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1 • About desktop CentOS users... (by Caraibes on 2009-06-15 10:34:58 GMT from Dominican Republic) |
Here is a piece of news for desktop CentOS users:
A new repo here:
2 • Fedora 11 (by KenP on 2009-06-15 10:39:21 GMT from United States)
Fedora 11's KDE4 spin is much better, and of course the Oxygen icons beat anything that tango can throw at them! Tango icons are just too -- washed out??
Anyway, this is the first fedora release that I have actually installed on my hard drive and all because of the excellent KDE4 support.
3 • review quality (by Bonsai on 2009-06-15 10:54:55 GMT from Switzerland)
"I find the technology and engineering of Fedora to be excellent, but the look and feel leaves little to be desired."
Could an English native speaker proof-read the review next time? I stopped reading at this point.
4 • geeko (by AbacusMonkey on 2009-06-15 10:58:23 GMT from Australia)
Just to correct the broken geeko link: http://www.geekobuilder.com
Cheers for another great episode guys :D
5 • No subject (by Chris on 2009-06-15 11:09:39 GMT from Germany)
Good to see that Fedora 12 is out ;)
6 • ref #1 (by Gustavo on 2009-06-15 11:13:32 GMT from United States)
When did Beranger come back to linux?
Anyways, another great issue. Thank you.
7 • Incoherent menus in Fedora (by Oscar on 2009-06-15 11:14:46 GMT from Spain)
I can´t understand why there is different places to configure SELinux (Applications->System tools menu vs. System->Administration) or to configure printers (System->Administration vs. System->Preferences) or why there is in System->Preferences menus an useless applet to configure Nautilus properties...It´s very annoying!!!!
8 • Wolvix Cub 2.0 beta1 (by Tom on 2009-06-15 11:16:59 GMT from United Kingdom)
Another fresh week back at work and having great fun there? Wolvix Cub 2.0 beta1 and Wolvix 2.0 beta2 are both looking good. There's been some discussion about different window managers and desktop environments so it's interesting to compare Cub's fluxbox with the vanilla version's xfce.
Good luck and happy Monday all :)
9 • #8 (by Xtyn on 2009-06-15 11:23:56 GMT from Romania)
Can we have a week without mentioning that distro?
10 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2009-06-15 11:24:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
"In either of those distributions the mouse will stay in line with the window boarders, as well as provide their users with more than just the ability to add wobbly windows and a desktop cube."
Could an English native speaker proofread the review next time? I stopped reading at this point.
11 • Fedora bits (by Mark Wyatt on 2009-06-15 11:25:19 GMT from United Kingdom)
I know this is a quote
"Due to a combination of factors, if installing from the live CD, you must have at least two partitions available. One will be a small (around 200 MB) /boot partition. The / (root file system) partition must be formatted as ext4 while the /boot partition must be formatted as ext3."
and it is useful that you keep people updated about such apparent snafus, but didn't you question the 'must' in there for the boot partition? Surely ext2 is just as, or more, appropriate? Or are they genuinely claiming that ext2 won't work now?
And, in your 'Released Last Week' section, the title refers to Fedora 12. You meant 11, surely?
12 • Fedora 11 Review (by KaruppuSwamy on 2009-06-15 11:27:57 GMT from United States)
I want to point out the flexible Arch Linux here, which is unique in both performance and look and feel. It is YOU, to decide which technology (ext4) you want and which look & feel you want.
Only thing is you need a few hours to do some basic configuration and customization. When ever I tried to customize Ubuntu or Fedora to support some rare hardware or to get different look & feel, it is not successful many times. But with Arch Linux, it is a cake walk.
Freedom to install, configure and customize to get high performing system - Arch Linux. Once there were issues often on system upgrade in Arch Linux. Nowadays I don't face such. What else I want for my laptop?
13 • Fedora 11 (by Miq on 2009-06-15 11:34:25 GMT from Sweden)
I recently downloaded and tried Fedora 11. On a modern desktop system of is bliss. I also for kicks tried it on an older 256 MB 1.5 ghz laptop I'm restoring for a friend, and not unexpectedly it was very hard pressed to manage KDE4. More surprisingly was that though the LiveCD worked on the old desktop the graphical installer locked up indefinitely when executing it.
Nonetheless, Fedora 11 is a very nice distro, but I think the review was lacking. Language, as was already mentioned, and also that the reviewer failed to try the KDE spin. Fedora per definition pushes edge, and complaining about it lacking in presentation when trying the GNOME spin is lacking in itself since that DE is stagnant. 11's KDE4 implementation is slick and nice and very appealing, and Fedora certainly continues its project of beautifying Linux.
The major distros for high-end aesthetically pleasing KDE4 systems atm seems to be Mandriva, SuSe and Fedora.
On other notes, I have also recently tried VectorLinux, Sidux, TEENPup and antiX. Though I got good performance trom teenpup I was quite disappointed with the cumbersome and user-hostile installer. On the old desktop Sidux ran like a dream, stable and swift, but I had issues with network connections. VectorLinux was if not overwhelming at least a solid and proficient system, AntiX was a very pleasant surprise that I happily recommend. Excellent performance and functionality, and a very nice appearance for an IceVM (iirc) desktop! Do try it, it is worth checking out.
14 • #12 (by Xtyn on 2009-06-15 11:46:39 GMT from Romania)
I always wanted to say this: Arch Linux is for sado-masochists.
I installed it, I even had the patience to run hal before startx and to add fluxbox to xinit. My patience ended with some xorg problems.
You can install Debian exactly the way you install Arch Linux but Debian automates some stuff and makes it easier. In the end, performance is about the same but with a lot less headaches from Debian and a lot more software in the repos and a rock solid distro.
15 • No subject (by cripto on 2009-06-15 11:51:33 GMT from Portugal)
i didnt like fedora review.
couldnt you find more bad things???
i like fedora, all people like it.
its the all, not the menus, and silly things like you said.
besides, if you tried several distros, youll see fedora is diferent.
11 brings a good firewall, easy to work with, a better feeling,
lighter operation and lots of novelties.
sure, you forgot SElinux.
but why? cause you dont like it. fedora is great. return to it again and
try it more.
16 • Fedora 11 + KDE (by Gene Venable on 2009-06-15 11:56:38 GMT from United States)
I installed Fedora 11 and KDE and it is beautiful; it is now the main distro I use on my desktop. This is the first time I have stayed with Fedora for more than about five minutes.
The person complaining about errors in the writing is pretty dumb if you ask me, especially since he is clearly the same one who later complains, claiming both times to have stopped reading "at this point" when it is obvious he didn't stop reading at all. Besides, anyone who stops reading because of a small mistake should stay off of the Internet entirely.
17 • Teenpup (by Fernando Gracia on 2009-06-15 12:01:52 GMT from United States)
Usually over the weekend I like to test new distros and I was expecting for Teenpup. I used 2008 on a pen drive. I just want to say that I had a lot of fun with it everything worked out of the box, well I did change /dev/cdrom for /dev/hdc to be able to listen my music and to watch my DVDs. For some of you the default desktop may be crowded, but there is a lot there, so I did installed on my hard drive and it will be for a while.
18 • ramblings on Fedora (by Xtyn on 2009-06-15 12:07:13 GMT from Romania)
Fedora is a testing platform for RHEL. If you'r a technology enthusiast, Fedora is the way to go. It's always bleeding edge.
Because it's a testing platform, they don't give much attention to the average Joe, who just wants a replacement for windblows. Red Hat made it clear that in their opinion Linux is NOT ready for the desktop.
I've never used Fedora, I've tried it but never used it. It just doesn't attract me in any way. ext4 and improved boot speed I already have on Ubuntu (by the way, Ubuntu boots faster than Fedora). :)
19 • Fedora Review (by Jose mirles on 2009-06-15 12:10:32 GMT from United States)
Good review. Easy to understand and to the point.
Strange that Fedora's Gnome version is lacking. Mandriva's Gnome version is exceptional and I don't like Gnome.
Perhaps it would be wise to review the two major DE's in a distro if they are available. It would have been nice to have read your view on Fedora with KDE4.
You didn't mention the EXT4 bug with booting. Did you installed on already existing partitions?
Finally, where is Ms Martin? Without her here it will be a BORING week! :)
20 • Fedora review (by Muhammad Fahd Waseem on 2009-06-15 12:24:25 GMT from Germany)
It's always the same: you dislike Fedora's Gnome version, people will tell you to try the KDE4 version (and praise it). You dislike the KDE4 version, and people will tell you to try the Gnome version. You dislike both, and they'll dislike you - and lamely point out as many grammatical errors.
It was a good review, Simon. A review about Fedora as YOU felt it. Don't let anyone get to you!
21 • review quality (by Noneemoose on 2009-06-15 12:25:19 GMT from Canada)
"Fedora is a leader in engineering and in implementing new technologies for Linux and when it comes to this Fedora (and Red Hat) is second to none."
Could an English native speaker proofread the review next time? I stopped reading at this point.
22 • @21 (by Sean on 2009-06-15 12:34:32 GMT from United States)
You're using poor English syntax in your, "Could an English native speaker proofread the review next time? I stopped reading at this point."
Corrected, your remarks would read, "I stopped reading after the above quoted phrase. Could a proofreader with better skills in the English language than the writer of the review correct the writer's text next time?"
23 • Fedora 11 (by rich on 2009-06-15 12:36:58 GMT from United States)
I installed Fedora 11 KDE onto 2 computers(x86 and 64-bit). It works well but there are still lingering problems. Ext4 seems to be an a major improvement. Computers seem to run a bit faster retrieving and deleting files. Overall it is good but there are some bugs.
Kpackagekit is very slow and I don't like sifting through the packages only to find two different verions available and not really knowing which one is the better to install. Yum on the other had is much quicker for downloading from konsole. Synaptic seems to be the best choice for structured installation.
Don't care for the beta Versions for Firefox and Thunderbird. Would rather have the latest stable releases instead.
24 • FreeBSD Respins (by Manolis Kiagias on 2009-06-15 12:41:45 GMT from Greece)
Thanks for mentioning my little project in Distrowatch! I was just preparing an updated version of the custom XFCE iso, if all goes well it will get uploaded later on tonight.
25 • #21 review quality (by Jack on 2009-06-15 12:44:24 GMT from Finland)
"Could an English native speaker proofread the review next time? I stopped reading at this point."
Could a non-English native speaker proofread the comments next time? I stopped reading at this point.
26 • fedora (by andk on 2009-06-15 12:46:49 GMT from Denmark)
you make me sick, yes YOU (since it's the same person)
fedora fanboy much? fedora11 is known to have several problems, not the best release this year, i rather stay with 10
27 • Better for the environment? (by uz64 on 2009-06-15 12:47:47 GMT from United States)
"Not only is this key for mobile devices like netbooks, but it's also better for the environment because users will be less likely to keep their systems turned on all the time."
Nah... hard drives seem to crash the most in systems with constantly-fluctuating temperatures and on/off cycles (in other words, the ones in machines that are shut down regularly or often). I might be in the minority here, but for that reason, any desktop I own will be on 24/7 or nearly 24/7. Sounds crazy, but this machine that I've owned since 2001... its factory hard drive still works. All the others, which were regularly shut down... their drives croaked relatively quickly. Still, faster boot times are a good thing, and are very important for netbooks and regular laptops.
28 • re 18 Xtyn on Fedora (by corneliu on 2009-06-15 12:58:05 GMT from Canada)
> "Because it's a testing platform, they don't give much attention to the average Joe, who just wants a replacement for windblows. Red Hat made it clear that in their opinion Linux is NOT ready for the desktop.
I've never used Fedora, I've tried it but never used it. It just doesn't attract me in any way. ext4 and improved boot speed I already have on Ubuntu (by the way, Ubuntu boots faster than Fedora). :)"
So I take it that you are an average Joe. I'd rather listen to what an expert has to say about Ubuntu and Fedora.
29 • re Fedora Bits (by Scott on 2009-06-15 12:59:05 GMT from United States)
@Mark Wyatt--That quote was taken from a sticky on Fedora forum. It's been corrected now, thanks. You're quite right, it should have been there in the first place.
30 • re 22and others on spelling (by corneliu on 2009-06-15 13:01:20 GMT from Canada)
Could we drop this spelling bullshit? And no, English is not my first language. The content is what matters the most.
31 • Sidux/Debian (by Juarez on 2009-06-15 13:01:45 GMT from United States)
I have been running pure Debian for several years now and am very confident with it. Now Debian/Sidux is removing prop firmware drivers from their kernel. As a desktop user, why should I have the hassle? Time to move on to Ubuntu and let the dumb computer do all the setup work. I have ~real~ work to do.
32 • This week (by Dave on 2009-06-15 13:03:15 GMT from United States)
First I installed it,the icons were ugly thanks for reading!
I'm sorry Ladislav,guess I was expecting a little more than that.
I realize there was more than that,in retrospect though that's about all I got from it.Short and sugar free.I'm not one to complain,and usually I don't.
I realize complaining is generally frowned upon here.I just wanted to get that out.
Fedora is a great distro I'm sure,just not my cup of tea.
Geeko?Kind of silly if you asked me.(I know......you didn't.)
Minor grammar errors?Ridiculous,certainly not a reason to stop reading.
Fanbois?A staple here at DWW and not going away...ever
My input was minimal this week I realize that,but input just the same.
Overall not a bad issue.Have a wonderful week in distroland!!!
33 • #26 (by John on 2009-06-15 13:20:05 GMT from Canada)
#3 and #10 the same person? They sure went to some lengths to fool Distrowatch into thinking they were from the United Kingdom and Switzerland!
34 • Fedora Review (by Jesse on 2009-06-15 13:25:14 GMT from United States)
I read and enjoyed the Fedora 11 review. I don't see what people are complaining about. The feature was easy to read (for a native English speaker).
I would have enjoyed a little more depth and detail. The review seemed to just cover installing and the look of things. Themes and icons are easy enough to change, but how about the way the system worked? Did apps work as expected or crash from time to time? Were there any surprises in the way the system handled? How did the system perform with so many cutting edge packages? How did download times compare when using presto or without it?
I realize Fedora 11 just came out, so it may be too early to get a complete review, but I would like to see a follow-up. Maybe something titled "My second week with Fedora" from the same author.
Thanks for another great DWW!
35 • #3 (by Dong on 2009-06-15 13:38:52 GMT from United States)
Wat u problem? U have stick in u waggo waggo?
Great review. Another outstanding week on DW.
36 • @27 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-15 13:40:01 GMT from France)
Even if that were true, you would probably have burnt more energy and money by leaving the computer switched on than by replacing the hard drive with a bonus of having a faster, bigger, more energy efficient new hard drive. And you could probably replace your disk from 2001 (probably less than 1Gb anyway) with a bigger USB key or a SSD drive and save even more.
37 • #28 Corneliu (by Xtyn on 2009-06-15 13:42:27 GMT from Romania)
So I take it that you are an average Joe.
You take it however you want. :)
I'd rather listen to what an expert has to say about Ubuntu and Fedora.
I'd rather use my own brain but that's just me.
38 • Re: 27 and sidux (by Sertse on 2009-06-15 13:43:34 GMT from Australia)
See http://sidux.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-16645.html particular slam's post.
It is more of an upstream change which has effected sidux, which sidux is acting to resolve.
39 • F11 KDE4.2.2 ??? (by Thor on 2009-06-15 13:45:48 GMT from United States)
Fedora's KDE4 is stale. 4.2.4 has been released 6 days before but never made it? OTH they cared to add beta apps.
The major distros for high-end aesthetically pleasing KDE4 systems atm seems to be Mandriva, SuSe and Fedora.>>
Yes it seems to be. Kubuntu is. :)
To be honest KDE4 is pretty much KDE. I don't see any distro can add much to it other than excellent themes. And most of these are installable from KDE.org regardless of your distro.
40 • Re:31 that is (by Sertse on 2009-06-15 13:47:12 GMT from Australia)
Sorry to the above, response to 31 that is.
We also should be reminded that sidux is a rolling release distro, so issues arise as updated packages come, and sidux deals with them as they come. There is less opportunity compared to periodic release distros, to prepare for all issues beforehand.
41 • Fedora Review (by davemc on 2009-06-15 13:50:56 GMT from United States)
I noticed that this review was done by Simon, rather than by Chris, and it shows in the technical accuracy. Its not a bad review, per se, but Simon put a negative spin on it by inserting FUD that is mostly not correct.
1. First and foremost, Desktop Effects can only (currently) be enabled by default on systems that have 3D functionality - Nvidia/ATi, and some few Intel chipsets. Fedora takes a very strong stance on FOSS and wont load proprietary kernel blobs by default, so why in the world would they enable Effects by default?
2. Please check your facts about Presto technology. I am not aware of any system update utility that allows for clean binary delta upgrades. This feature is possible in source based distro's (Gentoo, etc.), but I have never heard of this in any of the binary based distro's.
I wont quibble about "look n feel", icons, etc., but I think if thats the biggest criticism one has about a Distro, then I think you can call it a very strong release! Fedora has come a VERY long ways in usability and "noob" friendliness and this is their strongest release to date, IMO. F10 was also fantastic -- I used it for many moons and only cracked a Terminal when I felt bored and wanted to try out some new things -- but for daily use, the provided GUI apps were more than sufficient for average desktop use.
Lets face it, Linux has hit its stride now. The last frontier is the apps, not the distro's.
42 • RE: #3,#10 (by octathlon on 2009-06-15 13:53:10 GMT from United States)
"Could an English native speaker proofread the review next time?"
Unless you are specifically requesting someone from England to proofread the review, the correct English usage here is: "Could a native English-speaker proofread the review next time?"
43 • Issues with the issues with the issue (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-15 14:02:30 GMT from United States)
"Could an English native speaker proof-read the review next time? I stopped reading at this point."
Oh, shut up. Proofread it yourself if you're going to whine and moan.
The review was alright, but not because of any reason the author could have avoided. I just would have liked to see more computers used in the test, especially a low-end system. Something, you know, not dual core. Maybe 1 GB of RAM, just to hit, if not the lowest common denominator, at least the medium common denominator.
I can't say I came to the same conclusion as the reviewer, but I suppose they're more interested than me. I'm not a distro-hopper anymore. I tried Fedora 11 just to see what's coming down the tube. I appreciate the program and understands its use, I just prefer to test it, not to actively use it, which makes me less forgiving when there's a bug or an error.
A good issue.
44 • #41 delta RPM's (by Xtyn on 2009-06-15 14:03:39 GMT from Romania)
Please check your facts about Presto technology. I am not aware of any system update utility that allows for clean binary delta upgrades. This feature is possible in source based distro's (Gentoo, etc.), but I have never heard of this in any of the binary based distro's.
openSUSE has had this feature for years (delta RPM's) and it's default.
45 • delta RPM's again (by Xtyn on 2009-06-15 14:11:35 GMT from Romania)
After a google search, I found out that Mandriva has had this feature (delta RPM's) for many years.
Oh, well, if I never used Mandriva, how could I have known?
46 • @30 (by Sean on 2009-06-15 14:12:14 GMT from United States)
There is nothing about spelling in post 22.
47 • re 37 (by corneliu on 2009-06-15 14:17:05 GMT from Canada)
> "I'd rather use my own brain but that's just me."
Yes. I use my own brain too. In addition I listen to experts.
48 • Ref#41 Space is not Last Frontier (by Anonymous on 2009-06-15 14:35:52 GMT from United States)
"The last frontier is the apps, not the distro's."
Very true indeed.
Regarding Ext4 boot. Ubuntu had no problem for me, in installing Ext4 only partition, and booting from it. I think Fedora would also be able to do the same without the hack of using "/boot" to Ext3
49 • Font change after post 39? (by Muhammad Fahd Waseem on 2009-06-15 14:37:05 GMT from Germany)
Anybody noticed the changed font after post 39?
50 • Mint 7 Review (by Muhammad Fahd Waseem on 2009-06-15 14:41:39 GMT from Germany)
BTW, Ladislav, could we have a minimalistic install walkthrough like we had for SUSE, Ubuntu, etc. next issue?
51 • @50 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-15 15:13:37 GMT from United States)
1) Wouldn't that be the same thing as a minimal Ubuntu install?
2) Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of Mint?
52 • Mindbender installation. (by Pun on 2009-06-15 15:18:05 GMT from United States)
Fedora 11 install theory: Put /boot on part1-ext3. Put / on part2-ext4. BUT, then copy files back from sda3 to sda2 with a Ubuntu livecd so there can exist a single EXT3 for / & /boot.
