 DistroWatch Weekly |
| DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 15, 15 September 2003 |
Mandrake Linux 9.2, an "adware" release
If you've ever had doubts about the real popularity and usage of Mandrake Linux, then last week's controversy over MandrakeSoft's announcement to place advertisements into the next Mandrake release should have cleared them convincingly. The story, first reported by PCLinuxOnline, where it generated over 12,000 page views and nearly 200 comments, and later picked up by all major Linux news sites, was taken from Mandrake's advertising page. The page has since undergone substantial modifications and Mandrake has also released further clarifications about the issue.
For those who missed the story, here is the recap. According to the original announcement, the upcoming Mandrake Linux 9.2, due for release later this month, will feature sponsored content on its installation screens, it will have sponsored bookmarks in all web browsers, which will also come with pre-set home pages leading to the advertisers' web sites. Additionally, the freely downloadable edition was to have screensaver advertising, but this plan has since been scrapped. Interested parties could sign up for these sponsorship deals for a fee of US$7,000 and up, although the pricing structure is now also gone from the web page carrying the announcement.
This story has caused a massive outcry even among the most devote Mandrake users and supporters. This is a Microsoft-like idea, they claimed, going against the spirit of open source software and fearing that other similar and more intrusive measures will follow. Many users expressed strong interests in exploring other Linux distributions if Mandrake goes ahead with their advertising plans. No wonder that Mandrake's founder Gaël Duval was quick to issue further clarifications, trying to calm down the community with statements claiming that "the ads will be non-intrusive" and "users will be able to remove them easily".
Is there anything wrong with Mandrake Linux 9.2 turning into an "adware"? No, there isn't. Is there anything wrong with Mandrake's implementation of the "adware" concept? Yes, there is.
The adware concept is nothing new, even in the Linux world. Take the Opera web browser as an example; the advertisements present in the freely downloadable edition of Opera can be turned off by buying a license and registering the software. This is in essence how all adware works. However, according to MandrakeSoft's announcement, the planned advertisements will be present in all Mandrake editions - the freely downloadable one, as well as the commercial boxed products. There has been no word about offering an ad-free edition of Mandrake Linux to the US$60-per-annum Mandrake Club members who are effectively the company's main lifeline. No wonder sparks were flying as soon as the news got out!
MandrakeSoft's decision makers have to tread very carefully here. On one hand, they cannot afford to alienate their loyal users and club members by introducing obtrusive advertising. On the other, they cannot make it too easy to turn the advertising off - that's if they are serious about attracting sponsors. But there should definitely be no advertising in Mandrake's PowerPack and ProSuite editions, while the Mandrake Club members should also get access to an ad-free edition of Mandrake Linux. As for those who download it for free without ever contributing to the development of the product, they will have few valid reasons to complain about sponsored installation screens or a handful of commercial browser bookmarks.
Of course, one of the most wonderful aspects of Mandrake Linux is that the company, unlike many others in the Linux world, does listen to the community and maintains a constructive dialogue with their users and fans. As such, it is more than likely than MandrakeSoft will diffuse the current advertising controversy and come up with a more reasonable solution to everybody's satisfaction. But if not, and if you absolutely refuse to accept any compromise over this issue, then you are on the right web site to explore any potential replacements for Mandrake Linux :-)
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| Released Last Week |
SoL 17.00
Server Optimized Linux (SoL) 17.00 has been released: "antitachyon - Manalo & Willner OEG proudly announces the fourth stable release of SoL - Server optimized Linux 17.00. SoL 17.00 is a milestone in the SoL - series. The ideas and concepts of SoL were consequently enhanced and the requests of the SoL - community all over the whole world were considered in this release. SoL 17.00 is the first of the SoL - releases to be installed with the new installation system SoLIv2, which includes many features such as Software-RAID creation, a quick-install mode for automatic mass-installations and a clear step-by-step installation menu. As usual, with SoL 17.00 a complete and ready-to-use server can be installed within 30 minutes." See the rest of the press release.
Damn Small Linux 0.4.7
A new Damn Small release is out. Changes in version 0.4.7: "New apps and features: parted (partition tool), rdesktop (RDP client for Windows NT/2000 Terminal Server), Xpacman (fun and tiny Pacman game), updated the Firebird script to 0.6.1, update lilo, added an option to set frequency for the Xvesa server. Bugs and Cleanups: fixed some post-install bugs (sudo, swap), did a little post install script cleaning, fixed irc bug, fixed screensaver bug. There have been a lot of requests for rdesktop and GNU/parted. On the entertainment side, Xpacman couldn't be passed up with a binary of just 22k. I've been working on smoothing DSL out, so some time was put into fixing bugs and getting DSL install on the hard drive will less knocks." The full changelog and package list.
Development Releases
- Mandrake 9.2rc2, the beta information page.
- Slackware Linux 9.1 beta-1, an unexpected announcement given that version 9.0 was released in March this year and that Slackware had seemingly settled into a one-release-per-year routine in recent years. The busy changelog has all the details.
