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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • BSD (by Roy Stefanussen on 2006-08-14 12:14:09 GMT from Cincinnati, United States)
Maybe it's time for me to look closer at BSD.
2 • Robbins (by Kim on 2006-08-14 12:44:00 GMT from Tranbjerg, Denmark)
Welcome back Daniel.
Once you try Gentoo you can't live without it :)
3 • Lost causes (by Xavier on 2006-08-14 12:58:06 GMT from , United Kingdom)
Whatever happened to Luit? It was rather nice. It was referred to a couple of days ago on the Puppy Forum by a person from that sub-continent.
4 • Robbins (by d00m3d on 2006-08-14 13:41:59 GMT from Beijing, China)
Emerged from the dark evil side, great! :)
5 • The greatest news - This is Slackware 11 RC1 (by Victor on 2006-08-14 13:49:59 GMT from Dobrich, Bulgaria)
It is coming, guys! The real linux ;]
6 • Saint-Pierre and Miquelon (by Dennis on 2006-08-14 13:52:12 GMT from , United States)
Saint-Pierre and Miquelon are in Central America? Since they are north of the USA (except Alaska) that's rather a stretch.
7 • New BSD Projects (by Treeforth Tremulatum III on 2006-08-14 14:04:27 GMT from Savannah, United States)
As an avid BSD user, I'm not quite sure what to make of all these new projects based on BSD. On the one hand it's great to see so much interest in BSD, but on the other hand, the last thing we need is the creation of lots of pointless vanity projects like in the Linux world, merely duplicating the efforts of the big boys and diluting the available talent.
However, it seems like a couple of the projects announced on this page today do have a unique purpose and have the potential to develop into solid and useful products.
MidnightBSD sounds like it might be very interesting, since they state that they're making an actual fork of FreeBSD, specifically aimed at the desktop user and with a custom window manager and graphical admin tools. This is in contrast to DesktopBSD and PC-BSD, which are both just customised versions of FreeBSD (for now, at least).
Quetzal also sounds interesting, since I'm not aware of any other live CD's based on OpenBSD, but I can certainly imagine cases where one would be useful.
It remains to be seen of course whether these projects can build up enough momentum and sustain enough interest over the longer term to remain viable. But I certainly wish them the best and am eager to see how things develop.
8 • RE: 6 Saint-Pierre and Miquelon (by ladislav on 2006-08-14 14:07:59 GMT from Taipei, Taiwan)
Well, it sounded like something that could be in Central America :-) Anyway, thanks for the pointer, I've removed it from the table.
9 • Discontinued distributions? (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-14 14:12:48 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"It's very depressing to go through these (so many broken dreams, eh...) but cleanout must be done for the living and constantly improving distros to shine and be used."
I have hardly ever entered the debate "too many distributions"
However, after buying new hardware, I realized that only SUSE fully supports everything. Of the remaining hundreds, not a single one completely fulfills my needs: either unsupported hardware or showstopper bugs.
However not even SUSE fully satisfies me: it is a terrible resources hog, and when you install it you must download hundreds of updates, especially if you are using OpenSUSE.
A wider view about personal computing in 2006: every 6/12 months your hardware becomes obsolete. But operating systems and applications miserably fail to keep the pace.
As I just said, Linux is badly disappointing me at the moment.
MS Windows s#cks as usual, although Windows Media Center is *slightly* better than the others.
There are very few doubts in my mind that Mac OS X is the best OS for personal computers at the moment. However it has its cons as well, the main ones being that Mac computers are poor value for money, especially in Europe (I know, somebody will argue that the new Mac Pro is good value for money, but because everything except for the CPUs is quite basic in the default configuration, it will cost you much more than $2,500) and that there isn't an awful lot of apps for Mac.
What to say? Unless you have old(ish) and common hardware and you are happy with it, this is not a particularly good time for the software side of personal computing (IMHO)
10 • other opinions about XFS (by Anonymous on 2006-08-14 14:24:39 GMT from Dorval, Canada)
Opinion about XFS seems to be shared by gentoo developers. According to the gentoo manual
"XFS is a filesystem with metadata journaling that is fully supported under Gentoo Linux's xfs-sources kernel. It comes with a robust feature-set and is optimized for scalability. We only recommend using this filesystem on Linux systems with high-end SCSI and/or fibre channel storage and a uninterruptible power supply. Because XFS aggressively caches in-transit data in RAM, improperly designed programs (those that don't take proper precautions when writing files to disk and there are quite a few of them) can lose a good deal of data if the system goes down unexpectedly."
Some debian users seems to have another opinion about XFS
http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/388
"Based on all testing done for this benchmark essay, XFS appears to be the most appropriate filesystem to install on a file server for home or small-business needs"
11 • Statistics about Central America (by werner on 2006-08-14 14:56:18 GMT from Chapdes-Beaufort, France)
You forget french guyana, im living there and visiting your home page about 20 times daily
12 • RE: other opinions about XFS (by Beranger on 2006-08-14 14:57:50 GMT from Bucuresti, Romania)
> "Some debian users seems to have another opinion about XFS..."
They only have _benchmarks_, which rate _performance_, not _safety_ or _reliability_.
Bare performance is one thing, losing your data is a completely different issue.
Of course you have to have backups. But you don't backup every 10 minutes, and you can't restore in 5 seconds, can you?
13 • Mexico (by warpengi on 2006-08-14 15:07:34 GMT from Calgary, Canada)
Last I heard Mexico was in North America. It does however share much in common (politically and liguistically) with the rest of Latin America and so I can't really disagree with it being listed in Central America. The Mexicans should be the ones to speak up on it if they disagree.
14 • abandoned distros (by Anonymous on 2006-08-14 15:20:10 GMT from Rancho Palos Verdes, United States)
I hate to see Womp on the list. It would bring to live old pcs with abandonware windows dvd player software. Granted the new GeeXbox does a beter job and looks nicer but I get the feeling some older hardware will be left behind again when Womp goes.
15 • Nice of Puerto Rico to be #2 in most visits (by Kensai on 2006-08-14 15:24:11 GMT from , Puerto Rico)
Mexico goes #1 with ~92K and Puerto Rico #2 with ~24K is awesome to see how Puerto Rico is so interested in Linux. Well it is more concentrated in the North of Puerto Rico since VLOS is from there, also the University of PR makes 1 flavor of Linux based on Knoppix. Which is Bioknoppix and there is another Distro from PR called Snappix based on Knoppix as well. Still I use only American, Canadian distros like Gentoo, Arch Linux, Slackware.
SInce I know the VLOS head developer and know he is the most arrogant bastard when it comes to Linux. :) So I will not support his distro.
16 • other opinions about XFS (by Anonymous on 2006-08-14 15:26:23 GMT from Dorval, Canada)
Opinion about XFS seems to be shared by gentoo developers. According to the gentoo manual
"XFS is a filesystem with metadata journaling that is fully supported under Gentoo Linux's xfs-sources kernel. It comes with a robust feature-set and is optimized for scalability. We only recommend using this filesystem on Linux systems with high-end SCSI and/or fibre channel storage and a uninterruptible power supply. Because XFS aggressively caches in-transit data in RAM, improperly designed programs (those that don't take proper precautions when writing files to disk and there are quite a few of them) can lose a good deal of data if the system goes down unexpectedly."
