| DistroWatch Weekly
1 • Linux (by Lobster on 2007-01-29 12:03:53 GMT from United Kingdom) |
Tried Metisse on Puppy about a year ago. I am sure the Mandriva version has moved on. Ladislav is right, Linux is getting gorgeous.
Packaging - Microsoft excel at it. Penguins wear your best Tux. "Is that an operating system on your laptop or are you just glad to see me . . . "
Penguins are becoming beautiful. Bring on the dancing girls (whatever they are) . . .
2 • First Comment of the Week! (by Antoine on 2007-01-29 12:04:37 GMT from Brazil)
Downloading Foresight... looks promissing!
3 • Foresight and solaris (by Rickard on 2007-01-29 12:21:33 GMT from Sweden)
I tried foresight a few versions back and I had al sorts of problems with grub, sound etc.
Will give this release another try to see if it lives up to my expectations about a linux desktop ;-)
as for solaris, I really hope they would try to more on the desktop market, it's a mature kernel that would be bad to go to waste only on servers, but they do need to make it open under a different license model.
thanks for a good read of dww.
4 • About Mandriva One 2007 - Metisse (by KaruppuSwamy.T on 2007-01-29 12:58:41 GMT from United States)
Metisse seems to be interesting with a lot of features. Hope once used with for a quite some time, it can accelerate the productivity at desktop. I am going to try soon.
5 • Mandriva and Metisse (by Steve on 2007-01-29 13:00:16 GMT from United Kingdom)
Mandriva and Metisse... played with this for an hour; very nice.
No problems, driver issues etc. - worked 1st time.
Pure eye candy; a real crowd pleaser -but what can you use it for?
All these 3D desktops have one real drawback - as far as I can see, apart from being very sexy - they actually do nothing. That is useful.
Yes, I'd choose the desktop with over with_out... unless the with_out had a useful app I needed.
Anyone found something 3D can do which helps you work (other then convince you this desktop is tooo sexy for your desk)?
6 • Yay! Tamil (by Navneeth on 2007-01-29 13:24:56 GMT from India)
It's great to know that this great site is being translated to many languages. Go Linux! :)
Although I'm yet to try Metisse, one thing I liked was that it does not expect a lot from your hardware.
7 • Mettise and Solaris (by el jefe on 2007-01-29 13:47:48 GMT from United States)
Thanks for the good read!
Metisse is amazing, and after 15 minutes of playing with the live CD, I am looking for a way to install it on my laptop. What better way to work on a touch-pad, already so full of hassles, than with a WM that actually moves windows out of your way for you? Brilliant. I just wish that it ran with KDE! This 500MHz/192MB laptop can handle this fine, so far. Anyone have installation instructions? Anyone know if Metisse is packaged to run on a superfast distro like Slackware?
If Solaris goes to GPLv3 before Linux (which may never get there), I can see Solaris getting a huge boost from coders who dislike the idea of their code being used against them (such as is happening with GPLv2). An interesting one to watch.
8 • Mandriva and Metisse (by Fractalguy on 2007-01-29 13:52:52 GMT from United States)
I like the grouping of the desktops in the 3x3 and also the cute small version on the bottom panel. The default wallpaper was rather loud for me, so I switched to one of the garden scenes. There are two browsers but I worked with Firefox.
After a few hours in liveCD mode I had settled in for the session of surfing, editing and exploring the distro. But when I launched OOo, I got my first ever bluescreen of death in Linux. Strange, no message but just the screen went to a slightly lighter shade of blue than that of Windows BSoD. The mouse was gone, the CD stopped reading in OOo and the system was silent, keyboard did nothing. There is plenty of RAM here, and I watch top in a consol, so that was not a problem. I waited some minutes and tried pressing Ctrl-Alt-backarrow. X killed and the login was presented. Well, I don't know the password for Mandriva livcecd so it was shut down time.
9 • Debian (Linux desktop) usability (by Innocent bystander on 2007-01-29 13:53:14 GMT from Finland)
"The things that make me want to return to Windows are gaming, flash and other multimedia, and a feeling of helplessness. I want to play Alpha Centauri and adventure games I can borrow from friends. Flash doesn't work, and installing software from Debian via Synaptic is difficult, I'm not comfortable with it."
LOL! People prefer Windows because it allows you to share your programs with your neighbours. :-D
(I'm not sure if that's legal, though.)
10 • JackLab (by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky on 2007-01-29 13:53:20 GMT from United States)
I don't want a Linux distro that *looks* pretty -- I want one that *sounds* good! Downloading JackLab Audio Distribution :)
11 • Manfriva Metisse (by Harry Fulkerson on 2007-01-29 14:24:57 GMT from United States)
I have played with, and used Metisse and was impressed enough to install it on a spare HD. There are many useful features that can be implemenmted to assist in
productivity. It is not just more, "eye candy".
12 • Debian usability (by Pepik on 2007-01-29 14:29:24 GMT from United Kingdom)
As the author's subject put it, "I could manage with Linux, with the assumption that I have someone like Lasu to do installation and tweaking."
Well that's the catch isn't it? You can 'manage' if you have an expert handy when Gaim won't connect, when WPA-PSK won't work and you have to settle for WEP, when Bittorrent clients just give you crytic error messages, when adding the wavelan Xfce applet to your taskbar just give you a blank spot, when fonts work in one app but not another, when it freezes on powerdown or hibernation... just a long list of things I live with on my Linux laptop even after two years as a hobbyist. How many ongoing problems do I have with Windows? None. I'll keep using Linux, but recommending it to friends or calling it a windows replacement for non-experts? Not a chance.
13 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 14:37:11 GMT from Sweden)
Downloading foresight now, I had problems with the former releases and are hopping for a more functional release this time.
I like Solaris, I would like to see more of it in the feature.
I find Nexenta being a very good project and hope that they make it into the Debian project in the future.
14 • Eye candy and other amusements (by Theodore Dreiser on 2007-01-29 14:41:10 GMT from United States)
While of little practical value, the 3D desktops are mildly entertaining.
But it is ten times more fun running Mac OS X Tiger on your PC.
Man, that's a real hoot. Sorry Steve, the devil made me do it.
15 • Solaris (by Alex on 2007-01-29 14:41:14 GMT from Canada)
Solaris on the desktop has a huge potential if virtualization is really transparent so smaller companies can safely dump mission critical apps from expensive Sun machines onto Intel/AMD class machines. It can be successful vis-a-vis Linux if good multimedia support is built in, instead of the "wink wink nudge nudge install install" waltz we're forced to dance with most Linux distros. And yes, I do understand and appreciate why they behave in this manner.
16 • Metisse on a p3 500 / 192MB RAM -- not so hot as LiveCD (by el jefe on 2007-01-29 14:47:43 GMT from United States)
Above I commented that the Mandriva One LiveCD with Metisse runs on my low-power laptop. I want to clarify; I played for 15 on a well-powered AMD desktop and it worked great; the laptop is the destination and it booted fine but performance on this older machine was sub-par once I spent time with it. An installation would hopefully improve the performance, but I don't yet know for sure. Anyone have tips for installing this LiveCD?
Sorry if I mislead anyone!
17 • Installation (tiny) tip on a laptop. (by dbrion on 2007-01-29 15:03:21 GMT from France)
At least you should have a normal (or USB) mouse plugged...
It seems silly, but if you use a (heath sensitive) touch pad, with a CD-ROm (the reader can be hot...), it may be long (you complained in 7 of your touch-pad). Once, it took me 3 unpleasant hours to install a Mandriva, instead of 15/20 mns, as usual, and I had to fix everything [ except for the essential : the MICROSOFT Windows XP partitions, I kept]. This was a productivity increase...
By the way, you should not install Mandrivas too soon : I have been very happy since May 2006 with a early release of Mandriva 2006... Between Dec 2005 and May 200-, I tried to download fixes as fixes were ready ...) Now, for something I want to install on a disk (I can VMplay or Qemulate new gadgets), I wait till there is a list of fixes or for a distr. who releases "when she is ready" : Debian grew very popular among young colleagues since they decide to follow this strategy, and it is detrimental to Mandriva technical (not marketing) value....
I hope this tip is not too silly or too evident...
18 • CNR easier than Synaptic? (by octathlon on 2007-01-29 15:09:50 GMT from United States)
I keep hearing about CNR. Can someone tell me why it is easier to use than Synaptic? In Synaptic I just check the box of what I want, it automatically installs it plus any dependencies, and adds it to my menu. With CNR, as far as I can tell, you find the software you want on a website instead of in your package manager window, so, what's the improvement? Is it just that you can get other stuff that might not be in your distro's repositories?
19 • solaris (by random guy at 2007-01-29 15:43:12 GMT from United States)
i ordered 5 free solaris dvd kits (were supposed to be here by now sigh) anyway the problem with solaris is bad hardware conpatibility which is probably one of linux's weakness too but linux is responding to it a lot better than solaris is.
i say long live linux baby!
20 • Debian usability (by glenn on 2007-01-29 15:51:37 GMT from Canada)
I installed Win XP and Linux on the wifes and my sons systems and showed them how to dual boot. I forgot about it for a while and one day when I was talking to a collegue I asked them which system they preferred, expecting the response to be WinXP.. Neither of them had used Winxp for months but used Linux instead... Reasons. 1. No BSOD, 2. Consistent operation and stability, they could leave it running for days or weeks on end. No slowdowns which I attribute to both fragmentation and a forever expanding registry.
For simple things they could download using Synaptic or Adept. More complicated things such as enabling Java plugin in Firefox I had to do for them. Biggest drawback i can see is the average home user cannot install Linux easily so needs skilled help. hmm, I've had to help people load Winxp also so I'm not sure of myself there.
I've actually enabled a few friends to switch to Linux. Of course I have had to help once and a while but no more than i have had to help them with Windows. In fact, my feeling is that i have had to spend less time on Linux issues than windows issues with family and friends. I deliberately tailor the KDE desktops to resemble windows of course including , My Documents, My Computer Icons etc. The Linux's I tailored were Ubuntu and Kubuntu (Debian based). Linux is not for the faint of heart but neither is WiinXP where if you install a product and it has a bad driver then you have fun pulling it out so you can boot without a BSOD. That does not happen with Linux (well i have yet to see it myself). That last part is another reason my friends/family like Linux. My Conclusion (controversial i know): Linux is about as ready for common use as Windows. (flames go here _____________) :-) I'll use them to roast coffee with.
21 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 15:52:37 GMT from United States)
With CNR, you get screenshots, user reviews, one-click access to commercial software purchases. It aims to provide a better one-stop browsing experience if you're looking for a particular function and don't know what specific application you want, as you can compare more detailed info from various programs all in one spot.
22 • Mandriva and Metisse!!! (by Astaroth on 2007-01-29 16:01:19 GMT from El Salvador)
Mandriva and Metisse!!!
Mandriva and Metisse!!!
Mandriva and Metisse!!!
I think mandriva is going in the right direction. At this time we, users, have a lot of graphical-hardware-power in our hands, if we can innovate the user interface to be more useful, more intutive, etc. then the future will be amazing. Do you remember the Minority Report movie, when Cruise uses a futuristic graphical interface to use the complex precrime predictor system???
This is a good idea of what we can make if we can left behind our legacy 2D interface mind!!!
Well done mandriva!
23 • 12 (by lmf on 2007-01-29 16:14:16 GMT from United States)
> How many ongoing problems do I have with Windows? None.
Umm...what? Maybe you haven't heard, but there are a lot of viruses, keystroke loggers, and various other security problems going around the last few weeks on Windows computers.
Perhaps you haven't used Windows long enough yet, but after a short while, your machine will be extremely slow. Doesn't matter what you do...just REALLY slow.
Maybe you don't consider having to defrag your hard drive, but I do.
Windows just works...biggest myth anyone has ever believed. Here's a recent headline from Digg:
Or perhaps you think it is easy for new computer users to dig into their registry and make the necessary changes?
24 • Re: CNR easier than Synaptic? (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 16:18:15 GMT from United States)
Synaptic is easy if you know what you want to install. Unfortunately if you want to install, say, mysql, you have different versions and related packages. With CNR there is one option. I see no other benefit and there is no reason such a modification could not be made to synaptic.
