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1 • My take on bloat (by Peter at 2004-08-02 06:13:34 GMT) |
Personaly I think that most of the bloat from current distributions comes from an avid reinvention of the wheel. There are a lot of people outhere that think they can make a rounder wheel so... instead of fixing the imperfections of current wheels they start their own version. There are also a lot of people that think that their wheels should contain like 90% of the car so... there is no wonder why the car is slow...
Let's take toolkits for a second.... Why is gtk 1 faster than gtk2? shouldn't there be a evolution? shouldn't a toolkit become as fast as posible? If the toolkit is slow how do you think the apps that use it will be?
I don't think people want different apps, what I think people want are different ways of interaction with their apps, think skins NOT services. So... Why not make their dreams come true?
2 • bloat (by Ajax Munroe at 2004-08-02 08:00:39 GMT)
nothing is worse than getting a lot of apps that you never use, distro's such as Redhat (yes, even the enterprise edition) put all these apps in by default. I know you can deselect them at install but somehow they seem to end up on your system anyway. the most bloated distro is Mandrake! the problem here is that Mandrake (and fedora core) take forever to install. and by the way.....Im sure if you took an HONEST pole you would find that Slackware is more popular than that overbloated sorry excuse for a distro called mandrake. over half of the applications installed on mandrake and fedora core are hidden, so unless your fairly adept at unix in general the average end user or newb would not see a lot of these apps anyway because you have to have command line experience. Slackware on the other hand gives you choices as to what will be on your machine. a word to newbs who are looking for a good distro...GET SLACKWARE....IT JUST WORKS!
3 • Bloat (by Non-Bloater on 2004-08-02 08:00:39 GMT)
I think it's great that they're experimenting with a smaller Kernal, I'd like to see distro's give this as an option when installing!! Would be great for smaller distro's needing the speed and the free ram!
4 • bloat (by Anonymous Coward on 2004-08-02 08:37:26 GMT)
1. I'm glad someone is doing something about the bloat. Its disgraceful that MSWin98 runs circles around GNU/L.
2. Stallman is da man.
3. Xfce rocks and is also ugly by default.
5 • musta been a slow week (by sn0n at 2004-08-02 08:40:37 GMT)
not much to read this week, still a good issue nonetheless. :: looks forward to next weeks ::
6 • Agreed - it's bloated. Must check out Linux Tiny :-) (by mr_pizza on 2004-08-02 08:56:54 GMT)
Yes, I'd have to agree that the kernel is pretty bloated. Not saying it ain't cool (I love it!), but it's certainly big.
I reckon that the pretty-new "Contiki" o/s could be a real winner. At present, it's aimed at embedded and small devices, but it could be very interesting on a PC.
I **love** to see tiny size and elegance (not just in the kernel, but in general). An example is the Rebol programming language. About 500k or so, but has a GUI, supports email and every web protocol around, and *very* concise and elegant syntax. But, it's proprietary (sigh ... ). There *are* a couple of open-source Rebol-like languages (check out "r-sharp" and "freebell" on sourceforge - both seem to be dead, but the code *is* still there - freebell has code in cvs even though it says "no files released". If you *love* tiny-but-elegant packages, these are a couple of neat little gems, just waiting for someone to grab 'em and show what they can do.
Anyway - I've strayed a bit off-topic - sorry about that ... ;-)
7 • "bloat" (by DR on 2004-08-02 09:07:09 GMT)
The real bloat is in your minds guys! Without all these kernel, gtk2, qt features u would sadly cry and switch back to windows. Think about how bad gnome became after all this uncluttering. It sucks. KDE still rocks and gets better and better because of the bloat u hate so much. And your so bloated kernel is the best solution for servers and desktops.
8 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2004-08-02 10:00:20 GMT)
>>The real bloat is in your minds guys! Without all these kernel, gtk2, qt features u would sadly cry and switch back to windows.
Then why are the system requirements for win95/98 lower than most distros? It wasn't "ease of use" that almost forced me back to MSW, it was SPEED.
