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1 • Mandrake's ads (by Benjamin Vander Jagt at 2003-09-15 13:40:16 GMT) |
I guess there's nothing to worry about except Mandrake possibly looking stupid and alienating some sponsors. If they insert ads that the customers actually like, and if the sponsors aren't swept under the rug, that's no problem.
If they upset any customers with it being too intrusive or even the slightest bit annoying, we'll see a clone Linux like, say, Mandrunk or Mandark.
I remember reading that Microsoft bought Red Hat. A friend of mine (who is not much of a Linux fan) said, "Haha, there goes Linux's stability! No more free operating system." I coolly responded, "Red Hat Linux is GPL. There's no way that they can take back the freedom of the operating system. The most that Microsoft could do from that is make Red Hat crappy to try to ruin Linux's reputation."
Don't believe me? Do a Google search, "Microsoft Acquires Red Hat"
(It's a hoax page. A very good one.)
And I sure am curious about Voodoo Linux! They make a pretty heavy claim about being able to run Windows applications seamlessly without using Wine. I'm not sure if they still make that claim, but it would be interesting to see how this new version works.
Anyone have any idea why the release of Gnome 2.4 made precisely no news anywhere? I'm getting ready to build it myself (by hand, since Garnome! never works.)
2 • Good commentary on Mandrake's Ads Fiasco (by Leo on 2003-09-15 14:46:56 GMT)
I think you couldn't put this in a simpler, clearer way:
* KEEP the distro ADS FREE for PAYING CUSTOMERS,
* Put ADS for FREE-RIDERS
This is it, that would keep paying customers happy, would make free-riders consider to start buying, and it would keep advertisers happy too. How many of their millions of users buy the distro anyways ?
But as you point out, it is not clear that this is what they'll do. And this is a shame. Their clarification was not really helpful.
Now, as for the community response. They have to make a living for God's sake. Let them grow. This is a GREAT way (if they do it right).
3 • I don't see the problem about what Mandrake wants (by Paul at 2003-09-15 16:43:03 GMT)
If anyone has installed one of the more recent Redhat editions, then they have seen advertising in the installer. It is simple, clear, and actually pretty. Having little pieces of IBM would be fine there. Redhat is already glorifying their own accomplishments, so why not have some Oracle plugs. It benefits me whether or not it is a paid version, because now more money goes to redhat.
Now for the slippery slope argument. Yeah, ads could get intrusive, but having them in the installer isn't. You could argue principle, but mozilla defaults to mozilla, yet Redhat's pre-installed mozilla defaults to redhat. Most distros already have links to sites pertaining to the company, although in a "support" form.
This idea is fine as long as it isn't abused.
4 • ads in Mandrake 9.2 (by Luk van den Borne at 2003-09-15 17:32:24 GMT)
What's the big deal about those ads? You'll only see them once. Bookmarks can be deleted easily, as well as the home page. Installing is also a one-time event. Those actions do not make a stand against the time Mandrake will save you by automatically detecting every bit of hardware in your pc and the ease of installing software with the most underrated piece of software. URPMI. etc, etc...
Sorry for my bad English...
5 • Madrake ads (by David on 2003-09-15 20:30:14 GMT)
Mandrake could simply put all the Ads in a "mandrake_ads.rpm" that could be unchecked by paying customers but not by free download...
6 • Distro list for Older PC's (by John Gabriel at 2003-09-16 00:04:52 GMT)
Any word whether you are going to set up a list of distro's suitable for older PC's, as you mentioned last week?
7 • Mandrake ads (by Jerry on 2003-09-16 00:16:49 GMT)
There were ads in the installer of 9.1... I seem to remember similar ads in 9.0 (which you didn't see if you viewed details as the packages were installed) so nothing new there. Granted, they were ads for Mandrake services, but they were ads. There were bookmarks to paid services too. Doesn't seem all that different to me. Now ads in screensavers... THAT was a bad thing to even bring up. *That's* intrusive. Looks like they're not going to do that now. So their MandrakeExpert ad in the installer becomes an ad for IBM. What's the hubbub, Bub? They let me download it for free, the least I could do is ignore an ad. Or (gasp) worse yet... click on it. Even if they did put them in the screensaver it's pretty easy to shut your screensaver off and not all that hard to remove the package and build it from source. I like Mandrake. If it keeps the distros coming, I can deal.
