts are a down right joke. Dont get me wrong pclos is not my main distro but i do recommend it to anyone thats starting linux or someone that wants a distro that just works thats why Pclos is where it shoule be now at #1 and as far as i am concern Ubuntu is still way too high at #2. Just my 2 cents
56 • PCLinuxOS bashing (by Anton on 2007-09-19 14:56:41 GMT from Thailand)
This is a simple message to Linux users
If you see your favorite distro bashed by some , please ignore them.
Don't even bother to answer them.
Those people, maybe technically competent, are childish and just looking for attention or a flame war.
Please, don't answer their posts. They will get tired of it some day.
57 • "path?" (by Geoff on 2007-09-19 14:58:24 GMT from N/A)
"..Ubuntu happens to be in the path heading towards Microsoft."
That is one of the silliest remarks I've seen posted here.
Microsoft is buying up successful distros, or at least causing them to sign "covenants." Is that the "path" referred to? Is that the path Texstar is on?
Ok. I'm just hoping the path reference is not wrt some sort of market share confrontation. That is a fantasy of "The Mouse that Roared" proportions.
58 • The Attack (by Dimitri on 2007-09-19 15:05:50 GMT from United States)
"It's a long story and I could write a detailed account of what happened and what steps were taken to fix the problem, then add some speculative thoughts on why the site was attacked."
First the book, then the movie!
59 • Damned DDOS! (by Lobotomia on 2007-09-19 15:18:40 GMT from Italy)
two days without you is very hard!
60 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 15:22:13 GMT from France)
Will whining about DW ranks ever end?
61 • DW is back! (by Jose on 2007-09-19 15:23:18 GMT from United States)
First, glad you were able to get back after just two days! Amazing.
I was wondering, what were you using before moving the DW servers to FreeBSD? Wasn't it Debian? I can't seem to remember.
As to PCLinuxOS, I use it on two of my PC's and Vector linux on another. I did try the 'buntus, but didn't see any reason to switch. However, I do like their positive presence in the linux world and wish them great success.
I was wondering if anyone has ever done a comparison of software needed to use Windows from within Linux? VMWare, Parallels, Win4Lin and others come to mind.
62 • RE 54 : there are other things than code/direct contributions... (by dbrion on 2007-09-19 15:23:20 GMT from France)
"What has PCLOS contributed? PCC?"
Nothing or very little.
And they seem very frank about that (see the link in post 187 of http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20070910&mode=37:
they fully acknowledge their code base.... Does UBUlinux ack Debian?)
And they do not claim to have contributed _anything_ ( I fear they are a small team of maintainers, with very few coders, if any).
OTOH, they may have made many English-american speaking users happy, so happy they do not need fora to get [inexistant]bugs fixed
Is that that bad?
OTH I am a not that dissatisfied of RedHats derived OSes and emulators(Cygwin, Mandriva ,WhiteBoxen by alph order, and, for localization reasons, never tried PCloss - SAM seems somewhat Mandriva redundant, as they claim-)
63 • RE: #38 (by Psile on 2007-09-19 15:27:25 GMT from United States)
AMEN debianista on ALL the points you've made.
Ladislav, Thank you so much for your hard work! This site is seriously my favorite and most visited site through out the week.
64 • @41 • Sudden insight (by john frey on 2007-09-19 15:39:07 GMT from Canada)
That really did make me burst out in laughter.:-)
65 • MACH Boot & Syllable boot time... (by Ruud Kuin at 2007-09-19 15:43:04 GMT from Netherlands)
This one you already know, so this is just a reminder.
Syllable does have a toal boot-time under 30 seconds too.
From GrUB to the graphics environment even under five seconds.
66 • PCLinuxOS ranking (by RonB on 2007-09-19 15:44:49 GMT from United States)
Noone should be surprised at PCLinuxOS (or something else) outranking Ubuntu here. People come here looking for something new and exciting. Ubuntu is not that. I tired from Ubuntu and derivatives quite quickly and long ago. I think PCLinuxOS (and Mint) are great improvements.
"Put the fun back into computing": There's nothing 'fun' about Ubuntu anymore.
Also, it's been a long time since anything new from Ubunutu, so it's natural their traffic would drop. Wait til the next release comes out.
Plus, Ubuntu (default) is ugly.
67 • PCLinuxOS (by rel on 2007-09-19 15:59:56 GMT from United States)
PCLOS is a great little piece of software, but the more I use the various distros, the more I'm annoyed with how poorly the upgrade process is among the top distros... it seems most of them almost re-write the OS for each new version. I have been using PC-BSD for about 3 months now and I can say that I have seen the light. The FreeBSD base gives it a solid platform and upgrading is trivial. Now that I've seen how the tightly integrated and coherent FreeBSD operating system is assembled, I don't think I'll ever go back (Debian was my OS of choice for years) You can easily run Windows, Linux and BSD apps on this platform, giving it the most overall number of packages/software to install of any OS.
The only glitch as of now is native Flash 9 support (although I have it running in Firefox for Linux inside BSD)
Don't be afraid of the big bad BSD.... it's easier than you think with PCBSD, and version 1.4 is right around the corner. 1.4 is based on FreeBSD 6.2 and has KDE 3.5.7. It's really a joy to run.
68 • DDoS Attack? (by wouter on 2007-09-19 16:02:19 GMT from Finland)
Why would anyone care to do a DDoS attack on Distrowatch?... Doesn't make sense. All the wasted time and effort – of both the attackers as the site and server maintainers – for nothing.
If you want to be l33t h4xx0rz – as opposed to do something useful, try to take out some governmental targets. Or companies with huge net infrastructure like Microsoft. See if you can take those out without being caught...
69 • pclinux (by Amy on 2007-09-19 16:13:04 GMT from United States)
Its good to see some thing besides ubuntu on the top as I hate ubuntu as it has a frustrating installer and takes far to long to install and does not find all my hardware.
I my self would love to actually see MEPIS on the top as its the best in my opinion and I have tried a lot.
70 • PCLinuxOS (by Quasimodo on 2007-09-19 16:17:26 GMT from United States)
My experience with PCLinuxOS:
Went to configure DSL
Didn't detect the DSL modem, wantedto try and download it..
Went back to MEPIS, which *does* detect the DSL modem correctly.
PCLinuxOS = Fail
71 • #1 but not for long (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 16:20:52 GMT from United States)
I won't give any distro a spin if the maintainer cares so little about openness to his users that he won't grant a distrowatch interview. Open source, closed mouth apparently. That's just weird.
72 • @ Quasimodo (by RUUD at 2007-09-19 16:21:17 GMT from Netherlands)
Good on you mate!
Going back to Mepis was the best choice.
Hardware-recognition in (almost) every configuration.
73 • MEPIS (by Amy on 2007-09-19 16:24:38 GMT from United States)
I agree with 70 and 71 I used pcLinux for a little while and ya it did not find half my hardware so I am still using mepis.
Honestly at this point I do not think I will go to something else as I keep going back to MEPIS.
74 • @64 & @41 (by Anonyymi on 2007-09-19 16:28:39 GMT from Finland)
Funny, true - But there is very strong point here. I use 4 different distros all the time. 5 different machines with different functions and HW. If you ask me, those are my favourites, and they are popular amongst me, so to say. I very seldom click those on DW pages, because I allready know about them. I only click those I don't use.
Good luck for ya all.
Thank you for your good work under pressure, Ladislav.
75 • PCLOS (by Peter Cruickshank on 2007-09-19 16:32:10 GMT from Canada)
I looked at the PCLOS Distrowatch page, and I think it's strange because it's not as if the packages are very new. I can't imagine why people would be checking the page every day just to see that the distro still has Gnome from a year ago. Oooh, better check again tomorrow!
76 • #71 (by Carminethebowler. on 2007-09-19 16:34:35 GMT from N/A)
"I won't give any distro a spin if the maintainer cares so little about openness to his users that he won't grant a distrowatch interview. Open source, closed mouth apparently. That's just weird."
No, not weird. He just doesn't have the time too feed trolls. It's a shame a few more people on DW don't have open minds instead of ever open mouths.
77 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 16:37:27 GMT from United States)
@70: Not sure what you mean about detecting a DSL modem. There should be no detection necessary. Maybe there is a problem with your ethernet card being detected.
@68: There used to be an IBM commercial in the US asking why someone would want to break into your servers, in an attempt to get companies worried about security (quite forward-thinking in hindsight). They showed a picture of a teenager with a bunch a earrings, and his answer was, "the same reason I pierce my nose". Probably just a Windows fanboy ought to prove a point.
@54: What are they required to contribute? Nothing. That's how it works. That's also the reason distro bashing and rivalries are so silly. It's all the same stuff written by the same guys with a little difference in the grease used to make it run. You use Linux as your OS (or GNU/Linux if you prefer strange names). PCLOS, Ubuntu, Vector, etc. are just the specific version of OS. There are also various distros of Vista now.
78 • Distrowatch.com (by Hugh E Torrance on 2007-09-19 16:38:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
Pretty mean spirited thing to do,I mean Distrowatch.com is one of my favorite sites where I can get free distros to try...its deeply offensive to me that others would deny me for whatever reason they think they have...Thanks for everything... Hugh
ps may they burn in hell...after... Vengeance, Armaggedon and the judgment of course...
79 • Geubuntu (by Luca D.M. on 2007-09-19 16:39:34 GMT from Italy)
Hi, just wanted to inform you that Geubuntu 7.04 Prima Luna has been released. I'd love to see it listed in your great site, since we need a community of people helping the project :) Thanks for the great work you do here,
80 • Trolling, for Trout? Bass? Anything to "sink your teeth into"? (by Landor on 2007-09-19 17:01:22 GMT from Canada)
"I won't give any distro a spin if the maintainer cares so little about openness to his users that he won't grant a distrowatch interview. Open source, closed mouth apparently. That's just weird."
"No, not weird. He just doesn't have the time too feed trolls. It's a shame a few more people on DW don't have open minds instead of ever open mouths."
Odd you found that a shame, I concur, but not in regard to the previous post.
It's funny though in regard to the developer of PCLOS. The only time I ever remember seeing him here was in regard to comments involving Mandriva and it being basically a knock off and such, though I may not have discerned it adequately since I really don't pay much attention to PCLOS. That stated though, a developer can troll to a forum to deal with varied (various) comments regarding their distribution but not comment on that forum's weekly newsletter....... I concur as I said, very weird.
As far as I am concerned, and of course only my opinion, I equate Ubuntu, but PCLOS even more in near to the same light, even Sabayon, as a distro followed by a lot of pubescent teens who are into RPGs, FSPs and DND, so basically a distro for kiddies who want something easy to use and then take their rightful place in the claim to fame rankings as being #1.
As I said, right or wrong, it's my opinion or perception, and I've seen little to change it in regards to all three distros.
I just think, I'm thankful there's other alternative out there that truly have a reason to claim so much for their efforts, like Slack, RH, SUSE, Mandriva, Gentoo. When PCLOS can keep their sleeves rolled up for as long as that majority, "standing on their own code", I'll be impressed.
Keep your stick on the ice...
81 • interesting... (by anonymous on 2007-09-19 17:06:45 GMT from United States)
The Ubuntu fanbois must have received a beating in the back room for getting complacent and not doing their daily clicks for the popularity contest that they are so interested in.
Why can't we be happy for PCLinuxOS? If Ubuntu is the team player that they like to say they are, then they should be happy for one of our own. This behavior of bashing another distro for jumping ahead of them on the ranking is something I would expect from Microsoft. Is Ubuntu trying to be the Microsoft of Linux? I sure hope not.
82 • RE 81 Le roi est mort, vive le roi (by dbrion on 2007-09-19 17:17:07 GMT from France)
IF they show their clilove to the first one, former UBUlinux fanboys just have become PClos fanboys...
why only an rank-based-interview of Texstar as his distr grew from 1 to 2? Is changing from 1 to 2 such ininteresting (or from 178 to 175)???
83 • cor _82 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 17:21:35 GMT from France)
changing from 1 to 2 => changing from 2 to 1
84 • Why the move to DEBIAN? please Ladislav tell us. (by Kensai on 2007-09-19 17:30:24 GMT from Puerto Rico)
I'm also as many here interested in knowing why the move from FreeBSD to Debian again? I'm not against it but, it would be very good information for us tech savvy people, who want to know every why? on the technologies decision made by people. I think it would be educational to write something about it more in detail here, or in the next DWW. Thanks
85 • 81 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 17:33:39 GMT from United States)
Present one shred of evidence that Ubuntu hits per day are inflated more than PCLOS hpd.
How the hell is Ubuntu going to be the Microsoft of Linux?
You might not like Ubuntu, but wow, can't you try to formulate an intelligent argument, or at least refrain from posting here?
86 • Cant believe buntu users mad at Pclos (by Mike on 2007-09-19 17:43:42 GMT from United States)
@55 - No, Steve, I am not a *buntu user. I use Debian. Pure Debian; ya know... the Real deal. I have been a developer for 26 years, Steve. And I stand by what I said in post #2. Moderators on their forum yank posts for no apparant reason and when you ask for an explanation, they don't even respond. And I have other stories about their forum and irc-support channel. Not only regarding me, but others as well. Customer support like this is 100% unacceptable. Read the Debian Social Contract sometime and You decide.