9 • other small 50mb distros (by Stan on 2004-08-02 10:13:57 GMT)
I'm glad somone else likes fvwm!
please check out AUSTRUMI live cd 50mb thingie
It uses fvwm and has Gimp Abiword and Mplayer all running fine from bootable business card that self loads to ram then autoejects. It has kernel 2.6.7 and plays all divX codex Cd's great
I always carry it incase somone hasnt got ac3 and divX on their PC so i can always play some divx cd's on anyones machine.
Better than DSL ?
I think so in my huble opinion. i dont like the way DSL has focused on installing "extra" stuff by downloading.
Whats the point in that? may as well carry Knoppix around and have it all on CD in the first place.
I just wanted as much as I can carry on a 50mb disk and Austrumi (or LUIT for that matter) does it.
I wish these two distros would get more recognition as everyone thinks 50mb cds = DSL
I dont want to start an argument here. DSL is great for what it is and its definitely pushed the benchmark higher and higher for a mini distro. A lot of work has gone into DSL that has filtered onto other projects (feather and INsert)
But please also consider Luit and Austrumi
10 • Bloated kernel?? (by FlS on 2004-08-02 10:23:35 GMT)
I'm wondering if a smaller kernel will make a computer so much faster.
If we look at start-up times, we see the kernel is loaded in a few seconds. It's the rest that takes ages: detecting new hardware, initialising eth0, ... I think these processes should be combined (multitasking) in order not to wait for timeouts etc.
Finally I believe that X11 is quite fat too. It may have a lot of potential but as a desktop-user, I only use 20% of its features. I'm really waiting for a small X11(like firefox for mozilla), but I don't hold my breath...
11 • No subject (by Michael Magua at 2004-08-02 11:23:34 GMT)
just use gentoo :/
12 • Bloat in kernel (by Anonymous on 2004-08-02 13:30:12 GMT)
NetBSD has this cool script called "adjustkernel" that takes a look into your dmesg and then optimizes the kernel config file for your hardware. IMO, Linux needs something similar.
BTW, could someone fix the FVWM screenshot link. Thanks.
13 • Bloat? Try Gentoo (by Beavis on 2004-08-02 13:47:24 GMT)
Binary Kernel release are HUGE!. They have to be generic enough to support a wide range of hardware.
If you are worried about Kernel bloat, then you are likely smart enough to use Gentoo Linux. You can easily reduce the size of the Kernel by compiling it from source and installing only the drivers you need.
14 • How to beat Eliza (I give up) ir become evasive (by John Coombes at 2004-08-02 15:10:28 GMT)
I have to admit Eliza is not new to me as I have played with it before years ago on Amstrad CPM machines with 2 floppy and no HDDs at all (pre-DOS). I have even customised a a version for a vintage car club, so the replies to keywords are all related to the types of vintage car and their parts. I offer the following just to point out that although very cleaver, Eliza is not infallable, and you can make it give it self away [just one other simple example of where Eliza gives it self away is that it repeats your spelling mistakes :-( ]
BTW - for the following I ran the command line type "emacs".out of Mandrake-Linux as noted above
I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems.
Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice.
I have a headack
Why do you say you have a headack?
you gave it to me
Is it because of your plans that you say I gave it to you?
no you just did
Maybe your life have something to do with this.
no it is all your fault doctor
What makes you believe it is all my fault doctor?
because you are a doctor
Is it because I am a doctor that you came to me?
no it was Eliza
Eliza? Hah! I would appreciate it if you would continue.
no your turn
Earlier you said I am a doctor?
a hoorible doctor
Is it because of the people you hang around with that you are going through all this?
no it is your fault
Is it because of problems at school that you say it is my fault?
no you are just a trouble make
You mentioned that I am a doctor?
all doctors are triuble makers
How do you reconcile any hobbies you have?
nothing to do with hobbies, just all doctors are trouble makers
Are you sure that that?
