| DistroWatch Weekly
|DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 128, 28 November 2005
Welcome to this year's 48th issue of DistroWatch Weekly. The first test release of Fedora Core 5 and a final release of PCLinuxOS 0.92 were responsible for much excitement during the past week; we'll take a brief look at both these new products. Is Libranet GNU/Linux history? It would appear so, based on an informal announcement by Libranet's Tal Danzig. Also in this issue: a new "ideologically-pure" Ubuntu derivative, KNOPPIX seeks graphics artists, and a quick look at the new KDE 3.5 expected later this week. Our featured distribution of the week is DesktopBSD, a surprisingly intuitive and user-friendly FreeBSD derivative. Happy reading!
Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
- Miscellaneous news: Fedora 5, Gnubuntu, Libranet, KNOPPIX, PCLinuxOS 0.92, KDE 3.5
- Featured project of the week: DesktopBSD
- Released last week
- Feedback: On anti-Mandriva "crusade"
- New additions: Grafpup Linux
- New on waiting list: Arudius, CryptoBox, FUSS Project, ILEX, MiniKnoppix, MythDora, ULL Linux
Miscellaneous news: Fedora 5, Gnubuntu, Libranet, KNOPPIX, PCLinuxOS 0.92, KDE 3.5
The biggest news last week was the Test1 release of Fedora Core 5. As has become tradition in the development of Fedora Core, Test1 is usually just a snapshot of the current "rawhide" development tree, packaged into a convenient set of installable ISO images. This has historically been rather rough around the edges and it appears that the release last week was no different. But that's to be expected from a distribution that has always been a leader in implementing interesting new features; just consider that FC5 Test1 is the first distribution to include the new modular X.Org 7.0rc2, while the Anaconda installer has been modified to use "yum" as its dependency resolution backend. There is also the new "pup" - a graphical front-end to "yum" for handling package updates. If you haven't installed it yet and if you are not keen to help with bug reports, you might be better off waiting for Test2 (it should be out before Christmas), which tends to be considerably more stable than any Test1 release from Fedora.
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As if having Edubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu wasn't enough, it seems that a new Ubuntu derivative, called "Gnubuntu" is about to be born. Mark Shuttleworth: "We've registered "gnubuntu.org" for an ideologically-pure derivative. Have had some discussion with RMS [Richard M Stallman of the Free Software Foundation (FSF)] about this. He's supportive of the idea but not the name... we may go ahead with the name as it is, since I think it perfectly captures the link to both projects. The idea would be to setup that derivative to include only stuff that's FSF-blessed (even if the FSF doesn't bless the name of the aggregation)." If you are interested in contributing to this project (and earn a few brownie points from RMS), read this mailing list post for further information. On a related note, Ubuntu Linux and Mark Shuttlewroth have both won awards at the Linux New Media Awards at last week's Linux World Expo in Frankfurt, Germany.
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Is this the definite end of Libranet GNU/Linux? "On the Libranet front, I hope to be able to post something more official soon, but basically the operation is shutting down." The above is from a recent blog entry maintained by Tal Danzing. Tal, following the death of his father, the founder of Libranet, and the desertion of another developer, is the only person responsible for maintaining this user-friendly, commercial Debian derivative. Disappointingly, he doesn't seem to be able or willing to continue his father's vision, while, at the same time, he has rejected the idea to hand over the distribution to the Libranet community. As a result of this development, we have now flagged Libranet GNU/Linux as "dormant" distribution and removed it from Page Hit Ranking and other statistics. More discussions on the subject can be found on Slashdot and the Libranet forum.
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Do you enjoy KNOPPIX and have the talent to design better graphics for the popular live CD? If so, then you might be interested in this announcement: "Since our painting / drawing capabilities are very limited, Knopper.net offers the following to all interested graphic artists: you send us a graphics package for inclusion in Knoppix, and, if the package is accepted for a Knoppix release, we promote your website or business via a link that you can place on the desktop wallpaper in return." Artists are asked to contribute wallpapers, boot and splash screens, and background images for the KNOPPIX HTML help files. For information about the format and licensing, please refer to this announcement.
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The new release of PCLinuxOS generated plenty of buzz during the past week. One of the most user-friendly free distributions available today, PCLinuxOS has found many fans over the last couple of years, mainly due to its ability to deliver a product which is pre-configured for desktop use and which requires very little post-install configuration to make it into a complete distribution. Proprietary graphics drivers, browser plugins, multimedia codecs and other conveniences of modern desktop operating systems are all ready for use right after the install. The developers have also paid much attention to the overall graphical impression of the desktop, with attractive icons, theme and wallpapers complementing the desktop. Although PCLinuxOS software is supplied in RPM format, the distribution uses apt-get and Synaptic for package management, so there is never a need to re-install the distribution after a new release. Perhaps the only disadvantage of PCLinuxOS is that it does not provide out-of-the-box support for any language other than English.
PCLinuxOS 0.92 - it just works.
(full image size: 366kB)
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If everything goes according to the release plan, the much awaited KDE 3.5 final should be out tomorrow (Tuesday). Some reports indicate that the recently released KDE 3.5RC2 is essentially the final release, but let's wait for the official announcement and the creation of the new 3.5 directory before we start compiling or installing binary packages. KDE 3.5 is expected to be a solid and comparatively bug-free release - that's based on the first impressions of the RC1 that has been shipping with the recent alpha release of SUSE Linux and also available as an easy upgrade for Kubuntu and several other distributions. One of the best early reports (with screenshots) about KDE 3.5 has been published by Tuxmachines, while a complete list of new features is available here.
|Featured project of the week: DesktopBSD
As the name suggests, DesktopBSD is a project that attempts to bring the BSD operating system to the desktop of an average user. Although any of the three main BSD operating systems can be set up and used on desktop computers, they have acquired a reputation of being hard to configure and they often lack support for some of the more recent hardware. As such, FreeBSD and OpenBSD are predominantly used in server environments, while NetBSD is an interesting system to consider for one of the more exotic processor architectures.
But things are about to change. PC-BSD and DesktopBSD are two new projects that have started to build more user-friendly variants of FreeBSD, complete with intuitive graphical installers, graphical system configuration tools, and simple ways to install binary packages or to compile FreeBSD ports directly from source code. Although both projects are currently in their pre-1.0 development stages, their most recently releases are surprisingly usable and even less technically inclined computer users would find either of them an interesting alternative to Linux.
We installed the third release candidate of desktopBSD 1.0 last week, shortly after its release. We marvelled at the simple installer and excellent hardware auto-detection and auto-configuration of all devices on a four-year old Pentium 4 computer. Once the system was installed, we found it amazingly easy to add the full power of FreeBSD ports to the system and start compiling new applications to extend our desktop. Installing binary packages or updating the system was equally simple - all from within a pleasant graphical utility called "Package Manager" (see screenshot below). The "Package Manager" is currently one of the main selling points of this project.
Comparing PC-BSD with DesktopBSD is not an easy task, but because of the more advanced package manager, it would appear that DesktopBSD has a slight edge over PC-BSD. On the other hand, PC-BSD has focused on creating a web-based method for installing binary applications packaged in PBI format, which, while not quite Click-N-Run (a package needs to be downloaded and saved to hard disk before it can be installed with a double-click), is perhaps easier for non-technical users. However, the number of PBI packages for PC-BSD is rather limited at present. Ports can be compiled on PC-BSD using the traditional "make install" method on the command line, while retrieving the ports tree and the FreeBSD sources can be done from the comfort of a graphical application.
It will be interesting to see how these two projects develop. Judging by the activity in its user forums, there seems to be a lot of momentum behind PC-BSD, but there is little doubt that DesktopBSD has a few interesting ideas on its own. Would it better if the two projects merged? Or do you think that the competition between the two could provide further momentum to the two projects and perhaps lead to higher adoption of FreeBSD on the desktop? Please discuss below.
DesktopBSD - compiling BSD ports has never been easier
(full image size: 1,388kB)
|Released Last Week
Ufficio Zero 0.6
Ufficio Zero is an Italian Linux distribution optimised for use in office environments. Version 0.6 is a brand new release - now based on Ubuntu instead of Arch Linux which was used as the base for all previous versions. Other changes included the following: added simple scripts for downloading and installing non-distributable software, e.g. media codecs, Flash player, Java; included a graphical network configuration dialog; added scanner support; automatic hardware detection and configuration. Ufficio Zero 0.6 is a live CD only, but the next release, expected in April or May 2006, will support hard disk installation. Find more details in the release announcement (in Italian).
Finnix 86.1 has been released: "Finnix is a small, self-contained, bootable Linux CD distribution for system administrators, based on Debian testing. Today marks the release of version 86.1 for the x86, PowerPC, and UML/Xen platforms. PowerPC Support: The largest change for version 86.1 has been the inclusion of a PowerPC port. Finnix for PowerPC is a 115MB ISO that functions identically to the main x86 Finnix distribution. Simply insert the CD and boot while holding down the 'C' key. Finnix-PPC is well supported on G4 and NewWorld G3 hardware, including PowerMacs, PowerBooks, iBooks, iMacs and the Mac Mini. G5 support is present, but still experimental. UML/Xen Support: Finnix 86.1 can be deployed as a guest image on User Mode Linux (UML) and Xen virtualization systems." The release announcement.
Damn Small Linux 2.0
A new major version of Damn Small Linux has been released. From the changelog: "new kernel 2.4.31 and modules; new 64 cloops; new prism2 support; updated ndiswrapper support; new autodetected LT winmodems; new naim patched for TOC2 - dropped bsflite; new PCMCIA card control GUI; new floppy tool GUI; updated Firefox and with mine types for mailto and irc, bookmarks; updated pcmcia-cs to v3.2.5; fixed USB hotplug; rewrote cloop management up to 64 cloops; updated iwconfig, prism2, ndiswrapper to show IP upon connection; updated DSLpanel, added System Stats, Date, Time, and others; updated right-click icons for super user on Emelfm, Xterm, and Beaver...."
PCLinuxOS 0.92 has been released: "On behalf of the PCLinuxOS engineering team, I'm happy to announce that PCLinuxOS 0.92 is now available for download. PCLinuxOS 0.92 features an updated 2.6.12 kernel, hotplug has been moved to udev to provide faster boot times. The fabulous KDE has been updated to version 3.4.3. KOffice replaces OpenOffice.org on the live CD. OpenOffice.org 2.0 can be installed after a hard drive install. X.Org has been updated to X.Org cvs. Approximately 400 package updates brings PCLinuxOS 0.92 up to date with the latest open source applications." See the release announcement for additional information.
Topologilinux is a Slackware-based distribution designed primarily to be installed inside an existing Windows system. As of this version, it can also be installed as a standalone distribution using the standard Slackware installer. Topologilinux 6.0 has been released with the following changes: "This release is based on a 22.214.171.124 kernel and Slackware 10.2. It is now also possible to install the distribution like a traditional Linux distribution, though loopmount and colinux mode are still supported. Almost all of the packages were updated and GNOME 2.12 was included." Visit the project's home page to learn more.
