 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 23, 10 November 2003 |
SUSE acquired, Fedora released
What an exciting week this was! After several days of quiet speculations, SUSE LINUX A.G. was officially acquired by Novell. It is too early to say what this means for the future of the SUSE LINUX distribution, although chances are that, for the average user, not much will change. SUSE will probably continue with its twice-a-year release schedule of the Personal and Professional editions, while only the company's more lucrative enterprise editions will likely be effected by the big event last week. Those in the know seem to be of the opinion that Novell's acquisition of SUSE is a good thing for Linux, so let's just take their word for it and enjoy the publicity ride.
The excitement didn't end there as Red Hat also clamoured for attention. Firstly, the company announced that it was to discontinue its Red Hat Linux product line, only to release it a few days later under a different name - Fedora Core. Secondly, it was Red Hat's CEO Matthew Szulik, who was widely quoted as saying that: "for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line". So there you have it - right from the CEO of the most influential Linux company in the world. If you are still running Linux on your desktop computer, then hurry while stocks last and order your copy of Microsoft Windows XP Professional for only US$269.99. Not only a bargain, it is also the "right" product to have on your computer!
But seriously, what do you think of the new Fedora Core? The first reviews are positive - while Fedora Cora 1 is perhaps only an incremental update from Red Hat 9 with few notable new features, the availability of Red Hat Networks to every user without having to register every three months is certainly a pleasant aspect of the Red Hat to Fedora transformation. The new screen hiding kernel messages during boot is another noticeable change. Overall the first Fedora release seems well designed and pleasant to use, with the only main caveat being the traditional lack of functional multimedia software in the distribution.
Trouble in Redmond
No, not that part of Redmond, but rather in a small Linux company called Lycoris. Last week's stand-off between the company and its user community was a rather unpleasant event on the generally well-behaved and friendly Lycoris forums. What happened? The company released its Lycoris Desktop/LX Update 3 for free download, as promised some two months ago when the product development was completed. However, several users reported that the downloaded product was only a 45-day evaluation edition. Additionally, the company also withheld the CD containing development software and kernel sources. This caught the community by surprise because this was the first time the the company had implemented such restrictive measures. The resulting discussion was not pleasant.
It is rather obvious that Update 3 did not sell well. But blaming it on those who prefer to download the product for free without ever contributing to the development cost is short-sighted. Could it be that Lycoris Update 3 is perhaps a disappointing product? Could it be that those dozens of ignored requests to upgrade to KDE3 and to include GNOME libraries drove large parts of the community to competing products? "No, our target market doesn't need KDE3", was the often repeated line comming from Lycoris. The result? Lycoris is now in the same category as Xandros and LindowsOS, with one significant difference - Xandros and LindowsOS have become great distributions with many user-friendly enhancements, easy installation, excellent hardware auto-detection, wide range of available software and highly polished products that anybody can use and enjoy, during the time when Lycoris developers were working on, er, KDE2.
"Desktop/LX is an alternative Desktop OS, based on Linux. It's not a Linux distribution.", claimed Lycoris's President and CTO Joseph Cheek in his long, angry, and rather naive post last week. To which I would reply this: beware of anybody who maintains that a Linux-based operating system is not a Linux distribution. Statements like these are a clear sign that the company is changing - to become less open, less transparent and more profit oriented. A far cry from the ideals that Redmond Linux was known for in the very beginning of its Linux journey.
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| Released Last Week |
Knoppix 3.3-2003-11-03
A new build of Knoppix 3.3 is released. From the changelog: "V3.3-2003-11-03 (3Sat release). New background picture; the usual lot of updates; OpenOffice 1.1 (English and German); KDE 3.1.4 (partly, some packages still missing); removed compressed changelogs for space reasons; known bugs: Some ISO8859-15 fonts do not work correctly in the KDE console.".