Do you really think I am a doctor?
no just a trouble maker
Perhaps this has something to do with your sex life?
no its because of you
Can you elaborate on that?
because you are a trouble maker
Does it bother you that I am a trouble maker?
no you are just shit
Perhaps you could watch your tongue!
no you are the trouble maker not me
What makes you think I am the trouble maker not you?
necause I am perfict and you are the trouble maker, obvious is it not
Earlier you said I am a doctor?
all doctors are trouble makers, so as a trouble maker, you must be a doctor
Possibly hangups you have are related to this.
no it is your hangups (like all doctors)
Is it because of your inhibitions that you say it is my hangups like
no you are just a computer program so it does not matter at all
You have your mind on computers, it seems.
no stupid programs
You mentioned that I am a trouble maker?
sure it is obvious is it not
Is it because of some problems in your childhood that you are going through all this?
no it is your problem
Why do you say it is my problem?
because you are a stupid program that just feeds words back
When did you first know that I am a stupid program that just feeds
before I started as I have use Eliza before
Are you sure?
I see... Well, what makes you believe this is so?
I am god
Are you sure that I am a doctor?
Yes, hmmm... so, do you really think this is so?
I understand. So what makes you think this is so?
Oh. ...And why do you say this is so?
I see... Then what makes you believe this is so?
Yes, well, are you sure that this is so?
I understand. Hmmm... so, do you really think this is so?
Have you been just trying to see what kind of things I have in my
vocabulary? Please try to carry on a reasonable conversation!
I give up. You need a lesson in creative writing...
I give up. You need a lesson in creative writing...
I give up. You need a lesson in creative writing...
I give up. You need a lesson in creative writing...
I give up. You need a lesson in creative writing...
As you see the whole thing is giving it self away as just a clever program, but it is a Fun thing to give to a newbie PLUS you can go into it and change its reply to the key words that a user types in. For the vintage car club, Eliza would ask "what do you drive" use would answer "Yes blar blar" Then Eliza would say "then it must be a three speeder, is that correct" - the User would be amazed that the computer knew the difference between a two speeder and a three speeder !!!! Of course it was just many hours of my father and I changing the pre-set progrem ask/replies/etc. You to could set an Eliza up for your club-school-work-whatever simple but time consuming stuff :-)
15 • Bloat (by Rogelio on 2004-08-02 15:26:17 GMT)
I don't believe it's bloated but it does have potential to being bloated. That is a reasonable request to developers to keep it simple (KISS) as much as possible.
16 • Eliza os online (by John Coombes at 2004-08-02 15:26:38 GMT)
For those intrested, from the third item or so, in a google search for Eliza
and yes the author know she is dumb :-)
17 • bloat... (by anonymous coward at 2004-08-02 15:50:50 GMT)
I have been using gentoo for sometime now and I agree re-compiling will save you space but all distros will give you the tools to do so.
for me I've never had to much problems with boot time
it was for the interface I use cause I am a eye candy freak..
I find the bloat in two places KDE, XFREE
first, xfree... has xeyes, xmagnafier, xkill, x...... none of which I've ever used!!! and the size alone is huge
secondly is kde, which seems to think people need more than one editor (kate, kedit, kwrite) and their dependancies are crap... I've had to install kdegames to have the utilities installed. Another example is the new change to kmail over to kdepim.... Which is the only software I use in that package.
This results in a very bloated start menu and alot of disk space wasted on apps I will never use.
gnome is a tad better with those issues but I don't find it quite as easy to use..
18 • Eliza (by Marcel at 2004-08-02 15:56:34 GMT)
Nice to see Eliza after all these years!
I remember running it on a TRS80 around '80. Anyone remember that computer, made by Tandy back then. I suddenly realise I'm growing old......
19 • FVWM2 in SuSE (by Ariszló at 2004-08-02 15:58:49 GMT)
SAX2, SuSE's X configuration tool, requries FVWM2 :)
20 • No subject (by p-Lo on 2004-08-02 16:41:19 GMT)
In Windows XP, I generally keep my total number of processes down to around 20 when not doing anything - in linux, running kde, there are over 40 when doing nothing. And at least half of them start with "k", so i know where they come from... its probably a good time to find another window manager....
