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1 • Disclaimer (by Karol McD on 2005-05-30 12:47:15 GMT from Ireland)
Hehe, like the disclaimer.
2 • 1 more package to track (by Dexter Ang at 2005-05-30 13:04:10 GMT from Philippines)
I only have 1 package to vote for tracking... Inkscape.
Keep up the good work Ladislav!
3 • Package List Suggestions (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 13:26:01 GMT from Germany)
Full agree with Amarok. Also missing and getting my vote are Kontact (!!!), Kopete and Konqueror (if kdebase will be removed, how else will you be able to tell if a distribution just ships KDE libs or the basic KDE desktop?). Also groupware servers like Kolab are missing at all but will be becoming more important soon. And possibly Konversation and Gwenview as contrast to X-Chat and GQView.
4 • Package suggestions (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 13:47:13 GMT from United States)
Definitely Ruby and Gambas and perhaps Kontact and RealVNC. Thanks Ladislav!
5 • No subject (by AQ on 2005-05-30 13:47:54 GMT from United States)
More like the free software competitive capitalist warrior... He looks like he crawled out of the movie "Braveheart".
"Freedom!!!!!"
6 • package list suggestions (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 13:55:20 GMT from Brazil)
I agree with the poster a few posts up. Kolab needs to be included, as does Kontact.
As for the other KDE packages, it only makes sense if the distribution breaks up the packages, or gives different names. KDE 3.4 came with Kopete 0.10, but several distributions named it " 3.4.0". Distrowatch has to be careful with those. Other distributions may not even have a package called "kopete" -- it will be "kdenetwork" or "kdenetwork-imclient" or whatever.
I would instead vote for Konversation, since it won't be affected by those issues.
7 • Re: package list suggestions (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 13:58:56 GMT from Germany)
> Kolab needs to be included, as does Kontact. As for the other KDE packages
Kontact is also released in a kdepim source tarball with KDE version number. I think we should only ponder about what applications should be included and leave it to Ladislav how to implement or whether it's not possible.
8 • RE: Package suggestions (by ladislav on 2005-05-30 14:00:03 GMT from Taiwan)
Please guys, before you make any suggestion to include a package, make sure that the package is not already tracked. Ruby and VNC are already tracked:
http://distrowatch.com/packages.php
As for kdebase vs kdelibs, it might be a good idea to keep kdebase, after all.
9 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 14:11:22 GMT from Romania)
amarok, kopete, kontact
10 • Libranet 3.0 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-05-30 14:31:26 GMT from Italy)
When I started using linux, after a very short honeymoon with Mandrake, I soon moved to SUSE and Libranet.
Well, as to SUSE, 9.3 has quite a few issues which have been for me the final straw.
I had really big expectations from LN 3.0, but since its release I have read both about happy users and very disappointed ones.
Add on top of it that a LN 3.0 dist-upgrade to Sarge/Sid would allegedly break the system: this has been confirmed by some of the most experienced users and beta testers. So now I don't really know what to do.
Add to the above that I am an extremely happy Kanotix user and that installing Sarge is a no-brainer for me, and you can see why I am so confused (about buying LN 3.0 or not).
11 • wxGTK (by Alan Baghumian on 2005-05-30 14:58:02 GMT from Iran, Islamic Republic of)
a lot of applications use wxGTK. I suggest to add it to package list too.
12 • Frugalware (by Smartjak on 2005-05-30 15:29:49 GMT from United States)
Two Distrowatch Weeklys ago Frugleware was the distro of the week. It was because of this site and it's recommemdations that I decided to try it. Sorry for the late post on a distro mentioned two editions ago but I've been playing with it and puting it through it's paces. And all I can say is WOW! Distrowatch was correct in putting the spotlight on on this distro.
13 • RE: Package suggestions (by Alex on 2005-05-30 15:37:52 GMT from Australia)
Subversion. It's an important tool for version control and continually reaching maturity.
We have it here at uni and it would be good for cs grads to notice subversion over cvs
14 • RE: Frugalware (by distro_hopper on 2005-05-30 16:10:23 GMT from Germany)
I'm also testing if Frugalware could become my main desktop distro. So far my experiences have been positive. Frugalware feels very much like Slackware ("Keep It Simple"), with a nod towards desktop usability: Frugalware uses the pacman package manager from Arch Linux with a GUI frontend and they also have their own GUI runlevel editor where you can easily enable/disable services. Packages are kept very up-to-date. There hasn't been yet any big rush at the Frugalware Forums but the (apparently young) developers themselves seem to have the time and energy to provide friendly and well-informed answers to users' questions. I think I'll keep Frugalware for a while to see how it develops towards the next release (0.3).
15 • Great Stallman report (by DaveW on 2005-05-30 16:14:32 GMT from United States)
Your Stallman writeup is one of the best short summaries I've seen on what the free software movement is all about. I'll be recommending it to folks who should know about this vital social/economic/political arena, but think it's just about "Hi-tech" or "geek stuff". Thanks for another don't-miss performance.
16 • Packages. (by Kim Krecht on 2005-05-30 16:45:59 GMT from Germany)
Please include the following: MLdonkey, linphone, socat, UAE, vlc, zoom (the Inform/Z-Code interpreter), DOSbox, DOSemu, ZSNES, mICQ, and Mulberry. Not knowing whether this is the case already, all packages that may be "Default Desktop"s should be tracked as well. Also, Beep Media Player should make a fine addition to the list and a great XMMS replacement.
I find the KDE-centricness of the above comments slightly disturbing. The world doesn't revolve around KDE, and the package list should reflect that.
17 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 17:11:37 GMT from Italy)
i really don't like "sponsored reviews"
18 • packages to add (by fdavid on 2005-05-30 17:22:57 GMT from Austria)
krusader - twin panel file manager
yzis - a vim engine
dmd - D language compiler
esvn - frontend for subversion
skype - VoIP application
umbrello - UML designer
kdiff3 - an advanced diff tool
gdb - debugger
mod_php - php module for apache
acroread - adobe acrobat reader
chkrootkit - rootkit checker
19 • I disagree with RMS (by Benjamin Vander Jagt on 2005-05-30 17:25:20 GMT from United States)
Incidentally, though I agree with him on the vast majority of his dogma, something which is not very common as it relates to me, I actually don't like the GPL and instead favor the MIT license. Certainly, the freedom to do what we wish with data running on our own property is God-given, and requiring that all software derived from said software must also be free does not take away any rights that the person should have anyway. However, I disagree with the requirement to make the source code available. I believe that the source code, if released, must never be "protected" by unethical copyright or patent abuse, but I don't think that the software author must be required to release the source code. (Of course, I always give out my source code, since it really doesn't do me any harm to do so, and since it helps to prove that none of my software is "stolen".)
I'm not sure what you plan to do with XMMS. They've renamed it XMMS1, which they plan XMMS2 to supplant, but it seems like that means that it will be two projects. (That would be nice, after all, since XMMS really hasn't improved much for a long time.)
The Mozilla Foundation has announced they're ending the Mozilla suite (much to my disappointment, as I don't like Firefox).
I think Dovecot would be a good addition, and don't forget reiser4tools.
---
And forget the emacs versus vi battle. I'm lazy. I use Midnight Commander. ;-p
20 • Distros (by M1k@ H@cK at 2005-05-30 17:25:32 GMT from Italy)
Hve You ever tried BLAG???
Please ..do!
