| DistroWatch Weekly
|DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 174, 23 October 2006
Welcome to this year's 43rd issue of DistroWatch Weekly! On the eve of several major new releases, such as Firefox 2.0, Fedora Core 6 and Ubuntu 6.10, this week's DistroWatch Weekly takes a brief look at some of the new products, comments on the new Fedora 6 release, and asks whether Firefox has lost some of its former glory. In the meantime, Xandros Corporation is rumoured to be under a "reorganisation", while Munich continues its march towards a successful switch of thousands of its desktop and server computers to LiMux, a Debian-based distribution that recently reached version 1.0. Also in this issue: a reader recommends BeaFanatIX, a light-weight and user-friendly distribution that attempts to revive the concepts of the BeatrIX project, while the "First Looks" section introduces the new Xen Demo CD 3.0.3. Happy reading!
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in ogg (3.6MB) or mp3 (5.8MB) format (courtesy of Matt Taylor).
Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
New releases from Fedora Project and Ubuntu, changes at Xandros, introduction to LiMux and BeaFanatIX, Firefox
For all the enthusiasts who follow the world of free operating systems, this will be undoubtedly one of the most exciting weeks of the year. Not only can we expect the first stable release of Firefox 2.0 and the initial beta build of openSUSE 10.2, the final releases of Fedora Core 6 Ubuntu 6.10 also scheduled for release later this week. In fact, Fedora Core 6 has been completed already, but as usual, the directories containing the new release have been locked until the release announcement. This should be made on Tuesday, 24 October, which was confirmed by Red Hat's Jesse Keating during the weekend: "Yes the 24th is _the_ date. We've reached the point of no return." As tends to happen just before each new Fedora release, several of the download mirrors have already opened up for access so if you desperately want to play with the new toy, you can try visiting some of these mirrors to see if any of them lets you in the newly created "6" directory. However, be aware that until Fedora Core 6 is officially announced and released, you won't get access to updates and extras for the new version.
Love it or hate it: the new Fedora Core 6 artwork.
(full image size: 1,329kB, screen resolution: 1280x1024 pixels)
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Although Ubuntu 6.10 "Edgy Eft" is still going through a last-minute bug-fix session before its official release on Thursday, the project has already announced preliminary plans for the distribution's next release, version 7.04 and code name "Feisty Fawn": "With the final release of Ubuntu 6.10 approaching, and apparently set to be spot on schedule October 26th, we're starting to look beyond it to Ubuntu 7.04, scheduled for release on 19 April 2007." What can we look forward to in Feisty? "The main themes for feature development in this release will be improvements to hardware support in the laptop, desktop and high-end server market, and aggressive adoption of emerging desktop technologies. Ubuntu's Feisty release will put the spotlight on multimedia enablement and desktop effects." Read this mailing list post by Mark Shuttleworth to learn more about some of the ideas behind Ubuntu 7.04.
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Is Xandros Corporation in the process of abandoning its desktop Linux users? DesktopLinux.com reports that the company producing one of the most user-friendly desktop Linux distributions on the market has recently undergone "reorganisation", with 5 employees from its marketing department already gone and a possibility of a change in the company's product orientation - from business desktops to high-end servers. As the article points out, despite overwhelmingly positive reviews in the media, Xandros Desktop has remained on the periphery of the Linux distribution market. This is largely due to its commercial nature, but perhaps also because the company has detached itself from the Free Software community, despite the fact that the lion's share of its products consists of Free Software.
But would Xandros's re-branding as a developer of predominantly server solutions turn the company into a financial success? Unlikely. The tightly contested market is already dominated by Red Hat and Novell, and any newcomer will have hard time to make a dent in this supremacy. Instead, we believe that the company should relaunch itself as a community-oriented desktop distribution with broader outside participation and with its own work (e.g. the Xandros File Manager) released under the GPL. Creating a high-end product with dozens of proprietary modules would be a step backward in the world where open-source software solutions are playing an increasingly important role. Xandros would be wise to follow the trends, not to go against them.
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Reports about the progress of the City of Munich in its current effort to migrate some 14,000 computers to desktop Linux are avidly followed by many Linux users and decision makers around the world. Will it succeed? Will there be any major problems that would stall the process? While nobody expects a huge transition like this to be a smooth ride, it seems that things are progressing rather nicely. LiMux, which is the name of the Debian-based distribution being deployed on Munich's computers, has recently reached version 1.0. Last week, the LiMux development team has demonstrated their new Linux system to Debian's Steve McIntyre who wrote about it in his web log: "They're using FAI to automate installation of systems, along with LDAP to store lots of configuration information and GOsa as a user-friendly front-end to that configuration. They've integrated these to enable some very clever management features so that all aspects of the city-wide system can be maintained from one central point." If you understand German, you can find more information about LiMux on the project's web site, or on its brief English page.
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A DistroWatch reader wrote in to give a thumbs up to a distribution called BeaFanatIX, a project which is trying to revive the now abandoned BeatrIX live CD: "I have discovered a wonderful little distro called BeaFanatIX. It is a light-weight (under 130 MB) mix of Ubuntu, KNOPPIX and Debian, but feels clean and sharp. It has given new life to my old laptop, which was running Puppy Linux, but I found it a little unpolished and Windows 95-ish. BFX installs on minimal hardware and runs fast, but as a Debian, the power of apt-get is just a few clicks away. The interface has the look and feel of its Breezy roots, with the GNOME desktop. Although the community is still small, the forums are responsive, usually getting help within a few hours or a day. The installer was one of the easiest I have used. I really hope you will consider giving this worthy little distro a look over. It is amazingly powerful for such a small package. I'm sticking with it on my laptop and would really like to see the community grow." Those readers who miss the light, friendly BeatrIX project might want to take a loot at BeaFanatIX; a stable 2006.1 and a beta 2006.2 versions are both available for download from the distribution's web site. See also the new distributions section below for a brief description and screenshot.
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Have you noticed the rapidly increasing unhappiness of some Linux users and developers with Mozilla Firefox and other Mozilla products? As an example, read this blog entry by Alexandre Buisse, a Gentoo Linux developer. Entitled "Goodbye Firefox!", the author writes: "I had been thinking of leaving Firefox entirely for a long time (I had already traded Thunderbird for mutt last year), mainly due to its huge memory print (I like to navigate with more than 20 tabs at the same time), its slowness and a growing dislike of the Mozilla attitude, especially since the creation of the Mozilla Corporation." This view is echoed by many other users some of whom have openly criticised Mozilla for giving preferential treatment to its Windows editions of Firefox and Thunderbird, and for displaying signs of commercialism; according to an unconfirmed report, Mozilla Corporation makes in the region of tens of millions of dollars per year by referring its users to Google search. Its recent dispute with Debian over a trademark issue didn't help to improve Mozilla's image either.
Has Firefox grown too big too quickly? And have you considered (or tried) an alternative web browser? Konqueror? Or perhaps Opera, if you don't mind using non-free software? And how about the Linux-only Epiphany, which is similar enough to Firefox (it even uses the same HTML rendering engine), but without the attitude problem of its Mozilla cousin? More importantly, do you share the belief of some users who claim that Mozilla is now run by people more interested in making money than in developing a great browser? Or do you think that it's all just smoke created by people who are jealous of Mozilla's success? Please share your views in the forum below.
Xen Demo CD 3.0.3
Last week's announcement about the release of Xen 3.0.3 generated surprisingly sparse media coverage. Although intended mainly for deployment on specialist servers and popular with many web hosting companies, Xen is a wonderful piece of software that can increase one's productivity even on a desktop system. Intending to prove that "virtualisation" is not just a buzz word, the developers of Xen also released a new demo CD to showcase the latest Xen technology and to demonstrate its capabilities.
I downloaded the Xen Demo CD 3.0.3 over the weekend to give it a test drive. Xen Demo CD is a bootable CD containing not one, but three Linux distributions - a recent build of Debian "etch", SUSE Linux 10.0 and CentOS 4. Its main purpose is to demonstrate the wonders of virtualisation, or in less technical terms, the technology of running several operating systems (or several instances of the same operating system) simultaneously on the same machine. In case of the Xen Demo CD 3.0.3, the user has a choice to boot one of the three available distributions and then, depending on the amount of system memory, launch several "virtual" instances of these in separate windows.
Xen Demo CD: running Debian, SUSE and CentOS simultaneously
(full image size: 466kB, screen resolution: 1680x1050 pixels)
Since the CD contains three Linux distributions, the amount of software is limited to the usual text-mode utilities, XFce desktop, and Firefox. Once booted, the user can choose to launch another distribution either from the command line (the xterm window will display relevant sample commands upon start), or by right-clicking on the desktop and selecting one of the three "guest" operating systems. The document supplied with the CD warns that you shouldn't expect breakneck speeds while running three or more distributions directly from the CD, but it should suffice as a demonstration tool. Disappointingly, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to transfer the content of the demo CD to one's hard disk.
Otherwise the only glitch in the CD is related to the X configuration; in my case, the default configuration with vesa brought about a blank screen, so I had to boot into text mode and reconfigure /etc/X11/xorg.conf by supplying it with the correct video driver before launching the GDM login manager. Networking was pre-configured and worked on the main system, as well as the two guest distributions I tried. An xterm window (shown in the bottom right corner of the screenshot) gave some useful information about the status of the virtual machines, including CPU and memory consumption of each running guest.
Xen virtualisation is a great way of running several distributions simultaneously and without having to reboot the machine - an excellent time-saving solution for many developers who might need to test their code on several different systems. But even if you are not a developer and don't have a need for running a number of Linux distributions on one desktop, Xen Demo CD is not only great fun, it is also a testament to the flexibility and superiority of open source software solutions.
For more information and download links please visit XenSource.com.
|Released Last Week
trixbox 1.2.2, 1.2.3
A new, bug-fix version of trixbox has been released: "Trixbox users have been reporting stability problem with 1.2. We are trying to address these with the 1.2.2 release. There are some strange audio problems with the 42 kernel. This is most apparent with VMware. When the 42 kernel is used the audio prompts are jittery and broken. This was not a problem with the 34 kernel. I am making the 34 kernel the standard for trixbox until further notice. The version of Asterisk 188.8.131.52 that is included with the 1.2.1 trixbox patch has a lot of the Asterisk patch files from Digium and other sources included. This may have caused some of the instability and FreePBX reload issues that were reported. The Asterisk 184.108.40.206 that is included with 1.2.2 has only 4 patches." Full details in the release announcement.
