 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 217, 27 August 2007 |
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Welcome to this year's 35th issue of DistroWatch Weekly! There is little doubt about it - Ubuntu is the most popular desktop Linux distribution on the market. But the great variety of available statistics, usage surveys and web long analyses means that it's often impossible to estimate the true usage figures and switching habits of individual users. Does it all really matter? Read our editorial on the subject and comment in the forums. In the news section, we link to a handful of interesting articles covering the openSUSE package management, Gentoo overlays, and Debian boot process with initng. Finally, the KDE development team has revealed that its official KDE 4 release party will only take place some four months after the release of version 4.0. The reason? Read on to find out.
Content:
 Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in ogg (6.1MB) and mp3 (5.6MB) formats (many thanks to Jim Putman)
 Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
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| Editorial |
How popular is a distribution
No matter how futile the matter is, many of us seem obsessed with the idea of determining the popularity and market share of Linux distributions. Whether its through public polls on popular web sites, download trackers, web server log analyses, or Netcraft-style OS detection of web servers, the results continue to baffle the Linux-using population. The reason? They all give different results.
Last week's conclusion of Desktop Linux Survey 2007 was another attempt at collecting information about the usage of desktop Linux distributions and major software applications. The results were not particularly surprising - Ubuntu walked away with over 30% share of the votes, ahead of openSUSE (nearly 20%) and Debian GNU/Linux (just under 12%). All three are highly popular distributions with a broad mindshare, even among less technical computer users who don't follow the Linux distro market very closely.
But some of the DistroWatch readers might have been surprised by the poor performance of the three distributions that are fairly new and relatively small in terms of mindshare, but have been hot on the DistroWatch's Page Hit Ranking (PHR) statistics: PCLinuxOS, Sabayon Linux and Linux Mint. Here is what Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols had to say on the subject while analysing the results:
"Perhaps the most surprising result of our survey was that PCLinuxOS showed so poorly. On DistroWatch, PCLinuxOS has been at the top of the site's page hit ranking for the last 30 days. Frankly, we're not sure why this popular, easy-to-use community distribution didn't do better. The site supporting it had recently had problems, but that problem's long been history. Perhaps, it's simply that unlike the other popular community distributions -- Ubuntu, openSUSE, and Fedora -- PCLinuxOS doesn't have corporate backing. Canonical, Novell, and Red Hat all provide support and hardware partnerships for their community distributions that PCLinuxOS can't match."
Granted, the DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking doesn't mean all that much and we have been saying this for years. However, our web log analysis of DistroWatch.com visitors' user agent strings indicates that PCLinuxOS represents 6.2% of all Linux-using visitors, which makes its the third most popular Linux distribution (after Ubuntu and Debian). openSUSE, which received nearly 20% of votes in the DesktopLinux survey, is used by less than 5% of those DistroWatch visitors who visit these pages with Linux.
To make these figures more digestable, here is a tabular comparison of the three indicators mentioned above: the DesktopLinux survey, DistroWatch web log analysis and DistroWatch PHR. Bear in mind that some distributions, notably Slackware and Gentoo, do not provide custom browser strings, which makes it impossible for the web server to account for them. In case of the DistroWatch PHR, the percentage figures were calculated using the top 100 distributions only and the Ubuntu figure also includes those of Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, etc, since the DesktopLinux survey also grouped them together. The last column represents the average of these three (or two, in case of missing browser string identifiers) indicators.
No matter which indicator we take for the most representative, one thing is clear - Ubuntu is the top desktop Linux distribution at the moment. Beyond that assertion, it's anybody's guess; openSUSE and Debian seem also highly popular, but Fedora does not do particularly well in any of the statistics or surveys. Some newer and smaller distributions, such as PCLinuxOS, Linux Mint and Sabayon Linux are rising in terms of popularity, but as the DesktopLinux survey indicates, none of them has reached sufficient mindshare to penetrate into the wider market. The enterprise class products, such as CentOS, Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SUSE Linux Enterprise are probably not used much on the desktop or their users care little for either DistroWatch or Linux market surveys.
At the end of the day, we still know little about the popularity of distributions. That said, these figures aren't completely useless - they produce an endless string of entertaining discussions on various forums and deliver evidence that most of us care about these issues, even if we'll never find the correct answers.
But there is one set of figures that is perhaps more important than any of the distro market share surveys. When I started DistroWatch in 2001, 95% of the visitors used Windows and Internet Explorer to access the site. Some six years later, only 19% of you read this site with Internet Explorer. As for operating system statistics, the usage of Linux to access the site has risen from a near-zero to a whopping 36% today! While various market share surveys are entertaining and sometimes even useful (for companies like Dell in order to determine what to put on their computers), there is no denying that the usage of Linux has risen rather dramatically over the last few years. And that's all that matters.
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| Statistics |
DistroWatch in Europe
The final stop on our statistical journey of DistroWatch readership takes us to Europe (after publishing similar sets of data for Africa, Asia, the Americas and the South Pacific). The purpose of these statistical analyses was to show the year-on-year change in the number of DistroWatch visitors from different countries and territories.
Like all other continents, Europe also experienced strong growth in terms of DistroWatch visits during the past year, with the overall increase of 25%. Interestingly, the only country where the number of visitors dropped from a year ago (ignoring the tiny Andorra) is Finland, the birthplace of Linux! Luckily, this was generously compensated for by visits from all other countries, with Switzerland, Russia, Ukraine, Greece and Ireland in particular recording very strong growth. (The figures are courtesy of the GeoLite Country IP-to-country database from Maxmind which claims an accuracy of 98%.)
| Rank |
Country/Territory |
2006 |
2007 |
% Change |
| 1 |
Germany (DE) |
981,339 |
1,238,727 |
+26.2% |
| 2 |
Italy (IT) |
732,517 |
912,876 |
+24.6% |
| 3 |
United Kingdom (GB) |
722,519 |
891,039 |
+23.3% |
| 4 |
France (FR) |
638,583 |
720,702 |
+12.9% |
| 5 |
Poland (PL) |
359,428 |
518,088 |
+44.1% |
| 6 |
Spain (ES) |
353,994 |
429,769 |
+21.4% |
| 7 |
Netherlands (NL) |
357,566 |
420,609 |
+17.6% |
| 8 |
Sweden (SE) |
271,589 |
310,838 |
+14.5% |
| 9 |
Finland (FI) |
231,817 |
215,551 |
-7.0% |
| 10 |
Romania (RO) |
158,888 |
212,941 |
+34.0% |
| 11 |
Switzerland (CH) |
118,325 |
199,998 |
+69.0% |
| 12 |
Belgium (BE) |
179,174 |
195,456 |
+9.1% |
| 13 |
Portugal (PT) |
127,878 |
184,753 |
+44.5% |
| 14 |
Hungary (HU) |
135,017 |
160,099 |
+18.6% |
| 15 |
Norway (NO) |
120,686 |
158,505 |
+31.3% |
| 16 |
Russia (RU) |
87,469 |
144,113 |
+64.8% |
| 17 |
Greece (GR) |
80,304 |
134,045 |
+66.9% |
| 18 |
Denmark (DK) |
113,974 |
132,253 |
+16.0% |
| 19 |
Austria (AT) |
93,427 |
123,491 |
+32.2% |
| 20 |
Czech Republic (CZ) |
78,684 |
115,986 |
+47.4% |
| 21 |
Bulgaria (BG) |
90,392 |
113,901 |
+26.0% |
| 22 |
Slovakia (SK) |
64,292 |
76,937 |
+19.7% |
| 23 |
Estonia (EE) |
67,472 |
72,145 |
+6.9% |
| 24 |
Slovenia (SI) |
42,059 |
52,179 |
+24.1% |
| 25 |
Ukraine (UA) |
21,480 |
39,999 |
+86.2% |
| 26 |
Croatia (HR) |
30,752 |
39,709 |
+29.1% |
| 27 |
Ireland (IE) |
25,533 |
39,656 |
+55.3% |
| 28 |
Lithuania (LT) |
32,738 |
37,007 |
+13.0% |
| 29 |
Latvia (LV) |
23,500 |
31,031 |
+32.0% |
| 30 |
Serbia (RS) |
11,264 |
30,797 |
+173.4% |
| 31 |
Luxembourg (LU) |
10,547 |
13,782 |
+30.7% |
| 32 |
Belarus (BY) |
4,987 |
9,329 |
+87.1% |
| 33 |
Macedonia (MK) |
5,034 |
9,302 |
+84.8% |
| 34 |
Iceland (IS) |
7,938 |
8,692 |
+9.5% |
| 35 |
Bosnia and Herzegovina (BA) |
5,691 |
7,740 |
+36.0% |
| 36 |
Moldova (MD) |
1,830 |
6,037 |
+229.9% |
| 37 |
Cyprus (CY) |
4,239 |
4,772 |
+12.6% |
| 38 |
Malta (MT) |
3,291 |
4,453 |
+35.3% |
| 39 |
Andorra (AD) |
2,349 |
1,816 |
-22.7% |
| 40 |
Faroe Island (FO) |
814 |
1,162 |
+42.8% |
| -- |
Rest of Europe |
3,278 |
3,353 |
+2.3% |
| Total |
Europe |
6,402,658 |
8,023,638 |
+25.3% |
| |
|
|
|
|
| -- |
USA (US) |
6,045,984 |
7,135,032 |
+18.0% |
|
|
| Miscellaneous News |
openSUSE package management, Gentoo overlays, Debian with initng, KDE 4.0
 Ever since the infamous openSUSE 10.1 release (with new, but buggy and poorly tested package management backend), the openSUSE developers have been working on improving the experience of managing software for its users. The upcoming openSUSE 10.3 will be no exception as a number of major new features are being introduced into the distribution. Chief among them are improvements in zypper, a command line tool, and openSUSE updater, a software update notification applet. Duncan Mac-Vicar Prett explains the reasons behind the work in this article at openSUSE News: "For 10.3 we sat down and discussed how to improve the situation, in a reasonable time-frame. What we did was concentrate mostly on the 20% that caused 80% of the unhappiness, both for the users and for the developers. The task involved lot of profiling (with lot of help from other teams), designing and trying prototypes and proof of concepts. Then we branched and created a zypp2 library where we started to re-create all parsers, the cache engine, downloaders, etc from scratch, and unit tests for them. Later everything was integrated with the main library and zypp2 was removed. Then the next step was to port zypper and the YaST glue."
* * * * *
 Last week's editorial about Gentoo Linux, while predictably generating a wide range of opinions, also produced one clear message - Gentoo is a distribution that is much appreciated by those Linux users who enjoy tailoring their operating system to their exact needs. But even with the variety of available tools and with the flexibility of Portage, there are still limitations in terms of installing some of the more cutting-edge packages on Gentoo Linux. This is where the Portage overlays come in: "One of my biggest issues with Portage is lack of support for 'new' and emerging (no pun intended) software. What do I mean by that? I mean some of the most-hyped and off-the-wall cool programs that have come out in the last year or so: Compiz Fusion, Avant-Window-Navigator, KDE4, XMMS2, amongst others. I'm not entirely sure why Gentoo developers or managers choose not to support newer software. Supporting it would give these projects more feedback, thus making them stable faster. It would be a contribution to the open source community to offer basic package support for these programs. There's an easy way around this now, without having to compile the source on your own: portage overlays."
* * * * *
 Over the last year or so we have seen much effort among Linux distribution to replace the ancient init system of booting Linux/UNIX with a more modern, faster implementation of the boot process. One way of increasing the boot speed of Debian GNU/Linux (and other distributions) is by replacing its SysVinit system with initng: "The old init system loads services one after the other; initng makes booting faster by loading services in a parallel fashion. There is no reason that process X can't use the CPU while process Y is reading data from disk. Installing initng on Debian 'Lenny' was as simple as installing any other software package. Here are installation instructions for most distributions, installing initng won't mess up the old init systems and you can easily go back when initng doesn't suit you or if it doesn't work. The speed increase I got from booting wasn't that awesome but it was nice. The old init system booted my workstation to the KDM login manager in 23.9 seconds. Booting using initng took 13.2 seconds, so it's nice but nothing jaw-dropping."
* * * * *
 When exactly is the long-awaited KDE 4 going to be released? And once it's out, will it be stable enough for production use? As if reading the minds of testers who have found the recently released first beta of KDE 4 barely usable, the KDE development team has come up with a new plan. Yes, they will release KDE 4 on October 23rd as planned; however, they won't really announce it until January 2008: "For quite some time the KDE team thought about having a KDE 4 release party some months after the original KDE 4.0 release. According to that plan the KDE 4.0 release in October will be official, but not press-release-official - that one will be celebrated some months later." If this goes ahead, probably the hardest part will be explaining the unusual decision to the media: "Most distributions (especially the KDE-centric ones) are not going to pick up KDE 4 as default in the 4th quarter releases. But this issue has to be explained to the industry and to the press and I wonder how these will take it. The KDE team will definitely have to work out some good explanation."
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| Released Last Week |
SmoothWall Express 3.0
SmoothWall Express 3.0, a free firewall distribution that includes its own security-hardened GNU/Linux operating system and an easy-to-use web interface, has been released: "Express 3.0 is our latest version of the long running and successful SmoothWall Express firewall. Headline new features relative to 2.0: supports a 4th network card for Wireless Access Points; 64-bit support; based upon Linux 2.6 kernel; new realtime traffic graph shows traffic bandwidth usage over time (AJAX); per-IP address traffic statistics collection in all traffic stats pages; Instant Messenger proxy with logging and filtering abilities; SATA and SCSI support; streamlined installer and setup; outbound filtering; new update mechanism which can download and install all pending updates with a single click...." Read the comprehensive release notes for full details.
