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1 • Thank you (by Alex on 2005-02-07 14:21:56 GMT from United States) |
As always, a great update on the world of Linux distributions. Things are really coming together in the Linux world it seems, distributions like SimplyMepis 3.3 and Linspire 5.0 are all excellent, but most importantly, they are intuitive enough to be a choice for the masses.
2 • Thanks for all your work! (by Michael Valentine on 2005-02-07 14:22:35 GMT from United States)
Again a very good and informative DistroWatch Weekly. Look forward to these every monday morning. Thanks!
3 • Ubuntu and Debian (by reddazz at 2005-02-07 14:32:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
I wonder how Ububtu's popularity will affect Debian and it's release cycle. It would be nice if Debian itself benefited from this popularity and did something about actually releasing a stable distro soon.
4 • why taiwan? (by im_ka on 2005-02-07 14:35:31 GMT from Hungary)
thanks for another great dw weekly issue.
i was wondering: how did you end up living/working in taiwan?
cause your name doesnt sound like that.
5 • Re: Ubuntu and Debian (by Benedict on 2005-02-07 14:45:17 GMT from Belgium)
yeah, i wonder about that too. Or what is going to happen to debian once Ubuntu starts to get even more popular?
6 • missing i-usb 1.2 news (by Florent on 2005-02-07 14:45:21 GMT from France)
Flonix i-usb 1.2, new USB desktop, is also out !
We have sent mails to Ladislav but no news on distrowatch home page and no Flonix page update at this time. We hope it will be done soon.
7 • Ubuntu (by robT on 2005-02-07 15:02:05 GMT from United States)
Just goofing around, I tried the LiveCD from Ubuntu (Warty). Seemed OK, but it has some quirks for a LiveCD. I have ASDL and although the network connection worked with no problems, ASDL wasn't working. It turns out that resolv.conf didn't update with the nameservers used by the ISP. After I added them, no problems. The other quirk, for a LiveCD, is the total reliance on "free" software. I don't really care enough to research it, but lack of some libraries, etc. would seem to overly limit the usefulness of a LiveCD. Although it's easy to use apt-get install after an hard drive install, I couldn't figure a way to do it from the LiveCD.
8 • Ubuntu and Debian (by Rituraj on 2005-02-07 15:24:46 GMT from India)
Ubuntu is definately good for debian. Ubuntu's simplicity and popularity will generate more interest in community and people will generate awareness in Newbie community about Debian.
Debian's release policy is not bad at all. It has an advantage by having Feature Based releases and having strong policy with democratic way which no other GNU/Linux distribution has. It truely is a Universal Operating System.
9 • Mandrakelinux too commercial?!? (by Freggy on 2005-02-07 15:50:00 GMT from Belgium)
I wonder if the author has ever followed the Mandrakelinux Cooker mailing list. Mandrakelinux' development is now certainly not more closed than it was a few years ago. Developers actively read and comment the cooker mailing list, and there is a large number of non-Mandrakesoft employee Community members helping to create packages. Mandrakelinux is a lot more open than say SuSE, and I think it is also a bit less "elite" than Fedora, who ban a lot of packages from their distro because of patents or they don't want to support it (mp3, mono, wine, ntfs support),...
10 • Ubuntu (by Chuck B on 2005-02-07 15:51:57 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu is a very nice distro, however Mandrakelinux's recent decline in hits on distrowatch has more to do with the lack of mandrake news and overwhelming amount of news regarding Ubuntu.
Dont take this the wrong way, but i have seen distros get upward trends after news on distrowatch. Perhaps this is caused by people reading the articles to see what is new. Mandrake hasnt been overly active on DW lately but i suspect that they will go back up after a release of some sort.
11 • library (by ray carter on 2005-02-07 16:07:18 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the pic of the school computers running Ubuntu. In a much smaller project I have installed Mandrake 10.1OE on four of the five public access internet computers at a local library (they recently reopened after major expansion and rennovation). After a couple of weeks, I asked the director if there had been any comments pro or con about the change. She indicated that the public has taken the change in stride. Only real change she noticed was the before Linux, she had to intervene about three times per day to help patrons with internet problems on the MS computers, now the Linux systems "just run". I can get you a photo if you're interested.
12 • Re: Freggy (by Chris Hickman on 2005-02-07 16:09:28 GMT from United States)
You say that it's more open, but how has that openness benefitted the distro? I don't know of anyone that feels that Mandrake is the best desktop distro anymore, and I don't see where the distro has marked improvements aside from the same version upgrades of software that every other distro has. Perhaps it's more open than SuSE and less elite (?) than Fedora, but I feel that both distros put out a much higher quality product, strictly speaking in terms of bugs.
13 • Ubuntu's popularity (by Dexter Ang on 2005-02-07 16:21:55 GMT from Philippines)
I don't know about others, but my reasons for switching to Ubuntu is for several good reasons:
1. Fast. It's not as fast as Gentoo, but it beats the hell out of Fedora. I can't comment about Mandrake since I haven't used it since 8.x, and that uses KDE by default and not Gnome.
2. Easy to install new software from a main official source. Just like Gentoo except without the compile time. And unlike Fedora (before Fedora Extras anyway).
3. Infinite upgradability. In theory anyway, as there's only been one final release so far. But based on experience with Debian, it should be fairly simple and painless to upgrade to the latest release. Somewhat like Gentoo, without the compile times. And definitely unlike Fedora, where it just doesn't seem to work right.
All is subjective, and is correct in my eyes. It might hold true for others as well. But these are the reasons why I switched to Ubuntu. And I will definitely get others to try this out.
And let's not forget the free pressed CDs that they ship. I hope they don't lose too much money on these.
14 • Ubuntu and Debian (by adbak on 2005-02-07 17:01:35 GMT from United States)
I don't know exactly what will happen to Debian with Ubuntu's rise in popularity, but I do know that Ubuntu, whenever they make changes on a Debian packages, sends the corrected/fixed/improved packages back to Debian. So in a way Debian will always be on par with Ubuntu, but Ubuntu will have it all bundled nicely.
15 • Ubuntu hits & funding (by Deiller on 2005-02-07 17:38:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm sure Ubuntu will get more hits because Ladislav has started to report on new Ubuntu newsletters regularly. That gives something for people to click to. He reports Debian & Ubuntu newsletters (and gentoo?). Is he consciously favoring non-RPM distros??
Well anyway, we must also remember that Ubuntu is funded by millionaire Mark Shuttleworth, and if that support stops, lots of developers will desert. Good thing to keep in mind when accusing other distros for commercialism...
Ok, I'm starting to sound hypercritical. Thanks to Ladislav for great work.
16 • Solaris comments (by Nagesh Subbanna on 2005-02-07 17:38:24 GMT from Israel)
Solaris 10 can discover the Realtek 8139 network card. On my laptop, it detected the network card and the Intel i855 Graphics card. Also, from Solaris 10, one can have both Linux and Solaris on the same disk, and it does not even give an error. I am currently running Solaris 10, FreeBSD and Debian GNU/ Linux on the same disk on my laptop without any problems.
17 • Ubuntu <=> Mepis (by Nemo on 2005-02-07 17:42:09 GMT from Netherlands)
Can someone explain all the exitement about Ubuntu to me.?I have seen this happen on Distrowatch serveral times now. Where was the article about Mepis when it was #1 in the chart a few weeks ago? I did not see it. Mepis does the work as well as Ubuntu does. In fact, with Mepis my ADSL connection simply worked, where it did not with ubuntu (Has this problem been solved in the meanwhile?)
One of the reasons why Ubuntu gets all the attention and Mepis does not is the money behind Ubuntu, I guess. Where Mepis is a small company needing all the resources it has to create a fantastic product for its users, Ubuntu can work on marketing. And with success! But this does not mean we are talking about a better product.
18 • Ubuntu ? Mepis ? Debian for sure!!! (by titiv on 2005-02-07 18:23:19 GMT from France)
I do really hesitate a lot mepis and Ubuntu are (at my opinion) the best distros actually available, but.
Ubuntu = Gnome
Both work very well for me, but where will be others if or when ubuntu will release theire Kubunu with the same profesionalism ? (if anyone have a clue)
Just remember before Ubuntu...Linux gain a lot with this distrib. They woke up a true way for the Linux desktop. Of course it is promoted with the money of a rich donator, so what? At least or at last we must recognise that it has been a great move for us single users.
For me there is a before and an after.
Bravo Mr Ubuntu, keep it up there is still a lot to make.
19 • Ubuntu (by Anonymous on 2005-02-07 18:36:09 GMT from United States)
Hits to the distors are directly related to news articles and popularity, and Ubunto happens to have an artice a day, go figure
20 • Solaris now open source comments. (by Andre Gompel at 2005-02-07 18:55:31 GMT from United States)
welcome to the club of free software: free in what Stallman meant: access to the source allow modifications, enhancements etc...
Solaris (Actually Sun OS) "shines" by its technical qualities: solid, fancy, well documented.
I have not read the licence, so I will not coment on this, but I tend to believe that if there is a major problem there, SUN initially "timid", may correct it eventually and come with another license model, like TrollTech did with QT.
I just hope it allows using other pieces of open source software in Solaris, and vice versa use of "Solaris best pieces" in other open source projects.
Already IBM , SGI did just this with XFS, JFS and more...(BTW: Do they mount on Solaris?)
It is hard to imagine that the momentum build by Linux can now be reversed, but Solaris will probably complement Linux.
Also SUN is also quite a hardware house, like SGI, and it would be great if they could build on their expertise high end, multi processor, open source systems for servers... and more.
Would I be iconoclast enough to ask here if/when will Java be open source?
Well this may take some time, but if Open source Solaris is a success, after Open Office (also SUN), this is conceivable.
Will SUN team with AMD, or Motorola, or even HP?
Form an outsider point of view, it seems very rationale.
Good luck SUN, with Open Source...
21 • Mepis, Ubuntu, Knoppix, etc and Debian GNU/Linux (by Popeye on 2005-02-07 20:28:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
For the time being, Mepis is the best ready-to-run debian-based distro. Mepis was installed successfully in my four different (low-price) laptops. Tricks were never needed; "Just Run - Simply the best".
Ubuntu is a good distro but it has to be improved; and it will be day by day. Ubuntu may get the first from Mepis some day.
Debian GNU/Linux does RULE in the absolutely right way. IT is what IT has to be and not what some people would like IT to be. Debian GNU/Linux is the foundation stone. As a stone IT is moving with difficulty but IT is steady and unfaltering in the right direction.
Debian GNU/Linux is definitely not a playground.
A great thank to KNOPPIX for the live-cd distro must be given, as well.
Thanks for your time!
Popeye, the sailor man
PS: Are still there people who waste their times with strictly hard-commercialised rpm-based distros? Why? Company makes money and you fellows makes nothing! You don't like debian-based distros? Then you could choose Slackware, Gentoo, or even FreeBSD, or GoboLinux (that was a joke ;-) In fact I have nothing against GoboLinux but you maybe don't like the idea.)
Remark: As you see I have avoided on purpose to mention any strictly hard-commercialised debian-based distros.
22 • MEPIS & Ubuntu - not even close (by Gnobian_Ken00bie on 2005-02-07 20:40:02 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu may be funded by one man but it has a huge team of developers from both Debian and GNOME projects and MEPIS has... Warren. (Not a slight of him. He's done some impressive work.) And Shuttleworth has made very clear that he's committed to Ubuntu for the long haul and doesn't expect to see a profit from it any time soon. He's a big picture thinker and didn't throw his money behind this on a whim.
Ubuntu has regular security updates. MEPIS uses mainly Debian testing, which is the least reliable in terms of timely security updates.
Ubuntu is entirely free software, whereas MEPIS - and this IS a slight of Warren - has several closed source components, closed because Warren bought a Trolltech license in a piblic fit of pique at having to comply with the GPL.
On the side of MEPIS, its installer is easier to use - though not as flexible. But there's a reason Ubuntu sticks with the less pretty Sarge installer: compatibility with Debian and the potential for supporting a greater variety of architectures.
And that brings us to another strength of Ubuntu: it runs on the powerPC architecture and there's an amd64 port - which is a big plus for the growing number of people using 64-bit machines.
MEPIS also has an advantage when it comes to things like multimedia codecs, plugins, and such. And I agree with the poster who points out that Ubuntu's not having those on their live CD is VERY limiting. But once installed, it's no problem to get those things on Ubuntu. It gives people a choice and educates them about issues surrounding free software, so I don't consider this a huge disadvantage.
Finally, and this is anecdotal I admit, when I have given friends and family the option of installing MEPIS or Ubuntu for them, they have always found Ubuntu easier and more enjoyable to learn and use once installed. The installation itself isn't as easy, nor is getting multimedia set up, but once that's out of the way, Ubuntu's interface is a huge winner.
23 • Ubutnu (by Mike on 2005-02-07 20:43:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
I recently tried to install Ubuntu 64-bit edition for my lovely new Athlon 64. The installer wasn't exactly "user friendly". Let me put it this way - Windows was easier to install! Then X windows failed to start because my graphics card wasn't recognised. I tried compiling the NVidia drivers but that didn't work. I tried apt-getting them but that didn't work either. Now I'm back on my old LFS install. It may only be 32-bit (until I re-compile) but at least it works.
I look forward to Ubuntu maturing into a great OS but I can't help feeling this rush of publicity at such an early stage could prove harmful in the long run. One can still encounter people who don't trust ReiserFS because of failures back in it's early days.
24 • good old days of "Mandrake Linux" , Congrats to Unbuntu (by Moulinneuf on 2005-02-07 20:45:06 GMT from Canada)
To Ladislav Bodnar ( if thats your real name ),
You are not allowed and havent earned the right to speak of the " good old days of "Mandrake Linux". You have absolutely NO accurate information , what so ever about what truely happened in those days. You of all people add absolutely nothing to do with it , in any way shape or form.
Congrats to the Ubuntu Community , your hard work and contribution to GNU/Linux is showing all over the place and we where proud ( Speaking only of myself and for myself ) to have been beaten by someone who share the same value as the true Mandrakians , this only means that we will have to work that much harder to be the best from now on. Again congratulation and hopping you will be around for a long time.
25 • vim feature (by Geoff Gigg on 2005-02-07 21:18:51 GMT from Canada)
Unless this has been added since the last time I looked ...
An option to make the "R" command sticky, so that you stay in replace mode after arrowing inside the current line, or arrowing up or down to another line - in fact until you "i" again.
26 • @Moulinneuf (by Realistic Bastards on 2005-02-07 21:19:48 GMT from Canada)
Hey Mouli ,
Dont bother replying to Ladislav he as it in for Mandrake , somehow he blame them for getting fired from linpus ...
I know what you mean by Ladislav not participating in the Good old days of Mandrake , and yes , he is using is position as editor in chief of Distrowatch to discredit Mandrake every chance he gets. He is probably missing your hard work which he attribute to Denis Havlik Aka Deno ,
he also probably as no idea of who Tom Berger is or Vincent Danen or David Faure or Mosfet or Guillaume Cottenceau or Alexis Younes or Phil lavigna or Frederic Crozat or Lenny Cartier or Jean-Michel Dault or Civilme or till kampeter or even Gaël Duval or etc ...
Yes , I agree with you , those who like Ladislav Bodnar add absolutely nothing to do with the good old days of Linux-Mandrake should not speak of it , but dont hold your breath they will anyway.
Lets not forget To Congratulate the Unbuntu community for rigging the P-H-D. Its not like they won by actually doing the hard work they just asked there community to come over here , I just hope that Mandrakians dont do the same , this only means more money for Ladislav wich probably get paid by the hits ...
Dont worry Bro we will have the last laugh.
27 • To the people bashing Ladislav (by Alan Moser on 2005-02-07 21:41:42 GMT from United States)
I am fucking sick and tired of this, you people (speaking more toward Realistic Bastards and Moulinneuf), if you do not like what Ladislav is saying don't fucking come hear. You guys are nothing but trolls and you know it. No one is forcing you to read this web site, the fact of the matter it that, if you do not like what is said on this web site don't read it. Ladislav has every right to post what he wants to on this website, and he as earned it because he is the fucking owner of the website. So why don't you guys go back to your god damn mandrake community and start basing their.
P.S. I am for setting up membership at this website, it would keep fuckers like you out of here.
28 • Ubuntu (by Warpengi on 2005-02-07 22:48:20 GMT from Canada)
I tried Ubuntu when I was looking for an x86_64 distro. Ubuntu installed nicely but...
I don't really like GNOME. Seems kind of clunky. In fact older versions of GNOME seemed to be laid out better than this. I like GNOME's philosophy and most of the apps I like to run are GTK+ based but I just can't get to like the UI no matter how much I want to.
Lack of apps. Now this is not JUST a problem with Ubuntu, it is true of x86_64 in general. There is a problem with lack of apps (specifically multimedia apps) for Ubuntu being such a new distro. I know some of you are going to say there are all these apps and stuff but I need specifically vlc media player and mplayer, neither of which were available for Ubuntu at the time. It would be nice to see Ubuntu built to allow the use of Debian repositories but that, alas, is unlikely.
Ubuntu looked very nice and seemed stable as a rock. Definitely "your granny's distro" as everything to browse the net, email and create documents is there. Maybe I will come back to Ubuntu in a while.
