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1 • T-Shirts (by Leo on 2004-01-12 15:27:47 GMT)
Hey Folks, have you taken a look at the DistroWatch T-Shirts (Ladislav pointed a link above) ? Really really nice, ideal gift for your friends, lovers and whatnot ;-)
2 • you could say the very same thing about every distro (by John Helms at 2004-01-12 15:31:07 GMT)
This is a great site. Plenty of information about all the various distros, up to date and informative. Your comments about Xandros are off base. I am not going to waste time pointing out where their contributions are and what they are. I am instead going to say that you need to widen your "contributions" statement to include EVERY distribution listed on this site. Rather than singling out one why don't you make that statement about all of them since you likely have no more proof the rest are contributing any more than you have proof Xandros is not.
3 • BitDefender (by Folle Rec at 2004-01-12 15:31:52 GMT)
I understand BitDefender has released a "distro-on-disk" that has a full suite of anti-virus features, as well as read/write support of NTFS. Would this count as a Linux distro (it is Knoppix based).
About Xandros... even if they don't contribute back to the community, I have no problems with them. It is a matter of choice. That is their choice, to not contribute back. As long as their product can access any other Linux machines, and any other Linux machines have no trouble with Xandros machines, then no problem. Once it turns proprietary, that will be the time to not give them any praise. Maybe others can try and copy the good things they are doing instead.
4 • xandros (by Xandros user on 2004-01-12 18:00:37 GMT)
Take it easy......
Xandros is still a very young company and they have contributed back many fixes and enhancements to the major products.
I don't think they are profitable enough to monetarily sponsor projects to any great extent, but to tell the truth, I really think that they will in the future.
Sure, they're the same age as Lindows, but lindows was founded with much more money and are probably making significantly more than xandros as well.
As long as they continue to contribute code back to the community, they're doing their part. Anything else is gravy...
5 • Xandros (by Latch at 2004-01-12 18:03:12 GMT)
(General) First we expected them to give us what we want for cash.
(Linux) Then we expected them to give us what we want for free.
(Xandros) Now we expect them to give us what we want for free, and also give cash to open source projects?
Next you'll want the newest release delivered to your house by the Xandros company president, on shiny new platinum-coated CDs.
6 • xandros (by jxn at 2004-01-12 19:05:26 GMT)
until they generate any real profit (which I don't think they're doing), I don't feel insulted by xandros's alleged lack of contribution. Sponsoring other projects is great (hell, I think everyone should donate to oss projects they use), but I don't know how much financial freedom Xandros has got. Last time i heard (probably no reliable source...but, it's all I've heard) they were in kind of a crunch. I personally would rather use a distro who gives back and reward them for it...I don't think I'll be buying xandros, but I'd be more likely to if they gave back. ultimately, it's their prerogative.
7 • RE:you could say the very same thing about every distro (by tymiles@yahoo.com at 2004-01-12 19:33:34 GMT)
Not true. Yes you can get on a LOT of companies but at the same time like SUSE who put a large part of their Yast tool out in GPL there are a LOT of companies who do give back.
Like it says in the article you can see who supports who by their sponsorship. Even if it's not money!
I mean hey, Gaim did a ton of work on their IM client for instance, then you are going to put it in your OS, tweak it etc! Then charge people for it and not give Gaim anything at all back, not even the tweaks! Come on, that is not right!
Even if it's just design ideas, tweaks, better installer ideas. Even just recompiles or mirrors for Gaim to host their software. Give something back. Geee!
8 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2004-01-12 20:19:00 GMT)
>not give Gaim anything at all back, not even the tweaks!
Sorry but that's simply not true. Gaim is GPL, Xandros nor anyone else can't change the code and then not release it back without being in violation of the lisence. Where did you get the information that Xandros has changed Gaim code and not released it back?
9 • re: you could say the very same thing about every distro (by Elijah Newren at 2004-01-12 20:26:12 GMT)
I believe John Helms' comments are off base, and I totally disagree with the assertion in the subject of his message (i.e. that the same thing Ladislav said about Xandros could be said about every distro)--Ladislav even gave examples to show why it wasn't true for some of the major distros. I could provide more if that isn't enough for you.
Also,John, if you believe Xandros has given things away to the community, then why don't you provide some proof? While I don't agree with everything Ladislav says, I have found that he doesn't make statements without having the research to back them up. Personally, I can't speak about Xandros because I know little about it. But if you want to disprove Ladislav's statements, all you need to do is provide one counter-example.