87 • @86 (by Mike on 2007-09-19 17:49:35 GMT from United States)
Oh, and by the way, Steve, I use KDE, not Gnome. And do yourself a favor; don't believe everything Linus has to say. Think for yourself.
88 • DDoS Might Have Been PCLOS Fans (by Willie on 2007-09-19 17:50:14 GMT from United States)
Maybe it wasn't a DDoS attack but all the people interested in PCLOS!
89 • @88 (by Mike on 2007-09-19 17:58:57 GMT from United States)
90 • DW on Tuesday! (by Johannes Eva on 2007-09-19 18:05:31 GMT from Germany)
DW comes out on tuesday, and I observed myself connecting 20 times a day to see what was happening. Just addicted...
Anyway, great Job, Ladislav, as always!
91 • RE: 54 - What has PCLOS contributed? PCC? :-) (by ezsit on 2007-09-19 18:06:00 GMT from United States)
I assume the sarcasm is meant since PCLOS just rips the Control Center from Mandriva?
92 • Distros (by Fernando Gracia on 2007-09-19 18:16:58 GMT from United States)
After a few years of competition, Today Linux users enjoy a superb distros many of them based on Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva, etc. And Distrowatch is our main source of information about any Linux Distro, so keep the competition in order to we can enjoy in the future the best Linux operating systems ever. Congrats to PClinuxOS! However my black still with Vector 5.8 KDE, Wolvix Hunter 1.05 and Puppy 2.02 Office.
93 • PCLOS / Vaio Laptop (by Dwayne on 2007-09-19 18:18:58 GMT from United States)
I just read an Informationweek commentary on why Linux will never have a significant share of desktops verses you know who. I'm not a "fanatic" for PCLOS. But I have recently replaced XP on my Vaio with PCLOS-2007 and have been very impressed with how it performs. The few times I have had to ask questions on the forums, I was answered in a friendly manor. However I have had no contact with the forums as of -2007...since it just plain worked.
Being interested in multimedia (I'm always looking) I plan to take the "Jad" for a drive.
In passing, about #80, I am 52 years old and love to fish here in Minnesota. Troll on! Thanks, Distrowatch for the great work!
94 • @88 • DDoS Might Have Been PCLOS Fans (by Willie) (by Sigi on 2007-09-19 18:19:44 GMT from Austria)
:) Willie for president!
It was a very good one and i have been using PCLOS for 2 years.
95 • Distrowatch is Great! Needs Just One New Feature ... (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 18:29:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
A script that deletes any comment that whines about the PHR, HPDs, ranking, etc. [And yes, I realize that this comment would be thrown out as well as a result, which is fine by me] Then, the percentage of value-adding posts would increase dramatically.
Ladislav ... thanks for a GREAT site, and for all the hard work you do, and for the extra effort you put in these last few days to get the site up an running again.
96 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 18:33:06 GMT from United States)
>> just ask Linus Torvalds about his view points of gnome lol <<
Yes, LOL indeed, as that is the lamest logic I've ever heard. If Linus likes to use KDE what in the world does that have to do with the best DE for a newbie? Wow. You do realize that he was, like, the guy who originally wrote the Linux kernel, and has used Linux longer than anyone else?
>> I just read an Informationweek commentary on why Linux will never have a significant share of desktops <<
And we all know how much that is worth, don't we? I'd bet it was written by a journalist, not someone with an accurate crystal ball.
97 • JackLab 1.0 and my personal Linux revolution (by Daniel MacDonald on 2007-09-19 18:40:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
I've been using Linux now for 11 years but I've never felt the urge to try to introduce it to any of my friends because I was still awaiting a free, easy distro that did EVERYTHING I wanted it to WITHOUT the need for a fast broadband internet connection that works with Linux (ethernet as it normally is) AND for them to understand how to setup a package manager AND then also then know what packages and extra libs they'd need to do anything more than edit text and look at pictures under Linux. Its sad that 95% of distros don't support MP3 out-of-the-box, yes its for legal reasons out of their control, but this is one of the main reasons PCLOS has become so popular as its one of the few to include the MASSIVELY important feature of pre-configured MP3 playback.
Saturday 15th Sept 2007 is a day I won't forget. It was the day before my brother's 25th birthday and I got hold of JackLab 1.0- the first distro I can give to people and know they'll be getting a fully usable multimedia system straight after installation- its the first version of Linux I think that has real mainstream appeal and I personally see this as a landmark event in computing. JackLab is one of the few distros which does have full MP3 support in its audio apps and in k3b. It is also probably the only distro that includes the latest KDEnlive (which is VERY cool! A powerful and easy open source video editor has arrived!), the very latest Ardour + Rosegarden + zynaddsubfx + specimen, DeVeDe (for movie->video DVD), xdtv (for analogue and DVB TV capture), Avidemux, dvd::rip, cinelerra, mplayer, loads of plug-ins, GIMP, kino, xsane... it has it all!
I want to thank Appleonkel for being so helpful and responsive to my suggestions for JADs improvement, metasymbol for realising JAD, Tony G - fastest packager in the west, Guru, Packman and the rest of the JAD team for providing the most amazing distribution and support I've ever known! Of course, there'd be no Jack in JackLab without the incredible work of Paul Davis and the Lab bit might belong to the openSUSE devs- thanks everyone!
A very happy JackLab user
98 • Downtime and PCLOS (by voislav on 2007-09-19 18:45:41 GMT from Canada)
It's nice to see DW back up, it was a weird Monday morning without it (computer check, a cup of tea check, DWW wtf?).
I don't know why people put so much weight into DW rankings, it's a measure of interest rather than popularity. A lot of new or potential users are directed to this site, so the sample is not very representative. With all the press that PCLOS generated over the last year, it's not suprising that they are on top. It was very similar with Ubuntu, which came with a lot of buzz and contraversy (they are stealing our Debian and all that). In that sense you can't really blame Texstar for milking the publicity or maybe creating some of the contraversy, he is doing what is best for his distro.
99 • Tired of idiots blahbling... (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 18:52:28 GMT from Mexico)
I just want to say that I tired to read all the same visceral blah blah against PCLinuxOS (or other distro). I'm sad what Linux world has become, with lost of morons and idiots bashing each other. Just get a life!!
100 • So, on to MACH Shutdown? (by just john on 2007-09-19 19:07:46 GMT from United States)
Haven't tried MACH BOOT, but it sounds neat.
So, how long does it take to do an orderly shutdown? That's a process I'd like sped up.
(And congrats on surviving the DDoS attack. They seem to be having a prolonged temper tantrum against all that's right with the WWW.)
101 • Texstar interview (by Swooping Eagle on 2007-09-19 19:07:56 GMT from N/A)
Just look at the psychopathic anti-PCLinuxOS posts here today and it is apparent
why Texstar would not want to feed these lunatics.
By googling you can come up with a couple of Texstar interviews easily.
Apparently it drives some fanboys bonkers that a small band of dedicated
individuals can turn out a product that many consider superior to the well
Here is an excerpt from a recent post by Texstar on his forums:
" Thanks to the Ripper Gang for all their hours of work. Thanks to Mandriva for letting us utilize their codebase for PCLinuxOS and all the people who have given so much of their time helping us enjoy Linux technology and share it with friends who might like it as well. Linux market share wont come from a single distribution but from the entire Linux community. I'm glad there is a Ubuntu, Suse, Mandriva, Fedora, Mint and Mepis as well as all the other flavors of Linux. It is all Linux and it is all good. So thank you again from the bottom of my heart for allowing us to be part of this wonderful revolution. "
This man is BIGGER than all you nitwit detractors.
102 • Ubuntu is the Windows of the Linux world? (by Thomas on 2007-09-19 19:11:41 GMT from United States)
To the PCLinuxOS fan who believes that Ubuntu is the Windows of the Linux world, "look in the mirror." In other words, look at PCLinuxOS' default theme. I'm not even an Ubuntu user (I'm a Mac user who's interested in Elive and Zenwalk), but I think that using the Windows XP look is a pathetic cop-out.
103 • "get a life" (by toobad on 2007-09-19 19:11:47 GMT from N/A)
right, get one, because if somebody has a bad experience with a distro then what are they supposed to do besides move on? TELL people about it in forums and blogs, etc.
This "bashing" cliche is absurd in most cases.. I read through this forum today and see only people such as the post99 "anonymous" jerks coming in and saying things like "I'm sad what Linux world has become" etc as if complaining and reporting one's expereriences is what "the Linux world" is.
Positive experiences are trashed, too, as "fanboys." If there is anything wrong with the forums of Linux it is some people's inability to accept other's opinions about distros.
104 • PCLinuxOS (by Chris on 2007-09-19 19:27:42 GMT from United States)
When I tried PCLinuxOS, it was extremely slow, and I couldn't configure anything. Very over-rated.
105 • My wish (by Gilbert Boisvert on 2007-09-19 19:31:15 GMT from United States)
Based on this web-site, there are a lot of distros that I would like to try. But since I'm using a laptop, and I stopped using Windows in this machine, there are very few Linux versions that I could utilize in this machine. The problem is the wireless support. In most distributions, it is non-existent unless one uses ndiswrap, and borrow the drivers from Windows. Anyway, going that way uses up a lot of time that could be applied to doing something else.
My selection has now been narrowed to Freespire. I just need to install it, put in the correct parameters in the wireless application, and voila, I'm off and runninng! It sure is nice when the proper codecs are there and ready to be used!
Yep, it sure would be nice if I could do the same thing with all the Linux distributions!
106 • welcome back (by jaslar on 2007-09-19 19:34:58 GMT from United States)
Sorry for your troubles, Ladislav, but great work getting the site back up so fast. I was worried. Distrowatch is definitely part of the Monday routine.
As for the distro bashing, somehow, after years of just fooling around, I wound up settling on two distros. Now, years later, they are the top two on Distrowatch. Ubuntu at work, PCLinuxOS at home. Both good, both a little different. It's like having two friends. I don't spend all my time when I'm with one of them, dissing the other. Silly!
107 • PCLinuxOS (by Bryan on 2007-09-19 19:39:53 GMT from Canada)
I have been using ubuntu since the dapper betas, and overall ed/k/ubuntu has been great for my purposes. Before ubuntu I used mostly Mandrake/Mandriva, but I had tried the gamut at the time: mepis, fedora, suse, debian. I really liked the package management of debian-based systems, but in reality they vary little from one to another. Using a Linux system varies more on whether you are using gnome, kde, or something else than on what distro you are using. Managing the system is what is really affected by the distro.
I don't think I am a fanboy (except maybe for Linux). The time or two I have tried a pclinuxos livecd it worked fine, even great maybe. Now that it has hit the top of the charts, I might have a little more interest, but I certainly harbor no antipathy towards pclinuxos. The sudden rush to defend one's own distro and offfend the others is just sad.
108 • Study (by Whitespiral on 2007-09-19 19:52:41 GMT from Mexico)
All this inter-distro controversies can be resolved somewhat easily: We don't need more distro reviews, we need a study.
We need a set of 10 or more computers, each with different hardware components, and then install the top 20 or so distros, gathering as much information as possible (boot times, size of default installation, default features, etc).
Then, the usability part of the study: For each distro, sit 50 people in front of them, all of different ages, sexes, and different levels of computer literacy, Have them perform a complete set of tasks: Play songs, open files, all of different formats, browse the web, etc. Then let them freely describe what their experience was like for each distro used.
Note: The users don't install the different distros.
I'm sure there are very capable people out there who can make this a reality.
The results might surprise us all.
109 • Enabling Compiz Fusion by default ? (by Kevin on 2007-09-19 19:59:42 GMT from Canada)
I don't understand why Ubuntu would enable Compiz by default on their next release. I'm against it for a reason you wouldn't guess : those special effects sicken me (literally) as do most games, especially First Person Shooters. They make me feel dizzy, as if I'm going to have a bout of epilepsy, even though I'm not epileptic. I have the same reaction while watching flickering images (ads, flashes, ...) on television. I even tried to enable Metisse on Mandriva 2007 but couldn't stand it. I guess the next time I install a distro, the first thing I'll do is turn off those 3D widgets. It's too bad because Compiz looks cool.
I sympathize with Distrowatch for their DDOS misfortunes. That attack was probably launched by some guy trying to impress their friends. Distrowatch is the site to visit for the latest distro news; that makes it a high profile target for pranksters. Luckily, it wasn't defaced.
110 • 30 • PCLinuxOS On Laptop (by Ronald L. Gibson on 2007-09-19 12:21:10 GMT from Un (by Warlock on 2007-09-19 19:59:50 GMT from United States)
If you use the control center and create a new wireless device.. It will ask you for the windows Drivers.. (Its a front end for ndiswrapper) Just give it the drivers and TAADAA!.. I have PCLOS-07 working on an old Dell C640 with the Broadcom wireless just fine. If you need help let me know and I will be happy to email you!
111 • No subject (by Hooke on 2007-09-19 20:08:24 GMT from Spain)
"Note: The users don't install the different distros."
