| DistroWatch Weekly
|DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 235, 14 January 2008
Welcome to this year's second issue of DistroWatch Weekly! The release of KDE 4.0.0, the deepening crisis in Gentoo Linux and a series of announcements from the Fedora User and Developer Conference (FUDCon) dominated the headlines last week. As expected, the major new version from the popular desktop environment project received mixed reaction from distribution makers and users; while some distros were quick to release binary packages and special KDE 4 live CDs for users to sample the new code, it's clear that the first KDE 4 release is far from ready to take over our desktops. Also in this issue, openSUSE has published a roadmap leading towards the upcoming release of version 11.0 and VectorLinux has announced the first 64-bit edition of its Slackware-based distribution. Happy reading!
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Distributions and KDE 4
The long-awaited KDE 4.0.0 was released last week as scheduled. Even though the expectations -- following a couple of less than convincing release candidates -- weren't very high and the consensus was that the first release of KDE 4 would be more of a "technology preview" than a usable desktop environment for general deployment, it's hard not to see the enormous amount of good work that has gone into the new code. As Kubuntu's Jonathan Riddell put it, KDE 4 is the start of something amazing and this is possibly the best definition of the current release - it's here, it's available, but it's nowhere near ready for the prime time. It's a decent start, though. So let's give the KDE developers a round of applause for the courage to try something new and extraordinary, something that will eventually mature into a stable and reliable desktop environment we can all be proud to use on our computers.
Unsurprisingly, the reaction of distributions was a mixed bag. Although several major ones were quick to build binary packages for installation on their stable or development releases, or rushed to put together quick live CDs for easy testing, none seems to be in any particular hurry to switch its default desktop to the new KDE. Others are clearly not interested in making it available at all. Below is a summary of information about the availability of KDE 4.0.0 in various distributions.
The openSUSE project has a long history of directly supporting KDE development. As such, it is likely to be on the forefront of KDE 4 integration; in fact the current stable version, 10.3, comes with a few components from the new Qt/KDE 4 code base. As for the upcoming version 11.0, the KDE 4.0.0 packages are already in "factory" (openSUSE's development branch), but there is no word yet on whether KDE 4 will become the default KDE in 11.0. KDE 4.0.0 packages are also available for the stable openSUSE 10.3 and 10.2 via the openSUSE Build Service. As has become customary, Stephan Binner has created a new version of KDE Four Live, an openSUSE-based live CD featuring KDE 4; it can be downloaded from here: KDE-Four-Live.i686-1.0.iso (512MB, MD5, torrent).
Kubuntu is another distribution with a timely intent on providing KDE 4 packages for both its stable and development releases. Those running Kubuntu 7.10 or Kubuntu 8.04 Alpha 3 can install the new KDE by adding its repository to the sources.list and installing kde4-core; full instructions can be found here. This will install KDE 4 alongside the existing KDE 3.5 packages - perfect for a cautious test drive. The recently released CD images for Kubuntu 8.04 Alpha 3 still default to KDE 3.5.8 and so should the final release in April, but the Kubuntu development team has hinted that, starting from Kubuntu 8.10, it will concentrate on KDE 4 only. Those wishing to take an early peek at the KDE 4 integration with Kubuntu can also download a live CD containing Ubuntu 7.10 with KDE 4.0.0; here is the quick link: kubuntu-kde4.0-i386.iso (554MB, MD5).
A special live CD containing Kubuntu 7.10 with KDE 4.0.0 was made available last week.
(full image size: 579kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
Mandriva Linux is a distribution that has -- at least historically -- often exhibited more preference for KDE than other desktop environments. As such, it's only natural that the new KDE 4.0.0 packages are available in "cooker" (Mandriva's development branch) and that they can be installed alongside KDE 3.5.8 in the recently released second alpha of Mandriva Linux 2008.1. Binary packages for the stable Mandriva Linux 2008.0 have also been released. The final release of Mandriva 2008.1 will still default to KDE 3.5 though.
The Fedora distribution has traditionally been focusing on GNOME as its preferred desktop environments, but with the increasing community participation in the project, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised that KDE 4.0.0 is now included in "rawhide" (Fedora's development branch). Not only that, it also appears to be the default KDE (KDE 3.5.8 is present as well, but these packages have been renamed to kdebase3, kdelibs3, etc.). Moreover, the Fedora community has released an installable Fedora live CD containing a base system from the latest rawhide + KDE 4.0.0 - a good way to evaluate the progress Fedora has made since the release of version 8. The live CD is available for download from here: rawhide-KDE4-i686-20080109.4.iso (694MB, SHA1).
One other distribution that has put together a quick live CD image with KDE 4.0.0 is Shift Linux; however, this appears to be just a remastered Ubuntu with the latest KDE packages. More information is available here. Download: ShiftLinux-KDE-0.6.1.iso (481MB, MD5). (Please note that the above download link does not redirect correctly if accessed with wget or curl, so you'll have to rename the file after download.)
As for the rest, it seems that the policy is to hold back the introduction of KDE 4.0.0 into most distributions. Debian has had binary KDE 4 packages in the experimental branch for a while, but there seems to be no rush to move them into unstable in the foreseeable future. The developers of Gentoo Linux have hinted that KDE 4 might only enter the Portage tree with the release of KDE 4.1 - that is, at least six months from now (update - the KDE 4.0.0 packages were added to Portage on 18 January). The same is true for Arch Linux. As for Slackware, given its highly conservative attitude towards anything remotely experimental, there is virtually no chance that KDE 4 will make the "current" tree any time soon (third-party KDE 4.0.0 packages for Slackware 12.0 are available from here). Likewise, there are no signs of KDE 4.0.0 in the development trees of other independent distributions, including Frugalware Linux and Ark Linux (the latter has, however, promised a speedy integration of KDE 4 into the upcoming alpha version of 2008.1), while FreeBSD's ports tree still only lists KDE 3.5.8.
Fedora's new project leader, Gentoo's deepening crisis, VectorLinux for 64-bit processors
Following the recent resignation of Max Spevack as the Fedora Project leader, many Fedora fans were left wondering who would take over the responsibilities for the upcoming release of Fedora 9. The answer finally emerged last week: "I am very pleased to announce that Paul Frields has accepted a job with Red Hat, and he will be taking over as Fedora Project Leader in February. Many of you already know Paul. He has been part of the Fedora community since 2003, not long after the Red Hat Linux Project officially merged with the original Fedora.us. Paul has worked with Fedora's documentation, packaging, marketing, news, and artwork teams. He also served as one of the inaugural members of the Fedora Project Board." The above was published in Max Spevack's Fedora's way forward, a mailing list post summarising the discussions during the first day of Fedora User and Developer Conference (FUDCon), which took place in Raleigh over the weekend. Apart from announcing the name of the new Fedora project leader, the author also lists some of the project's achievements over the past two years and introduces Jack Aboutboul who has recently been transferred into a full-time job in Red Hat's marketing and brand communications group.
* * * * *
Gentoo Linux made the headlines last week and once again it was for the wrong reasons. It appears that the Gentoo Foundation's charter as a non-profit organisation was revoked several weeks ago, when it was discovered that all except two trustees had resigned or were unreachable: "There has not been any public explanation from the Foundation's trustees as to why this was allowed to happen, or what steps are being taken, if any, to fix this. This is very bad for the morale of the Gentoo community." The founder of Gentoo also offers a solution - his return as President of Gentoo Foundation: "If I return as President, I will preserve the not-for-profit aspect of Gentoo. Beyond this, you can expect everything to be very, very different than how things are today." The response by the Gentoo community was mixed - some launched a petition supporting the return of Robbins as the project's benevolent dictator, but others seem to be against the idea. Whatever your opinion, one thing is clear: a radical solution is needed to take Gentoo Linux out of the current quagmire. Failing that, the latest news item on the Gentoo Linux home page -- announcing the October 15 weekly newsletter -- could be the project's very last news release.
* * * * *
The VectorLinux development team has announced a new breakthrough - the first ever release of a 64-bit edition of the Slackware-based desktop distribution. VL64 5.9 Beta 1 is built on top of Bluewhite64 Linux, a project that recompiles Slackware source packages for the 64-bit architectures, but includes all the latest VectorLinux goodies, including Xfce, Fluxbox and JWM window managers, and the usual range of web browsers: "The VectorLinux team is pleased to announce the first public beta release of VL64 5.9-beta1. This is a true 64-bit Linux OS, that is based on BlueWhite64. The build has excellent 32-bit compatibility with Flash working out of the box. We have done our best to duplicate the look and features of the 32-bit edition. We have included the latest Xfce 4.4.2, Fluxbox and JWM window managers. Basically all has been recompiled from scratch to make 64-bit machines scream. We need to warn that this may be too fast for the average user so don't blame us if your PC goes up in flames!" Interested beta testers can download the installation CD image from here: VL64-5.9-STD-B1.iso (699MB, MD5).
|Released Last Week
PCLinuxOS 2008 "MiniMe"
Texstar has announced the release of PCLinuxOS 2008 "MiniMe" edition, a minimalist live CD with KDE: "Here is a little MiniMe 2008. It comes with 184.108.40.206 kernel, ALSA 1.0.15 and a very basic KDE 3.5.8 desktop. This is a minimal live CD that is bootable, plus it can be installed. Add in your own background, window decoration, localizations, preferred applications and supporting libraries to fully trick out your desktop. Other changes: I moved Internet and Clock setup to a Utilities folder on the users desktop. Only one question at boot to select the keyboard. Other utilities include ALSA sound configuration, ATI/NVIDIA installation tool, Make Live CD GUI, Make Live USB key and Redo-MBR with OS-probing utility for adding other GRUB boot entries into the GRUB menu. Root password and user setup moved to first boot after installation to hard drive. Also included are NdisWrapper support files." Here is the full release announcement.
Ultima Linux 8.3
Martin Ultima has announced the release of Ultima Linux 8.3, a user-friendly, Slackware-based live distribution with an automatic update tool: "Announcing the Ultima Linux 8.3 release! I'm not even going to pretend to write all this marketing rubbish, because quite honestly I'm not much good at it and it's a senseless waste of time. Really there's no point anyway, on the surface there's really nothing new - most of the changes are upgrades (kernel 220.127.116.11, KDE 3.5.8, Firefox 18.104.22.168, Thunderbird 22.214.171.124, OpenOffice.org 2.3.1), although you will probably see some really nice new wallpaper images in KDE. There have been a few fairly major changes with this release, so expect bugs, but then again that's what you get with pretty much any new software release... it seems to be stable on my machine anyway." See the release announcement and release notes for more information.
Ultima Linux 8.3 - featuring mostly package updates
(full image size: 148kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
DARKSTAR Linux 2008.1
The DARKSTAR Linux development team has announced the release of DARKSTAR Linux 2008.1, a beginner-friendly, Slackware-based distribution for the desktop: "We have the great pleasure to announce the version 2008.1 of the DARKSTAR Linux distribution. DARKSTAR Linux 2008.1 is a desktop oriented Linux operating system, which is easy to install, configure and use and which targets the beginners in Linux. It has many easy-to-use graphical tools, and a range of applications for office, multimedia and gaming. DARKSTAR Linux 2008.1 is published in a DVD ISO format; it can be run as a live system, or it can be install to hard drive. DARKSTAR Linux 2008.1 includes: Yet another Linux Installer (YaLI), Disk Manager, X.Org Setup, Network Configurator, Package Manager, Time Configurator, Services Configurator, Linux Kernel 126.96.36.199, KDE 3.5.8, OpenOffice.org 2.3.0, Firefox 188.8.131.52...." Read the rest of the release announcement for further details.