10 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2004-01-12 20:47:22 GMT)
Xandros conforms to the GPL. That's all they are required to do. As a still small for-profit company they can not and should not release thier proprietary code. I don't think they're any position to simply give away either money or the code that is the foundation of thier distro.
11 • There are some other distros do not even comply GPL (by sundar on 2004-01-12 23:18:44 GMT)
If a distro uses GPL, it should make the sources available. ( I am not taking about their properierty code/apps).
There are some distros, do not show sources they are using with their distro.
They should make the source code available (what ever they use) along with their compiled binaries to recreate the distros. I like only those kind of distros.
12 • The Xandros source code is here (by cc at 2004-01-13 01:30:35 GMT)
The Xandros source code is here:
http://www.xandros.com/source_code.html
They have fulfilled their GPL obligations.
Is that enough? I think that is an individual decision of each user. But if that is the criterion you want to apply, then I agree with previous posters that it should be applied equally and evenly to /all/ distributions.
Is there a table at distrowatch.com which lists each distribution and all of the open source projects which it sponsors? I have a hunch that, with a few notable exceptions, the vast majority of disributions don't do much outside sponsorship. Where are all those projects that Libranet is supporting? (And I don't mean to pick on Libranet -- it is an outstanding distribution.)
13 • re: you could say the very same thing about every distro (by Elijah Newren at 2004-01-13 01:48:06 GMT)
I believe John Helms' comments are off base, and I totally disagree with the assertion in the subject of his message (i.e. that the same thing Ladislav said about Xandros could be said about every distro)--Ladislav even gave examples to show why it wasn't true for some of the major distros. I could provide more if that isn't enough for you.
Also,John, if you believe Xandros has given things away to the community, then why don't you provide some proof? While I don't agree with everything Ladislav says, I have found that he doesn't make statements without having the research to back them up. Personally, I can't speak about Xandros because I know little about it. But if you want to disprove Ladislav's statements, all you need to do is provide one counter-example.
14 • Xandros - a community player (by ladislav at 2004-01-13 03:39:44 GMT)
It seems that the majority of you feel that there is nothing wrong with a commercial Linux company not sponsoring Open Source projects or releasing some of their work under GPL. Personally, I'd rather support a company that does so, but if you disagree, fair enough. I won't bring up the subject again.
15 • Taking without giving anything back can be OK (by Robert Lindsay at 2004-01-13 08:04:27 GMT)
I know everyone will feel free to correct me if I'm wrong ;-)
One of linux's main strengths is its freely shared and modified nature which encourages everyone to contribute. That may be in the way of code, patches, graphics/icons, bug reports, ftp space, ideas etc. (just about anything really).
Taking without giving anything back can be OK. There will always be a certain percentage who just take, so no point worrying about it. But what happens if the percentage who take everyone elses contributions and withhold their products/distros from the those who provided 95-99% of the code - becomes the norm?
Another worrying trend is indemnification - as in Novell and HP's indemnification. Big companies intending to sell linux to the business community en masse but with a contract that prevents these companies from making any modifications (and in turn giving back any improvements.) Question: Is it still linux if it can't grow?
It's all too easy to lose sight of thousand of individual projects that are constantly evolving thanks to the enthusiastic communities of developers and users who form around and nuture these projects. This is really the soul of Gnu Linux!
I sometimes wonder why harvesting and culling the work of others into a more or less polished commercial distro ( with strings attached) commands so much loyalty. Perhaps marketing has become increasingly more important than development.
That's my 2 cents worth. BTW just because I prefer the sweat to the spin doesn't mean I'm completely against the commercialisation of linux - I'm just allergic to lock in and inertia.
Best regards to everyone in 2004
rob
16 • Jamd and Ares Desktop (by I_love_linux on 2004-01-13 08:59:24 GMT)
Ladislav,
what happened to Jamd and Ares Desktop is called 'a merger'
That could have been the case if Jim Luchas was one of the developers of Ares Desktop.
But he has decided not to, for wathever reason.
So lets call things with their name: Jamd linux is no more, is a discontinued distribution.
And there is a NEW distro in town called 'Ares Desktop'
Just for the sake of clarity.
17 • More About Xandros (by Sergio G on 2004-01-13 09:16:41 GMT)
Come on people!
This might be slightly offtopic, but I have read the Xandros license agreement and it sounds incredibly similar to the Microsoft EULA, it gives me the creeps.
From which point of view is Xandros still an open source project? Maybe from the point of view that it USES open source...
