| DistroWatch Weekly
1 • Dillo (by d00m3d on 2008-12-01 10:08:08 GMT from China) |
It is good to know Dillo released a new version but I notice the new version still lacks Java supports.
2 • Dillo (by Douglas E on 2008-12-01 10:25:35 GMT from Germany)
I have been running Dillo 2 for about one month. It is SUPER fast and does a good job with a lot of web pages. I read a review saying that you can't close tabs in it but this is not true, it is just a key stroke.
3 • No subject (by Magnus on 2008-12-01 10:30:56 GMT from Norway)
I am sorry to hear that Adam Williamson lost his job, but I think Mandriva lost more than him. Hopefully you'll get a new job soon!
4 • Distrowatch Weekly (by Tom Powell on 2008-12-01 10:42:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm glad to see that DWW continues to be a quality read on a monday morning. Thank You
5 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-12-01 11:03:28 GMT from Canada)
Adam should ask for a job at canonical , oh wait hold on aminute, damn that instant karma!
Great distrowatch by the way
ps Adam , you should become the com manager of pclinuxos as they desperately need one and are most ex mandriva people
6 • Red Devil (by Greg at 2008-12-01 11:20:21 GMT from Greece)
I had been wondering for a while.. Is Red Devil a Frugalware developer?
7 • Re: 4 • Distrowatch Weekly (by Grobsch on 2008-12-01 11:21:26 GMT from Brazil)
Yes, He is right! Nice work Caitlyn!!
About Slackware 12.2. I do not know if Patrick will release it as soon as you are imaging. I do not know if he will release Slackware with KDE 3.5.10 or he will first move KDE 4 to current/stable repository. Gimp is still 2.4.6 and needs upgrades. In my opinion is difficult we see a new Slackware release till the end of the year.
8 • Adam Williamson (by Pumpino on 2008-12-01 11:29:57 GMT from Australia)
I too am disappointed to hear that Adam Williamson is leaving Mandriva. While not a Mandriva user, I've always admired how he takes the time to read reviews and post comments. His comments are always respectful and helpful. Mandriva is losing its main connection with its users.
9 • Pardus Linux (by Sertse on 2008-12-01 11:31:16 GMT from Australia)
Good on DW for reporting the case study about Pardus. Pardus is an example of what is possible when a Government actively takes an effort in supporting Linux.
(The greatly simplifed version is that the Pardus devs are part of UEKAE, the independent commerical arm of TÜBİTAK one of Turkey's government institutions. One of Pardus' goals is to create a distro that helps Turkey achieve technological independance)
It's also quite a fine distro in its own right, imho one of the best implementations of KDE. Experience is comparable to any of the majors for ease of use, and "polish" and in a world where everything is a derivative, it's not based on everything.
Only flaw is that the community isn't that active if you aren't Turkish...but we do have a small dedicated group at http://worldforum.pardus-linux.nl/index.php , the defacto unofficial forums for the rest of the world.
Try it sometime :)
10 • @5 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-01 11:35:45 GMT from Canada)
My friends at Canonical know that I am perfectly open to any job offer...which comes attached to a business plan, signed by Mark Shuttleworth, indicating a clear path to profitability within three years. That I'm allowed to publish.
Thanks to all for the kind comments.
11 • Rehire Adam Williamson!!! SIGN UP THE PETITION!! (by killer1987 on 2008-12-01 11:46:50 GMT from Italy)
do you want to give a help to Adam and to the whole mandriva's community? Sign up the petition:
12 • Mandriva and Adam Williamson (by eselma on 2008-12-01 12:07:30 GMT from Spain)
I am sorry to see that a friendly and valuable guy as Adam Williamson goes from Mandriva.
But the Mandriva Community losses more than an employee. Seems that MDV now is focused to corporate customer and the community forgoten once more. Enough is enough. By now, Mandy (I was using it from 1999) is erased from my HD and replaced by Mepis.
13 • Mandriva's lost (by cuajo on 2008-12-01 13:11:45 GMT from United States)
I left Mandrake years ago because they let Civilme go. Now they let yet another valuable asset in Adam go.
I don't understand why they always let the one person go that brings in and keeps the English speaking customers with Mandriva.
I hope that Adam gets a job with another Linux Distro. I found him essential in the Mandriva forums.
I am a Power Pack customer and I will be once again switching from Mandriva to another distro. Probably Mepis for my everyday PC. Nothing is moving Slackware from my servers!
14 • Mandriva's loss (by Zac on 2008-12-01 13:14:05 GMT from Australia)
Dissappointed to see Adam go. Even though I've tried it, I didn't use Mandriva, but I know it's a good OS and the people associated with it put alot of effort in. I hope Mark offers you a job, you have great skills.
15 • Adam (by SysAdmin on 2008-12-01 13:28:33 GMT from United States)
Sorry to see you go man. You are the main reason i started using Mandriva. I wish you well and hope you find work soon. I think you would be a great addition to PCLINUXOS and I am sure Tex would be happy to have you.
16 • Data mining (by anon on 2008-12-01 13:28:54 GMT from Norway)
I was sad to have another prejudice confirmed upon hearing of the plight of Adam Williamson and his colleagues. How disingenious can you get?
Thank you, Adam, for all the guidance and helpful tips!
17 • Re. Red Devil (by Steven Lawson on 2008-12-01 13:34:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
No, I'm not a Frugalware developer - I'm not that clever.
I'm just a regular Joe, amateur home Linux user.
I try to write my blog as honestly as possible: When something's good, I say so, when something's bad or doesn't work, I say so and explain why (having also taken whatever steps I can to try to work out why it's not working via forums/web searches etc).
I'm constantly aware that the stuff I write about is produced by people with far more knowledge and computing ability than me.
Hope that helps clear up the confusion.
Red Devil (PS - the Red Devil comes from my lifelong support of Manchester United and is not, as some have assumed, a reference to any political leanings!)
18 • plan 9 (by greenpossum on 2008-12-01 13:47:06 GMT from Australia)
This should be interesting, I look forward to trying it again, if only to get some new ideas. I liked the uniformity of the file model. My main complaint with Plan 9 is that it was quite austere as a computing environment. But perhaps it might be the thing for limited resource platforms. Anyway more fun is good.
19 • Adam and stuff (by davemc on 2008-12-01 14:28:32 GMT from United States)
I see Mandriva's back at it again eh?.. Canning Adam is certainly another really stupid decision in a long line of them for that company and it just adds credence to what most in the FLOSS community believe is their hallmark. And some wonder why Mandriva cant ever get within striking distance of Ubuntu? Nothing really wrong with that distro per say, except that they have an absolutely terrible track record when it comes to things like loyalty. That's kind of a BIG thing when it comes to the FOSS community, who tends to never forget past transgressions. I guess it proves a point I have always believed to be true - Stupid is as stupid does. It also begs the question - Why would anyone in the FOSS world want to be associated with a company who does such things to good people and who have been major players in getting whatever success it ever earned?
20 • #10 Dillo (by anticapitalista on 2008-12-01 14:47:52 GMT from Greece)
Dillo is a lot faster than hv3 on low spec boxes.
Nice to see Dillo getting a donation and development is continuing.
Looking forward to Dillo 3!
21 • Mandriva to Mepis (by Todd on 2008-12-01 15:10:52 GMT from United States)
"Mandy (I was using it from 1999) is erased from my HD and replaced by Mepis."
Good move. :)
Best community in Linux world is Mepis Lovers community in my opinion.
Grand distro as well.
22 • Mandriva (by Dick Cheney on 2008-12-01 15:46:37 GMT from United States)
I hate to say it, but I think I see a return to the Mandriva of 2005/2006. The last release just didn't work very well for me. I have seen reports from others of either going back or changing distros.
Letting Adam go brings up another important question: who will do what he was doing? This signals that Mandriva is largely abandoning the desktop market. I think that's a mistake. The desktop and server go together.
Things must be pretty ugly for that company right now. It's too bad. Yet I already brought up in this very comments section that I didn't understand Mandriva's business model. I know Adam has said that Canonical doesn't have a sustainable business model, but neither does Mandriva.
Keep in mind that Microsoft doesn't compete in this arena either. They basically get a tax on all new machines sold, with one copy of their increasingly lower-end and uncompetitive OS. The vast majority of desktop users purchase Windows and nothing more from Microsoft. Their support comes from their experience and the experience of those around them. Selling support and other stuff to desktop users is unlikely to ever be a profitable niche.
23 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-12-01 15:58:21 GMT from China)
When i first came to mandriva i asked a really stupid question (i didnt know shit about rpm based distros at this time) And Adam helped me alot.. He helped very much people ALOT this people tell other people which distro they should try when they try linux. So i guess adams job was a more then a forum monkey he was also Sales and PR in one person. The decision from the new CEO was not really the best one. I just dont hope mandriva will stop evolution now only because of the bad financial situation.
Pretty bad he goes. I wish he find a good home.
And if u are reading i guess Sun Microsystems could use some community stars (no mandriva pun intended) they are anyway just one mail away.
I REALLY like dillo it is after links the most importend web browser. i had to fall back to dillo & links more then one time. i hope the next project that get support is links http://links.sourceforge.net/
24 • Adam Williamson (by Gary D Olson at 2008-12-01 16:02:57 GMT from United States)
Thank you for helping so many people including me to better understand Mandriva and Linux. To me, you were the "face" of Mandriva, and were without equal not just with regard to Linux distributions, but any product! Clearly, most everyone is getting hammered by this economic nightmare - even you - but you are a very special person and I know you will land on your feet. I'm also convinced that you'll end up with a better gig when the pendulum swings back the other way and this economic crisis is over. But you're a smart guy and probably know this.
25 • Mandriva support (by David Smith on 2008-12-01 17:04:50 GMT from Canada)
Mandriva's situation highlights the situation for all the companies that are seeking to monetize their involvement in developing free linux desktop distributions.
These companies, all of them, are trying to find a sustainable business model.
The problem is, their product is free. It is paid support subscriptions from which they hope to draw income and (eventually) profits. If they give the support away too, where exactly does that leave them?
This will be a test for the Mandriva community to fill the gaps left by removing one paid person from the support forum. I understand the person in question acted as a kind of ambassador. A business decision was made, perhaps it was the wrong one, but I'm not privy to the financials.
I'm quite impressed by the free Mandriva distribution (I have both 2008.1, and 2009 installed to hdd), it mostly just works, and I don't expect a paid support person to be available to help me out with it. Sure, it would be nice...