21 • Bloat (by Abel on 2004-08-02 16:43:28 GMT)
Personally, I use FC2 and Debian. FC2 is very bloated... but you know what, it's not really the kernel, it's all the stupid programs (and that damn redhat icon) that they put in. But the kernel isn't bad if you just copy your .config file and rebuild the kernel off of that.
What I wish they would start doing in distros is offer a 'multi-kernel' option in the installation, what i mean by that is have five options 'default' 'home pc' 'workstation' 'server' 'custom' and what it will do is do different kernel configurations for each one, with the option of adding a few things after you select which one you want.
It would be nice, since i don't use 90% of the default kernel stuff... and i would like to have it customize it just for my computer (no bluetooth, no Intel, no ATI, no ISA, etc....) it would be nice...
maybe one day.
22 • I could have danced all night... (by Mike on 2004-08-02 18:02:02 GMT)
1. Most kernel bloat can be removed with a recompile. Well, a lot anyway. Tiny may be great for embedded systems but most of us don't use those.
2. I don't see why an entirely new e-mail system would break the old one. We have lots of IM systems running these days - they work alright. There'd be a slow change-over, it wouldn't need to be overnight at all. I can cope with two mail servers running at once.
3. My Fair Lady is NOT a "nearly-forgotten" musical. In fact it recently had a successful run in the west end, though Martine McCutcheon (sp?) is no Audrey Hepburn - not by a long way...
23 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2004-08-02 20:36:25 GMT)
I remember an Eliza variant called Dr. Sbatso which shipped with old Sound Blaster Cards. It had text to speech with it so it would say its reponses back to you. Interesting but very stupid program.
24 • mandrake (by buggs on 2004-08-02 21:36:07 GMT)
mandrake does not take forever to install. it's faster then a lot of distros I've seen or heard of. Allthough it is slower then some too. but it's fairly fast.
25 • Chatterbots & artificial intelligence (by Penguin on 2004-08-02 21:57:40 GMT)
Eliza is old and should get retired... If you're interested in her many (more competent) children and children's children, see for example.:
Perhaps the best such chatterbot is A.L.I.C.E: http://alicebot.org/ . You can talk to "her" here: http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=f5d922d97e345aa1
As you can see from the sites mentioned above, the correct word for such programs is really a chatterbot. True AI = "artificial intelligence" is something else than what simple chatterbots are capable of doing. The best things that true AI programs can do nowadays (and for a long time in the future) are tasks like data mining, and organizing big complex amounts of data and information to help people make better use of it.
It is true that in the not so distant past some reductionistic scientists tried to reduce the human thinking and the essence human socio-psychological being into a few computational rules, and called it artificial intelligence, but that mission was a big mistake from the start. Being a human is simply much, much more than some simple rules that you can simulate on your Amiga... Humans are not just biomechanical things who act according to a few simple rules that can be simaleted with computers. But the ultra-materialistic people didn't want to accept that, fearing that accepting the multilevel complexity of human being would give road to non-rational metaphysics like religion. So the mission was also to prove that humans are really only such simple biomechanical beings that can be thorougly analyzed and even simulated by scientists. But gladly the blindest days of such reductionist materialism seem to be gone now.
For those interested in the history of chatterbots and their relationship to AI, I can recommend this educational and amusing article, "Artificial Stupidity" by John Sundman: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/02/26/loebner_part_one/index.html (part 1)
26 • bloat... (by bhrich902 on 2004-08-02 21:57:43 GMT)
from my own experience, i find that bloat is a problem thats distro related more than kernel. i can think of two systems that i've successfully managed to install and use on a daily basis. i got my feet wet on mandrake and from installation to dafault use (default install), there where a lot i didnt need, specially daemons that take some time to start on every boot up, granted if u are an experienced user u know how to make them go away, but more importantly what to make go away, but for most linux newbs thats a problem. not so much for me at the begginning cause i just wanted to boot into a linux system more than anything and then start trimming here and there. after that i realized that i could prolly try something a little more challenging, so i did by picking up arch linux, which is considered more of a power user distro. for someone coming from mandrake, it really wasnt as daunting as the writing makes it out to be. the default install leaves you with a base system that boots into console. the kernel, again which really has not much to do with speed of boot in my opinion, is very light, and since the distro is i686 and has both option of intalling packages, binary (which makes for a fast way of setting a system up, take that gentoo ;p) and source, u really get some more choice as to how thin or bloated u need your system. point is that i had set both mandrake and arch with the same apps that i needed and kde, and found arch to boot much faster (from push of the power button into a default kde desktop). i think that distros have their things and a lot plays into the fact that a system can become bloated, not just being the kernel, because obviously u can just whip up a custom one no matter what system u use, yes thas right gentoo ;P, no matter what system. anyways, i thought id throw in my 2 cents, tho i tried to slim down the story, it still came out too long, my bad....
