 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 146, 10 April 2006 |
Welcome to this year's 15th issue of DistroWatch Weekly. This will be an interesting week for distribution developers and beta testers - if everything goes according to the plan, the release candidate of the much delayed SUSE Linux 10.1 should be released later this week, together with the first beta of Ubuntu Linux 6.06. We'll also look at the events of the past week - the unexpected burial of the Fedora Foundation plans, troubles in Kubuntu, and elections of the new Debian Project Leader. As promised, the winners of the Beginning Ubuntu Linux competition are also announced. Happy reading!
 Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in ogg (5.87MB) or mp3 (7.21MB) format (courtesy of Shawn Milo).
 Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
Content:
Miscellaneous news: Fedora Foundation, Kubuntu troubles, Anthony Towns, future of Debian's AMD64 port
 Following the recent successful release of Fedora Core 5, Red Hat has now turned its attention to the legal and financial status of the popular free distribution. Although the company has been toying with the idea to set up a non-profit foundation as a way to organise and manage the development of Fedora Core, after dragging its feet for almost a year, the idea has now been officially discarded: "Last June, Red Hat announced its intention to launch the Fedora Foundation. We've had a lot of smart people working hard to make this Foundation happen, but in the end, it just didn't help to accomplish our goals for Fedora. Instead, we are restructuring Fedora Project, with dramatically increased leadership from within the Fedora community." Detailed explanation of the reasons behind dropping the Foundation and setting up Fedora Project Leadership Model has been published on the distribution's mailing list and summarised by Fedorazine.
 Is Kubuntu in trouble? As reported by OSNews and other web sites, it seems that some of the core members of the Kubuntu team are now officially on strike, threatening to close the Kubuntu.de portal and walk away from the project if their demands are not met. While the brief message on the above web site does not explain what exactly the Kubuntu developers want, it does mention "financial engagement" as one of the reasons for having to resort to such drastic actions. Less than two months before the final release of Ubuntu/Kubuntu 6.06 "Dapper Drake", this is an ill-timed attempt to gain attention and funding from Canonical. It will be interesting to watch how the company that sponsors the development of Ubuntu Linux responds to what is possibly its first major crisis. Although Kubuntu's Jonathan Riddell has played down the incident, the blackmailing attempt by a handful of Kubuntu contributors does not bode well for the popular distribution.
 The Debian Project has a new leader. Following the final election round last week, the Debian developer community has chosen Anthony Towns, an Australian, to be their next chief. Towns, the 9th Debian Project Leader, will take over the post on April 17th from incumbent Branden Robinson. The new leader became a Debian developer in early 1998; he has developed ifupdown and debootstrap and wrote patches for gzip, dpkg and pax. In recent years he was better known as a Debian release manager and was also involved in ftpmaster activity. For more information about Anthony Towns please visit his home page, blog and DPL Platform page. The final results of the Debian Project Leader elections can be found here.
Still on the subject of Debian GNU/Linux, Joerg Jaspert has announced that the project's AMD64 port is now officially included in the Debian unstable branch and will soon be added to the testing tree as well. As a result, users of the unstable and testing branches of the increasingly popular 64-bit platform should update their sources.list file to point to the new tree, rather than to amd64.debian.net, which will no longer be updated. Users of the stable Debian AMD64 port can continue to use the original FTP server and can obtain security patches from security.debian.org. For more information please see this announcement on the debian-devel-announce mailing list.
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| Competition: The winners of Beginning Ubuntu Linux |
Competition: The winners of Beginning Ubuntu Linux
 The first ever DistroWatch competition was a great success. Not only we received a large number of competition entries (nearly 200 in total), it also seems to have inspired great many attempts to try Ubuntu Linux as a real alternative to Windows. And although some people might have find the learning curve steep or the process of switching operating systems time-consuming, it is clear that many of you consider it to be a perfect solution to the troubles that plague the world of proprietary software, such as high cost, viruses and malware, and lack of freedom to modify and distribute software. Beginning Ubuntu Linux is a great beginner-friendly book that should make that major switch to freedom so much easier.
Alas, among the many competition entries, there was also an odd voice crying foul. Why do we promote Ubuntu Linux at the expense of other distributions? Aren't objectivity and unbiased coverage the main traits of DistroWatch? While it's true that this competition gives extra coverage to an operating system that is already on top of the page hit ranking statistics by a large margin, the fact remains that running an Ubuntu-specific competition is nothing but a coincidence. It could have been a different book! If authors of Fedora or SUSE books wish to promote their publications through a similar competition, they certainly won't be rejected!
The winners are listed below. The decision was extremely hard, since just about every competition entry was an excellent story or made a valid point. In the end, we decided on the ten winners (and list three extra entries in case some of the winners don't claim their prizes) based on various criteria, such as usefulness of the book to the person submitting the entry and how many people would benefit from it. We were also looking for that little extra that would make some entries stand out, e.g. humour, enthusiasm or inspiration. Geographical spread of the book's recipients was also one of the factors that influenced the final decision.
The winners who have not provided a postal address will be contacted in the next few days to claim their prize.
Here are the ten winning entries:
Joel Conary, USA: "I am a network administrator for a private high school. I inherited a library lab that had no centralized file server. Kids had to work on the exact computer where they had previously saved their documents. I attempted to solve this by building a Windows 2000 box out of spare parts and setting it up as a server. Unfortunately, Microsoft arbitrarily limits connections to non-server operating systems. So, essentially, the last two kids to log on to the lab weren't able to connect to the server. Having used various Linux distributions at home for some time, I decided to create a Samba server (which I'd never done before). I tried a few distributions and tutorials until I finally settled on Ubuntu and a guide from howtoforge.com. Now I have a fully functional file server that was a breeze to set up and I've saved the school some money to boot!"
Tom Mulgrew, USA: "My wife and I are starting a project in our community refurbishing old computers and giving them to indigent/needy people who otherwise cannot afford computers. We 'wipe' the donated hard drives and install Ubuntu. We are in Helena Montana and hope to go state wide over the next year (up to now we have a limited number of donated hardware, but you should have seen the joy we have brought to a few needy individuals). My wife handles the procurement of old computers and distribution of "new" systems. I handle the hardware/software installation. I also am starting a formal adult education course this fall teaching how to install and use Linux. My recommendation for improvement on Ubuntu is on the live CD. The CD is not as user-friendly or intuitive as other live CDs and can put off new users."
Pierre Slamich, France: "I actually switched to Ubuntu by chance. At the time, my parents had barred me the way to the computer with a password and I was using a Knoppix live CD to get access to the Internet. I had several times attempted to install it on the hard drive on a new partition, but I would get permissions errors. As I was running from a live CD, I couldn't burn any other distribution that would help me really jump into Linux. It was really by chance that I discovered Ubuntu. I delved into the distribution, and I found out that it had a really good echo, and I soon couldn't resist the temptation. Taking advantage of the fact that Windows had been left opened by a member of the family, I burnt an install Ubuntu. And then, even though dual boot was possible, I erased all the hard drive! No way back! But I haven't regretted it many times since then. My sisters have...."
Fadain Tariq, Pakistan: "Making people convert from Windows which is easy to use and compatible with most of the software and costs less than 1 dollar here in the pirates infested world of Pakistan, to an OS which is somewhat not that noob friendly, has an alien interface (to new users), which doesn't run *.exe (out of the box) and costs almost the same (cost of medium), is a very difficult task. It's easy to lure people in countries where piracy is illegal to try out Linux which comes with tons of applications and all for free. But here, things are different. You can get Windows XP, Windows Server 2003, Norton System Utilities, anything for a buck. So to convert people here from Windows to Linux, you have to convince them that Linux is superior, it's more user friendly, it's secure, it's easy to maintain. ... Thanks to Ubuntu, the learning curve is no longer steep. Today you can install any software you want in an instant using the great 'Synaptic'. Administration and maintenance is easy due to all the utilities GNOME provides. After so long, Ubuntu is the distro which was needed here. I see computer labs in universities and colleges running Ubuntu, I see people giving away free Ubuntu disks at computer shops, I see numerous local communities promoting Ubuntu. I see change, I hear bells...."
Jeff Cavins, USA: "Over a year ago I inherited my unemployed brother-in-law, Ron. Ron was a construction worker, and in his entire 42 years he had never used a PC. Web surfing appealed to his couch potato ways, and he quickly took control of the family computer. To say the least, his web surfing ways were promiscuous. Soon I was experiencing frequent infestations with viruses and malware requiring weekly maintenance. This culminated one Sunday when Windows XP lost complete access to the Internet less than 24 hours after I had purged the system of the latest infestation. Ubuntu Linux presented itself as a clear solution to my problem. Within four hours of making my decision, I had downloaded and installed a complete copy of Ubuntu on the infested machine. Despite Ron's continued forays into the Internet, the system has remained virus and malware free for over five months, thanks to Ubuntu."
Md Ali Yasser, India: "I moved to Ubuntu for several reasons. People here mostly use pirated copies of Windows, including my own family and probably my college as well. I consider piracy unethical and illegal so I did not want to use pirated stuff and hence moved to Linux. Ubuntu detected all my hardware and is truly a distro one of its kind as it offers us the best of both worlds - the 'bleeding-edgeness' of RPM distros and the wonderful package management of Debian's APT. In short, a bleeding-edge Debian-based distro! Last but not the least, it has a large and helpful community which matters a lot. I reallllyyyy love Ubuntu for what it is and for the principles it stands for. I just hope the Ubuntu makers provide extra CDs for the many people like me who have slow or no Internet connection."
Kim Connors, Canada: "It was on this April 4th, 2006 morning that I rang my father on his 71st birthday. StanTheMan, as his email address reads, is a retired barber with an enduring passion for his world of Linux. Our conversation quickly shifted towards the latest open source news and my Ubuntu plan for his PC. I voiced about the simplicity, the impeccable font display on my 19" LCD screen and a host of features that renders others obsolete. His tone was clearly one of excitement as this senor citizen now anticipated Breezy 5.10. His favorite software, ease of updating and exceptional hardware support made it an easy decision for me. Ubuntu will make Stanley's daily Internet hobby a pleasant one without negative the trappings of his antiquated Windows XP."
Simon Harris, UK: "From Windows to Ubuntu? I didn't. I haven't had MS Windows in the house for at least 5 years. I took a path less travelled and swapped my MacOS on a G3 iBook for a shiny Ubuntu desktop. True, there are a few things which don't work out of the box, although given the excellent community built around Ubuntu the only ones which are insurmountable at the moment are all to do with proprietary file formats (Flash and WMV playback). With Apple moving away from PPC it is useful to have an alternative to running outdated software or buying a new machine."
