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1 • xandros 4 (by tom at 2006-06-26 10:22:55 GMT from Camberley, United Kingdom)
being a keen fan on the initial release of xandros 3 i was disappointed with the inability to integrate non xandros software in an easy manner, $70 i wont be spending, pclinuxos just does it better
2 • Minix (by Ben Woods on 2006-06-26 10:33:34 GMT from Dalkeith, Australia)
Minix - I reckon its fair game!
Minix was, after all, the OS that Linus used before creating linux :)
Bring it on IMHO :)
3 • Minix, and other non-linux *BSD operating systems. (by mark_alec on 2006-06-26 10:35:34 GMT from Gold Coast, Australia)
I feel that the inclusion of Minix and other similar alternative operating systems would be of great benefit to the fantastic resource that DistroWatch is.
4 • MINIX (by Motarion on 2006-06-26 10:45:53 GMT from Paris, France)
yes for its integration in Distrowatch!
It's more fair for free software ;)
5 • gentoo struggle (by yeauch on 2006-06-26 10:45:54 GMT from Leeds, United Kingdom)
Oh No!
I did not know that there is an unrest in the Gentoo dev community! I really like Gentoo and I find is the best distro out there! I think this is what running Linux should be. Flexible, lean and efficient.
I hope the "political" problems there won't affect this wonderful distro!
6 • Gentoo (by Constantine on 2006-06-26 10:47:03 GMT from Athens, Greece)
Gentoo is not a small project that depend just on a guy or two.
Same things said when Daniel Robbins left gentoo for u-know-which corporation but the project keeps growing up, and that cause gentoo has a large user base who support it.
7 • Minix and Gentoo (by Mark South at 2006-06-26 11:01:18 GMT from Geneva, Switzerland)
Minix - yes, absolutely, it belongs in the space of free operating systems as much as Linux and BSD. It's also been making great strides recently. Distrowatch is here to cope with the diversity of free OSes, it can cope with one more.
Gentoo - a distinctive distro with an interesting philosophy, a clean architecture, and one of the best sets of Linux documentation anywhere. It would be a tragedy if this fell apart. So, my message to Gentooists everywhere: GET IT SORTED OUT AND BACK ON TRACK!!!
8 • minix (by Jeremias on 2006-06-26 11:04:52 GMT from Ume, Sweden)
Of course you should include MINIX, especially since Mr Tanenbaums requested it! It would be fair, as there are BSDs included in Distrowatch, so why not MINIX?
9 • No subject (by 1c3d0g on 2006-06-26 11:12:39 GMT from Oranjestad, Aruba)
Yeah, I don't see a problem with adding Minix to DistroWatch. Anyone that does have a problem with it needs to clearly explain him/herself, though.
And about Gentoo, well, there's about 400 other distro's...nobody's going to cry if Gentoo doesn't have as large of a development community as before.
10 • Minix (by Richard, Germany on 2006-06-26 11:15:26 GMT from Neueiche, Germany)
Minix should be considered to be in distrowatch thought it wouldn't make it into the TOP 100.
11 • a Dilemma, if the purpose, is to be fair, and to promote OpenSource,OSs & Distro (by Angel-Fr@gzilla on 2006-06-26 11:22:04 GMT from Bruxelles, Belgium)
Well, I think any OS Distro that is more or less usable to some extent , should be included but then you have to include also: Syllable, Plan9, FreeDOS, GNU-FreeDOS, Menuet 32 bit, AROS, ReactOS, Haiku etc.
The question should be then, how to distinguish exactly what is an "OS" (Operating System), and what is a "Distro", or even what is a kernel...
So we need a clear definition of the meanings of "DISTRO" and "OS". Ladislav should clarify if the Site is "DistroWatch", "OSWatch", both, or "Wathever is OpensourceWatch"
And although MINIX and others, deserve a place to be shown and recognized to the public, I do NOT think some/many or them are exactly "Distros" but just Operating Systems, and sometimes not fully, or scarcerly usable.
Apparently it will represent a dilemma, if the purpose, is to be fair, and to promote Open Source, Open Source OSs, and Distros at the same time...
Angel-Fr@gzilla
12 • minix (by markl on 2006-06-26 11:22:15 GMT from Dubai, United Arab Emirates)
thumbs up from me
13 • How I created a distro in a weekend and got on Distrowatch in 3 days (by Lobster on 2006-06-26 11:24:43 GMT from Rochdale, United Kingdom)
What a geekend . . . eh weekend . . . here is how I created (still working on it) my own distro in two days. On the 3rd day I am added to the list of Distrowatch distros . . .
http://tmxxine.com/Wikka/wikka.php?wakka=DistroCreate
The distro just like me is far from perfect. For the first time ever I download a XaraLx nightly build that does not work. And Mplayer seems to crash the window manager. Other than that it rocks - It even tells you it rocks . . . this is a Linux that talks - it includes voice synthesis. Don't you dare get it saying rude things about Bill Gates will you? [cough, cough] It is thanks to Puppy Linux on which this is based (just like the excellent Grafpup, Mean Puppy and KDE-Puppy) that I was able to create a distro in two days. Awesome power for the geek with limited ability but no sense of restraint . . . I am hoping to get it to sing in future versions . . .
14 • Xandros 4 (by Roy Stefanussen on 2006-06-26 11:30:25 GMT from Cincinnati, United States)
I credit Corel Linux and Xandros 1.0 for easing my transition to Linux, even though I continued on to faster, less windows-like distros.
But activation? That's one of the reasons why I left!
15 • Minix (by UnoGrigio on 2006-06-26 11:31:57 GMT from Roma, Italy)
A big YES to the inclusion of MINIX in Distrowatch :-)
16 • Minix (by groool on 2006-06-26 11:34:12 GMT from Linz, Austria)
Minix - if you ask me, it's okay to add it, the more free software we have, the better, but for fairness reasons, I'd recommend covering the other more or less free OSes out there as well (mainly thinking of FreeDOS and descendants; and ReactOS). Do the fellow readers know more?
17 • Minix (by mika hack on 2006-06-26 11:35:36 GMT from Rome, Italy)
Welcome MINIX
18 • Minix (by Jean Azzopardi on 2006-06-26 11:49:27 GMT from Attard, Malta)
Minix should be included, imho. Thanks to Minix, we have Linux, and when you have the author wanting its inclusion, then, we should include it.
Also, I think the other OSes, such as React OS should be included too, as long as they have a relationship with *nix.
19 • Xandros 4 (by IMQ on 2006-06-26 11:51:31 GMT from Decatur, United States)
The activation is really a big turn-off for me. Just too much of a reminder of the Windows activation. What's next? XGA?
"That's right. Ladies and gentlemen, may we present you the Xandros Genuine Advantage (XGA). We are going out of our way, bending over backward to give you the look-and-feel of the Windows transparently. You'll be right at home with Xandros. In the not too distant future, we are going to make feel even more at home with the introduction of Xandros Genuine Advantage Notification (XGAN), which will ping our server once a month. Not once every 14 days like Windows.
Thank you for purchasing our products. And welcome to the Xandros family."
20 • Re: Is the Gentoo Project in trouble? (by solar on 2006-06-26 11:52:24 GMT from Atlanta, United States)
Gentoo is a growing organic distro. Sure we have our share of trolls that burn other people out. We also have our share of really great guys to work with. Some people are simply not cut out for longer term roles. Some people don't handle stress well in a fast paced environment. IMHO the guys that are stressing need nothing more than simply getting laid. Gentoo is not going anywhere any time soon thats for sure. I've strived from 2003 till today to make gentoo one kick butt source based distro with lots of options & features and I plan to continue doing that. Other devs are striving for the same thing.
Grow some thick skin, get laid, have a beer, take a day or a week off if you are feeling
stressed. If you attempted all of the above and it's still not working. Come talk to me or
seemant before you throw in the towel. Or... Take a lesson from SpanKY.. He's been in the Gentoo game longer than most and knows how to keep things fun.
-solar@gentoo
21 • Minix (by Alan Sanderson on 2006-06-26 11:54:00 GMT from Canberra, Australia)
Minix should be on Distrowatch given that Unicies other than Linux are. One question though, is it perhaps time that distrowatch consider changing its name, given that is covers OSs other than Linux distros?
22 • Suggestion that I think it will improve the usability of DistroWatch (by Angel-Fr@gzilla at 2006-06-26 11:54:57 GMT from Bruxelles, Belgium)
!
By the way, I have a suggestion that I think it will improve the usability of the already excellent Distrowatch Web Site, and at the same time will show better the work of Ladislav and his collaborators.
It will be also more fair to all those minor Distros that are struggling, out there to be recognised, and to all the Distros that are not produced with English as their main language.
All the Distros that are not in the TOP 100 of DistroWatch have less opportunities to be known and used by potential new users, because they are not simply shownin the main page. So, being in the "Main Page" is a kind of "Publicity" for the Distros that are already there and are generally the "Big ones", and the better known ones already, that in this way, keep on being better known than those that are not in the main page.
So, Ladislav and DistroWatch staff and readers I would like to see after the Distro number 100, a link (something like "More Distros") to another page, in which people could see the continuation of the DistroWatch Top Distros List. Thats is to say: another web page with the continuation of the Distros ranking by everyday's clicks, from the 101 to the 400 or 500 whatever!
People could in this way, check better the evolution of other less known Distros. It will push the opportunities of specialised Distros and non English Distros too... And it will be more fair to all the Ditros in general (IMHO)
So Ladislav an readers: What do you think about this???
Angel-Fr@gzilla
23 • MINIX (by werner on 2006-06-26 12:12:49 GMT from Issy, France)
MINIX
I used MINIX long time ago and would like to see that it goes forwards. However, that 3rd version of it seems being more a propaganda action of MINIX 's authors new edition of his book. In fact, nothing happens on MINIX. Nor any grafical desktop sistem or something else that it could considered as serious.
http://www.monkey.is-a-geek.net/info.php
monkeynet-linux
24 • Gentoo (by scribe63 on 2006-06-26 12:23:40 GMT from Hicksville, United States)
I hope politricks(politics) does not kill off gentoo, because even though it seems intimidating to some users because of compile time, if you take that route. When things don't work on other distros, it works on Gentoo. I 've seen things like video plugin playback in firefox, video playback in vlc and of some video format that only play audio in other distros. Above all Gentoo gives the best GNU/Linux Learning Experience and Documentation to go with it in Linux Land.
Keep Gentoo Alive.
Peace
25 • Xandros 4 (by Ian Groves on 2006-06-26 12:39:47 GMT from Central District, Hong Kong)
Yup, activation has put me off this distro too - may be polished and Windows-like and simple and have great hardware detection and all the rest, but I left "activation" behind when I left Windows and have no intention of going back now.
This is the great thing about Linux - you don't care for activation in Xandros? You can walk right on by to the next distribution which doesn't contain this stuff. Ahh, choice!
26 • xandros ntfs feature? (by me on 2006-06-26 12:40:54 GMT from Tirana, Albania)
i wished that there was some comments on this Ntfs drivers in the xandros 4 review....
27 • Xandros = GPL Violators? (by C. Dominik Bodi on 2006-06-26 12:44:01 GMT from Falls Church, United States)
I've noticed that xandros's ftp server (ftp://ftp2.xandros.com/src/) doesn't contain the sources for desktop 4 yet. If the sources for all strong-copyleft free software (like all software licensed under the GPL) isn't available yet, xandros currently violates the GPL.
Additionally, rebranding software like amarok and digikam into "xandros whatevertool" without giving credit to the original software violates the GPL as well.
28 • MINIX, etc. (by Mark W. Tomlinson on 2006-06-26 12:45:20 GMT from Duluth, United States)
I would say "yes" to MINIX for historical purposes, if nothing else...
re: the Gentoo problems - that's too bad. While I've never been a Gentoo user (installed it a couple of times, just to see what it's about), I can appreciate the "tweaker" mindset it appeals to. Also, as someone else already noted, some of the flat-out BEST documentation in the industry has been produced by this project. I certainly hope they can persevere through these difficult times.
29 • MINIX (by Chris Norton on 2006-06-26 13:00:34 GMT from Melbourne, Australia)
Yet another vote to include Minix in the Distrowatch mix! I like the design ideas presented by the OS and would like to see more community development efforts going into it. I don't think anyone here would mind some OS distributions based on it.
30 • MINIX (by Linoobux on 2006-06-26 13:25:59 GMT from Atlanta, United States)
I vote Yes, I would like to see MINIX included.
Why?, ...Well, why not?
Choice is what the open source community is all about.
31 • Xandros 4 Desktop (by Anonymo on 2006-06-26 13:51:39 GMT from Houston, United States)
This is what Xandros also needs -
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1494/23yo.gif
32 • Minix and distro list beyond #100 (by Ninad on 2006-06-26 13:56:05 GMT from Dayton, United States)
Yes please include Minix. Maybe this inclusion will spawn some community effort.
Also I second the suggestion by Angel-Fr #22 of including a link after the top 100 distros and listing all other distros with their HPD's
33 • Gentoo problems (by Kensai on 2006-06-26 14:13:29 GMT from , Puerto Rico)
We have to remember Gentoo has a large community of developers and a lot more willing to become devs or to contribute as staff in the gentoo community, count me as one. The founder of Gentoo left and nothing happened Gentoo is better now without him. If 2-5 developers left Gentoo there are more that will fill those choose in a better way. There is no distro like Gentoo it is simply the best and it is unlikely to die, since it's developers base is so large that the leave of some of them those not affect the general product.
34 • Minix & links to distros > 100 (by anamesa on 2006-06-26 14:20:12 GMT from Athens, Greece)
Yes to Minix, not only for "historical" reason, but because it seems to be actively developed as well.
I also second the suggestion of including links pointing to distros 101-200, 201-300 etc.
35 • Other Operating Systems (by Buster Ellis on 2006-06-26 14:23:00 GMT from Swansea, Canada)
Some of the people who wish to add all the other Open Source operating systems should volunteer to run a sister OSWatch, rather than piling on more work for this one. I'm sure they would get help in setting it up.
36 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-06-26 14:26:12 GMT from Dorval, Canada)
If you add MINIX listed on the site, please also consider adding GNU Hurd.
37 • Xandros and Minix (by Jesse on 2006-06-26 14:27:54 GMT from Calgary, Canada)
While I haven't used Xandros personally, I do like the aim of the company. Creatnig a easy-to-use distro which just works is
a great goal and it looks like they're doing a fine job. Xandros is, if nothign else, a great bridge between the Windows and Linux worlds.
As for including Minix on distrowatch, I have a question: What are the gide lines for including a distro? Just being open source? Being related to UNIX? Being a complete distro and not just a kernel?
I'm all for distrowatch including Minix and I would be interested in hearing what makes an OS DistroWatch worthy.
38 • Remove Xandros (by Kanotix User on 2006-06-26 14:30:03 GMT from Van Nuys, United States)
I concure with C. Dominik Bodi. Xandros is in clear violation of the GPL. They're profiting on open source without even recognizing or giving back to the open source comunity!
I think that a Distro or OS that violates the licences (ie. GPL, BSD, etc.,) of the software that they include should be removed from distrowatch, or have a warning or somthing on its distrowatch page that it violates open source licences.
Yes, Xandros may be userfriendly for newbie window users, but is it somthing that should be recomended? It's becoming the windows/Microsoft of Linux distros. I would never recommend such a distro to Anyone.
If companies want to make a distro and even charge for it, that's ok with me. As long as they: don't rebrand open source software, give credit to the wonderful and hard working developers that work on open source software, and relese their contributions back to the community.
39 • Minix (by Tom Servo on 2006-06-26 14:40:51 GMT from Cincinnati, United States)
Sure, throw it in there and then watch it plummet off the Top 100. Including it is fine as long as it receives no special treatment. Does anybody actually use this outside of an educational environment? My last exposure to it was years ago when it was used nearly exclusively as a learning tool.
As others have said, if you're going to do this include ReactOS, Freedos, and Hurd as well.
40 • Xandros, good and bad (by JimK on 2006-06-26 15:02:55 GMT from Nashville, United States)
Xandros is a well done distro, very polished and user-friendly. I would even consider purchasing it if had more current packages. But KDE 3.4 is so last year, and Xandros waits at least a year between version releases, so you end up using 2-year-old software.
I tried version 3 when they released it as a free "open community edition." I was glad to see them release a free version, but if I remember correctly, they disabled CD-burning, which was a big minus.
I like the fact that they have a "launch" button on the panel instead of the default K menu button, which makes no sense to somebody who doesn't know what KDE is (I think Linspire has the same thing).
As a lot of people here have pointed out, the biggest problem is activation. When you agree to pay money for what is essentially free software, you should be on the honor system.
41 • Suggestions for DistroWatch (by Bill Savoie on 2006-06-26 15:24:42 GMT from Church Hill, United States)
As Distros are bought by corrporations, and other Distros move more mainstream, they forget how to play DVD movies, or even MP3 audio files! Since DistroWatch is located outside of the USA, this would be a wonderful place to link in that information. I got my SuSE 10.1 to play DVD movies, but now my rpm is broken. It will not run updates. It will take time to recover my original system and then find out what broke it. I would put in more energy if I knew I could pass that information on to others. DistroWatch would be a great place to make all this 'forbidden' knowlege available. Why not work together, to make a better world for all?
42 • Minix (by Warpengi on 2006-06-26 15:30:43 GMT from Calgary, Canada)
I would accept Minix for inclusion on Distrowatch with one caveat. This site is useful for people looking for a alternative to windows. That's how I 1st came to Distrowatch.
There are many choices for Linux and now more for BSD too. It appears the inclusion of BSDs on this site has even encouraged the development of some of the new, more user friendly and LiveCD versions of the BSDs.
So the caveat is this. If the inclusion of Minix morphs into the inclusion of all free OS's and it gets more difficult to access information about useful distros then no, I would not want to see Minix included. If it can be done while still allowing easy access to the majority then fine,go ahead. I have no doubt that it can be done. One suggstion would be a link to other OS's on the front page rather than listing those OS's on the front page.
Distrowatch is a great site for many who have heard about Linux to find a distro that works for them. If they have to wade through details about all kinds of different OS's before finding something they want to install on their computer it adds an extra level of complication and possibly irritation that may drive the new user away. This may be the opportunity for the Distrowatch maintainers to develop a new site rather than complicate an already fine site.
Angel-Fr@gzilla makes some valid comments that might suggest that this would be more appropriate for a new web site rather than for Distrowatch.
43 • yes.... and no (by allenw on 2006-06-26 15:32:00 GMT from Lattimore, United States)
I vote for minix - Yes, but No for xandros.... they wanna include activation? and they dont give back to the linux community.... get rid of them we dont need closed minds in the open source community..
44 • Minix (by Dan on 2006-06-26 15:38:22 GMT from Brooks, Canada)
I started coming to Distrowatch because of the excellent LINUX derivatives that were presented in an orderly fashion and that I could browse and choose to try. By it's very name there should be only Linux distributions present here. The inclusion of BSD's in my opinion was a mistake, as there are already more than enough Linux distributions around that BSD's and their derivatives are now pushing out of the top 100. I would like to see another website, say, BSDWatch, for BSD fans. People make good points here, where do you draw the line? ReactOS, FreeDOS, Hurd, etc. etc. Pretty soon linux distros would be the minority. There is already enough fragmentation amongst Linux distributions, I say keep Distrowatch about Linux distros and quit trying to be all things to all people. Mr. Tanenbaum only asked for Minix to be included because you already have set a precedent by including other non-Linux OS's
Just my 2 cents
45 • Minix and others (by Steff on 2006-06-26 15:58:10 GMT from Milton Keynes, United Kingdom)
Yes to Minix, as
1. It is free software
2. It is UNIX-based (well, to some extent at least)
3. Originally Minix was developed as a teaching instrument only, but now Andy T. wants to create a community of real users and developers around Minix 3, to extend the drivers availability, etc - this is a bona-fide effort
4. Uses interesting technologies, as opposed to many copycat efforts that add very little to the community, and could be interesting to track
5. Historically, it is connected to Linux (the famous flamewar etc). If you track Solaris (and BSD's), then... why not Minix?
6. I understand that there needs to be a limit... Well, I suppose that the limit could be defined as follows: an OS is tracked if A. is relevant (mature to be usable at least as an experiment: it boots, runs a reasonable number of apps etc...) B. is interesting (is not a pure vanity project and adds something to the community) and C. Is in some way Linux-UNIX related. This would lead to include Minix, but exclude the various Haku, Zeta (no C.), Hurd (no A)
46 • Bring on MINIX !! (by Gabriel on 2006-06-26 16:00:01 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
>> I have Toshiba Sattellite Pro(460CDX) P-I laptop.
It has a 1GB Hard Drive and 48MB of RAM.
As you can tell, this is a pretty old machine.
Yet i had Windows98 running on it perfectly.
However, i wanted to replace it with Linux.
Therefore, i downloaded and tried a half a dozen distros aimed at old computers. Damn Small Linux, KateOS, Vector Linux and Beatrix Linux were among the distros i have tried. Alas, i was dispointed when NONE of these distros were able to boot my old and humble Toshiba lap -- which Windows98 runs on it without a hitch and perfectly fast!!
