| DistroWatch Weekly
1 • Ubuntu vs. Redhat (by parkash on 2006-11-13 11:17:25 GMT from Germany) |
Too bad they're having so much trouble getting along... It all comes down to a matter of taste. I, personally don't like the package management approach from RedHat; neither Debian's apt (though I'm an Ubuntu user). That doesn't mean I will start talking bad about them. We're all Linux aren't we? And freedom of choice is what it's all about.
PS. Wheee! I'm the first to comment! :p
2 • The DistroWatch competition to win four boxes of Mandriva Linux 2007 (by Saleem Khan on 2006-11-13 11:18:26 GMT from Pakistan)
Hello Dear Ladislav Bodnar,
Regarding 2 confusing question i hereby quote the refernces.
Q 2.Mandriva Linux ships with an advanced package management utility called "urpmi". Which was the first version of Mandrake Linux to include this tool?
Ans:Ref. Mandrake linux was the first rpm-based distribution to provide automatic resolution of dependencies with URPMI (which debuted in version 7.2), and its Graphical frontend, RPMDrake.
Q 5. Mandriva Linux 2007 ships with a new theme called "Ia Ora". What does "Ia Ora" mean? In which language?
Ans.Ref. You can download Mandriva 2007 in one of the several free versions ... The distro features a new theme named Ia Ora ("hello" in French Polynesian). ...
I am happy for others to win this prize but disappointed with one fact that I believed my all answers were correct.
Anyways best of luck,
3 • Mandriva (by parkash on 2006-11-13 11:29:09 GMT from Germany)
Pity, I installed Mandriva 2007 Powerpack and found out... Mandriva 2007 One works better! Why? It was not a great deal, but my wireless worked out of the box with Mandriva One for example... That's very important, since my crappy wlan card is a pain in the... And... Yeah, I still don't like the RPM approach and feel that Mandriva leaves not a very broad range of software. But that's just my very personal view --I'd like to remark that I'm used to gentoo or ubuntu, which makes me a little exigent as to package management.
Anyway, Saleem, don't be too dissappointed, I think Mandriva One is just as good ;)
4 • Puppy Love (by Lobster on 2006-11-13 11:32:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
Have you hugged a penguin today?
Share the fish.
On 3 December we have a Puppy Love day for DistroWatch watchers. We may even have Golden Puppys (etched with lasers directly with litescribe from Puppy Linux) to give away. More details nearer the event . . .
. . . meanwhile here is a joke for you . . .
Q: What did the Penguin say to the Window?
A: Open up . . . and feel the breeze . . .
- oh well . . . I did my best for a Monday morning. Any good penguin jokes? Good job as always Ladislav. Can I interview you for the Puppy Love day?
5 • Ubuntu vs. Fedora (by truurig on 2006-11-13 11:44:40 GMT from Germany)
Anyone who has knowledge of Linux knows that Fedora and Ubuntu are really different in their philosophies. I have tested both and did chose Fedora for many reasons.
Sometimes I just think some developers/testers just want to be in the news by being stupid.
6 • Free vs wireless... (by Caraibes on 2006-11-13 11:54:16 GMT from Dominican Republic)
I understand the debate around non-free stuff to make Ubuntu work Out of the box...
On my desktops, I run a complete Free distro : Blag (yes, I have some non-free stuff, but not much).
On my laptop, I went for Xubuntu, only because my wireless card (RTL8180L) works out of the box. If not for that, I would have stayed with Blag.
So it is for me too a "Fedora vs Ubuntu" debate :)
And let me add some oil at the fire : whenever I need to have dial up access with my Lucent winmodem, I use the Puppy Linux live-cd, and then the dial-up works out of the box in that laptop (sometimes I am in a place where there's a phone line, but no adsl).
So this is only my end user's feeling. I don't use any 3d graphical thing, so I happily stay with the open drivers for my Radeon...
7 • Ubuntu (by UZ64 on 2006-11-13 12:13:58 GMT from United States)
"This has also resulted in a controversial goal to install proprietary kernel drivers by NVIDIA and ATI in Feisty by default to maximise desktop eye candy."
First thing that came to mind: AWESOME! As someone who's used nVidia cards for as long as I remember, and install their official drivers whenever possible for that extra performance, to me this is great news. Even better considering Ubuntu makes it a pain in the ass to install the drivers manually (I've destroyed several installs just trying; have yet to do it successfully). Since it's technically not permitted by the GPL and considering the popularity of Ubuntu, I'm sure more deratives like gNewSense will pop up for the "pure" free software supporters. Meanwhile, I'll anxiously be awaiting Feisty Fawn.
Hell if I'm going to find a new graphics card manufacturer to buy products from just to get OpenGL in Linux after years of using such great chips by nVidia. That's just out of consideration, unless nVidia really messes up. And so far, I'm not seeing any signs of that.
8 • ATI Cards and Feisty (by Martin Hooper on 2006-11-13 12:26:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
Having just heard about the graphics drivers in Ubuntu's next version I'm glad they are adding them out of the box.
It's one less thing I have to do when I set it up!
9 • Ubuntu binaries (by vdb on 2006-11-13 12:34:31 GMT from Italy)
I think Ubuntu should NOT install binary drivers by default and THEN warn the user. It should rather be the other way around.
I have a Radeon 9200+ASUS A7V8X-X and 'cause of compatibility issue between Linux and the hardware, I cannot install the drivers from ATI.
If Ubuntu, which I'm presently using as my main OS, will switch to binary drivers by default, I will not be able to use it as a OS any longer.
It could be arguable that such hardware is not so new any more and I could make the effort of changing it. Well, money doesn't grow on a money tree.....
If anyone from Ubuntu, reads this posts please reconsider and instead give it as an option !
10 • RE. Free vs wireless (by Derek on 2006-11-13 12:45:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
So this is only my end user's feeling. I don't use any 3d graphical thing, so I happily stay with the open drivers for my Radeon...
You can use the open source radeon driver for 3d, I've got it running on my Fedora core 6 box. (very cool)
11 • openSUSE (by Cybil on 2006-11-13 13:05:27 GMT from Spain)
"DistroWatch would argue that it is OK to continue using the distribution and supporting the project as before."
Thank you for telling us what is right and what is wrong.
12 • OpenSUSE (by Ken Yap on 2006-11-13 13:08:22 GMT from Australia)
As far as I can tell, the development work in OpenSUSE remains open. Its developers are some of the most dedicated that I know of. I have submitted a handful of bug reports, some for minor things, yet they have all been resolved properly in their bugzilla system.
If you enjoy the professional piece of work that OpenSUSE is, then don't withdraw your support now. Your bug reports will not be wasted. Consider this, if push comes to shove, there is always the possibility of forking OpenSUSE. Other Linux distros will benefit from your bug reports too, because a bug fixed for one distro is known to all, as long as Linux stays under the GPL.
13 • All Or Nothing (by Barnacle Bill the Sailor on 2006-11-13 13:13:44 GMT from United States)
Well, of course it's 'okay' to use any of Novell's products, but for those who want to boycott Novell completely, it makes sense not to use anything they're associated with - including OpenSUSE.
14 • openSUSE (by Larry L. Davis on 2006-11-13 13:22:29 GMT from United States)
"Although it might seem acceptable as a way to punish Novell for its part in the controversial deal, please remember that by refusing to install and use openSUSE, you'll be also punishing the project's innocent developers who continue to produce what they believe is the best Linux distribution on the market and whose only crime is that they happen to be on Novell's payroll."
This is fine IF we are to consider the actions of Novell to be in the best interests of the open source community. We all have our initial opinions on whether this will be true or not; only time will tell. That being said, if the actions of Novell prove to be damaging to the open source community, then your "absolution" of the "innocent developers" is mis-placed. As employees, we are all obligated to 1> perform services for the pay we receive, and 2> act based on the underlying ethics of our employers. That means if we continue to accept pay from an employer that is morally deficient in some way, we are complicent with those acts.
openSUSE employees, being paid by Novell, should be judged by the same ethic standards as their employer. If the Novell deal with Microsoft goes sour for the open source community, those employees have to make some tough decisions about their future. If they chose to stay after that point, then they do not deserve the "absolution" your comments provided them.
I can only hope that a year or two down the road your comments regarding those "innocent employees" remain valid. Send me an email at that time and I will gladly apologize in this forum for my comments.
15 • Open Source the Graphics Drivers? (by lefty.crupps on 2006-11-13 13:35:12 GMT from United States)
Maybe Canonical can pit the two bigboys against one another (ATi and nVidia) to see which opensources their drivers first, for the special honour of being the only installed-by-default driver in this new Ubuntu release? :)
For my own benefit, I'd like nVidia to open up, but right now I'd say that ATi has a better chance of doing so...
16 • OpenSUSE (by Frank on 2006-11-13 13:51:20 GMT from United States)
So sorry to the developers of OpenSUSE, but I will not Test the new release, they can ask Microsoft or Novell to test it for them jajajajaja.
I rather be testing for other Distros, that are loyal to the comunity.
17 • Quiz - question 4 (by Jack on 2006-11-13 13:54:42 GMT from Poland)
I disagree. Before renaming to Mandriva the distribution was called Mandrakelinux (two words joined together).
18 • Suse 10.0 ,10.1 and Repositories through YAST (by Cletus Baird on 2006-11-13 14:07:47 GMT from United States)
Suse was much more user friendly when repositories were available through YAST. Restricted drivers and modules were readily available.
Since release 10.1 it appears much more difficult to obtain the necessary additions to the basic system such as codecs and multimedia tools.
Also, older computer systems such as my AMD K-6 creep along on the 10.1
and 10.2 releases while earlier versions hum. Beginning with the Suse 10
version, I thought they were becoming more open and user friendly and could be a challenge to my favourite Ubuntu.
With configuration options shrinking and speeds dissipating as they become bloated for older systems, I no longer see them as cutting edge challengers for many users .
19 • PowerPC (by rexbinary on 2006-11-13 14:14:40 GMT from United States)
There are a lot of PowerPC machines out there that are becoming 'ripe' for Linux, and many more will be coming over the next few years. 'Ripe' meaning they are not supported by the current release of Mac OS X, so the only operating system available for those PowerPC machines that is still being supported with security patches is Linux.
When Mac OS X 10.5 is released by Apple next spring, it will almost definitely be the last version of Mac OS X that will run on PowerPC. Apple will probably support Mac OS X 10.5 with security patches during the lifespan of Mac OS X 10.6.
So once Mac OS X 10.7 is released, *ALL* deployed PowerPC based Macs will be looking for a new operating system that is still supported with security patches.
This would be a great opportunity for all the distros that are still supporting PowerPC to significantly grow their user base and help spread the word of Linux and free software.
20 • Novell v. McSoft (by Troy Banther on 2006-11-13 14:22:54 GMT from United States)
Corporates and politicians do not reflect the thinking of the people much less just Linux users.
McSoft being both a corporate and public entity has a published criminal track record of `competition cleansing`.
I expect Novell to be diminished or completely dead in a decade or less.
21 • Slackware kernels (by Anonymoose_cowhurd on 2006-11-13 14:36:44 GMT from United States)
force users to choose between a 2.4.xx or a 2.6.xx kernel during install. make users pick one or the other (not both) so the apropriate toolchain can be installed along with the kernel choice :)
22 • OpenSuse and Ubuntu thoughts (by Cleveland Consultant on 2006-11-13 14:38:02 GMT from United States)
I really like OpenSuse and will continue to use it regardless of the MS/Novell alliance. I am a bit upset that Novell forged such a relationship that was bound to be controversial, but it will not affect my OpenSuse usage.
As for Ubuntu and the new graphics kernels: excellent! Seems like every time I try to use the latest release of Kubuntu, I am always starting out by downloading the latest ATA/NVidia drivers and trying to get my graphics setup to work - especially on my machines with higher-end video cards and high-resolution flat-panel screens. This is good news for me.
23 • Aurox discontinued (by Markus on 2006-11-13 14:44:06 GMT from Germany)
Have a look on aurox.org
24 • OpenSuSE & Novell (by Erik Sorenson on 2006-11-13 14:51:33 GMT from Canada)
I find it amusing that many of the same people who complain that Novell is "selling out" to commercial interests (untrue, BTW), are the ones supporting distributions like Ubuntu who either include or will include proprietary (commercial) drivers that provide lockins to predatory technology. Or who complain bitterly when their favourite (proprietary) video driver of piece of software isn't automatically installed for them. Just too rich!