Some debian users seems to have another opinion about XFS
http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/388
"Based on all testing done for this benchmark essay, XFS appears to be the most appropriate filesystem to install on a file server for home or small-business needs"
17 • Re : other opinions about XFS (by Anonymous on 2006-08-14 15:35:53 GMT from Dorval, Canada)
Sorry for the second post (I reloaded the page and the message was sent another time ...)
My understanding is that the XFS issue is not a problem with XFS itself, but with the "improperly designed programs". When debian developers say that XFS is crappy, they would probably mean "XFS is not safe to use with application XYZ that is somewhat crappy".
I use XFS since it's inclusion in the kernel and I never loose any data.
18 • Cool (by 1c3d0g on 2006-08-14 15:36:09 GMT from Oranjestad, Aruba)
Finally, my daily visits to DistroWatch have paid off. :-P
In all seriousness, I'm glad that there's a lot of interest in GNU/Linux in this region. :-)
19 • MidnightBSD (by Eric on 2006-08-14 16:24:35 GMT from Sudbury, Canada)
Well, this midnight BSD project seems odd since they want to make a seperate fork of FreeBSD using a 6.1 PRERELEASE, whats wrong with the actual 6.1 release?? Their goals for the project seem like every BSD users dreams like including wireless driver integration and have a binary update system in place. Another reason why BSD users would want to assassinate these developers, becuz on their development page they state, "To clarify, this is a fork of FreeBSD. I'm not creating a distro like DesktopBSD or PC-BSD.", im not sure if any of you noticed but he referred to their BSD as a DISTRO!!!! Flavour sure, but please don't mix BSD terms in with GNU/Linux terms. Which is another why this project at the moment sucks until they gain a little bit more knowledge of what they're doing and their project scale is aslarge and unique as NetBSD/OpenBSD in comparison to FreeBSD, a very large difference for BSD fans among GUN/Linux users. So good luck MidnightBSD, your going to need it! Sorry for being so against it, but come on, just develop for FreeBSD and everybody can reap the benefits, otherwise FreeBSD users will just port the nice pretty apps into FreeBSD if they are worth while anyway, lol.
20 • Daniel Robbins..he is back (by Daniel Mery on 2006-08-14 16:30:00 GMT from Seffner, United States)
Good News for Gentoo !!!! Daniel Robbins is returning to his project.
I think Gentoo Project today needs Daniel Robbins as leader.
Welcome to your home and good luck
Regards,
Daniel Mery
21 • XFS + Freak Data Loss (by Ryan M on 2006-08-14 17:02:46 GMT from Dallas, United States)
Most of the time XFS behaves very well. But on freak occasions it completely destroys data. I had an external storage device with hundreds of FLACS. Over time I kept getting these odd errors in my dmesg. I ran an XFS check disk routine, it made a ton of horrifying fixes, and suddenly half of my FLACs were destroyed. I fortunately had another backup.
To this day I have no idea why the file system got corrupted so badly (no power outtage, no writes on my part, etc), and nobody on the XFS mailing list wanted to follow up with my bug report. In any case, throughout the last few months, there have been a lot of bad bugs found in XFS (2.6.18-rc especially!) and there is almost always a corruption thread within the XFS mailing list. All of this and now major Debian users... well. I'm changing at least one of my volumes to something other than so not all my eggs are in one basket! Too bad though, because I love XFS to death though for its fantastic efficiency in disk usage and handling of large files...
22 • distro comparisons (by engelsman on 2006-08-14 17:13:26 GMT from Bussum, Netherlands)
There's always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions
It even has Lunar, the small distro I'm currently using :-)
23 • Re: Discontinued distributions? (by gnobuddy on 2006-08-14 17:15:26 GMT from Marina Del Rey, United States)
The OP wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, after buying new hardware, I realized that only SUSE fully supports everything. Of the remaining hundreds, not a single one completely fulfills my needs: either unsupported hardware or showstopper bugs.
However not even SUSE fully satisfies me: it is a terrible resources hog, and when you install it you must download hundreds of updates, especially if you are using OpenSUSE.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've tried a *lot* of distros, and keep coming back to Gentoo. One reason is that if there is a Linux driver available for an item of hardware at all, you can usually make your Gentoo box support that hardware. You have to do everything manually, but at least you can make it work - and Gentoo has about the best documentation I've seen in the Linux world (not that that's a very strong statement - expect to do some Googling!).
As for the "automatic hardware configuration" distros, I agree with you - many do auto-configure most older hardware, but most fail here and there with unusual or newer hardware. I had endless headaches with Suse 10.0, for instance, which kept reverting my printer settings to A4 paper on every reboot, resulting in endless printing headaches, and was the slowest distro I have ever used.
-Gnobuddy
24 • No subject (by jfs on 2006-08-14 17:17:17 GMT from Tallinn, Estonia)
so how is jfs in terms of data-corruption? any links? is it usable?
25 • Re: 24 (by Kensai on 2006-08-14 17:55:32 GMT from , Puerto Rico)
I personally use reiserfs but jfs is my 2nd best option as it is a very clean filesystem and performs very very well. I recommend it.
26 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-08-14 18:04:55 GMT from Dorval, Canada)
No filesystem can protect against corruption on power outages. They can only protect against (most) corruption in the event of system crashes. If the drive was completely quiescent when the plug was pulled, you're OK; otherwise, all bets are off.
I know XFS can cause problems, see
http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/faq.html#nulls
But other FS also have problems. For exemple, I have got an unexpected power failures with Reiser3 on a machine at work. Reiser destroyed a huge number of files which were not even open at the time of incident (fortunatly I had backup for them ...).
I would really like to see a "benchmark" comparing reliability of different filesystem !
27 • Dominican Republic had a good ranking !!! (by Caraibes on 2006-08-14 19:05:50 GMT from Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic)
Hi Friends !!!
I was very happy to read the Central America hit list. If I am not wrong, we (in DR) are #4 as of real hits, which is not bad !
I am pleased to see Gnu/Linux activity in Haiti as well !
Thank you Ladislav for that interesting presentation.
I can't conclude without mentioning Mr. Antonio Perpiñan, the guru and precursor of Free Libre Open Source Software down here in DR, you'll find more info at www.abiertos.org
28 • RE: # 23 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-14 19:17:30 GMT from Roma, Italy)
Gnobuddy,
I always "wanted to like" Gentoo, but I always failed.
The manual install is terribly boring, and the GUI one is extremely unsafe.
Also, I have always found all sorts of bugs in various applications, not to mention that Portage happily messes up your system. It could well be that I have never kept Gentoo on my PCs long enough to learn, but I have heard the same story from more experienced users.
Anyway, I want to give it another go, maybe in the form of a derivative, like Sabayon Linux or VLOS.
29 • #9 (by tom at 2006-08-14 19:28:45 GMT from Helena, United States)
Anonymous Penguin:
What the heck are you running? I just built a box with reasonably new hardware and, although there are occasional problems, I can run several distro's. I assume you are running the newest/latest hardware.
In general, Linux can handle hardware as good or better then Microsoft. Don't believe me, go ahead and install Windows 2000 or XP with the newest set of hardware and try to install the drivers.
The only advantage Microsoft has is they "conspire" with hardware manufactures. Often the newest latest hardware is built to run on windows, and not just released at random. Thus the drivers are only available to Microsoft users. I avoid this hardware.
For example nvidia makes drivers for my video card. They are not opensource, however, and not as nice as the Microsoft drivers. I knew this when I purchased the card.