Fedora Core 1
The Fedora Project's first official release - Fedora Core 1, code name "Yarrow", is out: "The first release of Fedora Core is now being made available. Please be patient as mirrors update over the next 48 hours or so. Everyone is encouraged to download it and participate by either submitting bugs or submitting fixes. All bugs, requests for enhancements, and fixes should be submitted via Bugzilla. Please keep up to date via the Update methods. To learn what has changed and been improved, read the Release Notes. Join the fedora-test-list mailing list or chat with other participants on IRC." More information on the Fedora Project page.
Linux From Scratch 5.0
Linux From Scratch 5.0 has been released: "The Linux From Scratch community is pleased to announce the release of LFS-5.0. This major milestone features a new method with strong emphasis on building a correct compilation environment and base libraries independent from the host system. Release 5.0 features the Linux kernel version 2.4.22, the GNU C Library (glibc) 2.3.2, the GNU Compiler Collection (gcc) 3.3.1 and a bootloader change from LILO to GRUB, amongst other package upgrades. The book's explanatory texts have also been enhanced, providing an even richer learning experience while you build your own customised, hand-crafted Linux installation. You can read the book online, or you can download the book to read locally. This marks yet another great leap for Linux From Scratch, and we hope that it will bring the benefits to more users, sysadmins, and developers than ever before." The full announcement.
Beyond Linux From Scratch 5.0
Beyond Linux From Scratch 5.0 has been released: "The Linux From Scratch community is pleased to announce the release of BLFS-5.0. This features our first concurrent release with LFS-5.0. Release 5.0 features XFree86-4.3.0.1, KDE 3.1.4, GNOME 2.2.2, Apache 2.0.47 and OpenOffice 1.1.0 plus a wide variety of current libraries and support programs. The book's layout has also been improved from the previous release. All to provide you with the best applications to install on top of your LFS 5.0 system to create customized web servers, desktops and/or multimedia workstations." The Beyond Linux From Scratch book is available for online reading or for download.
Onebase Linux 2.0
Onebase Linux 2.0 has been released: "After two months of intensive development and testing, Onebase has undergone a major change in its technology with a new OLM that now supports both source and binary packages including other features. We are happy to present this simply powerful and flexible OS today. Read the full announcement. Please buy the product to support its development. (Price has been reduced from 30$ to 20$ until Nov. 14/03). Download. Change-log. Base-packs."
Gibraltar Firewall 1.0
The Debian-based Gibraltar Firewall project has released its first stable version, 1.0: "After several months of intensive development we are very proud to announce release 1.0 of Gibraltar Firewall. The commercial version of Gibraltar now comes with a user-friendly and comfortable web based configuration tool called GibADMIN. GibADMIN supports many features of the free version of Gibraltar and makes administration a piece of cake. See a detailed feature list here." Read the rest of the announcement. A commercial of Gibraltar Firewall edition costs €990, but a GPL edition with disabled GibADMIN can be downloaded freely from one of the mirror sites.
Development Releases
Unannounced Releases
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
Yellow Dog Linux for G5
As announced on the Yellow Dog Linux website, an experimental release of Yellow Dog Linux for G5 will soon be available: "Terra Soft has shipped a beta (experimental) version of Yellow Dog Linux pre-installed on G5s since September, and will soon release public ISOs with improved 32-bit beta support for these incredible computers. Subscribe to the Announce List in order to be informed of this release."
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| Web Site News |
Site translations
Many thanks to VahapDEMiR from Çukurova University in Turkey to translate parts of the site into Turkish. If you are interested in translating the site's introduction and navigation menus into your language, please see this page for details.
DistroWatch.com mail server listed on spamhaus.org
The distrowatch.com mail server has been listed on spamhaus.org. This means that all mail servers configured to use sbl.spamhaus.org to control spam will reject all mail sent from distrowatch.com.
If you administer a mail server, please think twice before configuring your mail server to use an RBL spam blocking service, such as spamhaus.org. Despite their good intention, the spamhaus.org's implementation of blocking spam is flawed - they don't just block the IP address known to have been used to send spam, they also block all neighbouring IP addresses on the network. It is unfortunate that the distrowatch.com server is sitting next to a server hosting a Russian porn site, which is known to send out spam. As such, please be warned that you might be blocking legitimate mail if you use spamhaus.org or other similar organisations to control spam. Any mail server blocking legitimate email is misconfigured.