DeLi Linux 0.7.1
Henry Jensen has announced the release of an updated version of DeLi Linux, a distribution designed for legacy hardware: "DeLi Linux 0.7.1 is mainly a bug-fix release. But there are also some new features: support for Microchannel (PS/2 machines) and EISA; added 'deliget', a tool for downloading and installing packages; new packages including AbiWord 1.0.7, Fox, Xfe and XMMS. DeLi Linux is a distribution made for old hardware. Machines from 386 to Pentium I with 8 to 32 MB RAM are considered as target systems. DeLi Linux uses lightweight software wherever it is possible. Nevertheless DeLi Linux provides a graphical desktop with an office package, web browser, e-mail client, PDF viewer and games." The release announcement.
tinysofa classic server 2.0 Update 6
The tinysofa project has released the 6th update to "Ceara", its Trustix-based distribution for servers: "tinysofa classic server 2.0 Update 6 (Ceara) is now generally available. This release focuses on bug and security fixes, integrates all released security fixes, and updates various packages (notably the kernel) to the more recent upstream releases. 'Ceara' features: The Linux 2.6.16 kernel, grsecurity support, APT and SmartPM for advanced package management, the next generation PHP 5 environment (5.0.4), OpenSSH 4.3p2, high availability features such as DRBD (0.7.17) and UCARP (1.1), the latest development tools and languages (gcc 3.4.3, Python 2.4.2), and much more." Read the release announcement on the distribution's home page.
Tilix Linux 2.0
The second major release of Bulgaria's Tilix is now ready for download. Unlike the Tilix 1.x series, which were based on KANOTIX, the latest release, code name "Karposh" is built on top of Kubuntu. Apart from standard features, such as complete localisation into Bulgarian, Tilix 2.0 comes with the following new applications and characteristics: Linux kernel 220.127.116.11, X.Org 7.0, KDE 3.5.5 with Kaffeine 0.8.1; ability to write to NTFS file systems via ntfs-3g; new hard disk installation program for installing Tilix directly from live CD session; support for a number of multimedia formats, including MP3 and DivX; integrated browser plugins in Firefox - Flash, Java, FreeWRL, DejaVuLibre, OpenSC; availability of proprietary graphics drivers for easy installation. For more information please read the release announcement (in Bulgarian).
Tilix 2.0 - a Kubuntu-based distribution designed for Bulgarian speakers.
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Sun Wah Linux 1.5r2
After collecting feedback from its users for five months, China's Sun Wah today announced the availability of a revised version of its Debian-based distribution - Sun Wah Linux 1.5r2. Among the many new features and additions in the updated release the following are worth mentioning: inclusion of proprietary graphics drivers for ATI (version 8.2.28) and VIA S3 Unichrome graphics cards; support for Intel PRO/Wireless 3945 network cards, addition of MadWifi drivers, inclusion of Java, Mono and Mono-based applications, such as Beagle desktop search tool; support for 3D desktop effects with Xgl/Compiz; many upgraded packages (GNOME 2.14.1, Firefox 18.104.22.168). Read the release announcement and release notes (both links in Chinese) for further details.
pQui Linux 2.0
pQui Linux is a desktop-oriented Brazilian distribution based on Slackware Linux. Version 2.0 was released earlier this week. Compared to a standard Slackware, pQui Linux 2.0 is enhanced by a number of applications, including Firefox 22.214.171.124 with pre-configured extensions (DownThemAll!, FlashGot, TabMixPlus and VideoDownloader), browser plugins (MPlayer, Flash and Java) and search engines (Wikipedia and YouTube), BrOffice 2.0.3 with an updated Brazilian Portuguese spell-checking plugin, KDE 3.5.4 and customised XFce 126.96.36.199 desktops, gtkpod (for iPod support), Azureus, aMSN, MPlayer, MadWifi and NdisWrapper. It is built on top of a Linux kernel 188.8.131.52. Some packages, such as Dia, Nvu, Acrobat Reader and games, have been removed. For more information please see the project's news page (in Portuguese).
A new stable version of VLOS, a user-friendly, Gentoo-based distribution for desktop computers, has been released: "Today we are proud to announce the release of VLOS 1.3 as stable. Changes and fixes from beta3: updated to GCC 4.1.1, glibc 2.4, XGL and Compiz Quinstorm; fixed KDE problems with Compiz; updated to latest base layout, kernel and portage 2.1.1. Also, today I want to announce the open-community development of VLOS; the full version will be free of charge and the community will manage the project and development of VLOS. We are recruiting volunteers, developers and enthusiasts who want to participate and help us." More details in the release announcement.
The INSERT project has released a new version of Inside Security Rescue Toolkit, a Debian-based mini-distribution designed as a multi-functional, multi-purpose disaster recovery and network analysis system. INSERT 1.3.8 comes with the following changes and new features: "Most of the software packages and the Linux kernel (184.108.40.206) have been updated. Captive-NTFS was dropped in favour of NTFS-3G, which works faster and more reliable. This is the long awaited real NTFS write support for Linux. The downloadable Firefox is a 220.127.116.11 now. An install script for the virus scanner F-Prot (for home use) has been added." Read the release notes for a complete list of all changes and package updates.
A new minor update to AliXe, a French Canadian variant of the SLAX live CD, complete with French localisation and support for French Canadian keyboards, has been released. Version 0.09 is based on SLAX 5.1.8 "KillBill" edition which comes with the following changes: upgrade to KDE 3.5.4 and recompiled with some Slackware 11.0 fixes; better handling of booting from USB devices; addition NTFS-3g to fully support writing to NTFS partitions; addition of slaxsave.zip to SLAX CD, containing pre-built loop file systems. Visit the project's home page (in French) to read the brief release announcement.
Kenneth Granerud has announced a brand new release of Wolvix, a desktop-oriented live CD based on Slackware Linux: "After nearly five months of development, Wolvix 1.0.5 is finally ready for release. Wolvix 1.0.5 comes in two editions: 'Wolvix Cub' and 'Wolvix Hunter'. Cub is a small edition of Wolvix; it's designed to fit on 256MB USB Flash drives and to serve as a base for building your own custom Wolvix distribution. Hunter is the large 'standard' edition of Wolvix; it's designed to fit on 512MB USB Flash drives and use Wolvix Cub as its base. It includes more applications, a lot of games, and larger packages like Samba, Java and libraries for printer support. New in the Wolvix 1.0.5 series is the Wolvix Control Panel (WCP) which is a suite of administration utilities." Read the rest of the release announcement for further details.
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Development and unannounced releases
|Upcoming Releases and Announcements
Summary of expected upcoming releases
Web server disruptions|
As some of you might have noticed, the DistroWatch.com web server was inaccessible for about 8 hours on Sunday, 22 October, and also on several other occasions through the weekend and on Monday. While the web server itself appeared to be running as normal, for some unknown reason it stopped accepting client connections at various irregular intervals. We are still looking for the reason and solution to the problem so please accept our apologies in case you are unable to access the web site occasionally.
Perhaps this is also a good time to remind our readers about the DistroWatch mirrors - in case our main server is down, you can still read the content of the site on one of its mirror sites. Those located in the Czech Republic and the Netherlands have easy-to-remember URLs: http://distrowatch.cz/ and http://distrowatch.nl/.
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New distributions added to database
- Rails Live CD. Rails Live CD is a specialist distribution providing a pre-configured and fully operating Ruby on Rails development environment on a bootable CD. The distribution is derived from PCLinuxOS.
- Shift Linux. Shift Linux is a project that was created by the Neowin community. Based on Debian GNU/Linux and Morphix Linux, it has access to all of the software and applications as other Debian distributions. Neowin's Shift Linux is designed to give the user an experience of being part of the Neowin community and to have a simple, easy-to-use live CD that can be installed to a hard drive. Shift is a free distribution released under the General Public License. It can be freely distributed or modified.
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New distributions added to waiting list
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DistroWatch database summary
And that concludes our latest issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The next instalment will be published on Monday, 30 October 2006. Until then,
If you've enjoyed this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly, please consider sending us a tip.
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|Reader Comments - Jump to last comment
1 • Firefox & Mozilla Corp (by Alex Bucur on 2006-10-23 11:53:49 GMT from ) |
Well i'm already using Epiphany. It's too bad that a great piece of opensource software like Firefox to have this kind of problems. Hmm maybe next we'll have OpenOffice problems ?
2 • Web browser (by Caraibes on 2006-10-23 12:02:13 GMT from )
Here's a word about web browser :
I am a Blag user (www.blagblagblag.org), and of course, I run Firefox as my main browser, however, I must admit running Opera quite often, sometimes more often than Firefox, despite Opera being a non-free product.
The main reason is the nice integration of the IRC & mail in Opera.... Ok, the Opera mail client is not that great, but it works, so in one window, you have your regular browser tabs, your IRC tabs, and your email tab... That is very nice...
I do however miss Adblock and CustomizeGoogle extensions in Opera...
Now about Epiphany, Jeff, the Blag dev, was talking about it in the Blag forum... I installed it, and ran it a bit... But I am not impressed...
For me it is Firefox and Opera, because I enjoy having 2 browsers depending on my mood...
3 • RE: Firefox & Mozilla Corp (by Béranger on 2006-10-23 12:02:26 GMT from )
Well, if we'll start having OpenOffice problems (good point!), we might start using LaTeX :-D
But it's not Firefox having problems, it's Debian having problems!
Why people had NO MORAL PROBLEMS with KDE in times when Qt did *not* have a free enough license, but they get all upset when suddenly they encounter a trademark issue? (Remember: it is NOT about the code, it's about the icon and the name! Or... just distribute a build of the official sources!)
4 • Fedora Core 6 (by Jordi on 2006-10-23 12:05:36 GMT from )
Already downloaded Fedora Core 6 for AMD64, guess ftp mirrors will open today. Anyway, there are various torrents with it, but they are slow.
I'll try installing it on a computer this afternoon, to see if it works.
5 • Firefox... (by Berke Viktor on 2006-10-23 12:10:41 GMT from )
It seems Firefox is getting slower and slower. Quite bad coz I really loved it. I also hate this kind of commercialism.
6 • go firefox go!!! (by fukodlak on 2006-10-23 12:12:56 GMT from )
i'm browsing with 20 tabs opened and there's no problem with firefox. it's all about jelaousy, and irracional criticism.
firefox is fast and stable. i'm happy for it's existance. no matter what a single gentoo developer says. after all, firefox is a standarn in unix world and gentoo i just another linux distribution made by special kind of people.
7 • RE: 3 Firefox & Mozilla Corp (by ladislav on 2006-10-23 12:15:45 GMT from )
But it's not Firefox having problems, it's Debian having problems!
I might be wrong, but the way I understand it is the other way around - it was Mozilla that changed the rules recently, not Debian. Check out this report by LWN:
Besides, my story wasn't about Mozilla vs Debian, but rather about the increasing number of critical reports about Mozilla and Firefox which I came across in recent weeks in various blogs and forums.
8 • RE: RE: Firefox & Mozilla Corp (by Buffalo Soldier on 2006-10-23 12:16:18 GMT from )
"Why people had NO MORAL PROBLEMS with KDE in times when Qt did *not* have a free enough license..."
