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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Always a Joy. (by Kensai on 2007-08-20 11:13:23 GMT from Puerto Rico)
I just woke up and came directly to distrowatch to read the latest news. I think this replaces a cup of coffee for me :) .
2 • On Gentoo (by Naresh V on 2007-08-20 11:16:15 GMT from India)
I was a Gentoo user for about two and half years and recently realised that it's taking away way too much time. Installed Debian on another partition three weeks ago and was pleased to find the amd64 port in a much better shape than it used to be in.
3 • oh great more gentoo bashing (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 11:25:11 GMT from United States)
What is wrong with distrowatch? How many times in a row do they have to slam Gentoo? Is it personal? Did one of the devs sleep with Ladislav's wife or something?
That review was nothing but whining about USE flags. If you can't decide to use your USE flags locally or globally-- to just get one package to compile it doesn't matter. Globally setting your USE flags is something that you do before you start emerging packages. Else you would have to rebuild world everytime you changed make.conf. The global settings represent options that you want every package to either use or not use. Local flags are just for that package. It's just that simple.
It doesn't take weeks or months to learn USE flags, I just explained it in one paragraph. It takes less than a page of reading to understand everything you need to know about portage. It takes less effort to RTFM than it must have taken to write that ill-informed article. That belonged on a forum for newbies and not as a DW article.
4 • NimbleX (by DistRogue on 2007-08-20 11:26:51 GMT from Spain)
This really is a breakthrough. Not even SLAX is that tiny, even if you rip out the dev, office, and KDE-apps modules. How did they do it?
Imagine a Live USB made from this thing. :o
5 • About Gentoo... (by Caraibes on 2007-08-20 11:35:17 GMT from Dominican Republic)
-Has Gentoo gone too far in making itself powerful?
-Yes, that's what it seems according to most... I never had enough courage to try it, so I have to rely on other users review (such as yours, Ladislav....)
-Has its complexity discouraged you from running it?
-Yes, it did... I'd rather stick with the K.I.S.S. philosophy, even if not being a Slacker (I run Fedora & Debian)...
-If you run Gentoo Linux on your desktop, can you truly say that you know all there is to know about it?
-I never felt like running Gentoo. I am sticking with either Deb's or Rpm's distros, because they seem to be more simple and user friendly...
-Has the famous Gentoo documentation ever let you down? Or do you enjoy its power so much that you would never consider another distribution?
-If I had more time on my hands, I would have tried to install and run a Gentoo box... But I just can't spend all that time to re-learn yet another system, while Deb's & Rpm's distros give me entire satisfaction.
No offense to the Gentoo folks, as the FLOSS communities are diverse. But spending a whole week-end to set up a Linux box doesn't appeal to me. I can spend a couple of hours to setup a Fedora or Debian system completely adapted to my needs, with accounts for different members of the family, in different languages.
Now, on the other end, if there was a new system who prove to be much better, I wouldn't mind learning it, but it doesn't seem to be Gentoo's case...
6 • sabayon/ gentoo (by wegface on 2007-08-20 11:40:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
So a emerge world in sabayon broke things after 4 months of no upgrades? Of course it did! Try doing the same command on sabayon when its only a few days old- and it will still probably break badly enough to not boot or be unusable. Try the same on plain old gentoo and things MIGHT work better.... but then again maybe not. After all that compiling is the system much faster than binary distros? Probably not!
7 • Hurray for Swecha ! (by abez on 2007-08-20 11:44:21 GMT from India)
I'm glad to see Swecha finally make it to the currently active distributions.
I used it about an year back while I was still distro-hopping and while it was usable, it still was a bit unstable.
Hoping the new version will make it onto all Telugu-speaking people laptops including my Grandpa's.
I for one will still be on Slackware 12.0, while trying to get my sister to try Mandriva/Ubuntu
8 • Qu Why DW readers figures are given in absolute numbers? (by dbrion on 2007-08-20 11:49:55 GMT from France)
Last year, they also were given, if I have a good memory, in relative numbers (i.e devided by the number of PCs in the country of interest). Although this was bashed (dividing by zero in Monaco, say), this was an interesting indicator of the progression (in algebraic value) of Linux in middle sized or big countries.
For example, if Nepal and Cote d'Ivoire have seen a great increase of DW visits, I do not know whether (the hope of) end of civil wars led pple in buying new PCs, and in selecting which OS to put in, or these civil wars made pple poorer (or more linux friendly; by which mecanism?); this is not the same mecanism.
I know that it is boring doing the same calculationss and presentations every year, but I do not know where one can find links to stats about installed PCs to do the calculations (divisions..) by oneself....
9 • Sabayon (by Snowman on 2007-08-20 11:58:17 GMT from United States)
I've been using Sabayon for nearly a year now and find it very good. I've done the world update on a couple occasions and had no ill side effects. Of course, there are always some packages that refuse to update, but I can either update them manually or remove them.
One good thing is that Gentoo has the most documentation than any other distro I've used so answers are usually easy to find.
10 • Never managed to install gentoo... (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 11:58:18 GMT from Finland)
I've tried to install gentoo a couple of times but the task of selecting all those USE flags was the final stumbling block that made me think installing gentoo might not be worth the effort, after all. There are a LOT of those USE flags to select from, and the gentoo installation procedure expects that you select your USE flags already during the installation of the base system. This means that you're expected to know already what applications you're going to install. And, apparently, changing your mind and installing some other applications instead means that you need to select different USE flags and then recompile your whole system. Sounds awfully counter-intuitive to me.
So I ended up installing sourcemage gnu/linux instead. Sourcemage asks a bunch of questions about optional dependencies before installing each package, and then it remembers your selections the next time you upgrade the installed packages. I find this much more intuitive than playing with USE flags. Another advantage(?) is that sourcemage makes only very few distro-specific modifications to the installed applications. There's a wiki page that explains the differences between gentoo and sourcemage better than I can:
http://wiki.sourcemage.org/FAQ/Gentoo/Philosophical
Gentoo has great documentation, many developers, plenty of packages, active user community and busy forums. In all these respects it beats sourcemage. But I still much prefer sourcemage because gentoo requires selecting those damn USE flags. And, besides, sourcemage is a well-maintained distro with very up-to-date software, it has all the applications I need, and my friend Google has so far provided answers to all my Linux-related problems. In short, you can keep your gentoo because I've found another distro that's better for my specific needs. ;-)
11 • Gentoo can be time consuming, but... (by Deathspawner on 2007-08-20 12:06:45 GMT from Canada)
As much as I love SabayonLinux and recommend people to it often, it's not wise to update your complete system with it. Even the devs admit this. You can install a fresh copy (days after release) and see that over 200 - 300 packages need updating. That will only take far too much time and also tend to break things, if you don't run into problems right off the bat (such as blocked packages). I think the idea is to use Portage just for one-offs, and then upgrade the full system with a new release.
I've been a full-time Gentoo user for well over a year now, and one thing I found out is that when you build the system from the ground up, you can easily become spoiled by the immense control over your system It doesn't -really- have to be too difficult, if you choose a whack of USE flags and understand the basics of Portage. After a while, upgrading the system becomes a breeze. I like the fact that packages are not marked stable until they are deemed stable, but also have the option to easily install bleeding-edge versions if I wanted to. It's a very customizable distro.
As far as USE flags are concerned, I normally link new Gentoo users to this un-official website: http://gentoo-portage.com/ You can search for the application you want to install and see the entire list of USE flags that can be used. An alternative would be to peek inside the respective .ebuild file for the application you want to install. This would have helped out in the Apache installation that you referred to.
Gentoo is time consuming... for the first while. Once you understand it better, it can actually save quite a bit of time.
12 • Very good interview with Linus (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 12:13:45 GMT from Australia)
LinusTorvalds: I Have Never Really Talked To Microsoft!
Did Microsoft’s Men In Black ever met Linus Torvalds? But why is he so critical of GPLv3? Why does he slam Subversion? What would happen to the kernel development if he chooses to do something else more important? These are some of the questions Linux/open source community from around the globe wanted to ask Linus. And, here is Linus candid and blunt, and at times diplomatic, answering your questions. Check if the question you wanted to ask to the father of Linux is here and what does he have to say...
By: Swapnil Bhartiya, assistant editor, EFYTimes.com
[....]
http://www.efytimes.com/archive/144/news.htm
13 • No subject (by Cioran on 2007-08-20 12:18:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
It'd be a mistake for Sabayon users to conclude that just because applications can be upgraded from the Gentoo repositories that updating against the latest set of GLSAs affords the same degree of safety from security vulnerabilities as it would a Gentoo user.
Sabayon's custom overlay isn't scrutinized for vulnerabilities to anything like the same degree, as the Sabayon developers readily admit: http://forum.sabayonlinux.org/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=8050&p=46677
However, it's not quite true to say that small-scale hobbyist distros aren't conscientious about providing security updates. Despite the pressure of maintaining thousands of packages Frugalware, for instance, provides generally timely updates for both its -Current and -Stable branches: http://darcs.frugalware.org/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=frugalware-stable;a=shortlog
14 • LT: "some of the shrill reactions on the Internet have been a bit over the top." (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 12:45:46 GMT from Australia)
Q: What do you think about Microsoft's efforts to sign cross-licensing deals with Linux distros like Novell, Xandros and Linspire? How is this going to affect the development of the kernel?
Linus: I don't really have a hugely strong opinion on it. Business is business, and I don't get involved with it; I worry about the technology. Yes, software patents are certainly worrisome, but I also tend to think that people just overreact a bit whenever MS is involved, and that some of the shrill reactions on the Internet have been a bit over the top.
Let's see what happens.
http://www.efytimes.com/archive/146/news.htm
15 • Gentoo (by nightflier on 2007-08-20 12:57:04 GMT from United States)
A beautiful thing about FLOSS is that if you want to develop a distro for hardcore enthusiasts, you can do it. Diversity is good. Gentoo is free to follow it's own path. It will find it's place.
16 • Gentoo (by areuareu on 2007-08-20 13:11:41 GMT from France)
I have been using Gentoo as my primary distribution for some years now (beginning with 1.4).
It has been the first stable 64 bit distribution at hand (at that time Kubuntu 64 crashed enough to be unusable), the first one to provide a native 64 bits openoffice, it can be run on very old machines, provided you have a powerful one to compile, it is and remains sufficiently up to date, you don't have to wait ages for an update, as with Debian. You can do whatever stupid idea comes to your mind with portage and its configuration files. It is, whith Debian, one of the few distribution you don't need to reinstall to update. The forums are helpful, the sum of knowledge you can find there is unmatched on any forum. Some cons: portage is slow on old machines, from time to time there are spectacular breakages, the last one being with libexpat, the overall maintenance time is by far superior to what you need with Debian (active maintenance, typing commands, editing files, ...excluding compile time).
I don't agree with you, Ladislav, when you say that what you learn with Gentoo is distribution specific, you learn a lot of non distribution specific stuff, and on top of that you really understand what is a distribution, how to make one, all the inner gears you can completely ignore with binary only distributions.
Re #3: I don't see this article as Gentoo bashing. Just the contrary, this is the first article which gives a real account, based on actual use, not forum gossips. Where is the bias?
17 • Sabayon updates (by davemc on 2007-08-20 13:12:09 GMT from United States)
While it is indeed true that doing updates in Sabayon can be quite the uphill climb for the new users, it is completely false to think that it cannot be done, or that their overlay is flawed. The fact that lxnay does releases every few weeks means that you dont have to worry about updates because you can just upgrade from the livedvd, and this is recommended because there usually are major revisions between each release. For example, you will almost never find the same kernel and never the same patchset, different features (entropy, newest kde), different package sets (virtualbox, smplayer, wine-doors, etc) just from the latest release alone. So, simply doing an upgrade from an older release wont get you those new features unless you go in and change flags and know what to look for, and then know how to compile those things. Now on to Gentoo..
As has been reported, D. Robbins has posted some interesting stuff about it, and has also posted some very interesting comments about Sabayon. There could be something to that, we all hope. Gentoo desperately needs leadership with revolutionary vision of the kind he can/will bring if given a real leadership role. That distro has gone down a very specific path, catering to a very small subset of the Linux community and seemingly spent all its time catering to them, rather than to the Linux and larger world of users. Its a large cadre of developers suffering from the worst kind of tunnel vision, and thus, they rapidly fall on the charts while Sabayon continues its upward momentum.
Ladislav rightly points out a few of Gentoo's many-fold flaws and receives nothing but criticism from that same tunnel-vision impaired community also hinting at nepotism and an inability to adapt from the Gentoo community. If one cannot be open and dead honest about your chosen distro, it will be destined for the garbage heap sooner or later. This would be tragic, as most would agree, however, unless the Gentoo community at large -- Developers AND userbase quickly change thier mindset and start listening to those niggling complaints from the larger Linux land, Gentoo will only continue to die the slow and painful death.
All is not totally lost however, as Sabayon has proven, if, as a Gentoo Developer, you can learn to break the Gentoo tunnel-vision and learn to think in revolutionary ways, you can breathe new life back into it and turn it around.
18 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 13:12:18 GMT from Canada)
Ahh, more subjective opinions - once more on systems not even used ?
The reviewer broke two cardinal rules -
Never upgrade until the need is proven
Never upgrade entire system at once (did he really presume eveything was insecure ?
Or reads kernel change logs or dedicated security site reports ?
Gentoo can be as simple as any others - or as intricate & powerful as desired
Unlike binary based platforms everything is left to discretion of the user
UNLIKE GUI wizards "click & hope" it's up to the user to just read & apply
If he/she can read there is little NOT supremely well documented
The forum can supply solutions to most all else.
Use flags - can be left alone - using the defaults of each E-build
They are for any degree (or lack of) fine-grained customizations - of mix-match dependencies
The system has unique folders - but they are needed for Portage & sytemn tracking
of all installed, changes etc.
Where did the concept of "speed" arise - there ARE performance gains
But it is the degree of control & assurance it runs on YOUR system
is the benefits to any sources based system
A "side blessing" NO more (new) installs since there is NO O/System "versions
Later releases yes - incorporating the same changes available in newer E-builds
The SAME manner in which any binary repository may be used.
(but using some sources-based systems, arguably with inherent stronger dependency tracking utilities)
_
Nor is portage itself a requirement - pre-compiled binaries or even RPMs etc
may be user installed - unlike most, old Apps may concurrently exist side-by-side with new
So is Gentoo well suited to your wishes - maybe not, but then few know what they want,
and those that do don't seeem to give it much thought or are still in the stage where
as experience grows_ so does expectations, pet Apps & manner of use.
If any percieved "weakness" exists in Linux - it the the overwhelming abundance of choice !
Too many options tend to confuse, all take time to assess
Same old story - the operating system, of ANY stripe (and it's developers) are blamed
For what- the user that wants all to be as they think it should
Without any effort on their part
Sorry but life is not like that - Esp not in silicon- land ~ whether linux or others - M/S. BSD. Mac
When very experienced PROS cannot agree - yet they publicly flaunt "credentials"
Little wonder there is scant concensus
My "credentials" ?? In over 8 Yrs of use, NO forced reinstall -
all self-inflicted -Duuhs repaired _ and I am FAR from an "expert"
Perhaps the only advantage - I had no misconceptions nor unreal expectations
The payoff - Gentoo exceeded wildest wishes > IT's (not my plebian skills to use the power)
Those "qualified experts" are misleading their admirers. they themselves are blaming the wrong "TOOL"
19 • Gentoo (by Peppermint twist on 2007-08-20 13:15:15 GMT from United States)
To quote a famous NFL running back,Ricky Waters," For who,for what?"
20 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 13:16:23 GMT from Portugal)
I've started using Gentoo 3 weeks ago... My feedback? I've finally set on a distro and that you've guessed it... it's Gentoo.
Why? Quality and quantity of the documentation available; customization; learning experience; up to date packages and the package management system.
The USE flags combined with the amazing portage allows you to build the system the way you want. And I didn't find it hard to understand as Gentoo's documentation is very well laid down: just grab the Handbook and off you go.
Don't get me wrong... I'm no power user, actually I've started using Linux 5 months ago. I don't want another point and click OS. I want something with which I can learn, understand and finally use.
I find Gentoo challenging and fun. Now I'm too spoiled to use any other. ;)
21 • Gentoo (by kirill on 2007-08-20 13:20:44 GMT from Japan)
no mater how much you nag Gentoo (or any other Distro). People choose what they choose.
Gentoo has issues, but its gives what no other distro does.
22 • Gentoo (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 13:22:04 GMT from Portugal)
Gentoo can be quite overwhelming for the user, but only in the beginning. It's actually one of the easiest distros in terms of package management, thank to the USE flags, because you can actually see the options available before installing a package. In debian you can't do that, you have to search for the package that will provide, for example, SQLite support in Apache. In Gentoo you just tell Apache thar you want SQLite and you're done. The Portage package management system is the best in the GNU/Linux world, hands down.
But yeah, it can be quite time consuming. I've tried to change from Gentoo to Ubuntu on my main machine (I use Ubuntu everywhere else), but I really missed Portage and so I changed back after a week.
23 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 13:34:08 GMT from Canada)
Ahh, more subjective opinions - once more on systems not even used ?
The reviewer broke two cardinal rules -
Never upgrade until the need is proven
Never upgrade entire system at once (did he really presume eveything was insecure ?
Or reads kernel change logs or dedicated security site reports ?
Gentoo can be as simple as any others - or as intricate & powerful as desired
Unlike binary based platforms everything is left to discretion of the user
UNLIKE GUI wizards "click & hope" it's up to the user to just read & apply
If he/she can read there is little NOT supremely well documented
The forum can supply solutions to most all else.
Use flags - can be left alone - using the defaults of each E-build
They are for any degree (or lack of) fine-grained customizations - of mix-match dependencies
The system has unique folders - but they are needed for Portage & sytemn tracking
of all installed, changes etc.
Where did the concept of "speed" arise - there ARE performance gains
But it is the degree of control & assurance it runs on YOUR system
is the benefits to any sources based system
A "side blessing" NO more (new) installs since there is NO O/System "versions
Later releases yes - incorporating the same changes available in newer E-builds
The SAME manner in which any binary repository may be used.
(but using some sources-based systems, arguably with inherent stronger dependency tracking utilities)
_
Nor is portage itself a requirement - pre-compiled binaries or even RPMs etc
may be user installed - unlike most, old Apps may concurrently exist side-by-side with new
So is Gentoo well suited to your wishes - maybe not, but then few know what they want,
and those that do don't seeem to give it much thought or are still in the stage where
as experience grows_ so does expectations, pet Apps & manner of use.
If any percieved "weakness" exists in Linux - it the the overwhelming abundance of choice !
Too many options tend to confuse, all take time to assess
Same old story - the operating system, of ANY stripe (and it's developers) are blamed
For what- the user that wants all to be as they think it should
Without any effort on their part
Sorry but life is not like that - Esp not in silicon- land ~ whether linux or others - M/S. BSD. Mac
When very experienced PROS cannot agree - yet they publicly flaunt "credentials"
Little wonder there is scant concensus
My "credentials" ?? In over 8 Yrs of use, NO forced reinstall -
all self-inflicted -Duuhs repaired _ and I am FAR from an "expert"
Perhaps the only advantage - I had no misconceptions nor unreal expectations
The payoff - Gentoo exceeded wildest wishes > IT's (not my plebian skills to use the power)
Those "qualified experts" are misleading their admirers. they themselves are blaming the wrong "TOOL"
24 • Used Gentoo for over a year... (by massysett on 2007-08-20 13:36:40 GMT from United States)
...and I learned a lot. I'd have to disagree with Ladislav's comment about Gentoo knowledge not being transferable: you learn to configure many packages by hand (using files in /etc, for example) and that stuff is definitely transferable.
Having used Gentoo for over a year, I got tired of babying the system. Too many times, I installed new packages, only to find they were broken and the emerge didn't complete. These weren't even obscure packages--this happened with ksh, for example.
Too many times, one upgrades something in Gentoo only to find breakage. Then one consults the forums, where people say "you should've read the forums" or "you should've read the Gentoo Weekly News." It shouldn't be necessary to search forums before upgrading anything.
To which some will reply, don't upgrade unless you have to. Gentoo's problem is that security updates often require considerable upgrading, which leads to breakage. There simply is not a satisfactory Gentoo security infrastructure (yes, I know about glsa; it has many problems.)
Portage is having considerable problems. It buckles under the load of the currently huge tree. Searching using emerge --search takes forever, making third-party tools like eix a necessity. Portage is often cited as one of the best things about Gentoo, but I think it is fast becoming an albatross.
Gentoo is nice for learning, but sitting around and fixing breakage just got too old for me. I'm on Ubuntu now, and I spend so much less time on maintenance.
25 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 13:40:42 GMT from Canada)
Now that's interesting- why should a later "page refresh" after reading featured articles - re-send a posting ?
Sorry all - I didn't really intend that to happen
Please delete _& thankyou for the patience
26 • No subject (by re: #8 on 2007-08-20 13:43:26 GMT from United States)
learn to spell
mecanism?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mecanism&btnG=Google+Search
27 • power versus complexity (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 13:50:41 GMT from Canada)
Your comments on power versus complexity are exactly the reasons why I choosed ArchLinux, a lightweight and flexible linux distribution that tries to Keep It Simple ! Everything I have to learn in ArchLinux could be used in another context, so you don't learn for nothing !