This will also answer the often repeated questions about a DistroWatch email newsletter: there is no chance of that ever happening, so stop asking. I have lost my confidence in email as a reliable form of communication some time ago and things have only been getting worse since then. No, spam is not the problem. Those who are trying to control the spam are a far bigger problem.
New additions
- RUNT. RUNT (ResNet USB Network Tester) is Slackware Linux designed to run off of a 128 MB USB pen drive. It consists of a boot floppy image and a zip file, similar to zipslack. It is intended to be a fairly complete Linux installation for use as a testing tool capable of booting on any x86 computer with a USB port and a bootable floppy drive. The boot floppy is based off of Slackware's bare kernel. It contains an initial ramdisk to load USB-storage related modules and it pauses for 5 seconds to allow the drive to initialise. The bootdisk also contains Memtest86, a very useful RAM testing tool, which can be started by typing memtest at the boot prompt.
- ClusterKnoppix. ClusterKnoppix is a modified Knoppix distribution using the OpenMosix kernel.
- Hakin9 Live. Hakin9 is a magazine about security. It is read by people responsible for computer systems security, programmers, security specialists, professional administrators, as well as people taking up security issues in their free time. Hakin9 Live is bootable distribution, based on Aurox Live, containing all the tools and material needed to practice methods and techniques described in articles.
New on the waiting list
- PLD Live CD. "PLD Live CD is a bootable disk that contains a live Linux distribution based on PLD Linux Distribution. It uses transparent compression (squashfs) to fit huge amount of packages on a single CD, including OpenOffice, KDE, GNOME, WindowMaker, XFCE, and many, many more. PLD Live CD also includes a set of scripts autodetecting hardware (like SCSI/ISA devices, monitors, sound or graphics cards). It has support for 'profiles' where you can store your settings, so that they can be load on system bootup from a floppy."
- Aleader. "The Aleader software combines a video player, affective indexing, and psychometric tools into an easy to use GUI. Aleader can already test how consistantly you can witness what is going on in a film. However, empirical verification of our methods is still in the early stages."
- KnopMyth. "KnoppMyth is my attempt at making the Linux and MythTV installation as trivial as possible."
- BLAG Linux. "BLAG is an operating system. BLAG has a suite of graphics, Internet, audio, video, office, and peer to peer file sharing applications."
Removed from the waiting list
- Lamdaux due to unavailability of product information.
DistroWatch database summary
- Number of distributions in the database: 193
- Number of discontinued distributions: 24
- Number of distributions on the waiting list: 65
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| Reader Feedback |
On categorising distributions
- "Perhaps it would be worthwhile to put distributions into searchable categories (for timesaver members). Each distribution could have multiple searchable categories and a description of what makes it different/better than other distros. For example, Knoppix would have categories such as 'Live CD' and 'Easy-to-use.' Fedora would be listed as 'general purpose', kinda like a swiss-army knife of linux. Other categories would include 'small size, router, security-focused, floppy-based, source-based, server-focused, desktop focused, ...' etc. Of course, this would take an awful lot of work..."
The number of similar suggestions is very much on the rise, which is perhaps a good indication that with the rapidly increasing number of new distributions the site is becoming difficult to navigate. In short, we need to categorise distributions. We have a few categories - major, CD-based, source-based, firewall, discontinued, and we also used to have a PPC category, but it disappeared during an earlier reorganisation. I think we need to create more categories. Some suggestions have already been put forward and we are going to create new categories based on package management, architecture support, language support, purpose, etc. Categories can be overlapping. If you have any more ideas how best to categorise the distributions, please discuss them below. The idea is to create a page where you can select from a list of categories and get a list of distributions and their descriptions.
A search engine is also in the works, but as promised, it will only be available to those who join Timesavers.
On Red Hat/Fedora split
- "I think there should be a separate page for Fedora since it's a completely different distribution from Red Hat."