Some people did have moral problems with KDE at that time. And that lead to the development of GNOME.
9 • Good News! (by Tux_enthusiast on 2006-10-23 12:16:26 GMT from )
Its good to hear that Ubuntu 7.04 will get better hardware support on laptops. I have real problems with my new R60 the s***y wireless connection wont work
I tried SimplyMepis6.0-1 and Sabayon3.1
10 • Firefox (by Oliver on 2006-10-23 12:23:08 GMT from )
Ubuntu 6.06 "Edgy Eft" < this needs to be 6.10 ofcourse :)
As for the whole Mozilla problem: I'm not really into the whole political thing, I'll usually use what's best for my needs. I find Mozilla Firefox on Linux quite unstable whereas on Windows I don't have that problem, so rather due to this, than to Mozilla's branding issues I might switch to something else
11 • Firefox and Mozilla Corp (by Nikhil on 2006-10-23 12:28:36 GMT from )
My problem with firefox is merely of software quality and not of ethics and stuff. Firefox has a huge memory print. I use KDE and when i have 3 kde apps running and i start say konsole, konsole pops up immediately. But when i have firefox running konsole takes 2 seconds to start. Why can't firefox improve memory management when konqueror and opera can't. If konqui had extension support, I would be using it right now even though I like firefox so much. It is impossible to run other high end apps when running firefox.
12 • RE: Besides, my story wasn't about Mozilla vs Debian (by Béranger on 2006-10-23 12:35:22 GMT from )
I know, I know. But this is always a political interpretation. Debian's DFSG is the way *they* are defining freedom. It's just my dictionary has a different definition of freedom.
So, if for Debian developers (and even for you, Ladislav) the strory could be summarized: "Mozilla has a problem", I personally see it like: "Debian is having a problem". (I'm not sure yet if it's a psychiatric problem, a vanity problem, a talibanic problem, or just plain stupidity.)
Messing the definition of "free software" with the protection of a trademark suggests that they need a lawyer's advice.
13 • RE: Some people did have moral problems with KDE (by Béranger on 2006-10-23 12:38:10 GMT from )
Yes, but those people should be still using GNOME right now. However, judging by the number of people booing Mozilla, I'm afraid that even people who have never had a problem with Qt are now suddenlt outraged by the "zoo problem" (zoo == weasel, dove, ape...)
14 • About Epiphany vs Firefox : (by Caraibes on 2006-10-23 12:42:03 GMT from )
Here's the thread I was refering to in my earlier post :
And would like to aswer the post #5, Firefox is as fast as Opera in my PC... Sometimes faster (I use the Fasterfox extension)...
I run Gnome as my main desktop, and sometimes I also use Fluxbox or Xfce, so running Konqueror is not an option... Despite having Seamonkey and Epiphany installed, I plan to stick with Firefox and Opera, whatever names they might be called...
I want to point out that I use Opera despite its non-free nature because it is a superior product. So whenever I enjoy Firefox because it is better, it will also be despite any attitude problem of its Foundation...
If the product is better, I'll use it, this is as simple as that.
And I can't help to comment about Konqueror : I never liked it, I always found it to be an inferior product... I would never think of using it, even if I was running KDE as my DE...
15 • Seamonkey is better than firefox (by sp on 2006-10-23 12:43:34 GMT from )
Although for the simplicity sake i tried to use the firefox, its peformance is going below average. I switched to Opera which inroduced the searchbox convenience.
Seamonkey will be better than firefox for its other includes (mail,newsgroup), but it should detach its mozilla composer which is a unwanted thing for a long time.
As for debian decision to drop firefox is because, firefox screwed trademark policies. Debian is designed in such a way, any body can rename the debian and sell it, that is the purpose freedom in debian. But with firefox, it is no more. Good bye firefux.
Altest firefox, trade mark should made a exception to the GPL licensed products to derive easily. All linux distros will be chased by the Firefox trademark disturbance team, all going to withdraw from firefox.
Mozilla become moneyminded, so it won't take long to go down. watch out firefox legal eagles!
16 • firefox sux (by weg on 2006-10-23 12:44:34 GMT from )
Corperation Mozilla are showing there true colours. Debian shouldnt have to compromise its core values because a few lawyers tell them too- and so therefore isnt going to. I agree firefox and thunderbird are not light on resources and this issue should ALSO be dealt with. This situation seeming gets worse with every new version- time Mozilla woke up. (or have they already??)............
17 • Making money is bad? (by utabintarbo at 2006-10-23 12:49:00 GMT from )
Once again, we see the evidence of the Stallman-ization of the FOSS movement. Apparently, he is working towards becoming the "Ellsworth Toohey" of the software world, and doing a fine job of it.
18 • my problems with Firefox (by Ken Yap on 2006-10-23 12:51:01 GMT from Australia)
My issues with Firefox are mostly technical. I still have to run the 32-bit version on my 64-bit OS because the Flash plugin destabilises Firefox. Ok, so it's not a problem of Mozilla's making, really it's the closed proprietary plugin. However other browsers seem to have used clever tricks to quarrantine the Flash code. Opera, for example, seems to run Flash in a sandbox. Maybe Mozilla could learn some tricks.
Firefox also dies maybe after a couple of weeks of continuous use. Maybe it's all out of memory or something like that.
The other issue I have with Firefox is that it's getting more and more bloated. I think the default settings have leaned towards caching too many viewed pages. Perhaps this is because the average Firefox user has a slow connection. But some users with fast connections are willing to fetchmore often in return for a smaller footprint. Maybe they have it in 2.0 but I hope in some version they make it easy to tune the config with a simple setting. I know about tweaking the variables from the about page, but this is not user friendly.
Firefox seems to have gone away from it's lean and mean beginnings. But I'm sticking with it because the alternatives are even less satisfactory. Yes Konqueror, thanks for not noticing that I'm logged in via ssh -X and still attempting to open a connection to the local sound card. On a rack server.
19 • Mozilla dissatisfaction (by Anonymous on 2006-10-23 12:53:00 GMT from France)
Leaving aside the problems of trademark and attitude, my main beefs with the lizard familly are:
- sub-par performance and stability (memory leaks galore, frequent freezes, occasional crashes);
- the inability (let's not accuse the developers of unwilingness) to build gecko as a library: you get one version for TBird, another for Firefox, and third party browsers depend on the complete Firefox, warts and all, instead of the gecko library.
I will not even mention the antiquated bookmarks system, that manages to under-feature the old Netscape one while keeping all its faults. Wherefore art thou, XBEL!
On the other hand, there are a few extensions I really do not want to lose. That is the real strength of the Firefox. Well, that and marketing.
20 • Ubuntu & Firefox comment (by Luke on 2006-10-23 12:57:03 GMT from United States)
First off, great issue!
But yeah Oliver, I thought that the version number was wrong in that Ubuntu story. That, or I had time-traveled into the past.
Also, I believe the only valid point in the Firefox criticism is the memory hog one, when there are many tabs open. In fact, Firefox sometimes crashes my dual-boot laptop with 256 MB, on both Windows and Ubuntu. I noticed I have to hurry up and close Firefox when the fan starts getting loud. I'm still very happy with Thunderbird though. As for them making tens of millions of dollars by referring them to Google, good for them!
21 • Re: Firefox (by Troy Banther on 2006-10-23 13:06:31 GMT from United States)
I sincerely hope Distrowatch is not devolving into a gossip rag. I use Firefox and its variant on OS X when at work and I've never had an ounce of problem with the browser. I have had some issues with Java when working with Oracle.
22 • Firefox getting worse, mainly technical problems (by Ed on 2006-10-23 13:10:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
I've been using RC's of Firefox 2.0 for a few weeks and am not impressed by them.
The inline spellcheck (why are both of those words incorrect?) is nice and the forcing of new pages into tabs rather than windows is useful but some things are depressing about it. It looks worse, the resume session feature is not well thought out and some changes are for no particularly well explained reason. Why did they change extensions to addons? Why does the activity icon no longer take you to the Mozilla site when clicked? And why haven't they put any significant effort into KDE integration? Basically, Mozilla don't care about KDE users which is a bad sign for Linux users in general.
23 • Happy Firefox User (by darkchild on 2006-10-23 13:11:52 GMT from United Kingdom)
Anyone who has used the Firefox 2.x builds knows that the memory usage is a lot better than Firefox 1.x. I am using the 2.x builds on Windows and Linux and I am yet to see much performance difference.
It seems to me most of those who are whining about Mozilla are not moaning about technical issues but are doing so as a result of politics. This kind of behaviour is what is causing many companies not to opensource some of their products because some members of the OSS community sometimes act like a bunch of ungrateful zealots. Anyway Firefox works well for me and I applaud the Mozilla project for their effort.
24 • Fedora (by Fred on 2006-10-23 13:17:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
Installed FC6 a couple of days ago and so far I am very impressed with it!
25 • Firefox and not only... (by karellen on 2006-10-23 13:17:51 GMT from Romania)
I'm very happy and satisfied with firefox, but it's not my only browser. i also use Opera and Epiphany (which is lightweight and quite fast, maybe a little faster than Firefox) and I really can't see where is the problem. Choice is all that matters. On the other hand I'm very anxious to see Fedora Core 6, as FC5 was my primary desktop os for some time...
26 • Distrowatch Mirrors (by AFS on 2006-10-23 13:32:10 GMT from United States)
For the mirror urls, use Google's cache of distrowatch.com (bottom of the page).
27 • Firefox is good, although it has deficiency. (by Shiyu Tang on 2006-10-23 13:36:03 GMT from China)
It works well on both Windows XP and Linux. But I have to say that firefox ported with MDV 2007 doesn't work well. It is all MDV's fault, not fx's. The offical fx works well.
28 • firefox (by mark on 2006-10-23 13:41:10 GMT from United States)
Fox works great for me (windoz,ubuntu,ubuntu edgy) I think the problem is the system. Reminds me of the dems here in the states. When trying to elect a president
they first inflict near fatal attacks on the candidates then wonder why they cant
win!! Would love to see an article on using xen to run windows and how much
different the newest cpus perform. Just my .02 cents great work ladi
29 • Firefox, Opera, Seamonkey, Etc...Anything but IE (by DigitalVampire on 2006-10-23 13:42:57 GMT from United States)
While the personal experiences and opinions are great, all these posts remind me of the Distributions disputes. Which is better?...SUSE, Ubuntu, Fedora, Etc...I just like to keep in mind that at the end of the day they are all use a linux kernel (which, in my opinion, is much better than others). The same concept applies to the browser. Let's all be serious here. Nothing can be worse than the giant security hole that is IE. Keep that in mind.
30 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-10-23 13:51:04 GMT from United States)
"Also, I believe the only valid point in the Firefox criticism is the memory hog one, when there are many tabs open."