Cleophas Fambi, Zimbabwe: "My experience in Zimbabwe has shown me that it's not sustainable to use Windows. With average salaries for a graduate ranging around Z$11 million (my average) and XP costing Z$75 million, no new installation makes economic sense. Add to this the lack of security, stability, openness and free advice one would not be wrong to conclude that this OS is not suitable for learning purposes. I have made bold moves to start using Linux by registering with Ubuntu and they sent me copies of 5.10. I installed it on my PC and now I am learning the ropes. The rest of the CDs I distributed to friends. I can make copies without becoming a criminal."
Paulo Chumbo, Portugal:
"My life was dull and boring, because Linux I was ignoring.
I just didn't know, why my computer was so slow.
Until someone did suggest, that I put Linux to the test.
But the choice was so much more... there where distros galore.
So I went upon a quest, to determine which was best.
Of all the sites I knew by name, DistroWatch had the most fame.
So I searched through all the news, and read all of the reviews.
And from most who spoke their voice, Ubuntu was their top choice.
They wrote with such precision, that I came to a decision.
The searching had gone by, Ubuntu I wanted to try.
But beginning I'm only just, so read a book to learn I must.
And if you think that I should win, I'll take Ubuntu for a spin and put Windows in the recycle bin."
And now for the three extra entries that deserve a honourable mention:
Charles E Winfield, USA: "I have persuaded a candidate for State Superintendent of Education of South Carolina (Mr. Kerry Wood, a seasoned commercial programmer) to adopt as part of his platform the state-wide adoption of Edubuntu utilizing thin clients and one server per school. Then, using these thin clients and Edubuntu proceed to issue one thin client computer per child (student). This is the South Carolina version of One Laptop Per Child. We agreed that this would be the backbone of his campaign and would allow South Carolina to proceed from last place to the top ten states in K-12 education within eight years. Lets hope and pray that this visionary man wins the election on June 13, 2006. Thank you very much for helping educate the children of South Carolina. We feel that we will graduate many more engineers, doctors and lawyers with this approach."
Shui Zhou, China: "I had been long to Linux it was said that people in that world help each other and make their own contribution as they can while everything is commercial in Windows. But it was just simply too hard for a beginner to use Linux. Until, I found Ubuntu. It was the first time that I could install Linux all by myself. It was the first time that I could find some well-maintained documents in Chinese for a Linux distro. Then, for the best part, the Ubuntu CDs were shipped to my house, which is in China, for totally free. It means much more than good price to me."
Simon Gerber:
"DRM, fragmented drive. Regedit, restore – can't survive!
System tray is creeping west. Gotta get this off my chest.
Tech support at 3:00am, “The printer's spewing up again!”
Chaos, madness, .msi. All this clicking – RSI.
Mail folders missing too. What's with the colours, all that blue?
Performance fading out of sight. No anti-virus? Kidding, right?
Spyware, trojans, virus, worms. Pop-ups, hijacks, adware, pr0n.
Zombie botnet, macro, crash. VB, bluescreen, hard-drive thrash.
Notepad, paint, security. Activation CD-key.
Registry and rootkits too, what on earth am I to do!?"
If you didn't win, don't despair. 90% of all entries deserved to win the book, but unfortunately there can only be ten winners. Thank you for your participation and better luck next time!
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| Released Last Week |
Zenwalk Linux 2.4
A new major release of the Slackware-based Zenwalk Linux is ready: "Our latest release sports a brand new 2.6.16.1 kernel, and the latest udev, which provides improved support for hotplugging devices - cleaning up the remains of the old hotplug system. Now that the transition to a full udev is complete, we were also able to remove the discover service. The changes were not limited to the base system though; with the 2.4, a series of updated packages will be released (nearly 130 packages)." Read the full release announcement for further details.
Sun Wah Linux 1.5
Sun Wah Linux is the first commercial operating system in China that is based on Debian GNU/Linux and utilises Debian package management tools. Sun Wah Linux RAYS LX 1.5, which even just named as a Best Desktop Solution finalist for LinuxWorld Product Excellence Awards, is now publicly available. This release focuses on system stability and security, and features usability and easy of use. It is based on kernel 2.6.15 with security patches, OpenOffice 2.0, and GNOME 2.12. Find more details in the official release announcement (in Chinese).
FreeNAS 0.65
FreeNAS is a free NAS server based on FreeBSD. It supports CIFS (samba), FTP, NFS, RSYNC protocols, local user authentication, and software RAID. FreeNAS 0.65 is based on FreeBSD 6.1-PRERELEASE #10. New features in this release: "MS Windows Domain authentication; Apple File Protocol (AFP); Announce FreeNAS services with Zeroconf (howl); iSCSI initator (NOT TESTED)." Read the announcement and the full changelog on its home page and SourceForge.
Kororaa Xgl Live CD 0.2
The Kororaa project has released an installable Xgl Live CD 0.2, codename "blood, sweat and tears": "We have hacked our Kororaa Installer to work with this Xgl Live CD, so easy installation is now possible! This version also sports both Radeon and Intel DRI support, KDE 3.5.2, updated Gnome 2.14, Arch-CK 2.6.16 Kernel, SCSI support and more! There are many many new features for you, some of which are listed below. Please see the Kororaa installation manual for detailed instructions if you require a guide for the install process." Find more details on the project's home and download pages.
Lunar Linux 1.6.0
After over half a year of work on their first 2.6.x kernel based ISO series, the developers of the source-based Lunar Linux released their 1.6.0-i686 Installer ISO, codename "Indium Antimonide", to the public: "This is a major step forward from the 1.5.x series releases, adding a lot of features to Lunar-Linux installs, such as SELINUX, NPTL threads, udev, and more 2.6-kernel related improvements to the Linux OS. This release also adds the user-friendly installer and refines it greatly. It adds better hardware recognition and module loading options, an easier way to setup compilers against kernel sources and headers, and easier compiler optimisation management with a completely pluggable package management tool. The installer is now also capable of installing and initialising software RAID." Read the complete release announcement.
FoX Desktop 1.0 Professional
The first Professional edition of FoX Desktop Linux, a Fedora-based desktop-oriented distribution, is now freely available. Main characteristics and novelties introduced: "Desktop enhancements; structure based on patches for Fedora Core 4; all the bugs of the version Lite have been corrected; GNOME now present; introduced new technology of Fedora CORE 5; new management of the dynamic frequency for the processor; FoXPowerUP and Control Centre strengthened and corrected; introduced new software channels; possibility to use the CD/DVD with smart; introduced all the languages for KDE and other programs; speed further increased." See the complete release notes for additional information.
CRUX 2.2
CRUX 2.2 final has been released: "We are happy to announce that after a long time in development, CRUX 2.2 is finally released. The highlights of this release include udev support out of the box, GCC 4.0.3, glibc 2.3.6 and X11R6.9. For more information, have a look at the release notes. We are also sad to report that Per Lidén, the creator of CRUX, has retired from the project because of personal reasons. CRUX will, however, live on as a team effort developed by the former CLC (CRUX Linux Community) team. We wish Per good luck in his future endeavours and thank him for providing a stable base for us to improve on." Read the brief release announcement on the project's home page.
BeleniX 0.4.2
The OpenSolaris-based BeleniX live CD has been updated to version 0.4.2. What's new? "This is primarily a bug-fix release with a few software upgrades and boot time improvements. The details: the BeleniX FAQ is now online at the Genunix WIKI; fixed the locale issue in BeleniX's X.Org 6.9.0 build; modified OpenMotif to be more compatible with Solaris motif; included libusb and libusbugen from the recently released SFW consolidation source code; fixed some issues with the 'startkde' and 'startxfce' scripts; included SVR4 packaging tools (as in Solaris) so commands like 'pkgadd' and 'pkgrm' work; included a modified 'pkg-get' script...." See the remainder of the release announcement on the project's home page.
grml 0.7
A new version of grml, a Debian-based live CD designed for users of text tools and system administrators, has been released. What's new? "bt-audio: script to connect bluetooth headset to computer; get_tw_cli: get 3ware RAID controller command line interface tool; event-viewer: program to see all fork, exec, exit, uid and gid events on a running system; VMware: disable USB and Firewire detection during boot process, load some SCSI-modules instead ; check for given MBR option and prompt for activating it if not set; changed initrd and initramfs generator from yaird to initramfs: now booting via firewire is also possible...." More details can be found in the release announcement.
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Development and unannounced releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
Xandros Server
According to this report in Computer Business Review Online, Xandros Corporation has announced a date of the release of its first server product - Xandros Server. The new product aims to combine the power of Linux with the simplicity of Windows administration by providing intuitive graphical management tools, targeting small- and medium-size businesses. A groupware solution with email, calendaring and Outlook support will also be included. The release date of Xandros Server has been set to 1 May 2006.
Summary of expected upcoming releases
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| DistroWatch.com News |
New distributions added to the waiting list
- Ekaaty Linux. Ekaaty Linux is a Fedora-based light-weight operating system designed for use with common hardware and software in Brazil and aimed for use on Brazilians desktops.
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DistroWatch database summary
That's all for today. The next issue of DistroWatch Weekly will be published on Monday, 17 April 2006. See you then :-)
Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Kubuntu (by B. Daley on 2006-04-10 15:02:46 GMT from Montral, Canada)
It just occurs to me, that why really would the Folk at Ubuntu really care about Kubuntu, considering that Mepis will be moving over to Ubuntu, Mepis being KDE would pick up the slack (pardon the pun) that Kubuntu leaves.
2 • latest issue/contest (by ray carter at 2006-04-10 15:06:42 GMT from Meridian, United States)
Interesting to read the contest entries. I'd suggest in the future, leave it a little more open - why just MS to Ubuntu? Over a year ago I installed Mandrake on the public access internet computers at the local library where they had previously used MS. To say this has been a success would be an understatement. After about 14 months, NO complaints, and no malware infestations. A customer satisfaction survey a few months ago showed universal acceptance, and a few patrons showed, by their responses, that they were unaware they were not using MS. The director is ecstatic! Before Linux came in, she was called to the floor at least three times per day to help patrons with internet problems - last 14 months she has not been called at all. I go by every two or three weeks to do updates, etc. and that's about it for maintenance. We're currently installing a turnkey RHEL based four headed system to add more seats since the current positions are full nearly all the time from opening time to closing. I will probably convert the Mandrake stations to (K)Ubuntu this summer.
3 • Another brazilian distro (by Flavio on 2006-04-10 15:07:30 GMT from So Caetano Do Sul, Brazil)
Another brazilian distro.. we have here hundreds... but I must say, people here prefere release a new distro every week to help an existent project...
Good luck to Ekaaty...
4 • Quick explanation (by ladislav on 2006-04-10 15:17:28 GMT from Hsingya, Taiwan)
Sorry guys, it's a bit rushed today. I came back yesterday after a week in Japan and found that my main production box had crashed badly during my absence. I even had to reformat my /home partition and restore data from a backup! Also, I can no longer burn CDs and DVDs for some reason, so some of the distribution pages are not yet updated - sorry about that. I am worried that there is something wrong with the motherboard....
I hope to catch up with all the updates tomorrow - provided that I can fix the CD/DVD writer!