I've been thinking about this too. I don't really agree that Fedora is _completely_ different from Red Hat, not this early since the split, but I can see Red Hat making an effort to distance themselves from Fedora (or at least make it less obvious that Fedora is the continuation of the free Red Hat Linux) in the future. What do other think? Should we create a separate page for Fedora or continue listing it under the Red Hat page?
That's all for now, keep well and see you next Monday :-)
Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • RE: Categories and RedHat/Fedora Split (by Honaby at 2003-11-10 15:02:49 GMT)
May I suggest that the categories includes the focus on the features of the distributions like Multimedia support, Hardware support, Desktop focus, etc. Aside from the usual CD/LIVE based, source-based, firewall, etc.
The categories can also include Graphical Boot screen, Graphical Install, Etc... this way, new users can easily choose between distributions that they need.
About the Fedora/RedHat split, I second the motion! RedHat clearly states that they do not support the Fedora Project.
Fedora is a trademark of Red Hat, Inc.
The Fedora Project is not a supported product of Red Hat, Inc.
Red Hat, Inc. is not responsible for the content of other sites.
The split is definitely a must!!! The problem is how do you split the page hit ranking for RedHat and Fedora?
2 • fedora/redhat split (by dennis flener at 2003-11-10 15:13:34 GMT)
I definately agree on a seperate listing for fedora. even though it has contributions from the redhat developers, it also has support from non-redhat contributors. redhat and fedora are as seperate as say, knoppix and gnoppix. I would even rather have fedora listed instead of redhat if that were the choice.
3 • fedora vs. redhat (by Hell Fire at 2003-11-10 16:06:45 GMT)
I also agree that Fedora should have its own listing... it's kinda confusing to have Fedora and RHL listed together.
- Hell Fire
4 • RedHat/Fedora Split (by sclebo05 at 2003-11-10 16:07:32 GMT)
if RedHat and Fedora are supposed to be separate entities, perhaps the best way to go is to split them. From what I understand the RedHat product is going to be a more secure and controlled product, and the Fedora a more bleeding edge collection of software. This could possibly make listing the packages for one incorrect for the other.
5 • Red Hat/Fedora split (by Elijah Newren at 2003-11-10 16:18:01 GMT)
I'll have to voice my opinion against splitting Fedora & Red Hat pages and tracking them separately. I don't see the need. Although they are vocally separating themselves and reminding people of the fact they they won't provide a business-type support (i.e. staffing a call support center), they really are running the Fedora show. Sure, more people in the community are becoming involved (I started helping some once it became a community project), it'll be some time before the outside community matches the amount of work that Red Hat is putting into the distro (if that ever happens). So, in some ways, it seems sort of like Mozilla with the Netscape engineers doing a lot of the heavy lifting with the community growing over time.
However, I do suggest a change. Instead of using "Red Hat" as the text for the link, use "Red Hat/Fedora".
Anyway, that's my $.02.
6 • Categories (by DaveW on 2003-11-10 16:33:53 GMT)
The categories that matter to me are not-rpm, live CD, and special-purpose (like DyneBolic). Not-RPM is for folks like me who are interested in any distro that offers an alternative to rpm package management. There are quite a few alternatives these days, so categorizing each type of package management could get cumbersome to the point of being uninformative.
7 • OneBase Review? (by DaveW on 2003-11-10 16:35:44 GMT)
The new OneBase sounds interesting, but solid info is hard to come by. No reviews are listed. Any chance of a review any time soon?
8 • categorising (by Erik on 2003-11-10 17:55:33 GMT)
I think it would be a good idea to split Red Hat and Fedora, since their development follow different tracks, release cycles, and Red Hat distancing themselves from Fedora.
Maybe it would be possible to categorise the distributions on different items in a database, such as:
- Type: installation / live
- Package management: rpm, apt, ...
- Freely downloadable: yes / no
-
This way people can easily search on a number of criterea, ex. I am looking for a Live CD distribution, that is freely downloadable, with apt package management.
Great site ! Good to see it evolves !!
9 • RedHat Split (by None at 2003-11-10 18:06:52 GMT)
I believe that Red Hat and Fedora should have 2 seperate listings. Fedora is supporting different packages (and versions) like xmms. Also there are different release dates between products.