26 • FEDORA10 vs Ubuntu 8.10 (by The Maf on 2008-12-01 17:11:02 GMT from Italy)
I must say that I tried both distributions as live CD on the same desktop (Dell Optiplex) and the difference is sharp at least at this level. Fedora was really slow while Ubuntu was very responsive. I made basic things such exploring file system, browsing with firefox and playing with gnome preferences. Both OS were in the x86-64 version. Maybe they can perform the same at a deeper look, but also the first impression can be important...
27 • Recession & FOSS (by Sam Avery-Quinn on 2008-12-01 17:12:37 GMT from United States)
It is unfortunate to hear of Adam Williamson's contract termination. It seems a very short-term basal-brain reaction by Mandriva (ie. fear of not surviving the short-term then neglects to think about how to best position the company for economic recovery). Perhaps Ford or GM could buyout Mandriva - their corporate cultures seem a nice fit.
Unfortunately I expect many more stories like Mr. Williamson's to populate Linux news over the next 12 to (gasp!) 36 months. And for every Adam Williamson there will be a hundred more certified Linux professionals out-of-work. There are, however, two possible silver linings I can see in this: 1. This presents a fresh opportunity for Linux professionals to pick up an entrepreneurial spirit, get creative and build new business services emphasizing the lower cost of FOSS perhaps in areas *other* than corporate IT networks. 2. Turn to public entities like schools and municipal governments (at least in the US) which are currently shaky and will only get worse over the next fiscal year in which reduced government property and sales tax revenues take bigger and bigger and bigger chunks out of their budgets -- FOSS would be an amazingly attractive alternative for these institutions, particularly when the management choice becomes cutting IT infrastructure or cutting personnel.
28 • Adam Williamson + Mandriva (by Justin Whitaker on 2008-12-01 17:15:10 GMT from United States)
Just another boneheaded move by Mandriva, no? Sometimes, I just wonder what the suits at Mandriva is thinking. First Gael, now Adam.
Hiring Adam went a long way towards smoothing over the Mandriva Club debacle.
He served as not just an ambassador for Mandriva, but for Linux as a whole. That's not something you can really put a revenue number around, but you should realize that that is an important asset, and figure out a way to keep it.
Of course, this could also be a sign that Mandriva might be done for good this round. Haven't seen the financials.
Here's hoping Adam gets hired somewhere where they recognize his value.
29 • LXDE (by michael j King on 2008-12-01 17:45:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
I would like to put forward LXDE for an upcoming Distrowatch Donation,
This fast desktop that is brilliant for older systems seems to be gaining ground, its now included along the main desktop in Fedora, and Mandriva(its also on the new mandriva netbooks).
(to have the complete desktop setup in ubuntu/debian based distros just "sudo apt-get install lxde" and restart the session.. )
30 • Adam Williamson (by Sankaran on 2008-12-01 17:58:52 GMT from India)
Adam Williamson is a golden egg laying hen for Mandriva. And ...
It will be interesting if Adam joins Canonical
31 • Thank you Adam Williamson (by Gigi on 2008-12-01 18:04:11 GMT from India)
Thank you Adam for all the great work you have done.
Signed the petition already. The next news today is that Oden has also been fired from Mandriva. He is a long time Mandriva developer and maintains 1200+ source rpms including LAMP. Now if Mandriva is trying to concentrate on the server market instead of the desktop, why are they firing the LAMP developers/maintainers? Makes little sense to me. Besides, to concentrate on the enterprise market, they are sure going to need someone like Adam Williamson who can interact and work with people from different backgrounds.
on mandriva, you can do "urpmi task-lxde"
32 • Great DWW! (by dan macdonald at 2008-12-01 18:08:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
That was a very interesting, well wrote DWW - well done Caitlin (wah? a GIRL takes over as DWW ed!?! ;)! I'm very happy to see DWW lives on. Have you officially took over DWW duties from Ladislav now?
Like everyone else here - I cannot believe Mandriva could fire Adam of all people- just how dumb is that? I was really impressed with 2008.0 but I've wrote them off for good now. Vile behaviour!
Glendix sounds fascinating and it was great to read about the new LFS release- I've been meaning to get round to doing an LFS install to hone my geekery so I might try that over Chrimbo maybe- maybe I'll be doing it on my Pandora if its arived by then?!? Anyone else on here got themselves a Pandora lined up?
Best distro news I've had recently is I discovered that wicd is in jaunty repos!!! Woop!
I've got my fingers crossed for KDEnlive 0.7.x, LMMS 0.4.x and winff all making it into Jaunty as together they herald the dawn of easy and powerful multimedia creation under Linux.
33 • Is linux a good business? (by MacLone on 2008-12-01 18:25:53 GMT from Mexico)
Well, seeing Mandriva struggle with financial stuff and cutting jobs makes me think if Linux has been a business or just a community spare time project. I think linux began as a community free project and turned to be a business without much success. Maybe Novel and Red hat makes some money from it but Linux is not the kind of product you should expect big profits from it.
34 • CrunchBang Linux 8.10.01 (by Jason on 2008-12-01 18:27:46 GMT from United States)
Ya its a bang and a crunch. OpenBox with Ubuntu 8.10, fast, quick, easy. They really took OpenBox and tried to make it 100% in Ubuntu. OpenBox is confusion to learn and set up but they managed to do it flawlessly. I would stick with its 8.04 because of all the bugs that followed it to 8.10.
35 • openSUSE (by Duhnonymous on 2008-12-01 18:30:23 GMT from United States)
It's very encouraging to see that they did away with the EULA. It would be even more encouraging if Novell had a plan to do away with involvement with Microsoft.
36 • HV3 Webrowser (by PastorEd at 2008-12-01 19:07:16 GMT from United States)
Just thought I'd add a comment -
I use HV3 all the time as my go-to "fast" browser. It's my internal HTML reader, and is so much faster than anything else that renders CSS. If it looks good in HV3, it's going to look good anywhere.
37 • @20 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-01 19:22:54 GMT from Canada)
"Dillo is a lot faster than hv3 on low spec boxes."
I see, I can certainly believe it (I don't have any low spec boxes here to test :>). fltk generally is a bit quicker than Tk. The difference in rendering capability is considerable, though.
38 • Mr. Williamson (by Shawn on 2008-12-01 19:23:31 GMT from United States)
I was mad when Mandriva let go of Gael Duval. Time passed and I started using Mandriva again. Now with this news, here we go full circle. I think it's ironic that the product is better than the company; it usually goes the other way around. I've seen Adam's posting throughout various websites and blogs, he's always been the consummate professional and I know as well as he does that Mandriva isn't the only fish in the sea. Things happen for a reason and with Adam's professionalism and passion for Linux, it's only fitting that he go to Ubuntu, Fedora or even openSUSE where he can continue to showcase his abilities.
One company's loss is another's gain.
39 • Thanks for the kind words; a few responses (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-01 19:32:02 GMT from United States)
Thanks to everyone for the kind words about DWW this week. Nice to see lots of different topics from DWW being discussed, too.
#32- Chris Smart will take over as DWW editor in two weeks. I'm just a fill-in writer for a total of three weeks and then whenever Chris and Ladislav need me. What's wrong with a woman writing about Linux for DWW? I thought Susan Linton did a great job when she filled in and she does a fantastic job with her tuxmachines.org news site.
Mandriva (and Mandrake before that) was always the distro I recommended to newcomers. I always felt it was user friendly, at least on par with Ubuntu in that respect, and tended to have fewer bugs. The community support is always solid. Adam Williamson's stewardship of their forum was outstanding as were his PR efforts. I feel confident he'll land on his feet. Good people almost always do.
I've used both HV3 and Dillo on my older hardware. Dillo is a wee bit faster but HV3 supports things Dillo doesn't support. Both are excellent and both deserve support. I do think Ladislav made a good choice in Dillo this month.
#27 hit the nail on the head with his post. As a Red Hat certified entrepreneur all I can say is that starting your own *nix based business isn't easy. It takes lots of hard work especially in this economy. OTOH, companies are looking to save money. The key is to convince businesses in your area that FLOSS software, including Linux, can do that for them.
40 • Great issue (by Jamie on 2008-12-01 19:33:13 GMT from United States)
Thanks for continuing the fine tradition of authoritative, balanced, interesting news on the linux front.
41 • Fedora speed, Slackware, etc. (by 1369ic on 2008-12-01 20:11:56 GMT from United States)
I installed several distros on my 1.6 Ghz Centrino laptop in the last week. I'd borked the installation of Arch I had running and used it as an opportunity to check out a few distros. After running Arch and going through Slackware, AntiX, Zenwalk and a few others Fedora was a trial, speed-wise. Ubuntu wasn't zippy by any stretch, but Fedora was, let's say, deliberate. I'm not Fedora-savvy, so it may have been my ignorance, but it certainly seemed slower than Ubuntu, Mandriva and Mepis (yeah, I had a lot of time on my hands).
That's why I'm looking forward to Slackware 12.2. I run Slack on the main partition of my desktop box and ended up with it on the laptop. I think I'm going to keep it that way for ease of administration, though Arch and AntiX both run beautifully on both machines, too.
42 • Lapis Linux from Turkey (by Dr.Saleem Khan on 2008-12-01 20:12:31 GMT from Pakistan)
Read about Pardus Linux from Turkey on today`s DW and wanted to say that although I have used it since version 1.0 but somehow it was never distro I would use for longer time since it have one short coming that it can not be remastered from an installed system.
Since it comes to the support of Turkish Govt. for Pardus Linux, there is another Distribution from Trurkey which is in DW waiting list but the developer of Lapis Linux is doing a wonderful job without any monetary support as far as I know . It is a pure work from Erkan Kaplan basing Lapis Linux on PCLInuxOS with all his devotion.
He released a KDE4 version of Lapis Linux today and I wrote a post about it on my blog
I just want that Erkan Kaplan work needs little appreciation from everyone.
43 • dillhole... (by klhrevolutionist on 2008-12-01 21:14:03 GMT from United States)
There are plenty of browsers that deserve the donation more than dillo. I think netsurf, hv3 or even midori shows signs of being the ideal replacment for those used to using dillo. There are plenty of text based browsers that perform plenty better than dillo as well.
44 • Mandriva reminds me... (by Davey on 2008-12-01 21:53:26 GMT from United States)
Seeing the news about the firing of Adam and other good people at Mandriva brought on a flashback to a bit of ancient history: the pattern at Commodore/Amiga. The Amiga, like Mandriva OS, was great technology, and the company had some outstanding engineers and developers. All that was for nought, however, because excellent products and innovative developers were not enough to counterbalance the idiocy of the top management, which managed to make the wrong move every single time. So the Amiga died, and so did the company. Looks like Mandriva is following an eerily parallel arc. What a shame.