Zenwalk Linux 2.0 Core
Zenwalk Core is a new edition of Zenwalk Linux; it is composed of essential system files only, without any graphical programs: "We are proud to announce the release of Zenwalk-core: a new branch of Zenwalk Linux. Zenwalk-core is a complete Zenwalk system without X applications. Zenwalk-core is intended to be used as a starting point to build a custom desktop system or a server system, and for users with limited space on their disk, or great perfectionists wanting to build their personal desktop system themselves. The idea is simple: the user downloads and install the 230MB ISO, then uses the 'netpkg' online tool to install his preferred desktop environment (XFce, KDE) and only applications he needs from the Internet repository, resulting in a fully personalized Linux system." Find more information in the release announcement.
Nonux is a Slackware-based Linux distribution, a combined live and installation CD, optimised for office use in the Netherlands and other Dutch-speaking communities. Version 2.0 has been released. This latest release is now based on Slackware Linux 10.2, with upgraded Linux kernel 126.96.36.199, Dropline GNOME desktop 2.12.1, Evolution email client 2.4.1, OpenOffice.org office suite 2.0 rc3 with Java support, and Firefox browser 1.5 rc2. The reasons for the inclusion of release candidates of both OpenOffice.org and Firefox, as well other details about the new version, are explained in the release announcement (in Dutch).
Troppix is a Debian-based live CD aimed at security professionals, penetration testers and auditors, with support for a wide range of wireless network cards. Stable version 1.2 was released over the weekend: "The current stable version of Troppix is 1.2. This release features enhanced support of many wireless chipsets (prism2, zd1211, acx111, prism54usb), updates several tools (Aircrack, Metasploit, Nessus) and improves the desktop look and feel." Read the release announcement and changelog for a more complete list of changes.
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Development and unannounced releases
- Nexenta Alpha1, the release announcement
- SimplyMEPIS 3.4-1-rc1, the release announcement
- rPath 0.99.1, the release announcement
- Underground Desktop 020, the release announcement
- Fedora Core 5-test1, the release announcement, release announcement
- MoLinux 2.0-beta2, the release announcement
- Linux From Scratch 6.1.1-pre2, the release announcement
- Lunar Linux 1.6.0-alpha1, the release announcement
- T2 Live 2.2.0-delta, the release announcement
- DesktopBSD 1.0-rc3, the release announcement
- SchilliX 0.3
- Asterisk@Home 2.0
- Xarnoppix 3.2
- ParallelKnoppix 2005-11-25
- Mutagenix 188.8.131.52
- AbulÉdu PLM-1.0
|Upcoming Releases and Announcements
Summary of expected upcoming releases
|Web Site News
Feedback: On anti-Mandriva "crusade"|
Has your DistroWatch web master become a Mandriva hater? Some of your feedback in last week's forums indicates that this is indeed how things appear to many of you.
As a maintainer of a web portal dedicated to the large and growing variety of Linux distributions and other free operating systems, I have always strived to be as impartial and objective as possible. This is not always an easy task because, after all, I am just a normal human being, complete with feelings and emotions. Like most of you, I also have a few favourite distributions that I find near-perfect, while there are several I'd rather stay away from. This is a normal process of developing likes and dislikes towards certain projects, whether based on first impressions or long-term usage. I am sure many of you have arrived at your preferred distribution by trying out several until you settled on one that met your needs.
It's only natural that during this process you also develop negative feelings towards distributions that simply did not work as advertised, failed detecting your hardware, or caused loss of time, data, etc. While I try hard not to let these failures influence my writing, it is entirely possible that some of these past events still have an effect on my choice of articles, and the message they convey. It is also possible that, deep down, I harbour a negative attitude towards Mandriva. I find it difficult to judge myself, so probably the best way to return to objectivity is to trust the opinion of those of you who have expressed criticism about my biased, anti-Mandriva reporting.
Before going any further, let me state one thing clear: I have never intended to discredit Mandriva and never meant to hurt the feelings of any of the Mandriva developers, users and fans. If it happened, it was completely unintentional and for that I sincerely apologise. I would also like to express my gratitude to those who commented on my anti-Mandriva stance: your opinions were an important alert that I am straying away from the path of impartiality and that a change in attitude is in order.
So where does my anti-Mandriva bias come from? Perhaps I really miss the old, pre-bankruptcy Mandrake Linux, with its policy of complete transparency and openness. At that time, Mandrake Linux used to be head and shoulders above the rest of the pack, especially in terms of hardware compatibility and user-friendliness. Personally, I feel that Mandriva Linux of today is a pretty average distribution, but that's my personal view which many of you will undoubtedly disagree. I do like the speed of the desktop and the support for Asian languages in Mandriva 2006, but what does it help if it doesn't work on your computer - due to a dubious architectural decision? But I am not going to say anything more on this, lest I get accused of further bias, or worse, "crusade".
So how do we solve the problem? One idea might be to get a greater variety of authors contributing to DistroWatch Weekly. Unfortunately, it is not easy to find good volunteer writers, but if you ever feel an inspiration to write up something readable (a review, comment, opinion), I will be more than happy to publish it. Any happy Mandriva users out there? Then write down your experiences and send them in! Likewise, if you have some tips or tricks that might be valuable to other readers, why not publish them here? Otherwise, if you leave all the writing to me, there is a grave possibility that your favourite distribution web site will derail from the path of objectivity from time to time.
Anyway, I won't say anything bad about Mandriva again, I promise, even if it fries my CD burn... oops... :-)
* * * * *
New distribution additions
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New on the waiting list
- Arudius. Arudius is a Linux live CD with tools for penetration testing and vulnerability analysis. It is based on Slackware (Minislack) for i386 systems and targets the computer security audience. It is released under the GNU GPL and contains only open source software. Arudius uses Fluxbox as its default window manager but most of the tools included in the distributions are command line. The distribution was developed from scratch using vanilla Minislack install and "Linux Live" scripts by the creator of SLAX. The base Minislack installation has been trimmed down to remove items like man pages and unnecessary binaries/libraries. On top of that base a large collection of network and software vulnerability software has been installed - including tools listed on SANS Top 100 list plus many other tools listed on Freshmeat.net SourceForge.net and other sites.
- CryptoBox. CryptoBox is a Debian-based live CD that boots up starting as a secure file server, using an encrypted file system. No special knowledge about cryptography or servers is required and even non-technical users can easily configure the distribution via a web browser.
- FUSS Project. The FUSS Project is an Italian initiative to build a free operating system to be used in schools around the South Tyroll region. The project has released several release candidates of "Soledad" 1.0, a Morphix-based live CD.
- ILEX. ILEX is a Debian-based Linux distribution and live CD made in Spain. It is especially suitable for deployment in secondary educational institutions.
- MiniKnoppix. MiniKnoppix is a KNOPPIX-based live CD that fits on a 200MB mini CD for easy portability.
- MythDora. MythDora is a Fedora Core and MythTV "All-In-One" CD. The CD will load a pre-configured Fedora Core 3 installation on your computer as well as install and configure MythTV. There are extras included with MythDora, such as MythBurn DVD and MythStreamTV for some extra fun.
- ULL Linux. ULL Linux is a distribution developed by Universidad de La Laguna in Spain. It is based on Kubuntu and is currently in beta testing.
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DistroWatch database summary
And with this we'll say good-bye until next Monday. We hope you've enjoyed this issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
1 • Nice. (by war on 2005-11-28 11:31:49 GMT from United States) |
Yet another excellent issue of Distrowatch Weekly!
2 • re: Libranet (by S on 2005-11-28 12:22:29 GMT from United Kingdom)
Well, if Tal does not plan to continue his father's work nor to hand the distribution to the community, then he is probably looking for someone to buy it.
Understandable. He's only 22 and now without a father, so money might be tight for him.
I never used the disto, but I know it's Debian-based and has a good centralized administration package. Maybe Ubuntu might be able to help, they would benefit from such a tool.
A lesson to learn: distro based on one (or very few) core developer are risky (Slackware). In this uncertain world, having a corporate (Mandriva, Fedora) or a well-funded foundation to back you up (Ubuntu, Debian or even Mozilla) is very important indeed for long-term survival.
3 • Critique of Mandriva and others. (by Roy Stefanussen on 2005-11-28 12:35:00 GMT from United States)
Please continue to report your Linux experiences as objectively as possible. There will always be a few that defend their chosen distro with religious fervor, but with the rapid evolution of the OS we need good feedback. If everyone just always reports every new release as perfect, Linux will die with the truth. Evolution is not pretty, but the survivors will be tough.
Keep up the good work.
4 • About Mandriva (by Robert Pogson on 2005-11-28 12:39:16 GMT from Canada)
You are right on in your statement that Linuxers' needs/wants evolve as they learn more about Linux. I did use Mandrake in the past and liked it. I was younger and more adventuresome then. I am now in a production environment where users depend on me and I need a more diverse selection of packages so I have switched to Debian. I use an AMD64 server so I may switch to Ubuntu which seems a little more responsive to issues like tuning up 32 bit apps to run in 64 bit mode (OpenOffice and NX are biggies for me on a Linux Terminal Server).
I have never felt Distrowatch was in any way biased. How can anyone reporting factually on a gazillion distros have any bias? Keep up the good work. You keep my pulse going learning about the diverse efforts going into Linux around the world. I am sure the contributors to every distro keep track of the competition on Distrowatch, too. ;-) Thanks.
5 • Re: Anti-Mandriva Bias (by Mark W. Tomlinson on 2005-11-28 12:53:43 GMT from United States)
Ladislav - I commend you you for your open and forthright comments re: your perceived anit-Mandriva bias. With Mandrake/Mandriva being one of the few distros I've never installed, I'm completely neutral as to the merits (or lack thereof) of your observations. What I applaud is your ability to step back, look at the situation objectively and admit that there may be personal feelings & opinions (heaven forfend!) involved. Good job!
One of the great things about the Linux community is choice - I went through a wide range of distros before settling on Ubuntu. One of the less-than-great things is the level of zealotry exhibited by some members of the community. While I have my own preferences and opinions, I realize that other folks have (and are entitled to) their own. To each their own...
6 • PCBSD (by Thad on 2005-11-28 12:57:09 GMT from Taiwan)
I have been using PCBSD intermitantly (if I could get java to build and azureus to run I would move to it permanently). It runs much faster than SimplyMepis on my machine.
If PCBSD could develop a gui version of ports--make install, etc., that would make it a sure winner in the BSD desktop world.
7 • Mandriva (by Andy on 2005-11-28 13:01:44 GMT from United Kingdom)
I agree with your comments last week.
Mandriva has gone from the best to an also ran. If Mandriva wants to survive it needs to get back to roots and scrap their current business model.
Club this, Club that, the line 'Support the continued development of Mandriva' it's all beginning to wear a bit thin. Especially as there are so many projects that outshine Mandriva which are driven by pure passion rather than money. Why pay for something if it's not superior. It's just doesn’t make sense, you'd have to be a fool!!
Oh, I suppose there's the 3cd free edition, what a joke that is.
I understand that every project needs funding to survive but Mandriva’s model of doing this just doesn’t fit well with the ethics of most linux users.
Get it together guys, it doesn't take a genius to predict where you’re heading.
8 • Anti-Mandriva? (by Kensai on 2005-11-28 13:11:29 GMT from Puerto Rico)
Bah, that was just mandriva fanboys who want to see the distro in every news. I don't think Ladislav has been biased against mandiva. Just that he doesn't like it as much as others. So I think the only good thin Mandriva has is PCLinuxOS. I use Arch Linux BTW.