To sum it up; diffent packages also different versions in addition to a different release schedual might qualify for 2 listings.
PS. Fedora is looking at the 2.6 kernel in its next relase (within 6 months), however the commercial version is looking at approx. 1 year time frame.
10 • Arch review? (by Luk van den Borne at 2003-11-10 18:10:43 GMT)
In one of the previous Distrowatch Weekly, you said you were interested in reviewing Arch Linux. Have you dropped this plan or is it still on the waiting list? I'm eager to hear what you think of Arch Linux.
Regarding the RH/Fedora split, I think Fedora should get a seperate page. There are not many differences with RH yet, but sooner or later the difference will be unacceptably large. Too large to be listed on one page.
11 • RedHat-Fedora split (by BC at 2003-11-10 19:47:45 GMT)
I can see both sides of the argument, and I think the
reasonable compromise is to delay the split until the
second release of Fedora when (presumably) there
will be a more pronounced difference between the two
in kernel/package release levels.
12 • RedHat-Fedora split (by Offer Kaye at 2003-11-10 20:27:05 GMT)
I think the decision should be consistent with current Distrowatch practices, i.e. should follow precedence. Suse Linux is a company similiar to Red Hat, and like them the have both enterprise and personal editions of their linux products.
Distowatch only covers the Suse Linux personal edition. Therefore, to remain consistent, Distrowatch should replace "redhat" with "fedora", in keeping with Red-Hat's official stance that fedora is now a seperate project. If the enterprise edition "RedHat Linux" is also covered by Distrowatch is, of course, up to Distrowatch. But I think for the personal edition the name Fedora should be adopted.
I do however agree with the last poster (BC) in that it might be a good idea to delay the name switch untill the next Fedora release- this is also in keeping with Distrowatch's policy of waiting awhile before accepting a new distribution, which if you think about it Fedora is.
13 • RedHat-Fedora split (by Julian Bane at 2003-11-10 20:49:46 GMT)
I would like to endorsethe comments of "BC" and "Offer Kaye". Having said that I think that the "Red Hat" branding has been a very positive thing for the Linux comunity, its where I started and I would hate to see it fade into obscurity on this site.
On the subject of databases I would love to be able to query this one. e.g. List distros with DEB package management, Gnome, DHCP3, Samba3. But then it is easy to wish when you don't have to implement.
14 • Red Hat Linux is discontinued (by Kent Pirkle at 2003-11-10 22:39:59 GMT)
I think the Red Hat page should be retired as an active page and kept as a historical reference. The product known as "Red Hat Linux" is gone after 9 is EOLed. There should instead be two distributions listed: Red Hat Enterprise Linux, with the different package listings for the WS and ES/AS broken out, and a Fedora Core listing for the Fedora Project. Keeping the Red Hat page for RHEL doesn't make since, you can't upgrade a RHL system to RHEL. But, you can upgrade a RHL system to Fedora Core, but Fedora Core is not Red Hat Linux.
Also, I think SUSE should have a page for their Enterprise offerings as well to be able to compare packages etc. against Red Hat.
15 • Categories (by PastorEd at 2003-11-10 23:02:21 GMT)
Hello, Distrowatch!
I just wanted to give my thoughts on the categorization process.
Linux is a VERY configurable OS. Almost to the point of overkill. I would suggest, to account for the variable nature of Linux distros, a MATRIX of distros based on any number of different attributes. Make the matrix searchable, and people can access the information they're interested in.
Possible groupings for this chart:
- package management;
- parent distro (Morphix is based on Knoppix, which is pased on Debian, so Debian is "parent" distro to both Knoppix and Morphix);
- targeted hardware (Peanut works well on older machines, Mandrake AMD64 won't work on your old i386)
- targeted audience (someone who wants an ultra-secure mail server isn't going to be too interested in eMovix)
- and don't forget all the major divisions you've already got: source, CD-based, etc.
Could this be done with drop down buttons, like the distro selection button on the home page?
Major Source CD-based Package Audience Parent
Distro Based (live CD) mngmnt. intended origin
Just some thoughts.