28 • Gentoo (by voislav on 2007-08-20 13:51:57 GMT from Canada)
I was always intruiged by Gentoo, the idea of a custom built distro is a very appealing one. That said, I never made the plunge, mostly because of time constraints. Not being in the IT bussines myself the only time I get to play with Linux is at home, which is not much.
Re:12 and 14. WTF, DWW is so popular now that some crap publication is spamming the readers comment section. Don't they read this thing, the whole Mandriva vs. PCLOS thing might infect their site :)
29 • Gentoo (by Ed Borasky on 2007-08-20 13:55:36 GMT from United States)
Well ... I got here pretty late, so most everything I would have said has been said already. I agree with most of the things most people said about Gentoo.
1. Yes, if you're a hard-core Gentoo user like myself, switching to a better-known one is difficult. I can administer a Gentoo box in my sleep but I've flunked the RHCE exam *twice* because of this. ;)
2. Yes, compiling takes time and isn't often worth it and when it *is* worth it, both .deb-based and .rpm based distros *do* have source packages available
3. Yes, it is intricate and can sometimes bite you.
I run three Gentoo systems, one a laptop dual-booted with Windows XP and the other two what I would describe as scientific workstations. One is an Athlon64 X2 4200+ with 4 GB of RAM. I run both the workstations very close to the edge -- keyworded to get "testing-level" packages, stuff from the science overlays and in many cases stuff that isn't even in Portage yet. If I had the spare time I'd volunteer as a Gentoo developer.
So I will stay with Gentoo unless it dies. If it does die, my only practical alternative is Debian "testing" with some "unstable" thrown in. I've looked at both CentOS and Fedora -- they're OK, and if I decide to take a third run at the RHCE, I'll no doubt spend six months with CentOS as prep for the exam. But Gentoo is still my distro of choice.
30 • Statstics (by kenjite on 2007-08-20 14:03:38 GMT from United States)
As much as you would like to believe Distrowatch is not the de-facto tool of the adoption of linux for any particular country. I do understand you were talking about stats for your website but there seems to be a tone that would imply that African countries don't read Distrowatch because they are not interested in linux.
31 • re: 3 & Gentoo in general (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 14:08:49 GMT from United States)
I didn't see the article as Gentoo bashing, he just didn't know what USE flags to use. I tried Gentoo back in 2004, and I did the "Stage 1" install. Although it took some time, I followed the documentation (which I had printed out) and didn't run into any problems. I chose Gentoo back then mainly for speed since I was going to do video editing. I actually got Cinelerra to work pretty reliably just using tips from the Gentoo forums. I never had a problem with the documentation, and things that were not covered by the documentation, like Cinelerra, I was able to find on their forums or elsewhere on the internet. I still respect Gentoo, but I have moved onto other distros because I don't think the speed gains realized by compiling everything are that big versus Fedora or Suse anymore. I am glad I tried Gentoo though, especailly the stage 1 install.
32 • "especailly the stage 1 install" (@31) (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 14:16:57 GMT from France)
"s/aill/iall/" Et dans votre langue maternelle...
cf [26 • No subject (by re: #8 on 2007-08-20 13:43:26 GMT from United States)
learn to spell]
33 • Gentoo (by jmv on 2007-08-20 14:35:52 GMT from Canada)
My answer to Caraibes (Poster #5): if you never tried Gentoo, and by the way any other distro, how can you afford to criticize it?
Yes I am a Gentoo user. I've been using it for almost four years, now. Yes Gentoo is challenging and time consuming at first. But I learned a lot more about the inner workings of Linux in those four years than in the previous 5 years I had been using Red Hat, Mandrake and the likes (I started in 1999 with Red Hat 5.2). Speaking of Red Hat, I started using Gentoo when that company decided to let the community down and gave it Fedora to toy with, and labor on it.
How many times did you upgrade Fedora, to since then? How many reinstalls were you forced to do because upgrading broke your system? I did one Gentoo install and that was it. I kept my system up-to-date and did not have to worry about upgrades, and even less about dependency hell, untill I bought a new computer, last December.
Gentoo has its shortcomings, like any other distro. But you know what? I find those shortcomings less frustrating than with the other distros.
And I keep learning :-).
34 • space, time and gentoo (by Rich D on 2007-08-20 14:36:00 GMT from United States)
I've tried gentoo last year and after about two weeks of part-time work had a functioning system. The bottom line though, compiling from source, setting use flags gets you what? Perhaps a half a second here and there in program speed or functionality. I really didn't see a difference compared to Debian or Slackware based distros. I will admit that my exposure is limited.
Sabayon, on the other hand, was a pleasure to set up, especially Beryl and the overall polish of the distro was commendable. When it came to updating Firefox using Kuroo, what a nightmare. It took less time to install the entire distro than it took to update Firefox. I would suggest that route to those interested in Sabayon on an ongoing basis.
Rich D
35 • The Fall of Gentoo (by ScottishDuck on 2007-08-20 14:45:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
Distrowatch has no vendetta against gentoo, it has merely documented the cracks emerging in both the dev team and "other things" such as portage beggining to become very slow. I'm a Sabayon user and, before i hear "thats a gentoo distro!" i can tell you the team is distancing itself and we will soon have our own package manager "equo" which is 10x better than portage and will revolutionise linux.
36 • re: #6 and gentoo (by ray carter at 2007-08-20 14:47:02 GMT from United States)
I've used Gentoo on my mini-itx box for several years now - I've reinstalled once - due to significant differences in the overall system. I find that it updates quite easily and reliably - incremental updates rather than having to take the bull by the horns for a version upgrade like other systems. I find it rock solid, and MUCH FASTER THAN ANY BINARY DISTRO i HAVE EVER USED on my mini-itx box.
BTW - I use Gentoo on one machine (for performance), Ubuntu on several others and Elive on a couple of 'older' boxes - what does that say about me with regard to the 'personality profile' mentioned? I am a retired computer scientist, if that helps.
37 • gentoo is great (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 14:52:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi.
I have tried about 12 distros - i run 3 full time - Gentoo, opensuse and kubuntu.
Although it takes longer to setup gentoo and to upgrade packages I find I have to do less to make gentoo work.
for example there has been a long running bug in an SDL .deb for ubuntu that effects brightness (this is just one example) so I have to compile from source to make it work.
gentoo just seems to work for me, It also seems faster - also 64 bit gentoo seems easier to get 32 bit things to work.
38 • Article on Gentoo/Sabayon GNU/Linux (by W. Anderson on 2007-08-20 14:53:48 GMT from United States)
Your article on Gentoo/Sabayon was very interesting and provocative, but ended
on a false premise and contradiction.
If Gentoo is itself becoming too complex, then why not stick with Sabayon, which was created "precisely" to eliminate the complexity of generic Gentoo. Furthermore any group or company can also create a Sabayon-like pseudo distribution with even more business management and update tools that are point-n-click.
My experience with Gentoo/Sabayon mirrors yours, which is reason I now use Sabayon Business Edition 1.0 with great success, knowing that behind the very easy "Kuroo" software installer/update and configuration, is the "sophistication" of Gentoo without my having to know.
39 • xxxxx (by xxxxx at 2007-08-20 14:54:36 GMT from Australia)
The system also contains a Telugu text-to-speech software integrated with the desktop; this makes it possible for even illiterate persons to use the operating system, access the Internet, read documents, etc...
My question is : "how the hell does an illiterate person read documents,,"
Fair suck of the savaloy , Swecha please correct your statements
40 • Linux in Egypt (by Moataz on 2007-08-20 14:55:17 GMT from Egypt)
Although Linux is not that popular in Egypt, I am glad that Egypt took the second place in Africa. The problem is that kids are given computer lessons in schools on Windows, so they grow up with Windows in mind.
Anyway, keep reading and enjoying this fantastic site, fellow Egyptian Linux users!!!
41 • Gentoo rules (by Sphinx on 2007-08-20 14:56:22 GMT from United States)
Migrant code laborer, it works extremely well for me and I really don't spend any more time maintaining it than I do any other distro. Simply the best cutting edge stuff for amd64 X2, can't say enough good things about it.
42 • Re:33 (by Caraibes on 2007-08-20 14:58:39 GMT from Dominican Republic)
Jmv, you are right, I haven't tried Gentoo, so I can't really say bad things about it. I was only commenting on Ladislav's review, so don't take it bad. I didn't mean to make you Gentoo guys feel bad.
My point was that I usually read reviews of distros before trying them, and in Gentoo's case, I was completely turned off by the feedback. No offense...
As of Fedora, I never had to re-install because of anything. As a matter of fact, I usually perform a clean-install every new release, because I like it, so I can experiment different ways to do things... It doesn't bother me at all, as all my data is on another partition... I could stick to the whole 13 months of support, but usually I enjoy having the new release. On other boxes, I simply run Debian Stable...
43 • Arch Linux (by Tom on 2007-08-20 15:13:44 GMT from United States)
Another vote for Arch Linux.
44 • Gentoo & Complexity (by Justin Whitaker on 2007-08-20 15:20:19 GMT from United States)
Gentoo, to me, is one of those things that I get, but I can't get running to my satisfaction. Mostly, it's around Xorg, and yes, it's mostly USER ERROR.
That said, something like Gentoo is a vital differentiator from closed source operating systems: an infinitely tweakable operating system to suit whatever the user/admin wants to do.
So I get it on the intellectual level....I just never committed to learning how to get things done. With 500 distributions to choose from, it is real easy to grab another disk off the pile and install that instead of waiting for a long Xorg compile.
BTW: I wouldn't say that skills learned on Gentoo are not transferable...the only Gentoo specific thing that I see is Portage and the Ebuild system...USE and CFlags can be used on any Linux distribution, if you are compiling applications using the GCC toolchain.
Yes, most distros have little nuances that are not transferable to other distributions, but I wouldn't say that these are among them.
45 • xxxxx (by xxxxx at 2007-08-20 15:20:40 GMT from Australia)
The system also contains a Telugu text-to-speech software integrated with the desktop; this makes it possible for even illiterate persons to use the operating system, access the Internet, read documents, etc...
My question is : "how the hell does an illiterate person read documents,,"
Fair suck of the savaloy , Swecha please correct your statements
46 • I did not try Gentoo, and my questions are thus unrhetorical (by dbrion on 2007-08-20 15:32:43 GMT from France)
Does it compile the same way than the traditional one?
If yes, it is very long, and there are many parts of linux which are not that interesting, once one has a stable system, if it is satisfying, why upgrade/reinstall (LT spoke about (rare, of course) regressions in the linux Kernel cf http://www.efytimes.com/archive/145/news.htm, thanks to @14)
The application one (should) like[s] are more interesting to upgrade from source, just to consult parts of the sources, have the latest version and, in case of an extreme necessity, to correct them (and report the correction-it happens once every yr to me-).
But everything?
Except for cross compiling or for very old PCs, I doubt one can see a difference. Perhaps speed gains -if any-/ or RAM greediness improvements are known...
47 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 16:16:00 GMT from Canada)
Linux can be anything wanted - IF the time, patience, effort seems worthwile
LINUX is the kernel only - the glue to make all else do anything
Apps to no end, utilities to manipulate using the CLI
GUI environments for eye-candy or multi-media enjoyments
Ease of "front-end" wrappers of complicated "behind the scenes" processess
Inspired USE optimizations for Gentoo E-builds (or own complies) MAY lead to performance gains -
but the faster, more capable the hardware, the less any differences are noted.
The "use flags" are NOT for "snap" - they ARE for reducing optional library dependencies
That may aid performance, but allows customisations not available otherwise
Time wasted - if lengthy compiles, baackground them
Need to learn - if YOU consider it all waste - what may anyone else think about
"wisdom" of ANY non-essential hobby ?
Source-based systems (may be) the ultimate do_it_all platform
Think of Gentoo as Linux From Scratch - without the steep learning curve
of gathering all yourself, then need of dependency tracking and black-magic
of coding - ESP for package Mgt.
RPM & binaries were one approach ~ Newer methods have been formulated
NOTHING can replace thinking for yourself, or depend on others eternally
A little hint: The world of Information Technology is VAST
NONE may think of selves as having mastered all > or even any single portion
If that is too tedious, use whatever fits YOUR needs.
Whatever that may be, it is self-delusional to hope all aspects will be mastered,
and certainly not in a period of casual use over a few months
If USE flags confuse, read ACOVEA and compiler options to see other implications
Benchmarks are applicable only to the unique hardware and Apps they ran
Even if Gentoo fades away - if the user reads the Docs - there is nothing to stop them
from making own E-builds
Portage is under intensive review, Paludis or Pkgcore may become it's replacement
APGCC &/or understanding how to use Fuser, one of "Trace" utilities, & the "linker"
will go far to empowering the user.
As will delving into the kernel, user sycalls versus Queued ABI intercepts
Too complicated, why bother - all depends on own interests
OUR views will not alter the future of Linux unless you are a maintainer of any parts
DistroWatch content tables are a valued starting point, articles reflect a sampling of user's
dabblings - neither should be considered any validation or endorsement of worthiness
Respectfully, it is submitted, all may be great fun to bandy, but little else.
Points of view are not persuaded, feelings run high - rankings change but are not
an indicator of suitability
Thanks are due to Ladislav for the content, Happy hunting to all
48 • Gentoo (by John on 2007-08-20 16:17:44 GMT from United States)
The author is obviously a mouth-breather who didn't bother to take the time to learn the system. There are easy-to-use utilities that show the USE flags any package honors, how (and where) they are currently set, which packages honor a given USE flag, etc., etc.
# Which packages honor the USE flag 'gstreamer'?
equery hasuse gstreamer
# What USE flags does the 'gstreamer' package honor?
equery uses gstreamer
# What does the USE flag 'gstreamer' mean?
euse -i gstreamer
# What USE flags does the 'gstreamer' package have, what do they mean, how are they currently set, and where are they currently being set?
dep -u gstreamer
etc. etc. etc.
If you understand the basic principles beneath the utilities and the system, the knowledge is completely transferable. It's apparent to me the author is speaking from a narrow base of experience (mostly Linux, not UNIX or BSD), or they wouldn't think of Gentoo as strange. It's more like BSD than RedHat or Debian.
49 • Waste of Time (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 16:41:14 GMT from Ireland)
To me I think Gentoo is a waste of time, I couldnt be bothered spending ages installing it and I don't know what type of software packaging it uses so I would be lost.
I installed Ubuntu and it was so easy to install and generally the distro is very easy to use, fast , easy to customise and updated the fastest out of all the distros.
50 • Gentoo (by Jesse on 2007-08-20 16:47:32 GMT from Canada)
Gentoo is an interesting idea, but I've never touched it. I want
a system that works out of the box, not something I need
to compile. Most major Linux distro have little bugs, quirks or
issues that need to be worked out and I accept that. The idea
behind Gentoo seems to be that it IS the quirk, bug, config setting
that needs to be tweaked.
51 • RE 49 Waste of time? Qu 48 I do not understand... (by dbrion on 2007-08-20 17:01:38 GMT from France)
Monsieur Bodnar wrote a brilliant how-to _not_ waste time while installing Gentoo in DWW 101, 2 yrs ago....
Qu 48 Which author are you referring to?
52 • keyboard zoom [ctrl][alt][+] , stopped working after Sabayon 2.64 (by jane_ikari on 2007-08-20 17:11:43 GMT from United States)
keyboard zoom [ctrl][alt][+] , stopped working after Sabayon 2.64 - When do we get it back ?
Not just Sabayon but most Linux's in my collection, the other big exception is Knoppix 5.11. Specifically it does not come back after fiddling or transplanting xorg.conf. Should we really believe nobody in the whole world wants to zoom from the keyboard using the same commands they've been using for half a decade ? If you wonder how broad my linux experience is check b.coston.googlepages.com to see what I'v been doing. Hoping the back to sanity [ Etch vs Experimental] MEPIS includes zoom and not the wipe out all distributions on drive freature. Overall, maintainers sometimes forget the real needs of the users [ reading captcha's and other hard print on my laptop etc. ] [and youtube] .
53 • JackLab RC1, KDEnlive 0.5, LMMS 0.3 (by Dan MacDonald on 2007-08-20 17:26:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
2007 will undoubtedly be remembered as a very special year for Linux, and the last few days have been the best yet!
JackLab RC1 was released on Saturday and its been updated to include the brand new, much improved KDEnlive 0.5 video editor (now capable of capturing/editing HDV!!!), the latest stable Ardour release, dvd::rip, better wireless support,chibitracker 1.0 and more!
Now I'm even more excited about the blossoming (erupting?) world of Linux multimedia because the much anticipated LMMS 0.3.0 was released today! LMMS is a free alternative to FruityLoops. This new version is much more stable than the last release and has 100's of great new features such as having GPL'd support for VST plugins, LADSPA support, improved automation, built in speech synth etc etc.
I can see these great new apps and distros like JackLab gaining Linux a lot of new converts very soon!
DRM (yes, those are my initials. Ironic?)
54 • PClinuxOS (by neo-maxi on 2007-08-20 17:28:36 GMT from United States)
Any unbuntu users try this distro.....
I like it better than any other!!!
Perfect for newbies!!!
Give it a try.
55 • screw gentoo (by Grade AA on 2007-08-20 17:33:52 GMT from United States)
A colossal waste of time, that I am sorry I ever used. Portage is slow, Gentoo is too complex for its own good, and the community sucks. Nothing but arrogant, elitist egomaniac ricers more interested in humiliating newbs than helping others. I have since moved on to Archlinux and will not look back.
56 • USE flags and Gentoo (by BeastOfBurden on 2007-08-20 17:42:44 GMT from United States)
I enjoy maintaining Gentoo for the same reason I like writing Perl scripts - there's more than one way to do it. This is not everyone's cup of tea, and this is understandable, but I personally would not want to do without Gentoo's flexibility. The only reason why Gento has grown in 'perceived' complexity is that the number of packages has grown immensely since Ladislav last touched Gentoo, thus more options are necessary to allow all packages to coexist nicely. Gentoo is only a complex as you let it be. It is entirely a question of what you use your system for.
Knowing which USE flags affect a package is simply a question of performing a "pretend" emerge using the --pretend flag (or -p for those lacking in patience) and enabling "verbose" output (--verbose, or -v for short).
For example:
% emerge --pretend --verbose apache
or
% emerge -vp apache
After this, the apache package will not install, but the screen output will tell you the versions of the package that are available, and also the list of USE flags which affect the package.
At this point, the easiest thing to do is to either add the USE flags by hand to your /etc/make.conf, or use the 'euse' utility to enable/disable the appropriate flags automatically (euse simply edits your USE variable in /etc/make.conf for you - very simple, very easy).
% euse --enable apache2
Once you emerge tohe package, it may not compile the first time, or maybe a dependency may not compile on the first try, so you may have to tweak USE flags or run 'revdep-rebuild' if there is some reverse dependent package that needs to be re-emerged to make the new package compile correctly, but the path to a working install always exists. In either case, you will learn something. This is what I most love about Gentoo: it is a distro that encourages learning. That is why those with no patience find it so frustrating.
Anyway, a user can either set USE flags globally in the /etc/make.conf, or they can set them on a per-package level using the /etc/portage/package.use file. The decision of one over the other depends on whether the user wants to/needs to have to manage the USE flags with high granularity.
If the USE flags are managed globally, you can discover which package will be affected by a given use flag by enabling the USE flag in /etc/make.conf and then running a pretend emerge with the --newuse (or -N in shorthand) flag enabled
I have had great success running multiple Gentoo systems for over 3 years on my home LAN using the following sequence of commands for every system update:
% emerge --sync && emerge -uvp world
This syncs me with the portage tree and tells me in verbose manner which packages will get updated. If necessary I can then manage my USE flags before performing the following:
% emerge --sync &&
emerge -u world &&
dispatch-conf &&
env-update &&
source /etc/profile &&
revdep-rebuild -X &&
dispatch-conf &&
env-update &&
source /etc/profile
If I updated USE flags prior to the update, I replace 'emerge -u world' with 'emerge -uN world' so that other packages affected by use flags get updated appropriately.
57 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 18:23:32 GMT from India)
Tasters
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cooked and served food --> Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva, openSUSE ...
Humans ( :) )
All tasters taste and enjoy their food. They live to eat
Eaters
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raw Meat --> Slacware, Debian
Army men
All eaters gulp their food. They eat to live
Hunters
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live Meat --> Gentoo
Lions and Tigers
All hunters relish their hunt. They hunt to eat and eat to hunt
Ha ha ha
I personally enjoy hunting (enjoyed gentoo), now gulping meat (I am using debian now), will taste food (soon after gutsy release or after suse release)
Cheer up friends, let us switch as much distributions as we want ... we are omnivores
58 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 18:26:20 GMT from United States)
"It doesn't take weeks or months to learn USE flags, I just explained it in one paragraph. It takes less than a page of reading to understand everything you need to know about portage."
--I don't understand it.
Tried out Sabayon a few weeks ago and really liked it except for Portage and overly long boot up and shut down times.