I have installed SuSE x86_64 and it works verywell. Seems more stable than Mandrake that I had been running for several years and my apps are supported. Sure do miss urpmi though:~( But there is apt-get for Suse:~) I just have to get around to installing it and it is unsupported:~(
29 • vim (by Warpengi on 2005-02-07 23:11:05 GMT from Canada)
oh ya, and vim. I find something comforting in the fact that it takes a :wq to actually change the file. It makes me very comfortable reading anything in vim, even when I am running it as root.
30 • Contributed stories (by ladislav on 2005-02-07 23:44:57 GMT from Taiwan)
Guys, just a quick reminder that contributed articles are welcome on DistroWatch. I write the way I see things, but I understand that my views might not be in agreement with those of others. They might not be correct either. If you feel that a particular distribution is the greatest thing since slice bread and are willing to write about it, by all means do! I'll be happy to publish your article in DistroWatch Weekly.
31 • Solaris, huh... (by Anonymous on 2005-02-07 23:51:46 GMT from Finland)
Solaris 9 didn't play well with APIC. Disabling APIC got my integrated sound chip working. Sounds like they still haven't fixed that.
BTW, you might want to include blastwave.org in the Related Web Sites for Solaris. Though not officially supported, they offer lots of F/OSS packages for Solaris.
32 • About Mandrake and the rest of the usue... (by Big Moron on 2005-02-08 00:07:09 GMT from Puerto Rico)
Well... calm down... I think you misundertand a bit...
Maybe you should see it diferently on what ladyslv said...
I mean, look at the change in filosophy that went on with mandrakelinux... it was totaly free... and now it is not entirely free... I know it is no big deal in a big way for mandrake nor their users... the users migth pay or wait a little to get the latest an count on the open clup for help... But trully you have to pay to get their help *which is not bad for mandrake to do... and ladyslav said it... they need cash anyway...
The thing is that they are not in the same path as before... not offering their free stuff as in the old days... thats why ladyslav refered as the good old days, when they were able to do that...
Things change, some have manage to stay on the same plan... some have to make changes... hopefully this kind of changes won't affect us to much... nor the ones that need to make such change's...
Don't overblow comment like that people... Opinions are free and without guaranties... get some salt now an then...
33 • Ubuntu vs Mandrake (by abear on 2005-02-08 00:28:56 GMT from Canada)
Not being a greatly knowledgeable linux user, Mandrake was and still is a very easy distro to install and maintain. Upgrading to newer versions though isn't always a pleasant thought, (video drivers, browser plugins and their multimedia counterparts still take time to re-install). Considering that I maintain a couple of family computers, each upgrade (everybody wants the new toys) adds to the experience. So logically I have been eyeing the Debian family simply because of the purported apt-get upgrade option. It sure sounds like it would be easier for family and friends to upgrade their machines once the initial install is completed. Debian simply doesn't support all the new toys with the stable woody, so Ubuntu seems a natural progression since there is no Enterprise version as in Mepis. But here's the sticky part, what happens when, say, my daughter installs toys not supported in the Ubuntu main component stable and then does a apt-get upgrade in the future? Is it going to BORK? and if so, am I back to doing another install? Will I be the proverbial dog chasing it's tail?
Just a thought.
34 • abear's questions (by Gnobian_Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 00:43:22 GMT from United States)
For someone not very knowledgeable, those are astute and thoughtful questions, whether than the all too common flamebait. I can tell you that in my own experience, having alternative sources and upgrading from Warty to Hoary presented no special difficulties - but bear in mind that running a development version is always risky and on any given day could cause problems. But based on that and on the relatively short development cycle of Ubuntu, i would anticipate any major conflicts. In fact, the conflicts seem to be on the other end: adding some of the Marillat packages that installed fine when Ubuntu first released began to present dependency problems when I installed for a friend. The marillat packages had been updated and this required some pinning from Hoary, which I wasn't too crazy about doing. No need to do a huge reinstall, but still less than ideal.
35 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-02-08 00:44:03 GMT from United States)
that should have said "rather than..."
36 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-02-08 00:45:09 GMT from United States)
and "wouldn't anticipate".
37 • clarifying for abear (by Hnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 00:54:32 GMT from United States)
Typos aside, I think what I said was a bit unclear. Here's something that I hope is more informative. Ubuntu is based on a snapshot of Debian sid. That includes main, main restricted, universe, and multiverse. All of these repositories will be in sync and are intended to upgrade cleanly, so that should present no problems. However, non-Ubuntu sources, like Marillat, are synced to Debian and will be fully compatible with ubuntu at the time Ubuntu releases, but may get out of sync as the Ubuntu release gets older. If you've already installed from those sources, you just can't upgrade them until the next release - which shouldn't be a problem - but if you're installing the last release now, trying to install the Marillat packages will present dependency issues. that's been my experience anyway.
38 • Mandrake changes (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-08 01:01:45 GMT from Italy)
Just one simple example of how Mandrake has changed: my alumni membership is expiring. And yes, I do visit the club. In the past it didn't expire.
What is after all an alumni membership? It is only a very basic courtesy that costs nothing: you can post with your nickname instead of anonymous: in every other forum it is a right taken for granted.
If former members lose this very basic right, do you think they'll be more willing to renew their paid membership in the future?
39 • Abusive behaviour (by Bernard on 2005-02-08 01:36:36 GMT from Australia)
Why do some readers have to be so aggresively abusive and insulting to the author of a point of view whose opinion they disagree with? The use of offensive and bad language on a public forum is both unecessary and inexcusable which only gains contempt and disgust for the author. This sort of conduct has no place here and represents a total lack respect and tolerance for others and perhaps something regretably missing from their own education and upbringing. Unfortunately this sort of behavour seems to becoming all too common with the present young generation in our so-called western democracy. Please don't propagate it. Keep comments civilised and polite and if you really must use bad language and behaviour keep it within your own household where you may perhaps find it more acceptable.
40 • Mr.Correction (by Spelling Bot on 2005-02-08 01:42:26 GMT from United States)
sceptic should be skeptic
41 • HAPPY NEW YEAR!! (by XuCanHao on 2005-02-08 01:49:19 GMT from China)
42 • vim contrib (by Ricky on 2005-02-08 02:14:31 GMT from Canada)
Great choice for this month contrib. I love vim! Keep up the good work.
43 • People talking shi* about ladislav (by Kensai on 2005-02-08 02:28:31 GMT from Puerto Rico)
I'm with Ladislav in what he said about solaris and about Mandrake. Mandrake isn't free any more and it isn't even stable anymore 10.1 official was unusable in my system. I wonder how people still defend that stupid unstable mandrake. But everyone can use what they want and if you like mandrake keep using it ;). But for me Viva Gentoo!!!!
44 • Slackware 10.1 release! (by koyi on 2005-02-08 02:33:09 GMT from Japan)
I have been waiting for this release for a week and it is finally out! Downloading via torrent and will try it out tonight.
And yeah, happy Chinese New Year to you, too!
(Did you copy-and-paste this or you really understand chinese? :P)
45 • Ubuntu, Debian, Mepis... (by w00t on 2005-02-08 02:44:05 GMT from United States)
1. Tried about 25 distro's over the last 2 years.
2. Settled on Mepis
3. Gave Ubuntu a try about 4 months ago for a good month
4. Went back to Mepis because it's better - donated to their cause
end of story...
46 • w00t on MEPIS (by Gnobian_Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 02:53:50 GMT from United States)
I'm glad you enjoy MEPIS. Many people do. I certainly agree it's a well put together distro, which is why I've suggested it as an alternative to Ubuntu to those for whom I've offerred to install GNU/Linux.
Is your preference a KDE vs. GNOME thing or have you other reasons, just out of curiosity?
Personally, I couldn't donate to a proprietary project that benefits from the work of Debian but is unwilling to contribute its own improvements back to the Debian community - but that's just me.
47 • Solaris 10 comments (by snorkel on 2005-02-08 03:03:10 GMT from United States)
I tried to install it on a athlon xp 1800 and it took forever to install, it was painfully slow and I ended up rebooting the PC, I then installed the ubuntu hoary array 4 and that is what I am sticking with.
I think solaris 10 kind of stinks.
48 • bravo! (by mrgreen on 2005-02-08 03:16:33 GMT from United States)
Bravo Ladislav!!!! Your comments are right on about Mandrake, and I applaud that you actually have the balls to say anything about it. This is your site, you have the right, and the platform. If people don't like it, I suppose you can ban them from accessing your site! HAHA! Just kidding...
But honestly, keep it up with the civilized opinions concerning the linux community. There isn't much of it at all...people are either don't care, or have no brain capacity for intelligent commentary...like on slashdot. Thanks Ladislav for your good work.
49 • Additional tips for abear (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 03:29:15 GMT from United States)
I did some research on that Marillat issue to which I previously referred and it has been addressed at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RestrictedFormats
"In late November 2004, the debian-marillat repository's packages were rebuilt against newer packages that aren't available in Warty. Updated mplayer packages may be retrieved by adding the following repository in addition to debian-marillat:
Section(s): (leave blank)"
I thought I'd pass this on for you and anyone else interested.
50 • Happy Chinese New Year Too (by Small Potato on 2005-02-08 03:35:54 GMT from Hong Kong)
It is amazing to see Chinese characters appear in DistroWatch. 新年快樂，恭喜發財！
51 • Mandrake (by jmirles on 2005-02-08 03:36:45 GMT from United States)
Mandrake is still free. You do not have to be a club member to download it from their site. They have stated many times that it will remain free. You buy to help the cause and to be able to provide feedback on the direction you would like to see Mandrake follow.
Mepis is fantastic. Warren's enchancements has made Debian a clear winner in the distro wars. If he choses to keep part of HIS work closed source, in morder to set his distro apart from others, then what is the problem? He purchased the QT license to do so.
Ubuntu is also fantatsic. It is certainly the best distro out there for Gnome lovers. I mean Gnome has never looked better than in this distro.
Personally, I feel that it is a KDE vs Gnome thing with Mepis and Ubuntu. Which is fine if you like either one. Not being tied to either, I don't see the need for the war.
Now if someone would make a lightweight Mepis-Ubuntu like distro that could serve as a live cd and be installed but based on IceWM or Fluxbox or XFCE (like the cool ones in Vector Linux 4.3), that would be a hell of a distro!
52 • The Perfect Linux (by William Roddy on 2005-02-08 03:37:00 GMT from United States)
Are we complimenting or criticizing cars because they have a cup holder or don't have a hood ornament, while what's under the hood is the same?
Are we worshiping the sun by looking at our shadows, because we can't look directly at the sun? How will we ever see the truth?
Are we expressing our love for what we have by shouting angry words at others? How will we understand love if our actions cause none to come back to us?
Are we shooting the messenger so often, we might eventually kill him and no longer receive the messages he once brought?
Are we viewing beautiful, original works of art, and wondering how long it will take the paint to fade from the canvas or the marble to crumble?
Are we so inflated by hubris, we tell the Universe how to unfold? (See Desiderata)
Some people who write to this forum are stupid. Others contribute useful ideas, the polar opposite of being stupid. Stupid people start wars because they are powerless, burn down homes because they can't imagine warmth, and assassinate character because they are inept at debate.
While Linux is being perfected, and while we watch its progress, perhaps it's time for us to acknowledge the presence of the minority of stupidity that has become its camp-follower, but only do so to ourselves, because adding fuel to these flames causes innocents to be tortured, and because those who need to reflect upon this news aren't listening still. In fact, they never will. (See Don McLean, 'Vincent')
Ladislav, courage. You are a proven, trusted friend and we need you. It is difficult to be a good person. That is why there are so few of them.
Please forgive a sick old man who once believe deeply that, by the year 2005, knowledge and reason would cause people to be kinder to each other, but who now sees this hope fading.
53 • reply to jmirles (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 03:52:04 GMT from United States)
There is absolutely nothing "wrong" with Warren's decision to keep his own work closed. He appears to be in conformance with both the GPL and Trolltech's dual license. And the software itself is useful and well-designed. More power to him.
(The hissy-fit he threw in the forums when he swore of doing GPL work was a bit embarassing to see though, but we're all human and I am sure he's under tremendous pressure maintaining a distro largely on his own.)
I however have a personal preference whenever possible to use and support Free (as in speech) software. So I choose not to support MEPIS. Others don't share my preference and that's fine. No flame-bait intended here.
Likewise, I happen to find GNOME more pleasant to use and prefer its license to KDE's, but again preferences vary. (And KDE does have a few apps that GNOME lacks and better development tools.)
Incidentally, I sometimes run XFCE4 on Ubuntu. Very nice. And for those wanting something very lightweight, apparently XFCE4 is the one alternative to GNOME that seems to work properly with the very stripped down kernel used in BeatrIX.
54 • RE: Mandrake is still free (by ladislav on 2005-02-08 04:05:19 GMT from Taiwan)
I didn't say Mandrake wasn't free. But unless you are blindly devoted to the company or completely new to Linux, you would have noticed by now that it is a lot less free than it used to be.
Take the x86_64 edition of Mandrakelinux 10.1. It was officially announced and went on sale on 10 Nov 2004, but the ISO images were only made available to Silver-level Club members 6 weeks later - just before Christmas. And if you are not a Club member, you would have to pay €120 (which is over US$150 these days) + shipping to get it. How is that "free"? And don't even tell me about the FTP edition - I have on record an email from Mandrakesoft's PR department claiming that the FTP edition is just a "half-baked, unofficial product".
So much for Mandrakelinux being free. In fact, I could argue that SUSE is more free, since you can download the latest SUSE's x86_64 ISO images (or their official FTP edition) at no cost at all.
55 • apoligies for my comments (by Alan Moser on 2005-02-08 05:04:11 GMT from United States)
Sorry for the use of my language before, I just finally snaped at people who write things on websites just to start an argument. The readers of Distro watch have my apoligies. On the other hand I would like to give my reasons for using Ubuntu. Yes I have tried alot of distros (including Xandros, Yoper, Suse, Fedora, Mandrake, Mempis and Gentoo). I used to be a KDE fan but Ubuntu changed that
1. Uncluterd, this has to do more with the D.E. (Gnome), I am more productive in Ubuntu then any other distro. (reason for not using Mandrake)
2. Ease of use- While I think that Xandros & Suse has the best ease of use, I felt restrected.
3. Stabilty - This is a big reason why I use Ubuntu (linux for that matter), things don't lockup, or quit out of the blue. (this is one of the reasons why I don't use Yoper).
4. Very lean system - Ubuntu is a very lean system by default, sure you could remove stuff from Fedora and Suse, but I don't have the time to do that.
5. Lack of time - this really has to do with one distro, you guys should of guessed it, I can not stand the long compile time with Gentoo.
6. Community - Most people would argue with me that Gentoo has the best communty, Gentoo does have a good community, so does Yoper (Has a very personal feeling to it). But I never felt right in those communties, but I felt at home in the Ubuntu communty.
P.S. I think that KDE has better intergation then GNOME, but I like the simplicity of GNOME of KDE.
56 • Guh, here we go again.... (by Life on 2005-02-08 05:05:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
First of all to everyone I apologise for stirring things here, but some things need to be said.
Realistic Bastards... don't you have anything better to do? Everytime I see your nickname here you are having a jab at Ladislav - sometimes because you don't agree with his opinion(s), and sometimes it looks like you are doing it just for the sake of it.
If you don't like or agree with Ladislav's opinions on these matters, why in the hell do you waste your time coming back to read them every week? It's obvious that a great deal of time and effort goes into keeping DW running and updated, and providing the users with decent DW weekly articles is also no mean feat. You appear here every week slamming it and moaning about trivial matters and opinions, why don't you go and create your own site with the level of depth and commitment DistroWatch has so we can all come around and bitch at your efforts every week?
If nothing else it would give you something constructive to do so we don't have to listen to your crap on a regular basis.
"This only means more money for Ladislav...."
Oh no, Ladislav has a revenue stream. Crime of the century. Look, he provides this site and all its content free of charge to the users, who cares if he procures some money on advertising revenue in the mean time? You try hosting a site with this amount of traffic and creating large amounts of fresh content regularly and see if you can do it on a budget of $0.00. Not only that, but he provides regular donations to Open Source efforts, which is a damn sight more than alot of sites ever even think of doing. It's funny to see this whining about finances from a Mandrake troll, who as pointed out above, charge their users for alot of services they provide (when Ladislav does not), have their own Advertising scheme, and also trade on the stockmarket! Sound hypocritical to you?
"Dont worry Bro we will have the last laugh."
This is not some kind of epic battle. It's a site about Linux distributions, which at the end of the day, aren't hugely different from one another. They all come with similar applications, the same kernel, the same libraries. The only difference is in administration tools, installers, packaging systems, minor choices and user communities. You seem particularly put out because Ubuntu briefly topped Mandrake in the popularity stakes here, but what does it matter to you? If you, as you so often put it, know that Mandrake is by far the best piece of software ever to be slapped on a few CD's, then why do you care? You are just another link in the chain fighting against the Linux community when you should be working with it against proprietary and costly closed source soloutions. This leads me to believe you don't give a crap about Open Source, Linux or freedom of software, and are just in the whole thing to toot your own horn. "My distro has a bigger **** than yours, ner ner". Grow up.
Enjoy the site or leave dude. Don't sit here complaining to everyone else about the injustice of it all and how everyone should be using Mandrake, people will make up their own minds on personal usage and not because you constantly tell them otherwise. I personally prefer Gentoo, Debian and Slackware over Mandrake, I guess that makes me "wrong" as well?