On reasonable hardware Linux runs fine. It sounds as if you did not do your homework prior to your purchase and bought a computer that is not Linux compatible. This is like complaining Windows will not run on your SPARC workstation. Please do due diligence prior to your purchase and compare apples to apples.
My new Linux box runs fine. Reasonable, up to date hardware, fast processor, lots of RAM, dual monitors, nice sound, etc. I currently run Arch, but run Ubuntu, Fedora 5, Zenwalk, Debian and others with no problem.
30 • RE: # 29 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-14 19:45:32 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"It sounds as if you did not do your homework prior to your purchase and bought a computer that is not Linux compatible."
To be quite honest, it wasn't primarily meant to be Linux compatible :)
I can't say more on a public forum, but you can deduct it from my post # 9.
However I don't have hardware which is out of this world, it just isn't mainstream (for Linux). Later the problem should be solved (and, as I said, SUSE already supports everything)
31 • XFS (by pinguin@home on 2006-08-14 19:54:05 GMT from Helsinki, Finland)
As fars as I know XFS happens to be the journaled filesystem that the BSD world is most interested in porting to BSDs (at least FreeBSD). If the relatively poor reliability of XFS is true, I wonder why?
Anyway, also I had troubles recently - maybe related to XFS. A game I was playing, while installing new software and upgrading my OS with apt-get, froze and I had to reboot (just trying to restart X didn't succeed). After I rebooted, surprise, surprise, Debian didn't boot anymore... :( I had just installed Debian a few days ago, and I had wanted to give XFS a try because it was told to be so fast. But what about the reliability? Isn't a journaled file system meant to cope with just that kind of problems like what I had (reboot during an update process etc.)?
32 • For Crying out loud! (by Dragonopolis on 2006-08-14 20:16:33 GMT from Houston, United States)
I hate it when people cry "there isn't a lot of apps for a OS"
If you ask me I get too many of them installed Linux Distros. Hundreds of Tools I will never use. I bet I don't even have 200 Apps that I have added to my Windows XP (partly thanks to linux). Most programs work fine on my XP ( except cd/dvd burning ouch!). I have just about every app covering every category. 1 photo, 6 media players, 3 browsers, 2 email, roughly 40 games, MS Office 2003 and OpenOffice (these really count as one each), Fax App, 2 PDF, 1 synth app, 4 anti-v/firewall. Nope I might not make to hundred.....
I have more that I downloaded but honestly. Most average users just stick to one or 2 apps in the Popular Categories and I doubt the average user downloads 50 or so tools to make windows work better.......
As a matter of fact many Linux Distros are Bloated with Apps and Tools. I like variety like the rest but I only need a couple good tools to do the job. Many times I'm doing the opposite of what I do in Windows. Instead of Adding stuff to streamline Windows I'm taking it out.
Oh well point is Apple has enough good apps both commercially and in opensource to satisfy 90% of the Average users Needs. Apple and Linux could use a push in the Gaming Area but over all there are Times were Linux is overkill.
Another Point. I see often people in Linux forums bashing the amount Software that Apple has but you never see any Linux user at all bashing Linux Distros that Streamline their Linux Distro with very little apps going for the Minimalist Approach. Hey its great. I like diversity and Competition. Apple does a great job with UI and App integration. They don't have a lot of software but they have enough "quality software" to get it done especially if you count all the quality open source apps you can run on OSX as well.
Well I'm out of here got to get back to work!
33 • RE: #32 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-14 20:33:08 GMT from Roma, Italy)
I wasn't bashing Apple in any way, just the opposite, if you care to read my posts more carefully.
Apple has plenty of apps? Maybe, but then suddenly you realize that a basic one is missing. Which is never the case in (main) Linux distributions.
34 • XFS... (by Pelle on 2006-08-14 20:38:21 GMT from Oslo, Norway)
Hi all, this is my first post ever on distrowatch. First of all, great site, thanks, I have used this page for 2-3 years, comparing distros, and finding out more about distros. Great work Ladislav Bodnar.
About XFS... I have always used ext3, without error or problems, and I have always wanted to try XFS, or reiser, but with all this talk about stability, I think I will stick with ext3, maybe try JFS, if that is still supported. Anybody with real life stability numbers on SUSE + XFS? Or should i stick with suse default reiser + ext3?
P.
35 • #26 & #31 (by Wrawrat on 2006-08-14 20:52:31 GMT from Qubec, Canada)
reiserfs and XFS are using a data writeback strategy for the journal... Only metadata is written to the journal, and it might happen after the data is actually written to the disk. Combined with the usual disk cache, a kernel panic or a power failure can wreck the data that wasn't sync'd to disk before the event.
The default strategy for ext3 is the opposite (e.g. data is written to the disk before the metadata is committed to the journal). It seems to be safer than data writeback. That said, ext3 can use the usual journaling strategy, where all data is committed to the journal before getting written on the disk. reiserfs and XFS cannot.
I am not very aware of the tolerance to filesystem-level corruption (bad inodes and the like), but I had some issues with XFS and reiserfs... Personally, I won't use anything but ext3 until the competiton is safer with outages. JFS seems great, but it's quite slow, according to the personal benchmarks I made a while ago...
36 • To complement #35 (by Wrawrat on 2006-08-14 20:56:51 GMT from Qubec, Canada)
Just a note on JFS: it was slow on my _personal_ tests, but it was quite fair on the CPU usage. I believe it could be an interesting alternative on slower machines with high CPU usage and some I/O...
37 • 30 (by tmulgrew on 2006-08-14 21:17:18 GMT from Helena, United States)
Anonymous Penguin:
"To be quite honest, it wasn't primarily meant to be Linux compatible"
Obviously your judgment of Linux is unfounded. Try a Linux compatible box before making such proclamations.
PS Try Debian or Gentoo.
38 • RE: #37 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-14 21:29:14 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"Obviously your judgment of Linux is unfounded. Try a Linux compatible box before making such proclamations.
PS Try Debian or Gentoo."
Obviously you don't know me :)
I have been a linux fan for years and I have tried virtually every distro out there.
Try Debian? LOL, that sounds quite funny to anybody who knows me, especially under different nicknames.
Yes, I like Linux, but operating systems are not a religion, so why couldn't I build a PC for a purpose other than being fully Linux compatible?
39 • Re Penguin #9 (by BigMadDrongo on 2006-08-14 21:30:12 GMT from Rochdale, United Kingdom)
--------------
There are very few doubts in my mind that Mac OS X is the best OS for personal computers at the moment.
--------------
While there are good reasons to believe that (and good reasons to disagree), declarations of Apple's divinity are currently my #1 pet hate in IT. I feel compelled to comment, but I'll restrict myself to the following.
Mac OS X is *not* an alternative to XP/Linux/BSD. Why? Because it only runs on a Mac (VMWare-related hacks aside). You're not switching your OS, you're switching your entire PC. An OS that requires you to *buy a new fricking computer* (at inflated prices!) to use it can hardly claim better hardware support than Linux.
This isn't fanboyism BTW, I'm running XP at the moment.
--------------
Unless you have old(ish) and common hardware and you are happy with it, this is not a particularly good time for the software side of personal computing (IMHO)
--------------
I disagree. This is the first time in years there's been a strong challenge and credible alternative to the monopoly. Consumer choice = good. The competition is forcing everyone to raise their game. (Well, MS are trying... heh.) It's not as if Windows has got any worse, Linux is improving by leaps and bounds (whether or not you think it's "good enough" yet), and Mac OS is great if that's your bag. I'd say it's an excellent time for PC software.