DesktopBSD 1.6, a user-friendly desktop operating system based on FreeBSD, has been released: "It is my great pleasure to announce the availability of DesktopBSD 1.6 final. This release is the first stable release of the 1.6 branch and comes with a great number of new features and improvements. It is based on the second release candidate of FreeBSD's upcoming production release 6.3 and provides the user with an enhanced KDE 3.5.8 desktop environment. The most notable new features are: X.Org release 7.3; live CD/DVD feature for testing the system without installation; revised installer supporting upgrades from 1.0 and previous 1.6 release candidates; improved package manager; inclusion of the NVIDIA graphics driver for hardware 3D rendering...." Read the release announcement and release notes for more details.
DesktopBSD 1.6 - based on the stable FreeBSD 6.x code
(full image size: 740kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
Voltalinux is a server-oriented GNU/Linux distribution based on Slackware Linux and the "pkgsrc" package management system from NetBSD. Voltalinux 2.0 "Viareggio", a new major update, was released yesterday: "Voltalinux 2.0 is out. Voltalinux 2.0 is based on the 2.6.21 kernel, Slackware 12.0, and pkgsrc-2007Q3. The big new feature is the installer. 120 packages ready to be installed (even those for Slackware 12.0). Like all the previous releases, Voltalinux 2.0 has no graphical user interface and is more server oriented as most of the packages are for server use. These include Postfix, Dovecot, SpamAssassin, Pure-FTPd, MySQL, Hylafax, Quagga, Exim, MaraDNS and many more." Here is the brief release announcement.
* * * * *
Development, unannounced and minor bug-fix releases
|Upcoming Releases and Announcements
The openSUSE project has published the development roadmap for the upcoming release of openSUSE 11.0. The new version will go through three alpha phases (the first of which is scheduled for later this week) and three beta ones before it reaches a release candidate status in late May. openSUSE 11.0 final will be released publicly on 19 June 2008. For a detailed listing of all dates please check out the openSUSE roadmap page.
* * * * *
Summary of expected upcoming releases
New distributions added to database
* * * * *
New distributions added to waiting list
- Doppix. Doppix is a Mandriva-based Linux distribution developed in Uzbekistan. The project's web site is yet to be completed at the time of writing, but the first test CD images are available for download from its FTP server.
- Linguas OS. Linguas OS is a PCFluxboxOS-based live CD adapted to translation work. It includes OpenOffice.org, Omega T (translation memory program), CAT software, Evince (PDF reader), and other basic tools that can be used for translation work. The main purpose of Linguas OS is to demonstrate to professionals in the translation industry that it is possible to use free and open source software to do their work.
* * * * *
DistroWatch database summary
And this concludes the latest issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 21 January 2008.
1 • Another top weekly roundup (by Andrew on 2008-01-14 10:40:51 GMT from Australia) |
Congrats on another good one :)
2 • KDE 4 (by frantic on 2008-01-14 10:41:16 GMT from United States)
I just can't understand why they release buggy piece of SW as reportedly new KDE is.
How should one know when it's finally the time to get KDE 4? Wait for 4.8? Or read reviews with every realease and finally decide when 80%+ reviewers say it's stable?
I always thought that when something is "released" it's stable and reasonably bug free. Guys at KDE should focus on "core" KDE (as graphical environment) and possibly KOffice, and let all other pieces to others (all those "K" something programs).
3 • KDE 4, Linux Mint (by Adam on 2008-01-14 11:08:11 GMT from United States)
I guess it's not enough for KDE to emulate Windows in functionality. Now they even want to do the same with buggy releases! That's why I'm sticking with Gnome.
I recently switched from Ubuntu to Linux Mint and I'm loving it! No problems whatsoever. Even Firefox seems to work out better. I used to have to install Opera for the certificate from my online banking to work correctly. Linux Mint "just works".
4 • FreeBSD (by Eric on 2008-01-14 11:10:45 GMT from Canada)
This year has been great for FreeBSD and the other BSD's in general as well, I am deploying 4 DesktopBSD 1.6 systems to friends and family and amd eagerly awaiting 7.0-RELEASE.
Congratulations to DesktopBSD for making a wonderful option, and Thank you to FreeBSD+ULE to kick some Linux kernel butt in SQL benchmarks :P
KDE4 ROCKS serious socks, and FreeBSD7+KDE4 lucks in my dreams everynight :).... waiting for its moment to take over haha.
PCLinuxOS LOOKS AMAZING, such a nicely slimmed down release, many thanks.
5 • DesktopBSD 1.6 (by John Lloyd on 2008-01-14 11:19:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
I just thought i'd like to publicly congratulate the DesktopBSD team for their excellent system. I am finding that its application performance is better than many of the big linux systems and that wireless support is superior. The fact that it is based on FreeBSD ensures that it is very stable, whilst the team have done as much as possible to ease desktop installation. DesktopBSD has kept the best of FreeBSD, its huge software repository adding desktop enhancements are well thought through and unobtrusive. This is truly worthy of a full review on Distrowatch soon.
6 • VLOS distro (by Gene Lake on 2008-01-14 11:45:21 GMT from United States)
The development of VLOS seems to be at a stand still? Does anyone know what going on with this distro?
7 • MiniMe (by Gene Venable on 2008-01-14 11:51:58 GMT from United States)
I found the PCLOS distro of MiniMe downright primitive with regard to installing a working wireless connection for my BCM43xx card. No thanks, I'll go back to Puppy or Wolvix or many other more wireless-friendly distros.
Since I have two laptops running BCM43xx cards, it is my impression that there must be quite a few of them out there, and I am surprised that it is so much of a hassle to get mine working. I really don't want to go download stuff, I would rather just type a few commands and get it going, ok?
8 • BCM43XX and Linux (by Geoff on 2008-01-14 12:11:46 GMT from United States)
Re post #7, I strongly urge installing the new Mepis!
That was one of my concerns through many distributions. Finally, Mepis 7. :)
9 • DesktopBSD (by sev on 2008-01-14 12:29:18 GMT from Spain)
I tried the release of DesktopBSD and from the user´s point of view there is almost nothing distinguishing it from any other KDE-based Linux distro. Only the graphical frontend for "ports" is the difference but every distro has it's package manager. But even that crashed for me. Not starting flames but PCBSD is a bit more polished and outstanding IMHO. Being critical about all this PCLinuxOS hip I tried the new MiniMe and it's really a good thing though. Have a nice day/night :)
10 • VirtualBox 1.5.4 & Austrumi 1.6.5 / 1.6.6 now working (by RichardS on 2008-01-14 12:29:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
Good news: The latest versions of Austrumi (1.6.5 & 1.6.6) are now working again with the new version of VirtualBox (1.5.4). (Recent versions of Austrumi 1.6xx did not work with VirtualBox 1.5.2)
There is a new minor glitch in the language switcher in Austrumi:
When booted into (US) English using the boot code "al lang_en" some of the menus remain in Latvian until the GUI language switching tool is used to switch the language into (US) English.
Also, the Bon Echo 184.108.40.206 web browser appears to have Latvian menus on its first opening, but revert to (US) English if closed then re-opened.
Now that Austrumi contains Skype etc., its size has increased to over 80MB but it is still very fast.
11 • KDE4 (by Allan Cairns on 2008-01-14 12:54:38 GMT from Australia)
I admire the courage of the KDE team in embarking on such a fundamental change in their product. The KDE4 build in Ubuntu Gutsy is quite stable (albeit a little rough around the edges and missing some features). While I won't be using it as my primary desktop I do play around from time to time and look forward to 4.1 blowing all of us away. Finally we will be able to point to a Linux distribution (whether it be Suse, Kubuntu or others) that provides the kind of gorgeous and seamless desktop experience only OSX has delivered and that Microsoft can only dream of.
12 • KDE4's not released too early (by lefty.crupps on 2008-01-14 13:03:53 GMT from United States)
Release early, release often, correct?
KDE4 may not have all of its bells and whistles yet, but its a stable window manager with a lot of new technology; if you want users to test and bug report against it, it needs to come out, be usable, and be used.
I for one am finding it great for its overall looks, if not yet its minor capabilities...
13 • RE: 2 Yes, minus the judgements (by SFN on 2008-01-14 13:24:39 GMT from United States)
There's a lot here that is very negative towards KDE and its developers and I think that's unfortunate. However, there are some questions here that should be considered
"How should one know when it's finally the time to get KDE 4? Wait for 4.8? Or read reviews with every realease and finally decide when 80%+ reviewers say it's stable?"
I would imagine that by the time KDE 4 really is really is running at full speed, many people will no longer be paying attention because they will have become numb to the hype. Just think about how many "well, it works for me" stories we'll hear between now and then.
14 • DesktopBSD (by My Linux Page on 2008-01-14 13:41:22 GMT from United States)
DesktopBSD is starting to turn heads. I have always been into CentOS for servers but I'm starting to play with DesktopBSD and it really is a great OS distribution. Since it's Open Source I can modify it to my hearts content.
15 • No KDE 4.0 in Gentoo? (by Omari on 2008-01-14 14:00:40 GMT from United States)
One reason I used to use Gentoo was because the latest software was in the Portage tree, and was integrated into a (somewhat) stable system by being marked stable within a few months.
I stopped using Gentoo in part because new software stayed in testing forever, and bugs weren't fixed. For instance Python 2.5 is still in unstable and it's been out for over a year. Most distros like SUSE and Ubuntu have switched to Python 2.5.
Now they're saying KDE 4.0 might not even be in the tree?
Maybe drobbins can rescue Gentoo, or maybe some other distro (Sabayon?) will step in and fill the void.
16 • Enough KDE 4 Bashing. (by TheGreatGonzo on 2008-01-14 14:03:43 GMT from United Kingdom)
Is it me or has everyone else had enough of the KDE bashing.
Right from the start of the 4 development work it was outlined that 4 is a devleopers release. Like someone else posted here release early, release often. No one is forcing anyone to use it over 3.5.8.
All this comparing it to Windoz is pointless, KDE'ers do not go round accusing GNOME of ripping off OSX do they??
The question I am dying to find out is how people will react when GNOME 3 is released??
17 • KDE 4 (by afonic on 2008-01-14 14:13:44 GMT from Greece)
Personally I think KDE folks made the right decision. Now bugs are going to get fixed much faster and devs of other programs will speed up knowing KDE 4 is not something that will eventually be release but it is there.
Remember a DE is not something you just download and install. All major and minor distros ship and will ship with 3.5.x until KDE 4 is ready for prime time. So the average user will not experience the first bitter taste of what 4 is right now. They have a solid base, time to improve and polish it and it will be ready.
It may be a risky forecast but imo we'll see the "real" KDE 4 in about a year from now.
18 • Ultima Linux ... (by Chris on 2008-01-14 14:39:06 GMT from France)
Is there an award for the 'ultimate' vanity distribution?