5 • Jonathan Riddell sucks (by Rohan Dhruva on 2006-04-10 15:31:20 GMT from , India)
Hi,
Great dw issue as usual ..
I am sad to see that kubuntu.de team is in trouble. Its hard to ignore the fact that canonical supports only gnome after this event. And, JRiddell, in his blogpost, is acting rude and ignorant. Please see my comment on the main post --
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1917
I am not advertising or anything, just showing my views, which are, yes, quite strong.
Rohan
6 • System Requirements for Ekaaty (by rahim on 2006-04-10 15:38:05 GMT from Southfield, United States)
I can't find anything re: system requirements for Ekaaty in Portuguese or English. Anyone have any idea? I'm interested that it is supposed to be less resource intensive.
7 • Sun Wah Rays LX 1.5 (by William Johnson on 2006-04-10 15:57:34 GMT from Wilmington, United States)
Their download servers are very sloooow but the wait is worth
it. It is very easy to install and use, I love the use of sounds
for various operations, it's not overdone. Auto-plays cds and
dvds. I'm not a big fan of Gnome but i can live with it.Love to
see them put KDE on it though, i like K3B over GnomeBaker
any day.
8 • why so angry? (by atk406 on 2006-04-10 15:57:36 GMT from Bismarck, United States)
What is your reason for a personal attack on Jonahtan Riddell? I have read his comments...and yours...I see nothing pointing to rudeness or ignorance on his part, only yours. You obviously have a problem with him getting paid, what else?
9 • Ubuntu Linux 6.06 (by Nick at 2006-04-10 15:59:41 GMT from Wichita, United States)
How come Ethereal is not in the apt repositorie for Ubuntu Linux 6.06?
10 • Kubuntu, Debian, Suse (by towsonu2003 on 2006-04-10 16:01:43 GMT from Baltimore, United States)
"Less than two months before the final release of Ubuntu/Kubuntu 6.06 "Dapper Drake", this is an ill-timed attempt to gain attention and funding from Canonical." I couldn't agree with this more. Couldn't they wait a little more? Hopefully, Mepis' use of Kde+Ubuntu will help fix things in Kubuntu.
As for Debian, is there any news from their LiveCD project? I'd love to try Debian using a LiveCD!
Now, I'm going to my "Waiting for Suse 10.1" mode. Time passes too slowly!
11 • @9 (by towsonu2003 on 2006-04-10 16:03:08 GMT from Baltimore, United States)
Did you enable extra repos for that? If yes, try asking it on ubuntuforums.org...
12 • Kubuntu's "requests" (by A. Gered on 2006-04-10 16:04:12 GMT from Wien, Austria)
In the german version the expression used is "Anfragen", which translates to "questions", "inquiries" or "requests". So in the first place the team wants answers, rather than (financial) support. Though I can well imagine, that some requests are about allocating additional resources to kubuntu.
13 • @ Nick (by A. Gered on 2006-04-10 16:09:49 GMT from Wien, Austria)
It's in universe.
For seeing, if a package you want is included in Ubuntu, search your version's database in http://packages.ubuntulinux.org/
14 • Kubuntu (by Joeb on 2006-04-10 16:11:29 GMT from Pleasant Hill, United States)
Since the official Kubuntu site refers to the Riddell blog entry as the official resolution, it seems that the OS News article and Distrowatch for emphasizing it are in error as to the cause.
Normally, I applaud Distrowatch's coverage of events, but if the official response is that the flap was over the delay in getting an account set back up on the server, then the linux community would have been better served by that piece of news versus perpetuating the blackmail theory.
If you stop and think about it, such a move would do much more harm to Kubuntu than Ubuntu and therefore would seem to be unlikely. Riddell's comments seem to make much more sense.
Just my two cents (or euros).
15 • donation suggestions (by Chris on 2006-04-10 16:54:30 GMT from London, United Kingdom)
I wish to suggest a student bursary award that rewards contributions to ReactOS, Haiku and Syllable. If distrowatch was to offer a single annual award to the student who contributed the most lines of code accepted by one of the projects in a year, then this would encourage competitiveness amongst students and increase the number of developers contributing code.
The projects ReactOS, Haiku and Syllable have been in alpha stage for a few years and I understand that Open Source projects have to compete for mindshare but I wonder if non *nix projects are at disadvantage in attracting media attention from the community? Does the replication and duplication amongst distros prove that *nix based distros attract more than their fair share of media attention?
Does alpha stage affect these projects adversely in their ability to compete for mind share in the open source community?
If these non *nix projects were able to move beyond alpha stage would that allow them to compete equally with *nix for mind share in the open source community?
16 • No subject (by Ramjet on 2006-04-10 17:13:49 GMT from Dalkeith, Australia)
To my disapointment I had noticed that KDE has been ignored in dapper despite grand statements from mark shuttleworth that more effort would be put into it. This is evident just from reading each release announcement that comes with new beta's .. all the attention is on new gnome functions or applications.
I dont think its fair to blame anyone for this shortfall, Ubuntu started out with the objective of being the best gnome desktop around, any other environment was always just going to be an addon.
Anyway I dont mind because I fully expect mepis to release an excelent KDE distro as they always do, this tim ebased on ubuntu.
17 • Is Kubuntu in trouble? (by Anonymous on 2006-04-10 17:47:21 GMT from Gretna, United States)
Wow. I wonder why businesses still don't trust Linux.
18 • Linux Misconceptions (by Ray Shangart on 2006-04-10 18:11:00 GMT from Saint Clair Shores, United States)
Im still amazed at the fact that users of one Gnu/Linux distro would have a hard time on any other Unix system. Unless your an absolute newbie, the learning curve from one distro to the other is null. The same goes for apps, some are slightly hard to learn but there's a lot of documentation, and user forums are a big help, as well as man pages. Take for instance the comment from entry 7 "i like K3B over GnomeBaker
any day." Whats the difference? lets examine: they both burn cd's the same way for me. they both have an easy to learn ui. they can both burn dvd's, or blank cdrw's. Gnu/Linux has come a VERY long way just in the four years that I have been using it. I don't see any need for dual booting, Most distros come with a multitude of application's so I don't miss windows at all. The security of Gnu/Linux is beyond compare. I could go on and on. My point is this: is Fedora core any easier to install than Debian? Ask a user of Ubuntu that question. Is Slackware harder to install than Suse? No. I have installed a fair share of Unix systems, and only the broken one's were a challenge. I think it give's newcomers an uneasy feeling when they read comment's like "Slackware is not user friendly" or if you have a question about FreeBSD your snapped at with "RTFM" More than anything Unix is a community of people that should be supportive of one another. So let's enjoy what we have here and try to work together to bring an easier way of computing to the world.
19 • Re:16 (by Anonymous on 2006-04-10 18:11:15 GMT from Pleasant Hill, United States)
Since Ubuntu is a Gnome distribution, shouldn't it's efforts be for gnome funcitons and applications? I thought it was Kubuntu's role to deal with the KDE portions which are then submitted to the Ubuntu repositories.
20 • distrowatch not just distrorelease (by Greg on 2006-04-10 18:51:46 GMT from Victoria, Canada)
Why I like!
I really like distrowatch. I find it the best resource to find out what is going on with distributions. I can't think of any other resource that comes close to sharing news about what is going on with all the distributions. If anyone reading this can please feel free to send me an email. A site like this really is necessary for the community of distribution users and those thinking about becoming users.
An example of what I think could make it even better!
Wouldn't it be cool to have have a weekly update in the Distrowatch Weekly about what has been going on in each distribution. Obviously this would need to be some sort of group effort. People would volunteer to share the information they know about the distributions they follow. People could submit them as a special type of comment.
21 • @18 : atk406 (by Rohan Dhruva on 2006-04-10 19:05:07 GMT from , India)
All I want to say more -- why dont you pay for the funding of kubuntu.de ? However, Matthew East made it clear, and i must agree, that I am in error.
Rohan.
22 • Kubuntu troubles not as bad as kubuntu.de made it look (by Oliver on 2006-04-10 19:14:25 GMT from Amsterdam, Netherlands)
Source: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1917
"kubuntu.de published a note today that Canonical had not answered their requests. Their article makes everything sound much worse than it is. The problem was that when kubuntu.org moved to a new host the sysadmin request to recreate Amu's account never got answered. Amu makes the cool Live CDs that get published along with KDE releases so it's obviously very useful for him to have an account. I should have poked Canonical's sysadmin to remind him but the account has now been added so problem solved. This doesn't mean, as some people seem to have suggested, that Canonical is in any way dropping support for Kubuntu, they continue to be wonderfully supportive, both to the community of developers and commercially if you want to buy a support contract off them."
23 • Kubuntu (by Mereo on 2006-04-10 20:39:22 GMT from Burlington, Canada)
What makes Kubuntu so important??? If you want a KDE based OS then choose something like PCLinuxOS or Mempis. Working with an open source project then you have to deal with the fact you work mostly for free anyway...
24 • 23 (by AC on 2006-04-10 21:21:57 GMT from , United States)
Far be it from me to speak for K/Ubuntu users as I'd much sooner recommend pure Debian or perhaps Kanotix, but I am sure that one reason for preferring Kubuntu to Mepis has to do with the proprietary components in Mepis. I don't know about PCLinuxOS. I'd also guess that even Ubuntu users may want at least a few KDE apps fully supported by Ubuntu. K3B comes to mind. Also, lot of people like switching between environments for different tasks without having to reboot, so if the like Ubuntu's GNOME but want KDE sometimes...
One could as easily ask however, what makes ANY other GNU/Linux distribution important? Choose Debian.
25 • Xandros (by Anonymous on 2006-04-11 00:17:15 GMT from Durham, United States)
Seems like Xandros is making some good strides forward in the news lately, especially with their "server" software to be released in May.
I'm looking forward to their next "desktop" release, version 4.0, supposedly in June.
Anyone know what it will be like and what version of KDE it will be using?
26 • Kubuntu troubles not as bad as kubuntu.de made it look (by Paul on 2006-04-11 00:24:34 GMT from Saint Louis, United States)
Perhaps one contributing factor is honor. I've been fortunate to work with many gifted people who want nothing more than my respect. I can understand how a matter that seems trivial to all of us, may seem disrespectful to people of extraordinary talent.
27 • K3b on Ubuntu (by Michael Hunt on 2006-04-11 00:59:48 GMT from Buffalo Grove, United States)
Why not the best of both worlds? I use K3B on my Gnome desktop all the time. Downloaded it from the Ubuntu repository and It works great, try it.
28 • No subject (by AC on 2006-04-11 02:18:58 GMT from , United States)
Yes, you can certainly use K3B with GNOME. The point though was that because of Kubuntu, K3B is no longer in universe, so it's supported.
29 • tired of *ubuntu (by postaldave on 2006-04-11 02:35:11 GMT from Lexington, United States)
i for one just don't care.
if you are at digg, /. , distrowatch.... anything it's always something about *ubuntu.