27 • The bastion of fvwm... (by grayrest at 2004-08-02 22:50:04 GMT)
is in the gentoo forums (http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=80517), it's the longest running thread that I know of in the desktop environments area and it's virtually always on the front page. I started messing with it and then decided that I liked wmi (http://wm-i.org) better. I'm pleased with wmi because the entire wm comes up on my laptop before the gnome splash screen does.
28 • SPF (by Howard at 2004-08-03 03:17:27 GMT)
As an email admin I would second the paranoia surounding M$. I think they should just release the code. My Question is, Why on earth is the IETF considering anything as a "standard" that comes attached to a single vendor? It should not be possible for any vendor to create a protocol, patent it, and then have the IETF MAKE me buy it from that vendor by saying that it is a standard.
29 • one voice many faces (by Anonymous on 2004-08-03 07:15:30 GMT)
Gandolfo, please stick to one nickname, you keep singing the same song anyway.
30 • Sysop Eliza (by Robbage at 2004-08-03 16:01:53 GMT)
Some BBS's (pre-internet) used to come with an Eliza-like Sysop feature for users to talk to when the Sysop was not available. I read a number of logs of these sessions where the user didn't realise they were talking to a program. Some sessions went on for 5 or 10 minutes until the user finally called the 'Sysop' a rude name and logged off thinking the Sysop was an idiot .
I also had a version of Eliza on a Commodore 'Pet' (That was long before the VIC-20 & C64)
31 • Linux Kernel Size (by wouter on 2004-08-04 05:32:41 GMT)
When you carefully compile a kernel with only the features and drivers you need, even disabling modules, it really isn't that big. Surely, a lot smaller than some other popular operating systems. Kernel size is neglectable, compared to user land - unless, indeed, you run on a 4mb machine.
It's just that people waste their memory by using overloaded stock kernels, installing too many modules, and run daemons for everything and the kitchen sink. I also suspect some usb and other peripherals suck more cpu than years ago, because they load more functions in the CPU instead of internal circuitery (but I'm not an expert here).
Recent Gnome eats most of my memory, and Mozilla's memory use is montrous too at times (just picking this one because of recent experiences). Then, enter such performance and resource killers like those eye-candy desklets, often written in scripting languages... And it's no surprise modern day desktops run actually slower (wallclock-wise) than those 10 years ago.
32 • You sold the Libretto CT50?!? (by Nick on 2004-08-04 17:45:29 GMT)
Weak man.. :'( *sniffle* I love my HP Omnibook 4000C.. runs Slack 9.1 (will upgrade later) dx4 100mhz 486 24mb 512MB hd.. 28.8Kbps & 10Mbps.. so what if i run it off 12VDC lead acid with an inverter & had to remove the hinges, i'm still attached to it :') I can't believe you sold the Libretto.. lappys have feelings too ya know?
33 • new linux mandrake PPC? (by luddite at 2004-08-04 20:41:42 GMT)
Sorry this is a bit random.
Got a pre-G3 mac. Considering mandrake linux PPC (PowerPC). However, Mandrake PPC seems to be "stuck" at 9.1, but we are at version 10 for x86.
Any distrowatch visitors know anything about a newer version of linux mandrake for PPC? I couldn't find any info on the official mandrake site.
Grateful for any info.
34 • Linux Kernel Size (by Da Wini G at 2004-08-06 23:35:04 GMT)
Saying the kernel is too big is rubbish .... if you compile the kernel with support for everything then of course it will be huge ... but you can have a small kernel if you know what your hardware is & you dont include unneccessary drivers .