(Thanks for the article, Ladislav, I enjoy your site.)
8 • Support Mandrake (by Benoît Audouard at 2003-09-16 00:22:13 GMT)
Well if Mandrake were to put ads instead of screensavers, maybe one of them (I still have not identified it) would not freeze my gnome desktop...
Fortunately they took the right step : include it in install screens which I do not bother (12 minutes at most...).
I could tolerate it as long as I can choose to keep them (i.e. have a way to override those ads I do not like, by installing an rpm, that's it).
Choose to support Mandrake : now there are three possibilities
- keep ads and visit them on occasion (reminds me of pay per service, when sometimes I doubt on the ROI of the service)
- adhere to MandrakeClub and get access to extended services
- provide Mandrake with feedback on http://qa.mandrakesoft.com to enhance the level of service for the whole linux community (through Mandrake)
Well, as far as I'm concerned, I've chosen the third option. I suppose my time may be worth more than 60 euros a year, as I spend more than 30 minutes at it and enjoy it... that's not cash that's contribution : the way I understand Free spirit (if I can do it why not *any*one else, even better ?)
9 • RE: Distro list for Older PC's (by ladislav at 2003-09-16 03:58:47 GMT)
Any word whether you are going to set up a list of distro's suitable for older PC's, as you mentioned last week?
Yes, as soon as I get the time :-) I'll take anything pre-PII as old hardware. Unfortunately, you are going to be disappointed with your options - there aren't many projects catering for old hardware. We've got DeLi, Drinou and Damn Small Linux (if installed on HD), possibly Vector. Any other suggestions?
10 • Ben hangs his head in shame and embarrassment (by Benjamin Vander Jagt at 2003-09-16 05:25:16 GMT)
I thought I'd better clear up what I said earlier about Gnome 2.4. I hope it doesn't sound like I think DistroWatch should be covering puny news items like that.
I feel really stupid, though, because directly underneath the link that I clicked to find out from Gnome what they said about their new release, they have a link to a news article regarding that release! Doh! *shamefully removes Burger King hat and puts on Dunce hat*
Carry on. (-:
By the way, I just installed Slackware on a P200MMX and browsed the 'net earlier today. I was not pleased with the graphical browsers and bailed out and went with Lynx, but it seems to be sound. Vector really is quite good, though, as it is the current recordholder for supported hardware, which is especially impressive for a Linux on a 225MB ISO.
11 • RE: Distro list for Older PC's (by Bill Hogue at 2003-09-16 11:44:24 GMT)
>>We've got DeLi, Drinou and Damn Small Linux (if installed on HD), possibly Vector. Any other suggestions?<<
TTY Linux (www.tzi.de/~pharao90/ttylinux/)
"at least a 386SX processor and 10 megabytes of RAM"
TINY Linux (tiny.seul.org/en/)
"Tiny Linux is a small Linux distribution designed especially for old recycled computers.... i386 or better"
"BasicLinux is a good distribution for an old 486"
I have BasicLinux running on a 486slc, 16Mb RAM, 170Mb HDD, no CD-ROM. Why? Good clean CLI fun.
Readers with _spare_ older machines should also consider IPCOP (or similar distros). IPCOP runs on old hardware and it makes old PCs really useful. I have it on a Pentium MMX-166.
12 • Mandrake Ads (by DaveW on 2003-09-16 17:01:28 GMT)
Good summary of the Mandrake ad controversy. I agree with all your points except one: "they cannot make it too easy to turn the advertising off - that's if they are serious about attracting sponsors."
This is a myth that doesn't stand up to the light of reason. It does an advertiser no good to shove their ads on people who have no interest in what's being sold. With a very narrow market like that represented by Linux desktop users, an advertiser should have an easy time getting people WANTING to get their story. I'm always interested in Linux products. It's one reason people buy computer magazines. If an advertiser can't get people in a highly specialized market to pay attention to their ads without trying to force attention, either they're advertising in the wrong place, have a useless product, or don't know how to tell their story. If the problem is one of the latter two, they should seriously consider getting out of the business.
I see no problems with Mandrake's ad scheme, but only if they make the ads freely deletable. Again, if the ads are for interesting products and well done, the target users will read them and bookmark their home pages. It will do no good for the users to keep seeing the same old ads over and over again -- even those who were interested will get irritated and start feeling hostile.