53 • Fedora11 - KDE looks nice - Arch linux more updated... (by morgan on 2009-06-15 15:19:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have just tried out Fedora 11.
I always install Fedora comes out - it usually remains on my machine for no more than a few days - I install it to see what future technology is coming to the Linux desktop - I would never use Fedora as my main system
The default KDE4 theme on Fedora looks pretty professional. Importantly Firefox also looks nice...
My main system in now Arch Linux (arch is faster than all distros i have used except yoper and gentoo.). Fedora likes to believe it lives on the bleeding edge however many packages in Fedora 11 are behind Stable Arch Linux.
i.e : kde . Arch - 4.2.4 / Fedora 4.2.3 (after updates)
One thing I love about arch is you usually get updated packages (i.e gnome/KDE) the day of release - i.e when kde releases.
Just my 2 cents (or pence - im British...)
54 • Fedora 11 and multimedia (by Jeff on 2009-06-15 15:19:22 GMT from United States)
If you want to add codecs and better looking icons and fonts and java, and all that other good stuff that other distros have, google Easylife for Fedora. It makes adding all of this stuff a snap.
55 • Fedora Review (by piensa on 2009-06-15 15:22:35 GMT from United States)
A great review on Fedora.
RedHat is only interested in getting bugs resolver so they can sell a worthwhile commercial distro, so if you want to use Fedora expect a less attractive product with built in inconveniences.
56 • This is rumour control, here are the facts... (by Adam Williamson on 2009-06-15 15:27:08 GMT from Canada)
Wow, too many things to reply to, let's do it all in one post.
To the main article:
"The next disappointment for Fedora 11 is the desktop effects. I can understand that Fedora was hesitant to make desktop effects default as soon as other distributions did, but Fedora has still yet to make desktop effects enabled by default"
That would not make any sense for Fedora. It's well known that 95% of systems have either Intel, NVIDIA, or ATI graphics - the 'big three'. Out of the big three, F/OSS drivers only have really unproblematic 3D support for Intel. There is no F/OSS 3D support for NVIDIA, and no support for the r600 / r700 chips from ATI (well, it's coming, but it's not in F11). That's the two most recent, that power the Radeon HD 2xxx, Radeon HD 3xxx and Radeon HD 4xxx series. So out of the big three we have no F/OSS 3D support at all for one, and no support for the three most recent generations of another. Given that, it would be rather silly to enable so-called 'desktop effects' by default.
"In most up-to-date distributions, such as Ubuntu or SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop, you will see what seems like minor but important details such as resizing windows. In either of those distributions the mouse will stay in line with the window borders, as well as provide their users with more than just the ability to add wobbly windows and a desktop cube."
I'm not really sure what you mean here. Of course you can use all the features of compiz in Fedora, just install ccsm. The tool that lets you enable desktop effects isn't meant to be a full-featured compiz configuration tool, it's meant to be a tool to let you enable desktop effects.
The explanation of the ext4 issue is, I believe, wrong. It says:
"however installation via the live CD will want to create a single ext4 partition by default, rendering the system inoperable"
This is not correct. The live CD does not 'want to create a single ext4 partition by default'. By default it creates a /boot ext3 partition and a / ext4 partition, just as it should. The problem only comes if you specifically ask it to install to a single partition, which it will happily try to do (rather than giving you an error, which it really should have done). What we've found is there's quite a lot of people who manually try to install to a single partition, because they're distro-hoppers who keep a single spare partition for trying new distributions; we hadn't anticipated quite so many people getting caught by this one.
@18: "Because it's a testing platform, they don't give much attention to the average Joe, who just wants a replacement for windblows. Red Hat made it clear that in their opinion Linux is NOT ready for the desktop."
This is not remotely our opinion, nor have we said it anywhere. There's a somewhat famous quote from our CEO about there not being any profit in the Linux desktop, which is just stating a simple fact - no-one's making any money selling Linux as a desktop operating system. Red Hat isn't, Mandriva isn't, Novell isn't, Canonical isn't. That doesn't mean Linux isn't 'ready for the desktop'. If RH thought that, we wouldn't be sponsoring Fedora development and paying dozens of people to work on writing code for things that are only useful on desktops.
@39: "Fedora's KDE4 is stale. 4.2.4 has been released 6 days before but never made it? OTH they cared to add beta apps."
4.2.2 was the latest version when we hit the release freeze for F11, and you can't just break the freeze to let an entire new version of a major desktop (several dozen packages) through. However, you may have heard of the wonderful concept of 'updates', through which KDE in Fedora 11 will certainly be kept up to the latest release.
@41, point 2: I think SUSE uses deltarpms for updates, but I don't know of any other major distro that does. I agree it was a bit odd to wonder why we'd list that as a major feature just because someone else was already doing it, though - what's the difference? It's a major new feature in Fedora, I don't see why it's relevant whether another distro already did it or not.
@45: er, no, it doesn't. MDV doesn't generate update deltaRPMs. It was discussed many times and in the end, so far, it was always decided that implementing it was more of a pain that it was worth.
@48: Ubuntu patched grub to support ext4. Fedora could do the same, but the patches are rather invasive and were only proposed late in the F11 cycle, so it was decided not to include them for safety reasons.
57 • Wireless & Stuff (by Rat on 2009-06-15 15:30:48 GMT from United States)
Overall very nice review. But, what about wireless? Did you test it? Did it work? How can you leave that out of a review?
How did you install Flash? You said:
"It's nice that Adobe makes available an RPM file that you can use to add the Adobe software repository which provides you with the ability to install the Flash Player and also provides updates to Flash Player and any other Adobe software you've installed using its repositories".
I don't understand what you are saying here. Does Adobe provide a link to a software repository that somehow updates your software automatically?
58 • Fedora 11 Review (by GreenWolf70 on 2009-06-15 15:36:49 GMT from United States)
Address the Issues, please.
This review totally ignored the biggest problem with Fedora 10; network connectivity issues. Are they fixed? Nothing worse than a distro in which you can not connect to the outside world.
Also, did you need to go outside the GUI for anything? In a good desktop distro everything needs to be addressable from the GUI, was it?
...and please, please, please, why continue to complain in reviews about the Look and Feel when 98% of us change the L&F as soon as we install? If we were stuck with this L&F (like in MS windows) then you have a valid argument, but not in Linux. So cut it out please. It only shows how shallow your review was.
59 • Thinkpad X60 and 4gb ram? (by x60 on 2009-06-15 15:54:07 GMT from United Kingdom)
Simon Hildenbrand wrote:
"I installed Fedora 11 on my laptop which is an IBM x60 with 2.0 GHz Core 2 Duo processor, 4 GB memory"
Can you get 4gb into an x60? I thought you needed a x61 with the Santa Rosa or whatever chipset.
My x60 only shows 3gb of the 4 and it's really annoying ;-)
60 • L & F (by Tom on 2009-06-15 15:59:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
I often enjoy trying to have a look but have seldom got to the feel stage. It's good to have a quick note about this as it's quite often what a noob will judge the distro on, and will often assume that sums up the whole of gnu/linux. A quick note about it is a must surely?
If you do need a native english speaker to proof-read stuff then please make sure they are not from around where i live. The vocabulary, spelling and grammar even in the readers comment's section far exceed the standards found in any english housing estate or even worse bussiness letters ;) (there should be only 3 s's in business btw wesnoth fans). Here in Cambridge we have 3 distinct versions of english which are all wrong; 1) posh students, 2) housing estate kids, 3) native fenlanders from the villages. Admittedly it's debatable whether it's really english that the last 2 groups speak and in the case of 2 it's debatable whether it could even qualify as speech. Mention grammar round here and all you'll get is blank looks and perhaps someone saying "She died last spring". Language is constantly evolving (or devolving on housing estates) lets just roll with it ;)
61 • oops Fedora! (by Tom on 2009-06-15 16:14:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
Lol, i meant to say that i found their release notes much more professional looking than most distros i've checked out (not many, granted). The known bugs section is huge and very well organised although the size seems to be more due to being pedantic and also separating out issues that could be bunched up in headings like "graphics cards". The layout seems quite different too. I found this interesting
Which i interpreted as saying that the "kernel-PAE.i686 rpm" module could address 64Gb ram but has few or no other advantages so it was dropped for sleekness in favour of a module that is more likely to be useful on more machines but has the drawback that it can only address 4Gb ram. Since switching to linux i've found that i've not needed the ram upgrade i would have expected to need a long time ago with microsquish - i'm still happily whizzing along with 'only' 2Gb. Interesting to see that all those people that complain about not being able to use all their 8Gb sticks could probably just add an appropriate module and then sit around with a 3/4 empty ram instead of their currently half empty ram with 2 unused sticks jic heheheh
62 • #58 - Good points (by Miq on 2009-06-15 16:15:22 GMT from Sweden)
I think GreenWolf70 raises valid points. If Fedora11 was known beforehand to have connection issues that would have been an excellent point to address. Also, I agree that it is annoying to have to go outside the GUI tools (and having to do so is a huge disadvantage when absorbing defectors from Windows).
63 • fedora 11 (by lucky13 on 2009-06-15 16:29:46 GMT from United States)
It would've been nice if the review mentioned as much about the quirky install requirements of the live CDs (in stark contrast to net install) with the first cut that required separate ext3 /boot and ext4 / (pointed out by #11) as about how disappointed the reviewer was by default aesthetics. Users can tweak interfaces to suit their own tastes; it's more difficult getting around setting up a system of your own choosing if an installation (or live) CD forces you into a partitioning and filesystem scheme you don't want.
Why do these reviews focus so much on aesthetics and wobbly freaking windows? If you want that kind of drain on your CPU, just enable it yourself. Why should distros come with the most possible sh*t set up to run all at once instead of reasonable or even conservative settings? Just to trump one another when it comes to eye candy? Geez. Why give unfavorable reviews for that especially when tauting ext4 for netbook use when it's really designed for servers and storage apps?
Want a more objective review of both Gnome and KDE versions and why I refused to install either over what I was using on my Aspire One (Fedora 10 but have since installed Debian)? Not one word about aesthetics, but plenty about applications and peculiar live CD install requirements.
64 • "Geeko" (by L. B. on 2009-06-15 16:52:28 GMT from Israel)
But their symbol is not a gecko, it's clearly a chamelion!1
65 • Fedora 12? (by BachelorSliTaZ on 2009-06-15 17:08:32 GMT from India)
Nice one.. But I see a typo, having the release of Fedora 12... Hope that is cleared soon.. :)
66 • non-free (by lightw8 on 2009-06-15 17:16:30 GMT from United States)
Fedora a great distro and a big contributor to the Linux community. However, for some of us lightweights (who I realize are the majority of DWW readers), Fedora has a couple issues. It has a tendency to sometimes use not-fully-ready software. It puts several barriers in the way of using non-free software. With regard to non-free software...
It's not clear that PackageKit is easy solution for lightweights. In the past, getting full MP3 functionality in K3b and Audacity involved enabling repositories and installing special MP3 software in addition to codecs. At one point, MP3-capable Audacity was actually a different version of the program than the version in Fedora's default repository.
Distros that truly emphasize FOSS deserve a prominent place in the Linux world. I have lots of respect Fedora and other distros that actively promote FOSS, but I personally don't use their software.
Hopefully, some reviewers will emphasize and describe more completely the barriers to using non-free software. Not that all reviews should have this focus, but I hope that some do.
Some distros enable non-free to be fully functional with just a couple clicks. For those who are accustomed to software that just works, the couple-clicks solution is the preferred solution.
67 • non-free oops (by lightw8 on 2009-06-15 17:18:25 GMT from United States)
I mean lightweights are NOT the majority of DWW readers. I realize that my view non-free is a minority opinion here.
68 • Proof Reading and Fedora (by Sam on 2009-06-15 17:21:13 GMT from United States)
While I appreciated the Fedora 11 review, some proof reading would have been helpful. Pretty blatant spelling errors (boarders versus borders) and some circuitous sentence structure.
So the distribution is worth skipping because it doesn't have the GUI bells and whistle of Ubuntu or Sabayon? Really? Since when did Linux land become obsessed with flash rather than function? For some of us, the fact a distro 'just works' with our hardware and meets our software needs is pretty much the one and only item on our checklist. Besides, installing KDE4 from the repos and downloading some new Gnome wallpaper, icon sets, and themes from gnome-art isn't that difficult, is it?
Oh, and the SuSE "create your own Geeko" site fails to save? Really? SuSE putting together a pretty website that fails on functionality? I'd never have thought that. But then again, I use Fedora.
69 • Ref #56 (Presto) (by dialup on 2009-06-15 17:28:41 GMT from United States)
Presto is *the* F11 feature for me - and I would think for others who live where broadband isn't available. ( I'd gladly buy updates/FedoraUnity DVDs, but their availability from vendors is spotty (at best). )
Incidentally ... I am aware that some fault Fedora for the lack of an all-in-one configuration application. If Fedora does decide to go that route, I hope you will retain the system-config applets as an option.
70 • No subject (by rk on 2009-06-15 17:36:22 GMT from Ukraine)
"Moving to ext4 is a big update for Fedora and will soon be for all Linux distributions."
Huh? It was available on recent Arch Linux install CD release few months ago, and I'm sure there are other distros that had it before Fedora.
71 • Fedora 11 KDE LiveCD boots to text mode on MPC Clientpro w Intel 945 (by Gnobuddy on 2009-06-15 17:41:58 GMT from United States)
I tried the KDE version of the Fedora 11 LiveCD on an MPC Clientpro with completely conventional hardware - Intel board, Intel 945 graphics, Core 2 Duo CPU. After a promising start and refined graphical boot, it dumps the machine into a plain old text shell with the error message "mount: /dev/loop2: can't read superblock. Bug in initramfs /init detected. Dropping to a shell. Good luck!"
Most Live CD distributions I've tried have absolutely no trouble with this machine. That includes Puppy, Kubuntu 8.04 and 8.10, and a few others. It would seem Fedora 11 is still buggy.
72 • Teenpup (by Anonymous on 2009-06-15 18:03:20 GMT from United States)
Is there a bug in the HD installer for Teenpup? It came up with a file missing on the iso when I installed. I did get the new regular Puppy 4.2.1 to install. The machine (333mhz) had 96mb of memory and a ISA legacy soundblaster card in it. Works surprisingly well.
73 • @61 (by Adam Williamson on 2009-06-15 18:18:03 GMT from Canada)
"The known bugs section is huge and very well organised although the size seems to be more due to being pedantic and also separating out issues that could be bunched up in headings like "graphics cards"."
You have to be that pedantic in order to properly explain each issue, and how to address it. Shorthanding things just results in people being confused and you having to explain things in more detail over and over again, which is exactly what the common bugs page is intended to _avoid_ :)
The page is already split into sections. Combining separate issues into one big section with a general heading would be a bad idea - say you're affected by, oh, the issue on certain Macs with the intel driver, you'd have to read through a bunch of stuff about ATI and NVIDIA drivers before you'd find your own particular problem. How's that better? Or am I misreading your suggestion?
"I found this interesting
Which i interpreted as saying that the "kernel-PAE.i686 rpm" module could address 64Gb ram but has few or no other advantages so it was dropped for sleekness in favour of a module that is more likely to be useful on more machines but has the drawback that it can only address 4Gb ram."
No, actually, you've got it exactly the wrong way around. We *dropped* the kernel that can only address 4GB of RAM in *favour* of the kernel that can address up to 64GB. :)
74 • Fedora ate my lunch (by 1369ic on 2009-06-15 18:49:48 GMT from United States)
The Fedora 11 installer crapped the sheets during the partitioning and took my partition table with it. Idle curiosity turned into an evening with System Rescue CD. It's a standard first-generation centrino laptop, and I've never had that happen before. Back to Slack.
75 • Fedora (by Chris on 2009-06-15 18:59:27 GMT from United States)
I haven't been able to get a Fedora Live CD to boot since 8. I would love to try it out, but if it can't even do that while Ubuntu, OpenSUSE and Mandriva have 0 problems then I won't waste my time.
76 • wait a minute (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-15 19:01:19 GMT from United States)
"...no-one's making any money selling Linux as a desktop operating system"
Hey, now, hold judgement until you've asked iMagic. They sell a partially modified Ubuntu for $70 on their website.
I mean, numbers like that have to add up to something.
77 • wait a minute (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-15 19:01:23 GMT from United States)
"...no-one's making any money selling Linux as a desktop operating system"
Hey, now, hold judgement until you've asked iMagic OS. They sell a partially modified Ubuntu for $70 on their website.
I mean, numbers like that have to add up to something.
78 • 73, clarifications (by Tom on 2009-06-15 19:13:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thanks Adam :)
I do like the way Fedora have their known bugs page although i've not needed to use it yet, which is good obviously :) 64Gb addressable ram!! I still have trouble trying to peak mine up to 1.5Gb, even with Ubuntu ;)
79 • PAE kernel in Fedora 11 (by corneliu on 2009-06-15 19:44:55 GMT from Canada)
Since I have only 2GB of RAM I don't need a pae enabled kernel. It would've been nice if Fedora detected my RAM and installed a non-pae kernel because pae kernels tend to be a little bit slower than non-pae kernels.
80 • @79 (by Adam Williamson on 2009-06-15 20:03:22 GMT from Canada)
"Since I have only 2GB of RAM I don't need a pae enabled kernel. It would've been nice if Fedora detected my RAM and installed a non-pae kernel because pae kernels tend to be a little bit slower than non-pae kernels."
No-one ever seems to have produced any actual tests to back that assertion.
81 • post # 60 (by Jerry B. on 2009-06-15 20:08:41 GMT from United States)
Consulting my OED, Tom.
By Jove you're correct!
Pip pip, old chap; it's off for bangers and mash now.
82 • re 80 - PAE (by corneliu on 2009-06-15 20:37:14 GMT from Canada)
Adam, you are everywhere.
Well, I haven't done any benchmark tests and truth be told, my dual core seems to be pretty fast, maybe too fast to notice any difference but according to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension "many common Linux distributions come with a PAE-enabled kernel as the distribution-specific default even though it does add overhead, it also adds the NX bit"
There must be some truth in this I guess.
On a side note: How about those Mets? What happened in game 1 of the subway series? What happened in game 3?
83 • Fedora 11 (by RollMeAway on 2009-06-15 20:56:04 GMT from United States)
Gave up on the Live CDs and installed using the DVD.
I installed to a single ext3 partiton. Maybe after the file tools and grub work with ext4 it might be useful.
I recall a few years ago reiserfs was being pushed as the only way to go.
Surprisingly, Fedora doesn't even recognize reiserfs partitions on my drives, and gives me a red warning popup that my drives are about to fail! No other distros think so.
I installed to an old machine with 512 MB ram. Fedora notes the following requirements in the release notes:
#Minimum RAM for graphical: 192MiB
#Recommended RAM for graphical: 256MiB
Clearly this should be updated! I doubt Gnome or KDE4 would even install, and without a lot of swap, certainly would not run.
Gnome is the default for the DVD install. No other choice is given.
I wonder what else is in the 3.6GB on the DVD?
Gnome is about as generic as I have seen.
Immediate error messages from selinux, so I disabled it first thing. I find it totally unwanted on a desktop.
There is no gui method to get autologin, which I also find irritating.
You must enter the root password to logout and shutdown. Is there any place this is desirable?
At a company? Time to go home, call the IT dept. to come shutdown my computer?
Tried using Packagekit to remove locales I have no use for. It wanted to remove 1108 pkgs.
Installed YumEx. Used it to do the same, no problems.
Thankfully we have many other distro choices
84 • Eden-Live Broken Link (by Solo on 2009-06-15 21:24:33 GMT from United States)
The link to Eden-Live comes up with an invalid certificate error:
"Secure Connection Failed
www.ihteam.net uses an invalid security certificate.
The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is not trusted.
The certificate is only valid for ihteam.net
(Error code: sec_error_untrusted_issuer)"
85 • F11 (by Paul B on 2009-06-15 21:29:42 GMT from United States)
My, my, my, my, my. I have not seen so much whining since somebody advocated Ubuntu. Is Fedora the new public enemy No. 1?
Granted, it takes a little care and possibly some grief to set it up. But if I can do it, most anybody (who is a Linux freak) can do it. It is not meant for the faint of heart. For those who can't handle the speed bumps, try Mint or PCLinuxOS. Fedora is leading edge. Take it that way.