*ubuntu is to linux as AOL is to the ISP world.
how can one distro make so much constant noise.
30 • Damage done! (by Robzilla on 2006-04-11 03:15:10 GMT from Newport Beach, United States)
I have to say that I disagree with the comment by 18.
The damage has been done by windows. People are sheep and have been herded into believing Windows is the best and it is the only thing they have ever used.
Now as for Linux being just as easy as Windows I disagree. It is easier once you understand it. However........
No matter what distro you use there is a learning curve. If you have never used Linux before and tryed to install Slackware you would be lost. Say they install it o.k. and log in, then what, how many would know to type startx?? Every distro has a different way of doing things some very easy to some more complex. Once you get the hang of it and hang in there it is easy and I would say easier than Windows. However, it is not just an easy switch. Distros like PCLinux make Linux easier than ever. Making the switch is not just about ease of use it is about what you are used to and how you have been condition to expect things to work. If people can open there mind and get past their conditioning then they can taste the fruits of Linux.
It took me a year to be really comfortable with Linux and hundreds of distro installs. Most people I try to tell about Linux are so steadfast in there belief that Windows and the software that runs in Windows is best. I guess they like spending all of there money on buggy software and time scanning for spyware, virili, and other Malware!
I think the worst thing you can do is tell people new to Linux that it is so easy and you can run in in no time. Be honest. Tell them it will take some time but once you get it, Linux is easier than Windows, way more advanced, more stable, and incredibliy great free software!! Build peoples expectations of ease and then they try once and don't get it and never use Linux again!!!
R
31 • Re 18 (by Robzilla on 2006-04-11 03:22:53 GMT from Newport Beach, United States)
O.k. I did not read you were talking newbies to Linux and not newbies switching from windows. However I do think there are a lot of differences between distros. Some may be slight but some are quite dramatic. I mean take installing Debian vs. PCLinux OS a big difference in use and instalation.
Beyond dramatic differences every distro I have ever used does things differently. That is what is great because you may tend to like the way one does it over another but you will have to learn the way each distro does things.
R
32 • enlightenment (by eric on 2006-04-11 04:49:46 GMT from Pleasant Valley, United States)
I read lots of comments about gnome and kde on this site, but have yet to see much mention of the fast, lean, yet still eyecandy rich, fully themeable window manager Enlightenment. E17 in particular (still in development stages) I believe can become the window manager of choice for most if not all distros. Simply put, I feel that the strife between wm's won't end by the cooperation of kde and gnome, but the meteoric rise of E17 while the others fall by the wayside. Obviosly after the enormous work put into kde and gnome they won't go easily into the night but will require a major leap to catch up to where e17 is going.
33 • No subject (by AC on 2006-04-11 05:27:41 GMT from , United States)
People don't talk so much about E17 because the development has been so slow, while 16 has a lot of bugs that have never been and likely never will be fixed. Enlightenment has been going places for a long time. Whether it ever gets there is another question entirely. Anyway, apart from vague claims about where Enlightenment is going, what specifics really make it superior?
(I'm not knocking it, just suspicious of hype without specifics.)
34 • RE: enlightenment (by Matt on 2006-04-11 06:50:14 GMT from Houston, United States)
Enlightenment (E17) does have a nice look to it, and some of the things I have read about the underlying processes that drive the WM be faster than most, seem revolutionary (as if I knew what I was talking about). But I find that it is difficult to navigate. Sure I can find my way to open an app, but once opened there are no menus where other window managers (including microsoft and Mac) have menus. Clicking on the gray bar across the top of the window gives only menu items about the window itself, not the program running within it. I tried to burn a cd in elive, and once the cd burning utility was opened I was reminded of my old Qbasic days with the antiquated look being displayed on the screen (320 X 240 DPI) minus the menus (which Qbasic had) so clicking "file, save as" is not an option. I do agree that they have Eyecandy, but it is no where near ready for prime time.
35 • Kubuntu / MEPIS (by A. Gered on 2006-04-11 07:16:58 GMT from Wien, Austria)
The main difference between Kubuntu and the majority of the other KDE-based distros is, that it recieves financial support. In this regard it is, I think, only second to SUSE.
MEPIS will always remain MEPIS, even if the repos are taken from Ubuntu. There will be no monetary support by Canonical.
Kubuntu has done a lot to enhance the desktop experience, compared to raw KDE. But GNOME has had even bigger support with new apps being developed. There may be only one dedicated GNOME-developer, but the people working on the base-system focus on integrating into the GNOME-environment and tweaking GNOME-apps. The KDE-apps are left for the Kubuntu-devs.
Now the real question, and the possibly the answer most of the Kubuntu-community is eagerly waiting for is: will Canonical support KDE as much as it does GNOME?
Canonical has every right to focus on a single desktop-environment. But if so, they should make it clear. Up to now, they have affirmed their commitment to KDE and Kubuntu (see link below), but the results are missing.
http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php
36 • Try Knoppix 4.0 CD or DVD for KDE (by hobbitland on 2006-04-11 08:14:28 GMT from London, United Kingdom)
Hi, I suggest try Knoppix 4.0 if you like KDE. In the past Ubuntu and
Kubuntu have all been very buggy. I colly at work bumped into a
Ubuntu salesman in a hotel and told me him said Ubuntu 6.06 has
been delayed to make things more stable. If they are not going to
support Kubuntu to the same level as Ubuntu then I won't try them again.
I have tried many Linux distributions and seem to keep going back to
Knoppix. I used Knoppix 3.3. on my older machine. Bough a new
machine a couple of months ago. Ubuntu and Kubuntu won't even boot.
Suse 10.0 won't recognise the sound. YAST (yet another stupid tool)
cause me headacrhes. Won't try Mandriva again as that's gone bad.
I have also tried Debian 3.1r1 which is hard install to (Note Ubuntu uses
same installer) and it works but did not recognise my USB2 or sound.
Updated kernel to Linxu 2.6.15 from etch and everythign works. But
locales are broken
I am now using Knoppix 4.0 CD version with hard disk install using
"knoppix-installer" script. Knoppix still seems to have the best hard
ware support anbd the instalelr is the simplest of all distrivbutions.
Best of all it comes with MPEG and MP3 playback as standard unlike
Added more stuff from Debian 3.1r1 reposy Ubuntu and SuSE which
need to DL some stuff.
I have tried both PCLinuxOS and MEPIS. Don't like either and don't
seem as stable as Knoppix for me!!!
37 • kde (by G Rajesh on 2006-04-11 10:15:49 GMT from New Delhi, India)
I just do not understand why kde is ignored by enterprise-oriented distributions. Kde of Suse made me switch from windows. Now it seems suse too seems to move toward gnome. Well, I thought kubuntu may be a good replacement. Now, there seems to be trouble there too.
I am not against gnome. It is good but kde seems better to me. I crave to find a self-sustaining distribution that whole heartedly support kde. Interestingly (Ironically?!), Mark Shuttleworth and Linux Torwalds seem to use Kde - funny world!
38 • No subject (by AC on 2006-04-11 10:49:57 GMT from , United States)
Enterprise targeted distributions display a preference for GNOME primarily for usability issues. KDE may be superior in terms of configurability and in other respects as well, but GNOME does seem to have a clear advantage when presented to a new and non-technical user. Interestingly, people who are new to Unix but power users on Windows often prefer KDE and many Unix newbies fit this category. But the enterprise user being targeted doesn't necessarily feel at ease with Windows either. And the thing is, it's better to aim at the segment that needs ready usability over the segment that wants configurability: the latter group is quite capable of switching desktop environments to satisfy themselves, but the former group won't be able to manage.
39 • No subject (by AC on 2006-04-11 10:57:10 GMT from , United States)
The other issue is licensing. A commercial developer can link a proprietary application against GNOME libraries because they are LGPL. Qt is dual-licensed, so the developer has a choice between the GPL license requiring their app to be GPL as well or paying for a Trolltech license to develop KDE apps that are proprietary.
40 • UPDATE ... (by A. Gered on 2006-04-11 12:13:11 GMT from Wien, Austria)
... on http://kubuntu.de/
Read for a clarification on the requests.
41 • RE: #40 (by moonshine on 2006-04-11 14:20:06 GMT from Tampere, Finland)
This kubuntu.de problem seems to be a problem in communication. The kubuntu.de people have been trying for months to contact Canonical without success. They have asked several questions about the state and support of the Kubuntu project but Canonical hasn't answered.
It's funny that even the main Kubuntu developer, Jonathan Riddell, has been misinformed about the real nature of the problem. Couldn't the kubuntu.de people have tried to reach Canonical by contacting Riddell? What can possibly be the future of a project where communication fails to work even inside the project, between two of its main contributing developers?
42 • 41 (by AC on 2006-04-11 14:32:46 GMT from , United States)
The worst part: one of the main services Canonical wants to sell is collaborative tools, i.e. Launchpad. But despite the glitzy web interface for developers working together, failures of communication are still occurring.
43 • AC (by Maddog! on 2006-04-11 16:21:31 GMT from Gent, Belgium)
Wow ,a real pseudo -intellectual female , what's next ?
Winblows wiping my butt after a big dong?
Time to search a new place to have some distro info.
O yeah 1 other thing: Ubuntu sucks, with each new release compiling sourcecode becomes more and more a pain in the duduplace (even if dpkg can remember that the alfabet starts with an a and not e)
Another RIDDLE Jonathan!
People who like it, can have it ,for all I care (don't trust bigbucks guys when there handing stuff out for free)
Yooo I'm out of here C u all (or not?)
AC fix dinner!
44 • Re: The other issue is licensing (by Ariszló on 2006-04-11 17:21:13 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
AC wrote: Qt is dual-licensed, so the developer has a choice between the GPL license requiring their app to be GPL as well or paying for a Trolltech license to develop KDE apps that are proprietary.
Which means that Qt's licensing is closer to the spirit of GNU than the official GNU desktop.
45 • 44 (by AC on 2006-04-11 20:41:12 GMT from , United States)
Definitely Stallman is no fan of the LGPL
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html
but I'm not certain that allowing proprietary apps to be built under a separate license is any closer in spirit to Stallman's ideals.
46 • 43 (by AC on 2006-04-11 22:10:06 GMT from , United States)
So, anyone who expresses concerns about how female members of the community are treated must be female? How sad.
I'm having take-out tonight, but thanks for the reminder.
47 • 46 (by Anonymous on 2006-04-11 22:23:11 GMT from Helena, United States)
"having take-out" is somehow gender related?
48 • 47 (by AC on 2006-04-11 23:07:13 GMT from , United States)
LOL. No, the poster also told me to "fix dinner".
49 • Double licensing (by Ariszló on 2006-04-12 00:40:39 GMT from Budapest, Hungary)
AC wrote: but I'm not certain that allowing proprietary apps to be built under a separate license is any closer in spirit to Stallman's ideals.