9 • PCLOS (by rquin66 on 2005-11-28 13:16:17 GMT from Spain)
PCLOS -- English only? I have to say that although the installations is in English, you can switch locales (via KDEmenu and install, too, localized versions of KDE, etc). It worked for me in catalan (although it is not as completely polished as Mandriva).
10 • Is objectivity wrong? (by brodders on 2005-11-28 13:25:48 GMT from United Kingdom)
People who love their work, who pour their hours and energies into it... become emotionally involved. So how to give feedback which is not 100% positive?
It is important to be clear what is being commented on - them, their loved baby, or the fact that their baby seems sick (and is actually ugly too).
But expect to get the occasional bitch-slap for your trouble; that happens alas :( Plus, you must be in the wrong, a cruel person reveiled (so says the distressed owner, clinging to their wronged babe).
Don't know what the answer is to this; seems like an aspect of human nature.
Perhaps... listing on the distro information:
Core Team Size
Defect churn rates:
- number new in 1st month of distro release
- number resolved in 1st month
Security Fix Turnarounds
- number issues outstanding
- average time to clear
Again :( 'cause this looks like quite a bit of effort to keep up to date. Perhaps distro's could be encouraged to mail these to Ladislav monthly??
Just some ideas...
11 • Mandriva (by bibe on 2005-11-28 13:41:13 GMT from Italy)
I have been a windows-only web developer until 2002, when I switched to MandrakeLinux. Mandrake was a very nice Linux distro at the time, and worked perfectly for me. I was learning faster and faster, and when Mandrake (the firm) was experiencing difficulties I didn't want it to close, so I joined the Club. I was happy for the first year, but although I was getting a bit more experienced with Linux, I felt Mandrake was stepping out of its original path of a simple distribution easily installable on most hardware, and easily usable by anyone looking for a distro that "Just Works". I joined the Club for another year, but I definitely left Mandrake for Debian on Christmas 2004, and now I would highly recommend Ubuntu for anyone in the same situation I was in 2002. I think Ubuntu has become what Mandrake was until 2002/2003, the easiest GNU/Linux distro around, definitely satisfying user's needs.
I hope Mandriva can go back to its original "mission" and towards users' needs.
12 • re: Libranet (by Ethyriel on 2005-11-28 13:42:06 GMT from United States)
It's installer is incredible, and adminmenu has a solid framework but needs some serious UI work, imho. I agree, it would be worth a small sum of money for another Debian based distro to buy, but I'd hope Tal would release the source directly.
I wouldn't rule Shuttleworth out for the installer alone, but I suspect if they wanted a non-Gnome unified configuration tool they'd have written one.
On Mandriva... Ladislav, the only thing that's important is that you're honest about your opinions. People need to cope with the fact that, gasp, they might not agree. Look at the doors that were opened when the mainstream media over here in the US started to candy coat everything.
13 • If it was a car, what would it be like? (by broddersagain on 2005-11-28 13:42:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
Hi again. A passing thing which bugs me and does touch on distro worthyness.
So many distros are never finished. As soon as the next version comes out, it isn't the old one put right - it's the old one MOSTLY put right (except for the difficult bits) _plus_ a whole wedge of new stuff. Another unfinished masterpiece...
New new new ner new! Very nice, but would you buy a car which was not finished? Had great looks, nice engine - but the back seats were loose and it no mirrors?
So you wait till next time - then excitement! New new new! Now with mrrors, seats and a extra surpise - optimised superbooster power! Great, but on this model the doors do not close and there is no windscreen (goes well with all that power).
:( this sort of thing ring any bells?
14 • Mandriva/Mandrake Bias?! (by Phill Beistel on 2005-11-28 13:44:45 GMT from United States)
Background first: Been using various Linux distros since the thing came on 40 floppies (Slackware). Found Mandrake and like the look,feel and Hardware capabilities. I've used several different distros but kept comming back to Mandrake. (.2 was my favorite at the time. I even went out and 'Bought' an off the shelf version to 'Help the cause'. But they went bankrupt anyway. Then all the changes happened and Mandriva was born. To me it's too much like Red Hat in attitude. I offen wonder if old Microsoft execs joined there to help commercialize 'Everything'... But the latest free Mandriva distro 2006, is clean and works well, it even does the NDis Wrappers better than any that I've tried for wireless cards. So I guess the original Mandrake attitude still prevails in some part of Mandriva. So I say, Keep up the great work! Simplify the complexity.
15 • Mandriva (by gabbman on 2005-11-28 13:47:19 GMT from Canada)
The folks at Mandriva and their user's need not 'blame' anyone. They only have to look at the quality of the product they offer, when compared to what the end users can have at a lesser cost.
During the passed few years I used to line up waiting for there new release box sets to hit the shelves. But the quality of there product over the last 4-5 rleases I found have left me bewildered at how they even manage to survive in this environment today.
16 • wiki (by HelloWorld82 at 2005-11-28 14:19:16 GMT from Germany)
First : I like distrowatch a lot. Thanks for the hard work :-)
Perhaps add a Wiki to distrowatch, about each discussion, so that everyone can add his idea, opinions, or screenshot about a distribution - or a specific version of the distribution.
17 • Opinions and Such (by Cookingout on 2005-11-28 14:30:56 GMT from United States)
Distrowatch is wonderful and you certainly have a right to your opinion as do each of us as Distrowatch site visitors. So I want to take a moment and thank you for your hard work keeping this site up and running (although deep down I know there is some fun in your job). Keep up the good work and don't apologise. Your opinion is as important as each of ours.
We, as a community, should be thankful for what Linux and Open Source has become. We can fight over KDE vs Gnome vs XFCE etc... and we can fight over Debian vs Ubuntu vs Fedora etc... but the real battle is to keep Linux and Open Source alive. Linux and Open Source has and will continue to open doors for people in poor countries, people with disabilities and of course common every day people like us.
In the light of any conflict, we need to pull together and promote Linux and Open Source at the core level. So all of us must keep giving away those Knoppix, Slax, Puppy (or whoever's) live CDs, The Open CD for Windows die hards and supporting newbies as they bring linux PCs online all over the world.
18 • Mandriva (by Halil I CELIK on 2005-11-28 14:43:16 GMT from Turkey)
Mandrake was my first linux distro. Having trouble in internet connection sharing on Mandrake in 2002, i tried and used other distros: Suse, fedora and finally Ubuntu. Recently i installed free Mandriva 2006. It works well. Thanks to its developers.
19 • Mandriva (by Anonymous on 2005-11-28 14:56:41 GMT from United States)
Well, I am a Mandriva fan (everything works as it should, and 2006 is almost perfect), and I've never felt an anti-mandriva bias here in Distrowatch. I've felt it in Osnews, in Slashdot, but here, never...
I am a bit irritated to unfair/clueless comments, like "it fries my CD burn" (I know it was a joke in your column, but some actually still thinks it was Mandriva's fault and Mandriva was the only concerned), but I haven't seen many in Distrowatch.
The thing that bothers me is that I still don't get the ubuntu fahion, to me, there's nothing new compared to Mandriva...
20 • Merging PC-BSD/Desktop-BSD (by tomboy1983 on 2005-11-28 15:08:08 GMT from Austria)
IMO they should merge. i know there has been alot of rejective discussion and reservation on both sides, but as i see it:
they have the same goals (easy BSD for desktops), both have great different tools to gain advantage from and they already have enough competition (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, DragonflyBSD, ...).
I think they do a great job, but somehow it seems to me they are both trying to reinvent the wheel on their own (also like a bunch of linux distros).
Yeah, competition and diversity is great, i know, but do we *really* need more than a handful of (not overwhelmingly) different projects for every single task? Or 361 (!) linux distributions (all active ones in the distrowatch database)?
Maybe i'm wrong, but i fail to see the bigger meaning of that...
21 • good one ladislav (by henry on 2005-11-28 15:19:31 GMT from United Kingdom)
That's the right attitude - confront accusations of bias openly and calmly, with respect.
For tomboy1983: bsd is relatively reinvention-of-the-wheel free right now. it's actually quite a strong point i suppose... i personally think that the right way forward is for them to share the cool stuff like tools they create - gui config type stuff. outside of that, in terms of the details of distro builds, i really believe in diversity - it makes life harder for hackers because they can't count on a certain few things being constant just because they detected bsd in a portscan.
22 • If it was a car, what would it be like? (by Ethyriel on 2005-11-28 15:24:30 GMT from United States)
LFS, my friend, LFS
Seriously, the only way you're going to get exactly what you want is to build it up from scratch and then not touch it (beyond tweaks, no major syncs) until you're prepared to do all the work over again. Luckily there are some distros like Arch, Slackware, Debian, and Gentoo which aid in this without much compromise so you don't have to go through the LFS thing (unless you want to!)
I agree, though, it would be nice if there were more user friendly distros that were willing to compromise the bleeding edge for polish. I'm not sure how much we'll see this before we get better hardware detection scripts, though. Keep your eyes on the Arch community for hwd and hwdetect, combined with a lean desktop oriented kernel they can be potent.
23 • Mandriva (by Halil I CELIK on 2005-11-28 15:35:17 GMT from Turkey)
Mandrake was my first linux distro. Having trouble in internet connection sharing on Mandrake in 2002, i tried and used other distros: Suse, fedora and finally Ubuntu. Recently i installed free Mandriva 2006. It works well. Thanks to its developers.
24 • Mandriva (by Gino SATTA on 2005-11-28 15:44:02 GMT from Italy)
I had the same problem Halil I CELIK had. Userspace iptables were not in sync with kernel (if I understood well) and coudn't do nat for the local network. It was a real pain. I had to configure Squid as a proxy before solving the problem and i've lost a lot of time. And this is not the only "surprise" i had upgrading from one release to another.
I'm a long-term Mandriva user and still keep using 2006, which is - i think - a better realease then the last few Mandrivas and a good distro too. But i'm not at ease with the commercial policy of club this and club that, and very concerned each time i decide to upgrade the distro (you can never know what is going to happen).
If i didn't switch to other distros i've tried (Ubuntu, Knoppix, SimplyMepis, FreeBSD) is because the last thing i need now is to have to finetune the distro to my particular needs (a work i did in many years of Mandriva's use), but sooner or later...
I think that you have the right to criticize, especially when you raise problems that are very widely experienced by other users and i appreciate very much your work.
25 • Mandriva Whiner's- Lighten up! (by jared on 2005-11-28 15:47:50 GMT from United States)
This is bogus! Ladislav you should be able to express whatever opinion you want. It is one of my biggest pet peeves when the majority is subjected to a small minority, just because they yell the loudest. It pisses me off when it happens in government and it pisses me off when it happens elsewhere. Just because a few avid Mandriva fanatics disagree with your opinion you feel you need to apologize? There's no need to. You stated an opinion, which seems to be justified by the comments last week and this week because several others feel the same way. We can't cater to a handful of people that are over-sensitive about their distro. I've been a long time Mandrake/Mandriva user and have bought several off the shelf box sets, though I now use PCLinuxOS. To the few Mandriva users who've bitched and complained because Ladislav doesn't give a gushing review of your distro, lighten up! Ladislav shuffles through hundreds of different distro's and I feel has a good understanding of strengths and weakness of different distro's. Yes, it's still his opinion, but one that comes from alot of exposure to different distro's. Ladislav has given critizism towards most of the distro he reviews. Just in this weekly he compared PC-BSD to DesktopBSD and stated DesktopBSD had a slight edge over PC-BSD, but I don't hear the PC-BSD users bitching and complaining. With Ladislav's exposure to so many distros, I rely upon to to give me an honest comparison. So, Ladislav continue doing what you are doing and Mandriva whiners just give it a rest, the world doesn't revolve around you, Ladislav is just doing his job.