There, now I feel better.
86 • LiveCD Fedora success with single EXT3 partition (by Pun on 2009-06-15 22:50:21 GMT from United States)
Here is how I created a Fedora 11 booting off single EXT3 partition (with livecd):
1. /boot = ext3 make big enough for whole OS (5+G)
2. / = ext4 on a spare partition.
3. Copy everything over to ext3 partition with livecd.
4. Adjust fstab and grub.conf to where everything is pointing to proper location (using /dev/??? not UUID).
5. Create empty file in / which resets SELINUX to avoid some error about no longer having shell:
6. It works at this point, and then I discover very ancient bug where encrypted /tmp and swap returns "device not found error". Following Fedora 5 era instructions, the same functions work flawlessly on Ubuntu and Debian (not Arch). F-11 doesn't want to create these devices on startup and this a major regression in the realm of security, IMO.
87 • No subject (by Butch42 on 2009-06-15 23:19:29 GMT from United States)
Fedora doesn't see my CD drive even though it installed from it. Those not talented enough to work for Mark, have to start somewhere.
88 • #87 (by Joy on 2009-06-15 23:54:57 GMT from United States)
That's an old one, Butch42. Anaconda has always had eyes that hal or whatever Fedora uses now hasn't had for some hardware.
89 • Fedoratrauma (by DeniZen on 2009-06-16 00:28:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
Fedora is this weeks moan eh?!
Yes, I had one issue with it too (just with resume) - but that was probably down to _my_ hardware.
Otherwise, it's pretty darned OK - so what's so wrong with it?
Well .. too hard to install apparently.
Takes some thought even .. whatever next ..
Jeepers! - Fedora is _not_ Ubuntu, nor Mint nor PCLOS, nor Mandriva, nor is it meant to be.
Think of it as something in the vein of (but nothing actually like) Debian Unstable with RPM package management.. maybe.
If you cant work out how to install it, or take 10 minutes to find out / work it out , then hey move on - find another, easier Distro. It's probably just not the right choice for you, but there are others that maybe are. All good.
But really - don't rubbish it just because it stretched you a bit and was not 'instant'. Thats actually how we learn stuff, usually- yes?!
Now, no doubt someone who has publicly made a fat-fingered, ham fisted, pigs ear of trying to hammer Fedora sideways onto their box will call me patronising for that comment.
Well, fine! I feel better ;) even if I should know better ;)
90 • @ 83 (by DeniZen on 2009-06-16 00:47:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
If I understand you correctly -
I cannot imagine what exactly you have done, but there is clearly something very messed up there.
There is no need to enter root passwords to log out or shut down in Fedora.
I can assure you. I have been using it for weeks.
You have read the reviews/ Forums/ Wiki ?
Such a thing would get mentioned - for sure - would it not?
But asides, how would you possibly need a root password to log yourself of your own user account?
Yes, thankfully you (and we all) have other more suitable choices.
Probably the other two 'it just works' Distros - that have had a good kicking in the previous two weeks comments section - come to mind eh?
91 • Old Hardware (by Anonymous on 2009-06-16 01:13:54 GMT from United States)
What Distribution is made for Intel 80386 processor and a few MegaBytes of RAM?
Does everything have to be Giga this and Giga that?
500Mhz is not old hardware, just yesterdays...
I was running Debian Lenny on a 333Mhz Pentium II.
Does anything support real old hardware?
92 • @ 81 Jerry B_oppins (by DeniZen on 2009-06-16 01:16:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Well I guess that was an audition by Jerry B for this fabled post of "Native 'English' Speaker"?
Very good! ;)
A jolly better job than I'd bally well make of it , I'll be jiggered. What ho! Made a bit of a bish of it - eh what Mary Poppins.
Do have some chutney Vicar.
Oh dear, where's my brolly? - looks like rain.
But then, I'm out of the running - hailing as I do from the country 'next door', with the sheep and the mountains .. and strange language.
93 • @ 91 (by DeniZen on 2009-06-16 01:26:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
yes. Debian. Slackware.
No X though.
But you could set up a CLI system, and browse in text mode.
or, you could search for 'Distributions for old hardware'.
Deli Linux might come up.
Someone here will have some good suggestions.
It is understandable that developers develop for 'today', but while holding a hand out for 'yesterday' too.
In fact, many Linux Distros will run fine on 'yesterdays'.
Most of my Boxen are rather 'yesterday'.
But, last Millennia?!
Thats a bit more specialist ;)
But they exist.
94 • #91 (by Dog on 2009-06-16 01:50:06 GMT from United States)
Puppy. DSL used to but it's dead.
95 • Apology to Fedora (by RollMeAway on 2009-06-16 01:57:22 GMT from United States)
Tonight, I don't have to enter root password to logout/shutdown.
Must have had something running in the background as root, and forgot about it?
Not able to duplicate the case tonight.
My apology if I mislead anyone.
Just a loose nut on the keyboard, HA!
96 • @91 Old hardware. (by RollMeAway on 2009-06-16 02:16:28 GMT from United States)
Slitaz goes back to i486 and 16 MB ram. Have a look at "Supported Hardware":
97 • #91 - Old Hardware (by Caitlyn on 2009-06-16 02:26:13 GMT from United States)
With at least 32MB of RAM and a classic (60MHz) Pentium processor you can go with Vector Linux Light. Puppy, AFAIK, won't go that low.
98 • New LXDE Fedora Remix Spin available (by Antonio on 2009-06-16 02:36:12 GMT from United States)
For all users that like Fedora but Gnome/KDE/ and even XFCE is too heavy for your machines. You can try out a remix Spin with LXDE available here:
I will try to download tomorrow, have dialup and am at home. Thanks to Rahul Sundaram and all Feodra Collaborators working for users to make Fedora a better distro. Way to go Adam :) You are also doing an excellent job. Hope most users give it a fair shot. I am looking forward to it on an old old old machine, I hope I can give it some life :)
99 • @97 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-16 02:51:07 GMT from United States)
At that point you're just better off staying in the terminal, though. I can't imagine any X install working very well, but if you can manage the CLI apps then I suppose that would work.
K. Mandala's blog is good reading for CLI apps; I reccommend it.
100 • @83 (by Adam Williamson on 2009-06-16 02:54:46 GMT from Canada)
"Surprisingly, Fedora doesn't even recognize reiserfs partitions on my drives, and gives me a red warning popup that my drives are about to fail! No other distros think so."
That message doesn't actually have anything to do with the filesystem on the drive (it comes from a lower level). The reason no other distro does this is because no other distro has this feature, yet. :) It's a very new thing that's currently only in F11. Basically it's just a little applet that monitors the SMART information for the disks in your system and yells if one of them goes into a 'pre-fail' state. It's fairly new code so it does throw some false positives at present, but that's by no means a foregone conclusion - it could be a genuine issue with your drive. Try using smartctl at a console to give you a more detailed indication of exactly what SMART attribute has gone into a pre-fail state. If you're not sure about this stuff, email me and I'll give you some more details.
101 • rusty/dusty/crusty hardware (by hab on 2009-06-16 03:30:26 GMT from Canada)
An observation from someone who has played much with old hardware, is that the amount of ram is probably much more significant than the actual processor speed.
Consider that you can saturate a T1 line with a 486. I learned the old hardware triad of processor/ram/video subsystem as being the primary factors in determining system speed. Access to storage subsystems was always way slower than the interaction between the other three.
Many years ago i had an overclocked dx4 486 vip board that i managed to load up with 128m of ram and it fairly screamed. Especially with doom. The linux version no less. Even x worked. Newer amd and intel cpus work pretty much the same way in terms of ram. More is better.
I have seen many machines go from being slugs on low memory to very quick indeed by the simple expedient of installing more ram!
102 • FREEBSD (re 24) (by silent on 2009-06-16 05:14:26 GMT from Hungary)
"I was just preparing an updated version of the custom XFCE iso, if all goes well it will get uploaded later on tonight"
Could you give a link please? Are you going to create an image with only LXDE by any chance?
103 • #99: Not so. X works fine (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-06-16 05:33:30 GMT from United States)
Actually except for the multimedia apps and Opera everything would work just fine, including the lightweight X apps included (SIAG Office, HV3 and Dillo browsers, flphoto, Adie text editor, Bluefish, etc...) I still have an 11 year old Toshiba Libretto (smaller than today's netbooks) with a Pentium MMX 233MHz processor and 64MB of RAM. Vector Linux Light 6.0 runs brilliantly on that machine.
I had an old Liberty mini-desktop (what we'd call a nettop today) with a Pentium 133MHz processor and 32MB of RAM. It finally died last year. Believe it or not it was running Ubuntu (minimal install) with X, a PekWM window manager, fbpanel, AbiWord, Gnumeric, Dillo, and so on. All worked just fine. Yes, I used apt-get at the command line to install packages. Synaptic wouldn't run in such a small amount of memory. Lightweight apps were fine, though.
32MB and a Pentium processor is about the minimum for X but it will run in that. Apps will be slow to start but they will work so long as you stick with lightweight ones. Vector Linux Light has a big footprint (~1.8GB without the development packages) but that can be slimmed down after install. I haven't found anything faster on old hardware. I tried Deli Linux which wasn't bad but it wasn't faster, even with old apps. Ditto Damn Small Linux.
104 • Geeko does not save??? (by Aakhunaten on 2009-06-16 06:39:05 GMT from India)
Well, it does for me and I used opera on openSUSE. Hmmmm
105 • @92 Denizen (uses Zenwalk I presume) (by Jerry B. on 2009-06-16 10:16:05 GMT from United States)
Whoa, and "..from United Kingdom."
I relent and withdraw myself from consideration.
Time to wheel on over to the 'hood and see 'bout my main squeeze.
106 • @91 (by Tom on 2009-06-16 10:34:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
SliTaz is most likely to work. There are others, somewhere i read about "Tom'sDistro" (not mine) that can be installed from floppies so i'm guessing that's pretty tiny but i'm not sure it's still active. Tiny doesn't always mean old hardware as often it's more about getting phenomenal speeds out of top end machines, and in TinyCore's case it's also about minimal upkeep once it's setup.
Caitlyn's point about trying out a few slackware distros is good; Vector, Wolvix (especially Cub or the 1.1.0's). Wolvix seems to be one of those distros that 'just works' (really well tho) so some people seem to hate it, some seem to think it's not proper linux and certainly there doesn't seem to be much worth talking about because all we can talk about is what goes wrong and how to deal with it. Even the dev's seem to want to keep it quiet and hidden - doubtless i'll get an email slapping my wrist for having mentioned Wolvix in public. I have become a fanboy about this distro because it works well on machines that others don't and seems to need a lot less tweaking. I must apologise for mentioning this distro twice in one week! There are other slackware based distro's, perhaps even slackware itself although i still get the impression its 'a bit techie' by design and i don't think that's a bad thing when there are so many others pandering to the needs of noobs with bloated offerings such as my firm favourite ubuntu.
Fedora is still in the number one slot for the last 7 days which is great to see. Ideally i would like to see the top 8 slots being occupied by the 'top' distro of each different family rather than just being stuffed full of ubuntu/debian distro's. Some people can't handle a lack of uniformity but i feel that microsquish has already shown that to be an unfavourable long-term route. There isn't just one type of user, one set of hardware and one reason for using a computer - the whole point was to create machine's with a greater diversity of function than the Turing machine to cater for a greater diversity of requirements. Given that RedHat dominates the server's market it's good to see their desktop offering has reached 4th place in the charts for the last 6 months and also seeing people seriously discussing Fedora when previously it has been kept so quiet. It's also becoming more clear that there is some separation between the community led Fedora and the commercial RedHat which gives both a better chance of surviving in the longer term as each competes with the other in some ways but also can offer each other support (not talking about tech support here) and help each other develop. Diversity, greater democracy and fair market competition breeds success and innovation.
Looking at the varieties of wildlife we can see that 4 billion years of life on this planet has generated a huge diversity of different flora and fauna for good reasons - not just one life-form fr a single purpose. Think of the simple game "Paper, scissors, rock" which one of those 3 is always the winner?
Good luck all, regards and happy hunting to all from
107 • Released last week (by Richard on 2009-06-16 10:44:08 GMT from United Kingdom)
Under the 'Released Last Week' section it says Fedora 12, I think that is meant to be Fedora 11 :-P
108 • @103: X on a 386 with 14MB... (by AliasMarlowe on 2009-06-16 11:50:26 GMT from United States)
"32MB and a Pentium processor is about the minimum for X but it will run in that."
In the early-mid-1990s, I had a Toshibas T5200 alleged-laptop with a 16MHz 386 plus 387 which was maxed out with 14MB RAM and a humungous 100MB disk. It was just fine with XFree86, and functioned smoothly with NFS and a few other services active. I used to run octave and gnuplot as well as browse news etc. with the thing.
109 • #106 Slackware based distros (by Xtyn on 2009-06-16 11:51:45 GMT from Romania)
"Wolvix seems to be one of those distros that 'just works' (really well tho) so some people seem to hate it"
I'm sick of hearing about Wolvix because you and Caitlyn always bring it up but nothing really happens, the latest stable release is from 2007, almost 2 years ago. Probably you want all of us to try the bloody beta. We already know you'r a Wolvix zealot.
I have no idea why would anyone choose Wolvix insead of Vector. I found Vector to be much better, faster. On my hardware Wolvix was slow, the funny part is that when I tried a movie I got a blue screen. I think I know what the problem was (wrong xorg settings) but I didn't want to waste my time on it. Oh, well, back to Debian, which actually works as it should and is faster than Wolvix.
Another nice Slackware based distro is Zenwalk but it's more of a middleweight than a lightweight.
Well, I think it's obvious that I prefer Debian based distros although it wasn't always like this. I've used RPM based distros for years before switching.
110 • #109 (by Rat on 2009-06-16 12:18:59 GMT from United States)
I tried the Wolvix 2nd beta. It worked better than anything else on my system. This is rather shocking for a beta release.
111 • @ 105, and golden oldies (by DeniZen on 2009-06-16 12:47:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
Nah, I'm definitely exempt also, I may be from UK, but I'm not from England, but rather from Wales - 'next door'. And we speak very funny stuff here indeed...
You would stand a better chance ;)
No, there is no 'Zenwalk' association to the 'DeniZen' handle.
I have liked it, whenever I have tried it out .. but.
Yip i remember running Redhat 4.x? on a P133 and 16mb?, way way back.
With the old stylee XFree86 and FVWM DE.
It ran fine, well .. as I recall it did.
I liked it better than errr... OS/2 Warp ... ;)
112 • @103 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-16 13:07:06 GMT from United States)
I think my definition of "working well" is a bit subjective. I suppose it would work, but it would be too slow for me. I'd have to go without X, or at least use a very light WM like Awesome or Ratpoison.
113 • @ 109 (by Tom on 2009-06-16 13:07:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
I realise that a probable trivial fix, easily identified by you for a minor issue is enough to deter you and that you'll not have realised quite how much work you've put into getting a debian working on your machine, particularly for multimedia apps. I very much doubt that debian can boot faster into a gparted ready to use than wolvix hunter, let alone boot faster into a multimedia app from a LiveCd and i think that even you will find that running a game or other program in Wine is faster in something like Wolvix Hunter rather than a heavier, more bloated debian.
On my exceptionally average hardware, with full proper broadband available 24/7 and with my fairly low & average usage requirements (i manage to stick to native linux apps & games so i don't need Wine at all) i still find ubuntu to be the easiest of the distros i've tried, except the wolvix installer seems much easier and more helpful. However, i really don't see why an entire OS really needs to be upgraded when/if the original release works. Slackwares seem to tend to keep the core-functionality stable and fully working while only keeping the applications and packages much more 'bleeding edge' than many other distros, presumably kernel modules and stuff could be added/updated relatively easily too (rather than going for a full upgrade). While the Wolvix beta (although maybe not the Cub one, i've not really tried it) is already much more stable than certain commercial OS releases (and widely adopted by most computer users worldwide) i personally prefer sticking with the 1.1.0's of 2007, particularly on older hardware.
This same question of what distro to run on older hardware will keep getting the same answers, of course. Perhaps the answers should be written up as an faq to point people to. Yes i forgot Zenwalk and also forgot non-slackware ones like TinyMe and a plethora of others although i preferred Puppy and even better AntiX the Lysistrata release (the newer ones name is a little off-putting) - even more reason to have a decent faq & fair to point people to. Finding a distro that suits your personal tastes, requirements, hardware and situations is far from easy but at least after trying a few you are likely to find something fairly perfect, for you.
On my dad's boat downloading, upgrading and updating things is extremely difficult so ubuntu (my normal favourite) is possibly the worst distro for him but he is determined to only try ubuntu and to judge the whole range of linux distros solely on the results of trying the one least likely to fulfil most of his requirements. He sees that ubuntu is number one in most popularity charts and therefore thinks it's the only one worth trying, another reason i'm so glad to see my favourite getting so much air-time and reaching number 1 in a solidly respectable ratings chart.
Caitlyn mostly talks of Vector and other distros when someone asks about older hardware or machines with less resources although she did mention Wolvix once a few weeks ago - presumably mentioning something twice makes someone a fanboy, 3 times makes a zealot? Vector didn't work on my average machine (my 'main' one) nor either of my 2 old ones and i didn't try it at work. I'm happy to accept that i didn't put anything like enough work into getting it working, again probably a trivial issue and hope to try it again at some point, one day, maybe - not a top priority but not something i'm opposed to.
I have a feeling that Xtyn is also a dev and produces an excellent distro (but i can't remember which) that doesn't get adequate airtime, certainly deserving more as so many do while we, in here, focus on the top 2 or 3 distros or irrelevant political/religious debates but i don't think that 'attacking' someone for mentioning a different distro is really a good way forwards, especially without mentioning your favourite distro at the same time, or is that really debian?
Sorry, i guess i have too much time on my hands today
114 • re 102 - Updated FreeBSD images (by Manolis Kiagias on 2009-06-16 13:20:25 GMT from Greece)
The link to the updated FreeBSD image:
These "releases" are also announced in the freebsd-questions list and the FreeBSD forums (http://forums.freebsd.org)
115 • OpenMamba (by Rat on 2009-06-16 14:09:49 GMT from United States)
Some of you might find this interesting:
116 • #113 Tom (by Xtyn on 2009-06-16 14:38:30 GMT from Romania)
I usually use a 7 year old Dell C610, with a Pentium III at 1GHz and 128 RAM. I never got more ram because I expected it to die. :)
For what I usually do it's good enough, for heavy duty stuff I use my core duo laptop on which I have Ubuntu.
So I did a netinstall of Debian and I installed xorg, fluxbox and programs I need manually, it runs very well. In fact, it only uses 32 MB RAM, which is great. I'm dependent on Firefox (Iceweasel) which is pretty hungry.
When I said it was faster, I meant Debian fluxbox vs Wolvix Cub beta (with fluxbox).
Puppy is great too.
By the way, I'm not a developer nor am I in a computer domain. I am in a completely other domain but I just like Linux.
I'm not against "mentioning" other distros. Just did a search, last week, the name "wolvix" appears 14 times, two weeks ago 40 times, three weeks ago 23.
117 • reversion to Windows (by Anonymous on 2009-06-16 14:42:31 GMT from Canada)
Is there any data about the number of people who, after using linux for a year or more,revert to Windows?
I ask because at the moment I am unable to listen to the BBC's radio plays (using Mepis).
Prior to Mepis I was using Kubuntu 6.06 and was able, mostly, to listen to them.
This may just be a BBC thing, as about a year ago they made changes to their website which, IMHO, gave less info, were harder to use. With Kubuntu I was using Real Audio which had the great advantage of a "slider" so that one could listen to part and then restart in the middle at a later date.
Mplayer does not seem to do this.(when it was working)
Also the Kmail composer (in KDE 3.5.10)has no button to increase the size of the fonts for visually impaired recipients.
I went to the Mepis forum but A: the suggested solution was not as simple as a button on the composer window, and B: didnt work. Reinstalling Kmail also did not change anything.
There is a huge difference between getting zero and getting it occasionally (variable reward?)
My neighbours all use Windows and every few months I go t my next door neighbour and clean up his XP.
It has occured to me that if I can do that for him I should be able to use XP and set up a cron job that does a daily clean up for me.
The thought of giving up on FOSS keeps me, so far, from even using the XP that I have on a separate hard drive (in a drawer system); but the desire for BBC plays is getting to me!
