| DistroWatch Weekly
1 • Hard drive space (by salparadise on 2014-10-20 09:30:20 GMT from United Kingdom) |
I had Slackware installed on a 20GB partition. It takes up about 5-6GB 'out of the box'. However, I noticed that whilst running a series of slackbuild scripts to add stuff to the install, that I quickly ran out of space and had to purge /tmp to get the space back. Currently using a 30GFB partition and so far, everything has been OK. It helps to save a copy of the resultant .tgz packages to somewhere safe so they can be installed without having to build them again on subsequent installs.
2 • Sparky Review (by Anna Merikin on 2014-10-20 09:44:39 GMT from United States)
Great review! Sparky behaved exactly the same for me: on the first update, the OS failed to recognize or activate (no lights) my network card. Without it, of course, no fix could be downloaded.
Sparky seems to break on some updates.
3 • Arch installation and network (by awa on 2014-10-20 10:32:25 GMT from Spain)
One thing on the Arch network issue: did you configure network again once you chrooted after base system installation?
According to the beginner's guide you have to do this.
4 • Re:Debian init drama (by cykodrone on 2014-10-20 11:39:23 GMT from Canada)
Now I'm getting confused (which isn't too hard to do, lol), so are individual packages supposed to be developer maintained to support both major inits or is Debian going to tailor two diff install disks? In other words, Debian after developer tweaking to suit both inits for two diff systems/installers or is that pain in the rear developer onus? My head is spinning.
Off topic, I dumped a certain proprietary OS over 4 years ago, now I dumped two major hardware vendors cuz of their 'tudes towards Linux and their prices. I just built me an octi-core beast, running Debian stable (with bpo cheating) on a dual SSD 6GB/s ('SATA3') Raid 0, I benched it, I now have read speeds of 1.1GB/s and write of over 600MB/s.
5 • Rolling releases review (by Robert Schiele on 2014-10-20 12:47:16 GMT from United States)
Back when Jesse wrote that he was going to begin his experiment of testing rolling releases, I posted here to point out that Debian Testing is NOT a rolling release, that it is not offered as such (and has never been), and that breakages in it (per Debian) are not only to be expected from time to time but may even occur with some frequency as Testing has never been intended to be run by casual users at all--certainly not on a production machine.
Then today in Jesse's update on his experiment, I saw this quote "SparkyLinux' parent distribution, Debian Testing, has a well earned reputation for stability..." and I thought I would have another try. No, Debian Testing does NOT have a reputation (well earned or otherwise) for stability. Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact, quite the opposite is true. Debian's Stable release (currently "Wheezy") is indeed rock-solid stable as Debian's releases have always been. That's why the Stable branch is all that is ever given an official release. It's also why Stable is called Stable, and why Testing is called Testing. Duh. Go figure.
I love reading Jesse's posts, and clearly he knows more about Gnu/Linux and other free software distros than many people. Why he can't seem to grasp this, as posted above, I cannot understand. Is it that he simply refuses to understand, because the truth doesn't suit his own agenda? Call me a crotchety old duffer if you like. I am. But I've noticed increasingly over the years that all too many younger people seem to think they can create their own personal reality, their own personal world, if you prefer, by simply claiming that such-and-such is so, all facts and evidence to the contrary. I can only think that that is what is going on here. Go out and buy yourself a cheap old clunker of a used car with the idea that it will somehow fly you to Mars. Stick to that belief no matter what, and see what happens. IMHO, that is what is happening here.
6 • Debian vs. Systemd (by Microlinux on 2014-10-20 13:04:16 GMT from France)
Now it starts to get interesting: http://debianfork.org/
7 • re 6 (by cornelius on 2014-10-20 13:37:07 GMT from Canada)
It's not Debian vs. Systemd. It's actually Debian featuring Systemd.
What's the big deal about it? A lot of forks happen for no good reason all the time. It's typical for Linux.
8 • a (by a on 2014-10-20 15:01:47 GMT from France)
Thanks for the link Microlinux! If they fork debian it could be my next distro. I haven’t found any good distro without systemd :(.
9 • debian fork (by salparadise on 2014-10-20 15:30:06 GMT from United Kingdom)
Now this is seriously good news. And it will send a message that few will be able to ignore - that systemd is garbage, its developers are spoiled children and its presence threatens Linux in a way that is not going to be tolerated.
10 • How controversy encourages evolution (by Bill Savoie on 2014-10-20 15:41:29 GMT from United States)
Jesse gave us his impressions from his Linux History, of another distribution (Sparky). He did not test the main branch (main edition – lightweight & fast LXDE desktop) or the second branch (Enlightenment) but one of the newer branches (MATE). Therefore we can all figure out that some of the integration is not as polished as it might have been with LXDE. That being said, in the past 5 years I have not tried many different Linux versions. Mostly I spend time with OpenSuse. But I did enjoy his drive through the Linux country that is called Sparky.
