 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 184, 8 January 2007 |
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Welcome to this year's second issue of DistroWatch Weekly! This week DistroWatch continues its assessment of some of the more exciting events of the year 2006, with brief reviews of TrueBSD 0.1 and gNewSense 1.0 - two projects which were among the most pleasant surprises of the year. In the news section: Mandriva embarks on a large number of updates in its development repository, Xubuntu 'outgrows' its original target, Netwosix announces the start of a new development cycle, and PC-BSD updates users on some of the bugs that have crept into their recent release, version 1.3. Finally, don't miss the new release of elpicx, a great live CD/DVD with a collection of documentation, exercises and simulators to help you prepare for your LPI certification. Happy reading!
Content:
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| Reviews |
TrueBSD and gNewSense - two promising projects of 2006 (by Andrei Raevsky)
The end of 2006 saw some very interesting developments in the realm of live CDs, one in the BSD world and one in the GNU/Linux world: the first release of the TrueBSD live CD by Belorussian developers and the release by the Free Software Foundation of gNewSense 1.0, an Ubuntu-based, 100% free distro. These two separate events, each of which are important breakthroughs in their own rights, attest to the tremendous vitality of the free software world.
TrueBSD 0.1
 TrueBSD version 0.1 is the first release of a FreeBSD-based mini distro (200 MB). Unlike the other high-end Russian FreeBSD-based mini live CD, Frenzy, which I reviewed for DistroWatch in the past, TrueBSD is not aimed at the experienced system administrator, but at the general user. Thus these two distros wonderfully complement each other.
TrueBSD began as the college research project of a talented computer science student, Aleksei Sokolov, who is currently studying in the Belorussian capital city of Minsk (Aleksei also has two jobs, one as a system administrator and the other as a system administrator/software developer). For a long while, Aleksei could not come up with an interesting idea for his research project, and the projects of the other students appeared rather boring to him. Since he always has a personal need for a live CD he decided on creating one himself which he presented to his teachers as an early TrueBSD 0.1BETA1 for which he received the highest possible grade. Subsequently, he developed TrueBSD 0.1 almost entirely on his own.
TrueBSD has plenty of eye candy, including Xfce, a very cool looking desktop, and a catchy logo. Command line aficionados will delight in the advanced (Bash compatible) Zsh terminal. All the main applications, which include, AbiWord, Emacs, Xmms, MPlayer, Firefox, Sylpheed and Gaim, are accessible via one click on the panel), while others, including the super-fast Links browser, are accessible via a right-click. TrueBSD is easy and intuitive to use. The only thing which might confuse a newbie is the absence of a convenient mounting utility on the desktop (mounting is done either through the command line or with the basic, but functional, TrueConf utility). TrueBSD also has a couple of solid system administration tools (e.g. Nessus), a DOS emulator, a wide choice of text editors and some neat games (e.g. Doom2). The documentation includes the man and info pages and the official FreeBSD Handbook.
All-in-all, TrueBSD is already a stunning success, specially for a version 0.1. It offers a very comfortable choice of applications, a rock-solid operating system, and plenty of intuitive ways to familiarize newbies with FreeBSD. My only regret was the small size of 200 MB instead of a full-size (compressed) 700 MB distro. The good news is that Sokolov is planning to release the next version, planned for the second quarter of 2007, in two (200 MB and 700 MB) editions, and that this second release will be a major upgrade of the distro. Hopefully, Aleksei Sokolov's project will benefit from the help of other talented developers, testers and TrueBSD-specific documentation writers as this distro clearly has the potential to grow into the reference distro for BSD-based live CDs.
TrueBSD's creator can be contacted through the distro's website: www.truebsd.org.
TrueBSD 0.1: a general-purpose FreeBSD-based live CD with a graphical desktop
(full image size: 164kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
gNewSense 1.0
 gNewSense is the creation of two Irish free software advocates and developers, Brian Brazil and Paul O'Malley. This Ubuntu-based distro's unique feature is that it is 100% free: there are no undocumented applications, no proprietary software of any kind and even the Linux kernel has been freed from the so-called "binary blobs", or executable code bits which are loaded into the kernel. gNewSense also has its own repositories which contains only free software.
The name gNewSense is, in part, in honor of the "Father of Free Software", Richard Stallman, whose is sometimes called "Chief GNUisance"; it is also, of course, in honor of the GNU project and its values. The project received the support of the Free Software Foundation which officially announced the release of gNewSense on November 2nd, 2006.
While gNewSense has some original (and beautiful) art work of its own, it is unique in that it deliberately offers less, not more, than most other distros. By removing all non-free components, Brian Brazil and Paul O'Malley deliberately sacrificed functionality to the basic principle of using only free software. This can appear as a rather poor trade-off until one remembers that it is precisely these values and principles which made such things as the Linux kernel or the Wikipedia possible.
It is also remarkable how little was really sacrificed. With some notable exceptions, in particular the "loss" of some wireless modules and the lack of some video libraries, very little is missing and it is rather amazing how much can already be achieved with only free software.
Another original feature of gNewSense is that it is not intended as a monolithic distro, but rather as a basis for the creation of many other, possibly more specialized, distros. Brazil and O'Malley have created a collection of scripts, called Builder scripts, which make it easy for anyone to create his or her own highly customizable and 100% free distribution. All that is needed is some disk space and a fast connection and in a couple of simple steps (outlined on the gNewSense.org website) you can create your own completely free distro.
Clearly, gNewSense version 1.0 already goes beyond the simple proof-of-concept stage and will become the reference implementation of a completely free GNU/Linux distribution. The real question is whether there is any demand out there for such product, and the simple answer is yes, very much so. The simple fact that four terabytes of gNewSense ISO images and packages downloaded in just one day from the Free Software Foundation's servers which host the gNewSense.org web site is the best proof of the interest generated. Furthermore, at a time when many major GNU/Linux distributions are being assimilated by the corporate world, a totally free distro, especially one running with a free LinuxBIOS can serve as the reference against which proprietary operating systems, such as Windows Vista or Mac OS X should be compared.
Volunteers and interested people are encouraged to visit #gnewsense at irc.freenode.net to join the gNewSense community.
gNewSense 1.0: an Ubuntu-based distribution built exclusively from Free Software
(full image size: 197kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
TrueBSD and gNewSense are two very good examples of the vibrant dynamism of the free software world. While in the past BSD-based live CDs tended to lag behind the GNU/Linux ones, distros such a TrueBSD (or Frenzy) are showing that BSD is catching up very fast and that just a few talented and dedicated developers can make the difference. Neither TrueBSD nor gNewSense are fully finished products, but they form an excellent core for future developments which will dramatically increase the choice of operating systems available to the public.
Disclaimer: Andrei Raevsky is an associate member of the Free Software Foundation.
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| Miscellaneous News |
Mandriva Cooker updates, Arch Linux interview, Xubuntu "growth", return of Netwosix, PC-BSD 1.3 bugs, elpicx
 Let's start with a few updates from Fabrice Facorat, one of the developers of Mandriva Linux. According to his Cooker: The Inside Man IV, the French distribution has started the new year with a flurry of activity that should ensure a timely release of version 2007.1 in a few months. Among the more interesting points of the post are the details about problems with the native 64-bit edition of OpenOffice.org, the upcoming switch from LILO to GRUB as Mandriva's default boot loader, Beryl issues with Mesa and X.Org, and the availability of KDE 4 alpha which can be installed alongside KDE 3. There is much more, so if you are following the development of Mandriva Linux or are looking forward to the distribution's next release, the Inside Man does an excellent job to keep us up-to-date.
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 Arch Linux is a distribution that keeps getting positive reviews from the more technically inclined Linux users, especially for its excellent package manager and a simple, clean system. Last week, the project's founder and lead developer Judd Vinet agreed to answer a few questions presented to him by OSSBlog.it. He talks about the beginnings of Arch Linux and explains the philosophy of the distribution, but also hints at some new features in the upcoming release, version 0.8: "Voodoo (Arch Linux 0.8) will sport a new installation CD layout, as well as a new early user-space model mostly developed by Aaron Griffin. It employs the use of 'hooks' to enable various features at boot time, such as full hard disk encryption." Read the full interview here.
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 Xubuntu is a Linux distribution that doesn't often figure in the news headlines, but as an official sub-project of Ubuntu, it has become fairly popular, especially among those users who want to run a Linux operating system on older, less powerful computers. Unfortunately, it seems that Xubuntu has been slowly making moves towards becoming a resource-heavy distribution, not much lighter than Ubuntu itself: "And so the 'Gnomification' rolls onward, and the weight of Xubuntu grows with each revolution. To me, that's a death knell for the underlying principle of Xubuntu: to make Ubuntu usable on older machines that lack the speed and muscle of modern rigs." The author of the above quote also mentions other worrying trends, such as Xubuntu's effort to turn the Xfce desktop into a GNOME "mockup" or the decision to replace the light-weight Sylpheed mail client with the heavy-duty Thunderbird. Read this post to learn more about Xubuntu's worrying development direction.
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 Remember Netwosix? It used to be a great security-oriented Linux distribution designed for specialist tasks, such as penetration testing. That's until its founder, Vincenzo Ciaglia, decided to take a paid position with Guardian Digital, the developers of EnGarde Secure Linux, and abandoned the project. The good news is that Netwosix is now back: "Yes, Netwosix will be re-born! After I decided to leave Guardian Digital, I'm working on NETWOSIX-NG, with the primary goal of introducing complete support for SELinux. My goal is still to create one of the best secure-by-default GNU/Linux distribution. If you have comments or any kind of suggestion please let's discuss it together here." For more information please read this post on Netwosix.org.
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 The recent release of PC-BSD 1.3, a user-friendly operating system based on FreeBSD, has turned out to be more troublesome than expected. Several serious bugs were reported by those who installed the new release and these were subsequently summarised in a blog post by Tim McCormick: "With the recent release of 1.3 we've seen (as always) a mixed reception. However, one of the largest gripes seems to be our apparently inexplicable decision to use HAL despite its slightly buggy nature. I'd like to take a moment to clear that up." McCormick believes that the decision to switch to Hardware Abstraction Layer (HAL) in PC-BSD 1.3 was correct and expects the problems to be ironed out by the FreeBSD developers in the near future. Besides HAL, one other issue that has come up since the release is an installer bug which can, in some cases, cause loss of data. If you are planning to install PC-BSD 1.3, please read this blog post before placing your installation media into the CD-ROM drive.
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Thinking about taking that long-delayed LPI certification exam in the new year? Then we have some great news for you: Karl Schock has emailed us to announce the release of elpicx 0.3, a KNOPPIX-based live CD with a collection of documentation, exercises, example solutions and simulators to help you prepare for the exams of the Linux Professional Institute (LPI). Available in English and German, the CD includes a number of LPI training manuals in PDF format, as well as entertaining exam simulators for LPI exams 101, 102, 201 and 202, where you can test your knowledge. Besides the live CD, the project has also released a dual-boot live DVD with KNOPPIX and CentOS as two available options to boot into. For more information please visit the project's web site at elearnit.de. Here is a quick link to download the elpicx 0.3 English live CD: elpicx_03_20060623_CD_EN.iso (691MB, MD5). Update: here is a link to the elpicx CD torrent: elpicx_en_cd.torrent.