18 • Xandros (by Rich~! at 2004-01-13 11:36:44 GMT)
I might be wrong, but I remember that a lot of people that work closely with Xandros also contrbute heavily to the WINE project. In fact, I think that there is a close relationship between Codeweavers and Xandros (owned b the same group).
Also, the reason that Xandros has the licensing they have is because they have a LOT of commercial Linux programs in the distro - namely Crossover Office and Crossover Plugin.
AFAIK, the version without the Crossover is a lot cheaper. Given what they do, a totally "free download" version would be little different from a Mepis/Libranet/Knoppix hard drive install.
SO the distro isn't Free as in beer. I think it's worth the money, the sources to the GPL portion of the software is made available and it just works, especially when you don't want to waste a lot of time configuring and tweaking.
19 • RE: Xandros (by Rich~!) (by Tyrone Miles at 2004-01-13 13:26:42 GMT)
Codeweavers and Xandros are 2 different companies (And that is why you get almost no discount on the price of Crossover.)
As a matter of fact Lindows gave Codeweavers $500,000 when the company first started up to help with Wine dev. But Crossover did not end up in Lindows because of problems between Lindows and Crossover on price.
My question is has anyone tried to make workable OS from the Xandros source? That way once and for all everyone will know how much they give back.
20 • Editorials (by Leo on 2004-01-13 17:26:00 GMT)
Dear Ladislav
May I make a small suggestion ? How about a separate section with editorials ? Even if it goes in the "dw weekly" section, how about a separate subsection, with different background colour, clearly separated from the rest.
I suggest this for the following reason; people come to DW for info, rather than for opinion, primarily. Some users seem to get upset with your editorials, and perhaps the reason is that they think you are giving your opinions as part of the rest of the objective informational content.
Splitting your own opinions apart from the rest of the objective info might be the way to go
Anyway, my 2 cts
21 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2004-01-13 17:55:16 GMT)
>My question is has anyone tried to make workable OS from the Xandros source? That way once and for all everyone will know how much they give back.
That wouldn't prove anything at all. You'd have a mixed debian distro without an installer, how would that prove anything about how much Xandros has contributed back to open source? Xandros contributes thier changes back to the community as required by the GPL, just as a lot of other distros do.
Here's a list of KDE commits from the Xandros:
http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-cvs&w=2&r=1&s=xandros&q=b
22 • RE: 'Editorials' by Leo (by Sergio G at 2004-01-13 23:17:34 GMT)
I disagree.
This is Ladislav's web site, his 'home' and we can't deny him the right to utter an opinion.
After all DW weekly is not any different than any weekly magazine where you would find editorials.
Besides info without opinions is almost impossible, unless it is generated by a computer. And even a computer will reflect the opinions of one or more programmers (Debian apt for instance shows a sort of 'personality')
Besides I want to hear Ladislav's opinions, without having to look for them elsewhere, because to the best of my understanding they are always in the best interest of the linux community and the respect of true open source spirit.
Without men like him very soon linux would be no different than M$.
Just read the Xandros licence agreement to convince yourself.
23 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2004-01-14 04:24:22 GMT)
>Without men like him very soon linux would be no different than M$.
Just read the Xandros licence agreement to convince yourself.
Which is shorter, less restrictive and less filled with legalese than the Lindows licence, yet no one seems bothered by that.
http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_OSEULA.php
24 • RE: RE: 'Editorials' (by Leo on 2004-01-14 15:19:41 GMT)
Sergio
I think we disagree less than you think, but you also missinterpreted my post. I know Ladislav, I very much respect him, I may or may not disagree with what he says now or then but he seems to be a very ethical person.
The point is, I never meant that he should NOT express his opinions. In fact I am just suggesting that it might be a idea to separate purely editorial from mainly informative pieces.
You have a point, providing information always is subjective to some extent, and I know it, but there are degrees of objectiveness. Look, take a good newspaper, the one you mostly respect. You'll find that they have news (as objective as they can try to make them), but they also have one or two editorial articles per edition. I was suggesting the same for DW. That's all.
Also, Ladislav has made such a fantastic website because he *listens*. He takes good ideas from suggestions here and there and implement them if they make sense to him.
Finally, I do agree with the general sentiment of his editorial on Xandros, with some differences, but this is a different story.
thanks
Leo
25 • Xandros (by Sauja on 2004-01-14 15:33:07 GMT)
Rob,
Good post. Clear and articulate and most of all just.
As to your question: "I sometimes wonder why harvesting and culling the work of others into a more or less polished commercial distro ( with strings attached) commands so much loyalty?"