Anyway Ladislav - the majority of us really appreciate your hard work. Well done on another great issue.
57 • Agreed (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 05:13:26 GMT from United States)
I wanted to second Life's remarks: I very much appreciate your work Ladislav and the service you provide by informing new and experienced users alike about the world of Free/Open Source software.
58 • RE: Guh, here we go again... (by ladislav on 2005-02-08 05:19:53 GMT from Taiwan)
Realistic Bastards... don't you have anything better to do?
Ah, let him be. I actually find his comments hilarious. Just ignore him and maybe he will go away and find another forum to spice up with his words of wisdom. If not, then just have a good laugh. Don't bother to reply to his messages.
59 • Some Info On Ubuntu (by Rizal Osman on 2005-02-08 05:22:44 GMT from Malaysia)
1. Ubuntu Backed by Canonical Ltd (South Africa)
2. Canonical Owned by Mark Shuttleworth
3. Last Century, Mark sold his Thawte Certificate company to Verisign for US 575 Million.
4. Mark used to code for Debian in early & mid 90s
5. In several interviews, Mark has shown to be someone who perfectly understand Free Software - FOSS/OSS
6. Mark has over 40 staff on his Ubuntu payroll, These includes some of the best brains from Gnome, Debian & OSS evangelist.
7. The release cycle is every 6 month. i.e. "Stable" Ubuntu release from Debian "Sid".
8. If U look at warty/hoary (Ubuntu) packages, U will see tons of softwares with "ubuntu" extension, meaning it has been optimes for Ubuntu
9. No other companies has ever got the budget to ship 10 copies of their software to anybody requested them (all over the world). Only Ubuntu/Mark Shuttleworth does.
10. And then the old benefit of Apt-get, 1 disc installation, liveCD, good forum, good www.ubuntuguide.org etc.
I expect one day Ubuntu will combine Installation CD with the Live CD (like MEPIS), hence putting an end to Gnoppix project.
60 • next month donation (by snoop on 2005-02-08 05:24:23 GMT from Canada)
first post ;-) thank you so much for this great site
I use Arch for workstations & Tiny Sofa 2.0 for servers
Two great products with excellent supports
Just an idea for your next month donation
61 • Class... (by Torque2K on 2005-02-08 05:35:43 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, thank you for showing everyone how to be a class act. You consistently put up a good site, good weekly reads, and even when you have an opinion it is tempered and logical. No hissy-fits, no name-calling. We should all have this amount of... grace? or class...
On Vim, your comment:
"Have you ever watched somebody who is thouroughly familiar with vi or vim typing a document? That finger dancing on the keyboard is truly spectacular!"
I have worked with a few sysadmins and programmers who swore by vi, and after sitting and watching their work, I know why. No matter what system you're asked to sit down at, be it Solaris, Linux, OS X, AIX, or HPUX, you'll find a friend waiting in vi. When it's used for good (not evil), it's powers are infinite! Couple that with years of pounding out scripts in tcsh, bash, sed and awk, and the professionals are a blast to watch. This comment definitely has me putting aside nano for a little while... Vim, here I come! ;)
62 • Why I love Linux (by William Roddy on 2005-02-08 06:35:13 GMT from United States)
I'm on a fix income, so Linux gives me an opportunity to have the latest technology for free, and to be able to use it on older machines.
It's meaningful to me, but just think how much more meaningful Liniux would be to children throughout the world who can afford nothing at all.
Here's an article, from the BBC today, of a project that really makes Linux mean something more than just debates about who's best.
I hope you enjoy the concept, and I know many of you are working on other outstanding ideas, and you should be thanked more often. Every little bit of support free software gets means more children will be able to reach out to a world once far beyond even their dreams.
For them, Linux will not be a dream; it will be a small miracle.
63 • Hats' Off to Gnobian Ken00bie (by abear on 2005-02-08 06:35:57 GMT from Canada)
Thank-you for your kind words and insightful answers and comments. The information was right on and encouraging enough that Ubuntu will be the target install on one system for testing next week.
If I've got it right then for the most part Marillat sources are at most, a minor source of synchronization irritation for Ubuntu users. So lets say, if Mplayer which is popular for browser plugins, was installed from Marillat when their sources are in sync with Ubuntu/Debian sources, it could then only upgraded at some future point in time when the repositories are again in sync? Seems like a petty trade-off that may be resolved in the future given the popularity of Ubuntu. Yet how frequent the synch-ing between the Sources occurs is a question that readily comes to mind...
Anyway thanks for the info, and for my part kudos to DistroWatch, a most informative Linux resource!
64 • Miscellany (by Ed Borasky on 2005-02-08 06:59:11 GMT from United States)
Re; Ubuntu and Gnoppix ... it looks very much to me like Gnoppix and Ubuntu are "merging". Can someone confirm or deny that?
Re: Vim ... I've been a vi user for over 20 years. Back then, EMacs was so bloated, vi was the only usable editor. Once Vim/GVim were ported to Windows, I was totally hooked.
Re: Next month's donation ... I'm going to nominate Dirk Eddelbuettel's Quantian LiveDVD. It's essentially a supercomputer on a disk -- boot it up on a collection of networked computers and you have a cluster of scientific workstations with something like 5 GB of mathematical and scientific software.
Re: upcoming releases ... you left out Gentoo 2005.0. I'm not sure quite where they are, but the release should be this month. Any bets on when "sarge" will release? :)
Re: Mandrake and SuSE ... the only two major distros I've never touched.
65 • Ubuntu & Gnoppix (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 07:50:30 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu's live CD project has been merged with Ubuntu since just prior to Warty's release. The Gnoppix release just prior to that already had Ubuntu themes available as they were making the shift. However, in their original announcement, the Gnoppix developers said that they were merging the projects for the time being, so long as their aims remained compatible. Gnoppix is also planning on developing GNOME specific live CDs that will differ from Ubuntu, e.g. by using Abiword, Gnumeric, and Epiphany instead of OpenOffice.org and Firefox, for GNOME developers to use as demos. How these goals and the work with Ubuntu will coexist is unclear. But they have made the shift to using a Debian installer based live CD instead of one based on Morphix or Knoppix, so there's definitely alignment.
66 • Ignore this Ladislav said so ... (by Realistic Bastards on 2005-02-08 07:52:19 GMT from Canada)
The same question arise over and over dont I have something better to do with my time , the answer is yes , nothing would please me more then to come by the site as I did in the past read the editorials and Ladislav personnal comment and be on my way. Whats changed is that Ladislav mix is personnal comments inside the Editorials , and he dont do some real research on the subject he discuss and everything this days is something about what Mandrake is doing wrong.
Does Ladislav put out the site by himself ? Big news for you the answer is definately : NO
Albanian - Albert Hyseni, Florian Mishaxhi
Arabic - Ossama Khayat
Chinese Simplified - Zhu Wen Tao
Chinese Traditional - Hsieh Yung Hsin
Bosnian - Dino Fahrudin Avdibegovic
Croatian - Dominko Aždajić
Czech - Misu
Danish - Francois Thunus, Jens H. Kruuse
Dutch - Eric Roosendaal
Finnish - Pasi Ruhanen
French - Patrick Legault, David Sibai
German - Silvio Costa, Thomas Blechinger
Greek - Kostas Tsakaloglou
Hebrew - Offer Kaye
Hungarian - Christian Hamar
Indonesian - Ronald Kuwawi
Italian - Luigi Maselli
Japanese - Daisuke Suzuki (Project Vine and Japan Linux Association)
Korean - Thomas Chung (LinuxInstall.org), Yeuri, Jong Woong Lee
Lithuanian - Andrius Kurtinaitis
Polish - Stanislaw
Portuguese - Oliver Zancul Prado, Luis Fonseca Carvalho De Matos
Romanian - Florin Veres, Ghita "Zamo" Serban (Team 1337)
Russian - Michael Shigorin (Alt Linux)
Serbian - Andrej Lukács
Slovak - Misu
Spanish - adrian15
Swedish - Per Lindström
Thai - Narachai Sakorn
Turkish - VahapDEMiR
Vietnamese - Trinh Minh Thanh
I am whilling to bet my house on this that they also contribute in news gathering and that he as outside help , both from the distribution PR group and the Fan from the many distribution he reports on.
Also some of the stuff you read in the past whas some of my contribution as anonymous.
Do I have my own website ? Yes ... Do I whant you and people like you on it ? No . Some of you are on it anyway.
Do I contribute to many other website ? Yes . Do I comment on every website I read ? No , I am even Ban for my comment on 2 website ( one very small website Gnu/linux related the others for Americans only wich Etats-Unians dont agree that Canadian are Americans , even do we where there first and discovered( rediscovered if you ask the American Indians) ). ( And I am not really Ban I just dont post there anymore )
The thing which you consider trivial are actually quite important , when for example Ladislav report That Slackware is a big group many people think , "hey its a big group they dont need my money , contribution or help" , Because contrary to popular belief what Ladislav put out is considered as 100% accurate and as fact. I know , I face it everyday even do I provide many official link to the contrary. Because unlike him I spoke of what I know of and do my research and ask real questions.
Am I jealous of Ladislav ? Of course he as better looking glass then mine , as is entire budget for himself and a staff of volunteer and contributor anyone would wish and die to have.
What I dont like is that with all the above he still dont do a professional job.
He , personnaly , actually dont provide the content ( he gather it from other source or as it provided to him most of the time) , and he dont have a budget of 0.00$.,
Does he contribute money to open source project ? Probably , is the Distrowatch donation is money , Yes and No , Yes thats is money he owns Ditrowatch after all and everyone wish everyone would do it too but the income he as is provided by is sponsors which pay him for the people like you and me who visit is site ...
Now you called me a troll which I am not I dont discuss the bikini of the girl I saw on the beach or the inch size of the car tire I saw at the expo not long ago , I discuss Gnu/Linux on a Gnu/Linux website.
Now I whont make the mistake of comparing the #1 Gnu/linux distribution which is giving out many Distribution each year in many form on many platform for free as in no cost when they feel ready to do so , who also offer many free website available to all and who contribute to paid devellopper to build the software which are used by the other distribution discussed here ... Ladislav and Distrowatch are Gnu/Linux contributor but your comparing Superman to Lois ,,,
The question I should ask is can Ladislav pay the salary for one ful year for one devlopper ( around 50 000 USD ? ) , if its a translator ( 250 000$ according to some ?) The Answer is no.
Actually whats hypocritical is that you discuss things but dont know the full story , or even interested in it , but you surely do think your right about repeating it over and over and over even do part of it is based on FUD and Bashing.
Now I am not saying that Mandrake did not make an IPO , But why are you asking Mandrake to give everything for free when there IPO ( wich is a Failure for a Gnu/linux company BTW ) only gave them 5 million when Red Hat as 3.2 Billion in the bank ?
No Mandrake dont have an Advertising scheme , there is an advertisement program in place but they cant really have Xandros , Yoper and all the other who contribute here do they ? And a not so big secret , there really bad at it ...
Yes , Mandrake charge for there service , and its not cheap either but is it the only entry point to getting Mandrake , the answer as always is no ... When Ladislav decide to offer the same service then we will compare both ...
Actually you must have missed it but its not about Gnu/linux only anymore there some BSD and Solaris ...
For me its an epic Battle , mainly because I do the work that Ladislav dont touch , Promoting and selling Gnu/Linux solution is a lot harder then reporting on it.
I dont think the Distribution are all the same or equal , but thats because I do install on a daily basis , I read changelogs and I see that a line of code can be really important when its missing ...
No I am not put out by Ubuntu behing #1 here , I am put out by the comment Ladislav made in connexion with it and I am put out that Google report many of there community site asking there user to come here ... when other distribution did so in the past he add them put on hold for sometime ... I find it strange that there are special rules for Ubuntu.
I am not fighting the Gnu/linux Community , and no the way to go is not to harass the proprietary solution and closed source ones. The free software foundation is there for that , no as a Gnu/Linux user my job is to ask politely that there program first be made to run on Mandrake-Linux in an open way so that eventualy it can be installed on all other Gnu/linux distribution.
Yes , I DONT believe in Open Soure and I think its crap ( noble idea which is perverted by many , Microsoft is doing open source this days ... ) , I dont believe in BSD or Solaris Open source either. 20 years in the IT business in every camp give me the advantage of knowing why.
I believe in GNU/Linux do , its better and its winning.
As Ladislav said Ignore what I say and laugh it up , thats why it ends up in his editorial and he seems to really have a go at Mandrake this days ...
I will also point out that this very idiot recommanded That Ladislav be hired at MandrakeSoft ( about the same time he left linpus ) , but due to lack of fund at the time and due to the fact that Ladislav cant be really that important he whas not considered ... They probably eat there short about that now ...
Oh yes and Moulinneuf is quite pissed about your reference to MandrakeForum and Deno , the word beating the crap out of you in person and suing your site and your ass into the ground where prononced , please dont remove your innacurate comment based on those tow point the lawyer actually like that part ...
Hey Lad , why dont you have a real go at MandrakeSoft real problem for once , then I will stop laughing real hard at your comment and give you back the respect you lost.
Oh yes and judging by the p-h-d the majority dont reply in visible comments ...
- I am an Ewok *litlle Ewok dance * ...
67 • To: abear and Ed Borasky (by William Roddy on 2005-02-08 08:13:22 GMT from United States)
Gnoppix next release in even called Hoary and their repositories are Ubuntu, though themes, to this point, have been different. BeatrIX also used only Ubuntu repository (Multiverse). Guardalinex (Spanish) will now be based on Ubuntu.
I installed MPlayer, et al, on Ubuntu, but wasn't quite able to get it tweaked for DVDs, the way I wanted, so I installed Xine and its components, along with appropriate codecs, and use it, with no problems.
I have followed the daily updates of Ubuntu Warty and now Hoary without fail and have never had a problem. It's nice to get everything, without having to reinstall. You just follow the updates. I've done the same with MEPIS and it is also virtually problem-free.
I also try every Linux distribution I can and either of these two are best for me, because I tire easily and, though I wish I had the youth and energy to follow the fascinating journies of Slackware, Gentoo, and others. I just can't. And, I have missed other distributions that may offer big surprised. However, I no longer miss SuSE, Mandrake, Red Hat, or Fedora, Xandros, or Lycoris. SuSE costs too much, Fermi Labs Scientific Linux beats Red Hat, Fedora Core can't do what Ubuntu (Gnome), or MEPIS can do, quicker and easier. Debian Sid is better than Xandros, and Windows is better than Lycoris.
(I have paid for and frequently been disappointed by, SuSE, Mandrake, and Red Hat, through every incarnation for the past six years, and I've had the same experiences with Lycoris and Xandros, over a shorter term. Ironically, I've spent a LOT of money trying to support Linux.)
It took me a while to "get" the free software ideal, but now I try to stand by it.
Debian (and I suspect, Gentoo and Slackware) are in a family of their own, with Slackware being the grandparent, Debian being the wise and thrify parents, and Gentoo being the brilliant child.
I would love to try FreeBSD, just I'm afraid I might not have the background and the energy to get into it and still be able to do other things that please me.
The one omission in the discussions that is relevant is whether or not the most recent versions of each distribution is being used, for the sake of comparison. I've found that one week, one day even, can turn a sour problem into sweet success with many of the distributions.
Watching Linux bloom is like watching a garden of flowers grow and become more beautiful each day. It's much better than watching Windows just die.
68 • vote for VIM feature (by Klavs Klavsen on 2005-02-08 08:20:50 GMT from Denmark)
Just wanted to give a vote for the VIM Shell feature (in a split window), as the current Shell addons, don't work too well :(
I am really missing the ability to have the INSTALL, patch.rej etc. file above and be able to simply jump between that and a shell in the lower part of the window and cut'n'paste the VIM way (don't want to be forced to use a mouse to cut'n'paste).
Thanks for a great site, and I hope that those people disagreeing with Ladislav's utterings on different topics, write an article about it and submit it to DW - if ladislav won't include it - you can give a link to it in the comments and let the visitors of DW judge :)
69 • Thoughts on "new distros" (by billy on 2005-02-08 08:36:55 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu (separate LIVE and HD install cds): I had much better luck with Ubuntu PPC than x86, to my surprise. PPC has been running like a champ on an iMac that wouldn't run XFree ati drivers or play sounds under Debian sarge (to be honest, I didn't care since sarge with kernel 2.6.7 installed after repeated failures with Mandrake 9.1 in both text and graphical mode). It just kills OS 9.x in every department: speed, software selection, stability. My only two complaints: it forgot to hdparm my DVD-ROM drive (easy to fix by hand and then, no more choppy playback), and it's the victim of Macromedia's failure to release a flash plugin for this architecture. On my PC's I had more mixed luck. It installed perfectly and ran great on my old laptop for about a month and then started crashing (as Debian sid never did and Slack never does) even though my apt sources were very much vanilla. The default desktop was nearly perfect. That was from a burned .iso. Now out of a batch of CDs from Ubuntu (free) three had read errors on a newer desktop computer with a good CD-ROM drive. When the fourth installed but wouldn't configure X on nvidia, I put Deb sid on that box. With the bugs worked out, Ubuntu is going to rock. I'm waiting.
