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1 • KDE 3 in Intrepid (by chemist on 2008-10-27 11:17:05 GMT from Germany) |
There is still a possibility to stick with KDE 3 in Intrepid:
Please, read this thread first:
2 • first (by Badry Darkoush on 2008-10-27 11:19:50 GMT from Syrian Arab Republic)
nice week issue
looking forowrd for Ubuntu 8.10 && Debian 5 tow :-)
3 • debian ? (by glyj on 2008-10-27 11:32:23 GMT from France)
I'm almost one of the Mandriva's ayatollahs :-D
But I think I'll have a look to the Debian release, for fun.
I hope you are in a better health this week.
4 • Ubuntu 8.10 (by Stuart on 2008-10-27 11:36:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
I upgraded to the newest Ubuntu with the Release Candidate, and it seems more stable than the "LTS". Namely, the issues with Pulse Audio seem fixed (previously couldn't play sounds from two sources at once!), and Network Manager doesn't give bug errors every time you restart (in Hardy I used WICD instead). Startup/shutdown is also faster for me than it was in 8.04.
5 • No subject (by Jimbo on 2008-10-27 11:40:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
The author of the KDE piece seems to confuse "mature" or "stable" with the word "good"
"By which time, KDE 4 might be just as good as KDE 3.5 is today."
KDE4 is already as good as KDE3.5, in fact it is a lot better, it is just not as mature and not as stable. If you want the most mature and the most stable KDE then you go for 3.5, if you want the version which is the most good [sic] then you go for KDE4.
6 • Debian (by Mil on 2008-10-27 11:41:12 GMT from Italy)
(or maybe Sidux,why not?)
7 • NVidia Drivers in Intrepid (by Leo on 2008-10-27 11:42:50 GMT from United States)
Well, I started the process as described by Ladislav to upgrade Kubuntu to 8.10-Rc, but I was greeted by a Warning, that there was no Binary NVIDIA driver for my card, and I could either go through, use "nv" and lose hardware acceleration, or cancel. I canceled, and Salute the excellent handling of this issue on (K)Ubuntu side. THe upgrade was reversed gracefully. I'll have to wait for NVidia to update their drivers, though. Does anyone know anything else on this issue? When is NVIDIA expected to provide an update? The issue is mentioned in the release notes for 8.10.
8 • KDE4 (by Rich on 2008-10-27 11:46:35 GMT from United States)
Using Mandriva 'one' 2009 with KDE4 on a new laptop, Kubuntu 8.10 64-bit with KDE4 on my 64-bit Amd machine and Suse 11.0 32-bit with KDE4.0 on my work Desktop. All seem very functional with some minor glitches. Overall I like the new KDE 4.0. Good step in the right direction. I use Suse everyday now. Was a PCLinuxOS fan tried the new 3.5.10 beta and thought it was very good but opted for the newer KDE 4 seeing that it's all eventually heading that way anyways.
9 • Great DWW (by Dante on 2008-10-27 11:51:20 GMT from Netherlands)
I belong to the KDE 3 group :).
10 • Or, SimplyMEPIS 8.0 (uses a Lenny base) (by JimC on 2008-10-27 11:54:23 GMT from United States)
": install Debian "Lenny"."
Or, install SimplyMEPIS 8.0 (now at beta 3). It's using a Lenny base with KDE 3.5
11 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-10-27 11:57:33 GMT from Finland)
"While progress was obvious, it still barely qualified as a beta release."
Seriously WTF!? KDE4.1 works great for me and apparently for many others. Who writes this BS!?
12 • 'Cos I don't have a blog - somewhat OT (by Barnabyh on 2008-10-27 11:58:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
I went to the Linuxliveexpo in London over the weekend and what a depressing sight to see. I have been to these events since 2002, when it was called LinuxWorld I believe, and after the whole thing was skipped last year due to lack of interest this year's expo was tiny and shared the floor with MacUser and Adobe's Creativeexpo.
IBM was still present as the only major business, and Novell and Ubuntu pretty much shared their space with nothing much but giving the same speeches over and over (these guys looked tired on Saturday!) and handing out cd's. Frankly, most of what they had to say was of little interest if you've been following the scene for a while, and surely by now we all know a MS free desktop is possible? If this was supposed to inform decison makers in companies contemplating the switch, well, it didn't appear there were many, attendance was well below previous years and it seems to me has been declining since 2004.
On the upside there was the Great Linux Debate with somebody from Redhat talking about real-time linux and patches.
There were a few small stalls from Lonix and UKUUG, some bookshops, linux-magazine, linux user and developer, Debian (all seemingly having downsized on the space), a tiny presence by CentOS and by both Gnome and KDE in what pretty much amounted to a booth with a chair, and that was pretty much it! No tuxgames, no FSF, nothing from Fedora or officially Redhat, no Mandriva, and also nothing from the Slackware galaxy side of things in this great Linux universe of ours (to be fair they never were present anyway).
rant//Hope this is not a sign of things to come, but a gradual decline in interest here seems obvious. This development also underpins my belief that the UK is still overwhelmingly a MS shop and they just love to pay for software and have their 'needs taken care of', so they think, with the misconception that something like a new desktop would be 'too difficult to learn' for their typical enduser in civil service and other organisations. Or perhaps it is a damning indictment on what 15 years of boom have done to this country, with most people too lazy and inflexible/unskilled/not able to adapt/not interested (and I'm not saying this lightly but this is my impression of the population in this country and not just in reference to IT but to pretty much everything) for as long as the money kept on rolling in they would just keep chucking money at things safe in the knowledge that there'll always be more. This may change soon once more companies are genuinely seeking to save more money and become more open about the possibilities, but it still strikes me as a country that would rather raise taxes or the prices of goods to be able to keep paying licenses to somebody in the US rather than embrace new ways of doing things. Europe is certainly way ahead here as they are with implementing and researching technology for renewable energy (as in BBC Panorama just yesterday).//rant over
13 • KDE 3 vs 4 (by omaha on 2008-10-27 12:00:19 GMT from Norway)
The article's ingress promises analysis but unfortunately it turns into a rant - apparently designed to kick off a debate creating traffic.
Some points that might be worth considering:
- KDE 4.1.2 is rather fresh and NOT perfect
- There are bugs but hardly a drama
- Evaluate KDE 4.1.2 - Get over your experience with 4.0
- KDE 4.1.2 is not KDE 3.5.10 thus a learningprocess is required
- Don't confuse KDE 4.1.2 with KDE 4.1.2 apps
- If you miss features consider the use of KDE 3.5 apps
- If you prefer a clean DE wait until missing features arrives
- KDE 4.1.2 might be ready - your distro might not
- Don't swap until your distro is ready - or swap distro
- Different users different needs
- If it doesn't cater for your needs it still might satisfy and please most users
- If it's fine for most users but might not satisfy you
The article reminds me of one written by Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols. He wrote a review of KDE 4.1 based upon a brief test of 4.0 and hardly looked at 4.1 at all. I went through his arguments and none stuck. He then performed a 1/2 hour rerun and stated: Nah - still don't like it.
If you don't like KDE 4.1 it's fine (many people don't) - it's when personal preferences are confused with defects it gets wrong.
14 • KDE 3/4 (by Terrible Tony Thompson on 2008-10-27 12:04:29 GMT from Turkey)
What about a fourth group: those who believe in KDE 4 but are using a distro that only has KDE 3 support? Some people use KDE 3 but are not rabidly against KDE 4.
15 • I'll switch to KDE4.. (by Radiera on 2008-10-27 12:06:27 GMT from Romania)
when it will be available in Debian Testing. Debian developers are smarter then the others by not introducing an unusable desktop environment. Debian will say when KDE is usable!
16 • Mandriva's KDE (by CoolGoose on 2008-10-27 12:11:39 GMT from Romania)
It has Kde 4.1 not 4.0. It's a major difference. Imho from 4.2 onwards you can use KDE 4.x as your main desktop because you'll also have K Office 2 etc and you can have a clean no qt3 desktop.
17 • Desktop vs. widget container (by Ariszló on 2008-10-27 12:15:12 GMT from Hungary)
In KDE3, a desktop is primarily a desktop to which one may optionally add widgets via SuperKaramba. In KDE4, a desktop is primarily a widget container which may be optionally turned into a desktop. Since I prefer a desktop to a widget container, I will keep using KDE3 as long as it is supported by the distributions I am using. Then I will probably move to Gnome, Xfce or LXDE.
18 • I use Fedora's KDE4 (by Jorge on 2008-10-27 12:16:49 GMT from Spain)
I use Fedora's KDE4 in my thinkpad and desktop. While everything goes OK with kde is very frustrating to have all fedora's tool's made only for gnome. All the glitches that I have are because fedora is gnome centred. and that's a pity because I will have to change. But wright now there is no kde centred distro:
Ubuntu (kubuntu is a bad joke)
19 • KDE desktop (by Ariel A. on 2008-10-27 12:20:21 GMT from Argentina)
I also belong to the KDE 3 group, although KDE 4 looks promising it still needs many months of polishing, I agree with Distrowatch people, having Debian is the best choice.
best regards :-)
20 • Kubuntu 8.10 (by James Rosser on 2008-10-27 12:23:46 GMT from United States)
I have been using Kubuntu 8.10 since alpha 6 as my production machine and other than the small problem with Knetwork manager that has since been resolved and the twitter plasmoid that crashes plasma I love it. The only thing im missing is Kdevelop 4 which wont be out till kde4.2. I used to be a strictly gnome user but KDE4 has converted me. People that haven't used Kde4 since it first came out should really give it a shot again I think the KDE team has done a great job and cannot wait for the next release. My 2 cents.
21 • Kde 4 or 3 (by Matyas on 2008-10-27 12:25:11 GMT from Norway)
Im using Archlinux. You can choose between Kde 4.1 or 3.5.10(Kdemod). 4.1 works perfect for me though.
22 • KDE Applications (by JimC on 2008-10-27 12:26:18 GMT from United States)
"- Don't confuse KDE 4.1.2 with KDE 4.1.2 apps
- If you miss features consider the use of KDE 3.5 apps"
Future versions of applications are somewhat of a concern if you stick with KDE 3.5 (which I plan to do for now, using SimplyMEPIS 8.0).
I like digiKam for image management and simple edits, and it looks like development of digiKam 0.9.x may have stopped, with effort going forward being placed on 0.10.0 for KDE 4 from what I can read into the release schedule (no 0.9.5 is currently planned):
23 • @18: desktop agnostic (by Anonymous on 2008-10-27 12:38:05 GMT from France)
As any 'meta distribution', Arch is desktop agnostic.
24 • No subject (by Dick Cheney on 2008-10-27 12:40:19 GMT from United States)
Agreed that you should use Lenny - it's great. Provided you don't like Slackware better, of course. I do my playing with Debian KDE 4 on Virtualbox on top of Slackware.
It is easy to get KDE 4 on Lenny:
25 • KDE 3 vs 4 (by goom on 2008-10-27 12:43:44 GMT from France)
I've fully tested KDE 4 yet, and i must admit that i postpone the moment to really test KDE 4 even if it is the default desktop for Mandriva (with gnome)
I am a bit scared to switch from KDE 3 to KDE 4. I like very much KDE 3.5 it is stable, powerful (humm konqueror !!!), and fits my needs. I can configure it rather nicely and easily.
From what i've tested KDE 4, usability is not as the level of KDE 3.5. And the most important, even if i do not have difficulty with Linux, i do not have time to test and learn how KDE 4 works and how plasmoids work, i just want to use my computer, no more time for testing
For me there is another problem that is the pushing to adopt KDE 4, i especially think to Mandriva. KDE 3.5 is not supported any longer (it is in contrib media instead of main previously) and some important software and no more present (digikam for KDE 3.5).
I really understand that some distros like Fedora are very cutting edge, i don't really understand commercial distros like Mandriva which do not support any longer KDE 3.5 despite it stability and usability.
Finally, i think there is a gap between what geeks want and what "simple users" want.
26 • KDE4 - Wait till it's done (by Steve on 2008-10-27 12:45:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
What ever happened to "it's done when it's done"?
Personally, I see the primary role of the desktop as an enabler of other applications - a tool to allow them to work.
Yes, having built-ins and widgets is nice. I've played with KDE 4, just to see what's coming.
But I use my PC as a means to get work done - I don't want to be surprised about this and that bits not quite working.
For me, KDE is part of the total experience, not THE experience. 3.5.9 is really impressive (though Konqueror can still throw the odd bomb) and gets the job done fine. And that's what I want.
This is a real conundrum for the developers! How to test such a large body of software in the field? :/
But for now KDE 4 is not on my main machine. It probably will be - when it's done and not before.
27 • No subject (by Bill on 2008-10-27 12:48:26 GMT from United States)
The problem (at least for me) isn't KDE4 de but the KDE4 apps. There are too many not yet ported and some that are aren't comparable in either functionality or stability with their 3.5.x counterparts.
28 • @25 (by Serge Matovic on 2008-10-27 12:48:58 GMT from Canada)
"Finally, i think there is a gap between what geeks want and what "simple users" want."
I couldn't have said it better---Completely agree.
Regards to all.
29 • #17 (by michael on 2008-10-27 12:50:48 GMT from United States)
I fully agree with #17 and for what it is worth I think KDE is just turning too much towards a "bling-bling" DE. Not even E17 takes such drastical "improvements".
I for my part even decide to stay with Gnome or XFCE for the most time. Also I find it rather a pity that users are not given a real choice on their KDE behaviour (in relation to #17 statements), since most KDE3 apps are not supported or updated at all. So you just do not have the option to stick with KDE3.
Good writing Ladislav, thanks again for making my Monday a little brighter! :-)
30 • Re:Three or Four (by AlanBCohen on 2008-10-27 13:05:08 GMT from United States)
IMO, you have somewhat over simplified with only three groups of users. One other group (where I would classify myself) are those who have chosen a distribution for reasons other than the windows manager and simply use the default for their system. I have no objection to KDE 4, but don't want the hassle of changing until it becomes the default for my chosen distro. I rely on my distro's maintainers to make that decision for me.
31 • Group 5: KDE to Gnome Users (by Sam on 2008-10-27 13:13:17 GMT from United States)
Don't forget those of us who used to be avid KDE** users until KDE "4.0" hit. Then we switched to Gnome.
**Although I really don't like the direction KDE 4.x is taking, I must confess my love of Okular.
32 • Mandriva Wireless (by paul on 2008-10-27 13:16:22 GMT from United States)
I reloaded Mandriva 2009 (Gnome), and found the wireless to be working just fine. My problem was an expectation of the setup presentation to follow that of windows (ducking!!). I didn't finish the process. Mandy '09 works just fine. As does SuSE Beta. RTL8187B is supported in the latest kernel. Yay!
KDE4 is somewhat like Gnome. I really liked Kcontrol, as many times it was the easiest way to fix problems. I have often switched to KDE to fix problems that would have required much more effort had I stayed in Gnome. I think I can still find that flexibility in KDE4, but it seems to be scattered in different places.
33 • KDE 4.1.2 (by Lizard on 2008-10-27 13:16:30 GMT from India)
I request the "KDE4 is buggy/unstable" crowd to try KDE 4.1.2 before posting any more reviews/posts. On my OpenSuSE 11.0 machine, KDE 4.1.2 is as stable as KDE 3.5.9. It would be a huge mistake to think that KDE4 is still in the same state as 4.0.0 was. And regarding the features, don't confuse KDE4 apps with KDE4 itself.
34 • YaST (by Lizard on 2008-10-27 13:18:25 GMT from India)
I've always thought that YaST stands for "Yet another Setup Tool". Am I wrong?
35 • Debian (by Kid Rock on 2008-10-27 13:20:11 GMT from United States)
I run Debian Lenny. Debian has always been my main system. I installed Kubuntu 8.10 in a VM just to play with KDE 4.xx
What a horrible experience. Used Kuser to setup another user. Could never login as that user. Always received an error.
For me, I will take 'leading edge' over bleeding edge anyday.
36 • Clinging on to KDE3 (by PP on 2008-10-27 13:25:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
In general I like new stuff, but I've been a bit worried about KDE4. Latest Linux Format magazine article put me off even further: (1) No desktop folder? I'm so accustomed to using one. (2) Konqueror not the default file manager. This is my fav piece of software evah..
So my attitude is a bit "If it aint broke don't fix it", but will go to KDE4 in the next 6 months anyway, maybe I will get used to it..
37 • Editorial != opionated rant (by Tom on 2008-10-27 13:26:21 GMT from Germany)
Seriously, we all know you don't like KDE4 but this is pretty pathetic.
KDE4 works great for me and a lot of other people. It can do things KDE3 just cannot! Some apps aren't ported yet .. so what?
Worst distrowatch weekly so far. Well done.
38 • kde4 (by rich on 2008-10-27 13:32:01 GMT from United States)
Debian Lenny or Mepis for stability. Mepis 8.0 is looking real nice and Mepis has always worked extremely well for me since 2003.
You can install KDE4.1 on Lenny (backports).
I'm running KDE4 on debian unstable with experimental KDE4 packages on 32 and 64 bit machines and like it. It does have its quirks but is very usable and getting better all the time, I much prefer it over KDE3.5 or Ubuntu 8.10 (gnome).
For info on installation on Debian go here
39 • I like KDE 4.1 (by Jared on 2008-10-27 13:46:28 GMT from United States)
Works fine for me. I like the comments made by #13, very true. Love the widget Folder View.
40 • Re: 37 • Editorial != opionated rant (by Ariszló on 2008-10-27 13:58:40 GMT from Hungary)
"KDE4 works great for me and a lot of other people. It can do things KDE3 just cannot!"
Yes, you can use folder view to monitor remote folders and it has all kinds of desktop effects. If you need features like that then KDE4 is for you. Personally, I prefer a traditional desktop.
41 • Re: LinuxExpoLive by Barnabyh (by Andrew Yeomans on 2008-10-27 13:59:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'd blame the showing on poor marketing of the event. I'd come along to a number of the previous years shows, I also monitor many relevant news lists; but your posting was the first I'd seen about the show, absolutely no other advertising or invitations. If I had been an exhibitor I'd have strong words with the organisers.
42 • "....Intrepid should really be delayed..." (by jack on 2008-10-27 14:03:00 GMT from Canada)
Noobies will apparently be unable to access internet to find solution to problem
43 • KDE4 (by anonymous coward on 2008-10-27 14:05:54 GMT from United States)
I'm a "mandy" type, and KDE4 has forced me to take a look at Gnome. Gnome is rock solid right now, so I'll just stay there for a year or so. Linux is blessed with diversity!!!
44 • KDEx (by Rob on 2008-10-27 14:07:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
FWIW, I've lost count the times I've switched between KDE3, GNOME, Xfce and briefly, KDE4.
The problem is often down to available applications. For instance, I like audio production software but prefer GNOME/Xfce desktop (at present). Ardour not withstanding, some big hitters (Hydrogen, Rosegarden, LMMS,Qjackctl etc) use
QT libraries and do not naitively fit with the GTK DE experience.
So I try KDE3 and it's ok, but now.. duh KDE4. Here we go again...
As a Ubuntu user (Intrepid), I find the main distro to feel more accomplished than its derivatives - subjective I agree.
Maybe in the future I will migrate to KDE4 for a unified QT experience, apps permitting.
So far though I'm not impressed with a lot of reinventing of the wheel that has taken place. Take Adept package manager for instance.
What the hell's gone on there? Adept (KDE3), was much more intuitive. Why Dolphin AND konqueror.. Seems overkill to me. As for KDE4 customising, well I'll enroll for college. Lol :P
Anyway, great distrowatch as ever. Looking foward to Ibex gold release. :)
45 • KDE 4 (by rel at 2008-10-27 14:10:11 GMT from United States)
I am a KDE user going way back... I always wanted to like Gnome, but just couldn't get used to it... then I saw KDE 4 and the direction it was going and I finally found that reason to get used to Gnome.
Now I'm finally a happy Gnome user thanks to the new KDE DE.
@31 - I'm right there with you.
46 • Ladislav is probably mentally old (by Lamislav on 2008-10-27 14:10:34 GMT from Germany)
Ladislav is acting like a change-hating old fart. KDE4 tries to do a lot of things differently and so it will probably never be exactly like KDE3.
If you cannot adapt to change you are mentally old regardless how long you are on this planet.
KDE4.1.3 kicks ass, because for the first time Linux is on the forefront of innovation on the desktop. And KDE 4.2 will just rule.
Actually the more I think about it the more I want people like Ladislav to not like KDE4. It would suck if change-hating people like him would be the audience the KDE developers would cater to.
He can compile his own KDE 3.5.10 will into the 2010s for all I care (good luck with arts though). It will always remain open source. So good for him.
47 • RE:42, Not common (by Eddie G. Wilson on 2008-10-27 14:20:08 GMT from United States)
Jack, from what I read it looks like its a problem with the kernel and that the problem happen on just one box. I have had no such problems with Intrepid. I don't think a delay is necessary. Just my opinion.
48 • KDE4 and distros (by Sokraates on 2008-10-27 14:22:57 GMT from Austria)
KDE4 or bust. ;)
I've used KDE4 since I think 4.0 Alpha 2. Those were the wildest times. The stability issues have disappeared (in my case) since around 4.0.4.
Then there are the missing apps, as some commenters have already remarked. Personally I don't mind using KDE3-apps to fill that gap. In the end, that's just what most of the distros do anyway (e.g. KNetworkManager in Intrepid).