19 • KDE4 and MEPIS7 (by CeVO on 2008-01-14 14:44:35 GMT from Spain)
I tried KDE4 on a Debian Etch/Lenny install on a spare partition. It is promising to be a great KDE version, and yes, it needs time to mature. Consider it like a framework. All the building blocks and foundations are in place, it is usable but not complete and with inevitable glitches.
I am in no rush to have KDE4 as my desktop, since I want my machines to work. My distro of choice, MEPIS 7, is solid as a rock, and until KDE4 can meet the MEPIS stability requirements, it'll have to wait.
20 • No subject (by matyas on 2008-01-14 14:58:23 GMT from Argentina)
Im saddened by the whole Gentoo problem.
Just by seeing the Gentoo homepage i get depressed. Last post October... Anyway i feel like the whole project is stagnating. Lots of good developers leaving, many new ones loose strength when they realise there is no leadership.
I myself am leaving. Thinking about Arch or Freebsd.
21 • great weekly (by random guy at 2008-01-14 15:08:41 GMT from United States)
thanks for the great weekly. a little short but hey its not your fault little other than kde4 happened this week.
22 • DesktopBSD (by relativ on 2008-01-14 15:17:23 GMT from United States)
I'd like to second the request for a comprehensive DBSD review here at Distrowatch. Everyone should hear about this OS.
What this development team has done is amazing.. I've been playing with the 1.6 final release all weekend and it's just about everything I've ever wanted in an OS. Now if we could just get Adobe to give us flash 9 for BSD, the picture would be complete.
Thanks to the DesktopBSD team!
23 • Slackware (by Slackware_ on 2008-01-14 16:03:22 GMT from Brazil)
"As for Slackware, given its highly conservative attitude towards anything remotely experimental, there is virtually no chance that KDE 4 will make the "current" tree any time soon."
Which is the BEST thing around Slackware!!!
KDE4 packages for Slackware here:
24 • KDE4 and Frugalware Linux (by Gabriel C on 2008-01-14 16:09:31 GMT from Germany)
Being the KDE maintainer of Frugalware Linux I have to say 'there are no signs of KDE 4.0.0 in the development trees' is not really right for Frugalware :)
It is to late for KDE4 for our upcoming 0.8 stable release for a lot reasons and therefore it cannot be moved from 'playground' to any 'current' repos yet.
In meantime we are working on complete replacement for KDE3 what means again 0.9 will have probably KDE 4.1.
We will provide a separate KDE4.0.* repo and a LiveCD for our users as well soon.
25 • RE 15 (by fdavid on 2008-01-14 16:20:20 GMT from Germany)
There are opverlays in gentoo, where the latest releases get tested.
26 • PCLinuxOS MiniMe (by robzilla on 2008-01-14 16:24:52 GMT from United States)
I downloaded and installed PCLOS mini-me on my Toshiba Laptop with a 1.7 core duo.
Everything went extremely easy. My sound card worked perfectly, resolution set, wireless, firewall, etc. Easy install and very fast too. I think the whole process from slipping the live cd in until I re-booted into my new system was about 20 minutes! Awesome.
I really think that this is the way for a distro to be built. I think PC-BSD started the minimal desktop install, and I am others probably before that. It is not an original idea but I think may be the wave of the future. For newbies a full cd image with all the default software is good but for the rest of us it is just clutter.
I always hated looking at my linux application menus because I did not know what half of the applications were!! Now with PCLOS mini I can use synaptic and choose exactly what I want and do not have redundant apps that I never use doing the same thing. Sure you can uninstall but who wnats to spend hours un-installing several apps?
With all of the publicity Texstar has had and my past experiences with PCLOS I was not to sure what to expect. I have not used it in some time. I am happy to say this is a very good system. Everything works well, seems very stable. So far I really like it! A quick download, quick install and you are good to go!
27 • PCLinuxOS 2008 MiniMe; KDE4. (by bretzel on 2008-01-14 16:28:05 GMT from Canada)
I am disapointed of PCLOS 2008 ( minime )
It is more looking as if PCLOS gnome edition pushed to rush a release of minime because I've encountered several glitches with it (here is the most :)
1 - My eth0 is Attansic atl1 so ATL1 module everywhere in linux world into 2.6.2x+ , I had to manually load the module at every boot ( /etc/modules is loaded with module names and atl1 is no exception: nothing is autoloaded from this file ) -and PCLOS 2007 cannot run into my new PC
2- Dislike the theme that is between dark crystal and Vista-like bull*** -- but its a question of personal taste - I cannot argument here (...)
3- Feel it is a rushed failure release. I don't understand PCLOS is still #1 here... must be a trick...
On the other hand, it IS a very good Linux preview for newbies though. That is all.
I don't understand people complaining about early 4.0.0 release.
It is more a preview release, I just tried OpenSUSE KDE4 live and I am really seriously impatient and excited to get into KDE4 when it will be mature and usable.
KDE4 is not yet ready ? so what!! I will wait and plunge when it is - that' s it!!!
Thank you KDE developers!! continue your great works.. looking forward to KDE4.1 :-)
28 • DesktopBSD is awesome (by Markyman on 2008-01-14 16:30:26 GMT from United States)
I'd also like to add to the rancor requesting a full review of this fantastic distro. Let's hope that FreeBSD 7.0 gets finished soon and incorporated into DesktopBSD!!
I'm also a fan of PCLINUXOS and wish the best for this excellent distro as it maintains its chart-topping following.
29 • If Gentoo is down , Debian & BSD are still in the field (by dooooo on 2008-01-14 16:43:23 GMT from Jordan)
I had a look at freshports.org the other day and I have to say I was very impressed .Almost 18,000 packages with about 2000 newly added every year . All the basics I need are available . Maybe in 2010 BSDs will compete with Debian .
30 • @7 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-01-14 16:49:25 GMT from Canada)
There is, in fact, no reliable way to legally include a driver for a Broadcom wireless chip that will work without external downloads.
The native driver - bcm43xx, or b43 - requires firmware to work correctly. This firmware can *only* be acquired by extracting it from a Windows driver for the card. Every available copy of the Windows driver for Broadcom cards is licensed in such a way that it cannot legally be packaged into a Linux distribution.
Using ndiswrapper, the alternative method, of course also requires the Windows driver.
The only way either method can work without an external download is if you already have a Windows driver for the chip on your system, but this cannot be relied upon.
Any distro which allows a Broadcom chip to work out of the box without an external download (or without discovering a copy of the Windows driver already present on your machine) is breaking the law by including either a full Windows driver, or the firmware extracted from it, in clear breach of the license.
31 • 20 : agree (by sika on 2008-01-14 16:51:48 GMT from Germany)
I am a Gentoo user too. Im not as pesimistic since i think DRobbins will bring some movement to the equation.
Im dualbooting Gentoo and Arch now. Im very impressed !!
32 • Qu 29 What is the meaning of a package number based competion? (by dbrion on 2008-01-14 16:57:40 GMT from France)
Almost 18,000 packages with about 2000 newly added every year . All the basics I need are available . Maybe in 2010 BSDs will compete with Debian .
Qu 1 :
Are they maintained?
How many architectures does BSD support? (not only Intel and AMD?)
each R "library" (they are about 1000, to day, among the open source ones) can (and many of them *are*, if they are old enough) be converted in a Debian package (as can be every part of Perl modules, etc, etc...). One could even make two packages out of one R library (basic (for embedded/ real time) + doc, examples). (and sometimes packages are split into three : doc, dev headers and routinely used). That makes a 2 or 3 factor, depending on the policies...
How can one get any sense out of pure counting ???
Who would be interested in such a rational competition?
33 • #32 (by dooooo on 2008-01-14 17:22:42 GMT from Jordan)
I'm aware of all the points you made . I was just describing the statistics available in the site . The growth rate of package numbers indicates an active community . The big number of packages makes it more likely to find what you need . And finally due to the fact that almost all "repos" are "modular" comparing the total number of packages gives us an idea about the "real" size of the "repo" .
34 • Re 33 (by dbrion on 2008-01-14 17:33:43 GMT from France)
"I was just describing the statistics available in the site "
You copied, without interpretation (or oversimplistic one) some figures.
"The growth rate of package numbers indicates an active community "
Or a copying one. (the policy : one package= one responsible makes there is at least one person who knows the use of the package! and that it is maintained)
"The big number of packages makes it more likely to find what you need ."
Going to the origin (sourceforge, CRAN, CPAN) is often more efficient.
So are coding skills...
The definition of needs is very complicated: one can live (1)50 years before creating a (or many) soft one needs..... That is not that vital....
35 • Minime (by Anonymous on 2008-01-14 17:47:22 GMT from United States)
The biggest problem with Minime isn't that it doesn't work right. The biggest problem is that PCLOS gurus say that there is no problem (one says, "I fail to see any 'problem'.")
I have two different common MB/chipsets that work fine with most distros, including PCLOS 2007, and I can't just boot up Minime. There is ample evidence in the PCLOS forum that others have the same and similar problems.
But it's likely that many reports will follow the lead of PCLOS gurus, and #26 above, and leave the full story out of their "reviews". So people will not know that Minime truly works no better than a typical small distro.
Cheerleading has become common and accepted, even though it rewards mediocrity. IMO, this approach... the acceptance of mediocrity... works against the advance of desktop Linux.
Minime is a decent hobbiest distro, like many others. No better. No worse. But the lack of recognition and proper response to problems is disappointing.
36 • 29, 32 (by Anonymous on 2008-01-14 17:57:41 GMT from United States)
My frustration with the current state of Debian Lenny has led me to start looking for other distros. Package numbers are very misleading. Some are old, some just don't work. Sid is not stable (as should be the case, given that it is labeled "Unstable"), Etch is old, and backports is not a complete answer.
I'll probably move to Arch (I've posted Arch experiences before). I'm disappointed with Debian after having had good experiences for a long time. I tried Ubuntu, but that seems to have all of the Debian bugs plus some polish plus Ubuntu bugs.
Right now, my ranking is
I've tried many others, and considered seriously:
Gentoo, T2, Sabayon - source distros are not for me
Crux - they're afraid of documentation, there's limited support available, and there is much unnecessary configuration
Gobolinux - maybe in a couple of years
DesktopBSD - possible but I don't know anything about BSD (nice looking Live CD) so I can't use it as my main work machine, and it doesn't work in Virtualbox
Linux From Scratch - I'm about a third of the way finished, but it's definitely not suitable as a work machine
37 • ArchLinux (by Menokh on 2008-01-14 18:05:43 GMT from United States)
You're right that there is no official KDE4 binary for Arch yet, but the KDEMod team that distributes a modular version of the latest in KDE3.5 has released testing packages of KDE4 for anyone who wants to install them on Arch Linux.
They may not install at the time of this writing as a code change in PacMan has broken some third party packages that will need to be fixed. But KDEMod has had testing KDE4 packages available to the Arch community since December.
38 • Com 36 : xxBSD and Virtualbox (by dbrion on 2008-01-14 18:09:37 GMT from France)
"DesktopBSD - possible but I don't know anything about BSD (nice looking Live CD) so I can't use it as my main work machine, and it doesn't work in Virtualbox
Have you tried PCBSD? Last year, in march, it worked well for me under qemu; in october, the next version went on working for me ... under VMplayer... (I was too lazy to verify with two emulators). (it had less flaws than rofriesbee in november 2007).