Then I predict the "most usable distro" will be a LFS installed and tuned by some geek :)
112 • The page hit rankings (by Duncan Snowden on 2007-09-19 20:09:26 GMT from United Kingdom)
Well done getting the site back up. I hear the Ubuntu forum suffered an attack recently too. I hope it's just coincidence, and not someone who has it in for Linux.
Isn't the best description of the distro at the top of the page rankings that it's the one people are most interested in? They may not end up installing it, but they want to know about it.
113 • From FreeBSD to Debian.Why ? (by Gabriel on 2007-09-19 20:19:01 GMT from Spain)
It has been a surprise to read about the moving from FreeBSD to Debian. A surprise because I've playing with these two OS during last week to final decide what server to use on my company for website and file sharing.
I'm not going to tell my final choice. I'm not an expert to judge with security what would be the best OS for web server propouses, but I can ensure that is faster to have a fully functional server with Debian because you don't need to compile everything. Also its nown that Debian stable is stable.
By other hand, and reffering to the DoS, I remember that FreeBSD was winner on 'computer fights' in the Chaos Computer Camps, so I will be very happy, as others, if the Boss explain what has make him to try Debian (Etch I suppose).
Anyway, from this side, any difference ? This is the best.
114 • @109: Default Compiz Fusion (by Draca on 2007-09-19 20:33:18 GMT from United States)
My guess is that the Ubuntu community has been clamoring for it.
115 • Distro Watch and Win32 Debian Installer (by Jesse at 2007-09-19 20:38:18 GMT from Canada)
Ladislav, glad you're back on-line. I was starting to think you'd taken a much deserved vacation.
Recently I tried installing Debian on a laptop using the Win32 installer from goodbye-microsoft.com. (The laptop had WinXP on it and no CD drive.) The installer seemed to work really well until it came time to install GRUB or lilo and then it failed, making the laptop unbootable.
Has anyone else tried this installer and how did it work for you?
116 • 109 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 20:44:01 GMT from United States)
I agree, most of the effects are useless wastes of resources. Hot corners and maybe some window previews are about the only thing I've found that improve productivity. The fact that Mac and Windows have them is not a good reason to turn them on by default in Linux.
117 • 115 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 20:47:52 GMT from United States)
I haven't used this specific installer, but the ones I've tried (including Wubi I think is the name) didn't work.
Did you get your laptop to boot again.
118 • ISP (by Jim on 2007-09-19 21:00:38 GMT from United States)
How well do ISP's help out with DDOS? In some past stories, the ISP keep pushing the filters further and further out to help their own network.
119 • PCLinuxOS #1 (by GreenWolf70 on 2007-09-19 21:14:25 GMT from United States)
Been using Linux for 2 years now. I quit trying to figure out how to configure all the different distros to get them to run on my PCs. I boot them up and they either run or they don't. PCLinuxOS has booted off the CD and run on every PC that I have tried it on (6 currently in my house). For some reason wireless causes problems with most other distros. Bellsouth spent 3 weeks (many phone calls. 4 visits by their field rep and 3 new routers) setting up my DSL/router/wireless with multiple static IPs for my business Windows boxes. I asked for help on my Linux boxes and they choked and said they didn't know anything about Linux. I turned on my PCLinuxOS box and it auto configured. The Bellsouth rep said he had never seen anything like it and that he was going to try Linux after witnessing that.
I also think Sabayon is one of the best up and coming 64 bit distros.
120 • PCLinuxOS (by Watcher on 2007-09-19 21:59:23 GMT from Canada)
Like or dislike the PClinuxOS distro, give credit where it is due, they took a small distro and thrust it to the top of the list, no small feat if you ask me. The developers of the community distro's give of their time and expertise to developing these operating systems for you and I.
You may not like a certain distro, you may not like their forums either, but these are volunteers that give freely of their time and expertise to the Linux community.
You may not like a certain distro but remember if it was not for these people in the Linux community the choice would be smaller and the Linux community would be a lot smaller without them.
So next time your distro does not make number one, be a little more gentle in spirit and show some class. These distro's, number one or not are the ones that make up the Linux community.
121 • Reason for switching O.S.? (by Lucien Taylor on 2007-09-19 22:09:31 GMT from Canada)
I was wondering why you switched from FreeBSD to Debian. Is it because you think Debian is more secure than FreeBSD, or was it just time for a change?
122 • put your hipwaders on (by hab on 2007-09-19 22:19:24 GMT from Canada)
The bullshite that gets spread around here is just fscking laughable!
Like post #104 above. What an a**hole statement. That is only your experience, not mine or other peoples! It works fine for me. So does (k)ubuntu, debian, mandriva, fedora, suse, etc. Makes me understand that the truly clueless are, unfortunately, everywhere!
It suggests to me that some linux adopters would better spend time reading documentation and learning then spreading misinformation.
For those like #104, please get a fscking clue!
123 • DDoS attack (by Sam Exner on 2007-09-19 22:20:15 GMT from United States)
Whew! I thought that distrowatch had just died over the weekend. Thanks for putting all that work into getting this site back up :)
124 • PCLinuxOS (by RonPerry on 2007-09-19 22:28:56 GMT from United States)
I like it - - - Very Much. I have tried a lot of the other distributions and although I have liked some parts of the others, I find PCLinuxOS the best for me. I also recommend it to others.
125 • three cheers for DW! (by Anonymous on 2007-09-19 22:33:01 GMT from United States)
Congrats on getting back online. Who would ever do such a thing? If it's primitive, guess it would have to be some stupid, bored teen.
I don't think I even realized how much I loved this site (despite it checking it daily for months) until it went down, lol!
126 • RE:78 (by JAG on 2007-09-19 23:00:29 GMT from United States)
Hey Hugh...check this out!
The Rapture on 5/21/2011 ??
Judgement Day on 10/21/2011 ??
5 months of torment 5/21 to 10/21 ??
127 • Kudos To Ladislav, His Helpers, and to the Mirror Sites (by Soloact on 2007-09-19 23:02:51 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, I sure hope you get some good rest before diving in and reading all of these comments. I was wondering what had happened when I couldn't get DW directly, but could see it on the mirror sites. Kudos to you and whomever helped you get rid of the menace. Hope that you're somehow able to catch the one who did this to you. Kudos also to those who kept up to date with the mirror sites. An healthy pat-on-the-back to all of you.
128 • Hmm (by Landor on 2007-09-19 23:08:27 GMT from Canada)
It would seem that aside from the daily page hits the PCLOS fanbois were prepared for an article in DWW and were ready to take up the torch quickly.
Out of the box, after I opened it, and plugged in all the needed parts, Gentoo with nothing but cutting edge hardware worked for me, how's that for radically simple...
Keep your stick on the ice...
129 • Gald you're back! (by Jason Hammersley on 2007-09-19 23:19:18 GMT from N/A)
Firstly, congratulations in defeating the DDoS attack levelled at Distro Watch a few days ago. It’s good to see you back and unharmed.
We have a new number one distro and that’s seems to have upset a lot of people, though I fail to understand why that should be.
My experience with PCLinuxOS has been a pleasant one, it’s a competent distribution and the chief maintainer is a credit to Linux. As are most of the other members of the team, though one of the forum moderators seems to be totally lacking in people skills, as are some (a small minority) of the membership.
As a Mandriva user I have to say that PCLinuxOS has done a good deal to further Linux and I’m perfectly happy to see Mandriva’s (and other distro’s) components and packages being used to produce a distribution that many people find useful to them.
Well done to Linux and also to the people who have the courage to weather the tirade of the unreasonable, who have nothing better to do than criticize.
I’m dual booting Mandy and Stux at the moment, I’m always happy to test out a “one man “ distro rather than just the most well financed, most “popular” distros. I think most visitors to DW have the same (unbiased) attitude.
Methinks your stick will shrink too much if frozen for too long, that might reduce your popularity with the ladies (or boys) to sub-zero. ;-)
130 • RE: 117 -- Debian win32 installer (by JesseS on 2007-09-19 23:35:30 GMT from Canada)
Sadly, the installer only failed after it had formatted my hard drive
and tried to install GRUB. I was unable to boot it again. I tried running
command lines from GRUB, but I kept getting kernel panics.
131 • 97 • JackLab 1.0 plus other stuff (by Daniel MacDonald) (by Fractalguy on 2007-09-19 23:42:52 GMT from United States)
It is good to have DW back!!
re #97 "ts sad that 95% of distros don't support MP3 out-of-the-box, yes its for legal reasons out of their control, but this is one of the main reasons PCLOS has become so popular as its one of the few to include the MASSIVELY important feature of pre-configured MP3 playback."
I think you need to check you facts re mp3 playback. Of the distros I follow, Debian is one of the most picky in regard to legalities here. And now with strict laws about IP in Germany, it is interesting that sidux, the Debian SID based distro includes mp3 playback with Amarok. I'm booted in sidux live CD right now downloading machboot (looks like a 20 hour down load) and listening to a mp3 financial discussion. Most distros I try can do mp3, so please find a different differentiator. I don't see mp3 playing as the issue.
As an off and mostly on PCLos user for 4 years, I find it more than interesting that PCLos is now number one. How about that remark about PCLos fans being the source of DOS attack here via their ligit checking out of PCLos.
Well it reminds me of the SCO group complaining that Linux or Groklaw was behind the attack on their corporate servers. LOL. They were wrong, but at the time SCO was deleting parts of their web site anytime a point of evidence was mentioned on Groklaw. A few members, I suspect, downloaded the SCO site in total to preserve it for the litigation. I know I grabbed a copy of Linux source code too. hehe.
I've shown, demoed, and pushed Linux to a number of potential users and so far they have always selected *buntu. The install count is at 3 Ubuntu and 1 Kubuntu. At one point I thought it was the trust factor of a polished printed CD in a cover vs. my home burned CD with hand written Sharpie label. [shrug] I showed them PCLos, Mint, *buntu, DSL, Mepis, and a few more from my stack of 80 plus different distros.
BTW, I found KateOS 3.6-LIVE pretty good, 1280x1024 worked, Xfce4 looked good, played music, edited html with Bluefish, etc. Not bad.
Too bad my monitor just died so I'm using a 10 year old 1024x768. I won't be getting a new one for $ome time. I gets my goat that this
is happening. They are likely going to be destroying monitors and computers better than I struggle with here. Methinks money comes too easily to California. Shame on California!
132 • Mach Boot (by ShakaZ on 2007-09-20 00:15:55 GMT from Belgium)
Could any o the lucky guys who have managed to get a copy of Mach Boot please set up a torrent so we could try it?
The download server has been failing every time i tried to download the iso since i read about this new distro here
133 • RE: 122 (by Landor on 2007-09-20 00:17:01 GMT from Canada)
"put your hipwaders on"
I agree, but not in regard to 104's post......
His post was to the point and concise.
He tried it, didn't work for him, and he considers it over-rated.
I've tried it, it's slow, not all hardware worked properly, and I feel it's over-rated just because it has the control centre from Mandriva and proprietary codecs/drivers.
I could compare it to many distros that are a lot faster, one of which a single developer alone works on the project, nimblex. I'm no Slacker but I'd take it as a slack fork over PCLOS anyday because the guy really knows what radically simple means. Fast, light, and the software you want to choose.
Keep your stick on the ice...
134 • PCLOS (by NuDu on 2007-09-20 00:32:56 GMT from United States)
I use a Linux distro only so I don't have to use windows. I've tried many. I've liked many, I've installed many. In the end PCLOS is what I use and recommend. I don't know what's more windows like about PCLOS vs. any other KDE distro. I feel they are all about the same. Why then? It's all the small things, when I click an e-mail address in FFox, TBird opens, flash works, java works, PDF works, networking works, iPod works, and I didn't have to setup up a thing. I don't want to learn linux, I just want to be able to do the things that you normally would do with a pc. That's why I don't have Gentoo. It's not for ME.
Lastly about distro bashers, I ignore your comments as I know you have no clue about yourself, your distro, and the world!
135 • PCLinuxOS (by ShakaZ on 2007-09-20 00:37:22 GMT from Belgium)
At first i was quite pleased at pclinuxos, really liked the configuration manager (apparently that more thanks to Mandriva but i haven't checked it since the Mandrake days due to their commercial nature). The GUI managed to configure my ndiswrapper loaded wifi dongle which has not been the case with other distros i tried.
But then it only took me a week to break PCLinuxOS. After updating some minor stuff it couldn't boot anymore, i've managed to bot it anyways using some workarounds but something was broken in the normal Grub boot... As this is the first distro that has had this issue i didn't look further into it...
136 • What it means to be a fanbois (by Landor on 2007-09-20 00:42:28 GMT from Canada)
The one thing I always find sad in regard to the guys heavily defending their mentally acclaimed distro of choice is the simple fact that they normally do it by slurring other's intelligence, mentality, comments and choices. Especially if it's where you used the distro and dislike a specific thing or things.
Oh, and for 134, I'd bet my right nut that I know more about myself, my distro or linux, and the four corners of the world than you do simply based on your post.
Keep your stick on the ice...
137 • 80, 128, 133, 136 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 00:53:28 GMT from United States)
Landor, your anti-fanbois rants come off as pretty trollish.
138 • #133 Landor. (by Jason Hammersley on 2007-09-20 00:53:47 GMT from N/A)
You clearly have problems that only you can solve.