;-)
21 • Packages (by William on 2005-05-30 17:40:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'd vote for: DOSbox, vlc, Inkscape, and Helix
22 • Re: Packages. (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 18:13:04 GMT from Germany)
> I find the KDE-centricness of the above comments slightly disturbing. The world doesn't revolve around KDE, and the package list should reflect that.
The world also doesn't evolve around GNOME. The reason why you see such an amount of KDE suggestions is simply because KDE is underrepresented in the current list:
Why Evolution/Thunderbird but not Kontact?
Why Nautilus/Firefox/Opera/Mozilla but not Konqueror?
Why XMMS but not Amarok?
Why Gaim but not Kopete?
Why XChat but not Konversation?
Why GQView but not Gwenview?
23 • RE: Distros (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-05-30 18:14:56 GMT from Italy)
>> Hve You ever tried BLAG???
Please ..do!
;-) <<
Very nice indeed, but it makes more sense for people who like Gnome and Fedora.
24 • No subject (by Charles on 2005-05-30 18:19:12 GMT from United States)
My vote goes to gnomebaker, rkhunter, and portsentry.
25 • inkscape (by Tal on 2005-05-30 18:33:21 GMT from United States)
please track inkscape and maybe kompose
glad your adding curl I use curl all the time. No 2GB file limit like wget also can resume ftp downloads with username and password unlike wget which only can resume http downloads with username and password.
26 • No subject (by Theweakend on 2005-05-30 19:32:33 GMT from United States)
amarok, Inkscape and some thing cool like apollon (its never updated though)
27 • Saint IGNUcius (by Andrea on 2005-05-30 19:59:38 GMT from Italy)
Please correct the initial quote. RMS poses as Saint IGNUcius. See
http://stallman.org/#humor
28 • Stallman's philosophy (by pp on 2005-05-30 20:08:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
Free software is a great thing, but to insist that all software should be Free is silly I think. Maybe RMS has some arguments on this, but they didn't show up in this interview.
Surely, Free software spreads quickly and creates network externalities, but the reduced possibility to make money from it surely also reduces innovative effort.
But this is what makes the future so interesting! It will be interesting to see how strong free software is in the long run. Safe bet seems to be that niche markets will remain strongholds of propietary software, but in basic server and desktop use, FOSS will make a big impact. Microsoft beware..
29 • Package suggestions (by Joel on 2005-05-30 20:23:42 GMT from United States)
Here are some package suggestions. It's a long list, and I don't expect most of them to make it, but I thought I should add my vote for each.
Inkscape
Jabberd14 and jabberd2
asterisk
apcupsd
nut
bugzilla
icecast
gallery
lame
libogg
lirc
mailman
mrtg
nagios
phpbb
30 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 20:34:55 GMT from United States)
For slow computers I' recommend and use
h3knix (usually under xfce) since its more a desktop wm than flux or icwm sometimes.
kanotix-lite (under xfce) too
Phaeronix under gnome 2.10.1 i use
Frugalware doesnt work nice with slow pc anymore but its worth a try on a slow pc
Ubuntu just doesnt install always a problem so screw it
BLAG is nice on slow pc
Any of these distros work even better on a fast pc
My old pc is Celeron 633mhz 256mb 20gb and my main pc is P4 3.0ghz 1gb ddr400 160gb
31 • Re: [sponsored reviews] (by Ariszló on 2005-05-30 20:59:25 GMT from Hungary)
Anonymous wrote: i really don't like "sponsored reviews"
No matter how much money a distribution spends on sponsoring DistroWatch, Ladislav won't write a single nice word about it unless he likes it. So I don't think you need to worry about the truthfulness of sponsored reviews. Read Ladislav's comments about Yoper, an earlier sponsor, in the following issues of Distrowatch Weekly to see what I mean:
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20030609
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20030811
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20030825
32 • Suggested Packages (by Anonymous on 2005-05-30 23:47:50 GMT from Canada)
I think that XPde should be included, for the sake of all the newbies out there (plus it's useful when you're trying to find a distribution for Aunt Tilly). I also think that Captive NTFS should be included. Even though it's static, it's a LiveCD must for new computers.
33 • RE: Suggested Packages (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-05-31 00:17:56 GMT from Italy)
"I think that XPde should be included, for the sake of all the newbies out there (plus it's useful when you're trying to find a distribution for Aunt Tilly)."
I used to be a great promoter of XPde because of the very reasons you mention.
But its development seems alas almost non existent (maybe because customizing KDE and making it newbie friendly is so easy?)
34 • It may be interesting to see (by Benjamin Vander Jagt on 2005-05-31 00:18:30 GMT from United States)
>Free software is a great thing, but to insist that all software should be Free is silly I think. Maybe RMS has some arguments on this, but they didn't show up in this interview.
Well, it's a matter of ethics. Everything that comes out of the mind is some sort of mirror of what goes into the mind. So, it is safe to conclude, if one person thinks of something, everyone else can think of that same thing, too. That said, the idea that copyright "protection" promotes business is bad for two reasons. First, it has a record of hurting the economy much worse than it helps a couple businesses here and there. Second, it is doing something bad in the name of riches. My campaign slogan, should I ever run for public office, will be, "If it's fundamentally wrong, then it can't be practically right."
>Surely, Free software spreads quickly and creates network externalities, but the reduced possibility to make money from it surely also reduces innovative effort.
Actually, people have been saying that very same thing for decades, and for that reason, when Linux first started, it was assumed that it would fizzle out for lack of funding or change to a proprietary license. However, if you look at the amazing growth of free software, you see that this has not been the case. Keep in mind that many of the people who write and give away free software make a living doing it. Look at Red Hat, one of the most secure corporations in the US, or Novell, a veritable computing giant. I have charged to write free software for a special purpose. There's nothing wrong with charging for a service. This type of free software serves the niche markets.
>But this is what makes the future so interesting! It will be interesting to see how strong free software is in the long run. Safe bet seems to be that niche markets will remain strongholds of propietary software, but in basic server and desktop use, FOSS will make a big impact. Microsoft beware..
Indeed! (-: However, at this point, it's pretty safe to say that Microsoft needs to change their pants, because they messed in them long long ago. Compare Microsoft's actions to the words of Ghandi, "First they laugh at you, then they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win."
Analysts predict Linux will have 20% of the desktop market share by 2008. This may seem slow, but you need to keep a few things in mind. By simply being an alternative, Microsoft will see sharply declined sales of Longhorn, if it ever gets released. (Microsoft has already been missing their profit projections by several percentage points, which some say hasn't happened before.) Also, if you have merely 10% of a market share, you have almost as much power in the market as the guy who has 90%. Further, keep in mind that most analysts predict Linux growth to be relatively linear, but we on the inside know that the Linux developer communities grow exponentially.
Just look at what the free software communities have already created! Now we have QEMU, a powerful, fast, and free PC emulator, Reiser4, the fastest (by a lot), most secure, and almost most stable filesystem in the world, Mozilla, OpenOffice, loads of desktops (all fantastic), installers that run on anything and are much easier to use, portability to PC, Mac, PlayStation, X-Box, etc., the most stable and most powerful clustering.....the list goes on and on. How many of these things have had very major advances within the last 12 months? Reiser4 was released, QEMU got KQEMU, Mozilla released Firefox and soared with popularity, OpenOffice is beta-testing 1.9 (which is already adopted by many governments around the world).... We're seeing extraordinary things now. We don't have to wait and see what happens...