26 • RE to #9 (by Phantasmathos on 2005-11-28 16:05:02 GMT from El Salvador)
Please explain more how to do it. I need to test it. If work I will switch me to it.
Thanks in advace.
27 • Gnubuntu :P (by Piotr on 2005-11-28 16:11:23 GMT from Poland)
Ubuntu doesn't have rar (free-rar is trash) and wmv codecs... what is left for Gnubuntu ? kde, java, flash?
28 • Libranet & Ubuntu (by Penguin on 2005-11-28 16:12:15 GMT from Finland)
I think it might indeed be a good idea for Ubuntu to buy Libranet. Libranet has done some things better than Ubuntu, and Adminmenu is a good program that shouldn't be thrown away. Well, Adminmenu may not be a pure GNOME app, but remember that neither is Ubuntu purely a GNOME only distro either. There is lots and lots of non-GNOME software shipped with every release of Ubuntu, and there's also Xubuntu, Kubuntu etc.
29 • Mandriva review not out of line. (by ChiJoan on 2005-11-28 16:12:55 GMT from United States)
Your review would be very useful to owners of the same hardware, it would save them time of download, or money on the CD/DVD-R, or other costs involved. There is a balance derived from looking at all the reviews of a given distro, which you make available on their page, so don't sugar-coat your reviews. I, and others, appreciate the facts you share with us.
Alas, I myself have had to switch to mini-distros and LiveCDs for their better support of older hardware for the most part. These programmers that save countless PCs from a premature death deserve much thanks. When I tried Mandrake Move awhile back, I was not impressed as I recall.
On another note, I had to fire up my old 8mhz XT DOS PC lately to copy to a 720K floppy some old resumes written in Professional Write, and I just had to pick ASCII format and rename the extension to today's .TXT format. Thank you, OpenOffice you made my day.
Thanks for another good start to the new week,
30 • PCLOS (by guhappy on 2005-11-28 16:54:22 GMT from United States)
Favorite line from this DistroWeekly..."PCLinuxOS 0.92 - it just works."
Mandrake/Mandriva was the distro to recommend to newbies as it was recommended to me back then when version 8 came out. I'm sure in one way or another it still is, but distros like PCLOS (my personal fav right now), SimplyMEPIS, and others have stepped up to the plate. So, now newbies (like me still) have a choice and isn't that what Linux is all about. :-)
31 • Libranet (by Garret on 2005-11-28 17:21:43 GMT from United States)
It would of course be great if Shuttleworth were willing to spend some money on Libranet, the tools would be welcome. I don't know that the Libranet work is actually needed by Ubuntu though, and in many aspects would be taking a step back, at least from where they are headed IMHO.
I understand that Tal most likely feels he needs to get some kind of return for the energy, time and money spent on developing Libranet over the years, but I don't know if that's being realistic. Much of the industry has passed them by. In my opinion the best chance that Libranet has of surviving and not fading away, is to create an Open Source project up to support it, much like the Ubuntu model. Libranet has some distinct advantages over how Ubuntu started, just because of a long and impressive history. Of course the disadvantages are lack of funds and increased competition.
Done right, it's got the makings of a great Open Source project with a lot of steam, that would eventually lead to an income for Tal's company. Done wrong, it fades away and becomes a memory.
32 • We WANT your opinions, Ladislav (by DaveW on 2005-11-28 17:40:23 GMT from United States)
That's why we're here instead of reading the hundreds of other review and fanboy sites all over the Net. Somebody said your opinion is as good as anybody's. I think that's not quite true: as far as I'm concerned your opinion on distros is better than mine and better than most peoples'. Most of us don't spend our time keeping up with the newest information, testing distros, and explaining their pluses and minuses. I can get basic "unbiased" info on a distro's installers, package systems, architectures, etc., all over the Net. What I can't get, and what keeps me looking forward to Monday, is the OPINIONS and evaluations of smart, honest, and informed people like you, Ladislav, and Robert.
So don't let these whiny kids get to you or change anything about the site. If they have anything substantial to say, there's room here for them to say it. But you'll notice they have nothing but whining and personal attacks, the sure proof that they have nothing worth listening to. Maybe you can open a kindergarden section for all the fanboys, whether of Mandriva, Ubuntu, or whatever to get together for mindless whining and self-pity. And let the grownups continue to evaluate in the real world, helping FOSS grow and prosper by praising the great and exposing the inadequate.
Keep up the great work, Ladislav, and don't let the kiddies get you down. We need you just the way you are.
33 • Keep coming back to Mandriva (by pp on 2005-11-28 17:56:02 GMT from United Kingdom)
For 3 years now, Mandriva has been THE uncontested winner on my desktop. Haven't upgraded to 2006, and probably will not - not all releases are equally good.
Wherever I have looked, I have always seen more praise than criticism of Mandriva/Mandrake. I really don't believe this site has any bias against any distro. People report what they experience - why would they do anything else?! If you don't like it, tell it!
BTW, make sure you check out the next Arch Linux, whenever it comes out!
34 • Mandriva & Libranet (by Misty on 2005-11-28 17:58:48 GMT from United States)
I definitely don' t think you were out of line about Mandriva. The truth hurts; it really isn't as good as it used to be, nor is it as good as some of the other newbie-friendly distros like Ubuntu, Xandros, etc. Even before the name change they were getting awfully commercial, digging into the user's pockets and trying to charge for the extra goodies without bothering to tell us what the extra goodies were. And now.... who needs them? Only the poeple who are still loyalist Mandriven, apparently. If they don't straighten up they're going to lose everything.
As for Libranet - well, I know I'm going to offend people - but I kinda have a similar attitude towards them too. I tried Libranet. I tried Xandros. Xandros was just as good and costed half what Libranet did. Now both are a bit better, but Libranet's price has gone up to $90 while Xandros is free (except for the business edition, which most home users don't need unless you really want Sun's Star Office). Support? When I had a question I just got referred to their forums. Big deal, Xandros has a good firum too; the folks there are just as friendly & helpful as over at Libranet. And the adminmenu? Handy but not direly needed; I can get around pretty well in the Xandros version of the KDE control center. And why would it need to be open sourced? Others (as in not me, since I'm not a programmer) can code a program that does what the adminmenu does from scratch and call it something different. It shouldn't even be a huge project, not like your own Linux distro.
As you might've guessed, Xandros is the distro I recommend for newbies, since it's a breeze to install, easy to use, free and, as for adding more software, apt-get is easy to learn. Now I know this was a bit insulting, but I simply can't help that. Better is in the eye of the beholder, I know, but Libranet is truly not much better, if at all, than Xandros; everything that's suppsed to be great about Libranet applies equally to Xandros except the adminmenu which isn't all *that* great. In short, for $90 I thought it should've been a lot better than Xandros OCE but it isn't. So why were people paying for it anyway? Mainly, I think, reputation, as not that many Linux-newbies I've talked to have even heard of Xandros. Seems like more I've chatted with on freenode have heard of Libranet than Xandros.
Come to think of it, I think that's a lot of Mandriva's problem - they're depending too much on reputation and not trying to make their distro as good as it could be. And as several others are definitely better now (hardware detection, no nagging for money, etc) they could definitely get better. Question is, are they going to try? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Sorry for the extra-long post.
35 • Libranet (by IMQ on 2005-11-28 17:59:20 GMT from United States)
IMHO, the best option to keep the spirit of Libranet alive is to turn the project over to the community. Tal has done all he could at this point but the project is not going anywhere now without the help.
Libranet was great when Linux on Desktop was a struggle for new users. It had its unique features with Adminmenu to ease the configuration of hardware and software. However, much progress has been made with all the distros currently available the public. Hardware auto-detection and auto-configuration have improved significantly, and continued to do so. Many distros now have built-in control panel of some sort to assist the users administering his systems. And they are gettting better and better with each release.
I don't believe buying out Libranet will add significant value to any major distros.
But again, it's just my humble opinion.
36 • Libranet (by /fred on 2005-11-28 18:04:18 GMT from United States)
As an ardent supporter of Libranet, I was sorry to hear about the decision being made by Tal. However, I understand his position and his desire to get on with his own life. His blog stated it all "I am no businessman,.......". It takes a great deal to be where Jon was: businessman, programmer, developer, marketing, etc.... It is a lot of work, no doubt there.
I would like to see a large corporation support Libranet, if nothing else but to keep it from decaying, as all distro's do after a time unattended. Libranet 3.0 was the first of 6 distributions to automatically recognize and install everything my ThinkPad G41 required: I did nothing but read Linux Format and change the install disks.I have used Linux for five+ years and found this one distribution to be worthy of saving.
I certainly hope a community can evolve around this if no one steps to the proverbial "plate". Though this is all my IMHO, those of us who use it in many aspects of our computing lives know it's true value.
37 • Thank you Mandriva elite (by jared on 2005-11-28 18:15:35 GMT from United States)
Thanks to the Mandriva users who have been mature and reasonable. Ladislav, I hope their comments have shown that most Mandriva users are not whiners and that you'll heed their encouragement to keep the weekly as is.
38 • no anti-mandriva bias (by Matt Marian on 2005-11-28 19:05:38 GMT from United States)
I have been coming ot this site for a while. thanks for all your hard work and honest opinions. I have used mandrake 9.0,9.2, 10.0, 10.1
I personally have had mixed results from 2005le and 2006. They did not work well on my equipment. I personally feel this is a release issue and not a distro issue, I guess if it coninues then I would consider it indicative of the distro. There is nothing wrong with stating problems or your experiences. I would say chances are, you are reflecting what some people have experienced. As with my experience with Mandrake/Mandriva I have liked some versions over others and, since I liked the early versions, when things change in ways that appear to be less than stellar, you have to tell what you experience.
I love Mandrake for what it enabled me to do with linux , I don't love the last two releases. I still use 10.2 on my big box .,FC4 for a spcific purpose , and adios live and puppy linux on a few random boxes on the network. I say that to emphasize that, while have always really liked Mandrake/Mandriva,I have found other tools in the workshed that let me get certain things done. thanks for your good work .
39 • If it was a car, what would it be like? (by Mika Hack inen ;-) on 2005-11-28 19:10:00 GMT from Italy)
Of course like FIAT !!!
40 • distrowatch weekly:mandriva issue (by mainer111 on 2005-11-28 19:34:05 GMT from United States)
ladislav: you rock!!,i feel you are in no way anti-anything,but open-minded and knowledgeable and insightful. enough said,keep up the great work!!. the mainer; maine,state,u.s. ArchLinux 0.7.1,debian 3.1.daily linux user for 1.5 yrs,1st distro tried was Red Hat 5.2
41 • RE: #34 • Mandriva & Libranet (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-11-28 19:43:48 GMT from Italy)
I don't believe one can compare Xandros and Libranet. Rather the comparison should be between Xandros and Linspire, as both are geared towards newbies.