59 • Sabayon/Gentoo (by Nanlee on 2007-08-20 18:37:53 GMT from Canada)
I have been playing with many Linux distros (mainly live CDs, but also installed Slackware, Victor, MCN on to an old PC) for about a year or so and enjoyed reading the articles on this site including this one about Sabayon/Gentoo. My comments:
1. Why is Gentoo power users so upset when others point out the problem they got with Gentoo? What would you say if you called Microsoft tech support telling them what your problem and they get upset and bashing you?
2. Some of the comments are saying Gentoo is easy, you just need a handbook or manual. Have you ever heard people praising their gadgets by saying "it's so great, I can use it out of the box without reading the manual" or "It's wonderful, I have been using it for a long time never need to read the manual"? The point is it is not easy if you ever need to read the manual or handbook.
3. While bashing the critics and defending Gentoo, did the power users ever think why Sabayon is soaring and Gentoo is sinking in popularity? (last check Sabayon is at 5th place and Gentoo is ??)
4. An OS that requires more advanced knowledges to use does not mean it is a more advanced OS. DOS required the knowledge of the commands to use it properly, but nobody would say it is more advanced than Windows. Yes, Gentoo gives you the option to pick the packages and build your own apps, but it does not mean it is more advanced. You can choose all the ingredients and cook your own gourmet dish to suit your taste, while others enjoy choosing food from a resteraunt menu and have them prepared by the chiefs. It does not mean cooking by your self is more advanced.
5. Several users are saying Gentoo is faster, but none of them ever give any actual numbers to show how much faster, and on what machine. This information is important, because it is the justification of spending more time to set it up according to many of the comments. Without these numbers, it is just an argument.
60 • fedora (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 19:01:37 GMT from Germany)
i miss the possibility in fedora in the gdm to logout to the console and close X for perhaps to install nvidia or ati amd displaydriver in console mode and other things in console without xorg.
61 • efytimes posts should be deleted (by Desillusioned on 2007-08-20 19:22:21 GMT from Canada)
Hey, here's a new interview with Torvalds, you think. (They're usually boring, but anyways...) Of course, this Efytimes crappy magazine, like many Linux magazines, doesn't date its articles. Then you come to this:
Q: The soon to be released Windows Longhorn is touted to be Microsoft's answer to the Linux threat, as Windows NT was for Novell in the 90s. Are there any improvements planned in Linux, keeping the technology advancements of Longhorn in mind?
http://www.efytimes.com/archive/146/news.htm
and realize that the article must be something like 3 years old.
God damns efytimes crap!
62 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 19:22:32 GMT from Canada)
Ladislav:
If posts such as #55 are permissable, all DistroWatch credibility comes into question
In exmples:
Is there truth to the history referred by post #3 > MORE Gentoo bashing
Why did an "experienced user" denigrate the USE flags -
without knowledge of, nor taking time to understand them
prior to highlighting it in any "objective review"
How did an experienced user fail to correct the PAM issue without resorting to a re-install
Be it noted, even the borking of Python - critical to using Portage,
is documented for procedure to repairs
Bowing to pressures of expediency is practical but that side-stepping should not be basis of unfair critiquing,
> nor should revelations of "feet_of_ clay be stated that may be mis-construed in manner to suggest-
a politically-correct pre-approval from sympathetic audience.
As distastful as it is to state, would it be unfair to think it as irresponsible reporting,
and is suggestive of (Expose) tabloids that rely on supposedly factual tibits of intimacies
Editors, publishers are held to higher standards of accountablity to readership
The same applies to anyone publishing views, when they are supposedly qualified
by public pronouncements of credentials.
If not, readers are correct to view anything as merely one more marketing ploy
to increase popularity and "sell" their by-lines.
63 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 20:01:30 GMT from Canada)
What is #62 trying to say? Don't you think the personal attack in #3 is much much worse than #55?
64 • Gentoo takes time (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 20:01:34 GMT from United States)
I used to use Ubuntu, but wanted something that was more flexible. I at least wanted to be able to uninstall programs I didn't use. I tried Gentoo and it beat me up and left me for dead. I just couldn't get it installed.
That was a couple of years ago. Then I came upon Debian. Once I figured things out, I realized that you really can do almost anything you want with it, yet there is always something precompiled waiting for you for installation with apt-get.
Now I will install just a base system sometimes and operate from the command line. Want a responsive system? Work from the command line for a while. You can install as much or as little as you want. If you don't like the resource-hogging GNOME or KDE, install XFCE. Be warned, though, you don't get anything, not even a browser, that way. On the other hand, you will never get stuck with anything you don't want. A minimal Debian installation is not really a distribution, it's the foundation of a distribution that you build for yourself.
If you want to compile a couple of packages (and that's all I need to compile to get certain optimizations) you can always do that. Otherwise, there are more binary packages available than for any other distro.
A couple of months ago I was having difficulty installing Debian testing (figured out later that you need to install Etch and then upgrade, as the testing installer is not working right) so I tried Sabayon. Yikes! I came to the realization that Debian is more flexible because of the binary package installation options. I found no additional compilation options that I didn't already have with Debian.
My opinion is that for most users, Gentoo and Sabayon look greener when they're on the other side of the fence. If you're into customization, 30 minutes will give you a working Debian system to build on.
Of course, this is the beauty of Linux, isn't it? I use what works for me, you use what works for you. We need more distros, not fewer. Gentoo, Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu, Mandriva, PCLOS, Vector, everyone has his/her reasons for liking his/her distro.
65 • Gentoo, has it gone too far? (by Garry Freemyer on 2007-08-20 20:05:26 GMT from United States)
Well I tried Gentoo a few years ago and I found the documentation the death of me. While many have found it easy although time consuming to install.
Trouble is, that not everyone is blessed with good vision, and some of us have to contend with the reality that when reading huge documentations, similary worded sentences, it is almost impossible to avoid missing lines, and instructions.
I tried over and over, to install it without sucess because back then, I was foolish enough not to think of simply going through the documentation myself, putting bullets and step #'s so as to insure that were I to lose my place, it would not be an irrecovereable desaster.
For the majority of folks, I think the candy store thing is a nice delight to explore, and having many ways of doing a thing does make me a bit nervous because of my past experience with Microsoft net programming where there are ten ways of doing everything, but only one of them really works.
I don't think they've gone too far, but I do reccommend that the documents be formatted for readability.
The only other comment I would like to make is regarding Portato the gui emerge front end. When emerging, there is often no indication that the process is done, nor is there any indication that the system isn't locked up. I've compiled things and ended up hitting reset to end the process that I thought was locked up. Fortunately, I had a backup to restore when it would not boot up.
I do find the huge array of upgrade choices daunting, not knowing if I might break something trying to emerge something, or end up waiting half a day for it to compile. I am currently using 3.4e of Sabayon, I like it but I think I should have installed 3.3 because I don't want bleeding edge, just stable packages for the most part.
The other alternative is MIni Edition, which makes things simpler, but there are many of a package that isn't available for the mini-edition, trying to upgrade many a package got me a mysterious "Cannot compute kernel version" and a failure of the emerge.
66 • RE: # 55 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-08-20 20:29:27 GMT from Italy)
"A colossal waste of time, that I am sorry I ever used. Portage is slow, Gentoo is too complex for its own good, and the community sucks. Nothing but arrogant, elitist egomaniac ricers more interested in humiliating newbs than helping others. I have since moved on to Archlinux and will not look back."
It sounds about right to me. In another forum I was "modded down" (that should be done only for offensive language, an off topic post or spam) for daring to contradict somebody who said that Portage is the best thing after sliced salami.
As to Sabayon I have tried very hard to love it, but how can I, when it is the only distro that doesn't even boot (I tried on 3 different motherboards), and when I know that it is Gentoo based (when it used to boot I had almost exactly the same problems as Ladislav)?
67 • RE: # 64 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-08-20 20:36:00 GMT from Italy)
"A couple of months ago I was having difficulty installing Debian testing (figured out later that you need to install Etch and then upgrade, as the testing installer is not working right) so I tried Sabayon. Yikes! I came to the realization that Debian is more flexible because of the binary package installation options. I found no additional compilation options that I didn't already have with Debian."
I hope Fabio Erculiani will read this.
68 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 20:43:46 GMT from Canada)
Subjective opinions only - #3 may feel Gentoo was previously unfairly critiqued:
# 55 IS A TROll
Neither are credible if not substaniated by provable facts
#3 is understandable - & matter of unkowns
#55 is not acceptable to most adults
> DW is not a personal blog site:
Everyone using it should at least try to be respectful and stand prepared to
present views in manner of use to others for evaluations
> The very reason for existence of this valuable resource
Re #59
Enough is now too much - operating systems are NOT a religion
to be wor(d)shipped in blind faith as were the purported biblical tablets ot stone !
Who stated point blank Gentoo was "more advanced" than brand -X ?
Distributions are merely a tool-if it doesn't "feel" right- choose another.
Admittance to not understanding the concepts of any design is a poor basis for rejections
Understanding own idiosyncrasies (we ALL have them) might be a good starting point
to finding own nirvana
You likely would not believe (nor should you) any "benchmarks" indicating
{SUPPOSED} superiority of platform
Gentoo never was for casual useage -
The mere capabililty of a new_to_Linux user, willing to read & follow instructions, then install
is very recent in history of ANY Linux
Find your own justifications & enjoy results in good health
Even the maligned Microsoft is a still a good choice for those willing to suffer
it's faults - why does that fact distress FOSS users ?
Let anything live or die on own merits
Save the angst for politicians of any stripe, life is too short to squabble over operating systems
Publicly discuss anything technical - but take care you understand the basics underlying your beliefs
(They WILL be challenged by some sharp-eyed, bored ? "old-hand" or flamed by the ever-present troll) !
If any think they are safe in anonymity of the faceless Web -
they truly do not appreciate the potential of present technologies
All is seldom as percieved.
And if THaT didn't sink in, ponder this:
Whoever said (Never look a Gift Horse)
> plainly forgot to mention - "in EITHER end"
69 • Ladislav, you used Sabayon - NOT Gentoo (by Brody on 2007-08-20 20:56:59 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, You've written a poor article here, in which you condemn one distro for another distro's problems and your own laziness.
Your problems stem from the fact that you don't understand USE flags. Well, you couldn't have made it through a proper Gentoo installation without having it explained to you in the Gentoo Handbook. If you had installed (the real McCoy) Gentoo, you would have set up initial USE flags during installation, then hardly had to worry about them again.
Instead, you took a known-to-be-unstable shortcut and installed Sabayon. You experienced problems to which Sabayon machines are prone, but do you blame Sabayon? No, you write another article criticizing Gentoo. One minute you (rightly) blame Sabayon for leaving out common packages from their DVD, and the next minute, you criticize Gentoo for having too many "alternative, less often used tools" available.
Since you put your criticisms of Gentoo in the form of questions, here are my answers:
--No, Gentoo isn't needlessly complex. It is complex, but there are good reasons why it should be. It supports more arches and works for more purposes than anything else out there.
--Yes, it is worth the time and effort for real power users who like to tweak, break, and fix things, and have the best system in the end. But if you don't LIKE tweaking things, Gentoo is probably not for you.
--No, they haven't gone too far to make the distro powerful, whatever that means. Power is what I want. Portage and other Gentoo tools are not always perfect, but I find that they work as reliably as the other distros out there, while doing more.
70 • Re: 61 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 21:08:24 GMT from United States)
Actually, if you read the article you'll find it is quite recent (Referencing recent comments about Sun and GPL 3, and the Xandros, Linspire, Novell deals). Also, while I'm not sure, I think Longhorn just relates to Microsofts most recent development (ie. Windows Server 2008) and not just what has been most recently released.
Don't know about all their articles, but this didn't seem that awful?
71 • Gentoo: how to know if it's faster? (by KimTjik on 2007-08-20 21:09:03 GMT from Sweden)
This is really tricky, because depending on the user it could go both ways. I've seen in 3D rendering that a good configured Gentoo still is slower than Fedora, which was a surprise to me, and not before a pro really squeezed every ounce of possible tweaks Gentoo won with a slight margin. I suppose we would need a lot of comprehensive benchmarks to make any real conclusion.
You could probably say snappier, but even here it doesn't necessarily mean that Gentoo actually is faster or snappier than a binary distribution; at least I don't know how to prove it. I tend to agree with a noted member of the Gentoo community who's conclusion is something down this line: if you're really interested in what your hardware is doing Gentoo is a great option.
I am, but still Gentoo has never really got my full attention. However I wish that Gentoo will continue make steady progress. Personally I'm, like so many others here it seems, impressed by Arch (writing from it now). I don't how to catalog Arch: is it an easy or difficult distribution? I can't say, but I was up running it in no time. Pacman is about the fastest package manager I've used: and bam! all dependencies and conflicts are resolved. Gentoo has a huge collection of packages, but Arch including user repositories gives me so far all what I want.
Now I've been serious for too long, let's play some Frets-on-Fire!
72 • No subject (by TC on 2007-08-20 21:18:43 GMT from United States)
As for Sabayon, I've had only one success story with trying to install it on several computers. That one time, I did like it and have hopes that Sabayon will become easier. I'll keep trying the new Sabayon releases.
73 • Well said #55 (by rev on 2007-08-20 21:19:22 GMT from United States)
Grade AA #55's post was more concise and frank than what I would have said but right on the money.
I tried Gentoo a long time back and Grade AA is correct in stating that the users are elitists. In fact they are rabid elitists who are quick to flame any one who has a problem or needs help or questions Gentoo's viability in any way. I had a great deal of trouble and got flamed on the forums for not being "SMART" enough to use their distro and questioning Gentoo's viability. In addition, the elitism and politics has made the Gentoo community like a disfunctional family. Daniel Robbins, the chief architect resigned from Gentoo came back and resigned again and the in fighting is so bad that I wonder how they stay together at all.
The manual is so long that it would take 8 years to master. If I had 8 years, I would be going to medical school and not messing around with Gentoo.
As for the speed and power, countless Linux Magazines and journals have at one time or an other published articles that stated either there was no speed increase or that it was not significant enough to warrant the hassle of running the distro.
My experience was so bad that I will never attempt Gentoo again ever.
I constantly try a new distro and revisit old ones. I even give inadequate distros a retry after some time has passed to see how they are doing but Gentoo was just so abysmal that I refuse to even look at it ever again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_linux
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_linux#Criticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Robbins_%28Gentoo_Linux_founder%29
74 • No subject (by Nanlee on 2007-08-20 21:41:51 GMT from Canada)
Re: #68
You asked:
"Who stated point blank Gentoo was "more advanced" than brand -X ?"
Answer:
Read the introduction part of "Major Distrubutions" section at the top of this site.
"You likely would not believe (nor should you) any "benchmarks" indicating {SUPPOSED} superiority of platform"
You are right no one should believe the "factless" claim of the speed of Gentoo unless number and method of benchmark comparison are provided.
BTW, I have Installed Slackware, Vector, MCN on my old PII without reading any manual. Actually, the most impressive one is the MCN which runs KDE on the P2-233 with 150Mb RAM smoothly while with the others only XFCE gives the reasonable speed.
"# 55 IS A TROll
Neither are credible if not substaniated by provable facts
#3 is understandable - & matter of unkowns
#55 is not acceptable to most adults"
On the contrary, #55 is understandable and shared by the others.
#3 is not acceptable as personal attack should be allowed on a technical forum.
"operating systems are NOT a religion
to be wor(d)shipped in blind faith as were the purported biblical tablets ot stone !"
You are right again. So stop jumping up and down or through a stone at people who dislike a distro.
"Gentoo never was for casual useage "
Just the opposite, Gentoo seem to be aimed for a small group of people as a hobby and never meant for mainstream. While many other distros are obviously targeting the mainstream market. They will never say, if you don't like this one try something else.
75 • Gentoo Power vs Complexity (by M Sears on 2007-08-20 21:44:40 GMT from United States)
I have been using Gentoo for about 2.5 years now. I'm sure I STILL don't know all there is to know. After a few weeks of trying to get to know everything, I realized it was pointless and just learned as I went. As such, I developed a love-hate relationship with troubleshooting; it's quite annoying to hit a brick wall once you've updated this-or-that, or are trying to get a new piece of hardware working, but it can be one of the most rewarding experiences you'll ever have while computing.
I find Gentoo's power to be quite addictive, and the other mainstream distros I've tried (admittedly I've never used Slackware) now seem very watered down. I love portage, despite its small quirks and occasional flaws. I refuse to switch to a distro which defaults to packages instead of compiling. Even if I only get a 5-10% increase in computing speed/power by compiling from source (which I believe is conservative) it's worth it for two reasons: it's fun, and it can be a huge benefit when compiling my own programs or running a complicated code (certain high energy physics programs, for instance).
That's my piece. The majority of Gentoo users I've met are very helpful and feel very passionate about Gentoo as well.
On a side note, I decided to give Sabayon a try a week ago, and so far it seems great, with the only exception being the difficulty in compiling/running one's own kernel without genkernel.
76 • Missing work in #74 (by Nanlee on 2007-08-20 21:50:14 GMT from Canada)
Missing a word in my comment#74. It meant be "personal attack should NOT be allowed on a technical forum.
77 • Why I don't use Sabayon or NimbleX (by GaslightJoe on 2007-08-20 21:51:42 GMT from United States)
I look at the new distros, but, if they will not see my graphics card (chip really), Intel i810, then I move on. Neither NimbleX or Sabayon could give me a readable screen that would allow me to install. I have coasters!
78 • My feelings about gentoo (by Emeric on 2007-08-20 21:52:52 GMT from France)
I've been using gentoo for 6 months after having run debian for 6 months...
-Has Gentoo gone too far in making itself powerful?
I don't think so, Gentoo is aimed at users that wish to have a lot of control, but i don't feel it's too complicated. When i came to gentoo i had been using GNU/Linux for only 6 months or so, and everything went well. I'm gradually discovering the powers of the distribution.
-Has its complexity discouraged you from running it?
obviously, no
-If you run Gentoo Linux on your desktop, can you truly say that you know all there is to know about it?
Clearly no, i learn every time i use it. That's why i use it. It's a distribution that allows the user to know well the way the OS works.
-Has the famous Gentoo documentation ever let you down?
Sometimes yes, but only on subjects for which other distros documentations were not really better. The forums and the wiki are also very useful.
As a matter of fact, that's exactly how i came to gentoo : solving problems sometimes led me to solutions given in the gentoo community...
-Or do you enjoy its power so much that you would never consider another distribution?
I'd say i will probably stick to gentoo for a long time. But i also need to test other distros. I'm still very fond of debian too for instance...
79 • re: 59 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 22:10:59 GMT from United States)
"1. Why is Gentoo power users so upset when others point out the problem they got with Gentoo? What would you say if you called Microsoft tech support telling them what your problem and they get upset and bashing you?"
Oh great, you think that gentoo users are your tech support. You must have migrated from windows, many of those types think that the community owes them free help for their free software. Sigh...
80 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-20 22:29:19 GMT from Canada)
The hot topic of the week, Gentoo/Sabayon:
As usual, facts are not stated, opinions & egos dominate the board.
Well, if blogs are preferred, here's one more
Re #73 etal:
And that bad experience (Gentoo forum responce YOU felt) surprises you ?
It is endemic in ALL !
The Developers - vary..... they are (surprise) humans.
Your reactions, in combination to own frustrations soured the mix
BTIM - I have never asked for help there or elsewhere - NOT because I didn't
have real difficulties -
I found, given enough patience, eventually solutions would be found
If not, work-arounds were employed until I did have the time (determination) to delve for answers.
Now, that may sound to others as "elitist"- or just plain doggon stubbborn -
but it beat the H-- out of coming across as whining & whinging over my petty hurt feelings ?
We have all seen it - "i'm jesta....cananhyoone help me P L E A S E
This when the same question was answered three posts above.
If/when the query IS intricate, old-hands fall all over themselves
being firstest & bestist (dry, highly esoteric - hopefully requirng advanced code snippets) to reply
If the answers are NOT pleasing or hard to follow/fast enough: -
too confusing, or hard on ego:
> "to hell with this distro, it sux en -yur allabunchofstkup snobs" !
Sound familiar ?
For the record - I detest "profiling" users as "nuB" or "Geeks"
We are all only at whatever stage in interests that time stolen from
the necessities of life allows.
Again, N T I M > For me, a large part is NOT practical, if it was easy as "click here, done":-
a more "user-friendly", (maybe even a better source for information) would be the TV
Too many advertisment breaks, but if exasperating there is always (gasp) books
Or as a non-computer addicted person might say-
Get a life !
81 • Gentoo (by Vytas on 2007-08-20 22:51:55 GMT from Lithuania)
Time wasted - if lengthy compiles, baackground them..
Yhayha Gentoo+compile in same time -> slowest distro of them all.
I tried gentoo but when is started to compile KDE on my 500Mhz cpu that compilation was longer than my patience.
And at all few seconds faster program perfomance is not worth all hours of compilation time.
82 • Compiz in Ubuntu (by Peter Cruickshank on 2007-08-20 23:16:48 GMT from Canada)
Whether or not Compiz works also depends on whether XGL is included. I am an unfortunate ATI user, and I'm sure you all know the rest of this sad story...
83 • Re: Compiz in Ubuntu (by Thomas on 2007-08-20 23:58:28 GMT from United States)
Graphics: ATI Radeon Mobility 7500
3D with either Beryl or Compiz: Works fine!
