| DistroWatch Weekly
|DistroWatch Weekly, Issue 119, 26 September 2005
Welcome to this year's 39th issue of DistroWatch Weekly. A slow start of the past week was followed by much activity during the weekend, with a new KNOPPIX live CD and DVD, an updated Ubuntu Colony CD set, and a number of other interesting development and final releases (but still no Mandriva 2006). Our featured distribution of the week is a little-known project called Hedinux GNU/Linux, while several new distributions have been added to the site's database, including Kororaa, a promising Gentoo variant with automated installation method. Plenty of news, comments, updated upcoming releases list and other regular columns complement this week's issue of DistroWatch Weekly. Enjoy!
Listen to the Podcast edition of this week's DistroWatch Weekly in ogg (11.29MB) or mp3 (8.21MB) formats (courtesy of Shawn Milo).
Join us at irc.freenode.net #distrowatch
KNOPPIX 4.0.2 quietly released
The much awaited new release of the KNOPPIX live CD and DVD finally happened last Saturday. Without much fanfare, both the CD and DVD images have started propagating to download mirrors, but because of the size (remember that there are separate German and English editions of KNOPPIX), it took the best part of the weekend before some of the mirrors could catch up, especially since the main server became flooded with requests soon after the release. The good folks at Unix-AG were quick to set up a BitTorrent tracker to take away pressure from the FTP sites.
Some of the early reports coming in tell us that, despite sorting out most of the earlier problems with Unionfs, some bugs remain: notably a slight problem with the MySQL configuration file and also a mysterious failure of KDE to pick up Dutch, French and Russian localisations. Otherwise, users seem mostly impressed by the improved speed of the live CD. Contrary to some earlier reports, the CD edition still ships with development tools (including GCC), as well as Emacs, so it seems that even after its "split" to CD and DVD editions, the good old KNOPPIX that we've learnt to love and appreciate is still here in its original format. Download it from one of the mirrors and give it a spin!
KNOPPIX 4.0.2 Live CD - continuing in the tradition of being the most popular and versatile Linux live CD on the market.
(full image size: 504kB)
* * * * *
Update on Mandriva Linux 2006
It appears that the final release of Mandriva Linux 2006 is still a few days off. That's according to this message (in French), published on 22 September which dispels rumours circulating in the user community about the imminent final release. It also sets the release date to around ten days from the date of publication of the article. Looking at a calendar, it might as early as late this week or, more likely, early next week, possibly colliding with the release of SUSE Linux 10.0. The short story also explains that ISO images will initially be only available to members of the Mandriva Club.
What can we do in the meantime? Perhaps read the release notes! An excellent summary of new features present in Mandriva Linux 2006 has already been published and is available for your reading pleasure here:
"This page was developed because many people complained that major changes were not being explained properly, so users either didn't know how to use the new feature, or didn't understand the rationale behind it. As a result, they become upset (and close-minded) about it. Please fully explain the rationale behind the change and how to configure the machine with the change (or the difference between the old and the new way). It would be helpful also to point out where more info can be found. More info = better."
The page has a wealth of information ranging from topics which discuss upgrading an existing Mandriva installation to hardware and software issues. It also includes a few paragraphs about new technologies, such as the optional "smart" package manager. Certainly worth a read if you are planning to install or upgrade to Mandriva 2006!
* * * * *
On Ubuntu naming and colour schemes
As many of our regular readers know, we maintain a list of what we consider to be the top ten distributions, complete with brief descriptions and a short list of their pros and cons. Lately, your DistroWatch team has had a bit of trouble coming up with good cons for the Ubuntu Linux distribution, which has been receiving rave reviews in all popular publications. Luckily, after perusing some of the recent reviews, user forums, blogs and other resources, we finally managed to uncover two major problems with Ubuntu; these are (in order of importance): 1. Ubuntu naming scheme, 2. Ubuntu default colours.
That's right. Warty Warthog, Hoary Hedgehog, Breezy Badger, Dapper Drake.... Somehow, it seems, that writers of just about every review and every article have a desperate urge to touch on the subject - as if it was the name that solely determines the success or failure of the release. Similarly, many users have found the excessive use of the colour brown in Ubuntu's default wallpaper and desktop quite revolting, or at least, worthy of a quick complaint on every forum or blog discussing the distribution.
Now folks, can't we all just lighten up a bit? Unlike the original Ubuntu wallpaper and login screen which would be considered offensive in certain cultures and religions, words like Dapper Drake and colours like brown would certainly not. Are these names silly? Perhaps. Are the default colours unusual? Yes, they differ from the standard blue that most distributions have seemingly adopted. But are these choices worth commenting about? Aren't reviews meant to test a product's features instead of discussing its naming scheme? After all, the Ubuntu names are intended mostly as a way of referring to a release internally (among developers, testers and early adopters) and not as a marketing trick expected to appeal to IT managers and drive sales! Can't we all just look at "Dapper Drake" as a fun way of calling a release?
The upcoming release of Ubuntu Linux 5.10, is now available for order through the distribution's Shipit ordering system. As always, the CDs, as well as postage, are free of charge for delivery anywhere in the world. To avoid disappointment, however, please do not click on the above link if you happen to hate the word "badger" or the colour brown....
|Featured Distribution of the Week: Hedinux GNU/Linux
If you have never heard of Hedinux GNU/Linux, we certainly won't blame you - Hedinux is a new name of what used to be called Octoz GNU/Linux, an ambitious French project to create an easy-to-use Linux distribution for the "Joe Average" (or would it be "Jean Moyen"?). With the release of Hedinux 0.1RC1 over the weekend, we decided to take an early look to see how things are shaping up as they converge towards the stated goal.
We downloaded the 84 MB "netinstall" ISO image and burnt it onto a CD. This booted up to a text-mode installer with an option to choose the installation language from a short list of supported languages consisting of English, French and German, and a long list of supported keyboard layouts. The installer then automagically set up networking and started downloading base packages for Hedinux GNU/Linux. The first part of the installation program concluded with setting the root password and creating a non-root user account, then provided instructions for configuring the GRUB boot loader.
And this is where we spotted the first bugs. Although we did set up a new root password, we couldn't use it to log in; instead, we had to guess that the root password was still set to "root" to be able to log in and configure the boot loader. Once logged in, the installer also disregarded our earlier choice of keyboard so we had to replace the default French keyboard with a US one by issuing "loadkeys us" (if you are following us, just remember that the "a" and "q" keys are swapped on a French keyboard). Now we were finally able to set up GRUB, a procedure that was anything but intuitive and certainly not beginner-friendly!
After reboot, the installer continued with installation of the rest of the system, including a graphical part with the latest versions of GNOME, XFce, IceWM and Fluxbox (but no KDE). After an hour or so of downloading and installing, we were prompted to reboot one more time. On this occasion, however, we were greeted with a standard GDM login screen, a choice of languages and desktops, and other options. Disappointingly, we were unable to log in with the username and password we created during installation - perhaps it was due to the peculiarities of the French keyboard or some other reason unclear to us. The freshly downloaded KNOPPIX 4.0.2 came very handy here - we booted into KNOPPIX, chroot-ed into the Hedinux partition, and changed the root and user passwords.
Finally, we were able to login to the Hedinux desktop. The package set is highly up-to-date, inclusive of the very latest GNOME 2.12 and most other commonly-used desktop applications. The system, compiled for the i686 architecture, felt very responsive and we were immediately productive in the new distribution. Besides the "netinstall" CD, a live CD edition of Hedinux GNU/Linux, complete with the XFce desktop, is also available for download.
Hedinux is still very far from being an easy-to-use desktop distribution for beginners. Although the "netinstall" method we used did eventually complete, we spotted a number of all too obvious bugs, which shouldn't have been in a beta release, never mind a release candidate. Also, Hedinux lacks any user-friendly system administration and package management utilities. Perhaps the project needs more exposure, more beta testers and more quality feedback; luckily, with its Wiki, a bug reporting facility and user forums all set up on the Hedinux web site, there is no reason why this project shouldn't mature faster during the coming months.
For more information about Hedinux GNU/Linux please visit Hedinux.org (the web site is mostly in French, with some areas also available in English and a separate forum for English speakers).
Hedinux GNU/Linux 0.1 - a promising new distribution for Linux beginners.
(full image size: 341kB)
|Released Last Week
Wolvix is a new GNU/Linux live CD built from SLAX: "Wolvix is a desktop oriented distribution made to fit the needs from regular to advanced desktop users. With Wolvix you can surf the Internet, read email, chat with friends over ICQ, MSN, Jabber, Yahoo, IRC, etc; watch movies in various file formats, including DVD; listen to your favorite music; create graphics and web pages; hook up to Windows networks with Samba; transfer files over FTP or BitTorrent. And the best of all, it's free." The new version 1.0.2 is the distribution's first public release; highlights are: IceWM, X-CD-Roast, cbrPager and a few other new applications. Visit the project's home page for more details.
Hikarunix is an entertaining live CD featuring a comprehensive selection of the ancient Asian strategy game called Go. Version 0.4 has been released: "Announcing Hikarunix 0.4 - the free, portable Go workstation. Changes: Firefox updated to 1.0.6 with support for Chinese, Japanese, Korean fonts; Kogo's Joseki updated to 27.Mar.2005; local snapshot of Sensei's Library updated to 3.Jan.2005; GNUGo updated to 3.7.4; Jacoto 1.2.15 added as primary SGF manager; Quarry updated to 0.1.14; CGoban updated to 2.6.12; sgf2misc updated to 2.9.2; simple GUIs for easier access to sgf2misc, sgfmerger, and sgfsplit; simplified and traditional Chinese, Japanese, and Korean locales and fonts (experimental)." Read the full release announcement for further details.
Hikarunix - an entertaining live CD for fans of "Go"
(full image size: 194kB)
Taprobane GNU/Linux 0.4.1
Taprobane is an ancient name for the Indian Ocean island of Sri Lanka and a Debian-based Linux live CD built by a group of developers at the Lanka Linux User Group (LKLUG). The new version 0.4.1 is the project's first public release. What's in it? "X.Org 6.8.2; official NVIDIA driver support out of the box; KDE 3.4.1; OpenOffice.org 2; Linux 184.108.40.206; SquashFS and Unionfs; Apache, PostgreSQL, MySQL, Zope, started and stopped from the K-menu; excellent hotplug support; saving data to persistent media; educational software such as Stellarium and Octave." More details can be found in the announcement on the project's home page.
KNOPPIX 4.0.2 Live CD/DVD
A bug fix version of KNOPPIX 4.0 has been released and is currently propagating to download mirrors around the world. From the changelog: "V4.0.2-2005-09-23 (bug fix release). Updated Unionfs to 20050921-1507 with stability patches; fixed 'noeject' and 'noprompt' boot options; fixed 'xdepth=' boot option; fixed permissions of /usr/bin/cdrecord*; fixed translation error of 'Festplatte' in English edition; fixed OpenOffice.org siesta on loading old documents; fixed ATP8* SCSI controller recognition; removed glibc dependency of sysvinit; added 'units' converter; updated read-write libntfs CVS version; security updates for xserver-xfree86, xlibs, mozilla-firefox...."
Ultima Linux 4-SP1
An updated version of Ultima Linux 4 has been released: "Ultima Linux 4-SP1 has just been made available to the world. This is a minor release, containing primarily security updates and that kind of fun stuff. Also included are Subversion and MPlayer, which are new in this release. If you already have Ultima 4 installed, you don't need to upgrade - the same updates are now on ulupdate, and in the case of the new packages on the packages page of our web site. However, because there are so many updated packages - around half the system - we have decided to update the ISO download to include everything pre-configured for your convenience." More details can be found in the changelog.
* * * * *
Development and unannounced releases
|Upcoming Releases and Announcements
SUSE Linux 10.1
The openSUSE project has published further details about the development of the next version of SUSE Linux - 10.1. Testing will start with an alpha release later this week, followed by three more alpha releases in roughly 4-week intervals. Beta testing will commence in the middle of January, with four beta releases coming out in weekly intervals. The release candidate of SUSE Linux 10.1 is scheduled for 16 February 2006. For more details please refer to this roadmap.
* * * * *
Summary of expected upcoming releases
|Web Site News
New distribution additions|
New distributions on the waiting list
- ExTiX. ExTix is a Swedish variant of the KNOPPIX live CD.