25 • Debian usability (by dizzy on 2007-01-29 16:34:08 GMT from United States)
When I hear complaints about Synaptic being too hard to use, I have to say it throws doubt on everything else they say. Synaptic was the *easiest* part of converting to Linux for me.
26 • RE:23 (by Synergy6 on 2007-01-29 16:44:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Perhaps you haven't used Windows long enough yet, but after a short while, your machine will be extremely slow. Doesn't matter what you do...just REALLY slow."
In a word: bull. I've used XP (dual-booted with Debian mostly) since before SP1. The closest I've come to a BSOD is the "BSOD" emulating screensaver MS released a few months back. (Shows a fake BSOD as the screensaver). The idea that every XP is a BSOD waiting to happen is as much FUD as the anti-Linux stuff which goes in the other direction. Sure, I could do certain things and make XP crash. But I could make Linux crash as well. It's something of a non-issue imo.
Viruses? Keyloggers? Security problems? Never had them. Decent 3rd-party firewall + not opening britneysucksbigsexy.exe keeps me safe.
Haven't used it long enough? I'm going on 3 years, how much longer should I wait? A few easy steps every now and then, and my XP is actually *faster* than when I installed. (Removed quite a few services.) (And faster than any Linux I've tried, FYI)
In short, anti-Linux FUD is bad, bad stuff. But the answer is *not* (newsflash) to just spread Windows FUD and hope everything equals out. Two wrongs rarely make a right.
27 • Mandriva rocks !!! (by Caraibes on 2007-01-29 16:50:43 GMT from Dominican Republic)
I must say that the Mandriva team is doing a great job : I tried OpenSUSE 10.2 for a whole week, before running back to my good ol'MDV free 2007, which is way faster, and easier to maintain.
I tried Metisse, but I found it too slow as a live-cd... I shall install it, sometimes, to see it better...
28 • Re: all post about Mandriva Metisse (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 16:56:22 GMT from Australia)
Re: using and/or installing
You know this was origionally not free and only Club members could get it
You may also know that Mandriva do not give away any thing useful at all
It seems than not many of you have bothered to visit the Metisse product pages
When here please Go to and Read the FAQ
Can metisse be used for production system?
Metisse is experimental software : not all its features are complete or bug free. Moreover, since metisse is used as a testground for Insitu projects, some features might change in future versions or dropped if better alternatives are found. We do not advise to use metisse in critical environments.
29 • 26 (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 16:58:02 GMT from United States)
Who said anything about BSOD?
XP has crashed for me, but I didn't say anything about stability, either.
Give a new computer user Windows XP and no additional knowledge, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. Every time.
> Decent 3rd-party firewall + not opening britneysucksbigsexy.exe keeps me safe.
Having to install a firewall and restricting your internet activities are neither easy for a new user or a practical solution. Yes, with the proper restrictions, I would never have any complaints about any Linux distros. Got a problem with Linux? Oh, well it's your fault. Everyone knows you shouldn't have done that with XP.
And also, a firewall will not completely protect you. You need to waste many hours with anti-virus software and anti-spyware, and you are guaranteed not to stop all spyware. Anti-spyware products are far from perfect.
I would hardly define the difficulties with XP as being FUD. Windows is not perfect, end of story. It is much easier to buy a computer with Linux preinstalled if you are a new user than to buy a computer with XP preinstalled. If you have set up your computer to do what you want, it just works with Linux. It does not just work with XP because you have all of these other issues to deal with.
30 • Now is the time for Linux! (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 17:11:59 GMT from United States)
In the US you can't buy a pc/laptop in a retail store because of the Vista launch on Tuesday. They do not want a run on XP before Vista launch. On the Vista ready PCs in stock the XP will not activate after today, it will be Vista or nothing.
31 • Podcasts (by fstephens at 2007-01-29 17:13:51 GMT from United States)
I like the podcast section, but one problems is they seem to be more and more in ogg format. Now, I approve of trying to use that instead of MP3, but it leaves those of us with players that don't do ogg hunting for the website to get the MP3 version. How about linking to the download page of the podcast instead so users can get the format they need (or want)?
A small explanation of the specialty of each podcast would be good too if there is room.
Thanks for listening, and keep up the excellent work! You site is one of my first visits everyday.
32 • Now is the time for Linux! (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 17:22:45 GMT from United States)
I should clarify a bit. You can buy a Vista PC but you can't take it home before Tuesday. You can give MS the money but you go home empty handed.
33 • Re 22 Add 3 more dimensions to your computer (by dbrion on 2007-01-29 17:56:21 GMT from France)
"This is a good idea of what we can make if we can left behind our legacy 2D interface mind!!!
Just visit 3 years old "http://vis5d.sourceforge.net/" ....the home page of vis5d+
That was great free marketing in the late 80s...
34 • not against windows and definitely not against linux (by karellen on 2007-01-29 18:04:45 GMT from Romania)
I use both Xp and Linux. I like change, I like choice and I'm not a fanatic activist of either one of them. Because none is perfect. End of story. An OS is good(stable, fast etc) by itself (the case of Linux) or by the applications designed for it (the case of windows). when I'll have on linux the programs I have and use on xp, then I'll say "bye, bye Windows". but until that moment I continue to use windows. because I need all those things. And I don't care why they're not in linux (even if I know - I happen to be an IT - graduate this summer) or when they'll be.
35 • RE:29 (by Synergy6 on 2007-01-29 18:13:58 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Reasons. 1. No BSOD," See Post #20.
"Give a new computer user Windows XP and no additional knowledge, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. Every time."Give a new gun user a rifle and no additional knowledge, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. Every time. Etc. XP is, imo, *less* likely to really **** with a newbie than Linux. You can give advantage to Linux over XP on many, many levels, but ease of use for a newbie really isn't one of them.
Erm, installing a firewall is easier than installing an OS... And if the OS is preinstalled, often a firewall will be preinstalled too. Not too difficult.
"restricting your internet activities" LMAO. I thought you might have noticed that "britneysucksbigsexy.exe" was supposed to be sarcastic. Apparently not. If I have to get Linux to safely get such files, I'll stick to XP, cheers.
"And also, a firewall will not completely protect you." Depending on what you do with your connection, a good one will. Sorry about that.
"You need to waste..." More FUD.
"Windows is not perfect, end of story." Neither is anything else, including Linux. Cheers, Sherlock.
"It is much easier to buy a computer with Linux preinstalled if you are a new user than to buy a computer with XP preinstalled." Can I get some of what you're smoking?
"f you have set up your computer to do what you want, it just works with Linux." If you know enough about Linux to fully set it up and optimize it, you can handle more than "just works". For those who can't, the set-up is likely to be a huge step.
"I would hardly define the difficulties with XP as being FUD." Trying to cloak your biased opinions as fact is, though.
36 • Debian usability (by Pepik on 2007-01-29 18:16:00 GMT from United Kingdom)
That's just not my experience. This is the same notebook, dual booting. Windows crashing? Not never, but extremely rare. Windows XP SP2 with security updates, IE7, a free firewall, expired virus protection, and free anti-spyware plus the all important common sense are more than enough. And none of that was hard to set up.
Linux requires no security, but it crashes, or boots without graphics, or without wireless every once in a while. Oops shouldn't have made that update. Oops that wireless card isn't supported, buy a different one. I've never had a hardware/driver problem with windows, never looked at my registry, and never spent hours on any problem. Annoyances, yes, but real difficulties? No. And I installed both XP and Linux myself - since my Linux dual boot went bad and I had to.
I like Linux, I'm trying to get good enough at it to replace windows, but after two years I'm not even close to getting rid of the dual boot. Even as a Linux fan I have to admit that its Windows that just works.
37 • good points... (by karellen on 2007-01-29 18:17:37 GMT from Romania)
agree with you, Synergy6 :)
38 • Biodiversity (by dbrion on 2007-01-29 19:34:26 GMT from France)
I never saw any determining superiority of Windows Xp over Linux, nor the opposite. To day, a Mandriva 2006 seems slightly superior, but it is not convincing. I looked by VMplaying to PCBSD (it was a consequence of DWW subject aof Freesbie, last week) and was enough favorably impressed not to remove the image (perhaps, when my laptop breaks, will I be very happy to have a triple boot, if BSD has a nice hardware recognition: to day, it is like Mandriv
39 • I was cut, cont. 38 (by dbrion on 2007-01-29 19:38:09 GMT from France)
to day, it is like Mandriva was 3 years ago: very easy to install, but I did not understand the hardware mechanisms; on the long term, there were progresses)...
40 • Windows users cannot be trusted (by dizzy on 2007-01-29 19:40:22 GMT from United States)
If you connect Windows to the internet at all, your data is at risk firewall or not. There are still several unpatched vulnerabilities in the kernel that can allow a remote attacker to circumvent your security at will. Do the math, people.
41 • RE 40 : Are computers obliged to be connected to the Internet? (by dbrion on 2007-01-29 19:58:50 GMT from France)
I never thought it is a purpose in itself.
Dual boots may be more robust... I never tried connecting to the Web, with some USB keys/disks to download from cybercafés (if they have a virus, they reload Windows) and a good antivirus, my XP has no problem.... I think it is not a matter of maths, but of knowing what one wants....
42 • 35 (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 19:59:32 GMT from United States)
Don't think you'll ever win a debate championship, IMHO of course...
> Give a new gun user a rifle and no additional knowledge, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. Every time. Etc. XP is, imo, *less* likely to really **** with a newbie than Linux. You can give advantage to Linux over XP on many, many levels, but ease of use for a newbie really isn't one of them.
And what does that have to do with not having any problems with XP?
> Depending on what you do with your connection, a good one will. Sorry about that.
Well, I guess the whole security industry is built on fraud. Once again, if you sufficiently restrict yourself, it is hard to have trouble with any OS. But that's different from saying XP has zero problems. Guess I'll get in touch with the company that made my firewall and ask how that virus got through and hosed my system.
> More FUD
Guess that's easier than offering a definition of waste that says messing with security is not a waste of time.
> "Windows is not perfect, end of story." Neither is anything else, including Linux. Cheers, Sherlock.
Your logic is killing me. Because Linux is not perfect, that means you have no problems with XP? Remember, it was you who said there are zero problems with XP.
> If you know enough about Linux to fully set it up and optimize it, you can handle more than "just works". For those who can't, the set-up is likely to be a huge step.
What does that have to do with the statement that once it is set up, Linux just works?
> Trying to cloak your biased opinions as fact is, though.
Umm...I actually cited a study above. That and the fact that I've never met an XP user who has *never* had a problem, as you suggest, seem to be facts.
You're a deep thinker. You must have a Ph.D. in Philosophy the way you took apart my arguments that Windows doesn't work with zero problems.
> Can I get some of what you're smoking?
Whatever you're using is strong enough. (Maybe you could use a course in logic rather than smoking something.)
43 • Re: 28 - Extra info (by Andy on 2007-01-29 20:21:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Also Mandriva One Metisse cannot be installed. This was designed as a 'Live only iso' and is not intended to be installed. If any users find an 'installer icon' hidden in the Gnome menus of Metisse please let us all know.
44 • re 43 (by glenn on 2007-01-29 20:30:08 GMT from Canada)
DRAKLIVE-INSTALLER .. Its there, just not on the desktop as an icon nor in a menu. Do a find file and you'll see it. Then execute it and away you go.
I installed it on my TP40 and it found all the hardware including my wireless, etc.
I tinkered with it but am not impressed enough to do other than play with it.
45 • No subject (by Anonymous Jr. on 2007-01-29 20:30:12 GMT from United States)
"That's just not my experience. This is the same notebook, dual booting. Windows crashing? Not never, but extremely rare. Windows XP SP2 with security updates, IE7, a free firewall, expired virus protection, and free anti-spyware plus the all important common sense are more than enough. And none of that was hard to set up."
IE7 is one of the most insecure browsers on this planet. Get Firefox, Opera, K-Melon, Maxthon, Avant, Crazy Browser, Slim Browser, ect...
46 • Botnets and Windows (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 20:35:08 GMT from New Zealand)
What is this strange comment by Michael Dell in the article below? Windows is full of botnet vulnerabilities so we need to use virtual online PCs? Not a bad idea in some ways, but hasn't he forgotten Linux, BSD etc. Is this pointless re-inventing of the wheel? What is a live CD? Welcome to the future, Mr Dell.