Then in the last minute i discovered MINIX-- it works perfectly well. It runs fast and smoothly. It has rescued my dear old laptop.
And yes i acknowlodge that MINIX still has a long way to go before it becomes a fully operational desktop OS, but in the meantime, it is the best option for preventing old computers becoming junk.
I resent the fact that there are more 200 linux distros out there--yet NONE of them can run on an old computer, which Microsoft's Win98 could run it perfectly.
Anyway, to make a long story short, YES, please bring on MINIX on Distrowatch BECAUSE it has prevented another computer to become absolute simply because it was "old".
47 • No subject (by someone from somewhere on 2006-06-26 16:03:00 GMT from Chicago, United States)
Actually, what Dan/commentary#44 says does make sense. Maybe it would be best to split the site into distrowatch.com for linux only and freeoperatingsystemswatch or similar for everything else (including BSD, Minix, FreeDos, Haiku...)
or maybe you could create subdomains, like linux.distrowatch.com, bsd.distrowatch.com, everythingelse.distrowatch.com, you get the idea
48 • Xandros??? (by Anonymous on 2006-06-26 16:17:05 GMT from Bronx, United States)
Let's see:
-No sources made available
-Requires serial and activation
-Renames popular programs presenting them something unique to their distro
-many packages are not even up-to-date.
How can you recommend this ... to anybody, even Linux newbies? I agree, they should be banned, sued even.
Also, I agree that a more comprehensive list of all distros should be made avaliable. Not only the top 100.
49 • Minix, Xandros, etc. (by UltraZelda64 on 2006-06-26 16:26:24 GMT from Alliance, United States)
Minix would be a good addition - but as other people have said, only if it doesn't complicate things. As someone else said, the Minix developer is writing a new book about the operating system to sell, so I'm questioning whether it really would be a good idea or not to add this operating system to the database at this time... so far, it seems to be making some decent steps in development, but if this is just to get more attention simply to sell this guy's book, I say leave it out. Unfortunately, there's no real way of knowing, so I think we should just wait it out; see if Minix does continue to make big steps towards being a worthy OS, and if so, add it then. If it slows down after the release of the book, don't bother. I don't think the OS is mature enough yet to add to the list, anyway.
I agree with whoever said there should be a separate page for all non-Linux OSes, to avoid confusion, and that there should be an easy way to be able to view distros ranked 101-200 in hit counts. As for Xandros... I remember Xandros 3 open-circulation being a decent OS (considering I was a complete newbie at the time), and had the simplest install I've *ever* seen. Requiring activation is just downright filthy, and for that reason, I'm not touching the distro again (though I was considering a while back playing around with 3.0 that I would try it out when it comes out). It's even worse when they give no credit to the original developers, and don't give back any contributions.
I think it would be a good idea to do what was suggested in this thread and add a warning on the distro's page that it violates the GPL. Taking it off completely might be somewhat unfair, because it would likely require very interesting projects such as Nexenta to be removed as well, and I would hate to see that happen. Seems like it has tons of potential.
50 • Xandros and GPL (by Jesse on 2006-06-26 16:43:36 GMT from Calgary, Canada)
Renaming a shortcut or changing the name of an
executable is hardly in violation of the GPL. Also,
in regards to Xandros I don't think they are required
to share the source code unless you also wish to
gain a copy of their release. See section #3 of the GPL.
As I understand it, Xandros cusomters have access to their GPLed code,
Before someone thinks Xandros should be sued for making a
first-class product, maybe they should become more
familiar with both Xandros and the GPL.
51 • Xandros getting a Free Pass? (by kenjite on 2006-06-26 17:04:23 GMT from Berlin, Germany)
Why is it that Xandros gets away with being a total ripoff of M$ from its 1980s looking interface to its money grubbing buisness model. I'm sure the readers here can relate to the bashing that Linspire (Lindows) has and continues to take for similar choices but Xandros hasn't had to weather a fraction of the storm. Hey, at least Linspire has contributed some code back to the community but I am unaware of even one line of code that Xandros has shared.
52 • Yes to Minix! (by JeffS on 2006-06-26 17:19:49 GMT from San Francisco, United States)
I say absolutely yes to Minix. I'd say that Minix is at least as relevant, and probably more relevant, than the hordes of "Me too" Linux distros that are derivatives of derivatives of derivatives, which simply package slightly different packages, and which have slightly different desktop themes, then the bazillion other distros.
Minix is another Unix-like operating system, that I believe is POSIX compliant (like Linux, BSD, Solaris, etc), but it is different than the others in that is is a microkernel design. That alone sets it apart, and makes it worthy of inclusion.
Also, it is true that Minix was, until recently, mostly an educational tool for Tannebaum's operating systems classes/books. That alone is a legitmate of a purpose to make an OS as the hundreds of "Me too" distros out there. But now Tannenbaum is aiming at making the latest Minix 3 a more general purpose OS, with an active community. More power to him.
It's all free software, and it's a Unix like OS, so why not include Minix?
Finally, to comment on what some others have said, I see no reason to have a separate "non-Linux" category. Again, I find the BSDs, OpenSolaris, and now Minix to be just as, if not more, relevant than the hundreds of "Me too" Linux distros. Those distros should be bumped off the top 100 by increasing popularity of other non-Linux distros.
And, to avaid confusion, Distrowatch should be defined as distributions of POSIX compliant (which, again, includes Linux, BSD, OpenSolaris, and Minix) free operating systems.
53 • Minix (by Max Beauchez on 2006-06-26 17:23:30 GMT from The Hague, Netherlands)
Please include it! I'd love to see distrowatch as my resource for news on al open source operating systems, and i think including Minix is a step in the right direction
54 • Gentoo (by BeastOfBurden on 2006-06-26 17:52:15 GMT from Dallas, United States)
I am a Gentoo user, not yet a developer. The distribution itself has a very strong technical foundation and a talented group of developers. Since Daniel Robbins departure the development has become decentralized, and while this has in some ways helped expand the number of projects based on or for the benefit of Gentoo, the lack of centralized leadership has contributed to a lack of focus or constructive ways to reign in developers that let personal issues get in the way.
I sincerely hope that these difficulties are mere growing pains. There is something to be said for centralized leadership (Ubuntu has Mark Shuttleworth, the Linux kernel itself has Linus, Slackware has Patrick Volkerding, etc.). The foundation laid by Daniel Robbins does not need him to succeed, but maybe it needs someone like him in the driver's seat.
55 • Minix (by James Beckwith on 2006-06-26 18:10:52 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
Minix was an inspiration for those of us who looked for affordable/alternative/accessible operating systems. Prof. Tannenbaum gave those of us outside academia access to the *nix world we could otherwise only read about. So why not include Minix? I suspect we would find it a good cross-pollenation.
56 • No Minix (by Eric on 2006-06-26 18:16:46 GMT from Willowdale, Canada)
Well I wouldnt want to include it with the tracking system done with major players of GNU or BSD. But the DW regulars should have also known of the http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=links page which DOES include Minix within the FreeBSD->Other UNIX and UNIX clones section. Since I nor most other current GNU/BSD users dont want to learn a new OS that is more buggy, less developed, and with probably even less compatibility with our hardware unless you decided to join them and help develop and audit ther code. LOL, who wants to test Minix's ability for commercial server use??
So to me possibly the link to that subsection of DW should be easier to navigate to for users searching specifically for that type of OS. But so far DW is doing its job very efficiently and Minix should stay in the unice clone section for reasons of non-desktop and non-server regular, daily, 24/7 use, since it IS mainly a teaching tool.
57 • No subject (by Michael G Thomas on 2006-06-26 19:05:13 GMT from Fort Lauderdale, United States)
Yes by alll means I welcome minix to distrowatch
58 • nooooo (by gentoo fan on 2006-06-26 19:29:47 GMT from Syracuse, United States)
i love gentoo, i would hate for the project to ever end. it is possibly the only distribution thqat truely respects taht i should control my system and exactly how it works. if gentoo leaves then we will just be stuck with a bunch of distros who mostly want to make everything more and more automated it it becomes just like windows.
59 • About MINIX on distrowatch (by JM on 2006-06-26 20:03:05 GMT from Toarp, Sweden)
A very good idea. I wouldn't mind more on imbedded linux and other
OS's and systems.
It's all about choise, isn't it?
Big thank's to Ladislav and others for making it possible.
My best to all of you - JM
60 • Minix (by David on 2006-06-26 20:05:22 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
My vote would be to include Minix.......it ain't Linux, but it's interesting to follow.....
61 • Yes to Minix! (by mr moose on 2006-06-26 20:16:09 GMT from Wellington, New Zealand)
Hi -
A very big "YES!" to including Minix on Distrowatch.
I really like the approach that the Minix devs are taking. A very small kernel with **no bloat**. Hoping to see it included on Distrowatch soon .....
62 • MINIX (by JB on 2006-06-26 21:00:28 GMT from Birmingham, United States)
As others have remarked, MINIX played a role in the inspiration and early development of the Linux kernel--I should certainly think it deserves a place, even being the system Torvalds wanted to replace.
63 • Xnadros and GPL software (by ezsit on 2006-06-26 21:14:40 GMT from Chandler, United States)
I concure with C. Dominik Bodi. Xandros is in clear violation of the GPL. They're profiting on open source without even recognizing or giving back to the open source comunity!
Clear violation? Are we talking about their FTP server and the source to the free parts of their distro? If so, the GPL only requires that the recipient of the binary code also receive the source code. Xandros is perfectly within the GPL restictions if they only provide source code to people who have purchased a copy of the distribution. Xandros can even provide the source on CD mailed dirctly to the customers rather than provide an FTP download. The company can even restrict the FTP site to customers only. What is your problem here?
I think that a Distro or OS that violates the licences (ie. GPL, BSD, etc.,) of the software that they include should be removed from distrowatch, or have a warning or somthing on its distrowatch page that it violates open source licences.
Wow! You're a real GPL enforcer nazi aren't you? Since when is Distrowatch an arm of the FSF? Let Distrowatch concentrate on the news and leave the enforcement up to better qualified organizations.
If companies want to make a distro and even charge for it, that's ok with me. As long as they: don't rebrand open source software, give credit to the wonderful and hard working developers that work on open source software, and relese their contributions back to the community.
What's your problem with rebranding? Didn't X.org do this to XFree86, and then some? GPL allows for rebranding, as long as the authors are still given credit.
64 • Sabayon's name is already taken! (by benplaut on 2006-06-26 21:16:30 GMT from Burlingame, United States)
Check out gnome's lockdown program of the same name. Boo!
65 • Xandros & A Free Internet (by Lance on 2006-06-26 22:09:49 GMT from Tewksbury, United States)
There was a time when Xandros 3 Deluxe could be found on just about any torrent file server's list. I'd venture a guess and say there are more illict copies out there than legit ones. Perhaps they've learned a thing or two since then.
The Free version of Xandros 3 had the speed clipped for writing to CD's but that never stopped anyone from finding a workaround. I came across the solution on their own forums.
When all is said and done Xandros is one of the most stable and complete distros out there and deserves credit for the accomplishment. It's a pity Ubunutu and other great genuine open source distros are going to rip open their pocketbooks down the road.
What alarms me the most of late is this Net Neutrality thing being debated in the US. I heard one neighbor who works for a major broadband ISP say his employer would cripple Skype and all of the rest of the telephony competitors if they get their way. Funny how the Net is now more and more being bullied and run by the corporations. You see my friends, it is not the US gov that's the enemy. The real enemy is the international corporations who have no loyalty to any of us. This is a much bigger issue than software patents and everyone seems to be asleep. These money people are going to make China's Internet censorship look like amateur hour.
66 • 65 • Xandros & A Free Internet (by johncoom on 2006-06-26 22:31:21 GMT from Camberley, United Kingdom)
I agree with those comments and sentiments totally
67 • Growing Pains? (by Alec Warner on 2006-06-26 22:46:37 GMT from East Lansing, United States)
I think people work on projects for different reasons. Individuals have their own ideas about how where the distribution is headed; sometimes those ideas clash in a spectacular fashion. The project has too many assets to just die; some reorganization of developer manpower will probably take place in the coming years. However I see this as more a natural progression than anything worrysome. According to many people the current organizational scheme doesn't work out well; however it seems to work out for me 99% of the time.
There are some critical issues where you just need someone to have the final word; issues that span the entire set of projects instead of just one or two. This person used to be Daniel Robbins; it appears we have not yet found a replacement for him (be it one person, or a council of people).
68 • Various (by tom on 2006-06-26 22:48:11 GMT from Helena, United States)
First, I support Distrowatch tracking the BSD's.
Second, Minix? Is it anything more then hsitorical? Could any of you Minix fans write some kind of review if you feel it is so good.
Third Xandros. I tried the last Xandros and found it to be stable as a foundation. I agree with the distasteful sentiments surrounding this distro. Frankly I found it has little to offer not found in other distros (PCLinux, Mepis, and Kanotix) and I would predict it will not be popular beyond the Linux newbie market. Once a person is comfortable with Linux they I'll bet they will migrate away from Xandros within 3-6 months.
Could any Xandros fans tell us what makes Xandros a superior distro? In my experience there are a number of distros that "just work" as well as Xandros.
Fourth, (just asking), if we are tracking all available distro's, free and non-free, linux, BSD, and others, why not track Windows? What is then the criteria for a listing on Distrowatch?
My opinion is Distrowatch should track all OS released (and compliant with) the spirit of GPL.
69 • Fedora's Contest (by Sam on 2006-06-26 22:52:45 GMT from Pinckney, United States)
Ha, that's funny. Fedora (a hat for your head) is giving out flip flops (for your feet) to contestants. :-)
70 • get your facts straight (by nightmorph on 2006-06-26 22:55:07 GMT from Escondido, United States)
To the editors and contributors of the Gentoo article:
Please, get your facts straight. Quoting one or two devs (especially sejo, who might not actually be retiring) does *not* constitute good reporting. It's actually a misleading bit of FUD. Yes, the devs have noticed the recent small string of retirements, and several of us have questioned what's going on in our blogs, and on the mailing lists.
But since all that's visible to the general public is lists like gentoo-dev and planet.gentoo.org, no one really has any idea where much of the real struggles take place, "in house", that is, on the private developer-only list(s). And even then, we're dealing with things, trying to move forward. Negative, badly slanted articles such as this one (which doesn't even mention the cancelled retirements) do nothing but spread FUD. We're still around. Some of the devs and projects have technical and personal issues with each other, but we're pressing on, finding solutions. No Linux distribution is without its growing pains, without occasional seasons of tension between a few parties.
This unsatisfying, all-too-limited bit of misinformation isn't even worth being called "reporting." Go check out http://bugs.gentoo.org and search for the numbers of open and closed retirement bug reports. There aren't that many in the last couple of months. Also, I doubt that the writers of this article have bothered to keep a watchful eye on our key development IRC channels like #gentoo-dev for the last month. Otherwise they would have seen how quickly issues are resolved, or at least put into the process of being fixed.
The recent string of events can hardly be called "the toughest period in [Gentoo's] existence".
Please do us the courtesy and speak to several Gentoo developers if you really want to get the "inside scoop" on what's happening in Gentoo. The PR (http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/pr/index.xml) and User Relations (http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/user-relations/index.xml) projects are good places to start. So are the gentoo-dev mailing list archives (http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel).
I feel that an apology and some fact-checking is in order after releasing such a one-sided, uninformed article. I hope future DWs will go back to showing the higher level of correctness and professionalism they were once known for.
Sincerely,
Joshua Saddler, Gentoo developer
71 • No subject (by dmery on 2006-06-26 23:15:07 GMT from Seffner, United States)
Gentoo growing pains.
When a distribution lost its leader these things happen. I hope that Gentoo Project find a replacement for Daniel Robbins his former leader. But I think is not easy to do it.
Regards,
72 • minix 3 (by stolennomenclature on 2006-06-26 23:43:23 GMT from Canberra, Australia)
I would like to see Minix3 tracked on Distrowatch. It is one of only a tiny number of Microkernel based systems to come out of labs into the real world - Hurd springs to mind as the other. Although it is early days it might be nice to offer this kind of encouragement.
Like the Hurd it is a Posix based system which supports X. Its main deficiencies at the moment is hardware support.
73 • MINIX (by Ann on 2006-06-27 00:24:22 GMT from Elmira, United States)
Yes, include it.
Ann (who remembers when 'nix came on 5-1/4" floppies)
74 • No to MINUX, Hurd, etc. (by Wrawrat on 2006-06-27 01:14:10 GMT from Montral, Canada)
It looks like DW is losing some focus...
I wouldn't like to see more OS projects on DW, even if they are based on UNIX principles. It would necessary draw ressources/expertise from the raison d'être of the site (Linux), leading to a poor SNR. The inclusion of the BSDs brought interesting comparisons, but they have also brought some noise for those who doesn't care. Now, I don't have anything against choice (I am using 4 different Linux/BSD systems) but I would rather rely on different sites doing their job very well than a main portal which tracks anything but only provide a minimal level of expertise on what is covered.
Although I have nothing against MINIX or Hurd, they would probably be better off on another site (perhaps something like "freeoswatch", like some posters suggested). It would be a win-win situation: not only they wouldn't be "noise" here, but they wouldn't be drowned in an ocean of Linux distributions!
My 2¢, anyway.
75 • Minix (by nichead on 2006-06-27 01:23:20 GMT from Berlin, Germany)
Yeah, include it! Welcome!
76 • To #58 (by Wrawrat on 2006-06-27 01:34:38 GMT from Montral, Canada)
For most people, a computer is a tool, not some kind of racing car... They don't need to control everything, as long as it does the job.
As for automation, I thought Gentoo was one of the leaders? I mean, just compare emerge and rc-update tools to compiling and managing the SysV levels with symlinks...
77 • RE: MINIX (by ladislav on 2006-06-27 01:41:45 GMT from Taipei, Taiwan)
Well, it looks like the vast majority of readers are in favour of including MINIX on DistroWatch. Unfortunately, the by-product of this desire is a flood of suggestions to include other open source operating systems as well, and this is what I was worried about. As soon as I add MINIX to the site, there will be readers asking: "If MINIX is listed, why not ReactOS, Hurd, etc.?"
Why not indeed? The simple answer is that I just don't have the time and resources to do it. It only takes a few seconds to write a post suggesting ten new operating systems to add to the site, but it will probably take me ten days just to download, install, learn and set up pages devoted to them, followed by a life-time commitment to keep those pages updated, to monitor releases, and to publish news. As much as I'd love to please every request and suggestion, there is a limit to how much a person can do.
There are no hard rules on deciding which operating systems are listed on DistroWatch and which are not. Basically, the only criteria is "demand" - if there is a large number of requests for adding a certain project to the site then I'll oblige eventually.
Those of you who have been around for a few years know that DistroWatch started as a Linux-only web site, but because many readers asked for adding the BSDs and later also Solaris (especially after it was open sourced), those operating systems are now tracked as well. I believe it was a good decision, with FreeBSD now the 12th most visited page on DistroWatch. And if you believe that DistroWatch, based on its name, should only track (Linux) distributions, then please remember that the letter "D" in BSD also stands for "Distribution". And that's a fact, even if some of the BSD die-hards will feel insulted if you call their beloved operating system a distro.
Another criteria for including an OS on DistroWatch is its track record. We all know that FreeBSD, OpenBSD and Solaris are very very widely used operating systems, especially on mission-critical servers, in the banking industry, by search engines, etc. The same can't be said about MINIX, ReactOS and other projects. Yes, there is a great post by a reader who claims that MINIX has saved his old laptop, but it's a solitary voice. How many of those of you in favour of adding MINIX actually use it?
All in all, I am reluctant to add MINIX to the site at this stage. I've downloaded the ISO image (3.1.2a) and will take a look at it before making a final decision. Of course, you are welcome to continue to argue in favour of adding MINIX, but I would prefer arguments from people who actually use it. Is it good? Why do you use it? What does it do better than Linux, BSD, etc.? Has it helped you solve a real-life problem?
Thanks a bunch for all the input so far.
78 • RE: 100+ Page Hit Ranking (by ladislav on 2006-06-27 01:49:32 GMT from Taipei, Taiwan)
Good news for those of you who wanted to see page hit ranking statistics for all distributions, not just the top 100. I modified the script that generates the PHR tables. Unless I made an error somewhere (I haven't tested it), you should be able to see the ranking of all active distributions on http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity starting tomorrow (about half an hour past midnight GMT).
79 • MINIX (by Karl Geiger on 2006-06-27 03:03:47 GMT from Tallahassee, United States)
I too would like to see MINIX added to DistroWatch. I have MINIX installed on 2 systems: (a) 386SX-16 with 32Meg RAM and two 540Meg HDDs, and (b) P-Pro200 with 256Meg RAM and two 4.3Gig HDDs. I use the first as a test-bed for utilities I write/compile on the second. They are both also used to monitor various instruments/sensors in and around my cabin. Yes I have other systems yet I like MINIX as it is small enough that I can grasp 95% of the OS without needing a library shelf of manuals.