Firefox 1.5.x has proven that it can eat up *all* of my memory and hundreds of megs of virtual memory on a fresh install of WinXP SP2... and while never having more than two to three tabs open at a time. Just give it a few hours, and the system will be crawling like a slug. Opening a brand-new (blank) tab and closing all the rest does nothing; no memory is freed, and a close and restart is required. Either that, or a switch to Opera or SeaMonkey, both of which perform better as far as memory use and speed goes.
I also recall closing Firefox (usually to free up memory it's wasting) and try to restart it - but it wouldn't open. The reason: the Firefox process was still running, and had to be terminated. The latest 18.104.22.168 release seems to alleviate these problems somewhat, but what's ironic is that it still feels slower than SeaMonkey, and these problems do still exist to a degree. Firefox really shined in its 1.0 days... but now, everything it was meant to "fix" is creeping up.
So far, I haven't run older versions on Linux, but the latest couple versions seem to run better than their Windows counterparts (at least the older versions). Still, they're no match for SeaMonkey and Opera, IMO. Firefox has been getting on my nerves since 1.5 (especially around the time Mozilla Corp. was formed), and I'm considering abandoning it completely if they don't quit acting like such money-hungry hogs and FIX their browser.
31 • Never had any problems with Firefox... (by massysett on 2006-10-23 13:52:15 GMT from United States)
Firefox is an excellent browser. I've never had any problems with it. I've never noticed the memory problems so many speak of, but maybe that's because I close it fairly often.
Opera and Konqueror are both very good, and I have noticed that Opera renders pages faster. But I stick with the Fox because of the universe of extensions. Nothing matches the convenience of Adblock and Filterset.G.
32 • The FireFox controversy (by Art Levine on 2006-10-23 13:57:19 GMT from United States)
I'm one of those folks who is into simple, fast and no problems. I don't code, I'm not a techie by any definition, and I don't care about much more than stability, speed, and the ability to run lots of browsers, windows, and tabs all at the same time......Having memory issues due to TBI from a horrific car wreck, I need all the memory help I can get.... and so running multiple browsers with lots of open windows and tabs (and I gotta throw del.icio.us in with that memory resolution stuff too) is a mandatory thing for me. So far, my record is 4 browsers, 23 windows, 67 tabs.
This drives my S.O. crazy. She keeps her system (she does the "old" Mepis at home and at work and resolutely refuses to move to the "new") clean and simple and it's a 1 browser 1 windows maybe a couple but certainly no more than 3 tabs open set up.
Opera9, IMNSHO, is the currenty king of the hill......Opera mail is pitiful, but the browser is as of this morning anyway, unbeatable. And, IMO Opera has the best bookmark management currently around too.
Konqueror is very fast and very stable too, the most stable I believe, my second favorite.
Epiphany is a nice browser, I was told by one that it doesn't work well under KDE, but somebody else told me what and how to set it up to "run right" under KDE and I am quite happy with it.
FireFox is ok, but when running multiple browsers it seems that after starting FF, whatever else is running starts slowing down, and occasionally FF just closes out all by itself. so I only run it sometimes....
There was a nice browser comparison done a week or so ago:
that might be interesting read for some of y'all
And hey Ladislav....Thanxxx for the reply re:Dreamlinux.... I got it, I tried it, it's pretty nice, but I prefer SimplyMepis6, or Knoppix (run "live" w/persistant image for all my "stuff"), or OMG! FreeSpire, a very nice simple to use system. Nice to have lots of choices to give a try and learn about too though....
Lots of interesting Linux stuff comes out of Brazil, my son spent 8 months there this year and is due to return there in January for 8 more months....He sends me stuff, some of it in Portuegese, which is just a tad bit foriegn to me, but often very humorous when machine translated. But, I gotta give a recomend to GoblinX, a very nice distro indeed....very nice
33 • Epiphany/Firefox (by Yodelling Cranberry on 2006-10-23 14:03:14 GMT from United States)
I haven't seen any significant change in Firefox's speed, page loading
or whatever. I have seen, however, improvement enough in Epiphany
to switch to it over Firefox and Mozilla.
There are a few small bugs here and there in Epiphany (an ampersand
on the applet buttons, for example??) and it is less configurable than
Mozilla and Firefox, but I don't like the direction they're taking, so for
now it's Epiphany, especially being as how the plugins now work! :)
34 • Non-Free Opera??? (by Jay Bovard on 2006-10-23 14:14:28 GMT from United States)
Who's kidding whom? Opera has been free for years. I am totally amazed that Distrowatch fails to recognize that.
35 • Wolvix (by stevos on 2006-10-23 14:23:28 GMT from United Kingdom)
wolvix iso dl link not responding, seems the host has put an ad page up; try:
36 • browser speed comparisons (by JV on 2006-10-23 14:30:52 GMT from United States)
Firefox is just slow and bloated and getting more so with each version. It's ironic that Mozilla/Seamonkey is faster and slimmer when the whole reason why Firefox was started was to trim Mozilla down and simplify things. Well, I guess they succeeded on the simplifying part.. (having to manually edit your preferences for useful features like what directory firefox should use for your cache is pretty ridiculous)
Just as disparaging is the fact that both Mozilla based browsers are consistantly faster in Windows overall than Linux, but the differences in Firefox seem to be larger.
Anyone who's ever run Firefox on older hardware would have certainly felt the pain that these numbers confirm.. coupled with more distros now shipping Firefox with Pango enabled.. I can't imagine the horror.. how is it going to perform on something like the OLPC?
37 • Firefox (by Eduardo Baccelliere on 2006-10-23 14:42:41 GMT from Chile)
Good work Ladislav.
I enjoy Distrowatch Weekley every Monday.
I run Firefox 1.5.x as my only browser on an ancient Pentium III with 256 MB RAM (Windows XP SP2) and it works fine (few tabs opened).
On a SimplyMepis 6.0 machine (AMD Sempron 2.3 Ghz 512 MB) it also works ok.
Kind regards to all
38 • Firefox... (by Piotr on 2006-10-23 14:50:07 GMT from Poland)
I use Konqueror as my browser/file manager/SFTP client ;) and I don't want to use anything else. I have opera installed also when I need to view some weird page or something like that... firefox... on gentoo ? update after an update. IMHO firefox is good browser but not super. It very big, has a bit strange settings/configurations and on linux it isn't a light application.
39 • Firefox (by Fergy on 2006-10-23 15:06:36 GMT from Netherlands)
I have been trying each new version of each browser and only IE and since Phoenix 0.5(Firefox) have been able to convince me to use it full time. Of course Firefox has its problems like memory consumption but the other browsers have much bigger problems:
- badly supported rendering engines
- difficult, inflexible ugly Gui's
- non-free licenses
- too small market share
About the Debian Firefox trademark problem? Mozilla wants the Firefox name and logo to stand for something. You can still use the same code but if you want to call it Firefox and use the logo you have to follow Mozilla's rules. Nothing wrong with that.
40 • Konqueror (by Alex on 2006-10-23 15:22:42 GMT from Norway)
I don't use firefox as my standard browser just because i think konqueror is the better. Some pages don't work out the way they shold though.
41 • Count me among the Firefox haters too (by M. Edward (Ed) Borasky on 2006-10-23 15:26:03 GMT from United States)
I haven't found an alternative yet, but I've been looking for quite a while. Given how easy it is to interface to the web using most scripting languages these days, perhaps a "home-brew" browser for us hard-core geeks is what's needed, with IE7 and Firefox for mom and dad and the pointy-haired boss and the IT department. :)
P.S.: This year's Top Five is coming out soon. Gentoo and R are still there, but the other three have been replaced. Broad hint ... one of the new ones is a scripting language, and another one is a document preparation tool.
42 • What about SeaMonkey? (by stevos on 2006-10-23 15:28:25 GMT from United Kingdom)
Why not drop SM in as a Firefox replacement?
Are there any issues with SM and trademarks?
My use of SM suggests (?) that it has better memory handling.
43 • re: Non-Free Opera (@38) (by Anonymous on 2006-10-23 15:58:22 GMT from United States)
Opera can be obtained for free but it is closed source. It's the whole "free as in beer" vs. "free as in speach" disctinction.
44 • re : #34 (by Caraibes on 2006-10-23 15:58:53 GMT from Dominican Republic)
FYI, Opera is free as in beer, but not free as in speech...
45 • Firefox (by Synergy6 on 2006-10-23 16:15:12 GMT from United Kingdom)
I used FF since 0.9, and still use it today (2.0 final). I have 2GB of RAM, and it never uses over about 70mb, so memory usage is a non-issue. I don't leave it open for a "couple of weeks", (why would anyone?), and I've never experienced a memory leak or major glitch.
Other non-issues for me include:
Debian legal spats - I don't use Debian, so if they and Mozilla want to get out the handbags, so be it.
Google money - People WILL use Google from any browser, so why not get what is essentially free income from it? After all, with two clicks you can select a different engine.
I've looked over Konquerer, Epiphany, Lynx, and Opera. In their own ways, they're not "bad", but they're also not good enough to encourage the hassle of switching.
46 • DistroWatch access slow? (by KnightFire on 2006-10-23 16:23:21 GMT from Canada)
Access to DistroWatch is quite slow... is something up?
47 • foxed (by Barnaby on 2006-10-23 16:24:57 GMT from United Kingdom)
Noticed on Windows 2000 (before I wiped it earlier this year) that it felt remarkably slower at boot time after installing FF1.0x. Opera had already been on there for quite a few months without such effect. How's that possible? No idea. FF was and is slower to start up. I think it was only leaner and faster than Mozilla suite back in it's pre-1.0 days.
On Linux Opera is again my browser of choice due to its sheer speed and functionality - no dogma attached. It is also the only browser that works with some pages that seem IE only, which I need to log my timesheets and get paid. Epiphany or Konqueror when something plain will suffice, but FF will still stay for a while due to its Livebookmarks and some extensions- adblock and imagezoom (which reminds me a bit of Powertools for IE5) although it's definitely the slowest of them all. It depends on the job.
48 • D'oh! (by KnightFire on 2006-10-23 16:28:14 GMT from Canada)
Apologies... ignore that.
49 • foxed (by Barnaby on 2006-10-23 16:31:22 GMT from United Kingdom)
Noticed on Windows 2000 (before I wiped it earlier this year) that it felt remarkably slower at boot time after installing FF1.0x. Opera had already been on there for quite a few months without such effect. How's that possible? No idea. FF was and is slower to start up. I think it was only leaner and faster than Mozilla suite back in it's pre-1.0 (0.7) days.
On Linux Opera is again my browser of choice due to its sheer speed and functionality - no dogma attached. It is also the only browser that works with some pages that seem IE only, which I need to log my timesheets and get paid. Epiphany or Konqueror when something plain will suffice, but FF will still stay for a while due to its Livebookmarks and some extensions- adblock and imagezoom (which reminds me a bit of Powertools for IE5) although it's definitely the slowest of them all. It depends on the job.