The main issue I saw last year with Virtualbox was ... VB was young, though sexy... Perhaps the last versions are/will be less weird.
39 • @36 - debian alternative (by CeVO on 2008-01-14 18:11:50 GMT from Spain)
If you are looking for a Debian based distro, with Etches stability but many up to date packages rolled into it, try MEPIS 7:
- kernel 2.6.22
- KDE 3.5.8
- OOo 2.03
- FF 220.127.116.11
- TB 18.104.22.168
- Amarok 1.4.7 (1.4.8. supplied by community)
- and the list goes on
The MEPIS community are creating a repo to backport requested apps. MEPIS 7 will be providing a rolling upgrade scheme.
Looks like it might be what you are looking for.
40 • No subject (by SlackKing on 2008-01-14 18:16:05 GMT from United Kingdom)
Yes, BSD is excellent - but not DesktopBSD, which is cr*p. It is US-o-centric, doesn't have very robust graphics detection, hard disc recognition is poor and they seem ignorant of PPPoA. In detail there is a long list of failings.
PC-BSD is the one to go for - they have an excellent grasp of hardware detection and manipulation, don't make simple things difficult and have a good grasp of global operational systems. They are between major releases at present, but when they move to their next version would be an appropriate time for a review.
If it's speed, simplicity and security you need, PC-BSD is the answer.
41 • @ 36 (by Bestiapeluda on 2008-01-14 18:16:47 GMT from Germany)
You cant go wrong with Arch. You will like pacman if you liked apt. I like it even better(its better when removing packages).
And BSD ist that hard. Any Linux user can switch to BSD without much problem(FreeBSD has a lot of documentation ).
42 • RE: #36 Debian (by Dutchy on 2008-01-14 18:29:25 GMT from Netherlands)
Arch is certainly an option, but you may want to try sidux. That way you get the new packages of Sid with a bit more stability thanks to the wonder people that monitor Sid and fix problems or put things on hold so they don't harm your system. Anyone capable of running Arch can handle sidux with little difficulty.
43 • @ 42 (by Bestiapeluda on 2008-01-14 18:41:20 GMT from Germany)
Yep, Sidux is really great. The people there really make Sid stable.
Definetly worth to try.
44 • ranks (by Bestiapluda on 2008-01-14 18:44:30 GMT from Germany)
funny how all Distros I like begin at rank 13 and further down the list
45 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-01-14 19:11:50 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the suggestions.
@38, 40: I've not tried PCBSD. I've read that DesktopBSD is better for newbies (again, I don't know much about BSD) but perhaps I should try PCBSD. Qemu seems to work with any distro I've tried, but is slow. One of the things I'm upset with in Debian is that I can't get KVM working. I see that PCBSD offers a downloadable VMWare image, so obviously it should be easy to try it out that way.
@39, 42, 43: I'm a Gnome user, when I looked at Sidux months ago, they had no Gnome desktop, so I didn't try it. I've only tried Mepis when it was based on Ubuntu. I do not know what Gnome support they've got, but will try it.
@41: I've run Arch in Virtualbox for a month now and love Pacman. What I really like, though, is ABS. Sometimes I build versions of the latest software just for the heck of it. In many cases it's just a matter of changing the version number in the PKGBUILD and typing makepkg. ABS is why Arch is at the top of my list.
46 • Arch (by Jan O on 2008-01-14 19:36:41 GMT from Netherlands)
I agree that Arch is the best Linux-distro, when you have succeeded in installing it the right way. Then the application are superbly accurate updated.
However the command-line part of the distro-install, after the basic-install and before the KDE/Gnome-install, will only succeed by Linux-code-interested people.
There are too many manuals, too many text, not enough specific focus (look at AUTOMATIX for Ubuntu, that is pure specific).
For instance the specification on what to include and not-include in the DEAMON-spec is scattered all around the manual.
Can the Arch-supporters maybe make this command-line-part of installing easier?
47 • KDE 4 (by Brian B on 2008-01-14 19:54:49 GMT from Canada)
There seems to be an awful lot of bashing of KDE 4. I installed it as naturally I was curious. While it has been a long time since I have used KDE at all, I find that KDE 4 is just a little too different at this time for me to switch full time from Gnome. However, I can appreciate the developer's efforts as this looks very promising. I will continue to play with it periodically. The Ubuntu build seems stable, and the use of system resources seems like a positive step.
The greatest thing about Linux has always been that you have choice, and you aren't locked into someone else's idea of what the Desktop should look like. For those of you that are not happy, just make the choice, and not use the software, instead of being so openly critical of someone else's efforts.KDE4 will eventually have a very loyal following.
48 • BSD (by Henry of Africa on 2008-01-14 20:28:08 GMT from United States)
I'd like to second the nice things that have been said about DesktopBSD 1.6. It's coming along nicely. And let's not forget its FreeBSD cousins, PC-BSD and Rofreesbie, both of which are entirely graphical now and just about as easy to learn/use as any flavor of Linux.
By the way, does anyone know how Gael Duval is coming along with his Ulteo distribution?
49 • Gloomy future for Gentoo? (by areuareu on 2008-01-14 20:47:17 GMT from France)
I am a Gentoo user and I shall stick with it, as long as it works as it is working now. The surprising part of Gentoo is that while everything hints at a complete absence of leadership, the portage tree is still updated quite regularly, the distribution is never broken. I use a 64 bits mix of testing and stable, which is risky, I update several times a week and I have never experienced a crash or a broken system since the 2006.1 upgrade, while my Debian (Lenny) partition is currently without sound and without X.
Gentoo is unbeatable in terms of flexibility and I shall miss it if it ever disappears. I am not that concerned though, It will most probably overcome the current crisis.
50 • RE 46 - Arch isn't the greatest for everyone (by KimTjik on 2008-01-14 20:59:03 GMT from Sweden)
I think it's alright for me to quote an essential part of the ArchWiki ("The Arch Way"):
"Whereas many Linux distributions attempt to be more 'user-friendly', Arch Linux has always been, and will always remain 'user-centric'.
Arch Linux makes the user the center of the system by giving them full, and only full, control over the system.
Arch Linux users fully manage the system on their own. The system itself will offer little assistance, except for a simple set of maintenance tools that are designed to perfectly relay the user's commands to the system.
The user-centric design also implies a certain “do it yourself” approach. Rather than requesting a new feature be implemented by developers, Arch Linux users have a tendency to solve problems themselves and share the results with the community and development team. This is especially true for user-contributed packages found in the Arch User Repository -- the official Arch Linux repository for community-maintained packages."
Arch is frank and honest: it's for users that feel at home with the above description, but not for all. Many, myself included, are feeling "organically" at home with Arch. Distributions have different goals and visions. Instead of wishing that distinct features that attracts certain users were eradicated, we do better in appreciating and respecting such diversity. Many Arch users would become very saddened to see anything like "Automatix" being implemented, because it so against the Arch concept.
I for example don't want any changes to how daemons are managed in Arch. I have been frustrated about how daemons were automatically started when installed in some systems, and that you had to either know a distro-specific command to get off the list of auto activated daemons, or search for some GUI control application. In Arch on the other way a simply edit rc.conf file; I simply add to the line DAEMONS=( ) whether I want kdm, gdm or slim for example as a login manager, or I want some other daemon to be started at boot like "foldingathome", "mpd" or something else. For me that's as simple as it gets.
With the current leadership I'm sure Arch will stay on track for a long time to come, be true to its way. To compromise the way would probably lead to nothing else but a distorted malfunctioning distribution in the end. Arch user should suffer or be deprived of their favorite features because not everyone share the same vision.
I'm not critisizing you personally in any way, I'm only trying to convey my view on it as a satisfied Arch user. In my opinion there's more or less a distribution in everyone's liking... and disliking.
51 • Kudos to Mandriva and Adam Williamson (by Wahoo on 2008-01-14 20:59:07 GMT from United States)
After less than spectacular experiences with Mandrake/Mandriva in the past, I have been running 2008 One for months without issue on a Dell Inspiron 600m. A few months back, I was very critical here of Mandriva for not opening their documentation and resources to non-Club members, and refused offers of assistance from Adam to resolve my software issues as a perhaps misguided form of protest. I was a jerk about it, in retrospect.
Mandriva, thank you for changing your policies. Many resources once available only to paid Club members are now open to everyone. The 2008 release is a joy to use. Adam Williamson is a credit to Mandriva and Linux in general. Thank you for your earlier offer of assistance and your continued valuable input for others here and elsewhere.
If I have problems or suggestions, I will contribute my input to the appropriate forum or list. Should Mandriva prove to be a consistent performer, I'll consider a subscription. Thanks again.
52 • @ 46 (by Bestiapeluda on 2008-01-14 21:02:06 GMT from Germany)
Although it is true that the Arch installation is not graphical, its an easy step by step ncurses installation. And the Wiki is just great.
Then of course you have a very basic initial system. Its up to you to install what you want and ONLY what you want. So you end up having a very light and fast OS. Its all about choice.
53 • oh, among other mistakes this one has to be corrected (by KimTjik on 2008-01-14 21:03:01 GMT from Sweden)
"Arch user should suffer or be deprived of their favorite features because not everyone share the same vision."
should of course be "... should not suffer..."
54 • @51 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-01-14 21:10:40 GMT from Canada)
That's great to hear, don't hesitate to post in the forums if you have problems, or even if you don't :). Glad you're enjoying 2008.
55 • Arch Daemons (by Woodgypsy on 2008-01-15 00:08:48 GMT from Canada)
While I do like the way Arch handle its daemons, I think its documentation about daemons can be improved. What I think it needs is a page with comprehensive lists of commonly used daemons and what they can do/what packages they relate to. Sometimes it is confusing to find out which exact daemons I need to load for whatever purposes I have in mind, which daemons conflict will each others, and so on. But I agree that Arch is great once it is set up property.
About KDE4, I must admit I haven't tried yet. However, some of ideas it brings sound very promising to me, so I am looking forward to it.
56 • installers (by HeirateMich on 2008-01-15 01:20:38 GMT from United States)
I do not know about you, but i just LOVE those distros with cryptic,
non-graphical installers. I'm sure noobies coming over from Windows
get a big kick out of fooling with them.
57 • Question for all? (by JAG on 2008-01-15 01:46:15 GMT from United States)
What's the best ...
Hard Drive Wipe/Erase Tool?
58 • 56, 50 (by Anonymous on 2008-01-15 02:27:00 GMT from United States)
@56: Arch doesn't have any interest in Windows users, though the community is happy to help a Windows user interested in Arch. There are plenty of GUI installer distros for anyone who wants them.
@50: You are right on the money. I've concluded that Arch is like a good doctor. It gives you what you need, not what you think you want.
59 • 57 (by Anonymous on 2008-01-15 02:35:50 GMT from United States)
Have you tried shred?