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| Upcoming Releases and Announcements |
Red Hat Linux
Expect a major announcement from Red Hat later today - that's if their promise to provide new information about the Red Hat Linux Project on or before 15 September holds true. But it should, according to Mike Harris and this message on the Red Hat beta mailing list: "You will be given further information about the project on September 15th, as the website rhl.redhat.com states. To stay updated on all information, you can visit that website. Chances are if [information] isn't on the website, then it isn't public or is not decided upon yet."
Voodoo Linux 3.0
The mysteriously low-profile Voodoo Linux has announced a new upcoming beta release, Voodoo Linux 2.3 rc 3.0: "We are in the process of releasing the new beta of Voodoo Linux (2.3) and the new signup form will be made available here soon. If you have a spare system and the time to fully test the release feel free to sign up. Your feedback will be most crucial as this will be a major release for Voodoo Linux 3.0." Sign up for the Voodoo Linux announcements if you'd like to take part in the beta testing process. Voodoo Linux is now a Debian-based distribution, although all their previous releases used to be based on Red Hat Linux.
Linux From Scratch 5.0
The Linux From Scratch project has published an updated roadmap of the upcoming Linux From Scratch 5.0: "Release LFS-5.0-RC1 Monday, Sep 15th and spend that entire week testing the book. If major issues have come up, release LFS-5.0-RC2 on Monday, Sep 22nd and spend that week testing as well. If no major issues came up, instead of releasing LFS-5.0-RC2 on the 22nd, we can release LFS-5.0 itself."
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| Web Site News |
New additions
- CDlinux. CDlinux is a CD based mini Linux distribution, which runs from a CD-ROM. It aims to be an administration/rescue tool for East Asian (CJK) users. CDlinux is also highly user configurable, and supports a wide range of hardware (PCMCIA, SCSI, USB, etc). At present time, only simplified Chinese is fully supported.
- Sentry Firewall CD. The Sentry Firewall CD-ROM is designed to be an easy to manage and configure CD-ROM based Linux operating system suitable for use in a firewall, IDS (Intrusion Detection System) or server environment. The system is designed to be immediately configurable for a variety of different operating environments via a configuration file located on a floppy disk, a local hard drive, and/or a network via HTTP(S), FTP, SFTP, or SCP. Currently, the system is based on a Slackware 9.0 installation. Various other packages and utilities have also been added to increase this system's functionality.
New on the waiting list
- Arrabix is a Knoppix-based live CD with support for Arabic.
- PXES Linux thin client is a micro Linux distribution allowing you to build thin clients or diskless workstations.
- evelyn is a linux distribution based on Mandrake; it's main purpose is to be kept secure and small, while providing basic functionality the system administrators might need.
DistroWatch database summary
- Number of distributions in the database: 172
- Number of discontinued distributions: 24
- Number of distributions on the waiting list: 64
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| Reader Feedback |
Several readers have mentioned the release of Linare Desktop, a new commercial Linux distribution by Linare Corporation. As much as we would love to give you more detailed information about the product, we have to concede defeat here. The distribution's web site has very little useful information about the product (not counting the four screenshots of the KDE desktop) and all our email requests for further details or a review copy of Linare Desktop have met with a resolute silence. The product retails for just under US$20 and is apparently available for purchase. If anybody has some more information about Linare Desktop, we'd love hear from you!
- On Linux distributions for old hardware
Here is something for those of you with interest in distributions with old hardware, as submitted by one of the readers: "Just wanna let you that there is something, that can be viewed as Linux Distro, although it's only called a Desktop Environment: The Turbo Desktop Environement (TDE), a Linux distro based on Debian and KDE1 (initially, now also KDE3 or XFCE4) which is targeted on not so new computers (say from Pentium 1 on, in comparison to DeLi Linux, which is targeted for i386s and later architectures)."
- On rethinking the distribution model
"My compliments - you wrote a good, thought provoking essay on changes in the whole notion of the old distribution model. That model was born way back when CDs were new and bandwidth was 14.4 kbps. Nowadays, CDs are old, DVDs are middle aged, DVD burners are new, and broadband internet access is becoming mainstream. So yes, changing technology will bring about changes in distribution models.
Interestingly, as you point out, Mandrake was the first to get a clue and make the change. They distribute mostly over the internet, and collect payments from club members. (By the way, for the first time ever, I have been using Mandrake 9.1 daily for months as a primary desktop. Mandrake finally made the grade - 9.1 is quite stable and trouble free, and fairly user friendly - good job by the folks at Mandrake.) I guess when your corporate back is up against the wall, you tend to pull your head out of your ass and deal with reality a bit quicker. Given that notion, Red Hat is to be commended for some forward thinking, and one wonders about SuSE.
Debian has straddled both worlds. They have always made their distro available for download over the internet, and it is also readily available at low cost from CD resellers for those with limited bandwidth. Debian does it all yet again.
However, I sense a problem with distributing Linux distros exclusively over the net, and not as a physical, boxed product. What about hard copy documentation? Sure, sure, the hardcore Linux geeks either don't need hardcopy docs or can get whatever docs they want online when they try out a new distro. But what about all those Windows users who want to switch? They desperately need quality, hardcopy documentation.