- Tina KNOPPIX Live CD. TINA is an open source environment developed to accelerate the process of image analysis research. TINA provides functionality to assist in all areas of image analysis including handling of image, image feature and geometrical data, statistical and numerical analysis of data, GUI development, as well as transmission and containment of data. TINA also provides a range of high-level analysis techniques for both machine vision (3D object location, 2D object recognition, temporal-stereo depth estimation, etc) and medical image analysis (MR tissue segmentation, blood flow analysis, etc).
- SLAMPP Live CD. SLAMPP is a generic Linux distribution which can boot and run directly off a CD-ROM and can also be installed onto a hard disk. It is designed to be used as an instant home server. Just like any other Linux live CD, SLAMPP gives a Linux newbie a chance to test Linux without messing up the user's existing system. What makes SLAMPP different is the fact that it comes with pre-configured tools and applications that can turn a personal computer into a home server.
DistroWatch database summary
That's all for this week. We hope you've enjoyed this issue of DistroWatch Weekly!
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|Reader Comments • Jump to last comment
1 • Good work! (by war on 2005-09-26 11:49:45 GMT from United States) |
Nice work, keep up the good work Lad :)
2 • wrong url (by tim on 2005-09-26 12:02:16 GMT from Netherlands)
The link for TINA Knoppix is going to http://www.x-dsl.org/ instead of http://www.tina-vision.net/tina-knoppix/ (which I guess is the correct url).
3 • Mandriva 2006.0 RC first impressions (by Leo on 2005-09-26 12:09:06 GMT from United States)
So, i gave it a shot. I upgraded to Cooker, using urpmi. Here are my impressions:
* as pointed out by Ladislav, cooker is still a moving target, don't upgrade yet unless you are really impacient (as me :-)
* very FAST. Not only boot up, all the apps are snappier, it has to be thanks to the new gcc I guess (maybe they did something else, dunno)
* very CLEAN. Nice looking, polished, in general my KDE desktop looks nicer, particularly the fonts.
* not so stable (at least as of yet). In particular, KAT would bring my desktop to its knees. I had to uninstall it, and now KDE running fine. While running KAT, I had a KMail and a Konqueror crash.
* a couple regressions: my microphone is no longer working with skype, and kmail (this is very minor) need to have the smtp reconfigured to a different auth method.
All in all, a very fast, functional, sexy desktop. KDE 3.4.2 is fantastic. Although I think Kubuntu is going to be a strong competitor. In part because of a more mature software management tool (apt/get, see my problems with urpmi before). If Kubuntu (or maybe just KDE) get enough config tools to replace Mandriva's control center, Kubuntu would be ahead of the curve. We'll see. Mandriva may counter-attac with more user-freindliness from the Lycoris buy-out.
* Trying to upgrade from the GUI wouldn't work (as usual). Also, from the command line, I had to run "urpmi --auto-select --auto" several times, as some dependencies well only satisfied in a second or third pass. I am not sure, this could be because my mirror died in the middle of the process and I had to restart with a different mirror. But I had this issue before. I think there are some circular dependencies in some rpms, in fact I think the conectiva folks have been helping clean up some of the mess. I read a nice thread on this some time ago in cooker. On the bright side, pointing to cooker, cooker-contrib, and plf-cooker, upgraded about everything with not ONE single problem (besides having to use the command line several times). Very good job. I just couild be done better (simply a botton from the GUI to upgrade all in one shot).
4 • On Ubuntu names and colors (by Peter on 2005-09-26 12:17:16 GMT from Romania)
My take on the subject is that people simply forget to live...
Maybe the names are a little funny and maybe they are not perceived all that "professional" BUT that is the main idea, HAVE FUN! Ubuntu is a great Distro. The colors, altho might not be the best for some, are very calming, very easy to look at for long periods of time...
Don't like the funny names? Use something like Ubuntu 5.10! That does sound more professional, doesn't it :) Don't like brown, you are few clicks away from blue.
Relax and have fun...
5 • It's fragmented (by No Name Brand on 2005-09-26 12:20:25 GMT from South Africa)
Linux is getting very lame with all the many versions booming everywhere. Who needs another Fedora "rip-off" with multimedia support? There's already some. How many live cds do we need based on Mandriva? The fact is that the Gnu/Linux world is fragmented. It's getting very boring an monotonous. Why don't developers rather spend their time fixing X11? The cold is so old and dodgy. Instead of writing new KDE editors why don't they just make Kate the most powerfull? Why do we need 3 GTK gui's for cdrecord when 1 does the job perfectly fine? I'm getting sick of it all. and yes I am a Linux user, been one for 5 yrs and quite frankly Im getting irritated when I browse Distrowatch and read about some new Distro like Slamp or Kororaa Linux. Do these developers actually think the rest of the Linux world are going to throw their distro of choise away and start using theirs? And do they believe that some noob would download their buggy crap? FIX THE CODE THAT EXISTS INSTEAD OF REINVENTING THE WHEEL PEOPLE!
6 • Great Read (by Cheetahman on 2005-09-26 12:24:05 GMT from United States)
Look forward to it every monday
7 • THE major problem with Ubuntu (by Marcos on 2005-09-26 12:24:27 GMT from Argentina)
colors and names? give me a break. That couldn't be a problem in any distro. Maybe in a fashion show, but certainly not here.
The main problem of Ubuntu is that, unless Knoppix, Xandros, Mepis and more than 100 distros, they don't keep the compatibility with Debian. Sure, they have a us$10 million support. But there are more debian-based distros users than Ubuntu ones.
The thing is that they don't consider it a problem: they are doing it on purpose.
PD: great site, Ladislav !
8 • fragmented (by mixmatch on 2005-09-26 12:27:49 GMT from United States)
The most important element of the GNU/Linux world is that of choice. We would not have that if it were not for what you call fragmentation. Most of these distros have absolutely no aspiration of becoming a 'main distro'. They start off as a home project to see if they can adapt a common distro to fit their specific needs or desires. Some things, like preferences, cannot be merged into one big object. The end result of that would be a design that everybody had a problem with, but nobody really liked. Currently, there is a distro for every need. Think about it that way. Additionally, for those distros/programs trying to be the 'best', competition encourages innovation and experimentation.
9 • Distrowatch Forums? (by mark_alec on 2005-09-26 12:34:21 GMT from Australia)
Well done Ladislav, another excellent DWW for my Monday night.
Could you please place information somewhere on the main page about the distrowatch irc channel. (I saw you put a notice in the DWW, great work)
Now on to the main topic... It came up on irc that having a distrowatch forum where readers can post comments on distribution news as well as provide suggestions of distributions to people. Could it work?
10 • RE: Distrowatch Forums? (by ladislav on 2005-09-26 12:53:18 GMT from Taiwan)
There are so many Linux forums already, why do you need another one? Is there something that www.linuxquestions.org or www.linuxforums.org don't cover?
11 • Ubuntu a perfect distro? (by Ganoo on 2005-09-26 12:54:59 GMT from Germany)
"Lately, your DistroWatch team has had a bit of trouble coming up with good cons for the Ubuntu Linux distribution ... we finally managed to uncover two major problems with Ubuntu; these are (in order of importance): 1. Ubuntu naming scheme, 2. Ubuntu default colours."
LOL. That is funny. :D
-- ubuntu has no gui installer
-- ubuntu has no control centre for system configuration
-- ubuntu installs gnome even if you don't want it
-- many applications/locales have poor support for utf-8 that is default in ubuntu
-- all the interesting non-gnome packages seem to be in universe (= no security updates or active bug fixing for these packages)
-- due to ubuntu's release scheme you have to wait 6 months for program upgrades
-- ubuntu is not really a good choice for users with very slow network connection
There's probably lots of other cons if you sit down and think of it. Ubuntu has done good work, especially for such a young distro, but no distro is perfect.
12 • Ubuntu (by Joh on 2005-09-26 13:13:25 GMT from United States)
Not to mention the fact that Debian Pure, Mepis, and Kanotix are all more or less one-man shows without big investors backing them and all of them offer a better product. With all the resources Ubuntu has, I haven't seen anything that another distro hasn't done.
P.S. For Ubuntu Users: Try Debian Pure, it's really similar to Ubuntu except it's 100% compatible with Debian repositories.
13 • Ubuntu and Debian (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-26 13:54:59 GMT from Italy)
I share the feelings with the previous posters like Marcos, Ganoo and Joh: the real issue with Ubuntu is broken Debian compatibility. And I also feel that some "one-man shows" give me a much better and complete Debian experience than Ubuntu (Kanotix my very favourite: Kano wouldn't release something that is less than sheer perfection)
14 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-09-26 14:11:04 GMT from Netherlands)
I agree withe previous posts about Ubuntu. It only divides the Debian market. And yes the default colour scheme is horrible.
15 • If you want to buy SUSE 10.0... (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-26 14:12:00 GMT from Italy)
...Do shop around!
I have found out the following: if I buy SUSE 10.0 from Novell, it costs me $59.95, no shipping costs: that is around Eur 50:
If I buy from Amazon.co.uk it costs me 拢40.97, including shipping costs=Eur 61
But if I buy it from Suseshop.it
It costs me Eur 72. That is ridiculous. The only advantage is probably that the manuals are in Italian, but personally I couldn't care less.
Welcome to rip-off Italy anyway :)
16 • my reply to "It's fragmented (by No Name Brand) (by Serge Matovic on 2005-09-26 14:20:08 GMT from Canada)
YES, I completely agree with you: Too many distros, too many packages, too many bugs. I now that this is a FREE world, but seriously, I think that Linux Distros (NOT the Linux kernel) are suffering of having too much of this freedom and are collapsing under it.
Just my 2 cents.
Best regards to Ladislav and all of you.
17 • Ubuntu and Debian (by ricky on 2005-09-26 14:34:01 GMT from United States)
I would also like to express my displeasure with ubuntu. it is not one of the better debian experience I've had. and it certainly does not live up to all the ease of use hype.
18 • Puppy (by KlhRevolutionist at 2005-09-26 14:41:08 GMT from United States)
You failed to mention the upcoming release of Puppy 1.0.5.
And with that release kde puppy will be available.
That and a lot of programs updated.
And a lot of other new applications!
19 • Debian Pure (by Caraibes on 2005-09-26 14:45:53 GMT from Dominican Republic)
Well, lots of hype about Ubuntu, which I like anyway, but I am surprised that Distrowatch didn't cover the "Debian Pure" project..
See it at www.debianpure.com
A review would be welcome by lots of newbie who fell attracted by "plain old vanilla Debian", with some help for configuration...
20 • Ubuntu... "Problems" (by Piotr on 2005-09-26 15:24:50 GMT from Poland)
I don't "like" Gnome so I don't like Ubunu without KDE (or Konqueror+Kate+Ark+Konqeror plugins) :) But the real Ubuntu problem to my is that they don't give "non free" things like rar or unrar (there is "free_rar" but it's crap and apps doesn't see it) also I can't play wmv clips... So Ubuntu is like Fedora in this case.. It's nice but doesn't have few common packages which you realy need.
And the big mistery - why there is Sybase PHP5 package (when SybaseDB isn't in the pool/commercial) but FirebirdDB is in the pool but there isn't a PHP5 package (on Ubuntu and on Debian...) Firebird/Interbase is able to run on PHP5 + in 5.10 PDO can also connect to that Database.
21 • RE: Ubuntu's problems (by Miguel on 2005-09-26 15:26:33 GMT from Spain)
I'm a Debian and Ubuntu user, although I'm quite a newbie. And I find it is simply false to say that naming and colour schemes are the major cons of Ubuntu. I would say that ubuntu's cons are (basically what Ganoo said):
- Currently not binary compatible with Debian
- Few apps in the CD-ROM. Baad if you have a slow connection
- Interesting packages in Universe lack security and bugfixing updates
- Not as powerful configuring apps as debian
However, I am very happy with Ubuntu on my laptop. Of course, if I have a mission critical computer, I will use Debian. But ubuntu's desktop seems really polished.
BTW: I am tired of all hype. I would be glad to see real criticism amongst linux users (i.e. Win vs. Linux) and more constructive criticism of distros.