118 • #117 (by Xtyn on 2009-06-16 15:00:45 GMT from Romania)
I think it wants "realplayer". You should try realplayer or helix player https://player.helixcommunity.org/
after that, dpkg -i /path/to/package.deb
119 • @117 (by Sean on 2009-06-16 15:51:00 GMT from United States)
Most linux users also use Windows. It's their reasons that are vastly different, we've found.
We conducted a personal poll on this subject at three universities and 168 businesses near the schools, as well as 1,512 "walk up" interviews basically on the street and in and around student-faculty frequented areas of in the three cities canvased.
Our findings did not surprise us, as we've all seen it first-hand; Microsoft products, the Windows line for PCs and hand helds, dominated, even amongst linux users. The Mac users, a surprising 17% (high compared to our anticipations), almost never used Windows but often either toyed with linux or were trying to find a distro that performed and appeared similar to their OS of choice, Mac.
Many linux users have to use Windows XP or Vista at work or in school. We found that 76% of linux users also had kept their Windows XP or Vista either on the same hard drive as linux, or had installed linux on a seperate hard drive to preserve thier XP or Vista OS.
That at first made us think that about 1/4th of linux users were solely using linux and considered it their primary operating system. Not true. 70 odd % of linux users jumped out of linux to return to either Microsoft products or Mac, often after struggling with linux or finding that as a working OS it was just lacking in comparison to XP, Vista or Macs. The query, "Do you think you'll try linux again in the future?" brought a "yes" from 58% of those saying they "had to use Windows."
We published the findings, complete with data and the questionaire, in three campus organs back in 2006 (the survey was done in the Winter/Spring quarters of 2004/2005).
There have been many such surveys; I think the best are the ones done over the population/computer users at large rather than in and around college campuses.
120 • Enough about distros (lol), the REAL cool thing this week (by sertse on 2009-06-16 16:02:44 GMT from Australia)
Opera Unite that is, http://unite.opera.com/
"Opera Unite is a unique technology that turns any computer or device running Opera into a Web server. In other words, your computer (running Opera Unite) is truly part of the fabric of the Web, rather than just interacting with it, and it’s something anyone can use. With Opera Unite, everyday non-technical users can serve and share content and services directly from their own computers in the form of intuitive applications."
tldr version; Every computer be now be a web server with just a download, for you to share your music, pictures, web sites, files other stuff with others.
121 • @120 re:Opera Unite (by Pearson on 2009-06-16 16:11:17 GMT from United States)
I can imagine heads spinning in many corporate IT departments. They tend to not like the idea of company secrets being accidentally shared in the internet!
122 • Over-head (by Jesse on 2009-06-16 17:43:59 GMT from Canada)
Someone posted further up about PAE kernels and the over-head they use, quoting the Wikipedia article. I'd like to point out that in coding circles, "over-head" doesn't always mean slower. It sometimes does, but that's not always the case.
Take, for example, sorting an array. A bubble sort is very simple to set up and requires virtual no resources. However, it's relatively slow on most data sets. A Borland Quick sort (that's what we called it in college anyway) takes a lot more resources (over-head) but is usually much faster.
Personally, I don't think you'll see a difference between running one kernel or the other. However, if you do experiment, I'd like to know the results.
123 • thanks for info (by Tom on 2009-06-16 18:22:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
@ 116 Xtyn
That was interesting about Debian, completely the opposite of my impressions so far which makes it worth a good try. I gather it is also fundamentally a stable distro but has a development branch that seems to be the branch that people mostly discuss. The stable one sounds well worth trying for my dad's boat, it could be the answer i've been looking for :)
As for the stats i wonder how this compares with mentions of other distros and how this compares with release dates for alpha/beta releases and article. Whats the percentage when compared against number of posts in that week? Also i've noticed that some people uses ambiguous words like "it" where we have to guess at what they are talking about but i've been 'told-off' for doing that some many times i try to use the correct noun. I have many other similarly annoying habits for much the same reason. Bare stats say almost nothing until there's some comparison with something to make them more meaningful. For example 12% of posts mention Wolvix would be significant but 40 mentions in 228 posts would be fairly meaningless. It was interesting to go back and find that someone posted comments late on a Sunday night which presumably no-one read as it seems comparatively fairly empty over the weekend anyway and some people login once a day or once a week and are unlikely to read posts before the Monday morning cutoff.
@ 115 Rat
Again interesting, i like your posts :)
@ 117 Anonymous and @ 119 Sean
Interesting stats. Again it'd be interesting to get a link to the greater detail in the reports. I imagine most linux users are forced to use Windows at work, school, internet cafes etc but perhaps are happy with that. I imagine that most linux users have a dual boot, usually with a Windows and are anyway likely to change OS's without fear. I'd also be interested in the percentage of Windows users that use other OS's and if they are happy with using different ones and the percentage of people that use both linux and Windows that consider themselves a linux-user compared to the percentage thinking of themselves as a Windows-users. I'm surprised about so many Mac-users trying out other distros, again this seems to suggest a certain level of fearlessness where Windows users seem slightly paranoid about trying anything different. Also a simple test of basic computer awareness, many Windows users seem unable to work out how to switch a machine on or off.
Given that hardware manufacturers try to force everyone into using Windows and given the masses willingness to let themselves be subjugated and locked in to a high level of dependence i think it's very brave of anyone to try making a stand against this and have a linux only system, especially if it's a purely OpenSource system with no non-free components!
I can't imagine that many people could do without a dual-boot or virtual machine with Windows installed. In my case though it's almost accidental. Most of my drives with Windows on as a dual-boot or alone seem to have died largely through mistreatment even after i got them 2nd or 3rd hand. Any drive i get with an existing Windows i'm loathe to reformat and wipe completely because of the agro of reinstalling and reinstating Windows. Almost drive that i have completely reformatted, usually through frustration and anti-Windows anger (that i think many feel when they first realise how easy and more productive their life could have been with the option of linux earlier) has ended up without any Windows and has out-lasting the others, coincidentally. Nowadays i'm usually a lot less stressed out because of daring to try linux. Not sure what's going on today though ;)
124 • re#123 (by hab on 2009-06-16 18:49:17 GMT from Canada)
I have not used windows in any meaningful fashion since v1. After using linux for 14 years i have found windows is way too flakey, malware prone and virus ridden to be of anything but casual use. That and it being a closed system to boot, which impedes maintenance and repair. Which, with windows, in my experience at least, is best described as an act of self flagellation!
I used to clean windows boxes and install freeware anti-virus and anti-malware tools for $125 per box. I just can't be bothered anymore. If somebody comes to me with a windows problem nowadays (a frequent event to say the least) i just tell them i know nothing about it and if they are at all obnoxious i give a quarter and tell them to call somebody who cares.
As to mac users being a little more inquisitive about linux, mac os x is really not all that far from linux. Or one of the bsds. At least philosophically.
I do multi boot systems and l of them are linux, bsd or some other freeware unixy like system. For me life's too short to piss around with any of the dreck that emanates from Redmond!
125 • Linux users, etc (by Sean on 2009-06-16 18:58:58 GMT from United States)
It is the anecdotal remarks by people in forums and areas such as this one at Distrowatch that skewed my view of linux use vs Windows; I had it in my head for years that linux was "taking over," etc.
Use has grown in various portions of the world, and will continue to, obviously.
What I want to see, though, is a better survey than ours; I want one that really does poll users world-wide and is in-depth enough to query about past use of the operating systems and current use.. so we can see what movement there is in whatever direction.
Also I'd like to see more stats on the very, very few who truly "never will use Windows again." Our poll had three questions aimed at that target, and they amalgamated to about 8%, and that is a poll response with an error expectation of +/- 10%. Not exactly scientific.
126 • @125 re:LInux users, etc. (by Pearson on 2009-06-16 19:46:40 GMT from United States)
I would imagine that it will be hard to quantify in a poll like you're suggesting. Are you asking about personal (home) use, work use, volunteer organization use, or some combination of the above?
If I had my preferences, I would not use Windows (I don't have the $$, and I just prefer Linux). However, I have to use Windows at work every day. Sometimes, because I'm at work, I use Windows for personal use. So, if I were to take your survey, I could not say "never will use Windows again" even though that only reflects my employer.
That's why I'm generally cautious about surveys and their results. The questions tend to be multiple choice and the answers may not always fall nicely into one of the predefined choices.
127 • @109 Tom (by john frey on 2009-06-16 20:00:34 GMT from Canada)
Yes Tomsrtbt, the original doas and rescue CD is still around, although it is really a Distro On A Floppy (doaf) and a rescue floppy. We used to use those back in the day before CD's and CD burners were available:) I don't know how much it is being developed these days but it would certainly work on your 486 with 16M ram.
128 • Fedora 11 experiments (by MRaugh on 2009-06-16 20:00:43 GMT from United States)
Some things I picked up doing another Fedora 11 install yesterday. This time the machine was a Dell Optiplex 745 (ATI FireGL 3100 video, 4GB RAM, dual screens).
Again the install from the DVD went quite smoothly. Networking worked just fine, which is probably no shock considering it was a desktop -- no wireless to deal with (but the wireless on my laptop worked out of the box).
Desktop effects, however, did not. Enabling them caused the left screen's image to expand over the right and rendered the desktop unusable. Clearly an issue with the OSS driver, but the current ATI binary driver wouldn't install on Fedora 11 citing the lack of XFree86. This seems to be a known issue already mentioned in the Fedora forums. So no 3D eye candy for now.
Thunderbird 3 seems reasonably stable and not all that different (at least superficially) from Tbird 2 except for one show-stopping problem: the Enigmail plug-in doesn't support it yet. Had to remove TB3 and install TB2 from a download from Mozilla in order to use Enigmail.
VMware workstation 6.5.2 installed but failed to compile its needed kernel modules. Being VMware it didn't leave anything resembling a useful log message to indicate why. Since VMware doesn't support Fedora I figured I'd leave it for a couple of weeks and wait for a workaround to surface. If I get another block of play time I may look into other virtualization options for F11. It still comes with XEN, after all.
As far as the look/feel thing goes, I can't say that I spent a lot of time artistically evaluating the icons. They appear in the expected places and communicate what they need to. I'm not a big fan of Gnome in general but it looks fine to me.
129 • @125 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-16 20:05:14 GMT from United States)
Just ask Google; they can tell you.
130 • Harsh in here & Fedora (by Shawn on 2009-06-16 20:48:20 GMT from United States)
I know from my own honesty I was disappointed at Fedora because I expected it to be something it wasn't - meaning it wasn't Ubuntu, nor was it openSUSE, and it certainly wasn't Mandriva. It seems like people are trying to equate what's in the article as opposed to how words were spelled regarding the "accuracy" or "honesty" of the review. I liked Fedora 7, 8, 10 and I like 11 so far. What we have to remember about Fedora is their philosophy of keeping the distribution entirely free while at the same time pioneering new technologies to be used not only in RHEL, but also in other distro's. Being disappointed about Fedora based on the assumption it wasn't as stable as Debian, the icon set wasn't as pretty as Sabayon's or having the functionality and ease-of-use with regard to system administration that parallel's openSUSE or Mandriva is nutty. Think of Fedora as only a test system that will introduce new technologies that also tries to be stable and usable for 13 months. This is how I see it from my own experiences and the fact the Fedora Project website states that much.
I've gotten this through my own head, finally, and maybe others can follow suit. Just be sure to check my grammar and spelling to either enhance or dispel my thoughts, though (sarcasm).
131 • no Windows ever again (by Tom on 2009-06-16 21:35:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
Lol, thanks folks, that's cheered me up :)
Survey are notoriously difficult to do well. Often a quoted error margin of +/- 4% looks totally unrealistic, i trust the +/- 10% more because it sounds more carefully considered rather than trying to be comforting.
Isn't there some famous maths technique for setting rabbit traps in a wood and tagging all the ones you catch and then setting the traps again the next night and counting all the ones that have been tagged already, apparently giving a very accurate number for the size of the rabbit population in the woods, ie none because rabbits don't live in woods ;) Not sure if any of that's true ;)
132 • #123 (by Rat on 2009-06-16 21:50:40 GMT from United States)
#123 Thanks. We all know you like Wolvix, There's no need for people to get all nasty and hurtful. Tom has feelings too you know.
(Oops I mentioned Wolvix again now he's going to go and count all the mentions again. Oops I just did it again. I'm just messin' with ya. Wolvix is great. Oops...)
133 • @91, old hardware (by Miq on 2009-06-16 22:36:39 GMT from Sweden)
AC, in addition to the tips above, you might want to try antiX. I tried it for the first time this week and I was very pleasantly surprised. It is sleek, fast and very low on hardware requirements, and still looks pretty, which is a definite bonus!
Not being an expert, I'd rank the old-hardware distro alternatives as
* one of the puppies
134 • Linux users, etc.. again.. (by Sean on 2009-06-16 22:45:28 GMT from United States)
Most of us gather our impressions of things as mundane as computer operating system use over time exposed to these things. Then we see the debates in forums and blogs and even at work in my case. Pretty soon we begin to align ourselves with those who seem to believe as we do. We might even report to a survey that we're linux users when we're only partially so or not at all, depending on how well our distro is running, etc.
In my case it has to do with being very disgusted with what we learned over time was Microsoft's fascist approach to competition in business (I still cannot for the life of me understand how they were allowed do as they have done and even to push all other operating systems out of various retail outlets.. there was a time when many were on the shelves as I recall).
Just talk to most people out there and Windows = computing; what a coup for Bill Gates, what a shame for Bill Gates and company.
That propelled us to take a vote at our company one day and over time it became apparent that we were in the majority wrt wanting Microsoft out of our academic and employment lives.
We've only very partially succeeded.. in our small company/school we have a total of 9 office computers now and 8 of them are linux, all with spare hard drives with either XP or Vista on them. Our goal is to have linux everywhere and to actively campaign against Windows use at our facilities.
The school at large is dependent on student's machines and those borrowed from another generous facility across town: all Windows dependent.
Also, too bad the OS itself is not the only issue.
135 • @134 doas, LiveCd (by Tom on 2009-06-17 02:51:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
For borrowed machines it might be worth having a couple of external drives that you can just plug in. Then its fairly easy to set the 'boot-order' right to look for bootable external drives before booting off internal drives. If investing in external drives sounds too much there are other options, such as using LiveCd sessions or Distro On A Stick as Live Usb sessions are becoming known. It's usually possible to set up a persistent image of your settings on a machine and this is even easier with a Usb Stick (doas) as the image can usually be stored on the same stick, hopefully. Someone here made a point of trying out various distros to see how easy they were to setup for doas and might be able to email some useful advice, i can't remember if hab or Denizen did the informal study.
136 • Some responses (Apologies in advance for being long-winded :) (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-06-17 02:58:14 GMT from United States)
#108: First, you are absolutely correct that you MUST run a lightweight window manager to get any sort of decent performance out of X in 32-64MB of RAM. I think the memory usage of PekWM is very close to that of Awesome or Ratpoison, but it offers window tiling which I very much like. fbpanel takes relatively few resources and adds a lot of functionality. fspanel is even lighter (memory usage ~10K) but doesn't offer nearly the functionality.
The only thing that is really slow is startup time for some applications. Once up they run surprisingly well. The key is to stick with very lightweight apps so that you hit swap as little as possible. You also, of course, run as few services as possible. You'd never run HAL (or any other automounting system) in 32MB of RAM. The performance hit is just too great.
#112: The reason I have mentioned Wolvix is that I have very good experiences with it on limited hardware so it does answer a question often asked. Yes, version 1.1.0 is nearly two years old. However, updates are still coming and still available. I'll point out that Red Hat/CentOS go that long between major revisions (actually longer) and they are the corporate desktop of choice. I don't believe a release every six months is necessary or even desirable. The 2.0 beta 2 is also surprisingly close to ready for prime time. Oh, and I didn't mention it this week until you did.
One more suggestion for a lightweight distro: Debris Linux 1.70 (beta). Again, it's very close to ready for prime time. It probably isn't quite as light as some of the other choices but it's not far behind and would be decidedly more comfortable for someone who prefers an Ubuntu/Debian style distro. Obviously using their Openbox desktop is decidedly lighter than either GNOME variation.
In regard to the discussion of Windows usage by Linux users I find my own experience over the last decade or so is different than what has been described so far. I'm something of a hired gun (Linux/UNIX consultant) so I probably have seen and worked with a wider variety of users than the average bear. My own experience is that folks who prefer Linux but use Windows fall into one of three categories:
1. They have to use Windows (or some app dependent on Windows) for their work or for school. They use Windows but not by choice. Given the choice they use Linux. This seems to be the most common category. I suppose I even fall into this group. The only time I use Windows is as a courtesy or service to a Linux/UNIX customer who wants me to do some Windows related work. I have the skillset and also have access to other consultants who are bona fide and certified Windows experts. It would be foolish of me to turn down such work in this economy and it would also be really poor customer service.
2. They have a very specialized personal application for which there is no adequate Linux equivalent. This was a very common reason a decade ago. It is relatively rare nowadays.
3. They are younger people, for the most part, who are avid gamers. The best selection of games (or some game they really like) is Windows-only.
Do these three groups of people make up an overwheming majority of Linux users? Just a few years ago I would have said yes. Today my experience is very different than Sean's. Probably half don't use Windows at all. Some do use Macs, BTW. Linux users don't seem to have the aversion to Apple they have to Microsoft. In particular, if the company or organization they work for uses Linux on the desktop they are really likely not to use Windows at all. That used to be rare but it is becoming more and more common.
FWIW, I am not disputing Sean's experience or saying it's somehow invalid. I'm just saying mine is different. Neither of us have data which constitutes scientific polling. Linux usage may also differ within different demographic groups or regions of the country. (We're both in the United States.) I would love to see some really scientific polling done on a relatively large sample.
One thing I will say: Among people who try Linux and stick with it for at least six months I know of exactly zero who decided they prefer Windows after all. I do know of quite a few people who got frustrated with the learning curve and gave up quickly. Those folks do go back to Windows.
Finally, to Simon: There is no such thing as a distro review that makes everyone happy. Review writing is almost thankless. Yes, some people will congratulate you on a job well done but there will always be a number of people who disagree with your opinion and will snipe. It comes with the territory.
I had a real chuckle courtesy of one of my detractors last week. He or she (an anonymous person so I don't know) read my resume and decided I didn't have a college education so I must not be qualified to do a review or have opinions about distros which mix politics into their Linux. 10 years ago a very smart technical recruiter told me that if I didn't have the right degree on my resume (as in one related to my field) that it was best to leave my education off. I revised my resume accordingly and she promptly placed me in an IBM contract. It seems the "wrong" degree can close some doors or be used as a disqualifier by some closed minded HR types. Never mind that some of the brightest computer people I've met had degrees in things like anthropology, music, or even medieval Russian literature. I think Adam Williamson said his degree is in history. Anyway, I've followed her advice ever since :) Education goes on the application, not the resume.
Oh, and yes, I know some really sharp and very well educated people who never got a sheepskin. FWIW, I studied physics. The point to this story is that if you write reviews be prepared to have your qualifications questioned (that happens often) and even to be subjected to personal attacks now and again.
Your review was different than one I would have written. Different viewpoints are valuable and informative. Simon, thank you for sharing yours.
137 • re #135 stick it linux (by hab on 2009-06-17 03:18:05 GMT from Canada)
With 8gb usb sticks now going for $14.99 in my area and 16gb for slightly less than double that amount this exercise of linux on a stick is becoming cheaper and cheaper!
Presuming one has a machine with relatively gracefully bios usage of usb and/or a selective boot. Simply plug in the stick and run your favorite partition editor and make a partition structure relative to you and your distros wants/needs and install to the stick.
Bob's yer uncle. You can boot the stick on any relatively modern hardware and all of the stuff in your home directory and all of the changes you make are persistent. Just like any other readable/writeable drive.
Jeez .............. ya' know if linux wasn't so limited!
138 • @135: DOAS (by Kevin on 2009-06-17 04:54:59 GMT from United States)
That would be Forrest who was playing with various distros and their respective adaptability (or lack thereof) to living on a USB stick.
139 • english 3-10-21 (by techqc on 2009-06-17 05:11:58 GMT from Indonesia)
By Jove! (Does anyone still use that expression? No one I know does.)
Never, in any degree whatsoever, tolerate an intolerant pedant,
as that would paradoxically be a crime against logic itself.