MEPIS: A nice live CD as of 2004.06. Hard disk install is very easy, although it might be nice to have more options available for advanced users. HD-installer in my experience works most of the time. For this user base, maybe it's time to ditch the 2.4 kernel and work on providing i686 (ok, ok, I know it's 586tsc) and especially SMP versions of the 2.6 kernel.
Knoppix: Not new, but 'newer' and a pioneer. In my experience, nearly bulletproof installation to hard disk although the Live-CDs don't really advertise the installer and few options are readily presented. Hardware detection is excellent although often configures XFree with extremely conservative settings. Major improvements over the last year in network card detection on laptops. This is the kind of distro where users probably benefit from having both 2.4 and 2.6 kernels. Like MEPIS, Knoppix needs to make some decisions about how Debian-based the distro is going to be. While both distros include software that isn't Debian, for instance, both are still hanging back with Xfree 4.3xx. Debian with umpteen architectures has a reason not to jump over to xorg; these guys just don't. BTW, neither of these likes SIS video cards (but then I don't either).
PCLINUXOS (LIVE/HD): Like Mandrake, sometimes forgets to detect network cards on older PCMCIA's without forcing module loading. Solid distro otherwise; good software selection (though Debian + marillat is unbeatable) and easy hard disk install. Feels fast from CD-ROM. Better than adequate performance from hard disk. You gotta love a Mandrake-based project that does to Mandrake what Mandrake did to Red Hat years ago: takes their premise and shows them how it's done.
BLAG (HD): You must think I'm nuts. BLAG consistently turns out a stable and relatively quick (although rarely cutting-edge) RH/Fedora-based distro on one CD. Anaconda installer. This distro is rarely phazed by crappy hardware--in fact, ran better on a beat-to-hell, long-ago-overclocked-to-hell SIS-chipset K6-2 machine than Slack or Slack derivatives. For boxes like that, throw out your old RH and use this instead. Artwork is kind of funky but I sort of like it. Blokes, I'm sorry about the U.S. government as we all are, but you still need to release a new version!
YOPER (HD): As fast as they say, with stripped and prelinked i686 binaries. Desktop is helpfully laid-out although the fit and finish of the distro is sometimes not "up to speed." Error messages like /proc/bootsplash (?) shouldn't persist from version to version! One install on my laptop had a broken Mozilla. No update came. I was happy to have a prelinked, KDE-integrated Openoffice. While I was using Konqueror/Kmail I was happy with Konqueror, but this version of Kmail (in KDE 3.3.0) was a joke: nice features and great to look at, but one crash after another. Also kept losing dhcp on my laptop while using wireless, requiring removal of eth0.pid and new start of dhcpcd eth0; no such problem with other distros. Very solid on desktop machines, though. You'll need another Ghostscript if you use a Brother laser printer.
70 • Re: Ubuntu's popularity (by Ariszló on 2005-02-08 08:43:33 GMT from Hungary)
Dexter Ang wrote: "1. Fast. It's not as fast as Gentoo, but it beats the hell out of Fedora."
You must have a huge amount of RAM if you find Ubuntu fast. Try to install it on a machine with 128 MB of RAM and then compare Ubuntu with distributions like Slackware, Arch Linux, Yoper, Specifix or CCux. Beating the hell out of Fedora is not a big feat.
71 • 新年快樂! (by Utumno on 2005-02-08 08:56:05 GMT from Taiwan)
Happy new year to everyone!
72 • Lunar New Year Greetings from Singapore (by Ethan on 2005-02-08 09:08:11 GMT from Indonesia)
73 • Re: Ubuntu's popularity (by Ariszló on 2005-02-08 09:30:32 GMT from Hungary)
Dexter Ang wrote: "1. Fast. It's not as fast as Gentoo, but it beats the hell out of Fedora."
You must have a huge amount of RAM if you find Ubuntu fast. Try to install it on a machine with 128 MB of RAM and then compare Ubuntu with distributions like Slackware, Arch Linux, Yoper, Specifix or CCux. Beating the hell out of Fedora is not a big feat.
74 • abear follow-up (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 09:56:51 GMT from United States)
Thank you. I'm glad to be able to help and I hope you enjoy Ubuntu as much as my friends, family, and I have.
You've got the gist of it. But it's probably going to be further improved now that there's an alternative source for some of the Marillat packages and Mplayer has been moved to Multiverse in the next release, hoary. That will make keeping thngs in sync that much easier. Also they're working on putting together a team to provide support for packages in Universe, so things should be steadily improving.
75 • A (hopefully) quick laugh. (by Anonymous on 2005-02-08 10:01:27 GMT from United States)
"Raise your hands: how many of you, when launched vi or vim for the first time, had to log into another virtual terminal and kill it, because you didn't know how to close it properly? What? You didn't think of pressing Shift and colon keys simultaneously, then hitting the "Q" key??"
To be honest, I didn't even kill it, it's still running. 4 years of uptime because I didn't know how to kill it or use ":q!". Now I can finally use the machine for something else.
PS: ctrl+f2 didn't occur to me either.
76 • Mandrake & Ubuntu (by Penguin on 2005-02-08 10:30:11 GMT from Finland)
Maybe Ladislav was a bit too hard on Mandrake in his comments - or then again, maybe not.
Anyway, the issue that has bothered me most with Mandrake is that almost any new MDK release tend to be so buggy, also when compared to many other similar distros.
Let's face it, though Mandrake tries its best and is not a bad distro at all overall, it does have a slight credibility problem. It may even have a reputation of being a toy distro for newbies mostly. Why? Could there be some real reason for this and not just that some hackers want to be l33t and not use a newbiefriendly distro like Mandrake, like some Mandrake converts say?
There's a reason why NASA chose to use Debian on a space mission experiment, not Mandrake. (Hey, could someone really belive that NASA could ever(?) use Mandrake...?) There's a reason why computer science labs usually choose some other distro than Mandrake if they want to use Linux: maybe Debian or some derivative like Ubuntu, or Gentoo, Fedora/Redhat, Slackware or SUSE.
It seems that Mandrake and its users want every new Mandrake version to have the latests bleeding edge versions of almost all software, whether they work well or not. Maybe they are not so much interested in serious work, just toying around with Linux, and want to look l33t and show their pals how their distro has all the latest and greatest gadgets, so the bugs don't bother them? If Mandrake is so darn easy to use, why are its user forums full of users desperatly trying to find solutions to various problems that they have with Mandrake? Though Mandrake's urpmi is quite nice pcakage tool, it doesn't always work very reliably, and also Mandrake still suffers from the same old dreaded RPM hell problem (compare that to the reliable Debian/Ubuntu package management). Also, the user interface dialog translations to other languages in Mandrake are often just horrible, very unprofessional (why bother at all if you cannot have a valid translation?). Etc.
Actually I don't see much advantage in Mandrake over MS Windows. The interface is smilar, though Windows has a better one, both are buggy, though Windows has less bugs, both are bloated, though MS Windows is much less bloated etc. I'm also afraid that there may be quite a few people who have tried Linux, namely Mandrake ('cause it has for years been touted as the newbie and commercial grade friendly and easy to use distro), maybe also paid for it, but were not impressed, and have gone back to using MS Windows or Macs.
Personally I don't care for bleeding edge, or having a very Windows like interface either (and if I want to install some newer versions of particular software, I always can anyway). I want stability, reliability and security. Ok, Mandrake does try to play that game too, with the big boys, but not well enough in my opinion. They try to please everyone, also those kids who are just toying with Linux occasionally, want to have this and that though hardly knowing why, and don't care for reliability.
If Mandrake is so darn good, why ain't everybody and your ma already using it? Well, because it just isn't. That's why almost in any user forum of other Linux distributions you find former and disappointed Mandrake users. Just read for yourself, for example here: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=8686
As to Ubuntu, it's a relatively new one (though mostly just plain Debian + Gnome) and naturally they also have their share of problems, but I must say that the whole concept and goals seem much more professional, in reality, than what I can say about Mandrake. Ubuntu doesn't want to please everyone and your grandma but they have clear goals and a mission that they aim at, it may not please everyone always, but you can count that the distro works relatively reliably.
77 • Solaris listing (by Anthony on 2005-02-08 13:38:47 GMT from Canada)
I don't agree that Solaris should be listed until it is truely available as open source. Currently it isn't. You might as well list Mac OSX and windows as well as all the other commercial Unix versions - AIX, HP/UX etc. As they all use something that was originally opensource.
78 • Mepis has GNOME 2.8 and KDE 3.3 (by jackweed on 2005-02-08 14:13:13 GMT from United States)
Personally, I feel that it is a KDE vs Gnome thing with Mepis and Ubuntu.
ok folks this is no longer true..SimplyMepis 3.3 test 2 has KDE 3.3.2 and GNOME 2.8 so don't choose UBUNTU simply based on GNOME 2.8 because both distros have it by default.
Also Xfce 4.2 is easy to get working in Simply Mepis
vi /etc/apt/sources.list (add the following two lines)
deb http://www.os-works.com/debian testing main
deb-src http://www.os-works.com/debian testing main
apt-get install -t testing xfld-desktop
CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE and choose XFCE 4.2..done.
79 • Ubuntu v. Mandrake (by GWJ Mateo on 2005-02-08 14:51:51 GMT from United States)
I don't see the reason for the flame war. Ladislav is expressing his opinion (one which I happen to agree with) which is a random survey of 1. Feel free to agree or disagree.
For my part, Manadrake has always been a little too bleeding edge: there is always some "show stopper" bug that made my systems run worse than Windows ME, and that is saying something. And, it's not that I don't know how to hack the system to get it running smoothly: if I'm paying for the disks or membership, I SHOULDN"T HAVE TO. It should just work out of the box.
Ubuntu does that. Great desktop, easy to use and update, no issues.
Mepis does it too. I wish Warren got a graphic designer for the bootsplash and for the default desktop (which admittedly is a minor quibble), but other than that, it's also solid.
Since we are at it, Xandros, Slackware, and Vidalinux also get the job done quite well.
So does Gentoo, I hear (can't abide the long compile), Fedora, and 100's of others assuming you have the time and the inclination to get them running.
So chose a distro, and contribute, but keep in mind that there is no BEST distro. Just the one that is best for you.
80 • ubuntu in schools (by gogodidi on 2005-02-08 17:10:36 GMT from Norway)
am glad to see that schools also take the initiative to teach kids this sort of thing...my school still runs windows, and i'm not happy, we have five students in our class who have to share computers because they keep on breaking...
ven after new hardware arives, windwos messes it up again.
kinda ironic that ive been going to this site and mever looked at the weekily stuf,i misssed a large art of the site....
keep that down time down, use Linux!
81 • distro wars (by pmpatrick on 2005-02-08 17:41:31 GMT from United States)
I thought this was distrowatch not distro wars. Does anyone really need another thread of immature posts touting the poster's favorite distro and slamming every other distro and anyone that disagrees with him?
OK. I'll through in my two cents. To all those that have entered posts to the effect that distro xyz sucks and is unstable but distro abc which I use is great, I assume these insightful comments are based on the one or two boxes that you have at your disposal, a truly awesome hardware sample.
Let me give you my experience based upon my equally limited hardware sample, mdk10.1-everything worked out of the box; ubuntu-sound problems, requiring some heavy hacking to get working; gentoo- two days of compiling and configuring only to wind up with a system slower that red hat 8.0, the update feature renedered the system unbootable requiring the hand editing of 14 config files; mepis-couldn't find my hard drives on a pci ide controller card, this has been a chronic problem with mepis but no other distro; suse9.2-worked fine out of the box; slackware10-one of my favorites but required a lot of hand configuration, nothing runs faster than slack; kanotix(sid)-not bad, has many scripts to fix some common problems/tasks, update feature is fairly good, some problems with some opengl games even after installation of nvidia drivers.
Let me make this clear. The distros that I had problems with are not bad/unstable distros. In fact, many people have no problems with them at all. You are seeing how a set of distros react to the peculiarities of my hardware and linux skill, nothing more. Fortunately, I'm not so foolish as to believe the world revolves around me and my quirky hardware problems. Regrettably, some here apparently feel no such constraint.
Re mandrake being free or not as free as it use to be - I remember the good old days too. There were some good things back then but as I recall it all led to the bankruptcy court. Let's not romaticize the past; there were some real problems with the way that company was being run. Mandrake is plenty free enough consistent with staying in business and remains one of the most popular linux distros going.
82 • To: William Roddy (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-08 20:29:20 GMT from Italy)
I believe you remember me, we had a good exchange of private emails.
SUSE 9.2 can be had for free: the FTP-DVD iso is a good selection from the commercial DVD. Everything missing (and more) can be had from apt4rpm:
83 • Ubuntu vs MEPIS (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-08 21:49:52 GMT from United States)
Jackweed is correct. MEPIS does now include GNOME 2.8 as do many other distros. Of course, Ubuntu's development branch has 2.9 and rest assured Ubuntu will have stable GNOME 2.10 before anyone else. Still, the fact is that you can run any DE/WM you like on any Debian-based distro. (I'd assume the same is also true of rpm distros, but my personal experience with those is limited.) You can also install KDE on Ubuntu quite easily and Ubuntu is working on KDE support with the Kubuntu project.
So, it would seem that the default DE/WM is a poor basis for choosing a distro. I've expressed my own reasons for preferring Ubuntu over MEPIS - and GNOME isn't the major one. But hold on a second...
If you're running MEPIS, you have several additional configuration tools for KDE that are only available for MEPIS. And you're using a distro developed by someone who develops using the KDE platform and so has some close acquaintance with the system. If there's any support advantage here, it will be for KDE.
On the other hand, if you're running Ubuntu, you have a desktop put together and customized with the work of many developers who work for the GNOME project. And the support forums include many of those same GNOME developers able to answer your questions. It's easy enough to run KDE on Ubuntu, but the support advantage lies with GNOME here.
There's still fairly good reason to prefer one distro or the other based on one's preferred desktop. Perhaps it's not enough to be the deciding factor, but it's definitely something to consider.
84 • Solaris on Distrowatch (by Dustin Laurence on 2005-02-08 22:35:50 GMT from United States)
I would suggest that Solaris not be on DistroWatch until they have committed themselves legally to not asserting patents against open-source. Their recent "donation" doesn't mean much to any project that matters, and their attempt to make it look otherwise is just dishonest. I wouldn't mind it if they weren't here until they stop bad-mouthing the GPL and RedHat at every opportunity either, but the patent thing is just outrageous.
85 • Blah (by life on 2005-02-08 23:03:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
Look, I really don't have time to sit here and argue with all your wayward points, besides the fact that its obviously futile and Ladislav has expressed he doesn't wish to see anymore arguments, I truely and honestly believe you are just a troll, and I won't be baited any further.
One thing I will say (I only read the first paragraph of your post, I have to go to work in a few):
"Whats changed is that Ladislav mix is personnal comments inside the Editorials"
Look up the word "editorials" in the dictionary man. In fact, seeing as I'm feeling particularly generous, here's the numero uno definition of "editorial"
1) An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.
Case closed. Anyway I'm off, Ladislav, sorry for turning this DW weekly into a pile of lame arguments, I will ignore these guys in the future, it just kinda ticked me off.
86 • HAHA! (by life on 2005-02-08 23:14:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
Sorry, just noticed your legal threat to me. I have no idea what you could possibly construe in my post as an illegal act (there is nothing - don't even kid yourself, my father happens to be a public defence lawyer and he will find this hilarious), but if you feel the need to send your lawyers after myself, or my organisation, I can't stop you.
Who knows, maybe they will have your friend up for threatening ("beat the crap out of you") assault. Thanks for the public record of that by the way. Well played. ;)
Ladislav, I realise what you mean in your previous post now. This guy is funny as hell.
Anyway. Peace man, gotta run :D
87 • Back to normal business: impressed by Asp Linux (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-08 23:54:33 GMT from Italy)
Great little distro, with some minor hiccups.
Having recently moved, I have changed my internet connection from Cable to ADSL. Till now, of the many distros I tried, only SUSE and ASP have easily established an internet connection via my D-Link DSL302T modem.
Debian and every derivatives have failed so far. So did Mandrake. Of course it could be because I have no experience with ADSL.
Some minus points:
1)During install I have been asked for CD 4 and 5, which are not available for download. However I skipped them and nothing went wrong.
2)Their site is only in Russian: how would I buy the commercial version?
3) I added more packages after the install: I was asked several times to switch between CD2 and 3
4) Yum update needs to be restarted several times, it hangs.
But having said all that I love this little distro: it comes with Nvidia drivers, it seems rock solid...
Does anybody know of a site in English that sells it and does anybody know if I could use apt4rpm for FC3? Thanks.
88 • Ubuntu again! (by Robert on 2005-02-09 01:54:02 GMT from United States)
I don't know what all the hype is about. Ubuntu is nothing more than the Debian installer with some additional packages. Which in itself, isn't necessarily bad, however, the additional packages are maintained by Ubuntu themselves rather than Debian. Why would you recreate a repository when there is one that has been in operation for years and has been proven time and time again. For those of you who believe Ubuntu is compatible with Debian repositories, you should read some of the forums on Ubuntu's site. Ubuntu themselves do not recommend using Debian repositories with Ubuntu as they may break the system and indeed, I have broken a Ubuntu system doing so. Also, what happens if Ubuntu's funding falls through? Will they start charging for access in the way that Linspire and Xandros simply to maintain this independent repository? The default theme in Ubuntu is awful and it isn't as polished as it could be. And Ubuntu doesn't give enough credit to all the works they have incorporated into their software.