The elpicx live CD provides a number of ways to prepare for the LPI exams.
(full image size: 137kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
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| Released Last Week |
SystemRescueCd 0.3.1
An updated stable version of SystemRescueCd has been released. From the changelog: "Updated the kernel to Linux 2.6.18.6 with Reiser4; updated ntfs-3g to 20061218 (full NTFS read and write support); optimized space usage to reduce the size of the disc; added option 'dodhcp' to get a dynamic IP at boot time; added option 'dostartx' to run X.Org environment at boot time; added lshw (hardware listing); improved support for hardware."
Endian Firewall 2.1
A new community release of Red Hat-based Endian Firewall is now available. What's new in version 2.1? "GUI: check boxes instead of multi-select select boxes within network wizard, SSL certificate will only be generated if the host or domain name is changed; VPN: OpenVPN server displays CA certificate, gives the possibility to configure port and protocol, allows to configure multiple networks per user; rewrite of backup service: each backup can be downloaded with a single click, user can decide what to include; other changes: merged in changes of R*EL, updated SpamAssassin, p3scan, ClamAV and fcron, solved problem of gaps within graphs, installation, restores and factory default stores meta-information about the used archive...." More details in the release notes.
SabayonLinux 3.25
SabayonLinux 3.25 has been released, now with the latest X.Org 7.2, the new Kernel Virtual Machine, Beryl 0.1.4 and other enhancements. From the changelog: "Linux kernel 2.6.19.1; the first live implementation of the new Kernel Virtual Machine (KVM) supporting both Intel and AMD architectures; X.Org 7.2 RC3 with better LCD/CRT display detection, improved Intel graphics cards support and more stable ATI open source drivers; new NetworkManager stack that supports many wireless cards; Beryl 0.1.4 with a nearly perfect OpenGL auto-detection and configuration; NVIDIA drivers 1.0-9631 and latest ATI drivers; new Kicker menu picture and better default cursors...." Read the release announcement and release notes for more information.
Puppy Linux 2.13
Barry Kauler has announced the release of Puppy Linux 2.13: "The final release of version 2.13 has been uploaded. This build has the complete suite of kernel drivers. More compact builds with a subset of the full driver suite and different selections of applications will follow soon." From the release notes: "NdisWrapper upgraded to v1.33, which fixes the problem; Soxgui, a great little front-end for SoX and FFmpeg, which can perform various operations on audio files, including file format conversion; Geany text editor upgraded to v0.10; Isomaster ISO file editor tool upgraded to v0.6; SeaMonkey upgraded to v1.0.6...." Read the release announcement and release notes for further details.
Bluewhite64 Linux 11.0 Live CD
A 64-bit Slackware-based live CD, Bluewhite64 Linux 11.0, has been released: "Bluewhite64 11.0 Live CD runs entirely from CD and includes almost all packages from Bluewhite64 11.0, including updated packages from the patches directory. The Live CD was created using Linux Live 5.5.0 scripts and uses the Unification File System. You will not see any differences between running this live CD and installing Bluewhite64 11.0 Linux on your hard drive. You can run the same software from the Live CD, for your server or workstation, in just a few seconds. Bluewhite64 11.0 Live CD main features are: Linux 2.6.17.13 SMP-ready kernel, GCC 3.4.6 with NPTL support, X.Org 6.9, KDE 3.5.4, Firefox 1.5.0.9...." Here is the full release announcement.
trixbox 2.0
Fonality has announced the release of trixbox 2.0, a CentOS-based distribution featuring the Asterisk open source PBX software: "Fonality today released trixbox 2.0, a free, easy to use, open source telephony and application platform. The new version, available for immediate download, can be installed in less than 15 minutes, supports multiple languages and provides increased reliability and stability, flexible user customization, and support for a wide-range of hardware vendors. The software also allows the community to upgrade individual deployment components versus having to reinstall from scratch with each upgrade. trixbox.org will also be hosting its first ever training Webinar entitled 'Building An Open Source IP-PBX With trixbox 2.0' on January 30, 2007." See the press release for more information.
LG3D LiveCD 3.0
LG3D LiveCD 3.0, a bootable CD featuring the recently released version 1.0 or the Java-based 3D Desktop known as Project Looking Glass, is now available for download: "Finally LG3D LiveCD 3.0 has been released. Based on SLAX 5.1.8, this LG3D LiveCD 3.0 showcases Sun Microsystem's stunning 3D desktop Project Looking Glass 3D (LG3D). New in this release: includes the first stable LG3D release (1.0); improved stability and reliability; early prototype of hard disk installer; updated and simplified project homepage." Read the release announcement and release notes for further information.
KNOPPIX 5.1.1
Klaus Knopper has released a bug-fix update to KNOPPIX 5.1, with corrections to the Kicker bug and update to Firefox. From the changelog: "V5.1.1 2007-01-04. Updated Kicker and kdebase (while fixing a nasty bug that made Kicker 'disappear' in all but the first desktop; updated ntfs-3g (writing speed improvements); sudo helper for kdesu; X.Org updates from Debian unstable; IceWeasel and IceDove (Firefox and Thunderbird) updates; kwlan for WLAN with WEP/WPA in Knoppix menu; added VLAN configurator; fixed '2nd reboot fails' bug when installing Knoppix with ReiserFS by downgrading GRUB; added French translation to mkbootdev; removed KDE documentation and Java demos from CD...."
Dreamlinux 2.2
Dreamlinux 2.2 is out: "The final version of Dreamlinux 2.2 Multimedia Edition has been released. Having many improvements compared with the previous version, Dreamlinux 2.2 Multimedia Edition brings countless new features. The kernel is 2.6.18, and the distro uses Debian 'testing' repositories. A greater number of applications for multimedia have been added, allowing to open and manipulate many different types of audio and video files. Beyond the many updates, other refinements have also been incorporated: upgrade assistant, new control panel, and the 'Easy-Install' application that allows the user to install non-Debian programs like Google Earth, Picasa, Opera, etc." Please visit the distribution's product page to learn more about the new release.
Zenwalk Linux 4.2
Jean-Philippe Guillemin has announced the release of Zenwalk Linux 4.2: "Version 4.2 of Zenwalk Linux is officially released. This version comes with the Linux kernel 2.6.18.6 and X.Org 7.1.1, along with new features and hundreds of updated packages. Some of the more noticeable changes include 'Zenpanel' which is Zenwalk's new system configuration panel that makes customizing your Linux system easy. Zenwalk 4.2 desktop introduces a new panel layout and RSS feed reader that was added to Xfce. Howl has been replaced with the more modern and supported Avahi Zeroconf subsystem. Python has been upgraded to version 2.5 to bring new features and stability to the overall system." More details in the release announcement.
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Development and unannounced releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
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Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
New distributions added to waiting list
- BOSS GNU/Linux. BOSS (Bharat Operating System Solutions) GNU/Linux is a Linux distribution developed by C-DAC for enhancing the use of free and open source software in India. Made specifically for the Indian environment, it consists of a pleasing desktop environment coupled with Indian language support and other packages that are most relevant for use in the government domain.
- elpicx. elpicx is a KNOPPIX-based Linux distribution with the goal to prepare users for the exams of the Linux Professional Institute (LPI). The CD includes documentation, exercises, example solutions and simulators.
- Turanid Linux. Turanid Linux is a new Turkish Linux distribution. That's about all we know about it at this stage.
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DistroWatch database summary
And this concludes our latest issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 15 January 2007. Until then,
Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Cool distros (by Mark South on 2007-01-08 09:57:19 GMT from Switzerland)
Good news that there are still new distros being created, especially some that care about keeping software free. And for those of you who like small fast distros, check out the latest Puppy Linux, it's at a (lucky!) version 2.13 now :-)
Thanks for DistroWatch Weekly, Ladislav.
2 • elipx and gnewsense (by dark child on 2007-01-08 10:20:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
Looks like an interesting distro. I am downloading it now and maybe I can motivate myself to start revising for the LPIC Level 2.
I generally like the idea of gNewSense. There is a lot of hardware out there that can work well with only free software, so its good that some distros are getting rid of the proprietary stuff thats creeping into many distros. I am not against proprietary software, but I think we need some Linux distros that are just based on free software so that people can choose what they want to use.
Thanks again Ladislav for a good edition of Distrowatch Weekly.
3 • Mepis and Elpicx (by Soloact on 2007-01-08 10:21:19 GMT from United States)
Finally, even though "beta", SimplyMepis has put out an AMD64 version. This is the first 64-bit OS that "everything works out-of-the-box" for my older socket 754 Athlon 64.
This is important for me, your average end-user, who wants everything to just work right the first time.
Now, Elpicx, will probably be a good way for me to learn all of the intricate workings of Linux, so eventually I'll be able to know what the good Linux techs are talking about.
And no, I don't use the animal name in front of Linux.
Thank you, Ladislav, for continuing to bring this site and news to us!
4 • RE: elipx and gnewsense (by dark child on 2007-01-08 10:24:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
Oops, I meant to enter elpicx in the title of my previous post and not elipx.
5 • Turanid Linux (by Ariszló on 2007-01-08 10:24:57 GMT from Hungary)
Here are some screenshots:
http://turanid.ifastnet.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=4
6 • Xubuntu's bad (by Yasser M on 2007-01-08 10:37:44 GMT from India)
I agree...Xubuntu Dapper/Edgy seems a bit bloated and I HATE that UGLY Gnome mockup they've put in. Whats the use of those UGLY Gnome-like panels on the top & bottom when the DEFAULT Xfce desktop looks SO MUCH NICER.
Xubuntu should learn a few things from the WONDERFUL Dreamlinux & Zenwalk.
http://www.dreamlinux.com.br/english/index.html
http://www.zenwalk.org/
Cheers!
7 • gNewSense (by Andy on 2007-01-08 10:40:05 GMT from Finland)
For me, one of the most significant comments in the description of gNewSense is "It is also remarkable how little was really sacrificed". Does this perhaps indicate that there is a trend more away from proprietary elements than towards them than most of us realised? I mean, if the proprietary can be removed and so little sacrificed, perhaps this move is already happening by choice. If so, we can hope for further improvements in the contributions of free software to make the proprietary even more redundant over time. The truth is that I don't know, but it's an interesting thought.
8 • Xubuntu (by Alan on 2007-01-08 11:03:56 GMT from United States)
I do think that Xubuntu is kinda getting outside of it goals, but it leads me to think there might be room for one more ubuntu derivative. One that is also based around XFCE, but offers a full desktop aimed at more modern hardware (aka faster ones then xubuntu is geared for). I do use xubuntu but I do customize is quite a bit, and make it funtion more like a mac. Anywho, all I am trying to say is that maybe a part of the Xubuntu team should look at maybe creating a distro based on XFCE that is geared towards newer computers.