Criminals 'may overwhelm the web'
By Tim Weber
Do you know if your PC has been taken over by cyber-criminals?
Criminals controlling millions of personal computers are threatening the internet's future, experts have warned.
Up to a quarter of computers on the net may be used by cyber criminals in so-called botnets, said Vint Cerf, one of the fathers of the internet.
Operating systems like Microsoft Windows, meanwhile, still made it too easy for criminals to infiltrate them, the experts said.
Microsoft had done a good job improving security for its latest operating system, Windows Vista, said Mr Markoff.
But already pirated copies of Vista were circulating in China, even though the consumer launch of Vista has been scheduled for next Tuesday.
Experience showed that about 50% of all pirated Windows programs came with Trojans pre-installed on them, Mr Markoff said.
Mr Dell said the future might bring "disposable virtual PCs", accessed through the internet, that would minimise the threat of a persistent virus infection.
Mr Toure said that whatever the solution, the fight against botnets was a "war" that could only be won if all parties - regulators, governments, telecoms firms, computer users and hardware and software makers - worked together.
47 • Re:44 - Thanks (by Andy on 2007-01-29 20:48:23 GMT from United Kingdom)
Thanks Glenn, I stand corrected. Never really used Mandy One much. Like yourself I don't think It's ready to install but still fun to play with. Cheers Andy.
48 • Linux & XP & newbies (by ezsit on 2007-01-29 20:48:32 GMT from United States)
I've installed WinXP (Win 3.1 on up through XP) and I've installed Linuxes from SuSE 5.3 all the way up to Ubuntu 6.06 (far too many to list here). I've buit my own computers from parts since 1995 and only buy pre-builts for family and friends when they demand. I've installed operating systems and all types of drivers and software for years.
IMO, Linux has made great strides in installation and ease of use. So much so that I would bet almost any user, new or otherwise, could more easily install PCLinuxOS or Freespire, or Fedora, or OpenSuse than WinXP. I do not mean just install the operating system and walk away feeling finished. With WinXP, the operating system is just the beginning. Grab the driver discs, the application discs , etc.
linux installations include the drivers and more applications than you could want or need.
49 • Re: XP is, imo, *less* likely to really **** with a newbie than Linux. (by Misty on 2007-01-29 21:22:01 GMT from United States)
I'm glad I don't live in your world; I'd go broke if I did. I fix computers, meaning 90% of the time the OS -- which is always Windows, and usually XP nowadays. And it's almost always a newbie who thought Norton's antivirus was enough to protect them, or a guy who read a post from someone like you saying a good firewall was enough to protect them. WRONG. You need a good firewall (best of all, a hardware firewall), a good antivirus (NOT Norton's, for crying out loud), WinPatrol to protect from spyware and Ad-Aware to do something about the spyware that still gets through. And stay away from bad sites, sites that with any other OS are not a problem.
By the way, my rates are pretty reasonable, and there is undoubtedly stuff on your computer that you don't know about.
50 • PCLinuxOS (by Tim on 2007-01-29 21:56:35 GMT from Canada)
Well I know there are a lot of good arguments on both sides (Microsoft Vs. Linux) and being a Xp user for several years now and fairly new to Linux, I've tried several Live CD version and settled on PCLinuxOS 093a "Big Daddy" and have it as the OS on my IBM Thinkpad and as the default on two of my PC's which use XP also as dual boot systems.
As someone who is always being asked to remove viruses and spyware from other peoples systems and who has had to reformat my own from time to time because of those, I have to say how much I love PCLinuxOS. This is the most stable and attractive operating system I have ever loaded, and I can't wait to see the new PCLinuxOS 2007 when it's released.
51 • usability (by pepik on 2007-01-29 22:48:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
"IE7 is one of the most insecure browsers on this planet. Get Firefox, Opera, K-Melon, Maxthon, Avant, Crazy Browser, Slim Browser, ect..."
Firefox is my main browser. But I'm not terrified when I venture out onto the web with IE7, that's just FUD. Its not a miracle that I haven't had any virus and only minor spyware problems in years. You can read a lot of scaremongering, but the reality is not quite so dramatic.
"Grab the driver discs, the application discs , etc."
Yes. And? Is that so hard? Most PC's come with driver and application disks. Any hardware you buy comes with windows drivers. For a desktop with a wired internet connection, Linux will probably probably be more or less ok. For a laptop, you are going to have problems.
"Your logic is killing me. Because Linux is not perfect, that means you have no problems with XP? Remember, it was you who said there are zero problems with XP."
Nobody said there are zero problems with XP. Two people have said they had experienced zero significant problems with XP, which is different. Speaking for myself, I am saying that the security problems with Windows are vastly overstated and hardly compensate for the plain get-it-working challenges you are going to have getting and keeping a Linux system going. I've installed multiple linux distros on multiple computers. All laptops, which is an important caveat, but the point is NONE of them really worked as well as XP. I'm talking about as a personal computer with lots of media and peripherals. Not a dumb web browsing terminal.
52 • XP (by Victor on 2007-01-29 22:51:12 GMT from Australia)
Last night booted XP for the first time in a month, in order to help a friend with XP issues, and discovered that the system had a trojan. First time ever this has occurred to me. Xp has all the protection s/w in place, and still it got through. This is after quite some boring time of updates for all of the anti virus, spyware, etc s/w.
Compare this experience to linux that just runs seamlessly with little security overheads.
Have converted several friends from XP to Ubuntu in the last few months, simply because their systems were sooo overloaded with spyware and viruses. They have found it a pleasure and also it is a great relief to them not to have the daily slog of updating the security programs.
53 • 51 (by Anonymous on 2007-01-29 23:26:24 GMT from United States)
> Nobody said there are zero problems with XP.
"How many ongoing problems do I have with Windows? None."
Hmm. Seems like a waste of time to debate with you. None == zero evaluates as TRUE.
54 • Misc (by Dbrion on 2007-01-29 23:40:48 GMT from France)
I) Mandriva Metisse ???
I VMplayed an iso, and found it was the slowest iso I VMplayed...
perhaps it is linked to virtual artefact?
What frustated me the most was a bad version of vim : nomally, since Microsoft DOS, I found versions with syntax highlighting (can increase productivity by detecting mispellings..) . Mandriva seems to have given up their nice vim... Perhaps it is linked with console transparency (a syntax coloring vi could be very misleading), but I do not need for transparency....
I was very surprised, too, with this week DWW no 8 post: the state of OpenOffice would be quite innovating. I have OpenOffice installed on Windows XP, and it works well....
II XP and GNU/linux
When I read http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20070122&mode=14, post 124, I see also a memory leak in Firefox with Ubuntu: sorry, but iexplore.exe does not seem to have a mem.leak.... That makes 1+1 strategical applications which are most suspect with *recent* lx distr... (and here, I do not complain about a text editor one could wrongly think esoteric...)
=> for fairness, one should only compare fully debugged (or not just released) Linuxes with Windows :
two years ago, my nephew (6yrs old, he is a user, too; and a beginner...) saw NO differences between the apps I installed him on a Mandrake 9.1 and Windows XP; he did not make more dangerous mistakes on a given sytem...
I wonder if someday GNU/linux will have as much success as XP; by success, I mean "among pirates and virus builders, too". Is there a *proof* (not an incantation, not personnal experience among 95% XP users) that Linux is malware free?
Nota: As far as now, I only update sometimes clamav: it is sufficient to protect my XP partitions (as far as now) when running from Mandriva 2006.
55 • Mandriva Metisse (by Andy B at 2007-01-29 23:48:46 GMT from United Kingdom)
I'm no great fan of spurious eye candy (the console and Emacs are my two most used "apps") but I tried using Metisse for some real work (rather than just playing with it) and came away impressed - I think it does make managing multiple windows easier. It's also relatively undemanding on the hardware front compared to most other 3D environments I've tried (I ran it on some sub 1GHz PCs with modest graphics cards and it was still usable).
It's still a work in progress and probably needs a more "discoverable" interface before it appeals to non-geeks, but I found it didn't take me very long to get up to speed with it.
Overall - very impressed - I'll be watching its development with interest.
56 • Mandriva Metisse (by SlaxFan on 2007-01-29 23:55:39 GMT from United States)
I tried the Live CD on a laptop with a 2800 Athlon 64, 512MB RAM, and SiS video. I should give credit to Mandriva for being the only Linux I ever tried that supported my Netgear PCMCIA card with WPA-PSK right out of the box. Unfortunately it's the slowest booting and slowest running Linux on this hardware that I ever saw. It is far too slow to be useable on my hardware.
Regarding the XP vs. Linux arguments, I use both and prefer Linux but virus, spyware, and crashing issues don't happen to me on Windows. It's more a user issue than operating system issue. Admittedly most users refuse to acquire the knowledge that would protect them on Windows.
57 • We must read a bit more carefully... ;-) (by Basilio on 2007-01-30 00:52:35 GMT from Puerto Rico)
The infamous BSoD (Blue Screen of Death) found in MS Windblows, gives us a clue about Linux support. "If you are experiencing troubles, call your system vendor"... Who do Windows users call for support? The system vendor, NOT Microsoft. We, systems engineers are commited to support a system we cash in by helping users in their nightmares... so it is NOT inmoral to charge Linux users for supporting them in the road to freedom. Thanks all of you for your comments... I wait EVERY monday for DWW.
P.S.: Install, support and train new Linux users... and make a living by doing so... you will be saving them lots of money in the process.
58 • Linux vs XP: a bit boring - the real issue is options (by Rad on 2007-01-30 02:42:22 GMT from Australia)
Thanks for an interesting read. I use XP for the applications I have to use (work) and I've "played" with lots of live linux CD's. I have done some real work using Linux also, but simple stuff.
I'm really impressed with the quality of Linux but the only Linux I've installed on my hd is OpenSuse. Don't know why: I like Elive, Sabayon, Mandriva One (M) etc and I'm blown away that in recent times wireless works from my laptop on a live CD. Still, Susse seems kind of right (ignore it, its just me)
By the way, I'm what you might call a total Newbie when it comes to fixing PC problems (I've learned how to take an image and when I get an XP problem, just re-image it and it goes away - except that then I have to reinstall openSuse as Grub gets stuffed up. Happy to pay that price though).
There is lots of passion out there and full support to all of you. However, this Linux vs XP thing is a bit boring. Suffice to say that I installed openSuse so that I could surf the net without worries. Yes - I've had my (XP) PC hijacked so that my ISP suspended my account due to the quantity of spam pouring out of my desktop, all because my son opened an email from a friend of his who was similarly compromised. And yes I did have a firewall etc.
What the linux world has given me is an awareness of the range of quality tools available and the knowledge that tools are available for mere mortals to do their thing (a friend is a broke musician with a family but she can use Linux with good quality audio tools so she is not barred from participatimg in her art and music community). This is a good thing. People benefit from having options.
Many thanks for all your efforts and I look forward to more in future DWW postings.
59 • Mandriva Metisse = may be slow & why (by Anonymous on 2007-01-30 03:48:40 GMT from Australia)
If you find Internet access is slow & want to know why ?
I noticed when shutting down the LiveCD that Mandriva have done it again :-(
and enabled by Default "IVP6" in the shorewall.conf - it even told me that my
system can not do IVP6 :-( but still enabled it during boot up (so stupid)
I can only use IVP4 and because IVP6 is enabled by default I have to sit
and wait and wait for it to fall back to using IVP4 - it does eventually.
I never noticed during Bootup/setup any option not to use IVP6 - did you ?
BTW - this is a known issued of using IVP6 by default - and Mandriva knew
about it at least 2 years ago (when I was club member) you would think that
they would remember this and give people the option to select what they want - no wonder I left the Club and stopped using Mandrake/Mandriva - the
Commercial Linux desktop Co. who "do not listen" or "remember" what users say and want. :-( ie. we will do it our way take it or leave it
I hope those of you who are playing with Mandriva Metisse have more fun
than I did = not worth the time and effort to download it (FOR ME)
60 • Windows (by Anonymous on 2007-01-30 04:02:52 GMT from United States)
I administer many XP machines and Windows is quite stable (as long as you don't run with Administrator rights). I've only seen BSOD for actual hardware failures.