The idea of 'rolling release' is a tricky one. It means different things to different people. For some it means no gate keeping, no interlocking board of review. which might just make the idea of release less daunting to the developers. It might also mean getting more unsuspecting testers engaged. (Ouch) A developer might not have 5 different computers to test with, so bugs get pushed out to a little hardware market. If you have a computer with an odd assortment of interfaces, you might need to actually become a developer to make your system work well.
All this innovation, given freely by developers, creates pressure of those who wish the world were absolutely simple and unchanging. This is good and necessary for the rest of us, who look for empowerment and are willing to be engaged in bring about change. This tension is called life. We can no more take it out of Linux, than we can give up electricity. Remember electricity was once DC and AC was considered too dangerous. Now we have both. Linux has both stable and innovation.
Perhaps it feels strange to build a 'rolling release' upon a 'stable release'. The critical path might require more operator awareness, picking the right interfaces, and being willing to work through configuration issues online. Perhaps it feels strange, but then in time you might see the efficiency that it provides. This 'rolling release' is somewhat painful to the user, but a worthwhile efficiency improvement to the development process. That efficiency will trickle down to the user, and it is actually empowering.
Pain and Ouch are part of life. They don't last very long if you work to improve your software skills and are willing to spend some time communicating with others on the Internet.
The older I get, the more I enjoy Linux, and the people who want to go there and hang out. Thanks Distrowatch for allowing us to meet beyond our little preferences, beyond our little circle of people who think like we do.
Controversy encourages evolution, and we are all going there together. Even the 'Ouch' as a purpose.
11 • Sparky (by marame on 2014-10-20 16:54:49 GMT from Finland)
I have Sparky Linux Mate/XFCE on a old Compaq D310 and it is working very good. XFCE is better in reliability. Not having those problems but in Makulu Linux (Debian testing) in HP DC7600 SFF after upgrade I got black screen with only cursor. The problem is on MDM (Mint Display Manager) update and switching to LightDM helps, maybe works in Sparky Mate too. (http://makululinux.com/forums/topic/makulu-blackout/).
12 • #8 (by Microlinux on 2014-10-20 17:44:50 GMT from France)
@a: Slackware doesn't have SystemD, and it's very nice. Been using it since 2001.
13 • @11 (by jaws222 on 2014-10-20 20:19:53 GMT from United States)
"The problem is on MDM (Mint Display Manager) update and switching to LightDM helps, maybe works in Sparky Mate too"
I had the same issue this weekend with Point Linux Mate. I was able to login to the terminal and run updates but no gui. Tried Startx - no luck (not recognized). My solution was to install XFCE desktop and now I'm back in business.
14 • Debian fork (by Tacklebeery on 2014-10-20 21:54:41 GMT from Canada)
If Debian coninues with systemd, I'm "outta there" as it were. I agree with most of the arguments put forward by the systemd haters that can be found on the link posted in comment #6 and the links provided by that website. I agree with the Unix philosophy well beyond the systemd philosophy.
15 • a (by a on 2014-10-20 22:05:31 GMT from France)
@Microlinux, I’ve quickly tried Salix but didn’t like it much due to missing pieces of Xfce and missing keymaps. I’ll try Slackware to see if it’s better.
There’s also Funtoo, but installing some packages takes so much time! I’d need a faster processor at least.
16 • a (by a on 2014-10-20 22:08:43 GMT from France)
Oh, and PCLinuxOS. I had trouble running it in VirtualBox but it’s now working; I’ll have to check it further.
17 • @11 & 13 Black screen with curser (by Rev_Don on 2014-10-20 22:31:09 GMT from United States)
"The problem is on MDM (Mint Display Manager) update and switching to LightDM helps, maybe works in Sparky Mate too"
A friend of mine ran into this with Kubunut 14.04 last week. We spent several hours trying to figure it out. I had him install XFCE from a terminal to be able to get a GUI. He ended up blowing away Kubuntu and replaced it with Kwheezy which so far hasn't had any problems. Not sure it was the same underlying problem, but the symptoms were the same.
18 • @17 (by jaws222 on 2014-10-20 22:40:18 GMT from United States)
' I had him install XFCE from a terminal to be able to get a GUI"
If he still wants the KDE effects he can enter kwin --replace in the terminal. That's usually how I run XFCE.
19 • a (by a on 2014-10-20 22:58:53 GMT from France)
Oh well, Slackware also doesn’t have the bépo keymap and is thus impossible to install, because there is no graphical installer.
20 • @18 KDE/XFCE (by Rev_Don on 2014-10-20 23:48:06 GMT from United States)
"If he still wants the KDE effects he can enter kwin --replace in the terminal. That's usually how I run XFCE."
Thanks for that. He is now running Kwheezy after blowing away Kubuntu and it's running fine. Kwheezy uses KDE, not XFCE. He only installed XFCE long enough to recover some files and to see if we could fix the problem with Kubuntu. While XFCE is a fine DE (and my second favorite after Mate), he prefers KDE. And yes, he does use some of the Kwin effects.