40 • 939-socket Motherboard (by IMQ on 2006-08-14 21:39:26 GMT from Decatur, United States)
Guys & gals,
I just got an AM64 CPU and a couple nVidia cards from my brother. So I am looking for a 939-socket motherboard that support nVidia SLI. I did some looking at the DFI LanParty UT NF4 SLI-DR Expert Motherboard reviews. And it seems pretty good.
Any feedback on how well it work under Linux? I am looking at some of the AMD64 distros. One of them is Ubuntu/Kubuntu AMD64.
Appreciate any feedback on successes/problems with this board. Any other motherboard recommendations are also welcomed.
41 • 38 (by tom at 2006-08-14 21:41:39 GMT from Helena, United States)
Anonymous Penguin
Build what you like. Don't complain Porsche parts don't fit your Ferrari.
The fact you built a box incompatible with Linux does not degrade Linux or make me a religious fanatic.
42 • No subject (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-14 21:58:57 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"Mac OS X is *not* an alternative to XP/Linux/BSD.....it can hardly claim better hardware support than Linux"
Were did I say that? I just said that it is a great OS, regardless of hardware support.
As to the rest of your post, I absolutely agree about Windows, it s#cks (as an OS), and I said that already. Unfortunately it is still the best supported by hardware manifacturers and by software suppliers.
Generally speaking, it seems to me that everybody is missing the real meaning of my post (#9)
This was the core:
"A wider view about personal computing in 2006: every 6/12 months your hardware becomes obsolete. But operating systems and applications miserably fail to keep the pace. "
Isn't that true? Where is software taking full advantage of 64 bit, multicore processors? Where are stable, bug free OSes? (possibly with the exception of Mac OS X)
43 • XFS / ZFS (by Tariq on 2006-08-14 22:01:36 GMT from Rochdale, United Kingdom)
I've used XFS for at least 2 years on my dell 8600 laptop - using hitachi and now seagate disks under mandriva and fedora with absolutely zero problems - including the occasional power cycle.
by the way - why not port over XFS to linux? I know its not GPL but i think its benefits are fantastic.
44 • 42 (by tom on 2006-08-14 22:46:16 GMT from Helena, United States)
Anonymous Penguin:
This is the problem. You are practicing/preaching blatant consumerism.
The fact is I am quite content NOT running the latest/greatest hardware. Once people like you throw away your "outdated" hardware, I purchase and refurbish/recycle. A "new computer", like the one I built to replace a "mission critical" box that died, will last 5-7 years, no problem. It is built on 6-12 month old technology and just slightly slower then cutting edge, but at a huge cost savings. If the box were not critical to my needs it would not have been replaced with a new box.
Please send all your 6 month old obsolete boxes to me. I will wipe the hard drive, install an OS (likely Ubuntu), and donate it to the needy/indigent in my community. I have been supplying boxes to the indigent for some time now and can give you a receipt so you may write off your donation helping you to defer the cost of your 64 bit OS X box. Supply me with contact information and I will contact you with details of the donation. I believe I can get a grant to cover the cost of shipping.
In answer to you question, "Where is software taking full advantage of 64 bit, multicore processors? ":
What do I need a 64 bit, multicore processor to do? I will concede hardware outpaces software, but what do you expect? The mass volume of available software is not going to be re-written for the newest 64 bit, multicore processors overnight.
The question you should ask is "What do I need my box to do?" Once the needs are identified, what is the optimal hardware/OS combination. It is silly to run a 64 bit, multicore processor "just because".
As far as Mac OS X you come across as quite a fanatic.
"Where are stable, bug free OSes". No OS, including Mac OS X is or will ever be bug free. Try Zenbwalk, Debian stable, Arch Linux, Fedora. All these have bugs, but they are fairly minimal. Pick one that is most bug free with you hardware. For myself, Zenwalk and Arch have been the most bug free, your results may vary.
At least with Linux when I find a bug there is the possibility of a solution. Either Google or if necessary I can (and have) write one. Try that with Microsoft or OS X.
45 • Ulteo and SymphonyOS (by Marc on 2006-08-14 23:03:15 GMT from Montral, Canada)
I have a feeling that these two projects have common goals.
Maybe they should get together ...
Dream, Dream, Dream ....
46 • JFS vs XFS ????? (by Anonymous on 2006-08-14 23:52:09 GMT from Montral, Canada)
I actually use ext3, but wanted to try XFS for my next reinstall. I am now afraid that this could be a bad idea. JFS seems interesting too. I would like to know other readers opinion about JFS reliability.
47 • XFS: No problems here. (by UltraZelda64 on 2006-08-15 00:22:50 GMT from Alliance, United States)
I've been using XFS for my / and /usr partitions ever since I switched from Windows to Zenwalk, and have yet to have any problems. I would be using XFS for my /home partition too, but decided to go with ext3 for compatibility purposes; ex., it's readable from within Windows and various Linux distros, very versatile and tried-and-true.
Personally, ext3 and XFS are the only two file systems I would use as my day-to-day file system. Though Reiser and Reiser4 aren't bad from my experience, I generally stay away from them, especially Reiser4, since I've heard quite a few bad things about it. The fact that Reiser refuses to comply with Linus' requests and then bitches that he won't include it in the Linux kernel is enough for me to pass it up.
Data loss/corruption happens no matter what the filesystem is; considering I've heard or experienced nothing before about XFS causing problems, I'll continue using it. It's damn good so far.
48 • Interesting? (by Exile on 2006-08-15 00:38:12 GMT from Pittsford, United States)
"Also don't miss Robbins's earlier post where he talks about his former job at Microsoft's Linux Lab - an interesting read."
There is absolutely nothing interesting about that blog post. No insight, understanding predictions or explanations. Just the mention of the fact that there was such a group. Not even worth the read. . .
49 • JFS is the bombtastic. (by JFSMonkey. on 2006-08-15 01:30:43 GMT from Bloomfield Hills, United States)
I know, I know. Different strokes for different folks, and because some people run different computers for different things (say, when running a RAID or SCSI system) JFS isn't always the best, but when on laptop or home computer JFS is about the absolute BESTESTNESS!
High speed, high reliability.
I made an extensive, facts-backed-up post about this on the ubuntu mailing list a while ago. (It double-functioned as a scathing attack on the beliefs that reiserfs is anywhere near good / Reiser4 is the next messiah, so it's about both.) Here it is: compiled evidence of the coolness of JFS (and the not-so-coolness of reiser). Read if interested.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2006-July/088568.html
Oh, and by the way, Anonymous Penguin, Tom had it absolutely right when he said:
"Build what you like. Don't complain Porsche parts don't fit your Ferrari.
The fact you built a box incompatible with Linux does not degrade Linux or make me a religious fanatic."
Generally, I run by the philosophy that if you don't like an OS, FS, app, etc, just don't use it. There's no point in complaining about it. And it's not like you paid them money for it... they don't owe you anything, and we don't owe you a sympathetic ear. Sad, but true. Use something else.
50 • Re #49 (by Anonymous2 on 2006-08-15 01:58:06 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
Wish there were more people with your philosophy. I am one of those people who fiddle around with Linux, trying out many distros on my older laptop. (My company is Mac-based). I read a lot, but find it quite tiresome to see the amount of MS-bashing on many Linux-related sites. I would like to extend JFSMonkey's philosophy to say that if one doesn't like Windows, get on with your life and make yourself happy with BSD or Linux. Take the time and help out in the development processes.