Right now, Mandrake, Red Hat, and SuSE all offer hard copy documentation with their boxed versions. Red Hat offers all of its documentation available for purchase separately, as well as for free download in .pdf form too. But if Linux distros abandon the boxed distribution model, will they get lazy in time and also abandon hardcopy documentation? What happens then when the Windows users want or need to switch over and need some good documentation?
Professionally produced quality software should always be well documented, preferably with hard copy documentation made available. Red Hat seems to understand this quite well. The lack of such is one of the flaws of Debian. Will Mandrake and SuSE remain clueful?
Luke Seubert"
That's all for this week, keep well and see you next Monday :-)
Ladislav Bodnar
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| Reader Comments • Jump to last comment |
1 • Mandrake's ads (by Benjamin Vander Jagt at 2003-09-15 13:40:16 GMT)
I guess there's nothing to worry about except Mandrake possibly looking stupid and alienating some sponsors. If they insert ads that the customers actually like, and if the sponsors aren't swept under the rug, that's no problem.
If they upset any customers with it being too intrusive or even the slightest bit annoying, we'll see a clone Linux like, say, Mandrunk or Mandark.
I remember reading that Microsoft bought Red Hat. A friend of mine (who is not much of a Linux fan) said, "Haha, there goes Linux's stability! No more free operating system." I coolly responded, "Red Hat Linux is GPL. There's no way that they can take back the freedom of the operating system. The most that Microsoft could do from that is make Red Hat crappy to try to ruin Linux's reputation."
Don't believe me? Do a Google search, "Microsoft Acquires Red Hat"
(It's a hoax page. A very good one.)
And I sure am curious about Voodoo Linux! They make a pretty heavy claim about being able to run Windows applications seamlessly without using Wine. I'm not sure if they still make that claim, but it would be interesting to see how this new version works.
Anyone have any idea why the release of Gnome 2.4 made precisely no news anywhere? I'm getting ready to build it myself (by hand, since Garnome! never works.)
2 • Good commentary on Mandrake's Ads Fiasco (by Leo on 2003-09-15 14:46:56 GMT)
I think you couldn't put this in a simpler, clearer way:
* KEEP the distro ADS FREE for PAYING CUSTOMERS,
* Put ADS for FREE-RIDERS
This is it, that would keep paying customers happy, would make free-riders consider to start buying, and it would keep advertisers happy too. How many of their millions of users buy the distro anyways ?
But as you point out, it is not clear that this is what they'll do. And this is a shame. Their clarification was not really helpful.
Now, as for the community response. They have to make a living for God's sake. Let them grow. This is a GREAT way (if they do it right).
3 • I don't see the problem about what Mandrake wants (by Paul at 2003-09-15 16:43:03 GMT)
If anyone has installed one of the more recent Redhat editions, then they have seen advertising in the installer. It is simple, clear, and actually pretty. Having little pieces of IBM would be fine there. Redhat is already glorifying their own accomplishments, so why not have some Oracle plugs. It benefits me whether or not it is a paid version, because now more money goes to redhat.
Now for the slippery slope argument. Yeah, ads could get intrusive, but having them in the installer isn't. You could argue principle, but mozilla defaults to mozilla, yet Redhat's pre-installed mozilla defaults to redhat. Most distros already have links to sites pertaining to the company, although in a "support" form.
This idea is fine as long as it isn't abused.
4 • ads in Mandrake 9.2 (by Luk van den Borne at 2003-09-15 17:32:24 GMT)
What's the big deal about those ads? You'll only see them once. Bookmarks can be deleted easily, as well as the home page. Installing is also a one-time event. Those actions do not make a stand against the time Mandrake will save you by automatically detecting every bit of hardware in your pc and the ease of installing software with the most underrated piece of software. URPMI. etc, etc...
Sorry for my bad English...
5 • Madrake ads (by David on 2003-09-15 20:30:14 GMT)
Mandrake could simply put all the Ads in a "mandrake_ads.rpm" that could be unchecked by paying customers but not by free download...
6 • Distro list for Older PC's (by John Gabriel at 2003-09-16 00:04:52 GMT)
Ladislav,
Any word whether you are going to set up a list of distro's suitable for older PC's, as you mentioned last week?
John Gabriel
7 • Mandrake ads (by Jerry on 2003-09-16 00:16:49 GMT)
There were ads in the installer of 9.1... I seem to remember similar ads in 9.0 (which you didn't see if you viewed details as the packages were installed) so nothing new there. Granted, they were ads for Mandrake services, but they were ads. There were bookmarks to paid services too. Doesn't seem all that different to me. Now ads in screensavers... THAT was a bad thing to even bring up. *That's* intrusive. Looks like they're not going to do that now. So their MandrakeExpert ad in the installer becomes an ad for IBM. What's the hubbub, Bub? They let me download it for free, the least I could do is ignore an ad. Or (gasp) worse yet... click on it. Even if they did put them in the screensaver it's pretty easy to shut your screensaver off and not all that hard to remove the package and build it from source. I like Mandrake. If it keeps the distros coming, I can deal.
(Thanks for the article, Ladislav, I enjoy your site.)
8 • Support Mandrake (by Benoît Audouard at 2003-09-16 00:22:13 GMT)
Well if Mandrake were to put ads instead of screensavers, maybe one of them (I still have not identified it) would not freeze my gnome desktop...