21 • Qubes, OpenSUSE (by pekael on 2014-10-21 00:53:00 GMT from Poland)
Regarding to Qubes OS - try booting with different (older) kernel versions, the installer provides several.
When it comes to SuSE, it may be also BTRFS issue with snapper-made snapshots:
22 • Arch Evo/Lution installer (by jg on 2014-10-21 00:55:37 GMT from Poland)
After reading last week's comments, I downloaded and installed the easy Arch installer from the project's page at http://www.evolutionlinux.com/. Distrohopping from 2003, I always dreamed of a solid, stable distro with the latest, cutting (not bleeding) edge packages. I tried to install Arch several times before, but the results were either not fruitfull or very, very shortlived. This time, however, in 30 minutes I installed Arch KDE in VBox (3.5 GB RAM) on Kubuntu 14.04. I still cannot believe it is real - I install new packages, uninstall some other and so far, everything works. Applied updates 2 times - still running. I'm sure, when installing Kubuntu 14.10 I will also try to install Arch on my thinkpad. Many thanks, Distrowatch, for all the good work over the years and a BIG THANKYOU to the Evo/Lution team!
23 • Qubes OS 2.0 (by Erich Friesen on 2014-10-21 00:59:08 GMT from United States)
I've tested Qubes on several machines, and never had any issues.The laptops I've used have been Think Pads, and the desktops were Intel.
The distro/OS is really polished in the 2.0 edition. I would recommend 8 G of RAM, as there is a big overhead for the VM's.
24 • @20 (by jaws222 on 2014-10-21 01:17:39 GMT from United States)
I was actually able to get Mate back by doing the following:
1, Installed xdm from synaptic
2. ran dpkg-reconfigure xdm and chose lightdm
3. restarted and lightdm appeared - logged in as usual and Mate was back
25 • ComLin RPM-based (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-10-21 01:58:35 GMT from United States)
Community_Linux (aka ComLin) "...works like any other RPM-based Linux. It is sourced from CENTOS 6.3..."
26 • Debian fork (by Paraquat on 2014-10-21 02:26:21 GMT from Taiwan)
Wow, this is indeed good news.A heap of thanks to those Microlinux (#6) for mentioning this, as I was unaware.
I detest the execrable systemd, and I am getting all set to switch to FreeBSD as soon as version 10.1 gets released (mid November I guess). But if Debian forks, I will at least keep a Debian installation in one partition. I really don't want to abandon Linux for FreeBSD, but I am not willing to have the systemd virus on my computer.
27 • debain fork (by linuxista on 2014-10-21 02:40:29 GMT from United States)
@6 The manifesto states in part: "The current leadership of the project is heavily influenced by GNOME developers and too much inclined to consider desktop needs as crucial to the project, despite the fact that the majority of Debian users are tech-savvy system administrators."
Can this really be true?
28 • @27 (by Paraquat on 2014-10-21 03:07:26 GMT from Taiwan)
"@6 The manifesto states in part: "The current leadership of the project is heavily influenced by GNOME developers and too much inclined to consider desktop needs as crucial to the project, despite the fact that the majority of Debian users are tech-savvy system administrators."
Can this really be true?"
I doubt it's true. Who actually said that?
Anyway, I can't claim to be a tech-savvy system administrator, but I'm tech-savvy enough as a Linux user (16 years experience) to understand why I don't want systemd. Don't have time enough right now to rehash the entire debate, but I plan to write an article about it soon.
Of course, most of us have probably heard more of this debate than we ever wanted to already. Unfortunately, nothing has been resolved. So we opponents of Systemd/Linux have got to start making plans about how we are going to cope. For some that means switching to Slackware or Gentoon, for others FreeBSD. But it would be nice if we could claw Debian back from the brink.
29 • Slackware keymaps (by salparadise on 2014-10-21 04:23:21 GMT from United Kingdom)
@a - this might help.
30 • @28 FreeSlacktoo, lol (by cykodrone on 2014-10-21 11:04:52 GMT from Canada)
I'll give Jessie (the upcoming official "stable" release") a chance, but at the first whiff of stinky full diaper smell from systemd, I'm off to FreeSlacktoo land. It means learning new commands, etc, but who cares, I had to learn Debian commands, I can do it again with a diff distro. Just sayin. Basically if systemd does suck in Jessie, then it'll suck in other distros using it too.
31 • Sparky Linux (by J. Jay Thomas on 2014-10-21 12:29:03 GMT from United States)
Good review. The problems you had are problem in the 'Mate DE, (some distros hack around these better than others), especially high CPU usage and the panel. The 'sparky system tools' again are caused by unstable (from release to release) 'mate-system-tools' package, installing the 'gnome-system-tools' package makes them work. Try 'Sparky XFCE or lxde spins (change system tools used thou) and you'll have a totally different experience.