I have tried every Debian variant out there (Knoppix, Mepis, Libranet, Ubuntu, Progeny, etc.) and found none of them to be pure Debian. And of course, pure Debian is hard to install for all the lazy people out there. However, I'm currently testing the usability of a new system which is in development. The link is as follows:
This distribution is another polished Debian system, however, there are some differences from all the others. DebBlu is 99.9% compatible with the Debian repositories. I say 99.9% because the only way to get 100% is to install using the chroot method. So don't worry about fees to access repositories. This project will include kernel 2.6.8 and gnome 2.8 with a decent theme. It is very polished and I have yet to see issues with it. Everything I've apt'd has installed perfectly and it is using Debian repositories in its /etc/apt/sources.list file. It's similar to Ubuntu as it uses the Debian installer, but uses pure debs (there is talk about an anaconda installer for the next version also using pure debs). From what I understand, they're using seeding methods rather than recreating the pure debs which keeps compatibility at perfect. I'm currently testing the "Xtra" version of the software which comes bundled in full with Java, Flash, Crossoffice, Cedega, DVD, and more. There is even a hard-printed quick-reference guide (like 30 pages) which will be made available for newbies. I've corresponded with the project leader and he is very practical and was another frustrated user of half-ass Debian systems and decided to finally put one out there that works, is compatible with Debian repositories and one that MS Windows users can understand. He is also considering writing up a how-to for folks who have no need for a printed manual and would simply like to install pure Debian and have no need for pretty packaging. But, it's clearly targeting people who despise installing Debian and to switch over those MS Windows folks. With the combination of Crossoffice and Cedega, many MS Windows applications and games will be made available. He mentioned that he hates having to include this software since there is so much software like Openoffice and others that replace windows software and also that this software will require a higher price tag since Crossoffice and Cedega aren't free, but, he feels to make MS Windows users switch, they need to have roots to their old software. The project is also instituting a very lucrative reseller program which will consist of store fronts and sales people. I don't think the details are available yet, but there is a link on the website for anyone who might want to earn some extra bucks. The website itself looks very professional. It doesn't have a support section yet, but will once the software is released.
I honestly think this could be the Windows killer since the leader of this project is not only good at keeping things simple and usable, but has a business mind as well. I believe the project will be offering a download edition which will be scaled back and won't include a manual obviously and the non-free stuff. The standard edition will be a hard copy for people with limited bandwith and that will have a small fee for the printed material and shipping costs. And finally, the Xtra edition which will be fully loaded and obviously won't be free.
Another plus is that the DebBlu project is self-funded and no one is pulling their strings. They are committed to pushing a Debian desktop to the world. Check out their website and drop them an email. They have been incredibly friendly, honest and very open-minded. Their quick reference guide will even have a list of all the names of people's work that have been incorporated into the software. Although because of the GPL, this isn't necessary, but it's nice when people give credit when it's due. I'm hoping more people get behind this project and will help get it out to the masses.
89 • Re: Ubuntu again! (by Robert) (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-09 02:30:11 GMT from Italy)
I don't know about this "debblu" (but I am unimpressed by what I read at their website), but one thing is for sure: Libranet *is* Debian compatible. In fact it is nothing but Debian plus an easy installer and Adminmenu.
90 • Ubuntu again (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-09 02:42:56 GMT from United States)
There are some slight inconsistencies in your criticisms of Ubuntu. If Ubuntu is nothing more than the Debian installer with some additional packages, how is so much incompatibility supposed to arise?
But you're absolutely right, using Debian packages with Ubuntu is risky. That's because Ubuntu isn't simply reduplicated effort. The reason many users, including some Debian developers, use Ubuntu isn't just laziness. Ubuntu permits one to use packages far more current than Debian stable, but without the constant changes and occasional breakage of Debian unstable and with the benefit of timely security fixes, which are sadly lacking from Debian testing, thus keeping testing from providing a happy medium.
Personally, I find the Ubuntu default theme quite attractive and many others agree, but of course arguing over matters of taste is pretty pointless - though perhaps a more specific criticism or comparison might make us - and Ubuntu's developers - notice some flaw we'd missed.
As for Ubuntu's funding, I'm not worried: Shuttleworth has deep pockets and seems to have a strong commitment - but of course thing's change. We can always play "what if". What if SCO somehow succeeds in its legal attacks on Linux? What if "Trusted Computing" makes it impossible to install an OS that hasn't been certified by some central authority and what if ISPs will not allow older computers without "Trusted Computing" to connect to the net?
As for DebBlu, it sounds promising. Will they being using Debian repositories directly or will they being using a snapshot? If the latter, then all the risks of forking and incompatibility arise. If the former, then we'll see either the aged packages of stable, the ever changing and breakage prone package of unstable, or the lack of security fixes as in testing. Or do they plan to create their own security team for testing? Now THAT would be a great thing!
91 • Where is Slack headed (by GP on 2005-02-09 02:43:43 GMT from Canada)
I was chocked to learn that slackpkg, a lame upgrade which doesn't check dependencies, was chosen for Slack 10.1. Here the reflectiosn I had on aols.
> What the previous poster was stating was that some people prefer
> to live in the absence of dependency checking.
And what prevents you from *NOT* checking dependencies even if swaret is included? What's the point in including a lame tool such as slackpak when pkgtool is allready part of Slackware?
Some self-proclaimed experts trolls have claimed here that they experienced problems with swaret, but never did they point out the fundamental design flaw or coding errors.
Sooo... could it just be that The Little Man is loosing control of his
upper wheels, just like he did when he subbornly refused to reestablish the link /dev/scd0 /dev/cdrom in Slack 8.0 and 8.1 ?
But hey, the trolls say, just download Swaret if you like it. Final.
Is this any way to recognize the most important contribution ever made to Slackware? There hasn't been a new version of Swaret for one year now, and still, it has no equal. Is this denial of the effort of a major contributor any way to encourage more top people to participate to Slackware?
In the last entry to the changelog, The Little Man likes to brag about all
the contribution he receives. Still, stable 10, the version that was to be
used on servers, has gone unmaintained from November 1st to February 2nd, when 10.1 came out.
Some people say they can do the upgrades themselves, and they're absolutely right. But then, if everybody is to maintain their own distro like The Little Man does, what's the point of using Slackware in the first place? Is this what people generally expect from a distro?
The Little Man's signature on messages saying upgrades from GUS Brazil were to be trusted, just didn't check. Now, Al C, who doesn't know what a mounting point is and says he has discussions with The Little Man, offers signed messages whose's signature check OK. Whose's to be trusted?
Why don't I just move to another distro, the trolls say. Because, I think if it wasn't for The Little Man's fits, contributors would gather and Slackware would have the perfect development model. (That's why I'm using it myself.) Slackware can't easily subverted into endless debates like Debian to output a new version every 3 years.
Also, Slackware being the oldest Linux distro -- it was even used by NASA for the ISS in 1997(1) -- it was ever to fail, Linux would be portrayed as an OS supported by some "freaks" who should in no way be considered as serious ventures.
(1) The first module would finally be lauched only in November 1998, but: http://www2.linuxjournal.com/article/3024
That's why I believe that The Little Man's so-called excentricities shouldn't be accepted as idiosyncracies by self-proclaimed old-timers trolls, but described precisely to the last consequences.
92 • Mandrake & other distros, LiveCD's, (by BigLinuxandBSDFan on 2005-02-09 03:14:03 GMT from United States)
I have used Mandrake Linux-9.0,9.1,9.2,10.0,10.1(Community) and
Red Hat 9.0/Fedora Core 2/3 on some of my desktops. I have run and tested many live cd's and generally I cannot complain about any of them. My first experience with linux was not a great one. It was with lindows(now Linspire). I did not like CNR (paying for free programs is not nice) although people told me that I am paying someone to (install the packages and take care of dependencies so that programs will run without a fuss/complain). A friend suggested Mandrake Linux and it was simply great. It had all the tools that I needed, it had LaTEX, it could burn CD's, it had OpenOffice, it could play mp3's and play DVD's. I could even connect to the internet which I did not do when my computer had Windows. I was afraid of getting viruses and did not want to connect with windows(popups, trojans, spyware, adware, etc). The modem was a (winmodem). The folks at linmodems.org were very nice to me and guided me on how to install it and it was a breeze. I could connect to the internet without any problems. It was great. Then came the challenges of updating/installing new versions of mandrake. My friend also got me Red Hat 9.0. I also connected to the net with it. Even though I had a harder time because I had to compile the drivers and do a lot of learning. Every thing was well worth it. Red Hat also had everything that I wanted except the multimedia support(mp3, dvd). The edge on my part was to mandrake at that point. The desktop was great I really liked Red Hat's polished look(and i choose KDE to gnome at that time). I tried installing the mp3 codecs but was unsuccessful, the DVD playback same turnout. Nowadays, I run LiveCD's - Knoppix, SLAX, FreeSBIE, SystemRescueCD, Berry, Beatrix. I like all of them. They are all great. As of my desktops I run Fedora Core 2 and Fedora Core 3. I have put my past ghosts behind me everything works like I want it. I use most desktops Gnome/KDE/Xfce and each one works to my liking and I switch between the three whenever I want to hide something or not show my full desktop to friends. I have tried SUSE Live Eval CD's and they are nice, I cannot comment on SUSE hard disk install but a close friend of mine said it was better than my old Mandrake and Fedora.
Distrowatch is a great site. I like to read the comments and I respect all of the comments of the users. I am grateful to all the developers of all the distributions because each contributes to linux in some way or another. Thanks Ladislav, you are an excellent person. Do not let the insulting people get you down. Keep up the great work!
93 • DebBlu and Libranet (by Robert on 2005-02-09 03:38:21 GMT from United States)
I have tried libranet and it is true that it was the most compatible with the debian repositories out of the mix other than DebBlu (so far). However, if I'm not mistaken, it's KDE-based which is fine, but I'm more of a Gnome guy. Of course I can apt-get install kde, but I would really like a clean system without any KDE stuff installed. But Libranet would be my second pick for my main system. And I wouldn't choose a non-Debian based system ever! But one of the beauties of linux is choice.
As far as the question of whether DebBlu will be a snapshot or using direct Debian repositories, I asked this very question and the response was it will NOT be a snapshot so not compatibility issues hey will arise. I was concerned because this seems to be the main problem underlying debian offshoots. But of course, then what about security. They may already have a security team in mind and the fact that the distro includes a firewall, is a step in the right direction.
It looks like their philosophy is geared heavily towards newbies to linux, and they don't want to charge for pre-compiled software and updates which simply can be installed via apt-get, synaptic or whatever. And the fact that they'll be including some software to run Windows software, may sway some people. I'm curious about the details of the reseller program they plan to institute.
94 • DebBlu and Libranet (by JimmySlim on 2005-02-09 04:00:14 GMT from United States)
If this new distro is truly 100% Debian compatible, couldn't you simply apt-get dist-upgrade? I mean unstable may have its bugs, but it's far more stable than a majority of the systems out there.
95 • To: Robert (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-09 04:28:30 GMT from Italy)
Libranet is "Desktop agnostic". It supports them all, just as Debian does.
However the default for 2.8.1 is a customized IceWM.
3.0 should be out soon.
96 • Belated Thanks (by William Roddy on 2005-02-09 05:33:48 GMT from United States)
Thank you, Anonymous Penguin, for the information on SuSE. That's why I'm here. To learn. So thanks again.
97 • P.S. (by William Roddy on 2005-02-09 05:37:28 GMT from United States)
I'm in hopital and driving the staff nuts. Who'd bring a laptop to a serious operation? Me. But they just don't understand old geezer geeks. Wish me luck.
98 • William (by Life on 2005-02-09 06:20:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
Best of luck with your operation man. I can't stand hospitals, I only hope you fare better in them. Still, with a laptop and SuperTux at your side, you won't go far wrong. :)
99 • RE: William Roddy (by SyntaxError at 2005-02-09 12:37:29 GMT from United States)
Good luck with your operation, old geezer geek. May the source be with you ;)
100 • Mandrake, Ubuntu & DebBlu (by Penguin on 2005-02-09 13:10:30 GMT from Finland)
As a side note to my previous post above, and as pmpatrick seemed to direct his "distrowars" criticism towards my comment too:
Basically I have nothing against Mandrake and I really wish them all the best. I just honestly and seriosuly hope that the Mandrake team would pay much more attention to stability issues and thus maybe listen a bit less to some youngsters wanting to have the latest versions of this and that software in every new Mandrake release (that is simply no way to achieve real stability - period).
Mandrake people could/should just face the facts instead of accusing critics for unfear criticism: The fact is that if you're seriosuly looking for an extra stable distribution, Mandrake is hardly among the best choices. It could be, but their special goals seem to have ben elsewhere: ease of use, the availability of all sorts of up-to-date software etc.
Unlike pmpatrick said I certainly didn't just refer to some personal bad Mandrake experiences with my hardware when criticizing Mandrake for bugs but I was referriing to lots of Mandrake reviews and comments from its users over many years. On the other hand I do know that there are certainly also buggier distros out there than Mandrake, for example Fedora isn't exactly known for its extra stability either (though it, or Mandrake, are far from being the worst in that respect).
There used to be a time when Mandrake really was THE choice for anyone looking for a desktop oriented distro. many people still seem to think so which, however, in my opinion, is just sad because for many purposes there might just be as good or even better alternatives nowadays. The times chane and competition between various Linux distros has never been harder. So, I really have nothing against Mandrake, but as there are more and more other good distros, I just think that they could just deserve to get some more publicity and more users too.
As to Ubuntu, I'm not an Ubuntu but a Debian user. However, if there is a distro that is known for its high stability standards and goals towards removing all bugs from releases, it is Debian. Ubuntu and other Debian-based distros automatically get some of that stanility from their Debian heritage too. Thus I think that more people should give some Debian-derivative a try: Libranet, Ubuntu or others. If they are looking for a distro to be used seriously on a day to day basis, not just some nice install and first experience, they might be pleasately surprised if their previous experience is only from some maybe better known RPM-based distros. For example, Debians package manaagemnt system is worth all the praise it has get for its ease of use and painless operation, although you may have to learn some of its pecularities first to make best use of it.
DebBlu might have a chance, or then again not. I didn't quite get from their homepage how are they going to succeed in the tough competition. What do they offer that Linspire, Xandros, Libranet, Ubuntu and others don't offer already? I uderstood that the DebBlu releases are going to cost money, so their value-added should be quite considerable so that they could gain enough userbase.
It can be relatively easy to make your own Linux distribution, especially if it is derived from an existing good distro. But it can be quite tough to have a succesfull business of getting money from selling distro releases as many others provide almost the same product free of charge. If the competition is getting tougher for established well-known distros like Mandrake, what about new and unknown ones?
Linux (distro) business is just not the same kind of business that many are used to in proprietary software field. It seems that Ubuntu may have understood some of the business logic in Linux world quite well. Maybe they will have a succesfull support business later when on the other hand some distributors still trying to sell their distros in the old-fashioned by selling CD's or distro downloads may be struggling for their survival.
101 • DebBlu hype (by Penguin on 2005-02-09 13:40:13 GMT from Finland)
Speaking of hype...
On one of the DebBlu web pages there is a comparison of Windows XP and DebBlu: http://www.debblu.com/comparison.html
In the comparison Windows XP gets only three stars for its "active user community" while DebBlue gets the full five stars (etc.). Now gimme a break, please... What the heck is DebBlue? Only a half-baked website yet, nothing more. Where is the DebBlue subpage on Distrowatch? Nowhere yet (if ever). They don't yet even have a first release AFAIK. Now how can they compare the stability and other such things, not to mention the "active user community" of their distro to that of Windows XP when there is nothing to compare yet... Also, they'd better leave that sort of quality comparisons to other more neutral reviewers instead of themselves...
Is that hype supposed to be the "business sense" that DebBlue has - according to some commentator above - and that many other distros don't have as much...?
On the DebBlue frontpage they tell us more honestly that the first release is expected to be "Available Q1 2005". Well, we'll be waiting, and maybe the wait will indeed be worth it, let's hope that and wish them all the best. There's always room and users for a new good distro that understands to serve its customers well. Anyway, I've beeen using Linux long enough already that I've seen these supposedly excellent new distros come and go.
102 • DebBlu hype (by JimmySlim on 2005-02-09 14:17:36 GMT from United States)
I have also been using Linux long enough to know that new distros come and go. I've taken a look at the DebBlu site and it was a pretty simple, but clean site. Similar to the Mac OsX site. I'm not sure where the five stars comes from, but if it's 100% debian, then it would be reasonable to assume that all the Debian forums out there apply. Personally, I use Slackware and have no intention of switching, but I'm always willing to install a new distro on a spare partition. Has anyone contacted the developers to see what the scoop is with this distro?
103 • To: William Roddy (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-09 15:15:55 GMT from Italy)
Sorry to hear you are in hospital. Best of luck with your operation, you are a really nice guy.