I won't suggest getting a girlfriend as that seems to be a non- starter from the outset.
You should eat more fruit and vegetables and get a little sunshine occasionally though, that's good advice for everyone.
It might be better for real people that you stay in your internet cave and be less vociferous in future though, that equates to shutting up and being less of a bore.
Why should any normal person give you advice and be concerned about your wellbeing? I shudder to think.
Just my very humble opinion, of course.
139 • re#133 (by hab on 2007-09-20 01:02:55 GMT from Canada)
quote from #104
"and I couldn't configure anything".
Yep. Real concise! And on point!
Sounds more like a sweeping generalization to me.
That statement implies (at least to me) that (s)he could not even get it running to the point that (s)he could assess IF it was slow or fast!
As for your own experience Landor, that is, of course, YOUR experience. Others mileage may vary.
I happen to run pclinuxos! I am happy with it. From my experience, on my hardware it does a yeomans job and my subjective perception is that it doesn't seem to run much slower or quicker than any other full blown distro i've used. And i've been on linux exclusively for a dozen years. I don't run dual boot or emulate vole crap. Wine serves my needs adequately.
As to your assertion about pclinuxos' speed versus others, barring your publishing quantifiable data, is at best hearsay.
140 • Gentoo is radically simple (by skyhunter on 2007-09-20 01:12:51 GMT from Canada)
Hello i'm landors son if you want a distro that actually works and you don't have any cluter in your menu's it's gentoo you want.Hey i'm fourteen and i just unmasked a package from the terminal so you people say you want something simploe actually try gentoo and don't dump it because it's just to hard to install go all the way and when you been using gentoo for a couple of months then voice your opinion
141 • Subject? Landor of course! (by Landor on 2007-09-20 01:17:05 GMT from Canada)
First re 133:
"Why should any normal person give you advice and be concerned about your wellbeing?" I shudder to think
Since you gave me advice during that post before that comment, are you saying you are not a normal person?
It's easily verified. Do a 100 meg download of NimbleX with KDE and run it side by side PCLOS. :) As I said, I'm not slacker fan, but it's preferable to...
RE: 137 (finally)
A DWW first someone who is Anti-Anti-Fanbois, and here I thought I saw it all in here.
Constructive criticism folks. When Gentoo was taking it dry over a problem that originated with Sabayon a few weeks ago I stood wholeheartedly behind Gentoo and it's update system via portage. Not did I once knock someone else's gender, intelligence, race, choice. I refuted the various offhanded comments with little regard.
If my posts here are seen as trolling, so be it, your perception, trolling in my opinion is looking for something you don't like and basically call another an idiot for it.
But as per your perception, I will continue to troll as "you" call it, but I call it my 2 cents, until Ladislav either e-mails me or temp bans me for a legit reason I would hope.
Keep your stick on the ice...
142 • re: 140 (by Landor on 2007-09-20 01:21:18 GMT from Canada)
I know I don't most of the time either, but check your punctuation and typos :)
Also try to stay kind've on topic with the current weekly, Gentoo's not an issue here (today anyway) lol and make sure you don't bash anyone, I won't defend you if you do. I've told you this if you ever talked in a forum and brought it on yourself, and I'd be the first to agree with having you ousted for it to.
Keep your stick on the ice boy...
143 • Landor (by Jason Hammersley on 2007-09-20 01:25:11 GMT from N/A)
Are you really asking me if I think you are normal?
Do you think your obsessions are normal?
I won't insult you further but I do recommend you seek some professional advice.
No malice intended. ;-)
144 • Landor yet again. (by Landor on 2007-09-20 01:35:31 GMT from Canada)
No malice intended, and I know your intentionally misconstrued my meaning, as I of course did the same with yours.
Further showing how easily something can be changed via perception, or intellect.
If you'd like to see who'd end up on top of a mind game of words and feel like they'd need some kind of "help", my e-mail is in every comment :)
I warn you though, I have a Phd in Clinical Psychology :)
Keep your stick on the ice...
145 • re@141 (by hab on 2007-09-20 01:39:50 GMT from Canada)
quote from my post#139
"full blown distro"
I am to take it that nimblex is a full blown (all the bells and whistles) distro then? For the sake of comparison and completeness please clarify!
And i can't help but notice the failure to address the comments/discussion about post #104. Very facile!
Methinks you've kept your stick on the ice and it seems to have frozen in place ;-).
146 • RE: 113 (by Mike on 2007-09-20 01:41:58 GMT from United States)
147 • Some interesting info (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 01:55:21 GMT from Australia)
Linux is really taking off all around the world. America should get it now before we are left behind.
India - http://digg.com/linux_unix/Free_software_made_mandatory_in_India
Russia - http://eng.cnews.ru/news/top/indexEn.shtml?2007/09/14/266177
Sweden - http://digg.com/linux_unix/Sweden_s_Largest_State_Pharmacy_Prescribed_Linux
Vietnam - http://digg.com/linux_unix/Vietnam_Says_Buh_bye_to_Microsoft_Office_Chooses_OpenOffice_org
Desktop Linux has DOUBLED - http://digg.com/linux_unix/desktop_linux_users_doubled
148 • Major OpenOffice.org Deployments (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 01:59:24 GMT from Australia)
149 • Perhaps one can find the reson/s below why Textar might be (by Reluctant re DWW Interview on 2007-09-20 02:55:16 GMT from Australia)
Re: PCLinuxOS is now Nº 1 in DistroWatch over 6 months!!!!
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2007,»
Quote from: texstar on September 15, 2007M
I'm cautiously optimistic the numbers are an accurate measurement of interest in PCLinuxOS and hope that someone hasn't played a mean joke on us by manipulating the numbers. Either way I guess we'll be ok. I wouldn't put too much into the rankings as it doesn't mean there are more users using PCLinuxOS than other distros or PCLinuxOS is better.
At the risk of bursting the bubble of cautious optimism, it's worth noting that PCLOS gets its highest ratings on the measures where it's easiest for someone to bias the results, whether accidentally or deliberately. (A hit counter is a prime example.)
What's genuinely odd is that the metrics that are harder to influence (independent traffic monitors, for instance, or a simple count of backlinks on the Web) all tell a totally different story. In that story, the "contest" isn't even close; Ubuntu has all the buzz.
(And before the fanboys get out their flamethrowers, I'm not even remotely suggesting that "more buzz = better distro." Buzz is just buzz, period.)
What I am suggesting is that a victory dance is probably premature. As far as I am aware, on any measure that isn't easy to fudge, *buntu still garners quite literally 10 times (at minimum) the attention of PCLOS. (Which, as Texstar quite correctly points out, does not mean *buntu is 10 times better... just 10 times more visible.)
I wonder how many people come to PCLOS, see multiple distro-bashing threads active in these forums, or find a distro-bashing feature article in the official PCLOS Magazine, and decide to simply click away?
Ultimately, if the DW stats are even remotely true, it means that people are coming, but they are not staying.
It's probably worthwhile to wonder why.
Re: PCLinuxOS is now Nº 1 in DistroWatch over 6 months!!!!
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2007
That's not quite how the DW figures work. You assume each click is a seperate person. It most definitely is not. Each IP address is allowed 1 click per day. Thus, 3,000 people could easily put any distro at the top of DW at this point in time if they each simply clicked on the link 1 time every day for 6 months.
150 • No subject (by winsnomore on 2007-09-20 02:58:08 GMT from United States)
Ladislav .. may be you can explain
PClinuxOS is sucking winds out of everyone .. but mostly Ubuntu.
Ubunu has dropped > 700 HPD .. others have lost < 200 or so in less than 1 week.
I can't attribute it to being new #1 .. I don't recall 7 day average of Ubuntu going near 3.3K+ ... even during it's peak ..what gives?
Look at pathetic state of Mepis/Mandriva .. it's truly amazing, I don't mind, I love em all but mostly pclinuxos lol
151 • PCLinuxOS is the leader, it's not just a winner of distrowatch HPD (by Manmath Sahu on 2007-09-20 03:59:06 GMT from India)
I went through your pilot editorial: "PCLinuxOS - the new Number One distribution," wherein you wrote, "Being number one on DistroWatch does NOT mean that PCLinuxOS is the most popular distribution, nor does it mean that it is the best distribution; it simply means... ..."
If any means I have to go by your assumption than PCLinuxOS's high HPD is not the only criterion of its being the desktop leader, then I must say at least Ubuntu has never been a leader.
The reasons are plain. First, the Ubuntu hoopla is created by its rapid release cycle and more than dozens of its official and unofficial respins. People's choice for Ubuntu has been to some extent, is shaped by this condition. And second, the Canonical connection + Shipit program. You must agree, internet has not penetrated to most parts of the third world. They can't download even the LiveCDs, let alone the jumbo Linux DVDs. They just go by Ubuntu's Shipit program.
By this I don't mean to say that Ubuntu is not a good distro, I have no personal grudge with Ubuntu, Shipit or Mark (the patron). I am happy that they help so many linux wannabe's.
But... but... I have tried both Ubuntu Feisty and PCLinuxOS 2007 for quite a long time now. And I found PCLinuxOS is better in all respects. So, no more political play, if people said Ubuntu is a leader for all the undue adulation, they must, now, agree that PCLinuxOS is a good desktop, for all the good reasons.
Believe it, or not.
152 • HPD means interest not popularity (by hobbitland on 2007-09-20 06:49:29 GMT from China)
Hi, I think HPD determines interest in a distribution and not its popularity. I am settled on Ubuntu now with Virtual Box for running Windoz stuff.
I don't go to Ubuntu page at all but the Ubuntu site directly. I come to DW only for the DWW and comments. This is probably the same for a lot of other distros like OpenSuSE and Fedora etc... If its not for DWW I won't even come to DW at all. DW is for people who are distro hopping.
If there are a lot of HPD but not many hits form google then means that means many people had interest in a distro, clicked on its page and ddn't like it.
I have tried PCLinuxOS and didn't like it at all. I need 32bit/64bit support at the same time and Chinese support which I can get with Ubuntu 64bit. I see that PCLinuxOS has no plans for 64bit or non-English support.
153 • RE 152 PClos language support (by dbrion on 2007-09-20 07:33:03 GMT from France)
PCloss has today no language support, except americanEnglish (which makes their "popularity" funny, as the growth rate of us DW readers is much slower than in other non English speaking countries). SAM can support many European languages (but is not that popular, though she openly clones PClos, sharing her manuals, developpers/packagers : the desktop is not the same (xfce for SAM, KDE [ it seems the only part they did not download from Mandriva] for PClos).
A developper of PClos claimed in DWW comments in June that PClos was trying to get internationalized (as they have become n 1, they are almost obliged to do that, [ I think he was sincere and fair] and it is hard work ifthey have little material ressources -the size of the CDs/DVDs increases, and they/their loovers already seem to suffer from limited download sites )....
154 • PCLOS on my desktop (by Clint Christopher Canada on 2007-09-20 09:52:23 GMT from Philippines)
Although I use debian/centos on the servers at work (and Ubuntu server edition on one of the machines), I use PCLOS at home primarily as my home OS. Ubuntu was never my primary home OS, because it doesn't seem to like my hardware much (sound not working, some minor quibbles).
Although I admit that the RC versions of PCLOS were not really optimal (I'm a power user and I tinker with the OS and have managed to break it a number of times), I just had the opportunity of installing the 2007 stable version. And I'm quite satisfied with the result. I'm running it now on my Pentium D machine with a 19" widescreen Samsung LCD monitor (which it correctly detected at the proper highest resolution).
Only complaints I have are that some applications (practically games in the repository) that I was curious about, but they don't run at all. Overall, it's a pleasant experience.
155 • DistroWatch hit by a DDoS attack (by johncoom on 2007-09-20 10:40:21 GMT from Australia)
Ladislav yours is not the only site that was afected and attacked recently and temporally brought down. Over the last month I have heard of several others as well. It seems that the sites have especially and selecively been targeted just to give them a little disruption (say 3-4 +- days) ?
156 • 151 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 12:10:16 GMT from United States)
It's the whole package, dude. If you can access Ubuntu but not PCLOS, Ubuntu is obviously the better distro.
If you like KDE, speak American English, have unlimited broadband access, and have a reasonable amount of experience with Linux distros, you will probably prefer PCLOS.
Does it really matter?
157 • PC Linux seems okay but... (by t. on 2007-09-20 13:19:05 GMT from Canada)
I am not a fan of kde systems. Using a few different kde systems before (Kbuntu, Freespire 1.0) I have always noticed that KDE is just way to busy. They always try to cram as many items in the task and start bar as they can and is hard to navigate. If they had a gnome dist or xfce I would be glad to try. Although I opensuse offers free cds liek ubuntu. Maybe I will try that,
158 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 14:01:36 GMT from United States)
What I find funniest about KDE is the claim that Windows users will feel more comfortable with KDE than GNOME.
Putting the button in the lower left corner makes it no more comfortable to Windows users than putting a dress on OJ Simpson makes him a woman. It's still Linux. It's different. It's also better. Why falsely claim to be cloning an inferior product?
It's hilarious when KDE users claim KDE is better because of the configuration options.
"I like GNOME better because I can find my applications easily."