Libranet is for more advanced users, people who want to use Debian Proper but are happy that Libranet gives them a better installer and a set of tools like Adminmenu.
I do agree about the price, though. $90 is a lot of money to ask when most other distros are available for free or for about 50 or 60 dollars maximum.
I believe one of the main reason for the current Libranet situation is exactly that: the high price.
42 • DesktopBSD (by RobNyc on 2005-11-28 19:58:29 GMT from United States)
I gotta vote for DesktopBSD distro of the week!!!
I hope DBSD and PCBSD just get together because it'll just make BSD stronger and more popular..
I don't like PCBSD pbi. But DBSD and PCBSD are both fast systems, I have DBSD rc3 installed for the past 3 days and its great. I think they should unite and keep it the way DBSD is but whatever is clever please dont screw it up !!!
This is great, an easy to install, easily to maintain , solid bsd :)
ALso.. I'm voting for the following distro(S) that I am a fan of ..
Kororaa, Phaeronix, Conrad (Gentoo)
PCBSD (I prefer DBSD) though but PCBSD has good stuff except pbi.
43 • PCLOS (by RobNyc on 2005-11-28 19:58:57 GMT from United States)
SOrry to forget you baby.. The distro I'm on "PCLINUXOS"
44 • mandriva (by terry lynch on 2005-11-28 20:04:33 GMT from Ireland)
ladislav, keep up the good work, you speak honestly, from the heart, best wishes. from terry.
45 • anti Mandriva bias just fine - but I love Mandriva (by JeffS on 2005-11-28 20:51:36 GMT from United States)
First, Ladislav has every right to express his opinion, good or bad, about any Linux distro. If he had a bad experience with Mandriva, so be it.
That said, Mandrake/Mandriva has been the best distro for me. I've tried RH7.3 and 9.0, FC2 and 4, Mandrake/Mandriva, Mepis, Ubuntu/Kubuntu, Knoppix, Kanotix, Damn Small, Puppy, pure Debian, Slax, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, PCBSD and FreeSbie (for a taste of BSD), and other minor distros.
Of all of those, Mandrake/Mandriva has been the best for me. Mandriva has worked on all of my hardware flawlessly (I've used Linux on a an IBM Thinkpad, HP Pavilion, Gateway, eMachines, Dell Inpsiron, and a custom PC from a local dealer). Mandriva has delivered by far the best installer, and by far the best GUI config tools. Also, Mandriva has been one of the fastest (along with pure Debian) that I've run on my hardware. Finally, for my tastes, Mandriva has looked the best, by far - I really like the Galaxy theme.
Contrast that with Ubuntu, who many here are saying is better than Mandriva. My experience has been just the oposite. Ubuntu has failed to configure video properly on every machine I've tried it on. I either had to run the Debian config tool from the command line (sometimes a frustrating task), or I had to use Mepis to save it's X config to hard drive (an embarassing crutch for Ubuntu). Ubuntu's installer, while functional and easy to use, is quite primitive and takes eons to install (in spite of the relative minscule amount of software in the default install). Also, Ubuntu, quite frankly, was quite limited in it's out of the box functionality, and required lot's of downloading/tweaking in order to get a satisfying desktop experience (and programmer experience - very limited programming tools are installed by default).
Also, contrast my Mandriva experience with my PCLinuxOS experience. While all my Mandrake/Mandriva installs were flawless, my PCLinuxOS install attempt locked up after going for two hours. So, in my experience, the PCLinuxOS installer is completely worthless. It was, however, a nice looking live CD, with many great Mandrake features.
So, everyone has their different experiences with different distros on different hardware. But judging by Mandriva's continuing popularity in the DistroWatch rankings, in spite of an anti-Mandriva bias here and on other sites like OSNews and Slashdot, Mandriva must be doing something right,for it to keep pleasing it's users and maintaining it's popularity (and profitability as a company).
So Ladislav can have his anti-Mandriva bias, and other posters can continue to bash Mandriva (because it's fashionable to do so). But Mandriva still remains a great distro, and continues to please the vast majority of it's users.
46 • My take on Mandriva (by Spanish Buzzard on 2005-11-28 21:47:36 GMT from United States)
I took offense to some of the comments directed at (then) Mandrake, but had to admit they were right on the money. Like many here, I went to Mandrake after starting with RedHat. Mandrake 7.2 was my favorite, everything after that seem to go downhill.
I still love the Mandrake (Mandriva) GUI Tools. But I hate the way the distro is run. Mandrake used to be completely free and we, the users gladly paid money to keep it running.
I remember that some idiot they bought in decided to waste the funds promoting "e learning." Then they cut their staff to include a very helpful young man named "civilie" or something to that affect (Hey I am an old man, cut me some slack!).
Since then they always seem to get close, but just never seem to make the mark. I truly hope they get their act together and can somehow bring back that wonderful community they once had.
47 • RE: #45 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-11-28 22:08:44 GMT from Italy)
"So, in my experience, the PCLinuxOS installer is completely worthless."
I share absolutely the same kind of experience. In any case, if I must use a rpm distro, the choice can only be between SUSE and Mandriva
I also share similar feelings about Ubuntu
Give me Debian or a *compatible* distro: Kanotix or Libranet. Pity that the future of Libranet is so uncertain. But Tal said yesterday that he has no plans to shut down the forum or the mailing list, and this must mean something.
48 • Mandriva (by titiv69 on 2005-11-28 22:44:53 GMT from France)
Ladislav your opinion is yours, if you could take the weekly risk to inform people is as well to have an opinion.
Where could be the point to get such or such distro without an opinon, right or wrong the success story of distrowatch was not cause of the politicly-correct but based on opinion you share with thousand of readers!!!
Those feeling incomfortable may have to think a bit more with the chance we have here to debate it's called "libre arbitre".
Yes I was mandrake-addict and since 9 series it goes where I don't want to go with my Linux-box, And I find in Ubuntu the same pleasure I hat at this old good time.
Do I have to be ashamed of it ? No cause as many "Zelot " here, Mandriva management don't want to see the truth:
Mandriva is now an ordinary distrib too expensive for what they have to offer.
49 • Distrowatch reviews.. (by John Hoogendam on 2005-11-28 22:59:55 GMT from United States)
Distrowatch is totally unbiased, the reviews are professionally done and written
I wish there were more websites out there that would analyze all the Linux applications coming to market.
I tried earlier versions of Mandrake, but was not very impressed in general.
Ubuntu is becoming the king of the all Linux distros.
Keep up the good work....
50 • mandriva is a toy (by Brabantium Phero on 2005-11-28 23:19:33 GMT from United Kingdom)
the linux OS landscape is a big one, from embedded to server, from special purpose to live-CD.
mandriva has aimed at home enthusiasts who love the latest shiny things - with less concern for staility, trust or managability. i've used it at home for years. but never for production servers.
the right tool for the righ job.
51 • No subject (by Ben on 2005-11-28 23:29:30 GMT from Australia)
So, to summarize all of the comments so far:
Ladislav, keep doing what you're doing. You rock.
Bye bye libranet.
DesktopBSD and PC-BSD really should have babies together.
Linux is apparently some kind of car. This is confusing - I thought Linux was supposed to be a sort of a bicycle, and SCO Unix was the car. Now Linux is a car? What's the deal there? Anyway didn't Microsoft just kill Linux or something? (Well that's what I've been reading at all the reputable sites).
PS Debian is the king. Long live the king.
52 • Re: #51 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-11-28 23:43:26 GMT from Italy)
"PS Debian is the king. Long live the king."
Very well said.
53 • ethyriel had it right with the car analogy (by StolenNomenclature on 2005-11-29 00:49:37 GMT from Australia)
The guy who posted the comment that distros are never finished had it right.
Too many people are simply jumping on the bandwagon with a "I must have my OWN distro out there" mentality, without having anything useful to contribute. Simply fork a current distro, make up a name and logo (or have a competition so that some other poor sod does it for you) and you are now a Linux guru with his/her own distro and a place in the Linux hall of fame. Yuk!
Rather than making much real progress Linux is simply going round in ever decreasing circles, simply finding new ways of doing the same thing rather than breaking any new ground. 10 Desktops, 6 word processors, 8 web browsers, 15 media players (none of which work properly), etc.. etc..
One day someone will come out with a distro that is not just a lot of fluff and an egotists wet dream. I want that one!
54 • Objectivity (by Bill on 2005-11-29 02:00:18 GMT from United States)
Ladislav, I have read Distrowatch for years and I am convinced I have never found a more objective site than yours. Your concern about the Mandriva comments is impressive, your response classy, and you have nothing to worry about.
Thanks for a great site.
55 • Gnubuntu... I want my eggs well done please!!! (by iMoron on 2005-11-29 02:03:19 GMT from Puerto Rico)
I feel that the name needs to be more simplified... so instead of GNUbuntu it should be:
I mean, so it is only one letter shorter... but it is easier to pronounce... althoug, maybe that should be the name of their Genome based distro (now Ubuntu) to Gubuntu (like in the KDE one, Kubuntu, or the Xfe, Xubuntu one)... And maybe use the "humanity to others" name (Ubuntu) as the GNU version... ...!!!... err so am making things more complex than need be...
About the Mandriva scramble... (lets add salt) ...
I don't like it because it is called Mandriva... ugg... Man... I like Woman, so they need to change that and add lots of fisical educational wallpapers... :) so it should be Womandriva... yea baby, yea... AM BEEN FUNNY... don't take that serious...
Why are this acusations that are comming tours Ladislav... I have been aware that there are many Mandriva fans that are been to religious with their distro... and it is all because they don't like what Ladyslav and others have commented with his experience with the OS... As I see it... Mandriva's Club is becomming worce that the Linspire CNR (althoug they difer on what they are)... And CNR is a good service for what it intends on doing domb/retard friendly... The Club, well, it need to evolve... maybe scrap it and sell the distro... or add some service that will generate money on the short term... actually... thats the problem with the Clup... it feels like if it should have been used as a shot term thing... but they have strech it to far... that plus the evident problems with the OS... Problems that they will fix (hopefully) in time, as soon as they listen a bit more to the users... it is not easy to manage/create an OS... and Mandriva has done many gread things... But..., shit happens... clean it, don't perfume it...
56 • Merging DesktopBSD/PC-BSD? (by koyi on 2005-11-29 02:16:04 GMT from Japan)
I don't think they should merge, at least not at this time.
Although I haven't tried both of them, but I did have a favour for FreeBSD. And the centralised ports system is always one of its best feature. So, as long as ports can be used unchaged on both DBSD and PCBSD, I don't see the problem to have them compete and benefit from that competition. This way, I am sure that more new ideas will be born.
57 • DesktopBSD (by Eldados on 2005-11-29 03:22:24 GMT from Australia)
very interesting indeed! it would be a much better idea to emerge with PC-BSD use all the best parts, share knowledge and bring a true BSD to the desktop! though I do support Variety, how many “same same but different” flavoured of Debian or RedHat can we have? Imagine if distros get together to create an amazing Linux OS that will knock the socks off Redmond…
I get tired of the same distro with another packaging.