Novell is a commercial company, but has protected its user base against proprietary incursions, just like Debian has. There will always be those who complain bitterly if anyone should even mention the name Microsoft, let alone work to break down the barriers to greater, faster, and easier adoption of Linux. Real-world. These are probably the naysayers for whom a GUI is an extravagence, a non-purist "sellout". Get real, folks, and come out of the dark ages.
I have used Suse since v7 and, since v10, have used the openSuSE product. I will continue to use openSuSE until there is PROOF that they are "poisoned". So far the naysayers have inferred this, but without one shred of evidence. Naysayers usually work this way. I find it distressing that people who couldn't start or sustain even a blog feel they know more than businessmen, corporate executives and Novell's management.
Everyone can do what they want, but being a lemming and roaring off the cliff on false, misleading and biased information is not my idea of an intelligent move.
25 • Novell Deal (by richard(kc9foh) on 2006-11-13 15:25:12 GMT from United States)
I guess I will be one of the few that will give this deal time before I go off condemning it. I like Suse(used it since 6.2) and now OpenSuse. There could be a lot more going on here. I think MS was forced into this by either Novell that may have caught MS infringing on the GPL or customers and I mean big customers of MS that said you make your stuff work with Linux in our mixed environment or we go strictly with Linux!. There are other possible factors involved. We have the freedom to choose our distro. So I will stick with Suse.
26 • OpenSUSE Developers?? (by Frank on 2006-11-13 15:45:21 GMT from United States)
Where are they ??? we heard the opinion of Microsoft, Novell and all the comminity.
I would love to heard from the developer of openSuse.
or are they to afraid to loose ther Jobs or sponsor from Novell.
27 • miscellaneous (by ray carter at 2006-11-13 15:48:20 GMT from United States)
My two cents:
HPR - an objective of the hit page rankings it to gauge current interest. The fact that someone gets there demonstrates the interest - I don't think it matters much how they got there.
SUSE - I'll take a wait and see on the ultimate effect. The point has been made that this deal somewhat legitimizes Linux in corporate eyes - I buy that. I think that overall it may do more good than harm for OSS and Linux in particular. I certainly won't boycott Novell or SUSE for it.
The closed source drivers considered for inclusion in Ubuntu - why not? It makes the product more usable - go for it.
Donations - I'd really like to see Elive get the next one. IHMO it's a refreshing change and a well done product, in spite of the nagging for donations.
28 • more Elive (by Anonymous on 2006-11-13 16:22:06 GMT from United States)
I second the support of Elive. The best thing I can say about it is that after a short period of time, it feels like home.
29 • Re: Ubuntu binaries (by Ariszló on 2006-11-13 16:27:03 GMT from Hungary)
vdb wrote: I think Ubuntu should NOT install binary drivers by default and THEN warn the user.
If you think so then go for gNewSense.
30 • open suse (by ryan moszynski on 2006-11-13 16:30:40 GMT from United States)
i will not use or maintain any suse product as long as they have this deal with microsoft. I consider this deal more harmful to software freedom than the millions of people who actually run windows. This is more than an OS choice, this is a choice by novell to deliberately undermine the community it is built on, as well as quite possibly making their CUSTOMERS the gpl breakers in this deal.
To those who still support Novell/Suse, who are generally the same people who
>As for Ubuntu and the new graphics kernels: excellent! Seems like every time I >try to use the latest release of Kubuntu, I am always starting out by >downloading the latest ATA/NVidia driver
I have this to say:
If you want to feed off the community without giving anything back, I don't really respect you, but I really don't have a problem with that sort of use. It is free software, both to the socially and morally conscious, as well as to others. I would ask though, to think twice about usage that deliberately undermines that which you have been using in the first place, if only for the reason that it continues to exist so you can use it, as well as the fact that it's just good manners and the right thing to do.
It was cold out the other day and I was standing outside a Starbucks waiting on the bus. A starbucks employee came out with a tray of free hot chocolate and handed them out to all of us who were waiting and freezing(it was the first snow, and it wasn't supposed to be that cold that day.) I accepted the kindness and said thank you, I DID NOT PUNCH THE GUY IN THE FACE. Which is what novell did to the Free/Open Source software community with this deal, as well as their corporate users, as well as the supporters of open suse, who contribute to Novells Proprietary Linux.
31 • Aurox (by Jack on 2006-11-13 16:32:18 GMT from Poland)
Don't panic. It's suspended, not discontinued. They're looking for some new developers.
32 • Yes, please DO read Andreas' blog (by Benjamin Vander Jagt on 2006-11-13 16:35:04 GMT from United States)
First, I will detail at least one reason why I am boycotting Novell: "Note that I personally think that software patents in its current form are completely wrong and should all be invalid - but since they exist, we have to work with them somehow." -- This is a cute way to respond, however it closes its eyes to the whole contract. MS is getting money for protection from patent infringement suits, which Novell at the same time claims don't exist. Novell is paying the bully, and when you pay the bully, you join their side. You're funding more bullying.
Second, I will detail at least one reason why I am boycotting openSuSE: "We're also shipping code that we have contracted like the proprietary - closed source - RealPlayer where our contract with Real allows the distribution and RealPlayer contains as far as I'm aware licensed code." -- I coonsider this offensive, since SuSE had previously stripped all non-OSS software (including many wireless drivers). Where's their zeal now? Red Hat / Fedora has always had this zeal, but SuSE was easier to use. Now that they're turning back on that, I'm changing back to Fedora.
(Be sure to read the comments on his blog, too. Many of the readers have done very deep investigation and found loads of contradictions in the contracts and the statements made by Novell, openSuSE, and Microsoft.)
33 • Comments (by Synergy6 on 2006-11-13 16:43:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just two points for now.
1) "As Novell continues to endure the wrath of the open source developer and user community"
More like "wrath of the open source news site community". It's still far, far too early to judge what effect the deal will have, either on Novell as a company or on how successful its products are. For all we know, it may be a good thing. This whipping up of "wrath", "condemnation", "boycott" is just sensationalist journalism. If this is tabloid Linux news, point me to the broadsheets.
2) "If it all seems a little childish, please remember that a Linux distribution is not just millions of lines of code, it's a religious fever which even the slightest of provocations can ignite into a full-scale war of words."
I certainly agree the "wars" are childish, and that Linux creates a "religious fever" which easily ignites a "full-scale war". What I disagree with is the conclusion that this is a good thing. I see it as perhaps the main barrier to Linux ever achieving mainstream adoption, and a blatant sign of insecurity among developers when the slightest criticism warrants a "war" of words. Perhaps if they actually had "faith" in their code they could ignore/accept the insults and do what they do best (ie. code), instead of breaking down into the same fighting as "real" religions.
34 • Novell and MIcrosoft (by Nathan Fisher on 2006-11-13 16:49:58 GMT from United States)
I've stayed off this topic for a long time, but I intend to have my say. I'm starting here but it won't end here.
I am all for making Linux work more harmoniously with Windows. That isn't a problem. But the fact is the deal only protects certain users of Suse under certain cercumstances, and is quite flaky to boot. It amounts to what another reader posted above, a way to leveredge Suse against other distros.
Novell knew the deal would be controversial. That doesn't matter, really, let the controversy rage. But the deal is also potentially dangerous. It may not ever hurt OpenSource, but there is enough potential for it to happen that they never should have made it. We all know enough about MIcrosoft the corporation to know that they are not to be trusted, and that if you leave them an opening they may very well have you in court. Anyway, this whole thing falls into a grey area that should probably never have been entered.
Were I an OpenSuse developer I would have already resigned or forked the distro, or better yet joined an entirely different project. This is not an endorsement of any other distro, frankly there are plenty of other really good ones.
35 • Ubuntu Feisty & non-GPL drivers (by Frank Enstein on 2006-11-13 16:51:52 GMT from Finland)
That Kororaa controversy http://kororaa.org/static.php?page=gpl was kinda left open when Kororaa developers decided to voluntarily discontinue distributing the NVIDIA and ATI drivers. I wonder if Ubuntu will face similar legal problems with Feisty? Or maybe Ubuntu doesn't enable the non-GPL drivers in their live-CD. Would this make a difference?
36 • OpenSUSE. (by aussiebear on 2006-11-13 17:07:01 GMT from Australia)
I'm sorry, but regardless of developer, the actions of their employer (Novell) is the main concern. I've notice there's a number of contradictions regarding this collaboration with Microsoft. (What everyone is saying).
Microsoft has a history. They've spent the last 5 to 6 yrs undermining and attacking Linux in general. And all of a sudden, they done a 180 degree turn? I don't buy it. They didn't do this just for kicks, they're up to something. And everyone is very suspicious about this deal.
As such, I'm saying NO to Xgl, mono, and SUSE.
If Novell sees that teaming up with MS is good for their business, that's fine with me. But don't expect me to support them anymore.
37 • Samba and Novell (by Archie Manon on 2006-11-13 17:07:21 GMT from United States)
If the Samba team hates this deal so much, why don't they revoke Novell's license to distribute? That'll teach them.
38 • Novell and Microsoft : can the chameleon now? (by Yagotta B. Kidding on 2006-11-13 17:10:12 GMT from Germany)
I agree with you that there is no immediate need to can the chameleon.
Who has got a working instance of SUSE, be it 8, 9 or 10, should keep it, IMHO. However, with regard to the infamous release 10.1, 10.2, and all the future ones, there are important reasons NOT to use anything Novell anymore. Wording does not matter, because openSUSE is Novell the very same way SLED, SLES, NLE flavors are.
And, if we'd support openSUSE any longer, then Microsoft would profit from it even more - albeit indirectly. Therefore, it is only logical to drop any support for Novell on the spot, at least for those who live the ideals of Open Source Software.
Taking a stand for F/OSS is no easy task, and it it is yours to decide if you want to munition Microsoft by using Novell. Any private SUSE-user will probably find it valuable to switch to Debian/Ubuntu, or CentOS/Fedora - both are great products with strong, supportive communities. Much stronger than SUSE, which never gained broad corporate recognition. Remember that the City of Munich chose Debian, not SUSE, even though Nuremberg and Munich are close geografically.
Private users will find it quite comfortable to get rid of SUSE right now. There has never been any reason for a private user to buy Novell's SLED anyway, given its doubtful value:
("SLED10, in my opinion, is not worth even its $50 price tag" as seen on Dr. Dobb's Journal)
For any corporate involvement with Novell there are five more years to ditch them, and their products:
("A five year deal with Microsoft to dump Novell/SUSE" by Nicholas Petreley, article created 2006-11-08 16:58)
Today, in the real world, Red Hat Enterprise Linux outnumbers Novell Linux Enterprise 10:1 (ten to one, really) and Debian outnumbers Novell 3:1 - all statistics according to Gartner.
You do the math.
Ladislav, thanks for the insightful blogging, and keep up the good work.
39 • suse (by lmf on 2006-11-13 17:44:32 GMT from United States)
We should continue to use Novell products because of the poor developers? How about the poor developers at Microsoft? At SCO? At Oracle? How long did you think about that position?
Novell's actions endorse the idea that Linux infringes on Microsoft's patents. Regardless of their explanations, what they have done is no different from Novell's CEO taking out a commercial at halftime of the Super Bowl and saying, "Yes, Linux does infringe on Microsoft's patents, and if you use Linux you will have to shut down your servers and desktops at some point."
I don't care about the rest. Linux does not have IP problems. Novell is claiming it does and Microsoft is paying them to say so. No more discussion is necessary.
40 • Novell and Msoft (by Alan B. Cohen on 2006-11-13 18:00:57 GMT from United States)
Much of the positioning and arguing fore and against Novell/SUSE recently is about the deal with Microsoft. I believe that taking a position without seeing the actions is premature. Let's see what happens before judging. I have my own hunches as to what will happen.
Comment 20 - You may not remember when Novell was THE CHOICE for office networks; Novell is already much diminished from the old days by their fights with Microsoft. Who knows what lessons they learned from that experience. And, as Voldemart (Tom Riddle) should learn, the lesson you take away from an experience may not be the right one.
Also remember, Microsoft doesn't have to lose for Linux to succeed, growing the whole pot of OS use makes a lot of room for success.
41 • Novell... (by UZ64 on 2006-11-13 18:01:59 GMT from United States)
I'm actually not sure where I stand on this issue.
First, I'm not a SUSE user, but considering SUSE 9.0 was the first Linux distro I could install, get everything working correctly, and enjoyed using, I can't really think bad of openSUSE in general--despite Novell's potentially (<--key word *) disastrous move (which, by the way, I don't see how anyone could even *attempt* to compare it to closed-source GPU drivers being included with a distro). The distro gave me the necessary basic knowledge of Linux to work my way around the new system and learn the command line, and the layout of the main config files and directories.