PAIPIX 7.0
PAIPIX is a Debian-based live DVD with focus on scientific applications. A major new version, now based on Debian 4.0 "Etch", was released yesterday: "The new PAIPIX 7 keeps its focus on scientific software but drops the emphasis on a pure live DVD to integrate installation, live and upgrade systems. The new main use cases are: LIVE - starting PAIPIX in the live mode, one has access to complete system including KDE, office and development; INSTALLATION - by starting PAIPIX in the installation mode one has access to the standard Debian installer system; UPGRADE - as part of the entire system, the DVD includes a Debian CD-ROM repository that includes all necessary packages. The PAIPIX ISO images are available in English and in bilingual editions that support both English and one of the following languages: Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian and German." More details in the release announcement.
PAIPIX 7.0 - a Debian-based live and installation DVD with scientific applications
(full image size: 403kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
Absolute Linux 12.0.3
Paul Sherman has released an updated version of Absolute Linux, a Slackware-based distribution with the IceWM window manager and graphical configuration utilities. From the changelog: "Updated slapt-get 0.9.12, gslapt 0.3.18, GnuPG 1.4.7 (which can co-exist with the installed GnuPG 2.x); kernel source header versions corrected, compiles NVIDIA driver OK; adjusted mime handlers in ROX for WMA and WAV files and added conversion scripts in SENDTO menu - wav2mp3, wma2mp3 and flv2avi; fixed error in DevTray where data DVDs were not auto-mounting; fixed modules install to properly match custom kernel; updated to Firefox 2.0.0.6, also updated Xpdf, mkinitr, and the ati, nv and vesa X modules; developer documentation for Qt and xdialog moved to CD2 to make space; Frostwire package added; AbScreen updated to 2.2."
* * * * *
Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
DistroWatch Weekly podcast returns
Good news for all those readers who have missed the podcast edition of DistroWatch Weekly since it was discontinued a few months ago. Thanks to an effort by Jim Putman, the weekly audio (in MP3 format) that includes most of the content from each DistroWatch Weekly is now available once again. Please subscribe to the RSS feed here. If you have any comments or suggestions please email them to Jim (linuxcaster at gmail dot com). Happy listening!
* * * * *
New distributions added to database
* * * * *
New distributions added to waiting list
- BlackRoute. BlackRoute is a Slackware-based security and forensics analysis Linux distribution for x86-compatible architectures. The goal of the project is to create a GNU/Linux distribution for advance users, texttool enthusiasts, network and security specialist, and system administrators.
BlackRoute 0.1 RC1 - a Slackware-based distribution for forensic analysis tasks with WindowMaker
(full image size: 341kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
- Embun. Embun is a Malaysian desktop Linux distribution based on Ubuntu.
Embun 2.0 RC1 - a Malaysian Linux distribution based on Ubuntu
(full image size: 1,586kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
- Lapwing-Linux. Lapwing-Linux is a light-weight desktop distribution based on Slackware Linux.
* * * * *
DistroWatch database summary
And this concludes the latest issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 3 September 2007.
Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Why Internet Explorer has 10% (by Bill Savoie on 2007-08-27 09:55:43 GMT from United States)
I work for the US army and they will not allow any other software on their system. So management makes decisions 10 years ago and then we suffer from that technology. It is clearly ignorant, but many people are making money off of these choices, so will continue.
It is clear that the old way of thinking, the selfish way is dysfunctional. We are forcing the army to use linux, because we want to use clusters. Nothing new in hardware is available for those who will not use Linux. Now if we could just open our hearts and learn that we are no different, that would be a revolution. May peace come to the slowest among us!
2 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 09:56:51 GMT from United States)
People place way too much stock in what Stevie Ray Vaughan-Nichols has to say about anything... It doesn't matter which distribution is the most popular, the only thing that should be considered when choosing a GNU/Linux distribution is whether or not said distribution will meet your needs.
3 • TinyME (by PiEp on 2007-08-27 09:58:37 GMT from Netherlands)
I have been looking for a good way to install PCLinuxOS on an old machine. SAM did not quite do it for me. Although I liked the way it looked, there were a couple of bugs that kept nagging. I think I'll give TinyME a try!
4 • Slackware-based distributions (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 10:04:38 GMT from Portugal)
Whenever I see a new distribution based on Slackware I can only wonder "why?". Why base something on Slackware, that has no real, true and tested, extendable, package management and package repositories?
I've been a Slackware user myself, and I admit Slackware is nice, but it doesn't have anything that other distributions don't have already, and those distributions have something that Slackware doesn't have. Take Debian, for example. Isn't Debian a better platform to work on than Slackware, in the long term?
5 • Question/s regarding DW web log stats (by Observer on 2007-08-27 10:41:54 GMT from Australia)
"....Granted, the DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking doesn't mean all that much and we have been saying this for years. However, our web log analysis of DistroWatch.com visitors' user agent strings indicates...."
Hi Ladislav,
Could you please explain how your web log stats are derived?
Do you only log each distinct visitor ip address once per day?
TIA for any feedback.
6 • CentOS on the Desktop (by Johnny Hughes on 2007-08-27 10:48:50 GMT from United States)
One problem with CentOS on the desktop is that certain things are older. That is the price one pays for Enterprise software.
To help mitigate this for Desktop use, lots of admins replace some items (OpenOffice.org, firefox and thunderbird) with other versions from the manufacturer.
The problem that causes with the weblog analysis is that any CentOS user who has done that with firefox now does not show up as a CentOS user. That would be true if they switched their web browser in any other distro too, however most of the other top distros listed do not require this. This is really only a problem for distros like SLES, RHEL and CentOS.
7 • Archlinux-live (by dancingdog777 on 2007-08-27 11:02:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
Having spent the best part of 2 hours waiting for this distro to download off a busy server (my fault, I picked the wrong time of day!),. finding a blank CD, then burning the ISO, it's very annoying to discover that the distro is a toy, not a working o/s. When I say a toy I mean that it couldn't find and bring into use my bog standard ethernet broadband connection. This is supposed to be a distrubution release not a development release.
I reported it on their forum (from XP) only to be advised to contact their "Live Help" who would talk me through the settings. Are these people clowns? If the "toy" won't connect to the internet, how can you connect to Live Help from it?
I tried it on two different computers, that both work with XP and PCLinuxOS, so it must be their o/s whuich is faulty.
8 • Talking about stats and rankings, check these! (by Observer on 2007-08-27 11:06:47 GMT from Australia)
Currently Active Users: 4239 (550 members and 3689 guests)
Ubuntu Forums Statistics
Threads: 522,262, Posts: 3,250,256, Members: 369,129
http://ubuntuforums.org/
------------
Threads: 232,953, Posts: 1,179,687, Members: 99,355
Currently Active Users: 5084 (209 members and 4875 guests)
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/
--------------
123285 Posts in 15424 Topics by 11298 Members.
Users Online 34 Guests, 22 Users (2 Hidden)
http://www.pclinuxos.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=58
There is always more than one way to skin a cat!
:-)
9 • RE: 5 Question/s regarding DW web log stats (by ladislav on 2007-08-27 11:15:13 GMT from Taiwan)
Could you please explain how your web log stats are derived? Do you only log each distinct visitor ip address once per day?
No, these are standard logs that any Apache web server records, including the browser identification string. That's how I know that you visited DistroWatch with Firefox 2.0.0.5 on Fedora 8 ;-)
10 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 11:15:57 GMT from United States)
Embun's wallpaper looks like it was taken from a developer release of Apple's upcoming Mac OS X 10.5.
11 • DistroWatch in Europe - per capita statistics a comming? (by Yagotta B. Kidding on 2007-08-27 11:29:15 GMT from Germany)
Ladislav,
thank you for the presentation of statistical data concerning the use of DistroWatch in Europe. They show clearly the trend towards Linux and Open Source in the said area. Moreover, they reflect an ever growing importance of the exceptionally well devised Distrowatch web page - thanks a lot againg, to you and your team.
Did you think about producing more meaningful statistics, i.e. per capita numbers, which would reflect the interest in Distrowatch and in Linux/BSD among the populations of the european countries?
It would be interesting to know where are the FOSS strongholds, and who lags behind.
Yours,
YBK
.
12 • RE 7: Archie (by KimTjik on 2007-08-27 11:34:37 GMT from Sweden)
The only Live-CD I know of is Archie. Be aware that it's a projekt based on Arch, it's not Arch, so you couldn't really expect the main Arch forum to be able to support it. Archie has it's own place: http://archie.dotsrc.org/?q=node/2
If it's based on Arch and hasn't changed it's KISS approach - I'm using Arch myself - I wouldn't expect your internet connection to automatically work. Arch is great if you feel comfortable with editing close to every configuration directly among the different text-files in /etc. But if interested I can't see why it's a problem to ask for help in the correct forum dealing and developing the project.
The original Arch isn't available as a Live-CD. And besides that the newest Archie Live-CD is 0.6RC2, so it's far from being a stable and final release.
13 • RE: 11 DistroWatch in Europe - per capita statistics a comming? (by ladislav on 2007-08-27 11:39:29 GMT from Taiwan)
I was mostly interested in the year-on-year growth figures. As for pec-capit stats, you can find some older ones here:
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060925#stats
14 • Re 9...Hi ladislav, I am just beta testing a live cd fedora 8 t1 (by Observer on 2007-08-27 11:41:23 GMT from Australia)
...and just installed "NoScript" in Firefox. Can you still see my browser markers?
So how many times could 1 person get logged by your sever if they came and left, came and left (left and came back), etc in a day?
BTW, I ran across a very good interview with you - 2005 - by a Czech linux website: Interview with Ladislav Bodnar - distrowatch.com
:-)
Observing the Observer
15 • RE: 14 I am just beta testing a live cd fedora 8 t1 (by ladislav on 2007-08-27 11:52:47 GMT from Taiwan)
Yes, you are still in the logs.
If you don't want to be logged (or want to disguise yourself), you can use a Firefox extension to change or disable your user agent string. Otherwise you can also use an anonymous proxy server, Tor or whatever tool all the privacy freaks use these days. Of course, you can also stay off the Internet forever ;-)
On an average day there are over 2 million lines in the Apache web log file on DistroWatch. I keep each day's log for a week, then it gets deleted.
16 • Qu 14 Does the proportion of comers and leavers vary that much (by dbrion on 2007-08-27 12:07:21 GMT from France)
from one year to another (perhaps pple keep the same habits of browsing)? Is it an important proportion?
BTW, one should not be too serious with figures: my PC works under XP, the license is paid. When one of my colleagues who counts linux usage asked me, I told him I had installed Mingw (a linux clone, fast but uncomfortable), and Cygwin (a slower, but more comfortable linux clone) => he counted two (1+1) linuxen more....to tell our boss linux is much used and demanded....
17 • Zenwalk (by Thomas on 2007-08-27 12:29:28 GMT from United States)
I expect Zenwalk to perform a little better in the surveys, mainly because of its stability and because it seems perfectly-suited for the average home desktop user. But given time, I expect it to be the most popular Slack-based distro available, not that it really matters.
18 • Yoper was the "Winner" of DesktopLinux Survey 2004.... (by Where is Yoper now? on 2007-08-27 12:44:19 GMT from Australia)
Yoper 18.3 %
Mandrake 14.1 %
SuSE 14 %
Red Hat 12.3 %
Debian 11.9 %
Gentoo 8.1 %
Slackware 6.3 %
Lindows (a.k.a. Linspire) 3.7 %
Xandros 2.6 %
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0215200495458
19 • RE: 10 Yep (by Sam on 2007-08-27 12:46:26 GMT from United States)
Don't you just love how some Linux distros borrow wallpaper from other more established OSes? Everytime I boot Vista at work I stare at a wallpaper from Redmond that someone lifted and set as the default wallpaper for a Brazilian distro (I think) that this very website featured a few months back, AND a distro that ended up featured as "pretty" in the pages of Linux Format.
You have to wonder if many people spinning their own Linux distros give so little regard to the graphic design of their product that lifting images from Redmond or Cupertino isn't much of a problem. Problematically, at least in the IP-nazi United States, I wonder what are the chances the image was copyright property of either Bill or Steve, or even the poor photographer schlub who snapped the pic in the first place...
Oh well, at least they didn't have an apple on the screen :).
20 • Distros with staying power (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 12:52:30 GMT from Australia)
Check them out on Kde Wallpaper - Sexy Bellucci Linux--0.
Suse, Red Hat, Gentoo, Debian and Slackware!
21 • Slackware since .99 with the floppy copy shuffle (by J. Grab on 2007-08-27 12:55:58 GMT from United States)
I use many operating systems in the course of the week because I choose to and not because one is necessitated. Live distros, installed flavors, and even portable applications on the storage of my ipod for Windows.
Slackware was my first linux distribution back with .99 and I veered into others when I had some hardware on a laptop to be configured and I wasn't talented enough (stubborn enough but not quite geeky enough) and used a Red Hat installation (back when the coax was twisted on with 50 ohm resistors too).
Slackware, for many of the same reasons as Ubuntu, inspires numerous live distributions and mini-distributions I seek out and want to try and see and feel the difference. Slackware appeals to my principles and it is not about packaging systems or the latest bleeding edge (as Gentoo was the rage for a while about emerging). If you account for all the flavors based on Slackware you still wouldn't catch up on Ubuntu's downloads for all their flavors based on Ubuntu. Doesn't matter.
Ubuntu is what Free Geek is currently using ( http://www.freegeek.org ) and I presume their choice is the educational angle. The support angle. But I like Mepis, and I like Blue White, and I like Slax, and all of them for their own reasons as much as everyone loved Knoppix as a swiss army knife. After growing up with options like "PC Dos or MS-Dos", or "You either boot from the flash memory or burn your own eprom", How wonderful to be burdened with a variety to choose from.
I'll continue to download Slackware-based distributions, and usually every other release of Slackware as it is still the flavor beyond sentimental reasons I will want to see continue and encourage other projects.
