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1 • A plug for SAM LiveCD (by steveos on 2006-10-02 12:24:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
DL'd and tried SAM last week, very nice & glx effects amusing.
A major point is that - everything worked; always a sign of people who put in a lot of care and attention to detail.
Another point - changing screen res (an oldie but nasty) was dead easy, soon had my TFT running at 1400 x 1050.
SAM is worth a DL, used it for several hours happily. Oh, the Synaptic installer works fine over unionfs - tried several apps and they worked, no issues.
2 • Bye bye Mandrake (by WhoCares on 2006-10-02 12:28:09 GMT from Finland)
and mandriva. I feel a little bit sorry for them. It was still te best desktop in a time!
3 • MS Duck (by Lobster on 2006-10-02 12:34:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
I always thought Red Hat would sell out to Redmond. Maybe it will be Mandrake. After their disgraceful behaviour with Gael I am boycotting this cash cow. PCLinuxOS seem to have a better distro and attitude and the same Red Hat sauce . . . eh . . . source . . .
Congratulations to Inscape for updating Sodipodi and hopefully integrating Xara Xtreme code. Well deserved award.
Be kind to the good penguins.
4 • Mandriva's future? I can't see. (by Shiyu Tang on 2006-10-02 12:34:39 GMT from China)
It would be sad when the developers of a Linux distribution which is considered to be the number 1 for desktop use say that Linux is not suitable for desktop. I can't see Mandriva's future when Mandriva has been a money-maker for greed investors even if it has lost blood, the support from FOSS community. As a Mandriva club member, I has got Mandriva Linux 2007 PowerPack but only to see its drawbacks, such as Firefox too slow, Ati cards no support, etc. I have to say that it's time to change my Linux distribution. Which is fine? Ubuntu, SuSE or Freespire?
5 • Shuttleworth Interview (by Gasper on 2006-10-02 12:41:52 GMT from Slovenia)
"In a free software world, why would you need to download a piece of software somewhere else??"
My my, you can't even put Cinerella - best of video apps inside your repository....
6 • RE: Mandriva's Future? (Shiyu Tang) (by Simfox on 2006-10-02 12:58:34 GMT from United States)
HI Shiyu,
I have also been an long-time Mandriva user, holding onto hope from one release to the next that things would get better, only to be disappointed again and again.
I am now using PCLinuxOS, and would strongly suggest that you try the same. You will feel right at home as it was originally forked from Mandrake 9.2. Tex and his world-wide team of developers have done a fantastic job making the rough spots smooth and the crooked places straight. Really, everything just works!! Consider PCLinuxOS as "Mandriva Done Right" As a fellow Mandriva Refugee, you'll be welcome -- visit the forum for interactive advice and the wiki for documnentation and howtos.
--Simfox
7 • Fedora disappoints (by Chris on 2006-10-02 13:03:32 GMT from Canada)
I installed FC6 Pre-release (Test4) yesterday and my keyboard would not work. I tried another keyboard and still no luck. Fedora continues to disappoint IMO.
8 • Mandriva (by Ed on 2006-10-02 13:19:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
While I do not believe them and am surprised at what they've said, the views of 2 employees do not necessarily reflect the views of Mandriva. I think people are jumping to conclusions too quickly by saying Mandriva is anti-Linux. Don't be so ridiculous. I think there will be some embarrassment at Mandriva over this and some action will be taken.
9 • Linux on Desktop (by Formerly Frustrated on 2006-10-02 13:20:50 GMT from United States)
I would not put too much emphasis on a blog entry where someone is venting his frustration. I remember spending endless hours trying to get stuff to work, both in Windows and Linux.
The second entry (by Dark_Schneider) is a little more level-headed, and he's right. A top-down dictated monoculture makes for a much simpler environment than rich diversity where creativity abounds.
10 • About Mandriva ... (by Pierre Tramo on 2006-10-02 13:23:11 GMT from France)
I can be wrong, but from what I know, Fabrice Facorat is not a mandriva employee, and Vincent Danen is working on the security updates and is not exactly a mandriva developer. What he said is only his own opinion, and it is not the opinion of the company. Also you should read the many comments on this blog entry and you'll understand better what he meant.
In my own opinion, Mandriva 2007 is a very good OS for the Desktop, and is working very well on most hardware. That would be stupid to stop using Mandriva because of this post ...
11 • Mandriva can go down under for all I care. (by UZ64 on 2006-10-02 13:33:06 GMT from United States)
Mandrake, I believe it was in the 9s at the time, was one of the first distros I tried - and certainly not one of the most memorable. I recall getting "overheating" messages in Mandrake within only minutes, 100% CPU use, and sure enough, it was quite hot - even hotter than doing a CPU-intensive operation such as encoding audio files for hours at a time in Windows or any other Linux distro I tried up until that time. Its subscription plan was a joke, and its bugging me to buy a subscription was the next thing up from Windows adware/spyware.
Needless to say, Mandrake didn't last too long. I did attempt to try it again around 10.0 to see if they got their act together, but every problem I had when I first tried it came right back. The funny thing is, PCLinuxOS works almost flawlessly, although because of the bad experiences Mandrake left in my mouth I tend to stay far away from distros based on it.
12 • Mandriva is GOOD !!! (by serge on 2006-10-02 13:38:05 GMT from Canada)
Cannot understand how little loyalty exists in this world. Why abandon Mandriva, a fine, probably the best Linux Distro (IMHO) especially considering their Control Center. Try setting up remote CUPS printer on anything else but SUSE or Mandriva, and I think you would appreciate these two distros.
Also, I'm amazed about successes of pure "knock-offs" (read: blatant copies), of the famous originals. Ubuntu: a copy of Debian and PCLinuxOS: a copy of Mandriva, just to name the two.
13 • Fate of an unfortunate distribution Symphony OS (by Aventis on 2006-10-02 13:41:54 GMT from Pakistan)
I just checked the website of my favourite but unfortunate distribution Symphony OS which died because of economical disasterous conditions of it`s developer and to my surprize what I see on that website is horrible
http://www.symphonyos.com/
See for yourself and you will find what somebody has done to the website of this unlucky distro.
Aventis
14 • Re: Fedora disappoints (by Jeff on 2006-10-02 14:06:05 GMT from India)
The test 4 announcement clearly mentions known issues including keyboard related one. Since test releases are obviously meant to find and file bug reports, where is yours?
15 • PCLinuxOS...not support languages like Chinese and Japanese (by Shiyu Tang on 2006-10-02 14:06:12 GMT from China)
As an asian user, it is important that a Linux distribution should be support Chinese, Japanese and Corean(aka Korean) languages out of box, so PCLinuxOS is beyond my choice.
And also, I can't find a free version can be downloaded from PCLinuxOS's website.
16 • RE: # 13 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-10-02 14:09:10 GMT from Italy)
Yes, very sad indeed.
17 • i was right last week (by fukodlak on 2006-10-02 14:17:46 GMT from Croatia)
these debian guys (gays) are acting like a bunch of pussies, arguing about nothing.
and that mandriva developers are right. ati drivers are not to blame, they work perfectly. it's just that linux developers doesn't understand that an average computer user doesn't have time nor will to bother with compiling kernel and stuff like that.
and pclinuxos is NOT a mandriva copy, it's a far better linux.
18 • Fresh review of UHU-Linux 2.0 (by Béranger on 2006-10-02 14:20:30 GMT from Romania)
http://beranger.org/index.php?article=1673
19 • mandriva (by pawel on 2006-10-02 14:23:16 GMT from Poland)
yes, i think is high time to say goodbay to mandriva... i am very sad and disapointed, because i use mandriva from many years as a desktop linux.
20 • Ignorance is Bliss (by devnet on 2006-10-02 14:32:41 GMT from United States)
@ Serge
PCLinuxOS is not a copy of Mandriva. It's a fork of Mandrake 9.2. It actually contains elements of Suse, Yoper, Fedora, and many other rpm based distros.
Don't speak with authority on something unless you actually KNOW about it...otherwise, you come off sounding ignorant and looking like a boldfaced liar.
21 • Download Link (by devnet on 2006-10-02 14:39:11 GMT from United States)
@ #15
Try the downloads page (http://pclinuxos.com/page.php?7) for a free copy...specifically, this URL:
http://ftp.belnet.be/linux/pclinuxos/live-cd/english/preview/
as far as supporting Asian languages...all it takes is a motivated user to help out in this arena...otherwise it will continue to be English only. You ready to give back to the Linux community? Help translate.
22 • Mandriva on the desktop (by Richard Wallace on 2006-10-02 14:42:05 GMT from United States)
I have spent a good bit of time with the top ten distros as well windows and I find it interesting anyone would make the comment that Linux is not ready for the desktop.
I use PCLinuxOS as my main OS and it is a most stable SuperOS. Ubuntu and her kids are great and Fedora is a sharp hat to wear. Mandriva must have internal problems including tunnel visioned employees,and management. This is a shame they had a good thing going at one point.
23 • Mandriva's PR (by psic on 2006-10-02 14:47:32 GMT from Slovenia)
Just recently I tried out both Mandriva and Ubuntu on a couple of laptops. Where those two developers say 'linux not ready', they really mean 'mandriva not ready'. With Mandriva, suspend and hibernation didn't work, the wifi drivers were not available (only to club members), same goes for the modem. Compare that to Ubuntu, where all of this worked out of the box.
Not to mention the state of Mandriva's non-existent documentation (where IMHO Gentoo still prevails in the linux world).
It seems as if the once-popular distribution is up the creek without a paddle.
24 • RE: # 12 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-10-02 15:12:44 GMT from Italy)
You seem to forget that Mandriva is also a "copy" of something else: Red Hat!
25 • Slackware and Mandrita (by Petter on 2006-10-02 15:29:27 GMT from Norway)
Hi all. I think Mandriva is getting more unimportant every day... Why isn't GNU/Linux ready for the Desktop? I have been using it for years.. And i know alot of people who have been using it for years.. maybe its not going to get "mainstream" for some (small amount) time, BUT, its ready, oh yeah ;)
On to Slackware, one thing first, I know "reiserfs" is "selected" from the installer, but i don't think Slackware has a default file system, I have been using ext3 for years, and I don't see any reason to change to reiserfs just because the Slackware installer highlights it from the "format partition" installation screen.. And with the trouble with reiserfs4, i think more and more people will be testing ext3.
btw, does anybody have more info on the new and improved ext3/ext4 code?
-petter-
26 • re #20 and re #24 (by serge on 2006-10-02 15:31:38 GMT from Canada)
Re: 20 Hi devnet: Sorry to read that you used such strong language to dissagree with my post. Any way, I will make an effort to try the latest PCLOS "BigDaddy" and compare it with my Mandriva installation, and see if I jumped the gun a bit with my post.
Re: 24 Hi Anonymous: YES you are absolutely correct. But, Mandriva (well Mandrake at that time) added their Mandrake Control Center (at least I think it was theirs - and please correct me if I'm wrong) which is one of the Mandriva's strongest points. (same for YaST in SUSE).
Regards,
serge.
27 • Frugalware is missing again (by Frugalware Lover on 2006-10-02 15:40:06 GMT from Hungary)
Ladislav Bodnar, thanks for maintaining this site.
This site is one of those I visit EVERY day.
The only thing I'm missing from this and previous DW Weekly is Frugalware's Roadmap.
Their site, shortly after they have released Frugalware 0.5, have been updated: http://frugalware.org/roadmap
So please in next DW Weekly put their upcoming release cycle plan to "Summary of expected upcoming releases".
Tkanks and keep up the good work.
Tom
28 • RE: # 25 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-10-02 15:42:48 GMT from Italy)
"And with the trouble with reiserfs4, i think more and more people will be testing ext3. "
I believe linux badly needs a new filesystem. Once reiser4 is in the kernel, it *could* be debbugged very fast.
It is a pity, IMHO, that nobody is considering HFS Plus as a filesystem for linux :)
29 • RE #12 (by moonpappy on 2006-10-02 15:45:20 GMT from United States)
If loyalty were all that mattered, just about everyone here would still be using window$. Give me PCLOS or Mepis anyday. These guys have their sh_t together
30 • Allelujah (by Zu on 2006-10-02 15:49:36 GMT from Poland)
I do agree 100% with Mandriva's developers. Linux in current shape looks poorly comparing to Windows in terms of daily usage. I mean the PC should perform tasks I expect it to do and nothing more or less. Forcing me to compile, recompile and all this crap is as I 'd have a car, I have all the time to assemble/dissasemble in order to drive a mile. Is it that difficult to understand for you console geeks? Current year is 2006, not 1806.
Nobody noticed new Ubuntu CE build. Huge improvement again (filter blocking), Allelujah!
31 • Distrowatch's anti-journalism (by AdamW on 2006-10-02 15:53:45 GMT from Canada)
"Mandriva's anti-PR"? More like "Distrowatch's anti-journalism". I mean it would have taken you all of about, oh, five seconds of research to work out that Fabrice Facorat is not on Mandriva's staff. He's a volunteer contributor packager. I'm sorry that we don't have our Community Mind Control Ray ready yet to make sure none of our volunteers ever step away from the company line; well, we do have it ready, but Steve Jobs said he wanted to borrow it back in 1998 and he hasn't given it back yet...
Vincent's a great security guy, and he likes OS X. We don't have a mind control ray for staff yet either. What he writes in his personal blog is his opinion. Obviously, it's not the opinion of the company as a whole.
32 • Slackware (by Werner, Cayenne on 2006-10-02 15:55:00 GMT from France)
I use Slackware, for my combined home-computer and server.
I prefere that everything is good tested.
On the other side, everybody can download the 'current' version of the distro, and probably all Slackware users which are hurry to get the newest versions do it ... So, its no matter at what time this is declared formally to be a new version number ...
Under testing, Slackware 'current' normally within 20 hrs have a binary version of new Kernel's -- i dont know any other distro so fast in this. And from the last KDE, I dont know how, there was already a binary version before it was released on the KDE's own home page ...
For I continue to use Slackware:
/ It has to continue to be superfast -- not so slow and 'heavy' everything like under Mandrake
/ From all areas has to be included at least one (or some) best program(s)
/ The packets have to be complete, so that one dont need to search thousands of other progs or perl-modules ...
/ Errors have to be received/corrected in an easy and effective manner - not in such stupid manners / automatical mail-treatment-and-throw-away-programs like f.ex. on opensuse
33 • Linux Desktop Rants (by Synergy6 on 2006-10-02 16:00:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
Dark_Schneider is certainly the better writer of the two, but I agree with both of them. In terms of the basics, such as hardware detection, device drivers, automatic integration of new hardware etc; Linux can only be described as beta, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
F.ex. the first guy brought up how bad the ATI drivers are. He then got verbally abused for how stupid he was in not figuring it out. One person even ridiculed him for buying an ATI card in the first place. WTH? Why should you have to make your hardware choices, on components that may cost $400+, just on what the OS can be bothered to support? Of course, it's not supported mainly because of ATI, but that's not really what matters. If you want desktops to love linux, you have to get cards from the world's 3rd biggest supplier working flawlessly. If that takes chaining yourself to ATI's front door till they start developing decent drivers, then so be it.