32 • Evo/Lution (by Terence on 2014-10-21 12:48:51 GMT from United States)
I'm with you on the Arch installer they have created. I downloaded it, threw it onto my USB drive and away I went. Lord, they simplified installation, though it's still a bit hinky in parts, and added some cool options to boot. What kernel you want? Bam done. What desktop you want? Bam done. The only sticking point I still run into is when it first boots and tries to download the core, community, etc. updates. Until I actually designate what country I am in, and choose servers local to me, it sometimes get bogged down and errors out. But that could be because I'm in China and China don't play nice.
33 • Systemd conspiracy ;-) (by KI on 2014-10-21 13:33:25 GMT from Belgium)
I have always advocated for unifying the Linux landscape. For me, it is clear that the purpose of systemd is enforcing unification creating a universal administrative interface for every Linux system.
Per se, this is not a bad thing. The problem is that it is being imposed upon us by spreading an obscure, poorly documented, chunk of code without explicitly declaring the final goal.
34 • @33 - Systemd conspiracy (by Pierre on 2014-10-21 14:43:08 GMT from Germany)
It's exactly what I think, too.
But as long as systemd does on my system what it is supposed to do I will not complain too much.
Nevertheless I am honestly thinking about the move to FreeBSD or PC-BSD. GhostBSD is worth a test run as well.
Maybe this way the *BSDs will get the attention they deserve now. FreeBSD seems to be quite clean in it's implementation. And ZFS looks like it's a better choice in comparison to Btrfs although I am using Btrfs on openSUSE since 12.3 without a single problem.
35 • SparkyLinux (by dhinds on 2014-10-21 21:25:25 GMT from Mexico)
I use Sparky Openbox on this Desktop Machine. I began with Mate and liked it but had problems with the need to be root (as mentioned here). LXDE is the major DE for Parvoo, Sparky's Developer and of course LXDE's window manager is Openbox. I myself run a number of XFCE apps, including the xfce4-panel and everything runs just fine. Sparky is one of the best distros based on Debian Testing, imo.
36 • 96 dodge grand caravan (by dhinds on 2014-10-21 21:28:59 GMT from Mexico)
I meant to say I don't use the wbar dock (but rather the xfce4-panel) or the Sparky desktop background and changing them is easy to do.
37 • Arch Upgrades in RAM Are Best Way (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2014-10-21 21:43:16 GMT from United States)
Notice good Arch packages
(1) pacmanlogviewer ('plv' at console)
Retention of pkgs is wasted space and thrashing. Upgrades can run in RAM which is faster anyhow. Cache disappears at reboot, or clears by hand or by timer. Pacaur cleans itself so you can upgrade with an easy shell alias for this one-liner.
pacaur -Syu && pacman -Scc && sync && plv
Mods for RAM-only Arch upgrades:
tmpfs /var/log tmpfs defaults,gid=100,mode=0777,size=50M 0 0
tmpfs /var/cache tmpfs defaults,size=150M 0 0
d /tmp/pacman-cache 0755 root root 1d
d /var/cache/pkgfile 0775 root users 1d
f /var/log/pacman.log 0664 root users -
# /etc/pacman.conf [options] section
CacheDir = /tmp/pacman-cache
# /etc/xdg/pacaur/config uncomment
38 • security methods (by J Bro on 2014-10-22 01:04:37 GMT from Australia)
"There are a few different approaches to security in operating systems: "security by isolation", "security by correctness", "security by obscurity"."
Well described Jesse. Each undoubtedly has its own advantages and weaknesses. Probably the best security solution would be a mixture of all methods.
The Isolation method primarily prevents malware / hackers from getting total control over the computer. The devs think that that's all you need and don't value other approaches. But it doesn't necessarily have the best perimeter defences to prevent access in the first place - like limiting remote login, denying hosts, stopping unneeded services, closing unused ports, a comprehensive firewall, etc. That's where the isolation-only approach is flawed.
39 • security methods (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-10-22 01:13:05 GMT from United States)
And then there's security designed by Marketing: "What's your email address? What's your phone number? What's your fax number? What's your cell phone number? What's your smartphone number? ..."
40 • Too much rhetoric (by :wq on 2014-10-22 02:18:47 GMT from United States)
I have no problem with people forking projects or starting new, potentially competing, projects, though many will end up dying off (Northfield/Norwood come to mind here), no matter the reasoning, as long as it's done honestly, with no intentional misattributions, misrepresentations, or verbal embellishments used to bolster the cause. Whether people assume good or bad faith veers off into subjectivity, and is beyond the scope of this post. What gets old is the childish language on all sides, such as "cancerd", "Poettering OS", etc. It's the same immaturity that fuels "M$" and "Windoze" comments. It doesn't matter the "discussion", it could be BSDs and Linux compared, Clang and GCC compared, AMD, NVIDIA and Intel compared, etc, invariably it ends being around 10% cogent opinions and 90% hell-raising static, again, on all sides. I will admit that, while often depressing, the crisis of the hour occasionally makes for amusing bedfellows, as, in the particular case of systemd reaction, I have witnessed some people on other sites who tirelessly bashed the BSDs now suddenly singing their praises, which isn't bad, as #34 said, the BSDs deserve more attention, it's just sad in these aforementioned cases that it took systemd hatred to foment BSD love, which makes me wonder how fickle that attention will be.