22 • Popularity -- Another reasons (by winsnomore on 2007-08-27 12:57:43 GMT from United States)
Dell is using Ubuntu, so is Google internally. Small (and new) distro's have an uphill battle getting into to corp., so these stats will show a bias.
Let's not kid ourselves, the page hits on this site are a very "good" indication of popularity of a distro.
It took Ubuntu some gaming of the stat's to be on the top. I doubt if anyone has accused PCLINUX OS of the same.
The battle will be won by those who provide "functional" distro's.
This madness of Alpha/Beta/RC's .. have gone too far and I think is the reason for the drop-off of Suse/Ubuntu .. and may be Fedora.
23 • Stats (by Arthur Sa on 2007-08-27 13:10:50 GMT from United States)
Stats................Linux is a hobie for me, so I down load just about every new ISO that is anountist.
Popularity must be influenced by what works. So far on my Dell 4400 I have only gotten Ubuntu, PClinuxOS, SimplyMepis and Pioneer Explorer(but, unable to install) to run.
24 • RE: 4 and Slack's popularity to remaster (by Landor on 2007-08-27 13:12:41 GMT from Canada)
I think this has to do mainly with the Live Scripts created by Tomas from SLAX.
They're made it really simple to remaster Slackware and run with it. Also because of this I've read a lot about the various Distros who are using the scripts to work together as a larger community. Passing their knowledge amongst each other freely.
Ladislav (last year I believe, yes I found this too) did an article somewhee else (Linux Journal?) about Live Scripts and he rolled his own in 20 minutes or so with the Live Scripts after Slack was installed.
With those speeds and how simple it is to do. I can see why so many are hopping on the Slackware/Live Scripts train and running with it.
If they would throw emerde in there with a ton of binaries, or get apt-get to work with their roll, they'd have one wicked distro.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
25 • OS-disaster-correction in relation to distro-testing, DW-info-corner? (by Jan O on 2007-08-27 13:12:48 GMT from Netherlands)
Hello,
For over a year I have tested several linux-distros. Mostly there was something wrong or disfunctioning (no ntfs-access, no normal audio-codecs, WINE not installable, installed programs not accessable (e.g. MOC installed but no icon or menu-item available)), uncomprehensible installation process (ARCH), or HD>138GB (at which an installation can fail (Grub-error -> no multibooting into anything !!)).
There are only very few distros at which everything is more or less OK. For instance Ubuntu+Automatix simply has everything, without to much difficulties.
During this year, and lately again, I had OS-disasters. I lost my common OS and even my data-partition (all media-files and docu-files). Sometimes, mostly, because I made errors out of too much lack of knowledge. So errors which any linux-newby will inevetably run into.
For instance, if you write the GRUB-bootloader accidently to your ntfs-partition. Or when you use partition-analysing-programs on a bootable rescue-CD, when your BIOS does not fully correctly support your HD (>138G), you are going to create a huge problem (my last disasters).
I succeeded in all cases, untill now, to fully rescue all my data-/doc-files. With aid of partition/boot/mbr-recovery rescue-programs (installed under Windows), or MBR-restore utilities (GAG is very efficient/easy with this).
And 'Partition Find and Mount' (trial-version) enables to find and access partions with fully destroyed Partition-/Boot-info (so a miracle!!). You need of cource a second OS (I have 2 HS's) to make this working.
Also Testdisk and Partition Table Doctor were of great benefit to me. However none of these programs alone-applied, proved to be sufficient, the combination did the trick.
I wonder if Distrowatch can make an information-corner, like the top-10 distro-explanation, where newbies are explained which precautions and the do's and don't are given.
And how (and which free rescue-programs) disasters can be corrected (data- and docu-files recovered).
Then smart and efficient knowledge is shared on this point ?
Best Regards
Jan O
26 • No subject (by Sokraates on 2007-08-27 13:15:08 GMT from Austria)
Log statistics are a bit deceiving. I use XP at work and that's where I usually visit Distrowatch from, especially to read DWW. My main Kubuntu system on the other hand won't show up as often in the Distrowatch logs.
Anyway, nice DWW-issue. Thanks, Ladislav.
27 • I wonder where Opera users will get logged? (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 13:15:31 GMT from Australia)
Browser identification
Opera/9.22 (X11; Linux i686; U; en)
Using Opera, it seems I can not post on this forum.
28 • RE: 22 • Popularity -- Another reasons (by winsnomore) (by YBK on 2007-08-27 13:48:42 GMT from Germany)
Dear winsnomore,
What you said:
> The battle will be won by those who provide functional distros
simply isn't true. I disagree not to just disagree, but to point you to the evidence of what is behind a sheer "functionality": stringence.
The distros that are popular, "winning" ones, are those that offer a consistent, stringent computing experience to the user. Functionality as such is a mere pre-requisite, but not enough to influence a decision in favour od a particular operating system (!), to say nothing of its flavour.
Without the GNU tools, and countles userspace programmes, Linux kernel is not very convincing piece of software. Only if you add a GUI, tools and applications you will get an interesting solution. Each and every GUI is functional, but not everyone is consistent with the apps.
You understand my point? That's the winning strategy of Apple: give a stringent system to the people. Thanks to this approach, they win new customers each day even if their system is not the most functional one. The same is true to any other niche player.
SUSE used to be quite popular thanks to this approach, but after they killed the consistent computing experience they were once famous for, they started loosing their strong market position. The new SUSE apps are far _more_ functional than the old ones, yet they are introducing inconsistencies, and so the distro loses ground.
Same with Windows - the only selling point of Vista is its GUI, which is pretty (to some) and offers a consistent experience (to everybody).
A "winning" distro has to be functional, of course, but fist and foremost it has to give the user the warm and fuzzy feeling of absolute consistency and stringency.
Every other approach is nerdy, and has no chance in the marketplace independently of its functionality.
Do you grasp it now?
Yours,
YBK
PS: Ladislav, thank you for answering my question about the statistics (posting # 13).
.
29 • distro family (by Ken Yap on 2007-08-27 13:58:31 GMT from Australia)
I think one of the reasons people exclaim "too many distros" is because they are all in a flat namespace, and this obscures the fact that many of the distros are localisations or variants.
Ladislav, how about adding one more column to your table of distros, the family. This will give recognition to the similarities between distros. I'll bet that there are not more than a dozen major distro families.
RedHat
SUSE
Mandrake
Slackware
Debian
Ubuntu (has enough mass now)
Gentoo
FreeBSD
Knoppix (Debian I know, but it spawned lots of live CD distros)
Any major family I missed?
The Other category, which covers things like Puppy, LFS, IPCop, etc.
Are there hybrids? I'm sure there are so the row family might be multiple.
Probably by 2012, we might hear the plaintive cry: too many families! :-)
30 • RE: 29 (by Landor on 2007-08-27 14:03:25 GMT from Canada)
This is already here to a degree under the search function. You can choose the search criteria by what the distribution is based on.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
31 • RE:30 (by Landor on 2007-08-27 14:08:08 GMT from Canada)
Just to make further note. I really love the way you have the information laid out on the site Ladislav. The search page alone is greatly detailed, and although I am sure someone could find some other thing to add to it, it really is fantastic for finding out info on such a wide spectrum of criteria.
Thank you for all the effort gone into the site.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
32 • PCLinuxOS (by marsle on 2007-08-27 14:10:08 GMT from United States)
I have tried all the major distros. Overall, I like PCLinuxOS the best.
33 • RE: 4 • Slackware-based distributions (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 10:04:38 GMT f (by Anonymous_Slacker on 2007-08-27 14:12:04 GMT from United States)
i been using Linux since 1998 and i tried LOTs of distributions including debian & debian based distros, and the debian & debian based distros are the most annoying distro i ever used, if you wanna build some sourcecode on debian & debian based distros ([eg] ubuntu) before anything will build you have to download over a hundred -dev packages for the packages already installed which are really parts of one package that was stripped out (headers & C files) that should have been left intact & included in the first place, slackware does not break down a single package in to two or three packages and omit the headers & C files, so if i do a clean install of slackware i can immediately start building what i want & need from source which is a great convenience to me...
if not for slackware i would probably use Arch or Crux, and/or abandon Linux completely for FreeBSD, if i had no choice but to use debian for Linux i most certainly would abandon Linux for FreeBSD...
34 • Tinyme, TinyFlux (by Red-Beard on 2007-08-27 14:21:55 GMT from United States)
Tinyme is a great way to install the power of PCLinuxOS, and if fantastic control center, on older hardware. There is another distro that is also as good for this purpose, it referred to as TinyFlux, officially its PCFluxboxOS. It also is in the testing stages right now, but I really like both of them.
TinyFlux can be found at the Tinyme forums, under the post PCFluxboxOS. Give it and Tinyme a spin.
Best Regards
Red-Beard
35 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 14:27:34 GMT from Canada)
I wonder why he installed initng on his Debian. Upstart is in experimental, which makes you think that the Debian foundation will be going in that direction (if they even replace sysvinit).
36 • RE 33 : missing developpers packages in debian (by dbrion on 2007-08-27 14:30:26 GMT from France)
This happens too with Mandriva's and WhiteBoxe's default install, AFAIK (and I fear it will be a very heavy trend).....
Some pple prefer developping from the original sources (which are obviously more uptodate than any distr.) , in separate portions of their disks : the distr offers some basic comfort, and she is not demanded _anything_ else and one's favorite app(s) (and, if necessay, the packages it/they depend on) are recompiled and kept uptodate. This solution, which is very traditionnal, allows the coexistence of more than two versions of one's favorite app(s).
OTOH PCBSD seems (from qemulating under Mandriva 2006, my qemu being compiled, of course) very simple to install and has every header one needs...
37 • Re. 29: Distro Confusion (by UZ64 on 2007-08-27 14:54:46 GMT from United States)
Yeah, the number of distros can be quite confusing. It was to me, until I learned the differences between all the major differences. After trying out hundreds of distros the last few years in my quest to find the best ones and learn about Linux in general, I've saved the ISO images of my favorites and keep them up to date on an external hard drive. For my own purposes, I decided to create a text file mapping all the "major" distros and all of my favorite distros based on them. It still helps me as an overview of my favorite distros and their relations. Who knows, maybe it'll help someone else too? So I'll post it here:
---
Linux:
Arch - Archie
Debian - KNOPPIX, Parsix, MEPIS, Sidux
Fedora - BLAG, CentOS
Mandriva - PCLinuxOS, SAM Linux
openSUSE
Slackware - Frugalware, KateOS, Kwort, SLAX, VectorLinux, Wolvix, Zenwalk
Ubuntu - Linux Mint
Misc.: CRUX
Source-based: Gentoo, Lunar, Source Mage
Others: Absolute, CCux, Fluxbuntu, Foresight, Pardus, Ultima, Yoper
---
Just note that this is a personal list, so someone else's favorite distro may not be on it. For example, Sabayon seems popular around here, yet every time I try it, it always fails to impress in various ways, and in fact disappoints. So, of course it's not there. Also, the KateOS team seems to want you to believe that their distro is no longer Slackware-based at all, simply because they recompile their packages to the point of it being binary-incompatible with its parent; whether you want to call it a Slack-based distro or not, take your pick, but in my opinion it's more Slack than anything else so that's where I put it.
As for the "Others," those are mostly distros that I've tried and seem alright, but I likely wouldn't run myself for various reasons... and I might actually remove some of them and stop keeping track of them eventually. In case of Yoper, I'm waiting to see if they can bring it back to the quality of the old Yoper, back when Andreas was the lead developer. As for Ultima, they don't seem to have any decent mirrors and only have BitTorrent links to their live images. Absolute seems to be a specialty distro, geared toward old systems... a little too bare for me, but if you don't have much power/memory, it's a good distro in terms of features and system requirements. The rest seem to aim for pure ease-of-use, even when it means less performance, often with their own special system configuration tools.... just your typical, average-performing distros that come with all you may need. I can't help but get annoyed at all the attempts at system configuration GUI tools in these distros though (some unification, please!), and will likely remove some of these.
And one more note: Many of these also have live CD versions and come in different "versions" containing different desktop environments, which I didn't list (in order to keep it clean).
38 • Popularityl data.. (by Geoff on 2007-08-27 14:58:01 GMT from United States)
My interpretation of the close match between Ubuntu's page hit rankings at this site and the survey result is simply that Ubuntu users flood this site, plain and simple; it's a business strategy and there is your result, skewed "data."
39 • Popularity and Functional Distros (by winsnomore on 2007-08-27 15:16:01 GMT from United States)
@YBK
>Dear winsnomore,
> you said:
>>The battle will be won by those who provide functional distros
> simply isn't true. I disagree not to just disagree, but to point you to the evidence of what is behind a sheer "functionality": stringence. ......
I don't know what (or why) are nickpicking, I wanted to be brief, what I meant by functional simply meant "it works"
None of distro's have "original" content except boot and 90+ % distro's mess it up that it fails to work for a number of users.
To say something is functional in this context simply means it works .. the "user experience" is really up to the package developers .. and NONE of these distro's do that.
> You understand my point?
No
> That's the winning strategy of Apple: give a stringent system to the people. Thanks to this approach, they win new customers each day even if their system is not the most functional one ...
You are wrong about this .. I wonder if you would have made this statement oh about 10 years earlier when Apple was almost ready to shutter up.
>> A "winning" distro has to be functional, of course, but fist and foremost it has to give the user the warm and fuzzy feeling of absolute consistency and stringency.......
So that's the point here? Does any distro develops OO or gcc ?
> Do you grasp it now?
I fail to .. I must be thick
40 • Install Linux on the PC's at big box stores!! (by Ultra on 2007-08-27 15:17:28 GMT from Canada)
Wanna have some fun? Bring a Linux install CD to your local big box electronics store and install it to one of the display computers. Then go somewhere close by and watch everyone marvel!