80 • re:minix (by andrew on 2006-06-27 03:06:30 GMT from , Australia)
I would argue against including Minix for the simple reason it is not a distribution and I would prefer Distrowatch to remain focused on Linux Distributions, just like the name implies... yes, I felt the same way about adding various flavours of BSDs and Solaris, but hey, it was Ladislav's decision, not mine. I can only repeat my opinion: Distrowatch should remain just that; this is not a matter of any prejudice against BSD, Minix, ReactOS, Syllable, Haiku etc etc - it's an application of classic Unix philosophy: do one job, and do it well.
81 • including minix et. al. (by ray carter at 2006-06-27 03:18:15 GMT from Idaho Falls, United States)
Actually, I don't see a 'mission statement' or 'purpose' anywhere on distrowatch that it should be limited to Linux or *nix, or whatever. Since it collects information on 'distributions' I don't see why minix or whatever should not be included. It works for me.
82 • Sony? (by Vance on 2006-06-27 03:29:13 GMT from Saxonburg, United States)
Fedora and Creative Commons are giving out a Sony product as part of an open media contest? I think the irony meter just broke.
83 • MINIX addition (by Carlos Alberto P. P. B. Santos on 2006-06-27 03:53:59 GMT from La Habana, Cuba)
It would surely be a great addition to the DW database this great and historic operating system.
84 • Well I never expected to be quoted like this (by Joshua Jackson at 2006-06-27 05:28:47 GMT from Albuquerque, United States)
Well, this was a interesting way to be quoted. I'd of liked to have been contacted about the matter and how it was portrayed but alas it didn't happen that way.
There is unrest in gentoo, just like there is in any group of people. People also come and go from a project as they have time. Most of our developers are in or just out of college so its a credit to all of them that gentoo is excelling at its particular niche.
As I mentioned later in the article, gentoo is going through growing pains as it grows into a very mature product. This is likely to be cause of any of the problems we are having.
Some of the positives to mention: We're currently making it easier for alternative package managers to work with the ebuilds that we use as the base system. It'll allow users even more choice in what they want to use. Portage was recently updated to 2.1 that included many improvements to speed, as well as confcache which is a amazing feature for configuration of packages. As well, information you might miss can be stored for later viewing.
Gentoo is far from having the largest crisis in its existence. It will as it has from its inception, continue to grow and mature into a product that encourages users to build the system that they want.
Tsunam, Gentoo developer that got quoted
85 • Gentoo and growing pains (by Ed Borasky on 2006-06-27 05:52:18 GMT from Tualatin, United States)
Well ... I must say I was saddened to see this sort of trashy gossip in DistroWatch. I'm a loyal Gentoo user, as most of you probably know by now, and from where I sit -- behind the console of three 2006.0 real machines and a virtual machine or two as well -- Gentoo is alive and well.
I did go read some of the blogs. It's not impossible, but it is incredibly tricky, to combine a profit-making business and a non-profit "foundation" around a single entity like, say, Gentoo Linux. Red Hat somehow manages to keep the lawyers and accountants at bay with the differentiation between RHEL and Fedora, but aside from that, you're either a business or you're a foundation.
I wish I had the time to become a Gentoo developer. As it is, my day job keeps me pretty busy and my hobby hacking is more general than just Linux. So please, don't discredit those who *do* have the time and have built and maintained this wonderful distro.
And if Gentoo ever does "become a business", I'll buy the CDs, etc. But not the T-shirts -- I don't wear T-shirts.
86 • Re: Sabayon's name is already taken! (by Ariszló on 2006-06-27 06:07:01 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
What's the problem? Gentoo, the file manager, also predates Gentoo, the distribution.:
http://www.obsession.se/gentoo/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_(file_manager)
Another cool name clash is Epiphany:
http://epiphany.sourceforge.net/
http://www.gnome.org/projects/epiphany/
87 • First Impressions Ubuntu Dapper Drake (by Roach Boy on 2006-06-27 08:21:14 GMT from Nairobi, Kenya)
What are my impressions of Ubuntu 6.06? Well, for a start, the documentation is pretty good. I'm no Gnome fan, but 2.14 is a notable improvement over previous versions and especially that piece of [insert four letter word here] called Gnome 2.8!
The installation process is similar to other live CDs such as Knoppix or Kanotix, expect that the installer’s prettier and is more of a cross between Anaconda and Mandriva. You also have to be careful with the partitioning if you have other partitions on your machine.
Ubuntu’s implementation of OpenOffice is the best I've seen so far. The screen is very crisp and so are the print-outs (on a HP Deskjet). The artwork is very slick. I must admit, I’m not a great fan of brown. Ubuntu 4.10 looked to me like someone had taken a dump on my screen! But Ubuntu 6.06’s artwork is really impressive. Finally, Realplayer starts up almost immediately and doesn’t take 10 minutes like it does on Debian. However, a bug which has been commented on elsewhere (http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/7300) is that Ubuntu insists on changing the hardware clock to UTC.
One possible suggestion. I live in Africa (Kenya). This means that unlike the rest of the lucky folks out there I’m not connected to the Internet at home and the connection that I use at work is dog slow. Since the Ubuntu Foundation seems to be targeting much of its work towards environments such as my own, is there any way they can make all the packages for Dapper available on CD/DVD just as you can get all the packages for Debian 3.1 on CD? For instance I'm already downloading new packages and installing manually (http://packages.ubuntu.com), but these packages ask for other packages, and I have to go back and download the additional packages and when I try to install them, they ask for more packages! This dependency hell is frustrating to say the least.
Other than that, I think I may be sold on Ubuntu!
======================================================
To other Bug-Eyed Monsters we are the Bug-Eyed Monsters.
88 • Xandros - my two cents (by Terry on 2006-06-27 08:24:52 GMT from Chullora, Australia)
I have just downloaded Xandros 4 free via bittorrent. I thought it was about time to check it out. I don't know whether Xandros is in breach of anything but falsely claiming credit for applications by renaming them (if that's what Xandros does) is phoney, unprofessional and misleading, if not deceptive. There are plenty of OS distributors who do not resort to such behaviour.
89 • MINIX and Gentoo (by Rogier van Gemert on 2006-06-27 08:26:26 GMT from Amsterdam, Netherlands)
Hello all,
My opinion about MINIX to be added to de list of distro's? Sure, why not?
If BSD is on the list, why not MINIX?
As for Gentoo. I have used Gentoo very often. It's a very pleasant distro to work with. Very flexible and such. I think they will straighten things out soon. Maybe some developers leave forever, no biggy. That's how things work. There are hundreds of developers left to take up the work of the onces who leave.
90 • Include Minix - a nobrainer (by nodekeeper on 2006-06-27 08:49:36 GMT from Salt Lake City, United States)
While there may be hesitation to include Minix because it may be thought to open the floodgates to other similar requests, I think a sense of perspectective needs to be maintained here, as this is a very unique case.
First, the request is not being made by a relative unknown. It is being made by Andrew Tanenbaum, which was/is a very respected name before Linus came along, and there are those of us who were exploring minix before Linux even existed. He has authored numerous respected texts and papers in the computer science field and is a leading professor/reseacher into operating systems. This fact alone should carry considerable weight. I have never met Mr. Tanebaum, but have read his writings both on computer science and off topic matters. These clearly show that he is personable and a very forward thinking person (though you or I may not always agree with him - but that could be said for anybody here).
Secondly, for those that say that Minix is "just a historical OS" know not what they speak. Besides the microkernal architecture, there are other ideas that Mr. Tanenbaum is working on (like transparency - not of the rendering kind) that are at the very cutting edge and Minix will be a platform for where those ideas come to light and be practically implemented.
Thirdly, The open source community needs to think strategically and stop playing "catch up" trying to implement ideas proffered by Microsoft or Apple, and break out with new features that will encourage developers to write software for which will bring along new users to open source. Any little advantage that open source software can garner needs to be taken to break Microsoft's "windows wasteland" or Apple's "hardware lock-in." Minix is one such (large) opportunity, esp with more community involvement.
Fourth, anything, and I do mean anything, that encourages device driver development with alternative OS as I am sure Minix will, in turn will flow over to Linux and help with it as well. Besides the Win32 API, this is Microsoft's other stranglehold that needs to be broken. It can not be under-stressed how important this is, especially with the casual end-user. Their hardware needs to work if they are going to move into an alternative OS (no matter what it is). More device drivers bodes well for all projects here.
Fifth, Minix will attract programmers that other projects normally would not (such as myself) for the above reasons. My main interest is low-level device drivers. I have been a long time Distrowatch reader and don't normally browse the news page, but headed right here when I saw the blurb about Minix. It's my first post. I think Donald Knuth would be the other person who would encourage me to post.
I could go on, but Minix easily clears the bar to be included here.
91 • Yes to Minux3 on Distrowatch (by Sef on 2006-06-27 11:17:18 GMT from , Korea, Republic of)
The minimum requirements would make it a good basic operating system for those wo have older systems and can't afford to upgrade. In Ubuntu, Biltong discussed how the standard pc was a 386 and 16 mb ram. Here is the link: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=168304&highlight=16+mb+ram+Africa
92 • Minix is needed to keep "old" machines NEW (by Gabriel on 2006-06-27 13:04:54 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
I'm really disappointed that Ladislav decided not to feature Minix3 on Distrowatch. At the same time, he has my full sympathy for the reasons(lack of time and resources)behind his decision. However, i really hope Minix eventualy finds its place on Distrowatch.
As i have stated on my previous posting, i have researched and tried a dozen Linux distros(STX, Easys, Beatrix, FoxDesktop, PCLinux, DamnSmall, Vector, and more) , which cliamed to be running on old harwdware. I have also searched and dried BSD distros(except NetBSD). I have an old toshiba laptop(P-I) and many old desktops(at my local Community Center) ranging from Pentium-MMX to P-III and P4. And i wanted to replace Windowz9X on these relatively old machine with a Linux distro to NO avail--despite the fact there are more than 200 distros are out there!
This is sad. Because there should be at least a few Linux distros that could help people to replace Windoaz still running on their old machine. And there are millions of people around the world who still use P-Is and P-IIs and P-IIIs, as they either cannot afford to buy a new machine, or simply(like me) don't want to give up on their old computers, which are fine for almost all basic computing tasks: Word processing, surfing the net, emailing, playing music, etc.
Minix as well as Syllable OS, aren't fully developed OpSystems yet. Despite that, they could handle(provided they recognize the hardware...)most of the above-described tasks, requested by average PC users around the world. And unlike, Win9X(which could also run on old hardware); Minux and Syllable are better than Windowz9X in that they are: Virtually crash-proof >>Much faster>>Support(or willing to support) emerging gadgets and peripherals, >> Waste few system resources, as a result keep my cute old toshiba lap(P-I) run for more than 2 hours on batteries, whereas Win98 could barely allow me to do so for more than 45 minutes--if not less.
Anyway, to make an argument in favour of Minux(and Syllable for the same reasons) short; i hope that these two OSystems eventually will be given the place they deserve on Distrowatch BECAUSE currently these are really the only OSystems that could keep the "old" comptures NEW.
93 • MINIX (by Eraldo Pereira Marinho on 2006-06-27 13:09:05 GMT from Rio De Janeiro, Brazil)
I agree with Andy it should be include in Distrowatch since its from where Linux came and we own him some respect.
MINIX ROX!
94 • MINIX (by Jean Béliveau on 2006-06-27 13:21:42 GMT from Trois-Rivires, Canada)
I strongly agree to include MINIX on DistroWatch
First to honor the OS used by Linus Torvalds as a platform, guide, and inspiration to develop Linux.
Also it fair agree Andy Tanenbaum demand in consideration of his declarations on the intellectual property rights of Linux.
MINIX is a good option in some situations.
MINIX licence is free and open, the develepment is active, and users are happy.
So, please include MINIX on DistroWatch.
95 • Minix (by Anonymous on 2006-06-27 16:05:59 GMT from So Paulo, Brazil)
It is released under what/which license?
Is it free as in beer and/or free as in speech?
96 • Resources are always a limiting factor (by Claus Futtrup on 2006-06-27 16:14:02 GMT from Tranbjerg, Denmark)
The Minix suggestion raises the question, how much Linux or Linux related should a distro be to be considered for Distrowatch? (Linux as a whole OS project has borrowed stuff from BSD, so the relation is there). Considering Minix is an option - but also raises the question on workload.
Maybe Distrowatch has enough influence these days, that a certain newsfeed could be required for acceptance on the Distrowatch pages (either RSS or other modern stuff, or a certain URL address or perhaps a sub-frame with news) since one primary problem regarding expansion of the list of distros is the workload it will be desirable to increase the amount of automation.
Now, I don't think Ladislav Bodnar would have suggested Minix unless he felt that it could be overcomed - this is not a specific suggestion. Requirements for projects to be included would be a great solution. Just an idea.
97 • Linux losing it? (by Milt Slyder on 2006-06-27 17:20:19 GMT from Lakeland, United States)
What is happening? Linux WAS fun. Now there seems to be who can outdo who competition. I was a great Suse proclaimer but with the 10.1 problems it's like, gotta get a new one out there so fast to keep up.
I see problems if it gets to much like that. Just give me a good stable NOT BROKEN distro and I'm happy. I don't mind paying as I did with Suse 10.0.
And now Xandros, which I've used and like, is going the way of you know who?
Puuuuhhhhlleeeeeeeze. Why is Linux trying to keep up with those who need the shiniest and newest whatever. A good steady, stable, easy to use desktop will slowly get the converts in. Don't ruin it with competition over the bells and whistles.
98 • Minix et al. (by Andrew on 2006-06-27 17:47:26 GMT from Red Deer, Canada)
I suggest the inclusion of Minix as well as other projects such as FreeDOS, ReactOS, Haiku and other open BeOS derivatives, etc. but as previously mentioned, this would increase the difficulty of a viewer new to Linux in finding The Perfect Distro. Therefore, I recommend setting up a branch of the website dedicated to operating systems and distributions which are still in active development (i.e. not fully usable/somewhat broken) such as SymphonyOS. This "developer's corner" would have a separate main page and tracker(s) but there would only be one DW Weekly. Thus, since the majority of the aformentioned other operating systems are still at least partially broken, the list of Linux distributions that one is able to actually use on a daily basis would not become a minority unless it genuinely deserved to be. Of course, this could require a great deal of work on Ladislav's part, and it might be necessary to recruit a few volunteers to help at the start.
Would this be at all workable?
99 • Minix (by DigitalVampire on 2006-06-27 20:17:00 GMT from Birmingham, United States)
Andy Tanenbaum...that name sounds so familiar...oh that's right. He's the guy who said that Linus's operating system concept (Linux) was a waste of time due to that fact that uses a macrokernel...and now he wants his OS to be right there with Linus'. Hahaha Well, since he is a big joke to the open source community, I think he's taken enough abuse. Bring on Minix.
100 • Minix free as in free (by Ariszló on 2006-06-27 21:33:32 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
Anonymous from São Paulo asks:
It is released under what/which license?
Is it free as in beer and/or free as in speech?
It has a BSD-style license:
http://www.minix3.org/license.html
Free both as in free beer and as in free speech but without any kernel module issues.
101 • #100 (by Anonymous on 2006-06-27 22:05:06 GMT from Rio De Janeiro, Brazil)
Thank You Ariszló.
I'm downloading it.
102 • Linus working on a free Minix lookalike (by Ariszló on 2006-06-27 22:11:23 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
Here are two quotes from comp.os.minix to justify the inclusion of Minix at DistroWatch, imho:
1. Linus Benedict Torvalds, August 25, 1991
I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones. This has been brewing
since april, and is starting to get ready. I'd like any feedback on
things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it somewhat
(same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons)
among other things).
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/b813d52cbc5a044b
2. Linus Benedict Torvalds, October 5, 1991
As I mentioned a month(?) ago, I'm working on a free version of a
minix-lookalike for AT-386 computers. It has finally reached the stage
where it's even usable (though may not be depending on what you want),
and I am willing to put out the sources for wider distribution.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/2194d253268b0a1b
103 • Volunteers??? (by Buster Ellis on 2006-06-27 23:01:32 GMT from York Mills, Canada)
Many people suggested they would like to see the extra operating systems included, but I didn't notice any of these people offering to do some of the tedious work involved.
Also I suspect that most of the people who come to this site are interested in reasonably developed desktop systems that they can use, not systems that are for 'learning'. Minix has had quite a bit of free publicity this week. Maybe when lots of people are downloading and using it the question can come up again.
104 • GPL violations (by Anonymous on 2006-06-27 23:55:11 GMT from Rio De Janeiro, Brazil)
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4218186268.html
105 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 00:25:34 GMT from Lithonia, United States)
Yes! Please include MINIX for monitoring by Distrowatch.
Thanks!
106 • Other OSs - Redistribution of work? (by raymond on 2006-06-28 02:05:41 GMT from Forestville, Australia)
I too would like to see more info on other OSs like beOS, DOS, Windows-derived. Because I still use Windows programs, and have a TV card that only works with Windows and BeOS - not LInux, so I am keen to still use these OSs. If it is difficult to include other OSs due to workload I suggest a redistribution of workload like the following:
* Track the Linux, BSD, Solaris OSs, but only provide a brief 3/6/12-monthly update on the other OSs development on a separate page.
Or
* Reduce the tracking of the Linux, BSD, Solaris OSs to just the major updates (the small ".01" updates often seem unnecessary to list). Then devote the time saved to providing brief updates on the other OSs on a separate page.
107 • Oy, give me a break! (by Shaggy on 2006-06-28 03:54:02 GMT from Bloomfield Hills, United States)
Do NOT include minix!
This site should be focused around distros that are USABLE. While MINIX is _technically_ usable, for the average joe, and even for your LPI cert'ed admin, Minix is not an option. Packages? Very few... You want something like amarok or xmms? You're gonna have to recode parts of the source yourself just so you can compile them. Same goes for Apache, PHP, MySQL, for web browsers, for games, commercial software, PDF readers, etc. FOR THE MODERN USER TODAY, MINIX IS BARELY USABLE. WHILE FUNCTIONAL, IT DOES NOT FULFILL A USER'S NEEDS.
I do not care about the interest of democracy on this site. Are we to include Windows, because, technically, the source is available? Are we to include OS X because it's unix-based? Or is it like this: "oh, no, no, we'll stick *strictly* to free operating systems!" Really? Then why aren't we putting up a discontinued page for the MS backup floppies which have DOS on them?!?!
Two people suggested BeOS? Give me a break! That's proprietary software! Do you understand the words coming out of my mouth? Should I spell it out for you letter by letter? It's propriety software! Meaning you _can't see the source!_ Solaris was only put on here because it went open source on us? But BeOS? Which was not only proprietary, but is now DEAD??? This is a news site! Not a historical reserve! No, this is not the time to hijack the site and turn it into a paleontological park for the ancient bones of OS development to lie out and rot in the sun! There will never be a time for that!
BeOS? Seriously. BeOS??? Part of the reason Ladislav's considering including Minix is because it's still under active development. He didn't say "Hey guys, why don't we turn this into a history book of every unix derivative!" But... hey, wait... AtheOS is GPL, right! Let's include that! It's kind of like linux.. kind of! But hey... it's GPL!
"Yeah, but it's dead!"
"Oh, fine, then do syllable!"
"But... but..."
"Hey, it's free, okay! Do syllable!"
This site wasn't created to be an archive of data about every operating system but Windows and Mac. It wasn't even created to be an archive of data about every free operating system on the planet! It was created as a simple way to navigate some info about, and see news about linux distros. BSD and Solaris were included as special exceptions because the linux community had their chocolate very much in BSD and Solaris' Peanut butter... eg. the linux community was very involved in BSD and Solaris, too. They were not included because the OSes fit some general magical rule which qualified them to be on the site, and that magical rule now suddenly fits every other free or free-at-some-point operating system too. No.
The linux community is not very active in Minix. The linux community is not very active in BeOS. The linux community is not very active in AtheOS or Syllable. Sure, there may be a handful of people who *use* those operating systems, but the coverage is not so grand and widespread as to merit a special exception just for them, nevertheless an entire restructuring of the site's idea just for the sake of their inclusion. This site is good. There's no need to muddle it up with all these small time, obscure, non-linux related OSes. There is no justification for including them on an historical basis (this was never a history site). There is no justification for including them on a democracy or diversity basis (this was never an every-free-operating-system-gets-a-vote site nor an encyclopedia of free OSes, this site was never anything like that, it was always centrally about linux news). There is no justification for including them on the basis of precedence (BSD and Solaris are only included on this site as special exceptions because of their widespread use within the linux community).
Not the sake of preserving history, nor the encouraging of a diversity of knowledge, nor the desire to uphold democracy in every corner of the universe, nor the precedent of site action justify the inclusion of Minix or any other non-linux non-BSD non-solaris based OS on this site. It is silly to pretend they do. There is no real reason to include Minix on this site other than out of a strong community support for it (which it does not have), or out of personal desire on Ladislav's part to do so (he's the lord and master, so he gets to make any decision he wants).