"But KDE has 4,835,235,235,979,098,432 different configuration options. How can you possibly put up with the limited configuration options in GNOME?"
"I just want to check my email!"
"No problem, let me find it for you in the menu. Shouldn't take more than 20 minutes."
"I'm going back to Windows."
"Wait! You don't have all the different themes to choose from with Windows! You're nuts!"
159 • PCLOS/UBUNTU (by whocares on 2007-09-20 14:21:21 GMT from Finland)
Someones was arguing which one is more new user friendly KDE or Gnome. Back in 2000/01 when i started my linux journey i found wery annoying Kde application naming i mean Kthis Kthat Kword it was just so ridiculous when you switched from micro$oft world. Okay same with Gthis and Gthis but at least Ubuntu has named applications for USERS! Besides KDE looks like cheapXP cmon!Ubuntu looks ELEGANT(yeah i know its brown ;)).
160 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 15:48:17 GMT from France)
I agree that KDE menus and access to settings should be improved. OTHO, Gnome's handling of that problem is to not offer access to these settings. Same goes for Xfce. I'd rather have imperfect access than no access. I guess that they are ways to do these tweakings on Gnome, but I suspect it takes more time than going through 5 silly submenus.
161 • openSUSE 10.3 RC1 (by Media and Download on 2007-09-20 16:11:04 GMT from Australia)
Media and Download
openSUSE 10.3 RC1 for i386, x86-64 and ppc is available as different media sets. All can be downloaded at software.openSUSE.org/developer. Here’s the run-down:
* 1 DVD containing OSS and NonOSS software (torrents for: i386, x86_64, ppc). Languages supported: English, Portuguese, French, Italian, Spanish, German, Chinese (Simpl. & Trad.), Japanese, Russian, Czech, Hungarian, Polish, Finnish, Danish, Swedish, Dutch
* 1 CD with a default KDE installation (i386, x86_64, not for ppc, English only)
* 1 CD with a default GNOME installation (i386, x86_64, not for ppc, English only)
* 1 AddOn CD with only NonOSS packages (i386 or x86_64, ppc)
* 1 AddOn CD with language packages that are used for extra languages (i386, x86_64, ppc, only to be used with DVDs!)
* DVD containing the sources corresponding to the media
* 1 Live CD for both KDE and GNOME (i386)
162 • 160 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 16:16:38 GMT from United States)
I'm the author of 158.
What you say is true, but for users like me, who don't mess much with those settings, KDE is dreadful.
My concern is the idea that KDE is better for newbies. I've heard so many people use that as a reason for preferring PCL over Ubuntu when recommending a first distro. I've never seen a newbie wanting more than is offered by GNOME.
IMO all Linux desktops are messed up. We need to have a "beginner's mode" with just a few options, a few easily accessible icons, lots of help buttons for those coming from Windows, some pointers to where things are, and easy access to lots of high quality documentation. When they want more, they'll ask. Oh, and we need easy access to forums built into the desktop.
Not that I'm going to do that, but it would really help with bringing people to Linux.
163 • gui interface love (by hab on 2007-09-20 16:17:36 GMT from Canada)
The disscusion/flaming of gui flavours/favorites has been going on since the second gui made its appearance.
Could somebody please enlighten me as to the fundamental difference between classic mac, amiga, geos, gem, os/2, windows, amiwm, fvwm, fvwm95, nextstep, openstep, os/x, gnome, kde, xfce, windowmaker and others that my aging memory fails to bring forth. From where i sit point and click is point and click. They all pretty much work the same way. All roads lead to Rome and so on.
I use kde. That does not mean i'd toss linux if i had to use gnome. It is not my favourite but i would not throw away a Ferrari just because it had an automatic transmission. It would still get down the road pretty quickly.
By way of analogy, i have noticed that in my country people bitch about the cold in the winter and then they bitch about the heat in the summer and they bitch about the rain in spring and fall. Seems people just like to bitch. Go figure!
164 • Just some observations...(DE's & window managers) (by Barnabyh on 2007-09-20 17:23:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
When I first started using Linux in Corellinux 1.0 and Mandrake 7.1/7.2 days I greatly preferred KDE as an interface 'cos it actually let me do things. Gnome was alright but even then for a newbie seemed to lack functionality. I only started to learn about mount points, how-to mount a cdrom etc. in kde.
However Gnome 2 changed all that and for a while was quite nice, but it always feels like work in progress, never complete. These days after two years of Gnome use I have switched back to Kde and Xfce, realising I needed more powerful tweaks and control panels. It's easy to add international language packs to K for localization, just as for OO.org, so all this 'but it does not support my language and is all in American English' is not valid, not even in PCLOS where all that's needed is to fire up Synaptic. The same goes for icons and looks- the biggest reason for me for sticking with Gnome for a while due to the sugar coated blue default look in KDE. All easy to change. These days I appreciate not having to hunt around on xxx-look.org like for some other distros and have it all in the repository.
Openbox and fvwm-crystal are nice too, but only if you don't mind editing the config files or get it all set up for you --> TinyMe.
165 • PCLinux, etc. (by Whois on 2007-09-20 17:49:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
Who cares which distro is top? I don't, and it won't influence my descision on which one to use. What is far more interesting to me as someone who needs a working o/s to do what I want on a computer, is will the distro do what I want without me having to re-program it? The answer to that, from my personal experiences, is yes PClinux will and no Ubuntu won't.
But as most authors are so clever at producing an o/s, why can't any of them produce a wizard that will install extra programs instead of us having to type loads of nonsence into a command line?
166 • Just some observations...(on distros for desktop usage) -and yes, spot on #163 (by Barnabyh on 2007-09-20 17:50:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
(Don't believe anyone would actually read this far and still be interested in all these comments but here it goes:)
Ubuntu was nice in v.5.10 for me personally, I used to run it for 16 months, however after that I felt I was ready for Debian. Main concern here was stability, and 6.06 really had a problem here. A rolling upgrade broke (as was widely known and predicted) the whole OS. Also too many unnecessary updates. So it was and still is Debian Etch time on that machine.
Tried PCLOS2007 just when it came out and to date still have to visit the fora, not one single problem now running on one desktop and a laptop, with everything working incl. 3d effects, wireless, hibernating and all the more mundane stuff nearly out of the box. Granted, I might have a soft spot for it as it reminds me of Mandake 7 and 8 days somehow, but it is a distro done better, and in my view you can see an evolution from Redhat -> Mandriva -> PCLOS. It has the work of thousands preceding it refined primarily for desktop use, and there's nothing wrong with giving people what they want even if they do not contribute significant innovations themselves.
A unified repository and all codecs/flash icluded is in my view their greatest single strength - for the time constrained person with a full time job and family. Yes there are others who provide the same, but there are other issues like responsiveness keeping me from using them (VL 5.8 seems slower too).
It's also a good start if you have several distros installed. It's nice to get one set nearly complete to actually use, while configuring the rest for the next two weeks if you have the time (or the next 6 months if you don't). The last thing you wanna do is configure Fedora, Debian and Slackware for all multimedia, 3d effects and other desktop customizations all on one PC and then do the same all over again on the next.
Btw, also using Zenwalk and Slackware on and off... Good night.
167 • # 162 (by Linux newbie on 2007-09-20 17:52:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
>Not that I'm going to do that,
Why not? Is it too complicated for you?
168 • @165 (by Anon on 2007-09-20 17:55:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
It's called synaptic, or yum, kpackage, adept, and several others.
169 • Package manager of reach distribution (by S. Legner on 2007-09-20 18:53:49 GMT from Austria)
I like this homepage very much to look through Linux-distributions. But there's one data field I miss: which package management system each distro uses. Maybe this feature is available soon - I hope so :-).
170 • 167 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 19:39:36 GMT from United States)
> Why not? Is it too complicated for you?
Absolutely. I write programs, but only for my personal use. I doubt I could put together anything useful - some are talented at one task, others are talented at different tasks. I stand in awe of the Linux distro developers.
171 • @169 (by JeffM on 2007-09-20 19:59:17 GMT from Canada)
If you go into each distro, you'll see a package management section for each release cycle.
172 • Just Because (by Landor on 2007-09-20 20:20:50 GMT from Canada)
I saw a few links and clicked the odd one to see if it had any bearing really on some of the topics.
The link took me to the PCLinuxOS forums. I was enlightened and amused by the treatment of people there. I smiled at some of the hypocrisy I saw. Now of course this is not all people in that forum, and it's (at least in the public eye of the forum) the general hope of the admin and others of stature that people will not bash or dispute with others there, or here in the comments. But it does seep through of course and is usually allowed to continue for whatever length.
Here's a few things I picked out in regard to the "whole experience" as another person here commented on his/her experience with PCLOS:
This is from a former user who actually said something good about PCLOS but said he thought MS and MAC were better as you'll see, his opinion right, and as that is the case, true to him:
"The first distro i tried to run was ubuntu, and i didnt get the iso to burn correctly. I then got a copy of simplyMepis 6.0 from a friend, and it worked perfectly. From there, I went to ubutnu edgy. It worked well, but then i preferred Kde. (now i prefer gnome, and am waiting for a gnome-pclos release) I found pclos .93a big daddy, and liked it a lot. Since then, I have tried dozens of distro's.
On my main workstation, I only run Windows Vista. I feel that windows its the best OS,( and im sure hundreds of millions of people will agree with me)
On my secondary machine, i always have one usable distro and several others that I test out. I dont run PCLinuxOS anymore, but .93a showed me that a linux distro could look ALMOST as clean and polished as windows and mac."
Here's a few of his replies and only one offered anything constructive:
1) *gag *choke *sputter... Shocked Well whatever floats your boat... I'm allergic to bloatware Grin
Personally I think that windows has a lot to do if IT wants to look as clean and polished as Linux. Smiley
I guess whatever OS makes you happy!
2) Generally this is the problem with Windows users. They seem to be most heavily influenced by looks, but not what's under the hood. Windows usually is better looking, but those looks cover a lot of sins.
3) Oh well. Some people are just supperficial. Let it bite em, if the guy thinks windows and mac are better just cause in his opinion they do, well let him be.
We know what really makes a clock tick Tongue
I even ignored his comment common guys.
4) Yeah, go play some Windows games or something.
(here's the constructive one, though lean)
5) PCLOS has gnome. Just search for task-gnome in synaptic, and spread the word around
And I have to wonder if those same people who are here vehemently defending PCLOS, slurring others are the same people who do this in the PCLOS as stated earlier here in the comments section :
"I wonder how many people come to PCLOS, see multiple distro-bashing threads active in these forums, or find a distro-bashing feature article in the official PCLOS Magazine, and decide to simply click away?"
Although I won't go back and look, there was someone here refuting the first claim that the PCLOS forums are not really a good experience. I think he should rethink that. Some could say that I distro bash. I speak from personal experience and opinion, as "most" here all do. I do not blantantly go out of my way to knock down a distro or it's members.
But in light of what I found above, and much more, I would say this is a normal occurance in "my opinion" in those forums, and a sad thing for any linux distribution (and linux in general) that is priding itself on being a main alternative to MS or MAC.
I have always generally believed that anyone individual or group of people who were in some form of competition with a similar group and went out of their to demean them or abuse them, felt threatened by them for what they accomplished. This I believe in my opinion is the case of PCLOS and Ubuntu.
Keep your stick on the ice...
173 • Between Breezy Badger and Dapper Drake (by Anon on 2007-09-20 20:21:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
whatever happened to Colourful Cow, or Cuckolding C+nt?
174 • To expand on Just Because (by Landor on 2007-09-20 20:56:09 GMT from Canada)
One of my main stands has always been about "user friendliness" (and Ladislav, although you did the Mark South thing, I would really enjoy seeing an editorial from you on the level of "user friendliness in Linux for the overall experience) and when I say userfriendliness I'm not talking about codecs, flash, or menu items in a linear sense, which can be the norm for that term in Linux.
User friendliness is about the "whole experience" and as I said, easily forgotten by the masses trying to make a distro to compete with MS.
When we think of new users we're upset a lot of them can't take the time to type something out, or some effort because we freely put the effort in ourselves. We have to remember that these people don't find Linux, Distro Hopping, or plunging into the unknown as exciting, entertaining as most of us do. The people who do find it as exciting will generally have no qualms about making the switch, or attempting it at the least.
We also have to remember that for the most part the average computer user again doesn't have the general level of interest we do as I said. So take into consideration retirees, male and female professionals, Joe online, Jill online, they don't hold our views of "linux" right or wrongs, the software political stance that each of us follow. They "may" come to check what all the hooplah is about and see distro bashing, or bashing on the politics of Linux, in a forum, even here, and think, "ugh", these people are freaks, bashing one another's intelligence, race, diction and such and most likely as the one person in the PCLOS forum said, "click away" and figure that windows is still their best choice because for the most part they don't have to deal with people like this simply because windows does what they want it to do without them having to become immersed in an forum of this nature.
Until we all can either learn to tune this down a bit, or get Linux to a point of functionality that people have very little to no reason to even come to our forums or discussion mediums, unless they want to, it's something we should always keep in mind.
Keep your stick on the ice...