Fortunately they took the right step : include it in install screens which I do not bother (12 minutes at most...).
I could tolerate it as long as I can choose to keep them (i.e. have a way to override those ads I do not like, by installing an rpm, that's it).
Choose to support Mandrake : now there are three possibilities
- keep ads and visit them on occasion (reminds me of pay per service, when sometimes I doubt on the ROI of the service)
- adhere to MandrakeClub and get access to extended services
- provide Mandrake with feedback on http://qa.mandrakesoft.com to enhance the level of service for the whole linux community (through Mandrake)
Well, as far as I'm concerned, I've chosen the third option. I suppose my time may be worth more than 60 euros a year, as I spend more than 30 minutes at it and enjoy it... that's not cash that's contribution : the way I understand Free spirit (if I can do it why not *any*one else, even better ?)
9 • RE: Distro list for Older PC's (by ladislav at 2003-09-16 03:58:47 GMT)
Any word whether you are going to set up a list of distro's suitable for older PC's, as you mentioned last week?
Yes, as soon as I get the time :-) I'll take anything pre-PII as old hardware. Unfortunately, you are going to be disappointed with your options - there aren't many projects catering for old hardware. We've got DeLi, Drinou and Damn Small Linux (if installed on HD), possibly Vector. Any other suggestions?
10 • Ben hangs his head in shame and embarrassment (by Benjamin Vander Jagt at 2003-09-16 05:25:16 GMT)
I thought I'd better clear up what I said earlier about Gnome 2.4. I hope it doesn't sound like I think DistroWatch should be covering puny news items like that.
I feel really stupid, though, because directly underneath the link that I clicked to find out from Gnome what they said about their new release, they have a link to a news article regarding that release! Doh! *shamefully removes Burger King hat and puts on Dunce hat*
Carry on. (-:
By the way, I just installed Slackware on a P200MMX and browsed the 'net earlier today. I was not pleased with the graphical browsers and bailed out and went with Lynx, but it seems to be sound. Vector really is quite good, though, as it is the current recordholder for supported hardware, which is especially impressive for a Linux on a 225MB ISO.
11 • RE: Distro list for Older PC's (by Bill Hogue at 2003-09-16 11:44:24 GMT)
>>We've got DeLi, Drinou and Damn Small Linux (if installed on HD), possibly Vector. Any other suggestions?<<
How about...
TTY Linux (www.tzi.de/~pharao90/ttylinux/)
"at least a 386SX processor and 10 megabytes of RAM"
TINY Linux (tiny.seul.org/en/)
"Tiny Linux is a small Linux distribution designed especially for old recycled computers.... i386 or better"
BasicLinux (gd.tuwien.ac.at/opsys/linux/baslinux/)
"BasicLinux is a good distribution for an old 486"
I have BasicLinux running on a 486slc, 16Mb RAM, 170Mb HDD, no CD-ROM. Why? Good clean CLI fun.
Readers with _spare_ older machines should also consider IPCOP (or similar distros). IPCOP runs on old hardware and it makes old PCs really useful. I have it on a Pentium MMX-166.
12 • Mandrake Ads (by DaveW on 2003-09-16 17:01:28 GMT)
Good summary of the Mandrake ad controversy. I agree with all your points except one: "they cannot make it too easy to turn the advertising off - that's if they are serious about attracting sponsors."
This is a myth that doesn't stand up to the light of reason. It does an advertiser no good to shove their ads on people who have no interest in what's being sold. With a very narrow market like that represented by Linux desktop users, an advertiser should have an easy time getting people WANTING to get their story. I'm always interested in Linux products. It's one reason people buy computer magazines. If an advertiser can't get people in a highly specialized market to pay attention to their ads without trying to force attention, either they're advertising in the wrong place, have a useless product, or don't know how to tell their story. If the problem is one of the latter two, they should seriously consider getting out of the business.
I see no problems with Mandrake's ad scheme, but only if they make the ads freely deletable. Again, if the ads are for interesting products and well done, the target users will read them and bookmark their home pages. It will do no good for the users to keep seeing the same old ads over and over again -- even those who were interested will get irritated and start feeling hostile.
Even tho I don't much care for Mandrake's distro, I hope they do the ads right and live long and prosper. They're just about the only major commercial distro that makes an effort to live up to the spirit of free and open software.
13 • RE: Distro list for Older PC's (by L Gandolfo at 2003-09-16 20:08:21 GMT)
Ladislav,
I visited the home page of the above mentioned Turbo Desktop Enviroment (TDE).
It sounds like a good project, and possibly not only for older hardware.
Most unfortunately nobody so far has offered the developer a mirror so that TDE can be downloaded.
Any idea on how we could help?
Thanks
14 • anger managenet ... (by Turbo at 2003-09-19 07:18:40 GMT)
I've tried Debian 3.0, Redhat 6.2 & 9.0, Knoppix 3.2, Mandrake 7.1 & 9.0, Peanut 9.5, Damn Small Linux and FreeBSD 4.4 & 4.8 ... I found out that:
NOT ONE will work fully on any of 50 or so Pentium 1’s [x86] boxes that I /we have here,
MOST will NOT pick up on hardware properly, mainly NIC [not even NE2000 ISA], sound cards and video,
Most are hard to reconfigure or need [literally] a University degree to do so.