The thing that bothers me most are missing GUI-configuration options (mostly missing options in systemsettings). While I know how to change the settings without a GUI, a lot of users don't.
Regarding the distros, I'm running Kubuntu Intrepid since Alpha 5 and I'm thoroughly happy. Even more so than with Hardy in it's current state. Hardy does not crash or behave abnormal. It just doesn't feel right: some quirks and minor bugs here, some slowness there. Well, thank heavens Intrepid is nigh.
On the other hand I'm eagerly awaiting openSUSE 11.1. No matter how well Kubuntu does, SUSE will, in my eyes, always remain *the* KDE-distro. It's fun to see what they have done to KDE4 and it will be even more fun to see, what their vision of KDE4 will look like when 11.1 is out. At least they don't have to worry about systemsettings. Thank you YaST. :) (and I still refer to it by its original name: "Yet another Setup Tool")
By the way: Is the link to distrowatch in the release announcement of openSUSE 11.1 Beta 3 permissible by DW-standards?
49 • Ladislav and change... (by davemc on 2008-10-27 14:25:59 GMT from United States)
I have thoroughly tested both KDE 3 and 4 and I must say that KDE4 really is fairly stable right now, at least on Intrepid. In truth, I experience plenty of instability on KDE3.5.9 with apps crashing frequently, hangups, and sometimes just plain ol' hard lockups. None of this craziness occurs when testing the latest stable/testing GNOME versions recently on Intrepid. I am not a big fan of either DE's, but I really do think that GNOME just seems to be put together much better and seems to have a much smoother flow to it than KDE. These are all usability issues more than anything else, but the relative instability that always seems to plague KDE much more than GNOME for me always pushes me towards the latter.
50 • #46 (by Ariszló on 2008-10-27 14:26:58 GMT from Hungary)
Apart from its SuperKaramba-like desktop (which itself is quite old technology), KDE4 is not that radically different from all other traditional desktops. If you feel too young for a traditional desktop then dump KDE4 and go for Sugar: http://www.sugarlabs.org/
51 • On "releasing alpha code under a stable version number" (by Martin Ultima on 2008-10-27 14:30:32 GMT from China)
> Secondly, by releasing alpha code under a stable version number, the distributions are more likely to include it in their releases than if it was called, say, 3.9.90 or 4.0.0-alpha1. This way more users would try the latest release, the argument goes, which should contribute to faster bug reporting and fixing. What the KDE 4 development team has done was a dangerous precedent, perhaps an experiment, so let's hope that this kind of release mechanism will be an exception rather than a rule in the open source software world.
I've been doing that for years -- with my entire distribution! The fact is, during the two beta releases, there were *maybe* three known new users, and most of the bugs were my own discoveries. It wasn't until the final release that I started hearing about things like incorrect video hardware detection and broken PPPoE; at least for a small project like mine that lack's Shuttleworth's money and marketing power, nobody bothers using it until it looks "stable".
Of course, my own view of the free software world is that there *are* no stable releases; as long as there's backwards-incompatiblity and regressions (in performance, security, functionality, or the kernel Makefiles randomly deleting important headers), the only "stable" open source projects are the ones that have ceased development.
52 • On "releasing alpha code under a stable version number" (by Martin Ultima on 2008-10-27 14:32:40 GMT from Denmark)
> Secondly, by releasing alpha code under a stable version number, the distributions are more likely to include it in their releases than if it was called, say, 3.9.90 or 4.0.0-alpha1. This way more users would try the latest release, the argument goes, which should contribute to faster bug reporting and fixing. What the KDE 4 development team has done was a dangerous precedent, perhaps an experiment, so let's hope that this kind of release mechanism will be an exception rather than a rule in the open source software world.
I've been doing that for years -- with my entire distribution! The fact is, during the two beta releases, there were *maybe* three known new users, and most of the bugs were my own discoveries. It wasn't until the final release that I started hearing about things like incorrect video hardware detection and broken PPPoE; at least for a small project like mine that lack's Shuttleworth's money and marketing power, nobody bothers using it until it looks "stable".
Of course, my own view of the free software world is that there *are* no stable releases; as long as there's backwards-incompatiblity and regressions (in performance, security, functionality, or the kernel Makefiles randomly deleting important headers), the only "stable" open source projects are the ones that have ceased development.
53 • @ 52 (by Martin Ultima on 2008-10-27 14:33:35 GMT from Denmark)
Oops, sorry for double-posting (well, triple-posting now ;-) Internet connection went screwy.
54 • @ 53 (by Ariszló on 2008-10-27 14:36:18 GMT from Hungary)
It happens when you click Reload after submitting your comment.
55 • KDE Still Sucks Big Time!! (by burpnrun on 2008-10-27 14:36:41 GMT from Canada)
Quote: "People that haven't used Kde4 since it first came out should really give it a shot again"
Sorry, pal. The KDE gurus wasted my time by declaring 4.0 to be production quality. So I installed it, suffered, and waited for 4.1. Same POC. So I had to backtrack, and re-install with 3.5. Time, effort and rising anger which could have been easily avoided if they had told the truth.
The KDE fanfolks can fool/lie to me once, maybe twice. But after that they can go and pound salt. I will stay with ANY distro that has 3.5.9/10, since I'm not fond of liars. It works wonderfully, has years of application functionality that works, and is stable. I thought Ladislav was too kind to the KDE fanfolks. "Dangerous precedent" is hogwash ... they out-and-out lied to the user community, even backtracked and claimed later that they hadn't said it was ready for prime time! Vaughan-Nichols caught them out on that, with their own press release!
56 • I'm sold on Debian! (by Ultra on 2008-10-27 14:41:53 GMT from Canada)
I installed Debian Lenny about a month ago and I can't say enough good things about it. I did the network install (using a daily build) over my Atheros wireless card and it worked flawlessly. Boot time is 30 seconds from grub to fully loaded desktop with Pidgin and some extra applets, I'm totally impressed. It has handled almost every media type I've encountered with the default codecs installed. Again I'm impressed because typically I've had to enable other repositories and reinstall various components with other distros to get any multimedia working! Firefox 3 cold-starts in less that 2 seconds, OpenOffice Calc cold-starts in 3 seconds.
This is definitely a keeper for me. I highly recommend trying Lenny.
My hardware is a 1.2Ghz Celeron, 1GB RAM, 32 GB solid state drive.
57 • KDE 3 or 4 (by ray at 2008-10-27 14:56:59 GMT from United States)
FWIW - I've not even looked at KDE4. I gave up on KDE in favor of GNOME a couple of years ago. It simply seems more professional, more usable and faster.
58 • another dead linux? (by joey on 2008-10-27 15:00:21 GMT from United States)
tried momonga but the repository is dead so no upgrades
is there a fedora one that works?
the site has no answer to that
59 • KDE 4.x and 3.x (by Andrew P. Dickerson on 2008-10-27 15:06:10 GMT from United States)
Many newbies have inform me that KDE eases the transition when coming from closed source and proprietary systems. The ability to choose your own desktop, and not just desktop themes, is one of Linux's greatest advantages. I am running a distro with a LXDE ( http://www.lxde.org ) desktop on a very old Dell laptop. Like someone said earlier, diversity is great!
60 • KDE4: the huge missed oportunity (by Ariszló on 2008-10-27 15:25:39 GMT from Hungary)
Being too innovative is not always a winning strategy:
61 • KDE4 (by Carl on 2008-10-27 15:30:14 GMT from Spain)
Quite a tendentious article there Ladislav. Congrats, It is stuff like this that makes the community drift apart.
I am running KDE4 on Arch and on MEPIS, and it performs great. Yeah, some sore points remain in 4.1, but that is not the point. The point is that people like yourselves, the opinion leaders, should not go for the easy points, stir up some sh*t and revel in the attention they get. Same goes for SJVN btw.
Instead, you ought to balance your words, and point out how the KDE dev team have dared to completely start from scratch in order to lay a proper foundation for the future. Sometimes you need a revolution instead of evolution. KDE4 is not mimicking KDE3, but is taking a different path. If that means some people get disappointed, so be it. I have a lot more respect for people that detect the need for change and act accordingly, than for others that bide their time hoping that the future does not catch up with them.
62 • KDE 4.1: Only minor issues (by evdvelde on 2008-10-27 16:10:20 GMT from Belgium)
The article is outright ridiculous:
On KDE 4.1: "While progress was obvious, it still barely qualified as a beta release."
==> Not a single real issue is being given and I, as many other KDE4 users it seams, can state KDE 4.1 is quite stable. Although KDE4.1.2 still has some missing features, none of them are showstoppers and very few are a bit annoying. There are some growing pains, but the changes were radical of course. It runs very smoothly on my archlinux.
On KDE 4.2: "KDE 4.2 (currently scheduled for release in January 2009) might roughly correlate to a release candidate"
==> Pure guess work without grounds, makes one wonder about the intentions of the writer: write a serious article or just to slander KDE.
And so on... I really hope the next distrowach weekly is of higher quality.
63 • On defence of KDE decision from a new user. (by Raymundo Dionicio on 2008-10-27 16:34:30 GMT from Mexico)
Sooner or latter a platform has to be rewriten from the ground up
Taking along the best of the philosophy and learning from the former one.
Not doing so is in detriment of keeping the code agile, secure, structured, maintainable...
Those who has enough the money or has a great and numerous beta-testing community can afford the luxury of an intensive beta testing phase.
Those who has not, has to go the way of KDE.
Users, the first and second groups, are the ones who are going to make KDE4 a great platform. Please insist, report, complain, reboot...
KDE in a humble move should call the releases 4.0.0, 4.0.1, 4.0.2 remarking they are still at .0
64 • To all gnome fanboys (by Anonymous on 2008-10-27 16:42:29 GMT from Spain)
I hope that when the time comes to Gnome to do the hard hard transition to GTK 3, that KDE users won't so stupid as you guys... And I hope Gnome learn something from kde4 process btw.
KDE 4.1 has a great user experience and its very stable IMWO as a desktop user.
Hope the best for Gnome, but right now is a very boring DE. In GTK ecosystem I prefer Xfce...
65 • user (by hdaz on 2008-10-27 16:45:01 GMT from United Kingdom)
how is a simple user not going to confuse KDE4 apps with KDE4 itself.????
66 • @64 (by Stuart on 2008-10-27 17:00:15 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Hope the best for Gnome, but right now is a very boring DE."
That's precisely why I like it! :D It's dependable, stable, and doesn't change very much. I think after a project reaches a certain maturity and usability, they struggle to find new features to add, there's only so far you can take something. The new versions of Photoshop and Microsoft Office are a case in point, the Ribbon is a nice UI improvement perhaps, but at the end of the day, it performs the function of a word processor much the same as the last version.
67 • KDE 3 versus 4 (by Joe Sixpack on 2008-10-27 17:00:52 GMT from United States)
It's not about what version of KDE you choose, it's about how well your distro puts it all together. openSUSE using KDE 4.1.2 is more than usable, I'd recommend it to anyone.
One thing I did like is SUSE shipping amarok 1.4 instead of 2.0 beta. Little things like that help the end user experience.
68 • KDE versions ? (by some one downunder on 2008-10-27 17:01:43 GMT from Australia)
Lots of people are in such a hurry for KDE 4.x.x to become stable and expect so much.
No one (except the oldies) thinks to compare how long it took to go from KDE 1.x (stable) to KDE 2.x (stable)
Or to go from KDE 2.x (stable) to KDE 3.x (stable)
How can any one expect KDE 4.x (stable) to be any of the previous versions ?
Even Ladislav has not bothered to research it up and post a comparison at here at DW :-(
I am sticking with KDE 3.5.9 myself until KDE 4.x.x becomes truly stable, I just want to use the GDT - not be a tester for ....... need I say more.
PS. When I started using Linux distros all I could have was Gnome or KDE 1.2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE this would be a starting place for research
69 • BS (by Joe Sixpack on 2008-10-27 17:05:09 GMT from United States)
"Despite clearly not being ready for the prime time, it's hard to blame KDE for deciding to release an alpha code with a stable version number."
Here we go again with more KDE Fud from distrowatch.
Again, GCC and the Linux Kernel both shipped with "stable version numbering", and no one cried about it. This is nothing but complete BS, and you know it. In the OSS community, it' stable when they tell you it's stable.
70 • Re: 68 (by some one downunder on 2008-10-27 17:05:17 GMT from Australia)
How can any one expect KDE 4.x (stable) to be any different of the previous versions ?
sorry about that.
71 • Codeweavers Crossoffice free on Tuesday (by Chris on 2008-10-27 17:22:07 GMT from United States)
looks like crossoffice will be free on tuesday.
72 • KDE 4.1.2 (by Heinrich on 2008-10-27 17:22:09 GMT from United States)
I too find KDE 4.1.2 very stable. The Folder View and Quick Access widgets are major productivity boosters for me. Dolphin has been improved, and you still have access to Konqueror.
Having desktop effects without having to add another compositing layer (like Compiz Fusion) is also nice.
With OpenSuse and KDE 4.1.2, you even have the choice to set up your desktop in the traditional single desktop paradigm of the past.
None of the new features are hard to learn. I think some those who are staying away from KDE 4 because of 4.0 would change their minds with 4.1.2.
73 • Ladislav is full of shit (by Tom on 2008-10-27 17:36:44 GMT from Germany)
And his brain is hardwired to KDE2002.
Noone can help him.
74 • KDE4 (by IMQ on 2008-10-27 17:39:21 GMT from United States)
I had been suing KDE4 under Mandriva 2009 for a couple weeks at least, and frankly it did not impressed me. Although I have to say that Mandriva did a good job of putting together the KDE4 presentation.
I am more of the 3rd group of KDE users, therefore I have a couple options at the moment: using the fantastic Debian Lenny (which I installed on one partition) or stay with the recently releases of distros with full support for KDE 3 until... whenever.
Did I say Debian Lenny is fantastic? Oh yes, I did! :) You ought to try it. You don't have to wait for the final release. Just download the weekly builds.
IF, and that is a big IF, KDE 4 turns out not what I would like, I will be looking forward to XFCE, Fluxbox, Openbox, or LXDE. I believe just because KDE4 being different does not mean it is better than KDE3. Time will tell.
BTW, I like the way LinuxMint 5 Fluxbox CE is put together. Congratulations to the release team!
There you have it. My 2-cent opinion.
Hey Ladislav, thanks for the work in keeping up the DistroWatch.
Just a note to let you know that I am one of the many users who appreciate the work you do for DW.
75 • KDE 4 (by Sergio on 2008-10-27 17:44:07 GMT from Mexico)
Tried KDE4 when it was released, and it was extremely buggy and unusuable to me, but liked the direction it was taking.
Was going to wait until KDE 4.2 to try it again, but I guess I will try Intrepid Kubuntu (have not tried Opensuse, Mandriva or Fedora since I feel more at home with Debian derivatives distros) just to see how much KDE4 has improved, even tough I'm almost sure I will stick with the forthcoming Mepis 8 with KDE 3.5 as my main Linux distro:
Lenny + KDE + almost everything configured to my liking :D
76 • KDEwatch (by capricornus on 2008-10-27 18:05:55 GMT from Belgium)
@ Tom from Germany
Are you too young to be here? Too little educated? Only a shitty brain can produce shitty talk like you do. Shame on you.
@ Ladislav and KDEwatch, well, yesterweek it was MANDRIVAwatch. I hope to get a GNOMEwatch week too. I avoid K, I like G and mostly XFCE better. G behaves like a 50-year old obese grandpa: you know what it is going to do next.
@ Ladislav: thank you for all the energy you spend every week. Keep up the good spirits, especially in those times evil walks the streets, with a pumkin on its head, like that Tom no doubt still does.
77 • KDE 4 (by Duhnonymous on 2008-10-27 18:06:42 GMT from United States)
I just want to echo what others are saying:
KDE 4.1 is great, and it's a complete solution per se. However, I'm sticking with Xfce until KDE 4.2 (or until serious apps like K3b actually move to KDE 4).
78 • KDE 3.5 works so well for me. I cannot keep KDE 4.0 or 4.1 working! (by Distrowatch Reader at 2008-10-27 18:07:10 GMT from United States)
I will use 3.5.
If I constantly wanted to fix, or fuss with, or even re-install a bugy desktop I would USE MICKEYSOFT VISTA!
I started with Knoppix.
Many years ago.
It was still in German.
Vass is dass?
Dass is Linux.
79 • KDE4 vs KDE3 (by Gigi on 2008-10-27 18:09:44 GMT from Singapore)
KDE4 is such a big paradigm shift that people "find it hard" at first. However, after a few days of usage, it kind of grows on you that you find it difficult to work with anything else. Even the most dogmatic supporters of KDE3.5 would agree that KDE4.1 is a whole lot more stable and feature-rich than KDE4.0.
It is just a matter of time before world domination!!! ;-)
80 • No subject (by hihi on 2008-10-27 18:17:04 GMT from Finland)
One of my favorite argument is "KDE4 is like crap so i have to use gnome now. I just can't use KDE3.5 anymore because KDE4 exist."
81 • @ 79 (by Ariszló on 2008-10-27 18:18:30 GMT from Hungary)
It depends on which features you focus on. Yes, it has folder view and Kickoff has a Search field but Konqueror is no longer the killer app it used to be.
82 • @ 80 Strawman (by Ariszló on 2008-10-27 18:24:02 GMT from Hungary)
No one says that. What is said is that KDE3 will not be supported forever. Some distributions like Fedora 9 already do not support it.
83 • KDE 4 (by john frey on 2008-10-27 19:29:20 GMT from Canada)
I think the article is well balanced and reasonable. It describes the range of experiences and users quite well. While there may be subgroups and other groups of users the synopsis describes very well where KDE4 is at.
My experience is that the screen goes black with KDE4 whenever I click on the menu button. Even though I would like to spend some time on the new interface that's a showstopper for me. There's simply no point in going further if something so essential is buggy. I could try distro hopping but I'm not that interested so I stick with KDE3 for now.
We all know Ladislav hates KDE, fixes the HPD for PClinuxOS (well not anymore I guess), hates Mandriva (or is biased in favour, he's been accused of both) writes anti-Gentoo FUD and generally hurts the whole Linux community. What a joy it must be to run a popular website.
Once upon a time the human race just couldn't get enough rabid criticism. That's why we made the internet. Don't believe the lies that spiritual evolution is about peace, joy and serentity. It's about writing the ultimate flame.
84 • KDE, DeskstopBSD (by Landor on 2008-10-27 19:31:28 GMT from Canada)
I've personally decided to take a different route for my desktop. I don't like the changes in KDE 4. I do understand it's considered where the desktop is going, but it's just not what it was and I don't want to be stuck with a deadend DE in 3.5XX. I'm still working on what I'll use, it's taking some time too, working on getting all the functionality I want built into each, then seeing how that really fits with what I want. Right now it's a toss-up between Fluxbox, LXDE or E-17. But for the present, I know it won't be KDE 4 in the future at least thus far.
I have no doubt there's a lot of like-minded people out there looking for alternatives as well.
I noticed a commenter last week said that they wish DesktopBSD would pick things up, I agree, as their front-end to the ports system is better than the PBI end of things as the person stated as well. It's good to see they're working on their build, it's just too bad it will be KDE 4 oriented.
Keep your stick on the ice...
85 • watch your mouth (by aaron on 2008-10-27 19:37:59 GMT from United States)
It's absolutely your right to disagree with Ladislav. And it's absolutely your right to post you opinion on DWW. But there is simply no excuse for attacking the man personally or using profanity. Show some manners and your arguments might carry more weight.
I know the Internet is rife with rude comments, but this is ridiculous. Not one of you has paid a dime for DWW, yet you think it appropriate to say things like "Ladislav is probably mentally old" or "Ladislav is full of shit." Grow up and act like a responsible person (even if you aren't one in real life).
86 • No subject (by Joe The Plumber on 2008-10-27 19:40:47 GMT from United States)
With crap like this in release notes for popular distributions how can anyone argue about the stability of any given desktop environment? I thought Linux was supposed to work on older hardware and wasn't pushing people into the forced obsolescence treadmill. Oh that's right, let's blame the hardware manufacturer for the x-server breaking it's API, again. And while we're at it any word on when we'll have a stable API for the kernel or is that just a pipe dream?
The 71 and 96 series of proprietary nVidia drivers, as provided by the nvidia-glx-legacy and nvidia-glx packages in Ubuntu 8.04, are not compatible with the X.Org included in Ubuntu 8.10. Users with the nVidia TNT, TNT2, TNT Ultra, GeForce, GeForce2, GeForce3, and GeForce4 chipsets are affected and will be transitioned on upgrade to the free nv driver instead. This driver does not support 3D acceleration.
Users of other nVidia chipsets that are supported by the 173 or 177 driver series will be transitioned to the nvidia-glx-173 or nvidia-glx-177 package instead. However, unlike drivers 96 and 71, drivers 173 and 177 are only compatible with CPUs that support SSE (e.g. Intel Pentium III, AMD Athlon XP or higher). Systems with older CPUs will also be transitioned to the nv driver on upgrade.
87 • KDE3/KDE4 (by Franc on 2008-10-27 20:01:50 GMT from United States)
KDE4 on FreeBSD works but I don't see why should be better than 3.5.10 which I use. As some people wrote I will stay with 3.5 as long as will be maintained and than (if no earlier) swith to Xfce. IMO is sad why KDE and GNOME becoming more and more Windows like? Why I so many applicatons integrated? KMail for example. Now if someone want KMail and has GNOME for example he needed to install half of the KDE and vice versa...