@21: "You ready to give back to the Linux community? Help translate."
If you actually wanted to do something useful, start begging major hardware manufacturers for decent support.
34 • No subject (by Werner, Cayenne at 2006-10-02 16:09:09 GMT from France)
ReiserFS: I dont use it longer, because, when it have problems, reparations (or even recovery of deleted files) almost never are possible and often spoils the whole file system and installation. ext3 is slightly better with this.
Just the area of recover progs WHICH REALLY WORKS is very weak in Linux
35 • alternative worlds (by AdamW on 2006-10-02 16:14:28 GMT from Canada)
Oh, and BTW, I'm tempted to imagine what would have happened if we'd fired Vincent for writing that blog post. I'm sure the next Distrowatch Weekly would have included an article entitled "Linux Distributor Brings In Thought Police"...
36 • RE: Lilo and Mandriva (by kilgoretrout on 2006-10-02 16:15:11 GMT from United States)
IIRC Mandriva still uses lilo as the default bootloader, so it's not just a slackware thing. Please check your facts.
37 • Shame on DistroWatch (by Judland on 2006-10-02 16:15:31 GMT from Canada)
The DistroWatch Weekly editor may not like Mandriva, but that's not excuse for poor journalism. More like the FUD you'd get by visiting Microshaft's "Get the Facts" webpage.
Shame on you.
38 • RE: #12 (by raskolnikov on 2006-10-02 16:38:01 GMT from Mexico)
CUPS and network printers work fine here on Slackware and it doesn't need anything from Mandriva nor SuSE. Maybe you need to get out of your tiny locked-away world
39 • Mandriva on the desktop (by Vincent Danen on 2006-10-02 16:38:31 GMT from Canada)
I suppose I need to make some clarification here (although I find all of these Mandriva comments highly amusing).
I never said *Mandriva* wasn't ready for the desktop. I said *Linux* wasn't... so those of you who are saying "well, goodbye to Mandriva now" and are looking at Ubuntu and SUSE based on my blog post are just plain sad. Ubuntu and SUSE are no better than Mandriva in regards to *my personal opinion* of Linux on the desktop. In fact, I tried SUSE on the same machine and it had the same issues (I needed to see if it was in fact a Mandriva issue).
As well, I also indicated in my blog posting that the problem was with the "fancy stuff" (that comes ready and out-of-the box on OS X or, I suppose, with the forthcoming-at-some-point Vista), as I indicated:
"If you just need a functional, no eye-candy, all business desktop... look no further than any Linux distro with an X server. If you want something fun and fancy prepare to either obtain that with wall paper and skins/themes or a few hours of cussing out your machine. Frankly, I don't have the time to waste on something on that should just plain work."
So my issue is that while other operating systems just have their stuff "work", to get the same thing (cubed desktops, fancy 3d stuff), it's a big struggle on Linux. This goes for *all* Linux distros, not just Mandriva.
I remember having to fight with OS/2 to make it boot and work with certain hardware. It was a lot more difficult than Linux today, but it still feels very 1998. It really should be a lot easier than it currently is to get stuff like this to work.
Some people seem to get the mistaken view that this is somehow a "company viewpoint". This is not. This is my personal opinion. I use Mandriva daily, I love it, but sometimes I wish that it (and by it, I mean Linux in general) was easier... if it was, then we could achieve the critical mass required to unseat some other operating systems. But until we have a simple "plug-n-play" OS rather than a "plug-n-compile-n-pray-n-swear" OS, Linux will never achieve the critical mass required to make Aunt Jane and Grandpa Joe decide it's a worthwhile achievement. The whole argument about Linux gaming (or the lack thereof not swaying Windows gamers) still stands and, while it's gotten better with Cedega, where are the commercial Linux games? There are less now than there were four years ago (remember Loki?).
If you put all these things together, you'll come to realize that Linux is fine for geeks and tinkerers, but those of us who actually want to get stuff *done* with their machines rather than putz around with them, still get too easily frustrated at what is sometimes a time-sink.
At any rate, this is all personal opinion and can't possibly reflect any company policy or opinion (to even think that is silly). The only reason Mandriva even got mentioned in that post is because it's the distro I use (if I used SUSE or Ubuntu, they would have been mentioned rather than Mandriva). The fact that I even continue to work for and invest spare time into a Linux distro like Mandriva should be proof enough that I don't believe all hope is lost. =)
40 • Not ready for Desktop?! (by Scott Wilson on 2006-10-02 16:39:12 GMT from United States)
really? I use Ubuntu LTS 6.06, on my brand new Dell Inspiron notebook.
everything works, (I have not tried the modem), with no tweeking of configuration files. Of coarse I planned the build of this notebook, opting for the Nvidia card instead of the INTEL or ATI video card, the intel wirelss card instead of the Dell wireless card. I only boot into windows to play an online game. Other then that every thing else is Ubuntu, with no problems. CentOS works as well except for the wireless but i assume if I was to spend time tweeking it i can get it working. Mandrivia has always been buggy, to buggy for me. I havent tried OpenSUSE or Fedora, but I assume they should work.
Gee even my wife use my notebook with out any problems.
41 • Re:17 • i was right last week (by fukodlak from Croatia) (by ArchUser on 2006-10-02 16:40:19 GMT from United States)
Guy (gay) from Croatiia your "treassuare" of eglish words are on the very high level. All world read you posts and you don't need to use language which you talk with friends on the Croation streets.
42 • PCLinuxOS (by BrianP. on 2006-10-02 16:53:11 GMT from United States)
I have been using Ubuntu for the past several months and decided to give PCLinuxOS a try as I once was a big mandrake fan. I was extremely impressed with the quality of the distro. My sound card was configured out of the box, something ubuntu wasn't able to do. Frame buffer dev was present along with gcc and mplayer. The selection of installed apps was plentiful and using synaptic was cake......it took only 3 minutes to install gtk-gnutella and gnucash....
I was impressed that it just worked with my soundcard (cmipci driver), I had to spend a couple of hours to get ubuntu to work with it......
I also didn't like the fact that I couldn't build mplayer out of the box with ubuntu.....I didn't feel like trying to figure out which gcc package i was missing and install it......
Call me lazy, but I generally expect sound, network, x windows, compiler, and package manager to just work......and PCLinuxOS just worked for everything that I wanted.....
I would highly recommend this distro!!!
--Brian
43 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-10-02 16:56:31 GMT from Iran, Islamic Republic of)
As long as you stay away from the (IMO) ugly live cd install, you can't get a much better and easier desktop than ubuntu. Sure suse is easy to use but even when you add all those extra repositories there's no way it can compete with enabling ubuntu's repositories. Can someone tell me how Linux is not ready for the desktop? You get the best browser, best mail client, enough native games if you bother to look and loads more under emulation that work fine, brilliant office suit, messenger, firewall, in a secure and stable environment with not Windhose Geniune Advantage breathing down your back all for free? Einstein was so right about stupidity being infinite.
44 • Sigh... (by 1c3d0g on 2006-10-02 17:31:50 GMT from Aruba)
@ #37: then don't read this site and post your inaccurate and useless opinion. Get lost.
@ #28: well, I beleive there are many choices for filesystems, like XFS for servers, ext3 (and soon ext4) for general desktop use, the excellent, bullet-proof ZFS etc. Any of these will be great for their intended audience. :-)
45 • Mandriva (by lezard on 2006-10-02 17:51:45 GMT from France)
What is the point of critisizing developers that have their own ideas ? As far as I know, it is perfectly legitimate to write the thing you believe in on your personal blog. Of course, it doesn't reflect the opinion of the others nor the one of Mandriva team !
Then, you are actually quite badly quoting what they wrote. I urge readers to go and make their own opinion about that.
That's the first time I read such a nonsense in DWN :(
46 • ready for the desktop? (by ray carter at 2006-10-02 17:58:18 GMT from United States)
Here is my opinion of the "is Linux ready for the desktop" question. I think that it is certainly ready, and those who claim otherwise largely confuse 'setting up the computer' with 'using the desktop'. In January 2005, I installed Mandrake Linux on the internet computers at a local library. This spring we added a four seat Userful station running RHEL. To date there have been zero complaints and universal acceptance by the library patrons - the computers are very busy from opening to closing - it's usually hard to find a seat. A fair amount of planning went into the installations, and the computers do what the users need - browse the web, office suite, that sort of thing. When it comes to John Q. Public (aka Joe Sixpack), yes, it is an intimidating task to install Linux and get everything set up and working properly. There are ocassional hardware difficulties because manufacturers don't (generally - Epson being an exception) support Linux. BUT on the other hand, I suspect that John (Joe) would have similar problems if his computer did not come with MS preinstalled and configured - IMHO Linux is actually easier to install if you have some computer savvy. But once things are set up and going, it's no more difficult to use Linux than MS - only a little different, and most users adapt easily and quickly with no instruction.
47 • Mandriva 2007 release missing (by Varrin on 2006-10-02 18:21:46 GMT from United States)
I notice in upcoming releases that the Mandriva 2007 relase isn't on the list at all. The newsletter has bad things to say about Mandriva, many people here slam Mandriva, and then there's no indication that there's actually a brand new release right around the corner? How irresponsible is *that*?
Fact: I've used Linux on the desktop for about 4 years now, almost exclusively (that means well over 99% of the time). It *does* work. I haven't evaluated other distros since about 2003 but Mandrake worked then and it still works now. 2006 wasn't the greatest, but so far the early reports about 2007 are very positive.
Here's a novel concept: check out 2007 when it comes out. If there's something substantially better, fine. But don't ignore the fact that there's a new release right around the corner and trash Mandriva for having a *relatively* bad release that's now a year old. Last time I booted in to Windows I was *far* more irritated than I ever am with Linux.
Just one user's opion... moving right along...
P.S. I have no financial or 'emotional' tie to Mandriva. Just surprised to see how this community eats its young...
48 • stuff (by steveos on 2006-10-02 18:29:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
The ATI debate
Well, back in 2000 I thought I would be doing some video work so bought a (rather expensive) ATI Radeon ViVo, with 64M ram. What a sucker I was.
Got round to doing some video work late 2001 and the Video In – would not work, plus the Radeon line had moved on. The hardware apparently was going, but the drivers – the drivers (under Windoze!) were no longer supported! Argh! 3 days loading, unloading and frigging with Windows did not help, I emailed ATI. Guess what? Development work was on drivers for new cards, not mine :(
So what did I learn? Their drivers for new products was poor on day 1. And they would not even go back and fix brokeneses in obsolete (!!!!) cards to the point they did what was claimed on the side of the box.
Now I'd heard that ATI was poor in this area; I'm sure incremental progress means that new ViVo cards work .... but do you think I would buy one – or recommend one? What is to stop a new card coming out the week after a buy - and support for last weeks card vanishing??
NOTE: The architecture of nVidia's code means that there is one driver set for whole families of cards; it's very difficult to get left behind.
Reiser3 and ext3
Used default installs on many Linux's – and the only ones I have had issues and lost data were those on RFS. Seems to be OK on day 1, but on day 30 with 3 other installs in the meantime using the partition – RFS was throwing errors. Had no vital losses, but – ext3 just does not give compatibility issues. I expect this is unfair, and that slightly different RFS versions got used... but there we go. Had ext3 used on a drive which after 2 years began showing slow performance and many clicks (=drive dying). After major multiple fsck fixes i.e. 3 hours on a 10gig drive – got to the point with ext3 happy & no apparent looses, so backed the lot up retired the drive & thought myself lucky. So recovery tools are decent with ext3.
Back to SAM
...a derivative of PCLOS. This is typed in OOo Writer 2.03 on SAM on a laptop, first time SAM used on this kit, works 1st time. Listening to JetCityLounge stream from http://groovera.com/ and everything is working fine. 98% idle on a 1.4 gig Celeron M cpu
Desktop...
So is Linux ready for the desktop? This one, yep.
49 • mandriva (by t u on 2006-10-02 18:39:25 GMT from United States)
Just send them feedback. They'll hear you, and hopefully fire those two arrogant so-called devels.
50 • t u (by AdamW on 2006-10-02 19:11:49 GMT from Canada)
"Just send them feedback. They'll hear you, and hopefully fire those two arrogant so-called devels."
Yes, you've convinced me. That's a great idea. I'll go get the personnel department to fire Fabrice right now.
Oh, whoops. They just reminded me, once again, that as I wrote in THIS DAMN COMMENT thread, he doesn't work for us.
You could try reading the comments, it'll make you better informed. Sadly your chosen news source (DW) is run by people who can't spend five seconds finding out whether someone actually _works_ for Mandriva or not.
51 • Moving target (by JeffS on 2006-10-02 19:32:15 GMT from United States)
I think that the guys doing this work for Mandriva, and blogging about Linux not being ready for the desktop, are just frustrated with the 2.6 kernel being a moving target, and the difficulties that presents to someone who is trying to make everything "just work".
The kernel devs are quite adamant about their current fast moving development methods, and the rapid improvements it brings to the kernel. But when it comes to keeping drivers working, or providing a stable API, they don't seem to care. It's something they're willing to sacrifice in the interest of rapid kernel improvement.
And when developers of destkop oriented distros, where they are expected to make as much hardware as possible "just work", run into the ever changing kernel API (the moving target), they understandably get very frustrated.
I think that perhaps the unstable API could be a hinderence for Linux desktop adoption.
And they might have
52 • Schuttleworth (by Johannes Eva on 2006-10-02 19:45:16 GMT from Spain)
"In a free software world, why would you need to download a piece of software somewhere else??"
Quite stupid phrase for a guy who says he likes freedom...
(XNview isn't in the repository...)
53 • Agree Completely - Linux is not ready for prime time. (by SimoneDice on 2006-10-02 19:50:16 GMT from United States)
I love Linux and would love to use it over any other operating system. In fact, at the current moment, I do. However, I will soon be moving to Mac OS X. I do not, and will never, use Windows.
For me, the major frustration comes with the fact that I have to resinstall or update my operating system every 6 months to get the latest software, otherwise I run into the 'dependency hell' and can't use the latest software. For example, I wanted Amarok 1.4 so that I could use it to synch with my ipod much easier. However, when using Ubuntu Breezy, I couldn't update because of dependecy problems. I had to end up waiting until Dapper came out at which point I could upgrade. This sort of thing is very frustrating. I personally think that instead of upgrading the entire operating system every 6 months, a new operating system should only be upgraded every year at maximum, but for like every year and half. However, issue service packs that only require a download and install rather than a complete upgrade and or refomat. Also, let's get software that can install like it does in Windows or Mac OS X. Let's get it to the point where I just need to go to a projects site, download the files, click install and be done. Only then will Linux be able to take market share. If it can do that, then it will be a great opperating system. Until then, it won't be.