22.214.171.124 has improved page loading and start up speed a bit but not enough to compete.
50 • No subject (by Gabriel on 2006-10-23 16:47:31 GMT from United States)
Strange, I've never had any issues with Firefox. In fact, I couldn't live without it. I can't think of an alternative, free (as in speech) browser that works as great as Firefox on *nix AND Windows. I doubt anyone can.
51 • Firefox (by Claus Futtrup on 2006-10-23 17:37:00 GMT from Denmark)
I use Firefox. I remember when it came out and gave resistance to a dead but dominant MS Explorer, wonderful. I remember it changed the battle of giants into a more slim (and modular) program. Strong points still standing today.
I agree that we'd like to see Firefox use less memory, and I hope we will get what we urge for with the next release.
I like Firefox less than when it came out. To me this is because other alternatives are available and Firefox is no longer a mile ahead, but rather behind. I hope that Firefox will reinvent being visionary and will take care of the Linux society as well (a well founded base for Firefox, as opposed to a competitive MS Windows world). A strong home base is worth a lot. I don't think Firefox (or Mozilla) grew too quickly, I just think focus was lost for a while.
When it comes to Thunderbird - it's slow, doesn't always react correctly to what I do (because it lags). It could need major improvement, which I hope will happen soon. Let's hope that Eudora can apply something to Tbird ... and more is to come. If Sylpheed could convert my Tbird mail and address book, I'd switch and try it out today.
52 • firefox (by Mike on 2006-10-23 17:38:12 GMT from Canada)
When FF first came out I was stunned by the speed and the fact that it was only trying to be a web browser. Now the program is slow and you can make it cook your meals and do your taxes. I just want to look at the Internet.
53 • does anybody know about flock?? (by Eric on 2006-10-23 17:51:20 GMT from Canada)
ok i read about everyones posts till now and not 1 mention of flock. flock is devived from firefox and does include flock extensions, which are slightly diff from firefoxes, and i can say is rather use flock than FF anyday, with the use of its web 2.0 features like a built in delicious management. its notas if i hate firefox willfully, its becuz i cant ever get anythin i want done wwith it, i thought firefox started in linux and was ported to windoze. if thats the case, they have truely forgotten their roots and have only userbase and money in their heads now. the only time firefox was slightly nice to use was because of the skin and updated 2.0 rc2 on the kubuntu edgy repo. i have tried about every feakin browser to compare, safari, konqueror, firefox, flock, seamonkey, opera, a few browsers built on IE6 engine, IE7, and so far my chioce is Opera and runner up is Konqueror, with flock Very close to Knoq. flock is nice for its amazing usability(friendlyness) and it looks like a gem, screw skins, never needed to change it;) so if ppl complain about FF, try flock and see what u think of a truely web 2.0 generation of browsers but based on firefox, so you wouldnt be falling far from your tree, lol. FF isnt my cup of tea for being a pain for plugins in linux, and its horible stability in linux/BSD!!! but i like it for being granted the power to interact with googles many features and services(gmail, etc). but opera is my fav browers for BROWSING. if u use firefox on windoze, gove flock a go, as amazingly i havent tried it on linux yet so i cant give my opinion there.
54 • I love Firefox! But... (by ubuwalker31 on 2006-10-23 17:51:54 GMT from United States)
I love Firefox and I use it on both Windows and Ubuntu Linux. I have mixed feelings about the trademark issue. On the one hand, I think it is important to protect the Firefox trademark from 2nd rate imitators. On the other hand, Mozilla Corps refusal to give Debian a pass on modifying the code without pre-approval seems...well, heavy-handed.
The purpose of protecting the trademark is so that Mozilla won't lose the rights the Firefox brandname. And thats fine. However, Mozilla could have used a less detrimental and alternative means to do this. This could be done by a post-approval process. If Mozilla finds that changes don't meet it's standards (whatever they are) then they could threaten to revoke permission to use the trademark. If the issues weren't addressed, then permission could be withdrawn. However, this would be understood by both parties as mere formality, no lawsuits would be filed, and only angry letters would be exchanged.
But, I think it is silly to have to go through these formalities for GPL licencesed software on linux. It is easier to just use a generic icon and name for the application. Everyone knows that it is Firefox, and for users who don't know, well...they probably don't care anyway.
55 • Fedora Artwork (by Anonymous on 2006-10-23 17:55:57 GMT from United States)
I must admit, I like the FC6 and the FC5 artwork that so many complained about. It's easy to change if you don't like it, so what's the big deal anyway?
56 • FireFox + Wolvix + 46-DW slow (by johncoom on 2006-10-23 18:23:07 GMT from Australia)
FireFox = Bloatware
I find it very funny that every one has just seemed to have realized this ?
1.5 years ago the meeting co-coordinator of my local LUG said he noticed it
(due to this I have preferred to use Konqueror but do FireFox some times)
Wolvix site links = slow etc
This might explain why ? here http://www.wolvix.org
Site is dog slow
Submitted by wolven on Mon, 2006-10-23 15:48. Site News
The website is annoyingly slow at the moment. There has been some problems lately with my connection and I'm not sure what's the cause. I've doubble check everyting on my local network, server, router firewall, etc, but I can't find any problems. Last Thursday (19.10.06) I had no connection at all most of the day. This was resolved, (I called my ISP) but the connection has funky ever since. I've contacted my ISP again and told them about the problem, (upload speed is slow and unstable) but they say they can't find any thing wrong...
I'me working on resolving the issue, sorry for the problems.
DistroWatch access slow?
Well I noticed this also - BUT it is not suprising - if you consider how many people are probably trying to get to this site just after each Mondays DistroWatch Weekly comes out ?
[ it was obvious for me :-0 ]
57 • epiphany (by Bryan Siegfried on 2006-10-23 19:50:10 GMT from United States)
I'm writing this from epiphany right now. Epiphany is a great browser. For my purposes, it works perfectly, including using some of the ahem, non-free codecs for multimedia (such as CNN video, etc). I use ubuntu at work and have been extremely pleased with epiphany. I use konquerer at home with a kubuntu installation. Several version ago, konquerer had difficulty rendering even some common websites, but now it works like a champ and also meets all of my browsing needs.
Personally, I don't see why debian and otehr distros don't just move firefox to the non-free side (like opera) and have epiphany or konquerer as the default browser.
58 • Ubuntu dist-upgrade (by Ariszló on 2006-10-23 20:56:44 GMT from Hungary)
Tried to dist-upgrade Dapper to Edgy the Debian way but I was not happy to lose X. I had no such problem with Debian, which I first dist-upgraded from Sarge to Etch and then from Etch to Sid.
59 • Firefox (by SlaxFan on 2006-10-23 22:55:32 GMT from United States)
I still like and use Firefox most of the time. I also use Konqueror and then I miss some of the available extensions for Firefox. The extensions are what makes Firefox great.
60 • M oZ il l a fffi ref o x (by Terry The Turnstile on 2006-10-23 23:15:39 GMT from United States)
I must be doing something wrong, since I don't have any of these memory issues with Firefox that others have reported. Older versions used to crash fairly often, but now that seems to be fixed as well.
I would like to see Mozilla add extra features through their own, official, extensions though - rather that incorportating peripheral stuff like close tab buttons & spell checking (spell checking isn't going to end the infuriating your/you're confusion, or the lose/loose problems that so many people seem to have, now is it..?).
If Mozilla made their own extensions, then users could choose whether they wanted each particular feature or not. This would surely be preferable to just adding more and more stuff willy-nilly and like-it-or-not.
61 • Kanotix RC4 (by Marcos Quadros on 2006-10-23 23:31:01 GMT from Brazil)
I didn't find, here, news about Kanotix RC4 and the date of its final release.
62 • I'm gonna cry (by Mr. Pink on 2006-10-23 23:46:01 GMT from United States)
I can crash kubuntu 6.10 at will using mouse only.
63 • Firefox (by IMQ on 2006-10-23 23:51:16 GMT from United States)
I can attest to the facts that Firefox is getting bigger and not so fast. Also Memory hog like a hungry teenager.
My main reason to switch from IE long time a go was the fact that Firefox in its early days was just a browser. Fast and good enough for 'basic' web browsing. The second reason was tab browsing. Nothing new about tab browsing back then if one ever tried Opera, but Opera in those day had ads in their freeware version.
At the moment I am running Kubuntu 'Edgy' Release Candidate with Firefox 2.0. However, I have not used it long enough to see if there is any improvement over the 1.5x other than the cosmetic enhancements.
After reading some comments about SeaMonkey and Opera, I now installed both just to have a play. Especially Opera now no longer have ads on their browser window.
About the issue between Mozilla & Debian, I just have to wonder why now? I have installed numerous distros, practically all have Firefox as the main browser. However, they all slightly different from one distro to the next but all named Firefox. So what changed? Was it becaused they were compiled differently from each other? Were the source modifiied in these distros? If so why didn't Mozilla complain about them til now?
64 • Firefox Alternatives (by Gene Venable on 2006-10-24 01:13:18 GMT from United States)
Sure, I always consider alternatives to everything. I have discovered a new fondness for Konqueror, for example. Opera had a great chance to push its new Widgets, but it decided they weren't fashionable enough and put them on the back burner.
But as long as Firefox keeps allowing creative and interesting extensions, it will continue to be the go-to browser. Until something better comes along. How about Safari for Linux? Fat chance.
65 • firefox (by ff fan on 2006-10-24 02:22:43 GMT from United States)
i love firefox, i use it in windows and in linux. only time i have ever not used firefox was on an old 400 mgz ppc laptop which totally sucked so it wasnt really the fault of firefox.
ya firefox could be a little more streamlined but i dont think the issue lyes in hte fact that is is semi-comercial or anything like that. it is basically becasue there is a windows version.
lets face it all whenever we make a kickin app we always make a windows port with messes up our whole vision of what we are working for for linux but those stupid windows developers never make ports for us. it is so a one way street here.
thing is windows users are yelling "make it easier and automatic" and linux users are yelling "make it barebone and customizable" and the corp is in hte middle not sure what to do.
if they droped windows support altogether we would see a browser that is many times better than any competition but that wont happen...
66 • On Firefox (by Wrawrat on 2006-10-24 02:41:38 GMT from Canada)
I don't know why so many people are complaining on the trademark issues between Debian and Mozilla.
Mozilla are "evil, commercial, money-corrupted corporationists" for enforcing their trademark rules, yet the Debian folks are completely innocent, even though they forced the "Debian Pure" team to rename their project (which was basically a slimmed down Debian; AFAIK only the install process was modified) for the same reason?
Why the double standard? You HAVE to defend your trademarks, else they could become generic.
Some people just love to cheer for the underdog, while it seems Firefox isn't "geek" enough anymore for others.