22 • Ubuntu a perfect distro? (by yr on 2005-09-26 15:29:31 GMT from United States)
Here're my thoughts on Ganoo's notes on Ubuntu
[Ganoo wrote] ubuntu has no gui installer
Gui or text-based ui installer doesn't matter ... but the functionality does (well except gui _looks_ beautiful if it matters at all).
[Ganoo wrote] ubuntu has no control centre for system configuration
A good point.
[Ganoo wrote] ubuntu installs gnome even if you don't want it
Kubuntu and other Unbuntu-based distos ...
[Ganoo wrote] many applications/locales have poor support for utf-8 that is default in ubuntu
Isn't utf-8 a sort of something being pursued as a standard? Also isn't it relatively simple to change utf-8 default to something else?
[Ganoo wrote] all the interesting non-gnome packages seem to be in universe
The "interesting non-gnome packages" _are_ available, aren't they?
[Ganoo wrote] (= no security updates or active bug fixing for these packages)
Is this true? If so, it is a big deal...
[Ganoo wrote] due to ubuntu's release scheme you have to wait 6 months for program upgrades
6 months being long, short, or adquate seems a matter of opinion.
[Ganoo wrote] ubuntu is not really a good choice for users with very slow network connection
If one downloads ISOs, slow net connection is bad for all distros coming with multiple CDs or DVD.
[Ganoo wrote] There's probably lots of other cons if you sit down and think of it. Ubuntu has done good work, especially for such a young distro, but no distro is perfect.
I absolutely agree...
23 • Debian Pure (by Jeff on 2005-09-26 15:53:57 GMT from United States)
"Well, lots of hype about Ubuntu, which I like anyway, but I am surprised that Distrowatch didn't cover the "Debian Pure" project"
I believe Ladislav feels the name could be infringing on trademark, however, Debian allows the use of their logo and name so long as the product is "Debian". I think a review or something could be helpful to a lot of users who want a pure Debian desktop but have always been intimidated.
Excellent work Ladislav with Distrowatch. Something to look forward to on Mondays.
24 • RE:it's fragmented (by LinuxHungry on 2005-09-26 15:55:57 GMT from United States)
Just my 2 cents but I love reading about new linux distros every week and it hasn't been that long ago that mepis was a 1 person distro and is now a very good newbie distro...in my opinion the strong distro's will survive and the ones that are very buggy or fall behind will die out. I'm looking for distro that is easy to set up as windows with the hardware compatibility it just might be that like mepis one of these one person shows might be the first to accomplish that....
25 • Too many distros? (by Free Market on 2005-09-26 16:00:46 GMT from United States)
To those that say there are too many distributions:
Yes, there are a lot of distros out there. I view this as healthy, given the immaturity of the market for desktop GNU/Linux. Note that most of the market in the server-centric distros is concentrated in the top, what, half-dozen? It's much more mature. Desktop users are much more individual than server needs, however, and isn't the POINT of open-source, after all, the ability to change and configure your software as desired? People do, and they share. As the market matures there will be dropouts and consolodations, concentrating the market to a few "mainline" distros - also a good thing - but there should always be up-and-coming CHOICES out there.
26 • Covering it All (by Jecopash on 2005-09-26 16:37:39 GMT from United States)
First I would like to say, good job as always Ladislav -- I look forward to this Weekly, every Monday.
Too many distros? -- This can be argued back and forth. On a community side, this generally is health for Linux. Look at Fedora and how Red Hat took them under their wing. Mandriva choose not to full support Texstar of PCLinuxOnline, however is spurned a new Distro called PCLO, based of Mandrake 9.2 and in turn packages have been compatitble bot ways. Then we have the many variants of Debian. Yes everything has a slight variant, but choice is what Linux is about and this is what we are getting.
From a business perspective, yes there are too many distro and it can scare business'. Questions like 'Why another one?, Is this really stable?'
Linux fragmented? -- I would have to agree yes. Sometimes too much effort is being put into another editor creation or front end to a program. Lets get this on the desktop and show M$ what Linux can do. From what I have seen of Vista, it looks like a lot of copying from Linux. First DOS, then Apple, now Linux.
Ubuntu -- Tried it. Seems ok. Like a lot of people I am not happy that the packages are not easily ported back to true Debian, but then again freedom of choice is that of the developer. If you don't like it, don't use it. The color and naming has nothing to do with Linux, because at the end of the day the base system is Linux and you only get out of it what you put into it.
We need to band together to make Linux big, rather then fighting one another. Many complain about Slack, but they use it. (I have and it is one of my favorite). Many complain about Debian, but look at the various distros spurned from it and it truly has the largest community.
Just my 2 Cents -- Everybody have a good day.
27 • Re Fragmented (by Bill Thompson on 2005-09-26 17:00:42 GMT from Canada)
I'm surprised to see someone that actually thinks that choice is a bad thing. One of the strengths of Gnu-Linux is just that, the vast amount of choices out there. It should be noted that while it seems like we have so very many distros out there, many fall by the wayside and cease to exist, example being, the wonderful JAMD, which was a fine distro and whose innovations and ideas, gave birth to many things we see in single cd distros today (see Blag) , there are other fine distros that just stopped, this is the nature of this wonderful world of Gnu-Linux we work in. Take Puppy Linux a simply wonderful piece of work, or DSL again a great piece of work, they were borne out of someone wanting to experiment, to try something different. There are many more examples of great dedicated people out there who are willing to try new things and ideas and put them out there for the benefit of us all. Some work,some don't, some, while overall not succeeding, show an innovative way of doing something that becomes integrated into one of the larger distros. I say keep on trying out new things, keep innovating, when we start to think in the conventional way, stagnation, control, can't be far behind.
28 • No subject (by Joe average in French... on 2005-09-26 17:11:07 GMT from France)
is "Madame Michu"...
And Ubuntu has a lot of defaults, like memory consumption, lack of package selection during installation, lack of effectively maintaned packages, very bad KDE packaging, slow booting/usage, lots of repositories to load on /etc/apt/sources.list to have a fully-working distribution, quite badly translated (website for instance) and, well, it's GNOME based...
29 • Ubuntu/ Debian Pure (by Jim Thompson on 2005-09-26 17:35:45 GMT from Canada)
First off, I too would like to say thank-you and good job to Lad, I look forward to DW Weekly, it's always the best part of my Mondays. Ubuntu, I agree, to me Ubuntu is just the flavour of the month, While it's a nice piece of software, it hardly lives up to all the hype. As for being noob friendly, I don't think so, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the changes to the front end they did to Synaptic with the release of Hoary, it is not user friendly, to a noob adding repos is now harder than with the non tinkered Synaptic, I realize you can just edit your sources list, but we have to remember, if you're aiming at the noob market, this is a put off, it was far simpler in the older non-ubuntuized version of Synaptic I also agree and wonder why Debian Pure isn't given it's due, I have tried it and loved it, it installs as easy as Ubuntu and give you more all round, things like access to all Debian repos, plugins are installed, anyone running Ubuntu would love Debian pure, it got all you want in a stable distro. In defense of Ubumtu and it's colour scheming, I mean really, is it really worth complaining about, just change it, that's the huge strength of Gnu-Linux, we have so much choice and control over our desktops that that other system doesn't offer. The naming scheme, well really, does it matter, I ask you, when was the last time you saw a Seamonkey, granted their choice of project names is kinda off the wall, it does however get people talking and as a result,keeps their name popping up on the boards.....like this...kinda a cool way of keeping your name in the public eye, all that counts is that they remember your name..Anyways, back to Debian Pure I hope more people start to give it it's due.
Thanks for the time!
30 • Fragments of freedom (by Reality Check on 2005-09-26 17:52:35 GMT from United States)
Anyone who considers Linux's fragmentation as a bad thing really doesn't understand much about competitive free markets, or freedom for that matter.
The problem with their analysis is very simple... not all coders are equal in ability or vision. A coder might know just enough to scrape together a customized distro for themself by changing a few graphics of a mainline distro, and decide to share it with others. To assume that if this person wasn't "wasting their time" working on this "distraction" that they would be able to fix printer support or be capable to fix memory leaks in the window manager is ridiculous. That would be like assuming that if a science teacher wasn't wasting their time teaching high schoolers, they could contribute something to the highest levels of research in physics.
To be blunt, only an idiot could assume such a thing. True, a very few amount of coders could possibly do this, but the majority would have neither the creativity or ability, and the difference would be negligible because the most powerful ideas of history have been found when individuals were able to pursue their imagination at the highest levels of a subject... and that is what Linux can give an individual. Since it isn't necessarily directly hinged to a market, it is not held back by that market... while at the same time it is emminently marketable.
Of course the people who say "WE should be doing this or that and WE are wasting time because of this freedom" are always the couch potatoes who have never done anything for the cause to begin with, and are quite loose with their understanding of "we".
There are certainly not "too many" linuxes as the main distros are well defined, have the top level returns on search engines, and you really only run into the many "fragments" if you visit Distrowatch to begin with.
But the other concept that always pervades these primitive minds is that everyone should converge on one program and consolidate that as the "best". Not only is "the best" subjective, but once you do that you find yourself ridiculously vulnerable to consolidated security threats, as we have seen for years with Windows.
Thankfully the small minds among us can't make Linux less free. The idea of the movement isn't to beat Microsoft by becoming Microsoft, the idea is that freedom of development allows for a long term strategy that will make Microsoft both outdated and irrelevant, as the method of consolidation to a unified system has, is, and will continue to be its achilles heel. The alternative will only become brighter, deeper, and better over time.
The only weakness seems to be in the impatience of the critics, not the freedom of Linux.
31 • Ubuntu (by noob I guess on 2005-09-26 17:56:34 GMT from United States)
well, while I certainly don't think Ubuntu is flawless, I for one (not really, I am clearly not alone) prefer it to vanilla Debian. The fact that the packages in Universe and Metaverse are not included in security updates really doesn't bother me that much frankly, and truth is I like to play around with new stuff - someone running Etch or Sid, please tell me how you got Gnome 2.12 running on their machine, I'd love to know because I certainly tried and failed. The nature of the Ubuntu development cycle appeals to users like myself. And the beef with the default color scheme? Again, sorry but that's weak at best. I happen to like it. ;) Frankly, I'm excited to get home to my shiny new Ububtu system!
32 • Robert Storey (by Bryan King on 2005-09-26 17:59:05 GMT from United States)
As usual, I enjoyed this weeks Distrowatch Weekly. I was wondering however, what happened to the regular "feature" we were supposed to get from Robert Storey? I really enjoyed the few columns he did.
33 • Ubuntu (by William Roddy on 2005-09-26 18:17:11 GMT from United States)
I like many different distros. I try as many as I can and use as many as my machine will hold. So some of the things I've been reading, here and elsewhere, disturb me.
One I like is Ubuntu. Ubuntu 5.10 is still in development. Ubuntu 5.04's issues are be dealt with in 5.10. Even in development, 5.10 is far superior to 5.04, as 5.04 was far superior to 4.10. The next, Ubuntu 6.04 (named after a duck) will be superior to the previous ones. Many complaints I read are based on issues that have been resolved or are irrelevant.
Ubuntu HAS been responsive to reasonable complaints/issues/bugs -- which is more than most -- even to the point of responding to the Puritanical complaint about its human-oriented artwork. Ubuntu does offer the latest KDE, as well as their default Gnome. If you have a fast pipe, they always have a very fast feed, both for the distro downloads and the updates. If you do not have a fast pipe, the Ubuntu organization will send you a disk or disks FREE, without asking for money, AND they will even pay for the postage! Tell me one other distro that will PAY FOR THE POSTAGE!
Ubuntu does not try to make you feel guilty if you do not send them money, or hold back their special version or support, if you don't pay in advance.
Ubuntu is NOT supported by the entire Shuttleworth fortune. Anyone who supposes that knows nothing about simple business. It is supported by a well-run organization he set up that for that purpose, along with a way to maintain the distribution indefinitely and always be free. It has a limited number of developers, and if you read their Website, you will see clearly that is only a few.