51 • Anonymous Penguin, (by Andy Axnot on 2006-08-15 02:14:48 GMT from Kenilworth, United States)
Anonymous Penguin, the reaction to your comments is funny. It's as if you had never posted here before, or were a known Linux basher.
Andy
52 • RE: #49 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-15 02:38:56 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"Generally, I run by the philosophy that if you don't like an OS, FS, app, etc, just don't use it. There's no point in complaining about it. And it's not like you paid them money for it... they don't owe you anything, and we don't owe you a sympathetic ear. Sad, but true. Use something else."
It is really funny that according to some, I have become anti Linux now.
Everybody failed to see the bigger picture of what I was trying to say:
"A wider view about personal computing in 2006: every 6/12 months your hardware becomes obsolete. But operating systems and applications miserably fail to keep the pace."
Mine was a complaint as they sell us hardware that is of no use with the current software. And Jo User doesn't really have a choice: he buys what the shop assistant recommends him.
Nowhere I wrote that every 6/12 months I rush to buy new hardware.
But on the other hand the future starts today. I can't remember if there was the same resistence when we moved from 16 to 32 bit, but we did eventually. Similarly we must now begin to move to 64 bit computing. It seems to me that in the OSS community I come across an attitude like: "64 bit? Why? What is the big deal?" more often than elsewhere.
But I must admit that SUSE Linux was one of the first operating system to see the 64 bit potential.
53 • RE: #51 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-15 02:42:05 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"Anonymous Penguin, the reaction to your comments is funny. It's as if you had never posted here before, or were a known Linux basher."
Thanks Andy, at least somebody knows that :)
54 • Whoops... (by JFSMonkey on 2006-08-15 02:58:39 GMT from Bloomfield Hills, United States)
Sorry about that. Comments number 9 and 30 threw me off a little. Thought were a dedicated fanboy of two OS'es and complaining about everything else.
You are pretty much right on that count... really, not enough focus on hardware is being done. Iget the feeling that this happens because most distros these days are just spinoffs of a few "core" distros (RH, FC4, SuSE, Debian, Ubuntu, Knoppix, mandrake/mandriva (but not anymore) and I'm missing half a dozen at least), and when some of those core distros don't focus enough on drivers and rather on making themselves shiny to keep up with the other big distros... it's not always good. I'm probably exaggerating distro competition here a bit, though.
As for a stable and bug free linux OS... slackware seems to have died, so forget that. :D
55 • 29 (by Darren on 2006-08-15 03:18:27 GMT from Brisbane, Australia)
I tend to agree that linux can handle hardware better than Windows.
Over the weekend, I rebuilt my Slackware 10.2 box. I didn't have to worry about installing drivers for all my hardware - although, I did update my kernel from 2.4.x to 2.6.x - but that was because I prefer the 2.6.x kernel.
Even my HDTV card works with minimal tinkering - less time than it takes for me to install the various software/drivers required for it under Windows.
It is also infinitely more stable under Linux then Windows, plus I have the added benefit of being able to record HDTV while ssh'd in remotely from work via a few simple commands.
56 • RE: #54 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-15 04:15:30 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"As for a stable and bug free linux OS... slackware seems to have died, so forget that. :D"
I hope not :)
57 • I have three customers.. (by azbaer on 2006-08-15 04:38:29 GMT from Phoenix, United States)
These customers use three different flavors,
Guess which one has NEVER broke, is always up and running, and has the owner of the company thinking about dropping the XP OS on the desktop in favor of a all linux company! come on and guess?
The OS are:
Gentoo
Slackware
Red Hat Enterprise Linux
58 • Re #57 (by rglk on 2006-08-15 04:59:45 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Well, that's obvious - slackware!
Robert
59 • Re: #11 (by reyfer on 2006-08-15 05:30:39 GMT from Caracas, Venezuela)
Hi. Last time I checked, French Guyana was in South America, not Central America.
To Ladislav: great job as always
60 • 64 bit processors (by tom on 2006-08-15 05:34:59 GMT from La Junta, United States)
I am sure this is the way of the future.
I would not invest in the technology yet as I have no immediate need and the software industry is not yet up to the 64 bit technology.
Multiple kernels, Microsoft, Linux, etc can run and make use of the technology, I believe what you are all referring to is applications. For example, your 64 bit core is irrelevant if your applications do not take advantage of the technology.
Obviously it will take time for software to catch up, and once it does my 32 bit processor will be that much more obsolete. Expecting software to be rapidly optimized is unrealistic, and no OS, Microsoft, OS X, or otherwise, offers extensive 64 bit optimized applications.
Until then, unless you have a need for a specific 64 bit optimized application there is no need to invest in the 64 bit processor.
PS Anonymous Penguin :
Your comments re: Debian and running bug free are somewhat off. You will need to choose between stability and cutting/bleeding edge. It is unrealistic to expect to run bleeding edge hardware with bleeding edge software and have a bug free OS.
Try Debian stable, slackware, Free BSD, etc on a reasonable Linux compatible platform and you will have a reasonable bug free stable platform.
If you chose to run bleeding edge (Linux) software on non-Linux compatible hardware I, for one, am not sympathetic or appreciative of complaints re: bugs.
61 • counting (by azbaer on 2006-08-15 05:51:41 GMT from Phoenix, United States)
One for slackware.
Any one else want to guess?
62 • 64 bit question (by azbaer on 2006-08-15 05:58:54 GMT from Phoenix, United States)
Go ahead ahead get a 64 bit cpu. load it up with ram.
I dont care which oS you use, with the exception of Apple. NO PC based 64 bit software, yes ther is the 64 bit Windows but everything you load will be 32 bit applications at least for the next few years.
63 • RE: #60 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-15 07:36:12 GMT from Roma, Italy)
Tom,
Bugs and unsupported hardware are two different matters.
64 • 32-bit vs. 64-bit Linux Distributions - Your opinions, please! (by linbetwin on 2006-08-15 09:10:25 GMT from Ploiesti, Romania)
Apart from flash, java, w32codecs and other issues, how would you rate 64-bit versions of Linux against the 32-bit versions?
Is it worth installing x86_64 distros on desktops used for regular tasks like office, multimedia, browsing, email, IM, games and finding workarounds for the issues above? Or is the speed difference palpable only for CPU-intensive and RAM-hungry tasks on high-end machines?
In your experience, which distros offer better 64-bit versions?
Thank you for your answers.
65 • Re: 57 • I have three customers.. (by Ariszló on 2006-08-15 11:06:28 GMT from Szeged, Hungary)
Slackware.
66 • What is Wrong With KateOS's Website? (by EmyrB on 2006-08-15 13:41:25 GMT from Potters Bar, United Kingdom)
Does anybody know? I have been trying now for several days but it just times out. They ain't out of business are they? Or is version 3 prooving to be too popular?
Anyway just thought i'd ask.
Excellent issue as always Ladislav
67 • counting (by azbaer on 2006-08-15 14:42:09 GMT from Phoenix, United States)
thats two for slackware. any more guess?
I give the answer on fridayish
68 • Re #32 (by engelsman on 2006-08-15 18:08:07 GMT from Bussum, Netherlands)
"As a matter of fact many Linux Distros are Bloated with Apps and Tools. I like variety like the rest but I only need a couple good tools to do the job."