As to the info you are always welcome :)
104 • DebBlu hype, Mandrake, Libranet, and all the rest (by Jeff on 2005-02-09 15:24:17 GMT from United States)
I think what many of us forget here in the linux world is that for a product to suceed, it doesn't necessarily have to be the best. Windows is garbage software, but yet, it can be found on 90% of the desktops out there. Every linux distro has its pros and cons, but there hasn't yet been one to push it forward and maintain its linux stardom. These two things may be uncompatible and a successful distro may be required to alienate its linux community in favor of supporting its less-experienced customers. If all the linux distros got together and pooled all their strengths and resources, then Microsoft would have something to worry about. But right now, it's like all the little tribes trying to take on the Roman empire and just don't stand a chance. It was only when they got together, that the empire shook. United is the way to get linux moving while at the same time, maintaining some diversity. As for this new DebBlu, if their reseller program is a good one, then it may have luck landing linux in the home of our co-workers, family, friends, and all the rest who still stick with Windows. We live in a capitalism here in the States people and to get things done it takes resources and you have to give people incentives. I could care less who manages to accomplish this, but it'd be nice if a united effort was made, or if one good distro managed to pull it off, it'd be just as good.
105 • "multimedia support" (by KR on 2005-02-09 15:27:18 GMT from Finland)
Just a short remark on some comments reviewing distributions on their "multimedia" support: proprietary codecs need proprietary programs/components, so in general you should favor free audio/video formats (Ogg Theora, Ogg Vorbis, FLAC, Dirac, Speex...) which are or can be directly supported in (true) free software solutions. As for eg. DVDs, it's hard times to be a movie fan - you can buy music in a non-encrypted and free format (CDs with uncompressed PCM audio data) or even free compressed formats (some labels selling music in Ogg Vorbis / FLAC formats), but it's generally not the same with movies. Let's hope a bright future for movie distribution in Ogg Theora / Ogg Vorbis -formats or BBC's Dirac :)
106 • RE: Multimedia support (by Life on 2005-02-09 19:22:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
Couldn't agree more KR, although you should mention Xvid as a very viable open source codec for movie distribution, which is also going to take off in digital form in the coming months and years (think iMovies ;). Wide-scale online movie distribution is almost inevitable as global bandwidth and demand increases. Dirac also looks promising (mmm juicy wavlets :), but it still has a long way to go in terms of development.
107 • Re Ubuntu hype (by mikkh on 2005-02-10 01:08:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
Free handouts and lofty ideals don't make it anything but what it is - a very ordinary gnome only debian clone. And a very ugly one at that
I've tried lots of distros over the last two or three years, and if I had to choose one to sway the microsoft masses into using a viable alternative, Ubuntu wouldn't make the top twenty I'm afraid. Quite frankly it wouldn't even be in the list. Yet somehow it's in the top 10 on this site and being talked about like it's the saviour of the Linux world.
I can only marvel at the difference a millionaire backer makes
and liken it to all the idiots cooing and making ridiculous statements
about lumps of crap masquerading as art in galleries
108 • Ubuntu hype (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-10 01:22:31 GMT from United States)
Mikh, thank you for sharing your thoughtful, specific, substantive, and comparative criticisms. Very informative.
109 • Ubuntu hype (by Robert on 2005-02-10 01:24:25 GMT from United States)
Well said mikkh. Ubuntu is nothing but a clone. Don't be fooled, they haven't done anything that Debian hasn't done already. Even their website is copied from Progeny Debian (http://componentizedlinux.org/progeny). I guess they couldn't even code their own site.
110 • OOooops (by mikkh on 2005-02-10 02:00:50 GMT from United Kingdom)
Don't know what happened there, the repeat posting I mean, not the diatribe that late night posting and too much coffee produces.
I sent for my 10 free CD's btw and dutifully handed them out to those I thought might be interested. The only favourable comments were about the free windows programs, which I must admit is a very nice touch to an otherwise drab distro.
For those of you who think I merely glanced at it and dismissed it, I did in fact waste a whole afternoon in fixing the ridiculous no root login and trying to make it usable for real people and not for human beings as their sickenly cute cover proclaims
Shot of whisky would go nice in this last coffee, this old cynic needs some sleep I think
111 • Re: OOooops (by mikkh) (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-10 03:04:40 GMT from Italy)
I am not a great fan of Ubuntu either, but all it takes to fix the no root login is typing in a terminal: "sudo passwd root"
112 • UBUNTU is the VHS of the future (by Rizal Osman on 2005-02-10 03:30:19 GMT from Malaysia)
The reason is simple. Ever heard of VHS vx Betamax war? Nobody claim VHS is better than Betamax in term of pic quality,
compression, etc. etc. but in the end, VHS won Hands Down. (But scaringly both formats were wiped out by VCD and DVD Now - if we were to use them as a comparison)
Altho I am not perfect in so many ways, I tend to be able to pick up the "VHS" of the future (because I always belong to the "other" 90% of General Technology users). The fact that I do not belong to the 5-10% linux gurus/experts make me better in predicting the VHS theory.
1. TCP/IP is the VHS in networking protocol
2. Mysql is the VHS in Database
3. Php is the VHS in "Programming" language. (I think it now deserve the word "Programming")
4. Apache is the VHS in webserver (I personally use Abyss webserver)
5. Web-based / Browser-based is the VHS in GUI
- Linux in general will become the VHS in Operating System around 2008
- OpenOffice version 2.0 "will" become the VHS
- MIcrosoft Windows USED to be the VHS in the 90s and probably as far as 2005-2008.
I WOULD LIKE TO PREDICT - UBUNTU will become the VHS for the Linux Distro. If you keep my prev sentence in a textfile, and save it in a place, come back in 5-10 years, read it again, you will be wondering why u didn't make similar prediction in early 2005.
This is especially true when Openoffice 2.0 will be released as stable around May 2005, and Ubuntu is one of the early distribution to support them.
Remember what uncle Gates of Microsoft told us - We always over-predict in short term, but under-predict in long term.
When people said Linux Desktop will become mainstream in 2002, 2003, 2005 - they are overpredicting. By late 2005, they will be tired of predicting anymore. But by 2008, without making any prediction anymore, Linux is unanimously installed by default by majority of computer vendors with a clause "Add US $100 if U want Windows XP (or whatever) Installed - but we would not be responsible for the virus that follows).
And the major drive behind this prediction is.. UBUNTU.
113 • Ubuntu's website (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-10 03:31:38 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu's site has a very similar design to Progeny's. So does the site of the Custom Debian Distribution AGNULA project. http://www.agnula.org/ But perhaps you should do some more research before accusing anyone of plagiarism or laziness. All of these sites and many others are developed using Plone http://plone.org/ an Open Source web development kit. It produces a clean, easy to use, and fully standards compliant design and it makes perfect sense that several different F/OSS projects would use it.
114 • Re: UBUNTU is the VHS of the future (by Rizal Osman) (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-10 04:38:13 GMT from Italy)
"When people said Linux Desktop will become mainstream in 2002, 2003, 2005 - they are overpredicting. By late 2005, they will be tired of predicting anymore. "
Most likely you are right, Linux Desktop will not become mainstream by the end of this year, but it will be a very mature OS (just consider all the new technology that is not quite mature yet, but should be by the end of this year)
What will it mean in practical terms? Well, just to make an example, people buy very few big names Desktops in this country, they ask a local to make one for them (this was a big surprise to me, because in the UK it was the other way around).
Well, I have spoken to some of the people who make computers, and they are looking forward to installing Linux instead of MS Windows.
And then consider the poorer countries. At the moment most are using pirated copies of Windows, but once Linux becomes clearly better (in fact it is already), what is the point?
115 • RE:Ubuntu hype - by Robert (by Alan Moser on 2005-02-10 04:41:11 GMT from United States)
What do you mean that Ubuntu has not done anything that debian had not done. What about x.org, it is the Ubuntu developers who are bringing x.org to debian. So don't tell me that Ubuntu is just not doing any thing. They sent upstream over 3,000 lines of code to patch xfree86. So yes, they are doinging some thing.
P.S. if you don't belive me, can you please name me one debian based distro (pre-Ubuntu) that uses x.org
116 • Rizal's point (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-10 04:50:47 GMT from United States)
It is absolutely on point that poorer countries are a large potential market for GNU/Linux. In fact, M$ has been trying to scare them away with threats of patent suits - while at the same time claiming that machines purchased in those countries with GNU/Linux pre-installed are all just being used to then have "pirated" Windows installed (an interesting juxtaposition there).
It should also be noted that Shuttleworth's primary aim, contra those saying that Ubuntu won't replace Windoze for the typical desktop user - implying that that's the aim - is actually to provide a free operating system for individuals and businesses in developing countries. Note that he also has a history of providing venture capital and other assistance to entrepeneurs in African countries.
117 • worse is worse (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-10 04:56:56 GMT from United States)
My previous reply was actually to the anonymous poster in Italy, rather than to Rizal. But this is in response to Rizal. The familiar claim often cited as a UNIX tenet, is that "worse is better". But sometimes what is worse in some ways is really better in others. Quoting an essay at http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=24807
"The old chestnut of beta and vhs is open to the same sort of alternate interpretation. On the "worse is better" interpretation, the superior quality beta was beaten out by the clearly inferior vhs tape format because of some inexplicable perversity of human nature (or the machinations of clever marketing people, or the hubris of Sony, who owned the Beta brand). But the vhs tapes were capable of recording longer programs on a single cassette, and could be played on cheaper recorders, and had a number of different suppliers. Thus there were a set of metrics on which vhs was the superior technology, and these metrics seemed to be the ones that most in the market found to be important. Vhs beat out beta not because worse is better, but better in some dimensions (cost, time to record) beat out better in other dimensions (picture quality)."
118 • Ubuntu, Microsoft and the late Ottoman Empire. (by Rizal Osman on 2005-02-10 06:43:37 GMT from Malaysia)
I enjoy reading history bcoz History always repeats itself. Remember the DotCom Crush in 2003? It was strikingly similar to that of Wireless Crash (Marconi) at the end of 1920s.
First there were Socrates, Aristotle and Plato who influence the development of early Democracy. (Gnu/Linux=Democracy). Then there were the Roman,Persian & Byzantine Empire (=proprietary Unix). Next there were the Muslims (=Microsoft) - Umayyad (Win 3.11),Abassid (Win95) and lastly Ottoman (WinXP). (Hence Windows Longhorn would be Kamal Attartuk and the end of Ottoman Empire .. hehehe.)
Around 1500, the westerners starting to find ways avoiding the Ottoman Empire to reach the East and the lucrative spices/silk business. Then brave souls with rather primitive ship technology start to sail westward (doing servers), instead of going eastward (doing Desktops) to find the East and with luck, a New World. These pioneers are RM Stallman, Linus and founders of Slackware, Debian, Suse.
From 1500-1900, the westerners (All Linux Distros), for a while were forgetting the menace of Ottoman Empire (because they were going westward), but strangely, they began to fight each other in order to conquer the NewlyFoundWorld of North and South America. (This fighting is happening now in Distrowatch). SO WE ARE AT THIS STAGE.
As history went, from 1500-1900 various western empires came and went. There were the Portuguese (Slackware), Spanish (Suse),
the Dutch (RedHat), German (Mandrake) and the England (Debian). Of late, the English-speaking westerners (Debian-based distros) seems to command/Conquer the majority of the new World. Some went as far as Australia (Knoppix) and New Zealand (Damn Small Linux). Some went to Canada (MEPIS), Some became a bit materialistic $$$ and stay in Singapore (Linspire), or HongKong (Xandros)
In the meantime discontent among Dutch/Spanish speaking colonies were growing (bcoz they are using the RPM, not Apt-get),
however both empires were swift to crush any riot and promise to fix their current systems with "urpmi"/"apt2rpm".
The British (Debian) then controlled almost 1/3 of the Earth land. The most powerful of the NewlyFoundLand were the colonies in east of North America (Ubuntu & its communities). At first, these Colonies abide to rules set by the Queen / their Motherland Britain. They sent back money and raw materials for free (Ubuntu send security patches & bugfixes back to Debian tree).
Over time, the Colonies (Ubuntus) realise.. "Hey we are ourselves a humongous empire now, it is ridiculous we still have to give money to the puny little Britain". Then the Battle for indenpendence begin. At first the Motherland Britain send their best generals (Hardcore debian developers) to crush the Colonies. Sadly as the war progress, more and more best brains (Scientist, Economist, Academician, Businessman) migrate to the North America. As Ubuntu let independent business to make money over their distros, some early americans found a wealth of gold sitting untouch in the californian dessert, hence starting the Gold Rush. By this time, people around the world are coming in droves to America (Ubuntu) to capitalise on the new phenomena. (See.. people are forgetting the Ottoman/Microsoft for a while)
By the time the battle for Independence was won by the American(Ubuntu) over Britain(Debian), the Ottoman Empire (Microsoft) was no longer relevant. Because of the previous wars between distros, they have develop very powerful technologies & sophisticated weaponry, for which, when the remnant of the Ottoman Empire try to join the World War 1 on the Axis side, they
were easily crushed by the coalition led by Linux Distros.
Then the second world war. The second world war was not fought over religion (Westerners/Linux vs Ottoman/Microsoft). Rather it was the problem with Ideologies. Apt-get turn out to be "Democracy" while RPM turn out to be "Nazi/Fascist". In the beginning, the Nazis-Fascist (RPM) led by German (Mandrake) seem to win several key battles. The american(Ubuntu) did not join the war at first. They let their previous Motherland Britain(Debian) to fight alone. Then the pearl harbour and Ubuntu were force to join the battle with Mark Shuttleworth almighty cash reserve of US $575 Millions and solid Ubuntu community support. And the rest was history..
119 • Historical analogies (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-10 07:03:09 GMT from United States)
Quite a few extravagant and strained analogies there, but amusing to read nevertheless. However, I don't really think a rebellion of Ubuntu against Debian is very likely. Their relationship - aided in part by developers who belong to both communities - is much more symbiotic than that of Britain and the Americas. And Debian is taking the Ubuntu situation into account in their discussion of future policy, as several proposals here demonstrate: http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?ReleaseProposals
so I see the mutually beneficial relationship only increasing.
(And those who have compared Ubuntu unfavorably to Debian and to other Debian derived distros may want to consider the esteem in which many Debian developers seem to hold Ubuntu.)
BTW, Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were not advocates but critics of Athenian democracy.
120 • Re: Ubuntu, Microsoft and the late Ottoman Empire. (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-10 07:14:33 GMT from Italy)
Very funny, but whether the Mandrakians will enjoy being compared to Nazi German it remains to be seen (personally I find it hilarious)
121 • I am A Newbie Who Hate RPM (by Rizal Osman on 2005-02-10 09:34:29 GMT from Malaysia)
Last Year, I tried to install Redhat 9. Then the nightmare of RPM dependency hell haunted me when I tried to install RPM from Mandrake. Then I stop using linux. I am back to Microsoft WinXp up to now. BUT I have been visiting Distrowatch for 2 years now, just reading about linux advance, from a Pure Microsoft Laptop computer. I have just bought a desktop to test linux and i found Ubuntu and www.ubuntuguide.org is the best place to start. I think "The Time" has come for the mass user like me (General Technology User who represent 90% of the market) to try linux and my advice - START WITH UBUNTU.
122 • re ooops by anonymous penguin (by mikkh on 2005-02-10 10:33:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
Well duh! that's exactly what I did
What I said was......... I spent all afternoon fixing the no root login AND *A N D* (just to emphasise it) making it usable by adding the missing multimedia stuff and customising it to my taste.
And my real point was I hadn't just given it a token glance and dismissed it - like you seem to have done with my reply.
I'm not some snot nosed noob who thinks mandrake is really cool.
I've installed dozens and dozens of distros, and I've even passed what some see as the ultimate test in Linux geekdom, by installing Gentoo successfully
123 • vim wishlist (by Michael Wardle on 2005-02-10 11:20:26 GMT from Australia)
Here's the things I sorely miss in Vim and believe aren't available:
1) A decent hexadecimal file editor mode
2) Quit (:q) quits the program, not the current buffer when multiple (close should, and does, do that)
3) Even better documentation
4) Improved crash recovery (simple like nvi)
5) Tab setting guessing (for example: existing C++ file looks like it uses 2-space indentation, so default to that)
6) Ship with some of the useful plugins by default (things like manpageview)
7) Desktop environment integration (things like kvimpart and GTK 2 enhancement)
In general, I love Vim, but there's a couple of things that Elvis (another Vi clone) and Emacs seem to do better. If Vim could incorporate a couple of those things that make those programs better, it would be great.
124 • re: Mepis and Ubuntu not even close (by Honest Bastard on 2005-02-10 12:16:10 GMT from Japan)
Amen!!! Couldn`t have put it any better, that`s why after usiong Mepis for about a year, having even paid to download it twice and even considered participating in the community but in the end I couldn`t see myself voulenteering my time for work to be proprietised.
Anyone who thinks the differences between Ubuntu and Mepis are simply the difference between KDE and Gnome have obviously been sleeping under a rock recently.
" The hissy-fit he threw on the forums when he swore of doing GPL work was quite emmbarassing though" ... Yes, that was quite entertaining and on a public forum in front of his own paying customers no doubt.
You don`t take one of the freeist and purist of GNU/ Linux Distributions and proprietize it and not expect some kind of contreversy
Look like it or not Linux is for the kernel, Gnu is for everything else and GPL is the law of the land. In other words Linux is the mayor, Gnu are the citizens and GPL is the sheriff of this little town.
Unfortunatly, QT is the loophole to the GPL and Warren has obiously chosen to exploit it. There is a Unix based license that allows for the propreitization of derivative works and that license is for BSD, if Warren had so much against the GPL, perhaps he should have considered basing his product off of BSD instead of Linux.