58 • Desktop Linux that Just Works (by Steve Graham on 2005-11-29 04:16:26 GMT from United States)
I'm looking for a desktop Linux system where everything just works. Mine seems to do most things well. It just seems to be missing a few things here or there. Such as a message when trying to stream FM music through Real that the codec is too old. Or trying to delete xine to get the latest version and not being able to get it completely deleted. Maybe I just want to try a new version.
Anyways, any nominations? Seems to me I heard one mentioned in recent weeks where everything just worked, right "out of the box".
59 • RE:#58 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-11-29 06:37:19 GMT from Italy)
>>Anyways, any nominations? Seems to me I heard one mentioned in recent weeks where everything just worked, right "out of the box"<<
Everybody will have different ideas. Somebody wrote about "distro tsunamis" last week, and the last one seems to be PClinuxOS, which for me is no good because the installer fails every time.
Many will mention Mepis, but will probably tell you to wait until the next stable.
Except for Libranet, which is not available, my personal favourites are Kanotix and SUSE (and Debian Proper, but that is very much a "hands-on" distro)
However both SUSE and Kanotix don't support multimedia out of the box very well.
In both cases it is only a matter of adding extra entries to your apt sources.list.
Additionally SUSE 10.0 has been a total failure with my hardware (but others report good results) and Kanotix hasn't had a final release since June. But you could try 2005-04 RC17.
60 • More about #58 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-11-29 06:58:07 GMT from Italy)
And BTW, if your hardware isn't too bleeding edge, you could try GenieOS, which is Debian Sarge, made easier to install and with most of the needed plugins.
Once you become more confident you could upgrade everything to Etch/testing.
61 • Summerize too !!! (by Marc on 2005-11-29 08:35:50 GMT from Canada)
- Ladislav you have any rights, keep the good work !
- Libranet will be bought !!
- Gubuntu is better than Gnubuntu
- My dream came true, we will have a Xubuntu.
(told you in DDW# 94)
- No merging for DesktopBSD/PC-BSD
- Distros are buggy and also free so pick one and help !!!
- Mandriva is the best multilangual distro for KDE
- Ubuntu is the best multilangual distro for Gnome
62 • Thanks again Ladislav (by Bill Savoie on 2005-11-29 17:25:07 GMT from United States)
DistroWatch is a path to our new future, where working knowledge, trumps old family wealth. As hardware costs fall, and virus protection under windows becomes increasingly difficult, people who understand open source will find improving economic opportunities. Bootable Demonstration CD's with web based applications can convince business owners to switch to open source solutions. A working solution is a bypass for a college degree, a resume, and a slave's history of sacrifice.
We live in a fast moving new age. The age of open source. Those in political power here in the USA have figured out how to manipulate television and radio. Open source will hit them blind. Open source changes everything. George Orwell wrote the book 1984 where-in books were burned to keep people enslaved, but Open Source trumps that vision. Open source helps business, as well as helping the diversity of information, thus making it possible for wisdom and intelligence to succeed over fascism.
“And while ev’rybody knelt to pray, the drifter did escape.” – Bob Dylan
Ladislav, you are the pied piper of this age. Thanks for helping us turn the corner. The world will not be the same again. (don’t take it personally, cause it will screw up your head, just rest in emptiness and be in peace. Then chop wood and carry water.)
63 • mandriva (by Peter Alcibiades on 2005-11-29 17:49:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
Must say, I find mandriva just fine. Been using it since about 8, and while it had a bit of a difficult time around 10.1, I just upgraded to 2006 and it seems very stable. I also have done a clean install of 2006, and it works flawlessly. Comes with all the software you will ever need. Burns cds with no problem. Recognises any drive the minute you plug it in. Super easy to add the contributions repository for everything else. My only slight reservation is that it has shipped something less than 2.0 of OO, but otherwise, what's the problem? It is one distribution you can safely recommend and know that there will not be any glitches. By comparison, I have really struggled with the Debian based distros on recognition of flash memory and even diskettes. Suse 9.2, which I have also installed, is just dreadful when it comes to installations. Yesterday, for instance, I was being told that te_latex could not be installed without some other bit of latex, which in turn could nto be installed without te-latex. Round and around you go until you finally get one or the other to go in. All I was trying to do was install Lyx, which comes with Mandriva. YaST is back in this bizarre world of try an install, then write down what is needed, then try one of them, then write down what it needs.... Urpmi through the drak wizards is a joy by comparison. By the way, going to apt-rpm on mandriva is a snap. I dread to think how one will have to do this on Suse.
You don't realise until you or someone close to you uses one of these distros every day, but really, Mandriva is better. No comparison. So, I had to wait a couple of weeks after first release to get a free copy. Doesn't bother me in the least.
64 • Linux Format (by Scott Wilson on 2005-11-29 20:48:37 GMT from United States)
I had to wait in a Hospital waitng room on Monday, My Dad was having an operation, I stopped by a local Book store and found a couple copies of Linux Format Magazine. Remembering that Ladislav mentioned that Distrowatch is being featured in the magazine, I bought two of them to read while my dad was under the the knife.
These are great magazines, I wish the States had magazine like Linus Format.
Each MAgazine came with either a set of CD's or a DVD attached. One Magazine was dedeicated to installing Fedora Core 4 with 4 cd's attached to the magazine. Inside a step by step process on how to install and configure Fedora Core 4.
The other LFM had a dvd attached that had Knoppix 4 as well a host of open source programs and articles inside the mag on how to use each program.
Only complaint it was about $38.00 for both magzines with tax. To subscribe to LFM is going to cost around $85.00 US dollars.
My Dad is fine, Operation went great, But this magazine is great!
65 • BSDs and Linuxes (by wuschel_72 on 2005-11-29 23:17:24 GMT from Germany)
...biased ?? I don't think so. Everybody who writes rewiews of any kind will always write his opinion. As long as he's fair and not aggressive... no need to apologize!
I've been using Linux and BSD for some years, far from saying that I was a pro of any kind. I started with SuSE 6.0 because I was fed up with Win NT, followed SuSE up to 8.3, switched to FreeBSD for a change while still having Win2K in dual boot for some apps that I needed, and now I'm experimenting with several OS on rather antique hardware... (Will be testing DBSD 1.0RC3 soon)
IMHO there is still need of a distro that is really easy to install, so I greatly appreciate the idea of DesktopBSD, PCLinuxOS and others!
On the other hand, what good are a 361 distros that differ only in details, but are not exchangeable in terms of binaries or paths? Join forces and "give Gates no chance"
In addition to comment #13: Just what I think! It's not the newest feature that counts, but a stable and reliable system! My recommendation would be Debian or FreebSD, if I had enough time and knew enough to configure those on my own =-(
(That's why I'm running PCBSD, works fine also on a AMD K6 233MHz with 256MB RAM)
Needless to say, that once a NOOB can install and run a system, he will learn about the basics and more ... (like myself) ...if he fails to install the OS of choice, he will remain "enslaved in Redmond's Dungeon" ;-)
For PCBSD, I cannot follow the idea of the pbi system: why re-invent the wheel, if the BSD ports-system is perfectly running?
I think that DBSD and PCBSD should not merge too soon - we'll see which concept is going to succeed. As long as the underlying BSD is pure FreeBSD, you can learn the basics and you need no tools any more....
thanks for your work, you have the right to say your opinion without need to apologize! Keep up the good work.
66 • stability and useability (by Distrowatch Reader on 2005-11-29 23:45:12 GMT from United States)
I currently am trying Pclinuxos so far wow. Many of the common gotcha's are gone.
My scanner scans my printer prints. Every application from Texstars update site works for ME!
Texstar is so clever in his implementation. I challenge every one to try it .
For example Java sometimes dies in Suse 10.0 . Texstar placed the Java lib's in a place that is amazing. I don't know why I didn't think of it.
67 • Desktop Linux that Just Works (by Steve Graham on 2005-11-30 02:22:35 GMT from United States)
I'm looking for a desktop Linux system where everything just works. Mine seems to do most things well. It just seems to be missing a few things here or there. Such as a message when trying to stream FM music through Real that the codec is too old. Or trying to delete xine to get the latest version and not being able to get it completely deleted. Maybe I just want to try a new version.
Anyways, any nominations? Seems to me I heard one mentioned in recent weeks where everything just worked, right "out of the box".
68 • To Scott (by Leo on 2005-11-30 03:17:17 GMT from United States)
Thanks for sharing your experience with LinuxFormat. And more
importantly, I am so glad your dad is ok after the operation.
69 • Some thoughts on open source (by Mr. Pink on 2005-11-30 04:42:13 GMT from United States)
The only thing worse than flying is open source code
70 • BSD etc (by Brian on 2005-11-30 05:01:33 GMT from Hong Kong)
I would have loved to try BSD in any flavour - but just could not get internet connection. Using PPPoE is easy in linux ... just pppoeconf and hey! Net connection. Not so with BSDs .... I just hope they can improve on that (or at least have sensible information for people like myself, who find the man pages hard to digest)
71 • RE: #70 • BSD etc (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-11-30 06:12:00 GMT from Italy)
Same problem here, and many more.
When you have "difficult" hardware you have better chances that it is supported in linux.
Besides there is another problem: FreeBSD and every derivative have always messed up badly my partion table. FreeBSD users are "in denial"
Oh well, I guess it will be years before there will be a BSD desktop comparable to linux, if ever (of course I am not conting OS X ) :-)
72 • WARNING MYTH DORA (by Henk de Jong on 2005-11-30 08:49:20 GMT from Netherlands)
As far as I can analyse is the installation of MYTH-Dora VERY DANGEROUS. After tryin to install Myth Dora the installatiion proces mentioned that my PC was not suitablle for Myth Dora.
But all my partitions are lost. Empty harddisks!!!! Grub not working
NO Warnings during the installation!!
Is this a virus? Or is it just plain stupidity?
73 • Desktop Linux that Just Works (by John on 2005-11-30 15:28:48 GMT from United States)
"I'm looking for a desktop Linux system where everything just works."
There a a few you could try. PCLinuxOS is a good place to start. It's worked on every machine I've tried and it comes with all the goodies like flash, java built in. Ubuntu 5.10 and SuSE 10.0 are also good choices, but the plugins have to be installed manually. Not terribly difficult, but a bit bumpy the first time you do it. All three of these systems have a livecd that you could try before installing to see if all your hardware works out-of-the-box. I'd start with PCLinuxOS and see how that works for you.
P.S. Linspire is another good desktop linux, however, it costs some cash. I've found PCLinuxOS to give all the same stuff for free.
74 • Mr. Pink (by Bobby on 2005-11-30 16:18:09 GMT from United States)
"The only thing worse than flying is open source code"
Although you never make mention that Windows is "better" than open source, your comment certainly appears that way.
I suppose they should upgrade to a newer Windows. Oops, that’s right, there hasn’t been one since the release of XP in 2001. That's fast development! Only 5 years between systems.
Windows is more reliable, I say let’s put Windows in all the NASA probes we plan to send to Mars. Why stop there. Let’s upgrade the U.S. nuclear silos with Windows systems. Yes, proprietary software is better and the way to go. Give me a break. It’s no mystery why the military and NASA doesn’t use Windows in its critical systems. However, you will find some open-source stuff there. They only use Windows at the top level to handle payroll, inventory, and other non-critical systems.