Maybe you should try something like Lunar. You install a minimal system, and after that *you* get to choose what to add to it. It's a source distro, so it's a little slow to get started if you want a full desk top instead of a lean, mean server, but *you* are in control.
69 • 68 (by AC on 2006-08-15 18:49:18 GMT from Olympia, United States)
There are plenty of distros that allow installing a minimal base and adding what you want from there, Debian most famous among them. But obviously, someone complaining about bloated distros but continuing to try one after another isn't interested in doing the work. So I'm sure they don't want the work of compiling. They want a distro that makes the 'right" (read: satisfying their personal druthers) choices out of the box.
70 • 57 (by tom on 2006-08-15 20:12:22 GMT from Helena, United States)
OK, I'll bite.
Gentoo
71 • No subject (by AC on 2006-08-15 20:37:02 GMT from Olympia, United States)
I'm going to go with the obvious answer and say RHEL.
72 • RE: #64 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-15 20:53:14 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"Or is the speed difference palpable only for CPU-intensive and RAM-hungry tasks on high-end machines?"
I believe it is exactly like that. I would suggest at least 2 GB RAM for 64 bit computing.
"In your experience, which distros offer better 64-bit versions?"
Well, SUSE has the longest experience, but you could also try Fedora (download a re-spin: http://torrent.fedoraunity.org/), Gentoo, wait for Debian Etch to be released...
I am just downloading Slamd64, I want to try the unofficial 64 bit port of Slackware.
I am also looking forward to the release of Sabayon Linux x86-64 3.0RC2 (in a few hours)
73 • RE: #57 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-15 20:56:37 GMT from Roma, Italy)
I also believe that RHEL is the most Enterprise ready distribution.
74 • RE: #64 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-15 21:11:15 GMT from Roma, Italy)
BTW, unless you have bleeding edge hardware, you could also try CentOS, rock-solid.
75 • 64 (by tom on 2006-08-15 23:02:20 GMT from Helena, United States)
llinbetwin: Stop blatant consumerism. You should not purchase a 64 bit CPU, or any other box, without at least some analysis of your needs and budget.
"Is it worth installing x86_64 distros on desktops used for regular tasks like office, multimedia, browsing, email, IM, games and finding workarounds for the issues above? Or is the speed difference palpable only for CPU-intensive and RAM-hungry tasks on high-end machines?"
First: Define worth.
Next ask yourself, what do you use your box for?. What applications do you need to run (on a x86_64 distro)? Is the application available and 64 bit optimized? Are you willing to run any of the 64 bit distros (ie Gentoo)?
Office, multimedia, browsing, email, IM, games and finding workarounds for the issues above are likely, for the most part, 32 bit optimized at this time on the majority of distros (Just because the kernel is 64 bit optimized does not necessarily mean the apps are also optimized).
Last what is the cost of a 32 bit processor vs a 64 bit processor? Keep RAM, motherboard, etc the same (or as close as possible).
In my analysis, unless you have a specific need, it is premature to purchase a 64 bit processor. This decision is OS independent as no OS (Microsoft, OS X, Linux, BSD, etc) has extensive 64 bit optimized applications available and you can not easily make "full use" of the power of a 64 bit processor. Why not wait until a majority of applications are 64 bit optimized? When the time comes you can purchase a more powerful box, for less cost, than any box you purchase today.
76 • Thank God: End of DistroWatch Podcast (by Annoyed Podcast Listener on 2006-08-16 00:03:45 GMT from Morristown, United States)
Cry me a fucking river...boohoo...so basically the podcast is ending because Shawn Milo is starting a new business and his podcast isn't raising enough money.
Bull. The real reason that the podcast is ending is that it was poorly produced and that Shawn told an entire linux distro community to "go fuck itself". Not to mention that the podcast was never released on a consistant schedule. It would be promised on a Tuesday, come out on a Thursday, not appear on the distrowatch site until the weekend...it was total crap.
The quality of the podcast was shitty to begin with, got acceptable for a while, and then went totally downhill. I stopped listening regularly after Shawn gave up covering the entire issue of distrowatch and started asking for cash and advertisements. On a podcast about 2 months ago, he told a certain distro to "go fuck itself", and refused to read the distrowatch weekly coverage on that distro. That was the end of my listening to the podcast.
Shawn, sorry to see you go, but your podcast sucked, end of story.
77 • counting (by azbaer on 2006-08-16 00:37:47 GMT from Phoenix, United States)
Two for slack Two for RHEL one for Gentoo.
Intresting
78 • missed MirOS release (by Anonymous on 2006-08-16 11:17:06 GMT from Gonbach, Germany)
"In case any of our readers know something we don't, please speak up now."
MirOS Release #9 (released 2006-06-23)
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?m=115110448632235
http://mirbsd.org/?getting
79 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-08-16 12:01:15 GMT from Nairobi, Kenya)
# 57 • I have three customers..
“I gave my customers...guess which one is still running”
My guess is you’re going to say Gentoo - but Slackware still ROCKS, dude! Slackware is Gentoo without all the heavy lifting.
Roach Boy
80 • RE: # 57 I have three customers... (by Roach Boy on 2006-08-16 12:02:39 GMT from Nairobi, Kenya)
My guess is you’re going to say Gentoo - but Slackware still ROCKS, dude! It's like Gentoo without all the heavy lifting.
81 • RE: #75 (by linbetwin on 2006-08-16 13:15:23 GMT from Ploiesti, Romania)
llinbetwin: Stop blatant consumerism. You should not purchase a 64 bit CPU, or any other box, without at least some analysis of your needs and budget.
I bought a new PC a few months ago to replace a really old one. I chose an ASUS A8N-E + AMD ATHLON64 3000+ (939 Venice) because a reasonably powerful 32-bit processor wasn't much cheaper and because I don't expect to upgrade my hardware for at least 3 years. I don't know if that's blatant consumerism.
First: Define worth.
Speed, performance boost vs. instability, incompatibility.
82 • 81 (by tom on 2006-08-16 13:54:13 GMT from Helena, United States)
Congratulations. Nice to see you have thought out the issue and are not replacing hardware every 6 months.
83 • Counting (by azbaer on 2006-08-16 15:26:45 GMT from Phoenix, United States)
Well its all even 2 2 and 2.
a key phrase in my orginal post. "Once a month",
Slackware is great, but not really known for the desktop. Maybe the grand daddy of Linux distro's, slack does need a lot of configuration and compling.
Gentoo is also good as source based Linux, great to use to learn the interworking of linux. but once its compiled and hoprfully running it can be a real pain in maintaining, especially in a part time IT department.
The correct guess in Red HAt Enterprise Linux. I even have shown the manager/owner how to check for updates and install them. Granted it is a simple Samba, file /print and email server. but all it needs is a once a month check up. its been running for over a year. with no breakage pains everything works.
This is Not a slam against Slack or Gentoo but they are not really for a unmanned IT department in small businesses.
84 • 81 (by tom on 2006-08-16 17:49:54 GMT from Helena, United States)
linbetwin;
Sorry, just thought of this point. Generally, with CPU's, like cars, performance is proportional to cost; equal cost = performance.
With AMD the performance follows the number "3,000" and not architecture (32 bit, 64 bit, or dual core).
Like fast cars, if you want a fast CPU it will cost.