GBYLBT, PastorEd
16 • Fedora/Red Hat issue (by Elijah Newren at 2003-11-11 00:19:14 GMT)
According to http://fedora.redhat.com/about/objectives.html, Red Hat Enterprise Linux will be based on Fedora (see objective #13). So, I'd like to ask this question to those that propose Fedora & Red Hat be split into separate web pages: How do you justify keeping Debian unstable, testing, and stable under a single web page? (Remember: Although Debian unstable becomes testing and testing becomes stable, that's not really all that different from Fedora becoming RHEL). How do you justify keeping SuSE to a single page, in light of Offer Kaye's comments that SuSE has multiple offerings as well?
There may be good answers to the above questions that others can think of for this, but the only one I see is that Red Hat is trying to keep the names for their offerings more distinct than other Linux distributors.
17 • Arch review? (by ladislav at 2003-11-11 02:36:28 GMT)
I wrote a brief overview of Arch Linux for LWN:
http://lwn.net/Articles/40952/
Also, one of the readers is currently working on a review of Arch Linux, which will be published here once finished.
Reviews are hard to write. You really need to spend at least a week in the reviewed product before you can write a decent review. Unfortunately, I don't have the time - DistroWatch is a big site to run and getting bigger and more popular every day.
18 • RE: SUSE Enterprise listing (by ladislav at 2003-11-11 02:43:45 GMT)
Also, I think SUSE should have a page for their Enterprise offerings as well to be able to compare packages etc. against Red Hat.
This is easier said than done. Unlike Red Hat, SUSE does not provide the package list of their enterprise releases - unless I missed it, in which case I'd appreciate the link.
19 • what happened to the BSD's (by David Trimmer at 2003-11-11 03:14:26 GMT)
I know you focus exclusively on Linux distributions. However, I feel that as a majority of your readership are probably of the hobbyist/enthusiest crowd, I feel that the BSD's should be included. The licensing is different but FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD are probably more stable and secure than any of the Linux's. As both BSD and Linux evolved from Unix System V, I feel they should be included on your excellent site.
20 • RE: what happened to the BSD's (by ladislav at 2003-11-11 03:58:18 GMT)
This was covered before and rejected. You are wasting your time bringing up this subject again.
21 • No subject (by John Lowell on 2003-11-11 04:49:51 GMT)
Anyone familiar with the coercive updating practices instituted by Red Hat about a year ago will hardly be surprised to learn that Matthew Szulik, Red Hat's CEO, has written off Linux as a credible alternative to Windows on the desktop. What better way to focus attention on the imagined significance of one's own projects than to belittle the selection of an alternative. Gaining a meaningful impression of the character of a person or of an organizaton ordinarily would require a certain minimum of exposure up close. In the case of Szulik and Red Hat, however, one can detect the odour at a distance of parsecs.
If it weren't for the fact that it will have a continued existence as a server distro, albeit a short one one hopes, I would vote to strike Red Hat from DistroWatch's lists altogether. Given the circumstances, I vote for the two entry scheme.
John Lowell
22 • onebase 2.0 (by jxn on 2003-11-11 06:50:50 GMT)
it's nice to see onebase isn't dead in the water. perhaps I'm just an impatient fool, but I was close to giving up on it after such an expanse of time betwixt the announced and actual release dates. I'm all for taking one's time (heck, I'm a debian woody user :) ), but I wasn't seeing any updates or signs of life. Looks to be a good distro, though...worthy of an install attempt on my new laptop, methinks.
23 • Re: Fedora/Red Hat issue (by fdavid on 2003-11-11 08:56:48 GMT)
I second Elijah Newren's opinion. Just like Debian stable/unstable/testing, Gentoo stable/unstable, Mandrake releases/cooker, and so on could fit Read Hat and Fedora on the same page. This seems to me more logical. I don't find a time delay appropriate in this case, because Fedora is rather a new name than a brand new distro.