54 • RE: 47 Mandriva 2007 release missing (by ladislav on 2006-10-02 20:11:25 GMT from Taiwan)
I notice in upcoming releases that the Mandriva 2007 relase isn't on the list at all.
It's not on the list simply because I don't know when 2007 will be released and Mandriva is not telling. Slackware 11.0 is not on the list for the same reason. The list only carries those distributions which provide a publicly accessible roadmap, release schedule or other form of information about their upcoming releases.
55 • release date (by AdamW on 2006-10-02 20:14:15 GMT from Canada)
http://qa.mandriva.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/MandrivaLinux2007
that's been there ever since the start of 2007 development. We had one for 2006, and 2005.
56 • RE: 55 release date (by ladislav on 2006-10-02 20:39:02 GMT from Taiwan)
I know about that page. In fact, Mandriva's upcoming releases were included in the list while the release dates on that page were still in the future. It's no longer the case though.
57 • Agree with post #53 (by HenryNettles on 2006-10-02 21:24:19 GMT from United States)
I have to agree with SimoneDice in post number 53, above. Until Linux can install software like Windows or MacOS, Linux will not be ready for the desktop.
58 • #52 XNView (by GWJMateo on 2006-10-02 21:24:23 GMT from United States)
Can't-proprietary codecs are included in the product.
What Shuttleworth was getting at is, all open source applications that can be redistributed should be in the distro's repository, not compiled from another distro, or from source.
What difference does it make if Ubuntu provides everything possible in the repositories, from which you can choose whatever you desire? The applications are the same, are they not? Do you really need to compile the tarball if it is in Universal? If so, why not use Slackware?
You are just taking a shot at Shuttleworth by taking the quote out of context.
59 • Mandriva (by Sultan Qasim Khan on 2006-10-02 21:41:38 GMT from Canada)
Curse those Mandriva employees. Linux is ready for the desktop. I use it, even my dad uses it (and he is a total computer idiot). Linux is far more stable than Windows but is not nearly as outdated. Linux just works. Shame on you Mandriva. I used to use your product in 2002 but was dissapointed and gave up. Shame on you!
60 • #59 • Mandriva (by Sultan Qasim Khan on 2006-10-02 21:41:38 GMT from Canada) (by kbob on 2006-10-02 21:53:48 GMT from Germany)
Have you read the posts above you? Apparently not. Please read the posts above you concerning the "Mandriva employees" before adding another useless comment to this list. :P
61 • 53 (by AC on 2006-10-02 21:54:06 GMT from United States)
"Let's get it to the point where I just need to go to a projects site, download the files, click install and be done. Only then will Linux be able to take market share."
I'd rather be using a "niche" operating system than end up with the breeding ground for malware that that model encourages (not that this is the only reason malware afflicts Windows so badly). Give me apt-get any day.
62 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-10-02 22:00:45 GMT from Iran, Islamic Republic of)
Have you tried installing windows xp and then updating it? It's excrutiating. A great Nvidia driver for Linux with SLI, profiles and coolbits and a few extremely popular games running natively in Linux Distros with acceptable performance would be enough to chain-convert my friends. Anyone know if UT2007 will run natively in Linux?
63 • ut2007 should run in linux natively (by Anonymous on 2006-10-02 22:29:21 GMT from Canada)
ut has always run natively in Linux, why would they change that
64 • They just don't get it (by Warpengi on 2006-10-02 22:38:37 GMT from Canada)
Some people that is. Gnu/Linux is a different operating system and so some things work differently. Installing software is one of those things. Use the repositories for your distro and installing and removing software is easy as pie.
If you read about the new features in an app and it is not updated in your distros' repositories then, suck it up, your going to have to compile from a tarball. Just because there is a newer version of an app does not mean that the one that you have installed is obsolete. I get so tired of that phrase "obsolete software" being used to describe the next to last minor rev of an app. If it works on your system and is maintained in the repositories of your distro it is not obsolete for gods sake.
I personally choose my distro based on the size of repository they maintain. I like to be able to add an app that I read about on Newsforge or Theinquirer from repositories. I can compile from source when necessary but it is not my preference as it can break the system and will not do nice things like add an entry in the program menu.
Open source software has a fast release cycle. That means that if you want the latest apps change to a distro that releases new versions frequently. If you can't wait 6 months for an app to be updated then, suck it up, compile form source. If 6 months is too long to wait for an app to be updated but too often for an OS upgrade then, I'm sorry I can't help you, you're just to contrary to help.
65 • RE: # 64 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-10-02 22:48:18 GMT from Italy)
You seem to forget Debian, which with its 3 branches (4 if you consider experimental), more than 20,000 apps solves all the problems you mention.
Debian doesn't release every 6 months. It releases *daily* if you use testing or Sid.
66 • 65 (by AdamW on 2006-10-02 22:52:51 GMT from Canada)
er, how can you say what he forgot or didn't forget when he doesn't even say what distro he uses, or mention any specific distro at all?
67 • Mandriva on the desktop (by Vincent Danen on 2006-10-02 23:07:31 GMT from Canada)
Since such a fire started with my first blog post, I submit the second for everyone to read:
http://linsec.ca/blog/index.php?/archives/97-Feeding-the-frenzy-of-misinterpretation.html#extended
Hopefully the good folks here at distrowatch will put a nice spin on this one as well.
68 • RE: # 65 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-10-02 23:19:56 GMT from Italy)
"er, how can you say what he forgot or didn't forget when he doesn't even say what distro he uses, or mention any specific distro at all?"
From here:
"Open source software has a fast release cycle. That means that if you want the latest apps change to a distro that releases new versions frequently. If you can't wait 6 months for an app to be updated then, suck it up, compile form source. If 6 months is too long to wait for an app to be updated but too often for an OS upgrade then, I'm sorry I can't help you, you're just to contrary to help."
69 • No subject (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-10-02 23:22:10 GMT from Italy)
It should have been: 68 • RE: # 66
70 • Biased Distrowatch (by Undisclosed Name on 2006-10-02 23:22:25 GMT from United States)
This site is getting more and more biased against Mandriva and in favour of its sponsors Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS. And "idiot" fan-boys follow their prophet, Ladislav. You can't blame a company with a developer's opinions; this is pure stupid. Open your eyes, see the reality...
71 • am I the only person with good experience on Mandriva (by Anonymous on 2006-10-02 23:43:13 GMT from Canada)
I only used 2005 version, and it was good. I couldn't get the Nvidia driver on so I gave up, but other then that it was good.
72 • Debian and Firefox (by Jay S. on 2006-10-02 23:47:05 GMT from United States)
I, for one, welcome our new Ice Weasel overlords.
73 • 70 (by Arch User on 2006-10-02 23:51:58 GMT from United States)
I agree with comment 70th.
If you look at reviews for some distros, SuSE for example, there are for each alpha one review. I have nothing against SuSE but there are also other distros. Look at Arch Linux: almost every day is something new , there are Debian...there...
Thanks.
74 • RE: # 65 (by Warpengi on 2006-10-03 00:53:13 GMT from Canada)
The main problem that I was addressing was people who want point and click software installation like MSWindows or Mac. I would certainly not suggest those users install Debian unstable. They already are frustrated why make it worse?
You do point out that there are solutions that I had not thought of to the issue of getting the latest releases of an app. Gentoo users too would get more up to date software. Source based distros are nto for those complaining about the lack of point and click, either.
75 • Linux not Ready? (by Jose on 2006-10-03 01:06:08 GMT from United States)
Vincent (post 39), this weekend I decided to install Windows XP on a Dell Optiplex GX270. I needed it to video chat and share photos with my daughter who is stationed in Okinawa. She is a Marine. I, am by the way, in South carolina, USA. I just wanted to use XP, and have access to my Labtec webcam and my digital camera.
With PCLinuxOS or Mepis, I just install the OS and apps from the CD and everything worked, plus I got a ton of useful apps.
With Windows, it was a nightmare. The installation went fine, but USB, NIC, Video and Audio did not work. So I had to use my PCLinuxOS PC to download the drivers from Dell.
Then, of course, the web cam didn't work. I had to download drivers from Labtec. Then, you guessed it, my digital camera didn't get picked up. For what is supposed to be a Plug and Play OS, it sure didn't get crap right!
When I got everything loaded, I kept getting messages stating my PC was unsecured. So I downloaded aVast antivirus (Free) and updated the app. Then I had to download and install 89 updates! This was using a XP SP2 CD!!
I was finally able to download the Yahoo Messenger client and install it.
Imagine, all of the above just to use video chat with my daughter. Hope once GAIM includes voice and video chat (reliably), I can finally do away with XP!
76 • oooooooooooook (by neighborlee on 2006-10-03 01:09:35 GMT from United States)
hi there peeps..
On the topic of cedega/linux gaming...I know people want to play their windows games at least until linux improves on that front..but its a bit like chicken and egg..if we support cedega and preoccup oursevles with just windows games, then how are linux vendors supposed to feel about making ports for linux , - when are they going to be played ?? I find cedega a very iffy two sided coin , and I guess time will tell. I also blame linux in part for being so fragmented and not being able to do one of the things that is a hallmark OF linux, which is work together to make a project better..choice for some is l33t , but for others is confusing and fragmenting...M$ has market share because all 100,000 devs work on ONE DE, and one core,- and I expect linux should be able to do the same.
I dont think mandriva is to blame on 'this' one, but I indeed would like to know what happened to gael ?
I do think that mandriva has positioned itself oddly in linux world, as it clearly wants to 'charge' for things other desktop linux's give away . That to me is what linux is about..free OSS for those that due to their cirucumstances might not be able to pay and just flat want to be part of something bigger than they are alone. Linux is largely about being part of a bigger whole , and make our experiences better for it. It feels good to work together as a team , so I say lets get to it shall we ;-)
I think freespire /CNR is prob. the best approach we have right now at that experience ( 2.0 should bring enhancements and better hardware support due to a newer kernel ).
cheers
neigbhborlee()
77 • Linux Luvvies (by Lobster on 2006-10-03 02:35:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
Why was Gael Duval who started Mandrake forced out?
He is now creating this:
http://www.ulteo.com/main/
Should be out soon . . .
Let's support his genuine efforts.
I think we can be both Linux Lovers and have our own ideas
I am still working on this page . . .
http://tmxxine.com/Wikka/wikka.php?wakka=BetterVista
Here is a bit from it (to get that Tuxed penguin blood boiling) . . .
"The truth is that Microsoft has done the computer industry a great service. Every desktop PC has the same generic OS and it has evolved into a good, simple, general purpose, usable, working OS. Yes there are Windows variants and problems but Linux too is very varied (more so). Most will move to Linux when it is convenient to do so. In other words when it is fully compatible and no different from running Windows. Most people do not care if it is Intel or AMD inside. Both work. Who cares about what OS is running on hardware? To most people it is all geek."
78 • Vincent's reply to Distrowatch's reporting of this story (by Loungefly on 2006-10-03 02:57:42 GMT from Australia)
Vincent has posted a new entry on his blog about Distrowatch's reporting of this. He's not impressed, to put it mildy ; ) :
http://linsec.ca/blog/index.php?/archives/97-Feeding-the-frenzy-of-misinterpretation.html
79 • anti-Mandriva FUD and the mob mentality at Distrowatch (by agendelman on 2006-10-03 03:31:05 GMT from United States)
I find it remarkable that the original artical on Distrowatch, which mistakenly identified two Mandriva developers as representing the company unleashed such a torrent of anti-Mandriva rot. The article was so full of inaccuracies, and so sensationalist in its presentation, that it can only be regared as intentional and malicious FUD. I've noticed this anti-Mandriva bias on Distropwatch in the past, and have comented about it several times.
What's even more remarkable is that when it was pointed out that the personal opinions of a volunteer hardly represents Mandriva policy, the vituperation continued. There's another issue that must be addressed. The argument that Vincent was making in his original blog and in his follow up are interesting and worthy of consideration. For those Distrowatch enthusiasts who apparently can't follow a train of thought if its more than 30 words, Vincent was expressing frustration at the rapid pace of kernel development which leaves the 2.6 kernel in a perpetual development state. He was expressing frustration at how the kernel developers simply dump the latest kernel on the the folks who have to make apps and hardware work with the kernel.and often a week later dump the latest on them again.
For those who are tiring of the incessant fan-boy braying for a few favored distros, and uninformed, even mindless hostility displayed toward distros like Mandriva, a few reccomendations.
Check out a site with news and info about upcoming releases, and info about security updates for many distros:
http://www.linuxcompatible.org/
For news about upcoming releases, apps and general news:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/
cheers
80 • Linux not Ready? (by aussiebear on 2006-10-03 04:20:38 GMT from Australia)
It depends on what you mean by "Ready".
Personally, I've had no problems moving to Linux and using VMware Server to run Win2k on those "You have to run Windows apps" situations. (Apps that don't work on Wine).
So to me, Linux is ready for my desktops and my IBM ThinkPad.
I've used MS products since the MS-DOS 3.03 days, and its only in late 2004 did I began really trying Linux out and considered it as a replacement to Windows. (Mainly to get away from WGA nonsense before it became an actual problem for me).
It depends on the user in question and their skill level. You'll often find that those who succeed with the transition are those who are willing to endure the issues with Linux and are highly motivated to leave Windows. They're willing to adapt to a different way of computing.
Those who don't want to change their habits (majority) are often the ones who are impatient and come up with more and more excuses to continue with Windows. I leave them alone. (I see no point in forcing the issue, as it is THEIR money they're wasting, NOT mine).
In my experience, Linux is ready...For me.
I program on it (C/C++ and Python), P2P on it, I view, capture, and edit videos on it. And I enjoy playing with Blender. Linux covers everything I need, and that's good enough for me.
81 • Anti-Mandriva = Ladislav Bodnar (by johncoom on 2006-10-03 04:22:33 GMT from Australia)
Dear Ladislav
Now I think you should think again about slagging down any individual distro in the future - like you have been doing with Mandriva recently, as your opiniuns have become obviously bias and are becoming worth less in my (+ many others) eyes.
Now I believe I have been around in Linux longer than you (me=1996) I have tried out and used many distros and have been following DW ever since it started. I was even a Mandrake(Mandriva) user and supporter for a long time. - The fact that I have stopped using it and converted over to PCLinuxOS does not make me want to "slag down at any and every excuse" a distro that I no longer like or want to use, as you seem to be doing now.