175 • re #172 (by hab on 2007-09-20 21:20:14 GMT from Canada)
Upfront i will state that i really don't care what os/distro/interface/program/hardware anybody uses. This universe is entirely a freewill zone. If it doesn't hurt me/you or anybody else than there is nothing wrong with it.
While it is true that landor is not overtly critical he appears to criticize by allusion and innuendo.
Applying his own metric:
"I have always generally believed that anyone individual or group of people who were in some form of competition with a similar group and went out of their to demean them or abuse them, felt threatened by them for what they accomplished. This I believe in my opinion is the case of PCLOS and Ubuntu."
leads me to conclude there is something threatening in pclinuxos/ubuntu's popularity that disturbs him. Some of the comments he has made strike me as being perilously close to adhominem attacks. Not quite what i would expect from a self professed Phd.
176 • Agree with 175 (by Eduardoz on 2007-09-20 22:09:48 GMT from United States)
Landor appears to be a clever FUDmeister.
The average schmoe could go to the PCLOS forums and have a good experience. I haven't needed to post, as I've found the answers I've needed. But, I haven't seen anything objectionable. But, then, I don't find much objectionable in the examples from #172. The MS MAC guy had stated his opinion; it seems he was saying his goodbyes, rather than seeking opinion. The typical response to this type of swansong _everywhere_ on the 'net is: "don't let the door bang your ass on the way out."
177 • In search of the perfect live CD (by Fractalguy on 2007-09-20 22:40:01 GMT from United States)
Well when I looked closer at NimbleX I thought this is it. I can put my favorite programs on it, selecting from the menu at http://custom.nimblex.net/ and burn MyPerfactDistro. Well, I didn't see all I wanted but it is a start. I selected the nVidia driver for example. But when I tried MyPerfactDistro the resolution came out 1024x768, not 1280x1024. Oh well.
So just what is it I want? The list isn't very long, just ten items. I'm listening to mp3 and ogg music. That is pretty common on live CDs. I surf using Firefox, opera or even links2, also very common. I edit text and code, so vim, cream, geany, kwrite, mc, etc will work. And I edit web pages, so I like KompoZer, quanta, or greany. I prefer KDE, but Xfce4 or Gnome are all right, even fluxbox or IceWM. Then, I need live chat so I can bug the devs for help. :) Finally, a pdf viewer at least as good as current kpdf is nice. So NimbleX comes close, maybe in my top ten, maybe not.
I think sidux is about my #1 lately, since media is not a big issue for me. And when, as was this morning, I had to reboot (hardware problems again) I selected Mint-KDE, my #2, so I could use KompoZer. KompoZer is one of the few apps I want that can't be added live in sidux - not supported.
But then when I boot up Mint, the hard disks aren't displayed for easy mounting. Odd, I thought they were, maybe an earlier release. :/ I have a large vfat partition showing as hda7 here in sidux. Alas, I couldn't get it to mount. (Thought I'd mounted it in Mint before, shrug.)
178 • Foresight (by Todd R. on 2007-09-20 23:11:21 GMT from N/A)
I have to admit, the "rolling release schedule" that is part of the Foresight release notes is very appealing to me.
I'm wondering if there's a list or chart or something that addresses which paticular distributions adhere to that release format.
179 • Some people have a hard time stepping into the light (by Landor on 2007-09-20 23:35:20 GMT from Canada)
It's quite clear by statements like below that at least some of Linux is not ready for the big world. I find it quite enlightening that in the face of comments in that regard all people can do is mount a personal attack. So be it for those. I for one am glad that I and others can see a clearer larger picture and hope one day some of the others will as well.
"Makes me understand that the truly clueless are, unfortunately, everywhere!"
"Landor appears to be a clever FUDmeister."
"don't let the door bang your ass on the way out."
Keep your stick on the ice...
180 • you just don't get it (by Anonymous on 2007-09-20 23:40:42 GMT from N/A)
landor, what can i say......... read and LEARN something about yourself and your effect on forum users from that list you cite.
and you have a degree in psychology?
181 • RE: 177 (by Landor on 2007-09-20 23:44:59 GMT from Canada)
I agree with your conclusions on NimbleX it's not there yet, but it is very close. If you visited his page you have to also remember he is quite limited to time, funds, and resources. I'm sure with such an amazing idea he's working on that he will eventually expand on it. It will be a shame if for some of his difficulties unrelated to his talents that he would have to stop the project.
I think the greatest consideration is the fact that indeed it is a one man show, and just goes to show the kind of innovation one person alone can make in a community as vast as this. The web-build interface and the speed in which NimbleX deploys itself and runs overall is in my personal opinion the best I've seen in innovation so far, though as I am sure many will disagree, as always.
I spoke to a friend about it on the phone last night. They were quite impressed when they went to the page and saw the layout and the general, though as you said, lean choice of software available.
Let's hope that the project grows or others can find some way to adopt this kind of innovation. I personally like the idea of being able to go to a page, click the actual software I would want in a distro and create the iso.
Keep your stick on the ice...
182 • 178 • Foresight (by Todd R.) (by Fractalguy on 2007-09-20 23:45:47 GMT from United States)
"rolling release schedule"
How fast do you want to roll? Check out sidux which is the SID of Debian. It is about as rolling as you can get, with continuous updating available from the Debian SID repositories. Most who use sidux update every week, from what I see on their chat. This update can be done without reboot, but they recommend exiting X and using a simple script at the console.
I'm using the sidux live CD which is released every 3 months. And when I boot, I do an update, so I get a fresh version every few days. But that is just me, with my rapidly decaying system (HD failure, monitor failure, CDR/W failure, etc.)
Anyway, I find sidux is a very nice release, even though it is on the leading edge. The live CD has just about all I need and a HD install can add "forbidden" fruit repositories easily for the rest. The forum and chats are friendly, compared to some. (I just watch a child pretending to be Linus be treaded in a very tolerant manner, considering.) If you chose a rolling release distro, you need to keep it up to date at least monthly.
183 • re#179 (by hab on 2007-09-21 00:13:55 GMT from Canada)
From my post #122
"Makes me understand that the truly clueless are, unfortunately, everywhere!"
From post #133 by Landor
"I agree, but not in regard to 104's post......"
Ah the sweet air of hypocrisy wafts through post #179
Physician, heal thyself.
184 • Sick of it. (by Jason Hammersley on 2007-09-21 00:14:14 GMT from N/A)
Landor, Mr Terminator,
I think it's time the physician heals himself or shuts up entirely.
You are a complete joke, one moment you are irrationally adversarial, the next moment you try to convince us of your rationale and credibility.
Wait! Will your next post be to threaten me with your overwhelming intellect? Or will you just sod off and act like a grown up?
(Take as much time as you need to answer this question, re- write it as you will).
At this juncture, I suspect neither.
I do find you amusing though, that is your saving grace.Your only attribute.
185 • DW is Back!!! Yeah!! (by Robzilla on 2007-09-21 00:20:55 GMT from United States)
first off I am glad DW is back we all missed the site for a few days!! I wondered what had happened!
As for PCLOS I do not see what the fuss is about. Texstar is a good dev but where would he be without Mandriva?? Personally I like Mandriva better but I think both are good. For me PCLOS has been a bit buggy while Mandriva seemed more stable.
Right now I am waiting for Suse 10.3 and enjoying Ubuntu 7.04. I think Ubuntu is a great distro and Debian is awesome in general!!
All linux is great and the fanatics need to get a life. We all have our likes and dis-likes but no Distro is bad. I have my personal favorites and I am glad I have a choice and enjoy trying them all!!
186 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-09-21 01:43:24 GMT from United States)
"PCloss has today no language support, except americanEnglish (which makes their "popularity" funny, as the growth rate of us DW readers is much slower than in other non English speaking countries). SAM can support many European languages (but is not that popular, though she openly clones PClos, sharing her manuals, developpers/packagers : the desktop is not the same (xfce for SAM, KDE [ it seems the only part they did not download from Mandriva] for PClos)."
Go to the front page of PCLinuxOS.com. Look under the INTERNATIONAL tab.
BTW, SAM Linux uses the same repositories that PCLinuxOS uses...whatever is installable on SAM is installable on PCLinuxOS and vice versa.
Please do not speak about things you're not 100% sure of.
187 • openSUSE 10.3 Testers, if you have any issues with new "intel" graphics driver (by For the non-gurus on 2007-09-21 06:01:15 GMT from Australia)
If you had a similar experience to me, such as oversize fonts and unnavigable login greeter or desktop start and windows menus, here is a little solution (if you did not know already, its in the release notes of RC1) for reverting to the old i810 intel driver:
in init 3 console mode, code: 'sax2 -r -m i810' (that will give you back the old tried and tested intel i810 driver, it seems a lot of distros are still having troubles with this new "experimental" "intel" modprobe driver, eg Pardus, Fedora 7, Sidux, and now openSUSE 10.3).
to revert back to "intel" driver, code: 'sax2 -r' (from the release notes)
The more bug reports are submitted for the various hardware, the more it will get fixes and make it better for other or new users.
188 • Restricted Multimedia Formats (MP3, DiVX, etc.) (by Check this out on 2007-09-21 06:19:22 GMT from Australia)
Its a breeeeeze to setup on 10.3!
189 • VectorLinux-5.8 SOHO release an-t (by alexej on 2007-09-21 07:31:05 GMT from Ukraine)
[quote]Posted by vec7 on: Wednesday 12 September @ 00:31:36
Releases It's here, and finally it's Final! The long awaited VL-SOHO 5.8 IS ready for the taking. [/quote]
and so on, so on....
did you rush to download it right away? Cool off, boys, because there had to be the 5.8.6-SOHO release... If you have been tracking of that, you know there was rc1, rc2, and here they are working on at 5.9, and 5.8.6 is stalled, rather cancelled. And the 5.8-SOHO has been laying at servers since May 2007....
190 • RE 186 O soldat inconnu, remettez les choses dans leur contexte (by dbrion on 2007-09-21 09:18:21 GMT from France)
Je voulais signaler à quelqu'un qui se plaignait de l'absence d'internationalisation de PCloss qu'un clone de chez clone , SAM, existait..... ce que vous confirmez .
Maintenant, savoir si une localisation est réussie (par exemple faite à 100% sans "fôte d'orthograffe!" pour les besoins évidents des écoles, ou à 70% pour le confort d'un individu isolé ... c'est une autre histoire )
BTW Avez vous vérifié à 100% que la localisation de PClos est réelle?
191 • Qu 178 Are rolling releases that appealing? (by dbrion on 2007-09-21 09:29:46 GMT from France)
To a bank?
To _your_ bank?
To someone who has real time tasks to get accumplished, and who cannot afford to have unpredictable (IT, CPU and disk) ressource consumption?
To a conservative man (and developpers not always wish to have bugs sometimes added, grandmothers wish the things remain as they are ...)
A.Williamson, in last week DW, explained very clearly that any distr could be made "rolling releasing", but that would make very few people happy....
192 • @ 171 (by S. Legner on 2007-09-21 10:30:05 GMT from Austria)
Thank you for the information, I didn't figure that out before.
193 • SuSE 10.3 RC1 (by Dave on 2007-09-21 13:33:20 GMT from United States)
Just thought I'd comment on SuSE10.3 RC1.
I used SuSE many years ago and always like the professional look but had previousely hated YAST. I was pleasantly surprized with 10.3 Yast is now much more responsive and I feel this is now one of the best all round linux desktop experiences around.
I know there are alot of bad feelings with Novell , but I must say that this release looks very very good.
give it a try.. and don't through the baby out with the bath water :)
194 • DW rankings (by Tim on 2007-09-21 14:06:17 GMT from Canada)
I've read a lot of comments on how PCLinuxOS doesn't deserve to be in top spot, but I for one don't believe for a second that anyone (or no more so that fans of other distro's) has tipped the scales on hits per day just to see their favorite work it's way up to number one.
Being someone who has tried all the top disto's and many of the less popular as well, I can attest that PCLinuxOS deserves all the accolades it recieves and probably more. This is one operating system that just plain works, and I do mean very well right from the time it's installed without a lot of messing around with things.
I've tried all the Buntu's, and though they obviously work well for some, they didn't seem as fast nor as stable, nor as easy for me as PCLinuxOS. I tried Sam Linux but it didn't seem as good, .. can put my finger on it but there was something about it even other than that tool bar at the top of the screen that wouldn't autohide so my browser window would go right to the top that bugged me. Then there is Granular Linux which is also a spin off of PCLinuxOS and is still on one of my other PC's and works amazingly well, but other than the different graphics on start-up I could see very little difference between it and the PCLinuxOS it's based on. I put it on to try it and since it just worked too, I left it there.
So what I'm trying to say is from my perspective PCLinuxOS really IS as good as what the "fan boys" say, ... but the argument could go on for ever.
It's (all this arguing over which distro is best) is like getting a bunch of guys together where some like Chevy's and others Fords, or Chryslers. We'll argue till we're blue in the face that what we like is best, but in reality none are perfect for everyone. In fact none are perfect, but there are some that are perfect for certain individuals and that is what they should use.