No, it isn't but I believe that Qt's double licensing is morally superior to LGPL. Using free libraries to make proprietary apps is less fair than paying for the libraries required by them.
50 • Oopps!.. Always read all of the Mail Server's message! (by Kim Connors on 2006-04-12 04:25:41 GMT from Sudbury, Canada)
- Note to Self -
Read all of the error message's content!
I guess it would avoid countless retries if I just read my "failed" mail
content from DW.. like the line below:
<-- 550 Error: This mail server does not accept HTML email. Please resend in -->> plain text format <<---
51 • Kubuntu (by Snowman on 2006-04-12 04:35:02 GMT from Ottawa, Canada)
I've had three computer running Kubuntu. Changed to Kanotix install to HD as the computers ran much faster and I was able to run to multiple Virtual Machine. Kubuntu seem to have problem and would lock up with heavy loads. Kanotix just keep chugging along.
52 • comment about 43 (by Hillman on 2006-04-12 06:37:16 GMT from Singapore, Singapore)
I don't think this site is bias towards Ubuntu. It is just happens that Ubuntu has more news in these days. I think if other distro has news, announcement the web master will surely let us know.
Also, I think your post is just ignorant and *bias* against Ubuntu and women. What's wrong with them? You could don't agree with them but you *cannot* *offend* them because you are *blind* and *disrespect* the others.
53 • Yippee! (by Yasser on 2006-04-12 10:52:48 GMT from Miller Place, United States)
Yippeeeeeeeeeee! I won the competition:)
I wish Ubuntu provided extra CDs, a non-oss add-on CD and a tool like YAST as Suse does.......
Cheers!
God bless
54 • 53 (by AC on 2006-04-12 11:06:26 GMT from , United States)
Congrats!
I hope you enjoy your new book.
55 • 49 dual licensing (by AC on 2006-04-12 11:19:16 GMT from , United States)
I do see your point about fairness. However, I think that to the extent that one is committed to software freedom, whether money changes hands is irrelevant. (Not irrelevant to the parties to the exchange however.) Proprietary software remains a limitation on people's freedom and paying for the priviledge to deprive others of their freedom doesn't make it any more just.
On the other hand, if one sets aside concerns about freedom and focuses on technical issues like encouraging having a common interface across free and non-free apps and encouraging standards about which free software and proprietary developers can agree (one of the rationales for the LGPL) then I suppose either scheme - LGPL or dual-licensing - makes sense.
Still, I can see why businesses, particularly small businesses, would prefer LGPL: needing to pay for the proprietary license for a Qt app before one knows whether a project will be commercially viable is a burden to small developers. Larger projects likely won't care.
There are many sides to this, but I don't really see either licensing situation as morally superior. Perhaps if a developer had to pay ME to accept the restrictions imposed by their license, I could see fairness to it, but the fact that someone pays someone else for the priviledge of restricting the freedom of third parties who aren't involved in the deal seems morally irrelevant.
56 • Problems with Distrowatch RSS? (by Yoda on 2006-04-12 11:40:21 GMT from Houston, United States)
Am I the only one that is having problems with the RSS feeds on Distrowatch? It does not seem that the DWW link shows up until several days later. Anyone else seein this?
57 • Ubuntu Bias (by kilgoretrout on 2006-04-12 19:32:13 GMT from , United States)
I think there is a pretty clear ubuntu bias here. How else do you explain describing the actions of a group of kubuntu developers as "blackmail". Look at the facts of the situation - a group of unpaid, volunteer kubuntu developers have been trying to get some answers from Canonical/Ubuntu on a number of topics, including funding, but the powers that be have refused to answer or respond in any manner to those requests. As a result, those developers stated that they no longer wish to continue working for free on the project until they get some answers. Characterizing those actions as "blackmail" betrays a profound bias in favor of Ubuntu. The headline could just as easily been "Canonical Snubs Kubuntu Volunteers".
I think these people are entitled to some straight answers from Canonical/Ubuntu. Only a profound bias in favor of Ubuntu would blind one to that obvious fact.
58 • ubuntu.de (by warpengi on 2006-04-13 04:29:17 GMT from Calgary, Canada)
The words "blackmailing attempt" in the article are very inflammatory. Unless there is more information than what I read following all the links there is hardly a case for blackmail, and indeed it denigrates the ubuntu.de developers and maintainers. What is the purpose in that?
59 • 57 & 58 (by AC on 2006-04-13 06:48:23 GMT from , United States)
I'm no fan of Ubuntu as people likely know, but I usualy don't jump on the "Distrowatch is an Ubuntu shill" bandwagon either. Still, in this case, looking at the story and considering the comments, I have to agree: "blackmail" does seem like a needlessly invidious characterization of a bargaining position posed by a group of volunteers. I'd appreciate an explanation or an apology or at least some sort of comment on this from Ladislav, because the posters above do seem to have a valid point. ("Profound bias" seems like an overstatement though. More likely in light of other stories is "thoughtless sensationalism".)
60 • RE: 59 - blackmail (by ladislav on 2006-04-13 07:08:07 GMT from Hsingya, Taiwan)
The guys on Kubuntu.de stated that they would close the site and forum and stop working on Kubuntu if they didn't get what they wanted. If that's not blackmail, then what is?
Another reason I was so harsh on them was the fact that nowhere on the site they stated clearly what exactly it was they wanted. It was all wrapped in a cloud of mystery: they wanted something, but they didn't get it, so they decided to go on a strike. I would have been more understanding if they had explained clearly what it was they were after and what other recourses they used before embarking on the protest.
61 • If that's not blackmail, then what is? (by AC on 2006-04-13 07:17:52 GMT from , United States)
A bargaining position? Threatening to go on strike? Or do you consider all trade unions and the like to be "blackmail"?
Actually, you said it best in your second paragraph: "protest".
I do agree with your other point though: miscommunication all around created problems that might otherwise have been avoided with a lot less drama.
62 • RE: blackmail (by ladislav on 2006-04-13 07:42:53 GMT from Hsingya, Taiwan)
I don't know, maybe you are right and the word "blackmail" was a bit harsh.
But the entire drama still seems a bit dodgy to me - it looks like the primary purpose of this protest was to get media attention. Forgive me for being skeptical, but these guys joined Kubuntu because they thought they would enjoy creating an interesting distro. Now that they found out that it was more work than fun, they could have simply left the project. If there is something you don't like about your job, do you stir trouble, complain to the media and threaten to drop everything if your demands are not met? No, you just tell your boss you are leaving and explain the reasons, that's all. At least that's what I'd do in a similar situation.
63 • 62 Ladislav (by AC on 2006-04-13 08:53:13 GMT from , United States)
Thank you for considering the thoughts of myself and some others on the choice of words.
I certainly don't want to defend the overall handling of things on either side. I would like to add this though. generally, Leaving after explaining to your boss your reasons is the reasonable course. But certainly, society would be worse of if everyone followed that course in all circumstances. Stirring up trouble, complaining to the media, and threatening to drop everything have been the celebrated tactics of those who have achieved better working conditions for all. Now, Kubuntu is not a coal mine or a sweat shop, but we should at least acknowledge that such approaches to negotiation are not always illegitimate.
In the case of Free Software developers, "wages" are instead the acknowledgement and appreciation of the community and one's sponsors and "working conditions" are the availability of development and distribution infrastructure. The Kubuntu developers feel their own work has not been rewarded with the same wages and working conditions that those doing the same work for the flagship project, Ubuntu, have received. If that is the case, I think they've the right to have their grievances aired. And while the communication failures on both sides must be acknowledged, I think they would do a greater disservice by simply discontinuing their work without explanation.
Whether they could have gotten their concerns heard in a more constructive, less publicized way is something I doubt either of us know.
64 • Links (by Distrowatch Reader on 2006-04-14 06:27:58 GMT from Saint Joseph, United States)
On the Distrowatch page for FreeBSD.
The Third link under Related Web Sites goes to a Pornographic site not a FreeBSD site
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=freebsd
Related Web Sites FreeBSD Wiki •((HERE FreeBSD Addicts •HERE ))
http://freebsdaddicts.org/
coming soon....
herfirstanal
blacksex
65 • What kubuntu.de wants (by A. Gered on 2006-04-14 07:42:45 GMT from Wien, Austria)
Reading the comments on this issue I've noticed, that an important point seems to have been missed: In the first place the developers don't want compliance with their requests, they want answers.
The problem simply was, that Canonical (according to the version on kubuntu.de) has yet ignored the requests and omitted any statement.
Maybe this is is clearer, when reading the german version. The english translation does leave room for interpretation.
66 • kubuntu.de (by stinkhorn on 2006-04-14 07:59:11 GMT from Koeln, Germany)
Andreas Mueller from kubuntu.de has posted to kubuntu devel mailing lists, inquiring if Kubuntu can be considered as a non-profit distribution, which would help in collecting financial sponsorship for Kubuntu development and advocacy from other companies besides Canonical.
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2006-April/001031.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2006-April/001035.html
67 • Mepis 6.0 (by tom on 2006-04-14 12:22:38 GMT from Helena, United States)
I just installed Mepis 6.0. What a fine distro. I am sure this will replace Ubuntu as the No. 1 distro.
It is an alpha, both with Mepis and Ubuntu so I am sure there are still a few minor flaws.
On the positive side-
1. Hardware support is excellent. Out of the box recognition of my video and sound cards (with Ubuntu I need to modify my X config scripts).
2. JAVA, flash, and guarddog installed and configured.
3. Compatible with Ubuntu and Debian.
4. Very nice menu of system configuration.
My only gripe is I am a GNOME fan, but I downloaded Ubuntu (Gnome desktop) and XFCE (Xubuntu) and both were up and running with no problem.
I will admit the KDE setup with Mepis is very nice.
I would recommended this distro to anyone who wants a version of Linux that "just works" and intends to use a computer for typical tasks- Word processing, spread sheet, Web browsing, multimedia, CD, and flash cards all just work out of the box.
68 • No subject (by AC on 2006-04-14 12:42:54 GMT from , United States)
As pointed out innumerable times here, compatibility with Ubuntu and compatibility with Debian are two different things. A distro can't be both. Mepis was previously (largely) compatible with Debian. Now it isn't.
69 • 68 (by tom on 2006-04-14 12:59:35 GMT from Helena, United States)
I guess it all depends on how one defines compatibility.
Mepis uses deb package management as well as synaptic. You can configure apt-get/aptitude/synaptic to use Debian repositories and you can install most third party deb packages.
To me incompatibility is compairing Windows and Linux/Unix. No overlap whatsoever. No viable way to run most windows compatible software on Linux and no viable way to run most Linux/Unix on windows. (I am aware of "work arounds" live VMware (which is beyond this discussion), Cygwin, etc, but these are a small fraction of the Linux/Unix software).
70 • Microsoft Access/Project (by Robbzilla on 2006-04-14 16:33:37 GMT from Los Angeles, United States)
Anyone know of any Linux/OSX programs that are simalar to Microsoft Access/Project? Besides mySQL?