35 • Packages (by Ed Borasky on 2005-05-31 00:18:52 GMT from United States)
I've got an idea ... why not add both KDE and Gnome to the list and delete all the sub-packages?
Packages to add:
R, texmacs, clisp, cmucl, gcl, sbcl, guile, rosegarden4, lilypond, timidity
36 • RE: It may be interesting to see (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-05-31 00:38:44 GMT from Italy)
"Further, keep in mind that most analysts predict Linux growth to be relatively linear, but we on the inside know that the Linux developer communities grow exponentially."
Well said, Mr Vander Jagt.
And from my point of view also the number of users is growing exponentially.
Just look at how many people download SUSE, in one way or another.
My sister, to my shock, gave back immediately a laptop because Knoppix would not run on it (and I believed she was such a hardened MS user)
37 • Linux Counter (by Benjamin Vander Jagt on 2005-05-31 01:16:02 GMT from United States)
For a long time, it looked like either the Linux Counter got stuck at an estimate of 18 million users, or desktop usage was no longer being counted. I took another look today, and to my delight, it now says 29 million users.
http://counter.li.org/
38 • package tracking (by Igor on 2005-05-31 01:36:50 GMT from United States)
Hey;Ladislav,here's one for the audio techs...(ardour)!
39 • Re: It may be interesting to see (by Microsoft Bob on 2005-05-31 02:00:47 GMT from United States)
"So, it is safe to conclude, if one person thinks of something, everyone else can think of that same thing, too."
This is true, but I think you're missing the point. Patents are used to promote innovation (at least in theory), not just to grant exclusive rights to its holder. Take the case of drugs (the medicinal kind, mind you ;-). Sure, the world would be better if drugs weren't patented and thus became more affordable, but the revenues that pharmaceutical companies make from their patented drugs are used for further R & D which would not occur if they were forced to sell lower-priced drugs because of a lack of patent protection. This is a much more complicated issue than most people think, and certainly can't be reduced to the ridiculous simplicity of your above statement.
"That said, the idea that copyright "protection" promotes business is bad for two reasons."
I think you have copyright and patent law mixed up. All software is copyrighted automatically, by the writer of said software (at least in the United States). What RMS has his panties all up in a bunch about are patents, which he says stifle true innovation.
"First, it has a record of hurting the economy much worse than it helps a couple businesses here and there."
Umm, do you have some kind of evidence to back that up?
"Second, it is doing something bad in the name of riches."
That's completely subjective, and relies entirely on the unsubstantiated claim you make one sentence prior.
"My campaign slogan, should I ever run for public office, will be, 'If it's fundamentally wrong, then it can't be practically right.'"
Great, but what does that even mean?
"Keep in mind that many of the people who write and give away free software make a living doing it."
Wrong. They make a living doing other things, like selling support for said software (in Red Hat's case) or selling proprietary enterprise software and enterprise level support (in Novell's case). While they certainly do write and give away free software, this is not how they "make a living" (if by that you mean "make money," which is the commonly accepted meaning of the phrase).
"it's pretty safe to say that Microsoft needs to change their pants"
Is it? I, for one, am not so quick to write off Microsoft. Whether or not you like to admit it, Bill Gates and co. are smart folks, and they generally know what they're doing. We've all seen in the past how easily Microsoft dispatched their opponents (I'm looking at you, Apple, IBM, and Netscape). It may not be so easy this time, and Microsoft may not emerge victorious, but let's not confine them to the scrap heap just yet, ok?
"Analysts predict Linux will have 20% of the desktop market share by 2008."
Bah. Are those the same analysts who predicted OS/2 was the operating system of the future?
"Microsoft will see sharply declined sales of Longhorn, if it ever gets released."
Give me a break. First of all, that sentence means nothing, since declined sales of Longhorn would have to mean that they already have sales of Longhorn in the first place. Secondly, it will get released (eventually, I'll give you that) and it will still dominate the market. Why? Linux is a good OS, but Windows has it beat hands down when it comes to end-user usability. There is really no reason for the regular user to switch to Linux when he is already comfortable with Windows. I think the security card is overplayed, too, because despite all the yelling and screaming about Linux security, most end users really don't care enough to learn a new OS (which is still not as functional a desktop as Windows), especially once they have paid several hundred dollars for a Windows license with their new computer. Right now I think that OS X is a much more realistic contender to Windows on the desktop.
"Also, if you have merely 10% of a market share, you have almost as much power in the market as the guy who has 90%."
How exactly does the math work out on that one? (Seriously.)
"we on the inside know that the Linux developer communities grow exponentially"
Uh huh. And you do have numbers to back that up, right?
"We're seeing extraordinary things now."
And on that point I agree with you. I think Linux had great potential, and to some degree it still does, but it just suffers from the old 'too many cooks' syndrome. You get the people who do it for fun, the people who do it because they are genuinely interested in OS design, and the zealots who do it because RMS is Jesus and they want to take down "the man." Linux really lacks standardization and can't hope to displace Windows in this state of affairs. However, there are some really cool things coming out of the Linux world at the moment, I agree with you there.
40 • No subject (by benjamin@winchesterpc.com on 2005-05-31 02:40:40 GMT from United States)
"ridiculous simplicity of your above statement" - no need to make insults. (-:
41 • My take on Microsoft Bob (by Willia Roddy on 2005-05-31 03:16:54 GMT from United States)
Mircrosoft Bob: Your nom de Web implies you are here to pick a fight and muck up the flow on a predominately Linux, open-source Web site. That sucks. Is this part of a new Microsoft Crusade to the Linux Holy Land?
You are either:
1) hopelessly passive-aggressive
2) an insufferable devil's advocate, waiting for a chance to argue the other side of the issue now, or
3) a shill.
You seem to be cleaver, so why would you not understand that intelligent people can recognize obfuscation when the read it?
I, for one, as a 63-year-old man with none of the pretensions you mentioned, I fall into none of the categories you have listed, and I resent your effort snooker the Linux community.
As a home user, I could use Microsoft. I have four licensed copies of XP, one of Win2k, and one of Win98, so I've done my tour supporting proven monopoly. However, I use Linux to manage my affairs because it is a significantly safer way to visit the Internet and it is much easier and more complete to install than Window. And don't say it's not.
In addition, for someone such as myself, on a fixed income, free software is a god-send. I can have everything I need, up to date and ready to use, in much less than an hour with a Linux installation. And have it for free.
Here is my conclusion, based upon what you have written: I speculate that you're a shill. To use your cute juvenile jargon: Umm, do you have some kin of evidence to back up the fact you're not?
Obfuscate away, Microsoft Bob. But next time, don't leap out of the closet yelling, "Boooo!" without taking your silly mask off.
William Roddy
42 • RE: Microsoft Bob (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-05-31 03:29:16 GMT from Italy)
"most end users really don't care enough to learn a new OS (which is still not as functional a desktop as Windows), especially once they have paid several hundred dollars for a Windows license with their new computer."
I have news for you: in this country the vast majority of desktop computers are built by local shops or by small factories. They have no reason whatsoever to sell them with Winbloze and increase the price, and indeed the number of those who advise linux to the customers is increasing all the time.
43 • 2 things (by warpengi on 2005-05-31 04:18:14 GMT from Canada)
I'd certainly like to see VLC listed. It is one of my must have apps.
How about this month's donation go to the FSF in light of the RMS feature. You are still doing that are you not?