Any changes in hardware after install are futile.
I / we seem to have wasted 3 months trying to install and configure these pieces of OS crap.
My question is this:
Is there a version of Linux that will work readily on
1. Pentium 1 - 60 MHz, 16 MB of memory, 500 MB hard-drive
2. same as above and all SCSI?
... without need for pissing around at console / prompt, trying to find commands
[that seem to be hidden],
- picks up on Video, NIC & Sound cards readily,
- set's up SVGA monitors to run 800x600 NOT 640x480,
- has administration for DHCP and will setup shares to winblows boxes easily,
- has comprehensive easy to use help files,
- includes: distributed networking / clustering, KDE / GNOME or similar [I don't give
a shit which version] .. that can be setup as server or workstation,
- has similar toys that come with win98 & MAC-OS, easily installs / updates apps,
- has some form of full Office software,
- uses the 3 step rule [most people if they can't solve / configure within 3 easy steps dump it to file 13 (trash)],
and the KISS rule [keep it simple stupid],
Just in case: all hardware had been checked with factory diags, numerous hardware diags, also in CP/M, Mac-OS and winblows. All monitors work @ 800x600 or better in all accept in Unix based OS. Don’t bother to tell me I / we haven’t read the instructions either.
Up to this point I've never seen such a crappy designed and disorganized OS ... that's worse than winblows yet.
Your help would be much appreciated.
thanks
Turbo [network & systems analyst]
Have u screamed your harley today?
15 • Turbo - your hardware is somewhat underspec'ed (by Richard Lloyd at 2003-09-19 09:42:15 GMT)
Turbo's post about his P1 60Mhz, 16MB RAM machine, 500MB hard drive PCs seems perplexing - I'd have a hard time believing that that spec even works well for, say, Windows 95. You then go on to say you want a full graphical desktop *and* a full Office suite on said hardware !
That hardware spec sounds more than 5 years old to me and companies generally have a 3-5 year lifespan for their PCs - I think expecting a full graphical desktop running a full Office package in 16MB RAM is, let's say, "wildly optimistic". I might have been able to take your posting more seriously if you said you were trying to run a minimal graphical environment/cut-down system, but your operational requirements make your posting look like a troll :-( Get some new hardware and come back when you're ready to talk more sensibly...
16 • Turbo(charged) hardware (by L Gandolfo at 2003-09-19 14:34:51 GMT)
Dear Sir,
I don't want to sound disrepectful, but yor hardware should be in a museum.
However I read that somebody managed to run linux in a Commodore 64 (it should be easy to find: Google search).
Having said that here in Britain I can buy a refurbished desktop for abot £120=$192 with specs that make it TURBOcharged when compared to yours. For £400 I can get the very best and latest (again, second hand)
It is a myth that if you want to run a modern linux, with Kde, Open Office and everyting, you can use something as old as your Pc. Even DamnSmall will need a swap and a root partition, and your HD is hardly big enough.
17 • Old computer (by Mr. Joseph on 2003-09-19 16:50:26 GMT)
Have you considered DOS v3.1?
18 • re: ppl (by turbo at 2003-09-19 23:13:51 GMT)
I undestand the boxes are older, defunct and whatever.
If you read into my plight u may see that i'm trying to use up old boxes to create a cluster and or distributed network. There's method to my madness. If Linux is advertized as being able to run on 486 then let's see it!
I have p2's / 3's and 4's here and they're not my point. I'd rather use them for more constructive tasks. Besides, Linux has hard time with new PC's as well .. I've been there already. I have win98, win2k, mac-os and a hell of a lot of things you can only dream about. There are distors out there that will run off floppies for ^$#@$@ sakes.
I don't care which version of KDE, Gnome etc. as long as it works and it's stable for my requirements.
Damn Small Linux will install on a P-1 25MHz with less than 250mb used and will run .. that's not the problem, it has no cluster options.
All i want is a distro that WORKS, picks up on hardware properly, is easy to use, supports DHCP, can tie into winblows, clusters and whatever else i mentioned.
This is what I need to know.
Thanks
19 • More about Turbo's worries. (by L Gandolfo on 2003-09-20 02:20:36 GMT)
I won't try to fully reply your last post, I don't know if that is even possible.
I want only to add a few comments.
1)If you are looking for help and suggestions with linux, maybe this isn't the right place. A much better place could be the extremetech forum, section 'linux help'. There you'll find Unix developers with decades of experience.
2) What you are asking in the last line of your post from an operating system, ANY operating system which should run on such low spec boxes is A LOT.
3)Regarding 'linux having hard time with new PC's as well', I am not aware of that at all. I have a HP notebook, which is notoriously not particularly linux friendly, and yet the majority of distros, especially Debian based, run just fine.
Most in fact work a lot better than M$ XP.
At the end of the day, if you find linux to be such 'crap', as you said in your first post, why bother with it?