88 • # Re:17 • Desktop vs. widget container (by Anonymous on 2008-10-27 20:17:09 GMT from Spain)
I'm so agree with you. I don't like kde4, too much hassle for me. And also remains me the things I hate about Vista.
Also it gets more difficult to change from windows to linux, at least is happening to me, I'm hesintant to install Mandriva 2009, just because of kde4.
89 • I don't know (by Nobody important on 2008-10-27 20:37:44 GMT from United States)
I used KDE4 for an hour and you could have said it was KDE3 and I would have believed you. I saw no difference.
I care very little about the DE. As long as it works, I'm fine. I really don't see the need to get territorial about this; I use Ubuntu and if it were to switch to KDE4 for 9.04, I wouldn't care much. GNOME, KDE, whatever, as long as I get OpenOffice.org and can run OpenArena than the distro's fine by me.
Debian's looking good; 8.10 is going to be a good release. Yay for everyone!
90 • re 88 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-27 20:57:41 GMT from Canada)
I'm hesintant to install Mandriva 2009, just because of kde4.
Mandriva is DE agnostic. You can install almost any desktop environment you want. I have Mandriva 2009 + KDE 3.5.10 on two computers and they both work perfectly.
91 • RE: 88 (by IMQ on 2008-10-27 21:03:00 GMT from United States)
Mandriva does offer KDE3 if your prefer it over KDE4.
Or you can try out Debian Lenny which will have KDE 3 when it is finally released.
Debian Lenny and Debian Multimedia Repository have everything I need.
92 • Japanese live CD distro? (by Jesse on 2008-10-27 21:13:45 GMT from Canada)
Hello open source fans. While I'm a long time user of various Red Hat based distros, I've never been much of a distro hopper. To that end I'm hoping one of you knowledgeable people can help me. I'm looking for a live CD that supports both English and Japanese. Languages would have to be switched either on the fly or during boot time. Does anyone know if Knoppix does this.... or another similarly functioning live CD? I would experience more, but I'm on a very slow Internet connection. Suggestions?
93 • KDE 3 vs 4 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-27 21:38:10 GMT from Canada)
I belong to the 4th group, using Gnome :).
94 • @42 • "....Intrepid should really be delayed..." (by Pinky on 2008-10-27 21:38:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
'Tis a pity you didn't read the whole page, as three hours before your post here, the last message stated that the fix is in the procps package (and will be in the final release)
The problem is also not Intrepid specific, or even really Linux kernel specific. It seems that the 2.6.27 Linux kernel is the first TCP stack to actually implement a 12 year old feature correctly (thus highlighting borken router code!)
95 • RE: Japanese Live CD (by ezsit on 2008-10-27 21:48:20 GMT from United States)
I believe Berry Linux is a Japanese/English live distro built on Fedora. The distro is usually within the top 100 here on Distrowatch.
96 • Offtopic (sorry): Crossover Office for free on October 28th (no joke!) (by chemist on 2008-10-27 22:18:52 GMT from Germany)
I've just read it here:
97 • WhoYa for DWW (by Verndog on 2008-10-27 22:30:01 GMT from United States)
Ref#85 - Thanks Aaron, my view exactly. They haven't given a dime to DWW and yet somehow manage to spew forth such vile! Doesn't the author have a right to express his own views. I think he leaves these comments intact to show what kind of immature people show from week to week.
After reading the DWW I was getting excited about the coming weeks. Ubuntu has given Linux community a surge in popularity, regardless of what you think of the distro,
Ubuntu 8.10 is why I was able to break my Windows addiction. I also have Debian Lenny installed(prerelease), and now Mandriva Gnome 2009. I installed the Ubuntu Alpha Intrepid, but framebuffer is missing and few other oddities.
Right now I'm really enjoying Mandriva 2009 Gnome and I don't give a squat about the KDE squabbles.
Thanks again Ladislav for such a fine weekly read. I'm sure the trash comments are in the minorities here!
98 • KDE 4.1 (by Amy on 2008-10-27 22:32:08 GMT from United States)
The only issue I have with it is the widget desktop.
I would much prefer a normal desktop where I can put my must used icons.
Besides for that I like kde 4 and 3.
I am using a version of gentoo which does not have kde 4 yet but on one of my computer it does have kde 4 and is uring pcbsd.
99 • KDE (by Anonymous on 2008-10-27 22:47:30 GMT from United States)
I am one believes that Open Source releases should be named in such a way that the user can easily identify stable releases.
The KDE team is doing a great job, technically. I look forward to using KDE 4 when it is ready (4.1 wasn't). It's their release naming policy that needs attention.
Developers who are deciding between 3 and 4 should be concerned about their image. For now, I use KDE 3 as one of the factors that indicates whether a distro might fit my needs.
Thoughtful and thought-provoking Distrowatch article.
100 • Great Article! (by Bob on 2008-10-27 23:22:07 GMT from Austria)
Pretty nice to read an article which matches my opinion/experience almost 100%. The Vista clone KDE4 is not ready for everyone despite favorable comments from certain users. I pretty much doubt that any of the KDE 4 supporters ever tried to use a dual-head configuration, 'cause this simply does not work yet (on 4.1.2) - just as an example.
But at the same time I am also quite sure that KDE4.x will work much better one day. So I won't try to blame KDE developers for the apparent KDE4 disaster - they obviously need(ed) some more time. But I do blame all those responsible for prematurely introducing KDE4 into their new distro without waiting until it is mature enough. We'll probably see lots of new Gnome users from now onwards.
Just a little warning to those who like to stick with KDE3: I recently upgraded from 3.5.9 to 3.5.10 and KDE decided to limit maximized windows to the size of the smaller of my two monitors (full screen mode on the bigger one is now actually a window). This clearly shows where we are heading: long road to KDE4.stable and a little vacuum on the KDE3 side.
101 • RE: 73, And you were saying? (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-10-27 23:57:24 GMT from United States)
Come on Tom. I'm sure being the computer whiz that you are you can give us a reason why you think that. L.B. and his opinion about Kde 4.x.x t is full of shit. If you can give us a reason why you think so then your point might me valid. If not, then you may be the one full of shit.
102 • KDE4 is already better than KDE3.5.x (by Mark on 2008-10-28 00:30:26 GMT from Australia)
Since KDE 4.1.2, KDE 4 has surpassed KDE3.5.x. KDE 4 is faster and more responsive, unless you try to use it with nVidia proprietary drivers. That particular bug is however due to the nVidia drivers, and not KDE4.
KDE 3.5.x does have the apparent advantage that some KDE applications that are available for KDE 3.5.x are not yet ported to KDE 4.1.2, but that isn't really an issue because the KDE 3.5.x applications will run fine under KDE 4.1.2 anyway.
If anyone thinks that the arts sound server, which is still used in KDE 3.5.x, is "rock solid" ... I think they possibly need to take another look at it. It would be a double shame if such a person disliked KDE 4 because they mistakenly thought it was unstable due to a bug in nVidia's drivers.
103 • No subject (by BioTube on 2008-10-28 00:54:42 GMT from United States)
When I tried KDE 4.0, I spent five minutes trying to figure out how to get the damn panel to stop centering everything(I keep my window list in a separate panel at the top). When KDE 4.1 came out, I gave it another try(this time keeping it in a VM instead of making the mistake of upgrading my real system). I still couldn't find a way to stop the panel from centering everything. Not to mention the fact that KControl has been gutted and what's left redone in the style of Windows. I'm sorry, but if this is the "right direction", my compass must be broke. In my book, the KDE devs have joined M$ in the "they'll take whatever crap we publish because it's OUR crap" club and like M$ are suddenly faces users who decide they want a DESKTOP, not a paradigm redefinition.
This crap has already driven me to LXDE.
104 • potty mouth (by Granma on 2008-10-28 01:09:54 GMT from United States)
Oh! All this potty mouth and nastiness!
Everyone should just sit down and have a nice cup of chamomile tea.
105 • Chamomile tea (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-28 01:17:51 GMT from United States)
Good call, Granma. Chamomile tea also cures headaches and tummy aches as well.
Make it strong and enjoy.
To enhance the medicinal effects, have a couple of snails with it.
(just kidding) :O)
106 • Japanese live CD distro? (by delphi on 2008-10-28 01:34:49 GMT from Australia)
My needs are similar to yours - I use Japanese version of Ubuntu:
( http://www.ubuntulinux.jp/ ).
You could also try Berry and if you need something smaller there's also Japanese version of Puppy.
107 • Bugs & instability that are not due to KDE4 being blamed on KDE4 (by Mark on 2008-10-28 01:42:39 GMT from Australia)
There is quite a bit of disagreement in the comments about the degree of stability, maturity & bugginess in KDE4.
This is IMO due to a mis-allocation of blame for some bugs. It is quite well documented that proprietary Linux drivers for nVidia graphics cards (a) do not work with older nVidia cards and recent Xorg releases, and (b) do not work with KDE4.
This is NOT the fault of KDE4 or Xorg ... it is due entirely to nVidia and the binary, proprieatry drivers for Linux that nVidia supply.
Comments like these are examples:
john frey: My experience is that the screen goes black with KDE4 whenever I click on the menu button. Even though I would like to spend some time on the new interface that's a showstopper for me. There's simply no point in going further if something so essential is buggy.
Joe The Plumber: With crap like this in release notes for popular distributions how can anyone argue about the stability of any given desktop environment? I thought Linux was supposed to work on older hardware and wasn't pushing people into the forced obsolescence treadmill.
Where:  = The 71 and 96 series of proprietary nVidia drivers, as provided by the nvidia-glx-legacy and nvidia-glx packages in Ubuntu 8.04, are not compatible with the X.Org included in Ubuntu 8.10. Users with the nVidia TNT, TNT2, TNT Ultra, GeForce, GeForce2, GeForce3, and GeForce4 chipsets are affected and will be transitioned on upgrade to the free nv driver instead. This driver does not support 3D acceleration.
Yes, those observations are in all probability quite correct ... but they are simply not problems with KDE4, people!!!
If you have a nVidia card, and you still want to try KDE4 ... just use the nv driver.
If you want to complain instead ... complain to nVidia.
108 • KDE (by Guy on 2008-10-28 02:10:30 GMT from United States)
I to am considering the switch to Gnome. KDE4 is poop :)
109 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-10-28 02:48:42 GMT from Canada)
26 - its done when its done is for slow anal types
release often and releases early is the open source way
110 • Why all the hate? (by madal on 2008-10-28 03:49:18 GMT from United States)
I frequently distro-hop. I tried F9 when it came out, with KDE4. Nothing really worked. Then they had their server infiltration issue, and I never got to try F9's 4.1 before reloading a new distro out of frustartion. I then tried 4.1 on my portable when Arch migrated. Dolphin is (CURRENTLY) a horrible replacement for Konqueror. MUCH slower, frequently crashes, and does not have NEAR the functionality of Konqy. I could get little work done with 4.1, so I nuked the Arch and went with Sidux. And I LOVE Arch!
I loaded Mandy 2009 on the former F9 box. Again, I cannot get the usability that I find with 3.5. Try Kplayer 0.7.2 (KDE4 version) as a "for instance." It crashes EVERY TIME I use it. Funny thing is, it crashes on F9, Arch, and Mandy 2009 (on different boxes!). When Sidux/Debian Sid went to Kplayer 0.7.2 (on KDE 3.5), it did the same thing, crashed every time! so clearly this is not a KDE4 issue. Debian/Sid has actually gone back to 0.6.3 in their repos. I even tried to use the KDE3.5 variant in Mandy 2009. But with so much of the KDE4 code base already in place, I found 3.5 to function quite poorly for me. My point is, not only is KDE4 buggy, but so are the apps that are being written for it, i.e. Amarok 2, etc. It's a double whammy. Buggy DE, buggy apps... there's just no winning.....YET. I have little doubt that 4.x will be great someday, but, for now, it "just don't work." So why all the hate? If 4.x works for you, I am happy for you!
Kplayer is just one example, but I have found more than a few. K9copy for KDE4, Amarok2, Kid3. Working with multimedia in KDE4 is just a no go.
I do have a box that I keep running w/ Opensuse 11.0/KDE4. It is constantly being updated to newer and newer KDE4 versions. But while I am finding slow, incremental improvements in it's functionality and usability, it's still not yet on par w/ 3.5. So, I belong to Group 3a. While I will continue to use 3.5, I will keep playing with 4.x, until it's ready for ME.
PLEASE, fix Dolphin!
111 • PCLinuxOS 2009 = KDE 3.5.10 (by Sal on 2008-10-28 04:06:30 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, I couldn't agree with you more. Kudo's to you for having the guts to "tell it like it is".
As those who took a look at our first public testing release of PCLinuxOS 2009 already know, we are sticking with KDE 3.5.10. Sometime after the final release we will probably offer KDE 4.x.x packages for those who have to have it. but for now we prefer to offer the stability and feature richness KDE 3.5.10 as our default DE.
Never fear KDE purists, we will be here for you.
112 • KDE 3.5 on openSUSE 11.0 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-28 04:33:27 GMT from Germany)
> openSUSE almost followed suite, but in the last minute, just before the final release of version 11.0, it added KDE 3.5 as an alternative KDE desktop.
That's misleading: KDE 3.5 has been added late in the development process to the installation desktop selection screen but has been available in the distro repository and on DVD and installable via pattern for the whole time.
113 • No subject (by Mark on 2008-10-28 04:36:09 GMT from Australia)
In reply to madal
>My point is, not only is KDE4 buggy, but so are the apps that are being written for it, i.e. Amarok 2, etc. It's a double whammy. Buggy DE, buggy apps... there's just no winning.....YET. I have little doubt that 4.x will be great someday, but, for now, it "just don't work." So why all the hate? If 4.x works for you, I am happy for you!
My point is this: KDE 4.1.2 is not buggy, and Dolphin is not slow.
If you try to run KDE 4.1.2 on a system with nVidia drivers, you WILL get poor performance and crashes ... of the nVidia drivers.
That is not, however, KDE 4 being buggy and slow ... it is the nVidia drivers being buggy and slow when running KDE4. How do I know this to be so? Because KDE 4.1.2 works absolutely fine on my system with an ATI card, and it also works absolutely fine on my system with an Intel card, and on my system with an older, legacy nVidia card it works fine with the open source nv driver, but not with the proprietary nVidia driver. That is how I know.
KDE 4.1.2 itself is faster and snappier than KDE 3.5.9 on the same hardware (as long as you avoid the proprietary nVidia drivers). I have founf it to be as stable as KDE 3.5.9 on the same hardware.
So whay all the "hate" you ask? There is no hate here ... just mere corrections of mis-representations of KDE 4.
As far as KDE APPLICATIONS go ... some of those are indeed still in development for KDE4. I haven't had any problem with Amarok beta, but I know that K3b isn't ready yet for KDE4. So just install the phonon-arts plugin, and use the KDE 3 versions of K3b, K9copy, Amarok etc for whatever you want. You can even have the KDE4 version and the KDE 3.5.x version installed concurrently if you like.
There is no loss of functionality going from KDE 3.5.x to KDE 4.1.2, and (as long as you avoid the proprietary nVidia drivers) no apparent loss of stability, and you gain in speed and flexibility.
Finally ... to those people claiming they are moving to GNOME ... beware of Mono dependencies! Mono libraries are very likely to be part of what Microsoft would claim as an "undisclosed liability of Linux users to Microsoft IP".
114 • KDE4 similar to Vista (by RollMeAway on 2008-10-28 05:14:58 GMT from United States)
I believe the comparison is viable. With the difference being the development time. KDE4 development is moving at a fair pace, with the community nugging its direction. The next version of Vista will be called Windows 7 to be released about the middle of 2009, without user input.
Both are missing applications and drivers. Users with few applications and standard hardware are happy with both. Users that use many application, like to tweak their system, and have a good mix of hardware hate both.
Unhappy vista user may move to apple, if they are rich, or stay with XP.
Unhappy KDE4 users may move to gnome or stay with KDE 3.5.x.
And life goes on.
115 • There is no point staying with KDE 3.5.x for the sake of applications. (by Mark on 2008-10-28 05:48:36 GMT from Australia)
> Both are missing applications and drivers. Users with few applications and standard hardware are happy with both. Users that use many application, like to tweak their system, and have a good mix of hardware hate both.
> Unhappy vista user may move to apple, if they are rich, or stay with XP.
> Unhappy KDE4 users may move to gnome or stay with KDE 3.5.x.
KDE4 does not miss drivers ... drivers are not part of KDE. KDE is a desktop environment, not an OS.
Name one driver where you can use KDE 3.5.x and not KDE 4? Apart from the proprietary nVidia driver which runs with KDE4 but has a bug, and for which an alternative driver (the open source nv driver) works fine anyway ... all of the other underlying drivers of the kernel work the same for KDE4 as they do for KDE 3.5.9 ... since they are in fact the exact same kernel and drivers.
KDE4 does not miss applications (compared with KDE 3.5.x). Any application which you can run with KDE 3.5.x. you can still run the exact same version with KDE 4.1.2 (even if the KDE 4 version of that application is not yet ready).
KDE4 allows you to tweak your system. This is in fact the whole point of themes and Plasma widgets. KDE4 is more "tweakable" than KDE 3.5.x.
Why do people persist in trying such blatant FUD against KDE 4, for some reason?
116 • @133/Mark (by madal on 2008-10-28 06:01:14 GMT from United States)
I remember when F9 came out and there was a largish uproar about the nVidia binary drivers being unusable with KDE4, but I thought it was because of the new implementation of Xorg, and not KDE per se.
In any event, I have never installed nVidia drivers when working w/ KDE4 out of fear, with one exception, that being the Opensuse box I mentioned. It seems that the drivers (I believe they are patched by the Suse crew?) work just fine, but I have not tried any direct comparisons. I have been using the generic "nv" Xorg driver. Is this also a possible source of my problem(s)? Does all nVidia hardware perform poorly, even without the binary?
But, FOR ME, on quite a variety of hardware, I am unable to extract the same flexibilty, usability, stability, or speed from KDE4.x that I now have in KDE3. I truly do not believe that I am "mis-representing" KDE4, just relating my experiences.
117 • @92. Mandriva One (by Mandriveiro on 2008-10-28 06:45:37 GMT from Spain)
To 92: Mandriva One is what you need. It supports Asian languages, like Japanese. Just go to http://torrent.mandriva.com/public/ and download the jp-zh version, either KDE or GNOME torrents:
Of course, Mandriva One is live CD. Also, you may want to have a look at http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/Bittorrent
118 • No Gtk3 will kill Gnome! (by Anonymous on 2008-10-28 08:34:19 GMT from Spain)
I will laugh at the end (gtk 3)
119 • Here's a happy Gnome user ! (by Caraibes on 2008-10-28 09:49:44 GMT from Dominican Republic)
This is Gnome/OpenBox (without Mono of course) for me...I usually try KDE twice a year, for about a week... Never liked it... Much less now...
120 • Re: 115 • There is no point... (by Ariszló on 2008-10-28 10:04:04 GMT from Hungary)
"KDE4 is more tweakable than KDE 3.5.x."
Nevertheless, it is not that easy to turn it into a "traditional" desktop. It is claimed that full screen folder view widget is just like that. Your wallpaper will get a darker shade but who cares?
Since the folder view widget does not have a maximize button, you can only maximize it by dragging its resize icon. It is much fun, you'll like it. Let's pretend you succeed. Will you have a traditional desktop? It depends. What if you do not absolutely hate widgets? A traditional desktop is primarily a maximized folder which optionally allows displaying some widgets. Now you want to add a nice analog clock plasmoid to your full screen folder view widget. Clicking inside the full screen widget won't do. Luckily, you can still activate the cashew and add the analog clock. Oops, it is in the top right corner of your maximized folder view. You want to move it somewhere else but you cannot! Never mind. You remove the folder view widget, move the clock, readd folder view, maximize it again and you are done. Straightforward, isn't it?
No, a full screen folder view widget is not equivalent to a traditional desktop. So you cannot tweak KDE4 to behave like KDE3.
121 • Something is wrong, because KDE4 is better than you claim it to be (by Mark on 2008-10-28 10:31:38 GMT from Australia)
> But, FOR ME, on quite a variety of hardware, I am unable to extract the same flexibilty, usability, stability, or speed from KDE4.x that I now have in KDE3. I truly do not believe that I am "mis-representing" KDE4, just relating my experiences.
I'm sorry, but that just isn't truly credible.
There are a very few minor things missing from the KDE4 desktop itself ... such as the ability to assign multimedia keys:
Khotkeys is unfortunately broken in KDE 4.1 ... this is a regression bug as it did work in KDE 4.0. This is a bug in the KDE desktop itself, as opposed to desktop applications.
Apart from relatively minor issues such as this, what can you not do in KDE 4?
Where is your claimed usability issue, for example? The kickoff menu perhaps? ... just set it in "classic" mode, or use Lancelot menu instead:
Neither approach suit you? Then try this ... unlock widgets, click the kickoff menu icon, type a couple of letters from a favourite application's name, (e.g. the letters "wr" from kwrite) ... then right-click on the "kwrite" item in the kickoff menu and select "Add to Panel".
Folderview perhaps? ... it is actually more powerful than the old "icons on the desktop" paradigm from KDE3.