The Debian Project will have its GR vote, parties like debianfork.org will proceed as they choose in response to the vote, and other software communities will continue to plan how they approach technologies, both in idealistic and pragmatic terms, but enough with the pettiness.
41 • @40 (by kernelKurtz on 2014-10-22 06:05:41 GMT from Romania)
Got your non-petty cogent opinion right here yo.
42 • @40 Since YOU brought it up... (by cykodrone on 2014-10-22 11:47:38 GMT from Canada)
You forgot one, 'Windhose', it vacuums money from your wallet or purse, lol, been there, done that, the TCO is ridiculous, monetarily and maintenance time spent, time is money too.
How about "poop or get off the Poettering"? OK, bad joke. :D
And since you brought up hardware vendors too, I was avoiding identifying them in an earlier post, Intel has cheesed me off for several reasons (CPU unique identifier, I haven't forgot that, and prices), so has Nvidia, they have been stubborn with FOSS until only recently, hence Linus' well publicized rant (I love Linus, he's hilarious, in a good way), so I built an AMD FX-8350 and stuck a Radeon card in it. But that's just me, I vote with my wallet and principals.
43 • @37 Arch Upgrades in RAM Are Best Way (by Kazlu on 2014-10-22 12:00:01 GMT from France)
I wouldn't recommend to mount /var/cache in RAM. Like you said, it clears the cache at reboot time, especially the pacman cache. So if you happen to have a problem with a particular package update on your computer, if you don't have the package corrresponding to the previous verison still in your cache, which would allow you to downgrade the package until the next update, you're screwed. Given the fast rolling pace of Arch Linux, keeping some older versions of packages is safer.
This is a compromise between speed and safety: it's up to the user do decide where to put the cursor. The Arch way.
44 • systemd and Debian (by Pierre on 2014-10-22 12:11:52 GMT from Germany)
I read a lot about systemd the last couple of days. I already started to dislike it at the point where they started to take control over more and more basic system components like for example networking. Now it seems they even want to replace the virtual terminal system(s) etc...
Enough is enough.
There has to be an end to what a single daemon should be able to have control over and access to and systemd has already way too much power over the Linux system.
Additionally I started to dislike it's developers for thinking they would know every answer to every (not even asked) question.
Maybe I should really reconsider my upgrade to openSUSE 13.2 when it's released and start using PC-BSD or even plain FreeBSD.
Debian GNU/kFreeBSD could be worth a look as well. Maybe it's even the best compromise between Debian GNU userland software and the FreeBSD kernel with it's unique feature set like ZFS, Jails etc.
Additionally Debian should really revaluate their switch to systemd for their Linux based OS and go with OpenRC or some other good option instead. This would make maintaining the GNU/kFreeBSD port easier as well.
45 • Sparky Linux. Better alternatives. (by hotdiggettydog on 2014-10-22 19:24:35 GMT from Canada)
Good review on Sparky.
I've tried every release of Sparky and found it lacking. I suspect its a 12 year old's project.
Try Lite, Handy, and Lxle instead.
I've been running Lite and a clone in Virtualbox for different purposes and it has been superb. This is on a Mint host.
If I have to reinstall any operating systems in the near future it will be Lite. Not only great for older machines but fantastic on new hardware.
46 • @43 Arch Upgrades in RAM Are Best Way (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2014-10-22 20:59:56 GMT from United States)
@43 Re "if you don't have the package ... in your cache, which would allow you to downgrade ... you're screwed"
No, you are fine. I have run /var/cache in RAM for years, no problem. The claimed need is very rare but in any event, two other ways to downgrade exist.
(1) Use a third-party repo offering old packages, see Arch Wiki.
(2) Use Arch Build System (ABS). This method I think best.
Now on speed/safety, here it's a fallacy. Thrashing a disk with multi-GB of largely unused cache and risking disk-full, or blowing SSD cell life, makes a bigger threat than esoteric needs for package reversion perhaps once each few years, achievable by two independent cacheless methods.
47 • Security comparison (by D Sis on 2014-10-23 02:43:19 GMT from Australia)
Hey Jesse, maybe after you finish the rolling release test, you could do a comparison of distros using a different security method. It could give people a good heads-up on security. (P.S. I think Qubes is meant more for laptops than desktops.)
48 • @46 Arch Upgrades in RAM Are Best Way (by Kazlu on 2014-10-23 11:08:30 GMT from France)
Your first method is using third-party repo, not always a good idea. The second is fine, you should indeed get anything you want, although it would probably be more time-consuming (and I'm not talking about time needed for compilation, but about time needed for looking for information).