R
71 • 69 (by Anonymous on 2006-04-14 18:43:26 GMT from , United States)
In that sense, Mepis is also redHat compatible, because alien is included and can convert rpms.
72 • No subject (by AC on 2006-04-14 19:04:09 GMT from , United States)
My approximate definition of "compatibility" when speaking of Debian-derived systems: you can mix repositories and dist-upgrade without having a lot of errors. Another rough definition: libc6 and other base libraries are the same version.
That means of course that Debian releases aren't compatible with each other. And they aren't, which is why pinning is generally recommended only for experienced users. The very fact that you need special mechanisms like that is because the repositories have incompatible versions of packages.
Of course, if you're brave you can run a system like one I use only for toying around. testing is the default release, stable is next highest priority and used when testing versions are broken. (The reverse doesn't work because of libc6 issues. The dependency is usually libc6 >= version number so a single testing package can mess up a whole stable base, but not vice versa.) Then unstable is used when the newest version is desired, but generally lowest priority. Except when testing and unstable have different versions of some base libraries, this works pretty well most of the time. I suppose Ubuntu could be tossed into the mix. But I wouldn't recommend such a thing, especially not to someone who finds installing Java and Flash a big burden.
73 • apologies in advance (by AC on 2006-04-14 19:21:13 GMT from , United States)
for the Java and Flash remark. For me the only reason to include non-free software by default would be for the sake of those who couldn't - or couldn't be bothered - to get them themselves. Especially since I suspect the distributor could get into licensing trouble for doing it. But that doesn't mean that anyone who prefers them to just be there is somehow incompetent.
But remember, if you want "just works", don't mix repos, because then synaptic won't "just work". It will take some massaging and cajoling.
74 • 73 (by tom on 2006-04-14 21:43:38 GMT from Helena, United States)
AC- Thanks for the apology.
Nice to see such a brisk response to my posts. Thank all of you.
I am in fact am competent to install Java and Flash. I understand the licensing issues. I am appreciative that is be done for me as my time is limited and I find installing Java and Flash repetitive and frankly boring.
It would be nice if the "Linux community" would either standardize the file system or include an, as an option, to install Java/Flash. It seems a "no brainer" that one could write a script to accept the license (as an end user) and then install Java/Flash.
It took me the same effort/time to configure a mixed Debi an/Ubuntu system as to install Java/Flash. I did not experience problems with synaptic or error messages as described it the other posts. I admit I have not had the time to attempt to configure Mepis/Debian but if I do I will let you know my experience. for now I am enjoying using a system out of the box without all the post-install download and configuration hassle.
YES I ENJOY LESS HASSLE. I suggest you try it sometime yourself. I has become a pleasure to use my limited computer time to surf the web, E-mail/instant message friends, game, etc. If you try it you may find there is more to life then configuring X, installing Java, installing flash, configuring fstab... What are you waiting for, wake up and enjoy a hassle free distro, learn to have fun, go beyond configuration and instillation of Java, there is more to life.
P.S. My primary use for such a mixed system has NOT been to attempt a "aptitude dist-upgrade" to install tens or hundreds of packages to see if I could break and then fix my system, but rather to expand my repositories and access to software. If I run into a problem -> fall back to source, but dependencies can be problematic... Truth be told it has not been so difficult.
75 • 71 (by tom on 2006-04-14 22:52:05 GMT from Helena, United States)
That's the spirit. Yes, if there is a 3rd party application I need/want to install run it is feasible and to some extent easier in Mepis.
I install Mepis for friends/family. Gets them off other distros (like Windows). If may seem surprising to some (blasphemy perhaps), but ordinary people find Mepis easy to use. For example, have you ever seen how “happy” new Linux users are to install Java? How about Flash? Yet new users (to Linux) most likely come from, lets see, Oh yea, Windows. They often use Java and Flash and visit those web sites. They install Java and Flash easily. Would it not be nice if Java and Flash were just as easy in Linux? (I know Mepis is not the only distro to include Java/Flash).
I have been running Zenwalk as my "primary" distro. Simple interface, fast, has the basics, I do not need all the bloat/bells/whistles.
What to do with Zenwalk if I want to install 3rd party software??? I have seen the claims that this is no problem. I have also heard Gentoo is user friendly. Wake up an smell the roses people. Why is Ubuntu so popular? Why is PCLinux so popular? Why Mepis, Xandros? All comes down to two things:
1. Ease of use.
2. Friendliness of online community.
The Gentoo community is hostile. I have read the “Gentoo Handbook” several times and we all know it is incomplete and in places inaccurate. So much so that I have never been able to successfully install Gentoo. Ask a question of the Gentoo community, I dare you. They are arrogant and hostile, so much so that I have never been able to successfully install Gentoo.... Just look at their idea of a “Live CD”- Nice command line. New Linux users find the bland command line so friendly too. Nice touch, could have not done it better myself. Surprise, this is why Gentoo is not so popular.
I have tried Slackware/Zenwalk and as a base system they are fine. Installing third party software however is not easy, so much so that either I do not have the luxury of time to complete the task or I can not find a dependency and so my failure rate is high. Getting phone calls to explain how to type “startx” or “startkde” from friends and relatives is not so easy. Oh yes, I just love spending an hour configuring Slackware post-install to make the system more user friendly for newbies. This is why Slackware/Zenwalk is not so popular.
Ubuntu, on the other hand, has been very easy to use. Very friendly community. The Unofficial Ubuntu 5.04 Starter Guide is fairly complete, easy to understand, and (as amazing as it may seem) the instructions work.
Mepis has been limited by the pace of Debian (Firefox 1.5.0.1 became available in Debian unstable what 2 days ago???
Open SUSE- Nice system. SUSE has made no attempt to keep OpenSUSE up to date. Debian too far behind, maybe the need a “up-2-date” branch (ie stable, testing, unstable, and up2date or bleeding?).
Madriva, and to some extent Xandros, are commercial fronts of the type I have seen Ubuntu accused of becoming.
PCLinux is very nice. Fedora core 5 is also very nice, but bloated. Both fall just short of distros for the Microsoft Zombies.
The combination of Mepis and Ubuntu is a great leap forward for Linux. It is/will be the first distro I feel is able to grow beyond the world of geeks/hackers into a mature desktop. First time users “newbies” can use Mepis out of the box. In fact first time users can use the live CD without problems with Java/Flash (have you ever seen how happy new users are to install Java and Flash? Makes instant Linux converts, on the spot so to say). Mepis is easy to install. And hey, no post-install configuration breaks my heart. It is exciting to see Linux mature and Mepis 6.0 is well within the reach of “newbies”. We should welcome Mepis for what it is... currently the BEST TOOL to WEAN OUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY ONTO Linux (and away from the dark side).
76 • 74 & 75 (by tom on 2006-04-14 22:57:26 GMT from Helena, United States)
Sorry about the rant. I don't know what came over me. It is as if I were possessed. I feel better now, really I do.
77 • 74-76 one rant for another (by AC on 2006-04-14 23:36:13 GMT from , United States)
Flash is as easy to do on Debian as it can legally be. There's a package that will automatically download the player and install it, just prompting you with the license agreement. The only hiccup is adding non-free sources, but I daresay a lot of Debian users would have fierce objections to enabling non-free by default. People need to have the option of choosing a system that is completely Free.
Will this make Debian less popular? So be it. I don't think popularity is the primary goal of Debian or Gentoo. Or Slackware for that matter, although there is at least a commercial aspect to Slackware.
Java is a bit trickier because Sun uses jsp for their site and you have to agree to their license before you can download. Scripting won't work. But Debian has an easy package for creating a Debian package out of Sun's binary.
Last time I installed Windows though (admittedly it was Windows 2000 Professional before I completely ditched Windows), Java and Flash weren't there. Nor could I open word documents. Nor powerpoint. Nor could I view pdfs. Nor could I zip and unzip files. (I think that changed with XP. Someone correct me here.) Nor could I burn CDs. And I didn't have a firewall or anti-virus. Having any of those by default wouldn't be because they came with Windows but because the OEM provided them.
I also don't see the big deal here. How often do you have to install the OS? I have one sarge system that was previously woody and before that potato! And two others started with woody. This isn't Windows where periodically reinstalling is necessary because the registry gets corrupted and you don't know what all nasties may be lurking in the system.
I have my suspicions about Ubuntu but what's wrong with Mepis is beyond suspicions. Woodford builds on GNU/Linux but makes his own contributions proprietary. And badmouths RMS, without whom there'd be no GNU/Linux. And he's breaking the law by shipping some of the non-free software. That's why Ubuntu won't touch it, because they're a big target.
It always amazes me that the people who whine about user friendliness are the same people who try 4 or 5 distros a month and bemoan how outdated Debian stable is. If you want to experiment, then do so, but don't then complain about the hassles. The people I've installed Debian for find it works for them day in day out with hardly a problem. Yes, they needed someone to install it. They'd need someone to install Windows. I've even suggested Ubuntu to them (I'd never stick them with testing or unstable) telling them some of the software is more current. Guess what? They're happy with what they're using. Maybe if they had unsupported hardware, but if that were the case, I could as easily put in a custom kernel. (Again this is something an OEM would also do. Ever try building a new machine and installing a retail Windows disk? You'll generally find you need drivers from disks that came with the hardware. That's the reality of new hardware with anything but the very latest OS.)
I don't get the distro of the week thing anyway. If you want to try something new, try making tcsh, ksh, or zsh your default shell. Or using a BSD style init. Or switching from vi to emacs or vice versa. Or learning Perl. Or just trying a new window manager. I'd bet you can do all those things with whatever distro you're using now.
Tinkering is fun. That's why I sometimes use Gentoo and mess with LFS. (DiY linux http://www.diy-linux.org/ next)But this isn't about tinkering. I'm not sure what it's about. Installing this distro is hard so... I'll install another one and another one and another one? I don't get it.
78 • Zenwalk 2.4 (by GR Gaudreau on 2006-04-15 00:55:22 GMT from Hull, Canada)
This is a very nice distro. It's small & fast, but that doesn't mean it doesn't pack a punch. You get a lot of bang for the buck with Zenwalk. It's a slack based distro, that's easy to install and configure. A lot of work has been done to ensure a pleasant experience. The main wm/dm is XFce4, which is very customizable, looks good, works well and is fast. All-in-all, Zenwalk 2.4 is one of the better distros I've tried, and I've tried many.