But there are maybe 500,000 - 1,000,000 different types of malware for Windows (TM). Sure it's possible to remain safe if you keep your computer behind a fireware, run as a regular user, use an alternate browswer, visit only safe sites, keep your anti-virus up-to-date, and run things like WinPatrol. But it sure ain't much fun.
61 • XP vs. Linux (by Pepik on 2007-01-30 09:35:20 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Hmm. Seems like a waste of time to debate with you. None == zero evaluates as TRUE."
"I have not had major problems with Windows" is not the same as "Windows, the operating system, has no problems".
Work on your reading comprehension, I've already explained it twice.
62 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-01-30 10:05:27 GMT from France)
do you mean you've never ever had a problem with linux ? i bet you're an elitist liar...
63 • Distrowatch weekly comment (by melic on 2007-01-30 11:04:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
I like distrowatch Weekly, because of time reasons I am only able to come once a week to read about the distros so this makes it very easy, I wish there was some easy webpage to bookmark it, like "www.distrowatch.com/weekly" or similar. Some RSS feed that warns you when a new distrowatch weekly comes out would also be helpful.
64 • An Open Letter to openSOLARiS (by SOLAR!S_Winnona on 2007-01-30 11:30:42 GMT from Canada)
Ladislav, thank you for informing us about Neil
McAllister's SOLARIS article on
We enjoyed reading McAllister's article and
appreciated his suggestions, which i strongly think are
head on. After reading it, i was inspired to add a few
more suggestions to his suggestions, which i hope
SOLARIS will take seriously.
SOLARIS is indeed a "technologically superior" OS.
However, this isn't enough in order for SOLARIS to
"win back the market share it enjoyed in the 1990s".
Nor this is DEFINITELY enough for SOLARIS to win
the ongoing battle wrestling the Desktop computing
from Microsoft's hegemony. Simply speaking, just being
a technologically superior OS than any existing OS,
(including Linux and Mac), won't be enough to
overthrow Windows from the desktop's scene.
Because to win the Desktop Wars, SOLARIS --- or
any other OSystems, for that matter-- must convince
the consumers that it's also as userfriendly as
Windows or Mac, as McAllister, to his credit,
suggested. BUT at the same time, SOLARIS must also
demonstrate and ( unlike other OSystems), give total
control (choices) to consumers, as what to install or
not to install on their machines.
In so doing, SOLARIS won't only be known as an
ultimate OS with complete freedom to chooze, but it
will also be as lite as a bird, and as fast as a
jaguar. Similarly, giving the consumers total control
over what to install on their computers, will reduce
potential hardware conflicts tremendously.
Accordingly, below are a few humble suggestions, as
to how to create such a truly groundbreaking, lite,
fast AND consumer-attracting OS.:
1-- Every single part of OS that is not utterly
essential for it to
function at all should be an optional install.
2-- For every accessory, every wizard, every font,
clip, every application or feature or function that
can be removed, it
should be made possible to do so.
Coders don't always know the best. People (that's
computer users, most of whom don't even hang around
Distrowatch!) can make up their own minds and make
their own choices. But sadly, Linux-- just like
Windows, doesn't let them. Let's sincerely hope that
SOLARIS doesn't commit the same mistake.
Well, ok, alright, i hear like some of you already
are protesting and saying that lots of distros
nowadays provide you with such choices when installing
Linux. And yes i acknowledge that (Synaptic being the
major one). However, such options are very difficult
for average computer users to execute. When installing
a distro with such utilities, you really have to be an
advanced Linux user--a true geek, in order to take
advantage of choosing what to install and not to
install on your machine.
To make the whole experience easier; it should just
mean changing the default state of dozens of
tick-boxes (remember Win98?).
Just remove the check for the programs you don't want
to install on your computer. But of if you change your
mind afterward and want OpenOffice or Firefox, Opera,
Konqurer, Gimp or Gaim, just go into Control Center
and tick its box to install it; so it should be as
simple as that. Or, of course, you could just download
and install the latest version of the program(s) from
the internet, which is even a BETTER option, as you
would get the latest versions of apps.
But having said all that so far, i should also
acknowledge the fact that there still are (and there
will always be) some computer users in the world
around, who would struggle to choose (as to what
install on their PC), if they were given an OS, as
described above. Therefore, SOLARIS -- or any other OS
which wants to end MsWindows' monoploy on the
desktop--- must have a two-versioned OS.
One version has to be like the one with all those
complete choices, as detailed above. And another
version should come with everything being installed by
default, with no choices given at all (basically like
the way MsWindows today).
Anyway, that's all for now. I sincerely hope and
welcome your reactions. I would especially be thrilled
to hear direct responses from both the coders and fans
of not just SOLARIS (including Nexenta and BeleniX),
but also the coders of Ulteo, Pardus and Slackware --
the only three Linux distros, which still give me some
hope that it may eventually be possible to defeat
65 • DW Weekly (by Steve on 2007-01-30 11:41:30 GMT from United Kingdom)
the link right at the top of the DW page. called "DW Weekly" is:
If you are using Firefox you can drag this to your hot-button bar (or bookmark by hand, I suppose).
66 • Mandriva Metisse (by weg on 2007-01-30 14:56:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
I have to say, Mandriva Metisse is absolutely un-usable on my system due to slowness. This same system that can run beryl like a charm even from a live cd. I dont know what mandriva did there, but they messed up..... I therefore can make no comment on Metisse itself- as it would be unfair to do so. Peace.
67 • #51 - blowing steam (by ray carter at 2007-01-30 15:41:04 GMT from United States)
"Yes. And? Is that so hard? Most PC's come with driver and application disks. Any hardware you buy comes with windows drivers. For a desktop with a wired internet connection, Linux will probably probably be more or less ok. For a laptop, you are going to have problems."
Perhaps you could enlighten me. I've done several laptop installs of Linux with zero problems - including wireless internet. I have had one that had a couple of minor, easily solvable problems, but that has been the exception.
68 • Foresight is a great distro.... (by superbnerb on 2007-01-30 15:53:43 GMT from Canada)
I didn't have any of the problems that occurred to our reviewer.
I guess when you are on hda26 sometimes stuff happens lol.... (had no idea it went past 5 ).
Currently, the distro is slick and fast. I'm having problems playing mp3's that ken says was installed by default, and su - isn't playing nicely right now, but all in all, it'll come. I was using rpath before but that distro is the distro time forgot, it seems. foresight is where it's at, if you like cutting/bleeding edge stablility.... (some bumps but nothing that will hurt you).
good luck ken.
69 • RE:42 (by Synergy6 on 2007-01-30 16:21:39 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Remember, it was you who said there are zero problems with XP."
Do you know *why* I go to simple statements such as "FUD", rather than explaining each and every point? Because I'm talking with a guy who can just invent things I've "said", even though I said nothing of the sort. It just doesn't seem worth the effort.
P.S. For some serious cookies, find a post with my name at the top, which says "There are zero problems with XP". I will give you 1000 years worth of cookies for it. Start hunting, padawan!
70 • RE:49 (by Synergy6 on 2007-01-30 16:23:53 GMT from United Kingdom)
"a guy who read a post from someone like you saying a good firewall was enough to protect them. WRONG."
A good firewall is all *I* need. Not you, not the next guy, and definitely not the newbie relying on Norton. What I write is about *my* experiences, *my* usage, *my* results. If someone takes it the wrong way and assumes I'm evangelizing what I do for all of humanity, they deserve the problems they get.
71 • No subject (by Pepik on 2007-01-30 17:03:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
If you make sure you get the right chipset, wireless will -probably- work on your laptop. Unless you want WPA-PSK. Sound? Probably. How about hardware based volume controls and mute? No chance. Will it hibernate or sleep properly? Not likely. Infrared and bluetooth? Ha ha.
I've done several installs on several laptops. Most things work, and Linux is getting a lot better for the laptop. But hardware at install is just the beginning of your problems - one bad update and you lose wireless and graphics. I can live with that, but I wouldn't recommend anyone switch to and depend on Linux unless they have a geniune interest, have an incurable urge to visit unsafe websites, or have a computer so old and a budget so small that a free lightweight OS is a better option (although the one time i tried the guy gave up and went back to Windows 2000).
72 • RE 64 Improvements of Solaris (by dbrion on 2007-01-30 17:23:53 GMT from France)
Two points make me uneasy:
* asking for a total insight of the installed softs is very ambitious, and somewhat irrealistic.
As pieces of soft can interfere, suppressing one piece of soft (or activating it) can have consequences on some other (ex : activating transparency on terminal leads syntax *coloring* to wreck for vi and likely eclipse ' two text editors)) .
There are hundreds of such possible interferences, which cann't be solved by click-clicking (dozens of) boxes...
The fact that sometimes, one has 3(0) softs having the same function is not linked to the installer/user incompetence, but to the fact that, during install, one does not know whether a soft will be buggy (specially if it has been Internet downloaded) => the best strategy is to be as redundant as possible (specially to days, where disks are big and cheap) and hope it will suffice...
* Relying on the Internet is (I hope) a joke.
Unless you can *prove* (not from indivi idual experience, not as an act of Faith, not out of 10(0) years of experience , but as objectively as possible) *every* soft downloaded is better than the (somewhat satisfying) already existent, what does
<the internet, which is even a BETTER option >> mean?
It is not consistent with the claim of "giving total control" on softs that is installed on a computer....
73 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2007-01-30 18:03:42 GMT from United States)
> just a long list of things I live with on my Linux laptop even after two years as a hobbyist. How many ongoing problems do I have with Windows? None. I'll keep using Linux, but recommending it to friends or calling it a windows replacement for non-experts? Not a chance.
Oh, now I understand. You forgot to add the last sentence to your post: "Recommending my friends stick with Windows has nothing to do with my own experiences."
In the English language, talking about your own experiences and then talking about recommendations you make to other people implies a relationship between the two. You should have said "they might have problems with Windows" but you didn't. You offered no qualifications at all.
> A good firewall is all *I* need.
At this point it is best to say we agree you are clueless about the problems with Windows and stop wasting the distrowatch website space.
74 • feel the Windows love (by Fred Mertz on 2007-01-30 18:13:15 GMT from United States)
Wow. Distrowatch Weekly is an unlikely place to find people singing the praises of Windows. Try these links on for size:
Hmm. The MANAGER of the Vista project at MS says he would buy a Mac if he worked for someone else.
The troubles with Word show that it's not just the OS that's over-engineered and full of security holes.
And a bona fide security expert is basically throwing in the towel on cleaning up infected PCs and encouraging people to buy Macs.
The Microsoft apologists need a reality check. The Internet is collapsing of its own weight, and a large part of the problem is inexperienced computer users with MS Windows and a cable modem. How many of you have wasted part of your life trying to help a parent or grandparent with a hopelessly compromised PC? Their computers are so screwed up, you haven't the foggiest idea what they did to get them that way. Sure, you can keep a Windows PC safe, as long as you check for security patches from Microsoft (and third-party vendors) EVERY DAY.
But it's not just the security vulnerabilities that plague MS code; it's the over-engineering. Why have three lines of code to fix a problem when you can have 300, particularly with hundreds of Microserfs at your disposal. It's akin to using a sledgehammer to kill a gnat. This inefficiency leads to code bloat, and code bloat puts users on the hardware upgrade treadmill that millions of people around the globe are going to jump on with Vista (especially Aero).
Despite their worldwide hegemony, they've managed to let an open source upstart take away their dominance in the browser market. The Media Center PC doesn't work. And Vista looks like an underwhelming heir to the long tradition of Redmond duds (Active Desktop, Microsoft Bob, Passport).
Microsoft is a slow-moving and ill-tempered behemoth that is asking to be taken down. I urge everyone to help.