No doubt, as has been said, this move has the potential to be something bad... very bad. But until something truly bad really *does* happen, I see no reason to avoid it completely. By the time any disaster happens, someone will likely have forked the distro and recreated it under a new name. As for me... as I said, not a SUSE user, though I still have interest in checking out any major new versions of openSUSE. Unless something bad shows its face, I likely won't hesitate to try major new versions. The customized KDE/GNOME menus are something I've been interested in for a while now.
42 • Boycott OpenSUSE!!! (by anon on 2006-11-13 18:09:35 GMT from United States)
The logic of supporting openSuSE and not supporting Novell is analagous to supporting Windows but not Microsoft. After all is said, the developers of Windows are technical and really do not deal with all the legal mumbo jumbo Microsoft enforces... yeah right...
I call anyone who cares about software freedom to boycott Novell, SuSE, and OpenSuSE. The OpenSuSE code is free anyways, and if they care about freedom, they can easily all leave Novell and start a new distribution that is trully free. SuSE is just a name anyways.
43 • Microsoft-Novell deal will be a good thing (by Kyle Winkler on 2006-11-13 18:14:04 GMT from United States)
I think the Microsoft-Novell deal will end up being a great thing for the free software community. Nothing unifies better then a common enemy, and now that we have one clearly breathing down our collective necks, it should clear things up for people who who don't like GPL version 3. Now, when people say “Why do we need version 3 anyway?” we can say “Here is why. We need this update because people are finding new ways to make the GPL irrelevant.” and point the the Novell deal. It may even turn the heads of a few Linux kernel developers.
44 • Novell & MS (by Michael Nunneley on 2006-11-13 18:16:49 GMT from United States)
I too am very concerned. I just can't believe that MS has any "for the benefit of Novell" thoughts. Doesn't this somehow feel like "Pirates of Silicon Valley pt2"?
45 • SuSE-Novell (by Sad on 2006-11-13 18:17:30 GMT from United States)
History!! Does Novell knows something about M$ history? I am sorry for SuSE (OpenSuSE) developers....
First mistake SuSE did when became par of Novell. It was start of the end.
46 • quiz (by mandriva fan at 2006-11-13 18:54:52 GMT from United States)
like the other person said in the beginning a lot of the other answers were actually right and these were wrong. the name change in question was of acquisition of Conectiva NOT of the trademark issue. that was a totally DIFFERENT name change. totally unrelated except for the fact that it was recently after.
47 • nice idea Kyle Winkler (by anti-microsoft guy at 2006-11-13 18:57:25 GMT from United States)
nice idea Kyle Winkler, didnt think of it that way. although in the short term suse + microsoft = evil we can eventually rewrite the gpl and force novel to break the agreement or remove any gpl materal from their distribution (which is like everything).
law is great isnt it.
48 • Here we go again (by Scott Wilson on 2006-11-13 19:08:08 GMT from United States)
Every one chill.
Lets see what indeed happens with MS/Novell. Its a done deal. Granted History is repeating itself, in five years will there be Novell or a Novell a Microsoft company.
The up roar, proves one thing Main stream doesn't understand Linux, Open Source.
Wall Street types view Linux as "Only" Red Hat or Novell Suse. After all the model is Microsoft.
49 • Here we go again (by Scott Wilson on 2006-11-13 19:19:23 GMT from United States)
OK, Just when I think we are making headway......
Vista SNAFU which will be happing in Jan/Feb is a huge opportunity for Linux as well as Apple
Lets see what indeed happens with MS/Novell. Its a done deal. Granted History is repeating itself, in five years will there be Novell or a Novell a Microsoft company.
The up roar, proves one thing Main stream doesn't understand Linux, Open Source.
Wall Street, and the average joe Computer user view Linux as "Only" Red Hat or Novell Suse. After all the model for this the is Microsoft business plan.
Come on people.. Linux is Linux, some I like other I choose not to use. I use the gui other do not, I like the main "mainstream" distro's, Debian, Red Hat/Fedora, Gentoo, Slackware, yes Suse. some do not. Everything else is based upon one of the ones I have listed. Either way is still Linux.
50 • you dont know what your talking about.-nvidia in ubuntu (by neighborlee on 2006-11-13 19:24:55 GMT from United States)
I think people need to step back quietly..take a sip of something calming and get real. Ubuntu , if they go through with this is IMO being very brave and thoughtful and OMGosh dare I say 'progressive'.
It is a PITArse in most linux distros to install these drivers anyway is it not ?..okay sure the 'l33t' among us would likely say OH its no big deal stop being a puss about it and learn to do it the l33t way. well I say get over yourselves as nobody wants to do it the CLI-hard way anyMORE. People want things to just WORK...in windows its as easy as downloading to dekstop and double clicking to install it...some linux distros make it 'easier' like fedora ( last I checked anyway ) , but as end user you are not told WHERE to go to do this unless you think to google it or check their forums or possibly release notes; so I reiterate that until nvidia or ati makes this procedure dead-drop easy like windows users have it, that we need SOMEthing to put linux on a more equal footing, and why not do it like this ?
If you install nvidia in windows..which MOST people do/want then you are still making your system possibly unstable depending on how you use computer and and how well the nvidia devs did their job ( remmeber they are human no ??), so its no different than linux putting nvidia IN the kenrel to avoid the heache unsuspecting NEW people will be going through to get similar functionality.
Is there any amoung us that would expect people to go through this nightmare and if so, what did you drink lately to cause you to be a sadist ? ( i ts not your right to empose your selfemposed masochism on others )
so I say get over yourselves and let people that just want to 'enjoy' their computer ,- even yes in linux,- alone and get a life already.
51 • Boycott (by dbrion on 2006-11-13 19:24:55 GMT from France)
Historically, boycotts have the most inefficient mean of action (at lest in the 50 last years) even if promoted by great nations (US, Australia). They lead to big laugthters and some disconfidence.
What is the proportion of Linux users really sad with Novell and Microsoft 'wedding'? (just to know the dimension of laughter ...).
I found Suse (in 2004) and openSuse (in aug.2006) very rich and easy to install....
52 • Nice for Paldo.!!!! (by Kensai on 2006-11-13 19:31:11 GMT from Puerto Rico)
Paldo is just the best distro I have ever used, is so simple is Arch Linux simplicity but much better and much up to date, still being stable. I recomend installing it and using the testing branch, since stable is too stable and testing is stable. :D
53 • Nvidia (by Douglas on 2006-11-13 19:35:25 GMT from Germany)
I had ATI and hated it because I could never make it go with openGL. Then I got Nvidia. It has always worked with my systems. I have used Gentoo, KUbuntu, and Mandrake.
I would rather have free drivers but if I choose to buy Nvidia because it is a good product and they write drivers for Linux then I am happy. It is much better than other corps. that only support MS products.
The only reason I can see to not use Nvidia drivers is because that forces the open source people to write open drivers and it MIGHT force Nvidia to open up if they care about the 10% extra they get from selling to Linux people and all the happy tech people who then like them and recommend their products. If I owned Nvidia I don't see that this would push me much. On the other hand what do they gain by not making thier drivers open source? Does it really hide there hardware that much? I would bet that it does not, so why do it? Why not take on all the free programmers out there? Maybe they want to force Nvidia to always have HIGH quality drivers?
In any case we can write open drivers no matter what happens and we can use them if we choose. Should Ubuntu heard the users away from the open source drivers?? I will use whatever is fastest. I have never had any problems and I don't see a need to boycout Nvidia.
54 • Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. (by GWJMateo on 2006-11-13 19:36:12 GMT from United States)
Oh great, another holy war: Ubuntu v. Fedora!
Add this to the ever growing list of childish, silly, and counterproductive battles that the Linux community seems to like having.
I haven't used Fedora Core since it's fork from Red Hat. I download it, but never seem to get around to actually installing it. I'm sure that it works fine for Fedora users.
I have installed just about every version of Ubuntu at some point or another, and I find the arbitrary way that things are done are somewhat disconcerting...but the end result has ended well, so there isn't much to complain about.
I do know this, however: I do not spend $150-300 on a video card to be stuck running VESA, and neither does any Windows XP expat. Either make them available, and go non-free, or make them easy to install.
Yes, I understand. In doing so, you violate some sacred trust between..who exactly? Some "I want everything to work, but be zero cost" utopianists? I'm sorry, but I live in the real world, where I need to pay the rent to have a roof over my head, pay NStar to keep the lights on, and pay the Trader Joe's guy so that I have something to eat in my kitchen. Developers have the same needs that I do, so why should I expect them to work for me for free in perpetuity?
If Ubuntu keeps on going the way they are going, they will cement their position as a viable alternative to OSX and Vista. Isn't that better for the community as a whole?
For everyone else, drop your swords, turn them into ploughshares, and help a project that matches your philosophy.
Let the best project win.
55 • Ubuntu & Fedora (by parkash on 2006-11-13 19:46:12 GMT from Germany)
Let the best project win!
56 • 49 (by AC on 2006-11-13 19:46:45 GMT from United States)
Actually, Suse was originally a German version of Slackware, which was originally a set of patches to SLS. But not all distros derive from SLS, Debian, Red Hat, or Gentoo.For example, Sorceror, which spawned Source Mage is independent. Crux, which spawned Arch, is independent. Dyne:bolic is independent. I am sure there are others.
57 • nVidia (by UZ64 on 2006-11-13 20:23:14 GMT from United States)
I second this. Well said!
58 • 54 GWJMateo (by AC on 2006-11-13 20:34:26 GMT from United States)
"I want everything to work, but be zero cost" utopianists
The issue is not free beer but free speech.
59 • Suse vs Novell (by Johannes Eva on 2006-11-13 20:37:57 GMT from Spain)
The german distribution SuSE was lost the day Novell bought it. Sad enough when a german distro is bought by an American Software company, even more sad when it´s the "best" distribution.
Let´s hope that mandriva will stay french... and improve!
60 • Etch RC1 is out! (by AC on 2006-11-13 20:48:49 GMT from United States)
61 • Graphics and freedom (by Claus Futtrup on 2006-11-13 20:50:05 GMT from Denmark)
When I read that a distro will be bundling ATI or NVidia binary drivers, I can understand. Getting a leading edge in graphics (and good looks) counts ... but, I also wish that we could find improvements in the open source versions. I for one have an NVidia Graphics Adapter Card, and I use the open source nv driver. I guess it is a dualistic conflict. Should the drivers come first and then the features? Or can you accept binary drivers for a while - and see the improvements in graphics power - only to catch up with improved open source drivers later. I sure hope it will happen because I enjoy my free (libre) software.
Some times (often), open software will enter our lives a bit delayed of the closed source alternatives, but for some of us it is worth waiting for. If a distro chooses to support the binary drivers I hope that it also provides users with free (libre) alternatives. I also wish that companies like ATI and NVidia would let more source slip into the free drivers, credits are given for that.
Let's not forget how good freedom feels and that freedom is worth fighting for.
62 • Ubuntu & Suse (by Ryan on 2006-11-13 21:09:53 GMT from United States)
Ubuntu is doing the right thing by including these drivers in their next release. Most of us just want things to work out of the box without having to waste our time getting the nvidia and ATI drivers installed. I applaud Mark and the Canonical Team for doing this!
Why the war of words over Suse? Its still a great OS. I second with everyone else it is way too early to tell. Just give this thing time to play out and if the community must ban together, then so be it.
I third the motion for Elive!
63 • My 2 Cents (by Einstein on 2006-11-13 21:12:01 GMT from United States)
(Disclaimer: Although I've used both, I currently don't run either Fedora or Ubuntu, so my opinion is neutral on the matter)
First, I agree totally with GWJMateo. I personally don't see anything wrong with including video drivers into a distro that was mostly aimed at Linux newcomers anyways. This argument is based on an old Linux philosophy, and it's one that I take issue with: let's inconvenience 85% of the users to pacify the 15% that complain all the time. If you need a distro that's completely free and composed entirely of OSS - well that's the objective of Fedora.
Secondly, I loved Jem Matzan's review of Fedora, and his experiences are similar to mine. People never want to admit it, but Fedora has more fanboys than any other distro. It's the one distro that can do whatever it likes without getting critsized for it. Try posting a comment on any Linux website (esp. Slashdot), and you'll get flamed in to oblivion. His review wasn't any more harsh or unfounded than the bad reviews for other distros. Had he substituted Fedora with Ubuntu or SuSE, there wouldn't even be any controversy. (IMO)
No matter how unfair the review may be perceived to be, that was in no way ain invitation for Dave Jones to take shots at Ubuntu. Ubuntu didn't write the review, and they didn't even endorse it. Is Fedora such a divine enitity that it has to insult and defame anything that it directly proclaimed better than itself? The review was just one man's opinion people. Obviously it much be some truth to it since it struck a nerve with Dave Jones like it did.