Applications: a favourite application yours perhaps hasn't been ported yet to KDE 4 (say Amarok)? ... then just simply install the latest KDE 3.5.x. version of it.
I'm sorry, but I simply can't see any credible claim to "usability loss" in KDE 4.
KDE 4.1.2 is faster than KDE 3, BTW. Earlier versions of KDE 4 had some stability issues, but I haven't had any problems at all with KDE 4.1.2.
122 • KDE4, Nvidia (by Bob on 2008-10-28 11:09:06 GMT from Austria)
It was quite interesting browsing comments this week. We have a KDE war now instead of the usual Redmond vs. rest-of-the-world discussion. It is entertaining nevertheless.
I've got NVIDIA hardware and when installing a new distro I use 'nv' first, then I usually install 'nvidia' because 'nv' is a joke (waaay slower and none of the features I am after). KDE4 has crashed on me with the great free 'nv' driver as well as with the evil proprietary 'nvidia'. So more than 50% of us are probably using the wrong hardware, because KDE4 is already perfect - just some apps are missing and others don't work, correct? Why the hell is 'nvidia' then working perfectly with KDE3, XFCE, Gnome, etc., etc.?
123 • @post#14 by rollmeaway (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-28 11:11:20 GMT from United States)
I am wondering of the similarities we see 'tween KDE4 (which I like) and the Vista system are being developed that way intentionally. I am far from an expert in these matters (obviously.. have fun with that, flamers). :O)
KDE itself, going way back as far as I can remember using it, has always been in a Windows-like direction as compared to the other WMs Linux has had to offer.
Do the KDE developers read here in distrowatch? Have they posted about efforts to draw Windows users into Linux with a WM they can relate to?
124 • RE: 122 (by ladislav on 2008-10-28 11:59:40 GMT from Taiwan)
I was about to post something similar in response to the logic presented in post 113. The poster claims that the poor performance of KDE4 with the NVIDIA driver is due to a bug in the NVIDIA driver, not KDE4. How does he know? Because KDE4 works fine with his nv driver.
Using the same logic, I can easily disagree: No, it's a bug in KDE4. How do I know? Because KDE3 works fine with my NVIDIA driver.
So where is the bug? I don't know and poster 113 might very well be correct (yes, NVIDIA is the proprietary, closed-source, evil piece of software), but I don't think his logic is right. If A doesn't work with B, but works fine with C, the only thing we know for sure that there is no problem with C. But we don't have enough information to ascertain that the problem is with B and not A.
Or am I wrong?
125 • No subject (by Mark on 2008-10-28 12:12:59 GMT from Australia)
> Why the hell is 'nvidia' then working perfectly with KDE3, XFCE, Gnome, etc., etc.?
You would have to ask nVidia that question.
nVidia had this bug running for over a year, and made perhaps a dozen attempts to fix it.
I can't tell you why it was particularly bad for KDE4 (when no other driver was) ... because nVidia won't show anyone the source code!
126 • KDE4 (by Rich on 2008-10-28 12:14:23 GMT from United States)
I'm using KDE4.1 on Suse 11.0 and installed the Nvidia driver from Nvidia.org. Suse 11.0 seems very stable. I also have Kubuntu (8.10) with Nvidia and it too appears to running quite well (64-bit) version on my other system also using Kde 4.1. My video card isn't the latest and greatest Geforce 9.I'm using Geforce 7 cards. I dunno what everyone else is using but my video cards and software are working well with Nvidia and with Suse and Kubuntu.? What cards are everybody using that gives them so much problems with KDE4 and Nvidia?
127 • nVidia driver bug which affected KDE4 more than anything else (by Mark on 2008-10-28 12:21:23 GMT from Australia)
ladislav on 2008-10-28
> So where is the bug?
The long-standing bug was in the proprietary nVidia driver for Linux, according to the experts on-line. It is in the "Xrender API" ... whatever that is. Apparently it has been causing "dog slow" 2D rendering performance for certain operations for over two years.
Over the past two years the typical linux desktop has changed a lot.The XRender API has replaced the old X drawing model and composition introduced new visual possibilties.This also means that 2D drivers are now stressed much more and in different areas than 2-3 years ago.There are ongoing complains about poor 2D performance of NVidia GPUs, about 2 years ago it started with people complaining about slow text rendering with subpixel-antialiasing, but the more programs use the XRender api, the more complaints are posted.KDE4 which uses XRender a lot and also relies on more advanced feature is really slow (I would call it almost unuseable), also FireFox3 is no joy with nvidia's binary drivers. Often nouveau drivers with their EXA architecture offer better 2D performance than the binary drivers themself.There are also people calling nvidia to open-source their 2D driver, or at least provide specs to the nouveu project, because the think open-source projects could do it a lot better and are not that revenue-driven.Most of the discussions happen in the unofficial nvidia linux support forum:http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=14It would be great if you could write a short arcticle about this topic, maybe it would change things to the better and make nvidia recognize that although people buy the cards because of 3D scores, they don't tolerate dog-slow 2D desktops."
128 • Wher is the nVidia bug? (by Mark on 2008-10-28 12:34:57 GMT from Australia)
"I'm absolutely interested what nVidia has to say about this. I become more aware of this problem whe I started testing KDE 4.1 beta 1. I couldn't figure out why my poor laptop with integrated ATI graphics and FOSS drivers is runing just fine and on my dual core machine with nVidia 7600GS everything is so slow. Digging further into this people also told me that KDE 4 is built on Qt 4 toolkit and Qt 4 relies much more on modern XRender architecture which appears to be dog slow on nVidia. Later I found out about a simple XRender Benchark and this one only proved how many times faster integrated ATI is compared to mVidia and their bad drivers. This has come to get out so more people is avare of this and nVidia starts doing something to correct this bad performance."
XRender benchmark apparently shows it to be in the XRender architecture, which Qt4 relies heavily on, and which is many times worse on nVidia than on other graphics cards.
129 • RE: 86 • No subject (by Joe The Plumber (by Béranger on 2008-10-28 13:10:52 GMT from Romania)
The 71 and 96 series of proprietary nVidia drivers, as provided by the nvidia-glx-legacy and nvidia-glx packages in Ubuntu 8.04, are not compatible with the X.Org included in Ubuntu 8.10. Users with the nVidia TNT, TNT2, TNT Ultra, GeForce, GeForce2, GeForce3, and GeForce4 chipsets are affected and will be transitioned on upgrade to the free nv driver instead. This driver does not support 3D acceleration. Users of other nVidia chipsets that are supported by the 173 or 177 driver series will be transitioned to the nvidia-glx-173 or nvidia-glx-177 package instead. However, unlike drivers 96 and 71, drivers 173 and 177 are only compatible with CPUs that support SSE (e.g. Intel Pentium III, AMD Athlon XP or higher). Systems with older CPUs will also be transitioned to the nv driver on upgrade.
Dear Joe: what is not clear in the word proprietary? The community is NOT mandated to support and to fix issues in the proprietary driver!
Oh, the free driver doesn't support 3D acceleration? But you knew what the risks were when you bought that video card, didn't you?
130 • Japanese distro (by Jesse on 2008-10-28 13:23:26 GMT from Canada)
Thank you to the folks who were kind enough to reply to my post asking for info on a Japanese-localized distro. Those are bery helpful.
131 • Now it's a three'some (by Verndog on 2008-10-28 14:44:45 GMT from United States)
It's changed a bit from KDE4 vs Ladislav or KDE4 is better than slice bread, to KDE3 vs nVidia vs KDE4 vs nVidia. No it's nVidia's fault, no KDE4's to blame. There's a song in here somewhere...
Here's the bottom line for all of you KDE4 proponents. Someone else - anyone, installs a distro that locks in KDE4 and that KDE4 distro doesn't work, or doesn't work well, then that someone moves on. End of story. You can stand on the tallest box and yell the loudest, or howl at the moon, but in the end your just yelling or howling. That "someone" is all ready gone to try something else that works. Period!
132 • @131 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-28 15:11:52 GMT from France)
So KDE4 is to Linux what Linux is to Windows?
133 • Low End & Older Systems (by Andrew P. Dickerson on 2008-10-28 15:41:41 GMT from United States)
With all this talk about KDE 4.x vs. 3.x one fact still remains, speedwise they don't perform as well on older equipment when you stack them up against Xfce, Enlightenment or LXDE. TinyMe, a Mandriva/PC LinuxOS remaster works nearly flawlessly with no gothchas and is very responsive on my older P-lll systems. So for those of you who have an older system I suggest you try a desktop that does not use Gnome or KDE. TinyMe is a good place to start.
134 • This just in ... Free Codeweaver (by Verndog on 2008-10-28 15:41:59 GMT from United States)
Cheap Gas = Free Codeweaver. Today only! Get get while you can:
It's true. I just downloaded the free Codeweaver. The servers are overloading right now. Be patient.
135 • re 133 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-28 16:01:55 GMT from Canada)
The problem with MiniMe, TinyME, NothingMe and other so-called light distros is that you can do custom minimal install of Mandriva with Fluxbox, IceWM, LXDE, XFCE, etc. and enjoy Mandriva's configuration tools and the huge Mandriva software repositories and good, friendly support in Mandriva's forums. The same goes for Debian derivatives or Slackware derivatives or any other major distro derivatives.
136 • @ 86, 129 (by Martin Ultima on 2008-10-28 16:20:28 GMT from United States)
@ 86: It truly is ridiculous, although NVIDIA's packaging is itself a shameful mess. Why do we need three mutually-incompatible versions of the same driver, anyhow? Can't you make the one driver support *all* the hardware generations?
@ 129: Specifically,
> Dear Joe: what is not clear in the word proprietary? The community is NOT mandated to support and to fix issues in the proprietary driver! . . . But you knew what the risks were when you bought that video card, didn't you?
That's the problem with the open-source community. Everyone gets so caught up in the philosophical bullshit that nobody can be bothered actually improving the code. Why *should* we have to "know the risks" before buying a video card? If this OS is so great, why can't it work with the hardware I *already have*?
137 • @130 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-28 16:39:34 GMT from Canada)
To throw one more in the pot, Mandriva has full Japanese localization available; for the line (One) edition, you'd want the jp-zh image. http://torrent.mandriva.com/public/mandriva-linux-one-2009-GNOME-jp-zh-cdrom-i586.torrent , or it's available on any MDV mirror in the /official/isos/2009.0 directory.
138 • @137 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-28 16:40:33 GMT from Canada)
Whoops, sorry, I didn't notice someone had mentioned it before, I queued this message up last night before that got posted. Now I should say something productive to make up for the waste of space.
....damn, it's before 10am, I'm boned. :)
139 • should all distros have the same results ? (by glyj on 2008-10-28 17:36:03 GMT from France)
I think so.....:-(
140 • @7 NVIDIA drivers for 8.10 (by John Richards on 2008-10-28 20:08:14 GMT from United Kingdom)
It may possibly be true, as you say that Nvidia drivers are not available for Ubuntu 8.10, 32 bit. I don't know about that. But it is certainly not true of the 64 bit version. I have upgraded from 8.04 perfectly successfully this afternoon, without the slightest hitch, and everything (so far, at least!) is working perfectly. It even installed an UPGRADE of the Nvidia driver, from 173 to 177, though it offered to keep 173 if so desired. 177 seems to work perfectly though. No FUD please!
141 • @136 nVidia (by Lizard on 2008-10-28 20:55:45 GMT from India)
> If this OS is so great, why can't it work with the hardware I *already have*?
Because the world is full of people like you who make the idiotic _assumption_ that it is _possible_ for OS-makers to make their OSs work with a piece of hardware for which the hardware manufacturer doesn't specify any programming information. Since the majority of people lost common sense (just like you did), nobody is forcing these hardware manufacturers to specify programming information. And that makes things difficult (if not impossible) for OS-makers. It sounds crazy that people could sell hardware and not tell you how to use it, but it is exactly what is happening these days. So before blaming the OS-maker, verify whether your hardware's programming specifications are publicly available.
142 • @136 Hardware and OS (by Lizard on 2008-10-28 21:08:32 GMT from India)
Just to give you an analogy:
Let's say you have all the money on earth and you have an excellent electric appliance manufacturing unit. Can you a manufacture a compatible electric plug for an electric socket that I've manufactured even if I refuse to specify the details like distance between holes, depth of holes, etc.? The same is the case with OSs. If the hardware vendor sells hardware without specifying any information like "send 11001 to the hardware, it will do this... send 10010 to the hardware, it will do that, etc.", how do you expect an OS to work with it? You might ask: Then how does Windows work? It works because the drivers are not written by Microsoft but by the hardware manufacturer.
143 • Desktop Environments (by Stuart on 2008-10-28 21:55:37 GMT from United Kingdom)
I think some people take the KDE4 vs. KDE3 argument a bit seriously. We're all free to use what we want because Linux is fortunately desktop/window manager agnostic, and I for one am grateful of that.
144 • Still the blame is driected to the wrong place. (by Mark at 2008-10-28 22:33:08 GMT from Australia)
> Here's the bottom line for all of you KDE4 proponents. Someone else - anyone, installs a distro that locks in KDE4 and that KDE4 distro doesn't work, or doesn't work well, then that someone moves on. End of story. You can stand on the tallest box and yell the loudest, or howl at the moon, but in the end your just yelling or howling. That "someone" is all ready gone to try something else that works. Period!
What you say has, tragically, a good deal of truth in it. The real problem here is that it is ***NOT*** KDE4 that is broken, but it is KDE4 that is copping a bad rap.
To illustrate: Firefox 3 is another program that suffers very poor performance on Linux systems using the nVidia proprietary binary driver, compared with its performance on any other Linux systems or indeed on any other OS. This poor performance is due wholly to the nVidia binary drive and its longstanding XRender bug. Yet if you go on-line and read forums, you will see quite a lot of arguement over firefox along the lines of:
... "Firefox 3 performs terribly on Linux, but it is fine on Windows for the same hardware. Is Mozilla neglecting the Linux version?"
Then someone else chimes in with ... "Firefox 3 flies on Linux ... what are you smoking?"
Sheesh! This poor performance is the nVidia driver bug, people ... it has ***NOTHING*** to do with Firefox 3.
Same applies to KDE 4. It is ***NOT*** a bug, nor poor performance, nor instability, of KDE 4 itself.
Andrew P. Dickerson:
>With all this talk about KDE 4.x vs. 3.x one fact still remains, speedwise they don't perform as well on older equipment when you stack them up against Xfce, Enlightenment or LXDE.
If you use hardware and drivers that do not suffer from the nVidia Xrender bug, KDE 4 actually flies. All that is required is graphics hardware with a GPU ... that has been standard on graphics hardware for a long, long time now. Oh ... and you need a driver that is not badly broken as well.
The graphics GPU has been arounnd for about 15 years, and it is present on MOST hardware still running. Up until now, desktop software has not taken advantage of the graphics GPU that is present on nearly all PCs still running. GNOME, Xfce, LXDE, Enlightenment ... still do not take advantage of it.
KDE 4 does take advantage of it. Assuming the drivers actually work (which is a fair enough assumption for software to make, after all) ... then KDE 4 will be FASTER than GNOME, Xfce, LXDE, Enlightenment ... even on equipment that is up to 15 years old ... as long as it has a GPU and a working driver.
145 • Blaming the OS for hardware problems (by Mark on 2008-10-28 23:00:32 GMT from Australia)
> Why *should* we have to "know the risks" before buying a video card? If this OS is so great, why can't it work with the hardware I *already have*?
In the Windows Vista world, the arguement put forward on-line was EXACTLY the opposite: "Why should Vista cop such bad press when the hardware manufacturers have been too lazy to write a working driver for it?"
Double standard there.
Please understand ... the proprietary nVidia binary driver for Linux which has the XRender bug that in turn causes very poor performance of programs that rely on GPU rendering (such as KDE 4 and Firefox 3) ... that driver is ***NOT*** part of the "Linux OS". It is a nVidia program ... that is what "proprietary" actually means.
If you want a Linux driver for your nVidia hardware that ***IS*** part of the wider FOSS effort then choose between either of these two:
146 • How bad is the nvidia bug? What is affected? (by Mark on 2008-10-29 00:20:17 GMT from Australia)
As for how bad, the developer of Enlightenment desktop, known by the handle "Rasterman", apparently found XRender to be up to 50 times slower than his existing rendering code in Enlightenment on his nvidia card:
Now that is a whopping performance hit in anyone's language.
So what does it affect?
Apparently, apart from badly affecting Qt4 (and hence KDE 4), it also affects Firefox 3 and ... wait for it ... OpenOffice.
147 • Отлично (by Winter on 2008-10-29 00:27:19 GMT from United States)
Текст оставил сложное, даже в какой-то степени неоднозначное, впечатление… Даже не знаю, что сказать… Нужно время, чтобы обдумать прочитанное.
148 • Further links about the proprietary nvidia performance problem (by Mark on 2008-10-29 00:57:44 GMT from Australia)
Obviously, this is a very well known, frustrating and irritating issue.
Horrible 2D performance in Linux with the nVidia drivers. 169, 173 and 177 drivers are all faulty.
Firefox scrolling/switching tabs performance is horrible.
Resizing windows/moving windows/scrolling in windows is slow/laggy.
KDE4 is almost unusably slow.
Xrender performance is horrible.
Compiz Fusion very choppy, laggy minimize/maximize.
KDE4/QT4 apps especially are very laggy and unresponsive. Example: button press, dragging/resizing windows, combo boxes, menus are all slow.
Are we convinced yet, people?
Is it time for a retraction of the original article in Distrowatch weekly, perhaps?
Maybe an apology to the KDE4 developers as well wouldn't be out of place.
149 • @140 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-29 01:01:59 GMT from Canada)
The issue isn't the 177.xx drivers (for GeForce 6xxx and later) or the 173.xx drivers (for GeForce FX 5xxx series), but the 96.xx drivers (for GeForce 2MX, GeForce 3 and GeForce 4) and the 71.xx drivers (for GeForce and GeForce 2 non-MX). The 96.xx and 71.xx drivers do not work with the X server Ubuntu is shipping, apparently. That's what the note says, anyhow.
150 • kde (by paul on 2008-10-29 03:06:41 GMT from United States)
I am currently downloading kde3 for pcbsd. So far, it has taken 14 hours, and it is not done yet. Gnome only took 6 hours. is kde4 so radically different that it takes this long? Maybe the new system is completely different? What is happening?
151 • Ref#150 download PC-BSD (by Verndog on 2008-10-29 05:04:09 GMT from United States)
It only took me a couple of hours. How are you downloading it and at what speed. Is there any indication stating time left or are you using a torrent?
I downloaded three CD's instead of the one DVD.
Actually that is my only experience using KDE4. It was very stable. Bear in mind I don't have an nVidia card though.
152 • @148 (by aaron on 2008-10-29 07:27:38 GMT from United States)
'Is it time for a retraction of the original article in Distrowatch weekly, perhaps? Maybe an apology to the KDE4 developers as well wouldn't be out of place.'
Performance is far from the only issue plaguing KDE 4. Some of the others -- controversial UI choices, lost functionality while apps are being ported to Qt 4, definition of an x.0 release -- have nothing whatsoever to do with hardware and won't go away when the nVidia bug is squashed.
153 • @124 nVidia (by Lizard on 2008-10-29 07:42:05 GMT from India)
Ladislav, your logic is correct. But it is not just logic which is making people "coming to conclusions" about drivers. nVidia's drivers (prior to version 177.80) implemented the X extension - RenderCreatePicture very poorly. KDE3, GNOME, XFCE, etc don't make use of the RenderCreatePicture extension and use legacy APIs. Because of this, the problem was never identified by nVidia. KDE4, however, makes use of this modern extension and thus gets problems with nVidia hardware. All the problems, however, are fixed in nVidia driver version 177.80. KDE4's now perfectly working on nVidia machines. In fact, I'm typing this from one such machine.
From nVidia's changelog for 177.80:
* Improved support for RENDER masks, as well as RENDER repeating
modes and transformations, for video memory pixmaps.
* Added accelerated support for RENDER convolution filters for
video memory pixmaps on GeForce 8, 9 and GTX GPUs.
* Improved support for RENDER operations with the same source
and destination; this should performance in some
situations, e.g. when dragging Plasma applets in KDE4.
* Improved GPU video memory management coordination between the
NVIDIA X driver and OpenGL implementation; this should
improve performance with e.g. the KDE4 OpenGL compositing
154 • Upgrade to Ubuntu 8.10 (by silent on 2008-10-29 07:57:56 GMT from Hungary)
I tried to upgrade from Ubuntu 8.04 to 8.10 just after reading the article in the weekly newsletter. At the end I managed it. Well, I am sure that in a couple of weeks there will be lots of improvements...
155 • @140 Nvidia drivers for Ubuntu 8.10 (by John Richards on 2008-10-29 08:59:41 GMT from United Kingdom)
It does appear that there is an error in the 32 bit Ubuntu upgrade with Nvidia cards. After successfully upgrading my 64 bit configuration, I have tried to upgrade the 32 bit configuration (on a different partition of the same machine). It appeared to succeed but on the reboot gave an Xorg error of a mismatch between the Nvidia module and driver. I have had to revert to a Partimage image of the 8.04 configuration, though the 64 bit setup is working fine. This is with a GeForce 6200 card, incidentally.
156 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-10-29 10:09:17 GMT from Australia)
>Performance is far from the only issue plaguing KDE 4.
Sigh! Can't you read? How long does it take to get a point across to you?