~Alan
9 • xubuntu/ubuntu same thing (by eternal on 2007-01-08 12:49:53 GMT from Croatia)
xfce is just an uglier gnome (a statement horrible enough, 'cause gnome is way too ugly). so i don't know what's the big deal about it. after all, if you like ubuntu so much, just install manualy some other lite desktop on it and carry on with yor life.
10 • Re: #9 - "xfce is just an uglier gnome" (by Ariszló on 2007-01-08 12:59:17 GMT from Hungary)
Uglier? See it yourself:
http://www.dreamlinux.com.br/english/saiba-screen.html
11 • xubuntu (by JimK on 2007-01-08 13:05:31 GMT from United States)
I use xubuntu on my G3 iMac with 64MB of ram, and it works OK, but I'm going to switch to fluxbuntu as soon as they release a stable version.
From DW's fluxbuntu page:
Fluxbuntu is a light-weight, standards-compliant, Ubuntu-based Linux distribution featuring the Fluxbox window manager. The project's primary goal is to develop an operating system that would run on a wide range of mobile devices and computers, both low-end and high-end.
12 • Linux for old computers (by Anonymous on 2007-01-08 13:23:17 GMT from Germany)
Linux for old computers??
ok, i have one: with pentium 90 and 64 mb ram.
which modern linuxdistro can i use?
13 • TrueBSD (by Anony_mouse_Cow_hurd on 2007-01-08 13:28:25 GMT from United States)
i am going to wipe PCBSD off and give TrueBSD a try, my problems with PCBSD is configuring CUPS i tried both KDE's printer config and http://localhost:631 both of which were VERY slow and buggy to totally unresponsive & top showed 100% CPU. and it did not come with the libraries to mount any of my ext3 Linux partitions if there were there they did not work, and Kooka even after installing would not run my flatbed scanner, also using my digital camera would not work even after compiling gphoto2 (HAL would not even acknowledge my camera), all of which are necessary for my profession. good thing trusty ol' Slackware runs all my required hardware or i would be in trouble...
better luck next time PCBSD - maybe by 1.5 these things will be fixed...
14 • Linux on small machines (by Ed Borasky on 2007-01-08 13:40:33 GMT from United States)
"Linux for old computers (by Anonymous on 2007-01-08 13:23:17 GMT from Germany)
Linux for old computers??
ok, i have one: with pentium 90 and 64 mb ram.
which modern linuxdistro can i use?"
I haven't tried recently, but I did manage to get Debian "woody" to boot with a KDE desktop (KDE 2 something IIRC) on a Toshiba Libretto 70 -- 133 MHz Pentium MMX with only 32 MB of RAM. With 64 MB, you should be able to get Damn Small to boot with a desktop. If it will boot a CD, you could try a Gentoo "stage3" install + X + fluxbox or IceWM. That will get you a current kernel and toolchain, the Gentoo package manager and a usable desktop. But I don't know what apps will run in 64 MB these days -- I've got 512 MB and a lot of things are straining. :)
If it won't boot a CD, you're probably blessed with or stuck with, depending on your perspective, a Debian install over the network from a boot floppy. In that case, install the minimum "Sarge" or "Etch", depending on how current you want to be. Then add in fluxbox or IceWM and you should be on the air.
15 • new distros and old (by lefty.crupps at 2007-01-08 13:46:46 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the morning read! Lots of fun to read about the host of new releases coming out now, and its piquing my interest in some of the not-so-new ones as well. Speaking of older machines and a good modern distro, I have a p2 233/128mb laptop that I can get to run Puppy or DSL, and thats about it. Modern distros all want more RAM and do better with a gig of swap -- can anyone show otherwise with a blog post (or whatever) showing examples? Free software can win but its often asked to do so with older machines, no easy feat when I want to win over family or friends and they only offer their atticware... And unfortunately most WM are seen as bad (by newbies) if they don't act somewhat like MS...
16 • re 12 Linux for old computers (by dbrion on 2007-01-08 13:48:37 GMT from France)
Damn Small Linux seems good (from vmplaying an image, I saw ~25Mo RAM; this leaves some room for your apps or ypur data; it uses a 386; however, I do not think external hardware will mount by itself ). It is somewhat mature, bu new enough(nov 2006), and it is the tiniest memory print I could have working (Puppy Linux seems getting more memory hungry, at least this last version)...
This answer is based on simulations (VMplayer getting free may have contributed to Distrowatch increase last year, as ppl could try) on more powerful computers.. => perhaps you should try...
The DSL web page is great, and explains clearly how to extend it, if needed.
BYTW
Gnewsense
seemed promising; however, as it is Ubuntu based, I could not test it 'cause it relies on Web to bring missing packages (for me Freedom KB support) It is somewhat paradoxal to claim one can bring GNU/linuw everywere and to rely on IT connections to fix misses)... Cygwin choose the opposite way (one makes its mirror, then install if necessary; the mirror can be copied where one wants it to be installed) and it is a real intellectual progress...
At the beginning I thought Cygwin was meant to disgust pple from Windows; her (Cygwin) politic (plus VMware + nice GNU ports) is so clever I shall keep Microsoft Windows XP.
For nice screens, do not forget Elive, KateOS, and Zenwalk : I do not think it is linked with the desktop, by rather to the presence / the taste of designers...
17 • Linux for OLD machines ... (by just john on 2007-01-08 14:02:24 GMT from United States)
Anybody feel like rising to the challenge of a "modern" Linux distro that comes in diskette images? I've got a few old laptops that could probably just about handle a lightweight browser and email app, but they don't have CD drives.
18 • Answ 15 : if you have a new PC, you can test if they need "a gig of" (by dbrion on 2007-01-08 14:06:51 GMT from France)
swap
with VMplayre or Qemu (I didnot read your post before answering; I agree with the rest). I tested WhiteBox Liberation and an early version of Mandriva 2007 (in late 2006, ~200 M of RAM) with no swap. Mandriva 2006 works OK with 256 M RAM, without swapping, on a real self assembled PC.
All were configured not to have IT connections (which makes swap necessary) and configuration and making of applications was seriously tested (it needs ressource). The choice of having no swaps flows from the fact that swapping is , in this configuration, linked to softs potentially having memory leaks, it is better to stop brutally and think a little if there is a problem (it happened once in 2 years)..
19 • No subject (by Seige on 2007-01-08 14:20:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
Anon 12 & Ed 14:
Puppy Linux will boot its GUI into 32Mb, provided there's a tiny swap partition or 64Mb without. Full speed on all apps within 128Mb. Knoppix live-CD will also boot into 64Mb text, 96Mb without; v5.1.1 provides a truly staggering array of apps.
20 • re 10 (by eternal on 2007-01-08 14:39:33 GMT from Croatia)
you're right.
xfce looks better than gnome :) an apology to xfce developers and users for making a comparision with something too ugly (gnome, of course) :)))))
anyway it's obvious that i'm a KDE fan 'cause it just looks better.
and if i heard right (never tested) there are other desktops with even less hardware requirements than xfce. so i don't see a point in making just another ubuntu, with xfce, when users say it's not fast like it should be.
and xfce reminds me on gnome,so i'm naturally sceptical about it. i can't stand the addiotional taskbar on the top. it's so impractical. and ugly.
21 • elpicx live cd (by sweetnsourbkr on 2007-01-08 14:50:29 GMT from United States)
Glad to hear there are good tools out there for people like us. You read my mind: it's my New year's resolution!
22 • elpicx (by Karl Schock on 2007-01-08 15:31:37 GMT from Germany)
Hello,
I am pleased that elpicx is mentioned here on DistroWatch Weekly. :-)
But on the other side I am sorry because so many people tried to
download elpicx that my (little, small, tiny) server breaked down every
5 to 10 minutes. So I am forced to stop the download for some times. :-(
Bye
Karl
23 • Old Hardware (by Scott Wilson on 2007-01-08 15:41:17 GMT from United States)
I realize that there are many who read distrowatch from other countries. But in the US why use really old hardware? A new PC can be purchased or around $350. A used one for less then that, (used being a few years old) granted they are not ultimate boxes but are great for web surfing, email, word processing or spreadsheets.
Sure they are OK for routers but you can buy a linksys router for $50-$60 dollars.
I have three machines , a dell notebook (2 months old), A generic box one year old and a used emachine (2 years old) Everything else I took to the recycling center. Slowest machine is 1.6GHZ with 256MB of ram.
At some point a 486 Pentium, Pentium II machine should be heading for the recycling yards. Gee How many of you are still using the analog brick sized cell phones?
24 • re 17 (by dbrion on 2007-01-08 15:42:57 GMT from France)
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/install_from_floppy.html
seems a hint (perhaps googling puppy floppy?) -it is given in the hope it is useful, with no gwarranties-.
PS I never use swap when vmplaying (and, as old PC have old disks, that are slower and less reliable than now, one should try to avoid it -and it is soo easy to add if needed..) ....
25 • elpicx (by Karl Schock on 2007-01-08 15:51:22 GMT from Germany)
Maybe ftp://ftp.leg.uct.ac.za/pub/stuff/elpicx/0.3
is an alternative for downloads.
Bye
Karl
26 • xubuntu is messed up (by lmf on 2007-01-08 15:57:12 GMT from United States)
Calling Xubuntu a Linux for low-end machines is insulting to the Linux world. It's "Bill Gates low end" that they're talking about: 1.2 ghz, 384 mb of ram. Frankly, Ubuntu runs about the same as Windows XP on my 1 ghz laptop, and Xubuntu does a little better, but not much. Linux has so much more to offer to people with real low-end equipment than Xubuntu.
Debian Etch with XFCE is quite suitable on my 233 mhz box with 384 mb of ram. And as for the 1 ghz laptop, it flies whatever I'm doing.
The developers need to realize that by definition you can't have a complete computing solution with a lightweight distribution. That's the point. Otherwise, you are forced to conclude that a non-lightweight distribution is developed by idiots because everything could be done with fewer resources. If you use Etch with XFCE, you are able to add only the applications you need. You can use Thunderbird, but you don't have to.
I think we may have run into the limitations of Ubuntu. It's a good starting point for Linux, but the dictatorial style combined with the well-intentioned but hard for some to accept philosophy of doing whatever it takes to appeal to Windows users, at the expense of experienced users and those who believe in the principles of free software, tell me that K/X/Ubuntu have probably peaked. The Xubuntu problems are just one of many such signs. I gave up Ubuntu for Debian a few weeks ago and have not looked back (I love having a system my way that runs without a lag).
Good for you if you like Ubuntu, but frankly Ubuntu is not the Ubuntu of version 5.04. It no longer feels like Linux, it feels more like a commercial OS, put together AOL-style for people wanting something that "just works". Unfortunately computing for grandmothers does not appeal to everyone.
27 • No subject (by m on 2007-01-08 15:57:42 GMT from Poland)
How frequently zenwalk will be released in the future? 2 releases per month? :D
28 • 23 (by lmf on 2007-01-08 16:01:07 GMT from United States)
> But in the US why use really old hardware?