The review was not that bad - I am sure the reviewer may improve in the future.
His grammar illuminates the way he was thinking - not necessarily the same way
any given reader may think - which is, after all, a valuable objective of any review.
140 • #124 hab (by Xtyn on 2009-06-17 07:03:18 GMT from Romania)
"As to mac users being a little more inquisitive about linux, mac os x is really not all that far from linux. Or one of the bsds. At least philosophically."
I have to disagree. I think that Apple is worse than Microsoft. Philosophically, Mac os x is in total opposition with Linux.
In my opinion, Mac os x is more closed than Windows (if that's even possible). At least you can use Windows on any computer you want (or supports). You can only use Mac os x (legally) on the overpriced Apple computers.
I find it funny that Apple tries to separate Mac from PC, as if Macs were not PC's (personal computers). It's as if HP would try to separate itself from PC's just because they have HP-UX. "Hi, I'm a HP and I'm a PC." :))
141 • About Fedora 11 Review (by Anonymous on 2009-06-17 07:29:43 GMT from Brazil)
"your name is written in bold on the User Switcher applet, but when placed next to the clock it is not in bold". But the screenshot shows a bold name placed next to the clock.
142 • Old machines / Review Quality (by Wil Barath on 2009-06-17 08:33:29 GMT from Canada)
RE: threads about old machines:
My first linux box was a 386dx40 / 4M ram, with Trident TVGA 8600D / 1M ram and a 40M HD, I had PC-DOS 6.0, Windows 3.1, OS/2 Warp, and Slackware (ZipSlack) 2.0 installed on the PC-DOS partition using UMSDOS. 4M of ram wasn't really enough for X, so I upgraded to 16M and happily surfed the 'net with Mosaic using my trusty 33.6 Rockwell modem. At that time, OS/2 was much. much faster than Linux for surfing.
When I upgraded to Slackware 4.0, I got a Cyrix M/100 and amazingly the board took my 16M of FP ram, albeit slower than if I'd bought DIMMs. That machine rocked, and it never ran anything but Slackware. I eventually upgraded it with an ATI AIWPro and to 128M of EDO DIMM, for photo editing and encoding Robot Wars to VideoCD. That machine ran the UAE emulator fast enough that I put my Amiga A1200 away in the closet, and NetScape 3 Gold was pure lightning. Boot time was mere seconds with my hand-compiled kernel (no modules) and custom boot script which fired up X before even running fsck (using ramdisk for /tmp)
The point is this: if you run software that was designed for the hardware, you should be pretty happy with it. If you expect to run Google Earth on a 386, you may find your expectations trounced by reality. But your chances are better if you install as much RAM on the old machine as you would on a modern machine running Google Earth. :P
Now to review quality:
I've noticed a continuing trend of "First Impression" reviews frequenting this site. This has been going on for years now. Reviews invariably focus on the installer, the desktop appearance, 3D, and how easy it is to wedge binary blob into the system (or snobbish delight with how many are present).
First impressions are important to marketing, and this site has done a great job of beating some sense into the major distros - to market themselves better. However, most people visit this site for reviews, to learn about the latest and greatest in the world of Distros, so more reviews should really focus on what has changed since the last release, and the features which set the distro aside from the others.
Ie., any review of Fedora should focus on SELinux, X, the sound system, and virtualization enhancements, as these are Fedora's major areas of advancement. Failure to do so makes the reviewer less credible, and leaves all the readers wondering why they bothered reading the article.
On the bright side, there's lots of choices available to the readers, just as there are many Distros, there are numerous review sites to help us keep up to date with available technology, provide examples of how its used, and which Distros make it available. TBH, I have been relying more on YouTube lately... fanbois posting screencasts. =)
Anyhow, I hope Ladislav reads this and takes it to heart, the way I know he has hoped the Distros have taken his critique of Desktop ease-of-use to heart. I think Linux is now largely ready on the Desktop and its now time to stop harping that impression and focus on the underlying technology, performance, and perhaps ask why the Distros keep offering eco-unfriendly ISOs and generally only allow creating USB images from a booted ISO?
Food for thought.
143 • @124 & @ 140 (by Tom on 2009-06-17 09:56:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
Lol, i agree with Xtyn here about Mac's. When i read 124 i must have misread it because i think possibly the only thing thats really different between linux and Mac OS's is the philosophy.
I do think it's better than Windows tho, but mainly only because it's the underdog of the two. I think linux would do better marketed as a Free sort-of Mac(ish) rather than saying linux is a Free alternative to Windows. Mac carries a certain sense of glamour, exclusiveness and sophistication - it's rich graphic designers swanning around without a care in the world whereas Windows is the horribly slow virus riddled grimy nightmare you have to use in a dirty workplace where no-one cares.
144 • Fedora 11 (by robbage on 2009-06-17 10:06:31 GMT from Australia)
Fedora11/KDE install was very poor here. The boot screen occupied the top left quarter of the screen leaving the rest black. (text and graphical) Same happens booting the OS. KPackageKit crashes 100% of the time. The screen goes blank when trying to use the ControlPanel/Screen setting (And never recovers). STILL can't configure eth0 for static ip using the default network manager (same on every other distro using that POS)
Lost track of all the other problems.
So basically the same sort of quality as when Fedora 9 and 10 came out. OpenSuSe 11.1 is back and working extremely well.
145 • re#143&140 (by hab on 2009-06-17 12:55:50 GMT from Canada)
I am only speaking of the os. Not the co. that markets it. I find apple to be even more restrictive than ms, if that's even possible! I was merely referring to the unix origin and nature of the system itself. I had a hackintosh installed for about 2 years, so even though apple may say that you need their hardware that hurdle is easily bypassed.
If you look at the underlying filesystem (and It looks like quite a messy cock up to me) you can understand and see it's unix roots. Mac os x IS more like linux than it or linux is like windows.
Unfortunately ms and apple are much more alike. Each trying to out restrict and out market the other. To me that's what they are. Marketing companies. Not software makers or technology companies. Bloody marketing companies is what they have both morphed into.
And i wouldn't buy squat from either one.
146 • Ref#142 Not the same old story. (by Anonymous on 2009-06-17 13:52:41 GMT from United States)
We usually get the same old comments. Week in , week out.
It was quite refreshing to read your comment this late in the week. Very well thought out, and logical. thanks!
147 • addendum to #145 (by hab on 2009-06-17 15:34:31 GMT from Canada)
Apple's marketing methods and ms's for that matter are a triumph of style over substance or form over function. They market image (and in the case of apple, a fairly pretty image, albeit for me at least, a less usable image) and functionality and usability are at best secondary considerations. If they are considered at all.
Xtyn mentioned hp-ux. One wag suggested that that it was too bad packard's name didn't come first 'cause that would have made it ph-ux!
148 • Macs r unix (by john frey on 2009-06-17 16:10:41 GMT from Canada)
The reason "The Mac" is like Linux is the BSD base underneath. Since Linux emulates unix and BSD is unix it would follow that Apple OS built on BSD would be unix too. Just with an added GUI layer and a few file system changes to make it proprietary and not posix compliant.
I read a quote this week that really makes sense. "Linux is the new POSIX" which really makes a lot of sense when you learn (as I just did) that RMS coined the term for the IEEE standard.
HAB - you're absolutely right, MS and Apple are markenting companies. I like that. Where do you get your OS from, a marketing company or an software company? LOL
149 • back to Windows (by Priscilla on 2009-06-17 16:15:29 GMT from United States)
Caitlyn was doing pretty good up to:
"One thing I will say: Among people who try Linux and stick with it for at least six months I know of exactly zero who decided they prefer Windows after all. I do know of quite a few people who got frustrated with the learning curve and gave up quickly. Those folks do go back to Windows."
Many linux users prefer Windows, it's just that they dare not start a flame war in linux text forums by saying so. I am a linux user since 1997, but I prefer Windows and am fine with that. I also am a motorcycle rider, but I prefer my car.
I think many linux users are in denial about some of this. But that's ok because there is room in the computing world for all views as there is room for all systems.
150 • Back (to a client) to fix Windows (by Shawn on 2009-06-17 16:37:21 GMT from United States)
I'm not so sure about the "many" part but I'm not in that quantity when someone refers to me as one of them preferring Windows. Here's a story from two days ago - I had to fix a couple of computers running XP because of viruses and programs crashing all the time. Right now, it's at the point for me where it's easier and less time consuming (if you can believe it) for me to just reinstall Windows than to try and eliminate the viruses and other goodies in Windows, but then we have that EULA regarding installation of Windows a certain number of times on any specific machine. I literally feel like I'm a hamster running on its wheel when it comes to working on Windows machines. Granted, I'm using my Windows partition to type this right now because I needed to use Microsoft Project to do a couple of things. Turns out I just found out about OpenProj, an open source replacement for MS Project so there's one less (and the only) reason I had to boot up Windows.
Long story short, as I was sitting through 3 hours of agony trying to exorcise the demons that were possessing Windows, I was saying out loud and to myself (the Linux prayer?) that this is the reason I rarely use Windows and why I like alternatives. I prefer OS X to Windows if I'm a customer who owns a business and needs commercial support and Windows-compatible software, but I'm a Linux user at heart and have very many reasons to be.
Granted, I know that getting viruses and other forms of destruction is not completely Windows' fault, but at the same type, most of these users just do not do the simple things with regard to security such as making sure their virus scanner is up to date or even getting a free AV such as AVG in the first place if they do not have one. And not downloading every .exe file on the Internet helps as well, so does not using Limewire and other P2P programs to slow up the network where I get even more calls and complaints of "the network is slow". This is another reason I prefer Linux due to its advantage of being more secure through design. Anyways, I'm off to fix yet another Windows problem..
151 • Eeebuntu 3.0 base (by Ubu Walker on 2009-06-17 16:42:04 GMT from United States)
If you use an EeePC, you should roll on over to eeebuntu.org and download the .iso to play with on VirtualBox before installing. It rocks!
152 • re#149 linux users (by hab on 2009-06-17 16:46:07 GMT from Canada)
Frankly i believe you are laboring under the misapprehension that some of us hard core linux users actually CARE about what you or anyone else likes or uses!
For myself at least i really don't give a rat's ass. All i am concerned about is whats on the box in front of ME.
I am not here to try and sway any opinion or to change anyone's computer habits. I post here only for information purposes or to correct misinformation or misperception.
Run what YOU like and works for YOU. I can assure you it makes no difference to me or i suspect to many/most other inux/unix geeks. I have been persuaded by my own experience, not some post in a forum or some website review.
153 • @149 & @ 152 (by Tom on 2009-06-17 18:50:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hey give the girl a break! Both views are valid and come from different experiences of a different range of users. As has been said already it might be nice to get some good quality surveys done rather than all this anecdotal (but valid) 'evidence'.
Nowadays as a linux user i do really enjoy Windows, it's hilarious. So many assertions that Windows users make (when they haven't tried anything else) are so exactly wrong that i find it increasingly difficult to keep a straight face until i'm out of earshot. Wow the struggles, slowdowns and lack of any support worthy of the name (except cynically) that people put up with, that i used to put up with, is just pure comedy.
It seems that a lot of people try linux once or twice but keep returning to Windows until they are fully ready to switch over. I guess i did too but i didn't keep wiping the linux in frustration each time - just rebooted into the other side for a bit. ;)
154 • Macolytes ! (by DeniZen on 2009-06-17 18:57:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
I am posting this from a Mac as it happens.
OK, OK .. ;) I have a very specific reason why I own it - another story..:) but, unlike the majority of Mac owners I'm not a 'Macolyte'. At all.
I pretty much ignore everything else 'Apple' in fact. On the whole, the Apple thaang does smell of style over substance. Very much.
iPods for example. Ubiquitous to the point of tedium.
Sure, they are OK-ish, but , from what I often read, independent comparison reviews almost always conclude that they sound notably inferior to so many lower priced alternatives. Yet people continue to enthuse over them, and of course once reeled in to the hype, they inevitably get viscous at the merest questioning over the product ;)
I have listened to several models, and they are far from the best sound. Mediocre is definitely not good enough at that money.
I would always call myself a 'Linux' user.
That is my OS of choice, and what I use for almost everything outside of work (or at a 'heathen' friends house, or in a cybercafe, or trying to help Mrs D with her infernal obligatory Vista work Laptop.
Except, that is, for that one thing that currently ensures that I 'have to' use the Mac.
I wont go into details, I actually got flamed for spelling out something merely factual as 'an unpopular opinion' last time I did! but suffice to say it is to do with Digital Imaging, involving two specific and very costly commercial apps, and most importantly the driver for a specialist printer that requires Mac or .. W..
I have investigated workarounds - believe me! - there are none currently suitable - Trust me ;)
For 'me time' I enjoy Linux. I enjoy advocating Linux.
But, while I'm 'stuck' with it, I do happen to rather like OS X. It's got style _and_ substance IMO. Really not bad.
It has an Unix underpinning too, and a fully functional Unix cli system via teminal, and I have MacPorts installed so I can build from a 'portage' like system. All very Unix like under the hood, if you want.
Windows is simply something I sometimes have to use at work due to the Corporate IT policy, and the corporate apps that would get me fired if I refused to use my Work Admin tools on some ideological ground.
Luckily, I'm also surrounded by *nix boxen at work ;)
I used to keep a partition with XP on it, just for Nokia Software Updater, but I no longer do - the space it occupies, and the fact that I know that 'it is there' is hardly worth it just for that.
Not sure now why I ended up typing all that - got carried away.
On some kind of catharsis vibe maybe ;)
Oh and I forgot, I rather like my Mac (intel) hardware too .. it runs Debian real well on the 2nd partition ;)
155 • re#153 linux surveys (by hab on 2009-06-17 19:09:30 GMT from Canada)
Please forgive me if my reply to Priscilla sounded a bit harsh because that was not at all my intent. Perhaps reading my post #152 in a matter of fact way with no emotional emphasis would more closely emulate my intent. Cause in truth it pretty much sums up my take on windows ...........and mac for that matter. I really do not care what anybody runs.
I have friends who are on the other side of the windows/mac fence and i can assure we can all get together and drink beer and smoke wacky tobacco (and we do have some of the best wacky tobaccy in the world where i live) without wwIII breaking out. We can agree to disagree civily and politely.
It is after all about what each individual decides is right for themselves.
156 • @ Tom, 153 (by DeniZen on 2009-06-17 19:22:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
Indeed, but it's not always quite down to being 'ready' to make a 100% switch Tom ;)
I've been 'ready' to for a very long time, and I did 'switch 100%' in fact, for a long, long, long period previously.
But sometimes, there are specific factors that (currently) challenge that choice to move over '100%,
well .. not without making quite a sacrifice/change in another area of ones life.
And, personally, I'm not in a position to consider being 'ready' to do that.
But the day will come. I have little doubt.
157 • smoking (by Tom on 2009-06-17 20:09:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
This is the 9th time i've given up smoking except this time i've never really thought of it as giving up. I'm simply a smoker that hasn't had a cigarette today, or yesterday as it happens - now that i think about it i haven't had a cigarette in 15 or so years. And now that i think about that i feel my fingers just itching to roll one up, it's not as intense as the first three days but it's there.
When i'm in a cyber-cafe am i a Windows user? Clearly yes. I feel like i'm a linux user temporarily forced into Windows by circumstances outside my control but i just find that funny now. Am i betraying linux? No, linux is not a religion or something, it's just a 'choice' of OS's. If company policy, a certain bit of software or horribly a hardware set forced me into Windows for a while then the only appropriate emotion would be annoyance at them, and i'd try to enjoy the stupidity of it all :) We have to live in the world, not in some mythical linux fairyland. The "us and them", "100% one thing or the other" is a very limited and very masculine view and seems to sum up the Windows experience for me. In linux although we argue heatedly quite a lot we also seem to have a more sophisticated approach to mixing it all up a bit, a little of this and that and the other and hey presto, something that does all we want of it and a bit more :) A cook might put a little vinegar in something but doesn't force you to drink gallons of the stuff. Perhaps microsquish is like vinegar ;)
158 • I'll never 100% switch because.. (by Shawn on 2009-06-17 20:40:18 GMT from United States)
Basically, my background is in Computer Science and I'll have my Masters in Information Systems this coming November. It's just wiser for me to stay up to date with the current technologies and uses of all OSes than to stick myself in the middle of one camp and build walls. I use Windows, Linux, OS X and Solaris from time to time (I really do like Open Solaris, can't wait for it to get to the maturity of Linux in the near future). I don't use Windows "because I miss it" or "because I need it", I use it to stay one step ahead in a field that's constantly changing. If I were a lawyer, where would I be in my field once I stopped learning the new laws and policies in effect not only in my field of expertise, but also how those laws affect me and my profession? In this world, and in this economy, it's better to be the proverbial "Jack of all trades, master of none" than to be an expert on just one thing.
(Written from the now-fixed XP maching I've been running in circles with for the past couple of days)
159 • Complex emotions (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-17 20:47:56 GMT from United States)
You won't hear the "smite thee mighty monopolist beastie Microsoft" like some more adamant Linux supporters, but I do try to stay away from Windows as much as possible. I just like Linux more. But I still have a Windows XP installation for the following reasons:
-I still haven't found a good Gnome-based burning app. Both Brasero and GnomeBaker crash or fail to finish to burn, while Windows has no issues. I could install K3B, but I don't want to. Instead, I load up Windows and either use iTunes for music CDs or Nero for other stuff. (This is actually the reason why I booted into Windows)
-Unreal Tournament 2004 runs better in Windows. I moved away from PC games for a while; I finally bought a PlayStation 2. Nice little thing. So this isn't as big of a deal.
-Exact Audio Copy. Nuff said. Unless somebody pops up and says there's a better alternative on Linux, I'm going to rip my MP3's in beautiful EAC.
Other than that, I haven't had any issues using Linux nonstop.
@Denizen: I have two MP3 devices, an iPod nano (4th gen) and a Sansa Clip. The Nano gathers dust. It takes a lot of effort to keep its library in order, compared to Sansa's "drop the music in the Music folder, done" approach. And Ubuntu 9.04 just started supporting the iPod fully, but by that time I had become used to using the superior Clip, which has OGG support, too.
Yes, the iPod has good sound, but you can get _great_ sound for less money, oddly enough.
160 • P.M. (by Jerry B. on 2009-06-17 22:03:14 GMT from United States)
Nice to see a, "I guess it's about time to release another version of Parted Magic" instead of the usual, "The (so-and-so) team is proud to announce the newest release of (so-and-so).."
Kick back, relax with your beverage of choice, and murmur your release announcement to Distrowatch. My kind of developers.
161 • re#158 (by hab on 2009-06-17 22:30:59 GMT from Canada)
I understand your position and your stance makes sense for you and prolly money too!
I consider myself fortunate because for me there is no external pressure of any kind to use any particular platform. I use linux 100% of the time because nobody is pushing or pulling me any other way. I get to choose and use what i want!
That said i do keep up on whats going on. I have been registered in suns development program for about 3 years now. Primarily to gain access to solaris beta releases and such. Altho i never did any official work in comps for for anybody else (my trade was/is mechanical/machine repair) casual and hobby work did take up a good chunk of my time. As i have indicated before i set up and ran a small rural linux based dialup isp for a few years but to me that hardly counts as working in comps.
I had the win7 sys running with virtbox and to me it still blew chunks. Just like vista, xp and every previous iteration of windows. I have the latest solaris and i do mess with the bsds occasionally. I played with plan9 for a bit and am now reading up on open vms/vax . It is said that would be everyones fav os if it wasn't for unix.
Different strokes i guess ...............for different folks!
162 • No subject (by sertse on 2009-06-17 23:42:50 GMT from Australia)
Someone say earlier that Apple is all about "style over substance". The issue is that a lot of you assume technological superiority is all that matters. Apple at least is very upfront on their business strategy. People consciously and deliberately and by their own free will buy it because to *them*, the balance is in style and substance is best. A technology superior player without the Apple design, the "I'm cool by I use Apple" factor is genuinely not worth it to them. People aren't idiots for taking style into consideration. It just means you value different aspects more.
163 • "hab" (by Priscilla on 2009-06-18 01:35:36 GMT from United States)
"Frankly i believe you are laboring under the misapprehension that some of us hard core linux users actually CARE about what you or anyone else likes or uses!"
You're troubled beyond what is at issue here.
164 • @163 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-18 02:49:23 GMT from United States)
No, actually, he's not. The common stereotype is that Linux nerds will push and push and push until you use their OS.