Don't get me wrong, I use Windows also and it has it's uses, but so does open source. There is no cookie-cutter approach to software. Believing that Windows is more secure than Linux is as ridiculous as believing Linux is more user friendly than OsX. Windows, Linux, and OsX all have their strengths and weaknesses. And let's not forget the BSDs and others who make fine products.
75 • That's Rich! (by Dr. David Johnson on 2005-11-30 20:59:49 GMT from United States)
Well Bobby (#74) that link is RICH.
A security patch that is incompatible with a dozen other
security patches. Geeez, talk about dependency hell.
On another issue, thanks Ladislav for all you do, it's awesome!
You are gracious beyond the call. Best wishes to you and
thanks for a great resource site. I love DWW and reading the
comments of others.
BTW, I did try PCLOS and it rocks. Still like Mandriva but glad
there are others ;-)
Is anyone using those mini-low-power-quiet machines that are
sold with preinstalled DamnSmall Linux? They look amazing.
76 • your forgiven... (by Senectus at 2005-12-01 05:01:08 GMT from Australia)
now have a cookie and go outside to play for a while... :-)
77 • To Bobby #74 (by Mr. Pink on 2005-12-01 05:07:49 GMT from United States)
It is not my comment. It's a title of the article posted by some Otto fellow, who's credentials seem legit to speak on the subject. I just posted the link. But you can go ahead and pounce on me for somebody else's opinion. I expected nothing less.
On the subject of security. Why do you believe Linux is more secure?
78 • Feedback: On anti-Mandriva "crusade" (by Nas Kroun on 2005-12-01 05:15:04 GMT from United States)
I admire the "open source" spirit in your "self feedback". However, I don't see any need -from you- to apologize for your point of view just because you named apples with their native names according to your experience. I've been "playing" with the most famous distros since 10 years and I don't see any reason why a “distro watch authority" like you would feel “politically incorrect" just because you tried to express your point of view about mandriva, which in turn would be so desperately constructive. I personally delve in distrowatch for the latest info about any distribution of my interest, and I would never need an apology or explanation from you for your opinion about an open a Linux OS. You are doing a perfect job, and I want to see more balanced or balancing comments from you about any distro. when you say something, I would expect the distro management to take it into account and work on that to make some improvement that would welcome more users to open source, so that we can "un-communistize" the OS monopoly. It's high time to go out of un-necessary political comments and get down to business by saying everything we need to say to push every single distribution to go to the next level.
If we don’t criticize enough all existing distributions, we will never see the light at the end of the tunnel.
79 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-12-01 14:44:21 GMT from United States)
"But you can go ahead and pounce on me for somebody else's opinion. I expected nothing less."
I saw your comments in last week's issue. I think my assumption is valid. My intention is not to pounce, rather open your eyes beyond the FUD that Microsoft oftens puts out. However, they are a big corporation out to make a buck so who can blame them. If I were in their position, I would likely do the same. But, I'm just a mere user.
"On the subject of security. Why do you believe Linux is more secure?"
Even Microsoft has recently admitted issues with security. 8 out of 10 independent studies show Linux to be more secure. That is, studies that are not funded by Microsoft.
Microsoft claims that it is secure because of its NT roots. However, NT was designed before the internet boom. NT security is nothing more than lots of patchwork since then.
Windows by default logs all users in as root by default. This is seriously flawed but there is an explanation. Windows was never designed to handle user permissions as Linux and other systems do. This may change with Vista, but it will undoubtebly cause problems with backwards compatibility as all Windows software was designed to be installed by the root user.
The U.S. military never uses Windows for critical systems. However, you will see some Red Hat and FreeBSD in there. I've even seen a little SuSE floating around. All of which is open source. Considering the resources of the U.S. military, I think it's safe to assume the military has a good idea of what's secure.
Windows can be secure, however, you often require multiple versions of antivirus, spyware removers, firewalls, etc. All these things use up resources while the system is running. And if one goes down, often it takes some other processes with it. Also, you must remember to run a scan disk and defragment the drive on ocassion. Why bother with any of it?
In any case, this is not to say Windows doesn't have it's strong points. Windows hardware support is unmatched and the Windows interface is very usable. However, I personally find the Gnome desktop manager a simpler and cleaner interface. Kde would be more comparable to Windows. Kde and Windows take the philosophy of putting the same thing all over so a user will always find it. Gnome takes the approach similiar to OsX, that is put it in one place and make it obvious.
The bottom line, I have been running Windows since 3.1 and Linux now for about 8 years. In this time, I have been infected with viruses, spyware, and the such on my various Windows installs. On Linux, I haven't seen any yet. A part of this is likely do to the size of the Windows user base and I'm sure Linux would suffer similar effects if it controlled 90% of the desktop, however, I believe it would be less severe as Linux was designed with security in mind. We have seen this with the Mozilla Firefox browswer vs the IE browser. Why did Microsoft wait so many years to secure IE? They only did so because of the threat of Mozilla and if Mozilla didn't gain traction, it's likely Microsoft wouldn't have bothered with improving security. That said, if you had asked which was better back 8 years ago, I would have likely sided with Windows. However, times change. The Linux desktop today isn't what it was even 1 year ago. It's progression at a rapid pace. Just try PCLinuxOS or SuSE 10.0 and you'll see.
80 • Enough with "Just try it and you'll see" (by Mr. Pink on 2005-12-01 22:07:26 GMT from United States)
To everybody who is trying to "open my eyes to the truth".
This is my main computrer:
g00fy@friggin:~/Desktop$ uname -a
Linux friggin 2.6.12-9-k7 #1 Mon Oct 10 13:47:52 BST 2005 i686 GNU/Linux
It also dualboots to Gentoo. First entry in emerge log dated back to 2003, snippet of which I already posted two weeks back. But just for you here it is again:
1049848239: Started emerge on: Apr 09, 2003 00:30:39
1049848239: *** emerge --oneshot --nodeps --usepkg --buildpkg ccache
1049848240: >>> emerge (1 of 1) dev-util/ccache-1.9-r2 to /
1049848246: >>> AUTOCLEAN: dev-util/ccache
1049848246: --- AUTOCLEAN: Nothing unmerged.
1049848246: ::: completed emerge (1 of 1) dev-util/ccache-1.9-r2 to /
1049848246: *** exiting successfully.
1049848248: Started emerge on: Apr 09, 2003 00:30:48
1049848248: *** emerge --usepkg --buildpkg >=sys-apps/portage-2.0.25
1049848249: >>> emerge (1 of 1) sys-apps/portage-2.0.47-r10 to /
1049848268: ::: completed emerge (1 of 1) sys-apps/portage-2.0.47-r10 to /
1049848268: *** exiting successfully.
Here's my DNS/FTP/cups/whatever box:
server:~# uname -a
Linux server 2.6.8-1-386 #1 Thu Nov 11 12:18:43 EST 2004 i586 GNU/Linux
There is a dedicated MythTV box that saves me a lot of time:
mattstv:~# uname -a
Linux mattstv 184.108.40.206-chw-2 #1 SMP Sat May 14 12:11:44 CDT 2005 i686 GNU/Linux
There is also Gentoo laptop and my gpsdrive/kismet laptop.
Did I mention my boxed edition of Mandrake 6.0?
My intention is not to pounce, rather open your eyes beyond the FUD that Microsoft oftens puts out.
How do you feel my friend?
Can you explain that?
81 • Mr Pink (by Benjamin on 2005-12-02 01:31:19 GMT from United States)
"Can you explain that?"
That's too funny. The summary lists all security holes for all linux distros which total 1,000 vs one version of Windows. A fair comparison would be to take Windows XP and see how it stacks up against say Red Hat.
Mr. Pink, most intelligent people will acknowledge that Windows has strengths, but do you honestly believe it's superior in every regard? That's like saying a particular brand of car is better than the rest. Some logic.
82 • @ Mr. Pink (by Sarah on 2005-12-02 01:39:06 GMT from United States)
I was a long time Windows user up until about 1 year ago when my boyfriend turned me onto Linux. I have been using it since and haven't looked back. At first, I was skeptical, nervous that it would destroy my machine. I now think how foolish I was. I'm no computer expert, not even close, but I find using Linux comfortable and easy.
Do you have anything useful to add to this discussion or do you enjoy having childish temper tantrums? I come to this forum to enjoy chatting with other users and to learn something. But, I guess you know everything already so why do you bother? You remind me of the bully in 2nd grade looking for lunch money. Grow up.
83 • Sarah (by jimmy slim on 2005-12-02 02:10:21 GMT from United States)
"You remind me of the bully in 2nd grade looking for lunch money."
Sounds just like Microsoft!
Perhaps Mr. Pink has nothing better to do. Maybe you could offer him a date out of pity!
Glad to have you with us. It's nice having a female perspective on switching from Windows to Linux. Just out of curiosity, which distro do you use?
Some links for Mr. Pink:
From one of your sources:
That's just off the top of my head. Notice mine are from different sources. Unlike your 3 links that came from the same source. Do you always make important decisions based on one person's opinion?
84 • BSDs (by Robert on 2005-12-02 02:18:54 GMT from United States)
security wise, i would say the bsds outdo both linux and windows.. although, i admit that linux and windows are better on the desktop. but, projects like desktopbsd and pcbsd keep pluggin along and are catching up rapidly.
85 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-12-02 02:26:39 GMT from United States)
"Enough with "Just try it and you'll see"
Then don't. Believe what you want. 90% of the world's desktop users can't be wrong. Oh, by the way, remember that the world is flat too since everyone believes it. Be sure to assasinate anyone who believes anything contrary to what the majority and powerful ones believe.
86 • To Mr. Pink (by Bobby on 2005-12-02 02:33:09 GMT from United States)
I stated some objective observations in hopes that you would point out some things I don't know about Windows. Being human, I'm sure there is lots I don't know about many things in this world. But, is your reply the best you can do? Any useful and objective comments you care to add to some of my points? Or can you just point your finger at a single source of data in hopes that I will ignore the rest of the debate? I offered some points with hope that you would do the same. I now see I have wasted my time. Use what you want, no one will kill you for doing so.
87 • Where do you get these? (by Mr. Pink on 2005-12-02 03:04:02 GMT from United States)
The U.S. military never uses Windows for critical systems
Gary McKinnon (AKA Solo)
Does this name ring a bell?
Windows can be secure, however, you often require multiple versions of antivirus, spyware removers, firewalls, etc.
You are so confident that you run your linux without firewall?
Do you know what happens when you run multiple versions of antivirus?
8 out of 10 independent studies show Linux to be more secure
Wow! There were that many independent studies? Could you list them all please?
Even Microsoft has recently admitted issues with security
I think whenever security patch is released the admittance of security problems is selfevident. I believe they've been doing it for a while.
NT security is nothing more than lots of patchwork since then.
yeeeeah.... What do you call those things that are being coded and released whenever linux vulnerability is reported?
88 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-12-02 03:52:37 GMT from United States)
Mr. Pink, most intelligent people will acknowledge that Windows has strengths, but do you honestly believe it's superior in every regard?
When did I say windows is better? I'm disgruntled linux user, not a Windows advocate. Big difference.
That's too funny. The summary lists all security holes for all linux distros which total 1,000 vs one version of Windows.