My suggestion would be to keep a few versions (something around 2-5 versions) of each packages and to clean the older ones with paccache in order to keep the cache size reasonable. That way you could even downgrade if your problem cost you your internet connection (ok, I admit, this must be very, very rare!). I find this easier to do, but since that's a subjective argument I will put forward another: with that method if something breaks you can revert to a version you *know* worked well enough before the problem, instead of trying something new. But you were right when you said that contributes to ruin an SSD's life, that has to be taken into consideration. Although the fact of using a rolling-release distro on a SSD itself can be discussed from that point of view.
Anyway, those solutions all have their good and bad points, good to hear different opinions, thanks for sharing them.
49 • @ 43 (by AleCon on 2014-10-23 15:24:54 GMT from Italy)
update system (pacman -Syu) reboot, check if everything is fine, then clean cache with pacman -Sc
safe( r) and easy (ier), my 0.02$
50 • About systemd (by alex.theoto on 2014-10-23 17:21:01 GMT from Greece)
Well, I see many arguments about systemd.
I believe that technology must move on. But people don't like changes.
I use Debian Sid and I understand that systemd makes system faster. Even I haven't learn how to control systemd, I think that it is matter of time to learn it just as I learned init and 'service' command.
I have some freezes here and there on gnome-shell and I don't know how to restart the session even when I type 'systemctl reload gdm...' [I don't remember the command], but I reboot the computer and I'm fine.
It's like desktop environment's war... Some like KDE, some like GNOME and so on...
This is the magic on Linux. You have many options to choose. It's up to you.
I think that Linux user have to be flexible. For example, if someone use only KDE and go to another computer witch have only lxde, he must be flexible to operate it.
51 • Evo/Lution (by SB on 2014-10-23 17:37:10 GMT from United Kingdom)
.32 You set up your countries mirrorlist during the installation.
52 • @50 Diminishing choices (by cykodrone on 2014-10-23 21:31:16 GMT from Canada)
You said "This is the magic on Linux. You have many options to choose. It's up to you."
That's the problem, systemd should be a CHOICE, not forced down anybody's throat. People are up in arms because of ambiguity and not explained blobs of code, this is out of step with the GNU philosophy. Personally I'll try it, I'm the type to give anything a chance, but any hiccups or fails that can't be easily fixed and it's gone, and so am I from any distro that uses it, that includes my donation dollars as well.
53 • @48 Arch Upgrades in RAM Are Best Way (by Arch Watcher 402563 on 2014-10-23 22:40:54 GMT from United States)
@48 The problem with this whole thread is its entirely false impression that anybody ever reverts. It's an esoteric, rare need. Cache is deadwood.
Any reversion need passes within days (from my experience). So it's just as simple to remove a package and wait a week. Then reinstall it from repos.
That ABS vid shows a trivial changing of version number. There is no information to seek. It's already in the source files.
Most reversion needs are kernel-related, so everyone should install 'linux-lts' along with mainline 'linux'. Then if 'linux' fails, LTS will work.
You can also boot an Arch installer ISO (dd'd to USB stick), and chroot from there for package fiddling on your main disk.
Third-party repos are fine and underutilized. They are more reliable than using AUR to get the same packages. I recommend xyne and arcanisrepo with its GUIs for netctl.
54 • systemd (by dawn on 2014-10-24 01:15:59 GMT from Canada)
systemd, the new userland kernel?
55 • 52 • @50 Diminishing choices (by Ika on 2014-10-24 02:36:50 GMT from Spain)
"That's the problem, systemd should be a CHOICE, not forced down anybody's throat. People are up in arms because of ambiguity and not explained blobs of code, this is out of step with the GNU philosophy."
+1! Good things are never imposed. Only the bad ones are,
56 • Debugging Distros (by Fossilizing Dinosaur on 2014-10-24 04:53:56 GMT from United States)
DebIan-Testing, Fedora, Arch - aren't these the right place to drop paradigm-changing complex code desperately needing debugging like Gnome3 and systemd? Surely it's not in DebIan-Stable yet, is it?
57 • Zoubuntu (by G Savage on 2014-10-24 12:57:47 GMT from Canada)
I'll give the Ubuntu people one thing, they're masters at marketing. They've taken the "different desktop makes a new distro" to a whole new level. Good on them.
58 • @56 - Debugging Distros (by Rev_Don on 2014-10-24 14:38:21 GMT from United States)
"DebIan-Testing, Fedora, Arch - aren't these the right place to drop paradigm-changing complex code desperately needing debugging like Gnome3 and systemd? Surely it's not in DebIan-Stable yet, is it?"
It will be in the next release. Jesse will have systemd by default. That won't preclude anyone from switching to other init systems. And that is the part that gets lost in all of the rhetoric, they aren't imposing it on anyone as the only choice, only as the default choice just like a distros default choice of desktop, browser, music player, etc. If you don't like what is included in the default install you are free to change it to something of you liking.