Let me guess, you're a Republican, right? You also think that the Hurricane Katrina victims were just too dumb to leave, right?
For many individuals EVEN IN THE US $50 is a lot of money. Why shouldn't those people have access to computers? Particularly when they have machines that will work for everything they want to do.
29 • any news on dyne:bolic? (by just john on 2007-01-08 16:01:34 GMT from United States)
Their site's been down for what seems like weeks. Has anybody here heard anything?
(And thanks, dbrion, for #24.)
30 • older hardware (by ray carter at 2007-01-08 16:03:12 GMT from United States)
IMHO - 90mhz is pushing the limit of usability; but I've installed Elive on a P166 with 64mb and it runs quite well - probably worth a shot.
31 • RE 24 But in the US why use really old hardware (by dbrion on 2007-01-08 16:03:29 GMT from France)
Because recycling pollutes et que le cendrier n'est pas plein..
By the way, when one of my friends asks me to install GNU/Lx on a 5 years box (and to respect Microsoft Windows 98 -he bought-), I simulate the installation on a 768 M RAM laptop -I bought-
and he is happy.... Of course, his name is not Joe User ( every seller understands this; Microsoft people know since the early [19]80s that people have a mother language, a personnality, an age, specific tastes and economical status....).
32 • re 26 (by eternal on 2007-01-08 16:05:22 GMT from Croatia)
i don't realy see how is ubuntu friendly to a windows users, with the idiotic sudo philosophy. just because they use proprietry drivers? or what?
33 • elpicx, Xubuntu... (by IMQ on 2007-01-08 16:07:42 GMT from United States)
Karl Schock,
You have underestimated the power of distro hoppers! ;-)
Could you set up the download CD/DVD via bittorrent?
I am looking forward to trying out elpicx when it becomes available for download again.
Thanks for sharing the fruit of your labor. :-)
About Xubuntu,
I have tried both Xubuntu LiveCD and alternate. And I have to agree with some of the comments here. It turned me off that Xubuntu tried to make itself look like Ubuntu. Luckily, there are two Debian/Ubuntu based distros that use XFCE if one prefere XFCE: DreamLinux and Xfld. Both are LiveCD and both are installable.
Actually, there is another potential XFCE distro based on Debian is the Debian official XFCE installation CD, which can be download from the weekly-build.
34 • why use old hardware? (by Anonymous on 2007-01-08 16:10:32 GMT from United States)
But in the US why use really old hardware? A new PC can be purchased or around $350. A used one for less then that, (used being a few years old) granted they are not ultimate boxes but are great for web surfing, email, word processing or spreadsheets.
Starving artist here! The $350 box I built last year replaced my Mac SE/30 I bought used in 1994. If it does what you need, why upgrade? I expect my box will be running Puppy Linux (version 23) by 2017.
Also, a lot of people are opposed to the idea that everything is disposable and the waste that goes along with it. So you use something as long as possible, and then use it a little bit longer. Again, if it it does what you need, why upgrade?
35 • Linux for old PC's (by Anonymous on 2007-01-08 16:12:23 GMT from United States)
I've had good luck with STX (now called SaxenOS) on old PC's. Although the slowest PC I have used it on is a PII 300MHz, still fast compared to your 90MHz P1.
36 • whine whine (by Scott Wilson on 2007-01-08 16:24:08 GMT from United States)
My politics have nothing to do with it. Economics, why fix it when it will cost more then replacing it? Its the data that is important not the hardware. I work for one of those onsite PC repair companies, Once I give them a quote, rich or poor, 99% of the time they opt for a new PC. If they are using a REALLY old PC, and its working fine why switch to Linux? When Windows 3.1, 95 or 98 works with the equipment they have?
Funny, I help out at a school, that used to refurbish Old PC's to give (for Free) to the those that are on the lower end of the economic scale. (win98 machines) Nobody wanted them.
They are now getting bids to have them hauled to a recycling center.
37 • 32 (by lmf on 2007-01-08 16:25:27 GMT from United States)
I'm not saying Ubuntu is a perfect substitute for Windows, just that market share is the one and only goal of Ubuntu, regardless of what they have to sacrifice, so their goal is to be friendly for Windows users. Whether they achieve that goal is another question.
That does raise a point I had not thought about. Sudo and other measures are critical for security. Will Ubuntu allow everyone to run as root so as to make their distribution easier for Windows users? Let's wait and see on 7.04.
38 • No34 (by Surge on 2007-01-08 16:28:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
Fortunately, out here in the real world, we haven't had the benefit of your brainwashing. We don't rush to put our hard earned into the pockets of greedy capitalists. Why throw away $350 when there are plenty of distros that will give bleeding edge performance on something picked up as scrap by the roadside. Some of us value the planet!
39 • RE#38 (by Scott Wilson on 2007-01-08 16:42:03 GMT from United States)
I think you were referring to me not to #34.
Any way, if your handy with a screw drive and your time is not important to you, by all means get Linux working on that Old PC. but as #34 states if it works with the current set up why upgrade or change?
40 • Elpicx (by Scott Wilson on 2007-01-08 16:50:07 GMT from United States)
I will have to check that out, I'm using CentOS, and two Red Hat enterprise books to prepare for the Red Hat Certs. The dual boot DVD is interesting, that wahy you can prepare for the debian based or the rpm based tests.
41 • OLD machines (by just john on 2007-01-08 16:52:29 GMT from United States)
SW: (currently post #39, but if any upper messages get deleted, that number changes): For instance: When my company ditches its old hardware, it doesn't transfer the Windows license. So, you get a half-decade old machine with NO installed OS.
42 • DWW (by Brandon on 2007-01-08 16:54:33 GMT from United States)
Only DistroWatch Weekly could make me look foward to Mondays...
43 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-01-08 17:22:15 GMT from United States)
> Any way, if your handy with a screw drive and your time is not important to you, by all means get Linux working on that Old PC.
I see, you're actually a Republican Windows user. What the hell do you use a "screw drive" for when installing Linux? (Maybe this is a troll?)
I can also install Debian faster than I can dig around in the Windows registry to pull out this week's spyware. I guess you have not actually installed a recent (last 3 years) Linux distribution based on your comments. True, they would apply to Linux in 1996.
44 • 64-bit linux (by Snowman on 2007-01-08 17:29:46 GMT from United States)
I'm still looking for a distro that will run 64-bit on an Intel 965 chipset. The nice thing would be to have the IDE drives detected after the kernel loads. So far none seem to do it correctly without typing extra boot parameters. OpenSUSE comes close, but once the distro is installed to the drive (SATA) the optical (IDE) drives disappear on reboot.
45 • OLD PC and Windows RE 41 (by dbrion on 2007-01-08 17:40:09 GMT from France)
If your company has sound management principles, the PCs she 'gives up' are in good state (and not roadside junks). She has not to carry them to a bin, which is expensive and polluting. If Windows worked on them, why -rebuy- it (at least you won't be flamed as an arrogant narrow-minded beggar)... GNU is very good simulated or ported on >$1000 laptops (sorry, I do not know the change ratio) working on Windows XP.... Of course, GNU:Linuz is so wide and there are so few bugs linuxers can restrict their conquest to Jane and Joe....
46 • old pc (by Anonymous on 2007-01-08 17:41:22 GMT from Germany)
i have also better computer than p90, but i sometimes try new distros on old hardware. i was succesfull with debian sarge, xfree, icewm, firefox for alternate internetconnections-os.
47 • Linux for old computers/xubuntu (by Anonymous on 2007-01-08 17:43:36 GMT from United States)
Sad about xububtu it was the only only I could get to boot on k6/2 and pII machines. No amount of memory would help.
The new puppy 2.13 I got to load on on machine with 96mb ram and got it to load toram and was fast too. I made a small ext3 partition on the 1gb ide drive and got it to dual boot (grub) with win95 and use the win95 partion for data in linux. DSL works too but is a bit harder to get setup and I have to run netconfig every time because I have fixed IP on my network.
I haven't tried the cohab mode lately in Puppy but have a canditate to try it on. You just need 100mb for the 3 files and 100mb for a swap. It does not have a CD-ROM but I borrowed a usb external drive and puppy works well with it. If yours will not boot from the cd-rom there can be boot floppys found for some distros. But I agree they have been getting hard to find as of late, or you may need to use a older version. Older zenwalk is good to use for partioning and booting from a floppy. Does the new zenwalk still dump you to a command line after install? That is the only reason I don't recomend it to new users.
48 • Actually..... (by Scott Wilson on 2007-01-08 17:44:25 GMT from United States)
I work on Window based PC's, and servers. about 60% of my work is cleaning up spyware and viruses on PC's. 30 % cleaning up some want to be guru that has screwed up there neighbors PC. 10 % are Linux customers, I stop by once a month and update the servers clean ou the temp and log files ,never any real issues.
I have a multi boot pc's running all current versions CentOS, Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, OpenSuse and have used Gentoo and Free BSD. Ive been running Linux since Suse 6.2 and Red Hat 6.0. About 10 years. I have a 10 gb partition on one PC for Tax software and PC games that I play.
Fantasy world = every one will use Linux, and the world will be open source friendly.
Real world = Windows cause you are not going to find Linux on joe average's PC, if he does use Linux, I doubt that he will ever call me for service.
If you live with old hardware, you will need to be handy with a screw DRIVER to replace the old worn out devices as they fail.
But enough of the trolls!
49 • Elpicx (by neo on 2007-01-08 17:46:15 GMT from Canada)
we need torrents for those Elpicx ISO images... prettry pretty please!
50 • I have a new love... (by spiritraveller on 2007-01-08 17:49:36 GMT from United States)
and her name is Zenwalk.
I've been using it for a few months now, and it lives up to its name.
It's fast, not bloated, not overly complex, just one program per application. All video and audio formats I've thrown at it just work without having to download 3 different media players to do it.
For a distro, the default install is the whole point (otherwise you'd just use Linux From Scratch, right?). The Zenwalk team understands that.
It also works great on my seven year old mutt of a desktop computer. But even on a newer, faster machine, I would choose Zenwalk, because it leaves me with the power to control my machine without having to earn a PhD first. Since it's based on Slackware, you don't have to learn a hundred new distro-specific concepts. It's just Linux.
51 • Zenwalk releases (by Claus Futtrup on 2007-01-08 17:57:52 GMT from Denmark)
No. 27 ("m" from Poland)
>How frequently zenwalk will be released in the future? 2 releases per month? :D
Zenwalk was released this weekend - 6 weeks after the previous release. For a distribution under quite some (semi-heavy) development it appears to me as good sensible choice to "ground" your work with a new stable release every 1-2 months. It assures that users can jump on the train, safely. I would love to see a release only once every 3 months or so (for example) but the fast development of the distro makes this a bad option. This is our way to work with our Linux. I hope you can respect that.
Best regards,
Claus
52 • #36 - Old PCs (by spiritraveller on 2007-01-08 18:01:44 GMT from United States)
"If they are using a REALLY old PC, and its working fine why switch to Linux? When Windows 3.1, 95 or 98 works with the equipment they have?"