Even tho I don't much care for Mandrake's distro, I hope they do the ads right and live long and prosper. They're just about the only major commercial distro that makes an effort to live up to the spirit of free and open software.
13 • RE: Distro list for Older PC's (by L Gandolfo at 2003-09-16 20:08:21 GMT)
I visited the home page of the above mentioned Turbo Desktop Enviroment (TDE).
It sounds like a good project, and possibly not only for older hardware.
Most unfortunately nobody so far has offered the developer a mirror so that TDE can be downloaded.
Any idea on how we could help?
14 • anger managenet ... (by Turbo at 2003-09-19 07:18:40 GMT)
I've tried Debian 3.0, Redhat 6.2 & 9.0, Knoppix 3.2, Mandrake 7.1 & 9.0, Peanut 9.5, Damn Small Linux and FreeBSD 4.4 & 4.8 ... I found out that:
NOT ONE will work fully on any of 50 or so Pentium 1’s [x86] boxes that I /we have here,
MOST will NOT pick up on hardware properly, mainly NIC [not even NE2000 ISA], sound cards and video,
Most are hard to reconfigure or need [literally] a University degree to do so.
Any changes in hardware after install are futile.
I / we seem to have wasted 3 months trying to install and configure these pieces of OS crap.
My question is this:
Is there a version of Linux that will work readily on
1. Pentium 1 - 60 MHz, 16 MB of memory, 500 MB hard-drive
2. same as above and all SCSI?
... without need for pissing around at console / prompt, trying to find commands
[that seem to be hidden],
- picks up on Video, NIC & Sound cards readily,
- set's up SVGA monitors to run 800x600 NOT 640x480,
- has administration for DHCP and will setup shares to winblows boxes easily,
- has comprehensive easy to use help files,
- includes: distributed networking / clustering, KDE / GNOME or similar [I don't give
a shit which version] .. that can be setup as server or workstation,
- has similar toys that come with win98 & MAC-OS, easily installs / updates apps,
- has some form of full Office software,
- uses the 3 step rule [most people if they can't solve / configure within 3 easy steps dump it to file 13 (trash)],
and the KISS rule [keep it simple stupid],
Just in case: all hardware had been checked with factory diags, numerous hardware diags, also in CP/M, Mac-OS and winblows. All monitors work @ 800x600 or better in all accept in Unix based OS. Don’t bother to tell me I / we haven’t read the instructions either.
Up to this point I've never seen such a crappy designed and disorganized OS ... that's worse than winblows yet.
Your help would be much appreciated.
Turbo [network & systems analyst]
Have u screamed your harley today?
15 • Turbo - your hardware is somewhat underspec'ed (by Richard Lloyd at 2003-09-19 09:42:15 GMT)
Turbo's post about his P1 60Mhz, 16MB RAM machine, 500MB hard drive PCs seems perplexing - I'd have a hard time believing that that spec even works well for, say, Windows 95. You then go on to say you want a full graphical desktop *and* a full Office suite on said hardware !
That hardware spec sounds more than 5 years old to me and companies generally have a 3-5 year lifespan for their PCs - I think expecting a full graphical desktop running a full Office package in 16MB RAM is, let's say, "wildly optimistic". I might have been able to take your posting more seriously if you said you were trying to run a minimal graphical environment/cut-down system, but your operational requirements make your posting look like a troll :-( Get some new hardware and come back when you're ready to talk more sensibly...
16 • Turbo(charged) hardware (by L Gandolfo at 2003-09-19 14:34:51 GMT)
I don't want to sound disrepectful, but yor hardware should be in a museum.
However I read that somebody managed to run linux in a Commodore 64 (it should be easy to find: Google search).
Having said that here in Britain I can buy a refurbished desktop for abot £120=$192 with specs that make it TURBOcharged when compared to yours. For £400 I can get the very best and latest (again, second hand)
It is a myth that if you want to run a modern linux, with Kde, Open Office and everyting, you can use something as old as your Pc. Even DamnSmall will need a swap and a root partition, and your HD is hardly big enough.
17 • Old computer (by Mr. Joseph on 2003-09-19 16:50:26 GMT)
Have you considered DOS v3.1?
18 • re: ppl (by turbo at 2003-09-19 23:13:51 GMT)
I undestand the boxes are older, defunct and whatever.