Not that Firefox is necessarily the best browser around; there are many browsers out there which can fulfill somebody's particular needs better than FF (Konqueror comes to mind). I am just astonished by the zealotry...
Reply to #22:
"Basically, Mozilla don't care about KDE users which is a bad sign for Linux users in general."
How many GTK+ projects are bothering with KDE users? Do you believe the Konqueror team is really caring about GNOME? Geez...
67 • Firefox (by Ruddigger on 2006-10-24 03:57:36 GMT from United States)
The only reason that I use Firefox is because there are certain features that don't work (or I don't know how to make them work) in Konqueror...
But if it weren't for that I believe that Konqueror is much better integrated into my desktop and I would prefer to use it solely.
68 • QT (by energyman on 2006-10-24 04:36:16 GMT from Germany)
13 • RE: Some people did have moral problems with KDE (by Béranger on 2006-10-23 12:38:10 GMT from )
Yes, but those people should be still using GNOME right now. However, judging by the number of people booing Mozilla, I'm afraid that even people who have never had a problem with Qt are now suddenlt outraged by the "zoo problem" (zoo == weasel, dove, ape...)
Why? QT was 'freed' years ago. And even their 'nonfree' version had a safety net - if trolltech had ever stopped developing it, it would have been freed. KDE eV had a contract with them.
And why should people still not use KDE because of a problem that is not existing anymore? That was not really a problem anyway?
Why not boycot gnome for being a memory hog? Why not boycot gnome for passing every odd gtk application as their own?
The gnome-crowd is full of KDE-haters, if you complain that KDE and gnome do not work well together - ask the gnome crowd why. The KDE people tried to work with them - but everytime the gnomies do it different, just to make the life of the KDE people harder.
69 • RE #17 (by warpengi on 2006-10-24 05:18:55 GMT from Canada)
"Once again, we see the evidence of the Stallman-ization of the FOSS movement"
That's about the most fucked up comment I've seen on distrowatch yet. Maybe you're not aware that RMS created the Gnu Public Licence which is at the core of the "FOSS movement." In other words it was Stallmanized from the very start:-)
A recent upgrade on my Distro caused Firefox to bog down severely. I filed a bug report and it has been fixed but for about a week I tried Konqueror. I just like Firefox better even after configuring Konqeror. There are some features that I like about Konqueror but there are features for Firefox that I really like. As some others have already noted Konqueror doesn't render as well and that was the deciding factor.
70 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2006-10-24 08:52:23 GMT from Iran, Islamic Republic of)
Firefox is fine! There's not much choice when it comes to customizations anyway!
71 • firefox (by klhrevolutionist at 2006-10-24 08:54:16 GMT from United States)
Once the heat on this subject started I contacted the debian via e-mail & sided with them on the browser issue. I also encouraged an off-shoot of the firefox browser.
Upon reading the puppylinux forum I had seen that debian did just that. And once assured the browser was just as good I switched to gnuzilla !
There are other browsers out there, but need developers attention. Linux needs a small browser that can handle the formats of the web, css, sml..
All of this gecko, gnome & kde needed crap... Though I do like them I would rather see a small app that is not reliant upon this and that.
HV3 - is a nice up & coming browser http://tkhtml.tcl.tk/hv3.html
Lend a hand and help out the developers if you can.
72 • RE: 66 • On Firefox (by Stinkhorn on 2006-10-24 09:21:00 GMT from Germany)
"I am just astonished by the zealotry..."
Perhaps people understand better than you that Mozilla is merely testing what kind of reactions they receive with their recent attack on Debian. Next they'll attack some other distro -- unless users start complaining. There are a number of technical issues that could be considered but you're trying to turn this discussion into politics by saying that anyone who dares to criticize Mozilla is a zealot. A comment like that can turn any discussion into a useless mud-slinging contest.
Now, if you can think for a moment about the actual technical issues at hand (instead of politics), you'll quickly see that the official Firefox support for Linux has been unexcusably poor. Firefox releases their new stuff first as Windows-compiled binaries while the Linux binaries and the source code becomes available later. Firefox only supports officially few architectures and they protest when distros modify the source code in porting Firefox to other architectures. (Debian being the biggest offender here.) And several distros also support older Firefox versions, that the Mozilla people don't want to support any more. These are the main problems, although there are other smaller problems in Firefox which all apply to Linux but not to Windows.
The fact is that Mozilla / Firefox treat their Linux users and Linux distro makers like dirt. This is not just the opinion of Debian and Gentoo developers -- practically all Linux distros curse Mozilla & Firefox for their attitude problems and lack of support. Here's what a Fedora Release Engineer thinks about Firefox:
"firefox.org doesn't care about Linux. [...] They really really suck
for trying to work out security updates, especially for Linux where they
aren't providing the binaries. They care about what they provide as
precompiled clients and nothing else"
73 • Dillo needs your support! (by Stinkhorn on 2006-10-24 09:32:37 GMT from Germany)
Dillo is a very light-weight web browser and they've made good progress in porting their GUI to a new toolkit and improving the browser in general. But now they need money from individual donors. Please help Dillo by donating some money if you think that Linux needs a fast, light-weight web browser like Dillo.
74 • Ubuntu edgy not ready yet (by Webtag on 2006-10-24 11:03:24 GMT from Finland)
Ubuntu edgy RC seems to have some problems. The init process stalls and it tells me that fsck has failed. But if I press "Ctrl-d", it continues booting without problems. And I've run e2fsck from another partition and it shows no problems in the file system of the Ubuntu partition. Maybe it's this new UPSTART thing that makes the boot process stall? Anyway, I find it annoying.
Also the location of the virtual screen is partly outside the physical screen, leaving a black gap to one side of the screen. I haven't met this problem with any other distro or earlier versions of Ubuntu. And XFCE keeps crashing.
I'm going to re-install dapper because it doesn't have these problems. And when the new Debian stable version comes out, I'm going to give it a try.
75 • RE #17 (by Rolling on the Floor on 2006-10-24 12:03:16 GMT from Germany)
LOL, you really made my day. You know, without RMS there wouldn't be any F in FOSS. Sheesh, some people...
76 • Re: Non-Free Opera??? (by Misty on 2006-10-24 12:28:56 GMT from United States)
Opera has not been "free for years" either, only about one year. Before then you could use it without paying $30 only by putting up with a big-ass ad bar in your face. I'd hardly call that free either.
77 • Re: 35 • Wolvix (by stevos ) (by johncoom on 2006-10-24 13:18:05 GMT from Australia)
" wolvix iso dl link not responding, seems the host has put an ad page up; try:"
" http://www.crihosting.com/wolvix.php "
Try again now as they seemed to have fixed their upload problems
78 • Re: Xandros Corporation (by Bob Mann on 2006-10-24 14:46:08 GMT from Canada)
Who writes this stuff? Someone by the name of 'we', who quotes no sources and seems to get their information from 'good budies' or 'an insider'! Sounds a lot like the National Enquirer (which is basically a comic book!). The author is obviously talking through their hat and hasn't a clue!
According to the author, laying off 5 marketing people means Xandros is 'abandoning its users'?? Get real - and stop writing spurious bulls***!
After reading that article, I now deem everything else written on this site as suspect.
79 • nomination for the next donation (by ray carter at 2006-10-24 14:51:01 GMT from United States)
I'd really like to see Elive get the next donatin. This is a quality product that is making major improvements as it goes. It is my distro of choice for 'old' equipment.
80 • It's a good week! (by Rob on 2006-10-24 14:51:10 GMT from United States)
Fedora 6 and Firefox 2 released in the same week...
81 • Re. 76: Opera (by UZ64 on 2006-10-24 15:04:27 GMT from United States)
"Opera has not been "free for years" either, only about one year. Before then you could use it without paying $30 only by putting up with a big-ass ad bar in your face. I'd hardly call that free either."
For a while during that time, I actually used Opera... even with the ad. It was not a "big ass" in-your-face ad you're talking about... and with higher screen resolutions, I never really even noticed it. It sat at the very top of the screen if I remember right, and was nothing compared to some of the crap that was (and is) on web pages themselves. Even with that ad, it still provided a better experience than Firefox, in my opinion. I previously owned Opera 6 and then 7, and the day it went completely free without ads was the day I was waiting for. I'm still waiting for the day they open the source, if only so distros will be willing to include it, but until then I'll continue to download and install it separately.
82 • RE: 78 Xandros Corporation (by ladislav on 2006-10-24 15:07:04 GMT from Taiwan)
Who writes this stuff?
Each issue of DistroWatch Weekly is signed by the writer at the bottom of the page.
Someone by the name of 'we', who quotes no sources and seems to get their information from 'good budies' or 'an insider'! Sounds a lot like the National Enquirer (which is basically a comic book!). The author is obviously talking through their hat and hasn't a clue!
As the title of the publication indicates, "DistroWatch Weekly is a weekly opinion column". The writers here understand that readers have every right to disagree with the opinions expressed here. If you feel that a writer's opinion is wrong, you are encouraged to provide counter-arguments and corrections in this forum. Alternatively, you can also submit a full article for publishing in the following issue of DistroWatch Weekly.
83 • No subject (by pilpilon at 2006-10-24 15:53:58 GMT from Israel)
very happy with Konqueror on Linux,
OK with firefox on Win
using Netscape on Sun on work, there is nothing else.
and see no difference between fox and wiesel.
84 • FOSS (by Ariszló on 2006-10-24 16:06:18 GMT from Hungary)
Rolling on the Floor wrote: LOL, you really made my day. You know, without RMS there wouldn't be any F in FOSS. Sheesh, some people...
I never use FOSS in my language. It means 'have diarrhea' in Hungarian.
85 • Firefox (by Tazzix on 2006-10-24 18:01:36 GMT from United States)
As others have said... politics aside, my issues are more technical... Firefox is getting bloaty. My personal main attractions to it were that is was lean and mean, has some great extensions, and is typically more secure than IE (especially with No-script extension)... I really don't care about tabbed browsing, I hardly use it. So, if I do switch off Firefox, it will be more due to the bloat, and not the politics.... however the extensions are keeping me, at this point.
The other attraction was that it was nice to have a common browser between Winblowz and a Linux Distro... where the exact same extensions could be utilized. As someone else commented... extensions are Firefox's strength. I have a Winblowz Box (mainly for gaming) and Linux Box set up side by side, at home... and while one PC may be doing one thing... I'm usually surfing on the other... again... common browser is nice.
The political BS hurts Linux (apparently only Debian based at this time) more than Mozilla. People that are finally getting sick of MS, have had good experiences with Firefox, and are considering a modern Linux Distro... there is an extra attraction to use the same browser and extensions that were used in Winblowz. Even if Seamonkey is nearly the same, the Firefox name and logos carry their own attraction to the non-techie people that are considering a switch to Linux. (And I'm encountering more of these people every day... small businesses wanting to totally switch off Winblowz).