You are joking right? Because none of the above operating systems are supported by anyone who can actually fix the bugs (ie, who has access to the source code), and if you put any of them on the internet, they will be "pwned" within minutes.
Nobody writes programs for those platforms anymore. Much easier to switch to a supported platform. It's not as if you're going to get MSOffice 2007 running on them.
Screwdriver? Yeah, you must be a troll. In 7-8 years of running Linux, I have never had to open the machine for anything except replacing hardware. Linux doesn't require you to open up the machine any more than Windows does. Hell, Windows forces you to upgrade the hardware at least every five years as that is the rate at which they drop support so that they can sell more operating systems. Then you have this symbiotic churning relationship where MS makes more money because more preinstalled systems are sold, and Intel and AMD make more money for the same reason.
The whole Windows industry is constantly trying to get people to upgrade... but they don't provide anything more than eye-candy as an incentive.
53 • Old PC's (by Chris on 2007-01-08 18:35:32 GMT from United States)
I have to respectfully disagree with Scott. I started a non profit where I refurb PC's and give to kids that don't have a computer. I have my own custom linux OS that allows me to refurb anything from a P1 with 32mb ram on up. My goal is not to give the 'perfect' PC but to get a computer in the home of a child that doesn't have one that allows them to type papers and play educational games. In this day and age, a kid without a computer is a crime. I hate it when I hear of companies sending thousands of working computers to the recycling graveyard. There is such a demand, just in my small area, that I can't refurb them fast enough.
54 • Xubuntu Bloat (by Tazix on 2007-01-08 18:36:17 GMT from United States)
As an avid Xubuntu user I have several comments in regards to Xubuntu's "bloat".
So... I'll start off with the positive... Edgy Eft is just about perfect as far as functionality goes. (Minus having to install codecs, DVD decrypting, and Fusesmb in order to get network shares working in Thunar). As for the "bloat" of it... there's a ton of KDE and GNOME libs that are not loading... so, it's still more lightweight to a point.
What the major bloat is, is XORG. And if you install propriatery binary drivers, like Nvidia's... between the two, you are defeating the purpose of going "lightweight".
My "bloat" concerns on the next release, have more to do with XORG, and enabling 3D Desktop BS. That's not what XFCE is about.
On to the negative... XORG shouldn't be used in Xubuntu. They should use TinyX / Xvesa / SmallX, whatever DSL uses, and definitely NOT have 3D desktop stuff on by default (If that's the case with the next release). They could probably also trim some fat with a leaner session manager. As for the apps... that leaves more room for the "more functional" applications, even if some are considered to be "bloaty" (Like Sylpheed vs. Thunderbird). However, this doesn't seem to be the Xubuntu team's objective (truly trimming fat), which does irk me.
I want it as functional as possible (sometimes requiring more 'bloaty" apps), and as lean as possible at the same time.
As for the "uglyness"... I prefer it's looks to KDE and Gnome. Simple and functional. I even change the default "gnome look" to (as I put on my asbestos suit), to be more like "Windows" by deleting the bottom panel, moving top panel to bottom, and adding back the task list stuff, tray icon stuff, and view desktop to the panel.
Anyway... yes, I agree the Xubuntu team needs to trim the fat more... but not necessarily because of the default apps.
-Taz
55 • Upgrades, IT and old PCs (by dbrion on 2007-01-08 18:40:16 GMT from France)
If version xx of a given OS works OK on a given PC, why upgrade? One can buy any OS and upgrade only if it is proven (how) it will work better ("be payed for a bug free OS and shut up..."). If there are spywares, etc .. on the web, why connect to it (cybercafés have good antiviruses, if they do not suffice, a recent live rescue DVD may work).
At work, I use Windows XP in similar conditions without problems (I kept it running for 4 months : no IT, no installations outside Sourceforge and Cygwin). I connect to Linux servers (4go RAM, 4 cores) 3 years old who stop every 5 months (system logs are cleaned by misspellingless crontabs).
I do not know the meaning of an 'average' user: statisticians, before averaging, think a little to know whether it has some meaning (the concept of average gender/sex would be sterile). Sellers, in the real world, try to split the market into portions (children, old ppl, etc) and to respect anyones specificity (that is the honorable way Microsoft got rich).
56 • distros galore && old pc's (by warpengi on 2007-01-08 19:53:34 GMT from Canada)
My my, there are so many interesting distros and I have so little time. It's wonderful to see and frustrating at the same time. I used to install and test drive a lot of distros. These days that time is spent toying with virtualization, servers and remote administration. It's all Linux based, though, so it's all good.
I won't bother restating the very good points others have made regarding using/reusing older hardware. Even in the u.s. I am sure there are many people who want older (free) computers. I doubt very much that Scott's experience of people not taking the computers offered was lack of demand. More likely it was due to lack of awareness about the offer and/or lack of accessibility.
Here in Vancouver, British Columbia we have a free ISP offering dial up service for everyone and web hosting for non profit organizations. They have no shortage of users despite the fact that there are multiple ISP's offering high speed access throughout the region.
Not everyone needs a new computer and not everyone needs broadband access. There's no reason they should have to buy those things when there are plenty of used computers that still work fine.
57 • Deleted posts (by Rob from Mt. Healthy on 2007-01-08 20:10:38 GMT from United States)
In a post seen above, just-john talked about problems of referring to previous posts by post number : " ...but if any upper messages get deleted, that number changes..."
If, instead of deleting offensive posts. Ladislav could just replace the text and subject line with something like "Post deleted due to content" or similar wording. Then the post # and subsequent references to it would not get messed up.
And I agree with #42 by Brandon (might be #41 by now ...) DW is one thing I look forward to on Mondays.
58 • TrueBSD (by anon on 2007-01-08 20:53:52 GMT from United States)
I tried TrueBSD and liked its size and focus. Unfortunately, I had some problems such as Abiword crashing if I typed anything into a new document. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to the next release. And hopefully the next Freesbie isn't too far away.
59 • More attention to 64-Bit Linux ! (by pp on 2007-01-08 23:33:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
Lot's of talk of old hardware here today. BUT....
We _should_ all read this essay by Eric Raymond, I highly recommend it - very interesting:
http://catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html
He essentially argues that the dominant OS for the future 64-bit platform is being decided RIGHT NOW. Whichever OS comes up with best 64-bit support & software and critical mass of users, can capture the market (or a big part of it) due to network externalities.
This essay really made me think that perhaps I would be doing a lot bigger favor to Linux by testing software and writing howto:s for 64 bit software instead of the platform of the past. And guess what. 64-bit Linux is not doing badly at all against 64-bit vista so far - but it's Mac that seems to be leading the race.
So my whole point is: DW and other leading Linux sites (and Linux power users) should get into the 64 bit business and start seriously writing about it. There is not much time to waste right now. Please read the article - it IS interesting!
60 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-01-09 00:01:43 GMT from United States)
> DW and other leading Linux sites (and Linux power users) should get into the 64 bit business and start seriously writing about it. There is not much time to waste right now. Please read the article - it IS interesting!
It would be nice if just once someone would read something written by ESR and do something him/herself and not tell other people to do something.
It's insane to abandon old computers just because ESR speculated about something related to 64-bit computing. We have the entire low-cost market to ourselves. I can't think of a better opportunity to promote Linux than as a way to salvage machines unable to run any version of Windows. Linux now has a monopoly, perhaps Linux should take advantage of it.
61 • Old computers, etc. (by ezsit on 2007-01-09 00:06:10 GMT from United States)
What is considered old? I would consider a computer unable to recognize a current hard drive (40GB or larger) to be outdated. This is not to say that these older computers are not usable, and I repair and maintain computers for several clients that fit this description.
However, if the hard drive fails on an older computer, and that computer will not recognize a new hard drive because of BIOS limitations, then it is more difficult to maintain. There are PCI/EIDE adapter cards, but these can be troublesome on older computers.
By my definition, most computers built in the last 5-6 years are still quite usable and easily maintainable. Since hard drives are the most common failure in my experience, choosing a computer that can recognize current hard drives is key. A Pentium II or Athlon/Duron class machine is still very useful. I have several clients, who, for financial reasons, cannot upgrade every few years.
62 • Wanted a distro ONLY for very old LAPTOPS (by icesurfing on 2007-01-09 00:11:07 GMT from Canada)
Pity that among all those distros, which claims to work on old PCs there is NOT a single one amongst, which can run on laptops with 32 MB of RAM!!
I have two old laptops. One of them is a Toshiba with 32 MB of RAM and the other one is an IBM with 48 MB of RAM.
Both of these laptpps are perfectly fine in evey way. I especially love my Toshiba. Except that i'm stucked with Win98, which i wish i could replace with Linux.
With old Desktop PCs, it's always easy and cheap to upgrade by adding more RAM, a larger HDD, a better video card, etc. But with old laptops, like my above-mentioned laptops, these options, almost, don't exist. Partly, because it's technically not, always, possible to add new hardware to laptops--esprecially old laptops. Partly it's extremly expensive to add any type of better hardware to the laptops.
Therefore, i hope eventually there will be a truly lite distro for old laptops and for LAPTOPS ONLY.
Right now, the only distro ( which i'm aware of) that works on truely old, legacy hardware is LittleDebian. However, this distro is in Spanish only. Hope its developers will come out with an English version sometime soon. Meanwhile, here's the link for those of who want to checkou the Little Debian:
http://littledebian.pbwiki.com
63 • 59 (by tom on 2007-01-09 00:18:00 GMT from United States)
The dominant OS, unfortunately, is not determined by the "best".
There seem to be two driving factors:
1. What is the OS installed when people buy a computer. I would bet the vast majority of people do not change the installed OS (let alone buy a no OS box).
2. What is the OS purchased by business. Again I would bet that most people use computers at work, and they use whatever is given to them.
Windows has a virtual monopoly on these two factors and as such will remain the dominant OS, regardless of merit (or lack thereof).
For example, if all new (home) computers came with Linux pre-installed, Linux would overnight become the dominant OS, especially considering how difficult it is to download and install windows. Suddenly people would be aware of not only an alternate to windows, but the "hissed costs" of windows including antiviral software, firewalls, anti-spyware, etc.
Business will follow when business applications are available for Linux. Business needs specialized applications simply not available in Linux. Think of a basic business. What is available in Linux for applications such as accounting, payroll, inventory control, customer database, voice recognition, etc? At this point there remains a large number of applications simply not available in Linux.
[/end_rant]
For those looking for a Linux drop-in replacement for Vista,
IMO Sabayon has raised the standard. The ONLY "problem" with Sabayon is that behind it's sophisticated, user friendly, and I might add functional GUI, is that it is based on Gentoo. Not that I am knocking Gentoo mind you, but sys admin and upgrading the distro is not as easy as debian or red hat based distro's. The Sabayon solution (at the moment) is to upgrade from successive DVD's.