I don't see your point.
84 • RE: 69 Ladislav, you used Sabayon - NOT Gentoo (by ladislav on 2007-08-21 00:02:04 GMT from Taiwan)
you condemn one distro
I didn't condemn anything. I wrote about my experiences (both good and bad), expressed my opinions and asked questions. The idea was to start a discussion (preferably a civilised one, but that's too much to expect on a Linux board :-( ), so that we can all learn and share what we know. As you can see, some people agreed with the sentiment expressed, but others did not - that's always the same no matter what distro is the subject of an editorial.
I do like Gentoo Linux. I thought I made it clear in the article, but some of those who commented here must have missed that part.
85 • The same distro? (by hugh on 2007-08-21 00:02:48 GMT from United States)
I not a power user or a geek. I decided to try out Linux after paying way too much for an English version of XP in Japan last year. I tried quite a few distributions at the start, and used Ubuntu for a while. However, I eventually settled on using Gentoo - and have a desktop, a laptop and a (remote) server all running it.
So why? Actually, while there was a little learning at the start, I find Gentoo the easiest and simplest distribution to use. It's not about 3 second faster boot times or anything like that - it just works and stays up to date. Gentoo documentation is really great and shows even the rawest newbie how to build things which would be hard otherwise. I tried the same things with other distributions and it was just - harder.
Sometimes when I read about Gentoo on Distrowatch it seems like people are talking about something else. It isn't my experience that Gentoo is hard or broken. I regularly install other distros (and BSD), but haven't found one I like better yet.
86 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 00:17:34 GMT from Canada)
I could not find any "advanced" statement - just many references to
it's "inherent end-user power"
If compiles of large Apps are too lengthy -there are (were ? never needed them)
binaries on both CD & in repositories. (somewhere)
But things change, perhaps they are no longer on-line available
Many users have more than one (even if old) computer, for them why not try using distcc
Mine is not cutting edge (1.5 mhtz) DOES have ample RAM which is not taxed
like a CPU in compiles.
There is NO slowdown while compiles run (mostly) flawlessly in background
This in full KDE desktop.
TOP shows the CPU often Temp hits 90% use
It was demanded benchmark proof of Gentoo performance claims -
and derogatory border-line trolling- it was "FACT"
Gentoo does NOT offer performance gains
Then in same breath, we are supposed to take as "fact" unsubstantiated claims
of speed on users own old iron ?
It was no less than Mr Bodnar who implied Gentoo was targeted for/by hard-core
enthusiasts
I stand by my convictions, Gentoo takes no more than a quick read of docs then
(confirmed by others, here & all over) a stage3 install will take roughly 30 mins.
At that point, a "casual user" may well be over present abilities to CFG the system
IF they hate reading !
So yes - Gentoo is NOT suitable for casual use.
Performance gains were never my prime reason to use - it was icing on cake.
How much - not really evident at first, until months of use of Vector-
First to assess suitability for someone else -
Then hanging out on their forum in "gratitude for free use" demanded personal familiarity
to understand inners B4 opening yap while answering help posts
Then Gentoo was neglected, booted back, was surprised to note it WAS definitely more responsive
Again, it was not the "speed" that appealed, but the ability to do anything desired -or find quick solutions.
Want timings - supply yours first> YOU want "speed" over power.
I want stability & few headaches if/when upgrading
I don't want to be spoon-fed - not by binaries nor if own compiles vs E-builds are desireable
Most Gentoo users seem to value as much control as possible, not depend on others ?
Would I switch, very doubtful - if anything will "master" own minimal liveCD to run in RAM
While waiting for laughter to die down -
If speed is the objective & reached - how is it used -
any "delay" is mostly between the users ears
(I can verify my own hang-ups)
In responce to numerous "elitist/condescnding/arrogant"......_
I see only polite, well considered views from the Gentoo "confessors"
What others see is anyones guess - but some ain't pretty !
87 • Re.#79 (by Nanlee on 2007-08-21 00:32:33 GMT from Canada)
Who said about asking for help? People are just pointing out the problems they got on a forum, such as the article that started this discussion. Did Ladislav asking for free help? He just discribed is experiences with Gentoo. My question is very clear, why are those "power" users upset when they see such a story? Why are they starting "power" attack in such a technical discussion? The reason I mentioned MS was just to let those think what they would feel if someone else attacking them. Another question is other distros also facing critics, but, why they did not attack people like the Gentoo community.
By the way, I never asked help, and I did install at least five or six distros without asking any help from any Linux community or reading any manual or even help files.
88 • Distro & Compiz (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 00:33:04 GMT from United States)
I tried many distros (atleast 100), and so have many. Everybody converges to the distro they like and their hardware works with.
I have notebook and a desktop, both difficult to configure in any distro. I have a personal requirement that the distro should be able to tinker with a little,, but I do not want to tinker a lot like Gentoo/Slackware. All of my machines do not like Debian/Debian based anything. So after so many trials, everytime I converge to Fedora. mostly everything works out o the box. Others I can fix.
#83: I use ATI radeon xpress 200m and it needs XGL. Not all ATI cards works with AIGLX. I have a 64 bit machine too.
89 • Re# 86 (by Nanlee on 2007-08-21 00:41:50 GMT from Canada)
Quote from the introduction section of the article "Major Distributions"
"On the other end of the spectrum, Slackware Linux, Gentoo Linux and FreeBSD are more advanced distributions that require plenty of learning before they can be used effectively."
90 • No subject (by memena on 2007-08-21 00:43:15 GMT from Philippines)
@ Anon from Canada
Are you trying to write
Distrowatch poetry?
Maybe you should ease off
on the newline man ^_^
91 • Gentoo's complexity (by William Tetrault on 2007-08-21 01:41:38 GMT from United States)
As a Gentoo user since April 2002, I have enjoyed its power but become increasingly dismayed at the increasing complexity of its installs. Perhaps the only reason I've been able to continue using Gentoo without problems is that I had the base of knowledge that has expanded since v. 1.1 at the same rate that its complexity has increased.
92 • Gentoo completely NOT worth it (by kittyKAY4 on 2007-08-21 02:19:58 GMT from United States)
Regardless of what some fanboys will claim of "speed" improvements, the fact remains that Gentoo has a horrible habit of building a slow system. Besides the fact that it takes far longer to install a package or update a system in gentoo because of the nature of the system, the packages are rarely any better, and in my testing they've been worse.
About once a year I've been installing a fresh gentoo system (I used gentoo back from just before 1.4 was released and had it as my primary distro for a year before I wised up). I've been a linux user since 1997, I know my way around gentoo and linux in general. While the distro has some rather nice improvements and applications, speed is the last reason to be using Gentoo, it has consistently benchmarked lower than Fedora, Arch or Slackware each time I've tried it. In a variety of benchmarks (from httperf to compiling a kernel to timedemos in games) it has performed about 10-25% slower than something like Arch and since Fedora 3, slower there too, in almost every damn test. I took all the proper driver/version tests and tried everything from stock kernels to a single kernel that I recompiled and used on all the distros. It's almost shocking how much slower it is.
93 • Arch and Debian (by Thomas on 2007-08-21 02:48:28 GMT from United States)
Will someone please tell me how Gentoo's better than Arch, and better than Debian? In my opinion, those are the two best distros as far as fundamentals go, and both have pretty stocked repositories, and I only have limited experience with Gentoo. Arch seems to be the pinnacle of simplicity, while Debian is probably the most robust system available...
94 • Gentoo for all? (by prairie_dad on 2007-08-21 03:14:33 GMT from United States)
no, of course it isn't for all, for everyone. what is? but how could it be too powerful? I mean, it offers tons of choice. I could never be called an expert, having used BSD 4.x Unix in the 80's and then not touched Unix/Linux till about 2 years ago, just for fun (most of the time in between on various macs, but also tons of windows.) In fact, it's old G4 hardware (I own seven towers, twin 533s and 733s, up to 1.5 GB RAM and multiple HDs in them) that I'm putting Gentoo on. Yeah, it builds slowly. Otherwise, I have essentially _zero_ complaints. It is a fascinating project, with tons of great people in it. More power to them. My only concern is about the politics around drobbins and the foundation, heaven forbid it should fall apart. Far cooler than Ubuntu. I like Debian, too, of the releases that support PPC, and Fedora, too, though I think emerge and .deb are better than rpms.
95 • re 61....I don't think its that old, check your "Longhorn" codes (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 03:18:37 GMT from Australia)
>61 • efytimes posts should be deleted (by Desillusioned from Canada)
Hey, here's a new interview with Torvalds, you think. (They're usually boring, but anyways...) Of course, this Efytimes crappy magazine, like many Linux magazines, doesn't date its articles. Then you come to this:
Q: The soon to be released Windows Longhorn is touted to be Microsoft's answer to the Linux threat, as Windows NT was for Novell in the 90s. Are there any improvements planned in Linux, keeping the technology advancements of Longhorn in mind?
http://www.efytimes.com/archive/146/news.htm
and realize that the article must be something like 3 years old.
God damns efytimes crap!<
Longhorn was Microsoft's codename for the following versions of Microsoft Windows:
* Windows Vista
* Windows Server 2008
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Longhorn
I would say he has windows Server 2008 in mind here. If you read the whole interview and the topics covered, you would see that it is fairly current.
96 • I will to try (by Luis Medina on 2007-08-21 03:19:11 GMT from Mexico)
Las tow weeks i did try an old PC to some mini distrios like Vector Linux and Zenwalk but i do not have a good experience. The reason graphics slow too much the PC and games (on Vector) just work on 3D accelerated video cards. So let it down.
Now with this 100 MB distro I want to try but Any one has a good (internet, mail, IM, document) experience on a minis distro?
Regads.!
97 • Puppy 3.0 (by JAG on 2007-08-21 03:30:50 GMT from United States)
WOW! Looking forward to it!
98 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 03:34:10 GMT from United States)
I run Debian and Gentoo together - Debian gets out of date, Debian is harder to get flash etc working, at least for me on AMD64.
99 • 98 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 03:50:52 GMT from United States)
>> Debian gets out of date, Debian is harder to get flash etc working, at least for me on AMD64. <<
Not sure what you mean by "out of date", but I do hear that a lot. Even if you use Debian Stable (and stable naturally means not cutting edge) you can still install packages from backports or testing. Most users should be running testing on a desktop. I have fewer problems with Debian Lenny than do my friends running Fedora, Ubuntu, and others.
As for Flash on a 64-bit system, of course the problem is that a 64-bit Flash is not available. There are fairly simple workarounds, however, that I have used. The most difficult thing is to use Google to search for documentation.
I can't imagine running Gentoo because of just these two reasons. I suspect that you like something else about Gentoo.
100 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 03:51:50 GMT from Canada)
Well there we have it folks -#91 > in incontrovertible post-supplied proof !
Gentoo is NOT "faster" (for them).
The "advanced" remark was not part of the lead article
& ostensibly not qualified by other than populist beliefs.
If unique or 'cutting edge' criteria was applied, perhaps Puppy
should have been listed there (as "advanced" technology approaches)
I sadly do agree with #91 - it is complex, Esp if little prior Linux use
Why anyone would want to constantly re-install Gentoo if such bad results is a mystery.
It does say in essence what I have hammered home all along -
speed is (should be) the last reason to try Gentoo.
If distros used & results are bandied about - no proof shown -
I have used Linux (since 95 ?) Gentoo from version 1.2
Many "ahem - advanced" definitely mainstream offerings-
and some fanBois touted speedsters -
Puppy, Vector - who can remember all, or wants to in (Holy-Grail) flirtations.?
Little noted to differ one way or other - except configuring oddities.
If people are influenced by "reviews" or popularity contests -
do they choose their 'soul-mates' the same way ?
Personally, I couldn't keep up with a fast woman
For much the same reasons many can't keep up to speedy distros.
How many times must females repeat > 'it's NOT what you have........
Feedback is vital - for developers
How can bugs be reproducibly proven if distro- hopping is the norm !
101 • @99 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 04:04:37 GMT from United States)
I guess the workarounds were just easier in Gentoo than Debian, and I find that in general.
102 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 04:37:08 GMT from Canada)
Appologies to #91
The (too) speedy comments should have been RE #92 ~ Kitty
> (My) Speed alone is not good.
103 • The Point of Gentoo (by Draca on 2007-08-21 04:45:56 GMT from United States)
I thought the point of Gentoo was to create a metadistribution for creators of distributions to use -- in other words, to give them an alternative base to work with when they make a distribution. Is that an incorrect impression?
104 • Upgrading Sabayon after months of neglect vs. doing the same with Arch (by rglk on 2007-08-21 04:57:33 GMT from United States)
Re Ladislav's Sabayon (/Gentoo) install breaking after he attempted a full system upgrade after 4 months of neglect ...
I ran into a similar situation with my Arch Linux install ... but it had a different outcome.
I installed Arch most recently in Oct. 06 and then attempted a full system upgrade in late Dec. 06. This upgrade failed: after executing it the KDE desktop crashed all the time. I don't know what went wrong. No problem - I restored the earlier install from partimage backups and kept on working with this increasingly outdated system, in the course of time installing dozens of additional packages.
By June 07, the system was beginning to show some cracks. In particular, one or two frequently used multimedia apps weren't working so well anymore, and I simply wasn't able to fix them easily - old, outdated libraries presumably clashing with freshly updated apps. I should note that I had really been abusing Arch - it is advisable to do frequent full system upgrades every week or two to keep the system fresh.
It was clear to me then that a thorough refreshing of the system was in order, and there were only two choices: either a full system upgrade (pacman -Syu) or reinstalling the current version of Arch from scratch. I was convinced the latter would be needed but I was dreading it, as it would require a lot of effort to restore all of my previous customizations. But since I had little to lose in trying a full upgrade of the existing system, I went for that first. It turned out that this involved upgrading >400 packages and downloading >1GB of upgrades, and I was almost certain that it would break my system.
Surprise - when I rebooted after this massive upgrade, the system ran flawlessly and faster than ever, and all the previous problems had vanished. In fact, the system ran as if it had been freshly installed from scratch. And it has continued to perform flawlessly in the nearly two months since that major upgrade, with another two dozen packages installed since then. Very impressive.
105 • To Gentoo or not to Gentoo, is that really the question? (by Landor on 2007-08-21 07:25:50 GMT from Canada)
First off RE: 53:
I would have to beg to differ on your comments on the Gentoo community. I followed a thread regarding setting up a Via Unichrome Video Chipset and for a few pages this user was coddled by 2 or 3 people for EVERY single question, even when the most simplest of his questions WERE answered in documentation he faithfully neglected to read. In my personal opinion the people helping him in the forum went far beyond what would be considered proper assistance. It was fairly recent too, by chance, you weren't that user were you?
I would have to join the majority here Ladislav, on a few points regarding Gentoo.
Your one comment about learning Gentoo and it not being able to be carried over to other distributions is incorrect and I would hope it's either been misinterpreted or just an error, given your level of expertise with Linux.
When I returned to Linux after having left it for quite a number of years I did so with a few goals in mind. First to return to an environment that "can" heavily rely on the CLI. Second was to teach my son to be more than a button clicker and those with extensive knowledge will concur that with a CLI a computer can be the greatest learning tool ever known to man not because you have to type, but you have to think, and more often than not, creatively, with your mind open to things you never before thought of.
Lastly and this pertains to my comment about the comment about it not being related to other distributions (what you learn). I came back with the biggest goal of building something quite similar to an LFS system but even more than that, totally from scratch with no base distro. The system I want, exactly how I want it, with exactly the foundation I want.
Gentoo has helped me even in just a couple months get a lot closer to bridging the gap from what I previously knew to what I need to know now with linux to make my last goal happen. This area has mainly been in building X and the desktop, with all functionality needed. Sure many don't have this desire but I am very happy Gentoo is there to help me, and it's amazing documentation which echoes just how involved the community is.
How many users who just install a normal distribution would know off the top of their head how to do something as simple as partition a hard drive, put the various file systems on those partions, create the hard drives, mount them, etc. I knew this before Gentoo of course, except for some of the newer file systems. But I would hazard a guess that pretty well every Gentoo user knows how to do this. Could that be said for every other distro?
I know you used Gentoo and for some reason you stopped using it Ladislav. Was it something specific? Is there information about it in another issue of DWW that I could read? I'm not saying this is why your review isn't pro-Gentoo, I've seen it stated here before and have been curious is all.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
106 • 2007 Desktop Linux Market survey [Completed] (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 07:45:30 GMT from Australia)
1. Which Linux distros do you use on your home or office desktop system(s)?
1. Ubuntu (including Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu) 30.3 %
2. openSUSE 19.6 %
3. Debian 11.7 %
4. Gentoo
5. Fedora
6. Mandriva
7. Knoppix
[...]
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0813200712407
107 • OS X user in love with Gentoo (by urcindalo on 2007-08-21 08:08:22 GMT from Spain)
Let me tell you my story. I've been a Gentoo user since January 2005, almost for two years now. Before that, I was (and am still at home) a Mac OS X user. As a Mac user, I was used to the way the fink project would install GNU software in OS X: fetching the source code, compiling, installing and finally configuring it. In fact, I was not only used to, but in love with it.
When I got my first ever PC in January 2005 (you've read correctly, my first non-Apple hardware ever), I decided to install FreeBSD or a Linux distro, even though I had never, NEVER, used FreeBSD or Linux before. I had never used Windows as my regular OS, neither, and didn't have the slightless will to change that. But I needed the latest version of VMware to be able to run the two Windows-only programs I need (very specific scientific ones). That eliminated FreeBSD as an option, but thanks God I found Gentoo. To me, it is FreeBSD with a Linux kernel.
With no idea about PC's in general (even the kind of knowledge the dumbest Windows user have about his/her machine), I was able to install a beautiful, powerful, easy-to-maintain, free-from-bloat, 64 bit OS just by FOLLOWING A GUIDE TO THE LETTER. I wasn't even used to concepts like primary or extended partition, because in the Mac world we don't have that cr*p. Much less I had any experience setting up the BIOS or stuff like that. You get the idea.
I installed the stable 64 bit AMD64 version, bootstrapping it from stage 1, which is considered to be even more complicated than its regular 32 bit sibling. So please, don't tell me it is hard.
It took me two working days from scratch till I got a customized KDE, and never, ever, have I felt the need for a reinstallation, nor have I had any problem with big updates like from glibc 2.3.x to 2.4, or from monolithic Xorg 6.8.x to modular 7.x, etc... It is just a matter of following the phenomenal guides the Gentoo project, the Gentoo community and the several Gentoo wikis put at your disposal.
You just need to know how to read. Maybe this is asking for too much? I don't think so, and the reward you get is immense.
Regarding the great amount of time it needs to update, how often do you see KDE or Xorg updated? Once every year? Is it that terrible to compile them once, or at most, twice a year? What's more, who or what prevents you from using your computer when the update is taking place? Do you stop working just because the MP3 player is running? So, why stop because gcc is running? I can't see the point.
In fact, I update my system on a daily basis. Only once a month or so the update is bigger than two or three small packages. The total process takes less than 20 background minutes.
I bet people whining have never used a stable Gentoo (x86, not ~x86), and I guess their problems arise, mainly, from not knowing how to install the ~version of any particular package without turning your whole system into ~x86 (very well documented, by the way).
Want to try with a safety net? Just install Gentoo in VMware. There's even a documented guide, as usual.
YOU CAN INSTALL Gentoo. I did.
108 • Ooops! (by urcindalo on 2007-08-21 08:12:32 GMT from Spain)
#107: Let me tell you my story. I've been a Gentoo user since January 2005, almost for two years now.
I mean, 3 years. I pressed the wrong key :)
109 • RE: 105 To Gentoo or not to Gentoo (by ladislav on 2007-08-21 08:17:39 GMT from Taiwan)
I know you used Gentoo and for some reason you stopped using it Ladislav.
No, I've never used Gentoo full-time. I used to use Sorcerer, but that was a while ago (2002, I think) and the reason I stopped running it (and switched to Debian) was that it took too much time to maintain. I did enjoy using it though, but with the growing readership of DistroWatch I find myself struggling to find time to tinker.
As for the transferability of knowledge acquired while using Gentoo, one interesting indicator would be the Linux Professional Institute certification. As far as I know, it only covers RPM and Debian package management tools, but not Portage. Or am I wrong? Does anybody here know for sure? Of course, the general stuff you learn while installing and using Gentoo is applicable elsewhere, but I was specifically referring to Portage, gentoolkit tools, USE variables and other Gentoo-specific utilities and configuration files.
110 • Forget Gentoo (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 08:26:51 GMT from New Zealand)
I want to hear more about the faulty RAM. I hope it wasn't part of the brand new system that we heard about a couple of months ago.
111 • Today's update (by urcindalo on 2007-08-21 08:34:32 GMT from Spain)
For instance, here you are today's update (AMD64 stable arch, 2007-08-21):
===========
These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:
Calculating world dependencies / * Sorry, but staroffice does not support the LINGUAs: en es_ES
... done!