44 • Re: Microsoft Bob (by Soloact on 2005-05-31 04:25:35 GMT from United States)
I will put this as simply as I can, so that even "Bob" can understand this: I run MS WindowsXP Pro and Kubuntu on my main computer, I have a couple of external hard drives that were configured with NTFS, from before my installation of Linux. So, how come my MS XP can't see all of the HDDs and partitions? Hmmm, Kubuntu can read the NTFS just fine. I have to use Linux to rescue MS format from an MS OS. Funny.
Ok, folks, I know, but I'm slowly getting there to the total migration. My Laptop runs SimplyMEPIS 3.3 just fine. It ran SuSE 8.1 just fine, too. Kept crashing with MS Windows, though.
To Ladislav, how about including which "proprietary" video drivers (ATi, Nvidia with Open GL support) are included with a Distro? Just a thought.Great informative site!
45 • It may be interesting to see (by Benjamin Vander Jagt on 2005-05-31 04:30:20 GMT from United States)
(oops, watch out for that enter key when you meant to press backspace)
"...for further R & D which would not occur if..." - this is what people said about software, and previously it was held to be the "best example". the pharmaceutical companies specifically benefit from perpetuating the myth that patents and copyrights are necessary, because without the "protection", they wouldn't innovate. as has always been the case in the past, manufacturers benefit from having the best designs, and so it is to their benefit to promote development. (for instance, SuSE benefits from the free software movement, and they manufacture CDs) add to that the emotional aspect of grandmothers with their prescription drugs and how important it is that we keep spending money to find cures for six year old, and everyone gets irresponsible with money.
virtually every time anyone has taken the time to create a free-licensed alternative to something, everyone else has jumped on to develop it. look at loudspeaker design for instance.
"I think you have copyright and patent law mixed up. All software is copyrighted automatically" - I refer to the abuse of copyright law, often called "copyright protection".
"Umm, do you have some kind of evidence to back that up?" - software is a fine example. how much is saved in software costs by the many other countries who have switched to Linux? when a copy of Windows costs as much as a year's salary in third-world countries and doesn't run on the low-end computers there, saving a hundred or two is major.
"That's completely subjective, and relies entirely on the unsubstantiated claim you make one sentence prior." - the US has a problem understanding the purpose of law. laws are intended to be discovered, not invented. starting with the constitution, laws were simply copied from the Bible. then, as people asked for more clarification, legislators would discover what the law means for that instance. instead, we have a habit of inventing laws, which is how we've come up with the often mocked legislative mess that we have today.
"Great, but what does that even mean?" - in a way, it means that the end cannot justify the means. however, it takes it a step further to add "crime doesn't pay". to sum it up, if you try to do something and it doesn't perfectly comply with the most pure dogma, then it will not be productive. murder, no matter how convenient it looks, will not be worthwhile for everyone involved.
"Wrong. They make a living doing other things,..." - my family works for the government, so I've seen some of the great examples of writing free software for profit. the NSA has a load of Linux developers, and most of their contractors deal in free software as well, like Titan systems. I don't know about everywhere in the world, but I personally pay for free software written by several programmers in Sweden, and it seems to be kinda popular there. recently, it was found (and I think restated by Slashdot) that the idea that Linux is put together by unemployed people living in their parents' basements is simply a myth, and maybe that article is the basis behind your statement.
"Whether or not you like to admit it, Bill Gates and co. are smart folks, and they generally know what they're doing." - I'll believe it once they make a piece of good software. (-: if they know what they're doing, why don't they scrap WinFS (which has cost them millions and millions and still doesn't work) and just use Reiser4? all joking aside, even if they know what they're doing, they themselves state (just about every time they get in front of a microphone) they Linux is the biggest threat to Microsoft. they've been saying it for years, and all it has done is shifted the media's attention toward Linux.
"Bah. Are those the same analysts who predicted OS/2 was the operating system of the future?" - Siemens, a 150 year old, multibillion dollar tech firm
"since declined sales of Longhorn would have to mean that they already have sales of Longhorn in the first place." - they've made predictions about their past releases, and I think they will miss the mark by a lot this time.
"but Windows has it beat hands down when it comes to end-user usability." - now that, my friend, is subjective.
"There is really no reason for the regular user to switch to Linux when he is already comfortable with Windows." - there is really no reason for the regular user to switch to Longhorn when he is already comfortable with XP
"most end users really don't care enough to learn a new OS" - most do, and possibly most already have, depending on whose worldwide usage statistics you look at.
"How exactly does the math work out on that one? (Seriously.)" - well, for instance, Macintosh was able to achieve compatibility with every new major piece of hardware while only holding 6% of the market share. it's a very old and relatively well established parameter of economics...
"Uh huh. And you do have numbers to back that up, right?" - I'm not sure you understand. I'll give you some time to reformulate your responses, and then you can email me. (-:
46 • Wireless packages (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 04:55:04 GMT from United States)
what about tracking ndiswrapper / wireless-tools, for those of us who can't connect to the internet any other way knowing which distributions have these packages is a must
47 • No subject (by Wouter Van Hemel at 2005-05-31 05:05:38 GMT from Belgium)
Benjamin Vander Jagt: I think the requirement for open source is needed because it guarantees beyond any doubt that the users have, no matter what, the possibility to build on if the company or individual decides to withdraw the software for legal or economical reasons, going bust or death. The information is never lost, it's not a waste of effort if someone can still use it. It also enables the users to customise the software, which is pretty important. That's the whole freedom-part.
Also, I think freedom is never "god-given". People fight for it and even die for it, and thus should get the credit. (Well, deaths in the opensource community have been pretty low so far, but you never know how far Microsoft is willing to go. ;) )
While reading your post, well yes, Ladislav, please add dovecot.
48 • Wireless packages (by J05H on 2005-05-31 05:22:43 GMT from United States)
I second ndiswrapper, a big deal for wireless users these days
49 • RMS (by Wouter Van Hemel on 2005-05-31 05:29:02 GMT from Belgium)
I think many people don't see that RMS needs to be RMS, on the far -- even extreme -- side of freeness. He's the beacon on one side, (perhaps) Bill Gates on the other. It is not his job to be reasonable, easy-going and nice and cosy in the middle. He should be the example for others and convince people of his (free) side, and you can't do that if you're a doubter or all too reasonable person. You need someone at the extreme edge on one side of the spectrum, and it wouldn't make sense if it wasn't he who founded the free software side and made it his passion, passing it on to others. If he himself wasn't nuts about his own idea/philosophy, I fail to see how things would have worked... It's too ironic to blame the guy that made the philosophy to be like the philosophy. Surely you can't blame RMS for believing his own philosophy, in a way it would be like blaming a horse to act like one.
You don't have to agree with everything he says, you don't have to be the human reincarnation of the GPL yourself, just let him be at that far end and listen to what he has to say.
I'm just a bit tired of reading things like "he's a raving lunatic" or "he's a nutter" while that's exactly the case for anyone inspiring and/or leading a movement.
50 • No subject (by Max on 2005-05-31 05:40:36 GMT from Australia)
I see a 50-50 divide between M$ and GNU/Linux for the future which i think is great. I also think Windows will be free as in free beer eventually as people will just not pay for it.