41 • come on, Ladislav... (by EduardoZ on 2007-08-27 15:23:14 GMT from United States)
You have not yet answered the question posed twice in #5 and #14 about "How Many Times a Day Can One Visitor Be Counted?" I have assumed it would be one time by IP address. But, now you've left the question hanging in the air. Inquiring minds want to know.
42 • popularity by geoff (by Casey on 2007-08-27 15:24:18 GMT from United States)
Of course it could ALSO be that we ubuntu users come here for news. I know I do, and its not to SKEW anything. Ubuntu gets the numbers BECAUSE it HAS the numbers.
I do find it humorous that e-peen envy pervades here almost as badly as it does in the gaming community. :D
43 • Re 37 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 15:30:34 GMT from Estonia)
>Others: Absolute, CCux, Fluxbuntu, Foresight, Pardus, Ultima, Yoper
Absolute and Ultima are Slackware based distributions.
Fluxbuntu is Ubuntu based.
Foresight is rPath based.
44 • Re. 43 (by UZ64 on 2007-08-27 15:34:53 GMT from United States)
"Absolute and Ultima are Slackware based distributions.
Fluxbuntu is Ubuntu based.
Foresight is rPath based."
I know, I know, I know, and I know. :)
Like I said, this was originally for my own purposes, and therefore put in a way that makes the most sense to me. Since I'm still contemplating on whether I want to keep track of those distros, they're placed under "Others." Absolute *was* under Slackware for a while, until I decided that maybe it's not quite what I want. It'll either go back where it was if I decide it's worth keeping an eye on, or be dropped from the list completely.
45 • PCLOS (by JimK on 2007-08-27 16:27:07 GMT from United States)
PCLOS is the only distro I've found so far that works easily with all my hardware, though I haven't yet tried OpenSuse (in the middle of the 4 gig download of 10.3 Beta. PCLOS is the only one that I can get to do 1680x1050 resolution with my onboard unichrome video. It's also the only one I've found that offers to set up NDISwrapper when it can't detect a wireless card. Another plus about PCLOS is that once when I posted a question in the user forums, Texstar, the developer, answered my question personally. Talk about great service.
Though I've been very pleased with PCLOS, I am looking for a replacement. Why? Because I've had it installed for about a year, and distros always seem to start breaking during that timeframe. For instance, sometimes the system hangs during shutdown and I have to hold down the power switch to turn it off. But mainly, I always want to try something new. I used Suse a couple of years ago and it worked fairly well, so I'm hoping it will work with my widescreen LCD. So far, Ubuntu, Fedora and RHEL-based distros haven't.
46 • Desktop Linux survey (by linuxguy07 on 2007-08-27 16:38:11 GMT from United States)
One possible explanation for the poor showings by PCLOS and Mint might be that they seem to be very popular with new Linux users who might not be aware of Desktop Linux, or who didn't participate in their survey. Much like your PHR's, this is a very unofficial ranking, which might also explain the popularity of older, more established entrants like Gentoo. Their users would be more likely to be aware of that site and survey, in my humble opinion.
Since Distrowatch seems to be more and more popular with Linux users, maybe YOU should conduct your own survey. It might produce more current data, and might include a higher percentage of recent converts.
47 • Super Live Boot 0.9620 (by adrian15 on 2007-08-27 16:54:10 GMT from Spain)
Can anyone try this ISO (only 3 MB) that I have made?
It is a demo of a boot options interface based on grub and super grub disk for the Konppix distro.
Thank you very much.
ISO url: http://sgd.howto-linux.de/.../knoppix_5.1.1_plus_sgd_0.9620_demo.iso
You can comment here or send me an email to adrian15sgd THEROUNDTHING gmail DOT com or the best thing BOTH methods.
Thank you again.
adrian15
48 • Archlinux (by Nnyan on 2007-08-27 17:26:11 GMT from United States)
@7
While I'm surprised that Archlinux did not configure your nic correctly (I use 4 test PCs of varying ages and it detected and installed the drivers for the nic's with no problems) I don't think you're being very fair with calling it a "toy" just b/c of this reason.
I'm one of those people that keeps their old PC's going as test boxes and I enjoy installing and trying new distros. In the past I've had Fedora not start X properly, I've had numerous distros not detect wifi, SuSE had problems with generic graphics drivers, etc... Its more common then not that SOME hardware will have issues with SOME distro. Does that make them a "toy"? I don't think so. I'm not sure how experienced you are with Linux but that sort of thing happens.
Also call the people trying to help you clowns. If you were able to post on the forum would it not be a good assumption that you had access to the internet? Could you not then take notes (if the xp box was not next to your linux box) that would help you take care of his minor issue?
I can remember numerous times that I had some type of problem on one of my windoze boxes and used another box to gather needed info/drivers/etc...
Also if you took the time to read about Arch Linux you would quickly find that this is not a distro geared towards the noob. If you select this distro you should accept the fact that you will have to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty (as they say) getting everything to work.
49 • Wasn't the SUN license a buyout? Novell's revenue stream was illegally cut! (by What Is gong on at 2007-08-27 17:31:35 GMT from United States)
I seem to recall that the SUN license was, among other things, a buyout of an
existing license. Thus, an annual revenue stream from SUN to Novell was severed
by the buyout. SCO had no right to negotiate a buyout without Novell's approval
and participation.
Certainly, SUN's existing rights did not include the right to disclose Unix
code, as they have subsequently done. The price SUN paid for the right to
disclose Unix code should be seen as an upper bound to SCO's claims against IBM.
SCO certainly did not charge billions to authorize SUN to do what they accuse
IBM of.
http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20070824223125703...
Authored by: Anonymous on Saturday, August 25 2007 @ 05:10 PM EDT
I could not have said it better.
50 • Well.. :O) (by Geoff on 2007-08-27 17:40:27 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu's "numbers" are skewed. They were the first to get busted on linking to the distrowatch page at their site so that the numbers would get inflated. Others have done that, too, but why would this "humanity" based distro feel the need to balloon the page hits for their distro here?
And, of course, old habits don't die; the distrowatch site is very popular with Ubuntu users is all I get out of their "numbers" here.
On the other subject, of just how the stats update here, I hit the Freespire once per day and watched the number there stay at 386 and go DOWN each day.. but that was with the "6 months" selected. I changed it to "One month" and watch the numbers go up each day.
Perhaps the site admin will clarify someday.
51 • RE 41 There are different ways of counting (visits and DW HPD) (by dbrion on 2007-08-27 17:46:21 GMT from France)
>> "How Many Times a Day Can One Visitor Be Counted?" I have assumed it would be one time by IP address. But, now you've left the question hanging in the air. Inquiring minds want to know.
EOQ
I think it depends:
* for the growth of DW
, the visitors stats are not filtered by IP adress to become unique: the error generated by repetitive comers and leavers , is then thought as weak (if it remains from one year to another, it fully compensates): this is rather smart for computing a trend...
* for DW HPD, as it is sometimes used (very unprofessionaly IMO) for advertising (if a distr pays a public relation man to do that, it seems a case of a fire war, IMO, and there is a better use of money), they are made unique on a daily basis to avoid "cheating"...
I hope I understood and explained fairly what Monsieur Bodnar wrote many times .
the parts between () are only my opinion, of course...
52 • PCLinuxOS for me (by Rob on 2007-08-27 18:34:19 GMT from United States)
For me, PCLinuxOS is where it's at. I have it on both my desktop and laptop. Occasionally, just to see what other distros look and work like, I'll swap out the hard drive (or just fire up VMware) and try out something else. I've played with Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Sabayon, Mint, Sidux, DreamLinux, OpenSUSE, and even good ol' Slackware, but in a day or two I'll get frustrated with some feature that doesn't work (or app that won't install) and end up back on PCLOS. I guess it's like a well-worn leather glove that fits very nicely now.
53 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 18:49:07 GMT from United States)
Just wondering if there's a way to fix the problem with long URL's in comments. It is nearly impossible to read the comments right now, as they extend past my screen and into the ads.
54 • I don't care about these surveys either (by KimTjik on 2007-08-27 19:15:19 GMT from Sweden)
"The enterprise class products, such as CentOS, Red Hat Enterprise Linux and SUSE Linux Enterprise are probably not used much on the desktop or their users care little for either DistroWatch or Linux market surveys."
That's probably very close to the truth. There are other distributions as well where you even see comments in the forums about not being so interested in making any PR here on anywhere. Personally I don't care about it either. I check DW to keep track of developments; sometimes DW is a handy tool when I can't remember the name of a smaller and more specialized distribution, or need links and so forth.
Furthermore several of the "more popular" distributions according to DW or some other survey, depend technically on the less "popular" (popularity is sometimes gained solely on having mp3 or some proprietary driver support included). Hence I'm quite sure that some of these "popular" ones would become nervous if their base suddenly disappeared, before they would find a new host.
There's still plenty of space for everyone.
55 • RE 53 (by KimTjik on 2007-08-27 19:19:08 GMT from Sweden)
I wonder about that too. I ran around to check the other systems and found that as for now this page doesn't get right unless the screen has a resolution of something like 1650x"*". Home page look fine though in 1280x"*".
56 • how popular is a distribution (by colin davidson on 2007-08-27 19:22:25 GMT from Netherlands)
For the dedicated Linux enthusiast and the computor literate user I suppose there shall be a lot of discussion as to which Linux distribution is the best.
For myself and the many millions of computor illiterate human beings on this planet the discussion amongst the Linux community should be, how do we produce a distribution that can be easily used by people who don't know a 'command line' from a 'washing line' or a 'apt-get' from a 'what's that'.
As a 58 year old with no formal computer training windows XP is easy to use. Just a few clicks of the mouse and anything can be downloaded. All the popular programs such as Limewire, Google Earth and an infinate amount of browsers and multimedia programs, everything that the youth of today (myself included) requires on their system. This unfortunatly is not the case with Linux.
Sometime ago I read 2 headlines. One was 'Linuxs for all' and the other one was 'Vista is the best thing that could happen to Linux'. Because of those headlines I have spent the past year experimenting with different Linux distributions such as Ubuntu, Susu, Mandriva, Pardus, Sabayon, Freespire and many many more only to come to the conclusion that there is not one Linux distribution that, for someone with my limited knowledge, is easy to use, has the flexibility and choise of packages to download.
It is unfortunate that, myself and probably many millions more, who would like to get away from the monopoly that is Microsoft have (because of our limited computer no-how) simply no alternatives.
Please,please Linux people build a distribution for the common man.
Colin Davidson.
57 • DesktopLinux Survey (by Kirobhan on 2007-08-27 19:23:58 GMT from United States)
"Ubuntu figure also includes those of Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, etc, since the DesktopLinux survey also grouped them together."
Sounds like padding the numbers to me. If a distribution has a separate name treat it like one. I mean why not just lump Ubuntu into Debian or PCLinuxOS into Mandriva while your at it.
58 • More Posts Don't Mean More Popluar (by KrAZYPENGUIN on 2007-08-27 19:40:50 GMT from Canada)
To the dude that thinks more posts in a forum relates to popularity.
The members/post ratio might give you an indictation of how functional the forum is, or if the number is low, then lots of people signed up but then left for another distro.
59 • Layout of comments (by Patrick Useldinger on 2007-08-27 19:41:19 GMT from Luxembourg)
Am I the only one who can hardly read this page? The width is about twice my screen, and the text on the left overlaps with the boxes on the right.
60 • Re Layout (by Hey on 2007-08-27 20:03:18 GMT from United States)
I agree, I'm having the same problems with the boxes on the right bleeding on top of the text. Running Firefox in Windows.
61 • Popularity (by ringwraith on 2007-08-27 20:13:16 GMT from United States)
"No matter how futile the matter is, many of us seem obsessed with the idea of determining the popularity and market share of Linux distributions."
Obviously not a Slackware user....
62 • Re 59, 60 Layout of comments (by JimK on 2007-08-27 20:30:33 GMT from United States)
Yes, it looks awful. It's way too wide to read comfortably. Also, I think it's time Distrowatch find some way to do threaded comments instead of a long list that sometimes gets into the hundreds with no way to follow anything.
63 • layout is bad in Windows (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 21:13:59 GMT from United States)
Replying to the posts above me:
Yeah I've tried it in IE 7, Firefox and Opera. It won't load IE and in Firefox and Opera the textformatting is wrong. So not only does DW stats not mean a thing, but they can't even format html on their website! Way to go DW, another victory!
64 • Reading the Comments (by Richard S on 2007-08-27 21:58:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yes, there is something wrong with this page this week. However, Opera can fix it:
Choose "Fit to width" and then "Zoom" to a comfortable font size.
65 • re 37 (by Werewolf on 2007-08-27 22:01:52 GMT from Romania)
@UZ64 Frugalware isn't derived from Slackare !!!!!!!!
quote from distrowatch's description :
" Frugalware Linux is an independently developed general purpose desktop Linux distribution designed for intermediate users. It follows simple Slackware-like design concepts and includes the "pacman" package management utility from Arch Linux."
get it ? i hope so! :D
66 • RE: 41 come on (by ladislav on 2007-08-27 22:03:50 GMT from Taiwan)
Your question is answered here: http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity
67 • From that link: (by Jerry on 2007-08-27 22:19:42 GMT from United States)
"The Page Hit Ranking statistics have attracted plenty of attention and feedback. Originally, each distribution-specific page was pure HTML with a third-party counter at the bottom to monitor interest of visitors. Later the pages were transformed into plain text files with PHP generating all the HTML code, but the original counter remained unchanged. In May 2004 the site switched from publicly viewable third-party counters to internal counters. This was prompted by a continuous abuse of the counters by a handful of undisciplined individuals who had confused DistroWatch with a voting station. The counters are no longer displayed on the individual distributions pages, but all visits (on the main site, as well as on mirrors) are logged. Only one hit per IP address per day is counted."