Please, no anit-johncoom you are a troll attitude etc. - just because you have your own ideas &/or agenda and will be putting up a defensive face - Please think about why I am bothering to post a comment about this in the first place ?
Some times you have to "bite the bullet" and moderate what you may want to say, or report about in the first place.
Do what you want but -> Offered as Constructive Criticism
82 • Re. 78 (by UZ64 on 2006-10-03 04:53:23 GMT from United States)
"Vincent has posted a new entry on his blog about Distrowatch's reporting of this. He's not impressed, to put it mildy ; ) :"
Yeah, I think he's got his panties in a huge wad, to write a couple paragraphs here and then go all-out writing a massive essay in his blog. He sounds like he's about to go out on a massacre. All over a *blog* at that! (Which I didn't even waste my time reading.)
"For those Distrowatch enthusiasts who apparently can't follow a train of thought if its more than 30 words, Vincent was expressing frustration at the rapid pace of kernel development which leaves the 2.6 kernel in a perpetual development state. He was expressing frustration at how the kernel developers simply dump the latest kernel on the the folks who have to make apps and hardware work with the kernel.and often a week later dump the latest on them again."
Error: Does not compute: Too many words.
Please try reducing the number of words by 42 and try again.
83 • Mandriva ready for the desktop or not? (by ladislav on 2006-10-03 05:30:29 GMT from Taiwan)
Guys and gals,
Thanks everybody who has expressed his or her opinion on the Mandriva subject above. I don't want to add any more fuel to the fire, so I'll just make two points here:
1. Firstly, the reason I wrote what I wrote was because I found it outrageous that two Mandriva employees/developers/contributors (or whatever they call them nowadays) would assert that they'd "never use Linux on their main desktop" and that "Linux is of course not ready for the desktop". Maybe some of you expected me to praise the two developers for being honest about how they feel, but personally I wasn't amused. I remember that not so long ago the Red Hat CEO said someting to that effect as well and he wasn't exactly applauded by the open source community either.
2. Secondly, and I have to be honest about it, sometimes I feel like spicing up DistroWatch Weekly with some controversial material or harsh criticism. Many of you seem to believe that more often than not it's Mandriva that ends up on the receiving end of my stick, and you might well be correct in saying that, but that's only because, in my view, Mandriva has made so many blunders in recent years that I find it hard to say anything positive about it. But I don't want to go into this here.
Anyway, go ahead and keep the opinions coming or, if you feel like killing the topic, we can do that too. AdamW tells me that Mandriva 2007 will be released this morning (if everything goes well), so we'll be able to judge the product instead of judging the developers. He refused to give me early access to the torrent file, so I can't tell you how good the final product is, but I did spend a few hours testing one of the release candidates and was suitably impressed. My father also uses Mandriva 2006 as his primary operating system on his laptop.
As always, if you have a positive review or opinion about Mandriva Linux, feel free to email it to me and I'll be happy to publish it in the next issue of DWW.
In the meantime, don't forget to check out the brand new Slack 11.0! It should be great!
84 • RE: Nobody noticed new Ubuntu CE build (by Misty on 2006-10-03 05:52:14 GMT from United States)
"There have been some changes made to the web content filtering. The Firefox proxy settings have been 'locked down' to prevent users from bypassing the filtering"
I'm a religious woman, but the above statement is exactly why I won't be using that. I guess it might be useful to people with kids, but I don't have any -- but from the sound of it, this can't be disabled. And as a grown woman, I don't need web content filtering or having FF locked down. Just because I'm religious doesn't mean I care for the old-fashioned knee-jerk desire to censor everything. I feel that I can trust myself. Furthermore, I don't always agree with what should be censored.
So, yes, some of us did notice, but we don't want it, even though it's supposed to be made for us. Maybe we would if the devs had seen fit to give us choices as if we were adults.
85 • This is a shame (by crac on 2006-10-03 06:20:46 GMT from Switzerland)
This mandriva FUD by ladislav is really a big shame for the whole linux community! If you dont like mandriva, ok, open your own blog and post it there, but please not here where users are looking for founded informations about different distributions. Your article is simply stupid and missleading; you should write for the rainbow press instead of authoring technical articles! You really disqualified yourself...
86 • Re: This is a shame (by Ariszló on 2006-10-03 07:06:00 GMT from Hungary)
No, this is "a weekly opinion column."
87 • Debian 4.0 release schedule progressing as planned (by pekka on 2006-10-03 07:59:49 GMT from Finland)
Despite all the pressure and tensions that the recent controversial press coverage and the switching towards a new, time-based release cycle have created among Debian developers, the release managers and the project leader seem to be optimistic that Debian "etch" can still be released on time according to the original schedule. Most of the release goals have already been achieved or are currently in the process of being completed. It looks like Debian 4.0 "etch" will be a great release and it will show everyone the amazing progress that Debian has made since the "sarge" release. The general freeze is planned for Wednesday, 18 October 2006 and the final release is planned for Monday, 4 December 2006.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/09/msg00020.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/10/msg00001.html
If you want to help Debian, there is still time to test "etch" and the new Debian installer and to send installation reports and bug reports.
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
http://d-i.alioth.debian.org/manual/en.i386/ch05s03.html#submit-bug
http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/436
88 • slackware 11 (by mofo on 2006-10-03 08:31:21 GMT from Italy)
just ask... and start torrenting please :D
89 • CLUG donation (by Adrian on 2006-10-03 08:39:58 GMT from South Africa)
Hi
A big thanks to distrowatch for their donation to the CLUG http://wiki.clug.org.za/wiki/Futurex/Sponsors
90 • Re #75 by Jose (by Zu on 2006-10-03 09:16:28 GMT from Poland)
Your post is an evidence you have no idea how to properly install Windows. If you'd get perpared (DW and burn appropriate drivers + Autopatcher) then you'd be done in less than 1 hour. Nonetheless, you can even prepare personalised install DVD for unattended setup. All above without single worry about kernel, repositories, dependencies and the like. And if you'd google a little you could find tons of free applications. I'm far from be MS advocate, however the truth is the majority of "bug fixes" is caused because there is pretty amount of jerks and ordinary criminals developing viruses, trojan horses and all the staff making the web one huge trash bin.
And to make things clear I mean no disregard to Linux. I hope in 2 years to be able to switch if the OS goes out of beta stage.
91 • Mandriva (by Andy on 2006-10-03 09:52:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
Another 2 employees bite the dust. That should put Mandriva's bottom line up by about $80,000 in the year end profits!!
92 • Mandriva's public image (by ArrrEffff on 2006-10-03 10:15:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm sorry, but with my "business head" (as opposed to me fanboy head) screwed on I can see exactly where Ladislav was coming from in that article. These two guys are key people in the Mandriva development and such their opinions do reflect upon Mandriva as a company, i'm sorry but no amount of excuses from Mandriva employees/supporters can deny that, it is a fact of business. Business, i'm afraid, is something that Mandriva appears to be incapable of. Under a normal business/employment contract Vincent would have been dismissed for bringing the company into disrepute with his opinions, but this is Mandriva we are taking about, the faceless company that relies loyalty rather than good business sense. That same company that refuses to protect the interests of their customers by turning a blind eye to Ebay sellers and other organisations selling copies of paid software. The same company that changes it's obligations, sometimes (in my opinion) voiding their contracts. The same company that has it's community manager come here and basically flame and accuse Ladislav stating that his opinion of anothers opinion isn't a valid opion, and more like FUD, simply because it doesn't agree with their line of thought! (since the said community manager felt free to make assertions then I will too based on a plain text communication, note the sarcasm).
Pesonally I wouldn't recommend Mandriva to any newcomer. This is not on the bases of the distro itself, rather the community that surrounds it. Distro's like Ubuntu, Fedora, Gentoo, Debian etc have excellent vast (and official) communities, such that solutions to problems are easily found. But Mandriva's official community struggles with the simplest of problems, and often you have to turn to unofficial communities (which by and large many of the more experienced users have moved on) or general linux communities! Yes the distro itself is user-friendly, up to a point. While the Mandriva installer is aesthetically welcoming for the newcomer more so than Anaconda and YaST installer, it does, in my experience, tend to be less reliable in that is fails to write to config files to enable critical kernel modules at startup and unable to update during install, even though the network connection has been configured and is available. Pretty much a killer as far as newcomers are concerned. Lets not forget the farce surrounding the use of KAT, or the logrotate bug, or the CVS version of xorg used in 2006 in order to better serve Mandriva's business partner, Intel. Sorry that last part has Microsoft written all over it!
93 • Re #90 (by Jose on 2006-10-03 10:28:17 GMT from United States)
Your post is evidence that you did not fully comprehend my first post. I know you can do all you stated, but you should have to with a "Plug and Play" OS. Does that sound unreasonable?
Of course it does! New hardware comes out everyday. Yet, Window fanatics, like yourself piss and moan on Linux now able to support a printer or webcam without you having to search for a driver.
Yet it is the same thing in the Windows world. The only difference is that in the Linux world, the community builds the majority of the drivers and makes it freely available to all. While in your world, the vendors create the drivers and guards them.
Dependencies? What version of Linux have you tried? With Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora and a score of others, I had no worry of dependencies or kernel compiles. Are you sure you even tried Linux this century?
Repositories? Windows users have the same in the many webpages they go through to find stuff. With Linux, it is just vastly easier. I mean, instead of going to nonags.com, tucows.com, freeware.com, openoffice.org, etc, in Linux you just fire up Synatic, Yum or what your distro uses, select and install.
As for the "truth" of the Windows updates, feel free to go to http://www.grc.com/dos/intro.htm This is just one example of what happens when you build an OS without care to security. If you build such an OS, then don't cry when punks and jerks take advantage of the many - MANY openings you left.
But I fully believe that to each their own. I wish you the best of luck in sticking with Windows. Perhaps when they finally do as Apple did, and switch to a Unix like core, you will finally be able to enjoy the OS, rather then spend all day patching it, the virus defs, etc, etc.
94 • No subject (by Zu on 2006-10-03 11:22:34 GMT from Poland)
Me, a Windows fanatic, no I'm surely not. I don't "piss or moan on Linux" either. Drivers? - I buy a device and get drivers for it bundled. Openings left behind?, name one OS without; etc., etc...
In fact I'm sick and tired of Windows therefore I'm this unpatient awaiting good Linux distro. Therefore I'm here.
I didn't intend to insult you nor start a flame so there's no reason you overreact.
I wish Linux supports hardware in a reasonable way and becomes a system developed by ppl for ppl (not by geeks for geeks).
95 • Mandriva 2007 out (by Anonymous on 2006-10-03 12:25:34 GMT from Hungary)
Mandriva 2007 is finally out:
http://www.mandriva.com/en/community/news/mandriva_linux_2007_is_out
96 • Re: 95 Mandriva 2007 out (by johncoom on 2006-10-03 15:06:19 GMT from Australia)
Well I find it rather ironic they release now just after the free publicity from DW etc) remeber even the bad publicity is good slogan :-(
nice one 9
link) From Hungary - I personally would never use it again (Mandriva) a basically pay for distro, with medioca support, not a lot differnt from the pay for version SUSE in the fact thast thy have got to make mony.! And the single region orianted free versions of MDV (one) are so limited the are only goods as Trial-ware and hardly worth testing for the newbie.
Well Ladislav Bodnar you certainly helped Mandriva with publicity (inaverted or other wise) I hope every also gets the joke ( ironic )
I do not know all the answers ! may be you should have a re think ?
Happy days - John
97 • re 95 (by Pierre Tramo on 2006-10-03 15:19:26 GMT from France)
Yes, Mandriva is out today, but it has nothing to do with DW.
And you're wrong, Mandriva One is not the only free version. You can get a 3CDs version from this page :
http://www.mandriva.com/en/download/free
98 • Post #90 (Dependency) (by SimoneDice on 2006-10-03 15:28:58 GMT from United States)
Quote: "Dependencies? What version of Linux have you tried? With Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora and a score of others, I had no worry of dependencies or kernel compiles. Are you sure you even tried Linux this century?"
I think the question is: "Have 'you' tried Linux this century?".
There are always dependency problems if you still with a distro for longer than 6 months and want to upgrade to a newer version of the program. No, there are no dependency problems if you still to what are offered. But if you want to upgrade a program later without the entire distro, then many times you run into the problems. How long have you been using Linux? I personally have been since 1999. Not an incredibly long time, but a long time for most.
99 • 94 (by AC on 2006-10-03 15:29:19 GMT from United States)
"I wish Linux... becomes a system developed by ppl for ppl (not by geeks for geeks)."
Hey, geeks are "ppl" too!
100 • Linux vs. Windows (by linbetwin on 2006-10-03 16:33:58 GMT from Romania)
Let me don my tinfoil hat and scratch here a few of my worthless opinions in the Linux vs. Windows debate:
¤ Windows costs money, most Linux distros don't.
¤ A "virgin" install of Windows is pretty much useless, while even the most lightweight distros come with a lot of drivers ands software.
¤ Windows is less secure and one of the big reasons may or may not be the fact that it is the overwhelmingly predominant target for malware-mongers. Still, Windows can be used securely with a few freeware applications and a little commonsense. OTOH, Linux seems to be more secure. I have seen a lot of complaints on Linux forums (hardware, software, etc.) but I have NEVER read about virus/trojans/spyware problems.
OTOH:
¤ Linux is buggier than Windows. Release cycles are too short, developers are racing to catch up with Windows and OS X, new features are constantly implemented with poor quality control. The million eyes that make bugs shallow is a myth.
¤ Some distros claim they have 10,000+ apps in their repos. This is another myth. That number represent packages, (libraries, dependencies, documentation, older versions of some packages, and maybe a few hundred apps). However, you will find that not all of those apps work as advertised or are worth installing. Compare that with the thousands of high-quality free/freeware/shareware/commercial apps available for Windows.
¤ If Linux is about freedom, choice and configurability, why do I have to depend on my distribution's repositories to bring me newer versions of apps? Sure, you can cross your fingers and try installing a newer OOo or Firefox in your current distro, but will it work? Even OSS apps like these two install and function better under Windows. Can you imagine a Windows user saying: "Man, I can't wait for Vista so I can have Firefox 2.0, Picasa2, Winamp 5.3 and MS Office 2007!"
¤ Maybe I'll come up with some more pros and cons.
101 • Re: 100 (from Romania) (by LinuxUser on 2006-10-03 17:06:21 GMT from United States)
Hi!
Are you on the M$ Romania pay list?
102 • Mandriva 2007 (by werner, Cayenne at 2006-10-03 17:16:28 GMT from France)
@#95,97: It seems to be out -- but try to find a mirror site where you can normally (without torrent, but with ftp) download the isos ... :(
Beside of this, I'm afraid its out with and delivered with all the bugs it had at the beta/RC versions, because they were so many that correct them good would need more 2 months ...