75 • for the DW database (by felli on 2007-01-30 19:11:50 GMT from Germany)
There is a RC2 release of SaxenOS 1.1
And the current release of Feather-Linux is version 0.75
76 • Why I still have Windows? (by frank on 2007-01-30 19:31:05 GMT from United States)
The Main reason is software, I love Linux I use it 99% of the time but there are is some software that i need. one of them are:
The Print Shop
Movie edit pro 11
Paint Shop Pro XI
I know Linux has some applications that are better in some other areas but for the software that i have mention they are in diapers we need to focus more on the home user needs and that is not only the internet we need to pay attention to the mac commercials, they have it very clear what the home users want. and they want movies, Photos and TV.
and we need something like a Ndiswrapper for web camera drivers.
77 • Debian-Installer shows progress (by Stalker on 2007-01-30 19:49:18 GMT from Germany)
Good news for those who anxiously wait for the stable Debian 4.0 release ("etch")!
Debian developers have just started to prepare Debian-Installer RC2 and they expect to get it ready sometime in next week. After that, it should be just a matter of squashing all the remaining release critical bugs before Etch can be released.
During the last couple of months Etch has gone through some extremely thorough testing, which should ensure the high quality of the final release.
78 • About Debian "Etch" (by IMQ on 2007-01-30 20:20:36 GMT from United States)
I have Debian Etch weekly-build installed on one of the test partition since November 11, 2006. And I have been running *apt-get update && apt-get upgrade* or *apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade* or ever since without a problem. I am looking forward to the final release of Etch.
In the mean time, I keep *rsync* a copy of CD1, CD2, and KDE iso so when the final release comes, I won't have a huge download to do. Of course I am assuming the weekly-build images will eventually become the final images.
Overall Etch is quite good for my needs.
BTW, Iceweasel (alias for Mozilla Firefox) is running fine. :)
79 • RE: #73 (by Synergy6 on 2007-01-30 20:33:36 GMT from United Kingdom)
Still no comment about why I'm having statements invented for me, but I'll work with what I've got.
"'Nuff said. At this point it is best to say we agree you are clueless about the problems with Windows and stop wasting the distrowatch website space."
Then, oh expert of all that is XP, explain something simple to me. Why, in the last 3 years, have I had no viruses? Why, in the last 3 years, have I had no keyloggers? Why, in the last 3 years, have I had no trojans? Should I go on?
It's strange that I'm "clueless" about Windows, when I've likely used, interacted with, and experienced it a decent bit more than you. Or are you on such a pedestal that your Linux usage makes you an expert on everything else vaguely related to software? Interesting, also, that even though you have no problem with attacking my person and my views, you can't even attach a nick to your writings.
80 • Recycle Linux CDs (by JimK on 2007-01-30 21:45:06 GMT from United States)
I have several distros on CD (many are current versions) that I don't need anymore. I'm sure several other DW users do as well. Rather than throwing them away, I'd like to give them to somebody else who might want to use Linux. My local library won't take them and there is no LUG in my area. Is there anywhere I can send them where they'll be passed on to somebody who doesn't have a CD burner or broadband? What do the rest of you do with your old CDs?
81 • Re: Recycle Linux CDs (by Mr. Pink on 2007-01-31 02:12:44 GMT from United States)
You and the planet will be better served if you switch to CD-RW and/or DVD-/+RW.
I had my set of 20 for the last four years and discarded only two after prolonged use.
On the subject of CNR. I remeber using Ximian Red Carpet way back when. It worked pretty good for me. When I hopped from one distro to another I always had the same package management system. It was a great idea. I don't understand why it didn't take.
82 • Re: 81 CD-RWs (by JimK on 2007-01-31 03:46:48 GMT from United States)
Unfortunately, my CDR/RW doesn't work with RWs for some reason. Every RW I've tried to burn has become a coaster, so I don't even try anymore. I don't burn as many CDs as I used to (with PDLinuxOS there's really no need). But I do like to play with some of the live CDs, and I recently tried Fedora Core 6, which didn't work with some of my hardware so I happily returned to PCLOS. But now I've got a full set of Fedora CDs as well as a few "experimental" distros and live CDs and I'd like to pass them on to somebody who could use them instead of throwing them in the trash.
83 • Re 80 • Recycle Linux CDs (by dbrion on 2007-01-31 06:25:43 GMT from France)
If you are interested in robots, you can make pretty shiny wheels out of CDs...even non GNU-lx ones.
84 • Windows verses Linux (by welkiner on 2007-01-31 07:53:07 GMT from United States)
You guys are a real kick in the head, talking about how you've used Linux since way back in the olden days of "distro X ver.5.1" or some such, which came out 18 months ago, or Windows XP since way back in the olden days of sp1. I've made my living installing and repairing MS products since DOS 3.3 or before, and still do. On many days I've installed 3 or more OS's (these days that's usually WindowsXP) (soon to be Vista I guess). "Windows is easy to install." That's a bunch of crap. When I setup a new machine or resetup an old machine with a new install, I take great pride in my work. If I have to dig a ditch, I'm going to dig the best damn ditch that has ever been dug. Some of you young people probably have no idea what I'm talking about. If I have to install Windows XP, that Windows XP installation will be the best that money can buy. My customers expect no less. That's why they pay me the big bucks...but that install and setup will take hours, not minutes, and when it is finished it will be a thing of beauty. It's a craft. It's my craft, and a part of my heart and soul goes into every installation, along with 30 years of experience and tips and tricks.
So, Windows lovers, please do not say that I know not of what I speak.
Three years ago I installed Mepis on my Dell c600 latitude laptop. The entire setup took about 30 minutes. The installation correctly recognized all my hardware, including the PCMCIA wireless adapter.
Today I am still using that laptop with the same OS which has never crashed once in 3 years. If Windows worked like this I would be out of business. Two years ago my then 12 year old grandson rebuilt an old computer (with my help) and installed Kanotix. He lives 100 miles away, so he must maitain it himself. He told me Christmas, that that was still his primary computer. Two weeks ago a visiting 13 year grand daughter, wanted to put some applications on my computer that I would not allow. I told her, "There's a box with a newly formated HD and here's a Windows 2000 CD and Code. Build your own computer and put whatever apps. you want on it." Her cousin, who is about the same age, quickly wanted some of that action, so I had to find 2 boxes, but I only had one copy of Windows 2000 handy. So, I told them that one would have to build a Linux box. Both wanted Windows, so I made them draw straws. The winner imediately begain installing Windows. The loser looked through my book of Linux CDs, ask a few questions and chose the new Mepis beta.
The games were on. The rules were that I would volunteer no information, but would answer reasonable questions. In about 3 and 1/2 minutes the Mepis granddaughter was online and googleing and declared herself the winner. I told her that that did not count. The OS must be installed on the HD. About 25 minutes later the CD was out and she was downloading and playing music. The Windows granddaughter was still trying to get the installer to actually start installing. When I came back home later that day they were both playing with the Linux box. Feeling sorry for my Windows granddaughter, I helped her install Windows 2000. In one 2 hour marathon we installed Windows, installed hardware drivers, ran all Windows updates(cable connection), installed AVG, Ad-Aware, and SpyBot, and tweaked the desktop and menus. Finally, she was googleing.
The next day when I came in in the afternoon they were both playing with the Linux box again. When I ask why, they said because there are no programs on the Windows Computer, but there were lots of programs and games on Mepis. I didn't remember that many games being on Mepis, but then they showed me that they had figured out how to install the games that they wanted from the Menu. My Windows granddaughter said "This is so cool, Papaw. Why don't you put this on everybody's computer?" My answer was "I don't know."
85 • Why I desinstalled Linux (by dbrion on 2007-01-31 09:04:02 GMT from France)
on a friend's computer:
I found a decent version of vim (with syntax coloring, the one Mandriva 2007 does not have by default, as far as I tested) which worked on Microsoft Windows XP. I found 2 Fortran compilers, and a bash (Mingw). It was all he needed for his _work_ (sorry, he is too old to play).
We remained friends.
I keep Windows XP on *my* laptops because:
a) it is unpleasant to install
b) there are beautiful softs, such as vim, g95, Cygwin, R, VMplayer and VirtualBox.... Most of them are Gnu Ports (if something is really good, and "works" on some Linuxes, it is Windows ported;)
c) I have installed clamav on my Linux part, which can access the Wuindows portitions, and it worked for one trojan in 6 months...
d) From this week DWW post 64, I see that, in the WashingtonPest, a Microsoft developper is lucid, even during working hours.. It never happened with Linux, AFAIK.
e) The list of bugs and blunders ( I think Metisse is a sloow one) Linuxers make is hilarating, as long as I have another OS....
86 • RE: 85 (by h3rman on 2007-01-31 11:05:44 GMT from Europe)
Could you elaborate on what on earth you mean by statement d) ? I have no idea what you're talking about.
Further, I don't think that someone disliking Mandriva/Metisse is relevant to Linux. Try a less-nonsense, stable OS instead, such as CentOS, Slackware, Debian, Zenwalk, NetBSD, whatever, but don't use funny arguments.
87 • Re: 84, Welkiner (by Caraibes on 2007-01-31 11:14:45 GMT from Dominican Republic)
Hey, Welkiner, what a great post !
I totally agree with what you wrote !
I too make a living installing and maintaining windows PC's, but use 100% Linux only for myself...
I can relate very well to what you wrote. I wish there was more people interested in the GNU world...
88 • RE 86 (by dbrion on 2007-01-31 11:28:12 GMT from France)
I trust more a developper who is conscient that what he does is not perfect, and that one can find better elsewherer, than a blind pom pom boy....
"Try a less-nonsense, stable OS instead, such as CentOS, Slackware, Debian, Zenwalk, NetBSD "
I VMplayed them under MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP, or qemulated them under Mandriva 2006... It did not lead me to the conclusion that Linux was -significantly- better than Windows...
There are sufficient nasty updates with Linux to keep WindowsXP, if necessary, remove a lonesome malware, and look at other OSs such as PCBSD (I found it very interesting, I ll see to investigate more further if I break one of my laptops; this one of the -rare- OSs I keep as qemu-images).
Please note that I had more BSoD with Linux (it was the PCMCIA horror, I fixed by adding a new kernel) than with XP... BSod arguments????
There are interesting things in Linux, I do not deny it (MCN virtualcity may lead to VirtualBox,[nice Windows port] and it seems a good idea to me), but nothing serious enough to convince me to advise it to friends....
BYTW Arguments based on 3(0) yrs experience make me laugh...
89 • To dbrion (by linbetwin on 2007-01-31 12:52:31 GMT from Romania)
dbrion, your posts are so entertaining, I can barely understand half of what you're saying. Your sentences are so intertwined and you use such strange punctuation. Have you considered posting in French?
I hope you are not offended by this. If you are, I sincerely apologize. I meant no offense.
90 • RE 89 I know my English is bad. (by dbrion on 2007-01-31 13:01:01 GMT from France)
but I am happy that you understand the best half. That is because I use iexplore.exe, which does not crash, but I see tiny (2.5mm) characters ...
As I try to answer to unlucid Linux loovers, I sometimes repeat myself => half I write is (more than?) sufficient.
BYTW, your posts are IMO of good intellectual quality....
91 • RE #90 et al. (by linbetwin on 2007-01-31 13:31:38 GMT from Romania)
BYTW, your posts are IMO of good intellectual quality....
Thank you for your compliment, but I don't deserve it, especially after what I said about your posts.
That is because I use iexplore.exe
I don't use iexplore.exe, but I use firefox.exe, and it's a lot more stable and trouble-free than firefox.bin.
I've been fiddling with Linux for two years and I would love to use it full-time, but the two screen magnifiers (gnome-mag (with orca/gnopernicus) and kmag are two buggy (although gnome-mag has made a lot of progress). They, slow down the system, swallow a lot of resources, freeze, crash other apps and don't don't have proper cursor focus. OTOH, the Windows magnifier works great (I'm talking about magnify.exe, the little app that ships with Windows, not the expensive commercial magnifiers). Without this application I would never have been able to use a computer.
The Windows vs. Linux debate is pointless. The OS is not the only factor that matters. You have to take into consideration (1) the user and his computing skills and needs, (2) the hardware configuration, (3) the work environment, etc. I have never had any serious problems with Windows XP, not even with 98SE, but maybe I've been lucky.
I hope someday I will be able to use a Linux distribution with a good screen magnifier, but I'm afraid 2007 isn't going to be the "year of Linux" for me.