Case closed.
Man, I'm such a snob.
108 • MINIX (by woody on 2006-06-28 03:56:25 GMT from , Korea, Republic of)
Welcome aborad! MINIX
109 • 107 (by AC on 2006-06-28 04:23:01 GMT from , United States)
It would make sense, if we were to retroactively create a "magic rule", to include only Free (as in speech), actively developed, Unix-like operating systems. That would include Minix, as well as the systems covered here presently, but exclude, e.g. FreeDOS, BeOS, OS X, et al, which is not a criticism of those systems, merely a drawing of boundaries that have to be drawn someplace
But the only real "magic rule" should be Ladislav's judgement about what is consistent with the goals of this site and possible given his time and resources.
110 • Short-sighted shaggy (by nodekeeper on 2006-06-28 04:29:10 GMT from Salt Lake City, United States)
Shaggy, be a real poster and post your email at Microsoft so we can contact you. I'm glad that your short-sighted troll opinion is in the *extreme* minority. Minix would be good as it would bring more people into the community. Nobody is talking about beos or anything else, just Minix.
111 • Re: 45 • Minix and others (by Ariszló on 2006-06-28 06:03:33 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
I like Steff's criteria: an OS is tracked if A. is relevant (mature to be usable at least as an experiment: it boots, runs a reasonable number of apps etc...) B. is interesting (is not a pure vanity project and adds something to the community) and C. Is in some way Linux-UNIX related. This would lead to include Minix, but exclude the various Haku, Zeta (no C.), Hurd (no A)
D. Add F/OSS to exclude SCO Unix, Mac OS X or SkyOS.
112 • Relaxing D (by Ariszló on 2006-06-28 06:54:41 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
I mean an OS with a free kernel. I still wish to get informed about Linspire or Xandros
113 • MINIX #107 (by Winfried on 2006-06-28 08:28:40 GMT from Ismaning, Germany)
Shaggy is 100% right. We are talking LINUX here and nothig else - period.
114 • OK FORGET Minix---IF U COULD TELL US A DISTRO, AS AN ALTERNATIVE. (by Gabriel on 2006-06-28 08:36:52 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
The ONLY reason i (and most other people-Post#91) who favour the inclusion of Minix on Distrowatch is because it HAS minimum system requirements and as such, it would make a good basic operating system for those who have older systems and can't afford to upgrade or simply do not want to give up their perfectly working old computers.
Therefore, i, kindly, invite those who are against Minix inclusion(or Syllable's for that matter) on DW, to reffer us a Linux distro, which could run on (at least) a P-I with 32 MB of RAM and 1GB of storage space.
Please don't tell me about STX, Easys, Beatrix, FoxDesktop, PCLinux, DamnSmall, Vector, Cobind, Puppy, KateOS, Zenwalk etc, plus various BSD distros, BECAUSE i have tried them all and they all are nice distros. However, NONE of them could run a machine with above-described stats and resources. And this is really sad, because Vole's Win98(which i dislike) perfectly can run on such systems with minimum RAM and storage.
I patiently wait for your responses. At the same time, i hope some coders out there take an inspiration about all these arguments started by Minix, and develop a truly SUPER LITE LINUX distro, which can power and keep old machines alive and kicking.
115 • PROPOSAL FOR A DISTROWATCH CHANGE OF THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD "DISTRO" (by distromaniac at 2006-06-28 09:07:15 GMT from Chicago, United States)
in that which concerns distrowatch, it is certainly not "linux" (and bsd) that DEFINES an open source "distribution". it is the fact that everything can be "distributed" and "redistributed" by anybody that DEFINES an open source distribution. hence, "distribution".
even bsd's abstinence in using "distribution" is obsolete: now there actually are some distros of each bsd "flavour", and i am sure there will soon be more. as soon as an os is open sourced, it can be forked into an indefinite number of "distros", so it becomes subject for distrowatch. this is what a distro is: merely a result of some os being open sourced.
thus, distrowatch should not be about "use linux", nor should it be about "use linux, bsd"! not anymore! so, in order to preserve its integrity or consistency, distrowatch should redefine "distro" as meaning <>
and this is what a distro pragmatically means to just about everybody already anyway.
116 • PROPOSAL FOR A DISTROWATCH CHANGE OF THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD "DISTRO" (by distromaniac on 2006-06-28 09:09:52 GMT from Chicago, United States)
SORRY! THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE, CORRECTED:
in that which concerns distrowatch, it is certainly not "linux" (and bsd) that DEFINES an open source "distribution". it is the fact that everything can be "distributed" and "redistributed" by anybody that DEFINES an open source distribution. hence, "distribution".
even bsd's abstinence in using "distribution" is obsolete: now there actually are some distros of each bsd "flavour", and i am sure there will soon be more. as soon as an os is open sourced, it can be forked into an indefinite number of "distros", so it becomes subject for distrowatch. this is what a distro is: merely a result of some os being open sourced.
thus, distrowatch should not be about "use linux", nor should it be about "use linux, bsd"! not anymore! so, in order to preserve its integrity or consistency, distrowatch should redefine "distro" as meaning ///any working "distribution" of any operating system that is open source and (thus?) freely (re)distributable///
and this is what a distro pragmatically means to just about everybody already anyway.
117 • FOR LADISLAV (by terry on 2006-06-28 09:39:57 GMT from , Germany)
if you didn't want to include MINIX anyway, why did you ask us about it then?
then again, since so many of us said yes, why do you stick to your former decision? it looks like you're playing with us.
i am not being aggressive, i am just teasing you: please, ladislav, change your mind! INCLUDE MINIX! and hire somebody if it's harder and harder for you to maintain the site all by yourself.
distrowatch deserves to include a representative of the world of microkernel-based "distributions". MINIX deserves it, too.
a big THANK YOU from all of us ;)
(i hope i manipulated you well enough)
118 • Why I should include my e-mail. (by Shaggy on 2006-06-28 09:45:01 GMT from Bloomfield Hills, United States)
So you can flame me. Good idea. This is why I should include my e-mail. So I can get strangers from the internet sending me hatemail. That's nice. I love you too, Nodekeeper.
Oh yeah, and by the way. Two people mentioned BeOS before I first posted. Just search the page. So the claim that "nobody is talking about BeOS" is... untrue.
Besides... if we did include minix, and start including other free operating systems as under Steff's criteria thar, what we put at the top? "Put the fun back into computing... use a vaguely linux-related operating system!"
So far I've seen two people here who have actually used minix. I don't think that means that two out of every 120 people use minix. I think that just means that of all the people who have seen this news article over the last few days, maybe 39 or 40 use minix. I figure that if 20 people like it enough to use it consistently, then at least 1 of them must like it enough to argue its inclusion or use. Now according to alexa.com, the daily reach of distrowatch is ~205 million unique visitors. 205 million of those. Now this post has been up for about two days now. Even assuming that those 205 million are the same people visiting every day, and not just 300-600 million people visiting sporadically, but being conservative as we can, and saying that over the last 2.5 days, it's only been 205 million different people whose eyes have glanced over these news... even if we have 40 minix people, heck, let's be nice, let's say that 50 minix users visit distro watch over the course of 2.5 days (that's how long it's taken them to make two comments), that's still only 1 out of every four million visitors who actually uses minix. That's 0.00000025% percent of visitors! One out of every four million people will have a genuine concern with minix news. I'm not saying we should judge all our distros based on popularity and drop out those who don't pass a certain threshold. I'm just saying that if we're going to be making a change to the nature of the site to appease the needs a minority audience, that minority audience probably ought to have more than one person for every, say, two million who visit the site. That's all.
119 • MINIX #113 (by Ariszló on 2006-06-28 09:48:44 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
Winfried wrote: We are talking LINUX here and nothig else - period.
Wrong. BSDs are not Linux. Solaris is not Linux either.
120 • Discussion of possible new Distribution Category (by Ken on 2006-06-28 10:34:27 GMT from Ipswich, United Kingdom)
I have installed and used a number of distributions, usually on laptops. I'm still searching for my ideal, with DSL being my favorite of the last year or more. My laptops are usually not the latest but not completely antique, being 4 or 5 years old.
Problems are generally around finding device drivers, getting the display just right, installing without a bootable CD-ROM drive and making the best use of hard drive and memory.
I was wondering if you might introduce a category for distributions which consider themselves laptop friendly, having a wide range of drivers, good hardware detection, a tight set of packages in the base install but easy installation of others?
121 • Thanks Ladislav for finding my suggestion interesting and Applying it so quick! (by Angel-Fr@gzilla on 2006-06-28 11:11:15 GMT from Bruxelles, Belgium)
!
Big thank's to Ladislav for finding my suggestion interesting, and Applying it so quick! And also thanks to all the readers, that thought it was interesting, for seconding my suggestion.
I am happy to see that now I can check the evolution of all active Distros in the Blink of an eye, in just one page ( http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity )
I guess this will be in the benefit of all, Distros and readers...
I think i'm a bit hooked on Distrowatch. Everyday, when I wake up, the first think I do is to check it, for the news about distros, at the same time that I check the Digital Newspaper's News.
I have some other ideas that may be interesting. I will hang them here, although I will probably contact you, Ladislav, in the near future, in order to explain them more clearly!
Thanks.
Angel-Fr@gzilla
.
122 • 114 (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 11:51:16 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"I patiently wait for your responses. At the same time, i hope some coders out there take an inspiration about all these arguments started by Minix, and develop a truly SUPER LITE LINUX distro, which can power and keep old machines alive and kicking."
A coder code for:
a- fun / self-improvement / educational purpose
b- fulfil self neeeds
c- job / money
It's kind of "show me the money and I'll show you the code"!
:-)
123 • lin4oldcomputers (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 12:12:42 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
TomsRtBt runs on every trashware:
http://www.toms.net/rb/download.html
124 • more on old hardware (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 12:20:45 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
For an old hw You MUST choose an old distro.
You do not run winXP on old hw -> you run old win9x or maybe win3.x.
The same for linux.
Choose/pick an 10 yrs old distro and all will be just fine!
It's unfair blame new distros and do not blame new windows (vista, xp) for not running on old hw.
125 • Adventures with Slackware Linux on a Low Memory Laptop (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 12:51:32 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://mark.stosberg.com/Tech/slackware_on_lowlap.html
Adventures with Slackware Linux on a Low Memory Laptop
by Mark Stosberg
This Christmas it was my turn to meet my partner's extended family. To cope with spending a week with many new people in a strange new land, I created a creature comfort to take with me-- A Linux laptop. Geeks read on.
I was able to borrow an abandoned Acer 760ic laptop for this purpose. Here are the basic specs of the machine as I received it:
Memory: 8 Megs
Processor: 75 Megs
Hard Drive: 400 Megs
Ports: Video, Serial, Parallel, two PCMCIA slots
I soon discovered the model could accommodate a whole 20 Megs of RAM. I found the RAM upgrade at Kahlon.com for $12 and ordered it. However, I went ahead and setup the machine with the eight Megs I have. (As of this writing, I haven't received and installed the new memory yet.)
(...)
126 • Thanx for ALL responses to my Minix postings (by Gabriel on 2006-06-28 15:01:54 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
Here are a few comments and big THANX for a few people, who took their time to comment on my Posting #114.
But first, i would like to submit a big thank to Ken(post#120, from UK) for suggesting the following super GREAT idea:
" I was wondering if you might introduce a category for distributions which consider themselves laptop friendly, having a wide range of drivers, good hardware detection, a tight set of packages in the base install but easy installation of others?"
The idea of having a category for "laptop--friendly distros" is indeed a super great idea! Because having such a category alone could encourage development of such distros, which could save thousands of cute old laptops becoming history.
>>And now here's my ANSWER for this good coder in Brazil(Post#122):
-- You go ahead and develop a real lite distro(primarily for good old laptops) and i promise to be the first to buy it from you and encourage and guarntee at least 20 other people to do so :-)
Viva Brazil! Viva World Cup!
>>As for posting#123; THANX for the suggestion:-) But unfortunetaley old distros would not be useful, because they're very unlikely to support the latest peripherals, such as iPods,cell phones, USB gadgets, cell phones, and more.
>>Posting#125, THANX for the link, which i just checked out and i will try to install it as soon as possible :-)
Meanwhile, I just downloaded PLD (the installation version) from http://pld-linux.org , but i have yet to try it out. It sounds like it will work and i'm going to cross my finger :-)
127 • Minix (by warpengi on 2006-06-28 15:14:35 GMT from Calgary, Canada)
I for one have come to the conclusion that it is a good thing not to include Minix. For the most part those who had concerns about its inclusion have made thoughtful and meaningful comments. The supporters have, by a large majority here, been of the sort "Yes include Minix please" without any meaningful commentary.
Added to this is my recall of some of the controversies between Andrew Tannenbaum and Linus. In those AT has come across as an arrogant, self-promoting dweeb. LT is anything but as most of us are aware.
Minix has its place in the OS world and it is useful for some, there is no doubt. It does not belong on Distrowatch. While many Linux distros may be homebrew or of limited interest they are based on Linux which has made itself useful in the server rooms of home hobbyists to fortune 500 companies and everything in between. The BSDs can also claim that range of usefulness so they have found a place here too. When Minix can show that it has several forks and is used in production environments and not just the classroom and the hobbyists garage then there can be a place for it here.
Did I mention that Andy Tannenbaum is an arrogant, self-promoting dweeb? He has his own particualr axe to grind vis a vis microkernel architecture and while that may be useful for educational purposes it has only seen implementation outside the classroom in hybrid micro/macro kernels. Lets keep Distrowatch for useful OSs.
128 • Minix (by welkiner on 2006-06-28 16:07:18 GMT from Los Angeles, United States)
I used Minix back in the early 90s before Deb, Slack, and RH were available, but before this discussion I was not aware of Minix3. From my first lookover, it looks useful and relevant to me, so I will definitely be trying it. Thanks for the info.
If there was no Minix, there would be no Linux,
and for that I will be forever greatfull to Andy Tannenbaum and Linus Torvalds.
Also, thank you Ladislav Bodnar for this great website.
wb
129 • MIMIX - Low end Laptop (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 16:11:15 GMT from Rancho Palos Verdes, United States)
By the time MIMIX will be usable it would require many, many micro kernals to do anything useful and would probably take more than 32mb to run.
The better solution would be to create a swap partion on the hard drive to use as a ram disk, only about 128mb is required for most light weight distros.
The next best solution would be to buy a compact flash PCMCIA adaptor card in the laptop with a 128mb or 256mb compact flash card and use it as the ram disk (swap).
This has worked for me in the past. But with 32mb you may need a older version of the distro or try thin puppy. I think puppy is up to 40mb-48mb as a bare minimum in the latest version.
130 • 126 - Gabriel (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 16:38:54 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"-- You go ahead and develop a real lite distro(primarily for good old laptops) and i promise to be the first to buy it from you and encourage and guarntee at least 20 other people to do so :-) "
Unfortunately I'm not a coder or a UGU (Unix GUru).
Perhaps lfs (http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ ) could help you.
131 • 126 - Gabriel / part 2 (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 16:41:29 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://www.apcstart.com/site/admin/2006/06/498/roll-your-own-linux-for-and-against
132 • Minix - stop attacking the messenger (by nodekeeper on 2006-06-28 16:52:21 GMT from Salt Lake City, United States)
While many here diss Minix for one reason or another, Netcraft confirms that the monolithic Linux kernel is bloated. I really do not expect people to put swap partitions on their hard drives on slow hardware because all that means is a continuous thrashing of their slow hard drive. It really is a very poor bandaid. A decent operating system for low end hardware is very much needed.
And for those who attack Andrew Tanenbaum as a dweeb or as bad for disagreeing with the almighty Linus on a technical issue seem to forget the many fractures that the Linux community has had with their own "difficult personalities" and is being highly judgemental here. In fact, read this thread from the start. These same people have not also authored the same number of (or even one) book(s). The ones that attack him here are not his peers by any extent of the imagination.
Are people here so blind that they can't see their own arrogance?? Is Linux such a "special little club" that no outsiders with differing technical opinions or backgrounds or projects are not allowed??
133 • About Including Minix (by Ned on 2006-06-28 17:40:18 GMT from Wien, Austria)
I absolutely support Ladislavs decision - historical merits are not enough to include an OS here. Anyone remember Yggdrasil? That would merit an inclusion then, too ...
Of course it would be different if Minix would be a actual working OS, which people are using to do something besides learning about operating sytems. If this should ever be the case, then one could talk about including it, but at the moment it's not worth discussing.
134 • Linux on a 486 (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 17:43:12 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://www.ipt.ntnu.no/~knutb/linux486/linux486.html
Linux on a 486
This started out of curiosity, to see if it is possible to use an old 486 as an X-terminal. This is indeed possible, and as I found out, it is possible to run a lightweight Linux desktop. The PC in question is a no-name 66 MHz 486 with 32 MB memory, a vl-bus Tseng ET4000-W32 display card and two hard disks (250 and 420 MB). I have looked at a few lightweight distributions and applications using this PC:
135 • blueflops (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 17:45:49 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://blueflops.sourceforge.net/
blueflops is a two floppies Linux distribution with a graphical web browser ("links" using svgalib) and an IRC client (rhapsody).
Minimum requirements:
-i386 processor
-16 MB RAM (OK, you can use it with 8 megs and swap space if you're desperate)
136 • muLinux (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 17:47:46 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://mulinux.dotsrc.org/
What is MuLinux
muLinux is a minimalistic Linux distribution, suitable for old computers. X11, GCC, VNC, SSH, Samba, Netscape etc. are supported on additional addon floppies. It can be installed from DOS/Win9x or Linux, without repartitioning.
137 • Re #114 - Tiny Linux distro wanted as an alternative to Minix (by rglk on 2006-06-28 17:52:13 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Try RIP (with or w/o X window system), INSERT, Feather, Austrumi, Luit, Slax Popcorn, Slax Frodo, and let us know whether any of them work on your system. You may also want to try older versions of these (e.g. INSERT v.1.2.14).
Also search http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php
for small Linux distros (click on Min in the ISO size column).
Robert
138 • minimal (by Eric on 2006-06-28 20:14:20 GMT from Willowdale, Canada)
Well there is a Distrowatch page concerning minimalist type distro's (http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=links) and it also happens to mention MINIX.
139 • inclusiveness vs linux biased -- minix (by Michael Dean on 2006-06-28 20:25:14 GMT from Emeryville, United States)
I vote on the side of more inclusiveness, hence would opt to include minix, or any other distribution request. The establishment of a clear and minimal set of objective criteria for inclusion would be a real improvement, rahter than decisions based on opinion or one person's take.
140 • Operating systems for old computers (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 21:01:14 GMT from Honolulu, United States)
BeOS runs fine in 32MB of RAM. I used to develop in it on my Mac with only 32MB of RAM.
Too bad Be, Inc. didn't Open Source the BeOS before they went out of business, but you can download the live CD/installer from sites such as http://www.beosmaxfiles.org/
The BeOS is showing its age because it hasn't been updated in many years... but it is blazingly fast on old hardware and it does give the user a very nice user experience... In general a much better experience than the minimalistic linux distros. There are recent ports of Firefox and SeaMonkey to BeOS. The web browsers are probably memory hungry like the Windows/Linux ports though.
141 • About the Old 486 and 586 PCs and Linux Distros ! (by Angel-Fr@gzilla on 2006-06-28 21:24:59 GMT from Bruxelles, Belgium)
!
What is necessary for the old PCs is a Distro with, probably a 2.4 kernel, and running some light, if possible, but modern applications. Running the programs of a distro of 4, 6, or 8 years ago is not the solution! 2.4 kernels are being updated also and taking many of the features of the 2.6 new kernels, and are lighter...
Because of the nature of the opensource-Free Software it can be done.
It should include a modern Internet navigator, e-mail client, images viewer, image modiffier, office applications (if possible a complete suite lightened: kOffice, Gnome Office, SIAG Office, or even -why not- think of Open Office), and the maximum of multimedia applications, and othe programs...
A size between 150 and 350 Mb of space should be ok to make a decent distro and still be able to be used in old Hard Disks of 250-512 Mb
Yes I know, you can NOT watch a DVD in a 486; but a 486 DX2-66 or DX4-100 it's just enough to play an "ogg" music file, and some video formats...
It can be done out of Sackware, Debian or Gentoo, o Linux from Scratch...
Some projects start with something like that, but since they fell there is no commercial possiblilities or not enough backing from the community, the do not progress enough!
Still there are plenty of Old PCs in the world that could still be used, even in the developped countries...
Someone should take a project like that, for pleasure and finnish a decent Distro, really usable as a today's Desktop PC in a 486 and Pentium I-AMD k5, with about 32 Mb (or more... - Its is easier and better to refurbish an old PC out of two of three PCs making a good one usable with more memory, hard disk etc, than having several old PCs useful for nothing...)
While this happens I can only say that probably people should try UTUTO in their Old PCs; I have the intention to do it in a 486 and Pentium i, but had not time yet...