Oh, in case you did not know, Sabayon 3.26 is out.
http://www.linuxtracker.org/
64 • the old and the beautiful (by anonymous on 2007-01-09 01:13:21 GMT from New Zealand)
Speaking of old hardware, check out these 4MB notebook HOWTO guides:
http://7thguard.net/files/DebianHOWTO.txt
http://website.lineone.net/~brichardson/linux/4mb_laptops/4mb_Laptops.html
and there are probably a few more.
With so much discussion about the "beauty" or no of XFCE, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the new Live release of Project Looking Glass. It is rather slow, but not as bad as I expected. Parts of it were actually fun and usable and parts just weren't.
65 • Newbie distros (by Theodore Dreiser on 2007-01-09 01:43:59 GMT from United States)
To the gentleman who posted earlier and any other newbie just coming over
from Windows, IN MY OPINION, there are only 3 distros you should look at in
order to make a pain-free transition. Those are PCLinuxOS .93A BD , Mepis
6.0-4 , or LinuxMint 2.1. You should install and evaluate them, then pick one.
You will then enjoy linux at the peak of its usability and you will be forever
converted.
And you ain't never gonna be hijacked when you visit the "girlie" sites,
honest .
66 • Re 64 : these are nice links (by dbrion on 2007-01-09 02:03:32 GMT from France)
I know 1 computer who might not be dead any more... Thanks very much.
By the way, very expensive DOS (match) boxes are sold by electronic resellers (some industrial apps were never upgraded)http://www.lextronic.fr/taskit/PP.htm [the price is about 180 US$] => 16 bits softs survive 15 yrs after they supposedly disappeared....
AFI unterstood from # 59, at 2008 {not 2009..}, an apocalyptical change would occur, with 32 bits PCs magically vanishing :
if it does not come true, one may suppose they will be considered as old. If children, industrials and poor ppl are given/sold/shown nice reliable PC, corresponding to their eventual needs ( no one needs everything is shipped in a distr: if someone uses 50 apps, it is a maximum), they will remember they were given attention (it is one of Microsofts' funded claims); what will happen if (some of them | they) get rich?
IMH and naive O ppl chose a system they are accostumed to, if they are given the choice..
67 • Regarding #26 and "just works" (by TMR on 2007-01-09 04:46:07 GMT from United States)
"Good for you if you like Ubuntu, but frankly Ubuntu is not the Ubuntu of version 5.04. It no longer feels like Linux, it feels more like a commercial OS, put together AOL-style for people wanting something that "just works". Unfortunately computing for grandmothers does not appeal to everyone"
It makes me smile everytime I read something like this. After all, who would want something that "just works."
Also, how come everytime I read something that says "Good for you if you like Ubuntu" and "computing for grandmothers does not appeal to everyone" I see subtitles in my head that say "You're a simpleton for running this" and "I'll try to be nice to you while I continue being superior."
I bet you liked REM until their music became "mainstream" ;)
68 • liux apps (by agrest at 2007-01-09 08:37:15 GMT from Poland)
And Now For Something Completley Different...
I'd like to ask if anyone heard of linux statistical software????
I have to bual boot linux and xp because there isn't SPSS-compatible linux soft
Is there any? let me know, please
69 • SPSS (by agrest on 2007-01-09 08:45:41 GMT from Poland)
if anuone could help mail me at
agrestATcompute-webDOTnet
70 • SPSS (by dbrion on 2007-01-09 09:12:18 GMT from France)
AFAIK there is no SPSS clone under linux, but R (http://www.r-project.org/) is very easily installable under any linux with a fortran compiler...: (download, configure and make...)
Normally (I just verified it) it can read (package 'foreign' default installed) SPSS files; else, there is a list of #800 packages under the CRAN (they can be installed by R or are debian *.deb : that is the way one duly claims a great lot of softs ...
Once R is installed, just type
library(help=foreign)
library(foreign)
.....
R works great under Windows, too...
71 • SPSS (by agrest on 2007-01-09 11:36:06 GMT from Poland)
tht's fine, thanks
do you know any statistical-soft-related site?
(not to bother anyone who dicusses linux distros)
are there any GUI-apps?
72 • stats sits RE 71 (by dbrion on 2007-01-09 11:57:07 GMT from France)
# do you know any statistical-soft-related site?
(http://www.r-project.org/) is a very rich site (it might take 2 | 3 days to read default docs [#(not to bother anyone who dicusses linux distros)..]), with many links....
# are there any GUI-apps?
Under Windows, yes, a good one _ 1 _...
There is a part of the site dedicated to GUIs.. Under Linux, I tested 3 (abondance de biens nuit) in Dec 2006, and .. decided to wait until July (see rgl, PBSmodelling and Rgtk2) ; add gnomeGUI and Rkward ( gnome resp kde oriented), and some more, I fear.....
..
for SPSS doc, my colleagues use www.modulad.fr (pdfs in French...){ although they bought it, they lost paper docs, modulad has more theory ...}
73 • Statistical & other scientific soft (by pp on 2007-01-09 13:16:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
see "Scientific applications for Linux":
http://sal.linet.gr.jp/index.shtml
74 • Old hardware (by IMQ on 2007-01-09 15:39:25 GMT from United States)
The idea of continual upgrade cycles, is exactly what company like Microsoft wants people to be trapped in. It obviously generates billion dollars. One only needs tolook at the Vista requirements to understand.
I think we the people need to have a very good hard look at reality.
Do I need to have the new hardware/software? Why? What is it that I do now need new hardware?
What do I gain from it? How much?
Does the old PC still does what I need it to do efficiently?
Bottom line is that if the old hardware is not good enough for what I need, then getting a new hardware is logical.
I haven't upgraded my hardware for several years now, with the exception of adding new hard drives for more storage, since most of the thing I do on the day-to-day basic are easily handled with the hardware I now have.
The same reason I haven't bought a new car since I paid off mine 6 years ago. It still runs well and, no doubt, worth more than its so-called market value. ;-)
Face it. Most of us buy new PC (or car) because we want to. Because we can afford it. And not because we got to have it :-)
75 • Old hardware/64 bit (by Anonymous on 2007-01-09 16:50:19 GMT from United States)
I just saw the MS coverage on the CES show in Vegas and I don't see much to worry about. Their idea of 64bit is video wallpaper and a service to sell content for it. Who wants to watch videos with icons over them. I can do that with my Haupage tv card.
Just like that I'm not buying all new TV's for HD, I'm not buying all new PCs for 64bits. If I can run it on a AthlonXP I'm willing to try it but if not it will be after 2010.
Older verions of Puppy will work with a P90 and 32mb of memory. You will need 200mb or more of HD (half for swap). Don't go too old or you'll have issues with HD install/Boot loaders and adding applications. BTW updating has become hit or miss lately with the new puppy. It seems that they are between package managers. The old one doesn't work and the new one times out and does not have everything.
76 • RE 67 SPSS and Linux. What about wine? (by dbrion on 2007-01-09 17:05:40 GMT from France)
a) SPSS is a commercial soft, and soft vendors are not that greedy to upgrade to 64 bits (they have other priorities) => it may be very intersting compared to R, which is fully 64 bits (it is a bottleneck when I buy PCs, not KDE, OOo or gnome....) { do not be afraid : when my colleagues compaired results with R and results with SPSS, there was no pb.)
==> for large datasets, SPSS (if 32 bits based) is more interesting than R, the time opening a computer with a screw drivex is perhaps not necessary..
b) From "http://catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html#id287535" :
<
>>
wine can nicely emulate Windows programs. It worked with clever games oriented colleagues for (legally bought) Microsoft Word, and it was a change from OpenOffice, even with an alpha release of wine (whicha has a small mem print).
I suppose a solution would be to run a fully legal SPSS under wine; this would avoid dual boating .
Of couse, I did not buy SPSS and can not test it.....
77 • MS support (by Linux User on 2007-01-09 19:34:51 GMT from United States)
There are good article about Microsoft support in the Linux Journal. It is good reading for Novell/SuSE users too.
78 • 68 (by lmf on 2007-01-09 19:46:34 GMT from United States)
If you find the R interface scary (as is true of most new users) check out rcommander.
You should also check out gretl for simple, and some not-so-simple, statistical analysis/graphing with an excellent gui.
There are Linux versions of many proprietary packages, such as Stata, GAUSS, Matlab, RATS,....
I believe SPSS can be made to work under Linux using Wine. I have actually seen it in action but do not know if all the features work. My experience is that it is really easy to run scientific applications under Wine. The only time I have not been able to simply copy and paste the files from my Windows machine onto my Linux machine and run it without modification is if the program's license manager prevents it from running on a different machine.
That's a long way to say that it should be almost trivial to move your statistical computing to Linux. There's nothing surprising about that given the existing user base.
79 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-01-09 19:49:20 GMT from United States)
> do not be afraid : when my colleagues compaired results with R and results with SPSS, there was no pb
Well, to go a little further, given the people working on R (not necessarily the contributed packages) I would definitely trust R over any commercial package if the results differ. For one thing, you could post a question in the forums and someone could look at the source code and find a problem if there is one. I know from experience that a fast way to get the middle finger from a commercial software company is to ask them if they have a bug.
80 • Need PCLinuxOS help (by linbetwin on 2007-01-09 21:28:00 GMT from Romania)
Hello, PCLOS users!
I have the default "livecd" kernel. Which kernel is best for an AMD ATHLON64 with 1GB of RAM?
Also, are the wiki instructions for installing the NVIDIA drivers outdated?
81 • Xubuntu (by Zuggy on 2007-01-09 22:17:41 GMT from United States)
I installed Ubuntu on a pentium 2 of unkown speed and ram amount (although I beleive it to be about 500 mhz w/ 256 MB RAM or somewhere in that range, haven't care enough to check). Unhappy with the speed, I downloaded the Xubuntu-desktop pakage from apt and i can honestly say, I notice very little speed difference between the 2.
Am I the only one that smells an Xubuntu Fork?
82 • *80 Need PCLinuxOS help by linbetwin (by Tim on 2007-01-09 22:42:47 GMT from United States)
Have you visited the PCLinuxOS forum and asked there?
http://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php
You'll find they are very courteous and helpful. Unfortunately, I cannot answer your question. But someone there undoubtedly will.
Tim
83 • RE: to linbetwin (by nedvis on 2007-01-09 23:08:21 GMT from United States)
You would be better of downloading and installing an earlier PCLinuxOS version ( 09.2) with integrated nVIDIA kernel module driver and kernel-pclos-i586-up-1GB-2.6.12.oci6.mdk-1-1tex
Don't worry , using standard synaptic you can the upgrade your KD 3.4.2 to 3.5.5
and keeep your kernel and nvidia driver as long as you need them.
Here is the download link:
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/metalab/distributions/texstar/pclinuxos/live-cd/english/preview/pclinuxos-p92-nvidia7676.iso
good luck
84 • Re: ## 82, 83 (by linbetwin on 2007-01-09 23:25:23 GMT from Romania)
Thank you very much, nedvis.
Tim, I was registered on the PCLinuxOS forums several months ago, but I just forgot my password. And I also know that those forums are pretty low traffic so I thought I'd be better off asking here. I'd like to thank nedvis again for the quick answer.