Somebody suggested DOS 3.1, which I am told was such a wonderful perating system...
20 • Thank you L Gandolfo :-) (by Turbo at 2003-09-20 16:31:34 GMT)
I really appreciate your advice. This is what I've been looking for. Good references :)
I'm not the first to ask for such. Many have older systems that still work great [even though they waste more hydro then their worth] and want to use them used anyway.
I KNOW it's possible, the versitility of Linux is stagering. What bugs me is Linux developers have gone the way of Microcrap by creating BLOATWARE when it's not neccessary. Most users would be happy with an OS that's simple to use and advanced enough to have all the toys / tools. Just take a look at http://mulinux.sunsite.dk/ and http://dragonlinux.sourceforge.net/about.php and http://independence.seul.org/ to see efforts to provide what real USERS want and NEED... not kids or women who like pretty desktops.
If I wanted DOS 3.1 or 3.11 I'd have not posted here. This comment is out of line by all.
Many distros are crap because opportunities are there to create seamless installs, all that I've asked and much more. There should be no problem creating a such a server OS!
From looking around the distros I've found all that's needed but no-one has put it into one package or let users to build their own easily.
The only reason I posted here is I've lost the link to a person that did just what I've asked and much more. The guy built a cluster to use as supercomputer for cracking lost passwords, high end math, propulsion design, high end graphics etc. He also used it to tarpit Worms, intruders, security / intelligence like http://all.net/WG/index.html, Office apps etc. All on 25 [386 to P1] boxes. Total cost $150 US.
Now that's a cluster! and this is what linux is capable of :P
Thanks again for your advice L Gandolfo. I'll go there :)
21 • A few final words to Turbo (by L Gandolfo on 2003-09-20 18:02:57 GMT)
I don't have very much to add, really.
Only that by carefully reading all your posts here, you don't seem to know what you want: in your first post you tell us what a crap linux is, in the last one what miracles linux can perform...
I very much doubt that 'real USERS' can't take one of the hundreds of distros and customize it to the their needs. And anyway you just mentioned an example of somebody who did.
Has linux become too bloated? Maybe, but any mainstream distro will offer you a minimal install, and at least ONE among them should be satisfactory.
If not, why not use a source distro? You just use the kernel and you add just the software you need...
What else can I say? Good luck with your experiments and I hope you find peace with yourself.
And by the way, while I am writing I am working from inside Ximian Desktop 2. It is beatiful, not bloated unless you want to, wonderful working enviroment. But of course it needs hardware with at least medium specs to run. In my opinion there is a linux almost for any taste.
But any rule must have its exceptions...
Number of Comments: 21
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| Archives |
| • Issue 1180 (2026-07-06): FreeBSD 15.1 and rumours of its installer capabilities, tools for running admin commands, Asahi fixes boot issue, reasons to run Gentoo, Ubuntu reverts Rust-based copy command, Astral gets WINE port |
| • Issue 1179 (2026-06-29): PCLinuxOS 2026.05, tips for switching distros, COSMIC gets a new system monitor, Xfce tests new Wayland compositor, FreeBSD developers invite questions |
| • Issue 1178 (2026-06-22): TBLock reviewed, the AUR compromised, Fedora's growing community, reasons to avoid immutable desktop distributions, Ubuntu to get speech-to-text, Canonical updates its beta policy, highlights in Plasma 6.7 |
| • Issue 1177 (2026-06-15): TROMjaro 2026.05.08, Ubuntu MATE updates, Asahi fixes dual-boot issue with macOS 27, AUR infected with malware, setting variables across shells |
| • Issue 1176 (2026-06-08): Redcore Linux 2601, the problem with minimal system requirements, Red Hat account linked to compromised npm repositories, COSMIC to get frosted glass effect, openSUSE shows off system extension manager, Origami merges with RakuOS |
| • Issue 1175 (2026-06-01): PineTab2 with various distros, less common words of wisdom, Canonical shutting down Ubuntu's Pastebin, Murena nears 100k users, DistroWatch turns 25 |
| • Issue 1174 (2026-05-25): Solus 4.9, Linux tablets, Haiku boots on Apple M1 machines, Fedora drops Deepin packages, Mint improves Nemo performance |
| • Issue 1173 (2026-05-18): Sylve on FreeBSD, the benefit of BleachBit, Debian commits to reproducible builds, Debian publishes updated install media, Haiku introduces SMP support on ARM64 processors, Rocky Linux creates opt-in security repository, Fedora reconsiders AI tools, KDE receives generous donation |
| • Issue 1172 (2026-05-11): Fedora 44, dealing with extra fonts, Fedora plans to provide AI tools, problems with Ubuntu's new coreutils, TrueNAS extends its development cycle, postmarktetOS improves the boot splash screen, Redox ports tmux |