UTUTO-e is a high performance desktop system based on Gentoo Linux designed to be used by home/office users, developers, organisations and government users. Ututo is based exclusively on Free/Libre Software.
There are many ISOs, with differenet versions COMPILED for specific processors. Although I have not seen just now the 486 version in the Ututo site, I am positive that there are 486, and Pentium I ISOs in the servers and Mirrors of the Distro; Last version is of April or May 2006.
So, in theory, you can ge a precompiled Gentoo for a 486 !!!
Check https://www.ututo.org/www/
There are compilations for
i486
i586
i586/MMX
i686
Pentium1
Pentium3
Pentium4
Duron
Athlon XP
Athlon MP
K8 [Athlon64 / Opteron]
Intel64 [P4 / Xeon64]
There are also a project in Spain of a Distro for Old 486, and Pentium one, I think is in the waiting list of DistroWatch (not sure). I do not remember the name now!
Mail me if you are really interested and when I find the name i'll let you know :)
You can also try STIX, feather or featherweigh and many others and see if they work ok in your 486 machine ...
Angel-Fr@gzilla
.
142 • minix-3 (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 21:28:59 GMT from Pittsburgh, United States)
Minix-3 is not a distribution in the same sense that Red Hat and OpenBSD are distributions. Minix is an academic project used for learning about operating systems.
Your favorite programs will NOT run on it... in fact, nothing runs on it unless it's been hand-tweaked considerably. No IT department in the world supports it; businesses haven't heard of it. To compare it to a Linux distribution is absurd.
Your average newbie coming to distrowatch is looking for "real" distros that he can use on his real hardware, not research projects. Sometimes the two overlap-- but not in this case. And anyone who understands the realities of device drivers knows that minix has a long, long way to go before it can even support 1% of the hardware out there.
I think it's great that A.T. is working on this, but at this point in time, it doesn't really belong on this site. Maybe later, if it makes progress towards real-world use, it will.
- C.
143 • Minixmania (by linbetwin on 2006-06-28 21:40:34 GMT from Ploiesti, Romania)
Seriously, how many of you have ever seen even a single screenshot of Minix, you Minix minions?!
Proposal for new DW logo: DistroWatch - Put the fun back into computing. Use an operating system. Yes, ANY operating system.
144 • 141 Angel-Fr@gzilla (by Anonymous on 2006-06-28 22:11:03 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"if possible a complete suite lightened: kOffice, Gnome Office, SIAG Office, or even -why not- think of Open Office"
OOo is bloatware. For old hw abiword, ted, siag are better choices... Also vi! :-)
"It can be done out of Sackware, Debian or Gentoo, o Linux from Scratch..."
Or perhaps remastering knoppix to turn it in a leaner thing...
http://users.netwit.net.au/~pursang/lofat.html
"Building The Lo-Fat Linux Desktop"
145 • Minix & pc-bsd (by jimtho on 2006-06-29 03:31:24 GMT from Los Angeles, United States)
Been reading all the exchanges about Minix and im wondering why the download after unpacking is 408 meg . Seems its not so minimalistic at that rate and supposedly more packages can be installed , can anyone enlighten me as to why so mutch code for a project that does nothing?
Just in the off chance with so many posts this week im allso wondering if any one out there knows how to setup a ps2 optical scroll mouse on pc-bsd ? I cant believe they cant detect and setup this ordinary ps2 cable mouse. I tried tweaking the xwindow file and lost xwindows so it appears a bit touchy.
jim
146 • GPL Compliance vs. GPL Police (by Videoguy on 2006-06-29 03:58:55 GMT from Connersville, United States)
I must admit I am a bit surprised by the fervor of the Minix inclusion debate. Minix is already mentioned under the related links page on this site. Maybe just expanding its' coverage in its' present location would suffice.
It's a little disturbing that this weeks comments have focused so much on Minix when a potentially much larger issue seems to have been all but ignored. Namely, the GPL compliance of already listed "distros" featured on Distrowatch vs. an emerging perception of an overly aggressive "GPL police".
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating ignoring the GPL or any other licensing. I just hope the FSF doesn't wind up being an obstacle instead of fostering development.
http://software.newsforge.com/software/06/06/23/1728205.shtml
147 • DW Trivia (by rglk on 2006-06-29 04:44:04 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
I think the Minix inclusion debate is a tempest in the teapot. The most sensible words in it have been spoken by Anonymous in #142. That single post contains all that need to be said about it, and it should bury the issue.
More significant, in my mind, is the new Xandros 4 which is excellent and should put the usual noise makers (Ubuntu, SUSE, Fedora, Mandriva) that are all over DW all the time to shame. Aside from 3 or 4 posts plus Ladislav's review, nothing sensible or well-informed has been said so far about the Xandros release.
148 • the future is open source (by Raymond on 2006-06-29 06:02:15 GMT from Hillcrest, Australia)
By 2010 DW will be tracking 500+ Linux distros - most of which will be copies of copies of copies of X distro. At some point you're gonna have to decide what to track and what to prune. For my money it is more valuable to track serious open source projects - like innovative Linuxes, innovative BSDs, ReactOS, SymphonyOS, etc. - than distros that only provide package and wallpaper changes. The future is open source not just Linux.
149 • Xandros NOT news (by nodekeeper on 2006-06-29 06:55:52 GMT from Salt Lake City, United States)
DW Trivia, you seem to have missed that Xandros 4 now requires the same product like activation that Microsoft uses, which as other posters besides myself, find offensive. Other people are giving it mediocre reviews. I think a stand needs to be made on product activation and Xandros should be removed from DW.
150 • Xandros OUT (by Ian G on 2006-06-29 08:29:37 GMT from Hong Kong, Hong Kong)
nodekeeper, I second that motion.
151 • Re: Xandros NOT news (by Ariszló on 2006-06-29 08:56:12 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
It's not the same. Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xandros :
Another new feature in Xandros 4.0 is the use of a special "product activation code" similar to the Windows XP product activation code. However, unlike the Windows XP product activation code which is required in order to use Windows XP after 30 days, the Xandros product activation code is used to authorize a copy of Xandros to download programs and updates from Xandros Networks, Xandros' propietary apt-based download tool similar to Linspire's Click-N-Run.
152 • RE: Gabriel (by DerJamster on 2006-06-29 10:18:01 GMT from Waiblingen, Germany)
Gabriel wrote: 'Therefore, i, kindly, invite those who are against Minix inclusion(or Syllable's for that matter) on DW, to reffer us a Linux distro, which could run on (at least) a P-I with 32 MB of RAM and 1GB of storage space.'
Deli Linux. Ttylinux. Look them up. And I'm sure they're not the only ones out there made for that kind of hardware.
153 • Minix (by paiste2002 on 2006-06-29 16:09:02 GMT from Lancaster, United Kingdom)
I think Minix should be tracked like Linux/BSD . It is an interesting
project, has a different microkernel architecture and has been around for
nearly 20 years!
154 • Minix+ ATTENTION CODERS: a SUPER Lite Distro WANTED! (by Gabriel on 2006-06-29 17:12:07 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
If you really pause and think for a second and then read all the posts that have been written so far favouring Minix; you will see that most people(myself included) merely support Minix inclusion on Distrowatch BECAUSE it appears, besides DeliLinux, only one of the two Operating Systems, which could really keep old hardware(P-III & below) laptops and desktops alive and going.
In other words, it's not likely that so many people(again--myself included) would have cared to support Minix's application to be featured on DW if it wasn't because of the aforementioned factor. WHICH MEANS that there's a big demand for an xtra-lite OS or a distro for keeping old machines alive and kicking :-)
At this stage, DeLi Linux, is definitely a bit more advanced OS, than Minix, as DeLi Linux has more applications to use and it supports many more hardware parts. I have tried it on several different low-end laptops and desktops-- with the lowest being a 486 chunky machine and the highest being a cute P-II laptop with 64MB of RAM. For the most part, i could testify that DeLi Linux is a good OS for basic computing tasks. However, its apps are mostly outdated. Similarly, it considerably fails to recognize certain hardware parts at times. Most importantly, it can hardly support new peripherals and gadgets, such as various MP3 players(for example iPod), digitalCams, cellphones, USB devices and drives--such as my 2GB thumb drive made by OCZ :-)
I guess most of the above-stated handicaps exists in DeLi Linux because it's a VERY slow-going project run by only one good man; Henry Jensen, aka Haary, who, appears to, enjoy extensive vacations on the picturesque Turkish islands in the middle of the Mediterranean :-)
Perhaps we should send Haary a water--proof laptop, so that he could do coding to keep his DeLi Linux up-to-date for us, while he, at the same time, continues to enjoy fishing and drinking his beer in the middle of Med's blue waters :-)
Anyway, all that and Minix & DeLi Linux aside, let's really hope that some smart coders out there are reading all these postings..., therefore the need for a truly super-lite distro. Thus, let's --again -- hope that a few of those good coders soon will start the initative to develop such an xtra lite distro--preferably based on Ubuntu.
Why specifically Ubuntu? _Because Ubuntu is the fastest, hardware-friendliest and the most reliable distro of our time. Similarly, with its punctual releases so often; it's always up-to-date and it's very likely that it always will remain so. Accordingly, Ubuntu would make the best choice for using it as a base in creating a truly super lite distro, for powering to continue using thousands of perfectly working low-end laptops and desktops for many more years to come. And once, HOPEFULLY, such a distro is released, it shall have a $100.00 price tag -- and i shall be among the first people to, happily, buy it, besides encouraging, at least, 20 more people to do so.
CHEERS :-)
155 • Minix great for learning (by John Dudeck on 2006-06-29 19:32:25 GMT from Charlotte, United States)
When I studied Computer Science at California Polytechnic State Univ under Prof. Clint Staley, we had to read the ENTIRE source code of Minix from Tanenbaum's book, looking for bugs. I believe Minix is the only kernel/file system source code that is small enough to be studied in the college classroom.
As #142 said, it is a research project, not a distribution. The main reason for including it would be to make it easy to find, since DW is where we all come when we are looking for something.
156 • wtf (by AC on 2006-06-29 21:08:55 GMT from , United States)
Ubuntu may be hardware friendly... Kanotix and others make a good claim to that as well. But fastest? Most reliable? Have you never used Debian or Slackware?
157 • Re #149 - Xandros NOT news (by rglk on 2006-06-29 21:53:02 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
nodekeeper wrote:
"DW Trivia, you seem to have missed that Xandros 4 now requires the same product like activation that Microsoft uses, which as other posters besides myself, find offensive. Other people are giving it mediocre reviews. I think a stand needs to be made on product activation and Xandros should be removed from DW."
You seem to be very quick to take a sweeping stand based on ignorance or mere hearsay.
"Xandros 4 now requires the same product like activation that Microsoft uses ..."
Nonsense. The new Xandros 4 Home Edition ($40) and Home Edition Premium ($80) come with the stipulation that they may be installed on one computer used for business and an unlimited number of home computers. If you've got a dozen machines that you use at home but not for business, you have the right to install Xandros on all of these machines. Moreover, these installations are not monitored, you're on an honor's system, and you don't have to "activate" this software to be able to run it. You can also install Xandros 4 an unlimited number of times for home use.
The activation applies only to your capability of downloading additional packages and updates from the high bandwidth Xandros servers (which costs them money), either from a carefuly QA-controlled Xandros repository ("Xandros distribution site") that contains hundreds of free packages every one of which has been tested by Xandros for dependency problems to assure that it doesn't break your Xandros system or from a standard Debian sarge repository ("Debian unsupported site") that has the customary 10,000+ packages (also free) some of which could possibly break your system.
If you've stolen your copy of Xandros, you can still install Debian packages from servers other than Xandros' through apt-get or synaptic, taking a small risk of breaking your system. You just won't get updates or custom-packaged software from Xandros. I have to say though that I've used Xandros 2 and 3 for the past two years, and I've installed 200+ packages on top of the default install, practically all of which came from the Xandros "Debian unsupported repository", and I've never broken my system or had anything but the most minor problems, even without pinning my system.
I can imagine that Xandros has substantial losses from software thieves who pass around the full-blown Standard, Premium and Business Editions or download them via bittorrent and from freeloaders who install the free Open Circulation Edition (which is crippled in only one respect, i.e. it allows you to burn CD's only at 4x speed if you use the Xandros File manager for that) and then get around the CD burning limitation by installing a third party CD burning program, never actually buying the OS from Xandros. Plenty of these people show up at the Xandros users forum asking for free help.
Personally, I find the Microsoft Windows activation policy unpalatable but I have no qualms whatsoever about Xandros'. This is a small company with probably no more than a few dozen employees (my guess) that has put a great effort into making a superb product that in my mind beats most of the front runners on the DW hit list. I've put out the money for my copies of Xandros, and it's in my interest to see this company thrive rather than bleed to death and go under from theft and freeloading, forcing me then to find a new distro. I'm all for their kind of activation.
The $40 for the basic distro really is a pittance. You get a great deal of value added to the basic full-featured Debian sarge distro. And for an extra $40 you get a number of non-GNU proprietary features added that Xandros themselves have to pay licence fees for. One example is CodeWeavers' CrossOver which allows you to install and run Windows programs from within Xandros, voiding the necessity to dual-boot into Windows every time you want to run one of the few programs that you may still need Windows for. If you purchase Crossover separately rather than bundled with Xandros Premium, it'll cost you $40 alone.
To all the folks who want to excommunicate Xandros from DW because they violate the GPL, require an activation code and dare to charge money for free software (never mind all of Xandros' proprietory add-ons), why don't you complain about all the Linux Enterprise editions (Red Hat, SUSE, Mandriva, and sooner or later Ubuntu, etc.) that may "give away" the OS but then charge big bucks for enterprise support (which can be hundreds of dollars per year and certainly entails the setting up of a service activation code) and demand their removal from DW? What do you think is happening when you call Red Hat to get some problem solved with your RHEL? The first thing they'll do is to check whether you've registered and activated your service contract, and if you can't produce a valid ID code, your request is not legit and you get a polite "goodbye". With Xandros HE and HEP you get 60 days of free tech support.
nodekeeper also wrote:
"Other people are giving it mediocre reviews." You're pulling this out of your hat. Please support this with references. If you're referring to people on this forum, I haven't seen a mediocre review unless you call the reflexive outbursts of a dozen ignoramusses here about Xandros committing serious Linux crimes reviews.
It really is rather pathetic and saddening that after a fairly major event such as a new release of a major Linux distro which is very substantially improved over its previous version, after a one and a half year period of hard work done quietly, the DW readership, with few exceptions, cannot produce anything better than the embarrassingly ignorant sounding off that we've witnessed so far this week.
Robert
158 • RE: #157 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-06-29 23:56:09 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"If you've stolen your copy of Xandros..."
"I can imagine that Xandros has substantial losses from software thieves..."
I can't believe I am reading this rubbish. So if I want to give friends free copies of linux distributions, the feelings should be the same as with Winbloze? My friends and I should feel like pirates and thieves?
If that is what it means using Xandros, it can rot in Hell for what I am concerned.
Have you noticed that all top linux distros are freely distributable?
A very good example is SUSE. Somebody who creates torrents of every new commercial release asked Novell if it was illegal. The answer was "no"
159 • slackware 11.0 (by Omar Hashim on 2006-06-30 00:21:11 GMT from Athens, United States)
When is Slackware 11.0 going to surface?
Any info about it seems no one is mentioning anything and pre-orders have been going on for quite sometime.
160 • Xandros 4 (by Ian on 2006-06-30 00:40:46 GMT from Central District, Hong Kong)
Sure you can install on unlimited machines, we just won't let you update any of them until you've asked and received permission from us. Go ahead and use apt-get, our code is so highly-customized that you're bound to break something. How many activations? We were only allowing 5 yesterday, it's 10 today, could be 2 tomorrow - we haven't decided yet, and nowhere does it say this in our marketing or documentation.
Welcome to Xandros!
161 • Gentoo is not in trouble (by Curtis Napier on 2006-06-30 00:42:55 GMT from , United States)
Gentoo is growing at a lightning pace so of course we are going to have growing pains. But that doesn't mean we are in "trouble". Many of those developers that left have returned after thinking the situation through and many more new developers are joining on an almost daily basis.
162 • # 154 (by Anonymous on 2006-06-30 01:07:46 GMT from Belm, Brazil)
"For the most part, i could testify that DeLi Linux is a good OS for basic computing tasks. However, its apps are mostly outdated."
If you want bleeding edge apps then you need bleeding edge hw.
"Similarly, it considerably fails to recognize certain hardware parts at times. Most importantly, it can hardly support new peripherals and gadgets, such as various MP3 players(for example iPod), digitalCams, cellphones, USB devices and drives--such as my 2GB thumb drive made by OCZ :-)"
http://www.delilinux.de/
DeLi runs 2.2 kernel.
Perhaps there are patchs (backports) to suport new hw on this old kernel...
From DeLi page:
"Kernel 2.2.26 is a rock solid kernel of the 2.2 branch and it should recognize all hardware which is ***available for old computers***. 2.4.x is newer, but it's also larger."
You canot have both.
Or you have old hardware distro or you have new hardware distro!
163 • Re #158 (by rglk on 2006-06-30 03:11:42 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Hello Anonymous Penguin,
I find your brazen sense of entitlement somewhat disconcerting. You seem to feel entitled to have software dropped into your lap without paying anything for it whatsoever. I'm probably not mistaken in assuming that you'd be willing to sing the praises of all the selfless, idealistic Linux software developers who give so much to the open source software community without getting paid for it. What about you? What have you given to the FOSS community? Have you contributed a single line of code to the Linux kernel or to any piece of GNU software or maintained any packages or written or translated any documentation? Have you ever paid anything for any Linux distro or made any donation to any of them? If you haven't where do you get this sense of entitlement from? What is so special about you that you feel you can sit in judgment over and reject a software company that doesn't throw all of their excellent work at you for free?
What do you think of Patrick Volkerding charging $40 for Slackware, of the Libranet folks of late fame charging $80 for what was essentially 100% Debian with an added admin utility that didn't really do much more than what could be done for free with Webmin, of Mepis really expecting you to BUY their software (they call it a subscription, $50/year)? Do you wish for them to rot in hell as well?
Re pirates and thieves, you must have noticed that Xandros costs money and needs to be purchased. If you freely give your friends copies of Xandros that you or somebody else paid for, yes, that is software piracy or theft on their part; it's not sanctioned by the purchase agreement.
Have I noticed that all top Linux distros are freely distributable? They may be freely distributable but that doesn't mean they come without cost. I'm sure you're well aware of the business plan of the big players. Take Red Hat as an example. They use the open community (i.e. Fedora) with its developers and users as a testbed for innovation and further product development. Once the bugs are shaken out and the software has become stable, whatever proves to be solid and valuable then percolates up into their enterprise edition (RHEL) which is sold for good money with a support contract. That's where they make their money. The same holds for OpenSUSE and Novell and for OpenSolaris and Solaris and one of these days will hold for Ubuntu and some kind of Ubuntu enterprise edition.
The users of Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu are esentially unpaid beta testers. When the system crashes or acts up on you and you spend hours fixing a problem, you're beta testing without pay. Since you got the distro for free you have no cause for complaint; you may file a bug report or post the problem in their forum and thereby help in the development, at your own cost.
The recent debacle with Ubuntu 6.06 is a good example. A lot of people had major problems with it; quite a few in fact abandoned it. OK, so Ubuntu is freely distributable without your having to pay for it but is it without cost to you? Obviously not to the people who wasted a lot of their precious time with it recently.
As a commercial paid-for distro, Xandros can't afford such debacles (although they had a brush with it with Service Pack 2 last year); they'd risk going under. They have to set themselves higher standards; hence they take their time to develop a very polished product, witness the gap of 1.5 years between the last two releases.
I'm willing to pay the measly price of $40 or 80 for such a polished product. If I were to switch to Slackware as my workhorse distro, i.e. the one that I use 95% of the time, I would pay Patrick his $40. And if I were to pick a distro that has no asking price whatsoever, I'd make a donation to them.
Please come down from your high horse of entitlement and stop dumping on distros that ask you to pay for the work that's been put into them.
Robert
164 • RE: #157 Xandros reviews (by nodekeeper on 2006-06-30 03:32:19 GMT from Salt Lake City, United States)
Robert wrote;
"Other people are giving it mediocre reviews." You're pulling this out of your hat. Please support this with references. "
Do you read Distrowatch?? - I quote from the final paragraph from DW's review;
"After spending a weekend investigating the latest product from Xandros, I have mixed feelings about Xandros Desktop 4. On one hand, there are many excellent enhancements that would make a Windows convert feel right at home and a reasonably good selection of applications (despite the surprising omission of a money management package). On the other hand, it's certainly not an operating system for geeks who would likely be put off by product activation, virus warnings, and other unpleasant reminders of our computing past with that other operating system."
Some good + some bad == "mediocre". I pulled nothing out of my hat.
Gnuman's review is simialr, it has some positive things (simplicity and ease of installation) plus some negative things (leaving out some packages).