85 • Why not debian? (by Dr. David on 2007-01-10 02:58:30 GMT from United States)
I really can't understand why everyone is so "gaga" over the many *buntus, as I'm having lots of fun making Debian do about everything I want to (servers, desktops, network appliances, and more), on old and new machines. And for some extra fun, there's always Puppy and Damn Small.
Have fun!
86 • 85 (by Anonymous on 2007-01-10 04:01:00 GMT from United States)
If you're even a little bit knowledgeable with Linux, I agree, Etch with XFCE is a lot more fun and provides much better performance than xubuntu. Etch is really a great piece of work.
> It makes me smile everytime I read something like this. After all, who would want something that "just works."
Unfortunately, it "just works" the way someone else wants it to work. Debian, for instance, is computing "my way" and it "almost works" and after an hour of tweaking, it "just works my way" for a couple of years. AOL is fine if you like surfing their way, but most users outgrew AOL. Throw in Shuttleworth's attitude about the default installation of proprietary drivers, and the "just works their way" becomes a problem.
87 • RE: #63 Sabayon (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-01-10 07:06:20 GMT from Italy)
"IMO Sabayon has raised the standard. The ONLY "problem" with Sabayon is that behind it's sophisticated, user friendly, and I might add functional GUI, is that it is based on Gentoo. Not that I am knocking Gentoo mind you, but sys admin and upgrading the distro is not as easy as debian or red hat based distro's. The Sabayon solution (at the moment) is to upgrade from successive DVD's."
That is one problem, and I don't know if it is just me (I have never been very conversant with Portage), but Sabayon doesn't seem really Gentoo compatible.
I wish Sabayon were Debian based instead.
But that is not the only problem in my experience: there are always some (minor?) bugs, some missing feature...
Having said that, by no means I want to put down Sabayon and his main developer, who is quite young and very nice.
88 • SPSS (by agrest on 2007-01-10 10:23:16 GMT from Poland)
thank you for your little help :)
I'll have to do some more web search for good stat application that lets me easily transform large stat data files
unluckily I'm stuck with SPSS's *.sav format
as to WINE idea my SPSS setup says I need to update my "windows" to winnt or 2000 (???)
I'll have to try out this rcommander because I use stat soft for social reaserch purposes and I don't really want to learn too many command-line progs ;)
by the way it's quite a disappointing thing to hear I need to learn somehow esoteric command line tools to cope with my everyday tasks
this seems to be the most discouraging thing for new linux users to hear that to get something more advanced functions of programs or to transform some spacific file formats they have 16 tones of problems at the entrence ;)
cheers
89 • RE 79 : in R we trust (by dbrion on 2007-01-10 12:03:49 GMT from France)
for serious and reprodubility reasons. So do lucid SPSS vendors. Perhaps not my colleagues, who however found some commercial value in R (they asked a lucid SPSS vendor to explain them some _reproducible_ command line tools, and, then,there was no esoterical magics, they discussed prices..).
I prefer having R sometimes cross verified, even wildly...
What makes SPSS intellectual value is her GUI : it generates command lines which can then be reproduced with SPSS linux port, see http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/sscc/pubs/7-18.htm for its GUI... a lucid vendor can give a licence for ONE licence for a dual bat PC....
Another solution for SPSS under Linux would be to use qemu (exists in elive and, in its slow version, in elpix) to install a legal copy of Windows, then manage with ones vendor (I cross googled SPSS and wine, but not SPSS and qemu...).
I know R works great under Mandriva 2006 => qemu=> _legal_ MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98....
Of course, it has a high mem print; perhaps a screw driveR will be useful. (pourquoi faire simple quand on peut, par son incopètence, faire très compliqué)
BYTW, why do Linux installers not have traces in SPSS (and other soft) way? Except for WhiteBox liberation, I never saw of them; as some GUI installers are complicated, they should be reproducible, specially when there is a problem or if one has many GNU/linuxes to install...
90 • Tux magazine no more! (by Michael King at 2007-01-10 12:45:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
I haven't seen any news myself about this so I thought i would mention it as it is I feel a great loss to the new linux user, The online Pdf based Tux magazine has closed, its last issue was n0.20 in December, I normally received it by email on the first of each month and only just just found out why I didn't receive it this year!
91 • Tux magazine (by Claus Futtrup on 2007-01-10 16:02:42 GMT from Denmark)
To no. 90.
Yes, Tux magazine wanted (or was "asked" by the publisher to) go a commercial route. They tried to collect enough subscriptions to continue ... but actually that didn't work out either. Sad to hear about this.
Best regards,
Claus
92 • re: spss (by Anonymous on 2007-01-10 16:15:27 GMT from United States)
I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind, but these links are a useful starting point:
http://wiki.math.yorku.ca/index.php/R:_Local_tutorial#SPSS
http://wiki.math.yorku.ca/index.php/R:_Data_conversion_from_SPSS
http://cran.r-project.org/doc/manuals/R-data.html#EpiInfo-Minitab-SAS-S_002dPLUS-SPSS-Stata-Systat
http://www.gnu.org/software/pspp/pspp.html
It appears to be rather easy to import spss datasets into other programs without modification. You can also save in .csv or odbc format, which are pretty much universal. If you want to stick with a GUI, export as .csv and import it into gretl.
Realize that this is not a completely trivial undertaking. It will take a few hours of investment. That would be even more the case if you choose to use a new proprietary package on Windows.
> it's quite a disappointing thing to hear I need to learn somehow esoteric command line tools to cope with my everyday tasks
The GUI for gretl is probably the simplest GUI I've ever used. I think programs like Stata or SAS are sufficiently user-friendly that there may not be much demand for SPSS on Linux.
> as to WINE idea my SPSS setup says I need to update my "windows" to winnt or 2000 (???)
Most likely you need to run winecfg or winefile (don't remember which) and tell it to pretend to be Windows 2000. Don't worry, it's a GUI application.
Sorry to use this as a support forum for specific software. Maybe this will allow someone to dump Windows for Linux.
93 • Sabayon (by tom at 2007-01-10 17:03:05 GMT from United States)
Sabayon apparently tries to solve this problem by releasing new DVD's to update the system.
I just replaced my mother board but was planning to try their method to upgrade to 3.26.
Still, it is not bad that there are only minor problems. Every OS has minor problems. Look at the shear number of packages on their DVD.
Sabayon gives out of the box support for quite a number of creature comforts, window managers, nvidia drivers, and beryl. I had my dual monitors and sound system up and running in 5 minutes, all gui driven, except for a minor edit to xorg.conf.
It is truly amazing.
I am sure this will be the way of the Debian systems in a few months, that is why I am impressed and feel Sabayon has indeed set a new standard.
94 • 93 (by chep on 2007-01-10 18:58:24 GMT from United States)
"Still, it is not bad that there are only minor problems. Every OS has minor problems. Look at the shear number of packages on their DVD."
Sabayon versions 3.25c and 3.26 don't work on my machine (wrong IDE drives detection). However v3.2 works perfectly.
But if you have all SATA drives that would be indeed a *minor* problem... ;-)
Regards!
95 • Iso download a mess (by annoyed on 2007-01-10 19:05:19 GMT from United States)
Hi All, This isn't really a rant ( I don't think anyway )
I suspect that it's just part of the whole large file downloading issue, but after trying to download frugalware-0.6pre2-i686-dvd1.iso Firefox's download manager finally informed me that the file was incomplete and ended the download. It is a problem that it takes so long to find out that a file is not really available. I did search for a BT file but one wasn't available for this iso. I will wait until a BT IS available from now on.
96 • RE: # 95 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-01-10 20:36:55 GMT from Italy)
Do not use a browser to download a large file. Under Linux use curl.
Under Windows use something like Internet Download Manager.
97 • More about #95 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-01-10 20:45:38 GMT from Italy)
Besides some developers seem to hate BT, or more realistically they don't know how to upload a torrent (strange but true).
98 • #97 (by ray carter at 2007-01-10 22:49:38 GMT from United States)
I know I certainly hate BT - I've yet to have a good experience with it. Seems like the torrent downloads always take about five times as long.
99 • 94 (by to on 2007-01-11 00:47:05 GMT from United States)
LOL cep
Yep, all sata on my end
The funny thing is I have been "unable" to run Debian for almost 6 months because of a minor bug in Debian ... My network card does not work. Too bad because I am partial to Debian ...
Funny thing is Ubuntu, and most non-Debian (Arch, Sabayon, Zenwalk) distros run fine (I know Debian -> Ubuntu)
One person's "small bug" is another's show stopper :)
100 • RE: # 93 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-01-11 05:03:33 GMT from Italy)
"Still, it is not bad that there are only minor problems. Every OS has minor problems. Look at the shear number of packages on their DVD."
Well, I was being a bit optimistic. And please notice that I wrote "minor" with a question mark. In reality Sabayon fails to start X here (ATI X1600XT)
101 • RE: # 98 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-01-11 05:17:32 GMT from Italy)
Well, Karl Schock, developer of elpicx (see post # 22) wrote that he has a "little, small, tiny server". Even with the smallest server on earth you can upload a torrent. And a torrent doesn't necessarily need to be slow. I have had mixed results. But in any case always better than downloading 99% of the iso and then being cut off from the server (personal experience, most recent K12LTSP)
102 • RE: 98 by ray carter (by johncoom on 2007-01-11 05:37:05 GMT from Australia)
ray wrote
"I know I certainly hate BT - I've yet to have a good experience with it. Seems like the torrent downloads always take about five times as long."
You have to first state if what you are getting via BT is well seeded or not.
Makes a big difference - also are you always trying to be "the first on the block" to get it.
The only developer who has seemed to have got wise to this so far is the giy at Sabayon who always puts up his torrent on the LinuxTracker as a "Pre-official-release Seed" at least 48hrs (last time 24hrs) - BEFORE he officially realeases it _or_ he submits it to DistroWatch - so by the time many people see that it is officially released (from DW) the torrent is already being well Seeded
[I do have other issues with him as he (1) never comes back after it is officially release and nodifies the desription (2) never ever puts in a decent description and I have done it for him before - I will not bother for 3.26 or ever again - which will mean he will probably never be made a Feature at LT again by the Site Admin as they like to have some sort decent description. - so if the Sabayon torrent poster sees this, get smart and start putting in those meaning full descriptions - it is not hard]
ray
There are other things to be considered with BT like do you upload at a decent rate - if its only a trickle up speed - then do not expect a fast down speed.
Since BT has been around for the last few years, at least those FTP server are not being punished as much by end users with gimme, gimme, gimme, quick, quick, quick, attitudes
103 • RE: # 59 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-01-11 05:51:30 GMT from Italy)
"64-bit Linux is not doing badly at all against 64-bit vista so far - but it's Mac that seems to be leading the race."
I agree regarding Vista (64bit support s#cks) and OS X.
But as to Linux I have recently decided that I am going to use 32bit distros. A lot less fuss. and it is a shame, because if I remember correctly Linux was the first among the 3 to start 64bit support.