| • Issue 1171 (2026-05-04): Xubuntu 26.04, extending memory with VRAM, Ubuntu plans AI features, Devuan developer forks GTK2, Mint introduces hardware enablement builds, Linux running on a PlayStation 5, local kernel exploit found in Linux |
| • Issue 1170 (2026-04-27): ENux 5.2.1, picking a second distro, AlmaLinux expands CPU support, FreeBSD publishes Status Report, Ubuntu MATE skips 26.04 release |
| • Issue 1169 (2026-04-20): Lakka 6.1, free software and source-based distributions, FreeBSD Foundation publishes compatible laptop list, Debian holds Project Leader election, Haiku progresses ARM64 port, Mint to extend development cycle, Linux 7.0 released |
| • Issue 1168 (2026-04-13): pearOS 2026.03, EndeavourOS 2026.03.06, which distros are adopting age verification, Arch adjusts its firewall packages, Linux dropping i486 support, Red Hat extends its release cycle, Debian's APT introduces rollbacks, Redox improves its scheduler |
| • Issue 1167 (2026-04-06): Origami Linux 2026.03, answering questions for Linux newcomers, Ubuntu MATE seeking new contributors, Ubuntu software centre is expanding Deb support, FreeBSD fixes forum exploit, openSUSE 15 Leap nears its end of life |
| • Issue 1166 (2026-03-30): NetBSD jails, publishing software for Linux, Ubuntu joins Rust Foundation, Canonical plans to trim GRUB features, Peppermint works on new utilities, PINE64 shows off open hardware capabilities |
| • Issue 1165 (2026-03-23): Argent Linux 1.5.3, disk space required by Linux, Manjaro team goes on strike, AlmaLinux improves NVIDIA driver support and builds RISC-V packages, systemd introduces age tracking |
| • Issue 1164 (2026-03-16): d77void, age verification laws and Linux, SUSE may be for sale, TrueNAS takes its build system private, Debian publishes updated Trixie media, MidnightBSD and System76 respond to age verification laws |
| • Issue 1163 (2026-03-09): KaOS 2026.02, TinyCore 17.0, NuTyX 26.02.2, Would one big collection of packages help?, Guix offers 64-bit Hurd options, Linux communities discuss age delcaration laws, Mint unveils new screensaver for Cinnamon, Redox ports new COSMIC features |
| • Issue 1162 (2026-03-02): AerynOS 2026.01, anti-virus and firewall tools, Manjaro fixes website certificate, Ubuntu splits firmware package, jails for NetBSD, extended support for some Linux kernel releases, Murena creating a map app |
| • Issue 1161 (2026-02-23): The Guix package manager, quick Q&As, Gentoo migrating its mirrors, Fedora considers more informative kernel panic screens, GhostBSD testing alternative X11 implementation, Asahi makes progress with Apple M3, NetBSD userland ported, FreeBSD improves web-based system management |
| • Issue 1160 (2026-02-16): Noid and AgarimOS, command line tips, KDE Linux introduces delta updates, Redox OS hits development milestone, Linux Mint develops a desktop-neutral account manager, sudo developer seeks sponsorship |
| • Issue 1159 (2026-02-09): Sharing files on a network, isolating processes on Linux, LFS to focus on systemd, openSUSE polishes atomic updates, NetBSD not likely to adopt Rust code, COSMIC roadmap |
| • Issue 1158 (2026-02-02): Manjaro 26.0, fastest filesystem, postmarketOS progress report, Xfce begins developing its own Wayland window manager, Bazzite founder interviewed |
| • Issue 1157 (2026-01-26): Setting up a home server, what happened to convergence, malicious software entering the Snap store, postmarketOS automates hardware tests, KDE's login manager works with systemd only |
| • Issue 1156 (2026-01-19): Chimera Linux's new installer, using the DistroWatch Torrent Corner, new package tools for Arch, Haiku improves EFI support, Redcore streamlines branches, Synex introduces install-time ZFS options |
| • Issue 1155 (2026-01-12): MenuetOS, CDE on Sparky, iDeal OS 2025.12.07, recommended flavour of BSD, Debian seeks new Data Protection Team, Ubuntu 25.04 nears its end of life, Google limits Android source code releases, Fedora plans to replace SDDM, Budgie migrates to Wayland |
| • Issue 1154 (2026-01-05): postmarketOS 25.06/25.12, switching to Linux and educational resources, FreeBSD improving laptop support, Unix v4 available for download, new X11 server in development, CachyOS team plans server edtion |
| • Issue 1153 (2025-12-22): Best projects of 2025, is software ever truly finished?, Firefox to adopt AI components, Asahi works on improving the install experience, Mageia presents plans for version 10 |
| • Issue 1152 (2025-12-15): OpenBSD 7.8, filtering websites, Jolla working on a Linux phone, Germany saves money with Linux, Ubuntu to package AMD tools, Fedora demonstrates AI troubleshooting, Haiku packages Go language |
| • Issue 1151 (2025-12-08): FreeBSD 15.0, fun command line tricks, Canonical presents plans for Ubutnu 26.04, SparkyLinux updates CDE packages, Redox OS gets modesetting driver |