Performance is not at all an issue plaguing KDE4. The performance issue is with the nVidia proprietary drivers.
Run KDE on a system with non-broken drivers (that is to say, on a system with a graphics card with GPU other than nvidia), and it performs significantly better than any other contemporary desktop.
>Some of the others -- controversial UI choices,
Que? With one click, you can re-set the kickoff menu to the "classic" KDE interface. Everything else is configurable to be the same as it was with KDE 3. What controversy? The only controversey that I can see is purely made up.
>lost functionality while apps are being ported to Qt 4,
You don't have to lose any functionality ... you can just as easily install and run the KDE3 version of whatever application if you prefer.
I have done exactly that on my system and it works just fine, thankyou. I am running KDE4 and I have absolutely zero loss of functionality over KDE3.
>definition of an x.0 release --
This is actually what you are supposed to do with FOSS software ... "release early, release often". This is the very reason why KDE 3.5.x applications are being kept up to date while KDE 4.x is going through its early releases. It is precisely the same reason why Debian, for example, comes in "experimental", "testing" and "stable" release versions:
KDE 3.5. is the equivalent of KDE "stable".
KDE 4.1. is the equivalent of KDE "testing".
Amarok 1.4.10 is the Amarok "stable".
Amarok 2 Beta 2 is the Amarok "testing".
The website http://amarok.kde.org/ has instructions for how you can get either version. Amarok 2 Beta 2 will run on KDE 4 only, while Amarok 1.4.10 will run on KDE 3 or on KDE 4.
Most FOSS projects do this. This is par for the course. Why would you expect anything different between the way that Debian releases, and the way that KDE releases?
>have nothing whatsoever to do with hardware and won't go away when the nVidia bug is squashed.
They have nothing to do with reality either, so you are probably spot on with your thought that they won't go away.
There is a strong suspicion here that these types of opinions on KDE4 are in fact astroturfing ... driven by an agenda ... since they are so characterised by unreason.
So I can imagine indeed that they won't go away.
157 • RE: 156 (by ladislav on 2008-10-29 10:25:59 GMT from Taiwan)
I am running KDE4 and I have absolutely zero loss of functionality over KDE3.
That's great, we are all very happy for you. But you do sound a bit like "Are you all crazy around here? I have zero issues with KDE4, so anybody who claims otherwise is either a liar or runs KDE 4 with the proprietary NVIDIA driver." Please go to the top of the page and re-read some of the comments. Many readers do have issues and they have absolutely nothing to do with NVIDIA.
Still, I appreciate your comments on the NVIDIA problem - I wasn't aware of it at all. Since you've done so much research on the subject, maybe you could put together a story on this for next week? Let me know.
158 • Many readers do have issues, you claim. Are you sure? (by Mark on 2008-10-29 11:17:35 GMT from Australia)
>Please go to the top of the page and re-read some of the comments. Many readers do have issues and they have absolutely nothing to do with NVIDIA.
OK then. Willco.
Posts numbered 4, 8 ... say issues are fixed and KDE 4 is now fine.
Post number 7 says nvidia proprietary drivers aren't available for his hardware (also an nvidia issue).
Post 5, 11, 21 ... all say they have zero issues with KDE4, and they think it is absolutely fine.
Post 13, 16, 20 says KDE4 is mostly fine and people need to re-evaluate KDE4.
Post number 9 says KDE3 ... but doesn't give a single thing wrong with KDE4.
Post numbers 15, 19 ... probably confused the nvidia driver stability issue with a KDE 4 issue.
Post number 22 is a concern for KDE 3.5.x
Ahhh ... I found one ... post 17 ... a personal preference issue. Ignores the fact that you don't HAVE TO put widgets on your desktop if you don't want to.
Another one ... post 25 ... poster says he/she has no time to learn KDE4.
Post 18 ... complains about Fedora being GNOME centric. Not a KDE4 issue.
Two weakish complaints in the first 25 posts? I think YOU need to re-read them.
159 • @post 147 (by Ronald Raygun on 2008-10-29 11:32:32 GMT from United States)
Относительно ваших сдуру слов (и мыслей): попытка Pravada для лож.
160 • Re: 158 • Many readers do have issues (by Ariszló on 2008-10-29 11:48:53 GMT from Hungary)
"... a personal preference issue. Ignores the fact that you don't HAVE TO put widgets on your desktop if you don't want to."
Yes, you do have to put folder view, a widget, on your desktop if you want to use it like a traditional desktop. You know, quite a lot of people like to save files on the desktop (default setting for Firefox) and work with them there without launching a file manager. Unfortunately, folder view is not an optimal replacement for a traditional desktop. Read #120 for details.
As for switching Kickoff to classic mode as suggested in #121 or #156, there is regression there: KDE4's Old Skool(TM) menu does not list recently used applications.
161 • ladislav (by ladislav on 2008-10-29 12:15:16 GMT from Taiwan)
Two weakish complaints in the first 25 posts?
Ah, so we went from "absolutely zero" issues to "two weakish" ones. That's progress - not a very rapid one, but progress nonetheless. Keep on reading, you still have 135 posts to go ;-)
162 • re 161 (by Vince on 2008-10-29 12:26:11 GMT from Netherlands)
Getting tired of this Ladislav ?? I can understand it...
163 • Canonical (by Klaus on 2008-10-29 13:27:34 GMT from Norway)
Have you read the comment about Canonical on Adam Williamson's blog:
164 • Thanks, KDE, for the choice (by davecs on 2008-10-29 13:48:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm sticking with KDE 3.5 for now, and it's great that KDE is still releasing fixes for it. It's also great that they have released KDE 4 in such a way that those who must have the latest of everything, can.
If enough functionality and stability for your requirements is included in KDE4, I say go for it. If not, stick with 3.5.x for now, unless you prefer to hack, submit ideas and bugfixes. Pick a distro which gives you what you want, there's plenty of choice. For me, I trust the PCLinuxOS developers to decide when KDE4.x is fit for primetime, but other opinions must be respected.
Whichever camp you are in, stop slagging off the others. M$ must be laughing all the way to the bank when they observe the infantile arguments between different factions in the FOSS camp.
All the guys providing free software, whether it's writing the code for a desktop system, or a program, or just assembling a distribution that you can get for nothing, deserve praise and support (unless they bring the whole movement into disrepute by completely screwing up).
165 • Long term Linux distro? (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-29 13:49:13 GMT from United States)
Can we look at the issue of how one or the other version/release of a distro (or even of a window manager/environment such as KDE or XFCE or Gnome) is better or worse than a previous release?
This is the most frustrating aspect of Linux, to me. I remember when it first occurred to me back in '04 when my SuSE 9.1 was so near perfect that I was certain that I'd never have to download another distro for my pc again.
Then I "upgraded" to 9.2. What a mess. :O( I hate to say it, but since that day 4 years ago we have not been able to get a stable, long term Linux on any of our computers! Not on that old pc, not on the new pc and not on the new laptop.
Now KDE itself is uncorking a version that seems problematic. Gnome was harder for me to configure, but it was solid back then, as was the old KDE.
Why do developers modify or outright abandon very good releases? Why do so many users continually have to struggle to find something that works? Reading these forums about the issues is quite enlightening as to the problems; we even have some here calling others "idiots" for expecting something good for their hardware!
166 • Ubuntu's speed and KDE4 persuasion (by Verndog on 2008-10-29 15:26:13 GMT from United States)
Please re-read post#139. It's in regard to how Ubuntu has taken a performance hit from previous releases. A good read:
Post #163 - Yes, I read the blog. that's the first time reading his blog. I just happen to stumbled across it. I understand some of his arguments, but I'm still glad Ubuntu is in existence. Mark Shuttleworth could have worked more closely with the Linux community, I just don't know how. He wanted to just compete with Microsoft. He most likely didn't think his plans would have such an impact on the Linux community. The other point I found was what if Mark Shuttleworth's money runs out or he just gets tired and quits?! The answer is Linux WILL survive. That's one of the benefits of so many distros. It was a good insight into how Linux is traded and how monies are made - and lost.
Regarding KDE4 and Ladislav needing to apologies. That's ludicrous.
* His computer
* His experience with KDE4 on said computer
* His webpage
If you want to defend KDE4 as a community, then do so in a mature manner. A lot of the comments I've read have turned me off of KDE4.
I use Gnome. If I were ever persuaded to use KDE4 it would come from more intelligent sources. Try to entice people to use it and not the gutter-talk that has permeated this site.
167 • @166 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-29 16:16:20 GMT from Canada)
"The other point I found was what if Mark Shuttleworth's money runs out or he just gets tired and quits?! The answer is Linux WILL survive. That's one of the benefits of so many distros. It was a good insight into how Linux is traded and how monies are made - and lost."
But that's the problem - Ubuntu is weakening the pool of distributions, not strengthening it. Of course Linux will survive, but it'll be in a weaker position than before, not a stronger. That's my argument.
Basically it boils down to: If the only viable models for end-user desktop Linux are a) completely volunteer-based and b) sugar daddy, what does that say about us?
168 • re 167 (by glyj on 2008-10-29 16:30:14 GMT from France)
Thats why I subscribe for Mandriva powerpack since Mandrake 9.2 I think...and will continue as I can afford for it (sorry for my bad english)
I can't code that much so I support the work done by Mandriva's guys.
169 • 167 (by Dick Cheney on 2008-10-29 17:20:54 GMT from United States)
Mandriva is a great distribution, and I've sung it's praises repeatedly, but...
When it comes to a business model, the software itself will always be free. What will customers pay for? Service/support, training, fast downloads of the iso, software, and security updates, the latest and greatest apps available for installation, extra polish that volunteers won't do, unique products, preinstalled Linux desktops.
I don't think your characterization is entirely accurate. It's unnecessarily negative. Is it easy to make money on free software? No, but it can be done, and it offers a lot of potential. I believe Mandriva has too much of "shrink-wrapped boxes" view of the software industry. For example, I'd happily pay for access to a fast download of all software, with constant (high quality) updates of apps available for 18 or 24 months. As it is, I see little differentiation between what Mandriva offers and what many other distros offer, so there is little reason to expect me to pay.
170 • No subject (by capricornus on 2008-10-29 18:26:51 GMT from Belgium)
What is it with my AND64x2 on Gigabyte and Nvidia?: the installation starts and immediately stalls. The usual reader would think I have a bad pc, but some OS's behave well, and others don't. Mandrake's PCLOS gives me everything + sound, and Mandriva, no sound with VLC, just like OpenSuSE 11: smooth and slow but no sound with VLC. I' m an eager tester, but should I buy another testing pc?
171 • re 170 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-29 19:23:10 GMT from Canada)
With Mandriva, have you tried to disable puldeaudio? You can do that in MCC (aka Configure Your Computer)
172 • @156 (by aaron on 2008-10-29 19:51:24 GMT from United States)
People here seem to think that Distrowatch Weekly is the only place in the technology world that KDE 4 is getting criticized, or that anyone who does so is part of some anti-KDE cabal.
Well Mark, you're going to have to add Nick Veitch to the list of co-conspirators. I happen to have a copy of the November 2008 issue of Linux Format magazine; in it Veitch reviews KDE 4.1, giving it a rating of 7 out of 10.
The opening paragraphs:
'KDE 4.0 was released in January this year, has featured in major distro releases like OpenSUSE 11 and Fedora 9 and even graced the cover of 'Linux Format,' but as anyone in the know really knows, it wasn't so much a full point release as an open beta. This shouldn't have come as a surprise -- the scope of the changes from the previous iteration of KDE was vast, so there was always going to be a certain amount of 'suck it and see.' For some, there was a little too much sucking, and while there was plenty to see in terms of whizzy desktop graphics, there was a lack of underlying functionality and integrated applications.'
From the conclusion:
'KDE 4.1 does deliver a more rounded user experience than the largely experimental 4.0 version. It is vastly improved, but whether you agree with the shift in direction of the user interface or not, you will have to concede that there is still a lot of work left to do on the functionality of the desktop. It still feels incomplete, although we know what a great effort went into it. A few hundred times better than KDE 4.0, but still has a few more miles to go to be comfortable.'
Now that I think about it, has anyone seen Ladislav and Veitch in the room together at the same time?
173 • RE 151 pcbsd (by paul on 2008-10-29 20:32:28 GMT from United States)
I was installing using "ports" (freebsd). The Gnome install worked, in that it is now a choice at the login screen. The KDE3 install put a bunch of stuff on the computer, but there is no option for KDE3 at login. I am not really obsessed with KDE3, I just wanted to see if it would load.
I have an nVidia care, GeForce 6200, It works jsut fine with KDE4. I runs Sauerbraten (my test for video cards) adequately.
BSD has come a long way, and PCBSD is cool. I suspect I will keep it until Fedora 10 arrives.
174 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-10-29 22:02:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
Adam W said: "Basically it boils down to: If the only viable models for end-user desktop Linux are a) completely volunteer-based and b) sugar daddy, what does that say about us?"
Well .. Interested tinkerer though i am, i admit that no matter how tempting a Distro may seem, for the reasons you give, I wouldn't stray from one of the 'Big Few' i.e. - Debian (for me), otherwise - if forced to - I'd go with Fedora, OpenSuse, *Ubuntu, or Mandriva - mainly because I want to feel sure I'm not getting dependent on some On-Man-band/Hobbyist' Distro that could disappear overnight some dark evening.
Nothing is guaranteed in those I mentioned either I guess.
And theres at least one in that list that I'd feel uncomfortable using - for well documented on many a discussion forum.
If the ubiquity (pun intended :) ) of *Ubuntu means that a few less popular Distro's fall by the wayside, would we really miss them?
Would 'Linux based OS's ' in general be at threat if there were 50% of the current number of Distro's? I doubt it.
175 • PS - post above .. (by DeniZen on 2008-10-29 22:03:51 GMT from United Kingdom)
was mine. Doh.
176 • 169, 174 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-29 22:34:53 GMT from Canada)
@169: well, you contradict yourself within your post already:
"the software itself will always be free."
"What will customers pay for?...the latest and greatest apps available for installation, extra polish that volunteers won't do"
Those are 'software'. That's part of my point: people used to pay for the big, independent, commercial distros - Mandriva (Mandrake) and SUSE - exactly to get the "extra polish that volunteers won't do". Now, generally speaking, they don't, because Ubuntu has made it the norm that you can get the latest and greatest apps, and all the polish, for free. No-one seems to wonder how this is going to get paid for, in the long term. Everyone's too busy going OMG FREE STUFF! AND PONIES!
Otherwise, your post makes some good points - and note that almost all the areas you mention are ones we already have offerings in. But the memo doesn't seem to have reached Canonical, does it? How many of those services do they offer? Where are their paid repositories? Their e-training system? Their tech support system? All Mark ever does is say the word 'services'. The only service sector they've gotten into in any major way is OEM deals, but it doesn't seem like they're making any money off that, otherwise he wouldn't be giving conference calls about how they're...not making any money.
Good thing they have a giant pot of free money, eh? And as long as the giant pot of free money keeps on giving, it makes life harder for a company which is actually trying to sustain itself by getting into all the things you mention. People keep asking us why we want them to give us money. Canonical conditions them to think they can get everything on a plate for free, forever. And a pony.
174: the problem is that the continued status of Ubuntu threatens more than two-bit distros nobody would miss. It makes life for Mandriva - the largest remaining independent commercial desktop Linux company - extremely difficult, although we're managing, just about.
Think about the current situation. What are the real major distributions? Look at the DW top ten. Mint's basically Ubuntu-with-illegal-bits; it wouldn't exist without Ubuntu. CentOS is a Red Hat clone. Damn Small is a niche distro.
So that leaves us with Ubuntu, SUSE, Fedora (Red Hat), MDV, Debian, and PCLOS. OK, PCLOS is more or less independent, but it's seemingly finding it tough to keep up with the pace of development (I hope I'm wrong on this and they get 2008 out soon and it's great, but still, I don't think it's easy for them right now). I don't want to be negative, but I don't think PCLOS as currently constituted is capable of being a true 'major' distribution in terms of driving the growth of Linux and keeping it in the public eye; it's more of a medium level distro, which provides a good experience for a keen user base. Which is a fine thing. I don't think that Ubuntu will ever kill off PCLOS, but I do think that as long as a distro like Ubuntu is around, PCLOS is more or less destined to be a sideline.
Debian is Debian. It'll keep on trucking and running on everything in the world forever. But it's always going to be Debian, and if it were enough for everyone's ambitions, Ubuntu would never have existed - and, probably, Mandriva and SUSE wouldn't have lasted very long. Debian just isn't what a lot of people want, for one reason or another.
Then Mandriva, which is obviously the best thing ever. :) OK, just kidding. We are, as I've said, basically the last remaining independent commercial desktop Linux. We're it.
Fedora is Red Hat's sandbox, and OpenSUSE is Novell's. They're both decent distributions. But, even ignoring the ideological issues relating to Novell, there's a danger with both: neither Red Hat nor Novell ultimately relies on regular desktop users - the folk who mostly read this site. Novell and Red Hat earn their crust on deployments of ten zillion seats, plus support, to large corporations. And what do they deploy? Not Fedora or OpenSUSE. Nope. RHEL and SLES/SLED. If you've ever used SLES/SLED or RHEL, you know it's not exactly the stuff most Linux enthusiasts would run on their systems. They are extremely stable and well-supported products that are, from the point of view of a desktop enthusiast, about two years out of date, and lacking all the Cool Packages they love but enterprises just don't care about.
So Fedora and OpenSUSE are not fundamentally the products that Red Hat and Novell hang their hats on. They exist for three basic reasons: tradition, marketing / public presence (as long as the Linux world has a significant component of enthusiast home users, it's worth having a product for them), and experimentation. They use Fedora and OpenSUSE to test out crap that might wind up in SLED or RHEL two years down the line.
Obviously, this position brings with it its own dangers. If it stops being of benefit to Red Hat or Novell to actively maintain a good distribution for desktop enthusiasts - they probably will. Sure, the community will take over, but it's still a big change. Some people think everyone would be better off if every distribution were a community distro, developed by volunteers without a profit motive - fine. But a lot of people don't want that.
So, if you look at the top ten distros, there's basically the artificially funded Ubuntu which has yet to prove it can be sustainably supported on a commercial basis, Red Hat's and Novell's sandbox distros, Debian, a second-tier distro (PCLOS), and the sole remaining major, conventionally-funded, commercial desktop distro (Mandriva). That's a precarious situation, and the artificial distortion caused by Ubuntu's funding model has a lot to do with how we got here.
177 • Adam's 176 (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-29 22:46:32 GMT from United States)
"So, if you look at the top ten distros, there's basically the artificially funded Ubuntu which has yet to prove it can be sustainably supported on a commercial basis, Red Hat's and Novell's sandbox distros, Debian, a second-tier distro (PCLOS), and the sole remaining major, conventionally-funded, commercial desktop distro (Mandriva). That's a precarious situation, and the artificial distortion caused by Ubuntu's funding model has a lot to do with how we got here."
What's with the importance of "..has yet to prove it can be ..supported on a commercial basis..?"
Is commerciality now a mark of success for Linux distributions?
Who did that to us? Who brought us that criteria for success of Linux?
178 • @177 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-29 23:16:24 GMT from Canada)
It's not - if you're a community distro, fine, you have a different marker of success. But Ubuntu is a commercial distribution: it's funded by a company and pays its staff. As a commercial distribution, it obviously has to prove it can fund itself; no giant pile of money is infinite. If it can't fund itself, it's not a sustainable proposition as a commercial distribution. That's the point.
179 • fall time ... in a parallel universe (by DeniZen on 2008-10-29 23:27:01 GMT from United Kingdom)
Interesting discussion points Adam, thanks. (and now Jerry's question too).
In a parallel universe -
I have a maybe/theory that there will come a tipping point, where a steady backlash wave breaks and crashes upon Ubuntu Beach.
Human Nature - 'we' love to build up - then tear down - anything that 'we' perceive that has become too 'big', too 'popular' too 'mainstream'.
I'd guess that these traits are likely to be evident within the 'community' that typifies Linux enthusiasts.
Ubuntu _could_ just be the first Linux based Distro to pass that tipping point. Ok its a maybe theory. I wouldnt be surprised if it happened.
180 • ref 179 (by Verndog on 2008-10-30 00:21:46 GMT from United States)
With your statement of "Human Nature - 'we' love to build up - then tear down - anything that 'we' perceive that has become too 'big', too 'popular' too 'mainstream'."
How come then Microsoft is still around then. No bringing them down. You can hate them for being so big and making monies on their software, but no way are "we" going to bring them down.
181 • RE 172 (by ladislav on 2008-10-30 00:33:15 GMT from Taiwan)
There are opinions that are much less kind to KDE4 than anything in this thread. Take this Mandriva (KDE 4.1.2) review as an example:
"The KDE4 has the ability to put all kinds of widgets on the desktop, but unfortunately none of the included ones bring anything useful for the end-user. Analog clock? Dilbert comic strips? Is this really what the next generation has to offer?"
Of course, there are many great features in KDE4, but as they say, the first impressions last. It will be hard to get these users try KDE4 in the future if the first contact with it leaves such bitter aftertaste.
Sorry, I didn't want to sound biased or anti-KDE4, but after using it for a few months, I've grown sceptical about the amount of time it will still take before KDE4 allowes me to achieve the same level of productivity as KDE3. I am sure I will start feeling adventurous again at some point in the future, but right now I am very happy to be with KDE 3.5.9 on Lenny. It's a real revelation to find out that there still are trouble-free and stable distributions out there...