Im tired of the bugs of Mandrake which constantly remains uncorrected. For example, that when you enable or disable services, that these changes are not storaged/updated correctly (that it do this, first you have to start manually rawdevice). Etc.
in the last time, Im using exclusively Slackware, thats easy and fast, even installed about 60 Gb additional/downloaded programs. Dependencies ? Im not worry about and ignore them, so one have a statistical noise of 5% of progs which dont run, no problem
103 • RE #100 • Linux vs. Windows (by Warpengi on 2006-10-03 17:21:54 GMT from Canada)
Compare the thousands of high-quality free apps in Linux with the thousands of buggy, poorly designed, propietary and freeware apps in MSWindows.
You don't have to depend on your distros repositories. You are free to build your own packages or fork the entire distro and build packages for that. You are free to move to a different distro for more up to date packages. You are free to compile from source. I did not count the number of freedoms that is and there are probably more. An app available for MS has one source and if that does not work you're hooped. No other options for that app.
Can you imagine a Linux user saying "Man I can't wait for the next release of my favourite distro in 4 or 5 years so I can have the features I can get today in MSWindows?"
104 • Edgy Eft Beta 1 (by GWJMateo on 2006-10-03 17:25:19 GMT from United States)
Nice! New Slackware and Mandriva releases. Unfortunately, you will have to pry Edgy out of my cold dead fingers. :-p
105 • Re: #101 (by linbetwin on 2006-10-03 17:31:54 GMT from Romania)
Hi!
Are you on the M$ Romania pay list?
Hi! I'm VP of FUD and fanboyism at Microsoft Romania. Nice to meet you. I'm gonna f***ing bury this Linux guy!
106 • 2 more people satisfied with mandriva (cf #71) (by dbrion on 2006-10-03 17:46:45 GMT from France)
I've been satisfied with Mandriva (for my laptops :9.1,9.2, a mixture of 10.2,2005 and a little 2006; for professional use a distant ~788 km server on 10.1 I think) I mainly use ... for computing (stats, simulations)... A friend of mine I installed a Mandriva 2006 in his computer (and Fortran compilers) remains my friend, I am also very glad of Windows XP VCE (without any web connexion cf #84, once shipped with g95, R, Scilab (http://www.g95.org, htp://r-project.org)/, cygwin, a decent vim7.0 mingw and vmware, to test some promising linuxs when all updates I did will become a mess).
As far as now, only Mandriva 2007 remains: as I like dual boots, an intuitive disk portitionner is essential (4 routine calculation, it does not matter being intuitive) : Zenwalk recommend, before installiong, that disks should be sawed with Mandriva installer if one is not sure..... The control center is very useful too, but I feel I could live without it. French keyboqrs are supported,too (which does not Kqte OS I found very pleqsant otherzise).
The most severe default is the lack of Fortran compilers: 4 g95, it is very easy 2 install; g77 must be configured (where I want 2 put it), made & installed with the corresponding gcc 3xxx, which is long. This is a simple way of not damaging a Linux system too fast.
Windows never failed, and Mandriva problems with pcmcia were corrected by installing a new 'cooker' kernel; lilo was automatically reconfigured, and it seems easy to maintain(ther eis a man; grub has not & is sophisticated).
It is obvious that, after testing knoppixes, Suze, Fedora (both have Fortran), KateOSes and Kurumins, I will buy, if necessary , a Mandriva.
However, I quite agree with #39 about 3D screens (my screens are flat) and th necessity of reading 2 or 3 times texts, even if they have more than 4 words(#82).
Stability of a system is more essential, and makes support unnecessary (and difficult, without web).
I am very sorry for my poor English (by the way, what do panties, wad #82 and desktops #**** mean?)
)...
107 • Re: #103 (by linbetwin on 2006-10-03 17:59:04 GMT from Romania)
Compare the thousands of high-quality free apps in Linux... ...like gnome-mag the screen magnifier that uses up to 600 MB of RAM and as much CPU time as it can get to display poor magnification. Or kmag, the magnifier that crashes X. These are the only screen magnifiers in Linux. But who cares about accessibility when XGL/AIGLX is "teh thing"?
You don't have to depend on your distros repositories. You are free to build your own packages or fork the entire distro and build packages for that. You are free to move to a different distro for more up to date packages. You are free to compile from source. I did not count the number of freedoms that is and there are probably more.
You didn't count the freedom to build my own hardware from scratch, write drivers, a new programming language that would suit my needs and travel to the moon. I know all about these freedoms. How about the freedom to beg backports for newer version, the freedom to break your system trying to install stuff outside the repos, the freedom to discover that compiling is MUCH more difficult than ./configure, make, make install...
Can you imagine a Linux user saying "Man I can't wait for the next release of my favourite distro in 4 or 5 years so I can have the features I can get today in MSWindows?"
I can see some Debian users' hands raised. And don't get me wrong, Debian's release cycle is the most sane of all distros. When all the distros will stop playing catch-up with Windows/OS X/each other, they will realize that a 6-month release cycle is not realistic. Packaging the newest GNOME or KDE tonight and releasing your distro tomorrow does not a stable distro make.
108 • ArrrEfff (by AdamW on 2006-10-03 18:00:06 GMT from Canada)
Arreff, as I told Ladislav by email, I don't have a problem with him printing negative stories about MDV, so long as they're actually factually accurate. My problem with this story is it simply wasn't. It clearly suggested that Fabrice Facorat was a Mandriva employee (by questioning why we, quote, "keep" him). He isn't, and never has been. This is my major beef with the story, and I'm amused to note that Ladislav still hasn't corrected it. I doubt he will. I also object to the sensationalism of taking Vincent's offhand mention of "kernel developers" as an excuse to invoke the names of Linus Torvalds and Alan Cox, and to the overall inaccurate representation of Vincent's post.
109 • werner (by AdamW on 2006-10-03 18:02:58 GMT from Canada)
werner, if we put the Free / One ISOs on FTP mirrors at this point, they would all immediately fall over. This is what used to happen before we had Bittorrent - we'd do a release and you couldn't get it for a week because the demand killed all the mirror sites.
The ISOs will go onto the mirrors once the initial wave of demand has been handled by torrents.
110 • Instalinux (by Phil on 2006-10-03 18:39:18 GMT from United States)
I have read DistroWatch for a few years and look foreward to it each week. I am a LiveCd addict and try many of the distros that are announced on DW.
I saw the blurb about Instalinux in this weeks issue and though it sounded like a good way to burn a little bandwidth. I have just completed building a computer with an AMD64 cpu so I selected KUBUNTU x86_64 from the list of available OSs. The first part of the install went as stated in the article. I downloaded the 30mb ISO burned it to cd and rebooted. That's when the fun started. It booted to a prompt advising I could either type INSTALL for an automatic installation, or MANUAL if I wanted to have more input optionsl. Since I was installing it as the second OS on the computer I wanted to have a little more control over what was going on so I chose MANUAL. It started booting but after a few seconds I got a 'kernel panic' warning and the system froze. I tried a couple times even reburning the ISO on a new CD to make sure I had a good copy and each time it froze so I finally decided to try the INSTALL automatic option. It finally booted to an awful text based menu that I had to pick my way through with no explanations of what to do. I finally found how to start the actual install and the first thing it does is start downloading a 707MB base package.
After a few hours of downloading it started configuring the system and finally reboots to a GRUB menu with 6 selections for the KUBUNTU that I had just installed so I selected the top default one and let the system boot. It went through all the normal hardware detection and ends with a command line login prompt. I logged in with the user and password I had setup at the Instalinux site and was greeted with a beautiful command line prompt. I typed startx and got an error message that xserver couldn't start. I messed around with x for a while but couldn't get it to run no matter what I did. To sum it up; I wasted 5+ hours installing an OS that really didn't work. I had basic Linux functionality but no GUI and in todays world even Linux software is mostly done for an X windows interface. I had to download 737MB for this setup when the current KUBUNTU CD ISO is only 696MB and it can be used as a rescue CD if something happens to the installed system. I never saw an offer to download a smaller package. I may have missed it in that awful menu that comes up after typing INSTALL. Maybe one of the other distros offered on the site would allow to download a smaller package but my experience with Instalinux is that it is a waste of time. I think more distros need to offer a mini livecd that would install the basic OS and get you up on a network and use Synaptic or Kpackage or the package handler of your choice to load just the software you need. The basic LiveCD should also have enough tools to use as a rescue LiveCD.
I really appreciate all the work the people at DistroWatch put in to keep this site up to date. So many Linux sites have out of date information on them but DistroWatch always seems to have the latest.
111 • Linux (by Synergy6 on 2006-10-03 19:46:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
What I find interesting is the assumption that anything good about Windows = on the payroll. WTH? I've been a Man Utd fan since I was 6 years old, but the money that's passed between us has been in the other direction. You CAN like something without being paid to like it you know.
And in another sense, this anti-MS vitriol is rather ironic. The very bugs with Windows are the things that push people towards Linux. If you could pay £100 and get a near-perfect OS, the Linux ecosystem would be decimated. Obviously, those who truly believe in OSS would stay, but as far as I can guess the silent majority of Linux users are such because it works for them. And all power to them too, for that matter.
My opinion is, you use Windows, cool. You use Linux, cool. You use Solaris, cool. It's just an OS after all. If you said you used TNT, I might get worried. But OS? Doesn't bother me. Each to his own, and I applaud the two bloggers for sharing their true feelings, regardless of whether I agree with them. What the Linux world needs is more people who are prepared to say just what's wrong with it, to hell with the flamewars. "Fanboy" type pampers who apologise for every mistake and gloat over every success are worthless, and even just this comment section shows a taste of how many there are on all sides.
112 • Linux or Windows? (by ArchLinux User on 2006-10-03 20:13:28 GMT from United States)
People have computers and they use them for what?
Maybe 90% of M$ have Word or Office or whatever is name for what? For type letters? Why they don't download or buy CD which is not expensive? Because they scare to install FREE system. I started with DOS, than I had maybe month Windows 3.0 and formated disk and installed OS/2. Soon came Linux and still is JUST Linux on my computer and I type letters with free programs, use GIMP for graphics and do IMO many things same as Photoshop users, I never had problems with viruses, spyware...
And why this "war" about Mandriva? Mandriva is one Linux distribution as Arch Linux. Some people like VW some BMW and some people like Mandriva and other Arch Linux :). But we are ALL Linux users.
113 • Re: 111 (by kilgoretrout on 2006-10-03 20:37:45 GMT from United States)
Synergy6, people make those kinds of comment about favorable MS posts because MS has been caught on several occasions hiring people to post/write favorble stuff about MS without revealing they are on the MS payroll. It's known as an "asroturf campaign", i.e. a phoney grass roots campaign, and MS is known to engage in this type of activity from way back in the DOS days to the present.
114 • RE: #107 (by Warpengi on 2006-10-03 20:52:09 GMT from Canada)
Like Kopete, Gaim, OpenOffice, firefox, kontact, gftp, mplayer, vlc, k3b... the list goes on and on. Not to mention command line utilities like nmap, dig, cfdisk, vi, findutils, openssh... again the list goes on and on. Best of breed software.
Granted there are buggy programs for Linux. That's true for MSWindows too I'm sure. You suggested comparing the buggy Linux apps with the best MSWindows apps. I'm just reversing those choices to illustrate how ridiculous your suggestion was.
"How about the freedom to beg backports for newer version, the freedom to break your system trying to install stuff outside the repos"
Sure, but I already addressed that when I mentioned building packages for your distro. Many distros make it easy but if you can't or won't do that use what you have, it still works, the latest rev is not going to make your life complete.
"the freedom to discover that compiling is MUCH more difficult than ./configure, make, make install..."
If you did not want to know that then don't try to compile, you're free to do that too.
You don't like Linux and prefer MSWindows then you're free to do that as well. Complaining because it isn't exactly like MSWindows won't win you any supporrt here.
The longest wait between releases was between Woody and Sarge, 3 years less a month. Of course it seemed longer. When was XP released? 2002? So you are waiting 4 years for that and you will need new hardware to run it. Meanwhile Mozilla gave us tabbed browsing and a pop-up blocker at least 2 years before MS could offer it and you won't need new hardware to run the latest Linux distro although if you want all the eye candy you will need a moderately new system. If your system is more than 3 years old you MIGHT not be able to run all the graphical features. Looks like MS might catch up to Linux with this OS release but it is unlikely they will on the next release.
115 • Next issue (by Visible on 2006-10-03 21:02:14 GMT from Canada)
I believe the next issue of Distrowatch Weekly will be interesting. Slackware 11 and Mandriva 2007 are out. They are major distributions with very different targets. I know I am going to try them. Slackware isn't my style even.
116 • #100 - I concur for InstaLinux (by MoscowTime on 2006-10-03 21:02:32 GMT from Russian Federation)
I had a similar sad experience with InstaLinux, my target distro was SUSE 10.1.
There is some irregularity in my box - I have installed there an add-on HDD controller from Promise Technologies, so my drives are now: hda for CDROM, hdg and hdh for my two 80-GB hard drives. I had to install it, since my BIOS has the 37-GB limitation, and without this controller I could not boot any partition located beyond that limit.
I faithfully filled out all the required blanks in the form - my static IP address, gateway, mask, name server, checked all desired packages, but when I reached the 2-nd page, there were no choices for hdg and/or hdh drives. The menu was limited at 4 drives - hda, hdb, hdc, hdd.
For lack of a better option, I marked hdd as the drive to install and partition, then downloaded the installer image - this one was a scant 9 MB large. Then I burned the CDROM and rebooted.
Sure enough, I chose "manual" from the menu, since actually I didn't want to partition the disk. My hdh is already partitioned, so I wanted to use the existing 1-GB swap and one of 13-GB Reiserfs partitions, just to replace the old installation with the brand new SUSE 10.1.
First of all, the installer reported that I have no hard drives to install and/or partition. My drives - hdg and hdh - were not detected by the installer. I still attempted to start the installation, in hope that some of the first steps in the installation would load in RAM a decent kernel capable of detecting the drives. At this moment the installer reported that I have also no network card present - my eth0 also was not properly detected.
That was enough - I gave up.
Maybe, for somebody InstaLinux will work, but in my case it was a dismal failure.
Best wishes
BNK
117 • Re - 116 - Instalinux (by MoscowTime on 2006-10-03 21:08:18 GMT from Russian Federation)
Sorry for the wrong reference in the previous post - it is 110
118 • RE: #114 (by Synergy6 on 2006-10-03 21:24:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
Slightly ironic examples. All are either available on Windows, or, IMO, not "Best of Breed". I think you're confusing "Linux", i.e. the kernel, plus perhaps the main distros, and "OSS", i.e. tons of great (and some awful) programs.