92 • re 84 (by Bernie on 2007-01-31 15:45:55 GMT from United States)
i have a computer store myself an i have used Mepis about 2 1/2 yrs an it is all i use an in my store about 70% of all new computers leave with Mepis on them an the computers that come in with the virus an the rest (windows) a good deal of them leave with Mepis on them also. an most people have little or no trouble with it . but they know any questions they have i am here for them (winblows or Mepis) Warren has done a great Job an the help i got from him the first time i tried it was nothing short as a shock when i learned who he was ...... i have been very impressed ever since an more with every update ........ thoes of you that have stores or work on computers we need to let the beople know that there is something besides windows. i like the store about the 2 girls witt=h the Mepis box... an old g/f of mind when she comes over with her 6 yr old he jumps on my PC (mepis) an has no probs but she says she needs to help him with her windows computer all the time lol she also works with computers an has tried Mepis but she likes her windows ... her 6 yr old tries to get her to change so maybe the next gen will be more open... 1 can only hope bernie
93 • re 84 (by Bernie on 2007-01-31 16:00:36 GMT from United States)
i just read my own post an i am sorry about the spelling ........ i used a diff os for over 3 yrs before Mepis an i have found nothing better since .. but i am always looking for something better . but i think it would be hard to find something that i like better or would be as easy for someone new to linux
i just want to say post 84 was the best post i have read here today an thanks for all the Linux distros an to distrowatch for this sight..
94 • Accessibility in Linux (by octathlon on 2007-01-31 16:01:43 GMT from United States)
Re: 91. Your comment about the screen magnifiers brings up a question I have had for some time. Why is accessibility so poor in Linux? When I first started looking into it, I expected that an open source OS, with so many customized distros and applications would have some great features like screen readers & magnifiers built into the UI.
Maybe it's a matter of time and priorities. Unfortunately, I don't have the programming skills to contribute to the effort, but I think it's a very important area to work on. Screen readers in Windows cost many hundreds of dollars and are buggy (but magnifiers are easy to come by, for those who can get by with them). Does anyone know how much work is being done on accessibility in Linux and what progress is being made? I have found very little info in my web searching.
95 • Great News!! (by John Cassidy on 2007-01-31 16:26:23 GMT from United States)
I have some great news, that everyone may find very interesting!!
With everyone's assistance, I have been able to make a Dapper based Live CD that contains KDE, Gnome and XFCE all on one CD, not to mention a whole slew of programs on top of all this.
I would like to go ahead and make a public announcement as this has never been achieved in Linux to my knowledge and to me it really is a huge step forward, never having to choose which desktop you like or need, they are all there in one.
I thought Distrowatch should be the first to know, but I also wanted to ensure that everyone is included in the accolades and acknowledgments, as without your assistance, I don't think I could have achieved this.
I would like to get this out, as there is some minor bug patches to do, but nothing major as it is based on the most up to date Dapper as of this writing.
Best Regards, and looking forward to hearing from you....
96 • RE: #94 (by linbetwin on 2007-01-31 16:39:06 GMT from Romania)
About the progress of accessibility development in Linux:
KDE 3.x.x is not very accessible, but I read KDE 4 will have much better assistive technologies. I hope this promise will materialize, but there is very little information right now.
GNOME is much more advanced in this field and it's getting better with each release (Orca, gnome-mag, GOK, etc.).
There is also some progress in the development of apps like OpenOffice.org and Firefox.
Most distributions do not pay too much attention to accessibility (a11y). They just package what GNOME and KDE have to offer. The exception is Ubuntu: they have a very active a11y team and gnome-mag works best in Ubuntu (I don't know about other apps, I don't use them and wouldn't know how to test them.)
But it's not only the problem of accessibility apps: the developers of ALL applications must make sure that their programs work with a11y apps
97 • question 94 96 What is the difference between (by dbrion on 2007-01-31 17:07:37 GMT from France)
screen readers and magnifiers?
I really did not know such a thing exists (I use manually held lenses for paper and screens, if necessay)
98 • Re: #97 (by linbetwin on 2007-01-31 17:53:12 GMT from Romania)
Screen magnifiers are virtual magnifying glasses that enlarge the screen and follow the mouse pointer and keyboard focus.
Screen readers are text-to-speech (TTS) applications that read text on the screen for you.
99 • Mandriva Metisse (by George on 2007-01-31 18:53:08 GMT from United States)
A lovely distribution, making me wish that it were available not just on a LiveCD, but also as an installable OS. Does anyone know if/when one will be available?
100 • accessibility development on kde (by Andrew on 2007-01-31 20:41:26 GMT from Canada)
I hope its real accessibility development, and not just remove as many features as you can accessibility, cause we have enough of that already....
101 • @dbrion (by h3rman on 2007-01-31 20:41:37 GMT from Europe)
Too bad that Linux didn't work as wel for you as it did for me.
I can only hope that Linux will improve in even greater speed, to entice you into trying it.
Personally, I haven't felt the need to look for OSes outside Linux/BSD.
That is frankly very conservative too. ;)
I like the more stable OS'es a bit more than the latest edgy eye candy; hopefully Compiz-style stuff will get a bit stabler this year. A bit shaky so far.
I love Vista though: people will have to get new PCs to get Vista, and since my favourite Linux runs on anything from pentium 2, I'll be glad to do some great business second hand!
Which I, of course, advise to all Linuxers out there. Try Xfce! It's light and fully functional. Awesome!
102 • Windows / others OS (by glyj on 2007-01-31 22:35:47 GMT from New Caledonia)
Hello everyone !
I think the problem is not in the terms of quality like «windows is better than Linux» or «Linux is better than windoo». Everything is a question of «liberty, equality, fraternity» ... I know it's not from me...it's MR Stallmann... I think he's right !
The Windows logic is : «controling the user as much as possible to take him the most money»
The free software system logic is: «give liberty as much as possible»
That's why I switched to linux 6 years ago... I don't know how windows XP looks like ;-) I remember last time i used windows, it was mindows millenium.
Even if windows is better, I will stay with my free software system : liberty has no price....
recall: Linux is the kernel many free software system use, but they're all waiting for Hurd to be ready
103 • Soooome realy ugly famelix screenshots! :( (by Anonimus on 2007-01-31 22:59:20 GMT from Romania)
Have anyone seen the Famelix screenshots? That desktop REALLY *ucks! They transformed de KDE into a winxp clone. BLEAH!!!!!!! I wonder how many persons will test that distro.........
104 • Re 101 (by dbrion on 2007-01-31 23:02:24 GMT from France)
I can read (at least... ) an interesting idea in your post :
<< I love Vista though: people will have to get new PCs to get Vista, and since my favourite Linux runs on anything from pentium 2, I'll be glad to do some great business second hand!>>
I deduce that you are not limited to primary reasoning, but that
you can convert something "bad" (Vista, in *your* opinion) into working solutions (good cheap PCs).
Perhaps you might someday conceive that it is very important for me (and it might become important for you, too) to keep/maintain essential functions and that the choice of an OS is of limited interest versus the avalaibility of a *function* ( as long as there is one OS (somewhat) working...)
This is what I call "biodiversity" and what kept ppl sticking to GNU/Linux even *when* it was obviously inferior to Windows (4/2 yrs ago) ...(To day, I _sincerly_ do not know :
I think from common sense worst case analysises that having 3 Oses is better than having only one (or even 2) in a poor state)
If I am reasonably sure of at least 2 solid OSes, I can try *unconservative* and interesting/innovating/funny solutions, without breaking working ones....
If you have more rigorous ways to try amusing OSes and to keep computers working, I will be glad to be convinced by serious arguments, not by a Credo...
This is a personal point of view, and if a friend of mine is accustomed to Windows (or to Linux, or...) I manage for him to go on and to find what he needs...and we remain friends...
105 • Spreadsheets in Linux (by DaXiuyi on 2007-02-01 00:34:09 GMT from Australia)
Am strongly tempted to move from XP to Linux (most likely candidate being Mint, because I'm lazy :P), but as a mathsy finance-y kind of guy I am heavily reliant on a good spreadsheet program.
However the lack of a capable linux alternative to Excel means I might have to dual-boot. I know OO has Calc, but it is lacking some advanced features such as a Solver-type mechanism (I think), Pivot Tables etc. Is there anything else available out there?
106 • Magnifiers and happypenguins (by Fractalguy on 2007-02-01 01:48:08 GMT from United States)
I spend a lot of time researching on the Web using Mozilla browsers. And I hate the tiny san-serif phont used on so many sites. I need larger print and have found a way, even if awkward at times.
There is a bookmarklet called 'view' that displays a marked text in a new browser window. This will only contain the text I mark and there I can increase its size to my hearts content. I like 200% and even sometiumes 260% on my 1280x1024 screen. http://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/pagedata.html#view_selection
Here is the deal, many sites - even distrowatch - use side panels for their promotional links. I dislike this since it takes screen from the primary article I'm reading. And when one uses the increase font option (Ctrl-+) the side panels creep into the window and even overlap text. So I mark the article part and click 'view' and read from just the portion I want. And best of all, the font setting on the original is forgotten and my default serif shows up.
Oh, and brovo to article #84. The young will move to Linux sooner than one would think except for those stuck on games. In a post to a friend I made a joke about Linux and penguins and made a pun on Happy Feet, namely 'happypenguin'. Well guess what - there really is a site by that name: http://happypenguin.org/ featuring games in Linux. I think they should get more air time as should all Linux games.
107 • RE: 105 • Spreadsheets in Linux (by IMQ on 2007-02-01 01:55:33 GMT from United States)
Crossover Linux may be a solution for your problem if Excel is the only app you need under Linux. I know Crossover Linux is not free, but think of all the problems and hassle you don't have to face everyday like Windows users: constantly updating anti-virus, anti-spyware, trojan, etc.
Crossover Linux has a 30-day trial to see if it works for you.
Also, have you checked with the OpenOffice.org people to see if the features you need are built into OO Calc but were called different names?
Just a thought.
108 • Re: 107 (by Daxiuyi on 2007-02-01 03:03:46 GMT from Australia)
Yes I've checked OOo about Excel's Solver for instance, it's an ownerless project at the moment :S
Serious? Hmm, US$70 (A$100) doesn't sound so bad for CrossOver. Will look into it some more. Thanks heaps for that!
For all MS's faults, Excel is really a very very good program (I'd say the only decent one they've come up with :P) Unfortunately, nobody has developed an OSS alternative that can compete with it at an advanced level... yet. But believe me, the moment OOo or CrossOver or someone can, a lot of people who are capable of using Linux (smart people who can do maths :P) will switch...
109 • 99 • Mandriva Metisse (by Anonymous on 2007-02-01 03:22:06 GMT from Australia)
"A lovely distribution, making me wish that it were available not just on a LiveCD, but also as an installable OS. Does anyone know if/when one will be available?"
Did you read the above item 28 • Re: all post about Mandriva Metisse
Also did you read the above item 44 • re 43
The bottom line = Metisse is experimental software
When it does become "stable" it is more thank likely that you will no longer
be able to get is as a FreeBee but have pay for it or pay & join the MDV club
You know it is really pointless you asking here when it will be ready.
This is not a Mandrive website or Club Forum - why don't you ask them
110 • Reply to #28 and #109 (by Adam Williamson on 2007-02-01 05:22:45 GMT from Canada)
The Metisse live CD was never Club-only.
As you say, the Metisse live CD is more intended to be a fun technology preview than a serious distro to be used as your main operating system - however, it's not true to say that we don't give anything useful away. Mandriva Free is a full (not crippled) distro containing 100% free / open source software that we give away. We're entirely confident in recommending it as a full, main-use distribution.
Before I started working for Mandriva I always ran Free as my main distro, being a poor student who couldn't afford to join the Club or buy the Powerpack. The only real difference between the paid-for and free versions of Mandriva is some non-free software and drivers (all of which you can get from other sources, it's just a bit less convenient) and the included documentation and support. Free includes all the same basic technology and functionality as the paid versions. The next Mandriva Linux release, 2007 Spring, will allow you to pick between compiz, beryl and metisse with our 3D desktop configuration tool, drak3d - and that applies to the Free edition as well as the paid editions.