104 • ESR and 64 bit Linux (by warpengi on 2007-01-11 08:03:30 GMT from Canada)
OK, I will start by saying it was a VERY interesting article full of good history, interesting analyses, and insights. That's the good stuff
Right from the start I thought if ESR is going to base this analysis of "how Linux can win the desktop"(tm) on the history of the desktop PC, he is full of shit. There are more factors affecting what is on your desktop than dreamt of in your philosophy, Eric. Or at least in this text. The move to 64 bit will happen, yes. But MS has dominated through the last 2. 16bit and 32bit by Eric's own words were not well designed OS's, were not stable and dragged in the migration from 16bit to 32bit. This theory fails in so many areas.
While many of the ideas offered to bring Linux into the mainstream are solid, this sounds like anohter one of ESR's big ideas(tm). Conary is still around but hardly taking the world by storm. What about domain parking? Heard about that lately? Seems this guy has some interesting ideas but a lot of them just don't go anywhere. This seems like another one of those.
Here is another one of his predictions about Microsoft for your reading pleasure.
"Not only can't they crush us, but it will take a reversal of present trends for them to avoid a collapse into irrelevance within eighteen months."
Oct. 13, 1998
Make enough predictions and your bound to hit it sometime, I guess. Could 2008 be it? Maybe but that's certainly longer than I can hold my breath.
105 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-01-11 08:07:52 GMT from France)
Thank you for the CLI clone of SPSS, which seems very serious and stable (from winrar).
# Sorry to use this as a support forum for specific software. Maybe this will allow someone to dump Windows for Linux.
from http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20061218 Slackware has only 544 supported packages. R has about 800 packages, in the Debian sense.... => R is not such a marginal part of GNU, and, as a
teaching tool (it was meant for),
- is highly reproducible (scripts custed and patted can work without pbs; how can one cut and paste a GUI?) which has an obvious interest in commerce and in research (a reviewer may ask for some complements, and the essential results remain stable), and in automation of repetitive tasks, without mouse clicks (one makes mistakes, it reminds me of Les temps modernes, with Chaplin).
- has great (browsable, if one likes IT toys) help for each command => if one takes 2/3 days to read a part of Sacred R Docs, many CLI tools (for stats _and_ informatics) become understandable... It is thus a good starting point for bash/perl scripting..
By the way, R (and even more gretl) is not up and running in most Linux distrs ( I know of FC , Debian and Suze). Even Gcc can be missing (or not be installed) in some IT playing oriented cool distrs...
=> the most comfortable starting point for R seems under Windows, R under Windows has a _removable_ GUI (then an Linux R is easy to get and interesting for fully automation, but windows R works good to learn with; both are somewhat memory intensive...).
I was surprised wine works (it is highly unstable... when I cross googled after posting, I was terrified...).
Nota : buyers and reviewers may be very nervous about legality (and, as GNU/linux grows better and more wide spread, it will get fiercer=> they will ask for results supported by legal proprietary software or by free software they know => a 2/3 days lag may avoid years of ennoying things). I doubt brilliant ideas such as wine or qemu would appeal them....
106 • Re 106 (by dbrion on 2007-01-11 08:14:12 GMT from France)
I posted it (even simple and well designed GUIs may be misleading).
107 • RE #103 (by warpengi on 2007-01-11 08:18:50 GMT from Canada)
I've been running 64bit Mandriva 2007 for a few months now and it works very,very well. The only thing I can't run are games and I have the power pack that shipped with cedega. But then I've never had much success with cedega. the improvement compared to 3 years ago when I bought my 1st Opteron and tried 64bit Linux is amazing.
Depends what you need but I'm having no more trouble than 32bit with anything including multimedia, Google Earth, palmpilot syncing, printing, ATI proprietary drivers and compiz. For me 64bit is here.
108 • Re: #105 - Java GUI for R (by Ariszló on 2007-01-11 11:34:01 GMT from Hungary)
If it frustrates you that sources are easier to get than binaries then you might like JGR: http://rosuda.org/JGR/
109 • elpicx (by Karl Schock on 2007-01-11 11:46:50 GMT from Germany)
Hello,
you can now download elpicx at
www.distromania.com/distro_info.php?distro=833
(Thanks do distromania for that.)
BTW: I have no experience with torrent. So I can't do it.
Bye
Karl
110 • How to quickly download Sabayon? (by Bill Savoie on 2007-01-11 13:40:16 GMT from United States)
I wanted to try out the new 3.26 Sabayon I have a high speed cable, so two days ago I started a Ktorrent download. It looks now that 6 more days will be needed to finish the download. How can I get this faster? Do I need to adj Torrent setup?
111 • Bittorrent (by IMQ on 2007-01-11 14:47:45 GMT from United States)
My experience with bittorrent is that it is always slow. And definitely slower than the normal download via browser or wget, my usual method to download Linux distros.
Whenever I use bittorrent, regardless of which apps (BitTornado, Bittorent-GUI, Ktorrent, etc.), I got around 20-40KB/s speed. The speed via wget depends on the server. I can get up to 200-300KB/s. I never got that with bittorrent. And I practically uploaded much more than I download. Every time.
Side note: I like SabayonLinux and some of the Gentoo-based LiveCD. However, I won't ever use it as my main distros simply because it takes longer than my patience can endure to install or upgrade. I cannot imagine how long it would take to upgrade all packages. Just not practical for *me* at all.
112 • bittorrent and cybercafes (by dbrion on 2007-01-11 14:58:30 GMT from France)
Cybercafés prohibit bittorrents for many reasons.
If one wants to keep dual boat PCs without viruses, the best solution is to
remove any IT connections,
go to cybercafés and use local antiviruses, then GNU/linux antiviruses.
use as much source install as possible (and it may give some insight of ones favorite programs, if needed)...{RE 108 : I forgot this R GUI, which seems interesting (eclipse like)... under Windows..! (from their download recommendations, of course}
113 • RE: 110 + 111 • Bittorrent + all other BT comments (by johncoom on 2007-01-11 15:52:51 GMT from Australia)
Well either you have chosen some thing that is not very popular - or - most of the peers are on slower connections - or - you have not got your firewall &/or router setup to port forward - Also you do know don't you its best to throttle both your down + up speeds so as not to try and use the max possible.
Look I have a dsl 1500/256 connection - that is around 160kB/s down + 30kB/s up - throttle both my uploasd + download to 140kB/s down and 25kB/s up
So as you can see I have throttled down my max a bit (it is still quite fast for me) ANYHOW before Christmass I got the Supergamer2 DVD (3.8GB) it took me about 11.5 hrs to complete the download side. I guess I averaged around 100kB/s - you can work it out exactly if you want.
BTW - with my ISP I do have unlimited free uploads and only a set download limit.
So its not always the BT protocol that is at fault - some times it is your system setup - or - even your Service Provider (because they dont like you uploading) that is making it slow.
114 • 104 (by Anonymous on 2007-01-11 16:02:29 GMT from United States)
Yeah, seems strange that Mr. RTFM would now be lecturing people about how to put together a Linux desktop that just works for anyone.
His story is one possibility, but just one of many. I thought the reasoning was strained or nonexistent in some places. It reads well as a story but not as a plan. But don't tell his fanboys that, to them, he is the messiah. He's got it all figured out, the only problem is to get all other Linux users onboard and firing up the proprietary codecs.
115 • Re: 111 - IMQ (by johncoom on 2007-01-11 16:32:17 GMT from Australia)
First please get your units right ? I believe
"K" = kelvin as in temperature
and
"k" = kilo as in 1000 B (bytes)
Also "And I practically uploaded much more than I download. Every time"
Well you are supposed to at least u/l 1.x of what you d/l - perhaps you are u/l at too fast a speed while you are downloading - this is a common error - I always start at about 10kB/s and increase it gradually up to 25kB/s towards the end of the download - BUT it does vary with each torrent - there is no fixed rule - you can see my figures above, adjust yours to suit your speeds.
Plus BTW I always use AZUREUS and nothing eles it allows you to vary your speed at any time - forget Ktorrent and I do not like or use the other BT clients
116 • 114 (by warpengi on 2007-01-11 18:12:54 GMT from Canada)
"the only problem is to get all other Linux users onboard and firing up the proprietary codecs"
and therein lies the rub. Even were he able to licence all the proprietary codecs the resistance in the community to that will be significant. Certainly RMS, FSF. SFLC will all oppose this. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it might be but I'm not saying that here. Just that the resistance will be tremendous. Nice to see Kevin Carmony and ESR working together. That seems like a good fit since they both see themselves as pragmatists even though they are zealots at heart.
117 • Re 115: units right (by Anonymous on 2007-01-11 19:33:55 GMT from United States)
You should read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobyte
regarding "get your units right".
118 • 117 • Re 115 (by IMQ on 2007-01-11 20:48:59 GMT from United States)
Are you going to correct people who says Unix instead of UNIX? linux instead Linux? Which is correct?
What about people misspelling words in their post because the main language is not English?
I am not trying to be technically correct here when conveying my message on places like here. In the context of of the message, it is generally -- IMHO -- understood to mean kilo byte per second when *talking* about download speed over broadband like cable or DSL. If I were writing a technical paper and in need of help to proofread the paper, then your correction would be greatly appreciated.
Bottomel line here is that the message is well understood.
119 • 118 - by IMQ (by johncoom on 2007-01-12 11:29:56 GMT from Australia)
OK forgive me being pedantic - I have been got at myself for writing it incorrectly in the past - the second link in 117 above explains it well
I take your point "Bottom line here is that the message is well understood"
PS. my spelling is not much good and I am originally from UK :-(
120 • follow-up on #95 Iso dl is a mess (by john on 2007-01-12 16:27:26 GMT from United States)
I'm using a mac powerbook for downloading and I tried Platypus dl manager on that file also but it fails with error message too. Perhaps there should be a way to verify that the file is that and complete for downloading before putting the link up here?
121 • RE: # 120 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-01-12 17:55:01 GMT from Italy)
Maybe you are right after all, the file is corrupted.
However, Platypus? Never used it. You could use either DAP for Mac or iGetter.
You can also use curl, provided you have X11 installed.
122 • More about # 120 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2007-01-12 18:09:57 GMT from Italy)
BTW, I just found this, but obviously I have never tried it:
http://www.yazsoft.com/
(Speed Download 4)
123 • elpicx (by Karl Schock on 2007-01-13 10:40:19 GMT from Germany)
Hello,
there is now a .torrent-file at
http://www.elearnit.de/live_cds/elpicx/download/elpicx_en_cd.torrent
(thanks to Cornel Panceac for that).
Bye
Karl
Number of Comments: 123
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JAMD Linux was a distribution based on Red Hat Linux aimed for the end user. It has the following features: recompiled for i686 and above processors; single CD, yet full featured; includes OpenOffice, Mozilla web browser, Evolution PIM, GnuCash personal finance, The Gimp graphics editor, games, educational software, and more; 4 step install (mouse, timezone, administrator password, user account creation); 13 minutes from install to desktop; end user friendly customizations.
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