My generalization is far from unfair,
165 • RE: #163 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-06-30 04:09:27 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"You seem to feel entitled to have software dropped into your lap without paying anything for it whatsoever..."
"What about you? What have you given to the FOSS community? Have you contributed a single line of code to the Linux kernel or to any piece of GNU software or maintained any packages or written or translated any documentation? Have you ever paid anything for any Linux distro or made any donation to any of them?..."
You couldn't be further than the truth. I have contributed both financially and otherwise much above average. Here I am only an "anonymous penguin", but you don't know who I am in reality and what I do/I have done.
But that is hardly the point. None of us, except maybe you, wants OSS to compete with M$. Activation? Come on, let's be serious, not even the ultra proprietary Mac OS X requires an activation.
And please let's not insult the good name of great distros. Slackware? You can buy it or download for free, it is entirely up to you. People buy Slack because they love it, not because they have to. Libranet? Yes you had to pay for it, but it was *never* mentioned that you couldn't freely distribute as many copies as you wanted (I should know because I bought all their releases since I tried Libranet for the first time, and I was an active member of their forum).
And while we are at it, one of the two developers of Libranet 3.0 firmly believes that linux distros should be free in both meanings of the word. And surely he isn't somebody who hasn't contributed to FLOSS.
166 • Xandros (by tom on 2006-06-30 04:28:34 GMT from La Junta, United States)
Robert # 163; rjlk 157
I am happy the two of you have found a distro you like. I myself am now an Ubuntu refugee as the upgrade to 6.06 trashed my install.
I was a Beta tester for Ubuntu, and yes I feel I got little (no) support from the Ubuntu community when my system crashed. My post still sits on the Ubuntu site with no solution along with all the backlash (the Ubuntu approach has to deny any problem and kill the messenger). As such I no longer use Ubuntu.
Yet, with all this I prefer Ubuntu (or any other distro) where I can be a Beta tester, and by filing a bug report I can improve and contribute to Linux. I also learn the innards of a distro/linux, so who is using who?. Before I came to Linux I was a Windows user. I did not know how to partition a hard drive.
Xandros, to me, seems in many ways a return to Windows. First there are the costs and license issues. Second I did not find Xandros to be very up-to-date nor have a large repository. If you are going to install from the Debian repository, why are you running Xandros? Also some of the problems you have with installing from the Debian repositories may be incompatibility issues between Xandros and Debian (I do not know). If this is the case you can hardly blame Debian. I ran a mixed system Ubuntu/Debian for some time, but it needed to be configured and updated with caution. I certainly did not blame Debian for being in any way unstable if I had problems with the Debian repository on a mixed system. You should not make such claims on a Xandrox/Debian mixed system either.
Debian "stable", Slackware, SUSE, and Fedora have been as reliable as Xandros. I will agree that Debian testing and sid can be problematic if you blindly install/upgrade. Slackware, Debian, and Fedora will require you to have a more solid knowledge base then Xandros, but how do you trouble shoot a Xandros install if you spend all your time mindlessly installing and updating a system that "just works". And if you do tinker, what is then is the advantage of Xandros?
Xandros hardly has any kind of monopoly on well tested, stable repositories.
Mepis and PCLinux are both solid distros and both out perform Xandros. Neither cost $ or require a registration fee.
Xandros is not is the same league with Red hat (RHEL) or any other "commercial" Linux/Unix and should not be compared to these products. It is in the same league with Ubuntu, Mandriva, Mepis, and PCLinux. I have a general disdain for Mandriva and Xandros for similar reasons .
While as above I am no longer an Ubuntu user, I detected mindless paranoia regarding Ubuntu charging users. If they do I am sure they will lose their user base and be viewed similarly to Mandriva or Xandros.
Fedora and Open SUSE are both community projects . I would consider running Open Xandros but there is no such entity. Mandriva can be run for free, but, for me, has no advantage to Fedora or Open SUSE.
There are several great distros that are all free, community efforts. Debian or dyne:bolic for example. Zenwalk, Vector, BLAG, the list goes on.
All in all, I personally can find no reason to run Xandros. Not everyone is motivated by money and just because you pay for an OS does not make it stable or better. If I knew enough I would gladly contribute to Linux or any other code, not for money but for enjoyment and good will. As it stands now I Beta test and teach Linux, both of which are, in their own way, my contribution to the Linux community. Xandros simply has nothing to offer to me.
167 • Re: Minix - stop attacking the messenger by nodekeeper (by Warpengi on 2006-06-30 04:37:42 GMT from Calgary, Canada)
Andrew Tannenbum is not the messenger for Minix, he is the creator of Minix. He might be the messenger for micro-kernels ( but no one has been dissing micro-kernels here). Going by your definition I should post my web site here and say "hey everybody come and join my web site" When someone inevitably flames me for spamming I could just say "hey I'm only the messenger!"
True few if any of us are ATs peers here but this is the wibbly wide web not your ivory tower halls of academe. AT came, hat in hand, to ask for inclusion on Distrowatch. Ladislav is not one of ATs peers either unless he has been keeping his Doctorate, professorship and kernel development credentials secret. So AT doesn't get to have freedom from public crticism here. It doesn't matter how many books he has published or how many I have not published for me to give my opinion. Just as you are able to give your own flawed opinions.
168 • Re #160 (by rglk on 2006-06-30 04:57:11 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Ian wrote:
"Sure you can install on unlimited machines, we just won't let you update any of them until you've asked and received permission from us."
Are you constitutionally unable or dyslexic or just plain too dumb to fill in a registration form and enter an activation code? Are you having a problem with parental authority and fear being denied permission? What exactly is your problem? If you've paid for your software, are you perfectly happy with the fact that in the absence of some form of control there are likely to be ten times as many pirates and freeloaders around who deprive your software maker of revenue, thus affecting the viability and vitality of the software that you've come to rely on? Or perhaps you're a prospective member of that other camp, and that's why you're whining.
"How many activations? We were only allowing 5 yesterday, it's 10 today, could be 2 tomorrow - we haven't decided yet, and nowhere does it say this in our marketing or documentation."
If you'd only searched the Xandros Users Forum for 5 min (search term "activation") you would have spared yourself the embarassment of having to be rejected as a credible source.
Xandros first introduced an activation policy for their prize-winning new server (LinuxWorld 2006), a product that costs $450. No wonder they want to keep some tabs on it. Shortly thereafter, i.e. last week, they launched the new Desktop Home Editions, and apparently there was an initial screw up, in that the more restrictive checking mechanisms that applied to the server purchases were applied to the Home Edition purchases as well. This has been rectified and Xandros employees are on record now in a public forum, with signed names and titles, stating what the deal is in a legally binding way.
The deal is that your initial activation code is good for 10 installs. If you run out of these, you can request another activation code which will be granted for another ten installs, and so on, ad infinitum. You would have to be a real moron to need to reinstall your system more than 10 times so that you have to worry about running out of your initial activation code and about the massive inconvenience of having to dash off an email to get another one.
And to remind you, this activation restriction only applies to updates and additional applications packages downloaded via Xandros networks from the Xandros server. For all you prospective pirates and freeloaders, you can run Xandros 4 forever without ever registering and applying an activation code; you just wouldn't be able to access the Xandros servers for updates and upgrades. But you can install 10,000 Debian packages from public Debian servers if you wish, and as I've said, I've installed 200+ packages from such a standard Debian repository on top of the Xandros base system without ever crashing my system.
You really would have to be a compulsive faultfinder if you bicker about this rather benign form of activation that Xandros introduced to protect themselves. I can live with it, and I support it.
Robert
169 • rglk (by AC on 2006-06-30 05:30:47 GMT from , United States)
First, I donate semi-annually to FSF and SPI
https://www.fsf.org/associate/support_freedom
http://www.spi-inc.org/donations
and periodically make smaller contributions to particular projects.
I also file detailed bug reports, offer support to others in forums, and do various forms of advocacy.
Words like "piracy" and "theft" show just how far up your ass your head is stuck. There is no legal or moral basis for comparing what is technically "copyright violation" to rape, pillage, and murder on the high seas. Personally, I don't violate copyrights but I still consider "sharing" a more apt description than "piracy". (I would share but I'd rather encourage people to use software that respects their freedom and avoid hassles with legislation bought and paid for by the BSA, MPAA, and RIAA.)
If you don't find this product activation garbage to be outrageous, so be it. But many of us who do are not freeloaders, so spare us baseless accusations. I find more outrageous that Xandros are freeloaders, trying to make a buck off of Free Software while giving nothing back (unlike Red Hat and SuSE). The GPL allows them to do that, but that doesn't mean we should support them and we certainly shouldn't stand for some idiot trying to browbeat us as "freeloaders" when we object.
170 • Re #164 (by rglk on 2006-06-30 05:47:09 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
nodekeeper, do you read Distrowatch?? - I quote from the first paragraph from DW's review;
"I have to admit that I have a soft spot for Xandros Desktop, a commercial desktop Linux distribution designed for novice users - for deployment in home and office environments. Although I tend to be critical of companies that build their commercial products from Free Software without ever releasing any of their own work under the GPL and without sponsoring any open source projects, there is something about this distribution that makes it a great introductory Linux system for those who are looking for an alternative to Windows. Xandros Desktop is a beautiful, stable and well-designed operating system with near-perfect hardware detection and many unique enhancements you won't find in any other distribution. And at US$40 for the Basic edition and US$70 for the Premium edition, it is certainly good value for money."
Sounds to me like all good + no bad =//= "mediocre"
You quoted from the final paragraph from DW's review;
"After spending a weekend investigating the latest product from Xandros, I have mixed feelings about Xandros Desktop 4. On one hand, there are many excellent enhancements that would make a Windows convert feel right at home and a reasonably good selection of applications (despite the surprising omission of a money management package). On the other hand, it's certainly not an operating system for geeks who would likely be put off by product activation, virus warnings, and other unpleasant reminders of our computing past with that other operating system."
Some good + some bad == "mediocre". I pulled nothing out of my hat."
You're putting much weight on that last sentence? Come on! I'm considering myself to be a bit of a geek, and I'm not put off by these things that Ladislav thinks one should be put off. Besides you can be a geek with ANY Linux distro, you just have to open a bash shell, and that's the same with all distros. I think Ladislav was running out of intelligent things to say; "unpleasant reminders of Windows" is really a fatuous argument against a Linux distro. For heavens sake, Xandros in its default look looks a little like Windows because it uses KDE which looks like Windows - and so do 300 other Linux distros. I could put a KDE skin on Xandros that makes it look like Mac OS X. And doesn't Ladislav know how to install GnuCash or whatever? Lets have some substantive criticisms here, please!
"Gnuman's review is simialr, it has some positive things (simplicity and ease of installation) plus some negative things (leaving out some packages)."
Leaving out some packages? What is Xandros Networks and apt-get for? To enable you to install 16,000 Debian packages. You can add anything under the sun to the base install. Do you meekly accept the default choices of your Linux distro? I don't.
Robert
171 • Alternative OS roundup (by Raymond on 2006-06-30 05:58:59 GMT from Chullora, Australia)
Here's a roundup of some alternative OSs:
http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/06/06/1929232
And a contest for alternative OSs:
http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14911
Note at the bottom of the contest page that FreeDOS is now dead.
It looks like Linux and BSD are the most usable OSs.
172 • Re #169 (by rglk on 2006-06-30 06:33:09 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
I don't know where you have been in the past 20 years, apparently not on the Internet or reading about the software industry.
For your edification, here is the definition from Answers.com of a term that you never seem to have heard:
software piracy
The illegal copying of software for distribution within the organization or to friends, clubs and other groups or for commercial duplication and resale. The software industry loses billions of dollars each year to piracy, and although it may seem innocent enough to install an application on a couple of additional machines, it may ultimately shatter the profitability of a small software company. Software piracy is a major issue in the U.S. and Europe, but it is rampant in the rest of the world where major applications are routinely copied for resale.
"If you don't find this product activation garbage to be outrageous, so be it. But many of us who do are not freeloaders, so spare us baseless accusations. I find more outrageous that Xandros are freeloaders, trying to make a buck off of Free Software while giving nothing back (unlike Red Hat and SuSE). The GPL allows them to do that, but that doesn't mean we should support them and we certainly shouldn't stand for some idiot trying to browbeat us as "freeloaders" when we object."
I'd like you to support your claim that Xandros are freeloaders that have given nothing back. I'd also like to remind you that Xandros is the direct successor of Corel Linux which has done a lot in putting Linux on the map in the late 1990's.
You also seem to have missed who I call freeloaders: individuals who download the free Xandros Open Circulation Edition the explicit purpose of which is to give people a taste of what Xandros is like and who then circumvent the built-in limitations by clever tricks to get a fully functional copy of Xandros without having to purchase the commercial product, thus depriving the company of revenue. Individuals who pass around or resell copies of the Xandros commercial editions (not the OCE) are software pirates, and software piracy is a crime like theft, it's not a copyright violation. I do not call individuals freeloaders who pass around copies of free software such as Ubuntu. So there is no need for you to run up against windmills. Please read my posts before you respond.
Robert
173 • Robert (by Ian on 2006-06-30 06:50:45 GMT from Hong Kong, Hong Kong)
"Xandros User Forum" is not legally binding, it's like saying anything posted in this discussion on DW is legally binding. It's not. Xandros needs to document their activation policies on their main www.xandros.com website and make these plain to people before purchase, not after. I had no idea about this activation scheme until I had already handed over my cash and was faced with it during the First Boot wizard. It is also not listed in the End User License Agreement. I would not have purchased if I'd known about it, and am in the process of applying for a refund from Xandros.
I have no problem understanding what the "deal" is with activation and how it works, despite my dyslexia (apologies to all dyslexics out there are in order, Robert.) I am saying that I and many others disagree with the principle behind activation, having to repeatedly ask permission to receive the full functionality we've paid for, however "benign" and "easy" and "straightforward" the process might be, and having to rely on the company to grant that permission each time with no "legally binding" guarantee that they will.
You have no problems with this activation scheme, I respect that, that's your choice.
Robert, it would be good if you could present your views without making insulting remarks to those who don't happen to share them. How about it? :)
174 • Re #165 (by rglk on 2006-06-30 06:56:24 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Anonymous Penguin wrote:
"Libranet? Yes you had to pay for it, but it was *never* mentioned that you couldn't freely distribute as many copies as you wanted (I should know because I bought all their releases since I tried Libranet for the first time, and I was an active member of their forum)."
You believe it was all right with the Libranet developers that you would "freely distribute" as many copies as you wanted, one guy putting out the 80 bucks for a legit copy and then passing it around to 100 others? You've got to be kidding. If that is true why did they charge for the OS to begin with? Rather than relying on what was "mentioned" or "not mentioned" in the forum, you'd better look at the EULA to find out what was legal and what was illegal. I'd be keen to know, please post your findings.
"And while we are at it, one of the two developers of Libranet 3.0 firmly believes that linux distros should be free in both meanings of the word. And surely he isn't somebody who hasn't contributed to FLOSS."
1. Yes, ... should be free in both meanings of the word .... and he charged $80 for it.
2. And they did go under.
Robert
175 • Robert (by Ian on 2006-06-30 07:45:02 GMT from Hong Kong, Hong Kong)
"Rather than relying on what was "mentioned" or "not mentioned" in the forum, you'd better look at the EULA to find out what was legal and what was illegal."
But I thought you'd just told us above that relying on stuff mentioned in a forum (i.e. Xandros Forums) was legitimate and totally "legal"? Are you contradicting yourself now?
Also, as far as I understand, Libranet went under not so much because of a failed business model but because one of the two main developers died.
176 • Re #173 (by rglk on 2006-06-30 08:23:38 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Ian wrote:
"Xandros User Forum" is not legally binding, it's like saying anything posted in this discussion on DW is legally binding. It's not. Xandros needs to document their activation policies on their main www.xandros.com website and make these plain to people before purchase, not after.
I'm not sure. The DW Comments section is just a grabbag of people sounding off, no lawyer could hold you in court to what you're saying here. The Xandros User Forum is part of the main www.xandros.com website; its address is http://forums.xandros.com. I'm not a lawyer but I believe that what Xandros employees say in the official forum can be brought up in court as legally binding unless they specifically tag it as personal opinion or off the record.
I'm sorry to hear that you feel duped, and you've got good reason to demand a refund. Xandros often is a little less than professional. Too bad you won't have a chance to run Xandros 4, it really is quite a good product. I'd been ready to move away from it for quite some time and move on to Slackware but this new version has so many new good touches to it, I'll probably stick around for a while longer.
I would be gratified if you were to rethink your attitude toward activation. There is activation and there is activation. Most people in this debate seem to have projected onto Xandros the MS model of activation which I also vigorously reject. But one has to differentiate here: this Xandros activation is quite different from the predatory MS kind of activation, it really is a half-assed Micky Mouse kind of activation. One wonders whether they wouldn't be better off scrapping it or perhaps tightening it. To me it's comparable to a bank teller asking me for identification when I want to withdraw $200 from my bank account. Who's got a problem with that?
Since I'll have a legit copy of XS HEP and since I doubt that I'll install it more than 10 times, this whole issue is utterly irrelevant to me. I will be using this new copy of Xandros in exactly the same way as I have my previous copies; there's just no difference and no new restrictions. I trust this company, period.
If I have insulted you, I apologize for it as well as to others who I may have similarly insulted. I simply got very ticked off by a lot of uninformed rubbish that has been posted here about Xandros in the past few days, and your negative and snide remarks seemed to belong to the same category.
I don't like at all to feel pushed into the position of an apologist for Xandros. Within the Xandros community, I'm one of the more dissident and critical voices, and I often thought of moving away from Xandros. But then, all of the main distros are more or less alike, I might as well stay with Xandros for everyday troublefree computing. It looks good, is very polished, runs reasonably fast, is very stable, give you very little trouble or grief, and if you want to get under the hood, you open a shell.
Also, it works very well in some areas that really count, e.g. hardware recognition, Linux-to-Windows networking, wireless networking configuration (perhaps the best in the field!), multimedia performance, CD & DVD burning. Altogether an excellent distro but no challenge at all to a Linux sys admin. If I want to enjoy that challenge, I boot into Slackware which is great fun for learning about Linux and an excellent distro on top of that.
Cheers,
Robert
177 • A brand NEW Linux-based desktop for $150??? (by Gabriel on 2006-06-30 11:22:42 GMT from Toronto, Canada)
---- Hey pals :-)
You wanna a totally brand NEW "Linux-based desktop for about $150." ??
If so, then just go and read this on the following link: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,71222-0.html?tw=wn_index_16
178 • pirates and thieves (by Anonymous on 2006-06-30 12:14:37 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
#163 "Re ***pirates and thieves***, you must have noticed that Xandros costs money and needs to be purchased. If you freely give your friends copies of Xandros that you or somebody else paid for, yes, that is software ***piracy or theft*** on their part; it's not sanctioned by the ***purchase agreement***."
There are no "pirates and thieves" of free software.
GPLed software MUST give me 4 freedoms.
GPLed software MUST give me the freedom to share.
See htt://www.fsf.org
Everybody can share GPLed freesoftware.
"Purchase agreement" canot invalidate GPL rules.
Distro makers canot rely on selling freesoftware for revenue.
They must rely on something else, like services, customization,
etc, etc...
RH do not sell software.
RH sell services.
The GPLed sw is free as in speech AND is free as in beer.
179 • Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, (by Anonymous on 2006-06-30 12:19:43 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software:
The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
A program is free software if users have all of these freedoms. Thus, you should be free to redistribute copies, either with or without modifications, either gratis or charging a fee for distribution, to anyone anywhere. Being free to do these things means (among other things) that you do not have to ask or pay for permission.
You should also have the freedom to make modifications and use them privately in your own work or play, without even mentioning that they exist. If you do publish your changes, you should not be required to notify anyone in particular, or in any particular way.
The freedom to use a program means the freedom for any kind of person or organization to use it on any kind of computer system, for any kind of overall job, and without being required to communicate subsequently with the developer or any other specific entity.
The freedom to redistribute copies must include binary or executable forms of the program, as well as source code, for both modified and unmodified versions. (Distributing programs in runnable form is necessary for conveniently installable free operating systems.) It is ok if there is no way to produce a binary or executable form for a certain program (since some languages don't support that feature), but you must have the freedom to redistribute such forms should you find or develop a way to make them.
In order for the freedoms to make changes, and to publish improved versions, to be meaningful, you must have access to the source code of the program. Therefore, accessibility of source code is a necessary condition for free software.
In order for these freedoms to be real, they must be irrevocable as long as you do nothing wrong; if the developer of the software has the power to revoke the license, without your doing anything to give cause, the software is not free.
http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html/view?searchterm=freedom
180 • RE: #174 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-06-30 14:26:40 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"You believe it was all right with the Libranet developers that you would "freely distribute" as many copies as you wanted, one guy putting out the 80 bucks for a legit copy and then passing it around to 100 others? You've got to be kidding. If that is true why did they charge for the OS to begin with? Rather than relying on what was "mentioned" or "not mentioned" in the forum, you'd better look at the EULA to find out what was legal and what was illegal. I'd be keen to know, please post your findings."