45 • @44 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-01 22:21:13 GMT from Denmark)
46 • @7 (by JK Wood on 2008-12-01 23:02:56 GMT from United States)
Howdy Grobsch! Long time no see. =)
The vibe I'm getting is that Pat would like to see KDE 4.2 come out good and proper before moving to it. I don't think we'll be seeing the move to KDE 4 until after 12.2, although the possibility certainly exists.
47 • Thanks.. (by KiM on 2008-12-01 23:03:26 GMT from Egypt)
as usual monday is always a happy day for reading linux news..
and although we will miss Ladislav but Caitlyn proved that the high quality of DWW will be insured..
Thanks for both of u..
48 • Pardus link correction (by Sertse on 2008-12-01 23:22:40 GMT from Australia)
I think the link should be changed to http://www.osor.eu/case_studies/a-new-kid-on-the-block-the-turkish-pardus-linux-distribution
Its one linked by DW currently is the summarised version. This one is the full article..some pointed are more detailed. etc
On other issues: Agree with everyon about Mandriva... good luck.
I'm typing this from hv3... rendering is really nice. I could see my self using it often.
49 • @43 (by dooooo on 2008-12-01 23:54:06 GMT from Jordan)
The git versions of Midori & Webkit are really great . I use midori when I'm not using opera .
50 • @43 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-02 00:10:28 GMT from Canada)
Midori is great (I package it and Webkit for MDV), but it's much heavier than hv3 - never mind Dillo - just because it uses GTK+ 2 (not a light toolkit) and Webkit (which is lighter than Gecko, sure, but a lot heavier than tkhtml or whatever the heck Dillo uses). Midori uses 70MB, on my system, to open and load a basic site. hv3 uses 20MB, and Dillo uses less than that.
51 • #43 lightweight browsers (by anticapitalista on 2008-12-02 00:11:35 GMT from Greece)
I have tried netsurf, hv3 and midori, and while I agree that they are very promising, they are still heavier than Dillo. Sure they can do a lot more than Dillo, but at the moment I think they are not quite there yet, and yes a donation in the future would sure help the projects develop.
hv3 was included on antiX-Spartacus and midori is included on antiX-M8-base1 (test version) as a replacement for iceweasel, but all antiX releases have Dillo, not just for surfing, but for opening downloaded html files.
52 • Sorry to hear about Mandriva's redundancies (by rich on 2008-12-02 00:16:50 GMT from United States)
I've run across Adam's helpful posts a lot over at eeeuser.com and it was his presence there that was leaning me toward blowing off the default xandros and trying mandriva instead. Now I'm not so sure. Best luck I've had so far with a non-installed distro on that(more my own limitations than that of any of the ones I've tried I'm sure) is Slax, so I may lean toaward trying full slackware on it instead. or just give in and go *buntu.
Good luck to Adam where ever he lands.
Also glad to see Dillo get some support. I've always been intrigued by it and try it now and again.
53 • Novell (by zak on 2008-12-02 00:18:15 GMT from United States)
I think that Novell made a smart decision with the EULA. While I was never bothered about it myself, this shows that Novell is in fact listening to the community. Personally, this current economic crisis makes me feel better about my choice of openSUSE; since Novell is in fact able to generate revenue from it's sponsorship of openSUSE (via it's own enterprise SUSE products), it is a much better situation than Canonical, which is playing a great Santa Claus give away game right now, but that can't go on forever. I also think that it just "feels right" that openSUSE is doing it's sponsor company real "good"; that Novell is able to profit from the community's work.
Despite the purists; complaints, I really think this is the only way for large scale open source initiatives to really hold their ground in the real world; to be sponsored by parent companies that can package and customize the communities work into enterprise products that can generate revenue, some of which the sponsor returns to the community to continue the project. Otherwise, open source projects are destined to come and go as interest arises, and will always remain nothing more that an interesting phenomenon on the outskirts of "real software". There maybe exceptions (Apache comes to mind, but it is in a very different field than an operation system), but the fact is, people need at least a little money, and money has to come from somewhere.
Despite it's faults, I feel good about supporting Novell. Like politicians, they may never do all they said they'd do, and they may not do it in the way I'd like, but hey, they have choice too. They chose to support what I feel is one of the best flavours of Linux available (and have been very generous with it at that), and I hope that that choice pays off for them big time!
Great issue, Caitlyn! Hope all's well with Ladislav!
54 • #51 More info hv3 (by anticapitalista on 2008-12-02 00:24:39 GMT from Greece)
I just downloaded the latest hv3 browser and my quick impression is that, yes it is very good. It has certainly improved since I last used it (no bookmarks then).
Good luck to the developers. Linux needs a very lite, fast and 'modern' browser that displays css and plays video streams ie you tube.
55 • End of Mandriva (by Anonymous Coward on 2008-12-02 03:11:22 GMT from United States)
Adam Williamson WAS Mandriva! Damn! I watched them botch things up with Mandrake, and now the Mandriva ship goes down. Oh well, time to learn join the crowd and learn Ubuntu. Urpmi, oops, apt-get ...
Thanks for all the help over the years Adam. You were the best moderator I ever ran into!
56 • RE: # 5, # 15 and PCLOS (by johncoom on 2008-12-02 03:45:28 GMT from Australia)
About Adam Williamson perhaps getting involved and participating in PCLinuxOS
Well NOT if he is looking for a paying job, no one gets payed, not even Texstar.
Every one volunteers their time, if Adam wants to do that I am sure he would be welcome.
BUT if he (or others) has not volunteered their time by now, they are never going to do it.
57 • dillo and hv3 (by Fractalguy on 2008-12-02 06:04:05 GMT from United States)
I'm trying hv3 as I type here on DW on this ASUS eee 701. Saw it on Gary Richmond's article. The ASUS has limited storage and RAM so installing other software on it is a problem. I've basically been reduced to running the stock apps.
However, here is hv3 claiming to not have dependencies and just needing unpacking to run. I couldn't resist, especially if it means a very light browser. It is up and running with three tabs open: DW, /. and a special web page on my machine for viewing stock charts. The stock chart page uses EMCAscript and works fine.
I think hv3 is a keeper. Only one more test: see if I can post on DW.
58 • Re:Re: 17 Red Devil (by Greg at 2008-12-02 06:26:03 GMT from Greece)
Good for you mate.
I wont comment on mandriva cause i dont care.
But Ubuntu >> Fedora
Although adding a Fedora-like package selection (and other Debian deritives and not only) would be a major plus.
After all its optional.
59 • @56 and @57 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-02 07:13:39 GMT from Canada)
56 - if I still have time and freedom to work on a volunteer basis, it'll be on Mandriva.
57 - hv3 does depend on some things: tcl, tk, tkhtml, tkimg, and tclsee. i'm guessing the standalone version has them all compiled in statically.
60 • You guys are great - both Distrowatch and the commentaryeers!! (by Bob on 2008-12-02 10:05:37 GMT from New Zealand)
I've chucked out floppies with copies of early Linuxes on them recently that had died from old age ( the floppies that is - almost all unreadable). Most of the Linuxes had been installed, communed with - to get monitors, modems and printers going (bloody hardware drivers) , before tempted by a newer version or distro.
So different today, with flawless installs becoming the norm, even scanners behaving themselves. I appreciate the huge improvements over the last ten years.
The current major distros are starships in comparison with the early rowboats, enjoyable though the rowing was. For the last few years I have come to this site regularly to keep in touch with distro news.
It was only about a year or so ago Ladislav wondered publicly whether his efforts were worth the candle - because the feedback was light and often negative at the time. I was as guilty as anyone of passive enjoyment of his efforts and felt much better after replying supportively. I was pleased a lot of other people did too. Now I'm owing you guys another conscience call.
So thanks, the news, the stats and the conversations help me feel I better informed and I'm sure you are really valuable to the developers and distributors too.
I think the sense of community kept vibrant by good quality sites, and particularly this one, been a useful factor in the rapid development of the distros, because the conversations about what has been done, what can be done and what would be good to do, all enrich the ideas pool that the druids and wizards feed in.
I don't know whether the metaphors are becoming excessively mixed , but I feel I should get my coat now,
61 • Dillo 1 VS Dillo 2 (by Douglas E on 2008-12-02 11:47:43 GMT from Germany)
I have read a lot of comments hear about Dillo VS whatever. The problem with this is that no one is saying Dillo one or Dillo two. They are very different beasts. One used GTK1. Two is much faster and It uses FLTK2, the Fast Light Toolkit that is statically-linked by default. It also has a cool bug meter and some nice add ons that you most likely should use.
Douglas E Knapp
62 • RE: 46 (by Grobsch on 2008-12-02 12:02:41 GMT from Brazil)
"Howdy Grobsch! Long time no see. =)"
Yes JK Wood!! Register yourself in our brand new website to talk more about our projects...
63 • Adam Williamson, best wishes to you. (by Andrew P. Dickerson on 2008-12-02 15:00:05 GMT from United States)
Hello Adam, well let me say I sorry to hear about your departure. I just like to say that you are a brilliant talent in the Linux community. It certainly appears that you given your all to the Mandriva people only to end up like this, how sad.
You are well respected and a hardworking individual from what I saw in the Mandriva forums and countless blogs worldwide you have posted. You fix numerous bugs in Mandriva Linux and for that I am sure many users of Mandriva are truly grateful for all of your efforts.
Also, thanks for help keeping my facts inline, it was never intentional maybe out of frustration. But it seems I am extremely frustrated with Ubuntu 8.10 now, the Nvidia video driver doesn't work very well and I cannot use 3D on Ibex. Well anyway, good luck Adam, I hope you consider making a community spin distro of your own in your free time, because I think you'll get plenty of Paypal support if you do and I'm sure we'll all get a great distro.
64 • Grobsh and JKWood, why not post back at Slax forum (by tonio on 2008-12-02 15:35:49 GMT from United States)
Grobsh and JKWood nice to hear you at least here in Distrowatch :)
Miss both of you guys over at slax forum
65 • Adam Williamson (by Bryan Siegfried on 2008-12-02 18:50:55 GMT from United States)
Adam was certainly one of the best moderators anywhere and his advice was always helpful. Not only did he represent Mandriva well, but he did it without denigrating the many other great products out there. It was a testament to his demeanor and good judgement. While Mandriva may not lose any technical prowess, it will lose certainly its clearest proponent in the English-speaking world.