60 • Hard Drive Wipe Tool (by Carl on 2008-01-15 02:45:00 GMT from United States)
DBAN (Darik's Boot and Nuke)
61 • Screen resolutions common for Linux. (by a_scapegoat4u at yahoo on 2008-01-15 04:15:40 GMT from United States)
I am bewildered at how tiny most distributions of Linux try to set my screen resolution by default. (Note, for example, a resolution of 1920×1200 on a standard screen will make the detail of the screen very small, though the resolution is supposedly "big") I have a 19" screen, yet I have to slide up with my nose against the screen and my bifocals adjusted. Exactly who are the distributions of Linux being targeted at? Is the Linux community trying to force all end users to purchase 22 inch or larger monitors? Is the Linux community trying to make 1280x1024 pixels (or greater) the new standard? MEPIS, which I've found to be somewhat dependable in the past, has been letting me down lately. In a recent install, I changed my resolution to 1024×768 so that I could see the tiny fonts on the screen; and MEPIS makes the frames and boxes bigger but the text seems smaller, though it may have stayed the same size. Kanotix has bettered most distributions of Linux in the sphere of practacality. And the safe boot mode in most Linux distributions is a joke. The F8 key in Windows is a true safe boot mode. But I have yet to find a version of Linux that has a safe boot mode that can do for Linux what the old dependable F8 does for Windows. The only version of Linux I've tried that has never let me down is Puppy Linux. If I could only have one version of Linux, based on my experiences, Puppy Linux would be my choice. It puts the big boys to shame.
62 • RE: 57 (by IMQ on 2008-01-15 04:29:10 GMT from United States)
The one mentioned by Carl is the one I use for internal HD.
I believe you can also use the command 'dd' under Linux to perform HD wiping. If interested, you can do a quick Google for the syntax, but from my rusty memory, it is something like: (for this example, assume the HD is /dev/hda)
(1) wipe with zero pattern (fastest)
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
(2) wipe with random pattern (more secure wiping)
dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda
or combine the two: (basically securely wiping then fill the HD with zero)
dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda && dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
I only tried these command a couple times in the past because the HDs are internal. DBAN, if I understand it correctly, does not work on external drive like USB or Firewire.
Beware that it takes a long time to wipe the HD, depending on size of the HD. I don't remember how long but it took over 12 hrs to wipe a 160-GB HD.
If you decide to give DBAN a spin, physically disconnect all but the one you want to wipe. DBAN will wipe ALL the drives it can find. Be careful!
63 • Re 61, Resolutions and Small Characters (by Soloact on 2008-01-15 05:17:36 GMT from United States)
Generally, one should use the monitor's "native resolution". If one cannot see the characters or icons due to them being "too small", then one could always enlarge the icons, and set a larger minimum-size on the fonts, to sizes of their liking. This is true with any OS / monitor combination. Higher resolutions are becoming the "norm". I had a problem with resolution and color depth on an old laptop, so I edited it to my liking, and to what worked. This was true with any OS on that lappy, as is probably true with a lot of older hardware.
64 • Years Too Late (by Tinkerbel McMoanerhan on 2008-01-15 06:05:03 GMT from United States)
What I don't understand about DesktopBSD is why they're so slow in getting a system based on the latest FreeBSD out of the door - FreeBSD 6 was released over 2 years ago, and only now do DesktopBSD incorporate it into a release, when the FreeBSD 7.0 release is imminent!
Being a BSD fan, I sincerely hope we won't have to wait until 2010 before a DesktopBSD based on FreeBSD 7 is released..
Come on guys, step it up a couple of notches!
65 • Best Wifi Project (by Ultra on 2008-01-15 07:07:47 GMT from Canada)
Is there any concensus on what is the best Linux wifi project?
66 • #64 Late? (by herman_m on 2008-01-15 08:43:23 GMT from Netherlands)
Maybe they're 'understaffed'.
In any case, they're all doing it uncompensated, in their own time, and probably not with an army of fans like Ubuntu has.
You are, of course, free to join them.
67 • 7 • MiniMe (by Gene) (by Anonymous on 2008-01-15 10:44:14 GMT from United States)
The ndiswrapper files are right on the livecd for bcm43xx support. I know because I tested it on an HP laptop and was up and going in less than a minute. ndiswrapper-bcmwl5 (bcm43xx driver) ,ndiswrapper-bcmwl5a (bcm43xx)a and ndiswrapper-lsbcmnds6.
68 • GoblinX (by Caraibes on 2008-01-15 11:59:00 GMT from Dominican Republic)
This week, this is my new "pet project"... I am a bit influenced by Béranger's fondness on Wolvix, which is also a Slackware derivative.
But what I like about GoblinX is that it comes in various languages (notably French & Spanish, for me...), and it is also a Latin American distro (a little pride for us !)
Beautiful Fluxbox !
But I still have to push it to its limit ! It is a chance, as the 2.6 is only at RC1 stage, so one can communicate its impressions to Flavio, and maybe help to improve the final version...
I would say it is a good idea to try it, especially for users who use Portuguese/Spanish/French/German... And English, of course !
69 • KDE4 (by voislav on 2008-01-15 14:54:18 GMT from Canada)
I don't understand why are people at KDE4 for releasing a buggy release. For such a large project and we are talking the complete rewrite of the code here there are bound to be problems. In fact most of them won't come up until people start writting applications to run on KDE4 and it's not like KDE team can go ahead and do that.
So developers get 6-12 months to work on their applications and KDE team gets the same time to sort ot the bugs. We've been using KDE3 for how many years now? From all the fuss you would think that people's lives depended on KDE4.
70 • Gentoo ala Sabayon (by davemc on 2008-01-15 15:02:42 GMT from United States)
Gentoo has been dying a slow and excruciatingly painful death for a long time now. Mr. Robbins probably has plans to completely reform the project, and that usually means alot of pain before the pleasure, which is probably what were seeing here. Good luck with that, and I wish him best success in cleaning up a very dirty house!
Sabayon has not been in the limelight for a long time now. Their developmental emphasis has always been to use a Gentoo framework, but I think thats changing to put more emphasis on a source AND binary solution. I eagerly look forward to lxnay's next move. He never seems to sleep!
71 • RE: 68 GoblinX (by IMQ on 2008-01-15 15:27:32 GMT from United States)
I tested GoblinX 2.6 RC1 in VMware and I have to say: very nice!
It appeared that attention was paid to all 5 desktops (XFCE, Fluxbox, KDE, WM, Enlightenment). Each has it own wallpaper and each has menu with all major apps listed. I didn't do the comparison to see if each of these menu contains exactly the same apps.
Even running in a VMware environment, it felt speedy. There is a kool menu for package management: add, build, etc, either as normal packages or as modules. Although I didn't test any to see if the works simply because I just want to see if it boots before burning the ISO to a CD.
I believe GoblinX can also be remastered if one so desires. I have to look into it when time permitting.
72 • Gentoo @ RE: 49 (by Landor on 2008-01-15 16:03:54 GMT from Canada)
I have to agree completely on the status quo aspect of Gentoo.
Although I do not update unless there's a package that I feel it's essential I update it, I do check semi-regularly to see what has hit the tree or not.
That said, it seems quite regularly, which means very often, there is always a new update for portage, which I do install each time. How can a distro be in such a frantic state of demise yet one of the key features in that distro is worked on voraciously?
As I've said before. Management doesn't really equate the technical side of things. If the ball is truly being dropped by the powers that be at Gentoo, I have no doubt someone will pick up the fumble and run with it as well.
Until then, Gentoo still works flawlessly on all our systems here, and although I've been working on other things, it's still the mainstay flavour for us.
Happy New Year Everyone!
Keep You Stick On The Ice...
73 • KDE4 (by Sam on 2008-01-15 16:48:46 GMT from United States)
Anyone else here think KDE 4's GUI design is a case of "design by committee"? I for one hope not only does the KDE team get the bugs worked out of the system but that much needed themes are forthcoming.
74 • @67 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-01-15 17:12:44 GMT from Canada)
Then that is against the license of those drivers, as I wrote.
75 • RE: 45 Sidux - Gnome (by Napoli Bona on 2008-01-15 17:14:39 GMT from United States)
Use apt-get install gnome-desktop-environment. The net result will be a stable Gnome 2.20 desktop. Sidux with Gnome is my favorite play distro, still trying to get the fonts to my liking.
76 • 50, 58 (by Nanlee on 2008-01-15 17:53:17 GMT from Canada)
Being 'user-centric' doesn't mean it can not be more user friendly, because user friendly is not the same as automatic installation. For example, you can give user all the choices available in shell program , say like NC, to list the commands or choices, so that the user can access all the choices more easily than having to remember each command. A simple tool like this can go a long way to get more new users to its community. Of course, that will make some, just some, of those more experienced Linux users unhappy, because all of a sudden, they can't be proud of their expertise anymore, as new users can to the same without spent a lot of time read the manual. BUT, it is good for Linux and that is more important.
By the way, #58, from what #50 said, Arch is not like a good doctor who gives you what you need. It is more like a self-help drug store, you pick whatever you want, needed or not. What do you think?
77 • #75 Sidux Sid+Gnome (by dooooo on 2008-01-15 17:59:00 GMT from Jordan)
If Sidux is using the sid repos for gnome , then the version is 2.20.3 with some components held back to 2.20.2 .
78 • Re: Ultima Linux (#18) (by Martin Ultima on 2008-01-15 19:56:41 GMT from United States)
"Is there an award for the 'ultimate' vanity distribution?"
There better be. I can't think of anyone else who'd deserve it.
But please, the bad pseudonym puns *have* to stop. Even *I'm* not that conceited. ;-)
79 • Linux friendly wireless cards? (by Anonymous on 2008-01-15 21:14:19 GMT from United States)
What are some good wireless cards for linux? PCI, USB, or otherwise. I noticed linuxemporium.co.uk has cards from Edimax and Comtrend...any feedback on these? Thanks!
80 • Rootly? (by Eyes-Only on 2008-01-15 21:30:01 GMT from United States)
Hi Ladislav! Yet another great DWW this week and thanks for all of your hard work and efforts which go into each and every single one to keep we, the Linux Community, well-informed upon what is going on in the world we so love out there with our favourite distros! :)
My concern this week involves the front page, left-hand column: I noticed that on Saturday (I believe it was) you ceased carrying "Rootly"? Will you be carrying them again in the future Sir? I rather enjoyed opening the browser first thing at the start of my day to check at see if there were any new distros, then proceed to "Rootly" news, after which I went to the distro reviews further down the list.
I'd be saddened to see them go as it would mean an extra trip for me to their page directly.
Thank you for your time Ladislav and all. Keep up the great work people. I've enjoyed the comments this week for once. :)
81 • RE 76: How hard have you tried? (by KimTjik on 2008-01-15 22:20:18 GMT from Sweden)
Some have spent a great amount of time making guides helping the beginner. Home page, first message, advice you to glance through the Wiki; the Wiki has this as the first line:
"If you are new to Arch, you may be interested in the Beginners Guide" - linked to the guide in question. That guide give you step by step instructions, what choices of packages you have, how to configure them, what daemons are needed for what, and so on. Good documentation is the foundation, and reading is still a necessary skill.