111 • Thanks 98 (by dbrion on 2007-02-01 07:44:46 GMT from France)
for the difference between two functions ( if someone wanted to give his old deaf father (with a bad sight) a PC, this might be important, whatever the OS)....
112 • RE: 104 (by h3rman on 2007-02-01 08:58:01 GMT from Europe)
Sure, it's the applications, not the OS that people *use*.
And I don't recall calling Vista "bad", by the way. ;)
What I feel deep inside is my little secret. :lol:
Let's say I don't like monoculture, monopoly, and bad business models.
But you know, the funny thing is that a lot of people try to have other people try Linux, not because they hate Windows (I haven't even used it for ages), but because they like Linux(or BSD)/FLOSS and really think it's good stuff. Maybe we should all just stop trying to convert people, but the problem is that Linux means business so even this evangelizing being "necessary" is a thing of the past.
Businesses will market Linux anyway, and it will be in the papers that Peugeot/Citroen will be using tens of thousands of Suse desktops, and thousands of Suse servers too.
Windows and the programs running on it work for you, that's good. As such, there is no further need to entice you with "Amusing OSes", and no one has a right to judge you just because the Linux crowd couldn't have you use it. So I'm not up to that.
Don't worry either about me being able to use all the neccessary 'functions' on my PC. I don't play games (although I did enjoy the game with the skiing penguin a few times) because I'm jut not interested, I don't need MSOffice, I don't need any other program that runs on Windows only. And I could try stuff like CrossOver Office instead of a full OS if I did.
113 • RE: 84 • Windows verses Linux (by IMQ on 2007-02-01 15:27:33 GMT from United States)
Thanks for sharing.
You have added another example that Linux is not that difficult to use.
114 • Re: 109 (by George on 2007-02-01 17:25:25 GMT from United States)
How kind of you to be so helpful; and how nice of you to set me straight for asking a distro release question on the Distro Forum. I am so glad that there are superior minds out there, in Australia, of all places! God forbid I should seek advice here, in these pages.
This being said (sarcastically, for Anonymous from Australia's benefit, lest he doesn't see through it), I want to publicly thank Adam Williamson (Re:111) for his helpful and considerate response, both here and in private E-mail. I appreciate it.
115 • Linux vs. XP (by pepik on 2007-02-01 18:00:54 GMT from United Kingdom)
"At this point it is best to say we agree you are clueless about the problems with Windows and stop wasting the distrowatch website space."
No, at this point we can agree that you make up statements and are the kind of zealot that only leads to people being disappointed with Linux.
There's a reason that people here say Linux is better than Windows, that every Windows user they introduce to Linux decides Linux is better, and yet desktop Linux is about 0.00001% of the non-techgeek market. Its because Windows is easier to use and more versatile. Its because the security issues are overdone, and in the end the cost of Windows isn't prohibitive.
I hope Linux one day becomes more popular than Windows. I will keep trying to use free software myself whenever possible. But I'm not going to get delusional and encourage everyone I know to replace Windows with Linux as their primary OS when I know it isn't ready. I think that day is still years away.
116 • Re: 115 (by George on 2007-02-01 20:43:30 GMT from United States)
I could not agree more; while Windows is not infallible (laughter here), there is not one distribution of Linux that doesn't have a fault or a bug or an inadequacy of one sort or another. (Just read descriptions of each distribution above). If Linux were so perfect, why would every new release of Linux be talking about fixing bugs, correcting security issues, etc. That aside, I just love the latest Mandriva and SuSE releases.
117 • RE: 116, 115 (by h3rman on 2007-02-01 21:28:47 GMT from Europe)
I think this is a matter of expectations.
There are some distros that *are* actually trivial to use and set up, incredily stable, and that have very few bugs. Problems occur when people start installing closed drivers, mess around with the wrong repositories, etc.
Then, another problem is that people are easily spoilt, they want the latest, shiniest and greatest, and some edgy distros are not particularly stable and have their share of bugs.
Most Linux users that consciously choose using Linux/FOSS don't care about frequent updates, but say you are a zealot and you want your uncle, niece and granny to use Linux for browsing the web, watching Youtube, email, messaging and typing a few papers, then don't install crazy edgy stuff, because if their 3D-blob is messing around, who will be fixing it?
For total on-geeks, just take (if you really have that urge to convince them their computer needs to be saved) a stable distro that's proven itself, that possibly released an updates ISO to their present release (say, Buntu 6.06.1 (maybe), the updated Fedora 6 (maybe), Debian Stable (certainly), CentOS (definitely), or whatever else is stable and not buggy.)
Make sure there is hotplug for mounting USB-stuff, otherwise they will call you up and you have to explain how mount works.
And please don't have anyone use Linux if all their periferals don't work great with Linux either...
Provided all these conditions are met, I would have no idea what could be harder to use, buggier, or more problematic about these distros as compared to MSWXP.
"Linux is ready", of course it is, but *not every 'Linux' is ready.*
118 • Re: 117 (by Anonymous on 2007-02-02 10:06:00 GMT from United States)
desktop Linux is about 0.00001% of the non-techgeek market. Its because Windows is easier to use and more versatile.
Its because the security issues are overdone, and in the end the cost of Windows isn't prohibitive.
Not sure what world you are living in, but I've seen so many Windows machines compromised by spyware and worse. I think most of the anti-virus vendors have about 200,000 types of malware in their database... and that's only the ones they know about.
And for many people in the world, the cost of Windows is prohibitive (except for pirated versions.)
119 • Benchmark (by Anonymous on 2007-02-02 10:50:40 GMT from Germany)
I let run the SPECviewperf® 9.0.3 benchmark on Mandriva 2007 and windows XP with the newest atidrivers. Sadly was Linux little slower.
are there other good benchmarks for compare windows and linux?
I did not found many on internet:(
120 • XP vs. Linux (by pepik on 2007-02-02 13:06:56 GMT from United Kingdom)
"I think this is a matter of expectations."
I agree 100%, that was the point I was trying to make.
"Problems occur when people start installing closed drivers, mess around with the wrong repositories, etc."
I agree with that too. But running Nvidia drivers isn't really asking so much of an OS. It may not by Linux's 'fault', but that changes nothing for the user.
"Provided all these conditions are met, I would have no idea what could be harder to use, buggier, or more problematic"
I think that in the end configuring Windows for adequate security (not that hard) compared to configuring Linux for the latest and greatest media apps drivers codecs etc etc (even with Easyubuntu), Windows is unfortunately still easier.
121 • Desktop linux (by Bryan on 2007-02-02 14:00:39 GMT from United States)
The linux desktop is very useful and many non-techie could actually use it with little trouble. However, if you feel like recommending it because of malware troubles but don't have time to be the tech person for the concerned party, consider recommending a mac. The underlying system is essentially BSD with Apple's own windowing system. I bought an old imac (333 MHz G3 imac) for my wife to use and it's fairly functional. I'm sure that a more uptodate imac would be a screamer. Apple also bundles software for most home tasks - open source can fill in the gaps (OOo, eg).
I have taken to recommending macs in general for the folks that I think would still be well served with a proprietary system (for the tech help, etc).
That said, we have 4/6 desktops at my office running linux with little to no trouble. Of course, I'm here to stamp out any little ones before they become headaches, so I don't know how it would go without me.
122 • Linux vs Windows (by Scionyk on 2007-02-02 14:21:54 GMT from Canada)
I normally shy away from these kinds of debates for the simple fact that they are so overdone and redundant, but there have been some very interesting and enlightened comments on here (along with some that weren't, but I'm not here to flame anyone...)
IMO, the biggest problem with Windows is that it caters to our need for everything to be simple and work automatically for us, with the original intention of making our (computer) lives easier and more efficient. That was how it *should* have worked out. Instead, we have been given an OS in the form of Windows that does a lot of things automatically for us, whether they be good or bad. Windows will *very* efficiently install a program or a virus or a bad key into the registry, it doesn't care. Apart from installation messages on your screen however, it won't tell you anything else that's going on, because it (and MS programmers) assume you don't care, you just want it to work. It teaches us not to worry and become lazy and complacent, and in the MS world and with the slime pit of the internet, that is a VERY bad thing.
Yes, for those that know what they're doing, Windows can be maintained and kept spyware/virus/glitch free, but how much time needs to be invested to do that? How much money is being spent in A/V, malware and firewall programs, just to keep the OS safe from the internet. That's not even counting the maintenance on the OS itself, such as bloating registry and performance slowdown over time. I've heard so many IT and computer professionals say that they regulary re-install Windows every 6 months for that very reason. Are you going to tell them that they don't know how to maintain windows? Of course you're not. They do it because it's necessary, and to me, it's inexcusable on the part of MS. IMO, the time invested in having to "babysit" windows and make sure it doesn't do anything stupid is not worth it. Yes I can do it, but I don't want to. That is certainly not following the MS intention of making things simpler.
MS is to blame for shoving windows onto the marketplace and forcing it on people, but in some ways we are to blame even more for demanding that software be easy and do more things for us automatically. That spells lack of control, and while on the surface it makes Windows easy to use, underneath it's a ticking time-bomb of problems.
I think people were much better computer users back in the days of DOS, where the computer wouldn't do anything until you typed in the commands and gave it instructions. Granted, the internet hadn't taken off and become the haven for bad stuff it is now, and programs themselves were less advanced that problems could start occuring, but still. It forced us to learn, and to become competent. Windows threw all of that in the garbage... point, click, and that's it. I don't think Linux is any harder to use than learning anything new, it's just from the fact that we have been babied for a long time now, and have lost the edge we had in the days of DOS.
Linux is not without it's share of problems either, and I still have windows on my PC to use for some programs and games that I can't be bothered trying to get to work in Linux. Hardware support still leaves a lot to be desired, along with the lack of some equal alternatives to windows programs and instability with some of the newer edgier distros. That being said, Linux will overcome those problems, it's only a matter of time.
In closing, anyone can learn to use Linux well, and to say it's not for newbies is just not a valid argument. Yes, it takes more for them to learn, but with anything new, eventually the training wheels will come off the bike, and you can ride by yourself.
123 • No subject (by pepik on 2007-02-02 14:54:13 GMT from United Kingdom)
"Yes, for those that know what they're doing, Windows can be maintained and kept spyware/virus/glitch free, but how much time needs to be invested to do that? How much money is being spent in A/V, malware and firewall programs, just to keep the OS safe from the internet."
How much time and money? Zero money and not much time. Install a free firewall, a free spyware detector, and get free virus scanner or none at all unless you plan on opening mystery documents. Update them once in a while if they don't do it automatically. Its not that much of a burden.
"I've heard so many IT and computer professionals say that they regulary re-install Windows every 6 months for that very reason. Are you going to tell them that they don't know how to maintain windows?"
I think this is a bit of a myth, I hear it all the time but I have never actually met anyone who says they reinstall XP regularly. 3.0 or 95 maybe, but XP just isn't that bad.
Looking back, i've had alway been amazed how bad Windows is/was. They tend to look even worse in retrospect than they did at the time (maybe with the exception of NT and 2000). But XP is a workable product. The innards and the interface are good enough. I'd much prefer OS X, but the point is XP is a workable OS. And that's all people want from it.
"In closing, anyone can learn to use Linux well"
I think that's only true if people want to learn. Sure there are benefits to learning to do things yourself, from switching off autopilot and figuring out how things really work. But you have to want to learn, and most people don't. I've tried encouraging people to experiment with Linux on a spare computer or as a dual boot. They're not interested, even most IT people I know have never bothered. In fact I meet people who work with Linux for a living and then go home to their Mac.
124 • Windows vs Linuxes and 'funny' linuxes RE 119, 112 (by dbrion on 2007-02-02 15:38:26 GMT from France)
<< How much money is being spent in A/V, malware and firewall programs, just to keep the OS safe from the internet<<
As far as I was concerned, it did not cost me a buck (I donnt know the price of the US$ to day) by using Clamav under Linux with a dual-boot.. I just hope Linux won't become enough popular to become virus-infected (perhaps Windows will then become ironically very useful as a system rescue.... I look at PC-BSD to-day /* Deux précautions valent mieux qu'une */ ...).