I hope that Adam does well wherever he ends up. I would like to see him working with Canonical, too, but only in my own self-interest. I am certain he would add a great deal to their community relations with him on board!
66 • great issue, caitlyn! (by phillytim on 2008-12-02 20:39:07 GMT from United States)
thanks for your hard work reporting all this information, caitlyn!
67 • Adam Williamson (by Anonymous on 2008-12-02 22:19:38 GMT from Germany)
Adam Williamson, you are a god among forum moderators. Since we have Ubuntu Christian Edition, Muslim Edition and Satanic Edition I would make an Ubuntu Adam Edition with your picture on the wallpaper but I know you wouldn't like it :)
68 • 67 continued (by Anonymous on 2008-12-02 22:22:00 GMT from Germany)
I mean you wouldn't like the Ubuntu thing, I was not talking about your picture. And God was supposed to be with capital G.
69 • In the business world (where there is some employee unionism).... (by nature of the beast on 2008-12-03 05:06:59 GMT from Australia)
..."contractors" will be the first to face the axe. Maybe this is just what happened at Mandriva and their cost-cutting attempts?
Sorry to hear about job loss/es at Mandriva but it happens all the time all over the world.
Life goes on!
70 • Slackware 12.2 RC1 (by Gigi on 2008-12-03 09:36:44 GMT from Singapore)
As Slackware 12.2 is only a 0.1 version bump, we're trying to focus on making it better without causing instability or losing compatibility with Slackware 12.1 wherever possible.
Invasive changes like the new X (that will require changes to
xorg.conf) and merging KDE4 should probably wait for Slackware 13.0. We will call this batch Slackware 12.2 release candidate one. :-)
Slackware to go for KDE4 in 13? Sounds ominous to me...
71 • Adam "Drake" (by capricornus on 2008-12-03 13:34:19 GMT from Belgium)
Who am I to comment on God alias Williamson? Now he' s a free(d) man, I would comment on Mandriva that on my pc's never did what I really wanted (like a VLC just playing internet radio without hassle) and I would like some more manpower on distro's like PClinuxOS GNOME, an unknown jewel in the Drake empire. It is a distro that does the things I like and want on every pc, even sticky AMD64DC's. But the forum is colonized by rude nerds and alike mod's. So, Adam, there IS a future for you, and you will stay very much appreciated.
72 • @ Adam (by Anonymous on 2008-12-03 19:49:54 GMT from United States)
56 - if I still have time and freedom to work on a volunteer basis, it'll be on Mandriva.
And that is why management types will never learn. Why pay anyone when they'll work for free? Why should developers be able to pay their bills?
73 • @72 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-12-04 00:00:44 GMT from Canada)
Mandriva, the distribution, not Mandriva, the company.
74 • Censorship on DistroWatch??? (by Knarfonicus on 2008-12-04 01:12:26 GMT from Australia)
Hi all. I have something to say, but I don't want to offend anyone, especially because I love this site. I pretty much come here for all my Linux needs, which is what this is all about: I come here for LINUX, not censorship. What am I talking about?? Ubuntu Satanic Edition! When I found out is is no longer just a bunch of themes but now a full-blown distro, I wondered why I hadn't seen it here. After all, I come here to see all the latest distros. I had a sneaking suspicion I knew why, but admit I was embarrassed to even consider the possibility that it had to do with censorship... but reading about it at the USE site confirmed this is what is in fact happening!
Apparently, even though everyone with half a brain knows this is just a joke for those who happen to have a sense of humour (you know, that thing GOD gave us!?), DistroWatch sees this as going "over the line". OK, now I know that while many prominent priests now will tell you that Satan is a construct (watch the documentary "The History Of The Devil" to see how The Satan ["The Accuser"] went from being God's right-hand avenging angel to the beast he now is seen as), there are still many people out there terrified of this mythical figure - but they are also offended and outraged by porn, and I don't see you only listing distros that have parental controls for web surfing enabled by default.
If you want to change the slogan to "Distros for Christians and the Religiously-Sensitive", then go ahead... otherwise, please get on with listing ALL distros that come your way, no matter your personal social or religious beliefs.
As I said, not only was I stunned by this, I actually felt embarrassed!
75 • @74 - Cencorship not belonging on DW (by Miq on 2008-12-04 08:32:38 GMT from Sweden)
Read comment #74 and went over to UbuntoSE's site to check things out, and yeah, it seems Ubuntu Satanic Edition is blacklisted from DW because Ladislav dislikes the name. This is not acceptable, I visit DW to get neutral information about ALL distros. If some are CENSORED from here this site does not fulfil its purpose. Now, I am not an Ubuntu user, in fact, I dislike Ubuntu, but this is beside the point.
First of all, UbuntuSE can't be banned because of it's religious affiliation, satanism is an established and acknowledged religion f.i. by the US Army iirc. Would Ubuntu Buddhist Edition be banned? Norse Edition? Wiccan Edition?
Secondly, the reference to the Christian Devil can't be reason enough. It is a very widespread iconography today having lost almost all of its traditional connotations. Also, FreeBSD uses the Devil as a symbol and is prominently displayed on DW's front page when updated.
Get a grip, whoever adds distros to the database, UbuntuSE seems much more solid, viable and established than many of the nighfly distros added all the time!
76 • re 74 & 75 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 14:28:38 GMT from Germany)
Ladislav has a twisted way of being balanced. On one hand he accepts distros like Ubuntu Christian Edition and Ubuntu Muslim Edition but he bans Ubuntu Satanic Edition.
Another example: You can spread as many lies as you want about any distro and you'll not be censored but when you speak about true stuff like Novell's patents deal with Microsoft then you get banned.
77 • #74-76 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 14:34:54 GMT from United States)
Not listing the satanic edition isn't censorship...it is good taste. Something that appears to be unfamiliar to you. If you are so enamored with satan and evil, start your own site to promote it....might want to add a kddy porn edition and torture and flaying edition too. Or really show how you hold the moral ground and do a scat eating edtion. Get a life.
78 • @ 74 -77 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 14:49:35 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, you don't really know where you'll end up after the end of your current life. You may want to be friends with Satan. You never know.
79 • @74 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 15:01:12 GMT from United States)
I have to say I agree with you. I do not see how one can justify accepting ubuntu christian edition and muslim edition, but not the satanic edition. Though I personally feel nauseous sometimes with all the ubuntu clones. Too bad someone already owns the ubuntuwatch domain.
80 • "anonymous" "satan" etc.. (by Jerry B. on 2008-12-04 15:01:52 GMT from United States)
LOL.. great comedy here in the past few weeks.
Let's change this from "Distrowatch" to "Mental Health Watch in the Linux Community."
That'll get the page hits going! :O)
81 • So its ok.. (by warlock on 2008-12-04 15:16:21 GMT from United States)
To have a christian edition, jewish, muslim and every other religion, but not a satanic one? It becomes extremely evident that the religious intolerance is in full force here at DW. As long as nobody is hurt by your religion does it really matter what/how you worship? Careful how you answer, religious extremists are called terrorists.
I call on DW to be natural.. Include it, or remove ALL religious versions.
82 • #79 & #81 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 15:28:18 GMT from United States)
Must be a full moon...the loonies are coming out of there bat caves.....
83 • Stand firm Ladislav, NO SATANIC EDITION (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 17:29:02 GMT from United States)
Yeah, like someone else said, what's next, Ubuntu Terrorist Edition (Ubuntu TE) or Ubuntu Porn Edition (Ubuntu PE) or Ubuntu Serial Killer Edition (Ubuntu SKE). This is truly a matter of commonsense and good taste. If Satan is your thing and all things that are tasteless (porn, hatred, extremism, racism, evil) then start your own site. We don't tell our local bakey what to bake and how to bake it, if we are not happy we just find another bakery.
This is not a Chtistian or Muslim censorship thing. I think Ladislav would have banned Ubuntu Terrorist Edition (Ubuntu TE) if there was such a thing being mindful to those people who died in India recently due to terrorism. You'd ban a distro like that. An example of censorship would be matters that are technical like banning all Debian based system or systems that don't have a GUI, these are examples of censorship relative to what Ladislav did. He made the right decision and should not buckle under because a few people don't like it.
So often we blur line between good taste with common sense versus just about anything goes. No wonder why the kids today are so confused and lost. Why would any serious Windows user convert to Linux when they see such nonsense. I don't ever want to see an Ubuntu Satanic Edition in my kid's school because of some moron thinks it censorship. Because if such a thing was to happen then Ubuntu Terrorist Edition (Ubuntu TE) or Ubuntu Porn Edition (Ubuntu PE) and Ubuntu Serial Killer Edition (Ubuntu SKE) will follow shortly which I would expect it to be banned immediately on DW. But some moron somewhere will accuse DW of censorship if they do ban it, what has this world come to?
84 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 17:30:09 GMT from United States)
There should be allowance of the Ubuntu Satanic Edition :)
After all the Devil was created by God and he exists and is real as well. How about starting a thread in Slax forum again with existence of God and the Devil and creation of Slax Satanic Edition.
85 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 17:32:06 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu Porn Edition, that sounds like Ubuntu will rise even higher in the distro ratings :)
How cool is that :)
86 • Re: @84 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-04 21:42:47 GMT from United States)
Get your facts right! The devil WAS NOT created by God. The devil was an angel who attempted to take over heaven. God ordered the Arch Angel Michael to mount an Arny to do battle where he cast Satan in his angesl out. God who is good was under attack from one of his angels who had turned bad and wish to do evil which God banished from heaven to an abyss separated from God which we know as hell.
Therefore Satan was not created by God, Luficer who was an angel turned against God on his free will.
So inclusion Satan/Lucifer represents what is evil and morally corrupt. And plastering such a name on a Linux distro is sick. Salman Rushdie, who wrote a book called the Satanic Verses offended many people of all walks of life.The Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, issued a fatwa calling on all good Muslims to kill Rushdie and his publishers, or to point him out to those who can kill him if they cannot themselves. This is a bit extreme but many people not just Muslims finds his book repulsive and offensive to the highest degree.
What people do in there own confines is there business but when something is promoted openly in the public as good when it is evil then it says we as a civilized society have lost our way. It is my conclusion that DW does not wish to support, align, approve of or condone Ubuntu SE because what it potentially may represent.
When you read S.E.'s installation recommendations they say download and install Ubuntu Christian Edition then download and Install Ubuntu SE over it. No other distro that I know of says download another distro to only be overwritten by theirs. This was a willful and deliberate act by the Ubuntu SE people to symbolize crushing God.