195 • Qu 164 : Did you validate Kde language support in all languages? (by dbrion on 2007-09-21 14:07:36 GMT from France)
"It's easy to add international language packs to K for localization, just as for OO.org, so all this 'but it does not support my language and is all in American English' is not valid, not even in PCLOS where all that's needed is to fire up Synaptic"
Ah yes, there is a clicli button and therefore you will get perfect (or at least, as decent as Microsoft ones) in _any_ language....
I only found decent French translations in Kaella (-at least the apps my nephew uses- ) which is partially meant for, and is distributed in many French schools....
I agree the bones exist... but the part which one can eat???
Freely copied from 186
Please do not speak about things you're not 100% sure of.
For internationalization matters, it is not the presence of the button in a desktop, but the presence _and quality_ of a translation. Unless you know every language......
196 • rolling releases (by Todd R. on 2007-09-21 14:11:15 GMT from N/A)
Thank you Fractalguy for the info about the "sid" of Debian.
I'm using searchers and reviews of various distributions and find that I am attracted most to "Arch Linux," which is currently at #18 on this site's page hit ranking and, most importantly for me, is being used by a friend of mine who raves about it. He especially likes the "pacman" package manager system.
I noticed that rolling realeases has its detractors, but I like the idea of fewer reinstalls. I was first bothered by that when I had a great running PCLinuxOS "Big Daddy" on my older machine. The new "2007" version was not compatible and the repositories all changed and boom, had to start over (saving important files of course).
But I had bonded, so to speak, with the version that I had to give up, so I began to look around for distributions that minimize that angst. :)
Thank you for responding to my question about that, Fractalguy.
197 • rolling releases (by Anonymous on 2007-09-21 14:58:38 GMT from France)
I'm a happy user of Arch and I'm not even a skilled linux user!
If for any reasons you're not content with Arch, you might give Frugalware a try. It uses the pacman package manager, and I think that they have a "stable" rep updated every 6 months alongside a "current" rep.
198 • @dbrion: PCLOS in French (by Anonymous on 2007-09-21 15:00:16 GMT from France)
I remember reading (somewhere in their forums or at http://www.mypclinuxos.com/ ) that the French users were working on a fully localized DVD edition. I don't know where they're at now.
199 • @158,162 from 160 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-21 15:09:27 GMT from France)
I agree that for the real newbie, not only new to linux but uncomfortable with computers in general, and for the Windows office and home user who never customized anything, Gnome is a better choice.
For someone new to linux but who's been playing with his Windows a bit, I find it debatable, I think it comes down to personnal preferences, to one's mindset. In my case, my first exposure to "linux" desktops was with PCLOS's KDE and Debian's Gnome Despite the shortcomings you underlined, I pretty much instantly liked KDE better than Gnome. I don't know if it's because it looked more like XP or because it was more configurable.
So I'd say that "I've never seen a newbie wanting more than is offered by GNOME" is true or not depending on what one means by "newbie".
200 • update/upgrade blues (by hab on 2007-09-21 17:01:20 GMT from Canada)
In my experience the concept that the majority of neophyte/naive computer users have the most problem wrapping their heads around is that of the heirarchical filesystem.
Dos, windows, os/2 and even my beloved amiga have a / (root) directory on each harddrive or harddrive partition. Unix/linux (and others), instead have a single / directory at the top of the filesystem. In a multiple partition/harddrive system all partitions/harddrives are mounted into the filesystem below root as per each particular system or user requirement. When i first came to unix/linux this concept was revealatory. I'd experienced the thrill of running out of storage on a harddrive with dos and amiga and the consequent shuffling and copying/deleting and general PITA of those situations. The unix way of doing things immediatly made perfect sense. Got a full filesystem? Add a new drive or partition, copy the files from the full one to the new one, mount it into the filesystem in place of the old one and you are good to go.
When i started with linux, books and documentation were fairly thin on the ground so i started reading unix documentation. Some of the concepts i absorbed have stayed with me to this day and have served me well. Especially the concept of three major subdivisions in the filesystem. That is:
The unix convention was/is that upon installation the distribution installed to / and /usr.
Any software beyond that was installed to /usr/local keeping the distribution unpolluted with potentially "alien" files. If /usr/local is on a seperate partition/drive a reinstall of the distro would not affect them.
By the same token having /home on a seperate partition/drive will leave it untouched on a reinstall. Yes if you upgrade or change distros conflicts can arise from old config files but at worst you filter through your home directory and keep what you want or need.
Experience is the best teacher here. I have files in my /home directory that go back a half dozen years or more.
As the user becomes more familiar with filesystems and partition schemes the real flexibility of the unix way of doing things becomes apparent.
For more information google "linux filesystem standard".
201 • Linux forums (by Linux newbie on 2007-09-21 19:59:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
Although I'm a newbie in Linux, I have used computers for many years starting with a Vic 20 and then a Sinclair Spectrum+ which led to the 286's and 386's, etc.
I've used BASIC, DOS and every windows from 3.0 to XP (even trialed the Vista RC1 last year - horrible!). So I'm used to computers.
I've tried about 25 distros this year, but keep getting put off by the nastiness of some of the distros users.
What is most distressing though on the Linux user forums for a newbie, is the sheer antagonism which comes across from the more experienced users of that particular distro. In my experience, most of these types are USA based, though I fail to understand why that should be, they're humans like me, aren't they? It would make the whole distro experience much more enjoyable if the sarcastic ones would keep away from the newbie's forum completely. They are ruining Linux almost as much as the idiots who ruined CB radio by playing their music at full blast over the talking channels!
202 • re#201 (by hab on 2007-09-21 20:37:24 GMT from Canada)
Your experience is unfortunately, not unique.
I had the (mis?)fortune of learning linux before i had a net connection so i had to be fairly self reliant. I read howtos, man pages, bought linux journal magazines, some books and used my local library.
I would like to state that i have experienced the same type of thing in other oses fora as well. Amiga users were notorious for this.
If you think linux users are bad seek out some of the "windows power user" (now that has to be an oxymoron) fora and check out the level of flammage.
I can only suggest that you don a metaphorical asbestos suit and perservere.
For myself, i can say that the only things that bother me are the things i choose to LET bother me.
Don't get discouraged, in the end i found that many linux geeks tend to be almost obsessively helpfull.
203 • RE: 201 (by Landor on 2007-09-21 22:10:25 GMT from Canada)
I agree, and as I stated earlier, this is one of the larger issues for people coming over to linux. Consider someone without your knowledge how fast they'd just drop linux and go back to windows.
I don't think comparing one distro to another as to another reply here is any basis for anyone to think. A lot of people here say that Linuxen users are friendly, but many talk about how unfriendly a lot truly are and you often see the same old addage, well either stay with windows, or the windows guys are worse. Not very helpful at all.
What I would do in your case is if you are feeling mistreated, especially in a newbie forum is to speak to the moderators for that forum, and if it's the case it is them, then speak to the admin. Donning on an asbestos suit to shield you from the problem of flaming is not the answer, having it dealt with so in the future you and others don't have to deal with it is.
The sad part about the world today is that it has become desensitized to many things, and on the largest scale is behaviour online. The whole "well that's just what it is like, deal with it or leave" attitude that the majority seems to take, which of course allows this behaviour to fester in deeper.
But anyway, welcome to Linux and I hope any of the answers you needed were given to you, and my e-mail is always available, I may not be able to help, but I am willing to, or help direct you to the answers you need.
Keep your stick on the ice...
204 • Geubuntu (by Jackie C. Smith II on 2007-09-21 22:38:26 GMT from United States)
Say, I feel Geubuntu is GREAT. It features the Enlightenment desktop combined with the Gnome desktop. E is beautiful, but has always lacked a system tray. Not Any More!!!! Check out Geubuntu. It's not bad at all!!
Geubuntu home page: http://www.geubuntu.intilinux.com/Home.html
Gotta Love it!!
205 • Re: 113 (by distro_who on 2007-09-21 23:45:33 GMT from Puerto Rico)
still not choice? what about merging? .. http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu
206 • Re: Did you validate Kde language support in all languages? (by Barnabyh on 2007-09-21 23:56:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
#Ah yes, there is a clicli button and therefore you will get perfect (or at least, as decent as Microsoft ones) in _any_ language....#
You are of course free to use the CLI if you don't like to click on buttons, but I thought the aim was to make it easier for new users in particular? There are still some nice distros around that do not use a graphical installer and package manager at all, if that makes you happier.
#I only found decent French translations in Kaella (-at least the apps my nephew uses- ) which is partially meant for, and is distributed in many French schools....
I agree the bones exist... but the part which one can eat???#
Sorry? Well, I never claimed French or for that matter EVERY single language in the world is supported with perfect consistency throughout all of KDE, but it surely is not only American English either, for example British English works well and of course German, hardly surprising.
#For internationalization matters, it is not the presence of the button in a desktop, but the presence _and quality_ of a translation. Unless you know every language......#
I would not vouch for KDE supporting Nepali either and am not going to research it for you. Fact is plenty of languages are supported. Good enough for a lot of people, although not for everybody.
What is so bad about the French language module? Perhaps you could help translate it.
(Just realised there isn't even a French KDE portal behind that link, must be something about people there being picky.)
However as I'm not a KDE 'fan boy' I'll stop here. Use whatever you want to, different solutions exist for everything.
207 • # 195 Re: Did you validate Kde language support in all languages? (by Barnabyh on 2007-09-22 00:09:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
That is funny, Kaella seems to use KDE as well. You do know that language modules are not distro specific but supplied by the vendor? Unless Kaella use their own pack you will get the same experience in any other distro upon installation and x-server restart .
208 • DDOS attack on Distrowatch (by ROB on 2007-09-22 07:51:11 GMT from N/A)
It would not surprise me if the attack was launched by some Microsoft script-kiddy. I think M$ is more determined to bury Linux than ever before, and of course, our civil rights and freedoms along with it. Microsoft is killing off business and innovation everywhere. Bill Gates was the one that called us criminals and communists, and he has the ear of all these idiots at the globalisation conferences. They use tear-gas [or worse] at these conferences now, and they wonder why ordinary folks are suspicious and cynical about the whole thing.
If people don't wake up soon, their will be no business but a half a dozen transnationals, no government except as a "rubber stamp" for what's happening in board rooms, and everyone will be working for 2 cents a day.
209 • RE 207 (and other) (by dbrion on 2007-09-22 08:49:52 GMT from France)
That is funny, Kaella seems to use KDE as well. You do know that language modules are not distro specific but supplied by the vendor? Unless Kaella use their own pack you will get the same experience in any other distro upon installation and x-server restart .
"get the same experience ......upon installation " Are you joking?
First, no one installs Kaella, an excellent live CD (now DVD) with
fery low DW rankings (even in France.......) which is obviously built with support of many teachers...
Last year,I compared Kaella and edUBUlinux: for gcompris [ my nephew 's fav app], Kaella was in full , well spelled French (as the original is); edUBUlinux gcompris was a linguistic "ortograffic" disaster....
That shows the difference between the "I download, I claim I am good, I put on a web server and my fans will applaude 'my' great work" policy and a verification based work.....
FYI I recall that I was answering to someone complaining about PCLoss bad internationalization and that I wrote that it would be done -if it is done now, where is the harm?-[by "done" I mean of course: copied and verified with serious criteria, not PR or presence IT links ones-]
FYI I never translated anything from French to English (thanx Heaven !!!] nor the reverse way (my favorite apps are so specialized I cannot find the equivalent in French, as I tought myself with English books/IT links). But I verify (my colleague's / friend's ) texts -in both languages, as well as more official papers in some very uninteresting matters..
210 • Has anyone tried Linux XP? (by Linux newbie on 2007-09-22 11:41:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
This looks interesting, have down loaded it 'cos it's in English and looks nice. Anyone here tried it?
211 • food for thought (by hab on 2007-09-22 19:15:17 GMT from Canada)
212 • Page hits -- something unusual (by winsnomore on 2007-09-22 19:51:47 GMT from United States)
Ladislav .. there is something going on here
on Wednesday almost every distro was down in 7 days average except PCLinuxOS and a few new additions.
Today i see EVERY distro up in 7 day average .
has to be by scripts.. it's statistically impossible otherwise
213 • 201 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-22 20:11:35 GMT from United States)
Can only speak for the Ubuntu newbie forum, they have an explicit rule against RTFM and other dumb answers. If you tried there and got a rude answer, contact the moderator because whoever is responding that way is violating the terms of service.
debcentral.org is not so popular, but I've never seen an inappropriate answer there, either, and they answer questions about anything Debian-based.
214 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-09-22 20:20:35 GMT from United States)
Anybody else tried Fedora 8?
The default look is unprofessional, ugly, even childish. It's an atrocity for a distro that has generally been professional in previous releases.
Guess they thought they were too popular. No way I'd show it to a Windows user, that's for sure.
215 • @212 Re: hpd stats (by DrDOS on 2007-09-22 21:23:07 GMT from United States)
It went down because the site was off line for two days, now it's just going back up to the true weekly average.
216 • RE: Linux XP (by IMQ on 2007-09-22 21:28:41 GMT from United States)
As the name suggested, the desktop is a XP look-a-like. Remind me of aLinux.
I tried it once a while back. Not my cup of tea.
And if I recall correctly, the installation was very bare. Not many application from the default install.
Also, it has be activated or something after so many days. The cost was $99 or something like.