[nomerge ] kde-base/kde-meta-3.5.7 USE="accessibility nls"
[nomerge ] kde-base/kdemultimedia-meta-3.5.7 USE="arts xine"
[nomerge ] kde-base/artsplugin-akode-3.5.7 USE="kdeenablefinal -debug -xinerama"
[nomerge ] media-libs/akode-2.0.1 USE="alsa flac jack mp3 oss speex vorbis"
[ebuild U ] media-libs/libvorbis-1.1.2-r1 [1.1.2] USE="aotuv" 0 kB
Total: 1 package (1 upgrade), Size of downloads: 0 kB
Would you like to merge these packages? [Yes/No] Yes
================
The total process has taken less than 2 minutes!! Next I ran a general no-interaction-from-user cleaning tool to remove old source code, delete not-nedeed-any-more dependencies from my system, clean out configuration files in /etc, etc..., followed by a revdep-rebuild, just in case a previously installed package needs to be recompiled against the updated libraries (rarely the case).
Doing this every day has kept my system rock solid for more than two years. Never a reinstall, never a blocking failure, nothing. Just a perfectly usable and easy to maintain system.
By the way, the staroffice warning refers to my own staroffice ebuild, put into my portage overlay. That's flexibility!!
112 • RE: 110 Forget Gentoo (by ladislav on 2007-08-21 08:45:07 GMT from Taiwan)
It was. Luckily it's still under warranty.
113 • The main issue I fear with Gentoo is that it is not portable: (by dbrion on 2007-08-21 08:57:04 GMT from France)
if one wants to have an application working on any Unix like system, the traditional way can work (at least, for CLIs)... once perl, cc, and make are installed (they often exist, as there has beeen for 10 yrs some users'pressure -I just verified it with HP UX-...). It is just a matter of disk space: one launches it at 18H, and the next morning, everything is installed where one likes or one tries to fix some very specific issues (which make compilation times not that relevant in any case.......)
( One could even uncpio src.rpms if one would not download from the original site => this solution is portable.... )
Learning new commands for partial installations, even if they are powerful, etc,etc, give you a feeling (this is a term I like) of control, etc,etc... ?
Perhaps learning what is inside the application one carefully chose is more useful....
114 • RE: # 107 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-08-21 09:38:02 GMT from Italy)
"I've been a Gentoo user since January 2005, almost for two years now. Before that, I was (and am still at home) a Mac OS X user. As a Mac user, I was used to the way the fink project would install GNU software in OS X: fetching the source code, compiling, installing and finally configuring it. In fact, I was not only used to, but in love with it."
Lucky you. Here fink fails almost every time.
Except for that, I do compile the occasional application in my favorite distros (mainly Debian and SUSE, the latter doesn't have Gparted, for instance).
While I very rarely fail, compiling is never a pleasant experience, because you must hunt for all sorts of libraries before you succeed.
115 • RE: 109 (by Landor on 2007-08-21 11:07:30 GMT from Canada)
My apologies for not interpreting your intent right. That is probably one of the biggest drawbacks to the digital medium. Sometimes what is meant isn't read how it was thought or intended by the author. :)
Also, again, my error. I had read of your use with Sourcemage and also thought I saw something about Gentoo in there.
I was just looking at the NimbleX cd and would've liked to tried it out as a "normal install" but see far too much hassle in setting up the way they do since it's a live cd script based distro. ie: just copying it over, having the boot loader know where it is on the drive, then creating a partition for any changes you make to it to be permanent. I know that sounds funny coming from a guy who runs Gentoo as his main distro currently, but it's true.
I couldn't believe how fast it was and it goes to show you how much you can do and how small you can make something that nobody has been able to yet. There's really no end to development, if there's an idea someone hasn't tried that someone comes up with, there's got to be a way to implement it. You gotta love linux. Especially when this little live cd came from a one guy show who has next to nil for resources and is desperately in need of support. I was thoroughly impressed.
Thanks for the info/reply
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
116 • RE: 106 • 2007 Desktop Linux Market survey [Completed] (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 11:13:33 GMT from Germany)
It's interesting to compare those results with the last year's results.
2007:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0813200712407
2006:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0821200617613
Looks like GNOME is now more popular than KDE. Maybe the upcoming major version upgrade of KDE will change the popularity to KDE's advantage again?
As for openSUSE's phenomenal increase of popularity (from 10.1 % to 19.6 %) -- perhaps the efforts of one particularly active openSUSE advocate to keep his/her community well-informed about the survey has helped there a little bit? ; )
http://www.suseforums.net/index.php?showtopic=37847
http://forums.suselinuxsupport.de/index.php?showtopic=59170
117 • Gentoo again (by davecs on 2007-08-21 11:49:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
I used to use Gentoo. I started with Mandrake 9.x and changed to Gentoo after a time. It does take ages for things to compile but I can't say that (at the time) the instructions ever let me down, and as people have said, the upgrades, though time-consuming were rock-solid.
Of course to get the best out of it, you had to do some reading up, know your computer's hardware, and what you wanted from Linux, before you could really set the USE flags so in my case there were several false starts. But it was a great distro.
That said, I don't know whether it still is. I gradually switched to PCLinuxOS because I looked up Texstar's old site (having used his rpms as a Mandrake user), I know Tex is an admirer of Gentoo and we used to have some interesting discussions!
When I tried PCLinuxOS, I started by copying over all the graphics to Gentoo. After I while a tried the speed tests and found that the faster speed of Gentoo is a myth, it's barely noticeable unless your compiled distro doesn't get things right.
Because Gentoo uses source, things do tend to compile against each other, and this brings its benefits (no devel packages etc).
I'm using PCLinuxOS now, but my time with Gentoo was a good experience.
118 • DW deleting comments again. (by anon on 2007-08-21 12:34:00 GMT from United States)
My comment that was critical of DW was deleted. What's the matter ladislav? The truth hurt?
119 • cool (by nimblex on 2007-08-21 12:35:37 GMT from United States)
i went to nimblex.net and selected the custom nimblex. i got to select the software i wanted the wallpaper and even the password. it created the iso for me and then i downloaded it. i burned it and it is extremely fast! very cool!
120 • RE: 118 DW deleting comments again (by ladislav on 2007-08-21 12:41:40 GMT from Taiwan)
I honestly believe that if one has nothing useful to say then it's better to remain quiet.
Before submitting your next comment, please take a moment to think over whether it brings anything valuable to the discussion here. If not, then please don't post it.
121 • Re 116 "It's interesting to compare those results with the last year's results." (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 12:43:11 GMT from Australia)
Also interesting is the amazing increase in the total number of voters for the 3 polls to date.
2007 Desktop Linux Market survey
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0813200712407
Number of voters: 38500
Poll ended: Tue Aug 21 00:32:00 2007
2006 Desktop Linux Market survey
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0821200617613
Number of voters: 14535
Poll ended: Tue Aug 29 07:09:54 2006
2004 Desktop Linux Market survey
http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0215200495458
Number of voters: 3841
Poll ended: Fri Jan 14 12:45:21 2005
122 • Gentoo (by Anonymous at from )
@103: you're right, it's a meta-distribution, which is one reason for its complexity in comparison with "other" distributions: the comparison is a bit like comparing apples with oranges. take any distribution you like, ditch the standard packages, install hundreds of unusual packages from source with your own configure options, and see if things don't start getting "complex".
i stopped using gentoo because there was no standard, widely-used configuration of settings/packages to allow for reliable bug testing, so inevitably gentoo's so-called "stable" branch would still throw up major problems from time to time. complexity in itself is not a problem: it's only a problem when it leads to instability or whatever.
the editorial asks, "if you run gentoo...can you truly say that you know all there is to know about it?", as though *not* knowing all about it were a bad thing. nobody...not richard stallman, nor linus torvalds, nor anybody else...knows "all there is to know" about GNU/linux. is that a bad thing? of course not. as i see it, complexity is not gentoo's problem: gentoo's problem is that for every sensible gentoo user there's at least one irritating fanboy pumping up his e-penis with cflags, and it makes for a community that doesn't pay attention to the important stuff...like making it possible to build a *dependable* system that (for example) a bank would be happy to use and maintain.
i think it's great that gentoo respects and supports the users' freedom to deviate from standard packagesets and do their own thing. it's not so great at supporting users who need to be able to count on their systems to work. but, so what? other distros cater to that need. gentoo is what it is...good at some things, bad at others...neither bashing it nor being a cheerleader for it is justified.
123 • RE 93: From Arch 2 Gentoo (by david_e on 2007-08-21 13:23:19 GMT from Italy)
I have just switched from Arch Linux to Gentoo my main laptop, while I still use Debian Etch on the other laptop.
The main reason for the switch is because Gentoo is a source distro with a rolling release system. I really liked the rolling release system in Arch Linux and Debian testing, but I do realize that a rolling release system with a binary distro is asking for trouble. Every time you want to install something you have to be really sure that every lib is at the newest version available. And every time you update some lib you could experience major breakages because the updated packages that links to that lib could still be not available and there is not something as a "revdep-rebuild" available in Arch Linux. Yes there are the "testing repos" where developers puts the new libs waiting for all the packages that relies on them to be ready, but nevertheless I have experienced some breakages that forced be to rebuild manually some packages...
Mixing repos in a binary distro is also asking for trouble: you never know what these package are build with. If you have many packages from many extra repos and you are using a rolling release distro be prepared to face big problems as the possibility that all this repos are syncronized is near almost zero.
This is why I use gentoo. I stick to the x86 arch, have some stuff from ~x86, I do only critical updates when I don't have time for big rebuilds, and my system is stable and up-to-date.
I do find gentoo difficult? No. Apart from the USE flag stuff, is easier than Arch Linux. Gentoo is absolutely easier than OS-X + Fink.
Does building everithing from source make the system faster? Maybe. I don't really care about speed, Arch Linux was faster at boot time and had almost the same speed when using gnome. Gentoo has a better glxgears, but building Xorg from source in Arch Linux probably could be sufficient to fill the little glxgears gap.
I have also tried Source Mage, but I think USE flag method is superior as they give you a way to set your preferences in a consistent way at install time.
124 • Flammers (by afonic on 2007-08-21 13:23:39 GMT from Greece)
I believe DWW comments is a place to talk about the latest installments of Linux distributions and answer tha questions ladislav usually posts.
If you want to start a flame war over why your distro is the best, claim that distro X sucks or that DW is fighting that distro or supports the other (of course because of the satanic motives of its founder - personal opinion if not an option) PLEASE use the web forum of your choice.
I hate to drink my morning coffee reading the comments and having to skip through those made by fan boys without any mood to discuss but just to insult people.
ladislav, you are correct deleting those comments, trust me 99% of your users support such actions.
125 • Trying things new (by Baul on 2007-08-21 14:25:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
I am writing to you using Ubuntu and I have also discovered some "Slackware" using Wolvix - in a sense they are both cool and capable.
I kinda liked the live CD for Geetooo which was given away in a magazine - I tried it but the interface wasn't for me personally.
However I just want to thank the team - who made it possible - and show some respec to themt - Geetooo is no mean feat - it is large".
126 • @125 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 15:25:13 GMT from France)
s/Gee/Gen/ s/respec/respect/ ......
Et dans votre langue maternelle...
cf [26 • No subject (by re: #8 on 2007-08-20 13:43:26 GMT from United States)
learn to spell]
127 • Re 123 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 15:34:01 GMT from Finland)
<>
Actually, you can set global preferences (like gentoo's USE flags) for optional dependencies also in sourcemage. Suppose, you want all KDE programs that can use aRts to automatically add it as a dependency, then you write this command:
sorcery default add "" arts on
This causes a new line to appear in /var/state/sorcery/default_depends and it has practically the same effect as if you add "arts" in your gentoo USE flags.
It's just that sourcemage defaults to local (per application) preferences that the sorcery package manager picks up, applies and memorizes as you go along installing new applications.
Personally I just find the sourcemage way much more intuitive than the gentoo way. But I'm sure the gentoo way is fine, too, if you have enough patience. ;-)
128 • Comment to previous post (127) (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 15:38:20 GMT from Finland)
Oops. I misplaced the html tags. Post 127 was supposed to begin with this quotation:
"I have also tried Source Mage, but I think USE flag method is superior as they give you a way to set your preferences in a consistent way at install time."
129 • More than one type of Linux users.. (by Geoff on 2007-08-21 15:44:32 GMT from United States)
..I don't understand Gentoo. I took one look at the 35 page instruction
manual for it about a year ago and did try to get the gist of it.
I couldn't without googling so much that I began to realize that what
was there was not for me.
I'm adept and respected in my chosen trade in healthcare, but some
Linux concepts escape me unless I spend an inordinate amount of
time researching those concepts. I don't want to do that to have a
working computer, and I don't have to do that to have a working
computer.
What's described here as "bashing" Gentoo is not what I'm doing,
I'm just trying to remind people that Linux is a varied and dynamic
entity in the world of computing, thank heaven. There's something
for all of us, from Linspire to Gentoo, from Xandros to Slackware.
Why bash any of it just because you've found your zone along
that spectrum of user configurability vs "just works out of the box?"
130 • RE:127-128 (by david_e on 2007-08-21 15:57:57 GMT from Italy)
I didn't tried enough SourceMage. I didn't knew that.
In fact I liked SourceMage a lot, but felt more comfortably manually editing /etc/make.conf at install time. Probably because I came from Arch... (Yes I know it's possible to manually edit SourceMage configs file but it's not meant to be used that way so...)
131 • Sabayon/Gentoo (by Walt Daughenbaugh on 2007-08-21 16:12:02 GMT from United States)
I am new to Linux and just trying to learn the distro's. I'm nearly 60 years old and self taught when it comes to my PC knowledge. I have built about a dozen pc's from scratch, so I'm not a complete newbie. I really like sabayon 3.4 or the sabayon business 1.0, but I ran into exactly the same problems as you did. I got a message that 6 files in /etc config needed to be updated, see man make.config to learn how to update these files. Well I haven't found it yet! You are exactly right, most documentation as a level of knowledge that will exclude many potential new users.
132 • Re: 128 Replace misplaced html tag? (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 17:02:29 GMT from United States)
Let's see if this works....
133 • What if the closing tag is here? (by Geoff on 2007-08-21 17:56:32 GMT from United States)
or here?
134 • I think yours worked, post132 (by Geoff on 2007-08-21 17:58:12 GMT from United States)
I put closing italic tags in the subject line and comments area... I don't know if I
fixed it or you did. :)
135 • Re 130 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 19:53:12 GMT from Finland)
Yea, you can configure most aspects of package management in sourcemage through a menu but there are also some advanced features (like the global preferences for optional dependencies) that need to be set via the command line. To get this menu, you just type "sorcery" as root. The same menu also lists all the available packages and you can mark packages for installation or removal. It's actually pretty cool. In gentoo you configure the package manager by editing config files.
PS. Thanks to the person who managed to fix my italics goof. I think I know what caused it and I try not to do it again. :-)
136 • gentoo (by Anonymous on 2007-08-21 21:44:50 GMT from Romania)
people try to understand. if you just want to keep it simple gentoo is probably not for you.i first tried gentoo 1.4 but since i didn't have a permanent internet connection i sticked to dvd-distros(multiple cd's) such as debian/fedora/slack....but i never lost interest in this beautiful distribution. so after seeing all the fuss that has been made in the past months i decided to install 2007.0. beautiful!!! it took a few hours but it's worth it NOT FOR THE SPEED but the process of installation itself, the documentation part ( portage is marvelous), USE being as far as i can see the piece d'resistance . the transparency in gentoo makes me really feel like i own the box.
Conclusions:
1) if it doesn't work for YOU it doesn't mean it's not working!!!!
2) constructive criticism is great. please never disrespect the gentoo developers... because through their work we have this wonderful piece of distro.
3) regardless of the place in the distrowatch hit rank gentoo is one of the top distro s continuing innovation and bringing something new to the fsf community
4) if you expect it to be flawless and you're disappointed goto 1) or support the community
137 • Gentoo (by Ray on 2007-08-21 21:53:24 GMT from United States)
I have been running Gentoo for about 4 years. I will also tell you that my first linux ditro was Gentoo. Yes, I learned about linux with a bootstrap/compile from source distro right from the start. I woul dnever consider going to any other distro. I have used Sabayon for a few installs, but only because it is based on.. guess what? Gentoo :)
Ray
139 • New Processor (by JAG on 2007-08-22 00:05:59 GMT from United States)
I wonder which Linux distros will be among the first to play with this processor...? Check it out guys!
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20070820094637.html
140 • Gentoo (by psic on 2007-08-22 00:30:28 GMT from Slovenia)
Great DistroWatch as ever, I really enjoyed the part about Gentoo. I pretty much agree with everything written.
But I do use Gentoo myself. I've used it for two years and in that time I've gotten so used to it, I can't imagine switching to something else. I don't spend much time updating things or fixing them, even when I was away for a month, the update went smoothly. And even if something should go wrong, I know where to start looking (both on my system and on the net).
I don't use if because it might be marginally faster than any other distro, but because it works very well for me. Compile times are not a problem, I let stuff compile (emerge) in the backround and continue working, and besides, I find it can be very useful sometimes. :-)
If (when) I get a new computer, I'll probably put something like Linux Mint on it first then slowly add Gentoo. But I don't think I'll ever recommend Gentoo to someone, unless they really know what they're doing.
141 • on compiling... (by psic on 2007-08-22 00:31:28 GMT from Slovenia)
Oh, why compiling can be very useful:
http://www.xkcd.com/303/
142 • Gentoo and compiling (by Johnny Hughes on 2007-08-22 00:43:49 GMT from United States)
ummm ... just for the record, all the other distros out there are also compiled :D
Most of them are just compiled for the users, not by the users.
Gentoo is great, but it is certainly not better just because the user compiles it.
You might be able to squeeze a little bit better performance out of a distro that is compiled with special gcc options ... but even if the performance gain is 10%, is that really worth all the extra time.
Maybe it is, maybe not.
Don't get me wrong, I like Gentoo and used it for quite awhile, but I just don't think that a user compiled distro is necessary any longer. Now, if you want to compile your own, by all means please do, but personally, I'll take a tested distro that I know has already compiled somewhere else.
143 • Making it faster with gentoo (by joker on 2007-08-22 01:02:03 GMT from Germany)
It's fast like a thunder...
http://en.tiraecol.net/modules/comic/comic.php?content_id=162
144 • gentoo "fast like a thunder" (by foo on 2007-08-22 03:47:48 GMT from New Zealand)
lol. slackware packages are i486, and while it's true that the loading times for some of the apps are a tiny bit slower (typically a fraction of a second, but maybe a whole second for big stuff like X) than packages built march=athlon-xp (or whatever), i had to time them to notice the difference. even if you're very observant and can actually tell that your custom-built X is loading a tiny bit faster than a standard build, what Johnny asked above is still the question: is it worth it? how many times a day do you start up X? twice? five times? ten times? even if you fire it up ten times a day, that's maybe ten seconds a day your custom build has saved you. that's a lot of weeks before you've actually made up for the time you spent building it in the first place.
now, if the resulting system was rock-solid reliable like slackware, i'd call that worth it. but it isn't, so to me, it isn't. if reliability's not your thing, gentoo's minuscule speed advantage may make it a good choice, but personally i don't think speed gains that small really matter. gentoo's strength is portage...the flexibility and ease of customisation it gives your system. the price you pay for that, naturally and inevitably, is less of the reliability that comes from using stable, well-tested standard packages.
145 • gentoo fanatic (by khelix on 2007-08-22 04:13:23 GMT from United States)
Hello everyone. I started using gentoo almost from the start, version 1.1a. I do admit that it may seem a bit complex to a new gentoo user. However I have always been a command line kind of person. About 70-80 percent of what I do is on the command line, anything from administrating the network of gentoo machines I have to burning cd's and dvd's. I mostly use fluxbox as my window manager for its ease of use and configuration.
146 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-22 04:44:53 GMT from Canada)
So now the attention is diverted to stability ?
Stability on ANY platform is more dependent on the user's ability or lack of - to configure
Most of which = they "upgraded the whole system in one shot !
As did Mr Bodnar -his was due to hardware -
MAJORITY was their bad sofware dependency over-sights
Gentoo may be as "rock-solid" as any others
as testified by years running without forced re-installs
And borked systems reported by many unfortunate self-inflicted sufferers on all operating systems
If running "masked" E-builds or own binaries not installed via Gentoos' system tracking-
It is called "bleeding - edge" for a reason !
147 • Gentoo (by BadSquishy on 2007-08-22 05:24:04 GMT from United States)
I've been using Gentoo as my primary OS on three machines in my home for a couple of years. I do agree that Gentoo is complex, particularly the installation process for the first time.
But I believe the old adage that was originally applied to Slackware applies to Gentoo: "If you run Fedora or Ubuntu, you'll learn Fedora or Ubuntu. When you run Gentoo, you learn Linux."
I recently setup a server at work that used Ubuntu Server as the OS. I found that you could install this operating system amazingly fast and easily, but that getting the applications set-up was no more complicated than in Gentoo. It is similar for desktop systems. Once you learn the package manager for you selected system then most important desktop packages are well integrated with your choosen desktop environment.