Once again if an Ubuntu Pedophile Edition came out and was banned by DW there would be somebody somewhere crying out that it's a victim of censorship. We as civilized society have set some reasonable boundaries. Ubuntu SE may be a great piece of software but what they potentially represent by attempting to squash out Ubuntu CE to be overwritten at installation time by SE is an example of their reckless behavior and lack of regard and respect for other distros
87 • It's Ladislav's site and he gets to decide what's on it (by Caitlyn Martin on 2008-12-05 04:54:29 GMT from United States)
A year or two ago I was using Mustang Linux, a pocket (mini) live CD aimed at systems administrators. Think something like Finnix but different. It wasn't on DistroWatch and I wrote a note to Ladislav asking him to add it. He was courteous enough to respond with a lengthy e-mail explaining his rationale for excluding Mustang Linux at the time (no forum, no mailing lists, next to nothing for support, etc...). I still felt it was a useful tool but he felt differently. In the end Ladislav was right. Mustang Linux didn't last. It's gone now, as is MitraX, another mini distro I thought was well done.
My point is that this is Ladlislav's site. If you don't like the way he runs it you have the option of reading OS News instead or starting your own competing site. I think we have to respect Ladislav's decisions about what to include and what not to include. He's paying the bills, after all. It's his business and livlihood. You have the option of using his product (DistroWatch) or not as you see fit. He has the freedom to decide what to include and what not to include. Do I always agree with him? No. It's still not my site and it still is his.
I also think if Ladislav's reasons are based on strongly held religious beliefs then those certainly have to be respected.
88 • This is "Ladislav's site" (by Jerry B. on 2008-12-05 11:49:18 GMT from United States)
Embedded in your remarks, Caitlyn, is the notion that posted dissent here is not welcome, especially if it has to do with Ladislav's decisions as to what to include on "his site."
I accept that, but I don't "respect" it, as you say. What I "respect" is free speech and well thought-out dissent and/or agreement, etc; in other words, open debate.
If Ladislav, or you, want to pinch off that open debate, then why have a forum here (this is a forum even though it's called a "comments area")? Is this area meant only for technical discussion of Linux distributions? Then say so somewhere and be clear about that.
Then we can all stop debate and being funny now and then and bantering etc. We'll adhere to the strict notions imposed upon us or we'll have our posts deleted.
89 • @77, 83 & 87 - Inconsistency, Misunderstandings, and Against the Linux ideals (by Miq on 2008-12-05 11:50:33 GMT from Sweden)
@77's "not censorship, it is good taste": deciding "good taste" for others and precluding information based on your notions is in fact the very definition of censorship. Also, though not claiming to be an authority on the subject, it seems that "Satanism" is not about embracing "evil" or necessarily worshipping the Christian devil (a character that is actually not part of original Christianity, which should be interesting to reflecting non-dogmatic people) but rather a loose constellation of various quasi-religious perspectives ranging from atheism to WIccan witchcraft to a proper cult of the Devil. Nonetheless, after a quick look-over the community at Ubuntu SE doesn't strike me as particularly evil, unless you count a penchant for black metal music as a sufficient criteria. I'd say thinking for yourself and curiously questioning everything is more conductive to spiritual enlightenmentand "getting a life" than unquestioningly blind fanatical devotion to dogmatic "truths" and preconceived notions.
@83: Ubuntu Porn and Ubuntu Terror: Well, see next reply below, but "Hiweed LInux" and that recent linux dedicated to hacking and cracking is OK? I'm sorry, the slippery slope argument is simply plain silly here. However, if there WAS an established, stable, and active Ubuntu Child Porn or Terrorist edition (*shudders*) is should be listed here, which would be of great help for legal investigators.
@87 "Have to respect Ladislav's decisions": If they were rational or consistent, yes. However, this is (apparently) Lad's reply to the Ubuntu SE's inquiry:
"1. I don’t consider the name “Satanic edition” as an appropriate name for a Linux distribution. Believe me, there are many very sensitive people visiting DistroWatch who would be offended by the name of your distro. There is a line between what is and what isn’t an appropriate name for a software product and I believe that you’ve crossed that line.
2. Ubuntu is a registered trademark of Canonical. You need to show me an official permission from Canonical that grants you the use of the word Ubuntu in your product’s name."
#1 is false (or a reason of convenience since any religious affiliation will be obnoxious to fundamentalists of an opposite or even alternative conviction. "Hiweed Linux" is an Ubuntu-based distro allowed in the database with a name many would consider highly questionable. UbCE and ME is listed as "specialist distros" together with "Ophcrack LiveCD" which is used for cracking WIndows passwords, which I consider OK but many would think morally questionable or illegitimate, indicating that UbSE would fit as a specialist distro. And last week or so a linux distro dedicated to cracking and hacking was on the front page. Thus, general sensitivity or ethics can't really be on Lad's mind while personal preference masked by a guise of ethics apparently is. Now, true, there have been some amusing replies here by Westboro Baptist Church mindsharers, but since when have the free-spirited and open-minded Linux community cared about dogmatic wing-nuts?
#2 is also not very relevant since there are quite a few "Ubuntu *" distros which are happily contained and debated here, and in fact Shuttleworth himself has said he has no objections to "Ubuntu SE". Again, Lad's personal preference hidden under a justification.
DW has become much more than just Lad's pet hobby site, it has become one of the Linux Community hubs. As such it (and he) has a responsibility and that is not to be mental hygiene police. Linux is about freedom, choice and openness, and censoring viable, active and stable distros from the database for ideological convictions is actually something of a crime against the Linux ideals.
I don't particularly care for Ubuntu SE but I *do* care for objectivity, honesty, openness, freedom of ideas and consistency. For all of these reasons I consider censorship on DW revolting.
90 • RE: 89 (by Landor on 2008-12-05 13:24:41 GMT from Canada)
I for one don't believe S.E. should be found here, but it won't bias my thoughts on a couple of your comments.
"and that recent linux dedicated to hacking and cracking is OK?"
This is more of a question than a comment on it. What distro? Where? I looked back about 5 weeks (recent) and didn't find a new distro for "hacking and cracking". You're quite sure it wasn't something to do with security?
"As such it (and he) has a responsibility and that is not to be mental hygiene police. Linux is about freedom, choice and openness, and censoring viable, active and stable distros from the database for ideological convictions is actually something of a crime against the Linux ideals"
So in essence you're saying that because Ladislav runs a private enterprise that only includes information about software that is open source he has to strictly adhere to each and every principle? Goose-Step to the call of *BSD, Linux, or .*Solaris?
Also, upon reading your statement there I can't help but read how contradictory you were in it. You are in the belief that Ladislav should comform to your ideology, and convinctions, yet, you speak of freedom, choice, etc. So as long as Ladislav meets yours, anyone elses, or Linus' beliefs, choices, and freedoms, he's good to go. But woe is he if he doesn't? Odd no? Those ideologies stop at software?
Keep your stick on the ice...
91 • RE: Ubuntu Satanic Edition (by ladislav on 2008-12-05 13:25:23 GMT from Taiwan)
I am not going to argue or explain my reasons for excluding Ubuntu Satanic Edition from DistroWatch - I've done it elsewhere and I stand by what I said.
The only thing I want to add is that I did give this matter a careful thought. I was aware that there would be people disagreeing with me - just as there would be if I made the exact opposite decision. As they say, you can't please everybody all the time. I made what I thought was the right decision, so those who disagree with me will either have to live with it or will have to find some other place for their distro fix. Sorry :-(
I really don't think this is an issue. The story was on Slashdot and, if memory serves me right, just seven people cared enough to comment and most of them actually agreed with me. As always, there are a few very vocal readers who keep bringing this up at every opportunity, but that's their right. Some people fight for animal rights, some for world peace - and some for the inclusion of Ubuntu Satanic Edition on DistroWatch. But I think that most people simply get out more often.
One last thing. If you want me to reverse my decision, don't write to me. Write to Ubuntu Satanic Edition and ask them to change the name of their distribution. (And if they insist on using the word Ubuntu in their product name, they must also get a written permission from Canonical.) Of course, they won't do it. Because Ubuntu Satanic Edition is not about the distribution, it's really about the name and the resulting controversy.
92 • Re:91, Agreed... (by Caraibes on 2008-12-05 13:43:48 GMT from Dominican Republic)
I agree with Ladislav 100% on that one.
93 • @89+@82 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 13:50:01 GMT from United States)
I agree mig, couldn't have said it better.
loony? how is anyone looney for suggesting that if one religion should be included, then others should not be discounted based solely on that criteria. Stop being a moron, you may want to read the Twain quote before posting again.
Last time I checked there is a religion based on satanic worship. Also How does terrorism or porn equate to religion?
94 • #93 from the writer of #77 & #82 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 14:11:57 GMT from United States)
Anyone who has any familiarity at all with the teachings and rituals of satanism and tries to promote anything about it...including a distro is not what one would consider "normal", or even sane, according to the standards of a civilized society. And anyone who doesn't have familiarity with them and promotes or defends a distro based on them...is a moron. Or loonie if you prefer.
Satan is the embodiment of evil. To spend time promoting a distro that encourages people to write over Godly portions of a distro with satanic ones in the name of freedom makes you a moron. Don't like that...go start your own satanic site....and prove me right.
95 • @91 - Time to strike out some more stuff from the DB then... (by Miq on 2008-12-05 14:20:47 GMT from Sweden)
I think the name is rather about black metal music. I know some people
like that and though they like blood and devil imagery and the word
"satansim" they're decent people that hugs their kids and pet cats.
Anyway, strike these distros from the DB that features the name or the imagery of the Devil, they offend me:
* Devil Linux
And as for not hurting people's sensitivities: the FreeBSD ad at the top of the main page
96 • It's not about UbuntuSE (by Miq on 2008-12-05 14:30:26 GMT from Sweden)
Sorry for double-posting, but Lad, regardless how you try to spin it, it is not about Ubunto SE, it is about censorship, or more precisely YOUR censorship. There are other distros that shouldn't be here by your criteria, thus this is about you dismissing distros out of personal preference (while justifying it as something else). I react because this is very much against very core of what Linux is all about.
97 • New activities.. (by Verndog on 2008-12-05 15:04:26 GMT from United States)
"Some people fight for animal rights, some for world peace - and some for the inclusion of Ubuntu Satanic Edition on DistroWatch. But I think that __most people simply get out more often__."