Ubuntu's regular development schedule is faster, more up-to-date, and more regular (precise six-month intervals) than Debian and is the same or more frequent than the five-disk, so-called, "top distros." It offers both live and/or install versions. MOST Debian packages DO work with Ubuntu, more than do not. They do not promise all will. Most or all other Debian-based distributions do no work, at some point in time, with all Debian packages. Ubuntu does, does, however, try to maintain a close working relationship with Debian (more so than most, if not all, other Debian-based distros, which feed on Debian, rather than sharing the meal), and does try to help them (however, I suspect that is like trying to work with the anchor of history around one's neck).
In any case, which one of you made the rule that all distributions have to be Debian-friendly?
And what is all this "HYPE" Ubuntu is sometimes accused of? Mark Shuttleworth is scantily available for interviews, and he is sought after often, found with difficulty, not made regularly available on an evangelical circuit. But when he does speak, he speaks with pride about ALL open source, not just Ubuntu. His developers are too busy to evangelize. There are few, if any, paid ads for Ubuntu. If there is excessive attention to Ubuntu, it comes from the idea-starved reviewers and happy end-users, not from Ubuntu itself. Just because their Website complex is, in the eyes of many, well-done, does not mean they have committed the sin of hubris.
Ubuntu versions, so far, are named after animals. But so are many sports teams. Would it bother you if I said I prefer dolphins, bears, hedgehogs and badgers, to raiders, pirates, steelers, vikings, or cowboys? And I think I'll like ducks even better.
Ubuntu is a distribution whose owner originates from Africa, a distribution whose name is African, and which seems to try to help Africa to show much-deserved pride in itself, without being nationalist, at the same time, offering something useful and free to the entire world.
Dislike of colors is often cultural/prejudice based. Why has the predominate color for Windows, Mac, and GNU/Linux -- as each emulates the other -- always been blue? Because that is the color Westernized males prefer, the one that appeals most to the Westernized male psyche. Why are there no pink distros? Why, of course! Because that's a girl's color, some of you might say. Most Westerners would not be caught dead in the vast array of dazzling colors found in the African or Asian pallets, worn by both males and females. And, if you are in Africa or many other parts of the world, I would think that brown would be a widely-seen and accepted color, in both nature and in art.
Some emulate, some innovate. Ubuntu seems to me to accept the big risks of breaking molds and traditions, by offering other technologically and artistically creative choices. They seem to be saying that they can search for better ways to do things by innovating, and still work toward a standard of excellence. They seem to be trying to be trend-setters, not trend emulators, trend groupies, as so many "original" -- self-professed or otherwise -- distros are. But they don't seem to be saying they can do in a year what no one else has done in a lifetime: make the perfect distribution. They are not saying they can perform miracles. And no one can truthfully say they have not made tremendous strides and contributions already. Ubuntu is in competition with no one but ITSELF.
I want as many distros available as possible. I WANT choice. I applaud creativity. I understand failure. I know there is good and there is bad, that things are not black and white, but an infinite number of shades and colors. I want the cream to rise to the top and the lead weights to sink to the bottom. Linux is not a predatory process. In the Ocean of Linux, far more are at risk of drowning than are at risk of being eaten by sharks. It is only where the sea of Windows (with all its pirates, LOL) canals into our calm waters that predators lurk.
I want to make my own choices. I do not want someone else making my choices for me, and that is exactly what a small few of you would like to do. You would like to prune the color pallets, prune the distributions, prune the GUIs, to your own special short-list. You would like to make my decisions for me. It would make your lives simpler, wouldn't it? It would make you feel powerful, wouldn't it? You could more easily maintain your balance up there on the Good-Old-Boy-Linux high ground.
Some of you don't like the flurry of choices that are provided each week on DistroWatch because they give difficulty balancing upon the tip of the Good-Old-Boy-Linux pinnacle. You profess your distaste for conformity, by using Linux -- but it must be good-ol' blue Debian KDE -- while you try to get others to conform to those standards you have applied. Can all the reviewers of Ubuntu be wrong, you you bray like a sheep? I'm here to tell you, yes, they bloody-well can! Does Linus Torvalds make an issue of how many different ways his kernel has been colored, flavoured, textured, and used, or which machines it's used upon? No! Because he has an open mind, a creative mind.
To those of you who would rather have only available a few colors, a few distros, stasis instead of creativity, who wan to base your choices on the few, the blue, I say No! You're screwing with my liberty. I want more liberty! You don't get more liberty with FEWER choices. You get liberty with MORE choices. Liberty is about choices. And liberty is one of the cornerstones of free, open-source software.
Pruning down the list of choices equals Windows 3.1, '95, '98, ME, 2000, XP, and vista-less Vista; or Mac OS 9.2 and OS X. You want conformity, use one of those. No, thank you! Turn me loose in a candy store of a thousand Linux flavours. Bring on BSD, all of 'em. Open up Solaris. Bring back BeOS! Give SkyOS a boost. Help any others I don't remember or don't know.
To close, Mark Shuttleworth's own words: "I get tons of people stopping me in the street in Cape Town again, but instead of asking 'what's weightlessness like' they want to know about Open Source. The answer to both questions? 'Liberating.'"
34 • Bunch of whiners!!!!! (by JLT on 2005-09-26 18:52:26 GMT from United States)
I thought Ubuntu looked refreshingly calm, with the bronze/brown/tan scheme ...............
If you don't like it, get KDE, and change it to Kubuntu... easy enough to do.
You bunch of whiners cry for freedom of choice, but not too much ........... hahahahaha ......... idiots .......
You complain about too much stuff, these developers sweat blood and tears to offer you something new ( mostly FREE ), you need to be appreciative of all their hard efforts, I certainly am!!!!
Thanks Lad for covering the gamut of lots of distros, I try a lot of them, and have much fun doing it.
You bunch of whiners ......... GO TO YOUR ROOM AND NO DINNER AND YOU HAVE TO USE MICROCRAP FOR THE NEXT MONTH .......... hahahahahaha
35 • Ubuntu (by Don on 2005-09-26 19:14:56 GMT from United States)
all has their problems but all the negatives that bother a few dont bother many. Ubuntu is simple to use and very usable. Other distros are just so complex and overwelming for use.
36 • Ubuntu (by Joh on 2005-09-26 19:28:06 GMT from United States)
"Ubuntu is simple to use and very usable. Other distros are just so complex and overwelming for use"
Really? Try adding plugins like flash, java, mplayer, etc. Mepis' hardware detection is lightyears ahead of Ubuntu's. Or, if you prefer the look and feel of Ubuntu, give Debian Pure a run which is the same thing except takes only 15 minutes to install and comes with the plugins.
37 • Debian Pure (by Jeff on 2005-09-26 19:33:14 GMT from United States)
"Anyways, back to Debian Pure I hope more people start to give it it's due"
Just downloaded and it worked great! It didn't even take 15 minutes. What a nice idea. It's disappointing it isn't getting more attention. A simple interview or something would be good. I'm sure there are a lot of people who waited a long time for this and just don't know about it.
38 • Joh: Bunk! (by William Roddy on 2005-09-26 19:50:35 GMT from United States)
>Try adding plugins like flash, java, mplayer, etc.<
It's easy. And you should know darn well why they're in some distros and not others. It's a matter of how pure and legal and non-proprietary the distro wants to make it.
>Mepis' hardware detection is lightyears ahead of Ubuntu's.(sic)<
That's pure bunk! MEPIS is a good distro and I use it sometimes, but it is not "better" than Ubuntu or KANOTIX or even Fedora Core 4, for that matter. Even SUSE, who has finally jumped into the community, makes you install media packs.
And do you even know what a "light year" is. Look it up, because apparently, you don't.
>give Debian Pure a run <
Believe me, I did, and I went right back to KANOTIX and Ubuntu. First of all, DebianPure isn't. Second of all, I want to know there's someone back there who knows what they're talking about and my experience with it didn't provide that information.
39 • Re: Ubuntu (by William Roddy) (by Tim on 2005-09-26 19:56:26 GMT from United States)
William, you make some good points, and you seem to understand the concept that rPath, a fairly new Linux company has grasped. We're working on some tools to enable quick creation of a customized Linux distribution. We are trying to enable choice and configurability on a huge scale, and we're trying to move away from the idea that there will ever be One True Distribution. There will never be One True Proper Use for Linux, so why should there ever be one correct configuration?
We've put together a web-based tool to enable the development of custom and derivative distributions called rBuilder Online -- feel free to sign up and play around!
40 • Re: Ubuntu (by William Roddy) (by Tim on 2005-09-26 19:56:52 GMT from United States)
Distrowatch appears to strip HTML, so here is the link to rBuilder Online: http://www.rpath.org/
41 • Choice (by |TG| Mateo on 2005-09-26 20:12:16 GMT from United States)
Funny, for every "me too" distro, there is something cool an unique that pops up" hikarunix, symphony, DSL are all good examples.
And many times, a distro shows up to fix something broken. VLOS and Koroaa try to fix something that is broken in Gentoo: the install. Ubuntu showed up to fix something broken in Debian: the development impass. Debian Pure is there to fix the default Debian install. Mandriva was originally there to make RH more desktop friendly.
All of which are worthy goals.
I want choice. Yes, it is bewildering.
The fact is, 90% of people are going to go for something in the Distrowatch top 10, and if they like Linux, they will likely stick with that until something breaks. Many will go back to Windows, or decide that OSX is a good hedge.
The remaining 10% will search all up and down for the right distro, and if something doesn't quite fit the bill, they will create it themselves.
Fantastic! The more the merrier. From one of these upstarts, the next Ubuntu will spring, and we will all be better off for it.
42 • Re: Ubuntu (by William Roddy) (by GuyveR800 at 2005-09-26 20:21:44 GMT from Netherlands)
Just one word: BRAVO! :)
43 • Re: Bunk! (by Jim Thompson on 2005-09-26 20:23:43 GMT from Canada)
Point well taken, on my behalf, my intent wasn't to diss Ubuntu, but to express an opinion about it. I happen to feel it's not "all that", as you feel that Debian Pure is not either, this is good, diversity of opinions is vital as is diversity of distros. As to the remark about it not being pure, this is indeed true, but we have to live in the real world, sadly, very sadly, Macroshaft has the majority of the market share at this point, I believe we can make and will make huge inroads, but the fact remains, that for someone to use their box (a noob or a general Mom and Pop surfer) they will need to have w32codecs installed along with all the other "proprietary codecs", this sux, I know, but such is life at this point, not installing them by default, but making them accessible via a repo seems to me like splitting hairs, and if you are offended by them being present on a distro, well, just remove them, I was referring to migraters, like it or not, these are the people we need to bring over, to me all Gnu-Linux distros have their good points and bad points, you are correct, Kanotix,Mepis are find works, the same can be said of PCLOS. Too much time is wasted worrying about project names, or themes all of which are unimportant in the larger scheme of things, we should be concentrating on knowing which particular might suit a possible migraters needs and recommend that, rather that burn energy arguing amongst each other as to whose distro is best, We are all on the same side here, Let's remember that.
44 • Kubuntu and number of distos (by zenray on 2005-09-26 20:24:32 GMT from United States)
My biggest probleme with Kubuntu was the root user account being locked and haveing to give the user's password whenever I needed to do something as root. I've tested several distros on an older Sony VAIO laptop and there was something not working right with every one of them. SLackare 10.2 seems to be the best for me.
There are several issues to be solved with GNU/Linux like LSB compliance so VAR's can program to one standard and to both desktops (KDE and Gnome) - dependency hell resolution - application installation via pkgtool, rpm, apt-get, ports, etc ... - device recogniction - kernel 2.6.xx stability. There is nothing wrong with doing your own distro but I hope that all of these larger problems are being worked on by somebody so that these major issues get resolved for everybody no matter what flavered distro you use.
45 • Thumbs up William Roddy! (by Christophe Grandsire on 2005-09-26 20:31:17 GMT from Netherlands)
Although I myself am a vanilla Debian user (with a blue-ish GNOME desktop, but that's because I'm a Noia fan and this icon theme works better with blue), and have no interest in trying Ubuntu (I'm a newbie, but I find so far Debian freakishly easy to use ;) ), I agree completely with what you say. I've been following the Distrowatch newsletter for a long time and think you are one of the best commentators here. Carry on just like you do. You are a beacon in this dark ocean of whiners!
46 • William Roddy (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-26 20:43:17 GMT from United States)
I just wanted to add my own to the chorus of applause for your well presented post.