My biggest problem with Gentoo is the lack of quality control. I have not used any other distribution as my primary desktop system for years, so it may be that this is a common problem, but with Gentoo when there is a large system update (for instance the bump from Gnome 2.16 to 2.18) you can expect something to stop working correctly. Prior to my use of Gentoo I used SUSE 8.2. Now, at that time the conventional wisdom was that when a new version of SUSE came out you were better to backup your data files, wipe your disk clean, and do a new full install. So with Gentoo the advantage was that you get your updates incrementally and never have to re-install the operating system. The "re-install don't update" wisdom may not be accurate anymore, especially for .deb based operating systems instead of the dreaded .rpm
That is all,
BadSquishy
148 • Classification of Distro (by Sheares on 2007-08-22 06:26:42 GMT from Singapore)
Currently, distros are classified by name only. It will be good if the listing is classified by types or purposes. E.g. grouped by Hardened linux distros, Realtime Kernel distro, Firewall distro, tiny/small package and fast distros, etc.
I would find this great for me to search and test distros.
Million thanks to all hardworking community members contributing linux distros.
Sheares
149 • Re 39, 45 De la répétition naît la bouffonnerie. (by dbrion on 2007-08-22 06:39:18 GMT from France)
{45 • xxxxx (by xxxxx at 2007-08-20 15:20:40 GMT from Australia)
The system also contains a Telugu text-to-speech software integrated with the desktop; this makes it possible for even illiterate persons to use the operating system, access the Internet, read documents, etc...
My question is : "how the hell does an illiterate person read documents,,"
Fair suck of the savaloy , Swecha please correct your statements
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
}
O Bel X,
J'ai déjà vu ce texte il y a quelques mois, vous faites dans l'innovant, l'intelligent, le constructif.
Peut être que si vous l'aviez formulé en telugu, vous auriez eu des résultats..
A noter que le travail de traduction, sutout en langue asiatique, peut être énorme -et respectable- par rapport à 'je copie, je mets dans un serveur et je clame que je suis le meilleur' [ 'travail' des distributions populaires].
Notez aussi ,
O Bel X,
que ces synthétiseurs de voix n'intéressent pas que les illettrés (quelle que soit la définition : dans les années 80, le passage du Français à l'Arabe comme langue officielle faisait craindre à des enseignants de devenir ... officiellement illettrés).
Ils peuvent interesser aussi les aveugles, et ceux qui parlent au téléphone de page web.....
150 • Re: 39 • xxxxx (by Ariszló on 2007-08-22 07:51:00 GMT from Hungary)
My question is : "how the hell does an illiterate person read documents,,"
As dbrion wrote, like the blind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_accessibility
Actually, there might be native speakers of Telugu who read and write English but not their mother tongue.
151 • Gentoo, compiling everything .. and stuff (by DeniZen at 2007-08-22 09:48:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
Well (again!) its each to their own.
years ago, I set up a Gentoo system
It was never 'quite right', never felt very stable - maybe that was down to me - and of course everything took so long to compile
I learned a lot doing it. but I'd rather not spend my time doing that now! I shudder at the thought
There is the 'temptation' to be constantly fiddling and tweaking - tharts fun, but it aint productive.
Lets be honsest Gentoo does nothing to promote Linux as a viable alternative Desktop for the Average Joe/Jill, but it is an excellent - self-led course on Linux system admin.
I never found Gentoo to be appreciably faster in real-world use than Slackware (at the time).
I'm sure Arch, Slack or 'BSD are are strong candidates for a situation where you have to get your hands dirty and learn enough stuff, and get a real fast system, but dont spend all day and all night fiddling. Nor becoming obsessional.
Actually come to think of it, the 'obsessional-ness' of Gentoo seems to be reflected in the views of many a Gentoo advocate. (I'm not saying thats baad n'K!)
Hmmm does a choice of Distro reflect a little of the users personality perhaps ?!
Ergo - each to their own .. ;)
152 • Dead Distros on DW (by Sandman on 2007-08-22 10:13:50 GMT from Pakistan)
just found another dead distro on DW , Komodo Linux
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=komodo ( http://www.komodo.x10hosting.com/) and I wonder if projects like these deserve to occupy DW valuable pages?
Instead I would say give place to distros like Klikit-Linux ( http://www.klikit.org/ ) on distrowatch which is promising & has potential.
Ladislav is the best judge.
153 • Qu 151 :Where can one find a picture of "the Average Joe/Jill" (by dbrion on 2007-08-22 10:21:40 GMT from France)
or does (s)he live in the Loch Ness, like many (highly interesting) linux-myths?
BTW, a forgotten feature of Gentoo is her excellent and useful documentation (often referred to by other compiled distrs....)
154 • Gentoo is the future (by Alexander Haensch on 2007-08-22 10:47:58 GMT from Germany)
Yes Gentoo is a more difficult distribution than most others, but if you once managed to install your graphical desktop, you've learned alot about a linux operating system.
Many People say: The disadvantage of gentoo is the timeconsuming compilation auf your application!
But these people arent Gentoo users. Infact Linux is a very good multitasking OS. During an massive "emerge" the user feel no slowdown, while surfing the web or writing a letter. Today multicore processors, large RAM space lead to shorter compiletimes. I realised a emerge speed up from my old Computer to my new one by about 8 times!.. This development show me, that in a few years, when 8cores are a normal thing, compiling your software is not a timeconsuming thing anymore.
About the configfile "specialisation", i dont think that gentoo has a very special configfile setup. its more standard than on opensuse. and i dont think that you can throw away your knowledge if you go away from gentoo. The things that a gentoo user learns during his time with the system last forever.
Gentoo is for me the best distribution, but it is a very special one!
i use it for 3.5 years now and installed it on 3 desktops and 1 server.
155 • Gentoo is a very nice distro but.. (by Krakatos on 2007-08-22 10:54:39 GMT from Italy)
... I think that many gentoo users that post here are missing the point.
I do not agree with the people who, more or less, bash gentoo. And I do not think gentoo is a bad distro. I tried it for a little while, it's very nice to learn linux. But the point is that gentoo is NOT a distro for the masses.
The masses do NOT want to learn command-line. Much less about USE flags. The masses do NOT want to compile things, they want to install by point and click. The masses do NOT want to learn how the system works at low-level. Anyone saying that is obviously crazy.
So, gentoo is not a distro for the general public only interested in using a text editor,browsing the net, watching a movie or listening to a song. It is a really nice distro but obviously has another target. Which is fine by me. It's just not a distro for anyone.
156 • I lllike it :] (by Vytautas Jakutis on 2007-08-22 12:15:37 GMT from Lithuania)
The learning curve is worth, because there is absolutely no need to look back to other systems or distribs (I have previously used windows, then debian/ubuntu). And now that I believe I know (after 7 months from the first and only one(!) install) every bit of controlling my system, the complexity on Gentoo feels like an advantage, I really need true flexibility, knowledge, control of a unix. It is also worth because theoretically you can use portage on top of any unix (Macintosh, *BSDs, ..) kernel. Also the human resources while developing gentoo (portage tree) are used efficiently, thanks to the nature of ebuilds. I believe it is a natural way to distributions - use original sources and apply patches only where it is necessary. The compilation time is totally irrelevant, as normal modern dual core cpus minimize it sooo much.. :] So the key point that gentoo brings is efficiency in all aspects.
157 • Control and continuous updates seem inconsistent. (by dbrion on 2007-08-22 13:04:55 GMT from France)
I suppose revolving automagical upgrades are for bug fixing.
There are never bug reintroductions (regressions)? What do maintainers eat, to be 100% of their time intelligent?
Would you advise a revolving upgrade OS to your friends?
to your bank? (when a bug occurs, the extra-informatical consequences may be so important that the bug should be understood (and its existence proved) before fixing....)
158 • Re 153 - Gentoo documentation (by DeniZen at 2007-08-22 13:10:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yep, Gentoo documentation is very good
But the point is it would simply _have_ to be very good, otherwise how many 'Average Joes from Loch Ness' would ever find a way to get a Gentoo system going? , let alone build upon it / Admin it ;)
So its "chicken vs egg". Gentoo documentation is detailed and comprehensive, because Gentoo is a detailed and comprehensive entity, and could not be in wide usage without that documentation.
Me, I prefer to pop the Debian Testing Disc in and 30 mins later spend an hour or less setting it up to suit me. - and then getting on with using it from then on.
Some of the knowledge I use to set up my system came inderectly from that steep curve period way back when I used Gentoo (and from setting up NetBSD too).
Maybe .. 'You gotta go there to come back' ;)
159 • RE: 155 (by Landor on 2007-08-22 13:19:29 GMT from Canada)
Where did it once state that Gentoo was a distribution that is dedicated to the masses because they want a command line interface?
Ladislav's comments were based around two distributions here. I also seemed to forget that. Sabayon and Gentoo. I would believe you are the one missing the point. His premise (ie: the title) Power vs Complexity and one not justifying the other.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
160 • Arch vs Frugalware (by Max on 2007-08-22 13:53:06 GMT from Australia)
Does any of the Arch users here have any experience with Frugalware?
I'm an Arch user myself, but haven't yet tried Frugal
It seems to be very similar to Arch - not just because of pacman - but it also seems simple, i686/x64 based, rolling release etc...
Can anyone share their experiences with Frugalware, and also on how the two distros compare?
BTW, I think ladislav has been nothing but honest... It's hard to put out one's opinion these days without being bashed from all over the place.
I say, ladislav, keep doing what you do best... People will always find things to complain about, for the good or bad, and that's just the way it is...
I like and respect Gentoo and have used it for 2 years in a row, although I now use Arch and Ubuntu. The only thing I didn't like about Gentoo was the slow update of some of the bigger packages like Gnome - I don't know how things are these days, but four months was a lot to wait when you're eager to try the latest version of your favorite desktop. Also amd64 was not as well supported as x86 back then...
Peace
161 • RE 158 I hope I was not too harsh (by dbrion on 2007-08-22 14:01:21 GMT from France)
but the idea of averaging discrete entities makes me feel very uneasy....
I have the impression that part of The {not that monolithic} Masses (I suppose they were carefully weighted by 155) are very audacious, some are curious and want to know how a Linux is made. Perhaps the best way, today, is to have a very comfortable one installed, and try to make another one (and LFS offers a good manual/shopping list, with estimations of compiling times -to know whether one has to go to a restaurant, make some errands, etc..-).
I found a more simple manual at u-linux.org who very clearly explains how to make a tiny distr. For detailed explainations, he very often linked to Gentoo manuals...
162 • Source based distros (by Anonymous on 2007-08-22 16:28:45 GMT from Netherlands)
I came to the Linux world via the back door after falling into system
administration of Sun, HP and then SGI systems. In all that time I was
regularly downloading, compiling and installing useful open source
utilities as well as debugging and providing feedback to the authors.
Now I'm running Lunar at home, where the package management
system is written in bash and simply wraps the download, compile
and install stages for you. If you want to customise a package, or it
fails to build, you can work out how to fix it in your own $HOME and
then edit the packages BUILD files to do what you want (or need).
My frustration with binary and GUI-based installers is that there is not
always an easy way to find out what has gone wrong if something fails
to install properly. [This is why I find Windows particularly frustrating!]
163 • #146 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-22 18:28:22 GMT from Canada)
"146 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-22 04:44:53 GMT from Canada)
So now the attention is diverted to stability ?
Stability on ANY platform is more dependent on the user's ability or lack of - to configure "
Here again, someone try to defend a distro with over-reacted, foundationless statement. Are you the one who stated that "operating systems are NOT a religion to be wor(d)shipped in blind faith"? Then stop this kind of nonsense.
This statement about stability has no technical merit at all. If inappropriate configuration causes an OS to crash, this is not a stability issue. Anyone with minimum knowledge would know that. You probably confused stability with compatibility or something else.
What #136 stated in its conclusion is right " if it doesn't work for YOU it doesn't mean it's not working!!!!". But remember the opposite is also
true "If it works with YOU it doesn't mean it will always work with machines".
164 • complexity of Gentoo (by Zoltan Magyarics at 2007-08-22 19:35:09 GMT from Hungary)
Hi folks,
I installed and managed Gentoo on a small-scale web server with quite old hardware, and it did fine. I was amazed with the portage system, all the necessary updates just ran fine automatically, with the appropriate emerge commands in the crontab. The documentation was fine, and I really appreciated the detailed installation instructions.
I have to admit that I learnt the most about Linux using Gentoo (the major part with Slackware), and I think that it's not true that one can learn Gentoo-specific commands, those are useful even now, using Kubuntu.
Of course, one has to read a lot of docs using Gentoo, and it's obviously not the one-click installation that we love in Gentoo... :-)
My suggestions is that if you have time, you want to learn Linux, and you're patient enough, try Gentoo, worth doing so! And if somebody wants an out-of-the-box desktop in an hour, just use something else - these choices make Linux the best system.
165 • @160 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-22 21:10:26 GMT from France)
I'm new to Linux, new to Arch and have no Frugalware experience. But you'll find some Archers and/or "Frugalwarers" posting about that in the forums.
IIRC Frugalware's release system is different than Arch's: they issue a (upgradable) stable version every 6 months, in place of Arch's 100% rolling mechanism. These posts said that Frugalware was (at least) as fast as Arch.
166 • NicE Desktop, my first sixteen hours. (by Fractalguy on 2007-08-22 21:19:15 GMT from United States)
NicE Desktop booted up into Xfce with 1280x1024 resolution as I've come to expect from Debian dased distros. It had set swapoff and the screen showed very small fonts everywhere, a little hard on old eyes.
It's apps are fairly current: Iceweasel 2.0.0.5, OOo 2.0.4, gedit 2.18.2, and most other apps I need to proceed life as usual from a live cd. However, I had to add a pdf reader, kpdf - not sure how that degrades RAM issues since the distro has mainly Gnome apps. (I thought I had marked xpdf in synaptic, oh well, blame that small font again.)
Also I added geany with apt-get and nvu from a deb on my usb-thumb. Adding the workspace pager to the bottom bar showed 6 spaces, up from one. I often run with 12 but so far that has been enough.
I had an app crash (banshee) as I ran low on RAM (it took Iceweasel with it). So I started swap. It is nice that Iceweasel can restore the session. :) I had bansee playing radio music last night, but it crashed when I tried to give it a long playlist. I think it must have tried to copy all the music to RAM instead of just playing one a t a time. I'll try it again later, after I post this. :)
I decided to replace the wall paper (too loud for me) with a recent astro image: /root/Desktop/stuff/trifid_gabany_big.jpg ( http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap070813.html ).
Looks like flash works, I watched http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/08/my_tonguelashin.html. What a hoot-em-up shoot-em-up. :) However, this large temp file also could have later contributed to my RAM crisis.
There isn't an installer, so this distro has to fly as a quick temporary session on live cd. So far it looks like it can, especally since one can add extra apps as needed and very easily access storage media. This distro compares almost up with Xubuntu and Mint-Xfce. BTW, watch for an Xfce version from sidux where they are selecting light apps and staying away from all GNOME and KDE to keep it light.
Finally, dbrion, as for http://u-linux.org/ and uL-Guide.pdf, I again ran out of RAM when I tried to read it. :/ But no problem after kicking some bits free. A quick look - it is interesting, thanks. I'll read some more after posting this.
167 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-22 21:33:18 GMT from Canada)
Re 163
What IS your Prob:
Red herrings have been stated to Gentoo "proclivities"
"Speed" - stability -compile times- initiate lag- Docs
Conveniently ignoring those are not "inherent" to ANY platform
It was neither mindlessy leaping to Gentoo defence, nor denigrating to others
Knowing what IS taking place - then the abilty to change anything
is in hands of user's willing to suffer the pains of complexities
of ANY O/System
If Mr. Bodnar only desired insights, he could have perused many sites
He has other interests foremost - keeping DW interesting,
stimulating reader responce, incidental use of resources for trial
considerations
Last weeks' comments were atypical of 'non-sense' raves/rants
Confine own responces to technical, limit personality attacks
Your last viewpoint was more relevant
168 • Gentoo (by Ian Posner on 2007-08-22 21:50:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
Every time Gentoo come out with a new version, I attempt to install it. Full of hope, I get to a point in the install process where the damned thing freezes or produces an error which will not permit the install to continue.
Now I'm far from a newbie: 15 years (mostly Windows) experience for major corporations on enterprise systems, and latterly quite a bit of Ubuntu exposure. Yet still I can't get a single gentoo install to succeed, even using the stage 3 tarball.
The problem with gentoo is not the technology, but rather the chaotic and poorly disciplined band of geeks that keep the project going. It's no good having technology that's really great if nobody uses it (and let's face it, virtually NOBODY uses it in production).
It's quite clear that the Gentoo mob are absolutely clueless about how to increase the popularity of the distro.
What Gentoo needs badly is a sugar-daddy like Mr Shuttleworth, who will guide the distribution to success by paying real money to entice the geeks into working on what needs working on, rather than that which they want to work on.
In a nutshell, if most people have a SINGLE glitch in installing a distro, they'll drop it like a stone. After all, if you're not yet committed to a distro, then why persevere with something that looks like shoddy quality from the outset?
169 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-22 22:05:39 GMT from Canada)
Vitriole: # 168
Facts :
http://blog.funtoo.org/
170 • I need Support on Mexico (by Luis Medina on 2007-08-22 23:01:15 GMT from Mexico)
I use Ubuntu Server on my equipement and I need to locate support to my servers. Im from Mexico and I need help form anyone to locate a provider on my country.
171 • here for you (by IT news on 2007-08-22 23:05:31 GMT from Philippines)
don't mind those an agreeable comments of them.why don't you view them as an ogre comment thats perhaps can help you work something out.
172 • Gentoo (by Anonymous on 2007-08-23 09:03:24 GMT from Malaysia)
What is Gentoo? Is it like Ubuntu?
173 • Gentoo guys, are you running out of puff? (by Obsever on 2007-08-23 09:05:02 GMT from Australia)
You have DW forum floor this week and you are not even "walking" today.
Come on, have another go! Your first two days have been impressive, IMO.
:-)
I never knew there were this many Gentoo Fans/Fanatics.
Impressive show of Gentoo force/s - keep it up!
174 • RE 172 (by DeniZen at 2007-08-23 10:07:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
"What is Gentoo? Is it like Ubuntu?"
I know that was a joke, but actually, _fundementally_ .. it is - is it not ? ..
Different Journey maybe, different scenery for sure ... shared destination
175 • Wow the Gentoo article really got the discussion going! (by davecs on 2007-08-23 10:57:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'd like to qualify my earlier comment by saying that Gentoo is not for everyone. It has the potential to create a top-notch OS on your computer, but not everyone will be successful.
As I said earlier, I don't regret the time I spent with Gentoo, and if (heaven forbid) PCLinuxOS ever goes down the pan I will probably attempt to re-install Gentoo before I try anything else.
I'll never test unstable stuff like I do for PCLinuxOS though, I just wouldn't have the time, but once up, with overnight updates etc, Gentoo is a distro you can bend to suit your personal needs if you're prepared to put the time in.
But as I said it's not for everyone, and people should accept that before flaming one another.
176 • RE: 168 (by Landor on 2007-08-23 11:17:36 GMT from Canada)
"Every time Gentoo come out with a new version, I attempt to install it. Full of hope, I get to a point in the install process where the damned thing freezes or produces an error which will not permit the install to continue.
Now I'm far from a newbie: 15 years (mostly Windows) experience for major corporations on enterprise systems, and latterly quite a bit of Ubuntu exposure. Yet still I can't get a single gentoo install to succeed, even using the stage 3 tarball."
So let me get this straight, you have been involved with computers for a very long time, worked on enterprise solutions, etc. You were so intrigued by Gentoo you just had to try each and every new release. With each failure your interest didn't wane and you tried another new one once again, but, you couldn't try it manually? You couldn't go and ask in the forums for a solution? I find this very odd, it's really not that hard. My son who is a 14 year old point and click Windows kid installed it manually, and he wasn't as overtly interested as your comment represents you to be, and you couldn't even ask or do it manually?
"It's quite clear that the Gentoo mob are absolutely clueless about how to increase the popularity of the distro."
Really? I beg to differ. By DW's standings, and if you look at it on the basis of not being a fork, and factor out all forks in say the top 15, that would put Gentoo as an "ORIGINAL" distro at #7. Quite remarkable for a distro that doesn't know how to increase it's popularity. I would say, even at #13 given the unjustified fear of the learning curve 13 makes it a pretty popular alternative.
"What Gentoo needs badly is a sugar-daddy like Mr Shuttleworth, who will guide the distribution to success by paying real money to entice the geeks into working on what needs working on, rather than that which they want to work on."
Now my information may be outdated, and someone correct me if it is, Shuttleworth only has 1 fulltime developer on the payroll, and the majority the community, and think about what the dell deal may have represented in Dollars... But, you think distro's need big financial backing? Is that the way of Linux in your eyes?
"In a nutshell, if most people have a SINGLE glitch in installing a distro, they'll drop it like a stone. After all, if you're not yet committed to a distro, then why persevere with something that looks like shoddy quality from the outset?"
Looks like shoddy quality? Again I find this odd. You are here bashing a distro that you time and time again tried to install. You have enough experience to understand a manual install but didn't try it. You didn't look for support. I think your anger lies in the fact that you EXPECT everything to be done for you, so why even try a distro that takes some effort other than the Mindless Shuttleworth Shuffle Linux has grown to adore.