A kernel from 1991 wont be able to run on a multiprocessor system from today ... but a kernel from nowadays can run ancient hardware ... you may have to find a driver esspecially as it might no longer be included in the sources ... but it should work .
What makes the Linux (Desktop) experience slow is mainly as far as I know the Xserver system .... which .. my guess .. brings several unneccessary layers such as network transparency between graphical elements and their final representation ....
Kernel ,command-line & file systems arent at all slow .. its the Graphics-Server .
I'll stop moaning . :-)
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|• Issue 806 (2019-03-18): Kubuntu vs KDE neon, Nitrux's znx, notes on Debian's election, SUSE becomes an independent entity|
|• Issue 805 (2019-03-11): EasyOS 1.0, managing background services, Devuan team debates machine ID file, Ubuntu Studio works to remain an Ubuntu Community Edition|
|• Issue 804 (2019-03-04): Condres OS 19.02, securely erasing hard drives, new UBports devices coming in 2019, Devuan to host first conference|
|• Issue 803 (2019-02-25): Septor 2019, preventing windows from stealing focus, NetBSD and Nitrux experiment with virtual machines, pfSense upgrading to FreeBSD 12 base|
|• Issue 802 (2019-02-18): Slontoo 18.07.1, NetBSD tests newer compiler, Fedora packaging Deepin desktop, changes in Ubuntu Studio|
|• Issue 801 (2019-02-11): Project Trident 18.12, the meaning of status symbols in top, FreeBSD Foundation lists ongoing projects, Plasma Mobile team answers questions|
|• Issue 800 (2019-02-04): FreeNAS 11.2, using Ubuntu Studio software as an add-on, Nitrux developing znx, matching operating systems to file systems|
|• Issue 799 (2019-01-28): KaOS 2018.12, Linux Basics For Hackers, Debian 10 enters freeze, Ubuntu publishes new version for IoT devices|
|• Issue 798 (2019-01-21): Sculpt OS 18.09, picking a location for swap space, Solus team plans ahead, Fedora trying to get a better user count|
|• Issue 797 (2019-01-14): Reborn OS 2018.11.28, TinyPaw-Linux 1.3, dealing with processes which make the desktop unresponsive, Debian testing Secure Boot support|
|• Issue 796 (2019-01-07): FreeBSD 12.0, Peppermint releases ISO update, picking the best distro of 2018, roundtable interview with Debian, Fedora and elementary developers|
|• Issue 795 (2018-12-24): Running a Pinebook, interview with Bedrock founder, Alpine being ported to RISC-V, Librem 5 dev-kits shipped|
|• Issue 794 (2018-12-17): Void 20181111, avoiding software bloat, improvements to HAMMER2, getting application overview in GNOME Shell|
|• Issue 793 (2018-12-10): openSUSE Tumbleweed, finding non-free packages, Debian migrates to usrmerge, Hyperbola gets FSF approval|
|• Issue 792 (2018-1203): GhostBSD 18.10, when to use swap space, DragonFly BSD's wireless support, Fedora planning to pause development schedule|
|• Issue 791 (2018-11-26): Haiku R1 Beta1, default passwords on live media, Slax and Kodachi update their media, dual booting DragonFly BSD on EFI|
|• Full list of all issues|
Star Labs - Laptops built for Linux.
View our range including the Star Lite, Star LabTop and more. Available with a choice of Ubuntu, Linux Mint or Zorin OS pre-installed with many more distributions supported. Visit Star Labs for information, to buy and get support.
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SmartOS is an open-source UNIX-like operating system based on illumos, a community fork of OpenSolaris. It features four technologies - ZFS (a combined file system and logical volume manager), DTrace (a dynamic tracing framework for troubleshooting kernel and application problems), Zones (a lightweight virtualisation solution) and KVM (a full virtualisation solution for running a variety of guest operating systems, including Linux, Windows, BSD and Plan9). SmartOS is designed to be particularly suitable for building clouds and generating appliances.