47 • Ubuntu's root password (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-26 20:45:53 GMT from United States)
Surely, a Slackware user can sort out how to enable the root account on Ubuntu. sudo passwd. Really simple. Or if you don't want root enabled but want to work with root priviledges for a bit, sudo -s -H
48 • Ubuntu (by Don on 2005-09-26 20:53:38 GMT from United States)
all has their problems but all the negatives that bother a few dont bother many. Ubuntu is simple to use and very usable. Other distros are just so complex and overwelming for use.
49 • Fragmentation (by Larry Michaels on 2005-09-26 21:08:06 GMT from Canada)
It strikes me as interesting, this line about fragmentation, seemingly supported by a few Ubuntu users on here. It kinda comical, when one considers that had that attitude prevailed, we would indeed not have Ubuntu itself, to my recollection, it's about to celebrate it's first official year....I may be wrong, but if indeed this is the case and we all settled on the status quo, we would not have Ubuntu to love or hate, depending on your position.
50 • Serious problems reading readers' comments (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-26 21:11:50 GMT from Italy)
They badly overlap on the right with the archives and the advertisement. Tried in linux and Winbloze. I tried with Firefox, Mozilla and Konqueror (obviously the latter only in linux). Opera just cuts large chunks on the right.
Do you know which browser renders them properly? Internet Explorer!!!
51 • RE: William Roddy (by IMQ on 2005-09-26 21:15:47 GMT from United States)
52 • fragmentation (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-26 21:40:23 GMT from United States)
I didn't notice that any of those who decry fragmentation were also Ubuntu supporters. Just one who was lukewarm to Ubuntu.
And the staunchest defender of Ubuntu was also a defender of diversity.
53 • Too many distros? Too many bugs? (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-26 21:48:11 GMT from Italy)
Too many distros doesn't bother me too much. But too many bugs, missing features...yes, that bothers me, to the point that sometimes I feel like doing one of the following:
1)Going back to M$ Windows: after all I can live with the maintenance it requires.
2)Buying a Mac, and next years I might do just that.
3)Sell my PC and forget about computers for 20 years, hoping that by then there is something decent (of course I might be dead by then)
Please notice that you'll have to look hard in order to find somebody who has tried and keeps trying more distros than I do.
So do you want a few examples concerning my very favourite distributions?
1)SUSE: 9.3 is very stable now, but I can't use it because it doesn't support all my hardware. 10.0 is the buggiest RC OS I have ever tried. Maybe it will be OK a few months after release...
2)Debian: it took forever to release Sarge. As a consequence testing was left with obsolete packages and Sid in a dreadful mess.
Actually I have a solution to this problem: just never release! Keep experimenting in Sid/Scud, send packages already partially tested to testing, and send very well tested packages to stable. This way everything keeps moving all the time and you can still guarantee stability to those who need it, mainly servers. After all, Sarge is not free of bugs, on the contrary.
3)Mandriva 2006 RC2: not too bad actually, but it has a bug which for me is an absolute show stopper: I can't for the life of me configure pppoe.
And Ubuntu? Well, it is not a favorite of mine, but it is sad to notice that loads of money and a team of top developers haven't managed to do any better than the others (IMHO)
54 • RE: Robert Storey (by ladislav on 2005-09-26 21:54:41 GMT from Taiwan)
Robert is alive and well, just too busy with other things to write for DWW. Maybe if you guys email him and let him know that his stories are missed, he might be persuaded to write more often. He can be reached at robert -at- distrowatch.com.
55 • Ubuntu pros & cons (by Penguin on 2005-09-26 21:58:09 GMT from Finland)
I think that the growing incompatibility of Ubunbtu with Debian packages is a major problem with Ubuntu. You would expect that a Debian derivative could use normal Debian deb packges easily but that seems not to be the case anymore. I had huge problems when I tried that. It sure is not recommended to mix Debian and Ubuntu packages.
On the other hand, if all the relevant packages are available for Ubuntu as its native packages, everything should work relatively well.
56 • Ubuntu pros and cons (by James on 2005-09-26 22:06:18 GMT from United States)
-It seems easy for many people, which is good. Hopefully more people are getting to use Linux because of it.
-It seems to detect most hardware better than most.
-Debain based. - hey if you aren't going to use debian, this is the next best thing!
- Gnome based, but wrapped around gnome more than usual.
I use gnome the most but like to use other WM some of the time. It seems more difficult to switch WM's in Ubuntu.
-Not official repositorities.
-install not much easier than debian.
-Not as many apps as debian.
- Any code patches or customizations would be better off being submitted to the debian project in most cases.
I guess I just don't get it. I really don't get why you wouldn't use debian, since you can install anything you want with ease. Debain is very easy to install.
There really isn't a best distro and every single one has pros and cons, which is why many try so many distros. It is great that everyone likes something different.
Debian is my fav!
57 • re: Ubuntu pros and cons (by nor really a noob on 2005-09-26 22:22:09 GMT from United States)
ok, I got in on this defending Ubuntu - so can you tell me James, in regards to "you can install anything you want with ease" - where is a Debian repo with gnome 2.12?
58 • Ubuntu naming (by delphi on 2005-09-26 23:21:52 GMT from Australia)
Couldn't agree more - recently I've read a review of Ubunt 5.10 in which big chunk was devoted to a rant about the name being non-professional - the source of the review* - Mad Penguin ....the irony of it...geeez
* ( http://www.madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=5145 )
59 • Will X.Org 7.0 be in Breezy Badger? (by trapper on 2005-09-27 00:09:27 GMT from Finland)
Does anyone know if X.Org 7.0 will make it to Ubuntu 10.5?
The latest Colony release has only X.Org 6.8.2. This is very worrying!!!
If Breezy Badger will be released without X.Org 7.0, then it will be agony for Ubuntu users to wait six long months using an obsolete X.Org version while all the other distros will upgrade to the latest and greatest version of X.Org as soon as it will come out.
I'd expect that many Ubuntu users will be switching to some other distro if Ubuntu dares to release Breezy Badger without X.Org 7.0. Please don't make that mistake!!!
60 • Kudos, Ladislav (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-27 00:39:52 GMT from Italy)
You quickly solved the issue with overlapping readers' comments. Well done!
61 • Rubix a Slackware fork? (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-27 01:01:48 GMT from Italy)
A funny one: only 239MB? Slackware consists of a full 2 CDs.
But at least it has packman and Kernel 2.6.13: two features long overdue in Slack, IMO: a good package manager and a 2.6 Kernel (as default)
62 • Distro's (by klhrevolutionist at 2005-09-27 03:13:53 GMT from United States)
Well, I do beleive that many different distro's is the key.
Reason, well some if not most distro's have a different file-structure.
Now that being said this is what keeps Linux below the counterpart,
but it also helps us to stay free of viruses and what have you.
Now if all the distro's copied off of let's say knoppix,
then the people would get accustomed to it's use and structure making it
more available for the masses. which brings in? That's right commercialism.
And if you look at microsoft, you will see why commercialism is bad.
They are always out to hustle the customer in any way they can!
So, the reason of explaining why linux is where it is at, brings
sorrow, but it brings most of us linux users joy. As we know that as long as
different file-structered distro's keep coming we will not have to worry about
what these corporate scandalist are up to.
Which is why oppose this debian deal going down.
All this will do is bring corporate money into linux funded projects,
to where you will eventually have to start buying the software.
Instead of supporting the software. I have told you this because you overlook
it all the time. But be ready as it is popping up all over linux as we speak.
63 • security by obscurity (for klhrevolutionist) (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-27 04:03:07 GMT from United States)
Normally, this isn't the place for highly technical discussions, but as a wannabe security afficionado, I couldn't let this post pass.
I suppose it may seem plausible that variations in file structure might slow down the spread of viruses, but you can be assured that anyone who learns shell scripting or Perl seriously learns portability as one of the basic lessons. And that includes adapting to variations among not only GNU/Linux distributions, but other varieties of Unix, such as the BSDs or Solaris.
What you're describing is called "security by obscurity" and it's generally not viewed seriously by most security experts. It's the reasoning that says Windows should be more secure because they don't announce or confirm security holes or because their source code is closed. But we know that ain't so.
It also plays into the FUD used by Microsoft and by vendors of anti-virus software that once GNU/Linux becomes popular it will have just as many viruses as Windows. But this is mistaken.
The ubiquity of Redhat in enterprise settings makes it both an attractive and a fairly standardized target for hackers. And GNU/Linux servers do get hacked. But they don't get the same sorts of automated malware like viruses. The reasons are a lot more complex than just obscurity or diversity.
As I understand it - and like I said, I'm a wannabe - there are several factors. One thing familiar to most Linux users is the principle of not running as root. Another is that the executable bit on a downloaded file generally has to be set by the user. Y'know, chmod +x filename? Then, the file has to be in the command path, which your /home directory usually isn't. But there's also the fact that Unix systems generally set up a clear division between the basic operating system and the user applications. I could go on about having to mount removable media, etc., etc., but you get an idea of the complexity of the issue.
But note that all of these features are tied to following Unix standards, not to each distro or flavor doing its own thing.
On the other hand, I am all for diversity and freedom of choice and agree with your points concerning commercialization. Although a bit of Unix history will show that in fact the commercialization of Unix led to its fragmentation, with each vendor trying to lock users into their particular flavor.
It's a complicated subject all around. I just hope I've contributed a bit to the discussion.
64 • MS Windows is broken! (by Phantasmathos on 2005-09-27 05:35:50 GMT from El Salvador)
There is a good new around the net. M$ is admiting that Apple, Google and -of course- Linux are making preassure over his monopoly. The already existing Longhorn code will be in trash. they are admitind the need to begining from zero to do a good product! As I remember this is the first time that M$ admit in public the power of the competence (our power).
I think this is a good new because we are pushing to M$ to be better, a good sign in a healty market. The monopoly age is begining to end!
65 • Microsoft Dealt Big Blow (by William Roddy on 2005-09-27 06:37:50 GMT from United States)
I wish I could thank all of you personally for your kind words. Please allow this to be thanks to you all. I was very insecure after having posted it. I hope positive things result from it.
On other fronts, several articles in publications have been focusing on this theme: Microsoft Dealt Big Blow.
Massachusetts has officially adopted Open Format and this is causing quite a stir. One article is at Groklaw, and another is here at this site:
There is also an article tonight with this lead-in:
"Windows was broken and Microsoft has admitted it. In an unprecedented attempt to explain itself . . ."
The article is here:
Finally, I installed PC-BSD on an old machine (266mhz P2) this weekend and am having a great deal of fun and success with it.
Thank you again.
66 • anyone having problems viewing this page in Firefox 1.07? (by icc on 2005-09-27 06:52:05 GMT from Albania)
Is anyone having problems viewing this page in Firefox 1.07?
I see the page badly displayed and the comments go all accross the page even on the colum on the right.
67 • Ubuntu == new release cycle for Debian (by butters on 2005-09-27 07:12:45 GMT from United States)
Many seem to misunderstand the talk about Ubuntu being incompatible with the Debian repositories, so I thought I would address this briefly:
Ubuntu is based on a periodic snapshot of Debian Sid taken when the GNOME project releases a new version. The development community tests and stabilizes the snapshot along with the latest GNOME and other Ubuntu-specific configurations and packages. Between releases, the Ubuntu repository is frozen except for bug and security fixes, while Debian Sid continues as a moving target. Therefore it is possible, but rare, for a Debian package that requires new versions from Sid to fail to install on Ubuntu, and also for an Ubuntu packages that relies on the latest GNOME to fail on a Debian Sid system. The the Ubuntu repository resynchs with Sid every 6 months.
As an open source project, all of Ubuntu's modification and patches to Debian packages are made public as required by the GPL and other licenses. Debian supporters were a little dismayed by the independent progress made by the Ubuntu project, so they demanded that Ubuntu go beyond this requirement and work actively to contribute back to Debian. In response, Canonical has hired developers to work full-time on Debian, and Ubuntu has spawned the Utnubu project, whose sole purpose is to communicate patches back to Debian and assist in backporting.
Ubuntu was created not as a fork of Debian, as some have suggested, but as a fork of the Debian release cycle. Ubuntu falls somewhere in between Testing (currently Etch, right?) and Sid in the scheme of things. It is a stabilized and modestly-tested snapshot of Sid. Ubuntu gets a bad rep for coordinating its release cycle with that of GNOME, leaving Kubuntu in an awkward position. I hope that the Kubuntu project realized this and begins to coordinate its own Sid snapshot process in response to new KDE releases.