Instead of all of systemd is the end of the world and the sky is falling wailing we need people talking about how the individual can change to something else. That would be a better use of time, resources, and bandwidth.
The only thing that will kill systemd is systemd itself, and that will only happen when enough distros have used it long enough to be able to determine that it isn't working as well as they thought it would. The only way that will happen is if they actually ship it.
59 • systemd (by anticapitalista on 2014-10-24 15:09:31 GMT from Greece)
#58 The issue isn't whether Jessie defaults to systemd or not, but to what extent yiu can use software without systemd. For example, try running network manager without systemd on Jessie. Or hplip-gui for HP printers.
60 • systemd (by linuxista on 2014-10-24 18:16:53 GMT from United States)
I've used systemd on Arch and Manjaro for years now, and I've never had any systemd specific issues. Ever. Lost in all the complaints is that a team of developers has put a lot of work and talent into creating a very significant piece of open source software. I for one thank them for their efforts. I also see a lot of complaints about whether or not systemd works based on whether it works in Debian testing. Those are two different questions. Systemd has worked very well in other distros for years. Debian devs and users will have to take responsibility for their own ability to implement it. It seems other init options will remain in the Linux ecosystem, and people will have another basis for choosing one distro over another. Doesn't Slackware still use LILO? And maybe this is a positive outcome for the BSDs. The more popular Linux gets, the more attractive they might become in any case as an antivirus/anti-malware strategy.
61 • So is the way with most distros. (by Garon on 2014-10-24 19:01:08 GMT from United States)
I've tried to stop responding to trollish comments but yours really puzzles me. How many distros do you see that are based on Ubuntu. Sorry but that was just a strange comment.
Finally some good common sense comments. Thank you.
62 • 60 • systemd - by linuxista (by MiRa on 2014-10-24 20:03:21 GMT from Spain)
"a team of developers has put a lot of work and talent into creating a very significant piece of open source software.!
Is it really an "open source" software?
Number of Comments: 62
Display mode: DWW Only • Comments Only • Both DWW and Comments
|• Issue 581 (2014-10-20): SparkyLinux 3.5, Fedora's graphics stack, Debian and systemd, OpenBSD 5.6|
|• Issue 580 (2014-10-13): Rolling releases, Arch as best distro, GNOME on Wayland, MINIX 3.3.0|
|• Issue 579 (2014-10-06): PC-BSD 10.0.3, Debian's Jessie freeze, setting up home server|
|• Issue 578 (2014-09-29): Calculate 14, Debian's default desktop, Shellshock vulnerability, practical Tiny Core|
|• Issue 577 (2014-09-22): SymphonyOS 14.1, FreeBSD drops pkg_add, MINIX on ARM, GNU screen|
|• Issue 576 (2014-09-15): PCLinuxOS 2014.08, Mint's documentation, Debian's hardware database, CDE|
|• Issue 575 (2014-09-08): Porteus 3.0.1, Fedora's blivet-gui, Red Hat's Docker, systemd|
|• Issue 574 (2014-09-01): Ubuntu Kylin 14.04, Haiku and Linux kernel, Wayland support, Lumina, Bash completion|
|• Issue 573 (2014-08-25): SolydXK 201407, VPN gateway with FreeBSD, Ubuntu MATE, Raspbian, trusting binary packages|
|• Issue 572 (2014-08-18): ZFSguru 10.1, Fedora's Flock, beta installer for "Jessie", Ubuntu Core, rolling releases|
|• Issue 571 (2014-08-11): HandyLinux 1.6, LMDE update, default desktop in "Jessie", running out of disk space|
|• Issue 570 (2014-08-04): Neptune 4, Kubuntu's KDE Plasma 5, FreeBSD and UEFI, Linux servers|
|• Issue 569 (2014-07-28): Deepin 2014, Ask Fedora, Gentoo and LibreSSL, encrypted package downloads|
|• Issue 568 (2014-07-21): Antergos 2014.06.24, Mint based on Debian stable, upgrading CentOS, BinaryTides|
|• Issue 567 (2014-07-14): Manjaro 0.8.10, PC-BSD jails, Debian and glibc, Fedora's DNF, Xiki and Opera 24|