I doubt you have spent a lot of time trying to learn Arch, because you then would have noticed how well pieces of information are distributed. As an example: updating through pacman gives you crucial advice about what to check, how and where to configure an installed or updated program, and if some necessary steps are needed to keep the operating system well functioning. I've used many distributions, but I can't recall any with the same quality support (check the active forum as well, very impressive).
To write "they can't be proud of their expertise anymore" isn't constructive, besides being far from the truth. I'm in no way an expert, and lack a lot of knowledge, still Arch makes more sense to me. Humans aren't molded as exact copies of one another, hence certain features are experienced differently. This has nothing to do with some kind of self proclaimed expertise status.
Of course Arch could do better, just as any other distribution. Documentation is improved and updated; a lot of discussion is going on about what tasks or options should get priority. Arch has a small staff who's capacity is stretched to its limit. I doubt they can do much more than they already do, and I'm appreciating their work immensely.
Is it good for Linux that no specialized niched distributions exist? Should we all watch the same movies, drive the same cars, eat the same food? From what I can see there's plenty of bigger players on the Linux ground doing exactly that: trying to attract the ones who prefer to not read documents and who don't feel the need to control the system beyond doing some usual stuff. Why complain?
"It is more like a self-help drug store, you pick whatever you want, needed or not." Eh? Either you had something else in mind, or you haven't worked with Arch. You're not forced to, so that's alright, but the focus of Arch is actually to allow you to NOT get what you don't need.
I don't want to pick a fight over this. Everyone makes his/hers own choices.
82 • RE: 60, 62 DBAN (by West on 2008-01-15 23:27:00 GMT from United States)
the advice to only connect the drives to be wiped is important. physically disconnect usable drive even it was disabled
if you have a bootable 386 PC with FDD you can connect 4 IDEs
and let it run.
after the wipe, the FAT is totally gone, you might need to re-initialized before you can use them again, it happened to most of my old EIDE drives range from 3G to 20G, take a while for system to recognize them.
83 • RE: 80 Rootly? (by ladislav on 2008-01-16 00:06:57 GMT from Taiwan)
The Rootly feed was a sponsored feature, which expired a few days ago. I haven't heard back from the site maintainers so it looks like they are no longer interested in running it on DistroWatch. Of course, you can always subscribe to their RSS feed directly:
84 • Arch linux (by anticapitalista on 2008-01-16 00:12:04 GMT from Greece)
I finally got round to trying out Arch linux in VirtualBox and on the whole I am impressed. The docs from the wiki are excellent to get you going (I used the 150MB basic iso). I only installed fluxbox and a few apps, but it was a very pleasant experience.
Except udev uevent takes ages on boot. Aarrgghh! I didn't expect this and it seems to be a bug. It spoiled it a bit. Anyhow, once it finally does boot (after 90 secs), all works snappy and fast.
A nice way to create your own lean distro.
Good on Arch.
Now the pimping!!
antiX-base is an attempt to do something similar, but easier and quicker. Ok you have less choice, but you do get a very fast install, xorg already there, Mepis tools, fluxbox and a few useful apps in a 178MB installable livecd (repos = Debian testing).
Why not give it a try?
85 • Arch (by CraigL on 2008-01-16 01:43:41 GMT from United States)
I have been slowly drawn to Arch over the past month. I got and printed a lot of the documentation from the site which I think is great. I'm prepping myself beforehand to have my tools, which consists of my brain and some reading material. I am ready to take the plunge. Some other command line geeky distros suffer from the same problem...no documentation. They say learn Slackware and learn linux. I tried Slack one time but digging for the info was more trouble than it was worth. I like the philosophy of these distros but Arch has the trump card with documentation. Yeah Arch is 19th on Distrowatch but that doesn't tell any story. The joy is under the hood. The joy is learning it. The joy is customization, configuration, and making it lean and mean. I'm not saying I'll be successful, but I can read and I'll have fun; win or lose.
86 • RE: 85. Arch (by Kensai on 2008-01-16 03:02:03 GMT from Puerto Rico)
Well, welcome to Arch Linux, if you need any help getting through something that isn't well documented you are welcome to the forums and #archlinux on IRC. Arch Linux is really a great distro, and yeah #19 on distrowatch tells nothing, you see how bots are bringing some distros to the top that have not half the users the hit count on distrowatch reflects.
87 • Refresh Your Browser - Arch Linux (by Curious on 2008-01-16 03:12:07 GMT from Australia)
Arch Linux is now at Position 18!
Might have to check out what all the noise is about!
88 • ultima linux and desktop bsd (by Amy on 2008-01-16 05:28:09 GMT from United States)
over the weekend I tried both of these and desktop bsd could not do any of the things I wanted it to do and I actually found it hard to use.
I also tried Ultima linux and wow i love this thing and am using it right now. Its real easy to use and set up. It does every thing I want and more.
Its even fast on this computer. I had fedora on this same computer before I tried both of these and ultima is way faster.
I like how I can get packages from ultima, slackware or wolvix linux.
89 • re: 86 ARCH! (by CraigL on 2008-01-16 07:26:50 GMT from United States)
Thanks, Kensai. Gonna formally join the forum this week. I've noticed more people are "discovering" Arch. I like the script approach, rolling release, documentation, bare to full-blown apps approach and full control.
My legs are sore from the constant distro-hop...."Do the distro hop; hop hop hop" (sung to the tune of "Bunny Hop"). I want a home, I want to settle down, and concentrate on ONE distro. I feel like I've met Arch on eHarmony.com (joke). See ya on the forums.
90 • DesktopBSD , VMplayer and PCBSD (re 45 & 88) (by dbrion on 2008-01-16 09:13:20 GMT from France)
@38, 40: I've not tried PCBSD. I've read that DesktopBSD is better for newbies (again, I don't know much about BSD) but perhaps I should try PCBSD. Qemu seems to work with any distro I've tried, but is slow. One of the things I'm upset with in Debian is that I can't get KVM working. I see that PCBSD offers a downloadable VMWare image, so obviously it should be easy to try it out that way.
I tried to vmplay DesktopBSD (VirtualBox is too young : short release cycles, with bug corrections, using easyvmx to have some config files almost done makes the work almost as sexy as with VBox).
There were little issues, the main one being that
* the language selection is in an unbelievable mess, and cannot be described. It seems, though I am not an expert, that usEngllish works....
* The external disk recognition worked half for me... : I made/assembled an USB disk, consisting of : a Fat32 partition, an ext3 one, another Fat32. DesktopBSD (+VMplayer+XP)recognises the 1rst FAT partition OK, but not the others (perhaps it is linked with VMplayer and XP..): the second FAT is recognised, but cannot be monted -I know it is OK-.
I could have the most recent R version compiled without any glitch : the necessay packages and headers are present, which makes a big contrast w/r to PCLOL, but happens with any decent Linux I dared to test...
DesktopBSD is, IMO somewhat inferior to FreeBSD (which I tested ...11 months ago, and another version 3 months ago) but is not in a dramatic state....
91 • -AntiX on a USB pendrive ? (by Caraibes on 2008-01-16 12:41:31 GMT from Dominican Republic)
Hi Anticapitalista, since I have just successfully installed Wolvix on a USB pendrive, I was wondering if the same goal could be achieved with AntiX ?
The problem i am running into with Wolvix (so far...) is that it behaves like a live-cd when installed on a USB... Won't save the changes... I will toy around with it to see if there's a way to make that work...
Anyway, give me your views about AntiX on USB, that shall be interesting.
92 • PC-BSD (by The Post #36 Guy on 2008-01-16 12:44:46 GMT from United States)
I'd like to thank those who recommended PC-BSD, it really is an excellent OS. It's better than the BSD's I tried.
If it were not built around KDE, I'd give it more serious consideration. Unfortunately, while you can install Gnome, you lose some of the advantages of PC-BSD when you do. I just can't get into KDE. I've used it for months at a time but just dislike it too much and always go back to Gnome.
93 • PCBSD (by Eddie Wilson on 2008-01-16 12:59:47 GMT from United States)
I've used and still use to some extent PCBSD. It is a quality os. Its easy to install, setup, use and has a great community. Anybody who is interested in trying out a bsd system should try PCBSD. You may be surprised.
94 • #91 AntiX on a USB pendrive ? (by anticapitalista on 2008-01-16 14:19:05 GMT from Greece)
Caraibes, at the moment antiX is live wolvix on usb, it works as a 'livecd' so changes are not saved.
That is one change I'd like to work on for future releases.
95 • Re:94, AntiX on a USB pendrive (by Caraibes on 2008-01-16 15:37:15 GMT from Dominican Republic)
I am experimenting...
Having a lot of fun with GoblinX because it is a multilingual system (french, spanish, portuguese, german & english).
Enjoying Wolvix as it is very well done...
But still having a soft spot for AntiX (for various reasons...)
I am in my quest for the "perfect" USB pendrive distro ;)
96 • Linux wifi best bets (by Anonymous on 2008-01-16 17:27:18 GMT from United States)
Intel and RaLink are the only companies (that I am aware of) that provide free drivers for their wireless chipsets, do your research before purchasing hardware (this holds true for any OS).
97 • Notes on Arch Linux (by PP on 2008-01-16 17:37:55 GMT from United Kingdom)
I used to run Arch for perhaps a year, but over that time the minus points came up as well. They are:
1. Upgrading is not always that safe business - It mostly worked, but sometimes the system was broken after upgrade. So I learned always to check forums before doing the full upgrade.
2. network configuration - OK, this is partly my own lazyness, but I change place often with my laptop, and connect to many wired DHCP, or protected and unprotected wireless networks, and having a GUI for network config would be nice, instead of always getting tangled up with wpa_supplicant files..
3. Still lack of apps - Sometimes the odd app you need isn't in the repos, or it malfunctions due to individual maintainer.
So now my laptop runs OpenSUSE. It pretty much addresses all the issues above, but is of course slower. But that was the trade-off I was willing to make for the time being.
Arch is a great distro, I really recommend trying it, but it also may require a bit more attention, but your mileage may vary as they say.
98 • re: #83 (by Eyes-Only on 2008-01-16 20:15:22 GMT from United States)
Thank you VERY much for your prompt attention on this Ladislav and for the help as well! Shows just how much you really do care for we Linux (and others of course!) users and visitors to your page.
Keep up the great work you have going here and may 2008 be a banner year for you in health, happiness and prosperity!
99 • 97 (by Anonymous on 2008-01-16 20:25:03 GMT from United States)
"1. Upgrading is not always that safe business"
That's my main concern and why I haven't fully moved to Arch yet. I've read elsewhere that this can be a problem. The suggestion I've seen is to get your system to do what you want, then upgrade only the few apps where upgrading matters. I don't know if that is right for me.
"3. Still lack of apps"
But pretty good. They have had everything I've wanted. And the advantage over a distro like Debian is that if there is any problem getting a package updated or fixed, you can easily recompile it yourself. I am so tired of certain packages in Debian being old or broken with no way to interact with the maintainer. Compiling for yourself pretty much amounts to the configure/make/make install and finding all options and resolving dependencies yourself. Mandriva is far better in that regard.
100 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-01-16 20:32:43 GMT from France)
I'm glad that Arch is receiving more attention, that way their dev community may grow. Arch candidate for the next monthly funding?