79 • 77 (by tom on 2006-04-15 03:08:07 GMT from Chandler, United States)
AC: Once again thank you. You seem to come from a perspective as a administrator. You have vastly more experience then me in this area and I admire you for you knowledge. I am a computer user. I use my computer to accomplish other tasks. This typically involves a different skill set than yours. I need a desktop that "just works" because I rely on the computer. My tasks are mundane and include (general categories) web surfing, word processing, spreadsheets, and communication (E-Mail, VOIP, instant messaging). I hack my way through system administration only when I need to. I spend very little time using a computer to, as you say, tinker. I have a healthy and brisk life outside of computing. I try various distro's :
1. Some for fun/learning/curiosity. Why is that bad?
2. Searching for a distro that eases the administrative load so I can accomplish my other tasks. Why is that bad?
Thus I speak not as an administrator, just a user and promoter of Linux. I use Linux and am learning. I am no fan of Windows myself and have a strong bias myself. The fact is, however, there are a variety of work environments in which I, like many others, have to use Windows. There is a large quantity of professional software for which there is simply no alternate in Linux. For myself this is voice recognition software. No option in Linux, stuck with Windows. Must dual boot. Many offices where the majority of us work run Windows. No control over network, must use windows.
I agree with all the points you raise about Windows. Still you should not criticize what, by your own admission, you do not know. You should not criticize how others, such as myself, learn to use Linux. To be fair, how many versions of Linux, out of the box, no installation have all the features you list? You, of all people, with all your knowledge should know there are Linux viruses. Linux firewalls need to be installed and configured. I do not use Microsfot products to "open word documents. Nor powerpoint." on my windows box, I use opensource software (same software on both on Windows and Linux primarily for convenience). Windows XP has a firewall. Not as powerful as Linux, but also not as difficult to understand and configure.
Your criticism of others installing multiple OS is a bit unrealistic. First it sounds as if you yourself have installed multiple OS. Second no matter how well I learn Debian this will not help me to learn FreeBSD. I can only learn FreeBSD if I install and use Free BSD. The fact that I install, try, and learn multiple OS allows me to learn. You should teach, not criticize, people who are learning Linux.
It does not belittle Debian to offer choice. I think you need to reconsider your position regarding how outdated Debian stable is.
If I discover an easier to use version of Linux I feel like a kid in a candy store. My life is now better off. If I give feedback regarding my experience and com pair to Debian stable I am not whining.
As far as learning
"try making tcsh, ksh, or zsh your default shell. Or using a BSD style init. Or switching from vi to emacs or vice versa. Or learning Perl. Or just trying a new window manager. I'd bet you can do all those things with whatever distro you're using now. "
What makes you think I have not done those things? I would love to install and tinker with Gentoo, but I do not know how and the Gentoo manual does not explain in sufficient detail how to install Stage 3. I have never been able to boot the kernel I have configured and the manual is insufficient. No Gentoo user has ever offered to help. That has been my experience. This makes me less knowledgeable then you regarding the Linux kernel but not an inferior person. This makes Gentoo less useful as a distro that just works.
My point, and there is one, is to promote Linux and encourage others. Once one has knowledge it is easy to forget what it is like to be learning. I am learning and I like to teach others. It is much easier for me to teach Linux on a system that works.
For me it is not a hassle to experiment with various distros. In my experience, compaired to other distros, Debian stable is outdated. Do not confuse the inertia of your users to stay with Debian stable as proff that Debian stable is up to date or in any way superior to any other distro. Very few distros I have installed are unstable, and the worst offenders are typically the ones that are source based.
What distro would you advise to a newbie who has a modern, fast machine, wants to be current, wants a stable distro, and wants to spend minimal time "tinkering"?
80 • 79 (by AC on 2006-04-15 05:00:04 GMT from , United States)
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.
I do come from a partially administrative background, being a semi-professional network administrator, i.e. doing consulting for local private non-profits, churches, et al, that can't afford full-time IT staff. But I also do development and multimedia work and enjoy browsing the web and staying in touch with friends and family online as much as the next.
Answering your questions in order as best I can.
Nothing wrong with fun. If you enjoy installing new distros, it can be great fun. But I am confused when you then speak of the tedium of getting the system just as you want. My thinking: if you want to use the system for other things, stick with one distro and get it to a place where it does what you need. If you want to experiment with different distributions, accept that each involves its own challenges and issues setting up for various tasks is part of that. Bemoaning the difficulties but continuing to hope from one distro to the next doesn't make much sense. Can you see the cause of my confusion here?
Wanting to find a distro that eases the administrative load makes good sense as well. But then I can't help thinking that very quickly more effort has gone into the search than would have gone into making one of the first few distros you tried do what you want. It seems very inefficient to me.
I also understand the frustration of being trapped in a Windows world workwise. I've been there and sympathize.
Concerning features that are there out of the box, most major distributions, though not all, include OpenOffice.org, include some utility for handling compressed archives, include some pdf viewer, include some CD burning facility. Generally there are just a few things that typical user will need to add, namely Java, Flash, media codecs, and DVD support.
(This is assuming they eschew "The Debian Way", which is to install the barest minimum then add whatever else is needed.)
It is easy to write a virus that can affect GNU/Linux. Much harder for it to propogate. Viruses in the wild that affect Linux are virtually nil. Bliss? Puh-leeze.
I certainly have installed a variety of GNU/Linux distributions as well as other Unix flavors. I'm not criticizing that. I am expressing confusion at making a habit of that while bemoaning how difficult some may be (and praising a distro that sidesteps some of the difficulties by violating the law).
I can also promise you something as someone experienced with a variety of Unix systems: learning Debian (or learning any GNU/Linux at the level of configuration files and commandline tools) will most certanly help you learn FreeBSD (or any other Unix system). In fact, if you learn tcsh and experiment with a BSD style init (both readily available in Debian), the main remaining stumbling blocks are in /dev and the different nomenclature for disk partitioning. The vast majority of the tools are the same. I agree of course that one only knows FreeBSD by using it, but to say that Debian won't help is a gross overstatement.
I of course agree with the value of learning. But again, I am confused. One minute you seem eager to learn, the next you seem to want it all done for you. Please tell me, even if I've misunderstood you, that you can see why I might be confused here.
I don't know if you've done any or all of the things I mentioned and I don't assume. I was just expressing my sense that people who try many distros because they are eager to learn might find they could actually learn more focusing on one or two. And I make no judgements concerning superiority. Computers are a very tiny part of life and people who may lack some knowledge in one area may be vastly more wise and insightful that I in innumerable others. And no doubt a great many people know much more even about computers than I.
I'm surprised and disappointed to hear your experiences with Gentoo's forums and documentation. In my last experience, those were among the high points. But it has been more than a year. In any case, whoever said that Gentoo is "user friendly" misled you. I have never heard that claim and would laugh at anyone who made it. But I'd add that that's not the point of Gentoo. Nor is every distro competing to be popular. Your earlier sarcasm about the commandline and being able to do it better yourself, etc. was needlessly hostile. Your suggestion that Debian needs an "up2date" repository revealed serious ignorance. Ever heard of the experimental branch? Or Backports, which already has Firefox 1.5.0.1 built for stable? This is another pitfall of jumping from one distro to another. There are often solutions to your problems readily available and you miss out because each distro has its own way of doing things and you're too busy moving one to the next to learn.
Debian "outdated"? Well, it certainly isn't bleeding edge, though experimental can get you there. But that's not the point of Debian. Not even of unstable. The "inertia" of my users doesn't prove that Debian is the most current distro around but that wasn't my point. My point was that as far as popularity is concerned - something that seems to concern you - having the latest and greatest isn't always desirable. Most Windows users only get a new version when they get a new computer and aren't clamoring to get the very latest. It's just not a priority for most people, people you claimed to speak for.
(They do want things to work though. Especially hardware they paid good money to own. So in that sense currency is a positive. But not currency for its own sake.)
I do think that Debian is a superior to other distros, but that has nothing to do with the "inertia" of non-technical users I assist. It is superior because it is the largest collection of software anyplace, supporting the most hardware architectures, and upholding both standards of Unix design philosophy and principles of Free Software philosophy through its policies and its development process.
As for recommendations, I'm sure you'll find plenty here. As I see it, while stability, currency, and ease of configuration and use are matters of degree (and stability has multiple senses while ease of use really depends on how you're using it and on what hardware - I wouldn't call Ubuntu "easy to install" on my UltraSPARC boxen.) At their extremes, those are simply incompatible demands. There's always a trade-off. What needs to be asked is whether a distro is stable enough, current enough, easy enough. For what. And to whom. Only you can answer that. And yes, that may call for trying out a variety of distros. But while you're doing that, take your time and learn the ways of solving problems with each distro.
81 • 80 (by tom on 2006-04-15 12:08:10 GMT from Chandler, United States)
Thank you AC.
Thank you for your time.
I was trying to be provocative, not hostile and I appreciate your guidence, patience, and understanding.
As you say, I am learning and not all you have said has been obvious as a new user to Linux, although I am now more sophisticated than you assume.
82 • #79 (by Anonymous on 2006-04-15 14:14:00 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"I need a desktop that "just works" because I rely on the computer. My tasks are mundane and include (general categories) web surfing, word processing, spreadsheets, and communication (E-Mail, VOIP, instant messaging). "
No problems here: konqueror, mozilla, firefox, OOo, abiword, kword, gnumeric, kspread, kmail, evolution, thunderbird, skype, licq, amsn...
"For myself this is voice recognition software. No option in Linux,"
I'm not sure about this.
" You, of all people, with all your knowledge should know there are Linux viruses. "
Only experimental. Proof of concept. In real world no one afects real boxes...
"Linux firewalls need to be installed and configured. "
So windows to.
Native xp firewall can be disabled by outside. You need install a real firewall in XP like ZoneAlarm.
And, i believe, no one distro comes without iptables by default.
"Windows XP has a firewall."
Yeah, it has!
It's a little peace o shit, but it is there!
" Not as powerful as Linux, but also not as difficult to understand and configure."
Iptables is there too. And if You use an front-end like firestarter it is easy too!
"If I discover an easier to use version of Linux I feel like a kid in a candy store."
How about Fedora, Mandriva, PCLinuxOS, Knoppix, Kanotix, Kurumin, Kalango, Ubuntu, etc...????
"No Gentoo user has ever offered to help. That has been my experience. This makes me less knowledgeable then you regarding the Linux kernel but not an inferior person. This makes Gentoo less useful as a distro that just works."
Gentoo is not an end-user distro.
Gentoo is for geeks.
"What distro would you advise to a newbie who has a modern, fast machine, wants to be current, wants a stable distro, and wants to spend minimal time "tinkering"?"
Fedora, Mandriva, PCLinuxOS, Knoppix, Kanotix, Kurumin, Kalango, Ubuntu...
83 • 82 (by tom on 2006-04-15 15:59:07 GMT from Helena, United States)
Thank you also.
Tasks- You are listing programs, not distributions. This conversation has been regarding the ease of installation/configuration of various distributions not individual programs. (My personal [minimal] list is Firefox, Thunderbird, GAIM, and OOo (Abiword on Windows lags and does not do spreadsheets).
Voice recognition (Stuck on Windows)- As I said, Windows remains necessary due to lack of availability of specialized, often professional or quasi professional (non-IT) software. This affects a large number of computer users and hopefully slowly improving but in the interim dual booting or multiple computers is the only option.