That's not the case. We don't care if you use Linux or not. If you don't, tears won't be shed, babies won't die, the world won't explode. Your choice is yours to make, and it's none of our business to jump in on something that's (somewhat) personal like which operating system you're going to use. Hey, some people like Windows more. That's cool. No hatin'.
If anything, that's probably the best post anyone's made on this comment thread so far. The Linux community could use a little less caring overall.
165 • choice of a distro (by h2s on 2009-06-18 06:00:31 GMT from China)
IMHO the choice of a distro is based on the user's frequently used applications.if a program x works perfectly on distro y,it will not matter that distro y has good reviews,i'd rather use y since it gets my work going.it is all about choice and circumstances
166 • no Windows on my PC's (by Xtyn on 2009-06-18 06:10:17 GMT from Romania)
I haven't used Windows for years. I don't hate Windows, I'm just sick of it.
It's enough of a headache that my girlfriend uses Windows, she just doesn't want to try anything else. That's fine with me but there are always problems with it and guess who has to fix them.
I like the OS to do the work for me, not the other way around. Linux works for me, I would have to work for Windows.
It's true, I do love freedom and Linux is freedom, it's a community, it's a philosophy.
167 • ..... (by mika480 on 2009-06-18 10:30:38 GMT from Italy)
Red Hat,Suse,Canonical are very far away to be just "philosophy"...
so that's why I do love small distros....we all should..
They just want to be "M$ little clones"
Encourauge small distros...with Your support and with Your attention...
168 • AMA Desktop Linux (by Joshua M. Biscarra on 2009-06-18 10:30:43 GMT from Philippines)
To whom it may concern:
Is AMA Desktop Linux already discontinued?
Hoping to hear from you,
Joshua M. Biscarra, Bayanihan Linux User from the Philippines
169 • EEEbuntu 3.0 (by Kevin on 2009-06-18 11:22:23 GMT from United States)
Props to EEEbuntu 3.0....1st of the netbook specific distros to run well on my netbook, 1002HA (the brushed aluminium variant). All the others (Easy Peasy, Ubuntu NBR) had issues with sound...i.e, no sound or with latest EP got it fixed per guide and after update it died again & I couldn't get it back. I dl'ed and installed the base install which comes with Gnome, Firefox and the EEE PC tool & that's pretty much it. Allowed me to add what I wanted and avoid bloatware I don't use. So far, go good and I finally got to free myself from XP with the EEE... :>)
170 • silly (by Priscilla on 2009-06-18 11:25:52 GMT from United States)
"The common stereotype is that Linux nerds will push and push and push until you use their OS."
I've never encountered such a person, not regardng an operating system, anyway. The only thing close to it that I can think of is the notion that linux users know more about computers than the average windows user does. That one may be true.
But if we have to extend it to "people who know more about compters than other people are 'nerds'," then we're stretching sensibilities to fill out a "stereotype" in our minds.
"Nerds," if they still exist, were always just kids who cared about their grades more than their perceived image around campus, in my experience.
But that is an interesting fear expressed there: "..a common stereotype.." regarding linux regular users. Since that does not exist, those who believe that it is true are the only ones perpetuating that "stereotype."
171 • @Priscilla (by Miq on 2009-06-18 12:12:25 GMT from Sweden)
You're over-interpreting, and my impression is that you're trying to undertake the construction of a plump chicken from those lovely minute feathers floating around.
So instead do as me: I'm going to have a nice cup o' tea and a biscuit.
172 • @170 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-18 12:50:16 GMT from United States)
If you haven't met someone like that, you're actually fairly lucky. They're rare, but they do exist, on occasion. Your assumption that they don't is actually fairly puzzling.
But if you do go on any computer forum that isn't very Linux friendly (like, say, ZDNet or ComputerWorld) you will find many pieces of false information flying around about Linux and its users. Things like:
-You have to use the command line every other minute or so just to get anything done
-There are no programs for Linux, making it useless (my favorite)
-Only computer nerds use Linux because it's so difficult
-Everyone who uses Linux actively tries to evangelize its use and will keep pestering you about it until you use the darn thing
-Linux users don't care about non-free software and will go out of their way to bash anyone who uses proprietary programs (the RMS delusion)
And other general ideas that people assume about you if you say you use Linux, which I've run into now and again. And of course there are people who do fit in to these stereotypes, where often many people will use as their proof.
If you haven't run into their these people or the stereotype, I bow to you; you've managed to blindly ignore something I've been attempting to dispel from my mind for two years.
173 • linux and nerds (oy vey) (by Sean on 2009-06-18 12:54:15 GMT from United States)
My colleague, Priscilla, can speak for herself well. But reading this stuff today is a study in classic old Usenet side-stepping.
The self negating phrase, "nobody cares what you think," to paraphrase Hab, is all over the alt.flame.* archives. I did not think for the life of me I would see it used here in the Distrowatch Comments.
But there it is. She's right, Hab; you do seem to be very much "troubled beyond the issue.." to uncork such an emotional response to her opinion here.
I have a feeling that you know all of this; I've seen calmer, more measured posts by you in here.
Now, linux and Windows. Just look at the factual responses and we see that range of use that was brought up in the original post about our survey; not exactly, but so close that our error margin seems to be covered well.
174 • re#173 (by hab on 2009-06-18 13:33:46 GMT from Canada)
Well i think you have just established your credentials as an unbiased researcher!
If you wish to paraphrase me at least be somewhat accurate.
My statement to your colleague was "Frankly i believe you are laboring under the misapprehension that some of us hard core linux users actually CARE about what you or anyone else likes or uses!"
Nothing really about what anybody thinks. Only about what they like or use.
Railing about what someone else thinks would be a little insane. Not to mention useless!
If you or anyone needs to twist or misconstrue what i said for their own purpose or to their own end, well i guess then, that you really don't get the point.
Go do your research or whatever you think you are trying to accomplish. G'luck with that.
175 • AMA Desktop Linux (by Tom on 2009-06-18 13:41:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
I've not heard of this and couldn't find it in the DW databeae! There's only 1 other linux distro i've heard of that isn't in there and that's more of an advanced themes pack rather than a full distro.
176 • doas (by Tom on 2009-06-18 13:51:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
Even since Forrest did his research sticks have dropped even further in price and increased in drive space also we've had several major distros - i think Mandriva, openSUSE, Ubuntu and certainly Fedora - all release major new upgrades. Is doas more viable now? Any chance of a comparison review sometime in DW?
I found this article but not sure if it's helpful, an assessment of it from Forrest would be much appreciated
Thanks and regards from
177 • #174 like!=think? (by Anonymous on 2009-06-18 14:14:14 GMT from Canada)
Nothing really about what anybody thinks. Only about what they like or use.
178 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-18 15:21:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
DOAS. I did play around with putting distros on sticks but only in as much as using the "on-distro" facility. I found the easiest way to achieve a good result was to allow the "on-distro" applicationto do the entire thing and manage the partitioning itself.
(I found too that when re-using a stick it was best to return the stick to "as-bought-new" and reformat to FAT16 or whatever FAT it was.)
The only option I bothered with was deciding on the amount of permanent memory. I used virgin sticks of at least 8GB, which are easy to obtain in the UK, and as cheap as chips (french fries).
Ref the sticks themselves, I found that bigger the better owing to filling said memory up quite quickly, with user originated stuff ie. d/l of film files say. The minimum size I saw suggested was 1GB, which I would hazard is a tad too small. It is a bit boring to see "dumping to memory" or some such.
It might be as well to mention that sometimes it was possible to load a "foreign" image onto a stick by using the app in U9. I found however this is of limited use owing to U9 not being able to identify "live" images every time...of course, Ubuntu "clones" scored a higher success rate.
There is another application, the name of which escapes me for the moment, which I gather is a lot better at the job, and I would suggest anyone wanting to experiment use that app instead.
I was never entirely sure if an "update" was properly written to a stick, such as passwords. Sometimes a pw was stored, sometimes not. On the update topic it might be a wise notion to allow rather more that the nominal size of the distro to allow for adding/updating of apps etc.
I found Knoppix very easy to run on a stick, even to using compiz (?) for the wobbly screen/transparent cube with gears.
On the whole, I found the Puppy series were very amenable to living on sticks and the option to load the distro image entirely into ram made them very brisk in operation, including wifi, which was usually a case of doing nothing on boot then waiting for the invitation to enter the pw.
However, sometimes it was a puzzle, to me, LOL...why I could not divert a file to save onto an external hard drive with a guarantee of doing so. I found the Us better at this. Obviously there is a perfectly satisfactory explanation why (? LOL), but beyond my present skill level, or dare I say my interest level.
It is probably superfluous to mention...but it is a wise move to find out prior to experimenting with usb sticks that "a" BIOS allows booting from a stick...a point to remember if you are attempting to showcase a distro to a prospective devotee...
I did not get round to installing from a stick to a hard drive so can't say how easy it is or is not...but given a stick works faster, we are told, than reading from a CD/DVD it would probably be a bit faster overall, if time really was of the essence.
With reference to the general comments this week, and comments specific to Fedora, I was a trifle dismayed to find its installation, universally, was not as straightforward as hoped (by the community at large, say).
Naturally, I am fully aware of the hobbyist lobby on the forum but if GNULinux is to gain universal acclaim, Fedora is perhaps not the way to do it. It seems that there are fixes for this, that and another, which is, by some accounts perfectly acceptable, but hardly satisfactory for a newbie.
Of course there will be cries of Fedora's not for newbies...but Linux is for everyone and it should work without any probs at all, straight out of the box. I have read the arguments that if you are not prepared to learn about the vagaries of Linux then it's not really for you...but actually it is for you and everyone else, so they can just use it for work or leisure, without needing a qualification in computer science.
(And what was all that guff about questioning folk's qualifications anyway? It's only an OS system, not a religion, LOL.)
There's nothing wrong at all with being hobbyist but hobbyists should realise distros are not exclusively for them and not, as is sometimes the case, disparage the lack of skill or enthusiasm of others.
Fortunately, the Us do just work for me and countless others; wifi, printing, watching media, albeit with additional "click a button" efforts, burning media...without any drama at all.
The Fedora review mentioned the test machine was loaded with 4GB of ram, which is a "lot" in anyone's money...possibly those who had difficulties might get a chance to install more memory and then try again?
I don't suppose for a moment the amount of memory is the universal answer to installation/running probs, but I would echo an earlier comment along the lines of more memory is better than a faster proc if you had to choose....not to mention cheaper and far easier to install.
Adam W, good lad that he is, was trying his best to "sort" out folks' problems, but it did come across as damage limitation...possibly some folk won't agree but to others it was.
It was pretty unusual too for protagonists of a distro to go to such enormous lengths to defend a distro when a lot of folk know, "not all distros work on all machines".
It's not a disgrace or a failure to anyone if a distro does not install or work whatever...it happens...why tho' is anyone's guess...
179 • Mandriva at Berlin ! (by glyj on 2009-06-18 16:18:23 GMT from France)
If you like Mandriva and you are near Berlin.....you are lucky !
have a look here:
180 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-18 16:51:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
Only just read the article.
Well it seems a lot of effort what with editing and so forth...fine if you are up for that sort of thing...and good mental exercise, of course. I would venture to suggest it would have been a "better" article, if Slitaz had been installed "virgo intacto", then, when happy with the set up, folk could be invited to read a second article on culling the unwanted/needed stuff.
Having seen some of the comments at the end of the article, re Ubuntu users asking questions, it would be far simpler for them to use the on-distro package from U9 to do the work for them.
The added bonus is that they are using U9 anyway and it would be familiar territory.
I have to say tho', having done all the "experimenting" I personally never actually found an opportunity to use it, LOL. Nobody would let me near their machine...and why should they? Just because you can reassure them 'til the Sun goes cold does not mean they believe you...or you won't make a cock up.
And, when you think about it, where in fact can you just lay your hands on an "orphan" machine, get into the BIOS, change the boot order (or just press F9 on some machines and change the boot order on a temporary one-off basis?).
(It's not as if PCs are just lying about...I do some volunteer work and there is a PC, running XP, for the staff to use whenever, but the sys admin bloke has it locked down tighter than a mermaid's purse.
On a brighter note tho' I just gave him a dozen odd CD roms full of distros...thus far he has expressed a delighted interest.)
I'm just guessing here course, but if you tried this self decided do-a-distro-a-day stunt at work, I would imagine you would incur the not unreasonable and not inconsiderable wrath of the IT blokes/girls.
Hmmm, just the sort of press Linux needs...
181 • @ Forest 178 (by DeniZen on 2009-06-18 18:06:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
Firstly, thanks - informative post.
I have to put my pedant hat (a fedora ;) ) on for this though ;) :
quote; "Of course there will be cries of Fedora's not for newbies...but Linux is for everyone and it should work without any probs at all, straight out of the box"
'Linux' itself is not for everyone - as it is the kernel !
Fedora, and the legions of other offerings are Distributions that run 'atop that kernel.
Fedora is not really the best choice for 'newbies' nor does it position itself to be.
Its a rather 'serious' Distro, perhaps, though it does look very elegant to my eye. It is deliberately without non-free elements. It currently has some installation idiosyncrasies. One could interpret that as unapologetically unsuitable as the choice of a true ' newbie '.
Sort of, in the same vein that Debian Unstable might be.
'Linux Distributions' are not for everyone.
Sourcemage is really, really not 'for' most people.
But would be the spot-on choice of some people
Ubuntu purports to be for 'everybody', and it could conceivably be - but many may simply not warm to it for their own genuine reasons. (and some in-genuine ;) )
My own recent experiences suggest to me that Fedora is very good at being 'what it is', but not what some may imagine it to be.
Apols for the Pedant hat, it is off again now ;)
182 • Re: #136 - Windows usage by Linux users (by eco2geek on 2009-06-18 18:28:51 GMT from United States)
I keep Windows around for two reasons. First, I just like playing around with operating systems (and I provide tech support to my wife, who prefers Windows for business use).
The second reason is that Windows presents certain advantages over Linux. For example, I bought an album through iTunes the other day that was only available through iTunes. Since there's no native iTunes client for Linux, I wouldn't have made the purchase if I only had Linux at my disposal. (Apparently iTunes doesn't run that well under either WINE or Crossover Office.)
That's the only reason I hope more people switch to, or start using Linux - the more users it has, the more incentive companies like Apple will have to write software for it. There's no reason there couldn't be a native iTunes client for Linux other than it's not yet worth Apple's money to create one.
Note to Sean (#119): You would be more credible about your poll and its conclusions if you posted a link to at least one of the articles in the "three campus organs back in 2006" you said you published it in. Just saying.
183 • Linux magazines (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-18 18:40:01 GMT from United States)
I walked into a Barnes & Noble (a bookstore, for the non-US users) and noticed that there was an entire section of the magazine racks dedicated to Linux magazines. I'm not kidding - at least ten or twelve of them, and fairly visible, too. There were more Linux magazines than
I had some times to burn, so I grabbed a Linux Format and crashed on a chair for a half-hour. If only it wasn't so expensive over here in the US! They also had a very nice looking special that came with OpenSUSE 11.1 that taught new users how to install and use it, and I must say that was one of the nicest looking tutorials I've seen yet.
Very cool, seeing all those magazines and DVD's all on sale there.
184 • @183 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-18 18:42:26 GMT from United States)
Sorry, my laptop deleted a line.
There were more magazines than regular PC magazines. I started harbouring the notion that the owner of the Barnes & Noble was a Linux hobbiest like the rest of us.
185 • Windows Usage (by Paul B on 2009-06-18 19:24:27 GMT from United States)
I will confess that all my computers are multiple boot with XP or Vista. I keep the systems updated and current because:
1. I paid for them, and it costs nothing to keep them up-to-date.
2. I have an old data base that I have been too lazy to convert from MSWorks. (I have a newer version of Works on the Vista machine, but It can't read the older version data base. Don't we just love MS?) So If I need to consult it, I still have XP on that machine.
3. I am getting to the age where the medical profession has me in their clutches. They give you lab reports etc. But it comes in some e-medicine thing created by MS so that only IE opens the information for viewing.
4. Vist is so incredibly slow at startup and shutdown that I often watch just to remind myself how unbelievebly bad it works. Although, now Service Pack 2 cannot be installed on dual boot systems. MS recommends re-installing Vista. Yeah, right.
5. My understanding (I am not a lawyer) is that, if I have a legal copy of a MS product, I am not bereaking any laws by downloading Microsoft fonts and codecs.
Needless to say, none of these reasons gives me much need or want to use Windows. And so I don't, except for weekly updates.
186 • @185.... (by Kevin on 2009-06-18 22:04:45 GMT from United States)
If you want to improve Vista's performance somewhat, you can shut off System Restore (I always do b/c System Restore pretty much blows anyway...), but that's up to you and check out Black Viper's guide to killing unnecessary services (there's an XP version as well); easy to find if you google "Black Viper." Also, StartUpCPL or the standalone .exe is nice to have to manage your startup apps. The CPL version stashes StartUp in the Control Panel.
187 • @ 178 Forest (by Tom on 2009-06-18 23:08:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Brilliant, thanks for all that :) Informative but not what i was hoping to hear lol - good to know i'm probably barking up the wrong tree before i getting to involved in this. Thanks :)
188 • @182 Apps for Linux (by Untitled on 2009-06-18 23:15:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
I don't know why Apple didn't write iTunes for Linux as well, but I'm curious to know why Amazon thought it was worth while for them to have a Linux client for their MP3 downloader from the moment they rolled out the service. Yes, I realise that iTunes does more than only download MP3 files which requires more work, but I think that if Apple really wanted to write one they could have done so by now.
I have the feeling some companies think that there are enough Linux users out there and expect for more to come, and decided that they want to be the early bird. I think that one such company is HP. In the office, the Windows users have had problems getting the multifunction printer to work properly and our IT guy has still not managed to get it to work properly after months of trying and speaking to HP, while it works perfectly on my machine which runs Linux. I've had the same experience with the HP multifunction printer at home which installed on my machine on no time while it was a struggle to get it to work on my partner's computer running Vista.
I think this will work for companies like HP and Amazon who support Linux without making a big fuss out of it. Personally, I respect them for respecting me and my choice of operating system and giving me the same level of customer service as they give users of other operating systems.
In a sense, it's like the pink pound (dollar, euro, whatever). Companies catering for otherwise neglected audiences win twice: the first is when they serve an audience without having any competition, and the second is when the competition finally comes, they will have created brand loyalty for not excluding us in the first place.
189 • @188 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-19 01:20:07 GMT from United States)
I just went over to eMusic the other day to check out some free offer they had, and discovered they had a Linux client much like Amazon. Out of the blue, no ads or anything. So nonchalant and simple.
I expect to see more of this in the future.
190 • pervasive linux (by hab on 2009-06-19 03:14:36 GMT from Canada)
So here we have this lovely little hobby os. Works like a hot damn on my desktop!
So, apparently, as leading indicators indicate for a whole lot of other people too!
If i take it to the enterprise it quickly transcends being a hobby os and works it's little butt off.
If my enterprise needs super computing power and/or clustering, well my golly gee, linux does that as well.
Of course linux is already running in several vm partitions on the company mainframe.
The sales staff all got cell phones recently. Holy crap! They are running linux. ?
The kids wanted a playstation. The damn thing can run linux. From what i hear xbox does also.
Seems the only place that it hasn't made it big time is the consumer desktop. Of course over time this is changing, perhaps a tad slowly.
I have always thought of linux gaining ground not by tidal change but rather a slow steady rise in sea level. Implacable, inexorable,.......unstoppable!
191 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-19 09:08:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
Perhaps if we were NOT spoiled for choice, what with hundreds of desktop contenders...and there was a solid "guaranteed" distro...which did not need a high level of experience/expertise...easy to install...which folk knew about...ah, wait a moment...there is one (or two or three) there already...but "it" did get pooh poohed by the hobbyist faction...as "borrowing" freely from work done by others (eh?) and yes of course we do know the series of distros...the ubiquitous Ubuntu (s).
Lately there has been learned discussion among devotees that "this" version is not as light as made out...and "that" version won't do whatever cos of this, that and the other...but so what? Does it work? Yes. Can it replace MS stuff? Very, very, nearly.
Some folk openly despair when the Ubuntu name appears, why? Because in their perception it has commercial roots or it is successful on notebooks or is too vanilla?