64 • Ubuntu Feisty drivers and the GPL (by Sander Marechal on 2006-11-13 21:12:45 GMT from Netherlands)
In reply to #35:
Ubuntu will not have the same GPL problems as Kororaa as long as they don't use AIXGL with binary drivers in their Live CD version. Setting it up by default on install is okay GPL-wise.
Everywhere I read that installing the binary drivers by default is a good think because setting them up is a PITA, I think that's a very bad arguement. It is very well possible to make installing the binary drivers very easy *without* installing them by default. Please re-read the last paragraph of my blogpost linked in the DWW article: http://www.jejik.com/articles/2006/11/is_ubuntu_set_to_become_non-free/
65 • Fedora (by Caraibes on 2006-11-13 21:55:58 GMT from Dominican Republic)
I just wanted to react to Jem Matzan's review of Fedora.
I am a Blag user. I have been using Blag 30k (based on FC) and now use Blag 50k (based on FC). Both are very stable, everything works just like it should. I use it on 3 desktops.
I am not a fanboy, as I am currently using Xubuntu on my laptop. And I also use Puppy and Dyne as live-cd's...
It is my understanding that Blag stayed real close to Fedora, so I can tell that I just don't understand the negative review...
However, I am inviting Jem Matzan to directly try Blag and write about his impressions.
66 • The User who posted line #24 (by Andrew on 2006-11-13 22:02:50 GMT from Canada)
I want to thank you. What you said in there is all that needs to be said. I trust Novell, this sounds a little dirty but it will increase Linux adoption. I believe all changes will also go upstream so that means EVERY single distro will be benefiting from this.
I must be going now, OpenSuse 10.2 beta 2 isn't going to install itself
67 • Debian installer releases (by AC on 2006-11-13 22:04:42 GMT from United States)
Why aren't Debian installer releases announced on the Distrowatch main page? Do they not count as development releases as much as Ubuntu development releases do?
68 • Ubuntu and graphics drivers (by linbetwin on 2006-11-13 22:38:27 GMT from Romania)
As far as I know, the NVIDIA and ATI proprietary drivers are already included on the Ubuntu CDs, but they are not installed by default and there is no option in the installer to let users choose them instead of nv, radeon, etc.
Installing the closed-source drivers from the Ubuntu repositories is very easy, but of course many new users do not even know they need them.
One solution would be for the installer to ask whether you want the proprietary drivers or the open-source ones, and explain to the user the practical and philosophical pros and cons. But that would go against the Ubuntu principle of simplicity in everything.
Another solution would be to install the proprietary drivers by default but make it possible for users to choose the open-source ones. This option would have to be "hidden" in the installer, so as not to confuse the less-advanced users. It would be a less honest approach, but after all users who care about the principles of free software are usually experienced Linux users.
69 • novel (by random guy at 2006-11-13 22:57:28 GMT from United States)
novel will not donate back to linux i can tell you that for sure. they will not even include the software they make with microsoft with opensuse.
it will be just like cedega (which is good but costs money) except that microsoft has a hand in it so it will not be good and cost more money.
it is a bad idea but hey it doesnt affect me personally. just letting you know they will definetely definetely not recontribute back to linux mainstream!
70 • Re: 15 (by Reiver on 2006-11-13 22:57:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
Maybe Canonical can pit the two bigboys against one another (ATi and nVidia) to see which opensources their drivers first, for the special honour of being the only installed-by-default driver in this new Ubuntu release? :)
IIRC, the likes of ATI and Nvidia are unable to open up their drivers due to licensing agreements between themselves and the actual hardware manufacturers who make the cards.
71 • novell (by richard(kc9foh) on 2006-11-14 04:11:11 GMT from United States)
Something I should have asked earlier. How many people on here do a dual boot with Windows for playing games that don't work in Linux(even with trans gaming) or other software that yet to be ported for use on Linux? Be honest now people. Wouldn't it be nice if more stuff was ported so no more dual boots or have a separate computer for MS. The idea is to allow some of MS's products to work with Linux and some Linux products to work with MS.
72 • 71 (by AC on 2006-11-14 05:00:50 GMT from United States)
dual booting GNU/Linux and Windows on the desktop to play games is irrelevant to the Novell deal. I can guarantee that MS will not share information and code to allow Windows desktop apps to run on GNU/Linux. They are only seeing GNU/Linux as a clear and present threat on the server side, where customers want mixed environments and virtualization and interoperability, and they are trying to mitigate how much that cuts into their bottom line. they will certainly not share things that will help GNU/Linux gain desktop share.
73 • Fedora review by Jem Matzan, I disagree. (by Darek on 2006-11-14 05:37:51 GMT from Poland)
I started my Linux experience with RH 7.1, but since then my computers were "baptised" with Mandriva, Yoper, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian, Aurox, Frugalware, Vector, and at least 100 more (I judge the number by 3 boxes of 100 CD's each with downloaded distributions) exotic and mainstream releases since 2001. I also tried FreeBSD, so I guess I know how Linux/Unix may work, look, smell and taste and I am not Fedora funboy, but somehow almost always Red Hat or Fedora done the job better or at least equal then other distros. For me it worked out of the box or asked for not too much to make it working.
I am not an IT specialist. I use Linux for everyday tasks (including hobby 3D graphic, video editing, photo editing) as well as for my professional audio/music work that pays my bills. I am a normal user and I have to write that it never was a pain or great inconvenience that we could read in Jem Matzan's review?! What's more, FC would never remind me of Ubuntu! I mean gnome is gnome, can look like OSX or Atari ST desktop if you want to, but I talk about user experience here. FC is far from Ubuntu (I tried 5.04 and 5.10 - i386, PowerPC and 64bit). I had RH/FC's installed on 7 computers I owned since 2001 (laptops as well) and FC5 stays on 3 of my new machines now. I always find it not hard at all to find out "how-to" do something I need. I never found it hard to add new repositories like CCRMA, Livna, nor to install not present at installation, but needed non-free audio codecs etc.. I had mostly good experience through RH7-9 or FC1,3 and 5 (never had time to try FC2 as well as FC4, as FC1 and FC3 worked perfectly for me till FC3 and later FC5 was seen on the horizon - looks like Fedora has too fast releasing cycle for my needs). Anyway, anything I had to do, to make my systems work the way I needed, I would call EASY. EASY comparing to for example my straggle with windows system while trying for 2 days to install provided drivers and software for my very specialised interfaces only to find, that there is a bug in Windows. You could see me almost throwing my workstation computer out of the window. Yes I use windows and Mac OS also. From my Linux user experience, Fedora is one of the most easy working distros with much above average hardware detection, above average speed, and includes much above average content of new, on the edge, but thanks to Fedore developers, working with rest of the system technologies. Even my wife (much, much less technical person) uses FC5 as main, everyday tasks OS cause quoting my wife "I LIKE the way it works"! And you know what Mr. Matzan, she installed and now maintains her FC5 by herself with very, very little help from me.
What can I say. My computers armed with FC5 just work and are fast (even old ones), stable, rather easy and pleasant to use. Not to mention for last 7 months with Xgl (that I found very handy, helping and not at all "only silly and eye candy") my Fedora looks like "to be" Vista Windows+Aero causing as side effect all windows addicts dropping their jaws down on the floor. :)
So Mr. Matzan... lets do it your way... Just for fun, here are some recommendations for future reviews :
Reclaim your identity. You are highly experienced Linux/UNIX user and writer, so get in shape, analyse, think and write like one while sharing influential opinions.
Make it easy for everyone and: "Users do not want to hear reasons and excuses for why the operating environment doesn't work with their favourite Web sites or computer hardware" grievance point at the right directions --> web developers who use software, plugins , languages, scripts (things made for different purposes and tasks in general) to code their cluttered web pages. Point your finger at --> hardware vendors who use strange non standard, not specified components on their machines. Pointing at Fedora here would be like making cutlery producers guilty for all stab caused deaths in the world.
Improve you proprietary driver installation skills! It may be impossible for Fedora Core to support devices that require proprietary drivers, but it's not impossible for you to find what you look for and how to install it from extra repo in 15 minutes max. Just make choice of your extra repository and do not mix it with other as developers and repository maintainers clearly advise all the time.
Improve you network interfaces and other hardware buying habits, as only bad habits make people buy hardware that do not work with advanced distro able to control lots of hardware out there.
By the way, review of FC6 was a good bashing IBM T60p. After reading, I would not take that machine even if given for free! :)
Sorry for my English, it is not my native language but I want to make it clear Mr Matzan... it is not Fedora's fault :D
74 • Re: Nice for Paldo (by Ariszló on 2006-11-14 10:24:16 GMT from Hungary)
Kensai wrote: Paldo is just the best distro I have ever used, is so simple is Arch Linux simplicity but much better and much up to date, still being stable. I recomend installing it and using the testing branch, since stable is too stable and testing is stable. :D
Yes, it's a very nice distro: stable, fast and easy to use (although a bit geekish to install). I recommend it to everyone who likes Gnome. Here is the link to the live cd:
75 • Novell / Suse / Microsoft (by epstevns on 2006-11-14 10:35:34 GMT from United States)
I called it wrong when I commented here about a year ago that it would be Redhat who forged a deal with Microsoft. Ok, it was Novell. Microsoft has been after Linux openly for a while now. First it's lunch dates with Redhat, then hiring a Gentoo developer away from his project. So Microsoft finally got what it was after. Novell must have found something enticing in the deal as well.
I think we have to bridge over the hatred of Microsoft if we are to see things clearly. Novell had to realize the reaction this deal was going to have in the linux community. They simply are not that unaware of the Linux communitie's zeal. All of the flames and protests had to be expected. Yet, they signed the paper. I offer this: perhaps Novell understood the power and the zeal of the Linux community so well that they went in to this deal knowing that our community's power of voice and power of conviction would keep things in check.
Novell's plan is already working: Look at the threads and the outrage about the deal. Everyone involved is watching what is going on. I suggest we keep on raging, and keep on using our distro of choice until something develops that breaks the deal. Novell and Suse have given a tremendous amount to Linux. Until that stops, how is it that we are suffering from deal that has yielded no bad results yet?
Rage on. This is what was expected and counted on by Novell. They are counting on us.
76 • Re71 • novell (by richard(kc9foh) on 2006-11-14 04:11:11 GMT from United States) (by Arch User on 2006-11-14 12:05:37 GMT from United States)
I started with DOS, than try a little M$ 3.0 and...I forgot...after two? three? weeks I formated disk and installed OS/2. Do you remember OS/2? And after OS/2 was and is JUST Linux on my computer. And IMO there are many users like me.
77 • #2 is correct (by Anon e mouse on 2006-11-14 13:10:24 GMT from United States)
Please show your source that it started with 7.0. While not a definative source the easy urpmi site also shows 7.2 as being the earliest available version.
In the future please don't run contests that waste our time if you can't back up your supposed "correct" answers.
78 • RE: 77 #2 is correct (by ladislav on 2006-11-14 13:27:09 GMT from Taiwan)
OK, here you go:
"Mandriva's 'urpm' ('User RPM') - introduced in ML 7.0 - tackles several RPM weaknesses:"
79 • novell (by richard(kc9foh) on 2006-11-14 13:30:19 GMT from United States)
That is great that you were able. But there are programs that I use that there is no port for. Like echo link, airmail, or winlink 2000 to name a few. If you know how to get these to work in Linux let me know! There are a few others. I like some pc games. They just work on windows(bummer that they don't make a port for linux yet). I don't like console game units(to me that went out with atari 2600). BZflag is one of my favorite games but unless the distro provides a commercial video driver it doesn't work too well. I am not a linux developer or power user. I like my desktop to just work with out having to jump through the hoops. Linux is good for browsing web and email(I would like to do more with it). There is not enough software for the applications that I like to use. Thank you. Oh by the way the above mentioned software doen't work in crossovers office.
80 • Novell/Suse and Microsoft (by spiritraveller on 2006-11-14 15:33:52 GMT from United States)
If Novell is "licensing" Microsoft's patents, then it is in violation of the GPL. ALL of the developers who contributed code to ANY of the software included in SUSE will have a copyright claim against Novell, because Novell would be engaged in the unauthorized distribution of their copyrighted works.