Anyway, I don't think anybody disputes that OSS has brought us some great software. I guess the point is that maybe it can't do everything + the kitchen sink, and that actually (drumroll please) pointing out its flaws is *not* blasphemy (much as some may regard it as such).
"So you are waiting 4 years for that and you will need new hardware to run it. " Err, no, you don't. I'm writing this on a PC I bought when XP came out, and it runs Vista. It might not do all the bells and whistles, but thats the same for any software. "how ridiculous your suggestion was." - Pot et kettle?
119 • Mandrake 2007/Slackware (by fgibbs@acm.orgFritz on 2006-10-03 22:17:06 GMT from United States)
I doubt the Mandrake 2007 release coincided with the Slackware 11.0 release by coincidence, but we have to give them credit: they are going up against a release that has been awaited like many folks await Christ's ressurection.
Patrick and Tea, we welcome this next version with open arms. Mandriva, we wish you all the very best............................................like they say: want to use GNU/Linux, use Mandrake or Fedora.......wanna learn GNU/Linux, use Slackware.
Anyway, to avoid any flames, as I am way too old and have no patience for the like, Red Hat, SuSE, and Mandrake are the RPM "winners", Debian wins the "apt-get" of the world award by far, and Slackware, well, this lady has no equals.........
Yours in code,
Fritz
120 • Dark_Schneider reply to this FUD about "Linux ready for Desktop ?" (by FACORAT Fabrice on 2006-10-03 23:47:14 GMT from France)
I'm Fabrice FACORAT and it's very sad how people are just jumping in FUD like this :(
1. I'M NOT A MANDRIVA EMPLOYEE. I'm working as Sysadmin in a company doing fiscal business. ALL ( yes I said ALL ) computers ( servers and workstation ) are under Linux and more precisely Mandriva. Even the laptops are under Linux.
2. This was my PERSONAL OPINION on my PERSONAL BLOG, and so this doesn't reflect Mandriva opinion.
3. In my blog I never mention Mandriva
4. I NEVER SAID that I will not use Mandriva or Linux as my desktop OS. Indeed I'm only using Linux as work but also at home. My girlfriend is using my computer under Linux
5. At the end of my blog I said the following :
So Linux is not ready for mass consumer desktop PC. However people with enough knowledges can use Linux on desktop.
This sentence is very important ! You, me, us can use Linux as our main desktop OS because we have sufficient knowledges to use it correctly and know what to do and not. however for Joe Bar/DUPONT/Luce & henry, this is a different story.
May main worry was about drivers, and this is a key point.
Please read this sentence :
Of course if you have the latest distro version with the latest software ( kernel, xorg, ... ), you may have support support even for your latest hardware. But maybe in 1 year you will have to upgrade to a new version of the distro because you decide to upgrade your hardware.
The monolithic approach in Linux/BSD is interesting because all drivers are already integrated and as they are in a common place, they may have better review. However this system lacks of flexibility. unfortunately in the desktop environment people need flexibility because you have no control over what kind of hardware they will try to use ... in the future.
What does this mean ? If you buying your hardware carefully and using a recent distro, everything is fine. Now 3 years later, with the same distro version, buy a new hardware. If your distro have the driver, you're fine, if not ... you may be in trouble. Want to upgrade kernel/worg to support your hardware ? you may have to upgrade udev or others stuff because of API/ABI change.
ME I can do it, that why I'm using Linux as my main/only desktop OS but FOR ME/for my personal use. However most people can't cope with kernel upgrade, API change, package/programs backports, and even system upgrade, etc ...
121 • Windoze vs. Lihux (by Anonymous on 2006-10-04 00:24:57 GMT from United States)
#100:
> Still, Windows can be used securely with a few freeware applications and a little commonsense.
I disagree. Windows is so full of holes, and it's highly targetted. It's a terrible combination. But then again I don't really feel safe on Linux, at least without running SELinux.
#103
> Compare the thousands of high-quality free apps in Linux with the thousands of buggy, poorly designed, propietary and freeware apps in MSWindows.
haha... surely you're joking. There are order of magnitudes more software for Windows, and the best are of much higher quailty and more polished. Sure there are some open source gems of programs on Linux, and the situation is getting better all the time, but in general, the apps available for Linux seem pretty primitive. Intellectually I prefer free and open source though... so Linux is the direction that I'm headed.
122 • Mandriva developers comments (by DarkcodeR on 2006-10-04 00:49:09 GMT from Puerto Rico)
As other person comment here, the expressions made by those two developers are not necessary Mandriva official opinion. But anyway, I think it's wrong. If you check the kernel packages you'll see that kernel 2.6.16.x patches where released even after kernel 2.6.17 was out. At the time of this post, the latest subpatch in the 2.6.16 branch is 2.6.16.29. If that's not supporting previous versions, tell me what it is.
123 • to #122 : supporting kernel (by FACORAT Fabrice on 2006-10-04 00:55:35 GMT from France)
So this means that in there's new driver in 2.6.16 branch in case I had to stay with this version ? now this is security fixes. security fixes is not the issue.
This is not about supporting older kernel release.
124 • About the 2 devs talking trash (by Kensai on 2006-10-04 01:37:43 GMT from Puerto Rico)
The 2 devs one volunteer and one employee of mandriva, they are both idiots who does not know what they are talking about, so why we pay attention to them?. If Ladislav saw something one way, he isn't perfect and he deserve the right to be wrong/right. I doesn't see the comment on DWN as anti mandriva FUD. I saw it like I read it here, just the opinion of 2 idiots.
125 • To #124 : About the 2 devs talking trash (by FACORAT Fabrice on 2006-10-04 03:07:58 GMT from France)
When he add that people shouldn't buy Mandriva, it's FUD IMHO.
When he express personal opinion as being Mandriva truth, it's FUD IMHO
I'm using Linux as my main Desktop, in fact it's the only OS Ihave on my computer.
All computers at work are running Linux. I do the migration 4 years ago and i can assure you that 4 years ago, telling your boss that it should migrate the workstations from Windows to Linux was somewhat ... unusual.
IMHO I know what I'm talking about.
I learn and help Windows users ( and try to promote Free Software, I already convert many peoples to FF/OO )
I'm using, doing formation and maintening Linux.
Maybe the title of my blog was too provocative, but people should have at least the blog and the last sentence : So Linux is not ready for mass consumer desktop PC. However people with enough knowledges can use Linux on desktop.
Last but not least, i praise Linux usage in enterprise world as servers and workstations in my blog.
To Ladislav> IMHO acting like this is unfair.
Mandriva has made so many blunders in recent years : could you be more specific ?
I have the right to say whatever i want on my personal blog. I do remember polemic in planet-gnome about some blogs talking about Isreal/Liban/Palestine and at the end, most people tell they had the right to say whatever they want.
However I'm finding way more offending when an Ubuntu contributor and, it seems, a kernel/gnome contributer ( Paul Drain ) is proposing modified GPL source code in a binary form and is charging for it to allow people to fix their bug :(
see https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-driver-ati/+bug/36596
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=15620&comment_id=155839
Shiyu Tang> FF is "slow" in 2007 because of pango. However if you want correct support for RTL languages ( chineses, japenese ), you'd rather have pango support ...
126 • Some thoughts on Slackware 11 (by rglk on 2006-10-04 03:34:04 GMT from United States)
Some ramblings about Slackware 11:
I don't like the hype about new version releases of Linux distros that's so common in Linux journalism. As far as Slackware is concerned, the truth is that Slackware is being improved and upgraded continually, virtually on a daily basis. The upgrades wind up in what's called "Slackware -current". Every once in a while (roughly on a yearly basis), e.g. when a new kernel has been adopted, when a whole bunch of major upgrades have piled up and when Patrick Volkerding thinks that he's got all of that new stuff working together very nicely, the -current version is then given a new major version number and so something like v.11 is born.
I'd never used Slackware before and installed v.10.2 half a year ago. I was surprised that it pretty much was working out of the box, in fact was working very well, looking very good and running very fast. Still, being under the mistaken impression that Slackware is a geek distro that requires a lot of attention, I didn't use it very much, opting instead for Zenwalk, one of its descendents.
Zenwalk is a lightweight, pared down version of Slackware that's specifically targeted at the everyday desktop user. There is hardly anything better around today than Zenwalk if you're looking for a light, fast, managable alternative to the bloatware that most of the major Linux distros have become today.
I still was keen on putting Zenwalk's progenitor through its paces but I was waiting for Slack 11 to come out. Three weeks ago, I decided that there was no need to wait any longer and installed Slackware -current which at that time was roughly equivalent to what P.V. called Slackware 11 RC5. If I eventually wanted to get what's now called Slackware 11, I merely would have to install a number of very recent upgrades.
What are my impressions from using Slackware 11 exclusively for three weeks? Two words: surprise and delight.
Surprise that it turns out to be so easy to use and to work so well (even with a brand new laptop with dual core processor, SATA drive and wireless networking, using the SMP kernel v.2.16.17.13), and delight in it being uncluttered, transparent, full-featured but still easy to manage, and fun to use.
I'd increasingly gotten fed up with the average bloated Linux distro (that means just about any of the top 10 or 15 on the DW hit list) that does everything via GUI and in the process hides and obscures the workings of Linux proper. These distros all seem to be converging on some kind of generic early 21st century desktop environment that's more or less the same for Linux, Windows and Mac OS X. Is there anything left there behind the thick layers of eye candy and click-only ease of use that's distinctly Linux?
I'd found that in working and struggling with these Linux distros I didn't really learn much Linux. In three weeks with Slackware I've learned more real Linux than I'd learned in three months with Mandrake or Xandros or MEPIS or pure Debian. Slackware makes learning Linux easy because it's relatively simple, it's transparently laid out and it's well documented in a managable and easily digestable format (e.g. Slackbook, Slacker's Bible etc.).
There is a bit of lore saying that once you run Slackware you stick with it and you don't go back to running any other Linux distro. I can see that there may be some truth in that. Without a doubt, Slackware is not a distro for total Linux newbies. But once you've gained a little experience with installing and running a few Linux distros, running Slackware will become easy, and perhaps you'll breathe a sigh of relief, as I did.
I certainly greatly enjoy running this distro, even when I'm bumping into difficulties. When you solve problems you encounter with Slackware, you actually learn something about Linux, rather than merely finding a temporary fix for some unnecessary problem caused by bloat and overreliance on GUI's that's all too common with other Linux distros.
Robert
127 • #125 (by Kensai on 2006-10-04 09:40:44 GMT from Puerto Rico)
Fabrice, sorry for my bad expressions I though everybody was attacking Ladislav for a simple mistake, and I think it is still the case. But well we all missunderstand and we all are biased sometimes we cannot be everything to everyone.
128 • 126 (by AC on 2006-10-04 12:38:42 GMT from United States)
"There is a bit of lore saying that once you run Slackware you stick with it and you don't go back to running any other Linux distro."
A lot of Debian old-timers started with Slackware and will never go back.
129 • Slackware (by Ahmed on 2006-10-04 13:27:57 GMT from Germany)
I know I'm late but:
HOORRAAAAAAAY!!!! SLACKWARE 11 IS OUT!!!
*Bounces around the room in a fit of joy*
130 • 126 PS (by AC on 2006-10-04 13:33:38 GMT from United States)
Incidentally, you mentioned "pure Debian" along with Mandrake, Xandros, and MEPIS, yet all your criticisms of bloat and overreliance on GUIs seem to apply to them and not to Debian. You CAN use a GUI with Debian, but it's hardly required - or even encouraged. In fact, it is recommended that you start with a minimal install and build from there as you learn the system. The fact that you CAN use tasksel and start off with a system that boots to a GUI doesn't mean you HAVE to. And the only Debian specific GUI tool is Synaptic, but you can use aptitude or more basic commandline tools like apt-get if you choose.
131 • Slackware * 126 (by tom on 2006-10-04 16:37:11 GMT from United States)
Amen brother (read sister if necessary, it's just an expression).
First I also ran Zenwalk through the numbers. Out of the box it is great. I found, however, it is too unstable with frequent updates. It is easy to break Zenwalk if you do too much customization/updates.
Other problem is Zenwalk has diverged from Slackware to the point that I was starting to run into compatibility issues. This is too bad and I hope that with Slackware 11 they "return to their origins".
I have been anxiously awaiting Slackware 11 because of these issues. I have also installed 10.2 in the past.
One quick plug for Arch Linux. IMO almost everything that you have said for Slackware holds true in spades for Arch Linux. Arch Linux is i686 optimized and is ideal for my hardware. Arch also has been more stable then Zenwalk and more up to date then Slackware 10.2. Sys admin is a snap.
Speed, stability, and CLI. Add Fluxbox and dual monitors......
And on the Bloat.. Yes this bloat is nice for new Linux users who do not know what they need or how to sys admin. It is helpful to new users if it "just works" out of the box, although no OS "just works" out of the box....
But reliance of gui's is limiting because:
1. First the gui's do not always work.
2. The gui does not always give the full range of options.
3. The gui inhibits learning sys admin. Yes it is nice to not be overwhelmed on Day 1, but, IMO, you need to learn the CLI to be proficient and happy with Linux.
The advantage of CLI:
1. There is higher compatibility across distros, although a little more standardization would be nice.
2. The CLI is elegant, fast, and full featured.
After learning Linux, the bloated distros are full of "security risks" and run much slower.
IMO it is nice to have options and I for one DO NOT want my box to run like windows, chewing through my RAM and hard drive with eye candy and bloat. If that is what you want, Linux can deliver as well as any other (Lets not forget most users who tout Windows or OSX did not have, let alone know how to, install and configure the OS).
Praise for Slackware and Arch....
Debian and Ubuntu, server install only -> Fluxbox.
132 • Slackware, Zenwalk, g77 Fortran Compiler (by werner, Cayenne at 2006-10-04 17:14:07 GMT from France)
@#106: For me, the biggest (and a really BIG !) problem is that appearently with the f77/g77 GNU F77 compiler one can not get a compiling list (ie a list with line nr., source-code-line, and immediately after any possible error message.) For serious work - inclusive, error trace and debugging - this is absolutely necessary. This is the first F77 compiler what I see what dont produce such a compiler list !!
@#110: How one can go in internet with Zenwalk ? There is nothing similar like kppp, where one can type in telefon-no of the provider, user-name, pasword of the connection !!
Mandrake, I used it during years, at the time of the 9.1 - 10.1 version, but gradually it falled indecadency, inclusive its slow and 'heavy' - not only the administration itself like the Mdk control center, but also the system and running programs. For me, its dying. The future for Linux , to my opinion, is something Slackware -like.
To my opinion, the Slackware-man should not change many on his distro. But he should keep updated of each area one or two most brilliant progs (inclusive, abandon finally the 2.4 kernels). Throw out, one should f.ex. Amarok - what have steady-steady problems and is much too big for a mucis-player - and put in f.ex kmplayer and a good dvd->CD ripping program . Anyway, Slackware is and should continue to be fast; easy-to-install; transparent; easy to 'take hand' on something what dont want to work as you want; etc, and this is very important !