Folk seem to forget, or not consider, it could be this constant debate and deconstruction of "a" distro which puts would be Linux converts off. I am aware we are all guilty to some extent or another, LOL.
Take the Fedora debate, as the one that most springs to mind owing to it being the most recent...if you were thinking about becoming a fellow traveller...and took a gand at this website with the distro info on the front page...then, you dropped into the forum, you could be forgiven for thinking, "Ah, Linux desktop, (and its many cloaks I hasten to add...) is not quite ready yet it seems...hmm, I think I'll leave it for a bit".
The irony is, Ubuntu has been ready for most folk for a while now, but is not supported as the "entry level" distro. Surely it is better to get folk aboard the GNULinux OS, then show them the vast choice available to them once they have their toe in the water.
That's exactly how I arrived, via a freebie CD (U7) in a mag. It installed and just worked...but I knew nothing of Distrowatch or even distros as an entity. Had I known of the alleged "endless" probs beforehand I could easily have thought the same...and still plugged away with XP.
It might be something to bear in mind when next "engaging" in animated debate, LOL. Sometimes folks can be their own worst enemy...
192 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-19 09:11:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ooops, I should have added..."oh oh, here it comes, LOL"
193 • OT: #191 rake a pee :-) (by DG on 2009-06-19 09:47:10 GMT from Netherlands)
I've smiled every time I've seen you use the colloquial "gand" and wondered whether
everyone would understand it, but it seems that the original comes from American usage:
194 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-19 10:49:00 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ref "gander", LOL.
I had no idea in was from USA, it is old slang here, mainly in London area, AFAIK.
So, what you are saying is...I have re-introduced old USA dialect into USA...so those folks have absolutely no excuse for not knowing what the term meant...LOL.
I notice that some US folks use colloquialisms here, which is always interesting, well to me anyway...so I thought I would return the compliment.
195 • Fedora hpd (by Tom on 2009-06-19 12:28:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
Oooo, sad to see Fedora pipped at the post by 67 points yesterday. A good run though.
196 • ;) (by DeniZen on 2009-06-19 12:31:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
Theres loads of colloquialisms for 'taking a look' eh?
Yes, I like to have a 'Gander', or a 'Squizz' , or a 'Butchers'
(Cockney Rhyming slang - Butchers Hook = 'look')
[cue that tune by Bodyrockers ..]
But most of all ..
Yeah mooost of aaaalll ..
I like to Rake a Pee-ee
197 • this and that (by Adam Drake on 2009-06-19 13:35:14 GMT from United States)
@ 185 • Windows Usage
"I paid for them, and it costs nothing to keep them up-to-date."
That's called a sunken cost. It costs your time of updating and keeping your systems virus free(ish).
"I have an old data base that I have been too lazy to convert from MSWorks."
Ouch. Never heard of an MS Works database. I can't believe that system is still around!
"But it comes in some e-medicine thing created by MS so that only IE opens the information for viewing."
This is a valid reason if you can't get it running in wine or IE4Linux...
Sounds like you don't really have a reason to run Vista at all (maybe XP for the IE issue). That legal copy of Windows might keep you from breaking laws by downloading MS fonts and codecs, but I don't see why you would actually have to have it installed...
@ 188: Apple doesn't write apps for Linux for the same reason that MS doesn't. It wouldn't make good business sense to write free applications for a competing OS that is also free. What would they sell? :) Amazon and the others realize the potential of reaching out to Linux users because they are not trying to sell an OS.
Gander: That word is still used here in Ohio and I would hope that most people around here at least know what it means. I will admit that it totally sounds British to me though. I like using words that sound British anyway. For me it's the new cool thing to set myself apart from my fellow rednecks. :)
198 • re#197 (by hab on 2009-06-19 13:42:27 GMT from Canada)
Do you have a gun rack in your pickup? ;-)
199 • @198 (by Adam Drake on 2009-06-19 13:51:38 GMT from United States)
Nope. But I DO have a pickup and a matching "Chevy Trucks" ball cap. :)
200 • re#199 (by hab on 2009-06-19 14:01:16 GMT from Canada)
I'd rather push a chevy than drive a ford!
201 • MS Works (by Tom on 2009-06-19 14:50:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
Rofls, since when? I'm guessing there probably is a more mis-named product out there. I would guess that the database is really just a look-up spreadsheet rather than a complex relational one and so exporting the data as a single "cvs" (text, stands fro comma separated values) file should be possible - or maybe hacking into it and extracting the data forcibly from something in linux should be fairly possible. I like the idea of having a dual boot with Windows installed inside a virtual machine inside a linux and then using the same product key on both but i think i would still steer clear of actually using it, if i could ;)
202 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-19 15:27:27 GMT from United Kingdom)
Adam Drake you have made my day! Here in UK we wish people would speak English too, LOL. I refer to our teenage population not our foreign guests...
And, so as to keep on topic, as a general comment, has anyone noticed how many distros are being developed in the venaculars...without any nod towards English at all. I have broached this topic before but I have to say I find it all fascinating stuff.
I would laff my differences off if it transpired that while we were all nattering away in English about this and that prob on this and that distro trying to solve whatever, we English speakers were actually in the minority and everyone else on the planet was knee deep in their own distro with nary a bad word to say about anything, and just getting on with computing, LOL!
203 • linux distro multiplicity (by hab on 2009-06-19 16:15:19 GMT from Canada)
I don't believe that the very large number of distros is anywhere near the problem it is made out to be.
Really there are only a handful of mainstream distros. And their many derivatives. From where i sit i really don't see this as a bar to entry. Anyone determined to get into linux may need to do a little more reading and learning, i know i did, but maybe it serves to bring to linux a somewhat higher level of acumen than the other two biggies.
In fact i believe it may actually be a good thing. As someone noted above distros are being launched in native languages other than english. Maybe living in the english speaking world has somewhat skewed our views.
The 'west' is the smaller percentage of the planet. If linux adoption were to take off in china or india i think the rest of the world would end up riding the coattails of that kind of surge in usage.
After all, as i have mentioned before, scratch the surface of any distro and it is pure, beautiful linux underneath. To me a least the distro squabbling that goes on is kinda like nieces and nephews arguing. There may be a lot of smoke and noise but there is very little, if any fire!
204 • #183 Linux magazines and #191 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-19 16:26:20 GMT from Canada)
I just went to "Chapters" bookstore (Canada).
There were only about 5 Linux mags. (many, many non-linux)The book section had about 4 feet of shelf labelled Linux;almost all the books had "Ubuntu" in the title, and the other couple of books were explaining gnome/ubuntu apps.
A few years ago there was at least twice as much space for linux books.
There can be no question that for this store (Windsor. Ontario) Ubuntu IS linux
205 • Wolvix Server (by D.V.D on 2009-06-19 17:35:58 GMT from United States)
Is there a problem with the Wolvix server?
206 • Why turn your back on Ubuntu? (by Shawn on 2009-06-19 18:23:51 GMT from United States)
I never understood the complex people had in mentioning Ubuntu. I started using Ubuntu when it first came out and people wanted it to grow to become more user-friendly and to give MS a run for their money. Now that Ubuntu has matured and the people who wished it greatness back then are cursing it now, I just don't get it. Like with Slackware, it is what it is and became what it is through a vision. The same is exactly true with Windows albeit on a different level as Slackware was a one-man vision while Ubuntu had both the Linux community behind it was well as Canonical.
The other day I was using openSUSE 11.1 on my netbook. I hadn't used it in a while and decided to do the updates that were available. openSUSE 11.1 froze and I couldn't reconnect to the Internet. I'm sure with some time and effort I could have fixed the problem, but I wasn't in the mood having been messing with WIndows XP machines all week so can anyone guess which distro I put in openSUSE's place? Here's a hint, it begins with a "U" and it's brown. Very brown.. ;)
The way I see it, Ubuntu has reached an apex where it's mature, well-known and liked by the people that use it. Its purpose is to draw more people to Linux. How this is a bad thing, I do not know. With the hundreds of Linux distributions out there, I don't see the need to bash something that's fulfilling its purpose because Linux is free and we can choose to run whatever distribution we want regardless of which country we're in. Comparing Ubuntu to MS in terms of popularity is a great thing as far as I'm concerned. Canonical has the foresight and experience to do what it takes to promote, advertise and market Ubuntu. That's what Ubuntu needs to be successful and that's why there are more than a handful of books on the shelves of popular bookstores. Once Ubuntu hits it big and customers lose interest in Ubuntu and look for an alternative, there's a whole world for them to discover that's only a Google search away.
207 • @206 Amen to Shawn! (by Patrick on 2009-06-19 19:03:35 GMT from United States)
Finally someone worded clearly what I have been thinking too for a while! ;)
As someone else mentioned: MS and Apple are marketing companies, more than they are software companies. If we just consider Canonical and Ubuntu to be the "marketing department" of the Linux ecosystem, what's wrong with that?
This may actually be a bigger service to Linux in general than, say, how many Canonical developers contribute code to the kernel. Let's face it: the kernel is an awesome piece of technical excellence as it is! It really does not need much more help. But getting more customers to reap the benefits of free software instead of them continuing to pay for junk (and in the process making the biggest enemy of Linux stronger) should be very high on the to-do list. If Canonical continues to do that, I can only applaud it.
Sometimes people say they don't care how many people use Linux, so it doesn't need to be marketed. I used to feel that way, until I realized that, indirectly, it does matter to me how many people use Linux. Why? Because I want my hardware to work! And the only way hardware manufacturers will ever care about providing drivers or open specifications for their part is if it might hurt them in their sales if they don't. So more people using Linux can be the only argument to convince them.
Disclaimer: Yes, I do use Ubuntu, but I also use Debian, Sidux, Mint and have used SuSE and Fedora. It's all Linux people, the flavor really doesn't matter much. I also use "vanilla Linux" for embedded development using buildroot. Especially for embedded development, I care a lot about what hardware is supported natively, since stuff like ndiswrapper can't help you on non-x86 systems.
208 • @206 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-19 19:04:40 GMT from United States)
I've wondered that. You go look at LinuxPlanet's reviews, and every single one is "See you later Ubuntu, hello Distro X" or some variation. It's always as if they're dispelling some stinky cheese or something.
I'm always surprised when people say, "Well, Ubuntu isn't that great because it doesn't work in every situation." Well, yeah, that's probably the case with every OS out there. "Ubuntu is bloated," is a good complaint, sure. But Fedora is about the same and OpenSUSE is even fatter. Where are the people crying about how those are bloated as well?
It all comes down to your machine, your knowledge, and your preference. For example, I run away screaming at any distro with wicd installed by default. Even with a working Ubuntu install with Wireless I still wasn't able to get wicd to work. But what are you going to do sometimes?
209 • limitations (by Tom on 2009-06-19 19:38:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
One machines "bloat" is another's "fully featured". Wicd not perfect!! Surely it is. What's better? lol ;)
I can sense that some people are annoyed about the majority of us saying linux when we really mean gnu&linux but i think this is a battle that has already been lost. I've heard that there's also gnu&hurd? Also distrowatch caters to more than 'just' linux having (quite rightly imo) BSD and unix's on our shelves but still i think all of these are being thought of when people say linux. Lets face it, linux is fun to say :)
210 • re#208&206 (by hab on 2009-06-19 19:39:31 GMT from Canada)
I would have to agree wholeheartedly with both of your sentiments regarding the big brown U. While i don't personally use it day to day i don't hesitate to recommend it to a convert to the way of the penguin. Especially if i deem the choice to be reasonable to them and their circumstance.
After all almost anything that advances linux is demonstrably better than nothing.
Oh and in the interests of full disclosure i don't use ubuntu day to day but i have downloaded and installed every release so far. So i do have some idea of what i speak about.
Ya know maybe the smoke and noise about it (or any other popular distro) is really more from the new kids on the block rather than the veterans!
211 • @205 (by D.V.D on 2009-06-19 20:39:59 GMT from United States)
Please ignore post @205. It is working now.
212 • Wolvix (by Tom on 2009-06-19 21:05:01 GMT from United Kingdom)
Ooops, sorry i did check and meant to post something in here but i'm glad you've found out despite me :)
213 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-19 22:32:59 GMT from United Kingdom)
Tom and Denizen of Uk fame.
Re earlier comments on DOAS. I should add a coda to MY findings...that was what I found for me at MY skill level and choice of kit. It is not unreasonable you might get that step further...
And yes, I was painting with a very broad brush...I was using "Linux" as the collective noun for all things distro.
I further believe "Linux" distros should be accessible to ALL folk regardless of their abilties, from kids to the special needs/learning disabilities folk, without having to learn "Linux"...I think they should just be able to click buttons.
I have worked with all sorts of folk in access theatre and behind some "unseen" hideous disabilties I can see no real reason why they should not experience some sort of fun or perhaps a sense of achievement in using a computer...just don't ignore the fact what they want more than anything is to be like everybody else.
214 • Re: Ubuntu (206,208,210) and Pardus BETA out! (by Sertse on 2009-06-19 23:37:58 GMT from Australia)
My original post got clobbered :(
Re Ubuntu: Agreeing with your general statements. Ubuntu doesn't really deserve the hate. Sure it has flaws, but nothing doesn't ad it does on average do very well for a new user. Part of reason for the hate is also probably explained in my tongue in cheek "distro you can sleep well at night" post last week, you have to be absolutely pure in some arcane sense otherwise you're "evil" ;) Of course this means you'll be in cat eating illuminatai... Anyways, "youse" covered all I wanted to say :)
In others Pardus BETA (and beta means beta!) is released today. It has one of the best implementations of KDE I've seen, and is generally a very good OOTB general purpose distro. You can also sleep well at night with it, Pardus is one of the most mature and longest running Govt supported FLOSS projects, (though independently run) and the Pardus devs, from what I've seen work very actively in engaging the Turkish computer community. (Pardus is in both English and Turkish, but it's mainly developed/purpose is to be a OS replacement for Turkey)
215 • re#214 (by hab on 2009-06-20 00:03:39 GMT from Canada)
Causes me to wonder how many countries and to a lesser degree even organizations are quietly and diligently working away a at a national linux os .
I imagine it is getting real old real fast having to forward millions or hundreds of millions of dollars out of the local economy to companys like ms and apple.
Especially in light of the global financial sinkhole were all in!
Maybe just enough incentive to engage in an endeavor to plug that kind of drain!
216 • @214 (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-20 03:01:01 GMT from United States)
Pardus is amazing. I need to check out the beta now.
If I wasn't using Ubuntu, I'd be using Pardus. Or Debian. Or...yeah. :)
217 • @206 (by Anonymous on 2009-06-20 03:30:21 GMT from United States)
I'm seeing things much the way you do. I'd really like to see some consolidation in the numbers of distros,
The top 8 distros aren't the top 8 of a few years ago. Although it shows that some have become more enduring than others.
As slowly as things change even distrowatch seemingly is hopelessly behind updating their site. For example Gentoo is still listed as Major distro and I don't believe it has even been in the top 13 for the past 3 years. How can this be?
The dinosaurs of the Linux distros have got to go. It is time, just let them die and put the efforts into the ones that have raised themselves to the top and stayed there.
218 • VERY OLD computer linux (by RollMeAway on 2009-06-20 04:25:10 GMT from United States)
A bare AS? minimum linux distro.
Resides on two floppies.
Claims to run on an i386 with 16 mb (or 8 mb with swap!)
219 • @217 (by I'm goin' "nuts" over here on 2009-06-20 05:12:38 GMT from United States)
I don't know if consolidation is the answer. But I would like to see at least one distro that can get it right. I am using OpenSuse tonight. I can't even get a movie to play without trying to guess which repository has the "secret" codecs to make Kaffeine work. You want less distros? I can play a movie without even thinking about it with Puppy and the sound usually works right. Now the screen resolution is a nightmare but that's another thing. Why can't they get together and get just ONE right? If this post is messed up it's because I'm using OpenSuse and I just hit the del key and it tried to take a screenshot...WTF?!
220 • linux party (by Tom on 2009-06-20 08:24:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
Doorbell goes and Dan gets it, "Hey, welcome in - kick your shoes off over there and hang your coat up here. There's political intrigue in the kitchen, religious debate in the bedroom, the loo's to the left up there and dancing in the sitting room. Great to see you've brought beers .. " Doorbell goes again, Dan "Hey grab the door please and welcome them in. I'll grab a couple of cold ones for you'se and do the door again while you party."
221 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-20 08:29:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hab, I don't know if you thought about subscribing to any Linux news services, (and in keeping, they are free...) as in news OF Linux, but, many countries and regions of countries are doing their own thing with a distro fine tuned for education (aimed at different age groups), local government, venaculars etc etc.
One caveat tho', and I can't believe it is THE isolated instance, but in the case of Turkey, their government sponsored distro comes under the aegis of their secret squirrels...I sense a certain irony...
And, don't know if you caught it, but "your" government very recently issued an "Official Request for Information (?)" about free software...which is a bit curious 'cos a LOT of your Canadian local authorities whathaveyou use it anyway.
I spoke to my coz in Ottawa about this sort of thing...mind you he is the very voice of doom and gloom on free stuff, and he remarked that "free software" always came with a hefty "service charge"...
222 • Ubuntu/Dan (by Tom on 2009-06-20 08:46:17 GMT from United Kingdom)
It's always good to have someone doing Dan's job at a student party.
Yeh it'd be great if the various multimedia packages could collaborate and force hardware manufacturers into providing adequate support for their stuff. Perhaps it needs a commercial company or few to stand behind branded multimedia packages in the way some stand behind distros such as Fedora and Ubuntu, perhaps hardware manufacturers would respect them in a way they don't respect community projects. What about someone like ZoomPlayer producing a player that people would have to buy? Perhaps Kaffeine (which isn't really viable in my distro) could go commercial? Is this something we would like to see or should we get more active in the existing communities and push manufacturers from there.
Would it be good if all distros could be neatly sorted into families, say about 6 or 8, and the top distro of each family (either the oldest, most popular or most 'vanilla') could then be awarded the title "major" or "top" or "root". What does it mean to be in the same family, do they have more code base in common, work on the same range of hardware, look about the same, operate about the same?
223 • floppy distros (by Tom on 2009-06-20 08:57:18 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thanks :) that gave me this great link!
I quickly looked up the first 10 and found only 2 had apparently dead-links - all the rest got me to home pages or active download pages :)
224 • re#221 (by hab on 2009-06-20 14:28:01 GMT from Canada)
Actually, i hadn't thought of that but it might be an idea. I guess it would provide something a little more concrete on who is doing what to and with whom.
I tend to base my view (at least in part) on what slashdot, osnews lwn and other linux oriented sites publish.
I was (dimly) aware of the Official Request for Information issued by the government of canada. In truth it has very little if any impact on me personally. Mind you to see the gov. actually appear to care what the great unwashed masses want is perhaps a little disquieting.
As to your coz. Well, you can pick your friends, relatives you're stuck with ;-).
He's actually right in a way tho. The hefty service charge doesn't come from wallets, it comes more i think from 'zee little gray cells'.
Anyhow, thank you for your thoughts.
225 • #206 (by RAT on 2009-06-20 18:06:39 GMT from Germany)
I also just had a rewarding experience with Ubuntu. It really is great that there are so many choices. It just seems to be human nature to always want to "snipe" at the top dog. Let's remember that Ubuntu is not a MS company.
On the other hand, there seems to be somewhat of a "looking down the nose" attitude from some of the "purists" when it comes to "user friendliness". It reminds me of the often parodied old man who says to the young person, "New shoes? What do you need new shoes for? Why when I was a kid I walked 200 miles to school in the dead of winter in my bare feet and I liked it!"
226 • SlackWare (by jk on 2009-06-21 01:12:56 GMT from United States)
My cousin and aunt always use Mac, but I want them to try Linux. I want to tell them to get BasicLinux, but it's part of SlackWare. And I heard SlackWare isn't very stable. Do you think I should tell them to get it or not?
227 • Ubuntu (by jk on 2009-06-21 01:51:39 GMT from United States)
I know many people don't agree with me, but I think Ubuntu is better than Fedora and Linux Mint. Linux Mint has loading problems and Fedora has choppy flash videos. The only problem with Ubuntu is the Routine Check of Drives occurs too much and lasts too long, but other than that, I really like it. I hope I get Gentoox for my Xbox. By the way, does anyone know if Gentoox, Xebian, or XFedora works with the Xbox 360?