... Mark Shuttleworth and his team of Ubuntu developers use the free GPL version of QT and return all their work in source code back to the Debian team.
....Warren bought a Trolltech license so he couldn`t be forced to release the source-code of his "so called" GPL`d utilities
... Ubuntu uses Debian testing which recieves frequent security updates from the Debian Team as well as Ubuntu developers
... Mepis uses Debian unstable which recieves NO security updates and often has broken dependencies during major update cycles. Such was evident in Mepis during the KDE update cycle. Unfortunatly Warrens decision to use Debian unstable as a base has kept him extremely busy fixing dependency problems rather than creating more original tools for Mepis as the lack of originality was stated in the last issue of Distrowatch Weekly.
Non-Free and Proprietary Add-Ons
... Ubuntu gives the user the option of whether they want to polute their free Debian based distro with proprietary plug-ins.
... Mepis comes preloaded with tons of proprietary software including the worst type M$ created plug-ins.
... Mepis is highly politicized, which was evident in Warren`s recent decision to support the United States Militaries illegal actions in Iraq.
... Ubuntu`s openness has made it quickly evolve into an international distribution.
... Warren`s decision to keep Mepis a closed pretty much one-man show has kept Mepis mostly a distribution for Americans.
125 • "the ultimate test in Linux geekdom" (by Ariszló on 2005-02-10 12:23:49 GMT from Hungary)
mikkh: "I've installed dozens and dozens of distros, and I've even passed what some see as the ultimate test in Linux geekdom, by installing Gentoo successfully"
It's LFS, not Gentoo: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
126 • "the ultimate test" (by mikkh on 2005-02-10 13:42:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yes I know lol, I did say "what some see" didn't I?
I've already downloaded the latest book and I'm waiting for the repeats of the simpsons to become so boring that I'll have time to start it !
127 • Re: Ubuntu, Microsoft and the late Ottoman Empire. (by Anonymous on 2005-02-10 16:01:48 GMT from United States)
Ineresting read, Rizal. You must have a lively imagination. And lots of free time...
128 • Ubuntu vs MEPIS (to Honest Bastard) (by Gnobian Kenoobie on 2005-02-10 21:18:00 GMT from United States)
I don't want to correct someone who agrees with me about so much, but a few clarifications:
Ubuntu presently doesn't develop with Qt libraries at all and KDE is not in Main and isn't officially supported. That will change with the Kubuntu and Masters of the Universe projects however and I've no doubt that at that point they will be using the GPL version.
Ubuntu uses a snapshot of Debian unstable. They provide their own security updates as well as those from the Debian pool. MEPIS uses a mix of Debian testing and unstable. And testing doesn't receive security updates except after they've propogated up through unstable.
Ubuntu was international from the start, being created by a South African entrepeneur/philanthropist from a headquarters on the Isle of Man.
Tis last point is certainly open to dispute, but I think in Warren's defense, we should say that it is possible to show sympathy and support from soldiers and their families cut off from each other without necessarily endorsing the war that separates them.
129 • Well Put (by Jose on 2005-02-11 03:06:55 GMT from United States)
Indeed, well put, Gnobian Kenoobie on your last comment. I felt the war was a mistake but appreciated what Warren has done for the Military. You don't have to support a war when you support the people involved in it.
Don't forget that Mepis has a German version already out. It is and has been an International project.
Personally I feel this is all a lot of ado about nothing. I mean, really, if it is the newbies we are talking about, Xandros is a fra better choice than Mepis or Ubuntu. For the seasoned pro, why waste time with a clone when you get just install Sarge?
For us folks in the middle, we all know that we change distros as the breeze blows.
130 • Re: Well Put (by im_ka on 2005-02-11 03:21:46 GMT from Hungary)
"For us folks in the middle, we all know that we change distros as the breeze blows."
although we keep saying that we'll settle :-)
131 • newbies and pros (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-11 07:07:04 GMT from United States)
There are seasoned pros who run Woody (or OpenBSD) on their decidated router/firewall, Woody on their file server, Sarge with pinning from Sid and Sid+Scud in a chroot jail (along with Slack, Gentoo, and Fedora) on their development workstations, but Ubuntu on their desktops where they handle their day to day affairs. One of the beauties of GNU/Linux is flexibility and choice.
I'd say the same applies to newbies really. Xandros "far better" than MEPIS for a newbie? The Xandros installer is only marginally simpler to use and in some cases MEPIS detects hardware better. Besides which, the ability to try MEPIS out as a live CD is very reassuring for newbies considering the plunge. I think Ladislav was correct when he revised the into to the Major Distributions page to list MEPIS alongside Xandros as newbie-friendly.
On the other hand, with just a little help from a friend or a bit of reading, I've seen newbies thrive using Ubuntu.
Speaking of live CDs, my own first direct experience with GNU/Linux was discovering Knoppix as a tool to rescue ailing Windoze boxen - then finding out that it could do so much more. And for many newbies, Knoppix is still a great choice. For example, those who share machines with people who just won't give up Windoze and who don't dare taking any chances may find the ability to boot the Knoppix ISO off of an NTFS partition and save their configuration and persistent home on a USB pendrive to be the perfect answer.
And let's not forget: newbies vary in their levels of patience as well. Those who have DIY temperaments and resent the amount of control they lose using Windoze may love the learning experience of jumping into the deep end with Slackware.
I've got my reasons for loving Ubuntu, but there are lots of options out there and lots of people with varying needs and temperaments. Hopefully, with great sites like Distrowatch, they can find the option that's right for them.
132 • Zen Linux (by Alan Moser on 2005-02-11 08:11:02 GMT from United States)
Does anyone know anything about Zen linux (other then it is 100% compatible with debain unstable)? And why has this distro been flying under our radar? Any info will help, this sounds like it could be a great distro. 100% compatible with debain + live cd to boot.
P.S. please be gental with their servers, they are on a very limited bandwith
133 • Time for free subscription (by Lord-Storm from julexlinux on 2005-02-11 08:13:57 GMT from Australia)
It would be nice to have a subscription so..
You can have your own username and password
Admin's could enforce bans
We all understand this would be some work and there would be alot of bandwidth used to start with. It will slow down bots. Trolls may be banned/kicked for junk posts.
Personaly I cant wait for whitebox linux 4.
Fighting over linux distro's is like me saying speedtouch suck and netcomm is no better. Or IBM is better than TYAN.
134 • Ignore this Ladislav said so ... (by Realistic Bastards on 2005-02-11 14:51:31 GMT from Canada)
Ross : I agree your question wich I answered back where all wayward points , and anyone who as been coming here since the start knew the answers to them I will add that your reading skill is pretty low since I whas quoting Moulinneuf who whas talking about Ladislav , fortunately for Ladislav he as calmed down , I dont make threat against people even less against kids who dont know what they are talking about , neither does Moulinneuf thats why I wrote it it whas funny that to see him get so mad at Ladislav for what I tought whas a stupid comment made by Ladislav , but I guess , there is more to the comment that even I and Ladislav know about, I certainly have no problem with a kid who use bittorent to distribute GNU/Linux distributions.
Rizal Osman : I really like your fantasy thinking and rewritting of the world and its events as you see fit.
VHS did Not Beat Betamax , it whas Betamax who killed itself. Betamax whas pricier and whas not as open as VHS and there where fewer Betamax machine made to playback Betamax and they where pricier. Also VHS whas supported by the Film industry who released most of there film using this VHS protocol instead.
1896 IBM founded (as the Tabulating Machine Company)
1924 - February International Business Machines (IBM corporation) formed after some mergers
1939 - January Hewlett-Packard formed
1946 ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer):
1951 UNIVAC-1. The first commercially sucessful electronic computer
1964 Launch of IBM 360
1970 Development of UNIX operating system
1970 Unix came first , whas overpriced and whas the property of the Rich Telecom , Military and research Centers It never gain Public widespread. And whas plagued by the many version wich where not working togheter well. It Failed ...
1974 - December MITS Altair 8800, the first personal computer to be available commercially
1975 First implementation of BASIC by Bill Gates and Paul Allen, it was written for the MITS Altair - the first personal computer - this led to the formation of Microsoft later in the year
1975 Unix marketed
1975 Formation of Microsoft by Bill Gates and Paul Allen
1976 Apple Computer, Inc. founded
1976 Cray 1, the first commercially developed Supercomputer
1977, the Berkeley Software Distribution ( BSD ) is created
1979 IBM saw its computer market dominance being eaten into by the new personal computers, such as the Apple and the Commodore PET. IBM therefore started work on their own P.C. This computer had to be a state-of-the-art machine in order to compete, but had to be produced very quickly due to the amazing growth of competitors. It was therefore decided to use many third party parts to reduce development time,
1979 Microsoft is awarded the OS contract for the new IBM PC due to Familly ties ( Mother of Bill Gates whas VP at IBM ) , even do Microsft did not have an OS themself. They showed a DOS based concept.
1980 Microsoft aquire Q-dos and rename it MS-DOS
1983 GNU Project is created/started
1985 The Free Software Foundation is Created
1985 - Microsoft Windows Launched.
1987 Microsoft Windows 2 released
1987 - PS/2 Systems introduced by IBM.
1989 World Wide Web, invented by Tim Berners-Lee
1989 - NCSA Mosaic is created later that year
1990 - Introduction of Windows 3.0
1991 - Linus Torvald Release The Linux Kernel using the GNU tools
1991 - Linus Torval adopt the GPL for its kernel
1992 - In 1992, the GNU project (http://www.gnu.org/) adopted the Linux kernel for use on GNU systems.
1992 - The first GNU/Linux distribution is created Softlanding Linux System (SLS) by Peter MacDonald , at this time it is the most widely worldwide used distribution.
1992 the SLS developers made the decision to change the executable format which was not well received by there user base , among them Patrick Volkerding and Ian Murdock
1992 - The Slackware Project is started
1992 - Ian Murdock work on apt
1992 - S.U.S.E was founded in late 1992 as a UNIX consulting group, which among other things regularly released software packages that included SLS and Slackware, and printed UNIX/Linux manuals. The SLS and Slackware distributions wich where distributed on floppy-sets to there mostly Germans clients , Hubert Mantel, Burchard Steinbild, Roland Dyroff and Thomas Fehr where the Founder of S.U.S.E.
1993 - Commercial providers were allowed to sell internet connections to individuals.
1993 - Jurix Linux is created by Florian La Roche.
1993 - The Debian company is started and fail
1993 - The Red Hat project is started by Marc Ewing
1993 - Doom is released by Id Software Inc.
1993 - 1994 The Debian Project is created out of the remainder of the Debian Company and Funded for 1 year by the FSF
1994 Netscape 1.0
1994 - S.u.S.E Linux 1.0. released , this is first original CD distribution of SuSe Which is entirely based of Jurix.
1994 - Doom II released
1995 - The Red Hat Corporation is created by The merger of The Red Hat company and ACC Corporation of Bob Young
1995 - Windows 95 is released become the first Mainstream PC OS.
1996 KDE was founded
1997 Gnome is founded
UP UNTIL NOW NOBODY CAN INSTALL GNU/LINUX IN AN EASY WAY , GNU/LINUX NEVER ADD UNTIL NOW A REAL GUI AND NOBODY REALLY THINK IT CAN MAKE IT AS A MAINSTREAM OS EVEN DO BY THIS TIME THERE ARE 10 MILLION GNU/LINUX USER WORLDWIDE
THE #1 GNU/LINUX DISTRIBUTION IS CREATED :
1997 - Gaël Duval Create Linux-Mandrake
1998 - Windows 98 is released and become the first true gamer mainstream PC platform.
1998 KDE 1.0 is Released
1998 - MandrakeSoft is created to Commercially support Linux-Mandrake
1999 - The year that GNU/Linux goes Mainstream because of MandrakeSoft
1999 ( April ) Someone with the initials L.B. start using Gnu/Linux
1999-2000 L.B. gets a job at a GNU/Linux company called Linpus.
2000 L.B. whill at Linpus start a webpage with a chart comparing 5 distribution and Linpus
2001 L.B. start a site using is chart
2001 L.B. change is chart to html and start a real website with the name Distrowatch.
Actually I have many problem with your dream up world.
First of all the NAZI where not an ideology , because the real analogy behind the nazi mouvement whas the same as the Red Cross , they started by helping the really in debt and really poor German Citizen by feeding them and clothing them and giving them hope of a better world for all German.
The German actually liked so much there good action that they voted them in as an elected government. Now the Idea behind the Nazi movment whas perverted by the dictature of one crazy global murderer Adolph Hitler.
Second its not even funny to link any GNU/Linux group with the NAZI.
Third you say that you know your history but you forget the most major player ever : Canada
Mandrake is more closer to the Canadians Mentality then the other one , there the one who always follow the rules and always try to help everyone and when a real war against someone who really as weapon of mass destruction start there the first on the front line and there also the only real peacekeaper.
fourth : RPM is Superior to Deb in every way , its apt-get which whas a better tool , but not anymore.
Fifth : good luck using Debian as a base , no commercial company as ever made a long term profit using it. and 575 million is not a lot of money in the Gnu/Linux world. Corel spent almost 900 million on Debian before giving up.
And oh yes go Read a real history book ... you obviously where missing a couple thousand pages in yours ...
The Real Americans are from Canada
D efender of
we have 3 ship and 1 helicopter to defend all the country , but they are Canadian manned thats all thats needed ...
- I am an Ewok *litlle Ewok dance * ...
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
we won a long time ago ...
"Rights that do not flow from duty well performed are not worth having."
same author as previous one
135 • OpenOffice.org2 (by William Roddy on 2005-02-11 19:45:38 GMT from United States)
Thank you for your kind words to me. So far, I have made it. I'll know more today.
A Web-friend wrote to me that Ubuntu now has Openoffice.org2. I checked and it does. I installed it this a.m. (I may be hallucinating; lots of pain med). It works.
The previous write offends me terribly. Next to all of the rest of you, his illness stands out like an explosion hole in a beautiful building. I love Canada and its people. It is one of the world's most unique countries. The previous writer's unfriendliness is not typical of anyone I've met there.
Can't stay awake. To sleep, perchance to dream of an open-source world.
136 • @William Roddy (by Realistic Bastards on 2005-02-11 23:50:19 GMT from Canada)
Glad to see you pull trough , hope they found your problem and that your only going to get better from this point on.Also that your not going bankrupt getting better.
When you are better you will have to tell me whats offending with my comment ( I am assuming its my accurracy in my comment which as offended you.).
No its not an hillness , but I guess you cant understand what it means to defend its close friend/ally and going against the majority when the majority happen to be wrong.
To side with someone who call anything a NAZI , you dont love Canada that much and even less its people.
I stopped dreaming , I work everyday at building a GNU/Linux
world. Because I know open-source is worthless without freedom and equality for all.
137 • We are all Linux brothers (by Rizal Osman on 2005-02-11 23:56:50 GMT from Malaysia)
To "Realistic Bastards" nickname from Canada. We are all brothers here since we all love linux and hate the Evil Empire Microsoft. Let us just have a laugh and back to work.
I have installed Ubuntu - of course i like it. I may tried the latest incarnation bcoz it has Openoffice 2.0 - (Someone said above). I already have 5 clients (I am a php-mysql programmer) - They all are using pirated versions of Windows and feeling nervous everyday if enforcement/licence officer come to have a look. Whenever I feel comfortable with Linux/Ubuntu in the next 12 month, I will install all computers in their offices with Ubuntu. Now back to mantra..
LET US ALL DESTROY THE EVIL MICROSOFT EMPIRE.
138 • @Rizal Osman (by Realistic Bastards on 2005-02-12 01:30:03 GMT from Canada)
No , where not brother , I will never side with anyone who call anything NAZI , even worst when its a really good group , , my familly and country lost people fighting them, I must honor there action by reminding it properly , and learning from it , not just remembering what please me.
I dont love Linux , I love Gnu/Linux , Microsoft for me is not an evil empire 95% of the planet now enjoy a computer because they fought and won against open-source , Unix closed source and insane pricing , Apple closed source and closed hardware , BSD ridiculous arrogance and license.
I would have them dual booth , now , with GNU/Linux Ubuntu as first default. ( actually it would be with MandrakeLinux )
you know about this site :
There used to be a link to the source code of Distrowatch wich one could download and use , but I think Ladislav this day is lazy or just dont whant anyone else using is code ...
or worst I havent found it because its really easy to find ( sarcasm )
I dont believe in destroying others , Microsoft is not out to destroy GNU/Linux there just out to make a profit , and a dual Boot machine is nice.
And you forgot to listen to your master your not suppose to reply to me ...
139 • U vs. M (by H.B. on 2005-02-12 08:05:52 GMT from Japan)
I stand corrected it I haven`t used Mepis since it split and when I was using it was mostly based off unstable.
I actually prefer KDE to Gnome for most of my work and I like Debian base. Now if Klaus Knopper would just change his mind and make a decent installer. I`m not a developer, I could really care less about getting my hands on the source code for the Mepis Utilities.
I actually was already runing Mepis on two systems and just wanted to get it up and running on a third SCSI based system. I tried rebuilding the kernel with the Debian stock kernel, but the Init scripts for Mepis are so dependent on the modules patched in the Mepis kernel I got all kinds of errors on bootup.
when I asked for the Mepis kernel-sources to rebuild the kernel I was greeted with.... You know good and well those sources are not freely available.....and..... I bought a QT license to shut you guys up once and for good....