68 • Re: 63, 62, 60, 59, et. al. (by Henry Nettles on 2007-08-27 22:24:09 GMT from United States)
My screen is 1280 x 1024, OS is Vista on an Nvidia Quadro. I tried Opera (latest), Firefox (latest), and IE7. ONLY IE7 properly formatted this page. Yeah, I know, it surprised the hell out of me, too.
69 • initng bootup speed (by stolennomenclature on 2007-08-27 22:43:05 GMT from Australia)
Was interested by the closing comment re using initng to speed up booting, as follows:
The old init system booted my workstation to the KDM login manager in 23.9 seconds. Booting using initng took 13.2 seconds, so it's nice but nothing jaw-dropping.
The speed improvement is almost 50%, but apparently that was not enough to be impressive. Yet it is common for hardware reviews of cpu's, graphics cards, motherboards, etc, to make comments like "blew it away", "smoked it", "left it for dead", "took the world by storm" for speed differentials of only 10% or even less. Obviously hardware enthusiasts seem to have jaws that drop very easily - perhaps they need to take jaw excercises to firm up those muscles.
70 • Re 65 (by UZ64 on 2007-08-27 22:59:53 GMT from United States)
"get it ? i hope so! :D"
Yeah, actually I remember reading that while doing my research, but to me it just made more sense to put it under "Slackware." Although it really isn't, it just makes more sense because it's so similar. It's not big enough (or mature enough), IMO, to put under its own category, so I didn't. Until then, it stays where it is on my own copy of the list. :p
I guess I *could* put it under "Misc." with CRUX, which was put under that label for the same reasons pretty much: not quite based off of any other distro (as far as I know), has no major derivatives, and not very big (popularity-wise). The reason I didn't do that, though, goes back to the fact that it acts so much like Slack. Oh well, I'll be watching this distro either way...
71 • Not jawdropping? Almost 50% performance? (by K3NSAI on 2007-08-27 23:45:37 GMT from Puerto Rico)
OMG, I agree with #69 there is almost 50% improvement and that is not jaw dropping, just LOL. I guess they were expecting 75 - 95% speed improvements? Nice dwn like always, but please do not say something like that again. ;)
72 • Firefox, etc.. (by Anonymous on 2007-08-27 23:55:09 GMT from United States)
"ONLY IE7 properly formatted this page.."
Same here. Didn't surprise me, though.
73 • ARch Linux (by tom on 2007-08-28 00:06:59 GMT from United States)
Re #7
dancingdog777
Arch Linux is targeted at let us say a more advanced user.
Nonetheless , which CD are you talking about exactly ?
Without knowing which distro we are talking about it is hard to advise ...
In general, if you want to use Arch Linux you need to be prepared to do some reading as this distro will not hold your hand.
In general, networking should be fairly straight forward and I would refer you to the Arch wiki. I have run several live arch CD's and the network in up and running with a single command, piece of cake ...
74 • RE: 56 (by Anonymous at from )
is easy to use, has the flexibility and choise of packages to download.
Depends on what you're wanting to do and what packages you need. For basic things, there is no question that Linux is MUCH easier. Have you asked? Give us a try right now.
Did you use the package manager? Certainly that is a lot easier than installing software on Windows. It not only downloads and installs the programs, it also tracks dependencies and manages your software, to prevent any problems.
No spyware or virus problems to worry about. Ever dig into your registry on Windows XP? If you don't know what a registry is, and how to edit it, you should not get anywhere near Windows. The difference is that Microsoft works hard to hide the difficulties from the user, whereas with Linux everything is in the open. Windows also hides the problems of security by making everyone root. Hardly an ideal situation, but considering that 95% of the population thinks "using a computer" means "turning it on and clicking to get programs to run" they've made a lot of money keeping users in the dark.
With the correct forum and a beginner-friendly distribution, I cannot imagine that it is easier to use Windows for basic tasks. Yes, almost anyone can run Windows. Very few can run Windows correctly. Almost anyone can also be the CEO of a company, though very few can avoid running the company into bankruptcy.
75 • #66 and #77 (by EduardoZ on 2007-08-28 00:50:24 GMT from United States)
OK, fine, guys. But, that could have been posted in answer to #5 and #14, rather than #41. I'm just sayin'...
76 • Wrapping long links (by Peter Besenbruch on 2007-08-28 02:43:36 GMT from Germany)
For Firefox, you want the MR Tech Link Wrapper extension.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2021
And for adrian15, who supplied the humongous link to an ISO, try http://tinyurl.com. Tinyurl exists to make links manageable. The same applies to "What Is gong on at 2007-08-27's" link to Groklaw.
77 • Re. 74 (by UZ64 on 2007-08-28 02:59:11 GMT from United States)
"Ever dig into your registry on Windows XP? If you don't know what a registry is, and how to edit it, you should not get anywhere near Windows."
As a long-time Windows user since Win95 (around '97), I've also used Win98, 98SE, got stuck with the dreaded Me until XP finally came out, which I've used since its release until about two years ago... around when I switched to Linux. In Windows, you do not, EVER, need to mess around with the registry. Also note that "need" is a key word there. I personally avoided the registry like the plague unless I *really* wanted to do something, and to this day I can only think of maybe 5 registry modifications that I would use that don't have an alternate method to change.
So, what you said is entirely false. In fact, no one--unless they know what they're doing--should even touch the registry. That doesn't make the system any harder to set up, as there are GUI tools to modify registry settings _all over the freakin' OS_. Seriously, if you're going to try to make a point, try to at least use the OS for a few hours before trying to criticize it. I could also counter some of your other claims as BS, but I don't feel like it... and that one just really stuck out and needed corrected.
And one more thing: it's not very often these days that you run into dependency/DLL problems in Windows (they're normally bundled in the installer), so that problem in most cases is not true either.
78 • 75 • #66 and #77 (by EduardoZ (by Anonymous on 2007-08-28 03:06:22 GMT from Australia)
>75 • #66 and #77 (by EduardoZ on 2007-08-28 00:50:24 GMT from United States)
OK, fine, guys. But, that could have been posted in answer to #5 and #14, rather than #41. I'm just sayin'...<
Eduardo, # 5 & 14 are answered at here:
'....9 • RE: 5 Question/s regarding DW web log stats (by ladislav on 2007-08-27 11:15:13 GMT from Taiwan)
Could you please explain how your web log stats are derived? Do you only log each distinct visitor ip address once per day?
No, these are standard logs that any Apache web server records..."
***Web LOG STATS are NOT Unique IPs per day! You could be counted 100 times per day. Each visit is logged.separately, as I understand it.
http://distrowatch.com/awstats/awstats.DistroWatch.com.osdetail.html
DistroWatch's Page Hit Ranking (PHR) (These are counted by unique
IP address once per day):
http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity
IMO, curiosity factor can boost both, as can fanboys and the "SIMPLE and radical" culture and mentality of certain distro followers. The following is an excellent example of this culture:
"...Monkey see, Monkey do over at PCLos forums! :-)
Author Topic: 2006 Desktop Linux Market survey (Read 3433 times)
salman
2006 Desktop Linux Market survey
« on: August 23, 2006, 06:35:34 PM »
2006 Desktop Linux Market survey from desktoplinux.com: http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?id=0821200617613
GO! Vote it!
[...]
texstar
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3162
Re: 2006 Desktop Linux Market survey
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2006, 06:37:45 PM »
I voted! Grin
[....]
Linux_Fanboy
Guest
Re: 2006 Desktop Linux Market survey
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2006, 08:21:34 PM »
Quote from: texstar on August 23, 2006, 06:37:45 PM
I voted! Grin
So did I. Smiley
http://www.pclinuxos.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=58&topic=9233.msg70443#msg70443
------------------
What can you say? ...."
http://www.seopher.com/articles/why_the_distrowatch_chart_counts
79 • A couple examples of PCLosers in organised voting action: (by Anonymous on 2007-08-28 03:16:01 GMT from Australia)
"....URGENT!!!! Go ZDNet now and vote for Adrian K-H to test PCLinuxOS!!!
« on: March 05, 2007, 08:23:58 AM »
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=298
Adrian Kingsley-Hughes at ZDNet is taking a vote on what flavour of Linux he should sample. Get yourself over there NOW and vote. Do whatever it takes to make him choose PCLOS. This is a chance to get noticed. I’m sure Ubuntu users are moving the goalposts and using multiple IP addresses to force a result.
[...]
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2007, 08:31:02 AM »
PCLinuxOS is at 7%. Ubuntu is at 48%. We have a way to go in order to pass them, but we can do it, if we do the voting.
[...]
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2007, 09:44:01 AM »
I voted.
11% now.
This forum membership is 6000. we must be able to win that poll!
[....]
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2007, 02:06:08 PM »
Voted
1. Ubuntu (38%)
2. PCLinuxOS (23%)
Get voting guys.
[...]
« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2007, 11:23:44 AM »
as of this post were at #2
i got a bunch of computers so i might get away with a few more votes, but thats kinda cheating
[....]
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2007, 07:28:00 PM »
[...]
pffft...all’s fair in love and war [of distros]
[...]
http://www.pclinuxos.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=58&topic=18499.0
80 • Another point to consider (by Anonymous on 2007-08-28 03:24:19 GMT from Australia)
A number of Linux web sites and blogs will try to boost their visitor stats by playing Ubuntu fanboys against Pclos fanboys, much like they do in the next gen game console arena. We don't need to buy into this cheap manipulation tactic to boost readership, but we should demand serious journalism.
81 • MEPIS 7.0 Beta2....looking polished (by Anonymous on 2007-08-28 03:41:03 GMT from Australia)
"...When asked about the release schedule, Warren said "At this point 7.0 is on schedule. I'll be speaking at the Ohio LinuxFest in Columbus on September 29th about the process used to create a MEPIS release, with an emphasis on the decisions and tradeoffs that have to be made when recompiling and integrating from upstream sources. I'd like to have 7.0 final at that time."..."
http://www.mepis.org/node/13980
Posting from the Live CD MEPIS 7.0 Beta2:
82 • Re: #76 (by roadie on 2007-08-28 03:52:02 GMT from Canada)
Peter Besenbruch,
Excellent tip for Firefox.
Thanx,
As far as the editorial goes, I really don't have any faith in counters to judge a distro's popularity, far too easily manipulated.
I prefer to use what works for me, rather then follow "trendy" distros.
roadie
83 • Aladin cameon againg!!! (by Luis Medina on 2007-08-28 04:02:10 GMT from Mexico)
Last time I do visit DW weekly coment about my needs about tiny linux distro and now TinyMe distro its here... wow this site save my work by secod time! Thanks a LOT!
84 • Re: 5 (by hobbbitland on 2007-08-28 05:38:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi, I use Ubuntu 7.04 64bit and I run the official Firefox 2.0.0.6 and Openoffice 2.2.1 downloaded from their site. I just migrated to 64bit as now Ubuntu 64bit runs both 32bit and 64bit apps without the need for chroot.
Does that mean I also don't count towards the Ubuntu stats? I always run these apps from the offical binaries as I foudn them to be more stable and up to date.
I tried PCLinuxOS but didn't like it. I prefer ".deb" to ".rpm" packaging format. Plus I need 64bit and Chinese support.
85 • RE 69 71 Jaws and booting times. (by dbrion on 2007-08-28 06:41:26 GMT from France)
A 50% gain in booting times would be terrific if ... one spent one's time booting..... (I know linuxen who never stopped for 18 months)
Let us compute the gain if one boots every 7 hrs :20s/ 7*3600
well, well (where is the LOL).
The interest, if any, of modifying the booting way would be rather in simplifying it (a la Pardus), making maintenance easier, if neede, than making it somewhat faster, whatever the poprtion... unless one very,very often boots
A 10% gain on a running operating system could perhaps be appeciated if one has very CPU consuming tasks (format conversion in video, numerical computation -physics, stats, say-)...
86 • RE 47 SLB is too fast for any test.... (or am I too slow?) (by dbrion on 2007-08-28 07:33:31 GMT from France)
re << 47 • Super Live Boot 0.9620 (by adrian15 on 2007-08-27 16:54:10 GMT from Spain)
Can anyone try this ISO (only 3 MB) that I have made?
It is a demo of a boot options interface based on grub and super grub disk for the Konppix distro
EoQ
Could you make substancially longer timeouts/delays, not 2 seconds ones? One has not the time to understand, and one cannot write on paper what is wrong.
One cannot even _detect_ it, if any....
(for normal boot menu, I use 30 seconds timeouts; for testing/(even demos), you should be even slower.....)
87 • re:79 (by davecs on 2007-08-28 07:34:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
The moderators are now taking down this sort of post at PCLinuxOS. This policy started months ago when people here started to question the Distrowatch rankings, and has slowly evolved to include other polls, too.
If you check the forums you will see no organisation to boost our rankings here, and similar stuff for other sites is rarer and maybe older (like March 2007 in the case quoted though I will not guarantee that was the last one).
88 • DistroWatch in Europe (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-08-28 08:38:28 GMT from Italy)
Italy second as number of DistroWatch visitors? Big Wow!
And I used to believe this country was hopeless from that point of view.
89 • tiny url Answer to tiny url question (by what is gong on on 2007-08-28 09:07:44 GMT from United States)
Wrapping long links (by Peter Besenbruch on 2007-08-28 02:43:36 GMT from Germany)
For Firefox, you want the MR Tech Link Wrapper extension.
I never click on a tinyurl link anymore .
GOATSEE.ctx was on one that I clicked on once.
Yukkk never again.