I guess, my point is... while most of us that are tech savvy don't care about renaming and re-logoing it in a distro... it WILL have a negative impact, as far as attracting some newer folks.
86 • Firefox is a pig - memory hogger (by Observation on 2006-10-24 18:11:08 GMT from Finland)
#36 commented: "Anyone who's ever run Firefox on older hardware would have certainly felt the pain that these numbers confirm.. coupled with more distros now shipping Firefox with Pango enabled.. I can't imagine the horror.. how is it going to perform on something like the OLPC?"
- - -
Exactly. Here are some hard data about memory usage - surveyed for
Old hardware in mind.
Look at t the 3rd picture in this heading; under bullet which
reads "In general, modern WWW browsers are memory hogs.". The "reserved"
physhical memory are is what counts and Opera is the lightest.
87 • Re:Firefox is a pig - memory hogger (by warpengi on 2006-10-24 21:06:52 GMT from Canada)
Well that's one point of view. I have 1.5GB ram and an Opteron CPU on my main desktop. I don't want to hit the back arrow on my browser and have to reload the page from the net when the page could be in cache, add to that some extension I'm running that reduce the amount of bandwidth that I need to access sites and I can probably browse faster than a leaner browser. There is a reason for the memory usage, it's not just bloated code.
That said, I'm all for lean apps. With all the crap on web pages these days unless the browser is written by default not to load images and ads then a little more code is needed.
88 • Firefox Alternatives (by Neil Shah on 2006-10-25 03:57:01 GMT from United States)
I found "Flock'' to be a good replacement for firefox. Although it does not integrate itself in the usr hierarchy.
89 • Firefox (by nilb on 2006-10-25 04:38:15 GMT from Canada)
It seems strange to suggest using Opera to avoid Mozilla's commercialism.
Nonetheless I've used Epiphany quite a bit and honestly it's interface just sucks. Take it for example that when you open a new tab the selection is not on the address bar, so if you are like me and press Ctrl-T and immediately start typing a url, you're just wasting your keystrokes.
Oh and the other thing you can't just select a url from the address bar's history without necessarily going there. I tend to do this when I want to open page from a site I've visited, being this a page I've not necessarily checked out before (i.e. I want to modify the url manually).
And finally, for now, the search-in-page feature is so terrible that typing upper case does not match lower case words but the reverse is not true.
Epiphany is just not ready for prime time and Konqueror is just not an option *for me* as I do not fancy the looks of QT.
So for now, I'm sticking with Firefox or as Debian now calls it IceWeasel, all the same.
90 • Fedora Core 6 (by Scott Wilson on 2006-10-25 04:59:25 GMT from United States)
I was one of the lucky ones that got Fedora Core 6 early.
I was wanting to try Fedora since Ubuntu 5.10.
I had issues ingetting the core 6 installed on my Dell E1505 laptop. after about the four try the installition went smooth.
My Grips, (as I have posted before, in other DWW) Im an "out of the box" Linux user. I have been using Linux for about 7 years now. I really dont want to tinker or tweek settings, mainly I dont have the time. Also I try to remember the scarey newbie world when taking the plunge into Linux. So "out of the box is important to me.
1)After the initial reboot I had to switch to shell 7 from one to readjust my scereen resolution.
2) The wireless onboard Intel wireless doesnt work, It doesnt even turn on. Major show stopper! (Works "out of the box" with Ubuntu and its gang)
I am trying to add some packages inhopes that I can get it to start working.
Desktop.... Well WOW!!!!! looks so good! Clear sharp picture, Ipopped a music CD and it plays and sounds good. I will stick with it for about a week, if I dont have wireless working then I will be switching back to Ubuntu.
My 2 cents
91 • BeaFanatIX -- very nice! (by Timothy Lord at 2006-10-25 05:34:15 GMT from United States)
I downloaded the 2006.2 version yesterday, and finally played with it today. In short, BeaFanatIX is very sweet. It's a bit bigger than some of the very-smallest distros (like DSL), but it still fits on a mini CD if you have any handy. (Just not on the 50MB business cards CDs that DSL and a few others heroically squeeze onto.)
Surprising to me is that the Gnome system included is ("only") 2.12. Surprising not because of any particular features I miss from running newer versions of Gnome, but because of how nice the desktop looks and acts. For instance, when subfolders are opened, they replace the folder from which they were opened, instead of joining it on-screen and building a mess of open directories, behavior I'm used to as the default in Ubuntu's 2.16 Gnome desktop, but not in the 2.14 Gnome system on my eLive-based system. Gnome has been acceptably wonderful for quite some time, which is easy to forget until you an older version so nicely set up.
The default theme (in fact, the only one included on the ISO) is clean and simple, and the whole system is extremely responsive; it feels slick enough that I doubt anyone would jump to the fact that it's a live CD, at least when its running on my Thinkpad T40 with 512MB RAM. (I hope it will be *usable* on my old Toshiba laptop with a 266MHz MMX Pentium and 96MB RAM, but that's the best I can expect.)
Despite being only in the "small" rather than "smallest" category of LiveCDs, there are fewer apps included in BeaFanatIX than in some smaller distros (DSL, Puppy, Austrumi). The included apps are well-chosen, though; the Beep media player is a nicely friendly player for music (though a more capable video player would have been nice), AbiWord and Gnumeric are excellent apps for slinging around words and numbers respectively, and several other solid, useful programs (Mozilla, Gaim, GQview, Gparted, Gnome's Text editor) round things out.
I was happy to see that it did several things right that not every distro manages to do:
- Successfully boots! (always good)
- recognizes and runs the internal wireless in my ThinkPad (note, I can't say how *well* it works, because I am without a wireless network to play with just at the moment)
- allows one to boot from the hard drive's first partition rather than the CD (which is hardly necessary but a courtesy I appreciate, and have seen on several live CDs of late)
- works the sound card for playback with no tweaking; no idea if it works for recording, and don't see any recording-capable program included anyhow
I have yet to test out BeaFanatix with my stable of wireless cards, but Linux systems in general have gotten pretty good -- much better, at least -- about playing well with wireless cards; still, I have some cards which defy all comers. Yes, it's the makers' fault, I realize, and it gladdens my heart that things keep getting better on this front. So, fingers are crossed on that front.
I recommend this release, though I have some questions about it. Since it's based on three different source distributions (straight Debian, Ubuntu, Knoppix), I wonder how well it plays with the repositories of any of these, and whether --if I should install it to the hard drive -- it's easy to simply upgrade the system to the latest (stable / testing / unstable) version of Debian. I don't see Synaptic in the menus while running the Live CDs, and I hope that it's included with a hard-drive installation -- I've become very fond of the Synaptic interface.
92 • Galeon (by AC on 2006-10-25 05:47:59 GMT from United States)
Has anyone experimented with this alternative GNOME browser?
93 • Questions about FC6 accessibility. (by linbetwin on 2006-10-25 06:06:49 GMT from Romania)
The main reason I haven't switched to Linux yet is the poor & buggy accessibility support. I'm getting tired of downloading and installing every new release of Ubuntu, SUSE, Mandriva and Fedora only to find that screen magnification has improved very little (if at all).
So I ask the people who are already using FC6 to tell me what version are the following packages:
94 • Firefox guilt (by Christopher Lees on 2006-10-25 06:33:48 GMT from Australia)
I started feeling guilty about using Firefox, after what happened with the trademark issue. So I changed the name in Gnome to "Iceweasel Web Browser", and used one of the proposed icons for Iceweasel.
This didn't negate my guilt, so I thought about using Epiphany. Sadly, as this still uses the Gekko rendering engine, it didn't make me feel any better.
Now I'm using Konqueror on Gnome, and I quite like it. I've even looked to see if there is a KHTML browser for Windows.
95 • Firefox guilt? (by AC on 2006-10-25 08:04:21 GMT from United States)
People, Mozilla has done nothing wrong!
I am known here as a staunch Debian supporter and I remain one. I also support their IceWeasel decision as in keeping with the DFSG and Social Contract.
But Mozilla is right too. they have to enforce their trademark just as Debian had to enforce theirs!
Suppose Microosoft produces their own version of Firefox. One riddled with patches that make it very unstable and buggy. And to give users choice, they release it as a service pack, making it easy to let users install IE or Firefox direct from Microsoft. Suddenly many more users try Firefox...
and decide it's crap.
The only way for Mozilla to prevent such a thing is to enforce their trademark even in cases like Debian. They can't pick and choose.
96 • Re: Galeon (by Ariszló on 2006-10-25 10:26:32 GMT from Hungary)
Galeon does not solve the Mozilla vs. Debian issue because it is built on top of Firefox just like Epiphany.
97 • Galoen (by AC on 2006-10-25 16:45:12 GMT from United States)
Actually, Galeon and Epiphany can be built against any Mozilla browser last I checked. But in any case, my remarks was addressed to those who find Firefox bloated but Epiphany lacking in features, not to those (misguidedly) protesting all Mozilla products.
Incidentally, in the future, Galeon will exist only as optional extensions to Epiphany.
98 • Ubuntu's Spaceman / Browsers (by Rob on 2006-10-25 20:04:01 GMT from United Kingdom)
first thing, I stumbled upon this link about Mark Shuttleworth's space adventure:
You learn something new everyday eh?
Secondly, I have used Mozilla suite for a good while now. The inegration works very well.
Something that really annoyed me about Firefox was that it didn't integrate seemlessly with it's mail compliment, Thunderbird. This I have never understood... ;-/
If I have both installed, I expect links to work (both ways) no messing!
Finally, if konqueror worked with mplayerplug-in I would switch, but only Gecko engined browers are compatible... ;-(
Anyway, nuff said. Better read DW now! Lol
99 • New Kanotix not reported (by mikkh on 2006-10-26 12:54:40 GMT from United Kingdom)
I thought it had been a while since Kanotix had a new release, so I went looking on their site
Apparently RC4 was available in very early October, but it doesn't show in distrowatch, RC3 was the last one mentioned
Here's the link for those who interested
One of the better Debian clones IMO
...Not even gonna mention the U word :-|
100 • R: 99 New Kanotix not reported (by ladislav on 2006-10-26 13:02:51 GMT from Taiwan)
RC4 was reported in the "Latest Distributions" section (main page, left column). It did not make the front page headlines because the release announcement on the KANOTIX web site was too sparse and superficial, so it was hard to turn it into a full news item. Next time please keep an eye on the information in the left column or, even better, subscribe to the RSS feed to stay informed.