182 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-10-30 02:38:56 GMT from Canada)
joke of the day -
whats the difference between a lemon and a mandriva community manager?
ones bitter and twisted and the others a citrus fruit.
183 • @182 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-30 03:29:31 GMT from Canada)
Sorry, you're quite right, I'm forgetting the cardinal rule of the Linux world: Mark Shuttleworth speaks with the voice of God and craps kittens, and no-one shall ever question him.
184 • @182 (by bugoy on 2008-10-30 04:04:08 GMT from Philippines)
Errr, which one's the bitter and twisted, and which one is the citrus fruit?
185 • good post Adam (by Regis Philbin on 2008-10-30 06:04:06 GMT from United States)
I don't agree with everything in there, but that was thought-provoking.
186 • @ various posters (by Mark on 2008-10-30 06:33:47 GMT from Australia)
Short replies to various posters:
>Yes, you do have to put folder view, a widget, on your desktop if you want to use it like a traditional desktop. You know, quite a lot of people like to save files on the desktop (default setting for Firefox) and work with them there without launching a file manager. Unfortunately, folder view is not an optimal replacement for a traditional desktop. Read #120 for details.
The traditional KDE desktop, then, allows for precisely one "widge"t on the desktop. It is a pseudo file manager ... that one "widget" EQUALS the KDE3 desktop.
KDE4 desktop allows for that one widget and many others. You can use the one, the many, or even none at all, as you please.
Yet people complain about KDE4 LOSS of functionality, compared with KDE3? Get real.
>As for switching Kickoff to classic mode as suggested in #121 or #156, there is regression there: KDE4's Old Skool(TM) menu does not list recently used applications.
OK ... so you don't like Kickoff menu in either mode? ... then use Lancelot menu. It is a lot like Mint Menu.
Choices, choices, functionality abounds.
> I happen to have a copy of the November 2008 issue of Linux Format magazine; in it Veitch reviews KDE 4.1, giving it a rating of 7 out of 10.
Veitch gets it right, though, since he complains (rightly or wrongly) about things in (or not in) KDE4. Ladislav bitches about KDE4 over something that is actually a nvidia driver bug.
>Regarding KDE4 and Ladislav needing to apologies. That's ludicrous.
* His computer
* His experience with KDE4 on said computer
* His webpage
Almost correct. The second line should read "His experience with a bad nvidia bug causing slowness in KDE4 on said computer".
>If you want to defend KDE4 as a community, then do so in a mature manner. A lot of the comments I've read have turned me off of KDE4.
If so you are way too easily swayed. None of the comments along the lines that "much of the criticism being directed at KDE4 is in fact misplaced" have been immature. The only immature thing in this discussion is replies like yours, when this error in attribution of blame is pointed out ... people go all surly and pretend to be hurt.
So ... if an error has been made, and strong criticism has been directed at the wrong set of developers (ie at the KDE developers rather than the nvidia proprietary developers) ... exactly what harm would a quick "sorry about that" retraction actually cause anyone? How would it actually be immature to admit such a mis-attribution of blame? How immature is it, when an error of attribution has been pointed out to you ... to then try to blame the messenger rather than fix the mis-attribution?
>I have an nVidia care, GeForce 6200, It works jsut fine with KDE4.
Yes. The nvidia XRender bug is limited to the 8000 and 9000 series.
187 • RE: 186 (by ladislav on 2008-10-30 07:09:26 GMT from Taiwan)
His experience with a bad nvidia bug causing slowness in KDE4 on said computer.
The nvidia XRender bug is limited to the 8000 and 9000 series.
Ah, I am glad you mentioned that. It so happens that my NVIDIA card is a GeForce 7600 GT, which, as you say, is not affected by the bug. So there goes your theory - down the drain.
Now, I fully expect that you'll retract all your accusations and apologise. Surely, you are a mature person and since the error in attribution of blame has been pointed out.... Come on, mate, don't let me wait all afternoon ;-)
188 • I was just going on what you posted. (by Mark on 2008-10-30 09:42:23 GMT from Australia)
>Ah, I am glad you mentioned that. It so happens that my NVIDIA card is a GeForce 7600 GT, which, as you say, is not affected by the bug. So there goes your theory - down the drain.
>Now, I fully expect that you'll retract all your accusations and apologise. Surely, you are a mature person and since the error in attribution of blame has been pointed out.... Come on, mate, don't let me wait all afternoon ;-)
Here was your review:
>>Version 4.0 of the popular desktop was released in January 2008 and, although it was numbered as "stable", it felt more like a very early alpha release - buggy, unstable and seriously lacking in features. A quick succession of point releases followed before the arrival of KDE 4.1 in July 2008. While progress was obvious, it still barely qualified as a beta release.
>>If we continue the correlation between version numbers and stability, KDE 4.2 (currently scheduled for release in January 2009) might roughly correlate to a release candidate, KDE 4.3 could be seen as the first stable release, and KDE 4.4 would be something roughly equivalent to KDE 3.5 in terms of stability and usability. With KDE's releases coming in roughly 6-month intervals, it could be January 2010 before we have a KDE 4 that is as good as or better than KDE 3.5!
>>Despite clearly not being ready for the prime time, it's hard to blame KDE for deciding to release an alpha code with a stable version number. Firstly, there is always the pressure of users and the media that want the latest and greatest and the continuous delays would almost certainly cause friction in many quarters. Secondly, by releasing alpha code under a stable version number, the distributions are more likely to include it in their releases than if it was called, say, 3.9.90 or 4.0.0-alpha1. This way more users would try the latest release, the argument goes, which should contribute to faster bug reporting and fixing. What the KDE 4 development team has done was a dangerous precedent, perhaps an experiment, so let's hope that this kind of release mechanism will be an exception rather than a rule in the open source software world.
You caught me out. You did not actually ***SAY*** that KDE 4 was buggy beyond KDE 4.0.1. You just strongly hinted in that direction, inviting the reader to reach that conclusion.
Quite clever really if your aim was to put people off from trying KDE 4.
You ***CLAIM*** that KDE 4 lacks functionality and usability of KDE 3, but you studiously avoid mention of any area where you claim it misses out.
You speculate that KDE 4 won't catch KDE 3 until 2010, without ever explaining how you think that it has already not passed it.
Remember ... KDE 4 can run KDE 3 applications, and not the other way around.
You entirely omit to mention the fact that KDE 4.1.2 is actually very stable, and far quicker than any other desktop software (on systems that have a working driver for XRender).
So here is my apology ... I didn't realise that you were actively trying to lie about your experience with KDE 4. If I had read it carefully enough, I might have picked up that you didn't actually claim it was still buggy, and hence I might have realised that you did not in fact have an affected nvidia card. Mea culpa, I just assumed you were being honest with everybody ...
189 • @187 (by arno911 on 2008-10-30 09:47:28 GMT from Germany)
190 • RE: 188 (by ladislav on 2008-10-30 10:03:09 GMT from Taiwan)
So here is my apology ... I didn't realise that you were actively trying to lie about your experience with KDE 4.
Now, that's what I call MATURE! Love the apology, mate, honestly, you've made my day!
If you'd like to put together a 6 - 8 paragraph story for next week's DWW about how anybody who has issues with KDE4 is a liar, your are most welcome. You know my email address, right?
191 • No subject (by Mark on 2008-10-30 10:40:13 GMT from Australia)
Firstly ... you are correct, I did get way out of line there.
So apologies for getting out of line ... but I do not apologise for dissing your totally undeserved putdown of KDE4.
As for writing about this issue for distrowatch ... clearly my writing skills are not up to the task, I don't have the real inside story and lack many pertinent facts, and I'm not in any way close to the actual goings on.
I'd suggest to your readers that if they want the real story with KDE 4 and its performance and stability, they get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. If your readers really want to know what exactly is going on, why KDE 4 is way out in front of the desktop pack, perhaps too far out in front and vulnerable to shortcomings in layers of software below it, including Qt 4.4, Xorg and hardware drivers ... I'd suggest the best read on the subject available on the whole topic can be had here:
Essentially, if your system is "lucky" enough to have a reasonable GPU, and a good 2D driver installed, then (despite some shortcomings of Xorg code and Qt4.4), KDE can really fly on even modest hardware ... such as Aaron Seigo 's laptop.
It does, however, depend on those lower levels of code to achieve that.
192 • @ 186 (by Ariszló on 2008-10-30 10:49:15 GMT from Hungary)
"The traditional KDE desktop, then, allows for precisely one "widge"t on the desktop. It is a pseudo file manager ... that one "widget" EQUALS the KDE3 desktop."
Widgets are and should be optional extra thingies that you can freely add or remove. Default functionality like being able to manage files on your desktop should not be provided by a widget but just should be there. The KDE3 (or Gnome or Xfce...) desktop is not a widget. It is there and you cannot remove it. Folder View IS a widget.
KDE4 has turned things upside down. What should be default functionality is provided by an optional widget, the Folder View. What should be an optional widget manager like SuperKaramba in KDE3 is a core component in KDE4.
Folder View does NOT equal the KDE3 desktop. You can add icons displayed as icons to the KDE3 desktop but not *inside* Folder View. You can also add widgets to the KDE3 desktop but again not *inside* Folder View.
Maximized Folder View is claimed to equal the KDE3 desktop. Read comment #120 for details. I keep repeating this because you do not seem to have read it.
193 • KDE4 performance (by Ariszló on 2008-10-30 11:01:12 GMT from Hungary)
@ 191: "If your system is "lucky" enough to have a reasonable GPU, and a good 2D driver installed, then (despite some shortcomings of Xorg code and Qt4.4), KDE can really fly on even modest hardware..."
No performance issue here: Intel Celeron 1.7 GHz CPU, Intel 82845 graphics card, 384 MB of RAM, 1 GB swap.
194 • KDE4 performance (cont.) (by Ariszló on 2008-10-30 11:05:24 GMT from Hungary)
... Slackware 12.1 with Robby Workman's KDE 4.1 packages: http://kde4.rlworkman.net/
195 • @post 178 by Adam about commercial distros.. (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-30 11:07:25 GMT from United States)
..also the "extra polish" postings/discussion: are we to translate that as, "more Windows-like?" Hope not.
It's obvious that there's a range of mindsets amongst Linux users, from the purist Gentoo users to the Xandros/Linspire users and everything in between.
But most of the discussion here lately seems to have as a sort of backdrop the notion that a distro's viability in the marketplace is synonymous with its success and with its legitimacy. Everything seems to be leaning in that direction.
I find that sad. I do want functionality right from the git-go in my choosen distro, and I do contribute to several of them, and I don't have a BLAG bumper sticker, but I came into Linux very excited about this world community putting together an operating system for free and of their own free time.
Is that notion being pushed aside for Windows-like "success" as the dream of Linux developers?
196 • RE: 191 KDE (by Landor on 2008-10-30 12:35:14 GMT from Canada)
Firstly, though I didn't delve too deeply...I didn't see any mention of exactly what his laptop had for hardware. I may have missed it, who knows. All I noticed was a reference to it not being the very fastest by today's standards, which doesn't say a lot.
I on the other hand have a few systems, 2 of which are bleeding edge in regard to hardware and I can honestly say that "in my personal evaluation of KDE 4.? it is far more resource hungry than the 3 series and is nowhere near as responsive. Video cards are not a factor in that evalution either since they differ in my systems.
Another note of his blog, and what I've seen from you and others. Everyone seems to be toting the "Eye Candy Flag"...I really like KDE, but I have to look at a project extremely critically that puts asthetics and "eye candy" as a priority compared to functionality. It leaves someone wondering why? There's a ton of issues to resolve still with KDE 4 as we know, but shouldn't the focus have been on those instead of desktop effects that work better than some of the "actual" core functionality in the DE? Not very professional in my personal opinion.
I've personally, and "for now"...Lost a fair bit of faith in the KDE pool for quite a number of reasons, many not mentioned as well. I don't see that changing even in the distant future with how they've been handling 4.?
Keep your stick on the ice...
197 • #192 @ Ariszló (by Mark on 2008-10-30 13:30:49 GMT from Australia)
Without responding to every little comment everywhere ... essentially folderview in KDE 4.1.2 is a functional but not exact or complete replacement for "icons on the desktop". KDE 4.2 will expand on the functionality somewhat ... but try to realise that the objective is not just to mimic the way that KDE 3 did things, but to improve upon it. With folderviews, you can "organise" your desktop into projects of subjects in a way that has just not been possible before with any desktop system. Use a bit of imagination and you might be able to see the advanced possibilities.
Meanwhile, if before you just used your KDE 3 desktop as a temporary holding area, say for files you downloaded in firefox ... then folderview as it stands is perfectly capable still of letting you do that.
It isn't the exact same behaviour as KDE 3, but you haven't really lost any functionality and you have gained a more powerful system overall.
For tips and tricks and hints about what is coming, and how to do things in KDE4 that you used to do differently in KDE 3, and where to get extra helper bits and pieces ... I'd suggest reading the following forum thread.
I hope this helps you.
198 • Mark and his multitute defense of KDE4 (by Verndog on 2008-10-30 14:44:27 GMT from United States)
Reading someone's blog or bias review of KDE4 just doesn't cut it.
"The proof is in the pudding". If installed KDE4 runs like molasses
and KDE3 runs like a gazelle , no defense can persuade users otherwise!
Landor gave you his view, and Ladislav gave us his. No apologizes necessary. They have a right to what they have experienced.
What's sad is that your trying to convince them otherwise. It appears your on some kind of mission regarding KDE4. That's why we have choices.
Your beloved KDE4 right now just isn't one of them.
Reading through your many posts, its a apparent your trying to defend any opposition to KDE4. Give it a rest. Experience wins out anytime over someone's blog.
199 • flamebait (by Anonymous on 2008-10-30 16:00:41 GMT from United States)
>>What's sad is that your trying to convince them otherwise. It appears your on some kind of mission regarding KDE4. That's why we have choices.
Your beloved KDE4 right now just isn't one of them.
???How does that make any sense?
sounds like your on a similar mission.
As a big fan of DWW, I think the article is flamebait. I didn't know you were such a kde hater ladislav.
>>When it comes to distributions, the picture is very different. Now they have to make a decision whether to stay with KDE 3 or move to KDE 4. Since no distribution is in a position to be able to double the number of developers on its KDE team, it is unreasonable to expect them to provide both versions 3 and 4 - at least not without putting an enormous strain on the existing KDE maintainers.
Thats funny, isn't arch maintaining both versions of kde?
truth is no one has to make a decision. That's what is amusing to me is that many of you seem to be in a state of panic and anger about the whole kde situation. Or at least you want those reading your posts (yes you too ladislav) to think so. The reality is that kde3 is still supported by a lot of distros, and will be in the near future. That's what choice is all about. If you like kde3 then stick with it. if not use another DE/WM. or if your curious about the new version of kde4 give it an honest spin and see how you like.
When/if kde3 stops being developed, then you can start thinking about what you will choose to do, but until then don't take the bait.
My pet peeve about kde4 is the lack of apps written in qt4. But nothing to lost sleep over as mark has pointed out several times, you can still run all your kde3 apps with no problems. But all that will change soon as app devs begin to transition to qt4.
having used debian and arch kde4 versions, I can say that I have not experienced sluggishness at all. The only buggy thing is the panel, and by that i mean when you move/add icons, they are not saved, but that is an easy fix with a quick
kquitapp plasma && plasma
so to kde devs, keep working hard. We appreciate the efforts.
>>Sorry, you're quite right, I'm forgetting the cardinal rule of the Linux world: Mark Shuttleworth speaks with the voice of God and craps kittens, and no-one shall ever question him.
I dont know what linux world your living in, but I personally do not care for ubuntu and feel like it gives debian a bad name, but thats just my opinion.
But you need to stop whining, you sound like a cranky old man. It doesn't suit you.
I can respect Shuttleworth for doing what he wanted to with his money,and I also respect you for all the efforts you make without his funding. but that in no way makes him nor you a mouthpiece for the community at large. so stop the bickering and please start working together for the communitys' sake.
200 • @195 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-30 16:03:59 GMT from Canada)
By 'extra polish' we (or at least I) mean stuff like the Mandriva drak* tools, or the fit and finish you found in early Ubuntu releases that no-one else really had - the attractive clean desktop, the well-designed update utilities and installer. Things like that are what you don't generally get in community distributions, in my experience. Also things like good, reliable documentation, which is notoriously hard to get out of volunteers.
I think community distros are great, and lots of people are happy running them, which is awesome. If Debian or Gentoo or another big, independent community distro serves your needs - wonderful. But there's always been a large group of people for which they don't.
There's also always going to be a large group of people who would work on Linux less if they weren't getting paid for it. Like, to give a simple example, me. I work twelve hour days, split between community work and technical stuff; if I weren't being paid to do that, I couldn't possibly do it, as I'd need a regular job, and I probably wouldn't want to spend all my spare time *after* my regular work being nice to people in forums or convincing years old applications to work with Tcl 8.6. I have other interests. :)
The volunteer / community aspect of open source and Linux development is great, and it's important, but it's never been the whole story. There have always been people who are paid to work on open source, and generally speaking - over the long run - doing that produces more output than relying exclusively on volunteers. If it didn't, no-one would do it. And as long as commercial distributions with paid staff are going to exist and be useful to some people...*someone* has to fund the pay checks.
201 • @107 (by john frey on 2008-10-30 17:57:58 GMT from Canada)
Thanks for pointing that out Mark. There's always someone willing to point out that someones experience is the fault of other than what they are complaining about.
In the end it doesn't matter if it's the fault of KDE, Xorg, HAL, nvidia drivers, Linux or the distro. When there are multiple bugs that are specific to an application, KDE 4 in this case, that were not happening with the previous version then it is the new version that is the problem from the users perspective.
Right now KDE 4 is not usable for me and it's not an nvidia driver problem because KDE 3 works just fine. For the people trying to debug this issue it might very well be an nvidia driver problem. Not for me.
My card is an 8600GT by the way which is the current generation of GPU. I thought it was older nvidia cards that were not working.
202 • Wow (by anticapitalista on 2008-10-30 17:58:18 GMT from Greece)
Wow, 4 reviews on Ubuntu already!
I wonder how in depth they will be (lol) and how many will report on how X distro works in 2 months time (at least)
203 • Get ready...there's a new Sheriff in town (by Sheriff John on 2008-10-30 20:29:46 GMT from United States)
Sheriff Buntu at your service :)
The buntu's are here. Now we can move off of KDE4 and show some buntu hate 'er love, which ever your flavor.
I personally like and use Ubuntu. If it weren't for Ubuntu I might still be using Windows. It showed me that the newer Linux's are quite capable. Then once I reorientated myself to Linux logic I was able to move forward...Debian, Mandriva, FreeBSD, etc.
I probably couldn't say that if I had an nVidia card as so many still have issues.
204 • @202 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-30 21:22:51 GMT from United States)
forget ubuntu, any word on mepis 8 or antix?
205 • #204 Mepis 8 and antiX (by a on 2008-10-30 21:28:36 GMT from Greece)
MEPIS 8 is in beta testing stage. There is a beta 4 available.
Work is continuing on antiX. The next release, antiX-M8, will hopefully be ready in mid-to late December.
206 • @198 (by greenLegs on 2008-10-30 21:36:04 GMT from France)
"Reading someone's blog or bias review of KDE4 just doesn't cut it."
But did you actually read it? There's something in there that would have caught my attention if I were you or Mark:
"It means that there is work that needs to be done at every level in the stack**. We've taken the FOSS desktop to a whole new level with KDE 4, and we're pushing it even further with each subsequent release. By setting that bar higher than it has been in the past, we've created new areas of work for ourselves.
But because that work is spread out across the stack, it means that ***there will be vast variance in user experience right now***"
** The stack = Xorg(+drivers), Qt & KDE.
(*** are mine)
207 • greenLegs (by Anonymous on 2008-10-30 21:49:06 GMT from France)
I hope my preceding post doesn't come out as patronizing.
I just wanted to underline that, for a KDE staff, yes, the current experience of the end-user of KDE will vary a lot, and the responsibility isn't only KDE's.
You focus on the former, Mark on the latter.
208 • Pointing to a summary of REAL, ACTUAL deficiencies of KDE4 (by Mark on 2008-10-30 22:47:10 GMT from Australia)
@john frey #201
>Right now KDE 4 is not usable for me and it's not an nvidia driver problem because KDE 3 works just fine. For the people trying to debug this issue it might very well be an nvidia driver problem. Not for me.
>My card is an 8600GT by the way which is the current generation of GPU. I thought it was older nvidia cards that were not working.
Sorry john, but this is an issue for your model of nvidia card and nvidia's binary drivers for Linux.
The older nvidia cards are not being supported any longer by nvidia, so the don't get a new driver capable of compiz & 3D performance etc ... but their 2D performance is fine.
The newer nvidia cards of the 8000 and 9000 series are supported by newer nvidia garphics driver. These newer driver have great 3D performance but absolutely abysmal 2D performance on Linux.
The issues with KDE4 and the drivers it relies on are summarised fairly well here:
Graphics performance is the number one issue, and your card is affected. You will have poor performance on your desktop for recent applications that try to make use of recent features of Xorg, specifically the XRender capability. This is supposed to speed up garphics operations for desktop applications, but on some nvidia cards, yours included, this function is many, many times slower. Not only will KDE4 be affected for you, but also programs like Firefox 3 and OpenOffice 3 on Linux.