I hope Novell got some of Microsoft's lawyers in this deal, because it looks like they have a lot of litigation ahead of them. There are a lot of big companies (Red Hat, IBM, Sun just to name a few) who have contributed code to the Linux kernel and the programs distributed with it.
Expect to see those companies join the Free Software Foundation in fighting this. Microsoft and Novell have set this up to give the appearance that only Novell has the right to distribute the work of these other people and these other companies. It's a fancy way of trying to steal their work.
If Microsoft really wants to assert its patents against Linux, it will have to sue Linux users and distributors directly. But that would be a pretty big public relations gamble. They would be seen as more evil than any other company (which they are). They have to make that choice. They can't make a deal with one Linux company and kill the rest. It's all or nothing.
81 • Re: # 79 - Novel. (by Darek on 2006-11-14 15:42:36 GMT from Poland)
"There is not enough software for the applications that I like to use."
My experience is almost opposite. In Linux I find many windows software alternatives in many fields, where Windows offers only one or two solutions.
Richard, why don't you search the Internet harder and try to use software like PSK-Mail, CQiNet and Echolinux and also to find that airmail works in wine as stated by a user at nwp.ampr2.net/jnos/Airmail web site? Some version of Echolink by the way works to according to wine date base.
Also talking about Linux games as "I don't like console game units" is like a reading distrowatch from early 90ties. Just go to Linux Game Tome at happypenguin and see yourself. From console rogue like games to newest 3D FPS's, just make a choice and download, as games or game mods are often free. I play Enemy Territory, UT 2004, Savage, Alien Swarm and Tibia myself when have time. Let's go online and Log On man. Hurry. Desktop Linux is here and now!! :)
82 • #81 (by ray carter at 2006-11-14 16:06:36 GMT from United States)
There are indeed a number of things available on MS that just are not there for Linux. I'll point to two examples:
1) Quicken file OUTPUT. Last I checked one commercial Linux product was promising this but I've still not seen it. Fact of life - most accountants still use Quicken on MS and if you can't supply them with quicken files to input, you're SOL.
2) a simple greeting card creation program. Not electronic greeting cards, but old fashioned printed ones. I've yet to find a program to do that and it's the only thing my wife complains about.
There are obviously other niche products like doctor's office scheduling and billing, orthodontia software, etc.
83 • RE: 78 -> OK, here you go (by johncoom on 2006-11-14 16:26:10 GMT from Australia)
Next time you do a DistroWatch competition and later give the answers
perhaps it would be better to quote the source of what "you deem" to be
the correct answers FIRST when you give the answers and not have
people question or dispute you.
I know this is an easy thing to say in retrospect ? may be next time ah ?
BTW: as an ex-MDK user since 6.0 10.1 (now PCLinuxOS)
I actually thought urpm became installed "by default" at 7.2 ?
Are you sure that it was not just introduced at 7.0 BUT only in
Cooker - yes I know your source does not say that ! but this
sort of thing was (still is) common practice ? I could be wrong ?
Any how its all water under the bridge now - John
84 • RE: 73 • Fedora review by Jem Matzan, I disagree. (by Béranger on 2006-11-14 16:38:37 GMT from Romania)
At first, I was partly in disagreement with Jem's review, when I have mentioned it on my blog.
After a few more days (six) and a FC6 install, I tend to believe that Jem was mostly right in his conclusions, although bringing Ubuntu in the discussion was a mistake.
So: What If Jem Was Mostly Right On FC6? http://beranger.org/index.php?article=1922
85 • #24 Novell & Microsoft (by Matthias on 2006-11-14 17:25:07 GMT from United States)
Right on, Eric! I am glad to see someone else defend SuSe.
Listening to the whining about this deal, it's obvious that most of those complainng have not understood (or even read) the detail of the Microsoft/Novell announcement. The purpose of Linux, in their minds, is to conduct a crusade against Microsoft. Linux is not a tool for computer users, but a milestone on the way to a perfect society with free software, love, and beer.
These elements are an embarrassment to the pragmatic members of the Linux world, and a huge turn-off to Windows users who are curious about Linux, but don't want to feel like they have to join a Star Trek convention, in order to give it a try.
Anyone who writes software is free to choose the license under which they want to distribute it. And these choices must be respected by all. There is nothing in the Novell/Microsoft deal that suggests to me that Novell violated the GPL or any other license. So long as Novell continues to contribute to the Open Source community and to respect its licenses, they in turn deserve the respect of that community. And they should be free to do whatever else they want to do, in order to enhance their commercial viability. Contracting with Microsoft included.
86 • Paldo's UPKG? (by PePa on 2006-11-14 21:21:44 GMT from Canada)
So this UPKG system requires Mono?? That doesn't sound like the Arch way at all.
87 • Drivers (by rec9140 on 2006-11-14 22:02:20 GMT from United States)
Linux has a HUGE OPPORTUNITY to GAIN on the DESKTOP with the whole vista mess. What 7 versions and costs to $300 or more!
First, binary drivers.... WHO CARES. Do they cost anything? No! Whats the issue..... Developers want the source code to these drivers? Get a grip. Thats like asking AMD for the mask for the silicon to create CPU's or even now ATI's GPU's. Not going to happen, ever, period, move on.
Now to throw it right back at the nVidia & ATI/AMD what is the problem with providing the specifications on how to interface to your GPU products? ? ? ? Just like the CPU the opcodes and registers etc. to these GPU & chipsets have to be made available to some one to allow them to write drivers for what ever OS the cards are sold for be it Linux or something else. If AMD and intel with held the opcodes to the x86 CPU where would we be ? ? No one but AMD & intel and possibly some other licensee could write software since no one would have the opcodes to write the software or even create compilers... So whats the problem with providing this information to any takers? ? ? Let me guess you want NDA's! Oh, puhlease.... ATI knows just as much about nVidias chipsets and GPU as vice versa, your precisous "secrets" are not being traded by developers for the most part, probaly 90-95% of its "insiders" in the companies. So there is no need for that play. So now what is the holdup in realsing information on how to interface to these chipsets & GPU's? ? ? Motorola and National Semiconductor, and TI in the past routinely put out HUGE THICK books with all the specifications for their chips. I still have a shelf full of these for the old discrete logic and specilized chips like tuners etc.. I even have an AMD CPU spec book. No one is going to use your chips if this stuff is not documented some place, and it is, just cloaked away under some false sense of need of NDA. Time to move on
Second, the Cult of the Linux......
Give it up! Converting persons using another OS to Linux is not going to happen... when you hit them with "Nope, can play x format, thats not a "free" codec. Nope, can not play DVD's.... " They don't care and I don't care! They want to pop their DVD in and play it. Same here. I personally have zero use for the various DRM gestapo organizations out there, but Linux is cutting its own throat with this crap. Its time to move on past this, and fast, NOW!
January 2007 is coming up and the release of the next fubar'd OS from that company in Washington state is coming. The more they try to lock up the install process, copying etc. the MORE OPPORUTNITY the Linux community has. Lets not miss the boat, this time.
Now how to achieve this.......
There needs to a Linux Inc. and OFFICIAL LINUX OS Vx.y.z This is the base that starts it all and from there each distro can add what ever candy they like. That also means a default windows manager needs to be selected, and thats KDE. Does that mean its the ONLY one? NO! Want something else no problem, you can add that as an option, BUT the BASE INSTALL of Linux will start with KDE and then you modify it. Thats where all the various distros come into play... As I am sure all the gnome'tes or any other WM will come out of the wood work. KDE is the path of least resistance. Your "free" to choice what ever other WM in place of the default. Don't want to use the drivers from xyz, no problem, there again, theres your "free" to choice to use a stone age mode to operate in.
Software installation... Jane & Joe User do NOT give a hoot about what lanquage its written in be it C+, C++, C#, assembler, metawhiz, or even Klingon. They DONT CARE! What they want to do is download the software, and install it with ease. Not be presented with SCREENS and SCREENS of text that scroll by faster than even a computer could read it about this or that dependency etc.. Solve this and SOLVE IT NOW! This is another area hamstringing Linux use on the desktop. Does every piece of software install with ease on any OS? NO! OS W has just much problems as OS L and vice versa, but the Linux development community is not helping things. Joe & Jane User are not going to look at the code and make changes. That doesn't it should be closed source either, it doesn't matter to Jane/Joe User. You can make the source available for the Cult of the Linux to play with.
I WILL BE looking at Kubuntu and the Feisty Fawn release to take the place of Knoppix, and why ? ? Better support of my video cards, all nVidia.
I am also making a choice to no longer build computers that use any OS other than Linux. Thats going to eliminate most busniess, but no one is going to pay $300 MORE for the same PC they could purchase at xyz mart or xyz.com for $300 LESS, simply because of the OS Tax. Many balk at the $150 OS Tax now. (I spell it out right on a line.... OS $150.00 Don't like this cost... Contact....." )
So the opportunity is knocking and its time to open the door!
88 • RE: # 84 Fedora review by Jem Matzan, I disagree (by Darek on 2006-11-14 22:44:48 GMT from Poland)
Thanks for your review Beranger. It looks like FC6 is not perfect, like the rest of distributions :)
I usually install minimal system first, then upgrade it over the net. I never got into any dependency problems that way. Having up to date minimal system I go for additional software download, so I would not consider it a problem that some rpm's are in extra only.
I find Anaconda very clear and intuitive, and options remembered only after clicking "NEXT" rather logical (if you don't press "NEXT" then you mean to abandon changes, right?), but it is a question of balance and personal preferences. How many questions installer in non-expert mode should ask, etc.? Some people may expect just to put a CD and 15 minutes later to have a working, installed on hard drive OS without answering one question.
Looking at screens of "underwater DNA" I have to admit, that it looks not up to the standards. On the other hand, one of the first things I do in every distro after installing desktop environment is changing wallpaper, themes etc.. :)
The only real problem I see reading your review is suspend failure (FC5 suspends here nicely and gets back almost as fast as OSX on Powerbook) and not recognised modem on COM which is very strange, and never happened to me.
My Ubuntu experience was very similar to yours. I really got nervous spending two hours trying just to get X working with Radeon X700 and reading Ubuntu's forum full of similar complains.
I have a theory then, about Fedora. ;) As I did not use FC2 and FC4 and have no need for FC6 after more then half a year FC5 working great on my computers; also having a previous great experience with FC1 and FC3 I conclude, that every even number release is a bit broken :D
Now I remember why I prolonged life of my nicely working FC3. I remember some kernel problems people had with initial images of FC4. That's it!! Just don't install evil even numbers versions. I guess FC7 will be the real way to go. Maybe FC6 is like you have found "5.92 (FC6 Test3)" :D
89 • RE: 87 • Drivers (by Darek on 2006-11-14 23:30:36 GMT from Poland)
Nice, but who is going to be Bill Gates of Linux? Any candidates? Mr Richard Stallman will not be interested I think.
Your text is right maybe from the end users, Jane & Joe point of view, but it looks like Jane & Joe way is against Linux nature, which is Open, Free and for All. You just write that compromising (just a little) would do good to Linux. Maybe, but you have to ask yourself then compromise how much? Where is the line? No DRM? And why not? Jane & Joe want to listen to their Warner Idols "protected" by DRM . Then what next? Spying software in every Linux machine cause Jane & Joe want to use it and do not care about giving away their freedom?
That's not the way. You could just name all ready for Jane & Joe distros "Vista" and sell it in 7 versions for $300 or more.
If Jane & Joe don't care and do NOT give a hoot... it's their problem.
90 • 87 & 89 (by AC on 2006-11-15 00:11:12 GMT from United States)
The amount of compromise people are willing to make illsutrates an interesting phenomenon. A common assumption is that it is the Free Software zealots who hate Microsoft the most. Naturally, Microsoft represents so much of what we hate, that it's easy to think that. but we don't hate Microsoft so much that we're willing to give up our principles to beat them. that would be a pyrrhic victory at best. it seems to me that the pragmatic, reasonable, willing to compromise Open Source types hate microsoft a lot more. they'd kill their own firstborn to beat Microsoft and and encourage others to do the same saying "be realistic!"
91 • #85 SUSE/Novell (by spiritraveller on 2006-11-15 02:11:34 GMT from United States)
"Anyone who writes software is free to choose the license under which they want to distribute it. And these choices must be respected by all. There is nothing in the Novell/Microsoft deal that suggests to me that Novell violated the GPL or any other license."
The clause that users of SUSE and its developers will not be sued by Microsoft for patent violations is a patent licensing agreement. It is a violation of the GPL for SUSE to enter into a patent licensing agreement for any of the GPLed code it distributes. Thus, SUSE is in violation of the GPL as regards every single piece of GPLed software that it distributes.