It's not funny, it's actually very sad that someone who defends the claim of Linux security doesn't know how to read security advisories. Try this one and please pay attention to the list of affected products.
That's great. I'm very happy for you.
To jimmy slim.
Read this report. Also read another report that shoots holes in this report. Do your homework.
Oh goody. Windows 2000 has that cert too. What's your point? Again do your homework.
Did you google Kevan Barney just to see who he might be?
Novell Key Press Relations Contacts
Senior Manager, Public Relations
Linux and Open Source Phone: (801) 861-2931
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Same goes for Ed Sawicki. He wrote several linux books now he needs to sell them. Google buddy, google.
Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols is editor of eWEEK.com's Linux & Open Source Center. He sure is objective, isn't he?
Unlike your 3 links that came from the same source.
Did you bother to check credentials of that source. Well here is a different source that tells the same story:
Notice mine are from different sources.
So much for your "sources" jimmy slim.
Do you always make important decisions based on one person's opinion?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Secunia is a Danish computer security service provider best known for tracking vulnerabilities in more than 5500 pieces of software and operating systems.
Numbers of "unpatched" vulnerabilities in popular applications are frequently quoted in software comparisons. Secunia also tracks currently active computer viruses.
I think they can be trusted.
89 • My post above (by Mr. Pink on 2005-12-02 05:41:30 GMT from United States)
Sorry I forgot to sign it
90 • Linux vs. Windows (by Ariszló on 2005-12-02 11:27:52 GMT from Hungary)
Does anybody know about some good Linux vs. Windows flame sites? They might have some good off-topic comments about Linux distributions.
91 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-12-02 12:29:32 GMT from United States)
"Read this report. Also read another report that shoots holes in this report. Do your homework."
Do you have the link?
"Oh goody. Windows 2000 has that cert too. What's your point? Again do your homework."
The point is that Windows isn't light years ahead of Linux. Both are in the same ballpark with Linux just a few steps ahead.
"So much for your "sources" jimmy slim."
Please. I could come up with more. I have better things to do with my time than using google all day.
"I think they can be trusted."
Do some more searching on some Euro sites. Secunia is a decent company, but do your homework.
Mr. Pink, do all you know how to do is google up articles that show where Windows is stronger in security? I can come up with equally as many by using google, but what's the point? Do you have any of your own insights and expertise to offer? It seems you're unable to respond to Bobby's comments in the posts above. Do you lack such knowledge that Google is your only resolve?
92 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-12-02 14:16:12 GMT from United States)
"I think they can be trusted."
I'm sure they have more resources and experts than the U.S. Military.
Be careful using Google. Google is a heavy Linux house. You may melt your computer using their search engine.
"I'm disgruntled linux user"
Then why do you hang around linux forums? Do you not have any friends in Microsoft land? Or do you just enjoy trolling? Also, why is it when a linux system is hacked, the Microsoft Zealots cheer and scream insecure, but when a Microsoft system is hacked, it's just another Microsoft system hacked?
93 • Linux (by Sarah on 2005-12-02 14:39:46 GMT from United States)
I started with Lindows or I guess Linspire is what it's called now. I'm now using SuSE 10.0. I don't know anything about security and system architectures and could care less about studies done comparing Windows and Linux. I'm sure there are studies both ways and comparing them is as useful as raising the subject of abortion. Here is my experience:
1. My laptop crashes and doesn't seem to boot anymore. All data I had on the drive is lost. I should have made a backup and now do so.
2. Reinstall Windows XP Home. It asks for an activation code. What is this? I just paid $99 for the software. Isn't this product key enough?
3. Call Microsoft for a code. On hold for 20 minutes. Representatives tells me I can reinstall Windows XP 5 times and I'm not required to call Microsoft to activate the software. This is my first call and it's telling me I need to call Microsoft. Strange.
4. Obtain code and activate. Start downloading and installing usual stuff like Acrobat Reader, Realplayer, etc.
5. Reboot after installing something requiring it. Popup reminds me to activate. I thought I just did?
6. Call Microsoft again. On hold for even longer this time. Get another code and reactivate. Seems to work fine this time.
7. Norton Internet Security stuff is installed. My laptop takes forever to boot and runs slow.
8. My boyfriend runs cleanup and the system seems a bit better, but still pretty slow. Check out the forums, people are rude and alien to me.
9. Infected with a virus. I thought the virus scanner was supposed to protect me? I'm not an expert user so I must not have set something up correctly.
10. System becomes unusable shortly after. Boyfriend recommends trying Linux.
11. Boyfriend begins install of Lindows. I worry that it'll destroy my laptop.
12. 10 minutes later, system is up and running. Runs pretty quick too.
13. Decide to give the system a fair shake and begin using. Don't know how everything works so I check out the forums. People are friendly, down-to-earth folks. They help me instead of reminding me how stupid I am.
14. Still using Linux to the day and haven't looked back.
Like I said, I'm not expert, just your everyday user. The Linux community was far more responsive and civil and that's reason enough for an average user like me to switch. They were just everyday people who bring their kids to school and go to family barbeques. The Windows forums were filled with arrogant, know-it-alls. Also, when I was using Windows, I had to remember to scan the disk, defragment the drive, update my virus definitions, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Yikes! How can a regular user like me remember all this. With Linux, I feel like I'm actually using my computer rather than maintaining it. I never knew computing could be fun. I'm even trying out some other types of Linux just out of curiousity! Keep up the good work!
94 • Troll again (by rglk on 2005-12-02 17:58:57 GMT from United States)
Well, the last 20 posts can be safely passed over.
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!
95 • Need forums! ..and distro comments (by brodders on 2005-12-02 19:56:04 GMT from United Kingdom)
There are soo many good threads going here I really feel the need for a forum; it's a shame that right now discussions are weekly. Which means we start anew each week.
IS there a forum for Distrowatch, hidden away somewhere?
Coming back to the "distro that just works" - me I stick to live CD's as autoconfigure is brilliant nowadays. Just have a swap partition and a data partiton (I stick to ext3) somewhere on HD - then boot any of:
-- Puppy Linux. Works well & is a giant of the mimalists and is genuinely shocking fast - all in 64M ono (NB "Chubby Puppy" with OOo is avaliable too)
-- Wolvix. New release out; has "lite" XFce desktop and all-new apps (FF 1.5, OOo 2.0). As desktop is small can offer more apps on CD then ....
-- Kanotix / Knoppix. KDE desktop - very feature rich, proven, good support communities. CD versions might have some space issues as KDE is so big; consider DVDs.
-- SimplyMepis. Another nice take on a KDE system.
Puppy - a Lotus.
Wolvix - a VW Golf; so practical
Kano/Knop/SiM - Audi / Boomer class.
From my experience: These will work on around 95% of all PC's made after 1997.
Note that Kano/Knop (perhaps others) can be convinced to start from a USB bootloader then run from a .iso held on HD. This is about 5 x faster then CD but not as fast as a proper install. Also, these two distros can remember configurations - so reboots from HD iso _will_ pick up all your configs.
This is so nice! Just drop a new .iso onto HD and boot that; and here is your fully configured rig will all your personalisations, running a new shiny release. Time and effort - minutes.
96 • No subject (by Mr. Pink on 2005-12-02 20:27:56 GMT from United States)
Well, the last 20 posts can be safely passed over.
This post is just for you dear Robert.
Yet another excellent issue of Distrowatch Weekly!
Keep up the good work.
97 • For Sarah, SuSE 10.0 (by Anonymous on 2005-12-02 21:38:47 GMT from United States)
It's great that you're giving SuSE a run. I have it installed on one of my boxes and think it's a nice distro. In case you downloaded and installed the OSS (Open) version which only includes Open software, here's a link to get all the goodies like playing DVDs installed. Enjoy!
98 • No subject (by Max on 2005-12-03 06:04:26 GMT from Australia)
This is Saturday now so I should maybe post this on Monday but here it goes
I usually enjoy reading all this flame wars here about Windows vs Linux and I usually don't say anything but today I just feel like I have something to say. Before I get flamed as well, I'll just say that I dual boot Gentoo and Win2k, and that I am not taking any sides, today that is :)
The way I see things:
Back in the day when MS released MS-DOS, they took a UNIX base, and in an attempt to make it more "user-friendly", they removed all the features that today are seen as UNIX "strengths". They removed the multi-user features, they simplified the filesystem, they created letter drives, simplified all the user commands, etc. IBM when building the IBM-PC standard saw the system as the way to go and the rest is history.
Today MS is trying to reverse and re-implement all the features that 20 years ago it removed from the "original" system. They're are the reimplementing multi-user capabilities, they created a more proper filesystem with NTFS, but in my view they are still a long way from an ideal and comprehensive set of features. There are rumors that they are now also preparing a new CLI for their new version of Windows.
The way I see it is that MS made a mistake all those years back by removing all those features, but instead of acknowledging the mistake, it insists on re-working them. And then it does so by re-implementing the standards not in the "standard" way, but the MS way.
People always refer to Windows as a bunch of patchwork. Nothing wrong with patchwork. The linux kernel itself is nothing but patchwork. The problem I see is that MS also patchworks its standards, as it hardly "sticks" to anything. Sure the standards do change in linux as well, such as we've seen with the change from 2.4 to 2.6. But on linux there's a consistency in those changes, in that the philosophy stays the same. But with Microsoft, anything goes. I think that comes out pretty clear even in the name of their products. Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME; NT 2K, XP, Vista. Anything goes.
Microsoft in my opinion is more of a Marketing machine more than anything else. And I don't mean that in a bad way. Traditional computing has always somehow been ugly. Anyone that has used the good-old CDE probably knows what I mean. Back in the early days, Microsoft brought a little beauty to the PC desktop, while compromising of the more "old-school" computing traditions. Still today Microsoft will choose beauty over other things, and I think that is just who they are. OS/2, more or like IBM's version of DOS/Windows, was not only more secure and stable, but also more ugly, which was nothing but a reflection of IBM being a more traditional and rigorous computer company, as opposed to MS.
But MS, with its marketing skills, brought the PC to the masses in a way that it could not (maybe) be other possible. The problem as i see it is that they are also today setting standards. And standards should be set by more traditional computer companies, and not by a marketing giant. I'll tell you. MS, you are beautiful. But please stick to your game.
Just as final thought (and a bit of a joke), wouldn't it be nice if Windows was still running on top of DOS? Then we could maybe see MS releasing Windows for Linux.
( mxwaxx at gmail )
99 • Mandriva comments (by Jim Krupnik on 2005-12-05 00:40:44 GMT from United States)
I don't particularly care for Mandriva, mainly because my observations mirror yours, but they are still my observations. I think it's great to read open opinions, and fully expect honesty when I read a review. If I wanted the developers' take on a product, I would be happy with what's posted on their website, and avoid reviews from the start.
That being said, I still test Mandriva from time to time, as I test most distros that seem to have potential. I enjoy Vector SOHO (among other distros) as a solid Win desktop replacement for a typical user, but others have different opinions. I want to hear their opinions, and then see for myself.
If I were a developer for a particular distro, I would be even more interested in hearing about what people don't like than I would be in reading about how wonderful it is. At least the negative comments would outline the work I had cut out for me before I spent more time adding features to a flawed foundation.
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