That shows that you don't know what you are talking about.
There wasn't any EULA, it only sounds ridiculous to anybody who ever used Libranet. And it was *a fact* that you could give Libranet copies to friends and relatives, it wasn't an assumption.
Why did they charge? Same story as Slackware, people were happy to pay for something they loved, also knowing that there wasn't any breach of the GPL whatsoever.
"1. Yes, ... should be free in both meanings of the word .... and he charged $80 for it.
2. And they did go under."
1) No he didn't. He was only an "employee"
2) Because Tal's father, Jon, died after a long illness. Tal is quite young and he didn't feel like going on alone. Financially they had made good profits.
181 • Xandros 4.x Conserns (by Matty! on 2006-06-30 15:16:45 GMT from Ottawa, Canada)
Seems like there is some confusion here in regard to our "Activation', and Source Distribution.
Activation Details
1-> This does not dis-allow use of the OS, only the use of the Xandros Networks client. Users may still apt-get install to their hearts content, & the OS does not time out. (you may continue to use the OS for ever if you choose, but will not get the full "Xandros" experience)
2-> We still allow you to install to an unlimited number of Home/Devleopment/Testing machines and one "Business" Computer per Xandros Desktop license.
Version 4.x Source Code.
1-> This was simply an oversight, we get so few requests for source that we'd simply overlooked putting it up on the FTP site. This is being done as I type and should be rectified soon.
182 • Xandros 4 (by Ian on 2006-06-30 15:39:38 GMT from Central District, Hong Kong)
If you don't activate, you "will not get the full 'Xandros' experience". Pretty clear, thanks Matty.
Activation is mandatory if you want the full functionality of the product you've paid for, optional if you don't mind some parts of what you paid for being disabled and unavailable to you. All of this hinges on whether Xandros gives you "permission" or not to unlock everything (sugar coat the actual process all you like, this is essentially what an activation code entails - "permission" to use what you've paid for, and permission can be either granted or denied.) This is the "Xandros experience".
Other distros provide full functionality out of the box from the get-go, including access to all security and product updates, on all machines, for all and unlimited installations, all the time - no need to activate or ask for permission or rely on support people to unlock or allow you anything. Nothing disabled at all, ever.
It's all about informaton and choosing the "experience" you want. I'm glad we're all better informed now - thanks again, Matty.
183 • Free? Pay? (by Chris Bryant on 2006-06-30 16:05:31 GMT from Lake Mary, United States)
You know- it's kind of funny the amount of "it should be free" shouting that goes on- I mean, geeze. What would the state of Linux be without Red Hat, Suse, Mandrake (RIP), Xandros, Linspire, Codeweavers, and on and on.
It does take commercial involvement to develop and polish this stuff, and people have to eat and pay bills.
I work every day and I expect to get payed for it, and I expect to pay for tools that I use- *if* they are worth paying for (I obviously think Xandros is worth paying for Wink).
A second point- a lot of forums like that are full of Linux people bashing other distro's. What's up with that? Is that really the way to lure more Windows users to Linux?
99% of the time if someone comes to the Xandros users forum with problems, or something they cannot get worked out with Xandros- the members there will suggest another distro that has more of the features they are looking for- be it PCLos, Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Puppy, SLED or whatever.
184 • An interview please?! (by Anonymous on 2006-06-30 16:27:23 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
Perhaps could be a good idea inteviewing someone at fsf to clarify the GPL/freesoftware/freesource/opensource issue...
And maybe someone to speak about BSD licenses.
185 • RE: #183 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-06-30 16:32:21 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"You know- it's kind of funny the amount of "it should be free" shouting that goes on- I mean, geeze. What would the state of Linux be without Red Hat, Suse, Mandrake (RIP), Xandros, Linspire, Codeweavers, and on and on."
Nobody here says that all distros should be free as in free beer.
But you shouldn't have absurd conditions like activation, which take away freedoms more important than not paying.
As to the "distros" you mention, Codewavers is not one. SUSE and Mandrake/driva have free downloads and allow redistribution of their commercial offerings. Red Hat has Fedora and you can always download RHEL source code and create a new distro (CentOS...)
And why not mention Debian, which has contributed more than any other distro and has never cost anything? Or Gentoo?
186 • Re:#185 (by Chris Bryant on 2006-06-30 16:45:16 GMT from Lake Mary, United States)
"Nobody here says that all distros should be free as in free beer.
But you shouldn't have absurd conditions like activation, which take away freedoms more important than not paying."
But you do not have to activate the entire distro- the *only* thing that requires the activation is Xandros Netwroks- and the *only* thing you cannot get without this is some Xandros Specific updates.
All of the packages are available via apt-get- as is Synaptic- which works quite well with the Xandros repository.
I'm well aware that Codeweavers is not a distro- but they do have a GPL/Commercial business model- like Xandros they use GPL'd code- add some value to it- give some of that value back to the community and charge for the rest.
I *like* Debian, and before I moved to Xandros (I moved not from Windows, but from Red Hat - 6.2 ->7.2 -> 8.0 -> 9.0 -> Xandros) I tried Gentoo, and while I love it- I'm not a computer guy, and the learning curve was just too steep (I did get a stage 1 install performed, and learned a lot- I'll probably look at it again on a test box)- but I just need my computer to work- every day- and that's what it does now.
Xandros has an open circulation edition for version 3, and I expect them to have one for version 4- though no, they do wait a while to release it.
187 • Re: 186 (by Ian on 2006-06-30 17:11:56 GMT from Central District, Hong Kong)
"the *only* thing you cannot get without this is some Xandros Specific updates."
This is an important point. The Xandros distribution contains highly-customized and unique code (e.g. their Xandros File Manager) which can only really be safely updated via Xandros Networks using "Xandros Specific" updates. If you use apt-get / synaptic and standard debian sources to update things instead, you are more than likely to break something essential in Xandros e.g. the Xandros File Manager. And critical updates (e.g. any future Service Packs) will not be available via apt-get / synaptic.
Therefore, access to Xandros Networks is vital to the security and stability of any Xandros installation, and you get no access to this essential functionality until you activate your installation (= ask Xandros for permission to use what you've paid for.) Whether you have to activate the entire distro or just one part of it is irrelevant if that "one part" is actually crucial to the smooth running of the entire distro.
If you are going to update your installation primarily from standard debian sources using apt-get / synaptic, you would be better off from the start using distributions which do not contain highly customized or proprietary code e.g. Debian itself, Ubuntu, Mepis, PCLinuxOS, etc.
188 • Activation removes freedoms? (by Steven on 2006-06-30 18:02:05 GMT from , United States)
I personally don't see how activation removes freedoms. It asks you to show that you are the one who purchased the software before it lets you use their proprietary downloading service which is set up specifically for the purchaser. How exactly does this remove a freedom? Is it any different than Red Hat asking you to proove you are the owner of a service contract to seek support? It's not like you can get no updates, or no new software, without activation, you just cannot use the service that was specific for a purchaser. If you are a purchaser, this should be a non-issue. If you were givin a copy of the software, you are able to use all functionality except for the download service set up for the purchaser. Being that this was a perk anyway, if you really want it you could easily pay for it, and if you don't want to pay for it you can still rest knowing that you can update and download through other means, though not guarenteed by the developer.
Is an ATM requiring a pin removing a freedom? Because you have to be who you say you are to use it in the machine. If you pass around your card to other people they can use it for every purpose you could use it for (in this case, looking at it), except for removing money from your account... this, to me, is not a bad thing.
189 • Re #187 (by rglk on 2006-06-30 18:38:46 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
You're quite right: without activation no Xandros Networks and without XN no Xandros-specific updates - you wind up with a slightly crippled Xandros system.
The crux here is your view on activation. Most people here seem to take a dogmatic, ideological view: activation is a red flag, a perceived onslaught on some ill-defined concept of personal choice and freedom, as illusory as that may be. My own view is pragmatic: what's involved in this, does this limit my choices, is this going to make my life more difficult, is there any benefit in this.
What's involved? At the end of a 35 min install process of some two dozen steps, a single extra step is added that takes two minutes. Big deal.
Does this limit my choices? Not in the least. Once this thing is out of the way, I can forget about it for the next year. Xandros 4 will work exactly like XS 3. In no way will I be put into a straightjacket.
Is this going to make my life more difficult? No, see previous paragraph.
Is there any benefit in this? Yes, it will probably curb Xandros' losses due to software piracy and the money recovered can go into development which benefits me in the shape of a better product.
Seen from this perspective, this Xandros activation debate becomes laughable - much ado about nothing.
If you don't trust this company and expect that they will not honor their stated policies, Xandros obviously is the wrong choice of OS for you.
Robert
190 • Xandros and Related (by Videoguy on 2006-06-30 19:41:04 GMT from Houston, United States)
Xandros And Free Software
It has been my experience to witness various interpretations of both what *free* and *freedom* mean exactly in the FOSS community, as well as what is considered to be the *norm* and what *best practices* constitute. I understand that people disagree, sometimes heatedly, about the finer points of this issue in regards to the various licenses used in open source projects. One need look no further than, for example, the notification to Mepis and DSL by FSF in regards to source availability of "upstream" unmodified code.
In reading the comments up to this point, I would generally align myself with the comments that Robert has offered. I do not believe that Xandros has violated the GPL nor do I believe that there is sufficient reason to remove Xandros from Distrowatch. A quick site check reveals that they do offer the source code for GPL programs used in their work. As far as activation is concerned, I can surely understand why this would cause such strong reactions from so many enthusiasts.
From what I've been able to garner, *activation* is mainly to grant some access to a restricted server much in the same fashion that the Mandrake Club operated, as well as to protect the investment that Xandros has made in some proprietary code included in their distribution. I do not remember anyone seriously asking for Mandrake to be dumped from Distrowatch for this practice. On a related note, I noticed quite a bit of fervor on this site regarding Linspire recently, leaving me to conclude that, at least for a small but vocal group, the idea of bundling free and non-free code together for a commercial purpose cannot or should not be tolerated. God forbid someone should make a buck.
From the Xandros FAQ:
Xandros develops proprietary applications and incorporates free and open-source applications into its releases. Xandros also tests, fixes bugs, and modifies applications so that they work in our products. Xandros makes the code of free and open-source applications available from this Web site. We like to be compensated for our hard work; like you, we appreciate food, clothing, a roof, and our computers. We exist because customers pay for our products.
Xandros provides the Open Circulation edition at no charge so that you can try our product before you buy.
I do not find this practice substantially different than RHEL. Should we remove it also? I do not believe that the merits of the situation rise to that level. I make no allegations regarding any individual as to whether or not they are commiting *piracy*, or as to whether or not same are *supporting* open source. I CAN say with certainty however, that the framwork of "free milk and a cow" is alive and well in the linux community.
Regards,
Videoguy
191 • Re: 187 - Xandros File Manager (by Ariszló on 2006-06-30 21:00:05 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
Ian wrote: If you use apt-get / synaptic and standard debian sources to update things instead, you are more than likely to break something essential in Xandros e.g. the Xandros File Manager.
Interesting example. When I tried Xandros Desktop 2.01 OCE a couple of years ago, I could happily get along without the Xandros File Manager. I found it a dumbed-downd file manager compared to the real thing, Konqueror, which was there even if it was hidden from the menu.
192 • Free Software, Xandros, Activation, etc. (by welkiner on 2006-06-30 21:09:33 GMT from Los Angeles, United States)
Re. # 188: ATM is not a very good example for your side of this debate. The primary purpose of a PIN is to protect me(the consumer). The primary purpose of Activation is to protect the Company(unless you believe Microsoft FUD).
Don't get me wrong, as a self-employed programmer since the late 1970s, I know the value of IP, and at times I have gone to great extremes to protect my "intellectual property". I have never, to the best of my knowledge, sold an illegal copy of anything and I have spent a good deal of time tracking down and trying to bring some degree of justice to those who do. But this of course pertains to proprietary software, and I believe the debate here is about Free software.
I'm not a lawyer, but as a consumer of Free software, I am willing to pay for "services rendered" or "value added". In the case of Xandros, I purchassed each of the first three versions as they came out in the hopes that this version would be the killer desktop that the hype had promised. (what can I say...I'm a slow learner) After each purchass, within a week I went back to Debian, Gentoo, and/or Mepis. Needless to say I did not find the value added or services rendered commensurate with the cost of the product. I don't think that I will be trying # 4, but then "never say never".
Activation:
How can some people get all bent out of shape because someday somehow Ubuntu may cost money (when there is absolutely no indication or reason to think that this would ever happen), but not be bothered in the least when their favorite distro starts using Activation. Does the term "slippery slope" mean anything to you. I know the term is overused, but I think that it might be appropriate here.
In this particular case I agree whole heartedly with Anonymous from Brazil. I call them the 5 Rs of Free Software (4 are explicit and 1 is implicit):
Run
Read
Replicate
Revise
Redistribute
If any one of the five Rs is abrogated in anyway, the software is not Free!
I use proprietary (non-free) and Free software and I am willing to PAY for both, but I will not pay for free software that is not REALLY free.
Qualification: A vegetarian friend once told me "I will not eat meat...unless I'm really hungry".
193 • RE: #192 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-06-30 22:35:08 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"I use proprietary (non-free) and Free software and I am willing to PAY for both, but I will not pay for free software that is not REALLY free."
Exactly my feelings. I have paid for both, but I have spent much more money for free software, but people who are trying to cheat (basically) won't see my hard earned money.
194 • FOSS licensing (by Anonymous on 2006-06-30 23:45:41 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://archive.daniel-baumann.ch/linux/documents/foss-primers/licensing/foss-licensing-primer.pdf
195 • MINIX (by Sergei Steshenko on 2006-07-01 04:08:00 GMT from Yavne, Israel)
Yes, I think MINIX should be monitored on/reported by this site in the same manner
as Linux and *BSD are.
196 • to anonymous penguin (by AC on 2006-07-01 05:28:06 GMT from , United States)
With all due respect, as someone who often agrees with you and as a Debianista who would like to agree with you, I want to take issue with:
".. Debian, which has contributed more than any other distro and has never cost anything..."
It's very hard to judge such things without specifying some metric, but on the face of it, I'm not sure its true. I have deeply mixed feelings about Red Hat, but there can be no question that they have made huge contributions to and kept employed people involved with kernel development and GNOME, among other things.
Debian has made huge contributions of its own, and it is, in my estimation, a superior distro, but I hesitate to say that it has contributed more than any other.
197 • RE: 158 - asked Novell if it was illegal (by johncoom on 2006-07-01 14:35:22 GMT from Camberley, United Kingdom)
RE: 158 - Anonymous Penguin from Roma, Italy
QUOTE
A very good example is SUSE. Somebody who creates torrents of every new commercial release asked Novell if it was illegal. The answer was "no"
END QUOTE
Err Anonymous Penguin - I think that you have been CONNED (had the wool pulled over your eyes
WHY ?
Recently SUSE 10.1 boxed RETAIL was posted on the LinuxTracker (as dual layer DVD - can't remember the size, it was probably around 7 Gb)
Now I know this is not a Freely distributable !!! As one of the moderators I first deleted this torrent and then I challenged the poster about it - at first they used the argument that they had contacted Novel via email and they said it was not illegal to distribute it.. He then offered to send me the email etc.
BUT
When I challenge the poster further and pointed out EMAILS CAN BE FAKED the promptly stopped all of his arguments and then vanished
NOTE: over 24 hrs this was illegal Boxed Retail DVD ISO was posted several times - by different people (who joined LinuxTracker just to do it) First it was a LOCAL torrent - EG: using the LinuxTracker tracker - then it was posted as an EXTERNAL torrent - EG: using another tracker. Of course I believe it was the same person may be even Anonymous Penguin ? (I could be wrong) and during my challenges they kept saying "I just want to help" until I pointed out that (1) if its not on any SUSE FTP mirrors ? then it is not Freely redistributable - they soon gave up trying to CON me (stopped trying to pull the wool over my eyes)
Also I had pointed out that the LinuxTracker is not a Pirate Site and if we allowed people to post such stuff - then in the long run the LinuxTracker would probably get closed down ?
The easyest way to see if people are offering a Pirated distro is to look on their FTP mirror sites - If the ISO is not there ? then it is illegal to distribute it
198 • RE: #196 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-07-01 15:01:52 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"It's very hard to judge such things without specifying some metric, but on the face of it, I'm not sure its true. I have deeply mixed feelings about Red Hat, but there can be no question that they have made huge contributions to and kept employed people involved with kernel development and GNOME, among other things."
OK, you have a point here :-)
It is difficult to have the final word about such an issue.
199 • RE: #197 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-07-01 15:19:43 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"Of course I believe it was the same person may be even Anonymous Penguin ?"
Obviously not, because I am an Italian, while the person I am talking about is an American.
He doesn't need a tracker because he has got his own.
I know for sure he is an honourable man.
From his site:
* Is this legal?:
I've spoken to SUSE directly and was told that it is. I also have a brief written statement from SUSE which states verbatim "there's nothing in the EULA that forbids a torrent."
Knowing him pretty well, I don't have any reason to believe he is a liar. And if he were, Novell had taken some action by now, after several years.
"The easyest way to see if people are offering a Pirated distro is to look on their FTP mirror sites - If the ISO is not there ? then it is illegal to distribute it"
I don't believe that is a good criterion, simply because there isn't such a thing as a "pirated distro" Once again, read the GPL.
200 • Re #197 (by rglk on 2006-07-01 16:23:48 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
"I have deeply mixed feelings about Red Hat, but there can be no question that they have made huge contributions to and kept employed people involved with kernel development and GNOME, among other things."
The same applies to Xandros. Xandros is the direct descendant of Corel Linux which in the late 1990's made a major effort to put the Linux desktop on the map as an popular alternative to Windows which at that time had a close to 100% dominance in the desktop market. Microsoft then heavily invested in or bought up a division of Corel and told Corel to shut down their Linux operation. The kicked out Linux development section was recapitalized independently and reconstituted itself as Xandros. As I understand it, Xandros still emplys a number of the former Corel developers.
Corel in their time did a lot to carry the torch of Linux and make it burn brighter, and so does Xandros today. It's one of the most attractive entry points to Linux for people who got tired of Microsoft and Windows. They may then stay with Xandros or migrate to one of the other distros, including the free ones.
With regard to giving back to the FOSS community, Xandros for example developed the mp3 and iPod capabilities of amaroK and gave them back to the community. They also did a huge amount of work on the dcc kernel, and are very active in the DCC and LSB initiatives.
With regard to releasing the source code of their distro, its available on one of Xandros' ftp servers, with Xandros paying for the download bandwidth. According to the GPL, it doesn't even have to be on their public server for download; they just have to make it available should someone ask for it. E.g. the now-defunct Libranet who were quite fastidious about GPL never had source code on their public servers. If you wanted it, you could ask them for it and they would send you the CDs (you pay for the reproduction and postal costs).
With regard to the many extras and utilities that Xandros has added to the Debian distro (Xandros Networks, Xandros Control Center, Xandros File Manager with CD/DVD burning, Security Suite, network config wizard, hard disk manager, etc. etc.), the GPL does not require the release of source code that makes calls to unaltered GPL programs. It does require the release of GPL source code that has been modified prior to compiling. I'd be curious to know whether Libranet ever released the source code of the one main thing they added to Debian, i.e. their Admin utility.
Robert
201 • Re #11, #18, #35, #171 (by Lethargo on 2006-07-01 17:30:57 GMT from Saint Paul, United States)
People who are curious about other operating systems (e.g. ReactOS) might want to look at http://www.osnews.com (mentioned by Raymond in post #171.) It is NOT devoted to Open Source, so it is not the same as the "OSWatch" that Buster Ellis suggested in port #35. However, OSNews does have a lot of news items on open source operating systems as well as proprietary ones.
202 • RE#197 by Johncoom (by Warpengi on 2006-07-01 17:49:13 GMT from Calgary, Canada)
You say "Now I know this is not a Freely distributable"
Why don't you back this up? Was this knowledge you were born with, some innate 6th sense or a message from god? Maybe you are the one who is conning himself. There is no such thing as pirating GPL software as has been well documented in previous posts. That is why the Xandros activation thing is bad. It helps create the concept of software piracy in free software. No matter how different it may be from Windows activation everyone thinks they are the same.
It seems to me some of the posts here regarding distribution are from people new to free software and unable to grasp the concept. Much like those who want to run an antivirus on their linux desktop. When I try to explain that there are no Linux viruses they say but no system is hack proof. So I explain there is a difference between cracking a system and virus infections and their eyes glaze over and they just can't grasp it. To them if there is a vulnerability you have to have AV protection. Gnu/Linux is not just another operating system it is a totally new paradigm. The idea that free software can be used to make money and that the development model is not even remotely comparable to the proprietary model just doesn't get through to some people.