From the summary @ techbase.kde.org linked above, there are work-arounds for most of the items listed, but there is no real fix for your card's driver issue until nvidia fix it (or you could always forgo the 3D features for now, and use an open source 2D-only driver). Since this is so, then perhaps the best advice for you is as techbase.kde.org says it:
"If these issues are important to you, you should stay with KDE 3.5 (KDE 3.5.10 was released in August 2008) until KDE 4.2 is released (scheduled for release in January 2009) when most of these issues are scheduled to be resolved. "
As for applications not yet ported to KDE4, techbase.kde.org gives you a list, and as has been pointed out a few times on this thread already, techbase.kde.org notes the following:
"Some KDE 3 applications have not yet been ported to KDE 4. Most distributions still package KDE 3 versions of these applications with their KDE 4 desktop."
Oh yes ... further work is need at every level of the stack, and some systems right now have abysmal 2D graphics performance that will make KDE4 an untenable experience. But the point is that for most systems (that are not so broken), KDE4 is the fastest and most advanced desktop system available right now for any OS at all.
209 • greenLegs (by Anonymous on 2008-10-30 23:53:33 GMT from France)
First, I've got nothing against KDE4, kuddos to them.
Second, I know nothing about the harware and software issues involved. So what follows might not make any sense.
Ok, so KDE4 is, when it works as it should, faster than any other, and the most advanced if one likes its paradigm. Fine with me. To achieve this, it is "ahead of its time" technically. A current downside is that, as Aaaron says, besides its own shortcomings, KDE4 is very affected by some shortcomings of the lower layers ie Xorg, drivers, Qt4.
Firefox and OpenOffice aren't "ahead of their time", so it's not surprising that they have less difficulties with the lower layers (for instance that nvidia driver bug). And this fits what we hear. If as many people had trouble FF && OO as they do KDE4, we'd hear about it be all over the place, don't you think? So, the number of systems affected adversaly by those lower layers is much bigger for KDE4 than for FF && OO. (Would you agree with that?)
Aaron doesn't speak of FF && OO, so he doesn't spell it out this way, but given the tone of his blog entry, I don't think that he'd have any trouble with this statement. In his blog he doesn't, contrarily to you here, keep on saying that most systems are fit for KDE4, despite "evidence" of the contrary and thus that anyone suggesting otherwise is a liar, has an anti-KDE4 agenda or bias or whatever. He is more balanced. People you oppose with here would say, he is more in touch with reality.
At least, this is what comes across to the ignorant watcher that I am.
Anyway, thanks for pointing out the complex problems that KDE4 development is facing, many of which are out of their hands.
210 • Ubuntu 8.10 (by Nobody important on 2008-10-30 23:59:54 GMT from United States)
Not quite stable on my machine, but I'm blaming my aging hardware, not Ubuntu itself. Bizarre behavior, like opening and closing the CD drive when I click the eject button, is a little discouraging, however.
nVidia's lack of Linux support is getting irritating, though. The lack of drivers for older nVida cards is becoming a dealbreaker for some of these distros (and KDE4's performance is being damaged by the lack of updates). Why don't they just open-source their drivers like the rumors were saying last summer? I know the troubles involved for nVidia, but at least then this stuff wouldn't be an issue.
211 • Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex (by Verndog on 2008-10-31 00:01:47 GMT from United States)
I just downloaded and I'm typing this on the new Ubuntu Intrepid Ibex, LiveCD. The first program I opened crashed! It was Ekiga (ver 2.0.12). The seg-fault has been fix in version 3, I'm told.
Mandriva, on the other hand, worked flawless. I think it's a higher version than Ubuntu's.
It appears a stable release. Onlt time will tell. My rig is of the vanilla type. No high powered graphics chip or dual-core cpu.
212 • Gads.. more junk from Ubuntu (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-31 00:05:58 GMT from United States)
What a mess. Updating after install is broken. Downloading is broken. Getting repositories is broken. Konqeror is broken. Java is broken.
This guy is a billionaire? That boy needs to get some better educated developers for his money.
It did install to my hard drive though. And it did configure and recognize my wireless. That is very nice.
But it's useless to me as a working operating system, of course. Details in the Ubuntu forums, as usual. ;O)
213 • Ref211 (by Verndog on 2008-10-31 00:08:41 GMT from United States)
When I referenced Mandriva to Ubuntu, I was refering to the Ekiga program only.
To be fair to Ubuntu. Everytime after the initial start, Ekiga worked well. Mandriva and now Ubuntu Ibex, works on my Logitech video-cam.
214 • @212 (by Nobody important on 2008-10-31 00:54:16 GMT from United States)
I wouldn't say "broken." More like "pretty good and stable." Then again, it sounds like you're using Kubuntu; you're asking for angst there. And a lot of repository and downloading issues have to do with the extreme load of the servers; just wait for a while. No reason to be so angry about it.
Past a few very minor details, I'm very pleased with this new release. I did a clean install, though, so that might have something to do with it.
215 • #209 - Ahead of its time? maybe, but it shouldn't be so. (by Mark on 2008-10-31 01:19:41 GMT from Australia)
>Ok, so KDE4 is, when it works as it should, faster than any other, and the most advanced if one likes its paradigm. Fine with me. To achieve this, it is "ahead of its time" technically. A current downside is that, as Aaaron says, besides its own shortcomings, KDE4 is very affected by some shortcomings of the lower layers ie Xorg, drivers, Qt4.
This is somewhat fair enough. KDE4 is the first Linux desktop to try to use hardware GPU to accelerate the desktop graphics. This should be old hat by now, since GPUs have been around on mosts systems for 10+ years now ... and up until now, most GPUs have been unused except when running a game.
Aero on Windows Vista tries the same trick, but it goes way further than KDE4 does and hence it requires a new machine with fairly high-end graphics card. KDE4 doesn't require a cutting edge graphics card at all, but it does need one that works.
If you are interested ... try moving or re-sizing a window on KDE3 and compare it to KDE4. KDE3 just draws the Window outline in its new size/position, until you release the mouse, whereupon it re-draws the entire window in its new size and position.
KDE4 is fast enough in comparison to be able to continuously re-draw the whole window all the time as it is being moved or re-sized.
That is an order of magnitude higher performance for KDE4 than KDE3.
>Firefox and OpenOffice aren't "ahead of their time", so it's not surprising that they have less difficulties with the lower layers (for instance that nvidia driver bug). And this fits what we hear. If as many people had trouble FF && OO as they do KDE4, we'd hear about it be all over the place, don't you think? So, the number of systems affected adversaly by those lower layers is much bigger for KDE4 than for FF && OO. (Would you agree with that?)
Sorry ... no I wouldn't.
Firefox 3 and OpenOffice 3 are affected by exactly the same bug. It applies even on GNOME systems. It doesn't receive anywhere near as much attention because it isn't used for anywhere as much function on either of those programs. In firefox 3, for example, the poor performance due to this bug can typically only be seen when opening or closing a new tab, or when scrolling.
Since it is the same bug ... it occurs on exactly the same systems that will have trouble with KDE4.
It is just that it is far more obvious and visible when using KDE4, because KDE4 makes heavy use of the graphics feature that this bug affects so badly.
There has been quite a lot of discussion online about firefox poor performance on Linux (compared with Windows) as well. Since it is due to the nvidia bug, it affects only some systems, and this causes similar debates on-line to this discussion.
"Firefox 3 is horribly slow on Linux, compared with Windows on the same machine ... so Mozilla must be neglecting the Linux version".
"What are you talking about? Firefox 3 flies on my Linux box".
... and so on. It has nothing to do with Firefox or Mozilla ... it is a nvidia bug.
You get the same on-line debate with OpenOffice.
"OpenOffice is dog slow, especially on Linux".
"No it isn't, it is just about the same speed as MS Office".
... and so on. Same thing.
216 • Linux to outship Windows next year? (by yooha on 2008-10-31 01:56:28 GMT from Canada)
217 • The world according to Mark (by john frey on 2008-10-31 02:04:38 GMT from Canada)
There is never a KDE 4 problem, it's an nvidia driver problem. If there are any other problems they are with other applications not with KDE 4 which is the single most bug free release of any software you've seen in your short and unimaginative lifetime.
Starvation and HIV rampant in Africa? That stinkin' nvidia driver.
Tomorrows forecast, sunny and mild, thanks to KDE 4.
If it is your experience and/or opinion that there are problems with KDE 4 Mark will explain to you how wrong you are. If you have examples Mark will explain how that is the fault of your hardware and other applications, hardly the responsibility of KDE 4. Qt4, Xorg and many drivers are broken for KDE 4 (bad nvidia, bad). If they would rush and fix their stuff we would all see the flawless wonder of KDE 4.
I don't think I've ever seen such single minded defense of a piece of software in my life. 8-/
218 • @127 Tomorrows forecast, sunny and mild (by Mark on 2008-10-31 03:37:42 GMT from Australia)
>Starvation and HIV rampant in Africa? That stinkin' nvidia driver.
:) That's not actually a bad one at all.
... Seriously, if we have thousands of disgruntled nvidia card owners grumbling loudly in public at the wrong party and saying "that's it for me and KDE4, I'm outta here" ... and at the same time not saying a single word of complaint to nvidia to get the card's driver bug fixed ... how will nvidia ever get motivation to fix it?
How would Linux ever get a GPU-accelerated desktop if bugs like this aren't fixed?
What exactly is the POINT in complaining about KDE 4 over what really is poor code outside of the scope of their project?
219 • The discusions here.. (by Sertse on 2008-10-31 03:41:18 GMT from Australia)
End users don't care who's fault it is "technically". They just want the whole experience to work.
As the maker of an end product, you are representing everything the user finally sees. Consequently this is the standard you are to be held to and judged against
Therefore it becomes your *your* responsibility to "deal with it" any issues present with upstream, NOT the users.
It isn't acceptable, when you complain about a bad meal at a restaurant, for the restaurant to defend itself that their meals aren't bad, but only the ingredients given by the supplier are. The restaurant has responsibility to deliver a good meal to the customer. It isn't the customers issue to hear about the suppliers etc.
220 • Redraw a window while I move it !!!?? (by RollMeAway on 2008-10-31 04:00:30 GMT from United States)
Why would anyone want to redraw a window while it is being moved.
I know what it looks like before I decide to move it.
I know where I want to move it., and I expect it to look the same in its new location.
Why redraw the window a few thousand times as I move it? Make absolutely NO SENSE.
While talking about wasting resources. Wobbly-windows !? Kind of cute for a few minutes
then totally distracting, and a waste of time, and resources.
Those who buy an expensive video card so they can have wobbly-windows would
probably like to flush a closed window down the drain also.
Just think, you click on close window, and a graphics engine kicks in to mix up and
swirls around the window, for several seconds, ultimately disappearing down a
cartoon drain. Complete with stereo sound of a toilet flushing and the drain gurgling.
Come on nvidia fix those drivers,
I CAN'T WAIT!
221 • @220 I appreciate sarcasm as much as the next person (by Mark on 2008-10-31 04:45:31 GMT from Australia)
> Why would anyone want to redraw a window while it is being moved. Really, WHY?
You are of course correct, the graphics effects don't really matter (apart from bragging contests with Windows fans who note that Windows is fast enough to be able to do this).
What really matters in KDE4 is that:
(1) the GPU, which was previously just sitting there eating power, is now being used to do what it was made for, which is render graphics, and
(2) the CPU is now not used for desktop graphics to nearly the same extent, meaning that rendering the desktop no longer steals CPU resource away from tasks that you really want the CPU to be doing. (When you are compiling a large project of hundreds of files, for example, you want the CPU to spend its time actually compiling and not on drawing konsole text and graphics on the screen.)
222 • @129 Open source code has addressed the problem. (by Mark on 2008-10-31 04:57:34 GMT from Australia)
>End users don't care who's fault it is "technically". They just want the whole experience to work.
>As the maker of an end product, you are representing everything the user finally sees. Consequently this is the standard you are to be held to and judged against
>Therefore it becomes your *your* responsibility to "deal with it" any issues present with upstream, NOT the users.
Read post 145 on this thread.
Open source code has addressed the problem. If you want a working 2D driver for your affected nvidia card then choose between either of these two:
The nouveau driver, in particular, claims the following:
2D-support is in fairly good shape with EXA acceleration, Xv and Randr12 (think of dual-head, rotations, etc.). Randr12 should work for all cards up to, but not including, Geforce 8000 series. Randr12 is now the default.
223 • Sarcastic mood tonight? (by RollMeAway on 2008-10-31 05:24:27 GMT from United States)
Guess I am.
There is ubuntu, kubuntu, x, myth, ge etc ad nauseum.
Why isn't there a gmandriva, kmandriva, xmandriva, etc. ?
While that would really clutter the list of distros,
we would know what each other is talking about.
NOW, if I say Fedora 9 is trash,and I'm running KDE4,
Someone else running gnome on Fedora 9, thinks I'm crazy. Their Fedora 9 is great.
THEN, I would say KFedora 9 is bad, those running GFedora 9 would just ignore me.
Lets keep a level playing field.
Shall we ban all the k, x ge etc 'buntus, or add k, x ge etc to all the other distros?
224 • @211, @223 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-31 06:28:32 GMT from Canada)
2009 has Ekiga 2.0.12 in the default package set, but 3.0 is available in /main/backports if you'd rather use that version. Unfortunately, backporting 3.0.1 isn't trivial, because it requires libpt and libopal to be updated too. :
@223: We have KDE and GNOME live discs, and will likely have Xfce and KDE 3 ones soon. We just don't find it necessary to pretend they're all different distributions. ;) (ducks)
225 • wonderful dw frontpage (by buchmann on 2008-10-31 07:23:42 GMT from Germany)
5 *buntus - didnt they forget some? :)
226 • Mail to DistroWatch probably not getting through (by Muhammad Fahd Waseem on 2008-10-31 08:46:11 GMT from Germany)
I was wondering if my e-mail at the stated address distro at distrowatch . com is getting through... I did send a few mails, but never heard a reply. I am the same person who did the Urdu translation, by the way....
227 • @ post 214 (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-31 11:02:26 GMT from United States)
Thank you for responding to my (almost angry) remarks about my usual Ubuntu experience (honestly don't understand its popularity.. "MacDonald's Syndrome?").
Anyway, responses to complaints are interesting, here or anywhere. Sometimes they remind me of the old cartoon of the guy standing at the entrance to a doctor's office yelling at the sick people walking in, "Hey, why are you going in there? I'm fine."
228 • @ 212 and his mess (by DeniZen on 2008-10-31 11:24:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
" 212 • Jerry said:
What a mess. Updating after install is broken. Downloading is broken. Getting repositories is broken. Konqeror is broken. Java is broken" :end quote
Tried out the new shiny (umm) Ubuntu - out of curiosity - as Ido.
The terror and mayhem you describe didnt happen for me. Is it happening for everyone? many? some?
It was in fact - without any hitch for me at all - post initial update all is calm.
Am I lucky? - are you ham fisted? I dont know.
229 • Re: Lost Mail to DistroWatch (by Muhammad Fahd Waseem on 2008-10-31 12:40:21 GMT from Germany)
Thanks for getting back to me.
I received your mail, and replied. I have a successfully sent message. I wonder if you got it; if you haven't, I am rather academically interested as to why it hasn't got you... This has never happened before...
230 • Re: Lost Mail (by Muhammad Fahd Waseem on 2008-10-31 13:14:15 GMT from Germany)
I do hope you have put me in the exceptions list...
231 • @post 228 by denizen (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-31 13:53:19 GMT from United States)
Finally somebody makes sense: we need a Linux for the ham fisted.
Hamlinux? Fistedlinux? <--- may be interpreted wrong by some
Howz about Complete Linux, tested on a vast array of machines and with a vast array of software by a vast array of Linux users with a vast range of Linux savvy.
There ya go.
232 • Ibex launched.. (by Doispe at 2008-10-31 14:49:42 GMT from Romania)
Comment deleted (troll).
233 • re 232 (by corneliu on 2008-10-31 15:03:52 GMT from Canada)
Come on man, I don't use Ubuntu, I actually use Mandriva, but hold your horses man. It's just sad when a Linux user bashes any distro like that. Use Alsa if Pulse does not work on your hardware. Use a distro that suits you but please stop this nonsense. Ubuntu is far from a shity distro.
234 • Ubuntu 8.10 (by mika480 on 2008-10-31 15:09:54 GMT from Italy)
Very very very disappointing....
it was a spare hdd....
now it's again a clean spare hdd!
Ubuntu ....why so many releases and so many.....nothing!
Che release deludente....penso sia una delle ultime che provo!
235 • ref 233 Ubuntu, Mandriva, Inodes (by Verndog on 2008-10-31 15:49:20 GMT from United States)
Yes, I'm also using Mandriva now most of the time. I do have Ubuntu LTS installed. I tried to install Ibex last night and had some problems. All related to the minimal partitioning tool. I wish they would allow me the ability to direct the installation to the partition of my choosing.
The partitioning tool on Ibex will not allow for anything except either free space or unallocated space. The reason I want that is do to the fact almost ALL distros require ext3 to have inodes of 256 bytes. Acronis and ghost don't work well with those. I have to copy the partiton to a 128 byte inode afterwards. I've heard of all the reasoning behind it. ext4 is coming and no more 128 byte inode. Also stated is there is a speed increase. I just don't see it.
Regarding the commerical backups, TrueImage, Ghost. There is nothing in the Unix world that backs up faster or restore faster than those two! That's another area of lack in the Linux/Unix rograms. I've used all the week legacy backup tools, dd, cpio, tar, dar, g4l,you name it. All slow as snails. Once you use TrueImage all the others are sad imitations.
236 • Kubuntu Xbuntu (by Anonymous on 2008-10-31 15:54:01 GMT from United States)
I can't even get off the first screen. I press enter and it hangs.
New Dell, tons of memory. But, it has USB keyboard and all SATA drives. That shouldn't be the problem...should it.
237 • Ubuntu (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-31 16:17:38 GMT from United States)
Comment deleted (troll).
238 • re 234 & 236 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-31 16:35:18 GMT from Canada)
Could this http://news.softpedia.com/news/Linux-Kernel-Regression-in-Ubuntu-8-10-Upgrade-Now-96839.shtml be the culprit?
239 • Intrepid is the best one I've tried (by Anonymous on 2008-10-31 16:37:53 GMT from United States)
I am using Ubuntu Studio for video and audio production. So far so good. This forum is filled with Ubuntu haters. But if you dare to criticize Mandriva 2009 you'll get your nuts cut off. Just goes to show you, you can't please everyone.
Well I had 2 major issues with Mandriva 2009 Free. At first I thought my laptop wasn't working correctly, then I found out that these bugs below are open bugs on Mandriva's very own QA website.
Bug 44855 - No sound on Dell Laptops with soundchip: 82801H (ICH8 Family) HD Audio Controller
Bug 44342 - 2.6.27 kernels pause often during boot process, resumes on keypress
In the trash you go Mandriva!!! You suck! Ubuntu"s hardware detection and configuration seem far much more superior to Mandrva's. Everything works under Intrepid for me. Again, just goes to show you, you can't please everyone.
240 • re 239 (by corneliu on 2008-10-31 16:48:48 GMT from Canada)
Now why did you have to say that about Mandriva. Why would you want to "remove all doubt"?
241 • re: 240 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-31 17:36:01 GMT from United States)
It wasn't a bash. It's a fact. Go to https://qa.mandriva.com/index.cgi This was my experience with Mandriva 2k9 albeit not a pleasant one.
So those two bugs killed it for me.
242 • @235 (by john frey on 2008-10-31 17:41:24 GMT from Canada)
You don't mention sync and rsync. Then there's a host of backup tools here http://www.debianhelp.co.uk/backuptools.htm and here http://www.debianhelp.co.uk/backuptools1.htm. I think you might want to reconsider there may be some you have not yet tried.
Now why is it so important that your backups be fast? Don't you just schedule a cron job for the middle of the night like everyone else? What do you care if it takes an hour at 3 AM? Fast restore I can understand. I'm sure glad you've found one that works for you. I'm still using one of the "sad imitations". It seems to work for me.
243 • re 241 (by glyj on 2008-10-31 18:22:14 GMT from France)
did you read the end of the thread ?
There is a kernel update available for testing for now....the official update is in the pipes ;-)
Sounds that it'll be ok for everyone....
244 • @227 (by Nobody important on 2008-10-31 18:48:43 GMT from United States)
"Anyway, responses to complaints are interesting, here or anywhere. Sometimes they remind me of the old cartoon of the guy standing at the entrance to a doctor's office yelling at the sick people walking in, "Hey, why are you going in there? I'm fine.""
More like you're the guy walking into the doctor's office saying you're sick but not bothering to find out or say why. There's no use calling Ubuntu names but not saying anything constructive.
245 • Absolute linux? (by Amy on 2008-10-31 19:36:37 GMT from United States)
Why isn't Absolute linux having its releases announced.
They are up toe 12.1.12 and it came out today.
246 • re 245 (by Anonymous on 2008-10-31 19:43:23 GMT from Canada)
Because Ubuntu just released five distros yesterday. There is simply no more room in the front page :)
247 • @239 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-10-31 22:09:00 GMT from Canada)
Both those bugs are upstream kernel bugs, and as glyj pointed out, there is already a testing update kernel which resolves the sound bug and will be released as an official update soon. The boot pausing bug has two working workarounds in the bug report, and is with the upstream kernel developers for evaluation.