I don't know if anything change since.
The turn-off for me was the activation. Remind of the stupid PITA Windows XP. You can say they try to be XP look-a-like to a T. XandrOS tried that activation in the 4.0 release and it didn't gain any fans. I believe they have since dropped the activation nonsense.
217 • @212 (by Adam Williamson on 2007-09-22 22:49:12 GMT from Canada)
Why does everyone love to jump to the worst possible conclusion?
It's got nothing to do with scripts. It's simply the result of the DDOS attack on the site.
During the days the site was down under the DDOS, obviously nobody got any hits, so everyone's HPD went down. And now the site's back up again, everyone's getting more hits than they did over those few days (because it's rather hard not to beat 0), so everyone's HPD is going up again. simple.
218 • Is DW becoming a spam site? (by Fractalguy on 2007-09-22 23:00:09 GMT from United States)
With posts just above (208-212) and including 217 "food for thought", I'm beginning to think so. Forget about sticks on ice, we need keep on topic please. And if you think "food for thought" is enough of a link hint, think again. Please put the title and author in the post to make it stick, like this: "Linux and its identity crisis by Don Reisinger" That way I and others who do keep up on the news by reading lxer, slashdot etc. will know they don't have to *hit that site* yet again! IMHO, Don Reisinger is just trying to stir the FUD with old news.
Anyway, thanks and thank you Ladislav Bodnar for Distrowatch.
Now, my download of Machboot finally finished the other day and it turned out to be one of the fasted crashing distros yet! Only 10 seconds of streaming text to come to a complete pounding halt. Another coaster. (shrug)
So far the fastest booting that I've seen is the KNOPPIX remake from Japan. Accelerated-KNOPPIX Ver.1.1 http://www.alpha.co.jp/biz/rdg/ac-knoppix/index_en.html
That leaves BugnuX2007 (featuring testing tools), also tested this last week here on my aging Linux only box . My notes include this "no Internet, screen too 'short'". Now that means it did not connect to the Net and the bottom panel covered up key areas of the window at 1024x768. Unlike KDE where you can grab any corner or even Alt-right click to move/resize, with this version of Enlightenment 0.17 I have to grab the bottom part of a window which was behind the panel. Well, so I could not get at or see the bottom panel areas of Firefox (it launched as a too tall window). In fact quite a bit was obscured. And while they are testing things, they might look at their own web site, http://www.bugnux.org./, with a 1024x768 monitor. It is too wide to fit on the screen!
So sorry guys, nice try. I would have liked to add another to my list of good lean distros. But this just makes another coaster. :/
219 • PCLOS Trolls (by Duhnonymous on 2007-09-23 00:03:38 GMT from United States)
It seems like many PCLOS users subscribe to policy of shouting down people they disagree with. The articles on their official blogs never miss a chance to put down other distros as "slow" or "too reliant on console" or some other lame excuse.
It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the DDoS attack was from a PCLOS user who resents that fact that you report on anything other than PCLOS.
220 • PCLinuxOS | Ubuntu (by otoh on 2007-09-23 00:41:11 GMT from United States)
Disclaimer: I'm using PCLOS to post this and am not really fond of Ubuntu.
(I use a different Linux distro on two other computers.)
No question, the version of PCLOS I'm using was the best at supporting peripherals and having the included software configured "out-of-the-box " of any Linux distro I've ever used. I haven't tried 2007 but if it's essentially the same (or better), I would recommend it for Linux newbies ... or anyone who wants to install a "just works" desktop distribution.
Now comes the "but" part. The past year of so I have found myself increasingly going to the Ubuntu websits(s) for trouble-shooting info, opinions of software, etc. Today, for example, I was looking into two CSS editors and found an abundance of mentions in the Ubuntu forums ... but only one thread about only one of the editors in the PCLOS forums.
My impression is that a significant number of Ubuntu users are using the distribution as a base for specialized tasks, rather than primarily as a "desktop". And at least for those users, Ubuntu vs PCLOS is like comparing apples and oranges. A more apt comparison would be Ubuntu vs Fedora. Traditionally, Fedora (and Red Hat retail box before that) has been the distro for specialized tasks.
That said, I hope Tex sticks to (my understanding of) his original vision for PCLOS. Imo, the main potential risk for the distribution would be trying to spread resources too thin. Ignore (politely) the supporters who are fixated on "catching" Ubuntu.
221 • @201 202 203 (by glyj on 2007-09-23 03:04:47 GMT from New Caledonia)
I think things are getting better nowadays. In Ubuntu or Mandriva forums for example, you get very few answers like RTFM. The new linux users are welcome and many forumers are glad to give help.
222 • re: 219 (by beany on 2007-09-23 06:27:03 GMT from United States)
Hi I use PCLINUXOS...I'm not a troll. I'm not a jerk. I never personally bash distros....even ones I have paid retail price for. I appreciate all flavors. I moved to PCLOS after a long history of Kanotix. I do not hate any distro I just have chosen one that has worked best on all the laptops and desktops that I need it to work on. No it's not perfect. What OS is? Not OSX not Xp not Vista and definitely not yours. But I have made choice and I don't need to bash any other's choice to make myself feel better. There are a lot of jerks using many different distros......including PCLOS. But I have to believe that there are also some really great people using them also....gosh I imagine there may be nice people who use Windows too. I use, appreciate, and love my Linux distro, whatever it is at the moment.
223 • RE 219 : Pour vivre heureux, vivons cachés. (by dbrion on 2007-09-23 13:13:24 GMT from France)
"It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the DDoS attack was from a PCLOS user who resents that fact that you report on anything other than PCLOS.
What is the interest of being popular with an under-dimensioned download server?
Why would PCloss users conspirate in order to have more pple downloading their favorite GNUlinux, thus creating traffic-jams?
That would be irrational...
Of course, I cannot figure out such a thing in the blessed GNUlinux world...
224 • DDoS (by /. on 2007-09-23 14:45:17 GMT from United States)
I will tell you what,I have said it on Linux Today and I will say it on here.In my opinion I believe very strongly that M$ is behind a lot of the attacks on the Linux websites.Gentoo,PCLinuxOS,Ubuntu and now this site.Just shows what a threat LInux is..I love this site and visit it every day.Keep up the awesome job!
225 • Distro bickering (by Tony on 2007-09-23 16:14:05 GMT from United States)
To me the main pro for "any" Linux Distro (insert your favorite one here) is the fact that it is the freedom of choice. It's been the norm for the public at large to only have a couple of choices when buying a new computer - MS or MAC. Who would've thought that just a couple of years ago that we all can configure our own computers with a free operating system and have the ability to do what we want.
I think the main boost to Linux has been Microsoft. I'm not going to bash MS, but Vista has opened the eyes of people who less than a year ago never heard of Linux.
What's the strongest aspect of Linux? In my opinion - the Live CD. The Live version allows people to test drive Linux for free and what better way to get people to switch to Linux than give them something that works and is free to them?
226 • distro bashing (by hab on 2007-09-23 16:39:02 GMT from Canada)
I think that a lot of the hype and angst around distro bashing is a tad overblown.
I liken it more to a family squabble. eg. you are my brother/sister/father/mother/etc. and i hate you.
Human beings are by nature competetive animals. Holy wars are not just about religion. Car people have been at it since the second marque rolled off the production line. Other similar examples abound.
It will interesting to see if there is a circling of the wagons if a concerted attack is mounted on free/libre software. We may yet get a chance to witness this as the adoption curve starts to become steeper and free/libre software becomes more threatening to existing business models.
227 • Unknown (by robert on 2007-09-23 17:44:24 GMT from Slovakia)
hi. nice blog . thanks.
228 • re post 222 by beany (by Cecil on 2007-09-23 18:51:34 GMT from N/A)
I, too, am not a troll or a jerk. Plus I don't keep my stick on the ice and therefore I am cliche free!
229 • @222 and 228 (by Anonymous on 2007-09-23 18:53:40 GMT from N/A)
Uh-oh, beany and cecil are both here. Didn't they have a nasy falling out years ago?
They're not going to fight, are they?
230 • RE: Following the herd... (by Landor on 2007-09-23 20:17:43 GMT from Canada)
I find it amusing but also sad at the same time that so many feel threatened by my factual, or personal, opinions that they can only state or remark on my personal being or how I always close my comments on a decent note for all, showing how non-confrontational my posts are meant to be.
That said and, on that note...
Keep your stick on the ice...
231 • It's a joke (by Anonymous on 2007-09-23 21:17:17 GMT from N/A)
Jokes make you sad?
It's light hearted fun at a serious place now and then. I believe in that, very much.
And I've been vilified and deleted and barred from forums for doing it, too.
That's what's sad.
232 • re: beany and cecil (by beany on 2007-09-23 21:38:37 GMT from United States)
"Beany and Cecil"... that's hilarious!!!! Most people here will have to Google that one. he he
I do really love this site
233 • herding the followers (by hab on 2007-09-23 21:49:19 GMT from Canada)
If anything that i have posted here has been misconstrued as a personal attack then i profer my unqualified apology. I can assure you that is entirely not my intent.
I, as you, attach my email address to every post and anybody disagreeing with or desireing elaboration or clarification is free to email me.
I will however reserve the right to point out what i percieve to be logical fallacy or hypocrisy. To do less would be disingenous at best.
I would like to point out as one pilot said, you don't take any flak 'till you're over the target. An adage i fully understand cuts both ways.
234 • Un-Plugged Rant: GNU/Linux & Wireless (by Fractalguy on 2007-09-23 22:23:13 GMT from United States)
Un-Plugged Rant: GNU/Linux & Wireless - Don Parris
"Look, all I'm saying is, I can just picture a suit, or just some regular Joe, trying out GNU/Linux, and running into this issue [wireless connectivity]. I honestly don't think there is much excuse for not having something working properly and out of the box when you have the blooming drivers. Will someone please help me find a clue? And, no I really don't want to hear about how to compile the drivers from source. I want to know why something that should "just work" doesn't."
OK, this author is not a newbie, he was the editor-in-chief of lxer.com for Pete's sake. But he is hitting on the head an issue that I do not look forward to. (Someday I'd like to have a lap top.) Early in October I'm going to be "selling" a guy on Linux for his laptop. I don't know what he has right now, but I did give him a Ubuntu (nice pretty package and all) but he has not tried it yet. When I see him to "make a real go at this" next month, I will likely have to have a stack of distros on hand and hope one works.
Maybe a good article here could cover wireless, what works and what doesn't and why. I'd even settle for a link to a comprehensive site that is not out of date. Well, maybe not. I could say the same thing about graphics drivers, sound cards, mounting devices, disk controllers, cameras, codecs, power control, sleep, etc. It is crazy out there.
Anyways, I'm disheartened to see an ex-editor of a Linux news site getting stumped like a total newb. My old desktop sort of works with the Debian family and a few others. But I feel like a mountain hiker hiding from a storm in a shelter worrying "If I open the door here, I'll certainly be blown away." Oh well. I have my CD stack. It is tall, it is slick looking, it is ready... but I think it might get ugly before the deal is closed. I hate that "I think I'll stay with this legacy OS here. No thanks."
235 • driver issues (by hab on 2007-09-24 00:00:44 GMT from Canada)
The problem can be pretty much be laid squarely at the feet of the manufacturers.
Undocumented apis, no specifications released and specifically in wireless network cards they appear to change chipsets more frequently than people change their underwear.
Unless and until this changes it will be an uphill fight. If enough free/libre software users mail manufacturers than it might not be so easy to ignore us.
This is not a gnu/linux problem, all of the free oses sufer the same problem.
236 • beany and cecil (by Cecil on 2007-09-24 00:12:14 GMT from N/A)
Your username jumped out at me, being as how I'm old enough to remember watching Beanie and Cedil puppet and cartoons.
Heck, I even remember Bob Clampett's "Thunderbold the Wonder Colt." :O)
237 • Textar won't talk to DW !!! (by Bravo on 2007-09-24 06:53:42 GMT from Philippines)
Quote Ladislav: "I wanted to use the occasion and publish an interview with Texstar, the founder and lead developer of PCLinuxOS, but disappointingly, he declined to talk to us."
I would say, BRAVO!!! Textar really has a lot of sense in him, not talking to the TABLOID of Linux.
And BTW, could you not use DIGG technology to make some sense of the ramblings here?
238 • Texstar (by Geoff on 2007-09-24 11:11:54 GMT from N/A)
Well, maybe he's just not ready yet. He does have a history of taking as much time as necessary (past the projected release date) to hone as near a perfect product as possible.
I'm serious. ..er,
239 • RE 237 DW => DWW (by dbrion on 2007-09-24 12:19:20 GMT from France)
DW is an abbreviation for DistroWatch, meseems : it is a very good link to new linuxen/BSDs, plus some realistic info on the state of interesting packages : it is very difficult to gather and verify such information, in an attractive way.
DWW (Distrowatch weekly) is an opinion column, and one is free to disagree, meseems : Perhaps I would have preferred reading and interview of the leader of a distribution coming from the last ranking to one ranking above the last (or 2 interviews if he gained two rankings!)...: as very unpopular distrs may be very original, that might have been very new/funny/innovating...
Number of Comments: 239
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