133 • Ladislav, admit your mistake (by JeffS on 2006-10-04 17:25:44 GMT from United States)
Ok Ladislav, so you don't like Mandriva. Fine. And criticize it all you want.
But you did state that the two bloggers were Mandriva employees. That has been proven false.
You need to admit that you either got the facts wrong, or that you knew the facts but flat out lied.
Then you took the blogger's comments out of context, seemingly deliberately misleading your readers. The bloggers have both articulately explained what their true opinions were - one that the 2.6 kernel is a moving target for distro devs (a fact), and second that Linux is a good desktop but perhaps not ready for the masses (due to hardware issues, kernel upgrades, etc). This part is debatable, but the point is well taken. But you made the blogger's opinions out to be rabidly anti-Linux, which is in fact, false. Both bloggers are major Linux fans, users, developers.
But the fact remains, obviously because you don't like Mandriva, you made a factually incorrect statement (that the bloggers were Mandriva employees), and you completely took their blogs out of context, which was an attempt to mislead.
It's okay to have provocative opinions, to "stir the pot". But in so doing, please try to avoid FUD, sensationalism, or flat out slander.
Disclaimer: I like Mandriva, but it is not my preferred distro - Mepis and PCLinuxOS are my current favs.
134 • my previous post (by werner, cayenne on 2006-10-04 17:25:47 GMT from France)
more better: Slackware should throw out everything what have to do with xine, kaffeine etc in favor to kmplayer whats much better and faster
135 • g77 is no more _the_ GNU compiler (by d brion on 2006-10-04 18:12:34 GMT from France)
Bonjour Werner,
, Officially, it is gfortran (just google it); g77 is no more maintained, I fear.
g95 and gfortran can compile g77 code, g95 being (IMVHO)
closer to norms (no Cray pointers) and binary unformatted record lengths are compatible with g77... and gfortran being more comfortable to experts(Cray pointers, any binary unformatted records length are 64 bits ..) and more official..
As far as it was tried, Both work fine, perhaps a little slowly for g95?.
. I can live (badly) without line numbers, but perhaps you should look at g95 site for g95 future announce (end of "g95 status" onglet) and glueing g95 with Eclipse (under Windows, I think, it seems ressource greedy): Photran, or using scite http://www.g95.org/docs.html{#photran, resp. #scite}. Perhaps, ther is some hope (Fortran 90 compilers can compile any F77 code if it is standard). For further discussion (if needed, the g95 site is very interesting & should suffice), I give you my phone number in Paris (xx45567231).
I do not know it intersts anyone else in this page (20% of them prefer haressing 2 lucid experts, one of of which spent all his nite answering...)
By the way: Fortran's death has been announced ...twenty (20) years ago; last year one free compiler went into coma, 2 were born. Il y a des morts qui se portent tres bien .. You should keep zen about Mandriva's fate .
136 • JeffS (by SimoneDice on 2006-10-04 18:55:51 GMT from United States)
JeffS, give it a rest.
137 • f77 (by werner, from Cayenne on 2006-10-04 20:07:12 GMT from France)
@#135 My problem is that I have about 100 f77 progs with about some thousand of lines, and I dont want to reprogramm all this, nor I dont get them more adequadely treated if I change something -- because of that problem of the line numbers ... Here, GNU should put in this function.
What perhaps is dying is Debian and Mandrake, but I think not yet Fortran, much less Slackware :)
138 • Re 128 & 130 - Slackware vs. debian (by rglk on 2006-10-04 20:35:35 GMT from United States)
You made some valid points about Debian. For me, the question over the past year has been: Coming from Windows-like bloatware Linux distros such as most of the top 10 or 15 on the DW hit list, should I transition toward straight Debian or toward Slackware?
I presently run nine different Linux distros on my Linux hard drives, and I frequently switch between them, although much of the time I run Xandros 4 which I think is the easiest to use and most polished distro presently available for commonplace desktop computing tasks. Aside from these I have a stack of Linux live CD's more than a foot tall (some 100-150, I'd guess) plus about a dozen Linux distros installed on USB thumbdrives, all of which I've put through their paces. Lately, I've grown rather tired of this needless proliferation of distros and of all the hype here on Distrowatch and elsewhere that greatly exaggerates what really are minor differences between these distros.
The majority of them, as I said, are going in the same direction as Windows Vista and MacOS X, toward becoming appliances like refrigerators and cars, running with some kind of a universal graphical user interface that completely obliterates the specifics of the OS underneath it.
These kinds of Linux distros may be fine for consumer computing but they really aren't suited to genuine Linux computing, i.e. learning Linux, understanding Linux, using Linux proper, having fun with Linux.
I've always had the highest regard for Debian, and was convinced that straight Debian is where I would ultimately end up. I've installed standard Debian sarge with both KDE and Gnome (via Debianpure, now called GenieOS, and also via Zenlinux), and played around with it extensively.
At this time, however, I'm leaning more toward Slackware (or Arch Linux which I've also installed). Why am I more enthusiastic about Slackware than about Debian?
Debian is a huge, sprawling project with a bewildering variety of types of distribution (sarge, etch, sid, etc.), support for two dozen different architectures, an incomprehensible security policy, 1000+ developers, rule more or less by committee, I suppose, rather than by a benevolent dictator, and reams and reams of disjointed documentation that varies anywhere between being up to date and being totally obsolete.
I was hoping that Martin Krafft's book entitled "Debian System" would save me from that dismal state of the Debian documentation. It looks like an authoritative treatment of Debian that may serve as a useful reference. It's reasonably well written, and the author seems to be technically competent. However, I've gone through several chapters of this book (some 150 pages), and I'm not looking forward toward having to read any more of this ponderous tome.
Where else can I get info and help on Debian? The main forum is the "Debian User" mail list which I read and post to via Gmane. The traffic there is so voluminous that queries often get drowned and are not read or responded to after a day or two. Of course, there are other Debian forums, and you can probably stitch together a personal Debian support system from reading multiple sources of help.
Now, Slackware's documentation basically consists of the "Slackbook", "Slacker's Bible" and one or two other compilations plus a number of short Readme's written by P.V. Most of this documentation is succint, very well written and eminently manageable. You know that after reading a few hundred pages of this, you've gained a pretty good overview of the entire Slackware distribution. For anything beyond that, you go to the manpages and the info system. With Debian, I see the prospect of having to go through thousands of pages of Howto's etc. of highly variable quality, level of detail and topicality. Not a very enticing prospect.
Slackware has two or three user forums that one can go to for help. Overall the volume of traffic there is a great deal less than for Debian. In fact, perhaps it's a little too thin for my taste; I'd like to see a few more friendly Slackware gurus in continual attendance there.
Slackware is essentially the work of one man, Patrick Volkerding, and it does have the feel of having been crafted by one hand that's been doing nothing else but perfecting this distro over the past thirteen years. It's relatively simple, lean and comprehensible. One gets the sense that with a finite amount of effort one could get to understand and administer Slackware really well, and that the road to such mastery would be fun. I don't get that sense with Debian.
Debian's package management is widely considered to be the best in Linux. Nevertheless, one constantly worries that unwanted dependencies may break the system. Is it necessary at all to manage dependencies, or is this just an unneeded complication?
Slackware doesn't explicitly satisfy dependencies at all, so I understand. It comes in just one standard distribution. If you do a full install of Slackware you get all the packages that officially comprise the distro (minus a few that are in the "extra" section). Supposedly they are guaranteed to work well together. You can install additional packages as tarballs from unofficial repositories (principally, there seems to be just one, i.e. Linuxpackages). If they don't work, the software simply won't run but it won't break your system; at least that's what my understanding is.
So far I've installed 15 packages from Linuxpackages and five from other sites, and compiled and installed four additional ones from source, on top of the full standard Slack 11 install, without any explicit dependencies checking. All of them except for two worked, and none of them seem to have damaged my basic installation. The packages from Linuxpackages were packages made for Slack 10.2 with a 2.4.x kernel, and they're now running in Slack 11 on a 2.6.17-SMP kernel!
As I said, I admire Debian greatly but with my personal preference for a relatively simple, comprehensible, manageable, lean and fast, non-bloated Linux distro with good supporting documentation and adequate user help, I prefer Slackware at this time. Of course, I may change my mind when the new Debian comes out in a few months time.
My advice to others with similar preferences: Check out Slack 11, don't stumble over the tedious installer and don't buy into the myth that Slackware is a geek distro that requires endless configuration and lots of Linux knowledge. In many ways, on my system and in my hands, Slack 11 was actually easier to set up than the champions of user-friendliness such as Xandros, MEPIS, Ubuntu, etc. You'll be rewarded with a well-crafted, non-buggy, fast and good-looking distro (e.g. with KDE 3.5) that's a delight to use. And perhaps you can stop reading DW, always salivating for something better.
Robert
139 • f77 (by werner, from Cayenne on 2006-10-04 23:30:52 GMT from France)
@#135 My problem is that I have about 100 f77 progs with about some thousand of lines, and I dont want to reprogramm all this, nor I dont get them more adequadely treated if I change something -- because of that problem of the line numbers ... Here, GNU should put in this function.
What perhaps is dying is Debian and Mandrake, but I think not yet Fortran, much less Slackware :)
140 • Slackware Linux, Package Dependency Sistem (by werner, Cayenne at 2006-10-05 00:07:52 GMT from France)
We use and prise Slackware, but in order to warrant its continued good state, we should also critize whats not good on it (although this is few)
One thing is, that in really each area should have at least one good program, what it fills out. F.ex., in the midi area, kmplayer, and for ripping, acidrip.
Also, for all desktop aplications. I know that many firmas dont like Linux because there had nothing like MS Money, inclusive online banking. Now we have aqbanking. One prog like this can mean the breakin of Linux in that whole area. Next would be one tv program, and a free-telefone prog like skype. With these few things, would also be warranted the desktop hability of Linux.
Another problem is the dependencies. Meself its not very disturbing. On the other side, one can easily do a very good compromiss.
The correct direction is something like synaptic or slapt-get. However, a big problem on this IN ALL DISTROS (also on the Mandriva Packet Manager) is, that these progs are too stupid to create an own packaglist.cz etc. to a given repository [what also make it impossible to use an directory on your own hd with downloaded .rpm , .tgz etc files]. That should be repared, so that effectively one can use ANY ftp or local repository for download/upgrade.
Then the next, w.r.t. Slackware, is, that tp the most significant progs, the packagers provida also Megapack's, which contain REALLY EVERYTHING what the prog need to run beside of the official Slackware 'current' installation (to keep actual the 'current' - also possible with slapt-get - should be the responsibility of each user).
Then, to each 'big' program, one put simply the repository of its Megapack for download - and slapt-get automatically will download from it only these files which are still not installed on the computer (or of which only old versions are instaled).
This, according my opinion, would be the most best solution and compromiss - formally without need to observe dependencies.
Some packagers (like slacky.it) already make such megapacks to important progs. However, this should be more systematical (for more smaller progs, too), and as explained synaptics or at least slapt-get should be corrected that it downloads from any ftp or local directory and skip such progs inside repositories/megapacks/directories which are already installed. :)
141 • 135 (by AC on 2006-10-05 00:33:31 GMT from United States)
Your points about documentation and forums are well taken. Personally, I haven't had a problem, but then I also enjoyed Kraft's book and actually found it an enjoyable read. The Debian GNU/Linux Bible may be closer to what you want.
Just to be clear: if you prefer Slackware, that's great. but your original post mentioned Debian while its complaints (bloat, GUI reliance) didn't apply to Debian. So my point was to correct that, not to say that you shouldn't prefer Slackware for whatever reason. And it simply isn't true that once you go Slack, you never go back.
I do want to address one thing from your latest post however: "(O)ne constantly worries that unwanted dependencies may break the system." Debian stable is tested quite thoroughly and Debian policy is clear on this sort of thing. Yes, one can run into problems pinning and such, but that's not a problem with managing dependencies, per se. And I've never had the problems "break the system", just leave the package manager in a state that needs to be corrected. This "break the system" stuff really sounds like Slackware FUD.
And the solution of doing the full Slackware install to avoid dependency issues strikes me as quite contrary to your concerns about "bloat". It's not even the "Slack Way", as I recall it. When I used Slackware (and it's been awhile, I happily admit), we chose from sets of packages grouped by purpose, not unlike Debian's tasksel, which gave us a pretty lean system with just what we needed. Or we installed packages individually for even more control. Yes, we had to read up on dependencies, but this taught us more about how the system was organized, how libraries were related, etc. Definitely educational. And complete control, which is what Slack was about.
But then, I probably just sound like an old fuddy duddy! ;-)
142 • 141 (by AC on 2006-10-05 00:43:00 GMT from United States)
141 should be addressed to 138 and to robert
143 • Rants and Raves: Slackware 11.0 (by Fritz on 2006-10-05 01:34:07 GMT from United States)
While I waste away a few minutes, I install Slackware 11.0 . I chose to do a complete reinstall over 10.2 because I'm very retentive. Now that it's up and running, I feel like a virgin priest: my faoth renewed and yet nothing "changed". Patrick and Team, the wait was worth the release. Unlike most distributions, I appreciate your "get it right the first time versus get it OK and out the door [we'll fix the bugs later]" thology.
Kudos from a lng-term user. I think speak for at least most of the user community when I say that we appreciate your attention to detail and obsessive manner as it, thus far, as it appears thus far, to work flawlessly.
Thank you!
Fritz
144 • Re. 121 & 132 (by UZ64 on 2006-10-05 02:11:13 GMT from United States)
"> Still, Windows can be used securely with a few freeware applications and a little commonsense.
I disagree. Windows is so full of holes, and it's highly targetted. It's a terrible combination. But then again I don't really feel safe on Linux, at least without running SELinux."
It is definetly possible to have a secure Windows XP installation - I can confirm that. All it takes is a good hardware firewall, a third-party gecko-based browser or Opera, and of course common sense. If you don't do anything stupid, and you use a hardware firewall, you shouldn't even really need any anti-virus, anti-spyware, or personal firewall programs - which greatly increases the overall speed of the OS (as long as you defrag regularly) and frees up a hell of a lot of memory for other tasks.
In all the years I've run WinXP Pro, I have yet to run into a virus. Hell, I don't recall a single virus since I've been using Windows, period - which was Windows 95. One trojan, back on Win9x, but that was so far back I barely even remember. Spyware is quite rare also. Besides - Symantec's and McAfee's "security" programs are about as hazardous to the performance of a Windows machine as spyware and viruses in the first place. They're the last programs I'd ever install - even on a Windows machine. Thinking of the pure sluggishness of a Windows setup "armed" with these apps is nauseating.