Ubuntu, like Debian itself, is not a member of the DCCA. This alliance is made up of commercial Linux vendors that agree to base their distributions off a common core derived from the stable release, currently Sarge. I think that the DCCA is a net positive for encouraging ISV support, but I worry about its long term survivability. After all, Sarge is quite modern right now, but if Etch spends as much time in testing as Sarge did, the DCCA will be stuck with a pretty outdated offering compared to Red Hat and SUSE. Anyone who always ran Debian Sid or Testing (because stable was so incredibly old) should inherently understand why a Debian distribution would choose not to join the DCCA. In fact, the founding goals of the Ubuntu project run counter to the principles of the DCCA.
I believe that time-based release cycles are the future of open source development. GNOME development has thrived since the 6-month cycle was initiated, and so has Ubuntu. I envision Ubuntu as being a daughter community to a revamped, time-driven Debian project. While Ubuntu has a 6-month cycle with a 2-month test phase, Debian should follow an 18-month cycle with a 6-month test phase.
Of the many problems that delayed the release of Sarge, a major one was that exciting new packages were being released every week, and the project leaders wanted to let as much in before freezing the testing branch. There was no clear mechanism for declaring the freeze other than by general agreement of those in charge. Ubuntu has shown that by following a strict time-based schedule, coinciding with the release of its most important software, development can push forward at a consistent and predictable rate.
I should note that I am not an Ubuntu user, nor a user of any Debian distribution, just a 3rd person observer of the situation. I currently use a mix of Gentoo and Arch Linux, with most of my new installs preferring Arch. I'm interested in this new Rubix distribution, which appears to be Arch with an explicit Slackware heritage (as opposed to an implicit Slackware influence).
Finally, X11R6.9/7.0 will not be released in time for Breezy, and I doubt many distributions will offer either tree before Dapper Drake is released in April (including SUSE 10.1). Breezy will support the Cairo library, but it won't support its Glitz backend. Hence Cairo themes will work unaccelerated (xlib/RENDER) on Breezy.
68 • Ubuntu, pros and cons (by AK on 2005-09-27 08:00:39 GMT from Finland)
The "major flaws"-thing was just fun! I usually don't read any general forums, there just seems to be so many people who don't have anything better to do than complain. Sure, Ubuntu is not perfect by any means, but hey - if development names and default colors are not what you like, big deal!
On the other subject, I feel that even though Ubuntu is not miles ahead others (and even Ubuntu 5.10 lacks a few configuration GUI tools that SUSE has, though less and less with every release), it seems to think things anew, and think about both stability and polishing. For example, Every other GNOME and KDE desktop I've seen seems just plain ugly when they have those icons on the desktop. _Every_ KDE version I've seen has too cluttered programs menu for basic usage, even in those cases that have advertised their cleaner approach.
There are problems, but still I haven't seen anything better, and the pace of the Ubuntu development seems quite nice - I'm eagerly waiting to install final Ubuntu 5.10 to my main computer. I understand the complaints about the lack of non-free software, but you just can't do a bigger-than-one-man's project if you include legally questionable software - that's just what makes it non-free. Most Windows users also don't have divx, xvid etc. installed (though they do have WMV's which of course are "a bit" more popular than Ogg Theora videos at the moment, but we can change that! :) What I do feel that severely needs to be done is to have some descriptive dialogs at each point when an user tries to do something that needs non-free software.
"You've tried to run a Java program/applet. Currently the official implementation of Java is non-free, non-distributable software, which can't be installed by default. You have to install it by yourself. Meanwhile, an open-source implementation is in development at GCJ, Classpath and gcjwebplugin projects. Ubuntu will integrate them as soon as it's working well enough, and many applications (like OpenOffice.org) are already using the free implementation of Java."
"You've tried to play a DVD. DVD is protected by a so-called copy protection mechanism, which also prevents mere playing of it without bypassing it. According to laws in many countries, this is illegal, with the exception of license-granted manufacturers. It is unfortunate people can't watch their movies on the gear of their choice, but for now you have to find the decryption program and the needed parts for the video/audio-playing from the Internet."
"You've tried to play an mp3 music file. Mp3 is a patent-encumbered format that can't be supported without paying royalties. Ogg Vorbis (or 'ogg') is a superior quality and completely free format that is already supported by many portable and standalone players (link to Xiph wiki). You can create oggs of your CDs with for example Sound Juicer in the Applications menu. If you can't or do not want to use only oggs, you can purchase an mp3 license 'here'."
(or something a bit better phrased)
69 • How I rank them. (by AC on 2005-09-27 09:44:32 GMT from United Kingdom)
As a long time Linux user and someone who is addicted to trying different distros, I have different needs than most. I have multiple machines and so run different distros. Each suitable to that task. The five year old child does not care what distro. Can cope with Gnome, KDE Blackbox or WM and as long as she can find a Firefox somewhere is happy. Older children also do not care. Neighbouring children just run into the house and use which ever machine is free. I guess they use Windows at their homes, but do not seem to notice any differece switching to Linux.
I prefer Suse because it is easy to set up an IP forwarding box.
I prefer DamnSmall because it makes even the oldest memory deficient laptop useable (Yeah 32MB!).
I prefer (K)Ubuntu because it is the easiest to install new software.
I prefer Mandriva because it is a nice total packge and has the best printing support.
I prefer Debian because it is the right thing.
Fedora is the standard that everyone is judged by.
Dyne:bolic is so cool it makes me smile.
Arch - Surprisingly smooth. Needs more support.
Feather - Just works. Ace for Pendrives.
Puppy - OK but Feather and DSL seem more polished. Worth trying though.
Vine - Helped me discover the Namazu tool
Slack - The way to go to learn.
Windows XP (No honest) easy to use.
Knoppix just rocks the world. The way to tell if hardware OK.
Suse is bad because if you scratch the CD's DVD, it is hard/impossible to install. Hopefully openSuse will help (Yes I will still buy my two copies of Professional because I feel I should).
Kubuntu user help is the worst ever. Mailing list and wiki are poor. Does no one else use this?
Ubuntu help is not much better - Still the artwork is the best.
Mandriva, seems just a little bloated at times. Hopefully the new version will have the speed increase it needs.
Knoppix is becoming slow (OK maybe I need to buy more machines)
Debian install is still laughably bad.
Fedora is still behind in software and gloss. Lost so much ground to Mandriva, I am not sure they will ever catch up again.
Auditor - nice tools, shame so many from the knoppix were missed.
Blag - Talk about pretentious! Its only a cut down RedHat for heavens sake.
Gentoo - Good for the selfbuilder, but life is too short.
Windows XP - Has to be the stupidest OS ever. Fine if it all works, but trying to fix anything is so torturous. Has assumed we are all the lowest common denominator by removing any hope of control.
Vector - I failed with this one. My fault. I must try again.
BearOS - Best manual ever - Worst Distro.
Phlak - For wannabe l33t doodZ
I have tried lots more, but I tend to find initially once loaded, I like the distro (new toys). Then after a few days I hate the distro (missing favourite toys), eventually settle to using it and discover that they are all so similar. They have to be in use for over a month before I feel I know them.
The choice is wonderful and long may it continue.
I guess I prefer KDE, but only because on a LAN I can copy files with the fish tool in Konqueror. If I could do that graphically in Gnome I would change.
Could someone tell me what gems of software they could not live without, that makes their distro of choice, ideal?
70 • Ubuntu Names and Colors (by Jeevanand Kuharajasekaram on 2005-09-27 11:26:29 GMT from Switzerland)
The names are very creative, for me the best codenames for releases!
And for the color: They are a good contrast to the default schemes, allthough I like Kubuntu's much better, but that's because the GUI is so seemless, after login you have the feeling that only the controls of the login screen disappears and the desktop comes.
71 • monday (by KiM on 2005-09-27 11:28:35 GMT from Egypt)
as always very good work to read on monday... i have ordered the new coming ubuntu 5.10... lots of my friends are trying 5.04 now... waiting also for suse10.0...
any way lovely issue of distroweekly
72 • ubuntu names/colors (by andy on 2005-09-27 12:21:38 GMT from United States)
Your coments on Ubuntu names & color scheem are right on.
Thank you Distrowatch. I couldn't agree more.
I don't care what they want to call it or what color it comes in,
It works very well right out of the gate.
Ubuntu is a first class distro.
The names do get your attention. Some peolpe think Harley Davidsons are ugly in an attractive way? Maybee that was their intention? I give Ubuntu two thumbs up!
73 • Bunk! (by Joh on 2005-09-27 13:17:14 GMT from United States)
"It's easy. And you should know darn well why they're in some distros and not others. It's a matter of how pure and legal and non-proprietary the distro wants to make it"
Granted. But a noob user would still have to look through the forums and howtos to get this working. Some would rather have it work out of the box.
"That's pure bunk! MEPIS is a good distro and I use it sometimes, but it is not "better" than Ubuntu or KANOTIX or even Fedora Core 4, for that matter. Even SUSE, who has finally jumped into the community, makes you install media packs"
I never said Mepis was better than Kanotix, Fedora Core, or Suse. I just said it had better hardware detection than Ubuntu. Next time take a valium and learn to read before you post.
"And do you even know what a "light year" is. Look it up, because apparently, you don't"
I don't see any proof that you know. A light year is equal to 5,865,696,000,000 miles. I took advanced physics at Harvard. Go back to your community college and learn something.
"give Debian Pure a run"
Believe me, I did, and I went right back to KANOTIX and Ubuntu. First of all, DebianPure isn't. Second of all, I want to know there's someone back there who knows what they're talking about and my experience with it didn't provide that information"
That's your choice. Remember, Debian Pure is a one-man distro that has only been out for a month or two. Not to mention it is only a 0.3.
74 • Tried most of them (by Scott Wilson on 2005-09-27 13:57:00 GMT from United States)
I have tried Red Hat/Fedora, Debian (woody/sarge) DSL, Ubuntu and SUSE.
Currently I use SUSE 9.3 absolutly love it. Granted I dont use cutting edge hardware, I have not had one problem with any of them. The best "out of the box" experience (for me) is SUSE.
YES for choice, I still maintain that there are 4 main linux distro Debian, Fedora, Slackware and Mandiva. every thing else is a off shoot. I bite the bullet and am sticking with SUSE. I work inthe IT field, I see the endusers buy their software and SUSE is the only flavor you can find in the stores, maybe Linspire if its a good day. What is missing is marketing, My wife asked me why MS has to advertise, I told her thatthe have the money butthey are afraid of teh truth getting out. Any way back to the flame war.
I look forward to DW every monday.
75 • Ubuntu and Debian (by Dave on 2005-09-27 14:04:14 GMT from United States)
My perspective is that of a computer hobbyist with only self taught tech. skills. When I experienced IE's security problems I swithced to Firefox. I then learned enough about Linux to use it on my computer but couldn't convert the family machine until Ubuntu. It works for all our needs and all the packages I have added have worked. With the help of a very experienced Linux user I was able to install Debian but have had multiple configuration problems. I still can't print with it. Ubuntu can help popularize Debian and hopefully contribute to making it easier to configure for the technically challenged like me.
76 • Few Distros... (by Flavio de Oliveira on 2005-09-27 15:13:55 GMT from Brazil)
Every place I go there is a discussion about many distro... Why??
There are FEW... and one of the best and cool Linux features is the possibility to build your own distro... If there is none distro you like, make your own...
In the comments you can see opinions about several distros, and because they exist...
I've tested only few distros, Slackware is the first distro I ever used, before I never used or saw a Linux system... but it's good I have so many distros to choose...
77 • Ubuntu coloring (by escapenguin on 2005-09-27 15:55:45 GMT from United States)
I agree with the comments on Ubuntu's creative naming and coloring. Personally, I've found all the graphical stuff stylish and well-chosen or well done if they made it themselves. Anyone complaining should see what old Debian Woody 3.0 looked like by default. Grey city, folks. And while I don't use Ubuntu for other reasons, I have been impressed that the developers tend to go in the opposite direction with design rather than other goody-two-shoes distros, which all somehow mimic Windows XP in one way or another.