For some reason, I found this very funny and true at the same time. Get out more often! Yea, that's the ticket. Walk on the sand at the beach. Discover a park.
Some people just want to find something "wrong" and report it. If Ubuntu SE were included then the naysayers would find something else to cry over.
If your so intent on promoting SE, then hang out on their forums.
I like what Caitlyn said. The reason behind most exclusion is poor forums or documentations or the distro itself.
Go fly a kite... (Not meant as bug-off, but rather enjoy something new)
98 • Good job Ladislav - No S.E. (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 15:16:44 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, thanks for not listing SE. Taking the religious aspect away. Any Distro that targets another distro in a hostile and negative manner should be banned.
Ubuntu SE asks it's potential user to download the Ubuntu Christian Edition so that it may overwrite and CE with SE. No other distro asks you to download another only for the sole purpose to destroy it and replace it with SE. This was dilberate, reckless, offensive and insulting. If they did that to Ubuntu ME there would have been an uproar that would have shook Linux.
@93 you missed the point. terrorism, porn and all things that satanic are known evils of modern day society. My point is a terrorist based Ubuntu should be banned, a porn based Ubuntu should be banned as well. I never said that they are equal to religion.
There are lots of other places where Satanic things are practiced I suggest you Google for it. Just because someone stands against something does not mean it's a bad thing. I stand against sexual offenders and demand that they all register in town's local database. Does that make me a bad person? I also stand against things that are known evils.
Terrorism has nothing to do with religion. If I was someone who lived in India trying to raise a family and someone came out with an Ubuntu Terrorist Edition most people in civilized societies would be offended by it especially here in the U.S. because the 911 attacks are still fresh in our minds. Which is the same as a Satanic Edition which is simply evil.
The Religious aspect angle is unavoidable because they chose to use a Name found in the Bible and Holy Quran. Many of those people learned that all things that are Satanic should be resisted at all costs because of the evil it represents.
So again, Ubuntu SE asks it's potential user to download the Ubuntu Christian Edition, explain to me why, and so that it may overwrite and CE with SE. No other distro asks you to download another only for the only sole purpose is to destroy it and replace it with SE. This was vicious, deliberate, reckless, offensive and insulting attack on another distro for no apparent reason other than what it represents, to destroy God. Even if your atheist, common respect for other distro should apply. If Microsoft said you must download Mandriva as a mandatory requirement and overwrite it with Vista installation it would have caused a huge uproar. Any Distro that targets another distro in a hostile and negative manner should be banned.
99 • S.E. (by Alan UK on 2008-12-05 16:24:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think the idea of a satanic Ubuntu was probably conceived as a bit of a laugh. I wouldn't give it much attention. It looks to me like a distro for Heavy/Thrash/Goth/Metal/ or whatever/ fans. The comment to overwrite the C.E. edition suggests to me a toungue-in-cheek red-rag-to-a-bull bit of devilment....(sorry).
And looking at the response on here, it's worked.
100 • quote of the week (by herman on 2008-12-05 17:46:18 GMT from Netherlands)
"Some people fight for animal rights, some for world peace - and some for the inclusion of Ubuntu Satanic Edition on DistroWatch."
That's hilarious. :-)
101 • #98 (by herman on 2008-12-05 17:52:57 GMT from Netherlands)
Comment deleted (offensive).
102 • BullShit (by RollMeAway on 2008-12-05 18:21:46 GMT from United States)
If we eliminate all posts about religion and politics here,
there are no posts left.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a forum about linux distributions?
103 • #102 (by herman on 2008-12-05 18:25:25 GMT from Netherlands)
Set the right example and share with us your thoughts regarding, say, the latest Fedora release. :-)
104 • #101 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 18:32:31 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
105 • #101 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 18:41:09 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (offensive).
106 • #104 (by herman on 2008-12-05 18:44:39 GMT from Netherlands)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
107 • Streisand effect in the making? (by Miq on 2008-12-05 19:05:21 GMT from Sweden)
Interesting, all the posts of religiously indignation are (1) in /. diction by anonymous cowards, (2) from USA, and (3) the only ones hostile, verbally abusive or impolite, of faith rather than reason, demonising and jumping to conslusions. The rest of the world is not surprised. (If we could see the IP address I wouldn't be very taken aback if most, or at least the uncouth ones, were by the same poster.)
@98 "Terrorism has nothing to do with religion":
Thank you, AC, for your sterling insights.
@102: "If we eliminate all posts about religion and politics here,
there are no posts left. Wouldn't it be nice to have a forum about linux distributions?"
The discussion is about religiously flavoured distros. Of course, Godwin seems to be creeping closer, but still...
I think it would be a very good move by Ladislav to allow the users of this site a say in what should be included and excluded; as it is this state of affairs reflects poorly on his person and this site.
108 • #106 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 19:05:23 GMT from United States)
Comment delted (offensive).
109 • #86 • Re: @84 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 19:12:54 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
110 • #107 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 19:16:25 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
111 • okay the SE debate is over (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 19:20:00 GMT from United States)
This thread was brought about because they said SE is banned on DW.
Ladislav said no to SE, YEAH! You'll devil worshipers and atheist will have to find another forum that supports S.E, YES! i think this thread has now been answered.
I would of also banned it if it meant I might lose advertisers. CNN, Fox, NBC, ABC and CBS do all the time. They censor potty mouth words and offensive products like condoms. This is why they refused to advertise cigarettes and whiskey because they reserve the right to censor those things just as Ladislav does not list Ubuntu SE.
Case close. That was the right decision Ladislav.
112 • About the US guys that are cowards (by gocosoldll on 2008-12-05 19:20:25 GMT from United States)
I am the guy in last post(109) and post(84). I agree that the explosion of Ubuntu ____ Edition is too much too handle and if they allowed the Christian Edition, the Muslim Edition, they should allow the Hindu, the Jehova's Witness, the Protestant, Baptist, Mormon Editions and the Ubuntu Satanic Edition is another one that should be included. Otherwise just delete them all if you really want to send a statement. Having allowed all of those and not this one is bad. If you want to send a message go ahead and clean all the shit from Distrowatch.
Yes we are here to discuss Linux as well, but aren't there too many Ubuntu's already.
Also about God and the devil, no one can prove anything all of it is made up by MAN. How can you or anyone prove with facts not BIBLE not other books that what you write is true.
113 • re 107 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 19:22:17 GMT from United States)
There have been other posts here of other views, but they have been deleted. One from Germany I remember providing an Atheist's point of view countering all the pro religious ones here, for instance, so not just the US. I didn't see anything bad in it either, just another point of view.
This is now turning into a sunday school class? Interesting. People have different beliefs, it would be nice if people would respect the thoughts of others. A person's beliefs do not make them a good or bad person. As far as religious distros here, my thoughts are all, or none. My thoughts, Ladislav can do what he wants though. I do suggest changing the style of the forum though, requiring a login to post, and a few moderators so that the decision to delete things or whatever would be up to a collective of different people, to be fair to others, since this is a community information site.
114 • Re: @112 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 19:52:50 GMT from United States)
@112 you said:
"if they allowed the Christian Edition, the Muslim Edition, they should allow the Hindu, the Jehova's Witness, the Protestant, Baptist, Mormon Editions"
I have no doubt he would allow such a distro just not a satanic one.
115 • With #112: remove all the religious flavours from DW (by Miq on 2008-12-05 19:56:49 GMT from Sweden)
@110: Isn't it amazing how everyone who do not argue in perfect alignment with you are automatically atheists (as that would be something bad) oir "satan worshippers" as was suggested above? *cough*demonisation*cough* (Also, I think it might be interesting for you to reflect on that America didn't "save" Europe in WWII, the Russians did. America helped tip the balance on the West coast.)
@113: Remember the slippery slope argument that was brought up in the 80's or 90's of posts here? And thus continues the slide to censorship on DistroWatch...
I agree with #112: if one religiously-themed distro is disallowed from DW then all should be. Remove the Christian and Muslim editions too.
Also, what is the American AC community's opinion of Devil Linux that also is listed here? Still waiting for your judgement on that one.
116 • ubuntu se (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 20:01:08 GMT from United States)
Try promoting SE in Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Lybia, Afghanistan and Syria. But before you do so make your funeral arrangements first
117 • #110 (by herman on 2008-12-05 20:08:27 GMT from Netherlands)
Comment deleted (off-topic).
118 • HOWTO: Respectuflly disagree (by pearson on 2008-12-05 20:08:57 GMT from United States)
To those who disagree with Ladislav's decisions, particularly his decision to exclude Ubuntu Satanic Edition, I would like to make a few points.
1. It's Ladislav's site. You are, of course, free to disagree with his decision(s). You are free to express your disagreement; Ladislav even allows you to express your disagreement in his forum. Your opinion will carry much more weight if you express that disagreement *respectfully*. You do *not* have the right to demand anything of Ladislav.
2. There's a difference between "excluding" and "censoring". Ladislav had to make a judgment call on whether to include a distribution apparently intended to be controversial. It appears that he made that judgment call after much consideration, including how his readers and potential readers would respond (he is, after all, providing a service). Again (see point #1), you are free to disagree with his decision. Please respect the fact that it was and is his decision to make, and that he made it responsibly.
3. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you present yourself with anger, then others will respond appropriately. They are much more likely to dig in their heels and stand their ground if you attack them. If, however, you approach them calmly, they are much more likely (although it's not a guarantee) to listen and consider your position. They may even change their position. They should at least be able to explain more fully the foundations of their decision. If you're calm, then you can understand their position; this may actually help you to explain *your* position.
I hope this little lesson will help.
119 • @118 - Sed Contra (by Miq on 2008-12-05 20:16:47 GMT from Sweden)
Your points have already been addressed.
#1, that it is Lad's site and he can do whatever he wants:
"DW has become much more than just Lad's pet hobby site, it has become one of the Linux Community hubs. As such it (and he) has a responsibility and that is not to be mental hygiene police. Linux is about freedom, choice and openness, and censoring viable, active and stable distros from the database for ideological convictions is actually something of a crime against the Linux ideals.
#2, the difference between excluding and censuring. Yes, that would be acceptable if the reasons for exclusions were open, honest, consistent and reasonable. None of these are fulfilled.
#3, honey > vinegar. The verbally abusive tend to be anonymous religious fundamentalists. Those in favour of including SE or excluding all religious flavours have generally been rational and well-behaved.
I hope this little lesson has helped.