90 • SmoothWall supporting net censorship (by melic on 2007-08-28 13:02:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
I find it very sad that Smoothwall has decided to sponsor the Internet Watch Foundation (Smoothwall has this info on their page), the IWF is a UK based organisation that makes lists of unsuitable internet sites, whose existance I am not going to support (racism,child porn, violent adult porn, holocaust denial sites,etc) but neither I am going to support a group that gives a "page not found" message when you try to access one of the sites on their black list which is secret and can not be appealed, at least in Saudi Arabia you have a chance to report their wrongly blocked sites.
Bad bad Smoothwall...a firewall is to protect the net not to censor it.
91 • RE: 90 (by Landor on 2007-08-28 15:10:13 GMT from Canada)
I think it's the opposite. A firewall is meant to protect a person, or persons from the Internet. This would coincide with the mission statement of a group like IWF. Which makes it quite obvious a firewall would support it, ie: protection against......
Do you own a TV or any device which has any parental controls on it?
I've heard many disputes about "Freedom" of the Internet. These people believe the Internet should not be policed, as yourself. But here's something my father would tell me frequently when I would say something about how rude/agressive police are towards the public :
What kind of world would we live in without police and laws?
I would then agree. Would you want to live in a world with no laws or police, or better yet, expose children to one like that? The internet is a part of our world and thus needs to be policed in some fashion to protect the weak and innocent.
It's like my one comment about SUSE's deal with MS, and I recently read Linus Torvalds himself said a similar thing. Business is Business. With SmoothWall, it's in line with their platform. A group developing software to protect people.
As with anything though, this is like yours isjust an opinion.
I sure hope that My, Yours, or Any other Person's Children NEVER get exposed to the filth can rampant online, and I'm glad the Open Source Community is in partnership to help prevent that for happening.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
92 • re:86 • RE 47 SLB is too fast for any test.... (or am I too slow?) (by adrian15 on 2007-08-28 16:45:26 GMT from Spain)
>>Can anyone try this ISO (only 3 MB) that I have made?
>>It is a demo of a boot options interface based on grub and >>super grub disk for the Konppix distro
>>EoQ
>Could you make substancially longer timeouts/delays, not 2 >seconds ones? One has not the time to understand, and one >cannot write on paper what is wrong.
>One cannot even _detect_ it, if any....
>(for normal boot menu, I use 30 seconds timeouts; for testing/
>(even demos), you should be even slower.....)
You are the fourth person to tell me so. I was scared about setting the normal overall timeout to even 30 seconds. There are five screens to choose... then it will be 25 seconds if we set all the timeouts to 5.
It's a so bad thing but it does not matter it's what software users want to... I will implement it.
By the way touching up or down stops the timeout...
should I prompt it somewhere maybe?
Thank you for your comments!
adrian15
93 • RE 92 Be very slow (by dbrion on 2007-08-28 17:11:27 GMT from France)
Alixe has 20 seconds timeouts on _tested_ liveCDs with grubs : it is twice the default option on HDs (10s), as starting times of CDs are not that obvious.
Testing is not a race, else you should put 0.000 seconds...
As validating by CR stops the timeout, and as most potential users (meseems) want to have some control on the time, you should put _at least_ 50 seconds per menu, that one copies it before detecting bugs..
I know that touching up/down freezes the timeout but I need time to remember (and I fear so are many users)
If you prompt it, you add more info to read/skip in an unneeded moment (the main info should be what you choose, and not how to choose)...
Sorry for cursing, but I could not even read the menus....on an old PC;;;
94 • au revoir?! (by DeniZen at 2007-08-28 19:23:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have enjoyed posting here, and I have enjoyed using many Linux Distro's over the years, probably 'too many'.
One of the great things about Linux, is there is sooo much choice.
OK, some will say 'Linux is Linux, and while thats fundamentally so, its clearly not anywhere near the whole story.
Ergo - discussions about Distributions (we could also call them 'Flavours', or 'Presentations' of Linux maybe ..)
And its the reason sites such as the excellent Distrowatch exist.
But maybe theres a caveat there ..
While I'm convinced that a well planned Debian install takes some beating, as Distro after Distro get released, with many Releases raising the bar substantially each time (some not .. !) I have found myself getting ever more drawn towards trying out and testing Distros (while keeping Debian as my main OS).
Theres nothing wrong with enjoying Linux as a hobby - of course , but it was beginning to become a little more time consuming than I could grow comfortable with.
Not 'obsessive' but maybe a bit too 'involved'.
So ... ahem .. last Friday, I bought a Mac.
So far, I'm blown away.
It, or more accurately - OS X, is superb.
I Wirelessly Networked it up with my Debian PC, and copied all my personal stuff, and as of now I guess that have only one flavour - of one OS to think about.
However .. ;)
Ås its an Intel Mac, I could not resist trying an Xubuntu Live CD ;)
The experience was perfect 'out of the box' - everything spot on with the live boot - display, Wireless - all of it was good.
Look how far Linux has come in the last couple of years.
I can only wonder at how more spectacular it will be in a couple more years.
I may be back ...
Bye for now.
Keep having fun!
D.
95 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-28 19:34:18 GMT from United States)
>> So, what you said is entirely false. In fact, no one--unless they know what they're doing--should even touch the registry. That doesn't make the system any harder to set up, as there are GUI tools to modify registry settings _all over the freakin' OS_. <<
Obviously you don't know much about malware. You know when I moved to Linux? When XP had a keystroke logger, and the only solution was to edit the registry.
Yeah, you can PAY someone, obviously. You can BUY software to do it. Do most Windows users know anything about this? No. Is that part of the OS? No. I certainly wasn't talking about setting up Windows, I was talking about using Windows. This is hardly the kind of thing I'd want my mother doing.
My point is true in spite of your Get the FUD campaign: it's easier to use Linux for the basics. The response from the MS fanbois is always the same "if you'd just do X, there would be no problems". Well, then what is the claim that Windows "just works" if you have to know all these hacks?
>> there are GUI tools to modify registry settings _all over the freakin' OS_ <<
LOL
Ever tried backing up the registry in XP Home Edition? The solution is to buy XP Professional.
>> And one more thing: it's not very often these days that you run into dependency/DLL problems in Windows (they're normally bundled in the installer), so that problem in most cases is not true either. <<
Gee, how interesting, considering that I didn't say anything about DLL's. You obviously don't know much about software conflicts on Windows.
Your response reveals quite a lot about your knowledge of Windows and the problems that Linux faces in adoption: the real problems of the OS are always believed to be problems of other users. If you use IE ten hours a week, that makes you a computer expert, and not subject to those problems.
And by the way, I've used Windows since version 2, running off of two floppy disks. I use Vista regularly. And back in the old days, I ran DOS. I've used Linux as my main OS for only two years. I think I have a little background in MS operating systems.
I responded to an individual having difficulties with Linux. I explained some problems with Windows. I don't see any reason that this is the place we should have to do the Windows vs. Linux thing.
96 • RE 77 and 95 (by KimTjik on 2007-08-28 21:09:01 GMT from Sweden)
I must say post # 77 surprised me a lot. The scenario is very far from what I professionally have to do. The registry of Windows is a real culprit, especially if changing some hardware and hence also drivers. Many companies therefore develop all sorts of "registry cleaners". The only way post # 77 could be true is to follow the too common advice: "probably a new fresh install of Windows will solve you issues".
Nevertheless the author of post # 95 is true when stating: "I don't see any reason that this is the place we should have to do the Windows vs. Linux thing". When you daily have to work with Windows issues you get fed up, so you don't really want to read some Windows vs. Linux stuff anyway. I don't imply that Linux is perfect, to the contrary it has to continuously improve. However which operating systems doesn't need to improve? Only the ones nobody is using. Personally though I appreciate Linux's features more, though somewhat limited because of how the PC market looks. I simply think it has greater potential.
It's kind of nice nowadays when people who know you come and ask for advice and help to start using Linux instead. These users are nothing more than users, so they probably won't improve DW's statistics for the time being.
97 • PCLinuxOS (by memena on 2007-08-29 02:29:18 GMT from Philippines)
It works, it's fast and it's easy, doesn't matter if it's #1 or #100. It certainly deserves a spot with the top ones, no matter what the critics say.
Been looking forward to the TinyMe version, now just have to find an old PC to test it on...
98 • RE: #8 Stats (by Anonymous on 2007-08-29 02:55:04 GMT from United States)
PCLOS 11298 Forum Members and 5600 of those joined within the last 4 months so keep talking them up here on DWW #8.
99 • Re 98.... Fedora and Ubu beat the pants off PCL when it comes to (by active online forum users! on 2007-08-29 03:32:08 GMT from Australia)
"...98 • RE: #8 Stats (by Anonymous on 2007-08-29 02:55:04 GMT from United States) PCL....11298 Forum Members and 5600 of those joined within the last 4 months so keep talking them up here on DWW #8."
I know Tex is happy about that, but you all should NOT get too excited about it, Ubuntu increased by more than 100K (Fedora by 10K).
FYI: Both Ubuntu and Fedora forums have about 100 times more visitors/users online than Pcl does. That should tell ya something! :-)
100 • No more insults please (by http://distrowatch.com/ on 2007-08-29 05:03:11 GMT from Taiwan)
Last week I deleted a bunch of posts from a reader whose only contribution came in the form of "Ubuntu must die" posts, this week, I deleted more posts because somebody thinks it's fine to call PCLinuxOS users "PCLosers".
What have I done to you guys? Can't we have at least one week when everybody is respectful and polite?
Reminder: All posts insulting users of any distribution WILL BE DELETED. If you don't like it, please find another forum.
101 • RE 97 There are lots of (seemingly) working, fast and easy things. (by dbrion on 2007-08-29 06:26:13 GMT from France)
"
It works, it's fast and it's easy, doesn't matter if it's #1 or #100. It certainly deserves a spot with the top ones, no matter what the critics say.
"
So are hundreds of linuxen... and other OSes.
The main question is not a clicli race but (among others):
* are the application they ship fully debugged? (so are White boxen, and perhaps CenOS (sorry but RH clones {one knows whence good qualiy soft come} were chosen in _reverse_ alph order and lasted without a software flaw (nor "up"grades) for at least 3 years)
* is there a quality assurance? Is it efficient, or an UBU disaster as in 20/21 August 2006?(cf DWW 166)
102 • Re: 74 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-29 12:00:53 GMT from United States)
Give me a break! Windows is so hard, oh it will never catch on will it? People can't figure out how to install software because the process is so difficult...
No wait it's very easy, you hit next until you're done. Poster #74, you can't convince people that it's difficult to install software on Windows when everyone already knows how it really works. There is no dependency hell in Windows because nearly all installers include all necessary dependencies. They never ask the user to track them down. That's why your argument is just absurd.
There has only been one time where I had to chase a dependency in Windows, and that was the ati driver, needed the .NET 2.0 framework, but wow that was solved by just running Windows update.
As for the registry-- you might think that you're a 1337 code hacker, but you're not. You shouldn't start editing your registry, just leave it alone. You'll do more harm than good.
The average user doesn't have to know anything about the guts of Windows and you know it, nor should they. Same goes for Mac. Same should go for Linux. The operating system is the ui for the computer to just work, it's supposed to be a tool for you, not the other way around.
103 • re post:100 (by Jerry on 2007-08-29 12:01:52 GMT from United States)
Why not exclude the ip of the rogue posters here in addition to the post deletion?
You did that to users of this computer (the one 4 of us use) when one of the users joked too much in here. We couldn't come here to www.distrowatch.com for a week, all because one user was inapropriate.
I think that was fair, mainly because it caused us to talk about it amongst us and come to an agreement as to forum behavior while on our common computers in this house.
Excluding the ip makes a person think when all of a sudden they can't even go to the site they were fooling around at. It also makes others who use the same computer take action to find out what's going on.
104 • Top distributions..... (by Landor on 2007-08-29 12:32:27 GMT from Canada)
"The question most people raise is "why go through all the hassle of manually installing a Linux system from scratch when you can just download an existing distribution like Debian or Redhat". That is a valid question which I hope to answer for you. The most important reason for LFS's existence is teaching people how a Linux system works internally. Building an LFS system teaches you about all that makes Linux tick, how things work together, and depend on each other. And most importantly, how to customize it to your own taste and needs."
We all talk about the best distribution that just works. It's rare we actually speak of what that distribution has contributed to Linux. The few times we do hear about it is when someone is discussing the *buntu's
I think LFS and the documentation project should also receive high praise for what they've given Linux on the whole.
I know the masses won't flock to LFS and read every bit of information they have available, and, or, roll their own. Regardless, this is a project that can give the non-developer of Linux, the common end user the step by step process of what their system is fueled by and how to start the engine.
I'm glad to see them continually improving their Distro/Documentation.
Unsung Heroes in my personal opinion...
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
105 • RE: # 103 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-08-29 12:41:09 GMT from Italy)
"As for the registry-- you might think that you're a 1337 code hacker, but you're not. You shouldn't start editing your registry, just leave it alone. You'll do more harm than good."
I disagree, and here is an example why:
Almost every time I install XP x64 my CD/DVD drives disappear.
Microsoft has a (simple) online tutorial how to solve the issue by editing the registry.
106 • Statistics (by Lutfi Yelkenci on 2007-08-29 13:56:21 GMT from Turkey)
In your statistics our country - Turkey is listed in Asian countries not in European.
But Turkey is an Europian country and is a candidate for European Uninon.
Please consider this
Thank you very much. I really appreciate Distrowatch.
107 • Linux (by Distrowatch Reader on 2007-08-29 18:28:57 GMT from United States)
Why I like Linux over Microsoft Vaporware-- GNU/Linux works and is here NOW.
First the Vaporware
Cnet spews
"Windows Server 2008, which we have been saying would Release to Manufacturing (RTM) by the end of the calendar year, is now slated to RTM in the first quarter of calendar year 2008," Microsoft said on its Windows Server blog.