Every single developer of software that is included in SUSE (except those working under hire for Novell/SUSE) now has a potential copyright infringement claim against the company.
92 • Jane and Joe (by JS on 2006-11-15 04:24:28 GMT from United States)
rec9140 (#87) makes some good points. The fact of the matter is either Jane and Joe use it, or they don't. If it doesn't do everything they expect from an OS (read Vista or OSX), then they will migrate towards those OS's even if it DOES cost them money, because most users are willing to pay for the convenience. Don't believe that statement? Look at Linux market share right now, and it's free!! Free isn't enough, it's gotta do what they expect, or they won't bother. Keep preaching only free, and Linux will slowly receed back to being primarily a hobby/server OS. If that's what you want, no problem, but if you want more market share, it's gotta do more than it does right now with only free software. Those are the painful facts...
93 • Linux Mint (by UZ64 on 2006-11-15 04:53:06 GMT from United States)
Anyone else find Linux Mint to be somewhat interesting? Ubuntu, plus a bunch of useful "restricted" codecs, minus the ugly poop brown. I downloaded it earlier, and from what I can tell, it's a pretty good distro. The blue version of Ubuntu's Gnome splash screen looked quite nice, as did the blue desktop and theme. My biggest problem is said right on its home page:
"Linux Mint doesn't necessarily use Gnome. For instance, when Linux Mint 1.0 was released KDE seemed a better option than Gnome. In version 2.0 it was the opposite."
This alone will keep me from using the distro. First, it was based on Kubuntu using KDE as its desktop environment (which I also tried out)... now, it's based on Ubuntu, using Gnome as its environment. And according to this quote, it could (and probably will) change again at any time. It's like these guys can't make up their mind... it's not like between versions 1 and 2 of the distro KDE and Gnome went through any breakthrough changes that made one infinitely better than the other anyway. Why not just stick with one desktop environment, and make it as good as possible?
Either way... this seems like a distro with potential, but a serious flaw that just kills it. Also, it would be nice if there would be an "Alternate" (text-based) installer as well... not everyone likes to boot into a full fledged desktop environment just to install. Though, in my case, the live CD did very well in demonstrating how the distro works... I would just most likely never install from such a disc, when there's (ironically) Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu that all have fast, low-memory-usage text-based installers.
Otherwise... it's an interesting distro, it just has two fatal flaws in my opinion.
94 • 92 market share (by AC on 2006-11-15 06:12:37 GMT from United States)
When discussing Joe and Jane, how many of them have even heard of "Linux" or "GNU/Linux"? How many know what an "operating system" is? How many know GNU/Linux can be had free of charge? How many know where to find CD images for download? How many know the difference between burning and image and burning a data CD? How many have ever installed an OS? And how many know how to find a local LUG or that such things exist? Spending some time doing advocacy and talking to people outside of the FLOSS community reveals that market share is about a lot more than cost or quality.
And when we get to the issue dearest to my heart, software freedom, you'll find even more who don't know, don't care, never thought about it. posts like yours which obscure the issues of cost and freedom don't help.
95 • Ubuntu vs. Fedora vs. etc..... (by codebreaker on 2006-11-15 06:23:46 GMT from United States)
They can all be good in the hands of a person who knows what to do with them. However, there always will be the question WHICH ONE IS THE BEST AND WHY? So my take on it is - why don't all these open source developers make one good freaking distro that would rock, fast, stable and well supported and rock uncle Bill's world for what is worth.
96 • 95 (by AC on 2006-11-15 10:03:25 GMT from United States)
"why don't all these open source developers make one good freaking distro that would rock, fast, stable and well supported and rock uncle Bill's world for what is worth"
Was that a rhetorical question?
First, building a distro, writing drivers, writing applications, writing documentation, and providing support involve different skillsets
Second, different distros have different motivations. Red Hat is in the business of selling support contracts for RHEL and Fedora Core helps them with development and the goodwill of the community. Canonical seems to want to sell support, but also has plans for the proprietary Launchpad. Novell wants to take marketshare from Red Hat. TheDebian Project and Gentoo aren't interested in profit, but have distinct design philosophies. Pat has another distinct design philosophy and just wants to make enough from Slackware to pay his builds and support his coding.
Third, as indicated by the remarks concerning design philosophy and as evidenced by the variety of preferences people have in distros, e.g. some swear by Slackware and find Debian needlessly complicated and Red Hat limiting and too intent on handholding, while others love Debian and find Red Hat too market driven and Slackware too impoverished. It's good they have choices.
Diversity is one of the beauties of GNU/Linux. Why should we embrace something monolithic just for market share? Even if that would work?
97 • Re 81 (by Reiver on 2006-11-15 13:58:45 GMT from United Kingdom)
In the UK, quicken isn't so much of an issue, Sage is, although at the end of the day, neither work well (if at all) with WINE.
98 • Good life without binary drivers (by debianista on 2006-11-15 14:41:23 GMT from Germany)
Listening to people it almost seems like you NEED the binary drivers to get the 3D desktop in GNU/Linux. But this is not true at all.
I've got an old HP laptop (933MHz Pentium III CPU, 384MB RAM) with on-board Intel i830M chipset, and AIGLX + Compiz (with XFCE) works beautifully on that hardware under Debian Etch. And setting it all up was an easy five-minute job following this tutorial: http://wizah.blogspot.com/2006/10/debian-how-to-aiglx-compiz.html
My friend uses several GNU/Linux distros on a computer that has NVIDIA graphics card and she needs to recompile the NVIDIA driver every time she upgrades the kernel. For this purpose she needs to install the kernel sources and some other stuff -- this seems to change from one distro to another. And sometimes the generic NVIDIA installer mysteriously fails to do its job and she needs to search for some distro-specific ways to install the NVIDIA driver. Things are much easier with my old HP laptop because X.org supports the on-board Intel graphics controller natively.
If you know that you're going to use GNU/Linux, please do yourself a favour and only buy hardware that is properly supported under GNU/Linux with open source drivers. : )
99 • 94 (by rec9140 on 2006-11-15 14:41:43 GMT from United States)
Jane/Joe DONT CARE about LUGS, or any of that, or "freedom." They want to pick up the phone or go to a web site and get help. Which web site support is another area Linux needs to get under control. The viscious attacks and curt answers of RTFM etc. on newsgroups, lists, web forums and etc. is NOT going to CUT IT!
Cost IS a factor.... $300 for an OS? I don't think so. Right now a certain company does every thing it can to HIDE the cost of the OS in the cost of a PC from companies and they try it with me too. I won't co-operate so I don't get any of the OEM perks. No problem, I don't need the headaches. I purchase a reatil OS CD and include it with the machine. I also break it out right on the invoice. "YOUR OS TAX ......$150..Contact .... for info on this cost." Don't want to pay that cost, bring me an AUTHENTIC CD and COA and KEY and I will install it, sign my waiver that says your provided VALID CD/KEY/COA, and save the $150.
Jane/Joe are WILLING to PAY for the OS upto about $100 with about $50-80 being close to the ideal cost. Once they pay this cost, if they install it on 1,2, 3, 5, or 100 computers to them they paid for it and they should be able to install it. I agree 100%. If purchased a valid key and install to 1, 2 or more computers, oh well.
The ability to go to linuxupdates.com like another OS and get updates and drivers to the OS is another missing component. Thats why we NEED to have Linux Inc. with OFFICIAL Linux Vx.y.z Unfortunately this will NEVER happen as their are just to many egos and "philosphies" getting in the way.... this deabte on drivers, Fedora, Debian and the browser, etc......
This bickering is KILLING LINUX and it seems to be only getting worse. Some one needs to smack these people around and get them to start playing nice with each other.
Downloading and burning the OS, not for the Jane/Joe crowd, they want a box and CD, and thats where Linux Inc. comes into play as well. Heres your box and CD.... Does this preclude the DL of ISO's etc., NO. The other 95% can DL and ISO and burn it.
Plain and simple Apple switched CPU chips for more than just the public stated issues with IBM, is part of the reason, YES, its NOT THE ONLY PART OR THE MAJOR ONE.. I think it should be pretty clear where things are headed with at least the tacit approval and development of the ability to boot OS W.
The much needed convergence of computing into ONE system is coming, is it going be this year or 2007, NO. Probably in the next 5 years were going to be there. Finally you go to the store or download ONE software and install it on your computer be it an Apple, Dell, or self built. What OS is this going to be? ? ? Well its NOT going to be OS W! Is it going to be OS X? Not exactly. Is it going to be Linux, not exactly. A blend of OS X and Linux is most likely where this convergence will happen and OS W will be out! Getting the Linux camp in line and ready for this is key and it needs to happen NOW! Or we miss the boat again...
Finally this split into wintel, linux, apple will be resolved and we can get down to writiing software, drivers etc. for ONE architecture, and one with out a certain Washington state company.
I don't see the issue if nVidia and ATI release drivers be it binary, so be it. No drivers would be better? That may be OK to the zealots and Cult of Linux, but thats not going to get Jane/Joe to convert. Should ATI/AMD & nVidia release the specs so that ANY ONE can develop a driver, YES! BUT your beating a dead horse to think that they are going to release *their* software driver source. Your going to have to write your own from the register and command specs. Bullying them for this is not going to work, it has not worked to date, so why continue in this vain. Its time to have a "sit down" with these people and have a rational business discussion to get the information needed under terms that every one live with.
Linux is ready for the big show, but its doing everything it can to ham string and kill it self.
100 • 98 (by AC on 2006-11-15 16:49:14 GMT from United States)
Hear hear! I've suggested elsewhere the Radeon 9250 chipset for supporting 3d acceleration with open source drivers
101 • 99 (by AC on 2006-11-15 16:54:41 GMT from United States)
It's a shame we can't have someone like you as self-appointed dictator to get these egos in line and to decide what issues matter and to brush aside differences in design philosophy.
102 • Re: # 99 (by linbetwin on 2006-11-15 20:25:35 GMT from Romania)
You really don't know anything about Linux, do you? Or any other OS, for that matter. Or the way the world goes round. Dude, what have you been smoking? You speak right out of the man pages of Revelation. Hold your penguins!
103 • 96-95 (by macfreak on 2006-11-15 20:33:49 GMT from United States)
Hey AC I guess you missed my point. All I wanted to say is that - there are many good distro's but they all lack features that others do and so on and so forth. Furthermore, I've run about over a 100 different distro's and none of them can please my needs. Yet Apple and Microsoft do. So what is the answer that Linux has to offer to that. Maybe Ubuntu and its clones. Probably right but not quite on target. Ubuntu is not optimized at all. Windows boots faster than it. Hence, I want to see Linux'ses answer to that problem.
P.S. My goal is to push Linux forward, but all these silly wars between are def no helping.
104 • Microsoft and Linux (by Jerry Basham on 2006-11-15 21:12:20 GMT from United States)
Dissapointing to see a Linux concern backslapping with the corporation that has repeatedly used strongarm tactics to gain its dominance (as if this is anything more benevolent than a marketing strategy, long range, by Microsoft, to water down the Linux philosophy).
Shame! Novell will see no more of my dollars (I've purchased SuSE right from the beginning).
105 • Whats more christian about Ubuntu Christian edition? (by gnobuddy on 2006-11-15 21:30:06 GMT from United States)
Let's review: Ubuntu means "humanity to others", or "my humanity depends on yours". The software is Free, and also free - in fact, Canonical will actually spend their own money to ship you free CD's. And Ubuntu is internationally developed and able to "speak" many languages, so that in a way it unifies humans all over the world.
In short, Ubuntu is, in philosophy and in deed, already as "christian" as anything can be. And Ubuntu is a lot more "christian" than those supposed "Christians" who support Bush and his genocidal "war" in Iraq.
So why the heck would anybody create an Ubuntu "Christian edition"? In separating themselves from the rest of humanity, have they not actually made their distribution less "christian" than Ubuntu already is?
Bernard Shaw made the comment that the last true christian died on the cross. Sometimes I think he was right.
106 • 94 (by JS on 2006-11-16 00:32:57 GMT from United States)
To answer your reply, very few of the Joe and Jane's can answer "yes" to your list of questions, and of those that can, they mostly don't care to take up the hobby, because you STILL need to be part hobbiest to run most Linux distro's effectively. I give them an Ubuntu or SuSe or (put favorite distro here) CD and they take it home then ask me later why it won't play MP3's, or DVD's, or flash 9 enabled websites, or properly open their office document. etc, etc, etc. The list is different for every distro, but there's always a list it seems. It IS about quality and what the OS can do without them constantly having to fiddle with it!