Well....... You know sometimes when we get wrapped up in our own self ego, we don`t realise we`re stepping on ants, but every once in a while we step on a red ant.
Yes, I know there is a German version of Mepis out, but even you must have noticed for the length off time it has been around and for being a top ten distro it`s spread internationally has been very slow. This is one of the consequences off insisting on keeping most everything to yourself rather than having a real project.
PS. Not to get off the subject of GNU/Linux, yes I know you don`t have to support something to support the people involved in it. But of course, many of the same people who believe that also think to be against something is to be against the people inolved in it.
140 • The Illegitimacy of the illegitimate (by Legitimate, with proud mother on 2005-02-12 13:12:49 GMT from United States)
"Confusingly various philosophically unrelated positions, in some cases diametrically opposed, are termed 'realism.' In large measure this depends on which debates are active at the time, and may be encouraged by THE FACT that A PHILOSOPHICAL POSITION OFTEN LOOKS STRONGER IF YOU ATTACH THE WORD "REAL" TO IT.
"The oldest use of the term comes from Medieval interpretations of Greek philosophy. Here "realism" is contrasted with "conceptualism" and "nominalism". This can be called "realism about universals." Universals are terms or properties that can be applied to many things, rather than denoting a single specific individual--for example, red, beauty, five, or dog, as opposed to Socrates or Athens. Realism holds that these universals really exist, independently and somehow prior to the world; it is associated with Plato."
Taken from Wikipedia (the open-source encyclopedia)
Since no one will read this anyhow, here's more fodder for the illegitimate.
"The problem was to sustain at any cost the feeling you had in the theater that you were watching a real person, yes, but an intense condensation of his experience, not simply a realistic series of episodes."
"I agree with the realistic Irishman who said he preferred to prophesy after the event." - ILN, 10/7/16
"What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth? Judging from realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad."
141 • Ubuntu, Mepis and others (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-12 23:38:15 GMT from Italy)
By reading this page and many other linux forums, one could believe that the only Debian derivatives which count are Ubuntu and Mepis. Well, personally I am not very keen on either, and the cons of those distros have been mentioned hundreds of times, so they are well known.
While Libranet is my overall Debian favourite, I am waiting for 3.0 to be released, because with 2.8.1 it can be really difficult to detect and configure new hardware. Well, tonight I have been really impressed by the latest Kanotix: Kano has really pulled out all the stops: a nice 2.8.10 custom kernel, plenty of features, very good looking (one can't say the same of Ubuntu or Mepis)...
But what really impressed me is that my ADSL D-Link modem connection has been configured in seconds. *Every* other Debian distro, including of course Debian Proper, had failed (as to Ubuntu it doesn't even have a GUI ADSL configuration, which I find very bad for a supposedly newbie friendly distro)
So let's give credit where it is deserved.
142 • U v M (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-12 23:42:36 GMT from United States)
MEPIS uses a lot of pinning with its sources. It may very well be that it actually uses more packages from unstable than testing. I'm not certain on that point.
Even if one isn't a developer, the closed source on the MEPIS utilities is problematic because, e.g., you can't compile MEPIS for amd64, you can't audit the code for bugs and security holes - particularly distressing since some of the utilities need to run as root, and the project cannot be continued - or improved - by others should Warren decide to pack his bags. Still with a Trolltech license, that's well within his rights. I just won't be donating time or money to such a project, but that's me.
What you've said about kernel however is quite disturbing. Was this Warren or one of his enthusiastic forum members? AFAIK, the Linux kernel has no Qt components and remains largely GPL, so his Trolltech license certainly does NOT entitle him not to share source for his kernel modifications. Linus and the Free Software Foundation really need to know about this and I'd suggest you forward all relevant correspondence to them. This is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE. (I'm sure Warren will say I'm a member of the "RMS cult" for this, but that's too damned bad and if it weren't for RMS he wouldn't HAVE a distribution.)
As for the other matter, I wholly agree: it's a cheap shot to accuse those who oppose the conflict of somehow being unpatriotic or disloyal or of failing to sympathize with people whose lives have been disrupted or ended by the conflict.
And since this has taken a bit of a political turn, I'll throw this in - though it's not addressed to you, HB, and I really don't see Realistic Bastards as worth addressing: we need to be extremely careful throwing around the "Nazi" label, even in jest. In fact, speaking of RMS, I see this as analogous to his remarks concerning so-called "piracy": if you don't think that sharing music with your neighbor is morally comparable to attacking ships on the high seas and murdering their passengers and crew, it's best not to use the term.
143 • M ? U (by winsnomore on 2005-02-13 00:21:45 GMT from United States)
I have tried both Mepis & Ubuntu.
Ubuntu's WARTY install was(is) BRAIN-DEAD .. it wiped out the boot block before it was ready to write the image and never recoverd. This is NOT how a reasonably competent programmer codes.
Mepis installed everything cleanly .. twice (2004 and 3.3 test)
So with the horde of programmers purchased with those milllions of south-african money couldn't beat the lonely ranger from Morgantown .. need anyone say more ?
I am sure Mepis runs a very lean operation and that alone will carry it far .. much further than the other "paid" projects will.
And please cut out this nonsense about someone being philanthrophist and humanatarian .. WHO CARES ....
The hype of ubuntu is paid for with "free" install CD's in magazines and probably with some paid revewing and advertisments on the sites.
IMO Mephis is a MUCH better and cleaner distribution and I could really careless if Warren threw a fit or two and paid some trolls for trinkets to decorate his windows :-))
144 • U v M (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-13 00:35:10 GMT from United States)
I've never had those problems with Ubuntu's installer and haven't had problems with that of MEPIS either - though I'd have appreciated more flexibility that just /, /home, and swap partitions. But even if I had, I wouldn't presume to judge the distro on whether it had had difficulties on my harder when clearly a great many people have installed it successfully without any problems whatsoever. That's simply narcissistic.
(The one problem I've had with the MEPIS install is that it doesn't seem to want to accept that I'm not using Windoze, so my clock is set to UTC.)
The relevance of Shuttleworth's philanthropic/entrepeneurial hybrid vision is that it goes to address concerns about his just deciding to cut and run if Ubuntu doesn't quickly show a profit. And the fact that, contra claims that it is supposed to be a "newbie-friendly" distro or to compete with Windows on desktop in the US and Europe, he is aiming at the developing world, where he already has a lot of engagement. My point is NOT "Oh, Shuttleworth is such a nice, generous guy, so you should use Ubuntu".
As for your concern - or lack thereof - about Free Software and Wodford's seeming indifference and even hostility to its ideals, I can only say, as I said before, different people have different concerns and of course you should determine what distro is right for you based on your own needs and values.
145 • correction (by Anonymous on 2005-02-13 00:36:26 GMT from United States)
that should read "difficulties on my hardware"
146 • u vs m and political problems (by billy on 2005-02-13 21:21:06 GMT from United States)
I had not been aware of these views of Warren Woodford's. Can someone link to where he endorses the war in Iraq, and where he makes these anti-GPL comments? The latter are especially disturbing to me. To put it this way: If I refused to do business with any war-mongers, I would be S.O.L., especially here in Texas. (Gave up Fuddrucker's hamburgers and "freedom fries," however). But anti-GPL, that really sucks. I'd like to read what he says before I decide what he means.
147 • U v M (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-13 21:31:31 GMT from United States)
The stuff about Iraq is simply a matter of his having given free copies of MEPIS... with its programs like Skype and such... to soldiers in Iraq and their families to stay in touch. Personally, I saw that as a supportive thing to do for those families and didn't take it as an endorsement of the war, but others took it differently.
As for the GPL, well his actually violating it is not something I can confirm. However one place where his - well, "misgivings" is a nice charitable way to put it - about the GPL, Stallman, et al, can be found is here: http://www.mepis.org/node/view/99 throughout this thread.
148 • u vs m and political problems (by billy on 2005-02-13 22:11:36 GMT from United States)
Okay, what I see is that WW offered (in November, after Bush was re-elected and it became inevitable that the backdoor draft would continue and a lot of people were going to be stuck in Iraq indefinitely) to give some free CDs to servicemen and their families. Is that all? Or does he somewhere say that he wants naked pictures of Condoleeza Rice, George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld cavorting to decorate his desktop (a la Ubuntu)? I feel kind of used by the poster above who wanted to use this to dramatize but to confuse the issue of WW's position on the GPL. Look, I send beef jerky to my cousin in Iraq, and I march against the war (and stopped eating meat around the time I stopped going to Fudd's). Maybe WW does the same, and anyway, even if WW were actually a Republicofascist, as seems unlikely, you're doing more to support that bunch every time you get into your car (here in Texas you have to drive to get to the nearest peace march) than you are by paying a MEPIS license.
Warren's objections to GPL sound like BS, but he doesn't seem to have bought a QT license just to get around GPL. He bought it to get a leg up on some KDE developers who were being "rude" and threatening to sue him. It really sounds as though he forgot to get legal advice until he was already in a diplomatic pickle with other developers. At one point in the 2003 discussion he said, "I'm not familiar with the 6 month rule but I think it would address any issues I have with the GPL license. I'll have to look into it." This was after some harsh criticism from MEPIS community members. The bottom line is that I was almost gullible thanks to some disinformation here. Why don't some of you people spread rumors about real villains?
149 • M ? U (by winsnomore on 2005-02-13 22:24:51 GMT from United States)
I have tried both Mepis & Ubuntu.
Ubuntu's WARTY install was(is) BRAIN-DEAD .. it wiped out the boot block before it was ready to write the image and never recoverd. This is NOT how a reasonably competent programmer codes.
Mepis installed everything cleanly .. twice (2004 and 3.3 test)
So with the horde of programmers purchased with those milllions of south-african money couldn't beat the lonely ranger from Morgantown .. need anyone say more ?
I am sure Mepis runs a very lean operation and that alone will carry it far .. much further than the other "paid" projects will.
And please cut out this nonsense about someone being philanthrophist and humanatarian .. WHO CARES ....
The hype of ubuntu is paid for with "free" install CD's in magazines and probably with some paid revewing and advertisments on the sites.
IMO Mephis is a MUCH better and cleaner distribution and I could really careless if Warren threw a fit or two and paid some trolls for trinkets to decorate his windows :-))
150 • Re: U v M (by Gnobian Ken00bie) (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-02-13 22:41:04 GMT from Italy)
So, I wonder, what is the situation now? From that thread it is not clear at all. Are there (relevant) parts of Mepis which are not open source?
All this would maybe explain why certain bugs have taken unusually long to be fixed, like the notorious "sound bug*
OT: I don't like the look, feel and behaviour of Mepis KDE very much. In some ways it reminds me of Fedora KDE.
151 • For the record (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-14 02:14:26 GMT from United States)
I'm not particularly interested in attacking Woodford. In fact a scroll through my posts will show me having complimented the quality of some of his work and having been the first to question the claim that he was necessarily actually endorsing the war in Iraq. And when the claim was made that he turned away someone inquiring about kernel source with the claim that a Trolltech license exempted him, I questioned that. I've repeatedly said that to my knowledge he hasn't violated the GPL and if so, he's within his rights to do as he sees fit.
I'm not at all enthused about his attitude in the thread I shared though I shared it only in response to others' follow-ups because it does leave things a bit unclear. People of course can decide for themselves what to make of it. Since I no longer use MEPIS, I cannot go in and do a careful audit to see how much of it is GPL, etc. Perhaps someone better informed about the current situation can do so.
To Winsnomore, I addressed your points and if all you can do is restate them... well, yawn.
152 • To anonymous Penguin in Italy (by Gnobian Ken00bie on 2005-02-14 02:25:47 GMT from United States)
I missed your post earlier. Quite right that that are distros ... including Debian-derived distros... apart from MEPIS and Ubuntu. Kanotix is EXCELLENT and there's now an amd64 version! I keep a "poor man" install" and "persistent home" for it on my hard drive and certainly would recommend it, particularly for those who prefer KDE.
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|• Issue 817 (2019-06-03): Manjaro 18.0.4, Ubuntu Security Podcast, new Linux laptops from Dell and System76, Entroware Apollo|
|• Issue 816 (2019-05-27): Red Hat Enterprise Linux 8.0, creating firewall rules, Antergos shuts down, Matthew Miller answers questions about Fedora|
|• Issue 815 (2019-05-20): Sabayon 19.03, Clear Linux's developer features, Red Hat explains MDS flaws, an overview of mobile distro options|
|• Issue 814 (2019-05-13): Fedora 30, distributions publish Firefox fixes, CentOS publishes roadmap to 8.0, Debian plans to use Wayland by default|
|• Issue 813 (2019-05-06): ROSA R11, MX seeks help with systemd-shim, FreeBSD tests unified package management, interview with Gael Duval|
|• Issue 812 (2019-04-29): Ubuntu MATE 19.04, setting up a SOCKS web proxy, Scientific Linux discontinued, Red Hat takes over Java LTS support|
|• Issue 811 (2019-04-22): Alpine 3.9.2, rsync examples, Ubuntu working on ZFS support, Debian elects new Project Leader, Obarun releases S6 tools|
|• Issue 810 (2019-04-15): SolydXK 201902, Bedrock Linux 0.7.2, Fedora phasing out Python 2, NetBSD gets virtual machine monitor|
|• Issue 809 (2019-04-08): PCLinuxOS 2019.02, installing Falkon and problems with portable packages, Mint offers daily build previews, Ubuntu speeds up Snap packages|
|• Issue 808 (2019-04-01): Solus 4.0, security benefits and drawbacks to using a live distro, Gentoo gets GNOME ports working without systemd, Redox OS update|
|• Issue 807 (2019-03-25): Pardus 17.5, finding out which user changed a file, new Budgie features, a tool for browsing FreeBSD's sysctl values|
|• Issue 806 (2019-03-18): Kubuntu vs KDE neon, Nitrux's znx, notes on Debian's election, SUSE becomes an independent entity|
|• Issue 805 (2019-03-11): EasyOS 1.0, managing background services, Devuan team debates machine ID file, Ubuntu Studio works to remain an Ubuntu Community Edition|
|• Issue 804 (2019-03-04): Condres OS 19.02, securely erasing hard drives, new UBports devices coming in 2019, Devuan to host first conference|
|• Issue 803 (2019-02-25): Septor 2019, preventing windows from stealing focus, NetBSD and Nitrux experiment with virtual machines, pfSense upgrading to FreeBSD 12 base|
|• Issue 802 (2019-02-18): Slontoo 18.07.1, NetBSD tests newer compiler, Fedora packaging Deepin desktop, changes in Ubuntu Studio|
|• Issue 801 (2019-02-11): Project Trident 18.12, the meaning of status symbols in top, FreeBSD Foundation lists ongoing projects, Plasma Mobile team answers questions|
|• Issue 800 (2019-02-04): FreeNAS 11.2, using Ubuntu Studio software as an add-on, Nitrux developing znx, matching operating systems to file systems|
|• Issue 799 (2019-01-28): KaOS 2018.12, Linux Basics For Hackers, Debian 10 enters freeze, Ubuntu publishes new version for IoT devices|
|• Issue 798 (2019-01-21): Sculpt OS 18.09, picking a location for swap space, Solus team plans ahead, Fedora trying to get a better user count|
|• Issue 797 (2019-01-14): Reborn OS 2018.11.28, TinyPaw-Linux 1.3, dealing with processes which make the desktop unresponsive, Debian testing Secure Boot support|
|• Issue 796 (2019-01-07): FreeBSD 12.0, Peppermint releases ISO update, picking the best distro of 2018, roundtable interview with Debian, Fedora and elementary developers|
|• Issue 795 (2018-12-24): Running a Pinebook, interview with Bedrock founder, Alpine being ported to RISC-V, Librem 5 dev-kits shipped|
|• Issue 794 (2018-12-17): Void 20181111, avoiding software bloat, improvements to HAMMER2, getting application overview in GNOME Shell|
|• Issue 793 (2018-12-10): openSUSE Tumbleweed, finding non-free packages, Debian migrates to usrmerge, Hyperbola gets FSF approval|
|• Issue 792 (2018-1203): GhostBSD 18.10, when to use swap space, DragonFly BSD's wireless support, Fedora planning to pause development schedule|
|• Issue 791 (2018-11-26): Haiku R1 Beta1, default passwords on live media, Slax and Kodachi update their media, dual booting DragonFly BSD on EFI|
|• Issue 790 (2018-11-19): NetBSD 8.0, Bash tips and short-cuts, Fedora's networking benchmarked with FreeBSD, Ubuntu 18.04 to get ten years of support|
|• Issue 789 (2018-11-12): Fedora 29 Workstation and Silverblue, Haiku recovering from server outage, Fedora turns 15, Debian publishes updated media|
|• Issue 788 (2018-11-05): Clu Linux Live 6.0, examining RAM consumpion, finding support for older CPUs, more Steam support for running Windows games on Linux, update from Solus team|
|• Full list of all issues|
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
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CPUBuilders Linux was a complete RPM-based Linux distribution designed for desktop or server applications. We strive to include as much great software as possible and provide an easier-to-use Linux experience without giving up any advanced functionality. Usable by beginners, hackable by experts, compatible with widely available Red Hat 9 and Fedora Core 1 packages, and easy to keep updated with the optional and inexpensive Cognitio update service.