Think of international phone calls for example. Just a few days ago I bought a $10 calling card and I spoke to a person in Japan for 5 hours and it cost me just $4. I could have also used the internet and not paid a dime, using skype or whatever else. Now, my phone company's "great international rates" range between 20c to $1 a minute to most countries. Now that just makes me laugh... They should get those great rates and stuff them up their great arse too...
I see the same with microsoft. Here in Australia a copy of XP costs around $400 at the average shop. I also think that is quite funny. And i really mean hahaha funny. I think it was lucky of them that they had the 90s to make all that absurb money and eventually become the richest thing on earth, but that era is just over I'm sorry.
I think we are seeing the end of a gold rush kinda of era where people used to pay through the roof for stuff that today is available almost or plain free.
Now you dont have to pay for something anymore unless you are NOT INFORMED or you DO want to pay. Many people out there still dont know about free software, but in a few years most of them will, and i hope they will all join us laughing at stupid microsoft price tags.
51 • Free Software, Micro$oftBob, Hello to all (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 06:04:17 GMT from United States)
I would first like to congratulate all the people that work behind the scences at Distrowatch.com. It is an excellent page that I like to read whenever I have a chance.
I am intrigued to find the reports and features like today's report about Richard M. Stallman. I agree with Mr. Stallman on many issues and on some I decide to remain neutral.
Micro$oftBob, just as many have pointed out, why do you add insult to injury on a page/site dedicated to free software. Many have answered your questions, I won't do that but I will tell you this... Micro$oft will eventually put out Longhorn, with its WinFS. It will try to put out a very strong encryption and activation schemes to lock you in, It will try to decide for you which software you can install/remove, etc. Someone out there will write a program/programs to "crack" the Microsoft encryption/activation schemes. Many people will still get Longhorn without paying for it, just like they do now with XP. They say that they(bad copies of windows/pirate) cannot get updates, when they can. Many are already doing it. They will charge for the updates according to some people, then who will care to get Micro$soft Windows Longhorn. Linux beats it hands down. It is a much more complete operating system and many people can use it anytime/anywhere. You do not have to buy a computer from a manufacturer with Windows preloaded, you can get it with Linux installed, or you can install it yourself. They say that the biggest challenge for Micro$oft is linux, when other's say that it is Windows itself. The biggest challenge is windows Pirate version(with Cracks Edition). Alof of people are comfortable with Windows 98/2000/XP so why will they like to pay just to get Longhorn.
Micro$oftBob, why do they call it "Longhorn", Does it have to do anything with UT Austin?
There are alot of people out there that work for us and help us when we need.
Regards
52 • Slackware book (by Don Go on 2005-05-31 06:51:56 GMT from Philippines)
after tinkling with SLAK, its nice to go back to its originator...SLACKWARE...I'll Download the book and the iso
53 • Re: Packages. (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 06:53:30 GMT from Germany)
> why not add both KDE and Gnome to the list and delete all the sub-packages?
Because distributions don't ship the rather big set of what is defined/released as "KDE" or "GNOME". One example I know is Linspire which is based on KDE but does not include Kontact but Mozilla, and ships also GNOME libraries but not the GNOME desktop.
54 • Re: [Patents are used to promote innovation] (by Ariszló on 2005-05-31 07:48:04 GMT from Hungary)
Micro$oft Bob wrote: Patents are used to promote innovation
It might have been the case when one could only patent true inventions but today many patents are not inventions at all. Read this:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-mec-india.html
55 • DW works! (by Michael Magua on 2005-05-31 08:09:46 GMT from South Africa)
Thanks for fixing DW for me ;-)
56 • package suggestion (by Fritz on 2005-05-31 09:02:27 GMT from United States)
The list is pretty complete right now, if I had to think of something to add, it would probably be winetools.
-> Fritz
57 • Re2: [Patents are used to promote innovation] (by Ariszló on 2005-05-31 09:27:18 GMT from Hungary)
This is another good site about the real nature of software patents:
http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/
58 • Re: Re: Microsoft Bob (by Soloact on 2005-05-31 04:25:35 GMT from United States) (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 09:31:58 GMT from Hungary)
“I have to use Linux to rescue MS format from an MS OS. Funny.
Ok, folks, I know, but I'm slowly getting there to the total migration.”
More often I have to use Windows XP to rescue my Linux installations.
I tried to migrate to Linux too and have tried out a lot of distributions. But the situation is that I’m using my PC as a productivity desktop workstation (I work on my PC to make some money) and all I want is a fast, stable and supported OS with high quality and proven applications. I want an easy to use desktop OS where things just work. Unfortunately today’s Linux distributions fail to do that. Please stop idealizing Linux.
I believe that Linux will be a great OS someday, but today it’s not. And this is the reality.
59 • packages suggestion (by Benoît Audouard on 2005-05-31 10:00:41 GMT from France)
- httpd is currently tracked could be renamed apache2 to find it more easily (2.0.54 currently... development versions not needed), or rename apache in httpd1 so they are near each other
- php5 as well (when php4 is maintained as well in parallell)
- gramps : a genealogy program (see gramps-project.org )
- hugin : panorama tools GUI from photographs (see hugin.sourceforge.net )
I vote too for nagios, mrtg, umbrello, esvn
cervisia is included in kdesdk package (client for cvs / and soon svn) AFAIK
60 • Re: Re: Microsoft Bob (by Soloact on 2005-05-31 04:25:35 GMT from United States) (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 10:06:08 GMT from Hungary)
“I have to use Linux to rescue MS format from an MS OS. Funny.
Ok, folks, I know, but I'm slowly getting there to the total migration.”
More often I have to use Windows XP to rescue my Linux installations.
I tried to migrate to Linux too and have tried out a lot of distributions. But the situation is that I’m using my PC as a productivity desktop workstation (I work on my PC to make some money) and all I want is a fast, stable and supported OS with high quality and proven applications. I want an easy to use desktop OS where things just work. Unfortunately today’s Linux distributions fail to do that. Please stop idealizing Linux.
I believe that Linux will be a great OS someday, but today it’s not. And this is the reality.
61 • @Anonymous from Hungary (by Ariszló on 2005-05-31 10:10:02 GMT from Hungary)
More often I have to use Windows XP to rescue my Linux installations.
This guy knows something. Windows Explorer can't even see my Linux partitions and PartitionMagic detects ReiserFS as if it were Ext2.
62 • Package Suggestion (by Max on 2005-05-31 10:36:01 GMT from Australia)
What about including enlightment?
63 • Re: @Anonymous from Hungary (by Ariszló on 2005-05-31 10:10:02 GMT from Hungary) (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 10:55:47 GMT from Hungary)
Maybe…:)
There are a lot of applications (both free and commercial) which are able to see, read and even write to the Linux partitions under Windows. So you can browse your Linux partitions even with Windows Explorer. I can rescue my important data stored in Linux partitions with ex2fs plug-in for Total Commander (read-only, but even with ReiserFS support) by copying this data to another place and I can fix most problems with Partition Magic.
64 • ibiblio incoming (by Ariszló on 2005-05-31 13:27:43 GMT from Hungary)
Found some new distributions, not listed at DistroWatch, in ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/Incoming/ :
Generations: http://www.softcraft.org/generations/
Houdinix: http://jpnossa.free.fr/files/maitriseInfo/houdinix/
ISlack: http://marksman.beplaced.com/
NaNoWriMo: http://mathiasdm.proboards29.com
and some others but I have to leave now.