24 • RTFA -- Red Hat: Stick with Windows at home (by Eavy at 2003-11-11 09:15:31 GMT)
"I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line," [Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat,] said. "I would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more." -- http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5101690.html
Unfortunately this very informed quote has been turned around and taken out of context by a whole lot of people. Red Hat's CEO never claimed Linux couldn't be used as a desktop OS. Fedora Core 1 is a great desktop OS. But he's honest enough to admit that home users shouldn't expect it, or any other version of Linux, to fully support the latest consumer devices (which - still - generally come with Windows drivers only). This will change, soon, but right now it would be misleading to recommend Linux as the main desktop OS to an ordinary home user (think "mom and dad"). The next step is to take over the corporate desktop, which won't require all the latest gadgets, then use that momentum to advance into the remaining consumer area.
So please read the original statement and stop spreading the misquoted FUD. (This reminds me of the spilled-coffee-lawsuit, often credited as proof how fucked-up the US justice system has become, neglecting that it actually had a lot of merit - just google for more information.)
PS: For what it's worth, I'd keep Red Hat and Fedora on the same page, at least for now. It basically is Red Hat 10 with a new name and development model. Let's hope it comes closer to Debian, my other favorite distro, this way.
25 • Separate RHEL/Fedora (by Dave on 2003-11-11 13:37:24 GMT)
IMHO, RHEL & Fedora should be separated. RHEL has a completely different objective and target audience than Fedora Core. Most users would not be willing to pay the pricey sum for RHEL. On that same note, enterprise level businesses would not be willing to consider using Fedora Core without the support of the company behind it. Therefore, they are separate distros and belong on separate pages.
Including them together would be like putting Mandrake on the same page as RH, since Mandrake was based off of RH orginally. Just because it started from RH originally does not mean it belongs on the same page. It is now a completely different distro.
David Mastny
26 • RE: Separate RHEL/Fedora (by ladislav at 2003-11-11 15:23:07 GMT)
Just because it started from RH originally does not mean it belongs on the same page. It is now a completely different distro.
Have you actually installed Fedora Core 1? I have serious doubts, otherwise you would not claim that Fedora is a completely different distro.
In fact, Fedora is nothing but a re-branded Red Hat Linux, made by the same developers as Red Hat Linux, using the same Red Hat configuration tools, the same Red Hat Networks infrastructure, the same Red Hat kernel patches... I honestly don't see how you can claim that Fedora is completly different. It is not. Install it and see for yourself.
27 • No subject (by John Lowell on 2003-11-11 17:34:18 GMT)
Facinating that Eavy would think that it's the world's responsibility to interpret Matthew Szulik properly and not Szulik's to make himself clear. I think he made himself entirely clear, Eavy:
"I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line," [Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat,] said. "I would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more."
If they are meant, where are the distinctions in that statement? Given the centerpiece of Red Hat's business plan - in corporatese "the enterprise" mentioned so frequently by this clown - why would anyone assume that he had any distinctions in mind at all? I don't think he had any hairs to split here, Eavy, and neither do lots of others, so spare those of us that can read the assertions of misrepresenting him, will you. I mean what part of "the right product line" don't you understand?
John Lowell
28 • Categories (by PastorEd at 2003-11-11 20:39:32 GMT)
Hello, Distrowatch!
I just wanted to give my thoughts on the categorization process.
Linux is a VERY configurable OS. Almost to the point of overkill. I would suggest, to account for the variable nature of Linux distros, a MATRIX of distros based on any number of different attributes. Make the matrix searchable, and people can access the information they're interested in.
Possible groupings for this chart:
- package management;
- parent distro (Morphix is based on Knoppix, which is pased on Debian, so Debian is "parent" distro to both Knoppix and Morphix);
- targeted hardware (Peanut works well on older machines, Mandrake AMD64 won't work on your old i386)
- targeted audience (someone who wants an ultra-secure mail server isn't going to be too interested in eMovix)
- and don't forget all the major divisions you've already got: source, CD-based, etc.
Could this be done with drop down buttons, like the distro selection button on the home page?
Major Source CD-based Package Audience Parent
Distro Based (live CD) mngmnt. intended origin
Just some thoughts.