101 • Minime and BCM43xx (by Gene Venable on 2008-01-16 21:11:30 GMT from United States)
Adam Williamson above responded to my complaint about Minime by saying the following
"There is, in fact, no reliable way to legally include a driver for a Broadcom wireless chip that will work without external downloads."
Mr Williamson should explain that to the Minimi folks, who at a PCLOS site said that they were collecting donations to work on a way to make Minime treat BCM43xx wireless like "Plug-n-Play".
If it's ilegal to do that, Mr. Williamson should notify them that they are in legal jeopardy, as well as all the other distros (such as Puppy and Wolvix, as I mentioned above) that work well with BCM43xx wireless.
102 • No subject (by @101 on 2008-01-16 22:21:58 GMT from France)
"If it's ilegal to do that, Mr. Williamson should notify them that they are in legal jeopardy, as well as all the other distros (such as Puppy and Wolvix, as I mentioned above) that work well with BCM43xx wireless."
Ridiculous. Right or wrong, Adam is no Broadcom/Puppy/Wolvix/PCLOS/... legal adviser.
103 • Re 101 - Fedora says "Windows drivers, which 1) are not redistributable"... (by ForbiddenItems#NDISwrapper on 2008-01-17 01:03:36 GMT from Australia)
...and 2) are not open source, and therefore will not be shipped in Fedora.
NDISwrapper network driver
NDISwrapper works by bridging Windows drivers into kernel space; many kernel developers consider this to violate the GPL license of the kernel. Furthermore, NDISwrapper does not work with standard kernel features, such as 4K stacks, and exposes the user to binary-only drivers in kernel space that the user cannot modify or fix. Furthermore, NDISwrapper does not work at all without the Windows drivers, which 1) are not redistributable, and therefore cannot be shipped in Fedora, and 2) are not open source, and therefore will not be shipped in Fedora.
Fedora Suggests: Try using the in-kernel drivers that support many common wireless cards, such as Intel or Broadcom wireless adapters.
104 • re: 79 - wireless cards (by ray carter at 2008-01-17 01:13:10 GMT from United States)
Cards based on the Atheros chipset are well supported with mad-wifi. I have a Dlink WNA2330 which works very well. Problems: sometimes manufacturers change chipset in the middle of a model run - and it's very difficult to know until you plug it in what the chipset is.
105 • @101 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-01-17 03:31:17 GMT from Canada)
Well, if they're collecting donations, that implies they need the money for some reason. I can only think they would try to buy a license to redistribute the Broadcom driver, which would of course be legal if they were able to do it.
106 • Mepis 7.0 ndiswrapper (by Anonymous on 2008-01-17 07:24:43 GMT from United States)
Doesn't Mepis 7.0 include Ndiswrapper drivers for wireless including Broadcom drivers?
107 • @ 35 (by chon on 2008-01-17 08:38:21 GMT from Thailand)
I don't know where you have read that pclos gurus say that there is no problem.
I am a longtime pclos user, and as far as I know , the devs have aclnowledged that there are still minor problems with minime.
However, they reckoned that Minime was good enough to hit the road..
But yeah, if you don't read the forums, you can't know.
I have Minime on 4 of my computers, and only one is playing up .
But then, XP is also kinky there.
108 • Qu 100 Arch (by dbrion on 2008-01-17 09:11:32 GMT from France)
"I'm glad that Arch is receiving more attention, that way their dev community may grow. Arch candidate for the next monthly funding"
Does he deserve it?
Does he need it?
Can they do something out of the (eventual) funds?
What is more, the argument in favor of Arch was that it shipped barand news applications. perhaps some applications deserve/need funds?
There are other questions with Arch.
Kim Tijk wrote the upgrade (which may be a downgrade I My conservative O) can be limited to some applications the user decides, but is there a possibility to have 2 (or more) different versions of a given application?
(for example, with:
cc=/usr/bin/gcc4.0 configure --prefix=/home/GCC4.0/tests && make && make install
I can test my favorite application with a given gcc version (other options are possible, of course) under Mandrivas, RedHats, PCBSD. But this remain an artisanal way, as it has been since 25 yrs AFAIK....)
109 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-01-17 09:22:34 GMT from France)
"I'm glad that Arch is receiving more attention, that way their dev community may grow. Arch candidate for the next monthly funding"
Does he deserve it?
Does he need it?
Can they do something out of the (eventual) funds?
Yes. It was implied by my statement that started by "I'm glad". Sorry that wasn't clear enough for you.
What is more, the argument in favor of Arch was that it shipped barand news applications.
Arch has more than one argument in its favor.
perhaps some applications deserve/need funds?
Who would think otherwise, I wonder.
110 • Re: (by More AboutArch on 2008-01-17 14:42:30 GMT from United States)
I was two years user of the Linux distribution Arch. It has (same as other distros) many plus and many minuses.
I were never feel "safe". I am few months on FreeBSD now and difference is huge :).
111 • mandriva and Microsoft (by jack on 2008-01-17 17:41:42 GMT from Canada)
It seems that Mandriva may be in the process of getting into bed with Microsoft (or has already).
Pamela Jones: It's Goodbye to Mandriva (http://lxer.com/)
Mandriva promised not to sign a patent deal, but according to PJ of Groklaw, the Mandriva-Turbolinux collaboration is bad news indeed.
there are a lot of pro and con comments.
112 • 111 (by Anonymous on 2008-01-17 17:54:48 GMT from United States)
I have better things to do than to speculate about speculation about rumors of forecasts of things that might happen.
I think anyone bothered by this would be better off moving to BSD, because there will always be connections of this sort in Linux. A Linux kernel developer was once in an airport at the same time as a Microsoft employee, etc.
113 • Promote free softwares in Hungary (by KAMI on 2008-01-17 18:00:23 GMT from Hungary)
Do you want to promote free softwares in Hungary?>
There is a MS sponsored competition at www.legalizalj.hu
I uploaded one video that promote Linux – please vote to it. (I prepared another video that is much better.)
1) Go to http://www.legalizalj.hu/ then press "VIDEÓ GALÉRIA" button
2) Select the video with Compiz Cube effect (currently this is the third video) and please Choose "SZAVAZOK RÁ" button
(You can verify your selection: under the video you should see: Beküldő: TengerACE if you are unsure you can see the clip here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfwKL4kYoY8
Please vote to it every day until 6 of February.
PS: Here is my unpublished video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i2DnHu7EDk
114 • @111 (by Adam Williamson on 2008-01-17 20:26:01 GMT from Canada)
Pamela is massively off-base.
The Manbo collaboration is simply an engineering collaboration to consolidate work on the *packaging* of basic system packages. It covers things like the kernel, glibc, and so forth. It does not remotely involve anything high-level enough to involve Microsoft stuff in any way.
The terms of the agreement explicitly state that it is concerned only with F/OSS packages and any and all code that results from it will be published under F/OSS licenses.
We are writing to Pamela to clarify this. It would be nice if she would not leap tall buildings to arrive at fantastical conclusions on the basis of no evidence in future.
115 • Gentoo does have KDE4 (by Anonymous on 2008-01-18 01:48:38 GMT from Australia)
"The developers of Gentoo Linux have hinted that KDE 4 might only enter the Portage tree with the release of KDE 4.1 - that is, at least six months from now."
Dunno where you got that idea, it's in portage it's just hardmasked.
116 • RE: 115 Gentoo does have KDE4 (by ladislav on 2008-01-18 02:04:20 GMT from Taiwan)
You are right, it was added today (18 January):
I wrote the article on Monday (14 January), when I searched the Gentoo for any "hints" on when KDE4 might show up in Portage, but the only thing I found was some talk about how the introduction of KDE4 is likely to be postponed until KDE 4.1 is out.
The devs must have changed their minds about it. It happens all the time.
117 • Another cheap linux box from a national retailer...hmmm.... (by Guy on 2008-01-18 02:37:37 GMT from United States)
118 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-01-18 03:05:57 GMT from United States)
"It would be nice if she would not leap tall buildings to arrive at fantastical conclusions on the basis of no evidence in future."
Adam, Adam, Adam.
How else is she going to get hits on her webpage? The SCO case is dead. She has to vilify someone.
119 • @118 (by chon on 2008-01-18 03:57:34 GMT from Thailand)
This is about the cheapest shot on this page.
How low can you fall ?
120 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-01-18 05:25:22 GMT from Australia)
@116 if you saw in the gentoo channel devs were making sure all the packages were ready to be added, ie tweaking useflags etc so there'd be minimal problems for the end user.
I believe the topic was something like: "packages will be added to portage but after the kde.org release" this was pre to january 11th.
121 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2008-01-18 05:28:16 GMT from Australia)
the idea gentoo was not going to have KDE 4.1 was a post on the forums by one developer, not a official statement though and at that time everyone was unsure on how stable KDE 4.0.0 would actually be (RC2 and RC1 has some atrocious bugs)
Failing that they _would_ have always been available in the overlay as KDE alpha/beta/RC and live SVN packages have been.
122 • RE 121 - for us interested where to look for official statements? (by KimTjik on 2008-01-18 09:23:30 GMT from Sweden)
My question is the heading. This is absolutely not a critical comment from my part, on the contrary.
About the discussion above concerning Arch (could just as well be another distribution): as many comments show there could be different demands according to use and the environment. You see the same on the Arch forum, a free discussion about other alternatives than Arch depending on the installations purpose. This is a good thing and the strength of Linux: not can we only choose what we personally like more, but also select the "perfect" distribution for a particular purpose (just like far from most need what dbrion is looking for, a solid solution for testing software on different gcc versions).
123 • RE 122 There are other keys for testing than gcc (by dbrion on 2008-01-18 09:45:29 GMT from France)
and I heve put it as an (rather weird and ridiculous, but simple) example of the configure options (one can link to an official or upgraded library, forbid some functionalities, etc : this is not offered as a standard, as it would make tons of versions for a given (at the origin) package....)
124 • Here's another.....:) (by Guy on 2008-01-19 02:23:58 GMT from United States)
125 • Cheap Linux Boxes. (by Glenn on 2008-01-19 03:22:57 GMT from Canada)
One one hand I like the idea, on the other hand I'm a bit concerned. The expectations the average home user will have of these systems maybe more than those systems can deliver. Be interesting to know the quality of the hardware components and if they are upgradeable or not. Old proverb (You pay cheap, you get cheap)! If these systems turn out to be not so good or not upgradable then Linux may get a bad rap because it will be associated with substandard systems, I am not sure of my argument here because I do not have any of these systems to inspect and I am not about to buy one either.
Being Linux knowledgable I personally would have no problem BUT for those that are not linux knowledgable there may be some difficulties. Most stores do not yet have Linux expertise, at least where i live, and when these people who purchased these systems look for help (which may be hardware related and not OS related even), it will be harder for them to get assistance in diagnosing and resolution either from Computer stores or from friends who most probably know windows only. . Being around for a while i recognize that most of the averge PC users do not really want to know anything more than powering on their system and starting their application and thats it. If they have a problem who do they go to? For windows systems almost any place; for Linux systems where do they go? Stores? Friends? When over 90% of the PCs run windows ..... well you can see my point i hope..
This is what I see locally. It may be different elsewhere say in Europe or Asia.
Am I wrong to be concerned?