65 • Ahh, yes. (by Kim Krecht on 2005-05-31 13:36:10 GMT from Germany)
I'd like to add my vote for acroread, chkrootkit, lame, libogg, icecast and timidity. Furthermore, I'd also like to add votes for Inform, TADS, irssi, kvirc and imcom.
> > I find the KDE-centricness of the above comments slightly disturbing. The world doesn't revolve around KDE, and the package list should reflect that.
>
> The world also doesn't evolve around GNOME. The reason why you see such an amount of KDE suggestions is simply because KDE is underrepresented in the current list:
>
> Why Evolution/Thunderbird but not Kontact?
> Why Nautilus/Firefox/Opera/Mozilla but not Konqueror?
> Why XMMS but not Amarok?
> Why Gaim but not Kopete?
> Why XChat but not Konversation?
> Why GQView but not Gwenview?
I don't consider myself very knowledgeable about KDE, but everything I've read up on that indicate the same, simple answer: "because all those KDE suggestions actually refer to parts of the complete KDE distribution". If those KDE bits and pieces are tracked, GNOME components should be tracked as well. They aren't; all you've come up with are separate applications which happen to support GNOME/Gtk. Except for Nautilus. Which is being tracked. Good thing.
66 • Re: Ahh, yes. (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 13:48:25 GMT from Germany)
> everything I've read up on that indicate the same, simple answer: "because all those KDE suggestions actually refer to parts of the complete KDE distribution".
Amarok, Konversation and Gwenview are not part of what you call "complete KDE distribution".
> all you've come up with are separate applications which happen to support GNOME/Gtk. Except for Nautilus.
Evolution is meanwhile part of GNOME. So should it be removed from the list? I don't think so.
67 • Packages (by Guido on 2005-05-31 13:57:45 GMT from Netherlands)
My vote: SDL, SQLite, irssi, DOSbox.
68 • Re: It may be interesting to see (by Benjamin Vander Jagt on 2005-05-31 04:30:20 (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 14:40:04 GMT from Hungary)
***"There is really no reason for the regular user to switch to Linux when he is already comfortable with Windows." - there is really no reason for the regular user to switch to Longhorn when he is already comfortable with XP***
How often you switch from one distribution to another one?
I vote for krusader.
69 • Extremists gone wild- microsoft shills from around the world (by AQ on 2005-05-31 16:43:43 GMT from United States)
"I believe that Linux will be a great OS someday, but today it’s not. And this is the reality."
Then why come to distrowatch? Is MSN not giving you enough zombie-food content?
You are far too ignorant to use your computer effectively in the first place... so don't embarass yourself by posting here. We use GNU/Linux and know the difference... and that is the high quality, integrity, security, and freedom of it.
You don't care for that, then good for you.
70 • Microsoft Bob (by x on 2005-05-31 16:58:17 GMT from United States)
A couple of issues concerning your position.
1. I hope you have permission to use the Microsoft name, as part of your name. Some of their legal staff has been known to be overzealous in their quest to protect their trademarks and other intellectual property rights. Check with Mike Rowe and what they did to this Canadian minor.
2. The orginal purpose of patents was to give the developer an opportunity to recoup his investment and make a profit prior to the entry of competitors into the market. Ideas were ideas and tangible inventions were patentable. The current drive, led by your favorite company, has been to patent ideas and extend the period of exculsivity well beyond any reasonable period. The purpose of this is to eliminate competition and stifle development of new ideas.
Without access to source code Microsoft might still be selling traffic counters. Mr Gates said he learned by reading code that he found in the trash at school. The vast number of out of court settlements they have made is a good indicator that some of the innovations claimed by them might have been developed by others who did not agree to their use.
Without open source Microsoft products would be nearly unusable on the Internet, tcp/ip is the underlying infrastructure.
So who is stealing what from who. With open source violations are very easily discovered and corrected. Closed source is a very good method of hiding crimminal activity. Hopefully, proprietary producers have ethical standards that will not allow the knowing violations of others' rights.
If I am wrong, correct me by citing the true facts.
71 • how well linux works? (by R on 2005-05-31 17:00:56 GMT from United States)
I have found that Hardware is the biggest piece to how well Linux works. I put together my own computer about 6 years ago. I picked the hardware that I felt the Linux Kernel would use the best. I have been running nothing but GNU/Linux for over 6 years and have NEVER had a problem with GNU/linux.
My brother built a computer about the same time, but he built it for gaming. He has had a vary hard time getting GNU/Linux running right.
We need to get hardware companys to start open sourcing there drivers, so we can get there hardware to work under GNU/Linux and other systems.
72 • Re: Extremists gone wild- microsoft shills from around the world (by AQ on 2005- (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 18:13:23 GMT from Hungary)
“Then why come to distrowatch? Is MSN not giving you enough zombie-food content?”
Because I using Linux too. It’s an open forum and everybody can post here his opinion about GNU/Linux. Right? Or only comments like: “Oh, a love my Mumbo-jumbo Linux installation!” are allowed in the world of freedom and open source? Shouldn’t we talk instead about how to make some things better, because everybody knows Linux isn’t perfect and even most of the open source applications run much faster and smoother on MS? Think about it.
“We use GNU/Linux and know the difference... and that is the high quality, integrity, security, and freedom of it.”
High quality, integrity? Where? Please point me to a high quality distribution. Ok: 1/ Red Hat 9.0 ruined my partition table and wasn’t even able to start the installation in graphical mode on my hardware; 2/ SuSE 9.1 tried to killed my fingers every time I tried to remove my CD from the CD-ROM drive and had every second package nearly useless because of the terrible amount of bugs; 3/ Slackware 10.1 was my favorite distribution, but it’s KDM killed my regular user account 2 or 3 times for no reason (Probably it’s decided that I’m a MS extremist and I can compromise the security). After that I was seriously disappointed. And I’m not a kinda newbie. So where is the, quality, effectiveness or even security? Bugs, bugs, bugs. Please think again about it before posting such aggressive replies!
73 • Re: Extremists gone wild- microsoft shills from around the world (by AQ on 2005- (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 18:33:56 GMT from Hungary)
And I almost forgot about playing Audio CD-s. It was on the top.
They were played just fine, well without sound…but who cares about it when we are talking about freedom, quality, effectiveness and security!
*****
Finally I figured out why there was no sound – the front-end tools weren’t able do detect and use my simple SB Live! Sound card.
74 • To Anonymous from Hungary (by Ariszló on 2005-05-31 20:21:09 GMT from Hungary)
You have tried several distributions and found several bugs. That means you could be a big help to the community by reporting bugs to the developers. They will not be able to fix your issues or even know about them unless you tell them.
75 • First (by AQ on 2005-05-31 20:34:54 GMT from United States)
Coming here to praise MS which is nothing but a cesspool of viruses and spyware was your own mistake. People here know better.
The fact that you can't figure out how to use a distribution correctly is your own problem.
Now, I will say that of course there are issues with certain devices made by short-sighted HARDWARE vendors that only make their products compatible with windows through closed source binaries.
Instead of spending your time here bitching as though distro users and distro makers can do jack about that, you should be spending your time writing to hardware manufacturers that are producing un-opened garbage.
If you think it is the job of developers to magically figure out every configuration of every closed binary piece of hardware these companies put out to get on the Microsoft Upgrade or Bust gravy train, then you are simply out of your mind.
If you have a bone to pick, then pick it with the hardware vendors, and tell them you either want a linux binary, or for them to open source their drivers or you will not buy from them anymore.