If you read into my plight u may see that i'm trying to use up old boxes to create a cluster and or distributed network. There's method to my madness. If Linux is advertized as being able to run on 486 then let's see it!
I have p2's / 3's and 4's here and they're not my point. I'd rather use them for more constructive tasks. Besides, Linux has hard time with new PC's as well .. I've been there already. I have win98, win2k, mac-os and a hell of a lot of things you can only dream about. There are distors out there that will run off floppies for ^$#@$@ sakes.
I don't care which version of KDE, Gnome etc. as long as it works and it's stable for my requirements.
Damn Small Linux will install on a P-1 25MHz with less than 250mb used and will run .. that's not the problem, it has no cluster options.
All i want is a distro that WORKS, picks up on hardware properly, is easy to use, supports DHCP, can tie into winblows, clusters and whatever else i mentioned.
This is what I need to know.
19 • More about Turbo's worries. (by L Gandolfo on 2003-09-20 02:20:36 GMT)
I won't try to fully reply your last post, I don't know if that is even possible.
I want only to add a few comments.
1)If you are looking for help and suggestions with linux, maybe this isn't the right place. A much better place could be the extremetech forum, section 'linux help'. There you'll find Unix developers with decades of experience.
2) What you are asking in the last line of your post from an operating system, ANY operating system which should run on such low spec boxes is A LOT.
3)Regarding 'linux having hard time with new PC's as well', I am not aware of that at all. I have a HP notebook, which is notoriously not particularly linux friendly, and yet the majority of distros, especially Debian based, run just fine.
Most in fact work a lot better than M$ XP.
At the end of the day, if you find linux to be such 'crap', as you said in your first post, why bother with it?
Somebody suggested DOS 3.1, which I am told was such a wonderful perating system...
20 • Thank you L Gandolfo :-) (by Turbo at 2003-09-20 16:31:34 GMT)
I really appreciate your advice. This is what I've been looking for. Good references :)
I'm not the first to ask for such. Many have older systems that still work great [even though they waste more hydro then their worth] and want to use them used anyway.
I KNOW it's possible, the versitility of Linux is stagering. What bugs me is Linux developers have gone the way of Microcrap by creating BLOATWARE when it's not neccessary. Most users would be happy with an OS that's simple to use and advanced enough to have all the toys / tools. Just take a look at http://mulinux.sunsite.dk/ and http://dragonlinux.sourceforge.net/about.php and http://independence.seul.org/ to see efforts to provide what real USERS want and NEED... not kids or women who like pretty desktops.
If I wanted DOS 3.1 or 3.11 I'd have not posted here. This comment is out of line by all.
Many distros are crap because opportunities are there to create seamless installs, all that I've asked and much more. There should be no problem creating a such a server OS!
From looking around the distros I've found all that's needed but no-one has put it into one package or let users to build their own easily.
The only reason I posted here is I've lost the link to a person that did just what I've asked and much more. The guy built a cluster to use as supercomputer for cracking lost passwords, high end math, propulsion design, high end graphics etc. He also used it to tarpit Worms, intruders, security / intelligence like http://all.net/WG/index.html, Office apps etc. All on 25 [386 to P1] boxes. Total cost $150 US.
Now that's a cluster! and this is what linux is capable of :P
Thanks again for your advice L Gandolfo. I'll go there :)
21 • A few final words to Turbo (by L Gandolfo on 2003-09-20 18:02:57 GMT)
I don't have very much to add, really.
Only that by carefully reading all your posts here, you don't seem to know what you want: in your first post you tell us what a crap linux is, in the last one what miracles linux can perform...
I very much doubt that 'real USERS' can't take one of the hundreds of distros and customize it to the their needs. And anyway you just mentioned an example of somebody who did.
Has linux become too bloated? Maybe, but any mainstream distro will offer you a minimal install, and at least ONE among them should be satisfactory.
If not, why not use a source distro? You just use the kernel and you add just the software you need...
What else can I say? Good luck with your experiments and I hope you find peace with yourself.
And by the way, while I am writing I am working from inside Ximian Desktop 2. It is beatiful, not bloated unless you want to, wonderful working enviroment. But of course it needs hardware with at least medium specs to run. In my opinion there is a linux almost for any taste.
But any rule must have its exceptions...
Number of Comments: 21
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