All I can say is this: It just works. You take it out of the box, but the CD in and go. For Joe user, that is enough to command loyalty.
Sergio G.
I'm glad you read the Shoot Out on OSNews, no doubt where you heard about Xandros Licence, to bad the author failed to not that it is very similar to the Lycoris, Lindows and a pile of other distro's, (excepte as pointed out Libranet, which in essence says the same thing).
All,
Whether Xandros complies with the GPL is not in question. If it was the could be legal action.
What is being put in to question is whether GPL compliance is enough. Or is contributing fixes and patches enough. Or to be a community player, must a company sponsor or lead a GPL project. Where is the line? I certainly don' t know.
The fact is neither the author or any posting here (myself included) seems has any idea (or proof for that matter) just how much or how little Xandros, (or Lycoris, or Ark, or many other distros) actually contribute back to the community.
Sauja
26 • RE: Xandros (by ladislav at 2004-01-14 16:48:45 GMT)
The fact is neither the author or any posting here (myself included) seems has any idea (or proof for that matter) just how much or how little Xandros, (or Lycoris, or Ark, or many other distros) actually contribute back to the community.
I think it's essential to separate community projects from commercial companies. Ark is a community project - everything they do is out there on the servers and everybody can have it at no cost. It would be unfair to demand that they support an Open Source project with cash, since they don't make any money off Ark Linux. Ark Linux _is_ the community.
This is not the case with Xandros, Lindows, Lycoris, Libranet and other commercial companies. Because they are taking free software from the community and because they make (or attempt to make) money off it, it would be only fair if they set aside a percentage of their income to support Open Source projects. It's not a requirement and it won't break the GPL if they don't. But it would be nice. If they don't make any money, they could release some of their code under GPL. Or some other gesture that would say: "thank you for all the free software we've taken from the Linux community, here is something to show our appreciation".
Of course, they don't have to. But judging by some of the posts above, many people don't understand this concept.
27 • Re: 'Xandros' by Sauja (by Sergio.G on 2004-01-15 06:23:26 GMT)
Yes, I read that review, but I happened also to read personally THE REAL THING, BEFORE that review.
28 • Indian Giver! (by Mike on 2004-01-15 17:32:52 GMT)
Sorry, native American giver.
I'm a leech. I use Linux all the time and I haven't contributed one iota back. And I could too, I'm a programmer, I understand this stuff. Hell, I use Linux for my work. There's loads of people like me. Linux needs us. We swell the ranks. If the Linux community can't cope with their work being greedily commercialised, they'd better shut up moaning about Microsoft, becuase they'll never challenge Windows if they don't allow themselves to be exploited.
Xandros has contributed something very valuable that can't be counted in lines of code. They've helped bring Unix to the masses. Don't overlook it.
Incidentally, does anyone actually use Xandros? Personally I'm a Debian man; can't stand all that closed source stuff and those EULAs.
29 • RE: Indian Giver (by Sergio G. on 2004-01-15 19:18:38 GMT)
I also use Debian, among others, but 'slightly modified' (Libranet)
Libranet is not free as 'free beer' but my understanding is that both their source and 'licence' are fully GPL, meaning that you can have the source (for a small fee) and can freely redistribute Libranet.
This issue has been brought up many times at the Libranet Forum and Jon and Tal, the developers, have never contradicted this point of view.
30 • But How About A Real Controversy :-) (by John Lowell on 2004-01-15 21:07:09 GMT)
Have to agree with Ladislav, if you're going to take something away and make a profit on it, remember where you came from. On the other hand if you're giving, don't kvetch about it how much it's costing you to do so; just give already.
I mean why don't we get some real controversy going here. Anyone for a Stallmann vs. Torvalds follow-up? :-)
John Lowell
31 • MadPenguin (by madhunter at 2004-01-18 06:21:06 GMT)
Happy Birthday, MadPenguin.org!
32 • Wakeup newbss.. if there is a distro that contributs allot is Xandros (by Martin heimer on 2004-03-08 20:15:30 GMT)
I was waiting a long time to see such Linux, this company makes more face to Linux than other distros, they got the idea, and take it seriously !!!
Keep up the great job, and Xandros, , , your contrib is greater than many others, and you promote Debian in a great way , I love Debian, always did, and am happy to see how far (yes FAR good) Linux has became...
Sitting at home and tweaking Linux is one thing, and is great, BUT making a distro to the Mass, is tacking things serious... Thats whats gonna run on my network (end users, people who dont care about is its microsoft or linux, they just wanna get to work)....
Number of Comments: 32
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