There is another reason _never_ to wipe off an expensive, annoyous to install system: I find obcene to burn a 100 E$ bill (It make more great bucks, 84)
112 : in your post, you seemed shocked by my using the term "amusing" for some linuxes. It does not mean I despise them, even if they sometimes are difficult : with a little chance, one can find nice applications, which may be Windows ported...
In 2003, as one (say , a politician) would ask 'is there _any_ Linux distribution whou could be usefull for something like, say, tax collecting?' the only reasonable answer was a massive derision smile.... I fear it is not the case to_day, which can be a source of illegal software.
125 • kudos and a small point (by Fred Mertz on 2007-02-02 16:12:47 GMT from United States)
I just wanted to say that I agree 100% with Scionyk. Fantastic post. Made me want to get out my "DOS is BOSS" pin.
A small but not unimportant point regarding OpenOffice on Mac: It doesn't work on Aqua. From the OO.org website:
"Platforms currently supported include...Mac OS X (under X11)..."
You have to get out of Aqua and run X to use OpenOffice. I have some experience with it, and it's no fun, especially for printing. Alternatively, you can use NeoOffice, an OO mimic that runs natively in Aqua. I have some experience with this as well and let me tell ya, it ain't the same thing.
I think the Mac vs. Linux debate is much more interesting than any controversy involving Microsoft, and one of the major points in Linux's favor is OO. You just don't have a good word processing option for Mac: MS Word is too expensive unless you're a teacher or student; Pages is limited; OO doesn't play nicely on Mac; AbiWord on Mac blows; WordPerfect is Windows only; and so on.
Combine that with some people's preference for AmaroK over iTunes, and you've got a compelling case to be made.
126 • APLICATIONS!! (by Frank on 2007-02-02 18:10:04 GMT from United States)
I think we need to move the game to other stage. stability, security, beautiful, easy to install, upgrade, and more linux is way better than windows. I think we need to focus in creating some great applications for linux, and just for linux pleas do not port them to windows.
why a windows user will switch to linux? security that has been our argument for so long but vista is getting there, we need to offer them exclusivity it is like a exclusive club were everyone wants to go or some fancy designer stuff that many people wants to have, we need great software that only runs in LINUX!!
127 • Price of OpenOffice (RE 125) (by dbrion on 2007-02-03 15:10:26 GMT from France)
If not finely tuned (how?), OO takes 10 more seconds to open than MS Word (this is a mild number). Now, suppose that for clerical work, one has to open 10 documents a day, multiply this by the number of working days, and convert it into a salary (ppl wait while the doc is being opened). You will see that, for professionnal use, a MS Word licence is not that absurd...
It happens, when Linux is used professionnaly, that MS licences are kept and MS Word works under some kind of emulation... This is economically interesting.
The single flaw I find in these facts is linked to
, a MSWORD documents CLI viewer/converter (if one needs only to read 80% of the documents). I donot know whether antiword is Windows ported (it would be an exception; as Windows seldom changes, Windows ports are often more beautiful than their Linux conterpart and give to windows addicts an optimistic idea of what Linux can do)
I do not think a boycott logic (126) will change anything to that....
128 • Re 127 (by Frank on 2007-02-03 15:53:46 GMT from United States)
It worked fine for M$, If you ask people why they do no switch to linux they will tell you, because i need Photo shop or some other program that only runs on M$ windos.
129 • re #128 - 'need' MS programs (by ray carter at 2007-02-03 16:53:43 GMT from United States)
How patently absurd. No one 'needs' photoshop or any other MS program. What they 'need' is to be able to edit photos, or whatever any other program does - they have no 'need' of any particular program to do it.
130 • No subject (by Frank on 2007-02-03 19:39:09 GMT from United States)
maybe not you,or your friends do not "NEED"good quality software, but please read this:
and for video editing are you going to use kino jajaja or this:
and those are just for home users
131 • This one example (by Frank on 2007-02-04 00:05:10 GMT from United States)
132 • RE 128 Did boycott logic work for Microsoft? (by dbrion on 2007-02-04 15:17:38 GMT from France)
AFAIK, Microsoft never spoke of boycotting any one. The fact that Microsoft is based in the States can lead other countries in being interested in Linux, as sometimes boycott rumors happen: the minimum requirement is that Linux should be "not _too_ bad".
This is why Linux was avoyded in 2003 (it was that bad for , say, tax collecting), and , as boycott (even rumors) leads to very-long lasting mistrust, some institutions kept being interested in Linux, and perhaps this interest will be converted into money to Linux developpers some day (individual linux lovers do not pay that much) or ... into very interesting prices from Microsoft....
Anyway, I feel Microsoft suffered (and will go on suffering) more than they earned from boycott rumors...
BYTW, have you any idea of the great killer application which will lead Linux to domination???
Number of Comments: 132
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
|• Issue 594 (2015-01-26): KaOS 2014.12, Commercial distros, Snappy Ubuntu, PackageKit fixes|
|• Issue 593 (2015-01-19): ReactOS 0.3.17, Unity on Mir, Bluetooth support, openSUSE election|
|• Issue 592 (2015-01-12): Mint 17.1, load averages, binary logs, GNOME Software|
|• Issue 591 (2015-01-05): Manjaro 0.8.11, systemd, Devuan, Torrent Corner|
|• Issue 590 (2014-12-22): Fedora 21, Ubuntu phone, expanding ZFS storage, Able2Extract|
|• Issue 589 (2014-12-15): Parsix 7.0, Ubuntu "Snappy", PC-BSD upgrades, How Linux Works|
|• Issue 588 (2014-12-08): PC-BSD 10.2, rolling-release Ubuntu GNOME, Bitrig, systemd|
|• Issue 587 (2014-12-01): Trisquel 7.0, Kubuntu 14.10 "Plasma5", FreeBSD on 64-bit ARM, Jolla and UbuTab|
|• Issue 586 (2014-11-24): Scientific Linux 7.0, Debian and systemd, Ubuntu MATE, application-level firewalls|
|• Issue 585 (2014-11-17): openSUSE 13.2, PC-BSD's "roles", MATE + Compiz on Mint, cleaning package cache|
|• Issue 584 (2014-11-10): OpenMandriva 2014.1, Debian freeze, trickle, systemd and boot times|
|• Issue 583 (2014-11-03): Ubuntu 14.10, ownCloud, Kylin interview, The Book of PF, Elive's commercial ways|
|• Issue 582 (2014-10-27): GhostBSD 4.0, Tumbleweed and Factory merge, systemd and fork of Debian|
|• Issue 581 (2014-10-20): SparkyLinux 3.5, Fedora's graphics stack, Debian and systemd, OpenBSD 5.6|
|• Issue 580 (2014-10-13): Rolling releases, Arch as best distro, GNOME on Wayland, MINIX 3.3.0|
|• Issue 579 (2014-10-06): PC-BSD 10.0.3, Debian's Jessie freeze, setting up home server|
|• Issue 578 (2014-09-29): Calculate 14, Debian's default desktop, Shellshock vulnerability, practical Tiny Core|
|• Issue 577 (2014-09-22): SymphonyOS 14.1, FreeBSD drops pkg_add, MINIX on ARM, GNU screen|
|• Issue 576 (2014-09-15): PCLinuxOS 2014.08, Mint's documentation, Debian's hardware database, CDE|
|• Issue 575 (2014-09-08): Porteus 3.0.1, Fedora's blivet-gui, Red Hat's Docker, systemd|
|• Issue 574 (2014-09-01): Ubuntu Kylin 14.04, Haiku and Linux kernel, Wayland support, Lumina, Bash completion|
|• Issue 573 (2014-08-25): SolydXK 201407, VPN gateway with FreeBSD, Ubuntu MATE, Raspbian, trusting binary packages|
|• Issue 572 (2014-08-18): ZFSguru 10.1, Fedora's Flock, beta installer for "Jessie", Ubuntu Core, rolling releases|
|• Issue 571 (2014-08-11): HandyLinux 1.6, LMDE update, default desktop in "Jessie", running out of disk space|
|• Issue 570 (2014-08-04): Neptune 4, Kubuntu's KDE Plasma 5, FreeBSD and UEFI, Linux servers|
|• Issue 569 (2014-07-28): Deepin 2014, Ask Fedora, Gentoo and LibreSSL, encrypted package downloads|
|• Issue 568 (2014-07-21): Antergos 2014.06.24, Mint based on Debian stable, upgrading CentOS, BinaryTides|
|• Issue 567 (2014-07-14): Manjaro 0.8.10, PC-BSD jails, Debian and glibc, Fedora's DNF, Xiki and Opera 24|
|• Issue 566 (2014-07-07): LXLE 14.04, OpenBSD's SimpleDE, openSUSE artwork, home security basics|
|• Issue 565 (2014-06-30): Chakra 2014.05, Fedora on BeagleBone, Matthew Miller interview, e-book readers|
|• Issue 564 (2014-06-23): Antergos 2014.05.26 and Q4OS 0.5.11, Debian LTS and glibc, Fedora DNF|
|• Issue 563 (2014-06-16): Mint 17, CentOS 7 pre-release, Debian MATE, accessing encrypted content|
|• Issue 562 (2014-06-09): GoboLinux 015, Gentoo interview, Fedora leader change, climagic tricks|
|• Issue 561 (2014-06-02): OpenMandriva 2014.0, Debian GNU/Hurd, Lubuntu and LXQt, Final Term, TrueCrypt|
|• Issue 560 (2014-05-26): KaOS 2014.04, Wayland and KDE 5 on Fedora, distros with commercial support, DenyHosts|
|• Issue 559 (2014-05-19): VortexBox 2.3, LTS-only Linux Mint, FreeBSD 11 ambitions, KDE 5 beta|
|• Issue 558 (2014-05-12): RHEL 7 Workstation impressions, LXQt and Lumina, Haiku interview|
|• Issue 557 (2014-05-05): Xubuntu 14.04, Ubuntu 14.10 roadmap, Fedora Workstation, ownCloud|
|• Issue 556 (2014-04-28): Ubuntu 14.04, LibreSSL, Lumina desktop, Deepin interview|
|• Issue 555 (2014-04-21): Robolinux 7.4.2, Ubuntu release day stats, Debian security, Porteus update|
|• Issue 554 (2014-04-14): Review of FreeNAS, OpenSSL bug, Fedora.next, Robolinux Stealth VM, measuring memory|
|• Issue 553 (2014-04-07): Puppy 5.7 "Slacko", end of Ubuntu One, file encryption with GPG|
|• Issue 552 (2014-03-31): Tanglu 1.0, Ubuntu GNOME LTS, SliTaz for ARM|
|• Issue 551 (2014-03-24): Linux Mint "Debian" 201403, call for end to proprietary firmware, LVM|
|• Issue 550 (2014-03-17): Review of NixOS 13.10, Lubuntu seeking feedback, Android-x86 4.4-rc1 impressions|
|• Issue 549 (2014-03-10): ClearOS 6.5 and UCS 3.2, Gentoo interview, Ubuntu app contest, Into the Core|
|• Issue 548 (2014-03-03): Review of Mageia 4, FreeBSD console driver, filtering web content, Pitivi fundraiser|
|• Issue 547 (2014-02-24): Chakra 2014.02, Ubuntu privacy, preventing unwanted remote logins|
|• Issue 546 (2014-02-17): Review of PC-BSD 10.0, Red Flag closure, Ubuntu and systemd, SlackE18, Fedora book review|
|• Issue 545 (2014-02-10): Impressions of FreeBSD 10.0, Debian votes systemd, Ubuntu file manager, server security|
|• Issue 544 (2014-02-03): Netrunner 13.12, openSUSE future, Ubuntu Touch in emulator, running commands in multiple places|
|• Issue 543 (2014-01-27): Review of Korora 20, FreeBSD 10.0, DNF, ZFS rescue CD, Bridge Linux interview|
|• Issue 542 (2014-01-20): QupZilla, Ubuntu with MATE, Arch on Raspberry Pi, best applications|
|• Issue 541 (2014-01-13): openSUSE 13.1 and Zentyal 3.3, CentOS joins Red Hat, Bodhi on Chromebooks|
|• Issue 540 (2014-01-06): SMS 2.0.6 and SME Server 8.0, Hawaii desktop, PHR statistics 2013, more on multi-part archives|
|• Full list of all issues|