If you don't like it, you can change it. I use BLAG. There are lots of complaints in the forums from new users who find the wallpapers disturbing and such. It's hilarious to me, but from all the ruckus generated I've gathered that aesthetics really are more important than ANYTHING ELSE to Joe User, even with Linux.
78 • off topic: Donations (by Mark on 2005-09-27 16:32:42 GMT from Argentina)
I know i'm getting a bit ahead , but i wanted to ask if the Dev-C++ team have recieved a donation lately,
79 • Joh: Stop squirming (by William Roddy on 2005-09-27 17:03:45 GMT from United States)
This was the exchange when I quoted your e-mail:
> >Mepis' hardware detection is lightyears ahead of Ubuntu's.(sic)<
That's pure bunk! MEPIS is a good distro and I use it sometimes, but it is not "better" than Ubuntu or KANOTIX or even Fedora Core 4, for that matter. Even SUSE, who has finally jumped into the community, makes you install media packs.< <
Then you come back with: >"I never said Mepis was better than Kanotix, Fedora Core, or Suse. I just said it had better hardware detection than Ubuntu. Next time take a valium and learn to read before you post."<
Look at it! Read it again! I was obvious -- well, at least to anyone else -- that I was talking about hardware detection in that sentence. And I still say your comment is pure bunk.
As for "lightyears ahead," if you were a Harvard physic graduate, you wouldn't use such a misspelled exaggeration as that. I know and admire, to the point of absolute jealousy, many physicists, in part, because they are most prone to precise descriptions, not exaggerated dimensions of comparison. When I asked you to look it up, I was hoping you'd look up the spelling, sir. Because it is not "lightyear." Why do you want me to take drugs and go back to a community college when you are the one who needs to calm down and learn to read?
As for your most recent, >Granted. But a noob user would still have to look through the forums and howtos to get this working. Some would rather have it work out of the box < What an obfuscation! Circumvent the point of my comment, and call it, not your problem, but the problem of "noobs," (At this point, I want to say that "noob" is really an elitist, rude and, in most contexts, a demeaning thing to say to, or about, any Linux user.) In your original post, to which I was first replying, you were writing about YOUR prerequisites, not about the efficacy of an operating system that is based upon the needs of new users of Linux.
And, when, about DebianPure, you reply >That's your choice. Remember, Debian Pure is a one-man distro that has only been out for a month or two. Not to mention it is only a 0.3.< That speaks to my precise point! I wish DebainPure well, but I am not interested in spending a great deal of time fixing, for my own use, a distribution that presents problems already resolved by other distributions.
Some of your response are childishly passive-aggressive. Others are difficult to believe. None is compelling. I stand by every word I wrote.
Just for the fun of it, I thought I would note that the speed of light -- which is not the same as a light year -- has been discovered to be changing. So, a closer definition of a light year might be be the distance that a photon would travel, in free space and infinitely far away from any gravitational or magnetic fields, in one Julian year. It is my belief that any graduate in any field of science from any college or university -- not just Harvard -- would probably be able to make that distinction.
But what do I know? I'm just a senile, disabled, senior citizen who loves open source. And one who believes the words "noob" and "noobie" should be stricken from the Linux user lexicon.
I fall back now to the saying, "Some people think they are thinking, when they're really just rearranging their prejudices."
If you squirm again, I'm not going to watch. It's painful to see.
80 • Previous post (by William Roddy on 2005-09-27 18:01:06 GMT from United States)
I just re-read my last post here and now believe it was uncalled for. I apologize to the readers of DistroWatch and to Ladislav. I meant what I said in it but, within the context of this form, it is out of place.
81 • Previous Post (by Joh on 2005-09-27 19:06:45 GMT from United States)
"Look at it! Read it again! I was obvious -- well, at least to anyone else -- that I was talking about hardware detection in that sentence. And I still say your comment is pure bunk"
That is your opinion and I'd be willing to wager that 8 out of 10 would feel Mepis has better hardware detection in general. Why do you take it personally? It's not like I'm calling you stupid for believing Ubuntu has better hardware detection.
"As for "lightyears ahead," if you were a Harvard physic graduate, you wouldn't use such a misspelled exaggeration as that"
I never said I was a Harvard Physic Graduate. I said I took physics when I was attending Harvard.
"Some of your response are childishly passive-aggressive"
Of course they were. I do not enjoy demonstrating to the public how I lose my cool.
"Just for the fun of it, I thought I would note that the speed of light -- which is not the same as a light year -- has been discovered to be changing. So, a closer definition of a light year might be be the distance that a photon would travel, in free space and infinitely far away from any gravitational or magnetic fields, in one Julian year. It is my belief that any graduate in any field of science from any college or university -- not just Harvard -- would probably be able to make that distinction."
Granted this is true. But for all general purposes, the old standard still finds use.
"And one who believes the words "noob" and "noobie" should be stricken from the Linux user lexicon"
"If you squirm again, I'm not going to watch. It's painful to see."
If you call debating a squirm, that's your right.
I wish to apologize to Distrowatch, readers, and even to you sir for this flame war. In addition, if you have served in the military and have defended the United States, I will say thank you as your doing so makes it possible for us to sit here and argue.
P.S. You commented on my spelling of "lightyear". You don't want me checking your spelling and grammar now do you? ; )
82 • awww Joh and Bill (by David Hutson on 2005-09-27 19:40:06 GMT from United States)
that was very gentlemanly of you two, and I for one appreciate the both of you for being civil. My faith in eHumanity is restored.
83 • completely OT, but... (by Raven on 2005-09-27 20:42:05 GMT from United States)
What's with all the name changes in the Linux world? It seemed to start with Linspire, and then many other distros changed names. Mandrake to Mandriva is the most obvious example, but it seems to me that about 1/3 of all distroes that make the front page of Distrowatch are described as Such & Such (formerly Whatever). Is there some kind of name change thing going on that no one has told me about? It's a bit confusing to me, so I'm sure it's confusing to folks who are even newer to the Linux world.
84 • Joh: (by William Roddy on 2005-09-27 23:27:31 GMT from United States)
Let's be friends.
I'm a disabled vet, 63 yrs. old. Thank you for your support of our military. That's what we did it for. This is a great country full of great peope. Similar discussions as you and I had would have resulted in jihads in some countries. I am thankful every day that men and women still are willing to pay the price of freedom for those of us who enjoy its untold benefits. All paid some, some paid all.
I hope that some day we can all enjoy peace and freedom at the same time.
I, and many others -- perhaps yourself, too -- fought for freedom. But we did not fight to preseve monopolies. That's why I chose open source, and why I'll defend it, as opposed to the well-known brand whose name begins with the same first letter as Monopoly.
I've already apologized for getting out out step here. I hope that's sufficient.
And, sure, if you'd like to check my spelling and grammar, go right ahead, I'd appreciate it. I suppose that's one of the things open source is all about. It might embarrass me, but it won't offend me.
Friends? I hope so. Many experts assert we're fighting WWIV right now, so you and I don't need to be jostling each other.
85 • Microsoft Dealt Big Blow (by Janice on 2005-09-28 04:43:57 GMT from United States)
What I find distrubing are the links at the bottom of the second page: Palm going over to Microsoft OS. Just what the world needs. Now we will have only Linux pdas and Micorosft pdas. That's just wonderful. :(
86 • Re: Ubuntu Problems (by Greg on 2005-09-28 12:05:03 GMT from Canada)
1. Not combatible with debian packages. It seems you have to move from debian to ubuntu to receive its benefits or rebuild the packages from source. This also could under cut the foundation it is based on by removing users/developers from their debian systems.
2. Default desktop requires you to have pretty good hardware. I'm a newbie but I like to use the same stuff on all my computers. Debian allows me to setup a nice light desktop during installation by using aptitude. This application and many of what it calls "tasks" allowed me to easily get a desktop with all the goodies I needed. (VPN, Sharing Files with Windows and Mac, Printing, Web browsing, Email, Instant messaging)
3. Debian offers 4 DVDs for their stable distribution that has the entire distribution. No need for a network install. I even got stuff from 'debian unofficial' on disk so I don't need to go on a network for my remote computers. Ubuntu may give you one CD but you would have to go to a lot of work to make those disks on your own.
87 • OT--Fans of Wm. Roddy (by ChiJoan on 2005-09-28 13:20:57 GMT from United States)
If you enjoy his articles please feel free to browse the Reno LUG archives. If he is the same sincere, well-written Vet, that this Group is trying to help, along with others, with computers and parts. I hope he doesn't mind, but the unsung hero sometimes needs a little praise and more.
Thanks for another good read. By the way, maybe the DistroWatch list wouldn't look so long if it were broken into sections by what segment it was for. Last year, I enjoyed Ubunto, Suse, and some others, now I can't. I have to go after distros that support my hardware. I wonder how many others joined Linux because Win98 was being abandoned, only to feel deserted by the Linux they started to use? True, some are trying to build mini-distros for us. But why couldn't they just patch the old versions for security, or is that what back-ports are?
Please excuse this Linux learner if she is stepping out-of-line.
88 • Greg on Ubuntu (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-28 18:38:23 GMT from United States)
First off, there are a lot of Debian packages that do work with Ubuntu. Those that don't are the exception, not the rule.
(Note: people talk about "increasing" incompatibility, which is nonsense. It's not increasing because Ubuntu returns to Debian every six months, unlike a typical "fork".)
Second, with universe and multiverse, there's a ton available anyway.
Third, a lot of developers continue to work on Debian and all of Ubuntu's patches are delivered directly back to Debian - immediately, not just at the time of release.
Fourth, GNOME may not be easy on extremely old hardware, but you can't even install some distros - like MEPIS - on those machines. It's quite possible to just do a minimal install with Ubuntu then grab Xfce4 or IceWM or Fluxbox.
Fifth, trying getting any other - single- or multi-disk - distro shipped to your door for free. And you can download Ubuntu on DVD.
89 • No subject (by Anonymous on 2005-09-28 20:26:36 GMT from United States)
"Look at it! Read it again! I was obvious -- well, at least to anyone else -- that I was talking about hardware detection in that sentence. And I still say your comment is pure bunk"
That is your opinion and I'd be willing to wager that 8 out of 10 would feel Mepis has better hardware detection in general.
I will take that bet...I've got some ppc's amd64's that I'd love to try MEPIS on. Let's see how well it detects their hardware. Oh wait - by "hardware detection", you mean consumer-grade x86 gear. And of course you're stuck with KDE, so now you mean consumer-grade x86 hardware from the last 5 years. Which devices within this hardware are supported by MEPIS and not by other distrobutions, specifically Ubuntu? Provide examples or its just another hollow distro-zealot rant.
90 • Greg on Debian (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-28 20:35:27 GMT from Italy)
"Debian offers 4 DVDs for their stable distribution that has the entire distribution. No need for a network install. I even got stuff from 'debian unofficial' on disk so I don't need to go on a network for my remote computers. "
Can you please tell me how did you manage to do that? The last time I downloaded Sarge with jigdo, I got only 2 DVDs. The only component available was "main", not even contrib or non-free, let alone "debian unofficial"
Not trying to be funny. Honestly interested in knowing how you did it.
91 • Ubuntu's Two Problems (by Anonymous on 2005-09-29 02:01:11 GMT from Canada)
How about the fact that it is privately owned and operated as a cult? I'd say that has a negative impact on the Linux community at least, and should be counted as a negative.
92 • rising to the (flame) bait (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-29 03:20:02 GMT from United States)
It's not privately owned. Canonical Ltd., it's main sponsor currently, is privately owned. But Ubuntu is not and never has been and a foundation has been set up to continue the funding of Ubuntu regardless of Canonical.
As for "cult", how so? In what sense apart from how people speak of the enthusiasm of Debian or of Linux users in generally as "cult-llike"?
93 • Debian and Ubuntu (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-29 07:07:32 GMT from United States)
For those who may be interested, here's what strikes me as a fairly even handed analysis of Ubuntu and Debian:
94 • A nice photo of Steve Ballmer of Microsoft (by William Roddy on 2005-09-29 08:06:02 GMT from United States)
The man who runs Microsoft:
95 • Re: How I rank them by AC (by mikkh on 2005-09-29 10:11:11 GMT from United Kingdom)
Well apart from badly, incorrectly too
"Blag: Talk about pretentious, it's only a cut down Red Hat"
It's based on Fedora actually and the only cut down thing about it, is its Gnome only. Unlike Fedora it comes with all multimedia add ons apart from 3D graphics acceleration drivers. It comes with synaptic for easy package management, where it's a doddle to get KDE if you want it.