Also, you talked about the developers. You spoke of shoddy quality. When you can come back here as a proven developer of a distro that is similar to Gentoo and it has blown it away and is even outranking your one special flavour for first place, then come and tell me how poorly ANY distro is managed, developed, represented to the public, poor in popularity.
Until then, in my personal opinion, you are a man who wants to complain without even making the slightest effort to correct a problem that you consistently had.
And for the record. Yes, I use Gentoo, but I'm gonna look at Sabayon for a bit, for personal reasons.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
177 • Mandriva 2007.1 (by r,koendering on 2007-08-23 12:53:19 GMT from Netherlands)
Mandriva 2007.1 x86-64 has no possibility for loading a 64 bit flash.
Could Mandriva ask Adobe to create one?
Regards,
R. Koendering
178 • RE: 176 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-23 13:08:10 GMT from Finland)
"Now my information may be outdated, and someone correct me if it is, Shuttleworth only has 1 fulltime developer on the payroll, and the majority the community"
Wikipedia says that Canonical Ltd. has 50+ employees. Not all of these are developers, of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_Ltd.
179 • #168 - troubles with Gentoo install (by ray carter at 2007-08-23 14:18:14 GMT from United States)
Yes - there are two prerequisites to install Gentoo:
1) ability to read
2) ability to follow instructions
180 • Wrong! (by Oiving on 2007-08-23 14:37:04 GMT from United States)
179 • #168 - troubles with Gentoo install (by ray carter at 2007-08-23 14:18:14 GMT from United States)
Yes - there are two prerequisites to install Gentoo:
1) ability to read
2) ability to follow instructions
and..
3) desire to build your car, part-by-part, from scratch.
That's an exageration, of course.. hyperbole. But a goog point
can often be embedded in hyperbole.
181 • har! (typo) (by Oiving on 2007-08-23 14:38:18 GMT from United States)
"goog" = "good" today, I guess. :O)
182 • CF 179 (by dbrion on 2007-08-23 14:48:50 GMT from France)
That would mean Gentoo is a good tool , in the professional word, to
* recruit sysadmins
* fire systyrans (often users build the apps they need from source, and are sometimes obliged to follow many instructions, depending on the package...)
But in the leisure world?
183 • #176 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-23 14:49:41 GMT from Canada)
Landor:
U are barking at the wrong tree. What #168 stated was really some of his experience and some frank and friendly advices.
His point is: if someone with substantial expose to computer related work, like himself (sorry if it should be herself), had that much difficulty installing Gentoo, imagine what a average Joe/Jill will do. He(she) thinks, logically, they will probably drop it. Because difficulty or failure in installation make the distro (any distro) "LOOKS LIKE" shoddy quality. Make sense.
Based on that, he/she pointed out that it is important for Gentoo to work in the right direction to increase popularity.
What is wrong with his comments? A good advice is like medicine. What did the commercial for the cough medicine say? "It taste awful, but it works"
U mentioned your son's success with installing the Windows. That demonstrates exactly how important the first try is. Just imaging what the whole Linux community will do or say if Windows has a glitch in its installation and will MS blame the users?
Here, the problem/controversial around Gentoo, is not how difficult or how time consuming (I don't believe it is that difficult), it LOOKS LIKE to me is the attitude of Gentoo fans or power users towards not so flattering comments. Just take a look of some the uncivilized "over-reactions" of them in this week's comments, they ranging from "cluelesslly"/"factlesslly" blaming user for stability(#146) to personal attack(#3) and applause for personal attack(#62), It understandable that it is not pleasant to hear problems with a distro you worship, but blaming that user will not make the problem go away. Nor will it increase Gentoo's popularity. Think about it.
And about your comments reg. DW rankings. You have missed the whole point. The keyword in #168 is "TO INCREASE". Therefore, it is not where the ranking is that matters, It is whether the ranking is going up or down that matters.
Talking about popularity, just remember this: it is only a very very very small fraction of computer users who actually use or even know about Linux. Even being at the top of the ranking is not popular at all. A frog setting at bottom of a well thinks the sky is only as big as the well. Don't be that frog. See the world.
184 • re:180 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-23 16:10:27 GMT from United States)
"3) desire to build your car, part-by-part, from scratch."
If building a car was as simple as "emerge gnome" we would all build our own cars. You must be thinking of lfs, please just use analogies that actually make sense.
185 • To #172 and 184 (by Nanlee on 2007-08-23 17:45:53 GMT from Canada)
How about this:
Ubunto and the other binary distros are more like eating at a buffet resterante.You can pick and choose your food (application) from the table (package management system). They are pre-cooked (compiled) by the chiefs (programmer/developer) to suit what they think is the taste (needs) of most customers (computer users). On top of that, they do have source code (half processed ingredients) available. If you want to cook (compile) something yourself, they are there for you. You can even adjust/change the ingredients (modify the source code) to suit your taste (needs).
On the other hand, Gentoo and other source code based distros are more like an a all-you-can-eat Chinese hot pot or all-you-can-eat Korean BBQ. The pre-washed or marinate raw ingredients (programed source code) are on the table (Portage?) or brought to you, and you pick, choose and cook (compile) them. You can mix and adjust your sauce to better suit you taste or to experiment. You have better control and flexibility here. You do need some skill though. Depend on how you cook them, the results may or may not be good.
As you can see, part of what Gentoo did here, is to make this "pick-choose-cooking" process easier, while Ubonto and the other binary distros are more emphasized on better pre-cooked taste. Gentoo will help you to have more fun while the "bunto"s will give generally good taste.
Have you heard about food allergy or intolerance? Some food may not be suitable for some people (hardware) and also, some foods should not be eaten together. If eat something you are allergic to or not tolerable, or eat two incompatible foods, you may feel sick or just bad taste. That, my friends, brings up the compatibility and stability issues.
I really like good food, thought this may help to understand the differences between the two types of distros.
186 • analogies! (by DeniZen at 2007-08-23 19:59:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
crikey ..!
some people like to use their PC and their OS (and retain some control / choice).
To others, its myabe all about the process and the achievement as much as - or possibly even more than - anything else.
A well configures and 'complete' (whatever that may represent) Gentoo system _is_ most definitely an achievement.
Its a case of weighing up their priorities, and requirements against the efforts involved..
and being prepared to put all that effort in all over again if something doesnt work out - and lets face it - how many users new to Gentoo get it 'right' first time? !
A Gentoo system would simply be waaay too much tinkering for my taste or requirements - these days. There was a time... but not now.
For me, Debian is at least a bit of a challenge to enjoy, and some opportunity for control, but enough ease too .
I would hazard a guess that the Gentoo 'domestic' user profile is maybe a tad more youthful than perhaps some other distros?
A relatively old lag like me has not got the time nor the inclination, nor the energy - nor could I justify the time spent to the other people in my life who depend on me.
187 • RE: 183 (by Landor on 2007-08-23 21:39:11 GMT from Canada)
My point was missed and I believe that his comment was truly more along the lines of blatant bashing than a constructive criticism based on his experience.
Last week we had the woman insulting small team out of the garage distros. I found that truly insulting to the community on the whole. The message I replied to here caught me as exactly the same, although in another manner.
I will degress that we do have millions of different opinions on different subjects but what irks me is a person who uses code daily written by the poor man, the little guys out on the fringe, then touts that to achieve something great a distro should be backed by millions of dollars, which would make it bought, and controlled.
I've said this before, we already have that in another mainstream OS don't we?
Then second thing that rankled me and has had in any facet of my life is a person who goes off about a) or b) but did 0 to correct the issue. Anyone detracting on any issue that they have put little to no effort to understand/resolve themselves has a dubious intent indeed.
I think you misunderstood my intent. My son who is a Point and Click 14 year old windows kid installed Gentoo manually, without any help from me I might add. He did what anyone could easily do. and he by far could not be considered computer literate. Read and Follow the plethora of documentation Gentoo has on installation or any other aspect of their system.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
188 • Re: 185 • To #172 and 184 (by Nanlee) (by Anonymous on 2007-08-24 05:03:12 GMT from Malaysia)
If it's true that KDE can take up to 72 hours to compile on a Gentoo system, your food analogy should be modified to read:
"Gentoo and other source code based distros are more like an a all-you-can-eat Chinese hot pot or all-you-can-eat Korean BBQ. The pre-washed or marinate raw ingredients (programed source code) are on the table and you use a small candle to cook your food sloooowly."
189 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-24 06:35:03 GMT from Canada)
If it takes that long to compile KDE
Clearly the CPU is not capable of large compiles in a resonable time
Distcc was mentioned
Better yet use a minimal Linux O/System or at very least_
lightweight desktop Managers
Another impraticality
Reliable high-speed broadband access is needed to realize Gentoo beneits
If determined to run Gentoo on old iron or without broadband ~
Use their BINARY sources !
Under Linux there is always alternatives
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7438
From your attitudes, there seems to be more than iron that is slow
Not that above alternatives would change a fondness for beans, nor inability to stomach hearty meals
It is suspected anything you digest would sour on the acidity
190 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-24 06:43:30 GMT from Canada)
As I'm a Canadian where the school system is availabe to all
And most here understand grammar -
Be it noted - the Ehh ommission in
REASONABLE
was purposely left out !
Mind, for those trolling to fish - they may not get the drift of waters
191 • Will SUN offer an indemnity should the owner of UNIX copyrights (NOVELL) sue ? (by Distrowatch Reader on 2007-08-24 07:22:00 GMT from United States)
Will SUN offer users an indemnity should the owner of UNIX copyrights (NOVELL) sue.
192 • RE 188 Even if it takes 72 hors, does it that matter? (by dbrion on 2007-08-24 09:15:07 GMT from France)
Currently pple compile softs to add it to their Unix/linux (old ones, very new ones, softs they write or packages their systyrans forgot to put...).
Depending on the size, they have it compiled while they eat, for one night or for one week end. The soft they compile are generally not packaged (to remain very mild) in a coherent (perhaps comfortable ?) way as Gentoo users find Gentoo.... but it is a matter of common sense and very basic time management...and I suppose there are linux experts (188, say) in that domain...
The necessity of a reliable IT connection [cf 189] (instead of having a mirror, where a friend/cybercafé can give/sell you anything) is more ennoying than these time details (and I fear in many countries, even in rural zones of developped ones...).
193 • For some it's a more natural process (by KimTjik on 2007-08-24 09:24:56 GMT from Sweden)
There has been some discussion here about whether Gentoo is easy to install or not, following the instructions in the main or some alternative manual. I don't think it's fair to argue that because one individual being so and so computer-illiterate manage to install Gentoo, another person being so and so computer-literate should without doubt be able to be just as successful. Neither this scenario, neither the scenario of a person successfully choosing Gentoo as her/his first Linux distribution, make any conclusive argument.
As individuals we're different and hence certain schemes feel more or less natural to us. Even if being active in the profession talents differ. Landor's son might have a similar mindset of looking at things as have the Gentoo developers; without any special schooling he's capable of catching up quickly, because both the manual and the scheme feel natural for him.
I wrote some comment about it some time ago how I felt totally lost among Mint's configuration GUIs, even though some would argue that it's extremely easy. On the other hand I feel at home in Arch, but some would shake their heads in disbelief about how that possibly can be easier than Mint. Another mindset, scheme or what ever I shall call it.
What I wrote here isn't an argument about source vs. binary, because that's a totally different issue (binary distributions aren't all the same anyway, just as source ones differ).
194 • Gentoo Complexity (by Glenn Condrey on 2007-08-24 09:27:28 GMT from United States)
I've used linux now for about three years.
Because my computer is also used by my wife...I have not been able to become a linux only user...we have to dual boot...as my wife refuses to learn linux.
I've used various distros...and most of the ones I like tend to be based upon Debian.
That said...the other night for the heck of it...I downloaded and installed Sabayon Linux, based as you know upon Gentoo.
I've heard all the reports about hw technical it is...and I discovered to my chagrin that its the darn truth.
After installing 3.4 I went to get the latest updates.
In Ubuntu or Debian....138 updates would take one hour or two possible to download and install.
In Sabayon/Gentoo...it too eight and a half hours.
As of now...I cannot tell that my distrl runs any faster after that compile.
Linux has come a long way of shedding its reputation of being hard to learn/hard to use.
I am not trying to flame anyone when I say I truly don't understand the concept of making a distro this freaking technical.
I admit it runs beautifully, hardware detection was right on...but like a lot of other linux distros (Debian offspring excepted) VLC player doesnt run as it should...and I had to edit my GRUB bootloader to properly boot my Windows partition (another thing that the Debian based distros I use do right the first time)
I understand that there is no one linux for everyone, that everyone's needs are different...but like you pointed out, learning Gentoo really doesn't teach you much about linux overall.
I think future developers need to take that point in mind...and change that weakness into a strength for its users.
195 • Re: 189 (by DeniZen at 2007-08-24 09:51:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
"If determined to run Gentoo on old iron or without broadband ~
Use their BINARY sources !"
Fair point, so, once that route is taken is there any good reason to choose Gentoo over many other Binary based Distros' which 'may be more suitable - overall'?
Not really.
OK lets put cards on the table (its a question, and lib-senseofhumour.so is a dependency .. ;) )
Is Gentoo effectively the distro for Beavis and Butthead - albeit clever lil' Beavis's who can actually read and follow instuctions?
"whoooa .. CFLAGS are waaay cool"
"heh heh, yeah.. they like, rule ..hngg huh huhh... AAAARGHH .. its just broke ..my Gentoo just broke"
196 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-24 11:06:16 GMT from Canada)
Well then there now ~ let's sea
If you can't understand the flow - when in waters over your head
Somone may toss you a lifeline:
While you splash & founder, & crying for help
Your rescuers may say:
Had you looked REALLY close - before diving in_
The warning sign said -
DANGER don't wade in over your depths
The again, > it IS possible to float alone (for a while)
So is climbing Mt. Everest
While anything may be possible if foolishly DETERMINED
It SAH is not practical when (bent) out of shape & ill "equipped"
That Linux Journal article showed the weigh
Did anyone NOTE - the suitablity to corporate enterprise solutions ?
There are cards - then there are decks full of jokers
If any can't tell they are playing with a few cards short of a full deck
I for one, am inclined to believe
They have indeed already lost their ante in the games of life
If any insist on pushing the pedal to metal
or don't keep their "shtick" on ice
@ very least, TRY to keep th' shiny side up
(wink) so to speak
197 • RE: 188 (by Landor on 2007-08-24 15:45:37 GMT from Canada)
I don't remember exactly how long KDE took to install on both mine and my son's boxes since on both occasions it was installed overnight, and completed in the morning. So in both cases it was quite a bit less than over 72 hours.
X took about close to an hour I think, at the very most, on my son's system with distcc.
We could've sped that up considerably of course with a couple other older systems we have, but I didn't see the need for it. All gets done in good time.
I have to say this in defense of Gentoo yet again, and what you come out of it for an education in linux. I would've never used distcc and hadn't, until I used Gentoo. Well, I probably would have since as I said I do want to roll my own totally. But again, it was Gentoo that brought me to learning it.
Another cool thing my son has learned from Gentoo was how to use his better computer as a server for the desktop to his old one in his bedroom. Both have to be on of course. But now when he boots a Gentoo minimal with X he automagically gets the login screen on his better/newer computer and is able to play the games and stuff on it that the older one couldn't as if he were in front of it.
So there's a lot to be learned by pokin' in the Gentoo documentation.
I'll probably be giving rolling my own from scratch totally very soon. I will be keeping my Gentoo install though, most definately.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
198 • Re: 189, 192 (by 188 on 2007-08-24 16:31:51 GMT from Malaysia)
189 wrote
"From your attitudes, there seems to be more than iron that is slow
Not that above alternatives would change a fondness for beans, nor inability to stomach hearty meals
It is suspected anything you digest would sour on the acidity"
192 wrote
"The soft they compile are generally not packaged (to remain very mild) in a coherent (perhaps comfortable ?) way as Gentoo users find Gentoo.... but it is a matter of common sense and very basic time management...and I suppose there are linux experts (188, say) in that domain..."
I hope these comments weren't meant for me because I couldn't understand them at all :-(
199 • Re: 197 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-24 17:17:20 GMT from Malaysia)
I apologize for the misquote in 188: "If it's true that KDE can take up to 72 hours to compile on a Gentoo system..."
The statement should read: "KDE, for example can take between 12 and 60 hours, depending upon the speed of your machine." (Linux Desktop Pocket Guide, 2005, O'Reilly Media)
200 • Re: 196 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-24 17:24:57 GMT from Malaysia)
Is bad free verse one of the side-effects of compiling from source?
201 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-08-24 20:48:24 GMT from Canada)
#200
Yes, the bad verse of indigestible similies to odd feading habits, of #185
Little wonder they caused his over-acidity from vegetative content
or gassy eminations of cooks from eating beans
Wonder if those beans were same when warned by mothers > "Don't put them in your ears" ?
However, if anyones candled-cooker is slow - 3 more appropriate homilies may need a codicle :
1 ~ A watched pot never boils -
{A watched compilation quickly boils impatient cooks}
2 ~ @ higher elevations, all boils faster~
{whatever the environment}
3 ~ Too many cooks spoil the stew
{They are overly fond of carelessly throwing in spoiled ingedients
or over 'stir'}
Perhaps some were recent distro forum 'dishwashers', tastes/habits
from better eating scraped-together leftovers of others ?
They seem to have a tendency to add spices to anything they consider bland
No accounting for tastes
1-2-3 is a strike out
Babe (T)Ruth was already at bat (L.J. article)
He hit the ball out of park
For those fond of stabbing participants of game in back
They seem to forget
"Don't carry a knife - Esp if opponents have big guns
How about good verse ?
'Would you walk a little faster'
said the whiting to the snail
'There's a pUrpose close behind us
Treading on our tale'
http://autopackage.org/apbuild-apgcc.php
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=2&chap=5
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-shlibs.html
All 3 are generically applicable to all Linux
Irregardless of taste - those ingredients are nourishing
In answer to 'Do things learned from using Gentoo (or similar)
'carry over to others' ~ YES
Esp since items such as above are seldom applied in home desktop
systems & their packaging dependencies often not built on "clean enviroments'
OVER -opitmising of NOT "use flags (Apps) - but the Gcc march
hard settings for CPU extensions
That CAN lead to breakage if shared by users of more plebian "generic" settings
If any 'upgrade' to/ from Intel Amd CPUs then would require recomplies
of all Apps/libraries 'expecting' now declared use of those optional parameters
Plse see ACOVEA
As can be seen by (sorry for ) verbosity - clarity/careful study of documentation
is good habits if any coding is attempted
Miss ONE overloaded variable - logic results are flawed
So no, Gentoo is not for 'casual' use
It is for those who desire, have patience to empower themslves,
escape dependence on others
If only a 'free' Windows was expected - chose whatever seems better suited
Thank you for patience
202 • RE 201 - In substence I agree, but with your conclusion (by KimTjik on 2007-08-24 21:50:03 GMT from Sweden)
"So no, Gentoo is not for 'casual' use
It is for those who desire, have patience to empower themselves,
escape dependence on others"
I don't think that was your intention, but nevertheless such words conceive some sort of elitism. It's not about "empowering oneself", it will never be anything more than empowering a computer system - a dead object with no blood or heart. Whether I use Gentoo or "SuperSimpleLinuxOutOfTheBox" doesn't make a statement about my personality; if I would need such a statement I'm probably not empowered by anything but dullness and emptiness, yes the opposite: a lack of empowered individualism. But this is maybe an explanation to why some so forcefully battle on the ground of distro preferences.
Anyway "Anonymous", whoever you are, this wasn't directed personally at you, but your words helped me to put a finger on what I've been observing.
203 • Gentoo complexity (by Vassilis Angnostopoulos on 2007-08-25 00:01:06 GMT from Greece)
It is true that gentoo is more complicated than other distributions, but I don't think things are as difficult as you describe them.
First of all, you don't install Gentoo if you don't want to learn some things about your OS and how it works. This means that you have to be prepared to read the Gentoo Handbook . How much time does it take? It is about 130 pages so perhaps about 4-5 hours. You don't have to read all of it at once, you can just use it to help you with the installation, and leave half of it for later. This is one other important point, IMHO: it is better to install gentoo the old way, without graphical installers, because it is a part of the learning process. Then gradually, by using the system every day, you will learn to use it better and better and customise your OS to suit your needs perfectly. The documentation really is excellent, this goes for the guides written by the developers, the wiki, and the help forums.
BTW, you can see the USE flags for a package before installing it at gentoo-portage.com
204 • Clarity (by Anonymous on 2007-08-25 00:15:01 GMT from Canada)
# 201
'Elitism' is a personal Freudian interpretation
http://www.power2u.org/articles/empower/working_def.html
"Empowering" may be:
~ Endeavouring to learn or use for own satisfaction
Positive side -benefits:
Often then obviating societal dependence on others to fill own needs
(Think of feminist views)
Digressions:
Computers have no intelligence
They cannot count past one
But can do it just under the speed of light (starting at zero)
AI is artificial - computers are pre-progammed, have no means to
interpolate abstract human concepts
Negative numbers:
Only god (& now forums) attempt 2 divide by zero
Hexa-dismal ?