Linux viruses have been reported. Your attitude seems to be to ignore it. From the Windows experience all forms of “poisons” have been developed (viruses, spyware, adware). Over time they have become increasingly sophisticated and the Linux community should come out of denial and become more proactive. I had no idea how much there was (on Windows) until I looked. I do not know how to look in Linux and the most common response from the Linux community is denial. Perhaps I am too paranoid. “Trust but confirm”.
Firewall- I was responding to a previous post that claimed windows had no firewall, not in any way making a statement regarding quality (or lack thereof). As I have said I am no fan of Windows, but Windows is a "necessary evil". iptables can be used with a UGI/front end, and I am familiar with the task at hand. My point is iptables is difficult/time consuming to learn/understand and a GUI with "point and click" does not equate understanding.
If you follow previous posts I started with a discussion of Mepis 6 Alpha.
My point exactly regarding Gentoo. I was making general comments regarding exactly that fact (and threw out emelishment for *hits and giggles, venting frustration). I have read previous comments (on Distrowatch) implying Gentoo is user freindly and easy to use. If you speak their language possibly, but the distro (and support staff) are hostile to newbies.
84 • No subject (by rape movies on 2006-04-15 19:27:15 GMT from Herstal, Belgium)
Your site is da best, give me more info about the theme.
85 • Gentoo (by AC on 2006-04-15 20:31:12 GMT from , United States)
Gentoo is user friendly... compared to trying to build OpenSolaris from source. (I confess I gave up on that project. It's no wonder there aren't more OpenSolaris based distributions out there.)
Seriously, if anyone tells you that Gentoo is user friendly and just works, you have my permission to laugh in their face. And the permission of most people here I'd imagine. (Not that you need permission. It's an expression.)
86 • GNU/Linux viruses (by AC on 2006-04-15 20:43:30 GMT from , United States)
Considering the server market share and the widespread use of GNU/Linux in high profile contexts like Google, Amazon, and Wal-Mart, it's not for lack of popularity that it doesn't happen. (Though anti-virus vendors will claim just that. They need to sell products.)
To look up viruses on Linux, here's a useful site. (Google is your friend)
http://www.viruslibrary.com/virusinfo/Linux.htm
but not that most of these are actually worms, not viruses.
Some good articles on the subject
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/10/06/linux_vs_windows_viruses/
http://librenix.com/?inode=21
and some humor that is still informative
http://os.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/01/25/1430222&from=rss
A more cautious view
http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/165/
http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3307459975.html
I don't endorse everything in these, but I think I've provided a fairly broad view of the situation for you to decide for yourself without having to just listen to flat denials.
87 • #83 (by Anonymous on 2006-04-15 21:43:21 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"Tasks- You are listing programs, not distributions. This conversation has been regarding the ease of installation/configuration of various distributions not individual programs. (My personal [minimal] list is Firefox, Thunderbird, GAIM, and OOo (Abiword on Windows lags and does not do spreadsheets)."
I don't know but I supose that these programs are instaled in all major distros by default. And if not -> apg-get install it!
Abiword is "word" and Gnumeric is spreadsheet
"Voice recognition (Stuck on Windows)- As I said, Windows remains necessary due to lack of availability of specialized, often professional or quasi professional (non-IT) software. This affects a large number of computer users and hopefully slowly improving but in the interim dual booting or multiple computers is the only option."
Is it possible to run voice recog. 4 win over wine?
(Just asking)
"Linux viruses have been reported. Your attitude seems to be to ignore it."
#86 posted a great reply.
" From the Windows experience all forms of “poisons” have been developed (viruses, spyware, adware)."
Windows is shity by default... Writing malware 4 win is easy...
(IE, activeX, wsh, registry, filesystem permissions, etc...)
Unix/Linux is diferent. Unix/Linux is secure by default.
Distros too much userfriendly perhaps are more prone to be atacked
" Over time they have become increasingly sophisticated and the Linux community should come out of denial and become more proactive. I had no idea how much there was (on Windows) until I looked. I do not know how to look in Linux and the most common response from the Linux community is denial. Perhaps I am too paranoid. “Trust but confirm”."
Security is not a product, security is a process.
Joining security list perhaps is a good idea!
:-)
http://www.securityfocus.com/newsletters
"My point is iptables is difficult/time consuming to learn/understand"
And native XP firewall is easy AND IS USELESS!
:-)
88 • Mepis flaws (by Kim Connors on 2006-04-16 03:47:06 GMT from Sudbury, Canada)
My shift to Ubuntu was out of necessity from Mepis 3.4.3.. Mepis has many strong points, including a slick install and the live/install cd -- but. the lack of quicker fixes in key areas like printing, LCD display, and other font issues ,
left me frustrated. Ubuntu's strong sense of community and predictable timeline
made it my obvious choice. I still recommned MEPIS to XP endusers and sincerely hope the move to Ubuntu repositories will mature this KDE-centric distro.
I generally sensationalize something that works with a lot of hardware... with little effort. Ubuntu fits my bill with Gnome and a few KDE apps.
89 • , Malaysia)
google pr main
90 • Thank you (86, 87) (by tom on 2006-04-16 18:39:30 GMT from Helena, United States)
FYI: I advocate Linux to (non-IT) computer users (50% or so are professionals) and work with and teach "newbies", most of whom are migrating from Windows. Learning a foreign OS is not intuitive and can be frustrating and/or threatening (to say the least) and finding a version of Linux to ease the transition (for newbies) and administration (for myself) is my current interest. Mos “newbies” to Linux want to surf the web and use Java and Flash, word processing, spread sheets, E-mail. Linux will, of course, deliver. Most, if not all distros will deliver. The question is ease of transition and administration.
I personally run Zenwalk as I find it light and, as a base, meets my basic needs. I dabble in other distros mainly for fun and learning. I maintain primarily Mepis or Ubuntu for others as they enter Linux (newbies) depending on their needs. Once they are “proficient” they have a FAT partition they can use as shared (with Windows and Linux for data transfer) or install the version of Linux of their choice (which I will not maintain).
It is nice to find a distro like Mepis 6 Alpha. Not much needs to be done post-install (for newbies). You should check it out, it even comes with a GUI for ClamAV. Other distros seem to work, but need more tweaking or at times seem bloated running services that newbies do not need. Once Ubuntu releases Drake and Mepis polishes version 6 this will be quite a nice distro and it is nice I can just partition an existing drive or install a new drive and give a “live CD”. If I need to do the install not much needs to be done after, and yes I am lazy when it comes to administrating such a system.
I teach an adult education class on Linux to newbies so they can learn more after the install. “teach a man (or woman) to fish” so to speak.
As such I appreciate all your help.
Criticizing Windows does not promote Linux. It does not teach newbies. You should take care not to intimidate newbies and encourage them as they grow into Linux, especially on this site.
There are IT professionals who prefer Windows (to Linux/Unix) and Windows can be “hardened”. This requires additional programs for virus scans, firewalls, etc. Linux is similar in that there have been entire books devoted to hardening Linux as well. Linux itself is a small core (DSL is < 50 Mb) and also uses a variety of programs to manage security. Lindows is Linux and is horrible with security issues (encouraging users to run as root). The differences are in open source and, of course, cost. I can pay a professional to harden and maintain Windows 2003 server/Windows XP professional and have a reasonably secure system (the only secure system is once locked away and turned off). It will cost and I will not understand the inner workings, but it can be done. Security is a process....
I prefer to learn and administrate Linux on my own and I presume most who read/post on this site share my opinion. Lets set the criticism of various OS (Windows or otherwise) aside and focus of promotion and teaching of what we all love, Linux.
I have been trying to get voice recognition working with both Wine and Crossover office, but have not been successful (thank you for thinking of my conundrum). I use Dragon Naturally Speaking. Any suggestions?
AC- Thank you again for your time.
Thank you both (#87 and AC) for the links on Linux viruses. I read all your links and found them quite informative (and humorous). I subscribed to Security Focus (both Windows and Linux of course).
Thank you for the tip on Gnumeric, I will check it out.
91 • #90 (by Anonymous on 2006-04-16 19:32:31 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
"There are IT professionals who prefer Windows (to Linux/Unix) and Windows can be “hardened”. This requires additional programs for virus scans, firewalls, etc. "
The problem is tha it is not easy to run in LUA mode (Lesser privileged User Account) in XP.
http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2006/03/running-as-limited-user-easy-way.html
92 • Dragon Naturally Speaking 4 working under Wine. (by Anonymous on 2006-04-16 19:37:45 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://www.winehq.com/hypermail/wine-devel/2005/03/0083.html
93 • 91 (by tom on 2006-04-16 19:40:55 GMT from Helena, United States)
Try working as a LUA on a large network.
94 • Speech recognition (by Anonymous on 2006-04-16 19:44:09 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://www.linuxrsp.ru/win-lin-soft/table-eng.html
Yes, there are no usable speech recognition packages. But:
1) Sphinx.
2) ViaVoice. (almost dead...)
http://cmusphinx.sourceforge.net/html/cmusphinx.php
The Sphinx Group at Carnegie Mellon University is committed to releasing the long-time, DARPA-funded Sphinx projects widely, in order to stimulate the creation of speech-using tools and applications, and to advance the state of the art both directly in speech recognition, as well as in related areas including dialog systems and speech synthesis.
95 • 92 (by tom on 2006-04-16 19:49:00 GMT from Helena, United States)
Thanks, looks like time for me to try again (last tried 6 months ago).
FYI: I use DNS version 8 , I think I may have 7 still, 4 ??? possibly.
96 • DNS and Wine (by Anonymous on 2006-04-16 19:55:15 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://www.google.com/search?...Pesquisar&lr=
97 • dragon 8 (by Anonymous on 2006-04-16 19:57:10 GMT from Braslia, Brazil)
http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=2077
Latest version of this application. Doesn't work well under wine yet.
98 • 97 (by tom on 2006-04-16 20:03:03 GMT from Helena, United States)
Thank you. I will find version 7 and re-try.
99 • SHPINX (by tom on 2006-04-16 20:18:14 GMT from Helena, United States)
SHPINX looks interesting. I need to look at the Language model. I would be a daunting task to upload a professional vocabulary.
100 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-04-16 23:19:27 GMT from , United States)
http://www.gear21.com/speech/html/
http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Speech-Recognition-HOWTO.html
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LinuxDefender Live! CD
LinuxDefender Live! CD was a BitDefender re-mastered Knoppix distribution. It was designed to provide users of both Windows and Linux computers with virus incident rescue tools. Whether your Linux mailserver just got rootkited or your Windows gamestation just got Slammer'd, it's LinuxDefender to the rescue! Just put the bootable CD in your drive to start a turn-key Linux OS which comes packed with almost 1.5 gigabytes of utilities. This distribution contains two world premieres: the world's first ever SAMBA 3 compatible commercial antivirus and FULL NTFS write support - available using the captive NTFS write project.
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