Your "reasonably powerful 32-bit processor wasn't much cheaper" likely has very similar performance to the 64 bit chip you bought. The 32 bit chip has less compatibility problems. I would have stayed with the 32 bit chip, but that's me.
85 • Podcast demise (by Ubuntex on 2006-08-16 18:14:39 GMT from Loves Park, United States)
I happened to dig Shawn's take on issues like Xandros or the like. His sentiment echoes most of the community -- most, not all.
Yes, the podcast was late on occasion, but it's a volunteer effort. Sometimes family or work takes precedence. It's not like he was pulling a paycheck from Ladislav.
I rarely hear a podcast that is well produced. Have you heard the "thing" that the UbuntuOS crowd puts out? It's totally indecipherable. It actually sounds encrypted!
I'm not sure what SM used to make the podcast, but it was better than quite a few others.
86 • 83 (by AC on 2006-08-17 09:04:55 GMT from Olympia, United States)
Yay! I got it right!
A point of contention:
"Slackware is...Maybe the grand daddy of Linux distro's."
Slackware is at most Debian's older sibling. SLS was the first distribution with a range of applications (there were a few academic sites with the Linux kernel and GNU tools and libraries available via ftp.) Pat Volkerding used it. So did Ian Murdoch. Neither was happy with it. Pat submitted lots of patches and had them ignored until finally he put them together in his own fork of SLS, Slackware. Ian instead wrote a manifesto, attracted a lot of developers, got support from the FSF, and started the Debian Project. While Ian's approach was more systematic and idealistic, Pat's was more "Just Do It!" (and both attitudes have their merit: I'm not trashing either), but both were responding to deficiencies in SLS.
87 • Newer Hardware (by Anonymous on 2006-08-17 15:46:32 GMT from Rancho Palos Verdes, United States)
My kids have a machine that is newer but the installers are all starting to make assumptions and overriding the command parameters when they see new hardware. It is getting worse and worse especially with Ubuntu and Mandriva based distros. For instance I have a old 14" monitor (non-digital) and when I key in vga=791 or screen=800x600 or NODCC it gets ignored. Only some knoppix/gentoo/fedora based distros get it right. If it is because of KDE offer me XFCE. The others try to do at a higher resolution and black screen or I get 3 jumpy screens side by side all because the video card can do it. Other times it would see newer hardware even though it can't mount it and freeze the whole install instead it should just give up and continue to use the older hardware that has been provided to it.
88 • 32-bit or 64-bit computing? (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-18 13:52:02 GMT from Roma, Italy)
Some interesting thoughts by Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4091414098.html
"No, it's not just that he sees Vista's manifest failings as giving Linux a golden window of opportunity. It's that he has studied the history of operating systems and he believes that the only time an operating system can be displaced is when its hardware platform changes underneath it. Now, and within the next year and a half, as we see the 32-bit computing world give way to the 64-bit world, this is not only the time for the Linux desktop to strike, it's probably the best opportunity Linux will get to try to displace Windows."
In fact, Linux has been doing that for a while.
SUSE, and maybe to a lesser extent, Red Hat, have a fully mature 64-bit environment.
I remember 2 or 3 years ago, when ordinary people hardly knew about 64-bit computing, friends telling me with enthusiasm of their successes with AMD 64 and SUSE.
89 • 88 (by AC on 2006-08-18 20:31:44 GMT from Olympia, United States)
And some of us, even earlier, had our successes with NetBSD and amd64
90 • # 88 Windows vs Linux (by raymond on 2006-08-19 03:25:32 GMT from Forestville, Australia)
The Windows OS is specifically designed to work with a minimum of brain exertion by a desktop user. They have worked hard to get hardware manufacturers to provide drivers that work with the OS. So it is difficult for Linux to "displace Windows". It could probably only compete with it, and at best take away some of its desktop share. Linux is improving in this regard though.
The problem with the computing industry as a whole is that it is invariably full of incompatibilities - between hardware components, and between hardware and software. It is geared towards getting the public to always upgrade to new "systems" (new hardware + new software) in order to keep the money turning over. Windows is part of this "new system" approach (e.g., each new Windows version requires more RAM and hard disk size), while Linux is more orientated towards working with older systems and making them last longer.
91 • Windows vs. Linux (by Anon Y. Mous on 2006-08-19 06:00:29 GMT from Kailua, United States)
> In general, Linux can handle hardware as good or better
> then Microsoft. Don't believe me, go ahead and install
> Windows 2000 or XP with the newest set of hardware
> and try to install the drivers.
Ain't that the truth. The Windows XP installer doesn't have drivers for SATA drives... so you if you are building a new computer, you need a floppy drive, and you need to press F6 and supply SATA drivers on a floppy. Either that or slipsteam the drivers into the XP install CD.
My friend just got a HP Pallion dv6000 laptop a few days ago (AMD Turion based). Knoppix 5.01 booted on it fine. It recognized the dual processors and the sound even worked with absolutely no tweaking. I'm amazed at the vast variety of hardware that linux live CD's will boot on.
92 • 90 (by tom on 2006-08-19 17:49:40 GMT from La Junta, United States)
Thank you. See my previous posts re: Blatant consumerism.
I agree with all your points re: Microsoft and the hardware manufactures.
93 • RE: #90 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-19 22:02:04 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"The computing industry is geared towards getting the public to always upgrade to new "systems" (new hardware + new software) in order to keep the money turning over. Windows is part of this "new system" approach (e.g., each new Windows version requires more RAM and hard disk size), while Linux is more orientated towards working with older systems and making them last longer."
That might partly be true, but if it weren't for that, we would still be using the Commodore 64, if at all.
Isn't part of the human nature to always seek improvement? Otherwise what is the difference between us and monkeys?
As to Linux being "more orientated towards working with older systems and making them last longer." that is true only for some distributions. Isn't it true that KDE 3.5 requires many more resources than older versions?
Novell recommends pretty high specs for SUSE: http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/sysreqs.html
(I can assure you that the above should be minimum requirements, especially regarding RAM: SLED 10 or openSUSE 10.1 will choke with only 512 MB RAM)
As to 64-bit and "blatant consumerism", if you already own a PC and you are happy with it, that is OK. But if you buy a 32-bit CPU in August 2006, you are investing on a technology which is on its way out and which will be obsolete in no time. Besides you aren't even saving money.
94 • 93 (by tom on 2006-08-20 00:57:31 GMT from Helena, United States)
First, Novell is NOT KDE.
Second, SUSE is bloated and needs more RAM because of it. This is not a good example of Linux making use of "old hardware".
Try Arch Linux or Debian. My applications are just fine after a "server install" on a 32 bit chip and there are more 32 bit applications then 64 bit applications. 64 bit chips are thus a long way from making 32 bit chips obsolete.
And no, keeping up with the computer industry is not what separates us from monkeys.
Again, in all seriousness, please send me all your "obsolete" computers I will refurbish them and give them to the needy. This is what I do and we could always make use of a donation and you get a tax break.
When purchasing hardware you should analyze your needs and purchase hardware and software to meet these needs.
You should NOT buy because Novell, Microsoft, IBM, DELL, etc tell you your hardware will be obsolete in a few short months.
95 • RE: #94 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-20 01:36:37 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"First, Novell is NOT KDE."
Who said that? I didn't.
"And no, keeping up with the computer industry is not what separates us from monkeys."
So we should have stayed with the Commodore 64, black and white television...No wait, radio was more than enough...or maybe even that was too much?