NON -Elitism:
" It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer.
Albert Einstein
-
Summation:
I hesitate to state > "Prejudice is a great time saver,
often used when forming opinions without having to get the facts:"
In this case, you kindly took time to politely qualify_
In like manner may I observe >
" It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see."
http://www.offthemark.com/daily.php
205 • 201 • No subject (by Anonymous from Canada) (by Anonymous on 2007-08-25 00:20:14 GMT from Malaysia)
"So no, Gentoo is not for 'casual' use
It is for those who desire, have patience to empower themslves"
What is Gentoo? Is it a cult?
206 • We who are about to "dye" salute thee (by Anonymous on 2007-08-25 00:31:04 GMT from Canada)
Results from "counting" in computer terms
Now I don't count > literally
However, the reply was for # 202
Users here NEED board (bored ?) [quote] functions
All "Numbers" are irrelevant
207 • is gentoo a metadistro? (by Anonymous on 2007-08-25 00:59:58 GMT from United States)
No, gentoo is not a meta distro. For those of you that said it was, you are wrong. Gentoo distributes live cds and stage 3 tarballs. That means they are distributing linux. It's just that simple!
208 • adjunctive cult-ivations (by Anonymous on 2007-08-25 02:39:18 GMT from Canada)
Cult vs cult-ivator - generally seen digging dirt
Malaysia is attractive territory -
Malaise is not a language
That's spelt casual; Perhaps #205 was confusing terminology to
casual -ties ?
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml
It may be used casually by 'sum' users - but doing so may be as 8>) locatious
as suggesting usage of same was as impractical as employing a 400 HP multi-purpose
http://images.google.ca/images?q=excavator&hl=en&um=1&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title
just to dig one "post'ed -whole
209 • Re: 208 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-25 04:07:03 GMT from Malaysia)
I'm still unable to understand why my earlier posts seem to have provoked so much hostility. Once again, I apologize for implying that KDE can take up to 72 hours to compile on a Gentoo system. The figure quoted in the Linux Desktop Pocket Guide (O'Reilly Media, 2005) was 'between 12 and 60 hours'. I haven't tried Gentoo and I'm even less inclined to do so now, judging by the responses on this forum. I'm glad I use Fedora - unlike Gentoo, it is not an elitist distro.
210 • Qu 209 What is the rigorous defintion of elitism? (by dbrion on 2007-08-25 09:31:38 GMT from France)
Are morality certificates useful for choosing a distr?
I can think of other more pertinent choice criteria
* quality of the doc (does she teach you something?)
* ease of maintenance (a nasty bug can lead to months of unpleasant trouble (I do not misspell this time unit); this cannot be compared with installation times, whichever they are.....
Generally, people do not install under pressure if they can avoid it (and bugs lead to pressure).
As for the complexity, perhaps modern desktops (and generally, applications) are very complex=> it is not Gentoo'fault.
BTW I am not at all a Gentoo user, but am favorably impressed by the quality of their doc, when I need it.
Perhaps a criterium of success would neither be curiosity (DW HR), nor downloads counts (/install counts), but the number of times their doc is quoted (it is a serious professional criterion in the research world : young searchers are evaluated by the number of publications, older ones by the numbers of times they are quoted -whatever knowledge they made free, it was thought as useful-).
211 • RE: and then RE: and then RE: some more :) (by Landor on 2007-08-25 10:21:24 GMT from Canada)
I was looking at a decent little program today for Gentoo. A GUI frontend for portage and KDE by the name of Kuroo.
I thought it was quite simplistic in it's nature and what a way to simplify all the information needed to make an apropriate choice for the install while still in a very easy to use, simple GUI for the Portage system.
While I was looking at all the files it say there are updates for, and being able to read the change logs, etc.. I thought of something Dbrion said a few issues ago that I totally agreed with.
This may not be a direct quote, but it's close:
If she works why upgrade?
If she doesn't work why install?
There were a few changes I found that appealed to me in the upgrades (mainly regarding functionality in KDE) and I had said a few weeks back in regard to Dbrion's above comment that I wouldn't do a mass upgrade since I didn't need to, only ones that improved functionality, or needed security/bug fixes.
So while doing the upgrades and thinking about Dbrion's comment here, it reminded me of another comment he tries to convey repeatedly and a lot of people miss. Sadly, I think Ladislav (and no insult to you Ladislav) missed it too. Check the change logs, look at what you are upgrading. That is the one point that did shock me Ladislav, you did a mass update like that. But we are all human, and as the saying goes &^%* happens.
I have Kubuntu on another drive/partition that I rarely ever use now, it needs 124 updates, and it can stay that way. Mass updates scare me, and the only OS I'm concerned about running perfectly enough to go and pick and choose my updates is my Gentoo install.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
212 • Gentoo post 184 (by Jerry on 2007-08-25 18:04:48 GMT from United States)
That car analogy is right on. Gentoo is a piece by piece
project.. super crap to a user wanting to get away from
the Windows merrigoround, but "fun" for an enthusiast
who loves to tinker.
And I'm nearly certain that a lot of these such enthusiasts
have Windows or a default Linux distro to fall back on or
that they use when not deep into the Gentoo mire of
dependency hell and code worries.
Oh, people, Linux was supposed to answer the Microsoft
monopoly. It has not, and Gentoo is so far from that
dream that distros like Sabayon, Mint and even Mandriva
look like heroes now comparitively.
213 • 212 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-25 21:30:30 GMT from United States)
Jerry: I've seen you post here before and most of what you are doing is trolling. Probably a MS fanboi, but whatever the case, definitely a troll.
>> super crap to a user wanting to get away from
the Windows merrigoround, but "fun" for an enthusiast
who loves to tinker. <<
Then you should use Windows, a different Linux distro, a Mac, an Apple IIgs, or whatever, right? Not rocket science...
>> Oh, people, Linux was supposed to answer the Microsoft
monopoly. It has not <<
That's debatable, but I won't waste my time providing a response to you, because it's not a debate when a troll is involved.
>> Gentoo is so far from that
dream that distros like Sabayon, Mint and even Mandriva
look like heroes now comparitively. <<
And your point is what?
214 • RE: 212 (by Landor on 2007-08-25 23:43:06 GMT from Canada)
"And I'm nearly certain that a lot of these such enthusiasts
have Windows or a default Linux distro to fall back on or
that they use when not deep into the Gentoo mire of
dependency hell and code worries"
This just goes to show every person who knows the smallest fraction of information on Portage that you really have no idea and are spouting off.
You should go back to your M$$$ OS and enjoy clicking send error report.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
215 • Re: 210 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-26 02:08:34 GMT from Malaysia)
"I can think of other more pertinent choice criteria
* quality of the doc (does she teach you something?)
* ease of maintenance (a nasty bug can lead to months of unpleasant trouble (I do not misspell this time unit); this cannot be compared with installation times, whichever they are....."
Also, a friendly and helpful community.
216 • Errata (by Anonymous on 2007-08-26 04:56:49 GMT from Canada)
ARE Gentoo specifics 'portable ?
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=60071...
You decide
RE # 215
Quote > " A friendly & helpful_"
Goes far to abet all nis-understandings
Why your later posting was deleted without comment was inconsistent to good moderating:
I saw NO flaming nor offensive statements !
Mine - understandable & expected :
The offenders were already spoiling for fight - in presmed 'safety' of the WEB
So I wound them up since Ladislav was "selectively modding"
A questionable event as expressed in his decison to publish the
"Puppy for a Year" content
Once again fully knowing it would stir interest to DW & promote vitriol
Conversely , it was earlier noted - All DW credability comes into question
when posts such as #55 are acceptable to community and ESP the host
When that is the case, it suggests confrontation is the basis for much of editorial content
This edition's lead article was on (philosophies of) a chosen Distro's concepts
Whether subjectively it was seen as "yet another Gentoo bashing" was not the point
It was never stipulated to post only technical ponderings
Certainly any view of any Distros' developers are in their own domaine,
best diss -cussed at there - where if fair moderation is applied
damage control exists
It must be pondered why the supposed 'ran(L)ings' were deployed ?
A given they would be used to "defend" populist emotions
Eventually an "anarchy" approach to forums ameliates results -
Users work it out, knee-jerkers evident
Can't have it both ways might is NEVER "right"
Logic should be guiding principle
Inflections to elitism - advanced NEED are emtional knee-jerks only
We are end result of all previuos experiences
Laws/morality concepts are needed when emotions are not tempered/modicum of control
willfully violated.
Don't start a fight unless willing to suffer consequnces
FanBois or host
Expect THIS post to be deleted -if concur, be quick > copy & blog/"dig" for posterity
Respectfully - It (May) aid all users of media
217 • RE: 216 Errata (by ladislav on 2007-08-26 06:40:28 GMT from Taiwan)
Why your later posting was deleted without comment was inconsistent to good moderating: I saw NO flaming nor offensive statements!
The basic rule is simple: stay on topic and be civil. If you talk about Linux/open source and don't insult anybody, your posts won't be deleted.
Expressing political views is off-topic and has no place here. I am sure there are plenty of more appropriate forums for that!
218 • RE 211 Cet enfant est de moi, mais... (by dbrion on 2007-08-26 13:47:29 GMT from France)
Landor
you are right, i really dared to post "If she works why upgrade?
If she doesn't work why install?
"
but the huge flaw you might have noticed too (I was horrified after posting) was that this overpragmatic way of thinking needs some a priori knowledge ("how can one know that she works?") .
This knowledge comes from testing/(having tested and reading)....
Some year, I might be very interested in Gentoo (my nephew is only 8 years old=> can wait 4-6 years...).
219 • Gentoo Complexity (by thomas blomme on 2007-08-26 13:54:38 GMT from Belgium)
Hi,
Thank you for your, in my opinion, objective review of Gentoo Linux.
A few years ago my dad wanted to install Linux on our computer at home cause he was getting bored of paying for Windows, which in his eyes had a lot of faults and unnecessary features.
At that moment when you wanted to change to linux you didn't have a lot of options. you could either buy a commercial Linux distro like Suse or Red Hat or try a distribution which was in most cases a difficult job to install. so he chose the distribution that was the most flexible, Gentoo.
About 1 year ago i got my own computer, a box who was about 6 years old and wasn't able to run Windows because of being to slow. i decided to put gentoo on it, we had the documentation and necessary cd's at home so why not? it was the only distro i knew, otherwise I might had chosen Ubuntu, openSuse or Fedora.
The installation didn't went easily, my dad had to help me a bit(he had a limited knowledge because he had some troubles during installation as well) and I used the Gentoo forum to solve the rest of my issues. I was very proud when the system got installed eventually. I had some troubles with my computer for a half year long, my screen froze and the computer hanged. I had no idea what was the problem of all of this. My dad, who had already changed to the easier Ubuntu by then, said that the problem was within the gentoo distribution. It wasn't that stable he believed and because it had to compile everything it asked a lot of power of the computer. I didn't believe him, probably because of my age, 16, an age where you wan't to explore everything yourself.
Finally I found out the problem lied in the hardware itself, the computer got to hot and the processor broke down. So, the simple solution was to open the side of the box so it could get fresh air.
(not sure if you are following but this isn''t important for the point of the story)
While I was searching for a solution on the hang-problem I installed a lot of programs, tweaked the gentoo system a bit to be less power consuming and so on... i didn't realize it at that moment but step by step I got to know the infrastructure of the gentoo distro more. I realized it when my dad had a problem on his Ubuntu system: his harddisk had run full and he wasn't able to login anymore. he didn't knew what to do.
But when you have experimented with Gentoo, it's simple: just switch to text mode, log in as root, check where the space consuming files are, delete some and you are on the road again.
My dad was surprised that i knew that many Linux commands and programs and so was I
My point is that I like Ubuntu as a distribution: it's user-friendly, easy to install... In fact it is comparable to Windows with the only difference that it is free. To me that's the second generation of Linux: the generation of distributions that will make Linux popular amongst Windows users in the near future, I'm sure.
But it has one big disadvantage, people do not know what happens behind there Gnome/KDE interface anymore and they will eventually end up paying a computer expert to solve their problems.
With Gentoo you learn everything by yourself. You do not have to become a developer or a professional user and know the whole system. But when you work a bit with Gentoo you will notice some problems and try to solve them yourself, making you more known to the system itself, a good thing in my eyes.
Still this isn't a good solution for everyone, if you wan't to spend time on learning the system you work with: Do it, get Gentoo!
If you are just an average user who uses his compueter to surf the Internet and write letters: Order a CD, Start the Installation of Ubuntu, come back 2 hours later and check your mails
Your Sincerly,
thomas
220 • Concise answ to 215 (and 188,198,199 among others) (by dbrion on 2007-08-26 14:02:17 GMT from France)
"Also, a friendly and helpful community"
Be your own help :
a) read the doc
b) do not be ironic with something you obviously do not know about (cf 188)
c) do not post unchecked facts/figures (cf 198, 199,....).
And you will get some helpful friends, if you need....
OTH I learned much from Gentoo users, though I do not use her...
221 • Re: 216 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-26 14:16:15 GMT from Malaysia)
"Why your later posting was deleted without comment was inconsistent to good moderating: I saw NO flaming nor offensive statements !"
Umm ... 215 was actually my last post. A couple of earlier posts were deleted.
"The offenders were already spoiling for fight - in presmed 'safety' of the WEB"
Just to clarify: as far as Gentoo is concerned, there was no disrespect intended.
222 • Re: 220 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-26 14:50:48 GMT from Malaysia)
"Be your own help :
a) read the doc
b) do not be ironic with something you obviously do not know about (cf 188)
c) do not post unchecked facts/figures (cf 198, 199,....)."
Post 188 started with "If it's true that KDE can take up to 72 hours to compile on a Gentoo system..." Landor clarified that this is not true (post 197), so I apologized and also pointed out that it was a (mis)quote.
Post 198 was genuine: I really have no idea what you meant by "it is a matter of common sense and very basic time management...and I suppose there are linux experts (188, say) in that domain..." (post 192).
"And you will get some helpful friends, if you need...."
Thank you for the advice, but I think the Distrowatch Comments section is just a bit too confrontational for me, so I will confine myself to the Fedora forums in future.
223 • Re: 222 (by Anonymous on 2007-08-26 17:01:00 GMT from Malaysia)
I've just realized that the last sentence of my previous post (222) may also be misconstrued as being confrontational. Could Ladislav please delete the potentially inflammatory line (or the entire post if necessary), so that I can sign off this forum without stepping on any more toes?
224 • Obituary (by Anonymous on 2007-08-26 17:49:04 GMT from Canada)
Mr #223
Sir:
I still see nothing offensive in any of your comments past or present
As mentioned, why YOUR posts were deleted yet blatant trolling
allowed - maybe it was accidental
Ladislav certainly has hands full trying to maintain a workable balance
I too became overwhelmed with the "confrontational aspects" to
comments past & present editions.
For a "tongue in cheek" relief - have a read of good verse
The Hunting of the Snark.
He was thoughtful and grave--but the orders he gave
Were enough to bewilder a crew.
When he cried "Steer to starboard, but keep her head larboard!"
What on earth was the helmsman to do?
http://www.literature.org/authors/carroll-lewis/the-hunting-of-the-snark/
225 • Gentoo and its users (by Krakatos on 2007-08-26 19:55:14 GMT from Italy)
Well, I came back to this discussion and find that there's still people writing here.
I will say it once again. Gentoo is nice and teaches you a lot. Gentoo has its documentation which is well done. Gentoo in my opinion is NOT what the majority of computer users looks for though. But anyway...
That said I WILL make a criticism. No distribution is perfect. Every distribution has its problems. Mandriva, Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian, Gentoo, PclinuxOS, opensuse... every single on of them has pros and cons.
But I will say this, and forcefully if I need to. Because I am now after this discussion convinced that in this I am right.
The gentoo users who keep posting here, taking ANY critics as an insult, antagonizing everything fiercely, and basically NEVER admitting that gentoo has its problems as well.. are what gives gentoo its bad reputation in terms of being unfriendly to newbies, and a bunch of elitists.
Obviously not every gentoo user is like that, and most are probably not, but those who keep reading the posts here and just try to prove that Gentoo is perfect.. are Gentoo main problem. Nothing in this world is perfect, but trying to deny that your distribution has any problem will NOT make you more liked. Quite the contrary actually.
Also, some people wrote in here with good intentions, expressing their concerns about a distro that they had liked but which they felt has now some problems. I think even ladislav made his review with this meaning. The complexity of gentoo may risk to scare away new users. But no, you HAVE to take everything as an insult, you HAVE to confute everything.
Well, do as you like. I am done with the comment section as well. If I must come in here, trying to find refreshing news of the linux community, and seeing neverending debate, and actually feel stressed out about it, then I will simply avoid the comments from now on.
Because as they say here were I live, nothing is more stressful than trying to argue civilly with someone who's not really interested in what you're saying....
226 • RE:225 (by Landor on 2007-08-26 22:08:22 GMT from Canada)
I have to disagree with this on a whole. I have seen the "odd" post that had been a little agressive. But for the most part almost all posts have been fairly normal for the weekly comments. In fact, I have seen far more disputes over PCLOS in here, for weeks on end.
What you consider a problem to someone new isn't really a problem though, it's a point of view. Would you agree that someone who uses that "other" OS for the very first time feels daunted by it, even when it's just clicking buttons? Have you never seen anyone of that "other" os delete files randomly and mess it all up because it is really "newbie unfriendly" that way?
They learn though correct?
I will point out one thing though, and hopefully Ladislav won't delete it...lol
I always enjoy seeing people who follow the mainstream crowd because they turn a blind eye to those in it, and find fault in the opposition perse'.
Meaning, there's been slinging on both sides that I have seen, and again it's no more worse, and even better than past issues in the last few months. Yet, as is the norm, when it's the popular side of the fence to be leaning on, well...that's different.
Keep your stick on the ice...
Landor
227 • Gentoo users = in general normal folks (by KimTjik on 2007-08-26 23:13:33 GMT from Sweden)
I did make a comment earlier about elitism, but that could apply to users of any distribution who see their choice as a manifestation of self-importance. Developers are individuals, but what they technically do is not more than a tool. dbrion mentioned documentation as a criteria of quality, and it certainly is, and while being well written its main object is to clearly explain and guide. When I read Gentoo documentation I don't see any elitism, or should we say boosting ego; I've used and applied its advice in my work with other distributions.
Since Gentoo probably attract more self-conscious users, which isn't a bad thing at all, it might naturally become more difficult to keep the community coherently joined together and disciplined. To make my point clear: this isn't necessarily bad, it's just one of those occasions when a strength in some circumstances could become a weakness. A pretty natural phenomena. I'm not a member of the Gentoo forum, but I see how some of the more influential and mature members try to direct discussions in a positive direction.
Some days ago a thread was started with the somewhat unfortunate title "Gentoo vs. Arch". Such a discussion could have got ugly, but the reactions on both sides were generally very positive and reach a consensus of both sides having their strengths and weaknesses. Hence I think we should try to ignore the hooligans, a group not exclusive to any camp, and focus on the good members. Gentoo has technically and by its communities hard work on documentation made a great contribution to all of us Linux users.
228 • Sabayon update times sound insane (by Will on 2007-08-27 01:39:56 GMT from China)
"After installing 3.4 I went to get the latest updates.
In Ubuntu or Debian....138 updates would take one hour or two possible to download and install.
In Sabayon/Gentoo...it too eight and a half hours."
I have been very tempted to try Sabayon--the live dvd is up to this point the only distro that has been able to compile my Radeon Xpress 200m card with 3D out of the box, and the whole thing looks beautiful (aside from the over abundance of games). But after reading the above report on update time...no, thanks. I'll stick with the newbie distros.
229 • Thanks for good discusssion on Gentoo (by rglk on 2007-08-27 04:06:58 GMT from United States)
This week's comments section is just about to expire, and I hasten to add a note of appreciation before it's off the air. Thank you to all the good people who contributed to the >200 comments this week, many of them dedicated Gentoo users. This has been a good session with real meat, something that doesn't happen that often on DWW Comments anymore.
I would attribute this generally high level of discourse to the quality of the Gentoo distribution. Contrary to the tone prevalent in DWW over the past half year or so, insinuating that Gentoo has serious problems and may be on a precipitous decline or even on the path to extinction, I've come away with rather positive feelings for this distro, and I'm inclined to give it a try in the future (I'm using Arch now - after Mandrake, Xandros, Debian and Slackware - and simply can't conceive of moving away from it). I believe that there is a substantial cohort of Linux users of intermediate proficiency (e.g. some 3-4 years of Linux use) who are potential converts to Gentoo or to LFS, and they will keep Gentoo in their radar.
Perhaps there is a simple recipe for getting a quality discussion on DWW: invite comments on some aspect of a Linux distro the use of which requires a significant commitment to actually learning Linux, such as Gentoo, Slackware, Arch, Debian, etc. You'll get good, knowledgeable people speaking up for their love, and most likely they will contribute something of real substance.
230 • 228 9 hours update times are not worrying (by dbrion on 2007-08-27 06:29:25 GMT from France)
It is a night duration : you can sleep, read, make errands...
You may sleep well if the internet connection is reliable _and_ if the upgrades are better than the former version...
Number of Comments: 229
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
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