I have been running Fedora Core 3 for the past 5 months and have not had any problems at all. Of course I built my own computer and chose parts that I knew would be compatible... but if you really want to embrace your freedom, that might be the price you have to pay.
And finally, the entire free software movement is based on people getting involved by contributing either code or money to the process... if everyone sat on their ass and said "I'll only use it when it gets better" then it would never go anywhere or have gotten as far as it has. I consider it the same as voting. If you don't vote, then you shouldn't complain.
So I'll ask you, either become involved or don't complain... and if you must complain, then complain to the hardware vendors who actually deserve... not users and distro makers who understand and love their systems.
Sorry that that is harsh, but you need to get some priorities straight here to see yourself as a proactive force and not only a passive beneficiary.
76 • packages (by Anonymous on 2005-05-31 20:54:59 GMT from United States)
mc (midnight commander) -- IMHO essential -- but not every distro has it.
77 • Re: Packages (by Ariszló on 2005-05-31 21:51:11 GMT from Hungary)
http://kitenet.net/programs/alien/">Alien, amaroK, Gwenview, Inkscape, Kile, KMyMoney, Kontact, Konversation, Kopete.
Kim Krecht wrote: all packages that may be "Default Desktop"s should be tracked as well
Yes, could you add Enlightenment, please?
78 • Linspire 5.0 (by Dale Ducheneaux on 2005-05-31 22:47:33 GMT from United States)
I was ready one the reviews for Linspire and it said the cost of Linspire & CNR is $90. Ok I accept that but CNR is $50.00 year after that and it will allow you to get any future upgrades to Linspire so lets look at others that you have to buy the software every year! Linspire is a good value.
79 • Re: First (by AQ on 2005-05-31 20:34:54 GMT from United States) (by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 03:06:11 GMT from Hungary)
I’m not praising MS. I know it isn’t perfect too.
And I not only sitting and waiting: I contacting hardware vendors and I work with several members of the community and I’ve already did a few things for it – not too much, but I’ve did and I will work for the community in the future too. Therefore I feel myself morally right when I criticize something. And it’s not bitching. What I really dislike is when some (mostly commercial) distributions claim how perfect they are or when some member just idealizing their distributions and attacking others without even doing something really helpful for the community. But I also believe, than Linux community shouldn’t just bitching MS every time and for no reason, because finally it’s a good product and deserve some respect
“The fact that you can't figure out how to use a distribution correctly is your own problem.”
I can. But I can do nothing when it was compiled with the bugy version of some software. And this is what disappoints me.
80 • Re: Anonymous from Hungary (by warpengi on 2005-06-01 04:05:41 GMT from Canada)
I know people who have no end of trouble with micrososft OS's. They complain that the computer starts slowing down and gets viruses and needs the OS reinstalled every 3-6 months. You can fix these people up with spyware, antivirus and firewall and still they have the same problem year after year. Do those users think microsoft makes a great OS? NO!
For users like that a locked down version of Linux is just what they need. For them Linux IS a great OS. It is a great OS today, not some time in the future.
You want to offer constructive criticism AfH then learn to run Linux before trying to critique. You are like those mswindows users except your problem is with Linux. Maybe you will never get it to work cos you're just too inept with Linux. That makes your opinion of Linux just that...your opinion. And as AQ pointed out this is probably not the best place to post your ms lovin' opinions.
Just cos something did not work for you does not make it buggy.
81 • Re: Re: Anonymous from Hungary (by warpengi on 2005-06-01 04:05:41 GMT from Cana (by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 04:55:31 GMT from Hungary)
We all know about bugs. And please don’t say that any software around the world and therefore Linux too can be bug free. I don’t think I should post here a detailed list of bugs I recovered, because you also must know about them unless you are a kind of fanatic and blind religionist.
“You want to offer constructive criticism AfH then learn to run Linux before trying to critique.”
“I know people who have no end of trouble with micrososft OS's. They complain that the computer starts slowing down and gets viruses and needs the OS reinstalled every 3-6 months. You can fix these people up with spyware, antivirus and firewall and still they have the same problem year after year. Do those users think microsoft makes a great OS? NO!”
This is all what you can say? Shame! 1/ In most cases I have no time to spend hours, days to figure out why things not work. But I’ve have enough knowledge about how to use Linux. 2/ If someday Linux will be such popular as Windows today it will be also filled with viruses, spyware, etc. This is most about how the user cares about security, because there is no perfect software which can give a total protection. If somebody not cares about security then his/her Linux installation also can be infected with viruses, hacked, etc. even today.
And most of you guys have a dual-boot system with MS. If it’s really so sucks, then why you use it? And really do not need bitching MS just because B. G. reached something and you probably don’t.
82 • Re: To Anonymous from Hungary (by Ariszló on 2005-05-31 20:21:09 GMT from Hungar (by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 06:26:51 GMT from Hungary)
Thanks! You are constructive. I often contact developers and even have worked with some of them.
Unfortunately some other visitors of this forum are not so constructive and just act like members of some kind of superior race.
83 • Why feed the troll? (by fdavid on 2005-06-01 07:06:48 GMT from Austria)
Hey, Guys
Please don't feed the troll. You can find on any forum such people, who weren't able successfully install/configure/use a system, and then - certainly - it's other's fault and the system is a shit.
One should not bother answering for this type, since they don't want to solve their problems, but complain. And despite of the best intentions, you guys, cannot solve their problems, since they are the problem themselves.
If you would think that they formulate critic that should not be left unanswered, since with your answer they may realise sg. that they don't see, but you clearly understand...forget about. The points they bring up, are most of the time based on misunderstandings, and frustration. They come from unwillingness to leran to use sg., or to understand sg., and usually their comments are not without simple and stupid exaggerations, which can't be backed up with facts. These are that type of "critic", which definitely must be left unanswered. I say this, clearly knowing that constructive critic is one of the right , and as such a really welcome, form of contribution in the open source world.
84 • Re: Anonymous from Hungary (by warpengi on 2005-06-01 07:35:22 GMT from Canada)
I know people who have no end of trouble with micrososft OS's. They complain that the computer starts slowing down and gets viruses and needs the OS reinstalled every 3-6 months. You can fix these people up with spyware, antivirus and firewall and still they have the same problem year after year. Do those users think microsoft makes a great OS? NO!
For users like that a locked down version of Linux is just what they need. For them Linux IS a great OS. It is a great OS today, not some time in the future.
You want to offer constructive criticism AfH then learn to run Linux before trying to critique. You are like those mswindows users except your problem is with Linux. Maybe you will never get it to work cos you're just too inept with Linux. That makes your opinion of Linux just that...your opinion. And as AQ pointed out this is probably not the best place to post your ms lovin' opinions.
Just cos something did not work for you does not make it buggy.
85 • Habit is second nature (by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 08:12:16 GMT from Belgium)
I am not a computer whizz and I am dual-booting.
IMHO I think that the all users alike have to learn the system their PC is running.
While most of the MS users limit to learn the interface and some common (i.e. regular) tasks with some programs because (most) things work 'out-of-the box', the GNU/Linux users have sometimes to dig into the system files in order to achieve what they want (for instance browse the Inernet with a ADSL USB-modem) if the distro does not do it 'out-of-the-box'.
I think that most MS users
1. have forgotten this learning time;
2. do not want to go through another apprenticeship (if they have not forgotten).
IMHO the key element is 'desire' : you have to be interested in the new thing, you have to have the will to try.