In conclusion, your attitude is somewhat counter-productive. I wish you luck in finding the perfect, bug-free distribution. :)
248 • Adam's Blog and Shuttleworth (by Landor on 2008-10-31 22:58:30 GMT from Canada)
I thought this is the perfect time to discuss the topic since I'm testin' out King UBU's latest release...
Again I find myself shaking my head at comments/statements made by Adam, especially when it has to do with another company/distro/person in the Linux Community.
The blog "to me" read as someone who felt that pouring millions into a company and doing your own thing is just shameful. But that's what you can do when you have that amount of money to follow your dreams, and or choices/goals. You can make things happen and dictate how they are to.
What Adam fails to address that Mandriva isn't a starving company by any means in comparison to Canonical/Shuttleworth's wealth or financial pool.
Mandriva has made acquisitions that for just two of them total over 4 million. Also, "if" you believe the Wiki, they turned quite the profit (millions of U.S. dollars) in the last quarter of 2003..."three months". I'd also guesstimate that Mandriva has spent far more millions in production/research of their products.
When looking for information, though I may have missed something, I couldn't find anything stating that Shuttleworth invested more than the first 10 million into the project. Which as you can guess, isn't a whole lot more than Mandriva has had available to it.
How Shuttleworth chose to use his money to produce a business model differently than Mandriva did isn't a bad thing. He took an extremely innovative and risky approach to his idea, while Mandriva spent it's profits on acquiring other Linux/Support companies which were a far "safer" investment.
So I guess my biggest concern over this is knocking another disto, then the fact that "financial" played a significant role in the base of the "personal belief", yet Mandriva surely has had Millions at it's disposal as well.
Quite sad, and contradicting.
Keep your stick on the ice...
249 • "nobody" important makes another "contructive" post (#244) (by Jerry B. on 2008-10-31 23:46:34 GMT from United States)
I must have hit a sensitive area for you, Mr. Nobody.
The list of Ubuntu problems is ongoing and massive, moreso even than Mandriva's latest release.
Instead of critisising those noting that fact, why not give a shot at coming up with something that addresses items on those lists. We've been attempting to with post after post in past distrowatch comments areas having to do with networking, graphics cards and KDE problems to name just three.
250 • Ubuntu 8.10 installed - Finally! (by Verndog on 2008-11-01 00:33:30 GMT from United States)
I finally was able to install Ubuntu 8.10. I couldn't understand what has happening. The install program couldn't find any free space so I used 'cfdisk' to remove an already empty ext3 partitions. All hell broke lose after that.
'cfdisk' told me I needed to reboot. In doing so I couldn't again use 'cfdisk' it now complain about what I thought was the partition I just deleted. It turned out - I think- that deleted partition was masking another problem. 'cfdisk' was now complaining about an extended partition.
My thinking then was, maybe something wrong with my two ntfs partitions. So reboot we go. Yes, both Windows and another ntfs partition had errors. After several reboots, 'cfdisk' still complain about the extended partition. So I removed all files from it and removed the offending partition. That was it. The wired thing is, usually when any ntfs partition has problems, Linux refused to mount them. Has something to do with the "sticky bit". Not the case here.
At any rate I was finally able to install Ibex. Alls well now. By the way, I also used Mandriva's 'cdfisk' and 'fdisk', they both reported the same issue as Ubuntu.
Regards to that kernel issue. I already have an update that installed a new kernel. I'm thinking that's the one.
251 • RE 249 (by Nobody important on 2008-11-01 00:59:32 GMT from United States)
Because somehow, the following post is constructive:
"What a mess. Updating after install is broken. Downloading is broken. Getting repositories is broken. Konqeror is broken. Java is broken.
This guy is a billionaire? That boy needs to get some better educated developers for his money."
I think calling you on your flame-bait and trolling is constructive, don't you agree? ;) Sorry if I hurt your feelings; to be honest, I could care less what you think about Ubuntu. I just wish you'd say something worth reading, instead of wasting everyone's time.
"The list of Ubuntu problems is ongoing and massive, moreso even than Mandriva's latest release."
You ran into every single one? I very much doubt it. This, again, does not justify your reasoning. You haven't backed up a single claim, and I have yet to hear you say anything of note.
Don't point the finger at me, please, I beg you. That's simply not very nice.
252 • Just to say as well (by Nobody important on 2008-11-01 01:03:32 GMT from United States)
I enjoyed both Ubuntu 8.10 and Mandriva 2009 very much. Both releases have been outstanding. I'm sticking with Ubuntu for now, but I'll probably swap over to PCLinuxOS 2009 when it comes out.
Oh, and Mr. B., you failed to notice that I have added my two cents to the discussion on post 210. Past that, I just enjoy sitting around on boards such as these and making fun of people who don't actually back up their claims.
Have a wonderful Halloween, everyone!
253 • @248 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-11-01 02:00:18 GMT from Canada)
"The blog "to me" read as someone who felt that pouring millions into a company and doing your own thing is just shameful. But that's what you can do when you have that amount of money to follow your dreams, and or choices/goals. You can make things happen and dictate how they are to."
Again with this misconception. The question is not whether Mr. Shuttleworth "can" do this. The question is whether it's the best way to grow the Linux ecosystem, and I don't think it is.
If the answer to everything was "people with money should do whatever they like with it and no-one else is allowed to discuss whether what they do is the best thing for the wider world", why are we allowed to criticize Microsoft?
I never once said that Mr. Shuttleworth should be prevented from doing what he did. I said that I believe that what he did is not productive for the Linux community as a whole, over the long run.
"What Adam fails to address that Mandriva isn't a starving company by any means in comparison to Canonical/Shuttleworth's wealth or financial pool."
I disagree with this interpretation.
"Mandriva has made acquisitions that for just two of them total over 4 million."
Practically speaking, the deal with Conectiva works more like a merger. Only the Linbox and Lycoris deals were really acquisitions, and they were pretty small scale.
"Also, "if" you believe the Wiki, they turned quite the profit (millions of U.S. dollars) in the last quarter of 2003..."three months". I'd also guesstimate that Mandriva has spent far more millions in production/research of their products."
Nope, and nope. You're misreading Wikipedia (which does, in fact, have its figures straight). It says €270,000: that's two hundred and seventy thousand euros, not millions of dollars. We have never made a profit in the millions.
Mandriva currently has operating costs of around 1.7m euros each quarter; it's impossible to know for sure, but I expect Canonical's would be higher (if they were lower, a $2.5m / year loss looks even worse, doesn't it?)
"When looking for information, though I may have missed something, I couldn't find anything stating that Shuttleworth invested more than the first 10 million into the project."
I've never seen any suggestion that it has any source of funding other than a) its own results and b) Mr. Shuttleworth's own investment, and by Mr. Shuttleworth's own admission, it is not currently "cash flow positive" and he expects to go on funding it for several more years. That is what he said in the conference call that led to this debate.
"How Shuttleworth chose to use his money to produce a business model differently than Mandriva did isn't a bad thing. He took an extremely innovative and risky approach to his idea"
How exciting! You seem to be saying that Mr. Shuttleworth has a business model - an extremely innovative and risky one, at that (though I'm not sure 'risky' is a good word when it comes to business plans. Try telling a source of external finance that your business plan is 'risky', and see where it gets you.)
Alright, I'll bite. What is this innovative and risky business model of Mr. Shuttleworth's? I'd love to know. Thus far, I have not been able to discern it.
254 • ref 242 backups (by Verndog on 2008-11-01 06:33:56 GMT from United States)
I don't leave my computer on. I turn it off after every use. A typical day I might have turned it on and off 10 -15 times. I definitely don't leave it on overnight. But I do understand you reasoning, especially for servers.
The speed of TrueImage is a side benefit, its the fact that it clones the partition and only backs up the used part of the partition. tar would do the same thing , but it just takes way too long. It takes TI 10 minutes, tar at least 30minutes.
255 • RE: 245 Absolute linux? (by ladislav on 2008-11-01 11:26:31 GMT from Taiwan)
They are announced - in the "Latest Distributions" section, front page, left column. These are just minor updates, so they won't be in the main news.
256 • Re: 129 (by Joe The Plumber on 2008-11-01 11:50:56 GMT from United States)
What risks? Nvidia provides full 3d support for old video cards through their legacy drivers, "the community" breaks that support, who is at fault?
No one is asking for you to support proprietary technology, we are asking for you to provide a stable API so our desktops don't break due to _your_ philosophy.
You can posture about software freedom(sic) all you want, but your philosophy has no business intruding on other's lives/livelihoods when it is unwanted because once it does, you become a tyrant. :)
257 • @257 (by Nobody important on 2008-11-01 18:11:55 GMT from United States)
I'll concede to you that Ubuntu 8.10 isn't a fantastic release. The more I use it (on an offline machine) the more odd behavior starts to pop up. I'm thinking about moving the machine over to Debian.
258 • comment 236 (by anon on 2008-11-01 20:56:26 GMT from United States)
see release notes and launchpad Ubuntu bug 259385
Just disable compiz prior to starting gnome
259 • Ubuntu 8.10 (by zac on 2008-11-02 02:46:24 GMT from Australia)
Ubuntu 8.10 is working perfectly on my desktop, actually every release of Ubuntu for the last 2 years has worked with no hassles and has improved with every release. It seems that the people who have something to complain about are the ones most likely to have the energy to post. I hope uninformed people don't forget this.
Technically, opensuse and fedora are also very good distros but I choose not to use them for other reasons. Mandriva, Debian, and opensolaris would maybe be my alternatives, but not in the foreseeable future.
260 • ref 259 (by Verndog on 2008-11-02 04:24:17 GMT from United States)
zac, While I agree what you say, as I have experienced the same thing, it has a lot to do with ones hardware. Wireless, graphics card, sound card, are all issues that plague every distro.
I have both Ubunto 8.01 and 8.10, Mandriva, Debian Lenny, and FreeBDS installed. They all come well prepared. I haven't installed Suse in a long time, but I'm sure their followers feel the same way.
261 • just reporting this (by capricornus on 2008-11-02 13:06:47 GMT from Belgium)
' till now, I did all the OS testing on a Gigabyte GA-MA69VM-S2 with AMD Athlon X2 4600 " 65W". As reported on DW several times, it is a picky system that only ran WinXP, and PCLOS and Xubuntu (IF: VLC and WINE worked well). EG Mandriva of Ultima without sound were eliminated after trying out (as reported on this site).
From now on I will do my testing on a XFX nForce610i GeForce 7050 with Intel Pentium X2 E2160. WinXP and PCLOS are doing fine, I knew that already, this weekend I've installed the latest Xubuntu 8.10_64 and Mepis 7.90 _64 (with apt-get install ia32-libs alright), VLC and CrossOver 7.10/WINE are doing fine. Xubuntu hasn't had any crashes till now, M8 did twice, as reported on their forum - could be a K-thing, I think.
262 • Backups (by Verndog on 2008-11-02 17:05:36 GMT from United States)
I think I may have found an alternative backup to either Ghost or Acronis.
Partimage. After installing Clonezilla and running it's confusing interface. I started googling around for Clonezilla Ubuntu and then realized the Clonezilla use a combination of several programs - drbl, partimage, dd.
The thing I like about Partimage is that it only backs up USED parts of the partitions. Just like Acronis Trueimage did, only Partimage will work with the newer Ext2/3, 256-byte Inodes.
263 • Любопытно (by Вилор on 2008-11-02 20:06:11 GMT from United States)
Интересненько, а кто может объяснить девушке как добавить этот блог в избранное?
264 • No DistroWatch Weekly today (by ladislav on 2008-11-02 23:33:53 GMT from Taiwan)
I caught some nasty virus on Friday and spent the whole weekend in bed with a fever. I feel a bit better today, but I don't think I'll be able to face a computer monitor all day in my current state. I'll do my best to get the DWW out on Tuesday or Wednesday.
In the meantime, if anybody wants to help out with an article or a review, please let me know - I'd really appreciate it!
265 • Don't come down too hard on me... (by Adam on 2008-11-03 02:07:10 GMT from Australia)
A virus? Sounds bad Ladislav. You should use Linux.
Sorry, couldn't resist...
266 • Thanks Codeweavers! (by Andrew P. Dickerson on 2008-11-03 03:07:55 GMT from United States)
Well the Codeweavers free Crossover Office giveaway is done, whew! It's the latest and greatest professional edition that they gave away with full licese key.
I just happen to be on this site when a person named Chris dropped the tip last Tuesday. The giveaway is completed no more request for keys will be granted acording to CW.
Thanks Chris but more importantly, Thanks Codeweavers for giving most of us Crossover Office 7.1 Professional.
267 • Wolvix/Puppy (by Wolvrik BuddhaDog on 2008-11-03 03:13:32 GMT from United States)
Wolvix and Puppy. These are two of the best distros around. Try them first.
268 • Adam Williamson's whining (by Josh on 2008-11-03 10:37:26 GMT from United States)
Wow. I've been trying to decide wether to put Ubuntu or Mandriva on my desktop for the last couple of weeks.
Adam's whiny, incoherent, sour-grapes ramblings have lead me to put on Ubuntu.
Way to go Adam! Thrash the man who's probably single-handedly responsible for the Linux boom of the last year or so. Simply because he's a Linux philanthropist, and chooses a business model that provides better community access than yours. You mention having written a similar proposal several years ago, on your blog.
So, the only difference between Mandriva and Canonical is that Mandriva chose the wrong business model, isn't in first place, and you can't quit bitching about it. And that's somehow Mark Shuttleworth's fault?
Who gives two damns wether his plan suites you? And if Ubuntu suddenly dried up, there are eleventy billion other great distros to choose from. Oh, and they're *free*, Adam. You're pissing and moaning that no one will pay you for free stuff is getting old quick, and not making either you or Mandriva any fans ;-)
You should thank Mr. Shuttleworth for the increased Linux visibility, visibility that is surely benefitting your company as well (what, you think your crappy products from 2 years ago would be as nice as they are today with the competition from Ubuntu? And you think people would actually continue to *pay* for a crappy Mandriva when better can be had for free from at least half a dozen distros *not* named Ubuntu?)
Thanks for helping me make my choice. All else being equal, I'll go with the guy who has class ;-)
269 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-11-03 13:24:34 GMT from Canada)
Josh, I have a strong feeling that you were already an Ubuntu fanboy and you made up this thrilling story on how you decided to use Ubuntu. It seems that you read the article and you didn't understand anything. That's OK, nobody expected you to understand. Be happy with Ubuntu, man.
270 • @264 (by Eyes-Only on 2008-11-03 13:44:54 GMT from United States)
Get well soon Ladislav---and don't worry about this week's DWW. If you even have to miss a week so be it. What matters is that YOU get back to 100% health.
Again mate: Get well soon, all right?
271 • Ladislav (by IMQ on 2008-11-03 13:55:53 GMT from United States)
I don't expect--or should I say 'I hope'-- you to don't read this for a couple days.
Sorry to hear about your catching a virus. I know what it's like to not feel well. It sucks big time when there are just so much one wants to do.
Get plenty of rest. And get well soon.
We, those who appreciate DW, know how hard you keep DW going but your health is more important. We look forward to the fruit of your labor when you are fully recovered!
272 • Ref 268 Ubuntu - Mandriva - blog (by Verndog on 2008-11-03 15:10:23 GMT from United States)
Actually that's similar to how I started using Ubuntu. I kept reading how bad, terrible Ubuntu was. It was on reading at the Sid forum that they were bad-mouthing the newest Ubuntu, when one of Sid's developers spoke out against doing that. It was then that I installed Ubuntu, thinking with all this bad talk, Ubuntu MUST be good...It was, and still is.
But now so is Mandriva. I have come to appreciated the distro. Regarding the blog in question. It is a blog afterall. Not really tied to Mandriva, and it does get people talking. I'm sure the author has new insights do to all the comments for and against.
I'm not tied to any product, but Ubuntu is the reason I was able to free myself from Windows. Maybe not entirely, but mostly. For that I'm thankful. It's Linux and all their developers that I'm really thankful for. They all need our support, money-wise and otherwise.
273 • Distro Representatives (by William T. Trotter on 2008-11-03 15:13:23 GMT from United States)
On balance, I find the postings of Adam Williamson, who has clearly identified himself as a Mandriva employee, to add value to the comments section of DistroWatch. However, I can't help but wonder whether I would be so positive were all the other major distros, with some level of commercial support (Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu, in particular), to assign personnel to wade in on their behalf. From time to time, one sees postings on behalf of one distro or another that suggest that it may be a loosely organized effort to boost a particular perspective, but I haven't yet quite seen an organized corporate level approach.
For what it's worth, I have tried and like many flavors of Linux but prefer the larger and more comprehensive versions. As a faculty member in the University System of Georgia, I have access to RHEL and am currently running a highly customized version of RHEL-5.2 server in which all the software, apart from the basic window managers, has been updated upstream. As an end result, we have access to the very latest Openoffice, Firefox, Inkscape, multimedia, acroread, etc. plus critical scientific tools like Maple 12 and Mathematica 6 and a vast array of compilers, etc. So the only down side is that the window manager/desktop is dated but rock steady. The rest is as current as you can find.
274 • @268 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-11-03 17:07:52 GMT from Canada)
"Way to go Adam! Thrash the man who's probably single-handedly responsible for the Linux boom of the last year or so."
And THAT'S the nub of the problem, right there.
Completely disregard the efforts of thousands of hard-working people, both volunteers and employees, working on the hundreds of projects that make up the free software desktop and the various distributions, in favor of one guy who happens to have a big pot of money?
Thank you for making my argument for me.
Mr. Shuttleworth is not single-handedly responsible for *anything*, and you're demeaning a lot of people in saying he is.
275 • @268, further (by Adam Williamson on 2008-11-03 17:12:48 GMT from Canada)
Sorry, I can't resist this.
"So, the only difference between Mandriva and Canonical is that Mandriva chose the wrong business model"
Wait, what? You're saying "be funded by a guy with a gigantic fortune who can throw away millions of dollars a year" is a business model anyone can just choose?
You've got an infinite supply of pliable millionaires hiding in your basement somewhere? Can I pick one and have her support the Life Of Luxury On A Large Desert Island business model I just thought up?
"And if Ubuntu suddenly dried up, there are eleventy billion other great distros to choose from."
Oh, yes? See my other discussion of this. It's not at all true. Most distributions are derivatives of others and would fold without them. There's a rather small range of general purpose, independently developed distros, partly as a result of Canonical's actions.
"Oh, and they're *free*, Adam. You're pissing and moaning that no one will pay you for free stuff is getting old quick"
Ubuntu isn't free. No commercial distribution is. Hundreds of people are paid to work on Ubuntu. Someone has to pay them. If you value their work, why aren't you paying them?
"And you think people would actually continue to *pay* for a crappy Mandriva when better can be had for free from at least half a dozen distros *not* named Ubuntu?"
If you really believed that, why were you trying to decide between Mandriva and Ubuntu? Wouldn't you been trying to decide between Ubuntu and those other half dozen distros?
276 • Puppy 4.1 (by Jerry B. on 2008-11-03 21:57:29 GMT from United States)
Installed the new Puppy (for the first time) in the hard drive of my old Gateway pc.
Mixed results: not as fast as I had hoped (Anti-X was faster, but had other diseases), but the installation went quickly and there is a nice choice of packages to work with.
Everything starts up almost instantly. The WM is a modification of IceWM, which is difficult to configure, but not impossible knowing where the various text-configuration files are.
No java in the browser, but it installs once the "pup" tool is uses from an old repository, which is offered in the software installation tool (nice touch).
This thing actually ran faster from RAM than it does on the HD. :O)
277 • quick clarification (by Jerry B. on 2008-11-03 21:59:55 GMT from United States)
The programs and aps start quickly, but they do not run as fast as I was hoping they would on the old nVidia FX5200 card in there.
I kind of like Puppy though. We'll see. I'll try to install it on this laptop on my spare hard drive. Networking should be a challenge. ;O)
278 • #276 Puppy (Anti-X was faster, but had other diseases) (by anticapitalista on 2008-11-03 23:25:55 GMT from Greece)
JerryB, what other diseases did antiX have?
BTW I think Puppy uses jwm not icewm
279 • Puppy, antiX, iceWM/jwm (by Jerry B. on 2008-11-04 01:02:58 GMT from United States)
I saw the /home/.icewm file in there along with the /home/.jwm one and assumed (incorrectly?) that jwm and iceWM are amalgamated in the Puppy distro. I do not know; this is my first try with Puppy.
I edited in both those folders trying to change the menu items; the edits stuck when I rebooted, but the changes only partially took place. For example I cannot get rid of the firefox entry in the internet section of the menu, but I can cause the order of items to change. ??
AntiX suffers from many maladies when trying to run on my old Gateway pc, not the least of which is its habit of becoming squirrely in the display following recovery from the screensaver. More than an annoyance, I had to reboot to get it back to normal every time I was a way from the computer long enough for the screensaver to invoke.
Also, it seems the eth0 network connection was at about 50% most of the time, when it runs regularly at 88% in most other distros and in Windows.
I gave up mainly because of the unreliability using the jre java plugin at various websites. Several reinstalls did nothing. Goodbye AntiX. :O( it was fast, but diseased in nearly every major area of operation on my old pc.
Other distros have run bettter; not perfect, but better than that for the most part. Puppy has had no display problems, for example.
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