Regarding software freedom, you just said there are those who "you'll find even more who don't know, don't care, never thought about it". Well what does it take to make them care? Maybe most never will, maybe some will, but it's not easy to make any of them care if the OS doesn't do what Vista or OSX does. I don't know, maybe I'm just frustrated from trying to get friends and family to try different flavors of Linux, only to spend a bunch of time tweaking it to make it do what they want, then later just reinstalling Windows because they just don't want to mess with learning something new or don't like the fact it won't do everything they want easily. Perhaps Linux is better suited for the embedded/server/business/education/hobby market, and leave the Joe and Jane desktop to the other guys.
107 • SUSE's page hit ranking are plummiting!! (by Eric on 2006-11-16 01:37:01 GMT from Canada)
lol, have any of u noticed how substancial the decrease is of SUSE's page hit rankings?? before the announcement of the M$ aggreement the # was like 2010, and at the moment its at 1968!!, seriously had an impact already and we can see SUSE's followers have already been abandoning it.
108 • No subject (by lmf on 2006-11-16 03:14:28 GMT from United States)
90% of computer users could care less about the OS. They use what's in front of them. Windows is on almost every computer sold in the US.
It took my mom all of 20 seconds to do basic things on Ubuntu, and she loved the design. (I'm weird, frankly I think Ubuntu is ugly, and use it in spite of the looks.)
Microsoft's market share has nothing to do with people choosing Windows. They don't care. Just look at all the people still using Windows 2000, and hey, they don't even think about it.
All the problems with Linux are due to choices by proprietary software makers. If all software were available for every OS, Linux would win hands down.
My opinion is that Linux users should not give any consideration to market share. The community is large enough that I can do what I need. There's already a large market share going to proprietary software, what sense would it make for Linux to go proprietary? Furthermore, with dual booting and virtualization, the idea of a single OS is outdated anyway. I know people doing most things in Windows, but internet commerce and things requiring security in Linux only.
If Linux + restrictions = market share, I'd rather have 0.001% of the market because Linux + restrictions doesn't make sense. If you like Windows, by all means, use Windows. I like freedom. (It's pretty important to my line of work.)
109 • Re: Whats more christian about Ubuntu Christian edition? (by Ariszló on 2006-11-16 07:04:52 GMT from Hungary)
It comes with Bible software which is handy for Christians.
110 • 106 (by AC on 2006-11-16 10:38:56 GMT from United States)
Excellent that you help others with GNU/Linux. My experience has been more positive, winning many converts, setting them up with a Debian system, providing a script to add non-free repos and install naught stuff after explaining why it's not there by default, and leaving a cheat sheet of basic commands and some links for finding documentation. I seldom get complaints or even support calls.
I never denied cost or quality were issues. I said they weren't the only issues. Also, i would say that supporting proprietary formats, protocols, and hardware is a "quality" issue, per se, though that doesn't mean it isn't bothersome to people.
Incidentally, last time I installed Windows, I couldn't view pdf files of flash websites or office documents out of the box either. And i didn't have the option of just writing a script to get those things automatically.
111 • Novell/SUSE/Microsoft...And what if? (sequel to #75) (by Moscowtime on 2006-11-16 11:30:03 GMT from Indonesia)
What if the things are upside down from what we percieve?
What if MS Vista is in such bad shape that M$ is desperately looking for possible replacements?
Then everything falls in place: failed negotiation with RedHat, opening of a huge "port 25" bulletin board, and finally, finding a company with a good distro which can be quickly made compatible with M$ background. Even some RedHat users will be (probably) indemnified...
The main thing to keep in mind - from now on M$ openly supports one (I believe more will come) of the Linux distros - the fact unthinkable even 1-2 years ago.
And let no one be mistaken - there is a violent fight inside Microsoft, invisible from outside, and the outcome of which will manifest itself within the next 1-2 years.
In the meantime, people, work hard and perfect your distros - then we will prevail !!!
112 • 108 market share (by AC on 2006-11-16 11:42:09 GMT from United States)
I heartily agree about seeing market share as the be all and end all. Having sufficient market share to further development is a must. Having sufficient market share to encourage application writers, websites, and hardware vendors to consider us is definitely a plus. Beyond that, I don't really care.
Yet, I do advocacy and win converts. Why? Because some people would prefer to buy a refurbished computer with GNU/Linux on it rather than buy a new one. Because some people are tired of adware and viruses. Because some people are curious. And because some people, when they hear about software freedom and related issues of privacy and monopolies take an interest. And I want to help those people.
But other people just want Windows, for gaming, for some specific application, or whatever. And that's fine. I'll even bring over Knoppix and help them recover their data when a virus makes their system unbootable, though I'll leave fixing the system or reinstalling Windows in their hands. they know they have options, but if they aren't interested, so be it.
113 • Samba/Novell/Suse/Microsoft (by Anonymous on 2006-11-16 16:47:23 GMT from United States)
Please read this:
114 • Re: SUSE's page hit ranking are plummiting!! (by Anonymous on 2006-11-17 00:05:33 GMT from Germany)
> before the announcement of the M$ aggreement the # was like 2010, and at the moment its at 1968!!, seriously had an impact already and we can see SUSE's followers have already been abandoning it.
Don't draw silly conclusions: your "1968" number is for a 6 months period, but how can the recent announcement pull that value down if the current "last 7 days" value is higher (>2000)?
Soon openSUSE will have a release when the Fedora/Ubuntu releases are almost forgotten/over one month back - then you will see the openSUSE number jump high(er).
115 • 108, Market Share (by spiritraveller on 2006-11-17 00:37:14 GMT from United States)
"My opinion is that Linux users should not give any consideration to market share. The community is large enough that I can do what I need. There's already a large market share going to proprietary software, what sense would it make for Linux to go proprietary?"
Thank you lmf, for bringing some common sense into the discourse.
As long as there are enough people in the community and enough people interested in developing free software, I don't care if the market share goes any higher.
I AM a hobbyist. I like being a hobbyist. And I don't care if Linux doesn't become the new Microsoft. I don't care if everyone in the world (including "Joe and Jane") has never heard of Linux.
I like that Linux is Free (not just free). I like that I know what my computer is doing. I like knowing that it doesn't "phone home" to let some software vendor know how I am using its software.
The whole point of Free software is that I don't put proprietary software on my machine. If I need to change something, fix it for my own needs, I can. The point is not to put blobs on my machine that do who knows what, and deny me the freedom of controlling MY computer.
If proprietary software companies someday wake up and join the new paradigm, that will be great. If they don't, that's okay too.
If you want proprietary software on your Linux machine, go ahead. But don't expect everyone in the Linux community to jump up and go "Aha! If only we were using proprietary software instead of open source that would fix everything!"
That idea misses the point.
116 • Thanks AC, spiritraveller, all... (by JS on 2006-11-17 01:48:56 GMT from United States)
I feel a bit revitalized and am ready to expend some more effort helping others with Linux again. It's just been a frustrating couple of weeks as a couple people I thought were really starting to take hold and gain an understanding of Linux and what it is about were asking me to reinstall Windows again because they were just too frustrated after trying to do some things on their own and failing, so I was feeling a bit defeated about it all. I have tried to help, and some of my friends have become real Linux fans, it's just like anything (cars, houses, etc) not one size fits all, and even though I'm a big Linux supporter, I've got to remember some people just don't want to be bothered. I probably shouldn't have posted while being in a funk about it all, but sometimes you just got to get it off your chest!
BTW, I've played with some of the Vista beta's and RC's and it is a decent enough operating system, but the hardware requirements are very steep. I see this being a stumbling block for many computer users as they aren't willing to spend the $$$ needed to pay the hardware (and software) tax needed to do the upgrade. Those are the one's that I think will be prime to be converted to Linux as MS starts to pull the plug on Win2K and XP.
Just gotta keep plugging away...
117 • 116 (by AC on 2006-11-17 02:06:13 GMT from United States)
You're very welcome and I totally understand the funk we can all get in when we love something and want to share it with others and find ourselves rebuffed. For me the key has been to remind myself that my goal is to educate and to provide options people may not have known about. If they reject those options, I've still done my part by making choices available. Otherwise, you'll just rip your hair out when people pick sometimes the silliest differences for preferring Windows. (And sometimes good reasons, like if they are into games or use tools for online stock trades available only for Windows).
118 • re 85 (by Anonymous on 2006-11-17 04:54:20 GMT from Germany)
re 85: "Listening to the whining about this deal, it's obvious that most of those complainng have not understood (or even read) the detail of the Microsoft/Novell announcement."
Obviously true, seeing as how "the detail of the deal" is not available for the public to read. Eben Moglen did read it, and he's still "whining". I agree that GNU/Linux is all about diversity, and I've no problem with proprietary software makers catering to Linux users. But remember that it's radical visionaries like Richard Stallman who made GNU/Linux possible. I'm certainly no hacker-geek, and all I can say is this: the only reason I _switched_ to Linux was precicely the political overtones of the GPL. If Linux was simply a proprietary OS based on a UNIX clone (even if given away for free), I'd can't see why I wouldn't be running Windows today, and I think there are a lot of people like me.
Running open source software means that _I_ control my computer. That's not only a technical question. It's also a political one.
It's understandable that people get concerned when one of the champions of open software strikes a shady deal like this, and nobody comes clear with what this "we won't sue for patent infringement"-nonsense really means (although I agree that gratuitous MS-bashing remains silly, even in this debate).
Just one more thing: Ubuntu installing proprietary components out of the box. Sure. Another reason why I can reccomend Ubuntu to people who are curious about Linux. But shouldn't the end user at least be clicking some "I accept this licence"-button at some point? Or would that break the Ubuntu illusion of running a free system? I know I need to do this to download the firmware needed to make my wireless work, firmware that Ubuntu happily installs without telling me. In the short run, I see why it's necessary to use licenced stuff, but I do think it's like peeing in your pants to stay warm. The least we can do is fight to make possible a normally working OS with no need for proprietary components (ie. avoid non-free solutions whenever possible). I'm less concerned about graphics (a luxury, no?) than stuff like wireless, dvd and mp3 codecs, but maybe that's just me.
As modern computer users, we have less and less _need_ for the big corporations and their proprietary trash. The times are (a-)changing. They need us, now. Let's kick'em in the nuts! (Thanks for reading my entire rant :)
119 • Could perhaps DistroWatch do the job ? (by vdb on 2006-11-17 10:38:02 GMT from Italy)
I found this article INCREDIBLY interesting and I just started wondering if Ladislav/DistroWatch could do the job.
If not, is there anybody out there with enough "business courage" to start doing such thing ?
Please read the article here
I know it's a bit long, but it should only take you 5 minutes; it's time well spent.
120 • Symphony OS dead? (by Tiny Elvis on 2006-11-17 16:55:29 GMT from United States)
Symphonyos.com seems to have vanished, the site is now "parked" - guess they ran short of funds once again, for the last time? The site is now down, even though they just had a release recently. Guess Jason Spisak killed it just like he did with everything else he touched, eh?
Let's not forget how he dragged Lycoris down, took things from that company, went over to "element" and killed that company too before he started in on symphony.
Sad for Linux.
121 • RE: 67 • Debian installer releases (by peace-hippie on 2006-11-17 17:57:53 GMT from Finland)
"Why aren't Debian installer releases announced on the Distrowatch main page? Do they not count as development releases as much as Ubuntu development releases do?"
Very good questions. There is currently a RedHat beta release announced on the DistroWatch main page. And Ubuntu & Kubuntu & Xubuntu & Edubuntu get every monthly development snapshot of their package archives advertised on the main page -- in addition to betas and RCs.
Debian doesn't release any alphas or betas, or even release candidates. (There are weekly snapshots of the "testing" archive always available, though.) Debian makes the final release of Etch "when it's ready." But the final version of the Debian-Installer won't be released separately, it will be included in the Etch release. So, in a way, a Debian system installed with the RC version of the Debian-Installer *is* also a release candidate for Etch.
So would it be too much asked to announce the Debian-Installer release candidates (there is at least one more Installer RC planned before the final Etch release) on the main page? Especially when Debian developers have just asked users "to begin more extensive testing of Etch as a system."
(Click the above link and read the post if you want to find out what the code name for the Etch+1 release will be. ;-))
Debian-Installer RC1 is available for download here:
122 • RE: 121 RE: 67 (by ladislav on 2006-11-17 22:48:50 GMT from Taiwan)
No, new installer releases are not announced on DistroWatch. I can see your point why you believe that I should make an exception with Debian, but once I do that, there will be people asking me to publish all new development and stable releases of Anaconda, SUSE installer, Mandriva installer and any of the hundreds of other installation programs that exist.