For instance, my wife was not interested in computing untill she discovered the Internet, e-mail and instant-messaging. She had first to learn all of this and she did with MS; in the meantime I was already dual-booting with some distro. When I got the distro ready, she already knew a way to browse, to mail her friends, then why should she bother with learning another way ? I showed her that it was as easy with GNU/Linux than it was with MS but she just does not see the interest. Even with MS you can use say Firefox instead of IE, thunderbird for Outlook... but quite often habit is second nature.
86 • Re: Why feed the troll? (by fdavid on 2005-06-01 07:06:48 GMT from Austria) (by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 08:19:03 GMT from Hungary)
“And despite of the best intentions, you guys, cannot solve their problems, since they are the problem themselves.”
“They come from unwillingness to leran to use sg., or to understand sg., and usually their comments are not without simple and stupid exaggerations, which can't be backed up with facts.”
Best intentions? Laugh it up! All I saw here is the couple of aggressive guys, who’s tried to protect their favourite toys like wild dogs protect their food-bones.
Want facts?
Fact No 1: I’ve contacted one developer who worked hardly in the open source development in the last few years and was a big Linux fan. I’ve asked him some questions about his software, but he told me very politely that now he had more important things to do than tinkering and playing with Linux. I’ve checked what e-mail client program he uses – I expected something like Evolution, but it was MS Outlook.
Fact No 2: I’ve contacted one hardware vendor who always has writes drivers for Linux. I’ve contacted him, because my hardware not worked with the newest version of the kernel. He told me he gets tired to rewrite the drivers every few month just because every new release of Linux breaks the compatibility this the oldest one.
Want more facts? You know where to find them.
But all what you can bring on the table is claim that somebody who are not satisfied with something just a stupid idiot. And what if I even more sophisticated *nix user than you? You can’t know that.
Get tired to talk with you guys.
87 • Re: Habit is second nature (by Ariszló on 2005-06-01 09:00:26 GMT from Hungary)
Anonymous from Belgium wrote: While most of the MS users limit to learn the interface and some common (i.e. regular) tasks with some programs because (most) things work 'out-of-the box', the GNU/Linux users have sometimes to dig into the system files in order to achieve what they want
Most MS users have their operating systems and office suites preinstalled and are quite hopeless when they have to configure the internet on their own or install a driver for a graphics card that Windows does not support out of the box. Even such users may be happy with Linux if they acquire it the same way they acquire MS products: go to a store an buy a new computer with Linux preinstalled.
Note. When I say Linux, I mean what some people would call "GNU/Linux." When I say the Linux kernel, I mean what they would call "Linux."
88 • donation to audacity (by im_ka on 2005-06-01 12:11:50 GMT from Sweden)
i would like to recommend audacity for the next dw donation.
it's a great free & multi-platform audio editing tool.
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
89 • ibiblio incoming (cont.) (by Ariszló on 2005-06-01 13:52:37 GMT from Hungary)
Poseidon Linux <http://poseidon.furg.br>: remastered from Kurumin
Underground Desktop : Debian Sid optimized for i686
Vinque <http://www.vinque.org>: Gentoo-based bootable business card
90 • Here's the link (by Ariszló on 2005-06-01 13:55:11 GMT from Hungary)
Links sometimes disappear in my comments:
http://www.ludos.org/Underground/
91 • Re: Why feed the troll? by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 08:19:03 GMT from Hungary (by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 18:56:05 GMT from Canada)
"And what if I even more sophisticated *nix user than you? You can’t know that."
Yes I can! You found those releases you mentioned earlier to be full of bugs. Were you as sophisticated a *nix user as you would have us believe, those supposed bugs would not have bothered you as you set up your system. If you have the knowledge to properly set up and configure Gnu/Linux then you simply correct most install issues as you complete the setup. That's what I do.
Computers are not cars in spite of the many comparisons. Just cos you know how to drive windows does not mean you know anything about driving gnu/linux.
I doubt you're a stupid idiot AfH. You are definitely frustrated and confounded by gnu/linux. If you keep working at it you will probably learn what you need to know to have things work for you. That is what it takes though, hard work. I have worked at Linux very hard now for about 4 years and I no longer run microsoft for any of the computing I need to do. Don't talk to me about dual booting cos I don't.
92 • last comment (by warpengi on 2005-06-01 18:57:49 GMT from Canada)
OOPS! That last comment was by me.
93 • Subversion (by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 22:34:35 GMT from United States)
Subversion, please.
94 • Re: Re: Why feed the troll? by Anonymous on 2005-06-01 08:19:03 GMT from Hungary (by Anonymous on 2005-06-02 07:53:37 GMT from Hungary)
Sorry, maybe I just don’t have enough patience. But I was able to fix the most things I’ve described above, but even after that I didn’t find any advantages to use those systems. I just thought than even opinions like mine should be represented because it’s may be helpful in some cases. But seems I was wrong again. It’s a very interesting I recovered: I relatively often visit some different forums (not only Linux and even not OS related ones) mostly as just a silent reader and I only start some discussions when I find some things I really don’t agree. But the result always the same – these forums are actually hates when somebody comes with any kind of different and oppositional opinion. The most of communities like this one feel itself more comfortable in their closed world and hates those folks whose thinks differently. It’s my fault – I know I shouldn’t do that anymore. Sorry if I pissed off somebody here. I promise to not bother you guys.
95 • Re4: Why feed the troll? (by Ariszló on 2005-06-02 09:02:19 GMT from Hungary)
Anonymous wrote: I was able to fix the most things I’ve described above, but even after that I didn’t find any advantages to use those systems.
Personally, I'm not using Linux for its technical advantages. I just don't like that all the world's money goes to the home of the One Operating System.
96 • Re5: Why feed the troll? (by warpengi on 2005-06-02 16:56:11 GMT from Canada)
" I relatively often visit some different forums................But the result always the same"
There is one thing in that equation that is always the same. That is you, my friend. This is a classic example. It is not all the people in all the different forums that you visit that are all the same. Perhaps the response you get is always the same because what you are putting out there is always the same. Try expressing an opinion that is complimentary or asking a question about something you need help with. Notice the difference in the response you get, and I can assure you that the response will be very different!
Forums and online communities can be extremely harsh and unfriendly. They can also be extremely helpful and instructive. I know, I have been on the receiving end of both sides. I have been on the giving end of both sides.
So stop your whining, change your approach and learn how to get along. We all have to learn that starting in kindergarten and it never stops, it seems.8~(
97 • sad news (by Anonymous on 2005-06-02 18:11:35 GMT from United States)
Just tried to visit the libranet website. There is a notice posted saying:
-----------------------------
Important Notice
June 1st 2005
Libranet is sad to inform you that its founder and President, Jon Danzig, passed away this morning.
In keeping with our traditions we will be closed until June 13th 2005 at which time Libranet will reopen.
During this time emails may not be responded to and delivery of pre-ordered CDs will be delayed.
Thank you for your understanding.
-------------------------------------------
This is a great loss.
98 • package tracking (by citizenDAK on 2005-06-03 01:23:13 GMT from United States)
++ Captive NTFS
+ UnionFS
99 • New packages: SELinux (by blowfish on 2005-06-03 16:29:20 GMT from Finland)
How about tracking SELinux? I know that not many distros provide it yet, but the major distros are getting there and following Fedora, one by one.
Number of Comments: 99
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
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