228 • Stuff (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-21 02:28:50 GMT from United States)
@226: Slackware is crazily stable, but for Linux newbies it's one of the worst you could suggest. No package management, for example, unless you go and find a program to do it for you. Basic Linux is even less easy for newbies, being a very, very old system. Why are you suggesting Basic Linux, if I may ask? Do they have a really old computer that only accepts floppies?
If they're pure newbies, I'd suggest Pardus, Mint, Ubuntu, or Puppy, depending on what they're looking for.
@227: When you format in ext4, the check of drives is actually really fast.
And XMBC is better for Xboxes, as far as I've seen, but it's not all that easy to install unless you have certain games and hardware. Most of the Xbox distros are made for Xbox 1; I cannot recall if the 360 runs Linux yet. If you want Linux on a current-gen console, get a PS3, which Sony has opened at least slightly for developers. Smart move.
@whatever: I'm raking a pee on Fedora 11 right now. The LiveCD installer crashed a few times, but I got it to work and install. Nothing special, but works well and HOLY COW there are 350 MB of updates coming, wow, I wasn't expecting that one. Maybe I'll install Presto and see what happens to that number.
I can't say I can find much different from Ubuntu (aside from the package management system, the harder-to-get-non-free-stuff, and the blue instead of the brown) but that's no knock against it. And I have KMS support on this laptop, so starting the distro up looks heckuva nice. :)
I also tried Debris, which didn't work with my Wi-Fi (which surprised me - I've got the ipw2100 firmware stuff right here, guys!), OpenSUSE, which was very green, slow, and filled with every Mono application known to mankind (which made me chuckle), PCLinuxOS 2009.1, which didn't boot (though 2009.2 is on its way!), and Debian, which bored me because I know it forwards and backwards. It's nice having a day off.
229 • Good points! (by Shawn on 2009-06-21 02:46:11 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the replies. @#208, I noticed that as well, it's although Ubuntu is the "evil" that Linux distributions are looking to kick off of resident hard drives. RAT has a good point as well as to be #1, you have to beat #1 even if they are of the same heritage or lineage. Look at how many distro's are based off of Ubuntu or even Debian for that matter. SimplyMEPIS was originally based off of Debian, switched to Ubuntu, then went back to Debian.
With regard to consolidation, I see both sides of the fence on that issue. On one hand, having too many choices could be a bad thing because it could become overwhelming for a new user to pick something to try and have 10-15 "easy-to-use" distro's to pick from and that person just wants the best one. And the best one is always going to be determined on an individual basis or from a trusted friend or relative's point of view. On the other hand, if Linux did somehow get consolidated, what are the chances that something like Sabayon or Ubuntu would have come along if we stuck to the standard distrubutions such as Mandriva, SuSE and Red Hat not that long ago? I do agree with whoever thinks that there are too many Ubuntu remixes roaming around.
@JK- Slackware is probably one of, if not the most stable Linux distribtutions out there. Maybe try a Wolvix Live CD to see if they like it first, or Vector Linux. Slackware itself isn't a Live CD, it's install only so maybe try one of the two above. Not sure about which Linux distro for Xbox 360, I never got that brave yet. ;)
230 • Thank You! (by jk on 2009-06-21 02:47:48 GMT from United States)
Thanks for telling me all that. I'm sure glad I didn't tell them to get that package. Do you know if DSLinux works well?
231 • re#226&228 (by hab on 2009-06-21 02:58:06 GMT from Canada)
You might want to take a look at lin-x. Could maybe comfort a mac user. Ya know, get them trapped in our snare with a pretty face;). It is here. http://lin-x.info/ Seems to be stable. And hey it's really just linux with a little different makeup and a wig!
I don't know about you but it seems to me that in a lot ways back in the day most installs of most distros on most hardware went down with with a lot less fuss and muss and bother than a goodly chunk of the distros floating around today. Starting about 4 or 5 years ago.
Granted the numbers of distros was far less then, but still. I don't know? Maybe i'm deluding myself! Wouldn't be the first time.
232 • StartCom Linux? (by jk on 2009-06-21 03:05:10 GMT from United States)
Umm... Thank you, hab. Do you know what StartCom Linux is? I heard it was some sort of Hebrew/English business thing. Can you or someone else explain it more?
233 • re#232 (by hab on 2009-06-21 03:19:03 GMT from Canada)
Looks like a fairly standard respin of redhat. Don't know about the business thing. Nothing obvious or leaping out on their page.
234 • @jk (by Nobody Important on 2009-06-21 03:47:19 GMT from United States)
Where are you getting these distributions from? Are you looking at a certain category in Distrowatch?
If you tell us what the Mac users or you want specifically, maybe we can suggest something that works better.
235 • @ jk, demo them (by Tom on 2009-06-21 11:46:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
Most distro can be easily burned onto cd, here's a guide from ubuntu but works about the same with almost every other distro
then put the cd into the cd/dvd-drive and start up the machine, here's help
again from ubuntu but again should be roughly the same in most distros although most just have the LiveCd session as their default without giving a special menu and a title like "Try distro without changes to the machine", usually just wait or press enter to get to a working desktop that we call a "LiveCd session"
It's always a good idea to try a distro this way first just to check how compatible it is with the particular hardware, although often seemingly major problems are something simple to fix. Most distros work really well and easily on most hardware but we all have very unique setups. In Windows their special tweaks are done by Windows certified engineers, before you even see the machine. Linux installs are often done by noobs. So a LiveCd session show you whether you like it and whether the hardware likes it :) I recommend trying quite a few because it's fun :)
Try looking at the front-page of DistroWatch for a list of the top 100 most popular distros
and click on a few to find standardised pages to make it easy to compare any of them with the others. I would recommend Ubuntu to most linux noobs because of the large community that enjoys and is used to dealing with noobs although many other distros are good for both these reasons too. Ubuntu seems to have more books and other help more easily available until the noob gets used to engaging with the on-line community. The issue of stability is not one to really focus on because it's at the expense of 'new and exciting' also there's not many distros that are really unstable, especially compared to a new release of Windows although if you do want to see a system fall over quite a lot then there's even a distro built (as a programmers teaching tool) to do just that ;)
However if stability really is an issue then some distro are famous for being stable, Slackware and Debian spring to mind. As people have said though Slackware doesn't seem to be for inexperienced linux users so try one of the slackware based distros that do make it easy
You'll already notice something great about DistroWatch is the similarity between addresses and hopefully you've found how easy it is to compare these pages with each other. The links to the distros forums is a good way to quickly chec out the community around each distro. My own preference is for Wolvix Hunter 1.1.0 on older machines although it (and the Wolvix betas) are great for getting more speed from top-end machines too, as are many of the smaller distros. For top-end machines i prefer Ubuntu tho, especially for noobs. As people have said Ubuntu is based on Debian but doesn't have stability as one of it's main aims, instead it aims at being ultra-new.
Note that even tho a distro might not be ultra-new it might have more recent versions of applications - this is where Wolvix and others really score as bleeding-edge distros, in the applications. So when you're looking around at which distro you want to use a major point to take into account is what is the distro to be used for? What types of applications? A gaming machine has very different needs from a server and a office machine is different again, even on the same hardware!
I hope this helps rather than baffles! Please let us know what you want from linux at this point and we'll try to give you more focussed direction! Also please let us know where you're finding the distro you mention because there are many distro hoppers in here that don't seem to have tried the ones you mention yet and i can feel them champing at the bit ;)
Good luck and keep up the great posts :)
Welcome to linux :))
236 • @ forest (by Tom on 2009-06-21 11:53:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hey forest, please email me i would really appreciate some non-techie thoughts about DoaS, ok maybe some links to techie stuff as i'm even having trouble with the basics of it all being pretty much a noob still.
Anyone else is fairly welcome too although i don't often reply quickly!
237 • Fedora 12 (by jk on 2009-06-21 15:40:01 GMT from United States)
There are rumours that Fedora 12 is out. Does anyone know if it's true?
238 • @Nobody Important (by jk on 2009-06-21 15:47:18 GMT from United States)
The Mac users want something close to Mac so it is easy to use and figure out. Hab told me to look at lin-x and that seems close to Mac so maybe I will talk to them about that, but if you have any other suggestions, let me know.
239 • themes & de's (by Tom on 2009-06-21 18:38:59 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think Gallipup, a puplet based on Puppy, uses a theme and desktop environment that mimics Mac fairly well, i could be wrong. I'm not hugely keen on puplet's. With most distros it's quite easy to add in a new desktop environment and change themes so it should be possible to make pretty much anything look Mac-ish. Err, sorry i haven't a clue lol
I think that was just a typo, Fedora 11 was released this week and people have been quite excited about it. It's possible that an early alpha release of fedora 12 might be available soon but alphas are what happens before beta testing begins and so it's unlikely to be really usable, it's great if you enjoy testing things early and helping the developers pin down some early problems tho. It's worth giving Fedora11 a try after Ubuntu i reckon. There's this cautionary tale tho
Good luck and have fun :)
240 • Some responses (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-06-21 18:52:33 GMT from United States)
#140: Xtyn wrote: I have to disagree. I think that Apple is worse than Microsoft. Philosophically, Mac os x is in total opposition with Linux.
I have to agree. Please remember that it was Steve Jobs who called all FOSS users "freetards".
On really old hardware: A modern, current Linux kernel will scale down to a 486 with about 32MB of RAM. That includes AMD K5 CPUs which are based on 486 technology. Below that you either don't have X or are forced to run ancient (like greater than 10 year old) software. Yeah, it seemed fine back then but it's a less that pleasant experience now.
Really old hardware and user friendly distros are almost a contradiction in terms. A lot of the stuff that makes distros user friendly is hardware intensive. Again, the best compromise I've seen in this area is Vector Linux Light.
@jk: Damn Small Linux uses really old software and appears to be dead. It isn't terribly user friendly if you want to do more than the basics. If you have at least a 2GB hard drive and 32MBof RAM I'd stick with Vector Linux Light.
Priscilla wrote: Many linux users prefer Windows, it's just that they dare not start a flame war in linux text forums by saying so.
I seriously doubt that. You are actually the first one I've run into. Most users who even try Linux tend to be more educated about computing in general. Otherwise they wouldn't even dare try install an OS. (Recent netbook and other preload buyers may be an exception.) They generally are well aware of the security and performance issues endemic to Windows which is why they come to Linux in the first place. Generally if the stick with Linux they want no part of the issues that frustrated them when running Windows.
I think many linux users are in denial about some of this.
Again, I don't think so. I mainly support mixed environments which is the norm in business today. Many desktop users are unwilling to or afraid to try anything else besides what they know, which is usually Windows. Some who do try Linux give up in frustration because they don't give themselves enough time to learn and adjust. Long time Linux users who think Windows is preferable? Like I said, you're the first and I do real life, face-to-face consulting for a living, including some Windows work.
Having said all of that, I do know people who continue to run Windows because there is some specific app that they like and don't want to replace. I know gamers who continue to run Windows. They have no love for Windows but rather the applications that run on it.
#183: I don't know if the bookstore manager like you was a Linux enthusiast. That may simply have enough customer demand. Generally in large chains like that the manager may have little input. Home office decides what to stock.
#203: I agree with hab that there are only a relatively small number of mainstream distros. In the corporate world it pretty much comes down to Red Hat, SUSE, and Ubuntu right now. If you consider Asia you probably have to add Turbolinux and Red Flag to the list. Mandriva is still huge in Brazil AFAIK. If you add Slackware and Debian since so many distros are derivative of those two we're up to eight really significant distros. Add companies who are successfully selling their distros preloaded (Xandros, gOS, and Linpus) and we are up to 11. ARM based netbooks will likely be a majority for Google Android. That makes an even dozen.
I'm not adding Moblin because a number of distros (UNR, Fedora Mini, SUSE, Linpus) are adding Moblin technology to their distro and I think that is how Moblin will end up on future netbooks and nettops, rather than as a stand alone distro. Ditto HP's Mi interface, which sits on top of an existing distro.
There are a couple of others around the periphery that arguably could be added to the list. Still, when you look at DistroWatch you see lots of respins, localized versions, niche distros, and hobbyist distros. A distro like Greenie is important if you live in Slovakia. Much of the rest of the world probably doesn't know it exists.
#237: LOL. Fedora 11 just released. Fedora 12 is at least six months away. It's amazing what people come up with :)
241 • Fedora Beta (by jk on 2009-06-21 19:04:02 GMT from United States)
Is the beta for Fedora 12 out?
242 • Fedora 12 (by Shawn on 2009-06-21 19:27:20 GMT from United States)
@241- I doubt it, I don't even think a Fedora 12 Alpha is out yet. Fedora 11 was just released June 9th. Maybe by next month an Alpha will be available, but don't count on seeing Beta's or RC's until October or November.
243 • SuSE (by jk on 2009-06-21 19:32:25 GMT from United States)
I'm going to get openSuSE for my computer. Is there any problems I should avoid.
244 • #243: SUSE (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-06-21 20:09:58 GMT from United States)
Just the usual things: SUSE isn't exactly optimized for performance and has a lot of fairly heavy apps and tools. I wouldn't run it on a system with less than 512MB of RAM. If you like KDE4 I'd make the 1GB of RAM for decent performance. OpenSUSE 11.1 has been out long enough that it shouldn't have the problems with the Intel graphics chipsets in the latest X.org. I would check in the SUSE forum to make sure there are no specific issues for your hardware. Otherwise I've always found it to be a very decent distro. Enjoy!
245 • No subject (by forest on 2009-06-21 20:27:47 GMT from United Kingdom)
Caitlyn, having read your take on Priscilla, allegedly female...it occurs to me she/he/bunch of psychology undergrads are doing some work on a thesis of some sort, who knows...who cares?
We get a "sort" of "psycho babble" come on...absolutely nothing wrong really if it helps with some sort of research...trouble is tho'...some folk may decide to come out with all sorts of nonsense in response.
In time Ms P et al will suss it, but why not, it's all good training. LOL
Best of luck anyway Prissy.
246 • Puppy Linux (by jk on 2009-06-21 21:21:26 GMT from United States)
My sister wants to get Puppy Linux, but she has a few questions.
1. Is it a good or bad distribution?
2. Is it advanced or easy to use?
3. Is it fast or slow?
Can someone tell me the answers so I can tell her!?!
247 • 246 • Puppy Linux (by anticapitalista on 2009-06-21 21:31:31 GMT from Greece)
2. easy to use (maybe not as easy to install as some othe dostros though)
248 • openSUSE (by jk on 2009-06-21 21:44:02 GMT from United States)
openSUSE is being downloaded right now on my Linux Mint computer by my dad. He will then burn it to a CD and bring it to this computer. Is there some major problem that no body has told me yet that I should know?
249 • 246 (by Tom on 2009-06-21 21:48:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
1. It's ok, but some of the puplets aren't. It's really for older hardware with very low ram and stuff
2. It's easy but always asks a lot of tricky techie questions as it boots up (from the cd anyway) as long as you don't want to add programs or change the theme or desktop
3 slow from a cd but fast from a hard-drive
Try it as a LiveCd session and you'll see what i mean ;)
250 • 246 (by Tom on 2009-06-21 21:50:00 GMT from United Kingdom)
1. It's ok, but some of the puplets aren't. It's really for older hardware with very low ram and stuff
2. It's easy but always asks a lot of tricky techie questions as it boots up (from the cd anyway) but it gets tough if you want to add programs or change the theme or desktop
3 slow from a cd but fast from a hard-drive
Try it as a LiveCd session and you'll see what i mean ;)
251 • Cd demo (by Tom on 2009-06-21 21:57:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
I recommend getting a stack of really cheap cd's for this. Expensive cd's don't seem to work quite so well for this and dvd's are rubbish (except for some distros that are made to put on dvd). Each distro that interests you download and make a cd of it. Then use the cd to boot up the computer. Don't install the distro yet, just try it from the cd. It's not something that Windows Cds tend to be able to do so here's some advice on how to do this for Ubuntu
Almost every distro has the same feature.
252 • Good News! (by jk on 2009-06-21 21:58:15 GMT from United States)
OK, some of the reviews of openSUSE aren't too great, so my dad said he will give up an older laptop so I can alternate between SUSE and Ubuntu :D
253 • A Couple Things (by jk on 2009-06-21 22:24:39 GMT from United States)
My Ubuntu computer keeps losing connection to my wireless network. Whenever I switch websites, this problem occurs. Is this a Linux problem, a computer problem, or a hard drive problem?
Linux Mint has a nasty Flash problem. I remember when I first got it, I had to re-download it. Just re-download it, don't get angry.
My sister wants to know if there is any major problems with Puppy Linux. Is there any, or is it the "dream distribution"?
254 • re #252 (by hab on 2009-06-21 22:38:15 GMT from Canada)
Dreamlinux here: http://www.dreamlinux.com.br/ works very well. I have it on old laptop and on a spare not so old desktop. Actually reasonably impressive. In my case wireless and wired networking each worked flawlessly on both boxes. YMMV.
255 • @hab (by jk on 2009-06-21 22:41:39 GMT from United States)
That is not really what I meant. I meant is it one of the best types of Linux., but thanks for the link. I will check it out. Does anyone have the most recent version of Puppy Linux? If so, can you tell me about it?
256 • iMagic OS (by IMQ on 2009-06-21 23:20:53 GMT from United States)
"... Upgrades are now completely invisible to the user. Whenever our team hears of or discovers a new upgrade, or a system issue, or just a simple usability enhancement, iMagic OS will automatically install it without hassling you with dialogs or taskbar notices, and without waiting until you are shut down your computer to stall, saving you time and work..."
Let see if I understand it right:
They we can do whatever they want to my box, whenever they want to, and I don't even have a clue about it.
Just like Windows.
Oh yeah, since they can access your box... to do the update any time they want without my knowledge or consent, they can, at their discretion, monitor my activities, so they can *enrich* my experience... like WOW!
Thanks, but NO.
If I want that kind of enrichment, I stay with Windows.
257 • no SUSE :( yes Puppy :) (by jk on 2009-06-22 00:31:49 GMT from United States)
My dad's CD burner ruined the CD so we can't get openSUSE right now. Instead of trying again, we are going to get Puppy Linux. It seems very reliable, stable, easy, and fast. This is my last time asking, is there any problems with Puppy?
258 • Caitlyn @ 240 (by Not Important(2) on 2009-06-22 00:56:43 GMT from Canada)
Quoted by you: "Please remember that it was Steve Jobs who called all FOSS users "freetards". "
A comment referring to "Steve Jobs" brings to mind the co-founder of Apple. Is it this Steve who made this comment??
I seem to remember that it was "Fake Steve Jobs". But then I don't know as much as you do, so I'm probably wrong.
259 • re#257 (by hab on 2009-06-22 01:05:37 GMT from Canada)
The only problem i experienced i with puppy, or indeed linux in general were largely of a PEBKAC nature! ; )
260 • #258: You're right and I was wrong (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-06-22 01:46:35 GMT from United States)
You're right. That was later exposed as "fake" Steve Jobs. I looked it up. So... I was wrong.
Apple still isn't a friend of Linux; probably every bit as bad as Microsoft in that regard.
261 • BSD (by RAT on 2009-06-22 01:46:36 GMT from United States)
I am trying out Dragon Fly BSD. This might be a good one to do a review on. Anyone else tried it?
262 • Steve Jobs (by RAT on 2009-06-22 02:15:10 GMT from United States)
I just heard he has pancreatic cancer.
263 • #261: DragonFly BSD review (by Caitlyn Martin on 2009-06-22 03:54:48 GMT from United States)
RAT wrote: I am trying out Dragon Fly BSD. This might be a good one to do a review on.
I agree and it's on my list. No, I don't know when just yet.
264 • fonts (by Xtyn on 2009-06-22 06:55:15 GMT from Romania)
I find it funny when someone changes the fonts.
265 • Trends (by Sertse on 2009-06-22 08:16:57 GMT from Australia)
I didn't see it coming, so soon at least. Opensuse, which had been 2nd on the DW Charts for quite time time now, is about to be overtaken by Fedora. 9 hits separate it at time of writing.
The slowly but steady movement in Puppy toward overtaking PCLOS continues...another month maybe.
266 • 253 jk Puppy (by Tom on 2009-06-22 09:37:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
Puppy is great as an intro to linux, well worth a try. It's not a "dream" but it's far from "a nightmare". Definitely has to be given a try. Changing between different linux's later is much easier than initially changing to our radically different culture in linux-land ;)
Number of Comments: 266
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