120 • @119 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-05 20:34:43 GMT from United States)
DW has become much more than just Lad's pet hobby site[...]As such it (and he) has a responsibility and that is not to be mental hygiene police
I'm sorry, but I don't think that the community has the *right* to tell an individual what he can or can not do with his own site. Let's say I start growing strawberries and offering them to the public for free. If I then decide to offer blueberries, does the community have the right to force me to keep providing strawberries? Ladislav accepts no money from his readers; the readers have *no* "right" to *demand* anything of him as they have no stake. He allows, and even solicits, differing opinions.
that would be acceptable if the reasons for exclusions were open, honest, consistent and reasonable. None of these are fulfilled.
Acceptable by whom? This is not a democracy, so who arbitrates acceptability? And, he *is* pretty open and honest and (IMO) reasonable. I also think that he's fairly consistent, but I'll accept that consistency can be subjective.
Those in favour of including SE or excluding all religious flavours have generally been rational and well-behaved.
I'm sorry, but when I read posts 74 ("half a brain", "religious sensitive"), 76 ("twisted way of being balanced"), and 78 ("You may want to be friends with Satan") I have trouble reading them as "rational and well-behaved". I will grant you the word "generally" - I may have let the less rational and less well-behaved arguments sway my perception.
121 • @121 (by Miq on 2008-12-05 20:46:23 GMT from Sweden)
If you f.i. ran a blog that went from being a small hobby thing to something millions read, then the situation changes and you would suddenly gain a responsibility you didn't have before. How you react to that and handles the situation would characterise you as a person.
#74 and #76 are really very benign posts from before the the proper debate ensued. You're making them out as much worse than they are.And you're totally misrepresenting #78 which is a tongue-in-cheek humorous post.
122 • Consider This? (by ConstantObserver2 on 2008-12-05 22:13:20 GMT from United States)
Some very popular Distro Forum Policies enforce not allowing any Religious or Political Discussions. Should that be considered here?
123 • Watching DW spiral the drain. Going, going, gone? (by Betty on 2008-12-06 01:16:05 GMT from Canada)
Every week this year I have found more and more reason to stop visiting this website. This week it's the on-going censorship of a specific distro because of religious intolerance, off-topic open hatred and religious bigotry unmodded here in the comments, and a whole lot of sycophantic slobbery that add nothing of value to the discussions. I wish more of you would meditate on the Mark Twain quote above the submit button.
As for this week's news, I find Mandriva's decision to cut employees during tough economic times extremely short-sighted. The only one who will benefit from this is the CEO, who will no doubt receive a large bonus for gutting the company's future prospects for a few short term gains.
Linux is supposed to be about an open exchange and respect for pluralism, what is wrong with you people?
124 • @123 You are right :) (by Anonymous on 2008-12-06 02:55:35 GMT from United States)
You are absolutely correct. How come the people argue of things that they have no control over.
The decision of the CEO to cut employees is a bad one, why does not he cut his own salary? He has just left a great number of people without food and without a job to get that food to live.
Linux is about sharing and using/improving code and programs. Whether religion should play a factor or not should depend on your own beliefs. Why force your beliefs on other people .
125 • @124 - Classical fallacy of reasoning (by Miq on 2008-12-06 03:31:51 GMT from Sweden)
That's a disingenuous argument and a logical fallacy. You basically say "since Linux is about freedom of ideas Lad is free to have the idea that ideas should not be free". This is exactly the same style of reasoning that "since God can't make a stone too heavy for Him to lift He can't be omnipotent". Logic has moved on since the 15th century.
Linux is about freedom. You're free to believe that Linux shouldn't be about freedom but then you break the foundation of Linux. As logics go it is a false tautology.
126 • MintMenu on openSUSE (by Full Circle on 2008-12-06 03:42:30 GMT from Australia)
MintMenu on openSUSE
Recently, Magnus asked for views on some Main Menu improvements. Among the responses were references to MintMenu (which is based on Ubuntu's version). I've spent some time this week beating this into an openSUSE shape and have produced a rather large (265 lines) patch.
Now, the code as supplied is a pain to work with. It's Python and so the Mint developers basically supply it as an installed image. This means that cross-architecture stuff is a pain (/usr/lib versus /usr/lib64), compounded by the fact that throughout the code, paths are hard-coded! I lay down an invitation to anyone who wants to make this into a proper packages with a classic configure; make; make install install route where distro-specific things are configurable at make time.
Anyway, on i586 at least I know it works (maybe on x86_64 too - anyone care to try it and fix it if needs be? The package is currently in my home repo for 11.1 and Factory. While working on it, I found a bug in python-xdg. I've fixed this and the update will go into Factory soon. When it does, there'll be an 11.1 version in my home repo but in the meantime, the Factory package available here should suffice on 11.1 betas/RCs too.
Screenshot below (Darklooks theme):
127 • re 126 MintMenu on openSUSE (by repo for packages on 2008-12-06 04:24:58 GMT from Australia)
128 • On The Bright Side... (by Amusing on 2008-12-06 10:24:16 GMT from United States)
...of the global recession, it is nice to know that the community around DW thinks enough of USE to waste enough time arguing about it.
So what about Ubuntu Dianetics Edition? Inquiring minds want to waste time on pointless debates about someone else's religious beliefs to forget about the hunger pains.
129 • Bananatic Edition (by Landor on 2008-12-06 12:21:15 GMT from Canada)
I always find this kind of fervor over a topic absurd. The man made a choice based on "his own criteria" and that is that.
It would be like telling someone that hates bananas and vomits when they even smell that (which I come close to doing) that they are wrong and they should eat bananas! They are so good!
You think I or another person would listen? Change our mind?
Oh, and to keep it on track, it was really nice to see someone incorporating one aspect of another distro (Mint) into another one (openSUSE). Those are the little things I like to see. Even though they're not collaborating together, in a sense, unknowingly at this point they are.
Maybe some who have been sweeping this week's main topic with a sledge hammer should think about that kind of positive interaction, it seems to be far more beneficial to the actual growth and harmony within Linux, one of the "ideals" a community like this "should" foster, and a few seem to have forgotten.
Keep your stick on the ice...
130 • PCLOS (by paul on 2008-12-06 13:21:41 GMT from United States)
Hey programmers! I have a question.
I tried the latest release of PCLOS and found the same problem on wireless. I do not understand programming sufficiently, to figure out why a distro would be able to identify the wireless device (MA111) and identify that prism2-utils is missing along withwlanctl-ng, but not include them. Are these things so huge that it is easier to diagnose them as missing, rather than include them?
131 • Again, it's not about UbuntuSE (by Miq on 2008-12-06 13:41:16 GMT from Sweden)
@128: Again, it isn't about Ubuntu SE, it is about censorship, which should be instinctively repugnant to all partaking in the Linux ideals.
Oh, btw, if you like the MintMenu you might wish to take a look at KDE4's Lancelot menu. It has all the features and some and delivers them in an exquisite package.
Landor (#129), religious hypocrisy should be fought wherever encountered and certainly has no place in the Linux world. Lad's choice aren't made on consistent criteria but seemingly rather on (religious?) prejudice. If DW should continue to be part of the growth of the Linux community it should represent its ideals. Harmony and positive interaction requires openness and active resistance to prejudice.
Betty sums it up perfectly in #123: "Every week this year I have found more and more reason to stop visiting this website. This week it's the on-going censorship of a specific distro because of religious intolerance, off-topic open hatred and religious bigotry ... Linux is supposed to be about an open exchange and respect for pluralism, what is wrong with you people?"
132 • RE: 131 (by ladislav on 2008-12-06 15:00:02 GMT from Taiwan)
Oh please, stop this censorship nonsense already, will you?
One thing that might help you to understand the opposing view is if you stop looking at Ubuntu Christian/Muslim Edition as religions and if you start looking at them what they are - operating systems for computers. As a matter of fact, I find these distros excellent and honest attempts at creating ready-made solutions for certain environments - for churches, mosques, bible schools, etc. Instead of running some bug-ridden and virus-prone copy of Windows, these institutions can now install a Linux distro customised to their needs, with useful software added on top. In contrast, Ubuntu Satanic Edition serves no purpose other than ridiculing the other two. Great as a prank, but don't expect to find it in the DistroWatch headlines (or the headlines of any other serious Linux web site on the Internet for that matter)!
You call it censorship, I call it common sense. But you are entitled to your opinion. Just please stop repeating the same thing over and over again in every post - we did get the message the first time! And as you can see from the above discussion, there are quite a few readers (besides myself) who disagree with you.
133 • No to SE, but CE, ME, and others okay :) (by GOCOSOLDLL on 2008-12-06 15:37:16 GMT from United States)
If I were Ladislav here, I would remove all the Ubuntu ______ Edition, It is definitely hard to keep track of the ___Ubuntu, where you can fill in the blank with K, Edu, X, Flux, ..., etc. IT would be one less distribution to take care of it.
Now all those Ubuntu _____ Editions, are nothing more than a regular Ubuntu + _____ else you can get with apt or build from source, so why did Ubuntu make up all this mess for themselves. At Least I respect Fedora more because there is no GFedora, KFedora, XFedora, ... etc. They have only one Fedora and that is it. Take Debian the mother distro for Ubuntu and many others there is no KDebian, GDebian, XDebian. Even Mandriva which has made many stupid decisions in the past (Did you hear that Mandriva guys), firing Adam Williamson and first firing Gael Duval, when those guys were like the heart and sole and one of the reasons people were using your distro anyways. They don't have KMandriva, GMandriva, XMandriva. The number of distriubtions with all of these distinctions is just too much. So even if I don't agree with Ladislav because he does not include it but allowed all the others, Ubuntu Satanic Edition would have packages for users to download and get their ?_Ubuntu__?___Edition to Ubuntu Satanic Edition easily right and satisfy those that want it.
But this mess was created by allowing all of the others and not allowing this one. iT is as simple as that.
134 • Re: # 132 (by johncoom on 2008-12-06 15:50:20 GMT from Australia)
I think many of us that promote Linux and Open Source regardless of the distro that one happens to use, agree with you Ladislav ! Rather than those who can do nothing but blindly criticize you with the claim of censorship and trying to shame you in to changing your opinion. Please don't allow these seemingly adolescents presser you, as I for one agree with your judgment. It is your site, you carry on doing it your way. I have been visiting from almost its first conception, even before you created DWW. The service you have given to many people over the years has been extremely valuable.
Lots of seemingly adolescent types have nothing to offer and are yet to learn what real Freedom is, and that is not to say and be just how ever you like when ever you like, regardless of other people. But to restrict how one acts to allow others to have real freedom. Plus what is claimed as censorship by some is just an abuse of freedom of choice not to have to put up with child like crap for other people.