101 • Resistance to Open Source (by Bill Savoie on 2006-10-26 16:36:01 GMT from United States)
Last week I was downloading Linux, which I now know is forbidden. The IT manager broke my ftp link with Italy, and now as punishment, I am required to give the next security talk at our lab. Not much punishment for an extravert. It seems that the USA lives in a bubble. Thanks Ladislav for this wonderful website. At home I will download Kantoix, and at the age of 61, I will hold on to my day job. For those who want only technical talk, my apology, for the rest, those who live in other countries, don't be like us, don't make war your biggest economy. I can remember the days when consumer products was our first priority, now sadly, we import them.
102 • Galeon and konquerer (by Bryan S on 2006-10-26 18:14:27 GMT from United States)
Epiphany was apparently a fork of Galeon, and at this point I believe Epiphany has become the default project. In my experience, Epiphany provided a better experience, although it is not perfect.
I still believe that if the mozilla corporation is unable to tolerate a separately compiled version of firefox, move it to the 'non-free' section and use the gnome and kde default browsers. I noticed some incredulousness regarding firefox and opera being called non-free, but as most of the reader will know, this does not relate to the cost of the program but the 'free'ness of the license (mozilla being much better than opera, of course).
In reference to Konquerer and mplayer, since I ran automatix (on a ubuntu install with kubuntu-base added), my konquerer plays all sorts of content, such as CNN wmv videos.
wrt the license issues - so much hand-wringing, so little time to live!
103 • browsers go head to head (by dg on 2006-10-26 18:32:34 GMT from Netherlands)
104 • Mozilla browsers (by AC on 2006-10-26 19:32:03 GMT from United States)
There's no need to move them to non-free when a name change would suffice and for those unfamiliar with the Debian system, moving Mozilla or Seamonkey and Firefox to non-free would also require moving Epiphany and Galeon to contrib since they, while free, would depend on a non-free package.
105 • Epiphany & galeon (by AC on 2006-10-26 19:34:19 GMT from United States)
Yes, Epiphany became GNOME's default project because it's design better conformed to GNOME's desire for simple interfaces. galeon continued as a featureful alternative but lack of developer support after GNOME's move has them now implementing the additional features of Galeon as extensions to Epiphany. There aren't yet extensions to cover all Galeon's added features, but that's the goal.
106 • Xandros (by Bob Mann on 2006-10-26 20:30:45 GMT from Canada)
I forgot to mention.. in my recent dealings with Xandros i found out that they have actually increased the size of their technical support department over the past several months; which tells me its just the opposite of what the author was implying!
107 • Browser (by Jimmy Hodges on 2006-10-27 06:33:51 GMT from Canada)
"Or perhaps Opera, if you don't mind using non-free software"
Actually Opera has been free for a few months now. It has by far the most advanced functions of any browser and I can't understand why people aren't moving over quicker. Sure you can get Firefox to more or less do what Opera can if you add a bunch of plug-ins, but why waste your time. Zoom, Bittorrent, easy forward reverse mouse functions. Once you get used to it every other browser feels like riding a snail.
108 • 107 OPERA IS NOT FREE! (by AC on 2006-10-27 07:11:57 GMT from United States)
Nor is it "open source"
109 • RE 107 Are you sure? (by warpengi on 2006-10-27 07:18:01 GMT from Canada)
"Actually Opera has been free for a few months now"
What licence has it been released under. I find no reference on their web page. AFAIK it's still a proprietary product.
110 • Free vs. Open Source (by Ariszló on 2006-10-27 09:54:12 GMT from Hungary)
Free is ambiguous in English. Open Source is not. However, GNU advocates won't use it because they will not accept terms coined by outsiders.
111 • 110 rising to my friend Ariszlo's bait (by AC on 2006-10-27 10:09:15 GMT from United States)
"Open Source" doesn't describe things accurately either. having access to source code is only one of the freedoms, as programs like Pico illustrate.
And do you have any basis for the GNU position being to exclude outsiders? It's not their stated reason? Do you read minds? Or is this psycho-analysis?
BTW, I am a GNU advocate and I used "open source" and referenced OSI as well as FSF.
Aren't you a GNU advocate? You use a lot of GNU software and encourage others to use it don't you?
112 • PS (by AC on 2006-10-27 10:18:50 GMT from United States)
BTW, lots of words are ambiguous in English. And if explaining it requires some discussion of the difference between "free of charge" and "freedom", that's a good thing in my estimation!
113 • Re: 104 • Mozilla browsers (by Bryan S on 2006-10-27 13:11:56 GMT from United States)
Would it help the status of epiphany, etc, if the gecko engine was put under another license, such as the GPL? My understanding is that the branding issues are paramount here. If a change in icons, etc, would be sufficient to solve the crisis, then license issues should not force epiphany into the contrib section.
114 • 111-112 (by Ariszló on 2006-10-27 13:26:07 GMT from Hungary)
AC my friend asks: Aren't you a GNU advocate?
Yes, I love sharing software, knowledge and chocolate but I am not fond of GNU's language. One should be able to express ideas without constantly clarifying what each word means, imho.
115 • Re: 113 • Mozilla browsers (by Ariszló on 2006-10-27 15:41:55 GMT from Hungary)
Mozilla source code is triple-licensed and one of the licences is the GPL:
116 • freedom (by warpengi on 2006-10-27 17:21:46 GMT from Canada)
When referring to free software the term is not ambiguous. It means freedom. On any Linux oriented web sites that should be understood. I am willing to accept that newbies don't understand that but I expect they will have their lack of understanding pointed out quickly.
I wish I was in Hungary to get some of that free chocolate:-)
117 • 113 Mozilla browsers (by AC on 2006-10-27 19:27:11 GMT from United States)
As Ariszlo pointed out, the code is triple licensed and available under the GPL. The only problem is with branding. So rebranding is a far more sensible solution than moving the whole thing to non-free.
I suppose one could put Firefox WITH branding in non-free and put just the Gecko engine components in main so that Epiphany and others could use them, but why do that when renaming is far simpler?
118 • Re: 116 • freedom (by Ariszló on 2006-10-28 08:57:39 GMT from Hungary)
Warpengi wrote: When referring to free software the term is not ambiguous.
I agree that the term is not ambiguous but, unfortunately, non-techie folks usually do not know that it is a well-defined term so you need to explain what it means, no matter whether you like 'enlightening' people or not. I like sharing ideas but hate correcting people who confuse Free Software with freeware. I prefer accepting language as it is used by ordinary people. Language should be strictly public domain.
119 • Re: 117 • Mozilla browsers (by Ariszló on 2006-10-28 09:08:17 GMT from Hungary)
Actually, IceDove is a much better international term than Thunderbird. Pronouncing the th at the beginning of Thunderbird is a real challenge if your language does not have the sound. In Hungarian, it is pronounced variously as Sunderbird, Tunderbird, or Funderbird.
120 • 118 a pedantic defense of pedantry (by AC on 2006-10-28 10:05:34 GMT from United States)
"I prefer accepting language as it is used by ordinary people. Language should be strictly public domain."
Are people who use Free Software not "ordinary people"? Perhaps you mean people not involved in any specific field?
Language evolves under the influence of people in various fields, by deliberate efforts at education, by propaganda, and sometimes quite by accident.
Most terms used in discussions of computers, software, and the Internet weren't in common usage 20 years ago. You may find many instances where you might wish to correct someone. Or you can let it slide.
"Open source" doesn't remove the problem. The popularization of that term led to Microsoft trying to pass off it's shared source program as "open source". And a lot of software, including the original Unix code, has had its source code available without its being under a Free license. But to the "ordinary person", being able to look at the source code sounds like "open source".
That issue arises less often than confusion of free beer and free speech, but it does arise in journalism and in political and legal discussions.
And that's to be expected.
Why should we assume that the topic of software licenses should already be provided for by "plain English", any more than topics of information or computer sciences? And why should we expect never to have to explain such a subject?
121 • Opera, non-free, but just great ! (by Caraibes on 2006-10-28 12:35:20 GMT from Dominican Republic)
I must admit that I am fully back to Opera since a couple of days (despite it being non-free, too bad...)
It is just the best browser in the market...
Ok, I miss some extensions (adblock & customize google), but overall it is great !
I plan on using Opera as a browser, and also as a IRC client, but not as an email client (Opera email sucks...)
For email, I recommend Sylpheed, or Sylpheed-Claws, those really rocks !!!
122 • and so it goes (by wapengi on 2006-10-28 18:50:13 GMT from Canada)
Looks like the debate about labelling will continue. Maybe one day even the family dog will understand that free in reference to software means freedom and he will distribute copies of his favourite distro to the cat. Until then we will continue the discussion. Yup, it's a hassle, I agree. Still it is an important discussion to have.
123 • 123 (by AC on 2006-10-28 21:07:04 GMT from United States)
What, if anything, does the fall in Red Hat stock and its cause in Oracle's announcement of discounted GNU/Linux support tell, if anything, for future Red Hat funding of GNOME and the Linux kernel? Does the prospect of lower revenues for GNU/Linux support spell less money going into Free Software?
Questions to consider...
124 • Iceweasel (by Manuel M$ on 2006-10-29 00:24:42 GMT from Costa Rica)
Is there a official version of Iceweasel, then what is the memory usage in the gnuZilla browser?
125 • Mozilla Corp. is Wrong (by Bob on 2006-10-29 18:32:28 GMT from United States)
If the issue was just about the trademarked artwork, then I would support them even being a "Debian Fanatic" as one blog labeled me and others like me. But it is not just about the artwork, it involves the fact that the Debian Maintainers are backporting security fixes to an unsupported (by Mozilla) branch of FF to keep the 1.0 version secure. Mozilla wants to see these patches to keep their "quality" up (breaking a previous agreement with Debian) in effect delaying security fixes for Debian, something that would be intolerable on ANY distribution.
Having used the browser off and on since .8 and full time since .94 on MS Windows and on GNU/Linux (it has improved vastly on both platforms though is far from perfect) I was saddened after reading the full bug report filed by Mr. Conner on behalf of Mozilla Corp. and look forward to using IceWeasel with its improvements and newer features when Etch ships.
126 • Re: Iceweasel (by Ariszló on 2006-10-29 18:56:29 GMT from Hungary)
Manuel asks: Is there a official version of Iceweasel, then what is the memory usage in the gnuZilla browser?
You can get it from here:
127 • Re: 126 (by Manuel M$ on 2006-10-29 22:37:43 GMT from Costa Rica)
I was asking : There is a official version of Iceweasel. Then what is the memory usage in the gnuZilla browser?
Sorry for my bad english
128 • Re: 127 (by Ariszló on 2006-10-30 07:17:53 GMT from Hungary)
The Iceweasel package that you can get from http://gnuzilla.gnu.org/download/ is as official as it can be since it is provided by GNU. I have not tested memory usage but I guess it should be much the same as it is with Firefox.
129 • 127 &128 (by AC on 2006-10-30 07:29:27 GMT from United States)
It should be noted that GNU IceWeasel and Debian IceWeasel will not be the same. Debian will continue to work from the upstream Firefox source.
Number of Comments: 129
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