|• Issue 566 (2014-07-07): LXLE 14.04, OpenBSD's SimpleDE, openSUSE artwork, home security basics|
|• Issue 565 (2014-06-30): Chakra 2014.05, Fedora on BeagleBone, Matthew Miller interview, e-book readers|
|• Issue 564 (2014-06-23): Antergos 2014.05.26 and Q4OS 0.5.11, Debian LTS and glibc, Fedora DNF|
|• Issue 563 (2014-06-16): Mint 17, CentOS 7 pre-release, Debian MATE, accessing encrypted content|
|• Issue 562 (2014-06-09): GoboLinux 015, Gentoo interview, Fedora leader change, climagic tricks|
|• Issue 561 (2014-06-02): OpenMandriva 2014.0, Debian GNU/Hurd, Lubuntu and LXQt, Final Term, TrueCrypt|
|• Issue 560 (2014-05-26): KaOS 2014.04, Wayland and KDE 5 on Fedora, distros with commercial support, DenyHosts|
|• Issue 559 (2014-05-19): VortexBox 2.3, LTS-only Linux Mint, FreeBSD 11 ambitions, KDE 5 beta|
|• Issue 558 (2014-05-12): RHEL 7 Workstation impressions, LXQt and Lumina, Haiku interview|
|• Issue 557 (2014-05-05): Xubuntu 14.04, Ubuntu 14.10 roadmap, Fedora Workstation, ownCloud|
|• Issue 556 (2014-04-28): Ubuntu 14.04, LibreSSL, Lumina desktop, Deepin interview|
|• Issue 555 (2014-04-21): Robolinux 7.4.2, Ubuntu release day stats, Debian security, Porteus update|
|• Issue 554 (2014-04-14): Review of FreeNAS, OpenSSL bug, Fedora.next, Robolinux Stealth VM, measuring memory|
|• Issue 553 (2014-04-07): Puppy 5.7 "Slacko", end of Ubuntu One, file encryption with GPG|
|• Issue 552 (2014-03-31): Tanglu 1.0, Ubuntu GNOME LTS, SliTaz for ARM|
|• Issue 551 (2014-03-24): Linux Mint "Debian" 201403, call for end to proprietary firmware, LVM|
|• Issue 550 (2014-03-17): Review of NixOS 13.10, Lubuntu seeking feedback, Android-x86 4.4-rc1 impressions|
|• Issue 549 (2014-03-10): ClearOS 6.5 and UCS 3.2, Gentoo interview, Ubuntu app contest, Into the Core|
|• Issue 548 (2014-03-03): Review of Mageia 4, FreeBSD console driver, filtering web content, Pitivi fundraiser|
|• Issue 547 (2014-02-24): Chakra 2014.02, Ubuntu privacy, preventing unwanted remote logins|
|• Issue 546 (2014-02-17): Review of PC-BSD 10.0, Red Flag closure, Ubuntu and systemd, SlackE18, Fedora book review|
|• Issue 545 (2014-02-10): Impressions of FreeBSD 10.0, Debian votes systemd, Ubuntu file manager, server security|
|• Issue 544 (2014-02-03): Netrunner 13.12, openSUSE future, Ubuntu Touch in emulator, running commands in multiple places|
|• Issue 543 (2014-01-27): Review of Korora 20, FreeBSD 10.0, DNF, ZFS rescue CD, Bridge Linux interview|
|• Issue 542 (2014-01-20): QupZilla, Ubuntu with MATE, Arch on Raspberry Pi, best applications|
|• Issue 541 (2014-01-13): openSUSE 13.1 and Zentyal 3.3, CentOS joins Red Hat, Bodhi on Chromebooks|
|• Issue 540 (2014-01-06): SMS 2.0.6 and SME Server 8.0, Hawaii desktop, PHR statistics 2013, more on multi-part archives|
|• Issue 539 (2013-12-23): Centrych 12.04.3, Fedora 20 and its spins, dividing archives across multiple discs|
|• Issue 538 (2013-12-16): Mint 16 review, RHEL and CentOS 7 plans, SteamOS, Windows XP replacement suggestions|
|• Issue 537 (2013-12-09): OpenMandriva 2013.0, Gentoo developer interview, project Neon, Linux Mint and security|
|• Issue 536 (2013-12-02): Impressions of openSUSE 13.1, Ubuntu Touch, FreeBSD 10 delay, troubleshooting OS lock-ups|
|• Issue 535 (2013-11-25): GhostBSD 3.5, Debian and MATE, Ubuntu 14.04 features, security updates|
|• Issue 534 (2013-11-18): Review of OpenBSD 5.4, Fedora on ARM, menu names vs command-line names|
|• Issue 533 (2013-11-11): Point Linux 2.2, Pisi update, Debian and Xfce, Bruno Cornec interview|
|• Issue 532 (2013-11-04): Ubuntu and Kubuntu 13.10, Debian's init, FreeBSD's PKG-NG, Linux on ARM|
|• Issue 531 (2013-10-28): PC-BSD 9.2, openSUSE testing, nftables, upgrade pros and cons|
|• Issue 530 (2013-10-21): Kwheezy 1.2, DPL interview, Zenwalk's future, keeping up with vulnerabilities|
|• Issue 529 (2013-10-14): Ubuntu's Mir, dmesg and photorec tips, Tiny Tiny RSS|
|• Issue 528 (2013-10-07): Semplice 5, Haiku package management, Klaus Knopper interview, making custom distro|
|• Full list of all issues|