I hope so
126 • RE: Cheap Linux Boxes (by IMQ on 2008-01-19 05:54:26 GMT from United States)
I know we Linux users are excited to see Linux in a box being sold in major retail stores such as Wal-Mart, but I have to really think hard to the question: Who are the real buyers of these low cost Linux boxes?
Personally, I think these boxes are more likely are bought by customers who are knowledgeable enough about computer hardware to decide they are good enough for general purpose. These consumers also likely know enough about other OSes beyond the usual Windows sold with most computer in store.
The other thought is that maybe those consumers believe the hardware is good enough to put XP on for general purpose computing. But these consumers may find out that drivers may not be available for Windows at all.
I believe we will see more and more Linux PCs in 2008 and beyond. I also see more hardware and software vendors support Linux. Slow but it is coming for sure.
Of course, we have Microsoft to thank for releasing its most *fantastic* product ever, the famous Windows Vista with the *WoW* factor, and the *modest* hardware requirements just to run such beautiful looking Windows since Windows 3.1. OK, so beauty is only skin deep in the case of Vista, still....
OK, back on topic. Yeah the support will be a major concern for customers who are only familiar with Windows.
Wait! Aren't the companies producing these boxes also provide support in someways?
127 • Cheap Linux Boxes (by Tony on 2008-01-19 05:56:33 GMT from United States)
I agree that for the majority of users the Cheap Linux Boxes will not suffice. Then again, I know a lot of users that all they use their computer for is "surfing on the net" and an occasional letter or two. For those, I would recommend a low-end Linux box as opposed to a Windows system.
The low-priced machines will in my opinion cause computer prices to drop because of competition.
128 • Re 125 Cheap linux boxes (by dbrion on 2008-01-19 10:02:29 GMT from France)
" If they have a problem who do they go to?For windows systems almost any place; for Linux systems where do they go? Stores? Friends? When over 90% of the PCs run windows ..... well you can see my point i hope..
In a small town in the North of France, most young PC vendors/ fixers are formed in ... Linux, though a huge majority of PPCs are under Windows... Thus, most software isssues can be fixed (and I think, unless Vista is too expensive -even in this case, it may be a means of showing one is (perhaps) rich- that most Linux buyers will buy it knowing they must know a little more than the position of 4 switches -1 for the power, 3 for the rat-).
There remain the HW reliability.
Except for the OLPC -which does not exist in Europe, though it seems as reliable as 10 times more expensive specialised laptops (for agronoms, etc, who have to work under any climatic circumstances, and coffee drinkers)- and *perhaps* the classmate, I fear that it is very bad or average quality. Linking in the minds Linux with cheap, unreliable HW may be a handicap on the long term (and, as MacOS is linked in some minds with xxxBSDs, this gives an advantage to BSDs in snobs minds..)
I fear, like you, that low pricing will just lower the quality of the HW (there is an analogy with IT suppliers and TV channels: competition lead to bad support in the fist case, absurd choices : one western on day xx with any channel, programs chosen in order to half satisfy the same audience.
129 • RE: 128 about the HW reliability (by IMQ on 2008-01-19 17:17:29 GMT from United States)
I think the hardware in these low-cost Linux boxes are as reliable as the more expensive one. In other words, they are all relative.
How often do you experience HW failure in recent years?
Looking back 7 years, the HW failures I had expereienced were fans (power supply and case fans), hard disks, RAM. That were about all I can recall. And the one most likely to fail is the hard drive.
The way PCs and laptops, or for that matter, all consumer electronics, are rapidly introduced, I doubt very much that these products would go through the kind of quality control once older generations of hardware used to have. I think partially due to better design and better manufacturing process, electronic products appear to have an acceptable rate.
But that just my humble opinion...
130 • Audio streams (by illiterate on 2008-01-19 18:39:14 GMT from Greece)
KEMP is a radio station in Seattle that streams music at 1400kbits/s, uncompressed, but only with windows media. You can acess it with Linux with real player but only at around 250-300kbits/s.
Unfortunately as my nickname implies, I know extremely little about computers and of os only Linux.
So I thought of "wine" or some kind of " wrapper" ! Sorry I cannot copy-paste the link, theURL is: WindowsMedia: Play
MP3: 32k 128k
In Help you can get the explenation why they use windowsmedia.
Thanks for your help, this is the only station that I know of streaming uncompressed music.
131 • Audio streams (by illiterate on 2008-01-19 19:53:10 GMT from Greece)
130. I suppose I did not clarify that I want to be informed by any of you knowledgable people if it is possible to access windowsmedia with Linux.
Sorry for that!
132 • Re:130/131, Windows Media (by Caraibes on 2008-01-19 21:39:43 GMT from Dominican Republic)
Usually Mplayer or VLC will play anything out of the box... Well, mostly anything, because for Windows Media, you might need the infamous W32 codecs...
In Fedora, if you use the Livna.org repos, it is available. In Mandriva it is available with the PLF repos. In Debian, it is in the Debian-multimedia repos, in Ubuntu, I think it is quite easy nowadays to activate the non-free repos...
If you feel the need for an out-o-the-box experience, the buzz of the day is Wolvix (live-cd)... That is if you want a system in English... Otherwise, Mint could be a good choice.
GoblinX is multilingual, I am in the process of testing it further. I enjoy the personality of the distro...
133 • re 132 (by illiterate at 2008-01-19 23:07:07 GMT from Greece)
Thank you very much Caraibes for your reply.
You know I am a newbe but I have rearned to install w32codecs etc. Also I know that those are included only with 32 bit distros, not with 64bit ones as far as I can tell, unless they have a different name there. I have installed Mplayer and mplayerplugins as well as VLC. I am playing with a lot of distros as I am learning, Blag70000, 64Studio(64bit),Jacklab 1,0 (those 3 being my favourite ones having the best sound) . Machine is amd athlon3800x2 sound card "alsa preferred" M-audio audiophile 24/94 with which I get surprisingly good sound from bbc radio 3. Unfortunately they stream at only around 65bit/s, but considering such low rate, the sound I repeat is outstanding. I am using Fedora,Debian,Mandriva,Sidux and another probably 20 distros ! at the same time,learning.
They will connect with Mplayer but they will not play. Possibly I am doing something wrong after they connect.
If you google to KEXP you will find out yourself. I have not learned to copy-paste the link, the URL is:http://kexp.org/home.asp
Sorry for the long comment and thanks again,
134 • re kexp.org (by locks on 2008-01-20 12:36:52 GMT from United States)
This works perfectly for me with Totem-Xine on Ubuntu, Debian and Fedora. I'd remove mplayer and vlc they never worked well for me, have a go with Totem-Xine or Xine, Gxine and Kaffeine should work too, make sure you've got ffmpeg and all the xine-libs installed. Don't worry too much about win32 codecs I haven't got them on Fedora or Debian and I'm listening as I type,
Good Luck and have fun
135 • RE "129 • RE: 128 about the HW reliability (by IMQ on 2008-01-19 17:17:29") (by dbrion on 2008-01-20 15:21:44 GMT from France)
How often do you experience HW failure in recent years?
I agree with you that I *never* experienced *major* HW failure in recent years, but I *always* am bothered with connectivity (as I mainly use laptops for leisure, I feel obliged to add USB disks...).
As the connectors are an important part of the price, if I find cheaper ones, I can be even more annoyed if they have played with the reliability of connectors....
As far as being water/coffee proof, I am annoyed every 6 months with keyboards at work (where I have a desktop PC, it would be unacceptable with a laptop....)
" I think partially due to better design and better manufacturing process, electronic products appear to have an acceptable rate.
I agree with the adverb "partially" : if one wants a very reliable cheap PC, there is the OLPC (in North America... if it succeeds...); but the overall trend might be to have less and less quality exigences, which may bother more and more laptops owners ... if they drink coffee or are victim of a thunderstorm...
136 • Re #127 #128 #129Cheap Desktops (by Glenn on 2008-01-20 15:54:29 GMT from Canada)
Thanks a lot for your comments.
I have had H/W failures.
Cheap Memory. That caused me grief on 2 systems
Cheap Video Card (ATI)
HDD only one I had fail was IBM one.
Screen Burnt IBM one
Think center Power supply went and whole computer went up in a puff of smoke...
Computer case Cheap Antec... On Off button shorted out.
Cheap ASUS MB. The AGP fried on it but that is not normal for ASUS so I put that to bad luck.
CD/RW cheap ones Had to replace after 1 year, they cause problems which confused the BIOS and made one think it was a MB or HDD problem
Yeah, i do play with systems. :-) Also I have had to fix friends systems, same thing.
After saying all that IMQ, I think your point is good, Hardware today is much better than before and cheaper. Think that bothers me is if a competiition starts up for these cheap systems and they cut corners to increase profit. I think of winmodems which is not a true modem.
For all that though I do have a respect for the hardware manufacturers who have to factory build their components and you can get a complete set of HW for less than the cost of purchasing some software that is in widespread (non Enterprise) use, say Windows, Office, Antivirus, others A bit of an imbalance there I think.
Tony. Thanks. i agree with you
Dbrion, Thank you I value your insight.
IMQ, your opinions may be humble but they are always nicely thought out and good ones.
After all guys, I did say i was unsure and wanted other opinions and got good ones. Thanks
Following up I checked out Dell & Lenovo on their Linux support and both of course supply you with links to the Distro support site.
Over the next couple of weeks I'll go visit local Wal Marts, Sears, etc. and inquire into these cheap Linux systems. I'll be a computer illiterate guy whos looking for advice on a system and ask for support and guidance re their Linux Box offerings. Be interesting to see what the results will be. Understood that it will be applicable locally and not in other countries or regions but so what... If they sell here then they should have a (minimal at least) knowledge of their products I presume. :-)
This will probably be the last posting in here I guess while we all wait breathless for tomorrows Distro watch. :-)
I close as I started.
137 • easy to set up and fast linux (by werner , in Cayenne at 2008-01-20 20:25:53 GMT from France)
@88: more easy to set up and fast: http://www.distromania.com/distro_info.php?distro=1141 ; http://linux.softpedia.com/get/System/Operating-Systems/Linux-Distributions/SYS-34168.shtml :)
138 • KEXP (by Guy on 2008-01-20 21:45:49 GMT from United States)
KEXP opened with Miro by default when I clicked on the Windows Media stream!? But when I did I got a bunch of video almost instantly...wow...weird but cool :-)
139 • No subject (by werner on 2008-01-20 23:39:37 GMT from France)
(by any reason the last post appeared 2x, one can be deleted)
140 • RE 137 Is sys that fast and easy? (by dbrion on 2008-01-21 08:35:43 GMT from France)
* The claim that it installs in 12-18 min (on unspêcified HW) is not that fast w/r to installations of other linuxen under VMplayer on > 2yrs PCs (both factors slowing the installation)....
* The destruction of an already paid Windows wonot do much harm to Microsoft (if one wants to reinstall W$, and has lost ones CD, just rebuy it!) . Perhaps the installer, after deleting his Windows boot, will have a seat in Paradise: this is the only long term interest I could see ..if I believed in Paradise....
* The use of wine as a substitute to Windows to lanch windowsapps makes the hypothesis that *any* windows app is wine compatible ... and is inconsistent with wine's lists of compatibility...
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