| • Issue 1150 (2025-12-01): Gnoppix 25_10, exploring if distributions matter, openSUSE updates tumbleweed's boot loader, Fedora plans better handling of broken packages, Plasma to become Wayland-only, FreeBSD publishes status report |
| • Issue 1149 (2025-11-24): MX Linux 25, why are video drivers special, systemd experiments with musl, Debian Libre Live publishes new media, Xubuntu reviews website hack |
| • Issue 1148 (2025-11-17): Zorin OS 18, deleting a file with an unusual name, NetBSD experiments with sandboxing, postmarketOS unifies its documentation, OpenBSD refines upgrades, Canonical offers 15 years of support for Ubuntu |
| • Issue 1147 (2025-11-10): Fedora 43, the size and stability of the Linux kernel, Debian introducing Rust to APT, Redox ports web engine, Kubuntu website off-line, Mint creates new troubleshooting tools, FreeBSD improves reproducible builds, Flatpak development resumes |
| • Issue 1146 (2025-11-03): StartOS 0.4.0, testing piped commands, Ubuntu Unity seeks help, Canonical offers Ubuntu credentials, Red Hat partners with NVIDIA, SUSE to bundle AI agent with SLE 16 |
| • Issue 1145 (2025-10-27): Linux Mint 7 "LMDE", advice for new Linux users, AlmaLinux to offer Btrfs, KDE launches Plasma 6.5, Fedora accepts contributions written by AI, Ubuntu 25.10 fails to install automatic updates |
| • Issue 1144 (2025-10-20): Kubuntu 25.10, creating and restoring encrypted backups, Fedora team debates AI, FSF plans free software for phones, ReactOS addresses newer drivers, Xubuntu reacts to website attack |
| • Issue 1143 (2025-10-13): openSUSE 16.0 Leap, safest source for new applications, Redox introduces performance improvements, TrueNAS Connect available for testing, Flatpaks do not work on Ubuntu 25.10, Kamarada plans to switch its base, Solus enters new epoch, Frugalware discontinued |
| • Issue 1142 (2025-10-06): Linux Kamarada 15.6, managing ZIP files with SQLite, F-Droid warns of impact of Android lockdown, Alpine moves ahead with merged /usr, Cinnamon gets a redesigned application menu |
| • Issue 1141 (2025-09-29): KDE Linux and GNOME OS, finding mobile flavours of Linux, Murena to offer phones with kill switches, Redox OS running on a smartphone, Artix drops GNOME |
| • Issue 1140 (2025-09-22): NetBSD 10.1, avoiding AI services, AlmaLinux enables CRB repository, Haiku improves disk access performance, Mageia addresses service outage, GNOME 49 released, Linux introduces multikernel support |
| • Issue 1139 (2025-09-15): EasyOS 7.0, Linux and central authority, FreeBSD running Plasma 6 on Wayland, GNOME restores X11 support temporarily, openSUSE dropping BCacheFS in new kernels |
| • Issue 1138 (2025-09-08): Shebang 25.8, LibreELEC 12.2.0, Debian GNU/Hurd 2025, the importance of software updates, AerynOS introduces package sets, postmarketOS encourages patching upstream, openSUSE extends Leap support, Debian refreshes Trixie media |
| • Issue 1137 (2025-09-01): Tribblix 0m37, malware scanners flagging Linux ISO files, KDE introduces first-run setup wizard, CalyxOS plans update prior to infrastructure overhaul, FreeBSD publishes status report |
| • Issue 1136 (2025-08-25): CalyxOS 6.8.20, distros for running containers, Arch Linux website under attack,illumos Cafe launched, CachyOS creates web dashboard for repositories |
| • Issue 1135 (2025-08-18): Debian 13, Proton, WINE, Wayland, and Wayback, Debian GNU/Hurd 2025, KDE gets advanced Liquid Glass, Haiku improves authentication tools |
| • Issue 1134 (2025-08-11): Rhino Linux 2025.3, thoughts on malware in the AUR, Fedora brings hammered websites back on-line, NetBSD reveals features for version 11, Ubuntu swaps some command line tools for 25.10, AlmaLinux improves NVIDIA support |
| • Issue 1133 (2025-08-04): Expirion Linux 6.0, running Plasma on Linux Mint, finding distros which support X11, Debian addresses 22 year old bug, FreeBSD discusses potential issues with pkgbase, CDE ported to OpenBSD, Btrfs corruption bug hitting Fedora users, more malware found in Arch User Repository |
| • Issue 1132 (2025-07-28): deepin 25, wars in the open source community, proposal to have Fedora enable Flathub repository, FreeBSD plans desktop install option, Wayback gets its first release |
| • Issue 1131 (2025-07-21): HeliumOS 10.0, settling on one distro, Mint plans new releases, Arch discovers malware in AUR, Plasma Bigscreen returns, Clear Linux discontinued |
| • Issue 1130 (2025-07-14): openSUSE MicroOS and RefreshOS, sharing aliases between computers, Bazzite makes Bazaar its default Flatpak store, Alpine plans Wayback release, Wayland and X11 benchmarked, Red Hat offers additional developer licenses, openSUSE seeks feedback from ARM users, Ubuntu 24.10 reaches the end of its life |
| • Issue 1129 (2025-07-07): GLF OS Omnislash, the worst Linux distro, Alpine introduces Wayback, Fedora drops plans to stop i686 support, AlmaLinux builds EPEL repository for older CPUs, Ubuntu dropping existing RISC-V device support, Rhino partners with UBports, PCLinuxOS recovering from website outage |
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