"@#110: How one can go in internet with Zenwalk ? There is nothing similar like kppp, where one can type in telefon-no of the provider, user-name, pasword of the connection !!"
You *still* use a dial-up connection to the Internet? Sitting here with a plain face, I don't know if I should just start laughing or attempt to give a serious answer.
145 • Re #141 - Slackware vs. Debian (by rglk on 2006-10-05 04:51:25 GMT from United States)
AC wrote: "I do want to address one thing from your latest post however: "(O)ne constantly worries that unwanted dependencies may break the system." Debian stable is tested quite thoroughly and Debian policy is clear on this sort of thing. Yes, one can run into problems pinning and such, but that's not a problem with managing dependencies, per se. And I've never had the problems "break the system", just leave the package manager in a state that needs to be corrected. This "break the system" stuff really sounds like Slackware FUD."
It certainly isn't Slackware FUD. I've been with Slackware only for the shortest length of time, and that's not where I've heard it. I've not infrequently heard it in the Xandros user forum where you're advised to stay with the (rather limited) Xandros repository of packages that have been checked very carefully by Xandros or certainly within the bounds of the standard Debian Sarge repository on the Xandros servers that Xandros themselves call the "Debian unsupported site". If you add any additional repositories to these, you better pin the system or else you're asking for trouble, you're advised. I've read posts by Xandros users who claim to have "broken the system", meaning that by carelessly installing mismatched Debian packages they introduced instabilities into the system that they could only rectify by completely reinstalling the OS.
As to myself, without pinning my Xandros system, I've installed many, many additional packages (certainly more than 100) from the standard Debian repository (Xandros' "Debian unsupported site") but never from any other repositories. Following such a conservative policy, I've never run into dependency problems with Xandros and never "broken my system". But I did acquire an attitude of wariness about Linux distros that apply mechanisms of dependency checking, even about Debian's apt-get which is generally highly regarded. The situation seem to be worse with distros that rely on rpm, where one constantly hears talk about perishing in "dependency hell".
I've heard the argument that dependency checking can be a two-sided sword, and a distro like Slackware may actually practice a virtue in dispensing with dependency checking. I have to find out what's involved in this with Slackware and what hazards, if any, are introduced by this policy in Slackware.
You're right, a Debian install can be anything you want it to be, from the so-called base install (around 90 MB?) through the mini-installs based on the new Xfce, Gnome and KDE live CD's (200-350 MB) to a huge KDE/Gnome/Fluxbox/WM/IceWM/etc. install that can amount to 3-4 GB. I'd installed Debian Sarge via Debianpure and Zen Linux, and those were hefty installs.
To sum up: Slack 11 - I'm just lovin' it! :-)
Robert
146 • 145 (by AC on 2006-10-05 05:47:23 GMT from United States)
"It certainly isn't Slackware FUD...I've not infrequently heard it in the Xandros user forum where you're advised to stay with the (rather limited) Xandros repository of packages that have been checked very carefully by Xandros or certainly within the bounds of the standard Debian Sarge repository on the Xandros servers that Xandros themselves call the "Debian unsupported site".
Thanks for that clarification. I stand corrected. Perhaps it's more like Xandros FUD, though I suppose a lot of Debian derivatives follow this line and perhaps they're right, if they've customized things in ways that break Debian compatibility. And, of course, it is possible that a Xandros user might feel the need to resort to reinstalling the whole system.
I certainly wouldn't judge Debian or dependency checking generally on that basis, however.
147 • #139, there is a nice fortran site (by d brion on 2006-10-05 07:16:21 GMT from France)
even if connection are bad in Guyanna, you should read carefully : -what I wrote and the site of g95 (it properly handles line numbering in compile error messages since 2006/06/12; text before and after is interesting, too; AFAIK, real time error handling is very nice, too. Google gfortan, too: you have two better compilers than g77 (if your softs cann't stand a change of a compiler, what use will they be within say, 3(0) years?
This site is not Fortran watch (nor lynch watch).
148 • Zenwalk (kppp), f77 (by werner, Cayenne on 2006-10-05 14:35:44 GMT from France)
@#144 my whole internet is hanging on my serial fax 56k modem, inclusive my sites, forums, e-mail-services etc etc (www.monkey.is-a-geek.net; www.genocidefrenchguyana.homeunix.com and others). Thus, when Zenwalk dont support this, then its useless for me :(
#147 g77 I mencioned only in response of another post, however, g77 may perhaps handle correctly run-time-errors, but NOT provide optionally a compiler list file with the line no, source lines, and when there are compiler errors immediately after each line. When you think different -- thank you for your telephone, but for the miserable 381 Euro p.m. what CAF pais me RMI I cannot pay telefon cards, its sufficient you write me with what compiling option I get such a list file.
149 • line numbers in fortran (by dbrion on 2006-10-05 15:16:38 GMT from France)
I write about g95 (G, 9, 5) and gfortran, both successors of g77
You have at least the line with errors (you can search for it with any text editor).
To have lines numbered, any awk script can do it. For errors, you should _remove_ them....
Here is an extract of g95 home site I recommend you for the 3rd time.
Good luck
Pls, read it _to_the_end, (we ennoy other ppl).
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 12
Hani Ibrahim pointed out that DECIMAL= tags weren't being honored in data transfer statements. Got that fixed now.
John Harper pointed out that the DP and DC format descriptors weren't working either. Got these fixed too.
Roland Schilling forwarded a thread from comp-fortran-90 where the discussion centered around a scalar component of an array of derived types. The problem was a little obscure, but the fix was pretty easy.
Doug Cox has built some new windows builds.
I've made some changes to g95's location-pointer in error messages. In a lot of instances, an error message would point to the character after some name being pointed at. I'm trying to switch things to the start of the name. The old method could cause confusion in some cases. For example:
andy@fulcrum:~/g95/g95 % cat tst.f90
implicit none
call foo(1,m,2)
end
andy@fulcrum:~/g95/g95 % g95 -c tst.f90
In file tst.f90:5
call foo(1,m,2)
1
Error: Symbol 'm' at (1) has no IMPLICIT type
andy@fulcrum:~/g95/g95 %
If something was wrong with the actual argument syntax, it could be unclear which argument was being pointed to. The message is now:
In file tst.f90:5
call foo(1,m,2)
1
Error: Symbol 'm' at (1) has no IMPLICIT type
andy@fulcrum:~/g95/g95 %
I've tried to fix this sort of thing for the most common error messages, but I've probably missed some other less common cases. If you find a mispointed error or warning, please let me know about it.
150 • f77 (by werner, Cayenne on 2006-10-05 15:44:04 GMT from France)
Im downloading g95 from that side, I hope until next week its ready, then I try it and report if its good or not :)
151 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-10-05 18:41:51 GMT from United States)
#144:
> It is definetly possible to have a secure Windows XP installation - I can confirm that.
You are confusing secure with uncompromised. They are not the same.
Like yours, my Windows PC's have not been compromised that I know of. The machines are behind a firewall and have been locked down by doing a whole list of things (plus I only access the internet with normal user accounts). But after seeing so many Windows machines compromised, I feel like I'm pushing my luck running Windows.
Also the following leaves a bad flavor in my mouth: I just switched my BIOS settings from IDE to AHCI in order to take advantage of command queueing. Well Windows blue screens which is what I kind of expected because I don't know of any way to install the AHCI drivers. So I changed the settings back to IDE. Now Windows wants me to re-activate!
152 • Where is the puppy spam (by Andrew on 2006-10-05 20:17:17 GMT from Canada)
where has all the spam gone, I was starting to like it
153 • Puppy (by JAG on 2006-10-05 23:18:25 GMT from United States)
RE 152 (Here you go!)
Has everyone tried out puppy yet...?
current ver. = 2.10
http://puppylinux.org/user/viewpage.php?page_id=1
http://pupweb.org/
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyLinuxMainPage
http://tmxxine.com/fb/
woof woof...
154 • package... (by JAG on 2006-10-05 23:24:15 GMT from United States)
Hey Ladislav...How's it going...
I came across another package that seems pretty cool!
How about also tracking twinklephone...?
http://www.twinklephone.com/
155 • Re 151 (by UZ64 on 2006-10-06 00:58:49 GMT from United States)
"You are confusing secure with uncompromised. They are not the same."
I disagree with this statement; if my machine wasn't "secure," it already *would* have been compromized by now. The two - security and compromized - go hand-in-hand. With an always-on cable connection 24/7, if it wasn't secure someone would've nuked it a long, long time ago. As of lately, I cranked my security up a notch by simply running Linux. But that doesn't mean it wasn't secure in the first place.
I honestly can trust my current setup, even running Windows; it's never failed me once. With no open ports and smart browsing, and of course regular security updates, the security is ramped up. "Secure" is a relative term though; one browser or OS or other app could be labeled "secure" just as another in its class, but one may be more secure than the other. That doesn't mean one's *not* secure, though.
156 • Ichthux - More than Kubuntu for Christians (by a Christian Linux User on 2006-10-06 02:58:52 GMT from United States)
Can we please add Ichthux to Distowatch? This is a solid Kubuntu based distro geared towards the Christian community and the developers have actually been at their work longer then Ubuntu CE has even been a concept. Ubuntu CE is great, but so is Ichthux! And the perception to some may be that one has received a listing over the other due to paid advertising. And I know from past discussions on how certain distros are listed and may boost their numbers that Ladislav is a fair man and does not mean for this to be perceived even if it is incorrect. Take a look at their site and try the distro for yourself and then please consider. There is enough room for at least these two distros. And I believe there will be staying power.... at least for Ichthux since they were at this for a while before ever really becoming public. Thanks.
157 • RE: 156 Ichthux (by ladislav on 2006-10-06 04:38:01 GMT from Taiwan)
Your wish has been granted:
http://distrowatch.com/ichthux
;-)
158 • More than Kubuntu for Christians (by a Christian Linux User on 2006-10-06 15:07:08 GMT from United States)
Thank you Ladislav! You're the man!
159 • Three More in the Database (by Ariszló on 2006-10-07 07:20:03 GMT from Hungary)
A week ago or so, there were 354 distributions listed at
http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity
but now there are 357.
I know about Bluewhite64 and Ichthux but what is the third recently added distribution?
160 • RE: 159 Three More in the Database (by ladislav on 2006-10-07 07:55:12 GMT from Taiwan)
No new distribution was added - I only changed the status of Shark Linux from "Dormant" to "Active" after the developers emailed me to say that they have a new web site and are still working on the distro. It's now called Shark OS: http://www.sharkos.org/.
161 • Perhaps a little bash scripting would be sufficient with #150 (by dbrion on 2006-10-07 14:40:01 GMT from France)
Werner,
try :
g95 myprog.f 2>saida-errors.lis # no blanks after 2
head (less or whateever You want) saida-errors.lis
( 1 rst error messages are relevant, others not...) this works with gcc/g77, f2c, too, I feel.( I sometimes forget doing that) You have to correct syntax errors one after the other (I think IdEs do the same thing, on a nice -ressource consuming?- way; by the way, there 3 IDEs on g95's site, I only remembered 2; add EMACS).
If it wirks, just mail me, I answer on WE.
Sorry for my mispellings
162 • Dyne 2.2 is out !!! (by Caraibes on 2006-10-07 15:45:56 GMT from Dominican Republic)
Hey, for all the Rastasoft lovers out there, Dyne 2.2 is out !!!
163 • PCLinuxOS (by Anonymous on 2006-10-07 21:11:09 GMT from United States)
I just installed the most recent PCLinuxOS. I am very impressed with it for these reasons:
most everything just works, including flash, etc.
it looks nice
I timed it and it boots as fast as Kanotix. Apps launch the same speed as Kanotix too.
Things I don't like:
I wish they would switch to debian packages.
I see no signs that hibernate (suspend2) works. kpowersave is not even in their repository. I tried to compile it, but the most recent version of kpowersave depends on newer versions of libraries which aren't in PCLinuxOS. I tried compiling an older version of kpowersave, but I got errors regarding m4 that I couldn't figure out.
164 • Additional package information (by Tom Cohagan on 2006-10-08 00:16:30 GMT from United States)
It would be helpful, to me at least, to include infomation as to what bootloader is used by a distribution and if one is given the option of installing the bootloader to the root partition instead of the mbr.
165 • 157 • RE: 156 Ichthux (by ladislav etc) (by Agnostic on 2006-10-08 08:41:45 GMT from Australia)
ladislav and Christian Linux User
Re: Your wish has been granted: http://distrowatch.com/ichthux
I wish we were able to avoid any possible religious antagonism of the various other religions by having some thing for every one - as opposed to the Chrstian religious community being the only one premoting their religion. Yes I know you are going to say that 'any one' can produce one for their own religion if the want to, but in the modern days current affaires with the realtime religious conflict happing arround the world. The promotion of one flavour of religion only would seem to me to just inflaim the situation (no matter how innocent the developers and premoters may have intended their distro to be)
Long live religious tollerance and not religious exclusiveness
166 • religion and distros (by werner, cayenne on 2006-10-08 15:18:16 GMT from France)
I think its similarly inadequade to connect certain Linux distros with religions as to would connect them with certain races, people/countries, places, or other criterions.
In the (most) religion(s) there's everything forbidden what was not expressively (and originally established as) permitted; thus, in consequence, in the daily live - in opposite - is everything permitted whats not expressively forbidden (inclusive what was not forbidden by the religions in its original state/amount of forbids who a posteriori cannot be increased more). In no religion, originally was wroten that it would be forbidden to use Linux, and these original forbiddenings cannot be increased afterwards, so that for all religious people - no matter what kind - its permitted to use Linux.
167 • Re: religion and distros (by Anonymous on 2006-10-09 00:34:11 GMT from United States)
I think the religious linux distributions are sad, and I wish they would go away. Religions are rooted in ignorance and by their very nature serve to divide. Linux, on the other hand, is grounded in computer science, and science is a struggle against ignorance, not a veiled attempt to maintain ignorance.
I highly recommend watching Richard Dawkins "The Virus of Faith" which shows the damage that religion causes:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5752208690443739173
*sarcastic mode on*
Can't for EndTime Linux, Rapture Edition 2008.
168 • No subject (by 1c3d0g on 2006-10-09 07:48:50 GMT from Aruba)
#167: It's your hatred and ignorance which is unwanted here in the first place. You are the virus, so just go away, little freak.
169 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-10-09 10:06:37 GMT from United States)
#168:
I suspect that you feel that way about the hundreds of millions of people which don't subscribe to your particular brand of religion or your particular god. It's quite interesting that I only stated the truth, but you have gotten very hostile and childish. To me you have just demonstrated what a bad idea religious Linux distros are. :-)
Number of Comments: 169
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