Yes there are people who code for free, believe in the concept and don't get paid for their time. Many many more have jobs that involve contributing to Linux code as part or all of their job. The closest comparison I can make is something like the IEEE or ISO. These bodies have people working for them who contribute standards for everybody to use even though they don't make money by licensing or selling the standards they set. Just so does IBM and Novell and Red Hat and others have people contributing to software that everyone can use.
That is not a precise comparison but perhaps useful for getting an understanding. There is more to it than that but the system doesn't have to be full of people working for nothing just because the software is free.
203 • Re #165 etc, (by rglk on 2006-07-01 20:05:12 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Here is a correction of some facts about Libranet and Xandros that were misrepresented in this forum.
You HAD to pay for the current version of Libranet. The last one was v. 3 before the company closed. It cost $90. They did offer a version that you could download and install and pass around for free so that you could try out Libranet but that version was more than a year older than the current version.
I myself used that version for a while and although I thought that Libranet was superb I thought the $90 price tag to get the current version was too steep. I never came across any statement on the Libranet website or in their forum or by Jon or Tal Danzig that it was fine to pass around copies of the CD's of the current version and install and use that version without paying for it.
Libranet also never put the sources of their distro on their ftp server. If you wanted them, you had to buy them from Libranet for $25 per CD. The distro consisted of 5 CD's.
Also, the main value that they added to Debian, i.e. their famed xadminmenu application, the installer, etc. were proprietory, they didn't release the sources for those. I also doubt that they returned any of their own coding to the FOSS community or sponsored any open source projects.
Some facts about Xandros:
You have to pay for the current version 4 ($40 for the basic version). They also offer a free Open Circulation Edition so that you can try out Xandros for free. Currently this is the previous version 3.1 but it looks as though they will also put out an OCE version of v. 4, their most current offering.
Xandros has put the sources of their distro on their ftp server; they can be downloaded for free.
Like Libranet, Xandros hasn't released the source code of their many add-ons. They are not required to do so by the GPL.
My question to the ardent advocates of FOSS who have posted here: Why are you holding Libranet (which seems to be universally respected in the FOSS community) and Xandros to a different standard?
Robert
204 • Re #202 (by rglk on 2006-07-01 21:04:13 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Warpengi wrote:
"There is no such thing as pirating GPL software as has been well documented in previous posts. That is why the Xandros activation thing is bad. It helps create the concept of software piracy in free software. No matter how different it may be from Windows activation everyone thinks they are the same."
I agree that piracy of GPL software is an oxymoron. But there are distros that contain both GPL and non-GPL software, free (as in libre) and non-free software, and as a whole, I believe, they are considered non-free distributions.
Both Xandros and Libranet are examples of such a species as they contain non-free, closed source applications, e.g. all their value-added proprietory parts. If such a distro is distributed for pay (i.e. not "free of cost") and such distribution is regulated by a commercial, non-GPL licence (i.e. a EULA) and if someone violates the terms of such a licence by distributing the product for free (i.e. without cost, e.g. by passing it on to their friends) or by reselling it for money (as has frequently happened to Xandros), then that is software piracy. Hence you can have software piracy of a Linux distro.
Xandros isn't free software (as in libre), and neither is Mepis or Kanotix or PCLinuxOS (I believe) or Libranet or any other distro that includes non-free software such as RealPlayer, Java JRE, multimedia codecs and plugins, Macromedia Shockwave Flash, etc.
Xandros should perhaps have called their newly introduced Xandros Networks checking mechanism something other than "activation" ("download server registration"?), as it bears no resemblance to Windows "activation", a term that has acquired a negative connotation among many people. But why hold it against Xandros that there are individuals who get carried away with emotional outbursts rather than calmly checking the facts first? You as a thinking, informed person seem to know better.
Robert
205 • RE: #203 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-07-01 21:19:03 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"My question to the ardent advocates of FOSS who have posted here: Why are you holding Libranet (which seems to be universally respected in the FOSS community) and Xandros to a different standard?"
Because your facts are not quite right.
Yes, the cost of LN 3.0 was $90, but only for new users. Students, elderly and disabled could also get the discount, no questions asked.
"I never came across any statement on the Libranet website or in their forum or by Jon or Tal Danzig that it was fine to pass around copies of the CD's of the current version and install and use that version without paying for it."
That was discussed many, many times, and never once it was said that it wasn't OK, especially not by Jon or Tal. Proof might be that everybody who had a copy of LN 3.0 had access to the Libranet repositories, including of course updates.
Anyway, the Libranet forum is unavailable (forever?) but you can copy and paste your post to this forum:
http://www.debianquestions.com/
The site administator is danieldk, one of the 2 LN 3.0 developers, so he knows the ins and outs. He is extremely kind and helpful.
206 • The long and the short of it (by Videoguy on 2006-07-01 23:38:26 GMT from Houston, United States)
Robert wrote:
"I agree that piracy of GPL software is an oxymoron. But there are distros that contain both GPL and non-GPL software, free (as in libre) and non-free software, and as a whole, I believe, they are considered non-free distributions."
I believe that's correct. Having said that.....
The trend in possible solutions to the problem seems to be for companies, like Xandros that have decided to create non-free distributions, is to offer free distributions as well. Referring back to the Red Hat analogy for illustrative purposes, they sponsored the Fedora project for this as well as other purposes. Linspire, is in the process of doing much the same with Freespire.
This process should be applauded as, in so many instances, the company will voluntarily repay the community by "giving back" some of their proprietary code. It is unreasonable, however, to argue that a distribution containing GPL as well as proprietary code should be *compelled* to offer up their proprietary code at no charge whatsoever. All that *fluff* about offering a "crippled" version begs the conclusion that *some* folks want everything for free, as in beer.
It also seems unreasonable to single out only one distro as opposed to promoting a policy regarding all non-free distributions. One could reasonably argue that non-free distributions should not be covered on Distrowatch, if they offend so many people. If you're inclined to make that argument, let me reinterate an OT one as well....that there should be less "so-called" *distros* that are nothing more than derivitaves of upstreams with nothing more than a window manager and wallpaper change. Ooops, sorry...couldn't help myself.
Anonymous Penguin wrote:
"Yes, the cost of LN 3.0 was $90, but only for new users. Students, elderly and disabled could also get the discount, no questions asked.........Proof might be that everybody who had a copy of LN 3.0 had access to the Libranet repositories, including of course updates."
I'll take you're word for it. I would kindly observe that, while if indeed this was the policy of Libranet, I applaude it wholeheartedly. Xandros, however is not the same business. Therefore it cannot be held to the same policy.
Regards,
Videoguy
207 • Re #205 (by rglk on 2006-07-02 00:37:04 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Anonymous Penguin wrote:
"Because your facts are not quite right.
Yes, the cost of LN 3.0 was $90, but only for new users. Students, elderly and disabled could also get the discount, no questions asked."
Libranet 3 wasn't free of cost for ANYONE: cost for new users $90, cost of the upgrade for previous users $65, cost for the other parties you mentioned $65. And it wasn't free in the sense of the FSF - only the sources of the Debian base were open, those for their proprietary add-ons such as xadminmenu etc. were not.
In one respect they even required something akin to activation. E.g. how would Jon and Tal verify that you qualified for the discount rate as a previous user? Obviously you would have had to register your previous copy AND then contact Libranet AND identify yourself AND request the discount. If you couldn't identify yourself as a previous paying user with some kind of customer ID, you wouldn't get the discount. Registration? Identifying yourself? Begging for something? Good Lord! Yet undoubtedly, plenty of Libranet users, yourself probably included, accepted this scandalous intrusion into their privacy and restriction of their freedom without uttering a peep.
Yet, how is this much different from the maligned "activation" procedure a la Xandros that so many here violently rejected. With Xandros (and ONLY to get full access to the Xandros Networks download server) you have to register your copy (also necessary in case you wish to avail yourself of the 60 day FREE tech support) and then enter the activation code from the package you paid for ..... and you're set. And you don't have to request anything from Xandros until after you have crashed and reinstalled your OS 10 times!
Thank you very much for providing the link to one of the former Libranet developers; I may want to put some questions to him.
Robert
208 • Re: 205 (by Ian on 2006-07-02 02:11:06 GMT from Central District, Hong Kong)
Robert wrote:
"you have to register your copy ... and then enter the activation code from the package you paid for ..... "
Actually, you have to register your copy, then enter the serial number from the package, then ask Xandros to grant you an activation code. The activation codes don't come in the package, only the serial number comes in the package.
209 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-07-02 02:16:34 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"In one respect they even required something akin to activation. E.g. how would Jon and Tal verify that you qualified for the discount rate as a previous user? Obviously you would have had to register your previous copy AND then contact Libranet AND identify yourself AND request the discount. If you couldn't identify yourself as a previous paying user with some kind of customer ID, you wouldn't get the discount. Registration? Identifying yourself? Begging for something? Good Lord! Yet undoubtedly, plenty of Libranet users, yourself probably included, accepted this scandalous intrusion into their privacy and restriction of their freedom without uttering a peep."
You are incredibly stubborn! You were given a transaction number when you bought Libranet. When you bought the next release you could use that number in order to get your discount. No compulsory registration. Even if you didn't want to use that number you could get the same discount by declaring you were disabled, or a student, or a pensioner, no questions asked, the interpretation of those words was left to you.
This is the last time I post about this subject. You will *never* convince anybody that Libranet and Xandros are comparable in any way. Libranet was only an installer and a set of tools. Otherwise they always guaranteed full Debian compatibilty. This way your freedom was fully safeguarded: you weren't locked in in any way, like Xandros does.
But if you are so keen to discuss this matter further, post at:
http://www.debianquestions.com/
You'll find plenty of Libranetarians there. But I am afraid you'll come across as a troll.
210 • Re #209 (by rglk on 2006-07-02 04:36:51 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
"Otherwise they always guaranteed full Debian compatibilty. This way your freedom was fully safeguarded: you weren't locked in in any way, like Xandros does."
Your definition of freedom seems to be "full Debian compatibility". It wouldn't be shared by all, e.g. the Ubuntians get 100% Ubuntu compatibility but certainly not full Debian compatibility. Mixing Debian and Ubuntu repositories is a recipe for disaster. I know of only two distros in the Debian lineage that are guaranteed to be fully Debian compatible, Genie and Zen Linux.
Empirically, I can say that I've run into no trouble whatsoever with the 200+ packages that I've installed on top of my Xandros default install, some 95% of which originated from the standard Debian repository. That's 100% compatibility for these packages.
There hasn't been a single package that I'd wanted to install that I wasn't able to run in Xandros, either from the Debian repository, from generic binaries or from binaries that I compiled myself from source. It looks as though I'm quite free in Xandros, not locked into anything.
Robert
211 • Re: 210 (by Ian on 2006-07-02 04:49:11 GMT from Central District, Hong Kong)
Robert wrote:
"my Xandros default install, some 95% of which originated from the standard Debian repository."
Where did you get that 95% figure from, Robert?
212 • Re #210 (by rglk on 2006-07-02 04:54:31 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
"There hasn't been a single package that I'd wanted to install that I wasn't able to run in Xandros ..."
Sorry, I take that back, couldn't get aKregator to work in XS 3, perhaps it'll work in XS 4. There may have been a few other packages that I had to give up on, I could check my records.
This notion of being "locked in" into a proprietory OS that you're promoting here is nonsense, like several other misconceptions about Xandros that you've put forward here. If you know nothing about Xandros aside from hearsay, what's the point of speaking up.
Robert
213 • Re #211 (by rglk on 2006-07-02 05:22:25 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Ian wrote:
"Where did you get that 95% figure from, Robert?"
I would have thought that that would be obvious - I'm keeping a record of every package I install and where I got it from. The qualifier "some" indicates that this was a rough guess.
Since you seem to be merely interested in contrary nitpicking, I won't bother getting the exact figure although I easily could.
Robert
214 • RE: #212 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-07-02 05:32:15 GMT from Roma, Italy)
"This notion of being "locked in" into a proprietory OS that you're promoting here is nonsense, like several other misconceptions about Xandros that you've put forward here. If you know nothing about Xandros aside from hearsay, what's the point of speaking up."
Once again you are mistaken. I have tried Xandros, in the same way as I have tried hundreds of distro. I am a geek and I managed to dist-upgrade it to Debian. However "ordinary" users *have* to be satisfied with the rather limited Xandros repo.
215 • And now - fireworks! (by rglk on 2006-07-02 06:38:49 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
OK, Anonymous Penguin, Ian and perhaps a few others, I believe we have overstayed our welcome in this thread and/or in this forum, for the time being. I for one would like to extend the courtesy to others of vacating this thread in which we're beating a dead horse, so that a fresh subject may be introduced in the remaining time this week. Therefore goodbye to you and to this thread.
In the US, this is Independence Day Weekend, one of the biggest holidays. Everybody is taking off and taking it easy with outdoors barbacues and parades and fireworks on Tuesday. For the fireworks, I'll be going to a particularly nice venue outside of Boston that relatively few people know about and that will be attended by only around 500 or 600 people, not the vast mob that attends the big Boston fireworks along the Charles River (that can be 0.5-1 million people).
I'll be only 100 yards away from the launching ground and hence directly underneath the displays. This little (but very rich) community puts on some of the best fireworks I've ever experienced - and I've been spoiled by watching the famed Macy's fireworks on the East River in New York for more than 10 years when I was living in Manhattan. All right, so these L-S (I won't mention the name of the community) fireworks will not be as spread out as the big New York and Boston fireworks but they don't need to as everybody will be right next to and underneath them. This will be quite something, astonishing variety, artistry and choreography!!! I'm really looking forward to it.
So I'm taking my mind off argumentation and esoteric and inconsequential strife now, heading into this long weekend when everyone is laying low.
Have a good weekend, you guys, or what's left of it in your more advanced time zones.
Cheers,
Robert
216 • RE: #215 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2006-07-02 07:11:35 GMT from Roma, Italy)
Happy Independence Day then!
217 • Old harware and and running Linux on it (by Jari Aalto on 2006-07-02 08:25:12 GMT from , Finland)
LINUX FOR OLD MACHINES?
> (#92) As i have stated on my previous posting, i have researched and
> tried a dozen Linux distros(STX, Easys, Beatrix, FoxDesktop, PCLinux,
> DamnSmall, Vector, and more) , which cliamed to be running on old
> harwdware. I have also searched and dried BSD distros(except NetBSD).
> I have an old toshiba laptop(P-I) and many old desktops(at my local
> Community Center) ranging from Pentium-MMX to P-III and P4. And i
> wanted to replace Windowz9X on these relatively old machine with a
> Linux distro to NO avail--despite the fact there are more than 200
> distros are out there!
It would be interesting to hear what problems were found in Damn Small
Linux that is presumably the granddaddy of distributions designed for
old hardware.
In the mean time, there is relatively development going on to
put togetger "Debian for old hardware", which brings new life to old
PCs. The project targets to 166Mhz/64M machines, but might
work for older machines as well:
http://debian.cante.net/stem
The catch is that this is not a distribution "per se", but builds on top of
Debian. One needs to:
1) install standard Debian 3.x first, without selecting any packages
2) run projects's netinstall.sh script, that assembles the pieces suitable
for old hardware.
Jari
218 • 217 (by AC on 2006-07-02 09:28:37 GMT from , United States)
That's a very interesting project, one I'd not heard of. It goes to show what's been in my mind during these discussions: Debian (or Gentoo or Slackware or any of the BSDs) can easily run on such hardware. It's just a matter of package selection.
219 • Lean and mean minimal Linux (by rglk on 2006-07-02 17:09:48 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
Regrettably, the OP of this thread on "Linux on old hardware" didn't avail himself of all the good advice that's been offered to him. He tried one more obscure OS, DeLi, and then seems to have given up, raising a call instead for all the good coders of the world to unite and to hack a new distro according to the wanted specs. I don't think that's necessary at all. What he wants I'm sure is already there. In my response (#137), I posted a link to a website that tracks live CD's (some of which can also be installed to hard disk, or you could hack that). That site (http://www.frozentech.com) lists more than 50 distros that are smaller than 60 MB.
The idea of starting with the first stage of the Debian install (what they call the "base install", it takes up only around 90 MB, I believe) and then putting a minimal custom selection of packages on top of that had occurred to me too, and that's what the folks from Stem Desktop appear to have done.
I've been looking for a while for a lean and mean minimal Linux distro that could serve as a vehicle for learning more about the heart of Linux, i.e. the kernel, the core utilities, the important shells, networking, hardware support & device drivers, memory management, multiprocessor support etc., without drowning you in all the incidental bloat that you find in the average full-blown desktop distro.
Aside from the packages that support what I just described, I would need only a few lightweight applications, browser, newsreader, streaming audio player but no other multimedia, office applications, games, etc. The main objective is that I wind up with a system where I know what everything is doing and know it reasonably well, rather than having to wrestle with a big messy bowl of spaghetti where I know less than 5% of what all this stuff is doing.
I'm not limited by old hardware; in fact I'd be running this OS in part on a brand new, state-of-the-art machine with a dual core processor.
For a while, Feather filled the bill in my quest for such a distro, but then I found even Feather to be way too loaded (same goes for DSL). Slackware might be a good base for what I'm looking for, and I've checked out more than 15 slackware based distros without finding what I wanted. Perhaps slax-frodo with icewm plus some GUI apps added may do the trick. Also, there are many security-focussed distros that do have an essentialized lean Linux base system (e.g. INSERT).
For now, I commonly do my Linux explorations while I'm in Xandros which is my workhorse for painless, undemanding daily computing tasks, the kind of stuff that 500 million computer users do every day. Linux explorations can be done perfectly well in Xandros as well as in any other big distro but that's like getting around in an SUV rather than on bicycle. With the latter I know what every part is doing.
Any suggestions for what I'm looking for?
Stem desktop looks very interesting, and I'll be checking it out. Thanks for pointing this out.
Robert
220 • No subject (by AC on 2006-07-03 01:34:04 GMT from , United States)
"Linux explorations can be done perfectly well in Xandros as well as in any other big distro but that's like getting around in an SUV rather than on bicycle. With the latter I know what every part is doing."
You don't need to go on a lengthy quest. Extending your metaphor: building your bicycle gives you an even clearer idea what every part is doing. Start with a minimal Debian, Gentoo, or Slackware... or LFS. And add (or subtract) as your needs require and as your experience with various apps inform you. There's really no need to go searching for the "perfect" minimalist distro when you'll get there faster spending that time making one of the old standbys do what you want.
221 • Xandros (by Ian on 2006-07-03 02:11:35 GMT from Hong Kong, Hong Kong)
It seems that the Xandros servers are currently down, meaning that even legitimate customers with valid activation codes are currently unable to activate their product. Being a holiday weekend, people are currently unable to reach support for assistance. There is a discussion about this over on the Xandros Forums. As one guy wrote: "having a server go out on a major holiday is really bad timing."
222 • for gabriel with old toshiba (by zogger on 2006-07-03 04:47:30 GMT from , United States)
Try out Blueflops linux. I run it on an old satellite lappie with 16 megs ram. Uses two floppies, that's it! You can get online and surf with it, and potentially customise it from there depending on skillz. Here is their homepage URL for more details
http://blueflops.sourceforge.net/
223 • Re #220 (by rglk on 2006-07-03 05:33:20 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
I agree with your recommendations. As to LFS and Gentoo, I'd rather stay away from them, that's too much work for me.
This afternoon, I looked into Stem Desktop which is a little like GenieOS. You do a Debian base install and then you run a script that trims away some of the fat from the base install and adds a basic set of apps that have been carefully selected for low memory requirements, speed, reliance only on simple libraries (I think GTK 1 only), etc.
This project looks very interesting, and I'm planning to go ahead with this install.
Today I also downloaded the new Zenwalk live CD (called ZenLive). It's excellent!! ZenWalk is one of the nine distros that I have sitting on separate partitions of my two HDD's, and it's the one I most frequently boot into when I'm not using Xandros. It occurred to me that ZenWalk would be an excellent candidate for the lean, clean, and fast distro suitable for Linux exploration that I was looking for.
Robert
224 • Re #221 Xandros server down (by rglk on 2006-07-03 06:07:36 GMT from Edgewater, United States)
"having a server go out on a major holiday is really bad timing."
Well, it's not a major holiday in Canada where Xandros' servers are, and most Americans are away from their keyboards this very long weekend (July 4th is Tuesday), visiting family and friends and eating hotdogs. The Xandros guys will be back again on their jobs on Monday, 7 hours from now.
Also, the activation issue is irrelevant here because when the server is down, it's down for everyone, including users of Xandros 3.
This isn't the first time that their server has been down over a weekend; I've groaned about it 3 or 4 times before. They must have crappy hardware or software, and they don't seem to have anyone checking the equipment on a weekend.
Perhaps this is a good thing to happen, in the midst of this big spike of shipping the new product and the uproar over activation. Perhaps they'll get hell over this, and that'll improve the situation.
Robert
225 • distrowatch forum (by vampire_janus on 2006-07-03 07:23:28 GMT from , Philippines)
it seems that the number of comments are increasing tremendously i think that maybe a distrowatch forum would be needed. ladislav?
Number of Comments: 225
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