As for the reasoning, the company said "while we're very happy with the feedback we're getting and the overall quality of the latest product builds, we would rather spend a little more time to meet the high quality bar that our customers and partners deserve and expect."
Then the company related the analogy that one of its program managers, Alex Hinrichs, said. "It's like a brisket," he told a colleague. "It just needs a little more time to bake."
Hopefully, Microsoft doesn't create too many vegetarians (i.e. Linux users) in the mean time.
http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-9768378-7.html
Linux
L inux.
A pache.
M y database of choice
P hp
LAMP
Freely available. Download and install now. MY CHOICE!
As for Working .
Linus Torvalds says it best ,as reported in this story by informationweek
What Would Linus Do? Torvalds Offers Lesson For Microsoft
However, I am intrigued by Torvalds' implicit point that, once an operating system is mature, you no longer need to mess with it in a major way.
While such a strategy seems extremely sound, technology wise, it would be death to companies which make their big bucks by creating a buzz around their new operating system du jour. Torvalds acknowledges this in the interview when he goes on to say: "Of course, if we had a marketing department that had a strong say, they'd make us call it some sexy name ("Panther" or "Vista" or whatever)."
I've been surprised that no one has pulled these nuggets out of the Torvalds transcript. This interview was Slashdotted a few days ago, but since then has pretty much faded off the radar screen. Perhaps it's because Linus is saying things the way he usually says them, quietly and in a non-confrontational manner.
http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2007/08/what_would_linu.html
108 • Archlinux (by dancingdog on 2007-08-29 22:48:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi Tom,
>Arch Linux is targeted at let us say a more advanced user.
So why don't they admit that and write it out in their description so us inexperienced users won't waste time and their resources downloading it?
I had used the latest Archlinux Live edition.
>I have run several live arch CD's and the network in up and running with a single command, piece of cake ...
Ok but what is the command? I tried " find the bloody connection you mothersucker" but it didn't recognise it.
109 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-29 22:59:14 GMT from Aruba)
#90: Very sad indeed, But, then again, the UK is usually the first to censor something, don't they? Must really suck to have a government constantly watching you through CCTV's and now censoring your very own Internet use as well. Ugh!
110 • RE 108 - why be in such a hurry? (by KimTjik on 2007-08-29 23:08:34 GMT from Sweden)
I don't get this: is choosing and installing an operating system such a casual rutine these days that nobody even cares to check the "About" page?
Home page states in the in blue highlighted box: "Also glance through our wiki if you want to learn more about Arch". You can't miss this advice. What is the first subject of the main page of the Wiki? Answer: under the first section "About Arch" you find the first subject "The Arch way". Further what does "The Arch way" tell you?
"By its basic nature, Arch is:
* Lightweight and simple. Note that doesn't mean it's for everyone....
* NOT designed as a newbie distro; it's intended for more experienced users. The aim is to develop Arch into as nearly a perfect base as is humanly possible. A base doesn't include fancy tools and auto configuration mechanisms, but rather contains manual configuration tools and few functions, for the users to further develop and/or learn on their own."
Isn't it common sense to make some little effort to get to know something about the distribution you might choose? Or you randomly select whatever you see among the 100 "top" distributions?
I don't want to be harsh, but the user has to show some little initiative him-/herself. Is three clicks that difficult, especially in view that the home page advice you click on the link? What other things in life do you expect to be done for you: help to get washed, dressed, prepared meals, private chauffeur?
Don't make the life harder than it already is for the developers.
111 • No subject (by Distrowatch Reader at 2007-08-30 01:29:04 GMT from United States)
We thought we had a pretty legitimate story," said McBride. Clue You need a Case not a story.
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201802921
The SCO Group will likely appeal a judge's decision to toss its ownership claim on the Unix operating system, company CEO Darl McBride said in an interview Tuesday.
"We believe this is a very appealable case," McBride said.
McBride said he believes that U.S. District Court Judge Dale Kimball missed the mark when he ruled that Novell, and not SCO, holds copyrights over the widely used computer operating system. "We thought we had a pretty legitimate story," said McBride.
Kimball ruled on Aug. 10 that a 1995 asset transfer agreement from Novell to SCO did not include Unix copyrights.
The decision eviscerated a lawsuit that SCO filed against Novell in 2004 after Novell refused to acknowledge SCO's ownership claims over Unix. The rest of the case is scheduled to be tried starting Sept. 17, but the remaining issues focus mostly on how much SCO owes Novell for Unix licensing fees the court said it improperly collected.
The fees were collected primarily from Sun Microsystems and Microsoft and total about $25 million.
.........
SCO is considering two forms of appeal, according to McBride. The company may wait until the trial is wrapped up and file a conventional appeal. Alternately, it may file what's known as an interlocutory appeal, which would ask the courts for a review of Kimball's ruling on the Unix copyright issues before the trial begins, McBride said.
The case's repercussions extend beyond Unix. SCO has argued that the open source operating system Linux contains parts of Unix and that SCO therefore is entitled to royalties from Linux users.
Thank You SUN.
McBride could not have done this without your help.
112 • Do ROBOTS dream (by Anonymous on 2007-08-30 01:33:02 GMT from Canada)
Re #110
Boolean or bad algos ?
Casual is as casual does
Didn't "casual" get misinterpreted in last weeks topics?
The basics of your summation are correct
But did not account for the concepts between "progamming" of logic
Casual-TIES: are logistics:
Computer logic is pre-progammed boolean
Loosely modeled to emulate human thought process
Human logic is predicated on emotive response,
common-sense is a simplistic term - often an oxy-moron
Behavioral patterns in humans is less governed by practicalities
than a means to fill emotive need in least effort to accomplish
Energy efficient, stress relief perhaps - conceptual best does not correlate to principled logic
Unrealistic desires - may be ~ If original precept flawed.
"It's not what you look at that matters
It is what is SEEN"
If the view is restricted look inwards.
Virtually > Do AI robots dream - spurious stray magnetic fields , yes
Creative thought no
Who then the dreamer but yet the dream unattained
Linus had a dream - and shared
It was not in black and white
I wish I could have that imagination - not disect what is the true colours
113 • 110 • RE 108 - why be in such a hurry? (by KimTjik) (by Fractalguy on 2007-08-30 04:45:12 GMT from United States)
OK, I looked at The Arch Way...
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/TheArchWay
and I don't see your three clicks. Maybe you were thinking of this
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Special:Random
three times? LOL.
I must say I was a little put off by the "single command, piece of cake" remark. But I'd point to http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginner%27s_Guide, or http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Official_Arch_Linux_Install_Guide or the newbie forum http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewforum.php?id=23 or maybe a specific link.
But saying "help to get washed, dressed, prepared meals, private chauffeur?" is a little over the edge, eh? I've always read that Debian is hard and the devs are rude etc. But then I decided to try it and try SID while I was at it. sidux turned out to be easy enough for me to get running - with just a little help from the IRC chats. Never saw anyone being outright rude there even after lurking for several days as sidux387 or some such number. But that was true for most I've played with (elive, mint, puppy, pclos, k/ubuntu, knoppix, etc.).
That said, getting onto the Internet is one of the problems many have, especially when that is where the help often is. A good idea is having the manual on the CD where it can be studied while attempting to connect and install. Again, sidux is a good example of that, IMO.
P.S. I have not tried Arch. It doesn't appear to be a live CD which is the class of distros I'm currently looking into. This week I'm running Linux Mint 3.0-Xfce4. Uptime: 4 days, a recent record with my flakey hardware. Last week it was NicEDesktop-1.0.
114 • re Post (by Bernard on 2007-08-30 05:56:08 GMT from Australia)
You are so wrong when you compare Linux to Windoze. I'm sending this using PCLinuxOS 2007 which has so very much more to offer and from which to choose than Windows. As splash screen says,"Radically Simple". Firefoxis already installed on the live CD. Thunderbird can be installed from the repository with a couple of clicks as can Frostwire (a deluxe version of Limewire) plus a few thousand other programs all of which are free. All those software programs you seek will have their equivalent in the repository. You can print a user guide and even a monthly magazine that is issued to help newbies and others.Your hardware should be automatically be recognised and installed and the user forum is a very friendly and helpful resource when needed. You will have little or no worries about viruses or malware nor have to bother with inserting software installation and driver CDs. I have tried and used quite a few different distros since first using a computer a few years ago and find PCLinuxOS the absolute tops for people like you and me. I'm 75yrs old and enjoying it!
115 • Re post 114 (by Bernard on 2007-08-30 05:59:43 GMT from Australia)
My post 114 should have referred to post 56 by Colin Davidson.
116 • re Post 74 (by Bernard on 2007-08-30 06:33:38 GMT from Australia)
Have just read your comments and absolutely agree with all you have said. If David feels that because of his age he is among a minority using Linux who've had no formal computer training, I think he's mistaken. I would venture to suggest that none of we oldies have had that luxury nor most of the younger (not youngest) set. We teach ourselves with 10% reading and 90% application.
Rock on PCLOS, rock on Linux!
117 • RE 7, 108 : Indecent wines (by dbrion on 2007-08-30 07:25:48 GMT from France)
"I reported it on their forum (from XP) only to be advised to contact their "Live Help" who would talk me through the settings. Are these people clowns? If the "toy" won't connect to the internet, how can you connect to Live Help from it?
"
These people are not clowns: they _give_ you part of their time and of their knowledge (and my boss pays for the same work, coming from Microsoft and Red Hat _ both supports are expensive)...
BTW, with some reading, one can avoid fora, supports, etc in 99% of the case (and the support pple know it)=> Be your own help, learn to read...
118 • RE 113 - an attempt to clearify (by KimTjik on 2007-08-30 08:32:14 GMT from Sweden)
Three clicks if you count "home page":
1.) http://www.archlinux.org/ --> follow the advice given to get more information in the Wiki (link already there)
2.) http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Main_Page --> choose first subject
3.) http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/The_Arch_Way --> wow! here you have the quotation included in my post
Yes I use Arch, but I also use other distributions. Note though that my response to the complaint by a user doesn't exclusively refer to Arch; on the contrary the user must show some responsibility whatever distribution he/she chooses to use.
OK, we can get upset sometimes for various reasons, but we should be able expect some reasonable limits of these complaints. dbrion is correct when saying that the people in question "give_ you part of their time and of their knowledge (and my boss pays for the same work, coming from Microsoft and Red Hat _ both supports are expensive)..."; in that sense we're all in dept to them.
No I don't think the examples were over the edge in comparison to have called the folks trying to help "clowns", and also in view of maintainers of Arch really have put effort in making clear what to expect, both pros and cons, from the distribution. Yes it might hurt to get those facts thrown at your face, but doesn't that partly depend on how much you've made it personal? With a healthy dose of humbleness you don't put yourself in such a difficult position in the first place by calling helpful people "clowns" or accuse them of not doing what they've actually done.
119 • The Buck Stops Here (by Landor on 2007-08-30 15:45:19 GMT from Canada)
I remember way way back when there were just a few of us in each city running it's very first BBS' and a part of FidoNet. Life was good then. A few hobbyist types trying to expand telecommunication and opening up the world to freeware and shareware, from our homes freely.
Not long after it expanded exponentially and these hobbyist systems we ran were flooded by more and more "members", and more and more new BBS'. It soon became apparent that we were expected to help and help we did. We'd offer our services graciously during whatever spare time we had, some even went above and beyond. There were many times though that far too many complained. Far too many EXPECTED that we should be at their beckon call. We should answer all questions immediately. We should make all things apparent so they had to do little else but type ( or click eventually) at the barest minimum and woe to the SysOp that did not. Even FidoNet had become like this.
Why am I talking about this? Expectations.
It's easy to forget, though it should not be, that people who are offering something free, people who are giving of their time (sweat/troubles/expertise/energe=LIFE) deserve the respect of all. To not be EXPECTED to bow to the Omnipotent User. But to be there to guide in some manner as they can "WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS".
A good point regarding this is when anyone goes to a project page and looks at the FAQ or some section about Getting Help. It's always stated heavily that the person should try to exhaust ALL avenues first before going to the IRC or Forums and asking a question that may or may not have been answered a 1000 times before.
If one gets asked a question and they fire off a quick question regarding it which seems absurd, does anyone know what is going on with their life? Do they know if maybe they're feeding their newborn while typing? Do they know if they are answering e-mail/private messages from 30 other people with similar requests? Do they know if they are at work and have a million other things to think about as well, while trying to "help" people regardless of their constraints?
My parents always told me that people will generally be willing to help people who help themselves. I believe this. Some people EXPECT everything to be the way they want it to be. The sad thing is they don't do a lot to help themselves. Eventually people stop helping them, or even aknowledging them.
Respect the people "FREELY" giving to you. You're taking up a part of their life without returning anything, that in itself, if nothing else, is a gift deserving of respect.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
120 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-30 16:57:00 GMT from Hungary)
Nobody commented the Europe statics from Hungary? I'm suprized!
But it's good to see the growth of the readers from the entire Europe!
121 • 119 • 7 • Archlinux-live (by dancingdog777) ((Or is it Arklinux-live?)) (by Fractalguy on 2007-08-30 18:36:41 GMT from United States)
I tried Arklinux-live when it appeared two weeks ago. I just checked my notes on it and my response was not unlike #7.
quote: 1024x768, no Internet, kded crash (signal 11) crash on reboot.
Why are we talking about Arch in regard to what might be this Ark distro? The web sites are not the same and I don't think the distros are the same. If #7 isn't really talking about Arklinux, does someone have a link to Archlinux-live? Is it Archie, that is 2+ years old?!?
http://www.archlinux.org/ http://www.arklinux.org/ http://user-contributions.org/archie.html
Anyways, if someone recommended the Live Help to talk one through the internet settings, I'd say they might be a clown, as my dad would say when being polite. #7 looks at help while on Windows and I assume he then boots the live CD. If this is Arklinux, then according to their FAQ, the net should have connected automatically (for broadband cable or through a router) like I have, and BTW, Ark failed to connect for me, as it should have.