"When purchasing hardware you should analyze your needs and purchase hardware and software to meet these needs."
And make a purchase which you can use for a few years. Or not?
"You should NOT buy because Novell, Microsoft, IBM, DELL, etc tell you your hardware will be obsolete in a few short months."
None of the above. Something becomes obsolete when you can't buy it new any longer (that is going to happen very soon to 32-bit CPUs and mobos) and when it is no longer supported (that will take a bit longer, but not that long)
"Again, in all seriousness, please send me all your "obsolete" computers I will refurbish them and give them to the needy. This is what I do and we could always make use of a donation and you get a tax break."
Because I sell my hardware when it is still viable (after about 3 years) I can still make good money out of it. If I must help the needy I have many other ways.
96 • #93 new technology (by raymond on 2006-08-20 02:04:14 GMT from Forestville, Australia)
"Isn't part of human nature to always seek improvement?"
Yes, but in the business world there is added pressure to sell "new" replacements at a certain price, and dump "old" - especially in technology.
"As to Linux making older systems last longer. that is true only for some distributions. Isn't it true that KDE 3.5 requires many more resources than older versions?"
Yes, newer technology needs newer resources. But if Linux works well with a broader range of hardware why not really sell that point and get Linux onto older computers - like Xandros is trying to do after Microsoft dropped support for Win98. That way Linux would not be directly competing against Microsoft, but kind of subverting them.
I think that governments should force hardware vendors to provide drivers for all popular OSs (Windows, Unix, Linux, BSD, Solaris, etc.). This would make life a lot easier for the public.
97 • RE: #96 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-20 03:21:32 GMT from Roma, Italy)
I like what you say. Unlike others, you have read and understood.
98 • Turks & Caicos (by Jeff C on 2006-08-20 04:15:15 GMT from , United States)
I hate to burst your bubble on countries that visit DistroWatch but it is not true that no one from Turks & Caicos has visited in the last seven months. I regularly check in from Providenciales, Turks & Caicos as do a few others I know.
I think the logic you're using to confirm source IPs may be flawed. I can certainly share with you the ranges in use in the country.
-Jeff
99 • # 93 (by Anonymous on 2006-08-20 12:55:33 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"Otherwise what is the difference between us and monkeys?"
Monkeys are smarter then us!
:-)
100 • # 94 (by Anonymous on 2006-08-20 13:02:21 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"When purchasing hardware you should analyze your needs and purchase hardware and software to meet these needs.
You should NOT buy because Novell, Microsoft, IBM, DELL, etc tell you your hardware will be obsolete in a few short months."
Thats Right!
I'm running Sarge on an Athlon 1200 with 256M ram, and for email and web
and sometimes open an PPS, XLS or DOC it is pretty good.
101 • # 96 (by Anonymous on 2006-08-20 13:06:18 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"I think that governments should force hardware vendors to provide drivers for all popular OSs (Windows, Unix, Linux, BSD, Solaris, etc.). This would make life a lot easier for the public."
Seriously? Isn't this fascism or comunism?!
:-)
102 • 96 & 101 (by AC on 2006-08-21 01:39:23 GMT from Olympia, United States)
"I think that governments should force hardware vendors to provide drivers for all popular OSs (Windows, Unix, Linux, BSD, Solaris, etc.). This would make life a lot easier for the public."
Seriously? Isn't this fascism or comunism?!
:-)
Not necessarily. Perhaps it would be merely (over-reaching?) consumer regualatory-ism-cum-socialism.
103 • RE: #81 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-21 01:45:10 GMT from Roma, Italy)
And BTW:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1366603
If spending $59.97 for a CPU is "blatant consumerism"...
104 • #101 (by raymond on 2006-08-21 04:33:55 GMT from Forestville, Australia)
How about "computerism".
105 • 103 (by tom on 2006-08-21 05:54:40 GMT from La Junta, United States)
Spending $59.97 for a 64 bit CPU is not consumerism.
I am sure it's performance is almost equal to a $59.97 32 bit CPU.
Consumerism is buying any computer, 64 bit or not, without an analysis of your needs, when you already own (by your own admission) a relatively new, perfectly functional 32 bit box, because Novell, Microsoft, IBM, DELL, etc tell you your hardware will be obsolete in a few short months.
What are your reasons to buy a new 64 bit CPU? So you feel superior to monkeys? You have not named a single application you either need or use for a 64-bit CPU. You do complain about a lack of 64 bit optimized applications. Your 32 bit machine works fine, in fact you are selling it for what it's worth.
Your purchase of a 64 bit CPU is consumerism, buying for the sake of ownership. Your rants on obsolescence of the 32 bit CPU boarder on paranoia.
What should I expect from someone who complains about how Linux does not run on the new, non-Linux compatible box s/he built?
Also Linux is not about word domination. If you do not like it, go back to OS X, after all that is what choice is all about.
106 • # 105 (by Anonymous on 2006-08-21 12:31:32 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"Your purchase of a 64 bit CPU is consumerism, buying for the sake of ownership. Your rants on obsolescence of the 32 bit CPU boarder on paranoia."
I think the only reason to buy a 64bit machine is when one needs looooots of memory such for runing a data base in memory because 32bit have a short/low limit of memory addresseable.
107 • RE:#105 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-21 14:21:37 GMT from Roma, Italy)
Final word (from my side) on this crazy matter.
I had a 3 years old, lowish end computer. I needed a new one. I built it with reasonably future-proof technology. I sold the old one because I am not the kind of person who puts everything in the loft (after all I helped somebody who needed a reasonable box for little money)
After all I don't drink, I don't smoke, basically I spend my money only on food and bills. So I don't know why I shouldn't spend some money on computer parts without being criticized by some paranoid "anti-consumerist"
And yes, as a linux veteran I have the right to complain that support for new hardware sometimes takes far too long (and I say that especially as a long time Debian user who had to move to SUSE in order to find his hardware supported)
108 • About consumerism (by linbetwin on 2006-08-21 15:09:11 GMT from Ploiesti, Romania)
I am the one "accused" of consumerism for buying a 64-bit CPU. I don't mind, I am not at all offended. I believe this whole thing was a misunderstanding. I make roughly $300-400 a month and I can rarely afford hardware upgrades. That's why I try to buy hardware that won't be obsolete in two years.
109 • RE: #108 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-08-21 15:15:39 GMT from Roma, Italy)
I know, linbetwin.
That is why I posted that link. Accusing of consumerism somebody who lives in a country which is notoriously not rich, for buying something worth $59.97, is really the top.
110 • GRML (by |TG|Mateo on 2006-08-21 17:21:37 GMT from Quincy, United States)
Ladislav,
Thanks for spotlighting grml. It has alot of things going for it: tons of applications and tools, several lightweight desktops, and it does not completely break debian compatibility.
A real gem, like Slax.
-Mateo
Number of Comments: 110
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
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OLPC OS
One Laptop Per Child (OLPC) was an initiative to build a low-cost laptop computer with a pre-installed operating system and applications designed for children in developing countries. The operating system was a Linux-based solution, a heavily customised edition of Fedora Core with a special graphical user interface called Sugar. Among applications, the system includes a web browser built on Xulrunner, a simple document viewer based on Evince; the AbiWord word processor, an RSS reader, email, chat and VOIP clients, a multimedia authoring and playback environment, a music composition toolkit, graphics toolkits, games, a shell, and a debugger.
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