It's an excellent home desktop, and I have to wonder if you tried it for more than five minutes.
"Vector: I failed with this one - My fault "
Yup, it's your fault. This and your comment about the Debian install being laughingly bad seems to point to you're not very comfortable with minimalist installs for some reason.
My advice is try Vector SOHO instead, superb iceWM desktop and the safety of KDE to run to - if you need to.
Of the micro distros like Puppy, Feather etc I think Puppy is superior myself, the new 1.05 version is exceptional IMO with 'pupget' doing what a lot of full blown distros fail at i.e install the latest java and it works without a lot of fiddling
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/mikkh/screenshot.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
96 • Ubuntu cons (by mikkh on 2005-09-29 12:04:34 GMT from United Kingdom)
....... and Ubuntu's biggest con
It's just so damn ordinary, nothing special and no better than any other average Debian clone - oh apart from a millionaire backer
Shades of the king has no clothes fable methinks
97 • Solution to all of Ubuntu's alleged faults (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-29 12:26:00 GMT from United States)
Just don't use it.
Free Software gives you choice. Exercise that choice.
98 • gnobian_ken00bie: Picasso and Rembrandt (by William Roddy on 2005-09-29 17:21:24 GMT from United States)
I always enjoy your posts.
I'm not good at humor, but let me give it a try:
I was at an art museum once when someone saw a Picasson and said, 'A grade-school kids could do that,' and when the same person saw a Rembrandt, they said, 'That's just another old painting.'
The beauty of art is not a province all otherwise good people can visit. Through no fault of our own, beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.
"Free Software gives you choice. Exercise that choice." I like that. Thanks.
99 • Ubuntu (by chronicon on 2005-09-29 17:36:16 GMT from United States)
Thank you!! If the worst complaint against Ubuntu is naming and themes then number one it should remain. I was going to install it for a Linux-noob family member as their first distro but ended up going with SuSE 9.3. The only reason was YaST. It just makes configuration so simple. Either of these two distros, IMO, are exceptional for new and experienced users alike...
How is the name Breezy Badger worse than Mandriva? Mandriva?! LOL
Besides, everyone I know refers to distros by their version number anyway, not by the developer moniker...
100 • SUSE (by William Roddy on 2005-09-29 18:30:41 GMT from United States)
IMHO, SUSE has always been an excellent choice. I bought every one of their releases, when I used to be able to afford them. Now that they're offering a free version, I'm sure I'll be playing with it more.
The most difficult thing about Linux these days is that there are so MANY good choices. Everyone should be able to find happiness somewhere.
101 • Knoppix 4.0.2-es DVD (by teobromina on 2005-09-29 19:19:52 GMT from Spain)
隆Muy bueno! Very good!
I am following the Knoppix releases since around the version 2.0. Time ago I discovered the spanish version of Knoppix in
and I think the present 4.0.2 version is a very good job. Both, the work made by Knoppix itself and the 'translation' to spanish.
I would recommend to anybody speaking spanish, to have a look to that distribution, one of the very best they have ever issued.
PS: Visit my web: http://www.terra.es/personal2/jntdr
102 • Rembrandt and Picasso (William Roddy) (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-30 05:17:22 GMT from United States)
I always enjoy your posts as well.
I'm not certain about the humor of it, but it is an all too familiar thing for me discussing art with those who aren't so inclined.
I think that it's an apt comparison to distro preferences definitely. Of course, I wouldn't want to suggest that those who prefer one distro are somehow philistines. My point is more that any such preferences at a certain point become more like aesthetic judgments than questions of technical merit. Some interfaces, some styles of working, some communities, just appeal to some and not to others. Taste and temperament play a big role here. that's why I always prefer to say that I've enjoyed using this distro and here's why. You might also, but perhaps not. And if not, there are lots of other choices.
I certainly don't understand the bitterness and vitriol I see from some. But of course, GNU/Linux inspires passions for many of us and that's a good thing.
103 • PS (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-30 05:20:36 GMT from United States)
Besides, we all know that it's not one's distro that matters: it's one's preferred shell and editor. And if you don't use the same as I, you're stupid, ugly, and evil.
104 • No subject (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-30 05:51:22 GMT from United States)
But he can't be a man cuz he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me.
105 • Re: Rembrandt and Picasso (by Christophe Grandsire on 2005-09-30 06:47:06 GMT from Netherlands)
I understand exactly what you mean. Technical merit and aesthetic judgement are quite separate things. I just happened to experience that yesterday when I updated to KDE 3.4 on my Debian box (painless process :) ). I'm a GNOME user, but I keep KDE in case I ever want to switch. After upgrading I checked it out and was blown away by the technical achievements. The whole thing seems to hang together so well, it's polished, everything fits, etc... Technically speaking, it's far ahead of GNOME 2.10 (I don't know about 2.12, it's not in the Debian repositories yet. But I'm not in a hurry ;) ). And it's a GNOME fan who says that.
HOWEVER, after using it for a while, I found out something was lacking. The KDE desktop works great, but it displeases me on another level. I'm not sure how to explain that but I just felt wrong to be there at all. It somehow distracted me from my work. I found it aesthetically displeasing, no matter what theme, icons or program I used. As good as it may be, it just didn't "click" with me. Eventually I returned to GNOME, which "feels" better to me. It's more quiet. It doesn't shout at me for attention.
Of course, all this is by definition personal preferences (and I'm eyeing E17 anyway, and can't wait for it to become stable ;) ). I just wanted to share this experience so that people realise that what drives us towards our choices, whether it is of distro, desktop, program, etc... is often driven by our aesthetic sense, even when our technical sense wants to push us to another direction. That makes discussions about choice mostly useless, and useless to get bitter and mad for. De gustibus non disputandum.
PS: I use different editors depending on the task, and I don't smoke. Can I still be an intelligent, beautiful, good man? ;)
106 • Logo Contest (by KlhRevolutionist on 2005-09-30 08:16:10 GMT from United States)
Over at puppy I have become the editor of the puppy news page.
It dawned on me that we needed a logo. So, a logo contest was created and your invited to participate.
Puppy news page logo contest. More info here.
107 • Numbered Comments! (by rob from Mt. Healthy on 2005-09-30 17:59:16 GMT from United States)
I see you've acted on my suggestion about numbering the comments (DW weekly issue 118, 9/22, Comment#57). That was fast. Makes me feel I have contributed in a small way.
Now when we read someone's response to another comment, we can find the original comment faster. Makes it easier to understand what's being discussed. Let's try it:
Are you going to post the entries you receive, and will you allow voting on the entries?
108 • No subject (by gnobian_ken00bie on 2005-09-30 19:46:39 GMT from United States)
There is only One True Editor: VIGOR!
109 • Mepis Lite ? (by mikkh on 2005-09-30 23:38:38 GMT from United Kingdom)
Just downloaded it and running from it now as a live CD
What's 'lite' about it? It seems to be a full KDE distro and virtually identical to the normal Mepis, am I missing something?
It's nearly 700 MB, only contains KDE and is not exactly what I would consider 'lite'
Hmmm, I feel strangely cheated
110 • If you want to buy SUSE 10.0... (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-26 14:12:00 GM (by John Kilgour on 2005-10-01 11:49:03 GMT from United Kingdom)
In reply to [ If you want to buy SUSE 10.0... (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-09-26 14:12:00 GMT from Italy)] - the european prices include VAT so dont appear as bad. You might be clobbered for VAT if you import from the USA.
111 • we love google! (by seegle on 2005-10-02 00:21:35 GMT from China)
视高科技[href=http://www.seegle.com]视频会议[/href]视频产品广泛应用于视频会议，远程监控，视频监控、视频点播、视频直播、 会议电话，电话会议，视频会议租赁，视频会议维修，租赁视频会议，宝利通，有大量成功 视频会议应用案例。
112 • The prices of SUSE 10.0 (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-10-02 02:04:11 GMT from Italy)
Even if you have to pay VAT, I don't believe you'll go any near the 72 Eur they want in Italy. Or buy from Amazon.co.uk, about 11Eur cheaper, as I said. In that case Vat is already included.
113 • Page Formatting (by Josh Manning on 2005-10-02 03:24:02 GMT from United States)
I'm not trying to complain, but for the past month or so I've noticed that the text formatiing for DWW is a bit off.
I use Mozilla Firefox (currently 1.0.7), and the text for the comment area doesn't wrap properly. It also overlaps into the ad area on the right side of the page. I've gone through 3 point releases of Firefox, and 2 screen resolutions: 1024x768 and 1280x1024.
Is there a setting in Firefox which can fix the text wrapping? If not, I just thought I would point it out. BTW Ladislav, you're doing a great job.
114 • adtopic (by adname on 2005-10-02 03:49:54 GMT from China)
115 • Bad news for the fans of Libranet? (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-10-02 06:11:49 GMT from Italy)
Well, not necessarily. The only true bad news was Jon's untimely departure.
As to the distribution itself it was clear to everybody, except to those who wanted to stick their head in the sand, that it wasn't doing well at all. I have good reasons to believe that no more than a few hundreds of copies have been sold. Many old users who had bought previous versions were saying very clearly in the forums that they wouldn't buy Libranet 3.0.
The reason? The very high price tag, at a time when you can get virtually every Linux distro for free, including some hardcore commercially oriented ones, like Linspire which offers its OS for free download very often and Xandros which offers a free limited edition (OCE).
What is going to happen next? Nobody knows.
But if more people will be able to afford this wonderful distro, one of the *very few* truly Debian compatible, this "restructuring" can only be a good thing, IMO.
116 • RE: News is unusually slow this weekend (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-10-02 09:02:35 GMT from Italy)
Yeah, there is an intense feeling of "waiting", at least for me.
All the distros I like/love are involved.
1)Kanotix 2005-04 could be out any day now. I badly need it, because it was messed up by SUSE beta 3 and I have been waiting for the new release ever since.
2)SUSE 10: tons of question marks: when is going to be released? When and what will be available for download? What is going to be in the boxes? But even more important: what about the bugs? (I have no sound and Nvidia doesn't work)
3)Libranet: nobody knows how long it is going to take before Tal makes up his mind.
4)Mandriva 2006: It should be out on monday, but I am no club member.
I am extremely keen to know if the only major bug (for me) has been solved: I tried everything I know to set up pppoe, to no avail.
117 • OpenSuse cracked (by Patrick on 2005-10-02 12:57:12 GMT from Brazil)
AFAIK, opensuse.org is a wiki. So, their frontpage wasn't cracked, but vandalized (anyone can edit it).
118 • Re: Page Formatting (by Ariszló on 2005-10-02 16:58:13 GMT from Hungary)
It is caused by seegle's "we love google!" comment. Set the character set to Simplified Chinese and your text will wrap properly.
119 • Re: Page Formatting (by Anonymous Penguin on 2005-10-02 23:01:47 GMT from Italy)
Well, right now I am posting from Internet Explorer, under Crossover Office. It is the only browser which renders this page properly.
As a Linux user I feel badly embarassed.
120 • Ubuntu 5.10 Rave Reviews are wrong (by Steve Davis on 2005-10-02 23:22:00 GMT from United States)
I do not agree with your assessment of Ubuntu 5.10 of having few if any negatives.
You fail to mention that Ubuntu 5.10 has:
no graphic dialer
no "alien" command
You need the alien command if you download new versions of Open Office 2.0 Beta which come in RPM package management. In fact, look at the directions Open Office gives on how to install with DEB. You need alien!!! This is the first Debian based distro I have found without "alien."
As I read reviews on this Distro, I find some people have a difficult time finding anything to like about this Distro. Yet it continues to get great ratings from your readers.
I will stay with great distros like Mepis, Suse, PC Linux OS, and Kanotix. Someday someone may perfect Ubuntu. But for now it is a an overrated linux distribution that needs a lot of work.
Please give us an objective review and mention the peices of Ubuntu that are missing!!!!
Number of Comments: 120
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|• Full list of all issues|