GBYLBT, PastorEd
29 • RHL/Fedor (by Gary on 2003-11-12 00:53:51 GMT)
I think they should be split but I'm not sure as to when or possibly to what extent. Right now they are one in the same as ladislav noted above. I upgraded RH9 to FC1. The only difference being some Fedora splash screens etc. All of Red Hats tools are still in this release (redhat-config-network, redhat-config-mouse, etc.). I guess one has to think about exactly what makes a distribution a distribution. I think that only time will tell; when we see how far Redhat will distance themselves from Fedora. But like noted above, it's really no different than any other distro 'fork' or 'spin-off' if you will. Right now it seems like they are the same (other then some Fedora stuff I guess they are) but they are indeed separate which will become more evident in the future (or not). Fedora's name, Fedora's work, Fedora's distro. People will continue to contribute including RH engineers and programmers. But how long will RH continue and how much? It's really the community that does all the hard work. Let's not forget that there are other distros based on RedHat. Perhaps I just don't understand what makes Fedora any more special than the others...
I also wonder if the tools mentioned above will change names i.e. redhat-config-network -> fedora-config-network. It really doesn't matter... they contribute too and are entitled to use their RedHat name. IMO if all, or the majority of all the work, is done outside of RedHat then it should be considered a separate distribution regardless of Redhat's contributions. I think the twist here is that, in the future, instead of Fedora being based on RedHat, Redhat will be based on Fedora...
Just my opinion.
30 • Fedora (by David Mastny on 2003-11-13 13:44:59 GMT)
Ladislav,
You do bring up a good point. Admittedly, I have not yet had the pleasure of installing FC1. Perhaps it is not very different yet, but I was assuming that at some point it may be quite different.
Perhaps at this point in the game, we could ride both sides of the fence. In other words, we could keep FC1 listed in *both* the RH section as well as creating a separate page for Fedora. That way, those who didn't know better and were searching for fedora would be able to find it on its own page, while those upgrading from RH would still see FC1 as the next "upgrade."
David Mastny
31 • Split (by Leo on 2003-11-13 15:18:32 GMT)
How about waiting a little and see ? I would split them the moment they start diverging in reality (i.e. using different packages, etc.). If the package list can be maintained consistently for RedHat/Fedora as a whole, then why not keep them as an entity ?
If no important branching occurs, Fedora will end up being for RedHat what cooker is for Mandrake, and cooker is nicely listed within the Mandrake entry ...
32 • RedHat (Szulik) pissing itself (by Leo on 2003-11-13 15:28:39 GMT)
I find Szulik's comments obnoxious. And it is not the first time we hear people from RedHat saying something along these lines. And that was a big factor for me to switch to Mandrake at the time. Look, it is ok if RedHat concludes that home consumer market is not profitable for them and they exit retail market. But this does not imply that Linux is not ready for the Desktop. It is quite ready. RedHat Linux is not ready perhaps, I found my Mandrake desktop much more user friendly, polished, and working out of the box.
What he doesn't realize, is that this irresponsible advertising from a Linux visible head to TheMonopoly is just going in the wrong direction: more power to the monopoly. The only aspect where Linux lags is driver/third party software support. And this is because of the huge dominance of the Monopoly on the consumer market. The same market Szulik is giving up. What a load of crap !
33 • Linux on the Destop (by JeffreyB on 2003-11-13 19:52:06 GMT)
As much as I hate to admit it... IMHO- Linux is NOT ready for primetime use in most new desktop user home settings - unless the home user only wants to surf the net, get email, and do the typical "office" stuff with OpenOffice. I believe that if Linux is introduced to "Joe" home user too soon and he has a bad experience, then he will tell his friends that Linix is a piece of #$%@... The word will spread and thats what M$ would like to see happen. Better to wait until the drivers and applications get more mature and for a user support base get in place.
34 • No subject (by John Lowell on 2003-11-13 20:52:30 GMT)
Hi JeffreyB,
Do work for Red Hat by any chance? :-)
John Lowell
35 • Comments (by Michelle at 2004-06-27 14:03:31 GMT)
It stunk!!! So BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Number of Comments: 35
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