So which is it? Ark or Arch or Archie?
122 • re 121 (by dancingdog on 2007-08-30 19:46:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
My apologies Fractalguy, it was Ark not Arch. What you reported in your notebook is exactly what I found when I tried Arklinux-live.
> quote: 1024x768, no Internet, kded crash (signal 11) crash on reboot.
Do my detractors above still insist it's a well thought out distro and not a toy? When the author released it, didn't he test it first? Obviously not or he would have discovered it was a non-runner! If he can't be bothered to test it what's the point of my wading through pages of waffle first. If you want to buy a certain make of car, do you read through all the Haynes manuals before you test drive it? Of course you don't!
123 • Ark, Arch, Archie... (by KimTjik on 2007-08-30 21:09:40 GMT from Sweden)
OK, I drop it! It became more humorous than expected. Sorry for that "dancingdog", but since you insisted on it being Arch it didn't make sense. Your detractors won't comment it further, because there's nothing to comment.
We all make mistakes. However it's still good read every letter! I hope you did post in the right forum though.
124 • 122 • re 121 (by dancingdog) (by Fractalguy on 2007-08-30 21:47:31 GMT from United States)
dancingdog, OK, so everyone at Arch, we're cool now. Only problem is name collision. :( When I tested Ark and from what I saw, I didn't think it was worth posting about here. Definitely a toy. But then I like toys, at least those that work. :)
My favorite toy above all has to be dsl, because it has so much packed into so little space. I like it even better than puppy which takes a few steps to get connected and the video up. If I were to ask a friend if I could check something on the net "I won't bother your system" and using a live CD, well it better be quick and it better work. Especially, since it would be a machine I had not seen before, I don't want to debug video, sound and net. And if dsl works and they are watching, well then I get to hear that "Wow, how did you do that?" And from my stack of dsl releases, I don't think there is a single one that doesn't work.
Now some live cds boot up faster than others and I like them fast. I've been booting live a lot lately (my HD distro upgrade was trashed - likely my migraine hardware problem again). I'll have to go back and check, but I thought sidux was very fast. If this Mint-Xfce will ever crash, I'll start looking again. :) (BTW, Mint live uptime now in 5th day, running over a different HD (for swap), so that might be it.) I have Damn Small Linux 4.0 RC2 all burned and ready to try. :)
I'm expecting sidux-xfce to be a very snappy distro, lean and fast because the devs are eshewing all KDE and GNOME. (My desktop of choice is KDE.) You can read the excellent sidux manual http://manual.sidux.com/en/welcome-en.htm which is on their live cd.
BTW, I just read this http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/29/gnome-mono-plan/ and I notice a lot of mono stuff here in Mint-Xfce. I feel like I have cooties. :) And that name "mono", what were they thinking?
125 • re 93 (by adrian15 on 2007-08-31 18:36:20 GMT from Spain)
>Alixe has 20 seconds timeouts on _tested_ liveCDs with grubs : it is >twice the default option on HDs (10s), as starting times of CDs are not >that obvious.
Thanks for the info.
>Testing is not a race, else you should put 0.000 seconds...
You are right. The reason why I put 2 seconds in the first menu is that at the first time there were only 2 options SGD and knoppix.
>As validating by CR stops the timeout, and as most potential users >(meseems) want to have some control on the time, you should put _at >least_ 50 seconds per menu, that one copies it before detecting >bugs..
50 seconds! Sorry this is too much long in my opnnion.
>I know that touching up/down freezes the timeout but I need time to >remember (and I fear so are many users)
Good point.
>If you prompt it, you add more info to read/skip in an unneeded >moment (the main info should be what you choose, and not how to >choose)...
Another good point.
>Sorry for cursing, but I could not even read the menus....on an old
>PC;;;
This was my fault.
===========
You can try Super Live Boot 0.9621 version which has 12 seconds on the first timeout and 7 seconds in the rest of them (4 other menues).
Here there are the urls (for the 2 mirrors).
http://sgd.howto-linux.de/download/sgd_plus_knoppix_beta/knoppix_5.1.1_plus_sgd_0.9621_demo.iso
http://sgd.benjamin-butschko.de/download/sgd_plus_knoppix_beta/knoppix_5.1.1_plus_sgd_0.9621_demo.iso
Hope that you can have a successful test right now and a no so fast one. ;)
adrian15
126 • re 125 (by alisou on 2007-08-31 18:52:59 GMT from Canada)
Hi,
AliXe do not use grub. The boot loader is isolinux with vesamenu.
:-)
127 • Linux default resolutions (by 20/20 vision on 2007-08-31 22:16:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
Maybe I'm getting too old for modern things like Linux, but why is it that when you do an install of XP or Vista or even one of the older flavours, you can always read the screen and screen instructions, whereas in Linux the default resolution needs a microscope to read it? Are the authors so stupid that they can't comprehend this?
128 • RE 126 I had Alixe in mind, because the timeouts seem convenient (by dbrion on 2007-09-01 08:49:54 GMT from France)
for a _working_ liveCD (and a very good one IMO).
The point was not about the boot loader (or its options) but the timing : I noticed that Alixe put slower timeouts than default options on a hard disk, and I think it is justified, because :
a) one may have ones PCs put in a strange place, where inserting CDs is not that evident (and finding ones chair and sitting is not, too!!!)
b) when one boots, one is often concentrated on what one haas done, or on what one has to do=> very slow (infinite) boot timeouts can give the potential user time to decide without too many errors....
129 • RE 125 : Booting is not a video game.... (by dbrion on 2007-09-01 09:12:34 GMT from France)
As one is not concentrated when one boots, one should have time no to do too many stupid choices....
The timeouts are used in order to, if the PCs owner is absent, and the Pc restarts, one can get a standard default one => only ONE timeout, at the very beginning, is useful.
I had put 50 seconds as the lowest timeout one could tolerate if one wants to test/ admirate/ show to friends (while talking).....
Normally, the ideal timeouts _for routine use_ would be 30 seconds (below this delay, I can make mistakes...) for the _first_ timeout, which is aimed to detect the presence of an user (who comes from another task, and might be unconcentrated or _incl_ slow), and infinite after that (the user is present, alive and conscious!)....
For testing, they should be longer (at last for the first timeout!!!)
BTW have you thought of adding RAM test (from short time records, Alixe and Mandriva 2008beta have/will have)? From last week's DWW, it seems useful....
I ll try to test your bootloader tomorrow (to day, I cannot)...
130 • RE 127 : It is not Linux'fault, it is the sexy trendy future..... (by dbrion on 2007-09-01 09:30:32 GMT from France)
" whereas in Linux the default resolution needs a microscope to read it? Are the authors so stupid that they can't comprehend this?
"
Meseems it is not an intellectual issue, but it is because the authors are young... This leads to horrible blunders, even when readable ( Elive and edUBU started with a menu giving the choice of languages: it is/was a very tiny nice menu, and the first word (Arabic) was written _the yaw gnorw_ (at least, I can read the names of streets among other useful things in Arabic writing countries.....)
3 years ago, WhiteBox and Mandriva (at least) had a text - based installation, which was not so tiny.... but now, it has become trendy to make complicated menus, which may be hard to read....
131 • re 130 (by 20/20 vision on 2007-09-01 13:14:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thanks, it's fashion to blame. OK.
It's fashionable also with the young to have your bum hanging outside of your trousers.
I really thought that a distro was made to be used, but it's just a fashion statement.
132 • RE 131 I fear these are not anatomical/intellectual issues... (by dbrion on 2007-09-01 14:18:13 GMT from France)
"It's fashionable also with the young to have your bum hanging outside of your trousers."
There are young women, too, who make/contribute to/advise distros. 20 years ago, women were more serious with everything linked with ergonomy : I could manage with color blind pple (I printed my drawings on a cheap Black/White printer), but they could manage with pple getting old and suggest senseful corrections for GUIs(which I could not figure out).
"I really thought that a distro was made to be used, but it's just a fashion statement"
Some are just a marketing tool, but I think WhiteBox, perhaps CentOS (never tested, as it seems redundant with WB) , KateOS (text based install) and Skolelinux (very simple and easy to install, but I do not remember the size of the chars, nor the presence of a text-based install) can be installed with a bad sight without too ennoying problems. The ideal way would be to have a speech synthetiser during install (unless one is deaf, too)...
133 • Amiga and Windows (by Jerry on 2007-09-01 15:05:25 GMT from United States)
I googled "amiga" and way down the list of links was a "talkback" forum at ZDNet discussion about what Linux has to do to get more popular than Windows:
Windows got into the home because of the CARTEL in distribution.
With their illegally obtained lock on the OEM distribution channels built with exclusionary distribution contracts starting with MSDOS, Microsoft locked other OSes out of the primary distribution channel. They even went so far as to incorrectly inform buyers of other manufacturers' software that it was not supported and might cause problems for their system.
If you are not old enough to remember, Microsoft trashed Amiga because the Amiga "was just a game machine." Yeh! a fully multitasking, multithreaded, game machine that could run (with the aid of "bridgecards") Microsoft and Apple software.
Posted by: Update victim Posted on: 06/20/07
But who in the Linux world of distro making and distributing would have the power, or even the inclination, to behave as Gates & company have? Is Linux forever doomed to the fringes of computing in terms of % of user share?
134 • Ballot stuffing (by Frank on 2007-09-01 16:27:00 GMT from United States)
The numbers could very well indicate lots of visits by PCLOSers attempting to "stuff the ballot box". The end justifies the means, eh boys? ;-)
135 • RE 133 - does % mean anything? (by KimTjik on 2007-09-01 16:40:56 GMT from Sweden)
Even though being a kid at the time, hardly understanding anything in the computer world, yes I remember when MS swept most competition out of the market, while UNIX didn't grasp what the PC market would mean in the near future. Man is greedy so he'll do nearly whatever he's/she's allowed to do. Labor was treated as a replaceable machine some centuries ago (and in some countries still is), hence I don't think we really want Linux to behave in the same "traditional" way of how business usually is managed.
Personally I don't care so much for statistics, because I've seen Linux and BSD make huge steps of progress for PC desktop-systems in some few years. If Linux continuous to progress in the same manner, though having a comparably small share of the market, I can't see any reason to worry.
Wouldn't a better user share lead to better hardware support? OK, it can be tricky at times, but even in this aspect it's a pretty smooth ride nowadays. With little effort we quite easily can pick solid devices with good performance for Linux; and when we choose one brand over the other why not send a note to the latter about why we didn't choose them? We get what works at the moment, as well as making manufacturers more conscious about how they loose potential customers. Thus it could be good if Linux gained a greater part of the market, since 10 % already means a lot of money, and would eventually put some more pressure on manufacturers.
Besides these points I don't see user share as something to worry about. Linux isn't perfect, but it still is for many of us the better choice, and it's a lot more fun to work with when there's few limits to how you can modify it to become whatever you want it to be.
136 • re 134 (by Frank on 2007-09-02 00:30:07 GMT from Australia)
>134 • Ballot stuffing (by Frank on 2007-09-01 16:27:00 GMT from United States)
The numbers could very well indicate lots of visits by PCLOSers attempting to "stuff the ballot box". The end justifies the means, eh boys? ;-)<
It might also have something to do with Google and how it displays "Sitelinks" (sub-links displayed under search term results for "Distro"," Distrowatch", etc. There is always a tendency to click on something that you have not heard of before and appears right under the link of "Major Distros".
Other fact that you should be aware of is that the OS Stats in the logs are based on HITS and not unique visitors, visits, nor even page views. Thus if you reload the index page several times in order to see if "are we there yet" on the PHR table for the various periods, as PCLOS and UBuntu Fanboys are likely to do, you will make as many hits as there images and other files that generate them.
Thus we should be aware that a visit to the index page might generate 20 + hits whilst a vist to another info page could generate 1 or much less than 20 hits.
Links for further reference:
http://distrowatch.com/awstats/awstats.DistroWatch.com.alldomains.html
http://distrowatch.com/awstats/awstats.DistroWatch.com.osdetail.html
http://distrowatch.com/awstats/awstats.DistroWatch.com.html
Food for thought
137 • RE:127 (by Landor on 2007-09-02 14:18:49 GMT from Canada)
We're really hoofin' the crap out of people generously giving freely to others with little to no expectations other than they hope they enjoy it/find it useful. I wonder how many spoutin' have ever even contributed to a project.
With that said, I do have one question. Did you ever go and try to explain your concerns over font size for a live cd to any developer of said project?
I'm pretty sure I know that answer...
From my preference for a larger resolution, smaller and crisper font style. I can say that my reasoning is to be able to consume more information that is in front of me while having to scroll less. Also with higher resolutions, smaller size, the beauty of the fonts are unmistakable. Two sound reasons why I can see developers opting for this in a more general term.
But let's just go with them just being stupid, it's easier that way.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
138 • RE 125 (and cor 129) (by dbrion on 2007-09-02 15:24:12 GMT from France)
I retested your bootloader, and, once duly warned, and once you had longer timeouts , could walk through the menus without noticing any flaw.
However, since it is intented for repairing, I think pple who try to repair are nervous enough not to race against time => the idea of having a text-mode is a good idea, as one doen not know whether there remains a graphic card (and graphic menus are more difficult to read for old people), but short timeouts can add stress/frustration (20 yrs ago, it took months to have not too antiergonomic GUIs, text UIs were a little easier to get accepted)....
Else, your sophisticated bootloader seems interesting/good (and I discovered Knoppix could handle Braille, but I did not know there was supported hardware)..
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