135 • @123 You are right :) (by Anonymous on 2008-12-06 17:20:05 GMT from United States)
You are absolutely correct. How come the people argue of things that they have no control over.
The decision of the CEO to cut employees is a bad one, why does not he cut his own salary? He has just left a great number of people without food and without a job to get that food to live.
Linux is about sharing and using/improving code and programs. Whether religion should play a factor or not should depend on your own beliefs. Why force your beliefs on other people .
136 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-12-06 17:31:16 GMT from United States)
Slax is the best distro. It is modular and you can add things like if you want to make it Slax Satanic Edition, and if you want also you can make Slax Christian Edition, Slax Muslim Edition, and then ask Ladislav to include it in Distrowatch. Except don t submit Slax Satanic Edition, it will not be included !
137 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-12-07 01:48:16 GMT from United States)
I think people are making too much of Ubuntu SE. It seems to be geared
more toward Death/Heavy-Metal users than Satanist. As far as I can
tell, Ubuntu SE doesn't come loaded with the Satanic bible or anything
like that -- it does come with metal music. Back in my teens being
a fan of such music, I would have installed this O/S without question.
Not because I 'was' or 'am' a satanist; I would have installed it
because it looks cool and fit into my teenage rebellion persona.
I agree the name of this buntu-clone is a bit in your face and goes
against societal norms etc -- but as the old saying goes, C'est la vie,
too each his/her own.
138 • @132 - Live and Let Live (by Miq on 2008-12-07 09:38:22 GMT from Sweden)
@132: "You call it censorship, I call it common sense. ... as you can see from the above discussion, there are quite a few readers (besides myself) who disagree with you."
Your criteria for inclusion and exclusion aren't reasonable or consistent, that's the problem. By your previously given criteria Devil Linux should be stricken. By the "usefulness" reason just given USE is a complete OS prepared for heavy metal fans (why would that faction be of lesser worth than a religious one?).
As for readers disagreeing with "me", there seem to be at least as many or even more against you in this, and those that are seem quite a bit more lucid and reasonable than those with you.
Anyway, I think the reasonable solution is either to strike all religious OS:s from the database since they will always be controversial to some groups or in someone's face, or change the DB structure a bit and add them as "flavours" or "adaptations" (or something) of their parent, which would have the additional benefit of cleaning up the current mess of a structure (and allow adding variants perhaps more controversial is a way without giving them more status than they deserve). If you want to avoid this kind of controversy, which unfortunately is harmful for both this site and the cohesion of the Linux community, live and let live is probably a better philosophy to adopt.
139 • RE: 138 Live and Let Live (by ladislav on 2008-12-07 11:08:40 GMT from Taiwan)
By your previously given criteria Devil Linux should be stricken.
Why? Does it offend anybody? Does it violate any registered trademarks? Does it take cheap shots at other distributions?
USE is a complete OS prepared for heavy metal fans.
Ah, so they've changed their orientation recently. That's good, that certainly is positive development, which I wasn't aware of. Unfortunately, I still have a problem with their violating a registered trademark. If they can change their name or obtain a permission from Canonical, I might reconsider my position.
140 • Permission (by Miq on 2008-12-07 12:09:05 GMT from Sweden)
I am getting a bit tired of being something of an reluctant advocate for a distro I really don't care about personally, so this will probably be my last post about it, or at least what I hope the end of the debate.
@139: "If they can ... obtain a permission from Canonical, I might reconsider my position."
See http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS2432715660.html :
[Regarding Ubuntu SE] Ubuntu/Kubuntu founder and chief executive Mark Shuttleworth, answering a query from DesktopLinux.com, was philosophical in his response.
"Ubuntu is a broad church!" Shuttleworth wrote in an email. "We manage to keep both GNOME and KDE folks happy and collaborating constructively, so this should be no trouble at all."
"Our guiding rules are enshrined in the Ubuntu Code of Conduct, and as long as all sides are following that, there's no problem with derivatives that are focused on such diverse user bases," the Ubuntu founder added.
141 • RE: 140 Permission (by ladislav on 2008-12-07 12:23:41 GMT from Taiwan)
That's great to see that Mark Shuttleworth has no problem with Ubuntu Satanic Edition. Unfortunately, the Canonical trademark lawyers might have a different view of the matter. See here as an example: http://u-lite.org/?q=node/171.
142 • 141 - That was for using an existing logo (by Anonymous on 2008-12-07 12:39:39 GMT from Sweden)
That was for Ubuntulite assuming and using the Kubuntu logo as-is (and directly suffixing their name to "Ubuntu" which would make it appear a Canonical release).
With your project you are using our Kubuntu logo together with your project name Ubuntulite and this is a breach of our trademark. ... Your project name, Ubuntulite is also not compliant with our trademark policy. We do encourage people to make custom versions of Ubuntu, and we have established the "remix" concept and terminology to allow use of the trademark if the changes are minimal or include only software from the Ubuntu repositories. It is of course fine to host repositories and distribute the software - the issue is that you are attaching the brand, quality and assurance messages of the Ubuntu marks to something which is not Ubuntu. We wouldn't have a problem with you naming your project Ubuntu Lite Remix for example.
Thus "Ubuntu Satanic Edition" is fully within the rules/guidelines set forth by Canonical.
143 • RE: 142 That was for using an existing logo (by ladislav on 2008-12-07 13:15:03 GMT from Taiwan)
Thus "Ubuntu Satanic Edition" is fully within the rules/guidelines set forth by Canonical.
Sorry, but your word is not good enough for me. Ubuntulite did not use the exact same logo as Kubuntu, just some elements from it. Exactly like Ubuntu Satanic Edition which uses a logo with elements taken from the Ubuntu logo. But even if you were right and Ubuntu Satanic Edition did not violate any trademarks, I still think it's wise to write to the trademark holder and obtain a written permission.
144 • Strange thread (by Todd R. on 2008-12-07 13:21:24 GMT from United States)
All this "Satanic Edition" talk.
Are we deep into a serious issue with Linux?
Or are we bumping around into each other trying to establish and hold our little "territory" of logic about a non-issue?
On the bright side I suppose establishing and nurturing controversies does generate page hits here.
145 • @paul, 130 (by davecs on 2008-12-07 14:15:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
There is no full release of PCLinuxOS yet, the latest release is for testing only. If something doesn't work the place to report it is at the PCLOS forum, so that we can try to get a fix into the final release.
146 • #145 - kernel 2.6.27.? (by paul on 2008-12-07 15:49:52 GMT from United States)
This wasn't a gripe so much as a philosophical question. All the live CDs I have tried have the same problem. Mandriva is the only distro that has fixed the problem. I assume this to be a kernel developer's decision to drop support for old/obsolete wifi dongles. I will (hopefully) be getting a better dongle for Christmas (if I am really good). I was merely wondering if that much space was saved by eliminating the old stuff, if you have to include indentifying said same stuff, along with the pop-up warnings about missing components.
147 • ref#146 - Kernel compilation (by Verndog on 2008-12-07 16:21:24 GMT from United States)
You could compile your own kernel and include the old dongle. It's not hard, just time comsuming.
148 • 143 (by gocos on 2008-12-07 17:55:21 GMT from United States)
If they(The patent holders) approve it, then it can be included and move on to more important things. That way eveyone can be happy and you do not offend anyone.
I wonder sometimes, because I have a friend who runs FreeBSD and they told him that the compter was running a little devil(beatie), it is just a picture and "the devil" has nothing to do with FreeBSD. I do not know if there are connections with "Devil Linux"
149 • @143. 148: Re Approval from Canonical (by Miq on 2008-12-07 18:15:52 GMT from Sweden)
From the Canonical Wiki:
if you are creating a derivative of Ubuntu, you may use the Trademarks in association with the software product provided:
* the changes are minimal and unsubstantial, as described above
* there is no commercial intent associated with the new product
* the Trademark is used in a way that makes it clear that your project is a development effort related to the Ubuntu source, but that the software you are working upon is not in fact Ubuntu as distributed by the Ubuntu project. The approved naming scheme to facilitate this is through designation “Remix”. For instance, a new ISO image which has been packaged special tools for software developers could be called “Ubuntu, Developers Remix”, or an image was has been created with Thai language packs could be called "Ubuntu Thai Remix". Words such as "Edition" and "Version" should be avoided, as they have specific meaning within the Ubuntu project. Prefixes, such as “ThaiBuntu” should also be avoided. Any other naming scheme will require explicit permission.
* there is no suggestion (through words or appearance) that your project is approved, sponsored, or affiliated with Ubuntu or its related projects unless it has been approved by and is governed by the Ubuntu Community Council.
150 • @paul, 146 (by davecs on 2008-12-07 21:08:59 GMT from United Kingdom)
The testing version of PCLOS is using a 188.8.131.52 kernel on the live because the 2.6.27 kernel doesn't support the compression we are using for the image file. Some hardware drivers have been backported from the 2.6.27 series.
There will be other kernels available including 2.6.27 for installed systems.
As for the official kernel dropping certain drivers, well I would still say: if it's a problem pop over to the forum and report it as a bug. You may find that there is either another way of getting it working, or that support can be added. There's no philosophical issues at PCLOS, if we can get something working, and provided we can legally include the necessary stuff required to do so, we'll give it our best shot!
The main thing though, is that it's a testing version, and if you've tried it and something doesn't work, the place to report it is at the PCLOS forum so that our devs can try to fix it before the final release.
151 • @133 (by Jimmy Johnson on 2008-12-07 21:45:46 GMT from United States)
You are wrong about Debian (see the link) and I feel the rest of your post is just as worthless, you should check your resources before posting.
Viva la Difference! http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/weekly-builds/ia64/iso-cd/
152 • @ 151 (by Anonymous on 2008-12-07 23:17:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
133 said "there is no KDebian, GDebian, XDebian"
You shot him down in post 151, but technically.. you were wrong, and 133 was right
Debian do not call their different desktop 'editions' by specific names, or by differing prefix - do they? Thats what was stated in 133.
its pretty obvious that you could have a KDE desktop Debian if you wanted it.
Debian would call that .... Debian.
Your link shows that one can download an image that would give a different desktop by default. But thats all - It is still 'Debian'.
You could do the same via issue of a 'tasksel' argument during install of the standard debian installer, as i recall.
Show me any version of Debian (not a 3rd party derivative) on DW - or anywhare - that isnt simply 'Debian'.
(as opposed to Ubuntu which has specific versions called Xubuntu, Kubuntu)
Think before you flame eh?
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