The Debian project could easily publish their installer RC announcements as Debian RC announcement, in which case I'd be happy to publish them on DistroWatch. If you'd like that, please email Debian and see if you can convince them about changing their installer announcement style and content.
123 • RE # 114 (by Eric on 2006-11-18 22:10:07 GMT from Canada)
Well if u look at your lovely last 7 days, when u stated it as above 2000... that # now is at 1866, so as I can see there IS a significant drop in user interest and abandonment is in progress of the openSUSE distro;) Iintrestingly, linux Mint has skyrocketed to #2 only 200 behind Ubuntu, which is quite impressive for the past 7 day stat. Ive been watchin those stats everyday constantly for the past year and a half, muliple times a day, when I notice such an insane drop in the 6 month group, the 7 days stat MUST be quite devastating;) I feel sorry for SUSE even tho im an Arch user, mainly because I was introduced to GNU/Linux with SUSE, and started out on SUSE 9.3.
124 • Why care for market share? (by Herman on 2006-11-18 23:29:19 GMT from Europe)
As much as I, to be quite frank, hate MS' guts (well they did openly threaten me, as a non-Suse Linux user, didn't they), I could see no reason why "Linux" should care for market share [i]as a goal[/i]. All a good distro has to try to achieve is be a nice composition of great, well-working software. Concentrate on that, and good stuff happens. Can all the prophets that proclaim how, with the help of principle compromise, "Linux" can "beat" MS, please ask some real developers and programmers why they're doing what they're doing (and it sure ain't for bringing MS down). Every second wasted on talking how badly MS sucks, is a second lost for enjoying and improving good software.
I've been reading some comments to the FC vs. Buntu discussion, well if all the "please include the blobs" stuff is only meant to increase the user base, as a distro baker you'd pretty much forsake your own principles.
Sure, it's nice to think of the short term and be pragmatic, but in the long term sometimes it's good to have some real principles.
I'm not going into the discussion, all I'd like to say is that while it's OK to be harsh on, say, FC6, it's just asking for trouble to then compare it unfavourably to another, specific distro (in this case, Ubuntu). No matter who's right or wrong, that's just a little childish.
Disclaimer: yours truly is FC5 user, no blobs, no 3D, quite happy though.
125 • Linux is NOT about market share and popularity (by Anonymous on 2006-11-19 00:54:30 GMT from Poland)
To anyone who did not notice - Linux is GNU/Linux no matter Jane & Joe like it, know it or not! GNU/Linux means we are talking about Freedom (don't believe me, read some GNU/Linux history) not just a next operating system. It has nothing to do with market share, popularity etc.. Of course it would be nice to see Jane & Joe use it (for their own good), but that is not the point. The point and reason of GNU/Linux is Freedom. Freedom to use, share, modify and cooperate which is much more important then listening music in some strange, "who knows what's in it?", secret formats and playing stupid DVD's that the same company you buy it from makes hard for you to watch.
Without that Freedom there is no GNU/Linux. Without Freedom there would be operating system with the same restrictions as Windows. OS that soon would prohibit you to copy files, prevent you to read documents more then x times, to listen more then x time to a song from CD you bought etc.. That's what Windows users are going to face in near future.
Now, some people will write that "Freedom talk" is idealistic and not practical at all. Well, I assume some of you use free operating system called shortly "Linux". Guess what, you use operating system that came from that idealism. Very practical OS as for unpractical idealism, you can't deny that.
126 • Re: Linux is GNU/Linux (by Ariszló on 2006-11-19 06:15:26 GMT from Hungary)
"Linux is GNU/Linux no matter Jane & Joe like it, know it or not!"
It is a fact that RMS and people who agree with him want to replace the name of Linux with GNU/Linux but it is a wrong conclusion that their desire is a fact. No, Linux is not GNU/Linux.
127 • No subject (by AC on 2006-11-19 07:43:04 GMT from United States)
125 "Linux is GNU/Linux no matter Jane & Joe like it, know it or not!"
127 "It is a fact that RMS and people who agree with him want to replace the name of Linux with GNU/Linux but it is a wrong conclusion that their desire is a fact. No, Linux is not GNU/Linux."
Thus all depends on where the "is" in "Linux is GNU/Linux" is an abberviation for "is also called" (which is indisputable) or "is properly called" (which is endlessly debatable).
And the point about emphasizing Freedom is a sound reason for calling the system "GNU/Linux." And it is consistent with that point that whether "Jane and Joe" know it or not, the system also has a name which emphasizes the Freedom aspect. Claims as to which is "proper" needn't arise in making that point.
128 • #127 (by Synergy6 on 2006-11-19 14:44:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
Err, no. Linux has a name. If it's Linux (i.e., not GNU/Linux), then it's called "Linux". You might want to call it GNU/Linux, or NiceSoftware/Linux, or CoolUsers/Linux, or UseMePlease/Linux, but that's irrelevant. If it has a name, stick with it. The "proper" name, which you deem irrelevant, is actually the only name that matters.
I agree with much of what the FSF comes up with, but it does seem like opportunism to promote tagging their own name onto something which has eclipsed their achievements.
I'll end this with a quote from the most important person involved (take a guess) : "Well, I think it's justified, but it's justified if you actually make a GNU distribution of Linux ... the same way that I think that "Red Hat Linux" is fine, or "SuSE Linux" or "Debian Linux," because if you actually make your own distribution of Linux, you get to name the thing, but calling Linux in general "GNU Linux" I think is just ridiculous."
129 • 128 (by AC on 2006-11-19 16:01:35 GMT from United States)
First off, I didn't say that the proper name was irrelevant only that it was irrelevant to the point being made.
Second, in saying that, I was deliberately being diplomatic in hopes of not re-igniting an endless debate, but instead showing that the earlier poster's remarks needn't ignite a flame war.
Third, it is indisputable that "Linux" is the name of the kernel and of course no one should attempt to rename it. (Just as it is equally true that if one is using "operating system" in the sense that is roughly synonymous with "kernel", then "Linux" is the name of the OS.) But it is disingenuous to use the clarity of those points then slide into the unclear area of what we ought to call as assemblade of software that includes the Linux kernel.
Fourth, many things have more than one name. There is strong precedent and support for calling the assemblage of software "Linux" or for calling it "GNU/Linux". More people say "Linux", but we are not limited to what the majority calls it when as substantial minority have a different usage.
Fifth, while Torvalds naturally has the moral right to decide what his creation (the Linux kernel) should be called, his position on entire systems that include his creation is not the final authority.
Sixth, "the most important person involved" obviously depends on one's criteria for assessing importance. And one may also ask, "involved in what?" Kernel development? The Free Software movement?
Seventh, Torvalds reference to "Linux in general" is ambiguous and the ambiguity is compounded by his comparing "GNU Linux" (sic) to "Red Hat Linux", as if "GNU" were being called the creator of Linux. His remark is really a non sequitur and a red herring.
Eight, it is interesting that the FSF is accused of "opportunism" for the name "GNU" (it isn't "Stallmanix") but someone who wants his own name ("Linux"/"Linus") attached to things he did not produce and which came before him isn't even questioned.
130 • Linguistics (by Herman on 2006-11-19 20:16:48 GMT from Europe)
A well-known fact among linguists is that it's usually not an elite that decides what something will be called. Language is essentially vulgar (in the neutral sense of the word) and democratic (in the bad sense, i.e. it doesn't take the minority's point of view into account).
Therefore, "GNU/Linux" vs. "Linux" discussions are fundamentally POINTLESS. All the current minority (=the proponents of "GNU/Linux") can do is to hang on to the name and just use it, hoping that it will be picked up in the end by the majority.
The evolutionary fact in language that short forms usually beat long forms is a little problem for "GNU/Linux", in fact. Also, the strict definition, or the essential quality, of something is rarely tightly related to (the etymology of) the name we give it. For example, in German the word for "knife" is "Messer", which etymologically meant "meat". Strange, right? That's because it's the first half of an original word for "meat knife" which lost its second half. Happens all the time.
@AC, I thought Linus wanted to call his kernel "Freax" originally, and that Linux was invented by someone else. Most people wouldn't want their kernel to freak out, would they. ;)
131 • 130 (by AC on 2006-11-19 20:58:23 GMT from United States)
You are correct of course about elites, although in technical fields, the vulgarization is less pronounced.
Proponents of "GNU/Linux" can not only hang onto the use, but argue for the merits as part of their persuasion, but of course widespread usage will depend on majority acceptance (a tautology). If Red Hat rather than Debian had chosen to use "GNU/Linux", the media attention might have made things different. but Debian doesn't get the same coverage, of course. Naming a whole for a part, synechdoche (often mistakenly called metonymy) is also a common trend in linguistics, agreed.
That doesn't mean Debian will or should ever change their name in acknowledgement of the majority. And as long as Debian is a thriving project, the name "GNU/Linux" will remain in circulation. The worst case scenario: those who call the system GNU/Linux become like those who announced every ten years that in fact, the decade begins on years ending in 1. And they're right. But common usage prevails in popular consciousness.
You are correct as well about Freax. But then, Linus also made statements early on that Linux was just a kernel and that that doesn't get one very far.
132 • GNU as a meta-OS (by Ariszló on 2006-11-19 21:04:54 GMT from Hungary)
Back in 1991 when Linus first released his OS comprising of his own kernel and some GNU userland, GNU had not yet defined itself as a meta-OS which could use any kernel. At that time GNU defined itself as an OS that would become complete with the release of GNU's own kernel called the HURD.
It was Linus Torvalds who put together an OS with a working kernel in 1991. It is true that he used some GNU tools in his OS but again it was he who put together the OS. A cook who first puts together two ingredients is entitled to name the food he made. If you put together oil and egg you don't call it oil-slash-egg but maynonnaise. The OS released by Linus Torvalds was named Linux in 1991. It has been called Linux ever since.
GNU only redefined itself as a meta-OS when it became clear that practically no one were any longer interested in the OS made up of GNU's userland and the HURD.
133 • 132 (by AC on 2006-11-19 22:49:09 GMT from United States)
"It has been called 'Linux' ever since" by some. not all. Yggdrasil called the system "Linux/GNU/X" in 1992 and Debian called it "GNU/Linux" in 1994.
And in 1991, Torvalds wasn't clearly using "Linux" to name the whole system. Quite the contrary, he wrote, "Sadly, a KERNEL BY ITSELF gets you nowhere. To get a WORKING SYSTEM you need a shell, compilers, a library etc. These are SEPARATE PARTS and may be under a stricter (or even looser) copyright. Most of the TOOLS USED WITH LINUX are GNU software and are under the GNU copyleft. These tools AREN'T IN THE DISTRIBUTION — ask me (or GNU) for more info." (Emphases mine.)
So Torvalds didn't have the same ideas in the beginning either.
Your metaphor is nice. I have another: a group of chefs are assembling a dish and late in its preparation another chef comes along and adds a key ingredient? Should he name the final result?
HURD is working but supports limited hardware. GNU/kFreeBSD is quite usable and will likely be released with Lenny, if not Etch. I'll probably be using it for my internal firewall, so I can have Debian policy and package management and PF rather than Netfilter: it's not just a "proof of concept". Historical aims aside, GNU as a system that can run atop a variety of kernels is a reality. And no other name fits as well as GNU/kFreeBSD. GNU/Linux is consistent with that emerging reality.
And we Debian users will continue to say "GNU/Linux", regardless of what others may say.
134 • 133 PS (by AC on 2006-11-20 01:09:11 GMT from United States)
Correction: I do not, of course, speak for all Debian users. I do think, however, that Debian documentation, mailing lists, and conversations I've had with developers do support my contention that there is a great deal of support for the use of "GNU/Linux".
135 • 133 (by Ariszló on 2006-11-20 08:04:35 GMT from Hungary)
And I will call Debian GNU/Linux as Debian GNU/Linux. :)
136 • The OS and the kernel (by Ariszló on 2006-11-20 08:26:19 GMT from Hungary)
AC wrote: And in 1991, Torvalds wasn't clearly using "Linux" to name the whole system.
Yes, he was and he clearly distinguished it from GNU: "I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones."
Even GNU had called the OS Linux and had not classified it as variant of the GNU System using the Linux kernel before it had the afterthought that it should be called GNU/Linux:
Linux: a free Unix system for 386 machines Linux (named after its main author, Linus Torvalds) is a free Unix clone that implements POSIX.1 functionality with SysV and BSD extensions. Linux has been written from scratch and contains no proprietary code. Many of the utilities and libraries are GNU Project software.
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